00:00:39 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-56-100.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:01:16 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-109-154.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:04:35 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-60-86.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:04:45 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@55.36.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:59 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-172-212.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 00:06:23 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-25-99.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:07:53 -!- ziarkaen__ [~ziarkaen@61.72.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:08:30 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.133.108] has joined #lisp 00:10:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:10:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:53 rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-217-196.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:01 PCChris [~PCChris@cpe-69-135-187-90.woh.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:06 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@55.36.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:12:16 hello I'm having trouble understanding an SBCL compiler warning. I'm sure its trivial but i'm missing it. 00:12:29 described here: http://paste.lisp.org/+2IX3 00:12:29 00:13:37 <_3b> because the function version can't tell it is a literal by the time it is modified 00:14:05 Ryan__ [~Ryan@97-113-47-216.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:05 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-140-138.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:14:15 _3b: whereas the macro can? 00:14:33 <_3b> right 00:14:35 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:14:50 HET2 [~diman@host81-149-242-213.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:55 -!- HET2 [~diman@host81-149-242-213.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:15:17 <_3b> it is the (setf aref) that notices, so it sees the literal after the macro is expanded 00:15:41 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-248.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 00:16:04 so the ,aref is literal? 00:16:13 er sorry ,array 00:16:15 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0112d3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:16:25 <_3b> "a b c c" is a literal 00:16:31 <_3b> like '(a b c) would be 00:16:35 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@cpe-69-135-187-90.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:17:14 _3b: OK, thank you for your help. 00:18:57 <_3b> (the function version is just as broken in that case, just that SBCL isn't smart enough to tell you that) 00:19:59 _3b: the warning gives the impression that I am modifying otherwise immuatable data. 00:20:25 <_3b> right 00:21:36 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:22:08 So is it telling me that this may be an issue at compile-time; Or, just saying that I shouldn't do that? 00:22:31 <_3b> it is saying your code is non-conformant if you do that 00:23:03 <_3b> i don't remember if that is one of the places where it is purely implementation dependent, or if the similarity stuff in file compilation matters 00:23:19 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.133.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:23:26 <_3b> either way, don't do that :) 00:23:45 <_3b> call copy-seq on the string if you want a modifiable copy 00:23:55 I don't want one! 00:24:18 <_3b> well, don't modify it then :) 00:25:36 I guess I mean to say... why should i care if it gets modified. 00:26:37 <_3b> well, the compiler might have stored it in read-only memory, or combined it with other similar strings, or any number of things 00:26:58 Ok, this makes sense. 00:27:24 <_3b> it could be modifying the string in the source, so it affects future runs (but doesn't have to be, so you can't rely on that either) 00:28:06 Yes, I've got it now. I should not be doing this :) Thanks Again for your help! 00:28:45 <_3b> or 00:29:05 <_3b> or the compiler could be optimizing to assume it never changes, and it won't affect things it otherwise would 00:29:20 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 00:29:24 it seems like that is what is occuring 00:29:49 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-26-67.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:30:25 -!- me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-227-60.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:41 necroforest [~jarred@pool-108-18-226-169.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:50 around `hairy-data-vector-[set|ref} in sbcl/src/compiler/generic/vm-tran.lisp 00:36:00 Can packages have circular :use statements? 00:36:21 <_3b> no, but you can add circularity after creating the packages 00:36:32 _3b: That's what's worked before 00:36:39 But I can't then just load it up 00:36:51 <_3b> see notes on clhs defpackage page 00:36:56 Sure 00:36:58 <_3b> why not? 00:37:18 -!- s1ugg0 [~chris@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: reset] 00:37:27 *_3b* isn't sure why you would want that in the first place though 00:37:43 <_3b> but i guess i don't :use much to start with 00:37:45 _3b: Good point. Lemme clarify this first then tell you my actual goal :) 00:38:11 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.4.206] has joined #lisp 00:38:42 So I should just defpackage both packages with no sub-clauses, and then programmatically use symbols from other packages? 00:39:04 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.133.108] has joined #lisp 00:39:12 seangrove: or you can use :use in all but the last of the circle. 00:39:18 and add the last link programmatically. 00:39:24 *_3b* would put as much as possible into the defpackage and only do the circularity separate 00:39:49 You can also just write p1:s1 p2:s2 for cross references... 00:40:20 pjb: I believe that's what I'm doing 00:40:34 And my actual goal... I have a db access package that I've built up, and an abstract orm package that relies on the db access package 00:41:02 The db access package should do some introspection of a class provided in the orm package to figure out the correct sql calls 00:41:06 <_3b> or possibly try to split one of the packages to break the circle 00:43:24 Frakk [~Frakk@host234-56-dynamic.49-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:44:02 Yeah, it's probably a sign that the abstraction is mixed up 00:46:00 -!- charliekilo [~charlieki@pool-96-236-149-254.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:49:43 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-26-67.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 00:50:07 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoy@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:51:31 Posterdati: a couple hours late, but ... glad you're enjoying it. 00:52:05 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Quit: home] 00:53:23 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.33] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:53:49 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas2-montreal42-3096486625.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:54:01 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-71-120.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:55:32 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp3255.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:56:11 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:56:13 -!- sellout [~greg@212.3.9.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:18 sellout [~greg@212.3.9.50] has joined #lisp 00:59:57 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-60-86.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:00:58 psyvenrix [ephemeral@124.169.69.15] has joined #lisp 01:03:57 salva_oz [~kvirc@143.Red-95-124-57.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:19 -!- wharzl [~wharzl@c-98-207-21-18.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:05:45 -!- az [~az@p4FE4FBA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 01:06:10 morphbot [~morphbot@p57B5352A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:12 -!- morphbot [~morphbot@p57B5352A.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 01:07:55 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:08:54 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.133.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:11:15 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-109-154.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:11:15 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-121.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:11:21 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-41-84.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:12:56 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-248.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:16:03 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:19:01 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:20:24 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:20:42 -!- boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:23:54 kanru [~kanru@61-228-154-25.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:22 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441862.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 01:25:24 -!- Ryan__ [~Ryan@97-113-47-216.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:34:21 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441862.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:36:37 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:26 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:25 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 01:39:31 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:40:57 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 01:42:32 boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:43:03 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host81-156-238-62.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:44:26 paul0 [~paulogeye@187.112.250.203] has joined #lisp 01:45:07 hi 01:45:15 anyone here has read the land of lisp book? 01:45:46 Genosh|Off [~Genosh@189.Red-83-37-197.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:58 -!- Frakk [~Frakk@host234-56-dynamic.49-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Frakk] 01:47:08 http://pastebin.com/1d13ppVZ 01:47:18 i don't understand why this works 01:47:21 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-71-120.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:47:36 this code defines a *edges* global variable 01:47:52 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3588.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:06 but, it isn't mentioned in the describe-path function, how can this code actually works? 01:48:19 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@189.Red-83-37-197.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:49:04 <_3b> presumably whatever calls it looks up a specific edge in *edges* and passes that to describe-path 01:50:16 (print (describe-path '(garden west door))) 01:50:37 this code works fine, but i am just passin one value that is inside *edges* 01:50:49 passing 01:51:09 <_3b> describe-path doesn't care about *edges*, it just uses the edge you pass it 01:52:02 oh, right 01:52:02 *_3b* assumes describe-location is the part that cares about *edges* 01:52:21 didn't noticed, that this function is only using the data i am passing to it 01:52:50 yeah, there's nothing abormal about it 01:53:10 -!- Genosh|Off [~Genosh@189.Red-83-37-197.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: http://quasiquote.me] 01:53:18 thanks :) 01:55:04 beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@ip174-68-69-137.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:31 s1ugg0 [~chris@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:01 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 01:57:05 *hmmm* 01:57:30 on a debian system, if i use quicklisp to install a bunch of libraries, then uninstall lisp via dpkg ... what happens to the quicklisp stuff 01:57:32 ? 01:57:48 oops sorry bad typing 01:58:17 *_3b* would expect quicklisp to be unaffected by dpkg 01:58:40 yes ... let me double check something i think i installe something for better interaction with slime ... 02:00:07 oh nm, nothing was added to emacs, that was .sbclrc, my bad 02:00:09 sorry about that 02:00:14 -!- beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@ip174-68-69-137.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: end of line.] 02:00:40 beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@ip174-68-69-137.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:00 -!- beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@ip174-68-69-137.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:01:20 beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@ip174-68-69-137.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:01:58 wgl [~wgl@209.242.26.41] has joined #lisp 02:02:48 -!- s1ugg0 is now known as sluggo 02:04:36 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:35 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 02:14:50 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:16:04 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:18:11 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 02:18:12 bulibuta [~bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 02:18:27 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:20:50 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-210-158.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:22:48 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-29.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:23:29 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-41-84.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:27:22 hello everyone. my visual common lisp thing is progressing. here's a video demo with voiceover of the UI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irf7AhjkNlo 02:27:33 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B34D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:30:02 -!- salva_oz [~kvirc@143.Red-95-124-57.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:30:14 hm 02:30:30 mapcar and apply looks to have the same functionality 02:30:48 Only if you're a blind man in a bag full of fish or something. 02:31:13 (mapcar #'+ '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) <- Do that with apply. 02:34:49 lol 02:34:58 right, it doesn't work 02:35:09 (apply #'append (mapcar #'describe-path (cdr (assoc location edges)))) 02:35:40 look like they have the same functionality in this context 02:35:53 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:36:37 Um, no. 02:37:01 well, i'm new to lisp 02:37:08 What does mapcar do? 02:37:23 mapcar applies a function to each member of a list, isn't? 02:37:59 <_3b> 'one or more lists' not 'a list', and it builds a list out of the results 02:38:28 and apply does something like this, also 02:39:20 <_3b> not very much like it 02:39:36 <_3b> there is a list involved, but that is about it 02:40:14 <_3b> apply calls the function once, passing all of the values of the list at once 02:40:29 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:33 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ukwcaezqbqueuhnr] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 02:40:37 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-tteykravyezdxrug] has joined #lisp 02:40:58 oohhh 02:41:01 righ, got it 02:41:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-25.monradsl.monornet.hu] has left #lisp 02:41:32 i love this enlightenment feeling happens 02:41:37 *when 02:45:57 _3b, Zhivago thanks for the explanation 02:47:39 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:03 -!- sellout [~greg@212.3.9.50] has quit [Quit: sellout] 02:53:20 -!- vasile [~vasile@ool-4570abc6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:53:38 -!- vasile_ [~vasile@ool-4570abc6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:58:41 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-217-196.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 03:00:59 salva_oz [~kvirc@143.Red-95-124-57.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:01 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:10:25 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:12:56 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-210-158.