00:00:01 heh 00:00:28 Let's have a debate over the relative merits of alists and plist lasting several hours 00:00:32 *plists 00:00:33 I guess it's my background with Pythin and Ruby speaking 00:00:47 <_3b> also nice for interacting with lambda lists 00:01:26 I guess so. So, let's wrap it in 6 minutes instead of several hours 00:01:28 :P 00:01:51 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-75-154.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:01:54 (I'll still consider the XML format of OSX "plists" to be a joke, though :D) 00:02:41 I don't understand XML 00:03:01 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.130.227] has joined #lisp 00:03:02 I don't understand the difference between attributes and sub-nodes 00:03:19 heh. It's not bad when it's mostly a document markup, but it's overdone for data format 00:04:07 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:04:08 p_l|backup: well, plists are what powers keyword arguments, so you probably have used them a lot more than you think (; 00:04:09 drdo: that's because XML isn't to be used "directly", but with "xml applications", that is, formats that use XML as a base (like XHTML). Designer of such "application" would choose what to make an attribute and what into a node 00:04:49 antifuchs: true, that's why I figured it's better to wrap the discussion - there are reasons for both to exist :) 00:04:55 p_l|backup: Why do we need attributes? 00:04:57 true (: 00:05:08 Hi, i trying to use ccfi-grovel, but have problems to get it working, specially the cffi.lisp file is not being generated, any ideas what should be the problem 00:05:23 given the choice, I'll often use plists because they can be handled so nicely with destructuring-bind. that's all (: 00:05:48 eh, so can alists :P 00:06:20 how would that work? 00:06:32 <_3b> p_l|backup: now if we can just convince people to not make XML files consiting of a big blob of base64 encoded gzipped binary data 00:06:35 drdo: because when you design a format, sometimes it makes sense for some data to be attribute describing characteristics of the subnodes 00:06:59 drdo: mind you, it requires one to think about the file format, something that seems absent from quite a lot of uses of XML 00:07:08 antifuchs: for example, to get the first pair: (destructuring-bind ((foo . bar) . rest) alist (cons foo bar)) 00:07:16 drdo: ah 00:07:23 drdo: I was talking about using &key with destructuring-bind 00:07:30 _3b: ... reminds me of the stupid idea for GIMP's XCF replacement 00:07:35 that lets you grab bunches of values from a plist 00:08:04 p_l|backup: I thought XML was supposed to be just to describe a generic tree 00:08:05 (destructuring-bind (&key something mumble &allow-other-keys) '(:something 19 :haha 20 :mumble 34) ...) 00:08:22 drdo: XML is a simplified, easier to parse SGML 00:08:35 drdo: it's the usage of it that got out of hand 00:08:51 and most of all, it's a *markup* language 00:08:54 There's so much stuff related to the web and xml and whatnot 00:08:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:01 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:05 I don't even know about it or understand why it's needed 00:09:31 then that would be a good first thing to fix 00:10:14 drdo: I'll say that it makes sense for documents, as it allows you to safely, extensibly mix and match various "applications" together to better describe the data inside. For example HTML+RDF, or "smart tags" in Office etc. 00:10:46 I have no use for such things, so i never bothered 00:11:00 it makes less sense (if any) when used as simple serialization format 00:11:25 also never understood why we need named closing tags 00:13:07 And i don't understand how any of those formats are better than sexps 00:13:23 They are harder to read, harder to parse 00:13:48 -!- churib [~tg@dslc-082-082-115-169.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:14:40 They are? 00:14:54 they may not be better but they are ubiquitous. ignoring them will get you nowhere. 00:15:22 antifuchs: That's not what i'm debating, i'm just trying to understand why someone came up with that 00:15:33 Reading and parsing XML doesn't quite strike me as rocket science. 00:15:37 For shits n gigglez 00:15:43 schme: parsing sexps is easier 00:15:59 -!- zhulikas [zhulikas@3e6b7b31.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:16:04 schme: it's not hugely complicated, but there are some annoyances 00:16:07 drdo: It doesn't really seem much harder to go either way when writing a parser. 00:16:11 they may have thought it was a good idea. or it was a political thing. you can read up on the history on the w3c mailing lists, I'm sure 00:16:15 and easier to read for humans 00:16:16 Adamant: Well sure, there always is. 00:16:28 schme: well, more than sexps 00:16:29 not meant for human reading. 00:16:30 We already had sexps, why invent xml, that's my question 00:16:39 drdo: they very nearly didn't 00:16:44 Quadrescence: Looking for maxima developers? 00:16:54 we've also had ASN.1 for a long time. that doesn't make it a more or less obvious choice 00:17:05 there were similar sexp based standards being floated 00:17:06 sexps arent meant for human reading either. Its why you mkae a nice webapp to display your xml ;) 00:17:27 but SGML was the most mature for such things 00:17:30 schme: Are you honestly saying sexps aren't for human reading in a lisp channel? :D 00:17:56 drdo: remember, it's for *document* markup, where the closing tag might be soo far from the opening one you wouldn't be able to fit them on single screen 00:18:05 drdo: Yes. 00:18:07 p_l|backup: So? 00:18:36 machines don't get confused with that 00:18:40 drdo: it was made with the knowledge that quite a bit of it would be hand written and that not everyone was using good editors 00:18:43 <_3b> drdo: have you noticed the complaints whenever anyone pastes poorly formatted lisp code? seems like that shows how 'human readable' sexps are 00:18:47 and if you are reading/writing it 00:18:56 use a proper editor 00:19:18 _3b: You can write poorly formatted anything 00:19:35 Try reading the html or xhtml of most websites 00:19:36 drdo: Believe me, I had to deal with idiots who insisted on using notepad.exe for HTML 00:19:39 Seems XML has the benefit of making it easy to pull all tags of some sort. Like all or what not. 00:19:43 It's all computer generated 00:19:48 drdo: They're not meant for human reading. 00:19:55 schme: Exactly my fucking point 00:20:00 drdo: have you worked on websites at all? 00:20:05 drdo: Well neither is sexps. that is the point. 00:20:21 schme: So what is the advantage of closing tags? 00:20:22 drdo: You seem to claim sexps ARE for human reading. 00:20:22 and one of XML design constraints was human readability, btw 00:20:37 p_l|backup: XML isn't human readable 00:21:12 And it doesn't need to be 00:21:13 is anything human readable? 00:21:24 mitre: (: 00:21:27 And even if it was meant to, closing tags don't really help 00:21:50 The extra verbosity only makes documents longer and harder to read 00:21:55 (and parse) 00:22:32 drdo: it was, however, part of the design process. And believe me, closing tags helped me sometimes, though naming might be unnecessary from the pov of a parser 00:22:58 pepone 00:23:14 p_l|backup: How have they helped? 00:24:38 drdo: I had to deal with XML in place where nice tree-style formatting was not possible, and editor help was harder to setup than necessary 00:26:28 I'm puzzled 00:26:29 btw, I think Ruby and Lisp communities are some of the very few where the webapps don't have HTML handwritten 00:27:11 in case of Ruby there are things like XML.Builder and HAML, and we know what CL has 00:27:27 Smalltalk might have something similar to XML.Builder, I guess 00:27:50 Having something built into a format because some guy wants to edit in on his one line display somewhere 00:27:57 Doesn't seem like a good idea 00:30:15 p_l|backup: What was that place anyway? 00:30:25 if somebody in the future invents a time machine, this will be the first thing that will be changed. 00:30:36 p_l|backup: I have no idea what Ruby XML.Builder or HAML is, but in the smalltalk world there sure is tools to generate xml 00:31:01 by the continued presence of crappy data interchange in the face of possible spacetime doctoring, we must conclude that this serves as some sort of ideal format. 00:31:08 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:31:34 antifuchs: What 00:32:24 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:32:37 ehehehe 00:32:44 check out http://diveintohtml5.org/past.html 00:33:03 it has a very good discussion on why html at least is as crappy and as ubiquitous as it is 00:33:15 hint: it has nothing to do with technical greatness 00:33:57 schme: XML.Builder is a library that allows you to exploit what looks like normal method calls to write an xml document, similar to how one would use YACLML. Not like "DOM" or anything, but a pleasant way to template XML. HAML is a complete template language instead of the common "let's just write HTML/XML verbatim and place blocks of differently-specified code in it" method of templating 00:35:05 Haml also includes a tool for writing CSS, Sass. Which beats writing CSS by hand :-) 00:35:20 p_l|backup: Hmmm.. not sure how ruby method calls and such work. tbh my only experience with ruby is nanoc :) there's template languages for xml in the smalltalk world for sure though 00:35:59 schme: I kinda expected Smalltalkers to write something like XML.Builder (if I'm even calling it right, haven't used it in years) 00:36:12 http://haml-lang.com/ has example of how haml looks like 00:36:26 and on that pretty much lets you do document addNode: (XML.Element tag: 'node3'). or what heck 00:37:22 http://builder.rubyforge.org/ <--- this is what I've been talking about 00:37:44 aha they seem to have a lot of these markup languages around ruby world 00:37:46 which isn't exactly the XML DOM (which is how the addNode etc. works) 00:38:05 my favorite quote from that is "HTML has never been pure, and all attempts to purify it have been spectacular failures, matched only by the attempts to replace it." 00:38:11 schme: the syntax allows one to write stuff that is quite close to macros, but macros are still better. 00:38:18 well anyway I don't see the big fuzz about xml 00:38:23 p_l|backup: sounds nice 00:38:35 xml is there. it is not major pain. heff 00:40:31 antifuchs: I'm reading that page you linked 00:40:49 Browsers accepting invalid html 00:40:57 That's something i never ever understood 00:41:08 -!- mheld is now known as mheld|wiredin 00:41:10 Why someone would do that 00:41:18 then I have a picture for you: http://boinkor.net/misc/terrible-xml-error.png 00:41:21 It makes your job as an implementor harder 00:41:32 drdo: it's about tolerating bad data 00:41:36 It perpetuates the problem of broken html "IT WORKS ON BROWSER X" 00:41:38 your job as an implementor is to make a product that your users enjoy using 00:41:58 drdo: it just happened that browsers were one place where they should require strictness 00:42:05 thank god there's a standard way of coping with broken html now (: 00:42:08 -!- starseeker [~starseeke@BZ.BZFLAG.BZ] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:42:18 antifuchs: That just makes like harder for everyone 00:42:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-252.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:42:23 *life 00:42:24 in the 90's people wrote HTML in Notepad.exe and couldn't be expected to get everything right 00:42:27 With no benefit 00:42:29 drdo: haha 00:42:31 no 00:42:37 housel: Why? 00:42:49 because that's all they had 00:42:50 I dunno the exact numbers, but a /very large/ percentage of the pages on the web do not validate 00:43:03 should browsers just refuse to render them? 00:43:03 the benefit was "low barrier to entry" 00:43:11 how would that have made the web successful? 00:43:19 antifuchs: That problem only exists EXACTLY because browsers started doing that 00:43:28 haha 00:43:44 or it is no problem at all because because browsers are doing it. 00:43:47 If the browsers had refused to accept invalid html since the beginning 00:43:54 No one would do that 00:44:04 then people would have gotten frustrated and given up 00:44:09 housel++ 00:44:18 and we wouldn't have a world wide web 00:44:26 So i should just write something and the complain when the browser doesn't read my mind? 00:44:30 *then 00:44:56 you can certainly do that 00:45:05 or you can just come up with something that works in the now 00:45:13 which is what most people seem to have done 00:45:16 and it was good 00:45:34 network effects. gotta love them. 00:46:29 Oh well, guess i shouldn't be surprised, this is IT anyway 00:46:37 but yea yea. if the world was sane then *ml would be sexps, C would be forth and java would be lisp. also lisp is magic. yada yada :) 00:47:12 I should start a new school of thought 00:47:15 Wrong is Right 00:47:28 schme: either that or Bliss for C 00:47:38 schme: and we wouldn't be using Unix nor praising it like it's the best thing on earth :) 00:47:42 Adamant: I will look up that Bliss you speak off. 00:47:56 schme: it's in the dustbin of history now but interesting 00:47:58 Adamant: ... wow, I didn't suspect anyone else here adding that one :) 00:48:05 p_l|backup: oh ya. while we're at it we could also kill off x86 >< 00:48:12 schme: Please do that 00:48:15 Adamant: VMS is still written in big chunk in Bliss :) 00:48:15 Burn it with fire 00:48:23 p_l|backup: I am a young fart who learned from a bunch of old ones 00:48:47 VMS's command interpreter is ugly, but the system was very, very well engineered 00:48:55 antifuchs: Even W3C agrees with me that having 99% of web pages wrong is bad 00:48:57 *p_l|backup* is a 21yo guy who got mistaken for a ~40yo "married with children" unix wizard 00:49:21 p_l|backup: I can understand how you got mistaken for that. No disrespect! 00:49:27 yeah pretty much my setup, although I'm older 00:49:29 Adamant: its I/O system... I wish I had that on Linux 00:49:51 unfortunately acall() didn't got accepted 00:50:41 time for a p_l branch of the looniks kernel? 00:50:43 schme: heh. I'd be thankful if someone managed to explain it to me, though :D 00:51:22 schme: I don't feel good enough to dabble with that, though the acall patch wasn't too big. It's the politics of getting a new syscall accepted and then actually used. 00:51:50 (acall() allowed one to asynchronously call any synchronous operation in the kernel) 00:53:37 sukhov [~user@94.27.83.244] has joined #lisp 00:53:40 antifuchs: Finished reading that text you linked 00:53:45 I'm even more depressed 00:54:12 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:43 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-218.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:55:19 It's about how people decided to solve the wrong problem, wasting lots of time and effort so we can continue to have a shitty web 00:55:50 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:57:07 W3C tried to fix it, but the idiots were too many and too powerful 00:57:08 troussan [~user@166.137.141.60] has joined #lisp 01:00:08 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Quit: peace!] 01:00:56 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:05:25 drdo: What is so shitty about the web? 01:07:17 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:08:44 -!- powerje [~powerj@75.49.4.247] has quit [Quit: powerje] 01:09:00 schme: The majority of sites put out invalid html, xhtml, etc and this is condoned by browsers 01:09:25 drdo: And it seems highly succesful and profitable. 01:09:57 keepin' a lot of people out of unemployment too. 01:10:04 I have a hard time seeing the bad here. 01:11:05 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.184.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:11:33 The bad is that it makes the life of browser developers harder, there's no real standard since different browsers "correct mistakes" in different ways 01:11:40 And it's just a mess 01:11:53 With no benefit 01:12:23 esch. browser developers are not so many people anyway 01:12:23 If you consider people being able to write incorrect html by hand a benefit 01:12:28 Then i don't know what to tell you 01:12:45 I have a hard time believing the www would have been any kind of success without this fact. 01:12:56 schme: have you not done web dev before? 01:13:08 derrida: ? 01:13:32 derrida: I find web dev one of the most horrid things to do. 01:13:34 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-182.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:13:52 It is pretty horrible 01:13:54 well, hehe 01:14:15 sohail [~Adium@CPE001bfc8b793b-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:14:20 -!- sohail [~Adium@CPE001bfc8b793b-CM000a73a081a5.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:14:20 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:14:54 I still have a hard time with believing that "the web" would have had its massive breakthrough without this "bad" stuff. and then we would be missing out on quite a few very good things. 01:15:02 Does anyone know how i can use a byte vector on a parameter using Drakma? 01:15:03 i think it being horrible is a result of the same things that have made the web icky in general 01:15:04 and if it makes life harder for a few web devs. well who cares. 01:15:21 schme: Why wouldn't it? 01:15:33 Are you suggesting it's hard to write correct html? 01:15:59 i don't think that's one of the issues :P 01:16:12 Writing it by hand sounds insane to me anyway, similar to editing files on a disk with a magnet and steady hands 01:16:14 drdo: I think that if browsers had not accepted incorrect html then we would never have gotten past the stage where tech geeks wrote html in vim. 01:16:24 drdo: we'd pretty much be at gopher stage. 01:16:50 drdo: why would anyone ever have invented all these nice editors if ti was all just tech geeks anyway? 01:17:01 schme: What editors? 01:17:17 or all the zillion of webshop frameworks 01:17:28 stuff like weblocks, django, rails, etc? 01:17:29 or pages about anything else but boring CS stuff. 01:17:41 oh ya we could forget about those too 01:17:50 schme: ViM was much, much more advanced than what the "webmasters" used 01:17:52 no need for those when only geeks use the web 01:18:01 Those are the right way to produce html 01:18:05 That writing it by hand 01:18:07 *Not 01:18:28 drdo: all of those (well, except weblocks) write HTML by hand, actually 01:18:41 drdo: I don't think we would have ever gotten to a place where anyone felt a need for frameworks and what shit if ti was not for the acceptance of "bad" html 01:18:43 p_l|backup: Never used any except weblocks 01:18:52 I thought it was around the same 01:18:54 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:18:58 drdo: because no one but insane geeks would bother to learn the proper way around things 01:19:01 you just have extra stuff like <%= some code %> intespersed with hand written markup 01:19:06 schme: that's pretty much the problem 01:19:18 Adamant: I fail to see the problem? 