00:00:05 where X is a macro. 00:00:35 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-213-43.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 00:01:15 allows you to link to a library and not have to call the C compiler when you want to use the macro. 00:01:24 So it's not really a library for fixing broken posix functions, it's a library for making a lisp wrapper with CFFI. 00:01:41 its name made it sound more general than that 00:01:45 a library to fix broken posix apis. 00:02:11 exporting macros and no functions is one breakage. Functions misimplemented (like spawn) is another. 00:02:59 hopefully, we can also paper over some of the signal horror. 00:03:01 eh. spawn's biggest problem is its existence. :P 00:03:03 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 00:03:26 how would you provide a similar API? Just fork and exec? 00:03:48 mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@64.246.201.118] has joined #lisp 00:05:02 Yeah; fork+exec are the right building blocks. I do admit they're somewhat difficult to use, and a convenience wrapper on top is an okay thing to provide. 00:05:52 is there any reason not to reset all signals to default behaviour (by default) in our lfp_spawn? 00:05:53 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-89-222.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:05:58 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-213-43.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:06:28 oh man, a pselect wrapper that falls back to calling pthread_sigmask around select? That's a terrible idea! 00:07:19 do I sense disapproval there ? 00:07:32 I hope that's never actually used, because everything provides pselect anyways 00:07:39 but if it is, it defeats the whole purpose 00:08:25 -!- jeti [~user@p54B46B0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:09:28 openbsd doesn't have pselect 00:09:31 As to signals: resetting them all to defaults might not be the best idea, if someone actually intended for one to be ignored in the process subtree; I'm not sure I know of a usecase for that though. 00:09:52 Fare: what if some signal is already used by something else? 00:10:21 IMHO, no library should change signal handling without BIG FUCKING WARNING and RALLY GOOD REASON to do so. 00:10:41 This is signal handling in the subprocess before it's invoked 00:10:48 after you fork, before you exec 00:11:02 you probably don't want to leave SIGCHLD blocked, for example. 00:11:08 foom: for subprocess it makes sense 00:11:19 that's what the question was about 00:11:41 hm. Good for openbsd for not having pselect. :) 00:11:51 I don't think there's ever actually a real need for it 00:11:55 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:12:06 foom: it depends 00:12:12 AFAIK you can do everything just with a self-pipe added to the select set. 00:12:34 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:57 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:10 foom: btw, SIGCHLD is implicitly rset by execve() 00:13:13 *reset 00:13:29 no it's not 00:13:35 it's undefined whether it's reset or not, in POSIX 00:13:36 ah, it's undefined 00:13:43 mixed two manpages 00:14:13 foom: I wouldn't program for openbsd, but AFAICT openbsd had the best routing/firewalling/qos stack of all free *nix clones 00:15:55 btw, what about using posix_spawn() in place of exec? 00:15:55 foom: if programs in the process tree have that, shouldn't all the processes know about it, and the current one be able to override explicitly the signal mask? 00:16:17 All I'm saying is that *by default*, all signals should be reset in the child. 00:16:28 Fare: I mean, you might set SIGINT to be ignored when running a subprocess of your interactive program 00:16:34 so that control-c doesn't kill stuff 00:16:48 p_l|backup, posix_spawn has a basic good idea, incompletely specified, and buggily implemented. 00:17:04 foom: is SIGINT sent if you're not on tty? 00:17:11 (by C-c, that is) 00:17:16 -!- trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-137-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:17:20 I'm not sure if that's actually a thing that anyone does, or if it even makes sense, but that's just the question I had. 00:17:32 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:17:53 foom: and then you want it to be implicitly inherited instead of explicitly set? :-/ 00:17:53 p_l|backup: it's sent to the foreground process group I think 00:18:03 the whole signal thing stinks. 00:18:10 foom: then it wouldn't get sent to the subprocess, afaik 00:18:26 p_l|backup: why not? subprocesses don't get a new process group (unless you gave it one) 00:18:59 afaik it is send only to the process that owns the TTY that got the escape sequence, but I'll have to check 00:19:06 -!- sanchaz-away is now known as sanchaz 00:19:25 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:19:48 Fare: unfortunately, the better system comes from an OS that is probably culturally incompatible with New Jersey style (aka Uni) 00:19:51 *Unix 00:20:02 you mean, Windows? 00:20:18 the whole controlling tty, process groups, and sessions mechanism is a complete disaster 00:20:35 I think it was just like an overnight hack by someone who wanted to add control-z to their shell 00:21:05 -!- mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@64.246.201.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:21:41 rpg and I had a discussion about how to support or not support future extensions to the ASDF configuration DSLs. Should ASDF error out, cerror out, or just warn, when encountering an invalid keyword? 00:21:54 currently, it errors out, which is not forward-compatible. 00:21:55 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:34 I think cerror sounds like a sensible thing to do. Just use real condition classes, not error strings. 