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:14:28 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:56 vasile [~vasile@ool-4570abc6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:56 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-tteykravyezdxrug] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 03:15:00 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-giuckqejgznacmpn] has joined #lisp 03:15:08 vasile_ [~vasile@ool-4570abc6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:31 -!- somnium [~user@184.42.0.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16:51 ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:18:02 -!- beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@ip174-68-69-137.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: end of line.] 03:22:04 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:22:13 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:23:18 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 03:25:22 ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 03:29:58 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:03 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 03:30:59 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:19 emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:38 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:53 LinGmnZ [LinGmnZ@ppp-223-24-101-2.revip6.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 03:44:45 -!- LinGmnZ [LinGmnZ@ppp-223-24-101-2.revip6.asianet.co.th] has left #lisp 03:46:26 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night!] 03:47:43 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 03:50:04 -!- emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:51:50 emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:14 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:57 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:57:45 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:58:34 -!- emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:59:02 -!- mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:39 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:12 emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:07 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-29.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:04:20 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-16-10.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:10:54 in a destructuring-bind is there special notation to ignore parts of an expression that won't be used? say you want to bind the second and third items of a list but don't care about the first 04:10:57 TheSeparateOne [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:31 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:59 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:12:20 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:11 -!- davazp [~user@3.Red-83-46-6.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:41 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:20 You can bind it and (declare (ignore whatever-the-binding-was)) 04:17:24 You might also find a name like _ useful. 04:18:11 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:19:31 yeah I'm familiar with using the underscore from haskell, but I know it's still just binding to that symbol. Does declaring the symbol as ignored just get rid of the compilation style warning? 04:20:28 Caffeine [~satanama@23-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:06 It does get rid of the warning. Whether or not it still binds it probably depends on the implementation and optimization settings, but I don't really know. 04:21:11 It might do more than that, but I wouldn't expect it to. 04:22:26 Okay thanks, it just felt sloppy to bind variables I didn't need. 04:25:04 I'm following a book introducing me to what is called "Lisp in a Box" .. I'm absolutely new to Emacs, I have followed the whole intro tutorial to Emacs.. Now I'm in SLIME's REPL inside Emacs and there's something I don't get... "CL-USER> 10" yields "10" but no new "CL-USER>" prompt. What am I missing? (And if I delete to write something new, doesn't evaluate the new expression...) 04:25:30 your RET keybinding is messed up most likely 04:25:44 There should be another CL-USER> prompt. 04:26:07 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 04:26:24 I had a similar problem when I had my return key bound to newline and indent, have you setup custom keybindings? 04:26:26 Caffeine: What lisp implementation (and operating system) are you using? 04:26:58 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:06 emef0: I didn't play with anything in Emacs... I have followed the intro tutorial, then restarted it, went to repl buffer and tried what I said. 04:27:28 rme: I'm on Win7 using Clozure Common Lisp 04:28:01 (Emacs 23.2, Clozure CL 1.5 and latest SLIME) 04:29:11 Go to your slime-repl buffer and type C-h k RET. It should say that RET is bound to slime-repl-return 04:29:20 You're probably hitting a Windows-specific bug in ccl. If you can update to the latest ccl, the problem should be gone. 04:29:37 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:22 emef0: " runs the command slime-repl-return, [...]" 04:31:56 rme: .. maybe... I know there's a risk of hang with TAB on Win 64 bits .. but that would be another problem 04:34:23 Does the lisp repl work outside of lisp? 04:34:29 outside of emacs* 04:35:42 emef0: When I run ccl-1.5-windowsx86/wx86cl64.exe it seems to work fine 04:38:49 Caffeine: You are probably hitting some sort of deadlock, as described in http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/677 and http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/696. The symptoms you describe sound like this bug. 04:44:06 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:44:15 ok... yes it looks like it, even though the circumstances are not the same... Since they are marked as fixed, I guess I could try to upgrade the CCL in the lispbox stack... I guess it's more complicated than changing the CCL directory content.. I'll just try in case 04:48:31 lol I'm cursed. It does the very same thing, but the second prompt prints.. that's one little step further. 04:50:48 Kerrick [~Kerrick@173-23-121-135.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:52:42 haha bummer, you could try another inferior lisp program, instead of ccl? I don't know which work under windows 04:53:25 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8169E3.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:54:27 Yeah, I have no idea... knowing the next version of lispbox is around, I'd stick with it since that's what the book I'm following is using... but as they say in the book itself, it's not so hard to translate commands to a slightly different environment 04:54:52 Just trying it in a VM with Linux right now... 05:00:43 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 05:00:56 Works fine... somehow the numpad isn't working right.. weird... I'll try to find another one or use the VM.... Thanks for you help both of you. 05:02:07 Numerous people successfully use ccl on Windows with Slime, but good luck with whatever you choose. 05:03:07 Yup, ccl itself seems to work fine... I'll just use it outside of lispbox or wait for the next lispbox release where they will use ccl 1.6 instead of 1.5 (which is buggy on 64-bit) 05:03:14 thanks 05:04:15 One funny random fact.. CCL publishes their work with .svn folders included.. 05:04:42 pnq [~nick@AC81273F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:04:57 We do that on purpose. That way, you can svn up to pick up fixes. 05:06:15 oh.. and it doesn't require authentification? 05:06:56 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:07:36 Caffeine: Nope. Anyone can read the svn repository. 05:07:56 Ok, great! That's certainly a good idea then! 05:11:31 how do you pronounce clozure? like closure? 05:11:45 yes 05:11:49 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-33-145.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:12:12 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-183.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:12:19 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-16-10.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:12:38 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 05:12:38 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:12:59 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:02 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 05:13:38 jleija [~jleija@c-98-200-236-23.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:29 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-210-158.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:16:42 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-204-63.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:17:19 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-204-63.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:56 -!- evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:22:17 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:22:30 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 05:25:23 laurus [~laurus@c-68-40-207-109.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:12 -!- laurus [~laurus@c-68-40-207-109.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:26:34 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-183.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:32:16 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-183.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:47:40 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Quit:] 05:50:19 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:55 ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:52:55 -!- emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:54:13 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas2-montreal42-3096486625.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:01 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-116-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:57:02 emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:41 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 05:58:02 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 06:01:53 mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:06:27 parolang [~user@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:13 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-245-93.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:21 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:12:53 lewis1711 [~lewis@222-155-162-195.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:13:41 how does one get the data type of something? looking for particular data type predicate but don't even know what I am querying 06:13:54 (type-of x) 06:14:07 (typep x 'some-type) 06:14:51 (apropos "P$") might work in implementations implementing regexps in APROPOS. 06:15:25 (apropos "P$" "CL") ; perhaps. 06:15:38 sellout [~greg@212.3.9.50] has joined #lisp 06:16:08 type-of works, thanks 06:16:16 (though ranges more questions than it answers, oh dear) 06:16:18 *raises 06:16:27 dimas [~dimas@178.120.37.2] has joined #lisp 06:16:55 lewis1711: yes. If you define types as set of values, then any value is in its own singleton. So type-of might not be too useful. 06:17:21 it's telling me all the standard arithmetic operators are CONS, except for * which is... a symbol 06:17:22 er 06:17:32 clhs + 06:17:45 Notice that they're defined as variables too. Follow the link. 06:18:07 That's where you learn the usage of quote. 06:18:23 (type-of (quote *)) (type-of (quote +)) 06:19:00 Perhaps you should go back reading some basic lisp introduction. This is covered in the very first pages usually. 06:19:27 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-33-145.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:19:44 <_3b> though if you are looking at them as operators, you might prefer FUNCTION to QUOTE there 06:20:22 <_3b> and might also be interested in FBOUNDP, SPECIAL-OPERATOR-P, and MACRO-FUNCTION 06:20:31 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has joined #lisp 06:20:32 I was about to add that too :-) 06:21:13 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:21:23 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-73-92.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:21:49 beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@ip174-68-69-137.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:32 -!- parolang [~user@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:27:22 DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:27:22 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 06:27:22 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 06:27:37 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-5-127-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:27:51 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925384990.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:29:23 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:29:52 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@222-155-162-195.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 06:31:15 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 06:32:33 rread [~rread@c-24-5-127-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:45 -!- NullUnit is now known as mindCrime 06:38:11 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-86-11.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:38:31 sunnyps [~sunnyps@133.snat-111-91-106.hns.net.in] has joined #lisp 06:41:17 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-138-151.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:33 -!- emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:45:22 -!- sellout [~greg@212.3.9.50] has quit [Quit: sellout] 06:47:11 -!- sunnyps [~sunnyps@133.snat-111-91-106.hns.net.in] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:51:32 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-138-96.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:37 Posterdati: a wine bottle tagger? or general bottle tagger? 06:53:47 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-138-151.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:54:53 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-116-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 06:57:39 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:57:53 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:59:47 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-200-236-23.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 07:05:12 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 07:07:47 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.99.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:08:19 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:08:48 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.101.51] has joined #lisp 07:12:11 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:00 az [~az@p4FE4EA8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:27 -!- beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@ip174-68-69-137.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: end of line.] 07:24:56 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.56.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:31:10 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-73-92.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:31:29 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-70-24.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:37:09 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]] 07:39:12 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.210.222] has joined #lisp 07:39:26 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:41 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.101.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:39:50 -!- paul0 [~paulogeye@187.112.250.203] has quit [Quit: paul0] 07:40:45 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.108.74] has joined #lisp 07:42:24 sunnyps [~sunnyps@62.snat-111-91-106.hns.net.in] has joined #lisp 07:45:56 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.108.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:47:07 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.107.82] has joined #lisp 07:47:35 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:51:45 sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has joined #lisp 07:56:44 -!- TheSeparateOne [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:59 daniel__ [~daniel@p50829B36.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:21 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082A321.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:02:45 TheSeparateOne [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:05 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.107.