01:19:24 programmatically generated *ML is hard to check for correctness 01:19:33 schme: This culture that CS is easy and everyone can do it with no training 01:19:37 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:19:38 Is toxic 01:19:48 Adamant: o O 01:20:07 -!- barceloona [~user@95.214.14.16] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:20:10 drdo: I don't see how you can think "the web" would ever have happened if it was strict and CS. 01:20:10 It's the reason the majority of stuff around is absolute gargabe 01:20:12 drdo: people can do a lot of shit without training. the mistake is when people think that means they can do it well 01:20:16 hi schme 01:20:19 why back to the old nick? 01:20:24 now my pidgin replaces your real name again 01:20:37 Adamant: I don't oppose people doing whatever they want 01:20:45 dto: we had a power shortage and I cant be bothered to renick. 01:20:53 hah. 01:21:16 must be the climate conference in cancun 01:21:27 What i oppose is we adding complexity to stuff so that people can continue to do stuff wrong 01:21:33 that's something idiotic. Why don't they just video conference? 01:23:44 drdo: It's not wrong though. You could argue it was wrong in the contect of strict html, but the web doesn't exist in that context. 01:24:08 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:08 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:24:08 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 01:24:10 schme: It's wrong in any context 01:24:12 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:34 jayeola [~jayeola@5e052c81.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:47 It's specially terrible long-term 01:25:23 It has been the source of much annoyance for anyone trying to do web development 01:25:33 Well who cares about web devs. 01:25:45 -!- adx_ is now known as adx 01:25:50 You are not making any sense 01:25:50 so many people are getting employement and money because of the web. 01:26:03 a million or so web devs. who cares. 01:26:27 Doing stuff wrong just so we can employ people to deal with the mess doesn't strike as particularly productive 01:26:31 #emacs 01:26:37 #vim 01:26:42 heh 01:26:44 drdo: It's not wrong. 01:27:14 schme: Why? 01:27:34 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-83-210.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:46 We could do more interesting stuff instead of dealing with the mess 01:27:50 drdo: It exists in a context that says it is ok. I have no idea how you can argue it is wrong. 01:29:09 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@219.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 01:29:15 schme: What is that supposed to mean? 01:29:31 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-230-134.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29:39 drdo: the rules of the web says non-strict HTML is good to go. 01:29:55 Are you saying we should encourage bad stuff because it's possible to survive? 01:30:18 drdo: I'm saying it's not wrong, that's what I'm saying. 01:30:43 drdo: how do you verify strict HTML or XML in the presence of dynamically generated content? 01:30:50 I have yet to see how it's actually *bad* 01:31:01 well laundry time 01:31:03 I like the idea of strictness as much as anybod 01:31:04 y 01:31:07 Adamant: The generators of such content should only generate valid html or xml 01:31:21 but nobody has solved that little dilemma 01:31:38 Adamant: There's nothing to solve 01:31:40 drdo: that's a circular appeal. we need a way to check. 01:31:47 It's there 01:31:50 where? 01:32:00 I'd like to know, seriously 01:32:03 It's just that the majority don't bother because browsers accept invalid html 01:32:22 Adamant: Check what? If your generator generates invalid html, it's a bug 01:33:00 drdo: if we can only detect that at runtime, instead of ahead of time, then your shit is fucked, no offense 01:33:22 that takes away a lot of the appeal of strictness 01:33:40 I don't understand what you're saying 01:34:11 -!- jayeola [~jayeola@5e052c81.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: jayeola] 01:34:24 You don't need to check anything, your generator should only generate valid html 01:34:30 I don't understand what's hard to understand about this 01:34:33 ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 01:34:50 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-85.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:34:55 drdo: that means you don't understand the problem. generators are programs. there are a LOT of HTML generating programs out there. 01:34:56 You are free to develop a formal proof of your software if you wish, Dijsktra would approve 01:35:11 Adamant: Of course they are programs 01:35:26 Adamant: What is the problem? 01:35:26 -!- troussan [~user@166.137.141.60] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:35:47 besides formal proofs of correctness, which are ruinously expensive, how else do you propose to show the generator is correct? 01:36:04 Empirically 01:36:13 Like every piece of software 01:36:33 What we do with everything 01:36:44 We use it and if a bug is detected, it's fixed 01:36:47 what happens when your emperical software keeps not displaying shit to the client because your shit is fucked? 01:37:02 and therefore it's not generating strict HTML? 01:37:12 You have a bug 01:37:15 And you fix it 01:37:27 or you have a site outage 01:37:31 I don't understand what's the issue here, this is how we develop ALL the software 01:37:39 and you fix it millions of dollars later 01:37:49 That's why you test stuff 01:37:51 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:38:01 testing cannot test all paths 01:38:01 troussan [~user@mobile-166-137-141-060.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:10 That's why we have bugs 01:38:18 yeah, and your bug fails deadly 01:38:25 that's the problem 01:38:27 We do it this way because formal proofs are just too expensive 01:38:33 Adamant: This happens everywhere 01:38:48 drdo: tell that to companies that make their money on the web 01:39:07 Adamant: There's plenty of people who would lose a lot more if their software failed 01:39:14 also failing deadly should not happen to a well designed system unless that's the desired behavior 01:39:26 aircraft software comes to mind 01:39:55 drdo: aircraft software has redundant hardware units and sometimes voting 01:40:00 good thing you dont need to have aircraft software that appeals to the general public 01:40:11 That's really a non-issue what you're describing adamant 01:40:19 or actually competes with the other millions of air craft softwares 01:41:03 -!- mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:41:19 I think that if 100% strictness was enforced by all browsers then we'd see 99% of all sites being all flash in 3 months tops 01:41:40 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-218.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:53 now to head off to the gym and get some work done \o/ 01:42:08 drdo: go implement it 01:42:16 Adamant: It's already there 01:42:22 drdo: point to it 01:42:37 weblocks is one 01:42:56 how do we know weblocks always generated valid HTML 01:43:03 I'm pretty sure we don't 01:43:19 *generates 01:43:31 Have you ever developed software in your life? 01:44:07 drdo: yes, in addition to breaking the shit out in a professional capacity. 01:44:18 *the shit out of it 01:44:22 drdo: can you say the same? 01:44:48 You either test it and use it and fix bugs as they come along 01:44:55 Or you prove it formally 01:45:01 whatever, this is pointless 01:45:02 There's not much else you can do 01:45:15 I don't understand your issue 01:46:15 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.11.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:38 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 01:48:06 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:48:34 -!- troussan [~user@mobile-166-137-141-060.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:49:23 -!- harovali [~harovali@r190-135-86-24.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:51:18 aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:51:44 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-171-89.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52:23 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.123.5.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:52:28 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:54:12 dulouz [~dulouz@2002:d8fe:77db:0:211:2fff:fec3:eeea] has joined #lisp 01:56:49 SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:05 Does anyone know how i can pass a byte vector as a GET parameter using Drakma? 01:57:32 Specifically i need to pass a 20byte SHA1 hash 01:58:37 you serialize it to a string? 01:58:51 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 01:58:55 SHA1 has a reasonably common base ascii representation 01:59:26 Can you elaborate? I'm fairly inexperienced in this area 02:00:10 -!- whee_ [~whee@cpe-69-207-148-170.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:01:06 drdo: SHA1 is represented usually with hexadecimal number 02:01:14 I think ironclad (http://method-combination.net/lisp/ironclad/) has a sha1 module that can give you a string representation 02:01:23 it's considerd canonical, even 02:01:54 mightn't be worth it though... just (with-output-to-string (s) (loop for byte across sha1-vec do (format s "~x" byte))) IIRC (: 02:01:56 40 character string, iirc 02:02:12 ah, wait, ~2x (: 02:02:13 I'm using ironclad to make the hash 02:02:17 ...and stuff 02:02:45 byte-array-to-hex-string - there you go 02:02:53 it's in ironclad 02:03:36 Not sure if that's what's expected 02:03:48 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@75-128-11-42.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 02:03:58 Oh, it looks like it is 02:04:11 harovali [~harovali@r190-135-38-230.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:04:12 Thank you 02:07:07 -!- summersault [~george@189.107.132.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:08:47 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:59 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839F93.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:11:51 summersault [~george@189.107.132.152] has joined #lisp 02:14:43 -!- xan_ [~xan@26.Red-88-24-228.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:23:00 -!- summersault [~george@189.107.132.152] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:12 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:13 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:25:19 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has joined #lisp 02:28:41 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:28:53 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:28 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:35:17 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 02:35:49 bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:36:35 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:37:53 Demosthenex [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 02:40:22 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:41:38 mgr_ [~mgr@mail.phinn.de] has joined #lisp 02:41:42 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.97] has joined #lisp 02:41:51 puddingpimp_ [bpcchha@118-93-191-204.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:43:36 ravi [~ravi@118-92-129-45.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:43:43 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:43:44 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:43:44 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:43:44 -!- puddingpimp [pftdgid@118-93-191-204.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:43:44 -!- mgr [~mgr@mail.phinn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:43:44 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-92-129-45.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:45:31 -!- s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Quit:] 02:47:34 The Y2K problem arrived *very* early for PDP-8 programmers. <--- big understatement. Somehow I wonder what Y2032 will look like... :D 02:47:42 so anyone else in lispworld going to see tron legacy 02:50:26 im gonna watch my special edition dvd on an upconverting dvd player on a massive plasma screen 02:50:37 btw i cannot use the plasma anymore for lisp code or the computer. 02:51:12 it started to burn in . so it'll be playstation only 02:54:34 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:07 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.238.3.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:56:46 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A7F43.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:58:23 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:01:22 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 03:01:59 jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 03:05:10 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:05:21 -!- amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:05:52 -!- mheld|wiredin [~mheld@c-75-69-89-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mheld|wiredin] 03:07:05 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw501177.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:10:22 spcshpopr8r [~user@c-71-231-165-31.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:34 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.1.39.125] has joined #lisp 03:11:53 crt! 03:15:17 arbscht: i listened to the first 20 minutes or so but have to take a break till later. 03:15:19 arbscht: awesome! 03:15:35 your voiceover is super professional and sounds like our national public radio.... however i can't place your accent, where are you from 03:15:48 you're inspiring me to make a more conventional news sounding show 03:15:57 and like, write it instead of ad libbing everything 03:16:46 -!- sukhov [~user@94.27.83.244] has left #lisp 03:19:43 Hi, does anyone use fsbv? when i load that into my image. the slime connection is unexpectedly and i need to reconnect 03:20:29 i me the connection is closed 03:22:03 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 03:29:25 -!- pepone [~pepone@135.246.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:23 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw501177.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:08 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:33:38 -!- ravi is now known as chemuduguntar 03:33:44 -!- Bridge|A is now known as Bridge| 03:34:43 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 03:36:05 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 03:39:23 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Client Quit] 03:42:40 powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-4-247.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:07 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:43:19 s1ugg0 [~chris@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:28 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:46 Good morning everyone! 03:47:08 -!- s1ugg0 [~chris@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:50:16 s1ugg0 [~Chrish@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:56 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.130.227] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:54:26 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 03:55:52 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:00:49 beach: morning 04:01:09 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:02:01 -!- s1ugg0 [~Chrish@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:03:41 -!- dulouz [~dulouz@2002:d8fe:77db:0:211:2fff:fec3:eeea] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:12:05 -!- mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:13:53 mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:07 s1ugg0 [~chrish@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:29 -!- mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:28:49 phao [~phao@189.107.225.67] has joined #lisp 04:28:50 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.225.67] has left #lisp 04:29:40 -!- s1ugg0 [~chrish@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:30:22 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 04:30:44 s1ugg0 [~chrish@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:55 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.15.242] has joined #lisp 04:31:03 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-4-247.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 04:32:57 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117550 04:33:29 Can anyone help out with this, i'm quite clueless about streams overall 04:38:26 drdo: it's naughty behavior from ironclad 04:38:26 drdo: w-i-f-s seems to be missing the sequence argument. 04:38:51 drdo: it appears to use EQUAL to test type specifiers in CRYPTO::UPDATE-DIGEST-FROM-STREAM 04:39:39 drdo: Sorry, I see what you are doing. But the w-o-t-s doesn't specify an element type. Is that normal? 04:40:21 What i want to do is get the SHA1 digest of a byte string 04:40:43 digest-stream produces octets? 04:40:54 (unsigned-byte 8) 04:40:54 drdo: but why do you use digest-stream anyway? use digest-sequence on the result of w-o-t-s 04:41:06 adeht: Yes, before i was even doing 04:41:19 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:41:20 (digest-sequence :SHA1 (encode info nil)) 04:41:33 But ironclad complains 04:41:44 it only accepts (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) *) 04:41:57 and encode returns a vector that's not a simple-array 04:42:07 Or rather, on SBCL it is and works 04:42:10 on CCL it doesn't 04:42:15 drdo: (digest-sequence :sha1 (make-array (length vector) :initial-contents vector :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) 04:42:46 Yes, that ugly hack did cross my mind 04:42:57 But i thought there must be a better way 04:43:02 your current hack is even more ugly, and non-working 04:43:09 Why does ironclad care if it's a simple-array? 04:43:48 drdo: it cares that it's an array specialized to holding octets, so it can tell the compiler that it is, and the compiler will generate much more efficient code 04:44:13 That should be up to the user of the library 04:45:22 Guess i'm going to have to make 2 arrays, sigh :S 04:45:28 -!- az [~az@p4FE4FC12.