00:22:35 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:22:40 :allow-other-keywords t? :) 00:22:44 rpg says it should cerror, so a developer can fix things at the repl, I say it should warn, so a script can rely on an older asdf being able to load the newer asdf that can handle the new stuff. 00:22:44 haha 00:23:16 anyone tried coding lisp with proportional antialiased fonts? 00:23:17 Another thing that might be useful would be having a list of keywords and versions in which they're supported, online 00:23:18 Fare: I'd vote for error 00:23:24 the problem with error or cerror is that current scripts may have to handle future conditions. 00:23:36 Fare: I've run into some trouble with configuration dsl errors where the file that is the source of the error is not very obvious. 00:23:44 Fare: condition subtypes? 00:23:53 fe[nl]ix, then you can't use any new keyword until you've made sure all your implementations are updated. 00:24:00 dto: heh, I have. it didn't work out too well (: 00:24:14 dto: comments don't line up nicely. parens do, though (-: 00:24:32 okay. 00:24:35 no biggie :) 00:24:52 antifuchs: with luck i'll have new screenshots of my lisp color blocks coding ui thing 00:24:55 Xach: that's why my idea was (1) to warn loudly, (2) to amend the error message if there is a missing system when there was a configuration error. 00:25:00 with nesting :) 00:25:19 Just for the hell of it (I may have had a reason when I started, I don't remember), I'm trying to have a function return a key-value for another function call 00:25:23 dto: I was reading/writing a lot of old lisp code at the time, so prop fonts didn't work for me 00:25:31 e.g. (defun example (name &key (age 0)) ... 00:25:33 if you have code that you wrote yourself, that's cool, I'm sure (: 00:25:40 you get way longer lines that way (-: 00:25:45 And then (example "some-name" (funcall #'(lambda () (cons :aged 26)))) 00:26:01 It feels like strangely enough, it might be possible... 00:26:08 Fare: actually, Windows cribbed the whole thing from VMS then added POSIX-style handling in XP 00:26:15 hm, the allegro foreign function interface is growing on me 00:26:36 foom: just found it, and yes, the terminal interrupts get sent to the whole group... damn 00:26:37 def-foreign-call's :error-value :errno thing is really pretty convenient 00:26:43 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::2b:dbc8] has joined #lisp 00:27:01 Fare: by using a certain keyword arg to defsystem, the programmer is demanding a certain behaviour(whatever that may be). if ASDF just calls cl:warn, it breaks that contract 00:27:35 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.13.82] has joined #lisp 00:27:40 seangrove: (apply #'example "some-name" (list :age 26)) 00:28:39 -!- Cooler_ [~sabayonus@189-68-186-10.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:28:41 Fare: OTOH, VMS had a completely different API style 00:30:24 fe[nl]ix, the configuration language is initialized before you've had the opportunity to do any defsystem. 00:30:55 does anyone know if you can use cgroups as an unprivileged user? 00:30:55 the whole point of it is that it's needed to locate your systems and your fasls. 00:31:05 oh, you were referring to the configuration language, oops 00:31:07 foom: I think you can 00:31:11 they seem like a sane replacement for process groups, if you can actually use them. 00:31:26 foom: but you shouldn't mistake them for pgroups 00:31:53 there's a patch to one of schedulers that automatically places each process group into its cgroup, though 00:31:57 p_l|backup: I don't mistake them for pgroups, pgroups are horrible beasts that don't even let you reliably kill the processes in them. 00:33:33 antifuchs: allegro's def-foreign-call is a winner. :error-value is part of it, but my favorite is (or is about to be) :method-index (eg. c++, com) 00:33:44 -!- puddingpimp [~dave@118-93-165-184.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:33:46 pmd: oh yeah, that is excellent stuff (: 00:33:50 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:34:22 I agree that once you've reach the defsystem stage, the semantics should be well-defined, since by that time, you can have specified your version constraints 00:34:36 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:51 pmd: I'm looking into adding better C++ support to CFFI :) 00:35:09 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:36:26 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:36:34 p_l|backup: that's really nice. qt bindings should become alot easier with it, and i believe there are systems in gnome and kde similar to win32's com 00:36:34 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 00:37:59 pmd: both systems are deprecated, and the only one resembling COM was GNOME's Bonobo, which was pure CORBA 00:38:08 pmd: also, automatic string conversion for (* :char) function args (: 00:38:25 p_l|backup: what's more to c++ support than mangling and vtables? 00:38:28 DCOM actually originates from unix, and one can find the sources if digging long enough, but I had issues compiling them 00:38:37 pmd: exceptions 00:39:18 yeah, it'd be cool to have interoperability with C++ exceptions from lisp. :) 00:39:19 fe[nl]ix, so, knowing it's the configuration language, do you agree warning is a better idea? 00:39:28 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:39:29 -!- erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 00:39:31 antifuchs: that's nice most of the time: it either automatically converts using the default locale or you have to convert it yourself 00:39:38 right 00:39:48 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:55 cmsimon [~cmsimon@pool-98-108-146-154.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:55 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@pool-98-108-146-154.