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:04:38 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.104.30] has joined #lisp 08:07:10 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81273F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:07:28 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:08:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:08:36 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 08:08:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 08:08:36 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:09:17 -!- dimas [~dimas@178.120.37.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:09:59 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.104.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:10:57 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.101.70] has joined #lisp 08:16:32 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 08:22:41 slyrus: a wine bottle tagger 08:22:49 neat 08:23:36 slyrus: bottles face to operator 08:24:06 slyrus: on the shelf, the purpose is to link particular bottle to a position on the shelf 08:24:36 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:25:04 slyrus: so shelfs have got unique code for every position 08:25:22 OK 08:25:52 one position one bottle 08:26:50 so you can store bottles has you like and you can always find them after machine has scanned them and shelfs 08:27:10 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:28:14 slyrus: my approach would use FIFO for codes: C1 | BC | C2 08:28:49 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 08:29:04 slyrus: reading a shelf code, a bottle and then again a shelf code could assign position to the bottle code itself 08:29:15 slyrus: C2 = C1 + 1 08:29:36 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:09 slyrus: so, position would be: position(BC) = C1 if C1 then C2 or C2 then C1 was read 08:30:30 what is a concise definition of a "protocol" in lisp? as in meta-object protocol 08:31:52 dimas [~dimas@178.120.37.2] has joined #lisp 08:42:21 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-248.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:47:11 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:47:46 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:48:44 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-111-75.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:49:56 ecraven: A collection of related types and (generic) functions operating on objects of those types. 08:52:25 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-71-120.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:52:25 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:52:31 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-87-22.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:53:37 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-70-24.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:53:43 -!- dimas [~dimas@178.120.37.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:55:10 -!- psyvenrix [ephemeral@124.169.69.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:00:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:01:31 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.101.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:03:05 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.106.88] has joined #lisp 09:04:48 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050068134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:28 slyrus: now I need patience to understand how to handle strings and stack (pop and push) :) 09:06:49 slyrus: my idea was to push every read code in a FIFO 09:06:51 dimas [~dimas@178.120.37.2] has joined #lisp 09:07:24 FIFO? 09:07:40 plage: yes 09:08:56 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.106.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:08:59 plage: data stack where first entered elements are the first to be fetched then :) LOL 09:09:24 Posterdati: Then it is not a stack but a queue, and we call the operation enqueue instead of pop. 09:09:38 er, instead of push. 09:10:46 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:14:43 plediii 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[~lochy@59.94.96.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:13:31 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.101.12] has joined #lisp 11:20:55 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.101.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:21:12 chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.54.246] has joined #lisp 11:21:37 plage: I use to call it a stack 11:21:55 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.108.177] has joined #lisp 11:24:07 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 11:24:30 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-76-60.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:24:55 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-32-82.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:26:26 please is there a way to convert a number inside a string in a number? 11:26:45 dfox [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-182.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:26:56 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.108.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:26:56 only integers, parse-integer 11:27:40 stassats: good! 11:28:08 stassats: I've got a string like "$01$01" and I've to convert those numbers 11:28:40 ok 11:34:12 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.25.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:34:30 stassats: string is a sequence. Isn't it? So AREF would access a single character... 11:34:47 right 11:34:55 e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:35:14 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 11:35:27 Posterdati: but not because string is a sequence, but because it's an array, AREF works on arrays, not sequences 11:35:42 see also: CHAR and ELT 11:36:23 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-237-209.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 11:36:38 stassats: same predicates as arrays? 11:36:58 Posterdati: sorry, i don't understand your question 11:37:03 carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.247] has joined #lisp 11:37:21 Frakk [~Frakk@host234-56-dynamic.49-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:38:32 stassats: sorry, I'd like to know if there are functions or macros to parse a string like "$01$01$" 11:39:19 stassats: I'm a bit lazy and I won't program a state machine to parse it :) 11:39:24 of course no 11:39:31 stassats: ah ok 11:39:39 you could use cl-utilities to split-sequence and then parse-integer the elements 11:40:01 koning_robot: ok, I'm not so advanced :) 11:40:05 Posterdati: and why did you think it can be a macro? 11:40:37 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-237-209.rice.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:41 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.254.192] has joined #lisp 11:41:31 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:42:04 stassats: if I did understand, macros are a sort of more specialized object of c/c++ macros 11:42:17 Posterdati: well, just google it. it's not advanced. I think there are some relevant examples in the common lisp cookbook 11:42:19 urandom__ [~user@p548A558D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:40 koning_robot: common list cookbook? 11:42:57 Posterdati: no, macros are macros, don't try to make any analogies with c or c++ 11:43:03 Posterdati: (parse-integer (remove #\$ "$01$01") :radix 2) 11:43:51 stassats: ok 11:43:57 tcrl: thanks 11:44:09 tcrl: I'm trying it in the repl 11:45:44 Guthur [~Guthur@host81-156-238-62.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:23 sm` [~s@78.157.1.162] has joined #lisp 11:46:45 -!- e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:46:56 tcr1: I think he meant: (parse-integer (substitute #\a #\$ "$01$01") :radix 11) 11:47:07 e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:47:19 tcr1: it won't work: (remove #\$ "$01$01$") gave me a string like "0101" that is wrong :) 11:47:31 i think Posterdati needs to read Practical Common Lisp 11:47:44 stassats: I'm reading it :) 11:47:56 Posterdati: this is your fault! You didn't specify the grammar with which these strings are to be parsed! 11:48:11 Posterdati: great 11:48:18 (substitute #\a #\$ "$01$01") --> a01a01 is better isn't it? 11:49:48 pjb: ok, first number (say 01) is the shelf number, second number is the place on the shelf 11:50:11 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:50:30 what is "shelf"? 11:50:36 I think he wants split-sequence 11:51:19 stassats: a set of planes with places for bottles on it :) 11:51:29 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.102.91] has joined #lisp 11:51:48 Posterdati: so, it's irrelevant to the format? 11:51:49 So the productions of the grammar are: ((data := "$" number data) (data := "$" number) (number := (or "0" "1" "2" "3" "4" "5" "6" "7" "8" "9" "A" "B") number) (number := (or "0" "1" "2" "3" "4" "5" "6" "7" "8" "9" "A" "B") )) ? 11:52:19 pjb: shelf number is like 00 to 99 11:52:29 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52:35 So it's an integer in bas ten. Why didn't you say so? 11:52:39 pjb: place for every shelf is the same 11:53:15 And it's always two numbers of two digits and always with the $ in the same places? 11:53:18 *stassats* gives up trying to win the competition "who could confuse Posterdati better" 11:53:42 pjb: yes they are codes from barcode labels :) 11:53:54 stassats: thanks :) 11:54:04 (let ((data "$12$45")) (list (parse-integer data :start 1 :end 3) (parse-integer data :start 4 :end 6))) 11:54:13 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-237-209.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 11:54:17 pjb: yes, clear 11:54:44 number positions are fixed 11:54:51 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:55:37 this is a crazy long discussion for parsing a simple string 11:56:06 Guthur: no, to make Posterdati realize that before doing anything, he should give a clear and precise problem statement. 11:56:31 "I've got a string like "$01$01" and I've to convert those numbers" doesn't mean anything. 11:56:38 except that you didn't clearly and precisely say that either ;) 11:56:39 -!- Frakk [~Frakk@host234-56-dynamic.49-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Frakk] 11:56:51 pjb, Phoodus: :) 11:56:59 pjb: It's good stuff, his training you to deal with people! 11:56:59 Phoodus: yes, we established all the requirements along. 11:57:00 pjb: thanks 11:57:09 *he's 11:57:17 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:57:37 Frakk [~Frakk@host234-56-dynamic.49-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:57:49 is nice to talk with you people, I always learn things :) 11:57:56 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:18 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@30.126.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:46 (defun parse-strange-numbers (string) (let ((index -1)) (flet ((parse-part () (assert (eql (char string (incf index)) #\$)) (+ (* 10 (digit-char-p (char string (incf index)))) (digit-char-p (char string (incf index)))))) (values (parse-part) (parse-part))))) 11:59:11 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:00:10 or (defun parse-strange-numbers (string) (let ((index -1)) (symbol-macrolet ((next-char (char string (incf index)))) (flet ((parse-part () (assert (eql next-char #\$)) (+ (* 10 (digit-char-p next-char)) (digit-char-p next-char)))) (values (parse-part) (parse-part)))))) 12:00:53 it's a shame cl doesn't have a standard "split" function 12:01:02 -!- HET2 [~diman@host81-149-242-213.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:01:08 there's split-sequence, de-facto standard. 12:01:19 yeah, de-facto 12:01:24 (ql:quickload :split-sequence) 12:01:49 split is bad, it conses 12:01:55 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:01:55 But since this is a fixed format, it's easier and more efficient to merely call parse-integer :start :end. 12:02:17 stassats: sometimes, performances don't matter that much. 12:02:39 I don't understand why he needs the $'s if the length is fixed 12:02:44 or consing doesn't take that much of your cpu time 12:03:26 simias: and sometimes, it matters very much 12:04:09 stassats: so we should avoid any convenience functions that are not 100% cpu and memory effective from the standard library? 12:04:15 give me the choice, I'm the programmer. 12:04:26 I know when it does and does not matter 12:04:55 that'd be great 12:05:11 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:35 simias: Give me the choice to run my program and not have stuff i don't need be required, making my image larger? 12:06:45 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has left #lisp 12:06:59 seriously? 12:07:01 -!- chittoor [~chittoor@117.204.54.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07:04 ok, nevermind 12:09:32 sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has joined #lisp 12:10:41 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-26-67.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 12:11:49 xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:33 would a macro that produces code with left over state be very bad form 12:17:53 I trying to avoid saying returns something, but that is essentially what it does 12:18:50 Can you give an example of what you mean? 12:19:01 yeah, too seconds 12:19:06 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-76-60.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:19:12 do you mean the return value of the generated body is arbitrary? 12:20:00 Phoodus, well the body produces the returned value, and example is probably best 12:20:16 it could be rewritten using a function and lambda 12:21:33 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-72-91.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:21:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117842 12:22:24 the forms are still in development so there maybe unforeseen issues in the code 12:23:42 I presume tex is a symbol passed in, to be used inside body? 12:24:16 but anyway, which is the state that you consider left-over? 12:24:41 png 12:25:12 Why do you want that macro anyway? 12:25:34 I'm not seeing any problem with png. What's your concern about it? 12:25:56 Phoodus, just wondering if left overs like that is considered bad form 12:26:06 how is it a leftover? 12:26:11 Guthur: What is left over? 12:26:33 png is returned (so to speak)? 12:26:48 Maybe I'd just being paranoid 12:26:53 right 12:26:59 why is that a problem? 12:27:22 Guthur: What i don't understand is why you want that macro 12:27:57 drdo: that example doesn't really show all use cases 12:29:06 -!- Frakk [~Frakk@host234-56-dynamic.49-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Frakk] 12:29:12 instead of (create-texture dim color-func) there would probably be create-truecolor-texture and create-grayscale-texture, both using that macro 12:29:13 I still don't understand why you call the return value a "left over", or why you think there's cause for concern about it. And I suspect others still feel the same 12:29:44 Phoodus, no problem, my mistake then 12:30:10 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 12:30:11 well, i'd rather see your issue cleared up rather than just dropped 12:30:30 drdo, the reason I created it was because I was sick of writing those those loops 12:30:48 Guthur: Sure, but that could easily be a function that takes a function 12:31:03 that'd be a lot of call overhead for large textures 12:31:04 drdo, yeah I know, i mentioned that at the beginning 12:31:15 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.14.49] has joined #lisp 12:31:25 makes sense to inline it 12:31:25 Phoodus: You can inline 12:31:36 You don't need macros to inline 12:31:54 Some implementations don't inline. 12:31:57 how can you inline a funcall to a passed lambda? 12:32:32 sellout- [~greg@195.54.148.98] has joined #lisp 12:32:58 -!- sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:58 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 12:33:19 Phoodus, as for my paranoia, I think it's just because I never really had a macro that invisibly returns something after the form 12:33:24 pjb: alas "$01$01$" is a fixed sequence, string could not be correctly formed from barcode readers since no check on the data is performed 12:33:40 Guther: "the form"? The entire return of the macro is "the form" 12:34:13 doesn't matter how much of it is macro parameters vs the macro's own additions 12:34:14 Phoodus, yeah sorry mix of terminology, I'm having trouble even describing what happends 12:34:33 Guthur: a macro takes source code and returns source code. 12:34:39 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@30.126.