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:45:29 arguable. the other side is: save the user from dumb inefficiencies 04:46:01 adeht: In this case, i'm having to have to code dumbly and be innefficient for no reason 04:46:23 It's going to force me to read the whole array (that's not simple) to copy it 04:46:38 drdo: not really.. while you may need to create another array and fill it up, the ironclad processing will be efficient 04:47:10 Not that i actually care about this efficiency, it's just dumb code 04:47:11 drdo: also, if you're dealing with octets, you may as well create an octet-specialized array 04:47:23 in the first place.. that is a problem with bencode, if it doesn't already do that 04:47:37 I'm guessing bencode need it to be adjustable 04:47:43 *needs 04:48:11 so here's the Right Way: (i) tell nfroyd about ironclad's naughty behavior (ii) tell bencode's author about bencode's naughty behavior (iii) work around naughty behaviors 04:48:32 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:46 I've emailed the bencode author like a month ago 04:48:50 no response 04:49:01 could fix it yourself 04:49:22 I'm not sure it needs fixing 04:49:38 I'm guessing he needs it to be adjustable 04:50:07 but adjustable doesn't need to be part of the interface, does it 04:51:36 I'm checking bencode's source 04:51:45 He uses flex:with-output-to-sequence 04:52:27 az [~az@p4FE4F422.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:37 are you sure digest-sequence can take it? 04:54:29 digest-sequence only takes simple-array's 04:55:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:59:10 seems to work on (and (vector (unsigned-byte 8) 1) (not simple-array))s here 05:02:25 value #(100 53 58 102 105 108 101 115 108 100 05:02:25 ...) is not of the expected type (SIMPLE-ARRAY 05:02:25 (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) 05:02:25 (*)). 05:02:49 do you use the ironclad.git HEAD? 05:03:05 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:03:11 I use quicklisp's version 05:03:23 try the latest 05:03:33 The docs say it has to be a simple-array 05:04:50 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:05:09 going to try latest 05:05:12 while the (latest) version seems to take non-simple arrays and even take fill-pointers into account, this is true.. then I guess you just have to live with coercion 05:07:20 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@178.120.152.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:09:48 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:48 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:09:49 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 05:11:23 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:13:50 Is there some function that can do something as exemplified by this 05:14:08 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:14:28 (function "FF" 2 "abcdef") --> "FFabFFcdFFef" 05:14:39 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:03 you need to write one 05:15:48 I don't even know what to call this, the string manipulation fanatics must have a name for this 05:16:16 intersperse? 05:16:55 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:17:14 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:37 kanru [~kanru@61-228-158-122.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:25 This doesn't exist in some utility library? 05:19:14 none that I'm aware of 05:20:36 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.107.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:20:53 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@178.126.202.169] has joined #lisp 05:20:55 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:21:24 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.101.27] has joined #lisp 05:25:55 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:35 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 05:29:50 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.96] has joined #lisp 05:31:43 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@178.126.202.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:32:59 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:35:04 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:35:24 -!- DJ_Ice [~DJ_Ice@pool-74-102-113-3.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:35:37 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.101.27] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:02 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:02 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:03 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 05:40:23 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.105.124] has joined #lisp 05:43:44 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:06 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@178.126.207.11] has joined #lisp 05:50:47 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:51:53 drdo: (format nil "~{FF~a~a~}" (coerce "acbdef" 'list)) 05:52:19 Yeah, so that's stupid. But it does what you asked for. ;-) 05:56:57 djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:58:05 I must learn some format :P 05:59:51 don't forget FORMATTER macro :) 06:01:18 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:20 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:01:21 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 06:03:43 drdo: also (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "(..)" "abcdef" "FF\\1") 06:05:45 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 06:07:23 -!- sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 06:10:37 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:31 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 06:14:42 djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:07 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.1.39.125] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 06:15:58 Has anyone written a bittorrect client? 06:16:01 I'm puzzled 06:16:12 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:41 They refer to RFC1738 as the proper way to encode the info_hash 06:16:47 and then give this example 06:16:56 For a 20-byte hash of \x12\x34\x56\x78\x9a\xbc\xde\xf1\x23\x45\x67\x89\xab\xcd\xef\x12\x34\x56\x78\x9a 06:17:02 The right encoded form is %124Vx%9A%BC%DE%F1%23Eg%89%AB%CD%EF%124Vx%9A 06:17:51 -!- Bridge| is now known as Bridge|A 06:23:22 beach: one thing recently bugged me... is there some tradition of names in french military being a big understatement of what they describe? 06:24:17 p_l|backup: Not that I am aware of. Do you have an example? 06:25:14 -!- pnq [~nick@AC820FB2.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: be vigilant!] 06:25:33 Air-Sol Moyenne Portee (excuse me if I butchered the spelling) 06:26:12 a missile with a 300kT warhead designed to wipe out entire divisions -_-; 06:26:48 I see. Well, portée just means the range, not the killing capacity. 06:27:22 beach: yeah, but "medium range air-to-ground missile" sounds rather innocent for "last warning" weapon that precedes ICBM use 06:27:48 It does. I don't know whether that's deliberate, or traditional, or something else. 06:28:15 personally I find it one of the biggest understatements in naming :) 06:28:17 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-228-158-122.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:32:18 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:20 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:32:21 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 06:32:39 With the weapons we have today, i just hope there isn't a real war 06:34:13 drdo: you should get used to it, we are getting *much* better 06:34:21 like antimatter-powered pulse lasers 06:34:33 that are more powerful than beam weapons of sci-fi 06:35:33 theory says about even crazier stuff that we can't yet build 06:36:01 p_l|backup: We have enough stuff to blown the whole planet to pieces, easily 06:36:04 *blow 06:36:49 gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-6-248-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:51 drdo: http://qntm.org/destroy 06:38:45 this should be an interesting read :) 06:38:47 heh. I recently suggested building a giant particle accelerator around Earth. Then I remembered that inertial and gravitational mass is considered the same... which has really bad effects 06:38:58 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:40:17 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:40:34 minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:41 was there anyone since Tesla with both the vision and the talent to pull off such schemes? :) 06:43:00 drdo: regarding scary stuff... For a story of mine, I had to make a sufficiently terrific war and apropriately scary event to end it. Glassing East coast of USA ended up the most technically viable for the story ^^; 06:43:00 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:43:02 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:15 adeht: I don't understand http://qntm.org/board 06:45:49 I'm sure it's some joke regarding the LHC and whatever they were doing there, but i know close to nothing about physics 06:46:43 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:48:56 recently a friend of mine has been bothering me saying he found a story written by me on some forum. Apparently I wasn't the only person to make modern, hi tech world clash with magic :) 06:49:52 drdo: "September 10  The proton beam is circulated for the first time in the Large Hadron Collider, the world's largest and highest-energy particle accelerator, located at CERN, near Geneva, under the Franco-Swiss border.[94][95]" -- wikipedia 06:49:59 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:50:20 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:51:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:51:30 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-208.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:52:55 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:52:59 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:51 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:21 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:03:25 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:03:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:03:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:04:37 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:05:28 adeht: That tells me nothing about that :S 07:06:57 onexused [~purple@unaffiliated/onexused] has joined #lisp 07:09:48 drdo: you can check the entry for LHC.. especially the Safety section 07:14:55 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B3262C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:31 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:32 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:18:33 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 07:18:45 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082B197.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:23:24 -!- onexused [~purple@unaffiliated/onexused] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:23:56 onexused [~purple@unaffiliated/onexused] has joined #lisp 07:29:38 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:32:45 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.105.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:33:56 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.102.9] has joined #lisp 07:34:50 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.202.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:35:14 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:35:40 cmm [~cmm@109.65.202.226] has joined #lisp 07:36:39 alexsuraci [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:45 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:23 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01:35 -!- salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:02:21 I'm aware of how things can be memoized by making something along the lines of MEMOIZED-DEFUN, but is there any way to make memoization something that's disjoint from the function definition? 08:03:28 That is, something like (DEFUN F (X) (IF (ZEROP X) 1 (* X (F (1- X))))) (MEMOIZE F) 08:04:21 And F will be memoized henceforth. (More generally, is it possible to in a sense add hooks to functions a posteriori?) 08:04:38 Quadrescence: please do not write your code in all caps. 08:05:06 Ralith: I usually do it on IRC. I guess it wasn't necessary there. 08:05:35 Quadrescence: most memoization code I've seen provides such a memoize function.. it uses fdefinition 08:07:08 Frakk [~Frakk@host162-250-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:07:12 adeht: ah, so would it just SETF the FDEFINITION of the function with the memoization wrapped around? 08:09:25 Quadrescence: PAIP discusses this technique, in case you have it handy 08:10:28 Yeah I do. I guess I mis-remembered, thinking PAIP just did something like MEMOIZED-DEFUN 08:10:32 Thanks all 08:10:59 -!- gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-6-248-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 08:12:03 oh, perhaps I misremember instead (my PAIP has been "loaned" to a certain someone for the last 4 years or so :)) 08:12:16 cmm: no, you're remembering correctly.. iirc :) 08:12:59 kanru [~kanru@61-228-158-122.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:27 the joy of owning books, there's nothing like it! 08:18:58 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 08:22:12 gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-6-248-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:19 -!- onexused [~purple@unaffiliated/onexused] has left #lisp 08:24:48 -!- gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-6-248-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:55 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-147-222.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:41:49 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:43:28 Quadrescence: Things are complicated by the need to know what test to use for argument equality. 08:43:58 Quadrescence: And further complicated when the function takes more than one argument. 08:44:04 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.102.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:45:40 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.98.195] has joined #lisp 08:56:17 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-16-123.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:01:04 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-113-220.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:02:53 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-1-209.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:04:15 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:12:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:14:43 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:04 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:19:22 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:19:46 aack [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:28:36 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 09:33:10 -!- ajmorgan [~ajmorgan@96.18.164.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:33:16 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 09:33:20 ajmorgan [~ajmorgan@96.18.164.16] has joined #lisp 09:37:29 -!- harovali [~harovali@r190-135-38-230.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:43:23 -!- ajmorgan [~ajmorgan@96.18.164.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:44:30 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:51:10 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:52:19 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:00:56 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.15.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:02:17 horze_ [~kim@c-0b1072d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:05:00 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo_] 10:06:57 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:09:09 borkaman` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:09 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:14:00 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 10:18:00 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:50 HG` [~HG@85.8.74.252] has joined #lisp 10:19:15 nmg [~nick@dsl78-143-206-229.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:19:15 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.98.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:19:45 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.99.159] has joined #lisp 10:31:23 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 10:35:21 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:35:46 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:36:07 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-165-58.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 10:36:35 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-136-196-129.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:37:10 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.74.252] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:38:04 ramus [~ramus@99.23.139.190] has joined #lisp 10:40:54 tib1 [~tl@89.180.193.251] has joined #lisp 10:42:26 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-147-222.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:46:24 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:26 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:46:27 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 10:46:52 -!- Frakk [~Frakk@host162-250-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Frakk] 10:47:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-252.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:49:21 SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:12 Frakk [~Frakk@host162-250-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:53:48 churib [~tg@dslc-082-082-115-169.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:08 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:11 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:56:12 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 10:57:28 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:00:41 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755229.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:50 -!- puddingpimp_ is now known as puddingpimp 11:02:04 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 11:05:23 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-208.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:07:38 *cmm* has watched the emacs touchscreen demo and all he got from it is "wtf" 11:08:02 what does "native" even mean there? 11:08:57 which emacs library does it use to implement gesture input? or is this "native" because the gesture translation is done outside emacs? what _is_ the setup, anyway? 11:09:42 also, what does it demonstrate apart from "look, you can use emacs with a touchscreen!"? 11:09:56 zhulikas [zhulikas@3e6b7b31.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:10:05 (I should be ranting on reddit, anyway, not here :)) 11:10:25 dto: thanks. :) that's actually my normal accent. it's not "from" anywhere, but I've lived in New Zealand for the last decade or so. 11:10:33 hi arbscht. 