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:39:55 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 00:40:04 mangling is *easy*, vtables are just question of raping the compiler, exceptions... they currently implicitly work on SBCL/win32 with MSVC code, I think, but it's kinda because of how MSVC implements them :D 00:40:36 pmd: I used to prefer manually converting stuff, but for things like pathname namestrings (which are just useless with multiple encodings in cl anyway), it's really good (: 00:41:07 erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:41:14 the other thing that you need for C++ is support for templates. 00:41:16 ha ha 00:41:25 p_l|backup: hm... exceptions... that's really a hard one, there's no standard there, is there? i mean, i believe that even msvc's exception handling isn't documented 00:41:33 pmd: it's documented 00:41:43 Fare: I think I'd still make that a cerror: "Unknown directive detected. You probably have to load a newer version of ASDF" 00:41:52 pmd: there are standards, they're just not universal 00:42:19 jimrthy [~jimrthy@ip68-13-249-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:21 pmd: lots of unixes use the same exception mechanism (based off of the IA64 ABI) 00:42:42 foom: basically, you must target a specific compiler when defining a foreign c++ foreign call, right? 00:42:47 Fare: I hate programs that warn about invalid configurations and then go on to do whatever they want. 00:43:07 Fare: so I would prefer an error on an incompatible configuration. 00:43:13 foom: btw, were you serious about templates? 00:43:36 pmd: yes, templates are very important for C++ support. How do you use a vector without them? 00:43:39 pmd: MSVC's is kinda documented, but for completely different reasons 00:44:13 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:22 pmd: of course, implementing such support is essentially impossible, but that doesn't make it not needed. :P 00:44:24 as for unices, most compilers use IA64 C++ ABI so that they can claim "100% GCC compatibilitiy" 00:44:44 foom: ... templates are slightly harder than mangling, but below vtables 00:44:45 antifuchs: the only inconvenience is that converting acl's 16-bit strings to 8-bit native strings (assuming a locale iso-latin-1) seems... :p 00:45:10 antifuchs, usually, I agree with you 00:45:29 the reason why I think differently about asdf is that asdf needs to be able to load the next version of asdf. 00:45:37 foom: since templates don't exist in binary 00:45:45 Fare: you mean bootstrapping? (: 00:45:49 yup 00:46:07 p_l|backup: how does that make them easier? You need a C++ compiler... 00:46:08 Fare: I think that is a sort of special case for which you shouldn't make the user carry the burden (: 00:46:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-231.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:38 pmd: MSVC afaik simply maps C++ exceptions into system-wide exception system (SEH) 00:47:13 foom: simple - it's just a specific mangling scheme, since you can't instantiate them in runtime anyway (without dynamically compiling all the code etc.) 00:47:21 interestingly, when modifying xcvb itself to use new features of xcvb, I can't currently bootstrap xcvb using xcvb, but must bootstrap xcvb using asdf. 00:47:25 Xach: Awesome, I love that everything is the same data structures everywhere :) 00:47:39 p_l|backup: ah, nice. but that probably implies support from the lisp implementation, right? 00:47:44 Fare: hahaha 00:47:53 all the world's a list, and all the cars and cdrs merely data 00:47:55 (another tactic would be to stage modifications to xcvb, so that one version of xcvb supports the extension but doesn't use it) 00:48:04 I'm trying to put a form into my macro, but it keeps evaluating it instead of putting in the straight form 00:48:16 pmd: just proper handling of instantiations of templates in binary 00:48:42 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 00:48:52 anyway, my scheme needs the C++ compiler during developement anyway, but doesn't require it for the dumped binary 00:48:53 p_l|backup: sorry :) i was still talking about exceptions 00:48:54 Ah, got it 00:49:02 p_l|backup: hm...yeah...okay, if you just say "yea, insert an explicit instantiation into a library and load that first", I guess it's not too bad. 00:49:21 Fare: maybe make the failure behavior variable; set it to warn (or ignore) for bootstrapping, and leave it at error for general use? 00:49:33 or am I misunderstanding something? 00:49:40 pmd: ah, yes. SBCL afaik sets proper SEH handlers where needed, while CCL relies on VEH so a C++ exception could go unhandled 00:49:55 antifuchs, how do I know whether I'm bootstrapping or not? 00:50:12 Fare: well, how are you bootstrapping asdf? do you know you're bootstrapping it? (: 00:50:31 puddingpimp [pftdgid@118-93-191-204.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:50:35 how does bootstrapping asdf happen and why would you do it? 00:50:44 on IA-64 ABI it's slightly harder (I need runtime code generation, apparently), but both schemes allow me to send C++ CL's conditions :D 00:50:49 by the time I try to do it, I know. At the time I first parse the configuration files, how do I know whether that will be the case??? 00:51:18 hm, when would you get incompatible-config errors when bootstrapping? 00:51:24 pmd: you can handle C++ code a spoiled egg in the form of an exception that has subsystem defined as "LISP" :P 00:51:33 require a ":allow-future-keywords" in the configuration file? 00:51:47 antifuchs: when the user updated the configuration files before updating ASDF 00:52:13 fe[nl]ix: isn't that a case of "why are you doing this in the first place?" 00:52:20 that's an idea. The configuration file itself could be telling me. 00:52:34 if you need the old asdf to boot the new asdf, why would you give the old asdf the new config values? 