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:34:39 Guthur: your macro returns source code as normal. 12:34:48 Guthur: no problem. 12:35:05 it's the code it returns that is bugging me 12:35:20 Get over it. 12:35:22 does it just bug you in general, or is there anything specific? 12:35:25 Yeah, I've written macros that had a let where the let returned something like that 12:35:29 hehe, i'll try 12:35:55 Phoodus, more a niggling bug, nothing major, I can certainly get over it 12:36:09 And after this discussion I'm just going keep it and accept it 12:36:22 I'm just trying to figure out which part of it is niggling you 12:36:23 cheers for the input all 12:36:32 because "It returns a value" seems awfully odd to feel bad about 12:36:35 thanks, it was interesting 12:36:46 pjb: so it would be safe to control that strings is actually $ two digit decimal number $ two digit decimal number $ :) 12:37:11 Phoodus, astertronisticon best described it, there is a return for the let form 12:37:16 that is what was bugging me 12:37:36 as there generally are returns from let forms (?) 12:37:46 yeah, I used the exact same approach to write a macro for lambdas that could call themselves I think 12:37:50 it was a while ago 12:38:19 (labels creates 'lambdas' that can call themselves) 12:38:39 sellout- [~greg@195.54.148.98] has joined #lisp 12:38:44 yeah, I just make a macro that used labels to define a function called "this-function" 12:38:52 ziarkaen__ [~ziarkaen@87.112.169.20] has joined #lisp 12:39:12 -!- sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:12 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 12:39:24 it was my first macro 12:39:40 heh 12:39:46 good times 12:40:30 -!- Quetzalcoatl_ [~godless@cpe-75-186-5-185.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:42:20 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.14.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:45:16 sunnyps [~sunnyps@156.snat-111-91-110.hns.net.in] has joined #lisp 12:51:32 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-218.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:53:26 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 13:00:13 HET2 [~diman@host81-149-242-213.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:16 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:07:47 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:09:49 -!- xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:11:07 sellout- [~greg@195.54.148.98] has joined #lisp 13:11:14 -!- sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:11:18 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 13:14:45 makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has joined #lisp 13:15:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.91.3] 13:17:35 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@84.93.186.180] has joined #lisp 13:19:56 stassats: please take a look at: http://pastebin.com/Di4eQDjW 13:20:52 -!- ziarkaen__ [~ziarkaen@87.112.169.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:21:02 stassats: (setf *scanning* (list "$01$01$ "C01020" "$01$02$" 10)) 13:21:16 stassats: (tube-tagger *scanning*) 13:22:07 sellout- [~greg@195.54.148.98] has joined #lisp 13:22:30 -!- sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:30 -!- makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has left #lisp 13:22:30 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 13:23:01 Posterdati: It's easier to help someone who formats code conventionally. 13:23:24 Don't put close-parens on their own line like that. 13:23:35 Xach: ah ok, where then? 13:23:46 Posterdati: have you ever read anyone else's code? copy that style. 13:24:02 Xach: mmmh I understand, ok 13:25:40 Xach: next step is to understand that "C01020" is a valid code and its position is shelf 1 place 1 13:26:15 *JuanDaugherty* subverts the dominant paradigm. 13:26:57 Xach: I'm a bit scared to program a state machine to do that in lisp :) 13:27:44 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.254.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:28:17 Xach but it surely will be easy 13:29:34 posterdati: here is a good example of a DSL that you might like http://lispm.dyndns.org/news?ID=NEWS-2005-07-08-1 13:29:48 it's maybe a little bit more advanced than you need though 13:29:56 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@84.93.186.180] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:29:57 Guthur: thanks 13:30:10 the quicktime video here shows Rainer developing it http://bc.tech.coop/blog/050711.html 13:33:10 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-15-66.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:33:22 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-72-91.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:34:13 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 13:35:01 i get "Don't know how to REQUIRE STUMPWM." 13:36:27 I read the asdf documentation and set up a file in ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/stumpwm.conf with a (:directory "/home/ivan/src/stumpwm/") 13:38:05 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.254.192] has joined #lisp 13:44:39 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 13:45:06 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:54 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.82.138] has joined #lisp 13:47:33 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 13:47:52 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:47:56 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.254.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:49:16 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 13:49:45 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 13:50:17 Posterdati: your use of defvar is also completely inappropriate. 13:50:52 ivan-kanis: what CL do you use? 13:51:09 Posterdati: and the IF is questionable too. 13:52:06 rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-172-184.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:09 Xach: sbcl 13:52:16 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-172-184.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:52:46 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 13:52:51 ivan-kanis: did you load asdf first? 13:52:54 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:53:38 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 13:54:05 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 13:55:29 Xach: (asdf:asdf-version) -> "2.004" 13:56:26 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-204-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:30 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:57:58 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 13:58:04 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:58:25 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 13:58:28 i messed up my window manager so i might have missed something... 14:00:21 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 14:01:19 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75d6d8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:42 hi 14:02:01 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:25 ivan-kanis: does (asdf:find-system 'stumpwm) return anything? 14:02:38 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 14:05:36 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 14:06:08 Xach: component "stumpwm" not found 14:06:14 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:31 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 14:07:42 Xach: whoops 14:08:04 Xach: i put the wrong directory in (:directory :D 14:08:50 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.4.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:11:56 oops 14:12:28 sorry for the noise... 14:12:41 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:49 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:12:50 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:13:26 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 14:17:00 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 14:17:24 -!- HET2 [~diman@host81-149-242-213.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:18:51 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 14:22:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:29:26 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:24 *prxq* had forgotten how painful manual memory management actually is 14:31:23 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:51 Must be... almost never had to do that. I should practice it though, but how boring must that be without a real goal... 14:36:49 evhan [~evhan@76-250-39-229.lightspeed.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:14 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:37 phaer [~user@chello080108090109.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:39:18 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 14:39:24 -!- phaer [~user@chello080108090109.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 14:41:27 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75d6d8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:45:30 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:12 Kruno [dced8607@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.237.134.7] has joined #lisp 14:50:41 Hello, it is 1:50am, and so I will be brief. 14:51:25 I really want to say thanks for the resources you guys gave me yesterday. They are quite invaluable. I am 118 pages into OnLisp, and I never knew 90% of the things so far. 14:52:07 I am also really thankful for the 99 Lisp problems, I could not believe how many holes there were in my basic knowledge of Lisp. 14:52:19 Thanks again, and good night. 14:52:20 no it's not, it's only 17:52 14:52:28 -!- Kruno [dced8607@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.237.134.7] has quit [Client Quit] 14:52:58 hehe 14:53:54 I disagree, it's only 14:53 14:56:18 Genosh [~Genosh@189.Red-83-37-197.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:36 -!- benny` [~benny@i577A2B76.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:01:00 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:01:37 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.12] has joined #lisp 15:02:31 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 15:03:01 benny` [~benny@i577A21C7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:17 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 15:03:18 -!- benny` is now known as benny 15:04:08 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:04:21 qfr [void@unaffiliated/yw] has joined #lisp 15:05:08 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:05:27 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 15:05:42 (blah (sdf (sfdwef wefwe wefwe 2 "EFWE"))) ;how do I define blah such that it prints the string "(sdf (sfdwef wefwe wefwe 2 \"EFWE\"))"? I presume that requires a macro? 15:06:59 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:10 (prin1-to-string '(sdf (sfdwef wefwe wefwe 2 "EFWE"))) 15:08:32 ' is short for quote which is a macro, right? 15:08:56 So I should be able to express it in the way I suggested, no? 15:09:06 qfr: quote is a special operator, but yeah, you'd need a macro to do what you want to do 15:09:13 Ok 15:10:53 qfr: what are you trying to do? 15:11:27 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 15:11:45 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.186.81] has joined #lisp 15:11:49 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:08 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 15:13:21 francogrex [~user@109.130.72.165] has joined #lisp 15:15:19 stassats: I was trying to see how to do this in CL, there is no practical purpose, just trying to improve my Lisp 15:17:23 in sbcl i'm getting: is not a binary output stream. even I specify ... :direction :output : :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) ... doesn't help... what would be a workaround 15:18:31 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.102.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:18:31 francogrex: um...? 15:18:37 francogrex: try using the stream variable instead? 15:19:06 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.104.25] has joined #lisp 15:19:24 *Xach* is not ashamed to have made that mistake many times to help him understand what might have gone wrong for francogrex 15:21:43 lukego [~lukegorri@adsl-62-167-162-227.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:21:57 ltns my dear chaps! 15:22:22 chapth 15:24:19 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:54 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.254.192] has joined #lisp 15:28:01 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has joined #lisp 15:28:35 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441862.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29:59 -!- sid3k [~user@li140-93.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:32:06 sid3k [~user@li140-93.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:31 yo lukego! 15:33:38 how now, swiss miss? 15:33:53 hey i have a box of swiss miss hot chocolate right here 15:34:01 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:34:04 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.104.25] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:34:43 -!- sluggo [~chris@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: zZz] 15:34:59 Xach... ok but I don't see anywhere in my code that I am using the file instead of the stream (sorry if I expressed myself like an ass), the exact error message is: # is not a binary output stream 15:35:42 francogrex: then you're doing it wrong, because what you said about :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) and all, is exactly how you get it 15:35:52 just paste the code 15:36:31 http://i.imgur.com/UiuMn.jpg 15:36:33 -!- emma is now known as em 15:36:55 drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:37:33 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:38:11 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:38:42 -!- Intensity [y5LHJsYmHh@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:39:12 Hmmm.. how do I know in my c-lisp interpreter that I have been called via shebang? 15:39:40 ok here is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117844 15:40:22 I know I'm using something wrong somewhere, but can't find a workaround 15:41:17 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.100.190] has joined #lisp 15:41:52 francogrex: and how anybody is supposed to know which function is erroneous? 15:42:10 MoALTz [~no@92.8.25.126] has joined #lisp 15:42:41 francogrex: add the backtrace. 15:42:44 hm, I wonder if I can have lisppaste's style of highlighting in emacs 15:42:51 Frakk [~Frakk@host234-56-dynamic.49-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:43:57 Bronsa [~brace@host21-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:44:41 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442720.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:45:06 francogrex: in any case, i don't see any binary output streams 15:45:25 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.100.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:57 LinGmnZ [LinGmnZ@ppp-223-24-234-88.revip6.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:47:10 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.106.121] has joined #lisp 15:47:36 ok, that's all i get as a result: The program encountered a fatal error: # is not a binary output stream. 15:47:38 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:07 francogrex: so get the backtrace and add it to the paste 15:48:14 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:48:36 -!- Frakk [~Frakk@host234-56-dynamic.49-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 15:48:48 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 15:48:49 francogrex: is the code you pasted the code you're using? 15:48:59 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:59 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 15:49:03 because if it is, i don't see any binary output streams being opened 15:49:14 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-26-67.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:49:44 stassats: yes I assure you it's the code I use. I'll try to add backtrace 15:50:20 francogrex: then why doesn't it have :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8), as you initially said? 15:51:49 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.106.