11:11:42 arbscht: It is not quite typical for NZ though is it? 11:12:20 beach: indeed. most people from this region place it as british, or dutch, or something like that 11:13:12 I see. I wouldn't have said British though, but yeah, it's not "from" anywhere as you say. 11:13:51 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:14:48 people immersed in a language while relatively young but not so young as to sound "completely native" tend to develop very individual accents 11:15:10 ah i see 11:15:30 i have the flat american tv pronunciation 11:15:41 despite growing up in a part of the US known for regional accents 11:16:18 is 'defun' in cl the same as 'define' in lisp? 11:16:34 zhulikas: what is 'define' in lisp? 11:17:02 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 11:17:06 zhulikas: or do you mean scheme? 11:17:21 hmm 11:17:26 maybe I should really check out scheme 11:17:47 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.184.8] has joined #lisp 11:18:01 i am watching 1986' tutorial and they are using Lisp (as they are saying) but their code do not work on my sbcl interpreter 11:18:10 It's Scheme. 11:18:15 ok, thanks 11:18:19 i'll use scheme then 11:18:36 dfox [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-182.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:18:36 zhulikas: no, you should read a book or a language specification, which will tell you exactly what 'defun' (or any other language construct) _is_, without resorting to pointless analogies 11:19:07 at the moment I just need a language in which tutorial's code would work. 11:19:18 and appearently it's not cl 11:19:19 or, indeed, use scheme if you are interested in following the SICP lectures 11:19:50 ok. 11:20:31 any suggestions for linux scheme compiler/interpreter? 11:20:34 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 11:20:44 ok, sorry 11:20:48 i'll go to scheme channel for that 11:20:57 -!- s1ugg0 [~chrish@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21:02 racket is good, but #scheme will tell you more 11:24:21 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:22 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:23 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 11:24:54 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A3EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:39 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.130.227] has joined #lisp 11:28:00 I trying to install cl-openal with quicklisp. It complains about not findind libopenal objects. But I have OpenAL installed on my system (OS X). How do I make quicklisp aware of this? 11:29:32 maybe it needs openal dev headers? Kenjin: also ask on #quicklisp 11:30:22 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:30:51 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:13 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:14 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 11:31:28 dto: thanks 11:32:16 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:17 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:32:18 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 11:32:40 dto: if it does, I'm trying to figure out how to make quicklisp aware of them 11:33:07 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:34:56 dto: btw awsome screencasts ;) 11:35:13 Kenjin: did you see the tablet one? :) 11:35:53 dto: very cool stuff 11:36:18 drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:37:35 Cin [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/zhuangzi] has joined #lisp 11:37:41 dto: I've ranted a little about that ^^^ there, one page up :) 11:38:14 dto: do you use strokes.el, or something entirely else? 11:40:13 dto: I specially liked the split screen stroke and the rainbow stroke :P 11:40:32 What are the advantages to (let ((a 1) (b 2)) ...) over (let (a 1) (b 2) ...)? I am implementing some Lisp syntax. FWIW: There is no explicit progn in my language, and it does not support `nil' values, so the (let (a b c) ...) where a=nil,b=nil,c=nil would not be useful. 11:40:48 s/explicit/implicit 11:40:52 Cin: the former is legal lisp, the latter isn't 11:41:04 cmm: strokes.el on emacs-snapshot ubuntu 10.10 11:41:19 Cin: ah, sorry, too quick to respond :) 11:41:28 Cin: how do you tell where the bindings end and the body forms begin 11:41:33 dto: thanks! 11:41:35 without the extra ( ) around the bindings 11:42:05 dto: There is only one body form, the last. A progn must be used for more than one form. 11:42:28 cmm: i have lots of ideas for things to do wth emacs and gestures 11:42:32 (Well, something like a progn.) 11:42:42 well if you have no progn, then whoo 11:44:07 Given a file containing the text of a book, what is the fastest way to count how many times a unique word is found in that file? Fastest as in execution speed. 11:45:10 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010500.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:17 hi 11:46:05 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:06 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:07 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 11:46:37 Hi prxq. 11:48:51 oskar_ [~oskar@c83-250-205-17.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:49:08 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 11:51:19 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:53:27 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:53:49 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:53:50 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 11:54:49 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:04:46 -!- drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:42 drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:17:23 -!- tib1 [~tl@89.180.193.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:17:47 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:17:49 schoppenhauer1 [~christoph@p5B0BE2F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:29 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:23:10 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.99.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:24:12 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:27:23 -!- drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:29:55 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.96.35] has joined #lisp 12:33:09 -!- Frakk [~Frakk@host162-250-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Frakk] 12:33:16 tib [~tl@89.180.128.252] has joined #lisp 12:38:10 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:38:16 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-133-248-172.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:40:57 drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:47:15 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:49:24 -!- tic [~tic@c83-249-196-184.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:08 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 12:55:36 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:00:22 mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:43 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 13:00:59 -!- SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:01:53 -!- drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:05:25 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:06 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-147-222.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:07:18 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:08:57 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:09:07 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067242.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:09:17 do people write an export expression on top of their files? i.e. (in-package :foo-pack) (export blah blech burp)? 13:09:32 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:09:44 i don't know about people, but i write my exports in defpackage 13:12:01 I am trying to make sense of some code for a lisp interpreter (http://paste.lisp.org/display/117564) . Can someone help understand how I can call "apply-function" with some arguments? 13:12:19 s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 13:12:24 I am not sure how the ecase is working with just matching against say (cons) or (car) etc. 13:12:53 (apply-function 'cons '(a b)) i would think 13:13:29 thanks 13:13:42 I didn't realise I needed to pass in cons with a ' 13:14:02 CL-USER> (apply-function 'cons '(1 (2 3 4))) 13:14:02 (1 2 3 4) 13:14:28 drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:15:09 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:15:39 Bronsa [~bronsa@host200-186-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:16:07 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 13:16:32 stassats: is there a special reason for doing --> map 'list #'my-eval (cdr e)) ? 13:16:40 or can it be simply replaced with a mapcar 13:16:41 ? 13:17:37 map 'list can iterate on sequences in general (like vectors, etc.) 13:18:02 but if it's supposed to be lisp, then it should be a list, so mapcar would suffice 13:18:08 it seems to me that for "apply-function" the second arg "l" has to be a list of list? 13:18:19 -!- s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:18:21 yeah thats what I thought 13:18:42 I mean his car is like ... (car (car l)) ... doesn't make sense 13:18:46 where did you get this code? 13:18:47 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:18:58 a lecture 13:19:05 -!- Cin [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/zhuangzi] has left #lisp 13:19:05 guest lecture 13:19:34 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:53 no minion, crap 13:19:59 i am trying to understand the functions bit by bit 13:20:52 there are somethings about this code that aren't clear to me 13:21:08 -!- retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:21:11 like for example he keeps calling that map 'list .. on (cdr e) which will shrink 13:21:26 then how does he get the function name to be (car e) in the next call ? 13:21:42 a bit confusing :) 13:21:51 what next call? 13:21:58 i'm confused about your confusion 13:22:05 hehe ok 13:22:26 what I meant is that he is trying to get the name of the function to apply to the list of args by doing a (car e) 13:22:29 right? 13:23:27 you have a form, say (cons 1 2), the name will be (car form) => cons, and the arguments (cdr form) => (1 2) 13:23:41 you need to evaluate all the arguments before calling CONS 13:24:11 ah right i see what you mean 13:24:43 so it could be something like (cons (car '(1 2 3)) (cons 1 '(2 3)) ) 13:25:03 so you have lots of expressions within expressions that we got to recursively handle first yeah? 13:25:38 yes, you need to evaluate all arguments before calling the function 13:26:13 ok then this apply-function still is a bit hazy to me 13:26:20 I get the my-eval part now 13:26:35 why is he saying (car) (car (car l)) / 13:26:36 ? 13:26:42 clhs case 13:26:58 no specbot either, i can't work in such conditions! 13:27:05 hehe 13:27:23 http://l1sp.org/cl/case 13:28:58 and somebody please tell edlinde about Lisp in Small Pieces 13:29:12 whats that? 13:29:16 a book? 13:29:18 yes 13:30:03 ok so its an exhaustive case statement 13:31:26 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:33:46 so with the car what I didn't get is why does he need to do a car twice? 13:34:04 I mean wouldn't (car l) return the first expression in a list of expressions? 13:34:28 it would, and that's what it needs 13:35:00 yeah but then he is doing a car on that too 13:35:09 So i did this yeah 13:35:10 CL-USER> (car '((1 23) (2 3))) 13:35:10 (1 23) 13:35:18 and that gave me the first element 13:35:25 which is a list (1 23) 13:35:29 -!- drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:35:34 i don't see that 13:35:39 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.78.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 13:35:56 CL-USER> (apply-function 'car '((1 23) (2 3))) 13:35:56 1 13:35:57 xinming [~hyy@122.238.78.87] has joined #lisp 13:36:04 he applies a function CAR to the first argument 13:36:08 what's the problem? 13:36:19 but isn't that wrong? 13:36:30 (apply #'car ((1 2))) 13:36:33 I mean car is applied to the list as a whole 13:36:42 you're confused 13:36:45 and I should get the first element... eventhough its a list 13:36:53 ok sorry :) 13:36:56 actually it should complain that there are too many args 13:37:19 prxq: the comment says about that 13:37:24 but what about my examples of car and apply-function 'car ? 13:37:32 edlinde: they're fine 13:37:49 your apply-function does the equiv to (car '(1 23) '(2 3)) 13:38:06 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A3EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:38:14 no, it's equivalent to (car '(1 23)) 13:38:15 hmmm 13:38:19 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:38:26 ok I am getting more confused 13:38:33 who is correct? :) 13:38:38 because apply-function doesn't check the number of arguments 13:38:43 surely i am 13:39:01 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A3EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:19 maybe I didn't understand the apply-function right then 13:39:41 so its like saying I want to apply "car" to each element in the list? 13:39:49 no... 13:39:51 edlinde: imo, both are correct. I am saying that your apply-function translates, morally at least, to that what I wrote, and stassats says no, because in reality apply-fucntion doesn't care about the extra args 13:39:55 or sorry the first element in the list 13:40:37 apply-fucntion function takes a function and a list of arguments, and applies that function to the arguments 13:40:59 yep I got that part 13:41:08 and it doesn't check the number of arguments, but that is irrelevant 13:41:15 ok 13:41:37 wish minion was working.. :( 13:41:44 would be so much easier with some examples 13:41:50 actually, i'd say it is exactly what is confusing edlinde 13:42:11 well, take another example, not car, say NULL 13:42:16 ok lets 13:42:24 (apply-function 'null '(nil)) 13:42:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-96.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:42:51 it does (null (car l)), which is (null nil) 13:42:52 yeh true 13:43:43 hmm lemme think here for a moment :) 13:43:59 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:44:21 so he is saying I will check if the FIRST arg in this list is a nil ... if it is then the whole list is a '() or else if the first element is not a nil the list of expressions isn't empty? 13:45:05 then 13:45:06 CL-USER> (apply-function 'null '(nil 1 2 3)) 13:45:06 T 13:45:10 is that right? 13:45:13 no 13:45:33 it is rightish, but your reasoning is flawed 13:45:42 ah sorry he has to do this to EVERY element in the list yeah? 13:45:52 no! 13:45:57 ah crap 13:46:01 :( 13:46:12 null accepts only one argument, why do you give four arguments? 13:46:54 ok lemme try something else then 13:47:17 CL-USER> (apply-function 'null '((nil 1 2))) 13:47:18 NIL 13:47:24 is that better? 13:47:26 yes 13:47:42 this way I am passing null a single argument which is a list yea? 13:47:47 (apply-function 'null '(1)) would return NIL to 13:47:50 o 13:48:02 edlinde: that's right 13:48:13 ok so null I get then 13:48:21 drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:48:25 so he really expects the args to these functions to be spot on 13:48:31 cannot pass it any arbitrary list 13:48:43 can we now go back to car? 13:48:49 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:48:54 no we can't because it's exactly the same as NULL 13:49:05 kenjin_ [~kenjin@218.235.10.192] has joined #lisp 13:49:15 ok so you saying car needs to take a single list in 13:49:21 like NULL did? 13:49:31 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-218.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:49:42 whatever i said about NULL applies to CAR 13:49:47 right, it takes a single argument 13:49:47 ok 13:50:00 thanks guys... I think its more clearer now 13:50:23 so if you give it two, it munches up the first and ignores the rest, at least in that setting of yours 13:50:32 Ah i see 13:50:40 yeah coz its always doing a car 13:50:42 ok 13:51:04 edlinde: checkout Lisp in Small Pieces. "This is a comprehensive account of the semantics and the implementation of the whole Lisp family of languages, namely Lisp, Scheme and related dialects. It describes 11 interpreters and 2 compilers, including very recent techniques of interpretation and compilation. " 13:51:18 ah cool 13:51:39 I got Successful Lisp - Lamkins 13:51:51 I find this quite a good read 13:52:09 successful is about writing in Lisp 13:52:15 LiSP is about writing a Lisp 13:52:26 confusing is about writing in lisp 13:52:38 it gives me a headache 13:52:52 all what I understood about programming is worthless in lisp :D 13:52:56 writing in lisp gives me programs 13:53:13 it's like there is lisp and there are other programming languages 13:53:17 zhulikas: then you understood very little about programming 13:53:23 zhulikas, take some paracetamol then 13:53:36 if it gives you a sorehead 13:53:38 programming is little about languages 13:53:39 stassats, now I know, that I didnt know anything until now 13:54:27 I actually find lisp pretty cool.... 13:54:29 stassats: I'm not too sure about that... it depends on your point of view 13:54:32 once you get the hang of it 13:54:51 actually, programming in lisp is like programming in anything else, mostly, plus some sweeteners and without the massive migraine 13:54:52 quite interesting the amount of stuff you can do with it 13:55:06 I especially like returning multiple values... ;) 13:55:23 without having to make a struct like in C or passing pointers around etc. 13:55:30 the thing is that lisp has completely different aproach to programming imho 13:55:49 zhulikas, example? 13:56:07 zhulikas: right, explain yourself. I just wrote a loop, for example. 13:56:24 prxq: but it can be a mind-bender from time to time. Wrapping your head around implementing something in CLOS's MOP was challenging for me 13:56:28 madnificent: in my POV programming is about writing programs, and without knowing how to structure programs, how to use algorithms or how to make algorithms you can't go very far 13:56:46 delYsid` [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:57:14 knowing basics of some language i can write shitty, but working, programs in it 13:57:33 madnificent: well, ok, but try that in C :) 13:58:00 stassats: But programming languages place boundaries ni which you must write your programs. When writing programs, some programming languages can lack certain expressivity. Suddenly it's not just about your own thought anymore, but how you can structure them within the language. The language does seem to play a major role from that pov 13:58:01 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:58:14 prxq: I didn't mean it that way ^_^ I love lisp :D 13:58:59 well, maybe that's only SICP but they start from generics and higher-order functions while learning in languages such as c++/java starts from accessing some shitty fields in object or something 13:59:01 madnificent: it's just a tool, and tool by itself is meaningless 13:59:29 I don't _love_ lisp. maybe my increased efficiency... maybe... but still, I'd rather use "like"... 