00:52:44 antifuchs: or when you're forced to use a compiler bundling a very old version and you need to update 00:52:51 ferada [~user@e179233037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:53:18 say you compile with allegro that only has 2.011, but you want to use 2.015. 00:54:16 ok, I'm not entirely sure why you would use asdf to load asdf in the first place. why not load it as a single file upgrade? 00:54:33 because ASDF is no longer a single file 00:54:38 and you want to use a new configuration feature only present in 2.015 and not present in 2.011 -- how do you do it? 00:55:24 antifuchs, how do you load asdf in the first place? How do you do it in a way that has a semblance of portability? 00:55:33 (load "asdf.lisp") ? (: 00:55:37 is how I always did it (: 00:55:41 from which directory? 00:55:48 i may be out of touch with reality nowadays 00:55:56 then you must control the whole load process. 00:56:14 *Xach* wonders how many people get their asdf from quicklisp 00:56:25 Xach, exactly as many as use quicklisp 00:56:30 don't you have stats on that 00:56:31 ? 00:56:55 Fare: No, not exactly. If the CL bundles something newer than quicklisp requires, it uses the CL's version. 00:57:01 *Fare* tried quicklisp a bit, but reverted to downloading systems with clbuild. 00:57:17 Newer than or equal to, that is. 00:57:44 how do I update quicklisp? mine seems to be using asdf 2.010, which is sooo November. 00:57:55 Quicklisp uses asdf 2.010 for now. 00:58:15 You can check for update with (ql:update-client) 00:58:33 *Xach* hopes to get to more client issues now that the December dist is available. 00:59:49 *Fare* initially was considering a global flag for "your configuration has invalid stuff possibly from the future" and tweaked error messages. 01:00:41 hm. well, my position is that if you're doing bootstrapping, you need to do it in a way that doesn't allow the old environment to leak through. requiring the new asdf's config options to be given to the host sounds like that's not happening. 01:00:42 Instead, I may move the complexity user-side, always error out, unless the user inserted a "just ignore invalid stuff, I know what I'm doing" where it matters. 01:01:07 -!- erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 01:01:15 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:36 after all, if you're going to configure stuff to cope with version discrepancy and upgrade, you'll notice the error, read the documentation and insert the workaround. 01:02:52 -!- strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:02:55 erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:05:15 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.51] has joined #lisp 01:05:50 -!- erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 01:05:56 s1ugg0 [~chrish@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:05 Fare: one solution would be not to load the configuration files on at load-time(and let find-system do that lazily) 01:07:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 01:07:45 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432918.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:08:00 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432918.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:08:05 and add a function «asdf:update "/path/to/newasdf/asdf.asd"» 01:08:08 erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:08:18 strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:25 fe[nl]ix, actually it's loaded just before the first find-system indeed 01:09:20 then just add that function 01:09:29 if you could do such an update, you wouldn't need the ability to update asdf - you could directly load the new one. 01:09:53 problem is, what is the great meta-asdf thing that knows how to load asdf, and how do you upgrade meta-asdf 01:10:10 I just told you! ql:update-client! 01:10:27 Xach: you win. 01:10:34 (almost) 01:11:06 Fare: how would you update asdf then? remove its package(s) and reload? 01:11:21 you'd win if quicklisp came preinstalled with every lisp implementation, that is. 01:11:22 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d47.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:11:45 pmd: if you had meta-asdf, the bootstrap problem wouldn't be with asdf anymore, just with meta-asdf. 01:11:49 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::2b:dbc8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:11:55 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:12:36 Fare: it's so easy to install I'm not very concerned about that. 01:12:48 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:13:02 admittedly, meta-asdf could have been something conceptually much simpler than asdf. But then it would have required its own special configuration, separate from asdf, and then we're in configuration upgrade hell again. 01:13:07 Fare: but sbcl and ccl nerds are trying to figure out how to preinstall it. i'm trying to figure out how, too... 01:13:41 Xach: maybe I could have saved myself a lot of trouble, and just let you figure it all out... 01:14:25 That would have saved me a lot of trouble too! 01:14:45 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839BA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:14:53 The dust is settling and things seem pretty good now. 01:15:34 ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 01:16:50 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Quit:] 01:17:11 Xach: you wish I would have left you figure it out? 01:17:58 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:16 -!- ferada [~user@e179233037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:19:17 Fare: No, I would not have changed it at all. 01:20:09 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:28 I don't understand. 