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:52:01 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.7-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:52:13 ok when I add that it gives this: The program encountered a fatal error: The value 256 is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) 15:52:35 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442720.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:52:45 stassats: that above is when I add :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) 15:52:56 francogrex: Why were you mistaken earlier? 15:53:10 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.100.75] has joined #lisp 15:53:37 Xach: because I used it once without adding the element type and the other time after adding but as you see i don't get results 15:54:16 you won't get anywhere if you'll try adding random pieces of code here and there 15:57:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@87-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:01:58 Bronsa_ [~brace@host21-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:02:00 Uh I've just been bitten by (substitute ), I would have expected (substitute ), "substitute with in " 16:02:21 -!- Bronsa_ [~brace@host21-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:02:24 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host21-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:42 Bronsa [~brace@host21-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:03:38 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:06:38 "subtitude for in " 16:07:45 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.161.218.84] has joined #lisp 16:07:45 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442720.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:07:50 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117845 with backtrace. thanks 16:07:55 stdDoubt [~ptiago@a79-169-113-74.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 16:11:07 in lisp functions should be defined in the source before being called? for example (defun a () ...) (defun b () ...) (defun c () (a) (b)) 16:11:27 stdDoubt: I find it helpful to write things that way, but it's not required. 16:11:38 Depends on how you want to use it 16:12:19 if you want to (load ) the source you might have to put definitions before their uses 16:12:52 what do you mean tcr1? I am asking because when I am writing a macro I am getting the error that a certain function is not defined (but it is defined in the source file) 16:12:57 Yeah, SBCL will give you style warnings in that case  CCL won't, as long as the functions are defined somewhere within that file. 16:13:07 stdDoubt: macros are different. 16:13:10 stdDoubt: You're probably looking for EVAL-WHEN 16:13:34 sellout: Makes script no fun to use at all 16:13:35 -!- lukego [~lukegorri@adsl-62-167-162-227.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: lukego] 16:13:45 sellout: sc 16:13:59 sellout: sbcl won't give style-warning when compile-filing 16:14:15 he was responding to my earlier comment 16:14:21 stassats: To be clear, I was commenting on the LOAD with defuns  not macros. 16:14:38 stassats: Right  I was talking about the LOAD case that tcr1 mentioned. 16:15:04 and I mean stdDoubt, not stassats in that first one. 16:15:52 stdDoubt: functions should be defined before you can call them 16:16:07 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 16:16:30 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:16:59 The function is defined before the macro but I get ther error telling that the function is not defined...I am looking to eval-when right now 16:17:23 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:17:29 stdDoubt: Yeah, you need EVAL-WHEN, or to define the function in a separate file that gets loaded first. 16:18:22 -!- LinGmnZ [LinGmnZ@ppp-223-24-234-88.revip6.asianet.co.th] has left #lisp 16:18:31 stdDoubt: it's not defined until it's LOADed, or if you use eval-when 16:20:38 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:20:51 lukego [~lukegorri@adsl-62-167-162-227.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 16:21:42 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:21:55 francogrex: I can't help. Too complicated. 16:22:17 Xach: ch;tc 16:22:56 Xach: jolly good. How is life for you in the northern extremes? :) 16:23:18 woah, lukego! 16:23:26 ltns :) 16:23:31 you're in Sweden? 16:24:00 Yep  should be on my way back home now, but London isn't coöperating. Saw you're back in Zurich. 16:24:41 Xach: ok. just a remark I noticed that in ECL it works ok. The "problem" is only observed in sbcl 16:24:46 lukego: warmed by the server testing quicklisp builds! 16:24:58 francogrex: perhaps ecl is more forgiving of lies to the compiler 16:25:07 Xach: I think so 16:25:18 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 16:25:37 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:25:39 francogrex: so now you might have silently incorrect results. 16:26:35 sellout: yes home sweet Zurich. spent the whole year in Malaysia and UK. was fun but nice to be back :) 16:26:41 ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has joined #lisp 16:27:14 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:27:15 possible, but so far, with the tests i've done it looks ok. I'll certainly have to fix this. I want sbcl to be 'very happy without any complaints" about my program 16:29:13 sellout: why Sweden btw? 16:29:36 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:29:40 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:02 lukego: Lisp clients are here, spending a few days in a sort of mini-conference with all the interested parties. 16:30:30 Would have made it a longer EU trip, but gotta get to California for family Christmas stuff. 16:33:07 nimred [nimred@unaffiliated/nahra] has joined #lisp 16:33:46 I surrounded the macro body with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ... macro body ...) . When I compile the macro alone I get no error but if I try to compile a function that calls the macro I get the error stating that a function called inside the macro is not defined 16:33:56 what is the issue here? 16:34:44 you should've surrounded the function the macro calls 16:34:49 not the macro 16:35:00 hello. Is that channel also for emacs lisp ? 16:35:08 nimred: no. 16:35:08 nimred: yes, #emacs 16:35:36 stassats: nobody is able to answer in #emacs 16:36:11 like (defun function-used-by-macro () (eval-when () ...)) or (defmacro m () (eval-when () ...))? I used the second form 16:36:40 stdDoubt: bloody no! 16:37:19 (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (defun the-function-used-by-the-macro () ...)) 16:37:53 for all the functions used by the macro correct? 16:38:07 stdDoubt: You can put them all in the same eval-when form. 16:38:28 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.72.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38:31 thanks 16:39:25 cerebral_monkey [berkley@c-66-177-48-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:16 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:48:23 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:51:19 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.82.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:43 -!- sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has quit [Quit: sellout] 16:57:58 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.100.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:59:28 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.98.55] has joined #lisp 17:00:01 cowhm [~Android@170.sub-174-253-128.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:15 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:08 -!- e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:03:34 _3b: I see from this post that you've done some html5 work with CL? http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com/2010/07/update-2010-international-lisp-games.html 17:03:54 How does the slime support work for parenscript? 17:04:16 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:42 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 17:05:10 vanilla slime has nothing for parenscript 17:05:59 stassats: Yeah, and I don't see how the two can go together given parenscript's nature, but the claim on that post piqued my interest :) 17:06:29 everything can go together, if you apply some SMOP 17:07:49 well, or even better, if someone else has already applied it ;) 17:09:13 smop? 17:09:33 small matter of programming 17:12:01 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:34 Still, I'll certainly be curious to hear from |3b| about it 17:16:16 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:48 -!- horze [~kim@c-740972d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 17:25:37 -!- az [~az@p4FE4EA8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 17:29:26 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:30:26 paul0 [~paulogeye@187.112.250.203] has joined #lisp 17:31:43 npoektop_ [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 17:35:51 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:35:51 -!- npoektop_ is now known as npoektop 17:44:58 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-204-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:27 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 17:48:23 DocOnDev_ [~doc@cpe-24-166-73-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:26 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 17:55:59 -!- DocOnDev_ [~doc@cpe-24-166-73-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:37 sellout: please detour via Zurich next time, I owe you couchsurfage :) 18:01:02 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@89.83.137.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:39 how can I enforce that a macro only be used in a :compile-toplevel context ? 18:03:17 <_3b> can't you just expand to eval-when? 18:03:41 Yay, my 770 LOC scheme interpreter can do ``(define fact (lambda (n) (if (<= n 1) 1 (* n (fact (- n 1))))))'' ``(display (fact 15))'' :-) 18:05:12 <_3b> and in case anyone in this channel was curious about the answer to seangrove's question, https://github.com/3b/slime-proxy is what i use for slime+parenscript stuff 18:06:25 <_3b> which talks to the lisp connected to slime, and for some buffers uses parenscript running on that lisp to compile things, then sends them across a websocket connection to be evaluated in a browser 18:06:34 Xach: I must admit I haven't yet understood what QuickLisp is, but I have at least gathered that it's all the rage :) 18:08:56 Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.56.236] has joined #lisp 18:09:53 lukego: it's like lisp, but quick 18:09:54 dimas [~dimas@178.120.37.2] has joined #lisp 18:11:09 s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:11:11 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:44 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:15:34 also, raging 18:15:39 Xach: but would Dijkstra like it? 18:20:14 -!- sunnyps [~sunnyps@156.snat-111-91-110.hns.net.in] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:20:31 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:23:36 DocOnDev [~doc@cpe-24-166-73-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:44 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:51 btw, here's my node-js based swank backend for browsers: http://github.com/ivan4th/swank-js for cases when one can't use parenscript 18:28:52 lukego: quicklisp is clbuild for mortals 18:30:11 -!- vasile [~vasile@ool-4570abc6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:30:55 -!- vasile_ [~vasile@ool-4570abc6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:32:31 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host21-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:33:29 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.56.236] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:33:44 stassats: quick but not dirty! 18:34:55 dirtylisp 18:34:57 I'd buy that 18:35:56 simias: you don't have enough with the sexps? 18:36:22 heh, never enough 18:36:38 sex peas 18:37:22 vasile_ [~vasile@ool-4570abc6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:22 vasile [~vasile@ool-4570abc6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:28 how to ignore a value loop .... collect ? 18:39:49 <_3b> loop ... unless ignore collect ...? 18:40:32 *_3b* should probably have distinguished the loop keyword UNLESS from the arbitrrary lisp form IGNORE there 18:41:17 thanks 18:42:18 Either i'm really dumb or you have just trolled each other so hard that it made sense 18:42:26 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 18:43:11 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:45 <_3b> drdo: (loop for i from 0 to 10 unless (oddp i) collect i) for a concrete example 18:43:50 Kerrick [~Kerrick@97-125-175-248.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:09 good morning #lisp 18:44:17 _3b: what about it? 18:45:42 slyrus: Hardly morning at 18:45 :) 18:46:07 <_3b> drdo: that assumed your last comment was about what i was saying, but i suppose it might make more sense to have been about the sexp stuff :) 18:47:29 _3b: It was about what stdDoubt asked and you answered, it made no sense to me, any of it 18:48:13 -!- dimas [~dimas@178.120.37.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:48:31 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]] 18:48:39 <_3b> drdo: ok, i interpreted the first question as asking how to skip collection of a specific value in LOOP, and replied overly tersely, then tried to clarify 18:49:09 I thought stdDoubt was trolling 18:49:23 And then thought you tried to troll back 18:49:28 no I was not trolling 18:49:58 <_3b> drdo: nah, i think we were both just communicating poorly :) 18:50:20 :) 18:51:01 or just compactly 18:54:59 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@122.161.218.84] has quit [Quit: See you in another life.] 18:55:59 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@97-125-175-248.desm.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:57:31 _3b, what is the file format of README.md in slime-proxy 18:57:57 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:58:12 <_3b> Guthur: markdown presumably 18:59:03 <_3b> yeah, looks like it 18:59:08 oh yes it seems to be 18:59:16 never heard of it before 18:59:42 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 18:59:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 18:59:42 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:59:58 it makes for nice readme files on github 19:01:04 <_3b> yeah, they support a few of the 'still readable as plain text' markups 19:01:32 <_3b> https://github.com/github/markup#readme 19:03:17 Bronsa [~brace@host21-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:04:24 dimas [~dimas@46.56.228.43] has joined #lisp 19:16:36 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:17:12 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host81-156-238-62.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:18:16 sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has joined #lisp 19:20:11 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29:08 nmg [~nickga@dsl78-143-210-236.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:30:01 -!- dimas [~dimas@46.56.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:30:58 jeti [~user@62-87-81-184.red-acceso.airtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:59 mathrick: responded to your reddit questions :) 19:31:26 dto: great, will read :) 19:31:50 okey :) 19:31:50 dto: also I wanted to ask, what do you do for living now? Since I don't expect you get any income from your lisp gaming (or do you?) 19:32:14 i'm unemployed. 19:32:19 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.98.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:33:39 mathrick: this UI is going not just on top of ordinary cl stuff, but also the 9kloc game engine i've developed since 2006. 19:34:13 dto: you should measure the number of top-level sexps 19:34:16 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.97.84] has joined #lisp 19:34:31 the goal is to cover the engine's functionality with both visible blocks and plain coding, and allow a mix of styles. for example someone can write their whole game in lisp and just use the UI for map editing and asset management. 19:34:40 mathrick: http://dto.github.com/notebook/iosketch.html 19:34:46 mathrick: showing more info 19:34:52 Quadrescence: yes i agree 19:35:14 Quadrescence: wait, what do you mean 19:35:29 tcr2 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:36 the number of sexps in a file, excluding nested ones. 19:37:15 _3b: whoa, just found your nick in the land of lisp errata 19:37:37 in which file? 19:37:46 _3b: famous! 