13:59:38 zhulikas: SICP is notorious for that. Did you check "practical common lisp"? 13:59:46 not yet. 13:59:48 madnificent: surely not all tools are created equal, but beware of the turing tarping 14:00:05 zhulikas: that's more vanilla 14:00:35 i'll keep that in mind. 14:01:03 stassats: that doesn't have much to do with it... The tool may be good or bad. If you try to build a house with mortar and bricks, you'll probably use a different approach than building a house for the same goals with tin cans 14:01:04 i'd like to have some more resources like SICP. Something more in general about computer science. 14:01:38 madnificent: that's is a pointless philosophical masturbation, let's end it 14:01:45 stassats: the theoretical constructions you can build do differ from language to language. The compuation might be the same, but the act of programming is different, I think. 14:02:21 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:02:37 LinGmnZ [~LinGmnZ@ppp-58-8-207-28.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 14:03:18 retrry [~quassel@84.55.45.179] has joined #lisp 14:04:34 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.249.209] has joined #lisp 14:08:02 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-62.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:08:29 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-46-120.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:10:19 -!- drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:10:44 -!- kenjin_ [~kenjin@218.235.10.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:02 phaer [~user@chello080108090109.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:15:27 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host200-186-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:16:03 -!- mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:16:04 -!- jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has quit [Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5] 14:19:10 jamief [~user@harrison.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:22:41 powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-4-247.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:32 drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:29:08 zhulikas: SICP was designed to kick out those that couldn't keep up, partially 14:29:19 well, maybe not officially, but it kinda worked like that ^^; 14:29:34 can i feel superior now? 14:29:56 stassats: did you go througha university course based on SICP? :) 14:30:41 no, i don't need university courses, because i'm superior to those students who need them 14:30:46 kenjin_ [~kenjin@218.235.10.192] has joined #lisp 14:31:19 lol 14:31:41 -!- churib [~tg@dslc-082-082-115-169.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:32:40 mitre__ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:33 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 14:36:01 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:36:07 -!- mitre__ is now known as mitre 14:39:19 What's going on here? :P 14:39:42 with the i'm special you're special we're all special 14:39:45 churib [~tg@dslc-082-082-099-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:52 drdo: some chumps are talking about something called "lisp" 14:40:09 we are all a one big happy disfunctional family 14:40:15 If I have a bunch of .lisp files that make up my program, is it appropriate to have one file with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (progn (load "a.lisp") (load "b.lisp"))) in it, or is there a more acceptable way of including a bunch of files together? 14:40:21 drdo: and some are lexical 14:40:21 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:40:25 (who put the "fun" in "disfunctional") 14:40:31 stassats: i'm dyslexical! 14:40:43 -!- minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:40:46 necroforest: ASDF 14:40:54 necroforest: no, ... what drdo said 14:40:57 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:41:08 ok 14:41:42 minion is taking such long vacations 14:43:31 If I was doing an undergraduate course with computing programming I'd like it to be based on SICP 14:43:51 Guthur: mine was 14:44:18 same here, only first two chapters though 14:44:20 Wasn't very useful though because i had already seen the SICP lectures before it 14:44:34 p_l|backup, so you mean that course is too difficult for students? 14:44:37 the calculus based examples are maybe an unnecessary obfuscation though 14:45:07 I thought maybe it's just me who find it a bit confusing :) 14:45:15 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.202.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:45:41 I'm pretty sure people are supposed to know differential calculus when they reach university 14:45:46 At least here they are 14:45:57 drdo, Not here 14:46:03 zhulikas: once, the CS course tended to be difficult enough that it weeded people out. Later "Java Schools (tm)" came 14:46:13 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:46:17 cmm [~cmm@109.65.202.226] has joined #lisp 14:46:28 I found the SICP lectures very very good 14:46:30 drdo: it's common assumption among professors in poland, but our high school curriculum got culled 14:47:36 drdo, please suggest me something else what is in such level and style as SICP lectures :D 14:47:52 zhulikas: What are you having trouble with? (on the SICP lectures) 14:47:54 by the time I entered high school, they already removed integration from math exam, and they removed derivation when I entered last year (after we spent big chunk of previous year learning it. It solved soo many issues for me that I had with the more primitive methods, dang it :/) 14:48:33 The calculus examples on SICP if i recall correctly are when you are introduced to pattern matching 14:48:51 And it isn't important for you to actually understand the derivation rules 14:48:54 drdo, it's not the case that I have problems, it's just that I want MORE resources like that :) I love SICP. Maybe one of the reasons why is because I find it confusing. Something challenging for me :) 14:49:15 zhulikas: Yes, what i'm asking is, what do you find confunsing? 14:49:18 drdo, It's not, but like I said 'unnecessary obfuscation' 14:49:25 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:49:38 Guthur: Eh, what are the alternatives? 14:49:47 It was an example as good as any 14:50:01 It's a common thing for people to know 14:50:06 drdo, math is a bit out of my league. Earlier I needed to take a look at anonymous procedures... But I can solve that myself :) 14:50:25 zhulikas: What math are you having trouble with in SICP? 14:50:31 differential calculus is not a common thing for people to know 14:50:44 that's a ridiculous statement if you don't mind me saying 14:50:47 Guthur: university level people 14:50:50 it is 14:50:53 yeah. Second lecture, differential calculus :) 14:50:57 Guthur: but should they actively resist learning it? 14:50:58 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:51:21 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 14:51:24 drdo, they are not teaching us math at our university... that's the problem 14:51:42 zhulikas: What math are you having trouble with in SICP? 14:51:45 it's really stupid. computer science without math 14:51:53 computer science is math 14:52:20 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:48 On my course, we had calculus, linear algebra, discrete mathematics, theory of computation on the first year 14:53:32 I do not understand algorithms of differential calculus used in lecture 2. And I am not asking someone to explain them to me. 14:53:37 Any degree has this on my univ, i thought it was the norm? 14:54:00 Computer Science as a term is used differently in different countries 14:54:03 on normal university it is. I am on a 'professional education' course 14:54:16 besides, what I think zhulikas is asking is for more resources similiar to SICP 14:54:23 which is taught also in university. but discipline is completely different in this uni 14:54:26 CTM? 14:54:33 oskar_, thank you. 14:54:37 I was just curious as to why he found them confunsing 14:55:03 I remember watching them before i even joined university and found them so clear and extremelly good 14:55:05 i haven't finished CTM yet, so can't tell much 14:55:18 What's CTM? 14:55:31 salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:42 Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming i guess 14:56:04 rifht 14:56:19 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1FA5.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:56:42 There are no video lectures? 14:57:17 for video lectures I would look to academicearth.org 14:57:49 or mit.opencourseware.* 14:57:57 * - I forgot the ending. 14:58:05 I was just curious, i found SICP really good 14:58:30 me to. Problem is with my lack of math knowledge 14:58:45 but nevermind 14:58:52 zhulikas: I don't remember that being necessary 14:59:12 drdo, it is if one wants to understand completely everything :) 14:59:35 well, suit yourself 14:59:41 so, what's the problem. Can't you learn math? :D 15:00:24 All they show is a couple of differentiation rules 15:00:27 sure. All of it. 15:00:29 That's it 15:00:41 just dont mind that :D 15:00:48 And you don't really need to know them 15:00:54 -!- oskar_ [~oskar@c83-250-205-17.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:01:05 they just show the equations as an example to an application of a pattern matcher 15:01:08 differentiation is actually quite simple 15:01:11 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:01:15 which they proceed to show how to implement 15:01:34 strangely enough, everything seems simple once you understand it 15:01:52 stassats: It's pretty simple and easy to understand 15:02:02 It's very intuitive 15:02:03 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:10 what is? 15:02:14 differentiation 15:02:32 right, i remember integration being harder 15:02:38 more rules to remember 15:02:51 Not even talking about the rules, the concept 15:03:01 Integration is a harder concept to wrap your head around 15:03:05 At least for me it was 15:03:43 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:54 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:59 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:04:12 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:19 and differential equations were still harder, i don't think i'll be able to solve any now 15:04:37 stassats: You generally don't introduce that until much later 15:04:44 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 15:05:09 On my univ it's introduced after complex analysis 15:06:03 drdo: and for how long you had complex analysis? For semester or half of semester? 15:06:12 ok, we're diverging too far off-topic 15:06:24 retrry: half 15:06:30 It's terrible 15:06:53 Only the one-dimensional calculus course is any good 15:07:01 the rest is crap 15:07:11 yea, I hate my university, because we have to learn differential equation, complex analysis and calculus of variations in one semester... 15:07:13 They don't expect you to get a proper understanding 15:07:18 so, you need to be a phd student 15:07:23 It's just "for engineers" 15:07:26 or learn everything on your own 15:08:09 retrry: Oh, complex analysis and differential equations is one semester here too 15:08:14 just one after the other 15:09:24 I wish they teached that in our uni 15:09:38 and, you think that was enough time for these subjects? 15:09:39 instead of crappy Java 15:09:53 sacho_ [~sacho@90.154.204.70] has joined #lisp 15:10:19 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-99-232.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:10:53 araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has joined #lisp 15:10:53 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has quit [Changing host] 15:10:53 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:12:34 dulouz [~dulouz@2002:d8fe:77db:0:211:2fff:fec3:eeea] has joined #lisp 15:14:01 gabnet [~gabnet@172.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:29 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:36 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@178.126.207.11] has quit [Quit: red1ynx] 15:20:59 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.248] has joined #lisp 15:21:23 amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has joined #lisp 15:23:28 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:24:11 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:25:46 Can I do integer division in CL without explicitly calling floor? 15:25:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:57 (/ 7 3) 15:26:04 Doesn't that make a rational? 15:26:18 Frakk [~Frakk@host162-250-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:26:19 Oh. Yeah, you need floor. 15:26:31 (Or ceiling or round) 15:26:35 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:40 pepone [~pepone@135.246.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:26:45 or truncate 15:26:54 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:56 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:34 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:28:51 beyeran [~apb@p54A91B71.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:26 what's the difference between truncate and floor? 15:30:47 in how they treat negative numbers 15:31:02 ah, right 15:31:05 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:31:31 since floor(x) is the largest integer < x, floor (-4.5) = -5 15:32:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 15:32:27 retrry: No, i just said i think it's terrible 15:32:36 -!- kenjin_ [~kenjin@218.235.10.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:03 Hi, how can i pass a cstruct to a ccfi:function-call? I trying to use CFFI to call int getifaddrs(struct ifaddrs **ifap); 15:34:25 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-228-158-122.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:34:36 necroforest: floor truncates towards -, TRUNCATE towards 0, and ceiling towards + 15:34:48 right 15:35:11 I'm sick of fighting with flexi-streams, cl-bencode and ironclad :( 15:36:25 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:27 and round truncates towards nearest integer 15:37:11 Why can't i flex:peek-byte on a stream created by flex:with-input-from-sequence? 15:37:39 stdDoubt [~XP@bl17-96-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:37:41 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:21 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:22 Why my google search one week ago didn't reveal cl-bencode? (I found bencode.el, and decided to rewrite it in CL)... 15:38:39 pjb: It's been there for more than a year :P 15:38:47 how to return a string list in a macro ...suppose we have a macro that has to return ("1" "2" "3")... how to return this list as '("1" "2" "3")? 15:38:51 I asked for it to be included in quicklisp some time ago 15:38:54 and now it is 15:39:22 i remember cl-bencode being quite slow 15:39:22 stdDoubt, double quote it? 15:39:35 stassats: I'd be happy if i could work with it 15:39:37 (defmacro whatever () ''("1" "2" "3")) 15:39:50 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.71] has joined #lisp 15:40:03 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755229.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:14 There is no applicable method for the generic function: 15:40:14 # 15:40:14 when called with arguments: 15:40:14 (#) 15:40:25 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067242.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:40:26 CL-USER> (macroexpand-1 '(whatever)) => '("1" "2" "3") 15:40:28 I'm getting this and i honestly can't see why 15:40:31 stdDoubt: notice that 'x is actually (quote x) so you can have a macro return it by computing (list 'quote 'x). 15:40:34 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755229.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:29 Does anyone have any idea about this? (: 15:45:01 pebkc [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:45:56 drdo: maybe because it is an in-memory stream and not a flexi-stream 15:46:02 drdo: peek-byte isn't defined on in-memory streams 15:46:11 -!- beyeran [~apb@p54A91B71.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:47:06 Why? :S 15:47:10 the same as reek-char on string-streams 15:47:11 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:38 Sounds trivial to implement peek-byte for an in-memory-stream 15:47:43 thanks pjb 15:47:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-252.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:47:56 and necroforest 15:48:06 oh wait 15:48:25 i was using peek-char wrong 15:48:48 I only need this because bencode:decode wants a stream 15:49:01 damn optional arguments in different order 15:49:12 And i'm trying to decode a byte vector i get from drakma from the tracker 15:49:55 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:49:58 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-148-35-135.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:50:23 Also, on the peek-byte docs it only says it must be a flexi-stream 15:50:39 And i don't actually see a reason why it couldn't be an in-memory-stream 15:50:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-93.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:50:58 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:51:04 i don't see either 15:51:30 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-208.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:51:39 jewel_ [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:53:00 is it ok to ask lispworks questions here? 15:53:09 -!- jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53:17 ch077179: not really, but you can try 15:53:18 Well, i see why it doesn't work from reading flexi-streams source 15:53:33 drdo: why? 15:53:36 in-memory-input-stream and flexi-input-stream are two different classes 15:53:40 -!- drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:53:48 and peek-byte is only defined for flexi-input-stream 15:54:04 drdo: oh, i thought you found the reason why 15:54:14 Why as in, why this isn't implement, i haven't 15:54:20 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-148-35-135.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 15:54:30 Or why in-memory-streams aren't flexi-streams 15:54:35 I can't get lispworks to run as user (it hangs with the splash screen) as root it seems to work 15:54:42 Does weitz hang around here? 15:55:06 drdo: no 15:55:18 he used to 15:57:30 ch077179: you may find better luck on the lisp-hug@ mailing list 15:58:38 Wow. stat is really, really slow on solaris. 