01:20:43 BTW, file-date< in setup.lisp doesn't look like it's used. 01:20:57 -!- xan_ [~xan@26.Red-88-24-228.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:22:22 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:22:25 Thanks! 01:22:27 *Xach* removes it 01:22:58 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 01:23:00 I think quicklisp is great for interactive use when you just want to use and not worry about version control. 01:23:53 I don't see how one could write shell-callable scripts to automate the use of quicklisp in a reliable way. 01:24:22 True, I need to write the manual to make it clear how to do that. 01:24:42 so, it has its uses, but it doesn't fully replace clbuild or remove the need for other kinds of wrappers around asdf. 01:25:02 which is fine, btw - it doesn't HAVE to do it all. 01:25:25 mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:56 I guess I'm just saying I still see a flimsy reason why my efforts in making ASDF2 upgradable were not necessarily a complete waste. 01:26:11 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:27:44 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-52-54.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:28:21 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:28:41 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:29:55 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 01:32:02 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:35:40 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 01:36:21 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:28 Ssk` [~fleesh@ool-4571034e.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:33 LOL 01:37:02 minion: LOL? 01:37:02 Fare: not that I have much right to an opinion, but I consider them *far* from a "complete waste." 01:37:03 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``LOL''. 01:37:12 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:42 As a complete n00b, anything that has a chance at showing me the "right" way to do things is appreciate 01:37:53 s/appreciate/appreciated 01:38:26 ij 01:38:27 jimrthy, thanks. If good to get compliments when you fish for them :) 01:38:36 jimrthy, has asdf2 helped you? 01:39:04 and/or my papers / presentation been useful? 01:39:20 Ssk`: go away. 01:39:36 Fare: Not yet. But now I know they're there, and that's another source for me to learn from 01:40:09 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:40:41 Fare: I wasted several hours trying to get the 'most recent' SBCL release to deal with ASDF2 01:40:54 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:07 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:42:04 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.44.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:42:39 Sounds like it would have been easier to get some other lisp that comes with asdf2. 01:42:50 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:00 fgump [~gump@vpn2-119.vpn.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 01:43:22 the latest sbcl comes with asdf2. 01:43:41 rme: great timing! 01:43:59 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:44:00 rme: i just pushed out an update with the updated cl-fad for great ccl 1.6 harmony. 01:44:57 Xach: Excellent. 01:45:31 Yay! That was from back when I was trying to use apt-get. Y'all have taught me to end the error of my ways (yet again) 01:45:53 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:14 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:46:53 Users will have it pretty easy now. Step 1: get ccl-1.6. Step 2: (load "http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp"). Step 3: there's no step 3. 01:47:10 * (there really is a step 3. And step 4 also, probably.) 01:47:41 sweet. 01:49:10 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:50:11 mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@12.155.80.90] has joined #lisp 01:50:37 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 01:50:43 dz0004455 [~dz0004455@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:54 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:31 -!- fgump [~gump@vpn2-119.vpn.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:53:20 -!- sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Later Gators. Except that ServerMessageBlock. Go rot in Putin's Gulag SMB.] 01:54:48 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55:54 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 01:57:28 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57:45 (setf (sb-ext:bytes-consed-between-gcs) (* 1024 512)) <---- surprisingly useful :D 01:58:41 rmarianski [~rmariansk@user-387h3rc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:17 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:52 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:00:07 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:18 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.44.65] has joined #lisp 02:00:53 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:07 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:02:33 chemuduguntar [~user@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:15 summersault [~george@189.107.210.242] has joined #lisp 02:04:25 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:10 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:16 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:52 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has quit [Quit: superflit] 02:07:14 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 02:07:26 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 02:08:31 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-144-183.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:08:46 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-152-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:09:52 -!