19:37:47 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:38:18 Xach: hah, and i've seen your nick in the Practical Common Lisp also, you wrote a comment about the book 19:38:27 *Xach* famous! 19:38:31 lol 19:38:50 speaking of lispers in print , someone in UK published a print version of the Orgmode manual, which i wrote a chapter of :)) 19:39:01 Saw that too loll Xach is a celebrity!!! 19:39:16 quickcelebrity 19:39:20 (powered by Common Lisp) 19:39:23 back shortly 19:39:47 right, the page 97 of Land of Lisp is really full of bugs 19:39:54 there is at least three there 19:40:06 *Caffeine* just ordered that book >.< 19:40:10 they should at least fix the PDF 19:40:35 Feel free to share the mistakes you've found... ;) 19:40:38 Caffeine: i expect to see bugs in the printed book, but the PDF could be fixed easily 19:40:57 Caffeine: http://landoflisp.com/errata.html 19:41:01 paul0: that's right... it's no big deal to "re-publish" a PDF 19:41:04 look at the page 97 19:41:51 there are pretty serious bugs there, that affect the program functionality 19:42:01 oh nice, I'll correct the book as soon as I get it 19:42:02 i mean, the code just doesn't work 19:42:31 i must say i am pretty famous, just not famous enough for Xach to call me famous 19:42:32 According to their comment, it depends on implementation... but yeah, that's wrong :S 19:42:34 http://landoflisp.com/errata.html 19:42:54 perhaps Barski should adopt the beta ebook method, Pragmatic Programmers always do this 19:43:25 paul0: you make it sound like errata are uncommon 19:43:27 oh, sorry, someone already said that 19:43:37 Quadrescence: you can call Xach on a duel, then you'll find out who's more famous 19:43:58 stassats: Xach has quicklisp and vecto. I have ... nothing ._. 19:44:03 Quadrescence: sorry, sometimes erratas happen. But the beta ebook helps authors to publish books without errors 19:44:25 Yeah, this errata is of very reasonable size IMO... I've already spent a whole evening correcting another book... there was an error each 10 pages or something like that -_-' 19:44:36 paul0: knuth-style, paying money for errata, makes one more keen not to print errors :) 19:45:26 11 errors is nothing for a 400+ page book 19:45:46 it is a awesome book, but this errors are really annoying 19:46:01 i mean, my code simply doesn't work 19:46:08 also, i find there is another error, not mentioned there 19:46:23 submit it!! you'll be famous too 19:46:24 paul0: submit it, and you can join the hall of fame! 19:46:24 do not err only those who do nothing 19:46:28 loll 19:46:43 in the fixed code i found in the errata, it threats "lit" as a function 19:46:51 (lit (cons item (tweak-text rest nil lit))) 19:47:10 i'm new to lisp, but the first item in a list should be a function, righr? 19:47:13 right? 19:47:15 paul0: no 19:47:34 if you look closer, you'll find that it's inside COND 19:47:38 i'm getting this error here: *** - EVAL: undefined function LIT 19:47:39 you're in a cond... can be a predicate 19:47:54 hm, so there is something wrong with my parenthesis 19:48:31 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@189.Red-83-37-197.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:49:02 Genosh [~Genosh@189.Red-83-37-197.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:22 Xach: no, it wasn't a error :( 19:49:23 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:49:38 Xach: no hall of fame to me 19:49:51 paul0: submit an errata for your brain, be famous to yourself 19:50:08 can you recomend me some lisp interpreter? 19:50:20 sm`: SBCL is a fine common lisp environment 19:51:12 maybe Franz will send me a free professional edition of their product for the holidays. 19:51:46 sm`: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/lisp-answers/ has some nice info. 19:54:15 nice, it is working now 19:54:44 thanks Xach, I'll try it 19:54:49 lispers use a lot of recursion, there is no limit in lisp recursion level? 19:55:03 paul0: I don't think that's true, and there is a limit. 19:55:37 i don't think i've seen any iterative function in Land of Lisp 19:55:53 recursion is iterative 19:56:04 I haven't read Land of Lisp, but if it uses recursion exclusively, I don't think that's typical Common Lisp style. 19:56:06 -!- jeti [~user@62-87-81-184.red-acceso.airtel.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:57:19 limetree [~hi@c-0be9e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:57:42 it doesn't, it even has a nice chapter on loop. with a periodic table! (with at least one bug therein, too) 19:58:03 lol 19:58:16 he should really republish the ebook, at least 20:00:06 nah, people read it for the comics anyway :) 20:00:30 comics are fun, bug errors are really annoying to lisp newcomers 20:00:48 Here's a much better errata (hah) http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~thc/clrs-bugs/bugs-3e.php 20:02:55 paul0: the sooner you learn how to fix bugs, the better 20:03:05 kclifton [~kclifton@S01060026f32c2837.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:39 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:49 stassats, i'll fix bugs, when i understand the lisp 20:03:58 paul0: Maybe don't buy first editions then. 20:04:20 i'm emailing Barski now, asking if is possible to republish a fixed ebook (did anyone already did this?) 20:04:53 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 20:05:19 If it's really true that the code contains many bugs  isn't the nice thing about Lisp that you can test stuff so easily? 20:06:24 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.186.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:07:22 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 20:07:59 kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:12 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-237-209.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: plediii] 20:08:29 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:29 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:15 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 20:12:51 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 20:14:00 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 20:14:47 -!- limetree [~hi@c-0be9e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:15:13 limetree [~hi@c-0be9e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:17:19 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-233-195-101.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:17:20 tempace [~ace4016@adsl-233-195-101.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:26 -!- tempace is now known as ace4016 20:19:11 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:19:15 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925384990.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:48 -!- DocOnDev [~doc@cpe-24-166-73-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:03 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@S01060026f32c2837.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:12 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:32 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:27:17 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 20:32:36 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:37:01 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:42:18 timor [~timor@port-92-195-104-50.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:57 lispm [~lispm@f054055228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:49:13 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:04 how does cl-typesetting relate to LaTeX? Are there complementary packages to add the needed extra constructs? 20:50:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:51:04 rnm [~oftefs@dynamic-adsl-94-34-135-144.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 20:51:46 madnificent: cl-typesetting is PDF, no? 20:52:11 madnificent: Or do you just mean, how does it compare in terms of expressivity? 20:52:11 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:52:29 -!- rnm [~oftefs@dynamic-adsl-94-34-135-144.clienti.tiscali.it] has left #lisp 20:52:43 sellout: expressivity 20:52:55 sellout: I generally render to pdf afterwards either case 20:53:38 cl-typesetting seems to compare itself to TeX, but not to LaTeX... I don't know if that's intentional or not (and I've never worked with raw TeX either) 20:54:54 madnificent: You may also look into http://www.cliki.net/Exscribe  written by Fare. I haven't used either enough to really say. 20:55:14 I only know LaTeX, I am frequently upset by how it's not a proper scripting language 20:55:20 -!- cowhm [~Android@170.sub-174-253-128.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: AndroidIrc Disconnecting] 20:55:45 Maybe it would be best to only generate it programmatically 20:55:55 qfr: which one? 20:56:06 You mean which flavour? 20:56:16 I used BiBTeX I think, if that's what you mean 20:56:24 qfr: no, are you talking about cl-typesetting, or about Exscribe? 20:56:41 Neither :o I was talking about LaTeX 20:56:48 sellout: I'm actually looking to use it for various purposes, not limited to documentation (I also intend to use it for slides for instance) 20:57:03 qfr: ah, that's why I'd want to move to something like cl-typesetting 20:58:27 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-204-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:56 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:00:34 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 21:00:35 Cowhm [~sellonc@40.120.124.24.cm.sunflower.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:37 TheSeparateOne [~jeffrey@ip72-207-124-108.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:46 I also wondered about cl-typesetting's documentation. It seems to be sparse, to say the least 21:05:10 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:06 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:09:05 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:36 zakwilson [~quassel@chat.qniformchat.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:54 There was a blog post from a well-known Lisper a while back about why CL conditions are better than exceptions. I am not strong with the Google today - can someone point me to it? 21:11:24 zakwilson: PCL has a chapter on that 21:11:29 zakwilson: http://danweinreb.org/blog/what-conditions-exceptions-are-really-about perhaps 21:11:41 zakwilson: perhaps you may want to read Kent Pitman's paper too? 21:11:56 -!- sellout [~greg@195.54.148.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:12:01 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html 21:12:09 Xach: I was just there, that's not the post I was thinking of. 21:12:15 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:36 Nor was it the PCL chapter. 21:17:48 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.97.84] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:17:48 -!- nmg [~nickga@dsl78-143-210-236.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:17:48 -!- benny [~benny@i577A21C7.versanet.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:17:48 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:17:48 -!- araujo 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21:35:21 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 21:37:15 -!- lispm [~lispm@f054055228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:35 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:39:53 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:41:01 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 21:42:42 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:28 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host21-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:43:31 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-178-72.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:33 -!- _death is now known as adeht 21:44:35 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-138-96.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:09 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 21:50:18 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 21:52:02 How do I know where my slime-contrib directory is? 21:52:10 -!- stanrifkin [~rifkin@pD954C0C7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:29 why do you need to know? 21:53:01 <|3b|> does slime support putting contribs anywhere else? 21:53:05 https://github.com/3b/slime-proxy tells me to install some symbolic links in there 21:53:22 |3b|: anywhere in load-path 21:54:36 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.217.255] has joined #lisp 21:55:37 sb-profile is triggering CONTROL-STACK-EXHAUSTED-ERROR. Is there a good solution for that or is that just the nature of the beast? 21:56:06 *|3b|* should probably figure out how to update those instructions so it doesn't need the symlinks, and doesn't always try to load it 21:57:12 |3b|: you can just tell to add it to load-path and then require 21:57:19 or you can use auto-loading 21:58:08 you can add it to slime-setup if it's on load-path, no? might have to use define-slime-contrib 21:58:47 <|3b|> tcr2: current instructions put it in slime-setup, but that is a bit annoying 21:59:15 <|3b|> it has some big dependencies like iolib, takes a while to startup after an sbcl upgrade :) 21:59:26 sellout- [~greg@212.3.9.50] has joined #lisp 21:59:58 rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:07 <|3b|> also doesn't work on all the lisps i might want to use yet, so more reason to not load by default 22:01:30 stanrifkin [~rifkin@pD954C0C7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:02:23 hello, i am new to lisp and i wonder how the implementation process is going on 22:02:42 do i have always to reload a file that i changed via (load "file.lisp")? 22:02:50 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:02:50 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 22:03:08 if you're living in the stone age, yes 22:03:30 i use clisp... and scite at the moment 22:03:31 but if you're using a proper editor, you just press some keys 22:03:39 i recommend Slime 22:04:11 thats is an emacs addon or? 22:04:37 why do all lisp programmers use emacs? 22:04:53 because it's written in emacs lisp? 22:05:06 i hate these ctrl alt shortcuts... 22:05:29 and i don't like the word "addon", slime is a program written in emacs lisp 22:05:29 ok... 22:06:11 is there a way to pass (load "file.lisp") into clisp 22:06:23 then i can write a macro for scite 22:06:49 what do you mean by "pass"? 22:07:15 stassats: hi, what's up? 22:07:30 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050068134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:07:51 Posterdati: hello 22:08:08 *madnificent* uses inkscape instead of trying to figure out how cl-typesetting works exactly 22:09:02 stassats: so it loads the file automaticly in clisp withouth leaving clisp 22:09:20 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-150-51.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:38 stanrifkin: i don't understand your question then, because (load "file.lisp") does exactly that 22:09:54 stassats: #lisp make me recall "Ghost in the shell" anime series :) 22:09:54 he wants to know how he can make that happen from his text editor 22:10:23 Posterdati: i haven't seen it 22:10:43 stassats: :) 22:11:22 stassats: but i think in emacs you have two windows - am interpreter windows and the source code window - so when you save the source code it is in the interpreter with all the changes automaticaly 22:11:32 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-178-72.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:11:57 stanrifkin: i can't really understand your terminology 22:12:10 stanrifkin: SLIME handles all the communication between Emacs and the Lisp implementation 22:12:46 ok 22:12:55 <|3b|> stanrifkin: with slime i think it is more common to just reload the form that was changed, not the whole file 22:13:00 stanrifkin: That obviously doesn't exist for SCITE and I have no idea what the protocol is to communicate with a running Lisp without it. 22:13:47 stanrifkin: are you reading "praise for practical Common Lisp"? 22:13:52 stanrifkin: But, I know that some things exist for vi to do something similar. 22:14:16 <|3b|> does anyone know if abcl or ecl has a better name for NaN than (/ 0 0.0)? 22:14:36 Posterdati: i get "land of lisp" today 22:14:39 emef0 [~user@c-67-183-86-245.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:09 stanrifkin: Emacs + SLIME is really awesome and you might wanna consider giving it a shot. 22:15:28 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:39 austinh: i will search for the vim solution - i dont like emacs really 22:15:47 A huge portion of what I love about working with Lisp is due to Emacs + SLIME. 