15:59:26 mitre__ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:10 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:35 ty stassats 16:01:28 mitre___ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:03 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:02:05 -!- mitre___ is now known as mitre 16:02:12 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:02:57 Well, i've mailed weitz, i hope he isn't like the cl-bencode author and actually checks mail more than once a year :) 16:03:26 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-4-247.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 16:03:38 pjb: Were/are you implementing a bittorrent library by the way? 16:03:59 i wrote bencode reader without using peek-byte 16:04:13 stassats: Yes, i can do that too, that's not the problem 16:04:14 jlf [~user@adsl-99-93-132-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:20 -!- jlf [~user@adsl-99-93-132-105.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:04:20 jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:04:20 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.71] has joined #lisp 16:04:38 It's just that cl-bencode uses it and i don't see a reason for it not being supported on in-memory-streams 16:04:44 but i don't know whether it works, since i end up not need a bencode reader 16:04:57 -!- mitre__ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:06:15 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@212-183-43-137.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:06:22 drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 16:06:40 Good evening everyone! 16:07:20 hi beach 16:07:28 heya, beach 16:07:31 Good "afternoon" 16:07:33 ! 16:09:55 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:10:41 beach: Do you by any chance know why unread-byte and peek-byte aren't defined for in-memory-input-streams in flexi-streams? :P 16:11:50 i think beach is of flexichains fame, not flexi-streams 16:12:11 Yes, i know, just wondering if he knew :) 16:12:17 *flexichain 16:14:10 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:15:19 s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:15:36 -!- dulouz [~dulouz@2002:d8fe:77db:0:211:2fff:fec3:eeea] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:15:38 drdo: Sorry, don't know! 16:15:40 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-62.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:16:07 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw305048.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:19:00 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:09 -!- s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Client Quit] 16:19:15 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-10.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:19:16 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:19:18 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:20:51 A recent ubuntu update changed the emacs font to a big ugly crappy one, I want the nice small one back. There's likely someone here who had that same problem and found the solution?... 16:21:01 Hexstream: #emacs 16:21:38 Hexstream: You can change emacs' font with an X resource 16:21:40 Well, that channel doesn't have a great track record for me. Hundreds of people, nobody answering anything most of the time. 16:21:41 Hexstream, check Options 16:21:45 Emacs*font 16:22:09 And I bet #emacs will refer me to #ubuntu, which I just tried. 16:22:20 example: Emacs*font: Dejavu Sans Mono 8 16:22:32 Hexstream: that's not the reason to go to #lisp 16:22:39 no #emacs is #emacs 16:23:01 (last I knew, no reason for it redirect to an OS channel) 16:23:13 Hexstream: I use things like Emacs -fn Sans-18 16:23:13 What's with the off-topic police, everyone sane in this channel uses emacs 16:23:25 drdo: That's what I thought! 16:23:34 Hexstream: er, "emacs -fn Sans-18" 16:23:46 not so drdo, there are vi people for sure 16:23:55 JuanDaugherty: that's why i said "sane" 16:23:59 i c 16:24:06 hehe :) 16:24:27 drdo: because there is a channels specifically created for Emacs, where are far more people knowledgeable about Emacs 16:24:37 here you can only ask Slime questions 16:24:37 Hmm.. It seems the bookstore I use has stopped selling land of lisp all together. It has been out of stock for a while, and now they don't carry it at all. 16:24:48 and more people period IIRC 16:24:57 maybe not though 16:24:59 *schme* googles for where to buy it now. 16:25:03 stassats: Oh come on, he only had a very trivial question and he's used to hanging around on #lisp, i don't see a problem with just giving him a one liner 16:25:27 "How do I get Slime to use the proper font?" 16:25:38 Hexstream: slime doesn't deal with fonts 16:25:46 -fn works, I use the full X font spec in scripts 16:25:49 Hexstream: you have already been told how to solve it in two ways 16:25:52 -!- stdDoubt [~XP@bl17-96-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:25:59 I consider myself a user of Slime more so than a user of Emacs. 16:26:01 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.238.3.145] has joined #lisp 16:26:12 drdo: I was poking fun at stassats :/ 16:26:30 it's grumpy day? 16:26:55 hmm.. and now ordering the book seems to require the credit card I cancelled. 16:27:05 *stassats* goes back to writing Emacs Lisp, god help me 16:27:23 No land of lisp :S 16:27:23 just checked and meant something like -adobe-times-bold-r-*-*-18-*-*-*-*-*-*-* but what I actually am using is like "7x13" 16:27:23 stassats: Out of line! Go make that comment in #emacs 16:27:29 :P 16:27:43 drdo: saying how terrible other Lisps are is on topic 16:28:17 This isn't #non-cl-bashing 16:28:25 for a lang that's not very popular I was surprised how many implementations are vital, commercially active even 16:28:37 drdo: it isn't #cl either 16:28:41 JuanDaugherty: Where there is money to be made.. :) 16:28:48 stassats: The topic disagrees 16:28:57 *beach* thinks #lisp participants are bored. 16:29:07 schme, but does that come from legacy apps or what? 16:29:26 more hacking. less talking. 16:29:29 beach: I'm waiting for weitz to respond to my mail, so meanwhile :D 16:29:42 so you'll be slacking for a couple of days? 16:29:46 JuanDaugherty: Not a clue. Probably, like everything, a nice mix of historical things and non-historical things. 16:30:01 stassats: No, don't say that, i don't want to rewrite bencode :S 16:34:01 *JuanDaugherty* wouldn't be surprisd if the shops selling lisp are making money primarily from professional services for legacy apps. 16:34:40 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD951FA6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:40 I'm actually curious 16:34:52 I checked the prices for lispworks and it's quite expensive 16:35:18 the personal edition is free though 16:35:29 And conveniently crippled. 16:35:34 and it's not crippled or anything now, though I think it used to be 16:35:42 5 hours runtime 16:35:42 the heap at least in acl isn't big enough. 16:35:49 and memory limits i think too 16:36:11 i don't think lw has that 5 hour limit now, could be wrong 16:36:13 And also, what's the advantage compared to SBCL and friends? 16:36:27 drdo: they implement a lot of extentions. 16:36:32 more complete, full featured pkg 16:36:34 things like allegro-graph 16:37:13 the IDE's they include sort of silence all those "I want to learn lisp, but I hate emacs!" sorts of interactions that we get innundated with around here. 16:37:31 windows support is first class, if that's the sort of thing you need. 16:37:41 What's wrong with emacs? 16:38:01 as a lifelong emacs user, my only beef with it is that it's a single threaded application. 16:38:08 just started lw pe 6.0 which I downloaded a couple days ago, doesn't say anything about a time limit 16:38:14 Fade: I commented that recently 16:38:19 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:38:31 but tonnes of people come in here and apparently the only barrier to their mastery of lisp is emacs. 16:38:39 Fade: From an editor point of view that's not an issue, but of course we don't think of it as just an editor 16:38:52 it's an issue when you use tramp mode a lot. 16:38:59 I do 16:39:05 And yes, i know what you mean 16:39:16 But still, i bet those editors don't support that 16:39:20 -!- jesusabdullah [~jesusabdu@li225-26.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:39:27 jesusabdullah [~jesusabdu@li225-26.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:39 i'm sure they don't 16:40:02 Emacs is pretty easy to start with i'd say 16:40:11 lw and acl both have systems for building double-clickable execs built right in. 16:40:14 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:40:20 If you know nothing, you can just use it like you use the other editors like gedit, nano etc 16:40:21 commercial support 16:40:32 you have a menu bar and even a toolbar 16:40:38 drdo: Yes, in implemented a bencode library. Just to be able to read (and write) torrent files. 16:40:58 pjb: But are you writing a bittorrent library? 16:41:09 Or you just want to read torrent files for some reason? 16:41:33 I just wanted to read torrent files, to compute the total size. 16:41:36 Fade: That's available for SBCL too 16:41:49 pjb: then cl-bencode works well for you 16:42:03 Too late, I already did it! :-) 16:42:10 Can you share? 16:42:17 It's in my git. 16:42:37 I'm having that problem with peek-byte on in-memory-input-stream's 16:42:38 :S 16:42:47 also, built in (non-portable between impls) support for building gui apps. 16:42:48 http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/lisp&h=883ed024bfc3d9a6c18f247fde3f1ff4946d050e&hb=9c2f2a59c0171d2b307d0682a064776e5f6906b6&f=common-lisp/data-encoding/bencode.lisp 16:42:49 *Fade* shrugs 16:42:59 they obviously have enough stuff to make a business of it. 16:43:01 drdo: I just wrapped the stream over. 16:43:21 Fade: of course they do, or they would be out of bussiness 16:43:32 16:43:38 GPL #1 16:43:45 I GPL everything 16:44:08 *Fade* throws everybody in the penalty box 16:44:29 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.238.3.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:44:30 Fade: I was just curious, i guess when a company reaches a certain size, those couple thousand dollars are worth the convenience and lack of headaches 16:44:50 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:45:09 i think if you're targeting windows as your core platform, one of the commercial lisps is probably the only sane way to go. 16:45:31 krzysz00 [~user@pool-71-252-233-89.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:53 I've seen applications for windows, os x that are double clickable using sbcl 16:46:00 dto's games for example 16:46:10 sure 16:46:16 i'm aware it can be done. 16:46:42 Does anyone here think writing a library that makes diffs of CLOS objects and applies then would be a good idea? It might come in handy if you're writing some client-server app and the client needs to update the servers copy of the state without transmitting the entire object. 16:46:44 but iirc, lw and acl do things like shake out the image so it's not 60M for a hello-world class app. 16:47:45 krzysz00: I've been imagining the security implications of that for about 3 seconds, and I already have a blinding headache. 16:48:55 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 16:49:39 drdo: clozure cl has pretty deep integration on OS X, but I tend to group OS X with the rest of the unix ecology. 16:49:53 That doesn't seem worse than executing any kind of turing-complete code outside a really strong sandbox. And you could make it so only specific objects are modifiable this way. 16:50:05 ccl even ships a cocoa-ized hemlock-based IDE. 16:50:26 security implications aside, a compact format for such things might be useful. 16:50:43 Fade: I know, i'm using OS X atm and i tried it for a bit 16:50:45 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:49 krzysz00: objects are often small. Who has objects with more than ten slots? 16:50:52 I found it, to put it bluntly, terrible 16:51:03 I use emacs on OSX, too. 16:51:11 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.192] has joined #lisp 16:51:22 but people might object with 10 slots, that contain object with 10 slots, that contain large arrays, etc. 16:51:46 in fact, I tend to treat OSX as a slightly brain damaged Linux machine, so I'm obviously not the right demographic to be critiquing apple-ized software. 16:51:47 Fade: I even tried looking at that cocoa bridge thingie to try to put up a gui together 16:51:48 hrrm, i have a class with 26 slots 16:52:06 It's horrible, i gave up, it was just too hard 16:52:28 I didn't try a lot, i wasn't desperatly interested, but it wasn't easy at all 16:52:30 drdo: why so? 16:52:34 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:53:01 drdo: I wrote a reader macro to be able to write [recipient sel:arg1 ector:arg2] and so on. 16:53:10 -!- Frakk [~Frakk@host162-250-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Frakk] 16:53:15 pjb: I have no idea what that means :) 16:53:20 stassats: Is it some kind of huge global object?... 16:53:27 I didn't look at it very much 16:53:37 Hexstream: no 16:53:40 drdo: perhaps that was why you had difficulties: you have to know Objective-C and Cocoa first. 16:53:48 objects that map databases tend to have lots of slots. 16:53:48 I don't, either 16:53:56 Hexstream: i have 1089 instance of it 16:54:09 I was really interested, i was just looking at it to see if i could try it 16:54:10 so far 16:54:11 *wasn't 16:54:21 Ok then, what is this class? What's the name and what does it do approximately? 16:54:45 Hexstream: it store information about tv-series episode 16:54:48 s 16:54:49 I guess I'll write the thing, and it might come in handy for someone, or it might not. 16:55:09 Oh. So it's a database row class. Makes sense, that didn't immediately come to mind. 16:55:27 krzysz00: that's the spirit :) 16:55:42 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:56:18 pjb: I'm getting rid of this macbook soon, and then i can go back to pretending OS X doesn't exist 16:57:13 Hexstream: something like that 16:57:49 Frakk [~Frakk@host162-250-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:59:25 mk2 [~user@159.92.65.56] has joined #lisp 16:59:39 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 17:00:49 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:04 drdo: I have been pretending windows and appleos doesn't exists for years and years. It works very well. :) 17:03:12 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 17:03:36 *prxq* seconds schme 17:03:58 i can pretend everything i don't need doesn't exist 17:04:08 schme: Yes, i have too, i just made the dumb mistake of buying a macbook some months ago 17:04:22 drdo: That's odd though. I have heard great things about 'em. 17:04:30 stassats: unfortunately, I haven't reached that high a level of illumination 17:04:34 schme: OS X is horrible 17:04:36 some people pretend Lisp doesn't exist 17:04:38 drdo: have you been reading MacOSX developer documentation? 17:04:38 drdo: I have much respect for the local apple-store. They recommended me to *not* buy a mac. 17:04:43 and linux doesn't run properly 17:04:59 linux doesn't run properly?? 17:05:00 pjb: No, and i'm not going to, the whole system stinks 17:05:02 drdo: linux on that box? 17:05:06 prxq: yes 17:05:17 on this macbook there's quite a few problems 17:05:19 some people pretend this channel isn't about Lisp 17:05:26 stassats: (: 17:05:35 -!- Frakk [~Frakk@host162-250-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Frakk] 17:05:46 is it about lisp? 17:05:54 who decided that? 17:05:56 stassats: Ok, sorry, we'll not talk so you can have uninterrupted leave/join messages 17:05:59 i think i'll pretend everybody has a fantastic and positive mood 17:06:15 /ignore joins+parts. that's the key to IRC. 17:06:24 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:55 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:07:07 Oh. It would seem I can use amex to pay for land of lisp :) 17:07:37 Better than visa or master card... 17:07:48 I cancelled my mastercard some days back. 17:07:53 Operation Payback is over 17:07:58 You can use mastercard now 17:07:59 :P 17:08:03 What's "operation payback" ? 17:08:06 i went fighting with some windmills instead 17:08:28 schme: You have to have been living under a rock to not know that :P 17:08:42 My problem seems to be that the local bookstore seems to not sell land of lisp no more. 17:08:52 It has been reported over and over, even on mainstream media 17:08:55 drdo: I just searched all the newssites I read and there's not one mention of it. 17:09:16 It was on BBC world news tv channel the whole freaking day for 3-4 days 17:09:18 probably still is 17:09:30 Well maybe if I start watching TV. 17:09:40 Hell, if you google it 17:09:45 The first link is a wikipedia link 17:09:58 oh 17:10:02 schme: readers digest and national geographic? :-) 17:10:08 it's the idiots who thought ddosing a website would take down mastercard. 17:10:14 they did 17:10:19 ... 17:10:22 they took down the website. 17:10:40 going to the store and buying your groceries with your mastercard still worked just fine. 17:10:42 no, online transactions were affected too 17:11:10 right. so no real loss there for mastercard or anyone. 17:11:18 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:24 if real life transactions had been affected I'm sure they'd be mighty pissed. 17:11:35 prxq: Never heard of those either. 17:11:45 pretty sure stopping online transactions for several hours affected them quite a bit 17:11:50 Why? 17:11:57 people just delay their transactions for some hours. 17:12:06 Anyway, the point of the whole thing was to show people are unhappy 17:12:11 #lispcafe is over there ---> 17:12:19 hey good plan, Fade ! 17:13:30 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:41 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:19:04 -!- pebkc [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:19 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 17:25:36 -!- wolfbytes [~wolfbytes@c-24-125-60-18.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 17:27:09 carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.193] has joined #lisp 17:27:52 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:28:05 srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:55 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:33:10 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:34:25 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:35:35 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:36:04 -!- jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:42:25 rfg [~rfg@81.102.104.31] has joined #lisp 17:43:20 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@172.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 17:44:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-96.