- az [~az@p5796CF03.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:10:15 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:11:10 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:43 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:54 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:28 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 02:15:56 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:04 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:16:27 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:04 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 02:17:30 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 02:18:35 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:36 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 02:21:04 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 02:22:02 -!- moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@ETSY.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:19 FUCK 02:24:19 NIGGERS 02:24:21 FUCK YOU NIGGERS 02:24:22 FUCK 02:24:23 FAGGOTS 02:24:24 FUCK YOU FAGGOTS 02:24:44 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 02:24:51 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*fleesh@*.dyn.optonline.net 02:24:56 -!- Ssk` [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Go away.) 02:25:38 joeygibson [~joeygibso@c-98-230-153-52.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:55 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:58 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 02:27:03 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 02:27:58 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:30:37 well 02:30:39 that was pointless 02:30:56 az [~az@p5796CF03.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:36 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 02:31:38 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night all] 02:32:05 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:14 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:08 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:35:15 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::2b:ec7c] has joined #lisp 02:35:58 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:36:29 -!- joeygibson [~joeygibso@c-98-230-153-52.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 02:36:29 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:37:03 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 02:37:26 -!- s1ugg0 [~chrish@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:38:52 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:39:09 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.51] has joined #lisp 02:43:32 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:44:02 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:44:03 horze [~kim@c-0b1072d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:44:03 -!- mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@12.155.80.90] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:44:10 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 02:44:58 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:46:12 (> a b) is the same as a > b, right? 02:47:28 (> a b) represents in Lisp what would be written as a > b in usual (infix) mathematical notation, yes 02:48:27 right 02:48:57 prefix is a little weird when the operators aren't commutative 02:49:35 only until you get used to it, of course 02:52:26 actually, recent SBCL's come with asdf2. 02:52:57 jimrthy, I'm sorry it was so hard :-( 02:54:03 -!- sanchaz is now known as sanchaz-away 02:54:21 when you load from a URL, what do you get as *load-pathname* and/or *load-truename* ? Do you have URL pathnames as with SCL or ABCL ? 02:55:36 DONKEYS_GALORE [~njb@c-66-235-32-232.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:37 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-54-148.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:58:38 fare: No sweat. I *expect* to be forced to learn things when I tackle a "new" language. Otherwise, why bother? 02:59:27 jimrthy: there's an important difference between accidental difficulty and necessary difficulty. 03:00:28 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jecbehlehmhzcnmo] has joined #lisp 03:01:17 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:01:40 Xach: you don't need to fish for compliments about how awesome quicklisp is. :-D But there's no need to deprecate someone else's hard work 03:02:09 -!- didi [~user@scorpion.tdkom.psi.br] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:02:15 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:37 No need to project. 03:02:47 BTW, ccl has just released version 1.6. One of the major features seems to be an easier way to load quicklisp 03:02:59 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 03:03:14 It's just a hack to CL:LOAD. I wouldn't call it a major feature. 03:04:16 Xach: sorry, didn't mean to imply anything 03:05:59 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:06:36 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 03:07:08 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:08:32 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:09:48 mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:53 -!- joshee [~joshe@c-67-169-219-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:10:51 joshee [~joshe@c-67-169-219-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:24 -!- m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:35 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:13:46 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 03:13:56 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:16:48 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:17:10 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.13.