22:16:06 emacs really is the worst editor 22:16:15 except for all the others, sadly 22:16:30 I hated vim and emacs the first several times I was forced to use them 22:16:33 i bet if slime behaved all the same, but had no label "Emacs" on it, no one would complain 22:16:36 stanrifkin: That's too bad. You should at least investigate what SLIME offers. Maybe watch one of the SLIME videos. 22:16:49 Now my hands feel all shaky when I go through emacs withdrawals 22:17:09 austinh: good hint with the videos... 22:17:13 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:17:14 http://landoflisp.com/ 22:17:17 lol 22:17:21 :) 22:17:33 where the hell is minion and when will it be back? 22:17:48 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:18:00 -!- sellout [~greg@212.3.9.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:18:00 stanrifkin: http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 22:18:13 and where is nyef, for that matter? 22:18:14 stanrifkin: For instance, you are talking about (load "file.lisp"). With slime, you can just hit a keystroke after any expression and have it immediately evaluated in your running Lisp. You can build programs incrementally that way. 22:18:43 stanrifkin: And there are other great features to inspect your running environment, debug, etc. 22:18:47 you can even use menus for that, oh dear 22:19:36 Disregarding it because you don't like Emacs is premature. 22:19:42 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 22:19:42 and spare your ctl and alt keys 22:20:35 |3b|: I don't think ABCL does, but if it's really important, I can add it. 22:20:40 what's your usecase? 22:20:48 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 22:20:57 to answer further your question, why are people using emacs, because using lisp it can be modified to your liking 22:21:09 and you can be extremely productive with it 22:21:40 stassats: what that green monster with hundred eyes stands for? 22:21:46 <|3b|> ehu: doesn't really matter, since it is just getting wrapped anyway, but if there is one already, might as well use it 22:21:51 Posterdati: how should i know? 22:22:12 stassats: http://landoflisp.com/ 22:22:41 Posterdati: i didn't draw it 22:23:06 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 22:23:12 actually, i happened to know, but it's strange that the question was directed to me in particular 22:23:17 the answer: http://www.lisperati.com/logo.html 22:23:19 |3b|: I can't find it. Our own sources use Float.isNaN() 22:24:00 netytan [~netytan@host81-141-55-130.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:01 stassats: lol it's a logo 22:24:17 <|3b|> ehu: i mean to create a NaN, not detect one, supposedly sys:float-nan-p is the way to detect them 22:24:28 right. 22:24:34 it is. 22:24:50 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:25:06 I see after hunchentoot starts, the repl is back there to allow interaction. Is this the normal development flow? you change things while it runs without restarting? 22:25:17 Genosh: yes! 22:25:30 <|3b|> ehu: does it support 1f+-0 reader syntax? 22:25:57 How does this relate to adding new files to a project? and more specifically, can i start huncheentoot without a repl and connect to it back later? 22:26:14 you can 22:26:27 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.217.255] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:38 |3b|: as opposed to what? I mean, it supports 0.0d0; 0.0f0; and the other 2 22:26:47 I think i'm in need to a "this is the usual development flow" tutorial. 22:26:47 but that's not what you're asking, is it? 22:27:03 <|3b|> ehu: that specific syntax is a NaN on a few lisps 22:27:13 Genosh: have you seen http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov ? it's not about huncheentoot, though 22:27:18 <|3b|> the +-0 exponent part 22:27:32 Genosh: I start Hunchentoot is a screen session on my server and I connect to it remotely via swank. 22:27:49 <|3b|> they also do 1f++0 and 1f--0 or something like that for inifinities i think 22:27:55 stassats: yes (i use vim though, the shortcuts are somewhere deep in my brain and can't get them off me) 22:28:04 sorry "in a screen session" 22:28:16 ah. 22:28:19 no, 22:28:36 ++0, --0 and the other variations don't work. 22:28:43 they're recognized as tokens. 22:28:47 <|3b|> ok, just checking 22:28:49 not as floats. 22:28:54 Genosh: you only think that you can't 22:28:58 between org-mode and slime, it's usually enough to convert a vim user. 22:29:14 *|3b|* will just go with (/ 0 0.0) 22:29:33 Fade: yes, i've took a look at both and they seem really amazing, it's been years of vim though so it's hard to adapt. 22:29:37 stanrifkin1 [~rifkin@pD954C0C7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:29:37 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-28-188.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:30:05 Genosh: have you tried, or you're only making conjectures? 22:30:07 dto: finally got around to reading your reply properly and asking more stupid questions :) 22:30:17 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-15-66.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:22 -!- stanrifkin1 [~rifkin@pD954C0C7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:30:23 with such a base utility as your editor, the conversion ramp is usually steep and painful for a couple of days. 22:30:24 i've used vim before too 22:30:27 mathrick: oh cool. i'll peek 22:30:44 mathrick: i often don't present what i'm doing properly 22:30:48 so the criticisms are helpful 22:30:54 stanrifkin1 [~rifkin@pD954C0C7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:31:01 and i heard of many people coming to emacs after tens of years of vi 22:31:06 stassats: I tried but i admit i didn't put that much effort into it being frustrated by the slow relearning of things i'm used to in vim. 22:31:09 when i switched over from vim (used for a couple years) I bound a lot my emacs keys to emulate vim; like hjkl for movemnent, 'o' for new lines, etc. 22:31:13 -!- stanrifkin [~rifkin@pD954C0C7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:31:17 but emacs really is the interface for lisp. nothing else outside the lispmachine comes close. 22:31:40 Genosh: you won't learn anything new with such attitude 22:31:44 dto: nah, I'm quite sure it's more about the day only have 24h and it being WIP rather than anything you did particularly wrong in your presentation 22:31:45 the ramp-up pain is really worth the cost. 22:31:57 what's wip 22:32:06 Work In Progress 22:32:13 ah :) 22:32:34 it's also a bit schizophrenic because the engine is relatively mature, while the UI is rough and new 22:32:52 dto: I'm just erring on the side of scepticism because I've seen block UIs before and they usually tried to be all-encompassing while also pretending they weren't making people programmers, which is Just Wrong 22:33:04 usually i make the video after hours of hacking late at night and it's the dregs of my energy 22:33:04 dto: that's a sane development progression, imo 22:33:11 Fade: :) 22:33:34 so I'm asking probing questions about things I would / wouldn't want to see in whatever tool I'd consider using 22:33:46 mathrick: yes, I want to do something more like Squeak Morphic. in fact i have the new Squeak 4.1 open in another window and i'm going to spend some time playing with it tonight. 22:34:10 dto: I'm not familiar with Morphic, can you describe it in a few words? 22:34:18 or should I just google? 22:34:25 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:34:26 dto: are you the IOSketch developer? or am I following your convo wrong? 22:34:33 he is 22:34:43 mathrick: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1285 22:34:54 ah, i saw the video on reddit last night - very cool 22:34:57 wait, wrong link 22:35:00 emef0: :) thank you 22:35:01 dto: interesting, I googled http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/30 22:35:04 oh 22:35:20 stassats: I just ask to you, for not a particular reason... :) 22:35:29 http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1003 mathrick that's the one with bullet points on what morphs are 22:35:40 Posterdati: it's better to ask everyone 22:35:52 all the ui stuff i've written in the last few years has been very influenced by squeak morphic. 22:36:08 stassats: uh sorr 22:36:23 when i was at grad school i found a worn copy of adele goldberg's smalltalk 80 book and read it cover to cover :) 22:37:06 Posterdati: not because i don't like being asked questions, but because many other people can answer them too 22:37:17 dto: I can't quite gather whether it's geared towards "non-programmers" or as an aid in the traditional modes of communication with the laguage. 22:37:40 stassats: ok, thanks 22:37:44 mathrick: both, it's an easy way to suck people into lisp, as well as being useful (imagine a camera block via cl-v4l2 22:37:49 back in a moment. 22:37:53 also I must admit I'm not a huge fan of Squeak's autistic build-my-own-world approach 22:38:09 i'm not sure i know what you mean, but i know very little about autism 22:38:17 you mean the kid orientation of a lot of the software? 22:38:36 it being used in educational research projects had a lot to do with that, i don't think it's the technology itself . 22:38:38 brb 22:38:47 dto: I mean that Squeak being a self-contained world which does everything inside and barely even acknowledges anything outside 22:38:59 sounds like... Emacs 22:39:15 emacs has nothing on Squeak 22:39:42 i don't know, but i do almost everything inside emacs 22:40:04 it's more like CL's notion of image being more or less the whole world an app sees, just on steroids and taken to the very extreme 22:40:23 stassats: i've been getting sucked in too! 22:40:32 stassats: but you don't _have_ to. It's possible to interact with things that aren't emacs quite succesfully 22:41:28 squeak builds everything it uses from scratch, starting with the horrible, horrible colour-coded mouse button terminology 22:41:32 i'm sure you can communicate with other things via network in squeak 22:41:40 and through external processes 22:41:49 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:42:34 and emacs doesn't have its own terminology? 22:43:10 it does. I admit that smalltalk at least has the historical argument for this particular piece of horrible oddness 22:43:11 with its windows and buffers, with meta keys? 22:43:23 so does emacs 22:44:23 stassats: you still have to break out though, because squeak as it comes is completely independent from anything else. It embeds a tiny world in a window and then makes its own windows, its own UI, its own applications, all living in this tiny independent universe 22:44:39 so does emacs 22:45:06 -!- stanrifkin1 [~rifkin@pD954C0C7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:45:10 *austinh* thinks stassats just wants to fight today 22:45:22 so does... oh wait 22:45:53 stassats: not really. Emacs starts out relatively bare and you can build your own whole world if you want on top of it 22:46:18 squeak completely closed and you can (probably) break out if you try hard enough 22:46:43 mathrick: i'm not trying to create an OS. what i want is something in between Squeak and Scratch/BYOB (enhanced version of scratch), but using SBCL for compilation of the diagrams, and with a lisp flavor to everything. i want the UI to be familiar to people 22:47:26 mathrick: what world can you build with emacs? you can only communicate with external processes through pipes and through network in Emacs 22:47:40 mathrick: maybe the visual programming aspect will not catch on, but with this blocks functionality i've built a sort of morphic clone in miniature, and that'll be great for the GUI stuff like the map editor, asset browser, etc. 22:48:00 stassats: it doesn't do _everything_ out of the box though. Squeak pretty much insists on doing so 22:48:08 stassats: emacs does dbus now. 22:48:16 dto: oh cool 22:48:42 mathrick: at the very least i've got a great gui kit with an interactive gui constructor :) 22:48:46 pnq [~nick@AC815F5A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:02 but i think i can make the VPL thing work. scratch is popular enough, and scratch/byob brought it to a crazy cool next level. 22:49:21 dto: right. What I apparently fail at phrasing properly is, how much do you want to pretend you don't need to be a programmer to use IOSKETCH? 22:49:26 but my philosophy is---provide a complete user interface to everything, but hide nothing in terms of API power 22:49:36 the block programming I've seen before usually tried to do that 22:49:42 and that's IMHO and extremely bad idea 22:49:57 i tend to doubt such claims of "no programming". 22:49:59 mathrick: does squeak have several email clients, two IRC clients? 22:50:02 so i tend to agree 22:50:14 dto: good, that's a very good thing to hear :) 22:50:21 sellout- [~greg@212.3.9.50] has joined #lisp 22:50:41 stassats: no, because it's too autistic to want to communicate with anyone :) 22:51:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-25.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:51:17 mathrick: what i mean is, my insistence on full click/menu UI for everything, is based not JUST on a desire to make the system discoverable and easy to get involved with, but because I think the tool should allow several points on the spectrum between pure visual coding and then making new blocks with lisp, or writing some methods visually and others in lisp 22:51:21 Hey all, I'm not sure how to reproduce this idion in parenscript: 22:51:29 mathrick: so you suggest that it should have a built-in email client? 22:51:29 for (var property in arr) { ... } 22:51:38 otherwise it won't be good, per jwz? 22:51:46 mathrick: http://byob.berkeley.edu/ 22:52:10 mathrick: also check out MathMorphs 22:52:17 or was that you who told me to check it out 22:52:36 dto: right, I don't oppose wanting an alternative UI, that's a good thing. I only oppose replacing things wholesale with the grand new thing 22:52:40 dto: not me 22:53:02 mathrick: part of making the GUI work is that it will force me to tidy up and document the API. 22:53:13 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53:13 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 22:53:16 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:22 stassats: I don't think jwz said "software _improves_ until it's able to send email" 22:53:25 so that everything matches and the blocks have clickable docs. in fact it could be a learning tool /reference for the api. 22:54:18 <|3b|> seangrove: use ps:for-in i think 22:54:50 dto: oh, that'd be great. If you could also make it able to slurp in existing code, then zoom out and add annotations for groups of blocks, etc., it could make a great visualisation / structuring tool for existing systems 22:54:58 or big systems in development 22:55:03 mathrick: hmm. 22:55:08 something to think about. 22:56:24 |3b|: Thanks, that did it :) 22:56:30 mathrick: here is the reasoning behind building this system. I saw for a long time that asset management, especially where assets can be of user-defined structured data specific to one game, that the ability to construct editors would be really good for this project 22:56:32 dto: that's usually the hardest part of grasping code you're new to, getting the big picture. Being visual here could help, because that's where the added structure actually help. I don't quite believe so much in the utility of abstracting (+ 3 5) as much 22:56:58 dto: yes, modding is something that's good, and if anything, CL should rock at modding 22:57:23 s/as much// 22:57:36 well now that i have visual lisp. i can make something like Defcustom in emacs, where you specify a UI for changing certain values interactively and it constructs it. 22:58:01 and then make something to turn around and spit out default (but tweakable) defcustoms , given a particular object. 22:58:35 did you get a chance to peek at my source commentary? 22:58:53 dto: what I also find tricky is putting real added value in the UI, rather than just making it a more flashy way to spell out the words. Something http://byob.berkeley.edu/forscript.gif for instance completely fails to do 22:59:04 it's much harder to read than the equivalent text would be 22:59:21 https://github.com/dto/iosketch/blob/master/blocks.lisp 22:59:27 dto: nope, will do that now 23:00:01 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Quit: bbl] 23:00:31 mathrick: yeah, implementing FOR is not exciting in itself, obviously you'd want to have a few primitive blocks for such a basic construct. i think what their diagram shows is that the language is expressive enough to add what in lisp would be special forms. i.e. every block controls whether and which of its arguments are evaluated. it's macros 23:01:00 visual programming is one thing, but i think what lisp really needs is just a GUI library which is free, modern, works, doesn't crash ever so often 23:01:02 implementing a new control structure visually 23:01:04 is interesting :) 23:01:27 stassats: that's a hard problem. i'm cheaping out by being a game engine and using SDL. 23:01:40 but it's nice because I can make it look identical on all 3 of mac/win/linux 23:01:54 dto: yeah, if you can actually use the blocks to build higher-level black boxes, that'd be something useful 23:02:07 mathrick: have you ever looked into puredata? 