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:46:11 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 17:46:19 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:48 morning 17:48:00 hi slyrus 17:48:13 hey slyrus 17:48:32 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 17:49:22 anything new and/or exciting? 17:50:02 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 17:54:47 -!- horze [~kim@c-0b1072d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: horze] 17:55:00 horze [~kim@c-0b1072d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:56:47 annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:51 benny [~benny@i577A7955.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:57:45 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo_] 17:58:08 -!- horze [~kim@c-0b1072d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 17:59:42 aack` [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:59:48 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:58 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:07 -!- aack [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:37 urandom__ [~user@p548A7587.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:19 _janos_ [~janos@S01060014bff3e1ab.vs.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:31 gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-6-248-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:53 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 18:08:11 -!- _janos_ is now known as Number7 18:08:43 didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:10:15 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:10:51 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:48 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:19:18 -!- krzysz00 [~user@pool-71-252-233-89.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:46 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25:54 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-147-222.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit:    .    ...] 18:27:33 iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:52 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-169-59.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:31:57 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:36:35 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-147-222.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 18:40:07 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:37 I'm testing the performance difference between using conses and CLOS objects to represent events in a simulation. The biggest hit seems to be the switch from functions to methods to access the event properties. I'm assuming that's the method dispatching. Is there any way to mitigate that? 18:42:12 austinh: What implementation? 18:42:16 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-16-251.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:42:17 SBCL 18:42:26 Do you use accessors or slot-value? 18:42:46 I've written an accessor that uses slot-value. 18:43:24 austinh: Try using :accessor and :reader instead. It used to make a difference, but perhaps no more. 18:43:52 mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:59 I'm using Nikodemus's Pileup heap implementation and most of the CPU time is spent checking the time of the event. 18:44:05 thanks, I'll try that 18:44:27 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:44:43 austinh: I haven't actually checked this, so I may be wrong. If an SBCL hacker says otherwise, he is the one to believe. 18:44:47 lispm [~lispm@g224120085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:58 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:46:06 -!- pepone [~pepone@135.246.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:47:20 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:45 -!- churib [~tg@dslc-082-082-099-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:48:15 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:28 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.248] has joined #lisp 18:50:27 s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:50:28 beach: I believe there was a small improvement. 18:51:15 maybe 8-10%, in my test 18:51:37 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Slot-access 18:53:06 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:53:19 thanks stassats, I had read that before but forgotten about it. 18:56:55 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:57:58 joswig [~lispm@g224120085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:58 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224120085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:13 It sounds like performance might be suffering because the heap uses the accessor as a key function, if I understand this SBCL manual correctly. 19:01:08 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:46 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:01:53 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:05:26 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:05:57 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-75-154.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:06:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 19:08:04 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:31 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-75-154.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:08:44 Hey all, I'm have a bit of a problem with classes 19:08:50 I define a class with some accessors in a package - great 19:09:22 But then I pass an instance to a function which is from another package, and within that other package, I can't use the accessors 19:09:44 seangrove: have you exported the symbols of the accessors to that other package? 19:09:57 madnificent: No, I was wondering if this is how it should be done 19:09:59 seangrove: I'm getting deja vu, I think you had a problem a few weeks ago about not exporting symbols too :) 19:10:11 oconnore: Very, very likely :) 19:10:36 Alright, sounds good 19:10:38 so yes, you need to export the accessors, or always use (package::accessor instance) 19:10:41 seangrove: try to make a clear separation in your head between the symbols and the methods/functions/variables connected to them 19:10:48 but also, you should read up on packages so this doesn't happen again :) 19:10:55 madnificent: I think I'm almost there... 19:11:02 oconnore: :: isn't a good thing to do (yes, it works) 19:12:08 madnificent: yeah, i guess i shouldn't be recommending that. I was just trying to demonstrate what it does. 19:13:06 oconnore: no, I don't think it's bad at all. I think it just needed a disclaimer 19:13:20 seangrove: everything is connected to symbols. The question is, how do you get the right symbol 19:13:35 *seangrove* is listening intently 19:13:43 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:50 seangrove: you can get the exported symbol foo from package bar by entering foo:bar 19:14:00 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.248] has joined #lisp 19:14:11 sigh 19:14:13 bar:foo 19:14:14 sorry 19:14:32 or you can :use package bar in the definition of the package you're currently working in and just type foo 19:14:47 the symbol foo has been interned in your current package 19:14:52 Sounds right... 19:15:18 if you have a class named foo and an accessor named foo, you only need to export foo once. See, once you have the symbol, you can use it for any purpose you'd like 19:15:57 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 19:16:16 now, say you need a symbol that wasn't exported... you can still do it. Normally unexported symbols represent the internal working of a package, therefore you should stay away. Use bar::bang to use the unexported symbol bang from package bar. 19:16:42 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.191.156] has joined #lisp 19:17:20 you can think of :keywords as using a symbol from a package with an empty name 19:17:32 seangrove: does that make sense? 19:18:10 More or less... 19:18:22 The part with a call named foo and an accessor named foo, seems strange 19:18:28 I thought a symbol points to some value 19:18:40 seangrove: various things can be connected to a symbol 19:18:48 To the same symbol? 19:18:53 From the same package? 19:19:16 for instance (defclass foo () ()) creates a class named foo 19:19:32 you need to be able to connect to the symbol foo, in order to create an object of that class 19:20:00 however, you can also define a function foo by (defun foo () nil) 19:20:32 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:33 once you have access to the symbol foo, you can use it both to create a new object (make-instance 'foo) and to call the function foo (foo) 19:21:15 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.248] has joined #lisp 19:22:11 seangrove: so basically, a symbol can stand for various things. 'foo stands for the symbol foo. However (foo) will call the function connected to the symbol foo. And (make-instance 'foo) will try to make an instance of the class, which is connected to the symbol foo 19:23:06 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:23:55 seangrove: packages just make sure you're talking about the correct symbols. What you're doing with them is of no concern. 19:24:44 Ah, ok 19:24:50 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:24:57 So lisp internally is able to discern which value I mean to use from the symbol 19:25:07 #'foo disambiguates it enough 19:25:09 etc. 19:25:22 packages are something having effect at read time 19:25:24 later not 19:25:39 once you got a symbol, it is a symbol and stays a symbol 19:26:05 changing packages, then does not have an effect at a symbol 19:26:08 seangrove: I think you understand it :) 19:26:41 code also does not know what the value of *package* was at compilation when the code runs at runtime 19:26:58 Crazy... 19:27:06 Thanks for taking the time to explain it :) 19:27:15 thanks for learning lisp :) 19:27:25 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:27:26 the symbol has a connection to 1 or 0 packages 19:27:41 this is independent of the value of *packages* 19:28:01 each symbol points to a package and that is fixed, until you change it 19:28:17 the symbol is 'interned' in a package in Lisp-speak 19:28:17 joswig: That makes sense.. *package* is more of a convenience for writing-time rather than run-time 19:29:00 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:29:05 the *package* variable says which is the default package to put a symbol into, when the source does not contain a package:symbol combination, but just the symbol 19:29:44 the *package* variable thus has effect at readtime, but not at runtime 19:30:20 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 19:30:38 can I wrap a defun in a let? 19:30:54 you can, but it is bad style 19:31:11 I want to do something like this: 19:32:33 (defmacro def-foo (name x) `(defun ,name (y) (let ((q (do-some-calculation ,x))) (do-stuff-with-q)))) 19:32:51 But I don't want q to be recalculated every time the function is called 19:33:08 (of course, q would be gensym'd in real code) 19:33:23 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:34:38 necroforest: (do-some-calculation x) can't be done at compiletime? 19:34:57 *madnificent* has done the let trick for performance reasons 19:34:57 no 19:35:09 necroforest, that's possible 19:35:13 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 19:35:26 the only way i can think of is to wrap the defun in a let 19:36:19 not sure I understand it. In your example the LET is inside the DEFUN 19:36:25 yes 19:36:28 that's no problem 19:36:30 -!- rfg [~rfg@81.102.104.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:36:41 so every time the function is called, it will call (do-calculation x) to populate foo 19:36:46 err, to populate q 19:36:58 yes 19:37:01 i only want that to be called once 19:37:14 (kind of like a static variable in C?) 19:37:26 sure, move the comma a bit 19:37:41 yes, but we're assuming you can't call do-calculation at compile time 19:37:49 necroforest: you can also use a global variable for it... then it will be available for other functions as well 19:38:21 madnificent, yeah, but this is wrapped in a macro - i'm goign to be defining a bunch of different functions using this, with different x parameters 19:38:23 necroforest: either case, you're allowed to put the let binding around your function denifition(s) 19:38:24 if you have to assume it, just call it at runtime and check if it has been set or not 19:39:11 joswig: if you surround the function definition with the let-binding, the let is populated when the code is loaded, therefore it will always be set 19:41:35 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:41:57 powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-4-247.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:57 -!- gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-6-248-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 19:42:58 rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-172-43.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:57 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:30 gigamonkey: pick one: binary-data, monkeylib-binary-data, com.gigamonkeys.binary-data :) 19:49:13 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.96.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:49:47 and, not to throw stones in this glass house, but id3v2 is named "id3", version "1.0"... 19:50:58 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.98.10] has joined #lisp 19:51:50 daniel [~daniel@p5B32648E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:17 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B3262C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:52:49 necroforest: Couldn't you just memoize the function? 19:53:18 If it's referentially transparent anyway, it makes sense 19:58:54 oconnore [~eric@wsip-70-168-242-70.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:14 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-172-43.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:33 rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-172-43.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:19 -!- phaer [~user@chello080108090109.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:03:08 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:03:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.202.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:04:17 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-169-59.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:04:40 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-202-226.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:50 Apparently not... :P 20:09:41 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD951FA6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:09:42 sabayonuser [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:43 Frakk [~Frakk@host162-250-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:16:25 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E269DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:48 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:22:16 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:22:42 francogrex [~user@109.130.71.157] has joined #lisp 20:24:29 redline6561 [~redline@173.160.64.57] has joined #lisp 20:24:50 Has anyone tried the building of cl on iphone or windows mobile? (There were rumors that it was done...) 20:29:56 some people ported ecls to iphone 20:30:19 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw305048.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:21 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755229.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:30 the current ecls head should've also gotten a few patches that simplify porting to ARM 20:31:20 ok,.. and while googling now i saw something called "Ufasoft Common Lisp Studio 4.29" first time i hear of this 20:31:55 supposed to work on windows mobile if one believes what they say... 20:31:56 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-82.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:32:41 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:32:43 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-10.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:33:53 pepone [~pepone@135.246.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:35:14 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-82.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:36:10 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:32 Genosh [~Genosh@153.Red-88-24-212.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:16 -!- sacho_ is now known as sacho 20:44:29 francogrex: abcl runs on N800 (nokia) too. However, it takes 25 minutes to boot... 20:44:41 (well, not that bad, actually, only 10) 20:44:58 we defined that as "not working" 20:45:15 however, with a commercial perspective, we could have called it working. 20:45:30 ehu, why so long? 20:45:32 we should have defined at is "unusable" instead, in that case. 20:46:02 you know .. ABCL boots in three differnt modes.. 20:46:12 guther: because of the processor speed. and also: there's no way to store images in Java. 20:46:30 so, every time it boots, it needs to run code to get it in a Lisp-usuable state. 20:46:44 creating lots of symbols 20:46:46 packages 20:46:47 etc. 20:46:47 basically core.lsp vs core.jar 20:47:16 ehu: how much of that time is class file loading, and how much is java code running to initialize data structures? 20:47:24 i forget where the third comes in.. but if for instance the .abcl files somehow are not felt right.. it reverts to .lsp right? 20:47:30 (in core) 20:47:58 lichtblau: if my profiling on a "bigger" processor is correct, class file loading is 60% of the time. 20:48:13 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:14 ehu: 25 min! by the time it's almost working the device runs out of battery! 20:48:17 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:48:19 lichtblau: clojure seems to have found a way around that. 20:48:30 ehu and 98% of that time is in defineCl;ass0? 20:48:32 francogrex: well, I exagerated. it's 10. 20:48:43 dmiles_afk: yes. 20:49:07 lichtblau: I think we can achieve the same level of workaround 20:49:28 lichtblau: which would save 50-60% of the boot time. 20:49:38 (by adding abcl.jar to the boot classpath, instead of the normal classpath) 20:49:44 that skips class verification. 20:49:59 it might be time to notice when there is aoverlap in compiled closures 20:50:26 dmiles_afk: ? you mean two lambda's doing the same thing? 20:50:30 or times when they can be totally eliminated 20:50:34 tyes 20:50:36 dmiles_afk: how often would you expect that? 20:50:38 yes 20:50:41 -!- redline6561 [~redline@173.160.64.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:51:13 dmiles_afk: actually, our approach was to generate better inlining :-) 20:51:21 well the really simple lambda ones i bet are identical sometimes 20:51:36 yeah thats is more preodcutive to inline them out 20:52:10 I'm asking because some time ago I tried serializing lots of Java objects into a custom binary format, and reading them back. I found Java to be extremely fast at instantiating large numbers of objects. 20:52:10 if possoble.. i am very shure that if you port partial.eval for dwim.hu to ABCL.. 20:52:20 that was SBCLs biggest win 20:53:04 is why IMO that SBCL seems tokick pants off of anything 20:53:08 lichtblau: it is. the problem is that we're loading the code (class files), not only the data. 20:53:44 So in a sense, "core" file loading in Java wouldn't be slow. But my objects were all instances of the same few classes. So if you're actually waiting for class loading in the real, low-level VM sense (as opposed to having long-running static initializers), it obviously wouldn't help. 20:54:44 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:54:45 there seem to be two problems in our boot process: it looks like our loader might be a bit slow 20:54:47 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 20:54:58 and then we're waiting for class verification. 20:55:15 unfortunately, the latter seems to be truely dominating. 20:55:30 which can be worked-around using the boot-classpath stuff. 20:55:35 however, 20:55:54 you can't influence that on say GoogleAppEngine for example. 20:56:23 you can install your own verifier right? 20:56:39 meaning there's very little added benefit, other than for command line users. 20:56:42 dmiles_afk: uh? 20:56:48 how? 20:56:49 -!- LinGmnZ [~LinGmnZ@ppp-58-8-207-28.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:34 LinGmnZ [~LinGmnZ@ppp-115-87-215-198.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 20:58:00 well, I can't imagine we can be quicker than what Java itself does... 20:58:08 (apart from skipping...) 20:59:29 grabbing the refernce to changing out the verifier.. or disabling 21:02:07 zophy [~sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:10 dmiles_afk: I think the only way for us to be faster within the "rules" is to use the Java6 class file format with the verifying verifier (as opposed to the inferencing verifier in <=java5) 21:02:45 you've tried the -noverify / 21:02:47 you've tried the -noverify ? 21:04:16 i gues if you can do -noverify than just as easy to do -Xbootcxlasspath 21:04:44 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:45 but i have replaced the verifier before like in 2004.. it had something to so with the jdwp 21:05:00 well, I think the former will also work for classes outside the bootclasspath, which means all classes loaded from byte-arrays. 21:05:06 (ie most of ABCL's) 21:10:06 in order for AOP to work.. there was a project that replaced the default java verifier 21:10:18 (is what i am looking for) 21:12:20 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@212-183-43-137.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:12:26 lichtblau: abcl needs to tokenize the texty fasls on bootup too. I've been thinking of creating a reader which takes a pre-tokenized input stream. That would allow skipping much of the "token type detection" functionality. However, before going through something that elaborate, I decided to accept the (on my PC 3.5) seconds it takes to start ABCL. The only issue I have is that Google seems to 21:12:26 take up to 12 seconds... 21:12:39 which is a bit much on the first request. 21:12:42 It seems to me that either the -Xbootclasspath/a option does not really help (on Windows though) or I may be doing something wrong. 21:13:07 Genosh: it doesn't help too much. 21:13:34 The interesting bit is that the low-level initialization really is faster, but after that the time is pretty much the same. 21:13:34 because it only works for a specific base set of classes. ABCL generates lots of classes itself. 21:13:48 (and unfortunately low-level initialization doesn't account for much of the time) 21:13:50 those are still verified, because they're loaded from memory. 21:14:15 question .. when ABCL is ing its suing readers.. and using reader in ABCL is done in a nondeterminstic way that uses exceptions for singnalling 21:14:47 for examp[le when tryign to choose between float prepresentaions it uses exceptions 21:15:06 it does? 21:15:13 or even distinguishing between floats and ints 21:15:13 where? 21:15:26 Double.parseFlaot 21:15:32 ah. 21:15:32 ok. 21:15:40 well, 21:15:51 this seems like alot of machinery to activate durrin g classload time 21:15:59 those issues were not in my profile output. 21:16:10 so, I don't think this is one of the biggest issues. 21:16:14 -!- joswig [~lispm@g224120085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:50 -!- nmg [~nick@dsl78-143-206-229.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:17:04 well i think those things contribute to defineDlasw0 time 21:17:17 well i think those things contribute to defineClass0 time 21:17:19 hmm. 21:17:46 (and Integer.parseInt / Bignum.getInstance) 21:17:50 since its workign thru several initiizations 21:18:15 but currently, most of our initializations are actually in constructors, at least for compiled-from-lisp classes. 21:18:29 (yes, my plan is to move them, but they're not yet moved) 21:18:48 and they are loading from each compiled-from-lisp ? 21:18:51 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@212-183-42-232.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:19:02 since those fcolasses are ussing other parts of the lib? 21:19:44 the reader has been removed from the loading process for basic argument lists. 21:19:55 they get compiled these days. 21:19:58 is that your question? 21:20:29 ok yeah it was specifically he argument string i was wondering about 21:20:30 -!- onteria [~onteria@rrcs-74-62-144-90.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ] 21:21:06 thats good.. so you use Cons.makeCons(Lisp.getIntger(..) int he copiled things? 21:21:44 in the compiled constructors of the sublcasdses of Primitive 21:21:55 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21:56 (instead of stings) 21:22:26 -!- oconnore [~eric@wsip-70-168-242-70.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:22:31 (instead of strings like super("THISTHING","(ARG1 ARG2)"); ) 21:22:47 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@32-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 21:23:11 -!- sabayonuser is now known as osoleve 21:23:46 heh. 21:23:52 actuall, it seems I'm mistaken. 21:24:02 would be super(Symbol.intern("THISTHING"), Cons.list(Suymbol.intern("ARG1"),Symbol.intern("ARG2"))) 21:24:16 It generates it, but only in certain cases. 21:25:43 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 21:26:16 oconnore [~eric@wsip-70-168-242-70.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:12 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.71.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:51 dmiles_afk: that's what it should be, yes. 21:28:06 minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:24 although I doubt that that's the true issue. 21:28:39 there's a lot of reading of the actual fasl (which is text too) 21:29:18 -!- tib [~tl@89.180.128.252] has left #lisp 21:30:20 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-218.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:07 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:38 ak70 [~ak70@46.11.10.227] has joined #lisp 21:34:53 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:00 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-4-247.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 21:38:09 -!- Number7 [~janos@S01060014bff3e1ab.vs.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:38:55 -!- ak70 [~ak70@46.11.10.227] has quit [Client Quit] 21:41:34 -!- Frakk [~Frakk@host162-250-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Frakk] 21:42:32 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:44:49 jeti [~user@62-87-23-174.red-acceso.airtel.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:16 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:47:25 How can I skip a value in map instead of returning nil? 21:47:43 I'm removing items from a list, but I get a bunch of nils where the item was.. I'd rather there were only the remaining items 21:48:07 seangrove: run it through REMOVE additionally? 21:48:25 ehu: I thought that might be it, wasn't sure though 21:48:35 or run it through "remove-if" to begin with? 21:48:40 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:46 ok. 21:48:52 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 21:50:42 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:51:03 with mapcan you can filter a list. See clhs for examples. 21:51:48 gigamonkey: around? 21:53:36 powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-4-247.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:05 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-114-251.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:54:22 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:21 seangrove: (series:map-fn t #'1+ (series:choose-if #'identity (series:make-series 1 2 nil 3 nil 4))) 21:56:50 what was the way to get a .pdf version of CLHS? not that $30 rip-off though 22:04:49 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-4-247.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 22:06:32 z0d: i presume you can hack together a script to convert all html pages to pdf and concatenate that 22:06:57 or at least go first htlm to latex, so that you keep the links 22:07:07 (just brainstorming here) 22:10:16 What does lisp have for html scraping/selection/manipulation these days? 22:10:40 -!- osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:12:18 FareWell [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has joined #lisp 22:12:25 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:14:28 jesusabdullah: what do you want to do? 22:15:35 parse HTML I guess 22:18:47 -!- oconnore [~eric@wsip-70-168-242-70.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18:48 is clicki dead? 22:18:57 prxq: probably. 22:19:02 cliki.net on the other hand... 22:19:05 not from here. 22:19:11 right. 22:19:13 cliki.net 22:19:15 ah it's cliki, not clicki 22:19:20 yo 22:19:39 jesusabdullah: you may find some stuff in cliki.net 22:20:07 sure 22:20:50 I was thinking something along the lines of the kinda things you would do with jquery, hpricot, beautiful soup, that whole general lump of things 22:21:06 Think like, "find these divs that fit these criteria and do something with them" 22:23:31 jesusabdullah: normally, we'd use a lib that transforms the stuff into s-exprs, and the go medieval on that. 22:24:31 it's just searching on trees, no? 22:24:45 jimrthy [~jimrthy@ip68-13-249-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:51 jesusabdullah: I have used closure-html for good effect 22:25:34 jesusabdullah: there's another library (whose name I forgot) that lets you select elements really easily. let me look it up. 22:26:14 oh yeah, cxml-stp. see http://common-lisp.net/project/closure/closure-html/examples.html for some nice examples. 22:26:38 prxq: cliki -> CL [w]iki 22:27:21 Quadrescence: doesn't help. cliki's original maintainer wrote an article titled "cliki here" for linux user & developer. now nobody knows how to spell it anymore. 22:28:01 ha 22:28:04 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-168-82.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:29:23 prxq: medieval? I like that 22:29:30 well, i knew the etymological roots of cliki, but my fingers had a differing opinion :-) 22:29:32 gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-6-248-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:09 Reminds me of my experience with one of the popular parsers for node.js 22:30:20 It turns it into a tree, but it's painful to work with 22:30:26 I bet s-expressions are more betters 22:31:39 jesusabdullah: yeah, check out closure-html and cxml-stp. they make working with DOMs pretty pleasant 22:32:18 Cool 22:32:47 Oh, nice examples 22:32:49 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:39 *rtoym* speeds up compiling cmucl by almost a factor of 2 on sparc. Because he was previously stupid. 22:38:56 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo_] 22:39:24 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:39:31 rtoym: when's the next release of SERIES ? we want more features 22:40:49 -!- LinGmnZ [~LinGmnZ@ppp-115-87-215-198.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41:07 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 22:41:18 LinGmnZ [~LinGmnZ@ppp-61-90-8-24.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 22:41:52 mitre [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:42 fe[nl]ix: I hadn't planned on anything. What more new features do you want? 22:46:30 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:47:34 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:48:42 super` [~super_@pool-173-78-145-82.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:00 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:49:53 rtoym: btw, something that really would be practical (for me as a matlisp user) would be the application of the 0-sized matrices patch... 22:50:11 oh and oct worked beautifully! 22:50:15 -!- Lochy [~lochy@59.94.98.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:51:17 prxq: Cool! Was it fast enough? 22:51:25 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:30 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:51:58 prxq: 0-sized matrices patch? I don't remember that. But you want to be able to have 0x0 matrices? 22:52:27 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.99.83] has joined #lisp 22:53:19 a friend of mine is looking for a hacker to crawl resumes on the web for his startup 22:53:38 rtoym: yes, it was fast enough 22:54:02 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55:37 -!- drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:56:42 rtoym: i use some fortran software that likes them zero sized for some things. For example, a sero-sized matrix for the inequality constraints means no inequality constraints. Of course, we could just work around the issue with an if 22:59:54 rtoym: can't find the patch right now 23:00:15 -!- super` [~super_@pool-173-78-145-82.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:00:35 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 23:01:32 prxq: Shouldn't be too hard to add that. I'll look into that. Do you only want 0x0 or other things like mx0 and 0xn? 23:02:17 rtoym: there's a patch somewhere that does that. I've got it from a mail, and it applies cleanly. I think it does all three. 23:02:41 from a mail in a mailing list. I thought it was matlisp-devel 23:05:38 rtoym: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=1124576 23:06:05 i have it applied, and it doesn't seem to cause any trouble. 23:07:43 Thanks for the link. I'll apply it soon. This takes a bit of time because the only machine where my fortran compiler actually works is a slow sparc. 23:08:44 I see there's also a nice patch so allow matlab 1:5 notation but using 1 | 5. 23:09:18 drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 23:09:23 oho 23:09:25 I think 1 .. 5 would be nicer. 23:10:17 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:12:17 xan_ [~xan@26.Red-88-24-228.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:19 [OT] can anyone recommend a decent html editor? 23:14:43 prxq: emacs with nxhtml-mode 23:15:59 *prxq* was using compozer but it has bugs 23:16:08 kompozer 23:17:07 replete [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:00 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:13 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-165-58.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:19:25 prxq: The patch to matrix.lisp applies fine, but not to print.lisp. 23:20:07 Oh. Because it looks like it was already applied. 23:20:26 only to print.lisp? 23:20:35 Yes. 23:22:18 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 23:22:36 *rtoym* tries to build matlisp with the patch. 23:24:15 *FareWell* read the docs of sheeple; the defreply protocol isn't really documented, and neither are before/after methods. 23:24:31 mheld [~mheld@c-24-91-23-221.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:54 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:26:05 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:31 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:39 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-116-48.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:34:24 How can i get the value of a cstruct char* using cffi 23:36:08 -!- jeti [~user@62-87-23-174.red-acceso.airtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:15 jeti [~user@62-87-23-174.red-acceso.airtel.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:29 -!- jeti [~user@62-87-23-174.red-acceso.airtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:39 -!- FareWell [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:39:54 pepone: foreign-slot-value 23:41:37 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E269DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:42:18 fe[nl]ix: I try that, (cffi:foreign-slot-value ifa :char 'name) but doesn't work 23:45:33 pepone: the second argument to f-s-v must be the type of the struct, not of the slot 23:45:43 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 23:47:11 churib [~tg@dslc-082-082-099-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:28 prxq: How do you make a 0x0 matrix? make-real-matrix? That seems to work with the patch. As does (make-real-matrix 0 3). But 3x0 causes an error. 23:48:27 *rtoym* bbl 23:49:21 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.248] has joined #lisp 23:52:23 -!- aack` [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:49 Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.163.233] has joined #lisp 23:54:27 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:55:16 thanks fe[nl]ix, that works, and give me a pointer, i try foreign-string-to-lisp to convert it, but that fails with a UTF-8 decoding error, need to figure out what i have done wrong 23:56:06 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:28 -!- minsa [~minsa@c-24-5-121-157.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:58:09 kanru [~kanru@61-228-158-122.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:16 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-114-251.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:58:35 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:59:03 i trying to call getifaddrs that receives a , struct ifaddrs **, i have craeted a cffi-grovel definition for the struct, and defcfun for getifaddrs, the i do the call with , (cffi:with-foreign-pointer (ifa (cffi:foreign-type-size :pointer) size)