23:02:10 nope! 23:02:22 -!- Caffeine [~satanama@23-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [] 23:02:26 commonqt is good, but it crashes quite a lot, especially when you misuse it 23:02:27 mathrick: i've had a lot of experience with that. there is first class support for abstractions, though it's slightly awkward 23:02:49 mathrick: also see my old clone of a PD ui: http://dto.github.com/notebook/clframe.html 23:03:00 is there anything for gtk? 23:03:01 "BYOB 3 adds first class lists and procedures to BYOB's original contribution of custom blocks and recursion." <-- oh right, haven't thought about it: how do you recurse? :) 23:03:14 dto: cl-gtk2 23:03:17 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:44 I hacked a bit to make it more generically applicable for GObject libs, but I had to stop that, I'm not quite sure where it is now 23:03:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-25.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:04:09 mathrick: i'm going to make a "method" block that defines a method, which you can then call by just making a block [method-name arg1 arg2 ...] 23:04:21 i haven't tried cl-gtk2, does it cover the whole gtk, is it stable? 23:04:29 the default action of a block is to send the leftmost argument as a message to the script's target, with the args. 23:04:54 dto: humm, that's kinda not being visual at all :\ 23:05:45 mathrick: what do you mean 23:07:07 dto: if you just cop out and say "and then call this thing I just typed in", that's failing to visualise the structure IMHO. Normally you express the relationship of "X uses Y" by Y being contained in X 23:07:29 but here you just break that metaphor and say "unless it actually cheats with a text label" 23:08:08 dto: how does BYOB solve it? Something like an arrow pointing out would preserve at least some of the visual nature of the connection 23:09:04 though hmm, I guess the blocks are text labels already 23:09:19 *mathrick* tries to deconfuse himself 23:09:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:31 -!- nmg [~nickga@dsl78-143-210-236.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:11:47 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:12:05 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 23:12:11 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:12:36 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:09 mathrick: i'm not sure i get you. it'd be tricky to have a visual language that didn't use text words at all, i don't see using method names as cheating. 23:13:20 btw i am checking out squeak 4.1 23:13:22 :) 23:13:23 it's lovely 23:13:41 and actually they are using the same font i am , coincidentally DejaVu 23:13:53 dto: what version were you using before, and are there big changes? 23:13:54 never understood this halo business. 23:14:15 <|3b|> can anyone with a recent ecl tell me what (ext:float-nan-p 1.0) returns? 23:14:16 mathrick: i tried out maybe 3.8 or 3.9 about 2 years ago and got very inspired. 23:14:36 mathrick: looks like a lot of new stuff. i'll be checking it out and maybe a blogpost 23:15:24 some of the new items in the news file are things i don't understand. but it all sounds great. 23:15:38 heh 23:16:03 and i cant seem to copypaste an example sentence into this 23:17:12 btw with blocks it would be trivial to make windows like this. here's a screen of squeak : 23:18:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-200-251.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:18:51 http://ompldr.org/vNm11dg/Screenshot-Untitled%20Window.png 23:19:32 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-7-249.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:23:35 -!- joast [~rick@CPE-76-178-178-72.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:24:00 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:25:21 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-228-154-25.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:25:55 -!- netytan [~netytan@host81-141-55-130.wlms-broadband.com] has left #lisp 23:27:26 dto: sorry, was watching the BYOB presentation. Make windows like what exactly? 23:27:31 -!- katesmith is now known as dramamomma 23:28:17 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:28:47 airolson [~olson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:49 mathrick: the screenshot url i pasted 23:29:45 ah, you mean with the IOSKETCH blocks? 23:30:16 yeah. that's a shot of the little windowing system Squeak uses. 23:30:59 joast [~rick@CPE-76-178-178-72.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:07 -!- dramamomma [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:31:26 and sdl is getting multitouch in 1.3 upcoming 23:31:33 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 23:32:02 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-7-249.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:14 Kaek [b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:34:40 mathrick: i'm browsing the local file system through squeak, it sees everything. 23:35:37 -!- Kaek [b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:35:41 dto: oh I know, I didn't really mean autistic in the way it can't access the local files. It just does everything itself and then embeds the result as pixels inside one big window 23:36:04 disregarding the fact it also has windows itself 23:36:14 well i can support multiple windows. 23:36:29 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:36:54 and then there's the issue of how the "world" is the real unit of data sharing (except not really, it feels more like showing somebody a picture), rather than code 23:36:59 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has joined #lisp 23:37:02 mathrick: i think it's great that iosketch will have a watchdog making sure i don't fall into pitfalls 23:37:02 :) 23:37:08 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-204-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:37:25 dto: heh, happy to be of help :) 23:37:31 can you explain the world being the unit of data sharing, 23:37:36 i don't know what the terminology is 23:37:48 i saw a world menu, but they said they're not using the world menu as much anymore, migrating to a big mac global menu 23:38:01 dto: I'm not quite sure if squeak uses the word "world" or "image" for it 23:38:16 but basically a dump of your whole state 23:38:36 netytan_ [~netytan@host81-141-55-186.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:40 much like the CL image, except it seems to be much more fundamental in the smalltalk world 23:38:42 -!- netytan_ [~netytan@host81-141-55-186.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:01 Kaek [b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:39:03 mathrick: i built in serialization/sharing of individual objects as well as aggregates 23:39:28 that's how my map editor works and how savegames will work 23:39:33 dto: yup, I need to take a look at it. Getting serialisation right is tricky, so I'm interested in seeing how you managed to do it 23:39:51 its not perfect but it works. see prototypes.lisp in the iosketch repo 23:39:58 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:40:08 the biggest problem with automatic serialisation is that usually just saving everything as is is not the right solution 23:40:21 because there will be bits that will have to be varied 23:40:30 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:30 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:40:30 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:40:59 in case it's not clear what I mean, consider a game that has a sky reflecting the time on the system clock 23:40:59 i have some ways to deal with it. objects can specify fields not to be saved. and there are serialize/deserialize hook methods. but if i think ahead about serialization i don't have to use that as much. 23:41:14 if you just dump everything, you will lose when you restore it 23:41:45 what do you mean, a day/night cycle? 23:41:50 yeah 23:42:02 if it's midnight on my clock, it's pitch dark 23:42:07 i didn't think about the system clock. my day/night cycle in a game would not have to do with the real day/night cycle. 23:42:10 if it's noon, it's bright and sunny 23:42:29 well if i had to deal with that I'd add those checks to the object's deserialize method. 23:42:29 dto: but it's something you might _want_ to do. And the serialisation system should not get in your way 23:43:00 there are a couple places where i've had to be careful but overall it works. 23:43:35 dto: mhm, I get your point about thinking ahead, though again it's something to keep in mind if you want actually to be (more) accessible for newcomers. Because every time you add an implicit bit of state or just knowledge anywhere, that bit will lie down waiting for the right time to bite you 23:44:02 i'm not sure what you mean. if their game objects contain non printable stuff i suppose it'd be a problem 23:44:04 and yes, I'm perfectly aware things can't be perfect 23:44:23 -!- Cowhm [~sellonc@40.120.124.24.cm.sunflower.com] has quit [] 23:44:23 they can even use hash tables transparently. 23:44:28 dto: I mean this: "but if i think ahead about serialization i don't have to use that as much" 23:44:45 the problem is you won't be able to think ahead the first time you use serialisation 23:44:48 mathrick: that being said, i don't feel it cramps my style 23:44:56 dto: I don't know what you mean by that 23:45:14 you mean it doesn't prevent you from writing the way you feel natural? 23:45:33 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:37 -!- cerebral_monkey [berkley@c-66-177-48-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:45:43 what, having to think ahead about serialization? no. it enabled me to NOT think about serialization as much later, i.e. it paid off. 23:46:20 i wanted to build persistent worlds like in Ultima VII. 23:46:58 so i designed my objects to be very simple, and wrote a serializer that handles my objects and their fields, and general sexps, plus hash tables. 23:47:10 mhm? 23:47:57 dto: I still can't quite parse that sentence in any way which'd yield the meaning you intended :) 23:47:58 then i designed the engine around making sure all the game logic can happen with only printable lisp data. 23:48:08 ahhh 23:48:09 I see 23:48:18 thinking ahead of serialisation when writing the engine 23:48:19 guest [6de08ee4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.224.142.228] has joined #lisp 23:48:21 when i said thinking ahead about serializationj, 23:48:23 yes :) 23:48:24 What cl xml library would you recommend to write a simple xml file without too much fuss and without non lisp dependencies? 23:48:32 instead of thinking ahead of serialisation when writing the code 23:48:58 sepi: I think cxml is _the_ xml engine right now 23:49:09 Hi, Anybody know if (swank-backend:save-image) works? It just hangs for me. 23:49:20 *madnificent* thinks he disliked cxml for some reason 23:49:21 sepi: though it does have a little bit of overhead from being very flexible 23:49:22 mathrick: i've been inspired by squeak's "hermetically sealed" environment, but i don't actually want to be hermetically sealed----i want to use quicklisp to load and compile new modules/classes the way you can share projects in squeak 23:49:52 madnificent: perhaps the whole sink business? It was very unclear for me how they're supposed to work when I used CXML 23:50:16 i want the outside world and external programs to be involved. 23:50:21 including emacs. 23:50:24 mhm 23:50:45 dto: what about being able to blockify existing source? Is that something you've considered at all before? 23:50:53 -!- Kaek [b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:21 i want a single canonical lisp based format for multimedia lisp essay/painting/program/game/diary creation and distribution so that i can publish my lifes work as a big .tar.gz when i die and everyone will be able to play 23:51:36 mathrick: I woder if cl-who is an option 23:51:42 dto: that's some thinking ahead 23:51:45 mathrick: i'm not sure if a visual block for (say) destructuring bind would really save anyone time 23:51:54 sepi: it very much is, if all you want is to _write_ 23:51:59 mathrick: i've been secretly researching this since roughly 2000 23:52:05 although i only got into lisp in 04 23:52:09 mathrick: could be... I don't quite remember the syntax, but I assume it was less simple than something like (to-xml '(html (head (title "foo")) (body (h1 :class "something" "bang")))) which is probably what I wanted to have either case... (but now I realize that that wouldn't work for all xml files... which is one of the many reasons I dislike xml 23:52:10 sepi: it's not if you want to do any kind of manipulation 23:52:32 madnificent: yeah, XML takes a big part of blame too 23:52:38 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:51 mathrick: maybe not... XML is simple, s-exps are just better 23:52:58 fpletz [~fpletz@2001:7f0:3003:42:ccc:acab:ed:23] has joined #lisp 23:54:14 dto: sure, I know not everything benefits from blocks, I said as much about (+ 3 5) myself. That's why the ability to zoom out and treat the blocks as object, so you can comment a whole group or something, or replace it with a blackbox shape at a certain level, would be so useful for getting a hang of a big system 23:54:34 oh i see. 23:54:39 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-182.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:54:40 hmmmm. 23:54:41 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-150-51.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:54:46 because the blocks that directly correspond to individual lines of code are lame and not at all exciting IMHO 23:55:22 it's easier just to write (+ 3 5) than to fish around fo the + block and then having to click twice and type 3 and 5 anyway 23:55:26 mathrick: how else would i represent a sequence of actions, if the actions are going to be modeled as blocks 23:55:39 dto: ah, no, I meant it differently 23:55:44 cibob [~user@24-176-43-173.dhcp.klmz.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:57 -!- cibob [~user@24-176-43-173.dhcp.klmz.mi.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:56:02 what if you're thinking of sums and you spit out some + and then thinking of overlaying text on video so you type text and then camera 23:56:03 I mean that the single-line-equivalent blocks are not what you make visual programming environments for 23:56:15 mathrick: oh i see. 23:56:18 they are just the raw material you need to build the actually interesting stuff 23:56:37 mathrick: at this point i'm just happy that the individual statements and basic groupings all work. 23:56:50 what if you're thinking of sums and you spit out some + and then thinking of overlaying text on video so you type text and then camera <-- I'd say that calling that operation "+" is a poor choice :) 23:56:54 mathrick: the next step is defining more and more interesting blocks 23:57:07 mathrick: right no, that was a poor segue..... 23:57:21 Kaek [~b@c-7ecbe253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:57:26 dto: oh of course, I never meant to say that what you've done is not neat. It is 23:57:34 i seriously want a camera block like in the Panther language 23:57:47 joefu [~joefu@2001:7f0:3003:b00b:21e:8cff:feb5:b0ac] has joined #lisp 23:57:55 hi 23:57:56 i guess mathrick one point of disagreement is, 23:58:00 hi joefu 23:58:10 is lisp just a markup-language or is it actually turing-complete? 23:58:19 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:58:31 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:59:12 dto: sure, that could be something very neat. Though that runs into UI problems by itself: how do you present effects on the camera's signal? Like if you run a filter that tints it green, where do you present the resulting video? And what about the original signal from the camera block then? 23:59:34 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:59:36 joefu: uhh, it's not even close to a markup language 23:59:50 mathrick: i see the text labels and one-liners as something that will be familiar to people who read code and or text, in that at points you have things in order on successive lines. in other words i don't want to present sequences and commands with weird metaphors. i prefer that everything looks like a button or puzzle piece.