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:17:30 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.13.82] has joined #lisp 03:19:42 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.44.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:19:59 can someone enlighten me as to why the last expression isn't returning the value "sym"? http://paste.lisp.org/display/117453 03:20:04 (its only 3 lines of code) 03:20:04 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.44.65] has joined #lisp 03:21:07 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:22:39 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.20.223] has joined #lisp 03:23:17 because loop doesn't automatically return the value from that do clause 03:23:48 -!- Arelius [d0507552@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.80.117.82] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 03:23:54 yan_: What does your lisp tell you when you evaluate the first expression? =) 03:24:11 austinh: ah thanks. i replaced "sym" with (return "sym") but that isn't very aesthetically pleasing.. 03:24:28 ebzzry: you mean the defun or its call? 03:24:57 yan_: The defun. Your lisp usually gives you clues on what is happening. 03:25:10 ebzzry: it usually returns the function name when i defun it 03:25:20 (i just C-M-x in slime) 03:25:22 yan_: You might want "collecting (case ..." instead of (return "sym") 03:25:49 sellout: probably. 03:26:14 sellout: actually (i spent so long trying to figure this out i forgot the original intent of this code) now that I think about it, the (return ..) behavior is what i want i think 03:26:17 why do you never use the variable sym? Do you mean to use it instead of the string "sym" ? 03:26:45 Fare: i will change that too,i just made it a string for now as i was trying to figure out if it had something to do with the value of sym initially (as in, whether or not it was nil) 03:26:59 yan_: But return means that your loop will never loop 03:27:05 yan_: As Fare said, why are you not using the variable 'sym'? 03:27:35 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-234-37.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 03:27:40 ebzzry: i was testing the code from another place initially and wanted to rull out the case of sym being NIL 03:28:13 (or sym "sym") 03:28:25 Fare: that would have worked too :) 03:30:01 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:31:11 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@user-387h3rc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 03:31:16 rmarianski [~rmariansk@user-387h3rc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:33:00 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 03:35:35 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 03:38:13 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:41:17 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:43:55 -!- fihi09``` [~user@pool-96-224-162-86.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:44:23 -!- jimrthy [~jimrthy@ip68-13-249-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has left #lisp 03:45:00 -!- Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.160.104] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:45:16 Could someone tell me what I'm doing wrong with (case)? 03:45:17 http://paste.lisp.org/+2IMM 03:45:36 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:46:18 <_3b> necroforest: try printing it with ~s instead of ~a 03:46:30 necroforest: yeah, what _3b said. 03:46:33 You may have a package problem. 03:46:57 *_3b* suspects they are keywords, but doesn't remember for sure 03:46:59 ohhhh 03:47:23 yeah 03:47:26 :keywords 03:48:25 why wouldn't a keyword print with the : in front of it? 03:48:34 is that not part of the symbol? 03:48:52 It's the way the printer works 03:49:00 <_3b> it isn't part of the symbol's name 03:49:39 A keyword ":foo", is actually "keyword:foo" 03:49:51 ohhhh 03:49:56 <_3b> it is partof the symbol to the extent that the symbol's home package is part of the symbol, and : by itself is short for keyword: 03:50:00 *necroforest* feels enlightened... 03:50:06 syntactic sugar 03:50:23 Keyword symbols are automatically interned in the KEYWORD package 03:51:43 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:51:45 -!- dz0004455 [~dz0004455@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:58:46 pdk [~realname@c-67-163-243-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:55 moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@ETSY.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:00:16 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-11-38.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 04:02:17 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 04:03:07 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:03:46 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.20.223] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:05:41 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:09 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.180] has joined #lisp 04:07:17 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:08:05 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:09:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:10:58 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::2b:ec7c] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:14:40 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:07 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:19:08 _nix00 [~user@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 04:20:02 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:20:07 bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:34 -!- bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:22:56 bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:07 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:23:34 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@user-387h3rc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:24:06 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:16 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::2b:f9ac] has joined #lisp 04:24:21 dz0004455 [~dz0004455@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:01 -!- bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:25:59 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:33 -!- joshee [~joshe@c-67-169-219-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:09 joshee [~joshe@c-67-169-219-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:38 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:29:51 anyone got a good article describing how to control the order to method combination? I'd like to use it as sort of "chained filter", but I fear it might not work the way I want it to. 04:29:55 -!- _nix00 [~user@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 04:30:17 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@144-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:32:21 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:35:58 bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:38 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:37:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:38:59 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:39:21 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:40:04 ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 04:41:09 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:43:26 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:40 p_l|backup: have you looked here? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_4.htm#define-method-combination 04:44:48 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::2b:f9ac] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:44:56 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:45:06 I guess the real answer is no, I don't have an article like that handy. 04:45:17 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:45 -!- prip [~foo@host196-135-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:48:20 -!- az [~az@p5796CF03.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:49:48 -!- joshee [~joshe@c-67-169-219-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:51:45 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:30 joshee [~joshe@c-67-169-219-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:43 -!- somnium [~user@184.42.17.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:08 az [~az@p5796C16B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:06 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:58:41 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::2b:fb8c] has joined #lisp 04:58:56 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:00:05 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82B3FE.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:00:10 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 05:01:33 prip [~foo@host241-9-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 05:02:53 -!- joshee [~joshe@c-67-169-219-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:03:10 joshee [~joshe@c-67-169-219-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:55 -!- dz0004455 [~dz0004455@c-98-198-92-3.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:05:06 hmm... I wonder if I can access it through some class 05:08:20 Good morning everyone! 05:08:46 -!- joshee [~joshe@c-67-169-219-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:07 hmmm... looks like I can do what I want with custom generic-function-class and method-class 05:09:35 joshee [~joshe@c-67-169-219-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:05 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.97] has joined #lisp 05:10:20 -!- bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:10:20 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:56 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 05:12:36 how do i change all the dashes in a string to spaces? 05:12:44 -!- chemuduguntar [~user@smtp.touchcut.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:12:45 (subst #\Space #\- (symbol-name segment)))) 05:12:48 is not working it seems 05:12:55 use substitute 05:13:15 subst is for trees, substitute for sequences 05:14:15 sanjoyd [~sanjoy@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 05:14:17 ok. 05:14:35 how can i get format ~S not to print the |bars| 05:14:39 in symbol names 05:14:48 don't use ~S 05:14:49 don't use ~s 05:14:54 heh! 05:15:38 i want to print strings as "foo" but symbols like :foo-bar as foo bar 05:15:58 which variable causes SBCL to format 'FOO as (QUOTE FOO) instead of 'FOO ? 05:16:35 dto: you can have your ~/OWN:FORMATTER/ functions 05:17:03 Fare: I suppose you can set-pprint-dispatch 05:17:10 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:17:25 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:53 dto: substitute, not subst is what you want 05:18:32 p_l: define-method-combination ? 05:20:15 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:43 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:25:03 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::2b:fb8c] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:25:03 any idea how to tell quicklisp to remove old versions of a lib? For example, I have cl-fad 0.6.3 and 0.6.4 installed. 05:26:30 Fare: I'll need to attach extra metadata to the methods as well 05:26:49 -!- moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@ETSY.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:27:48 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 05:28:40 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:29:01 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:28 of course, I might be completely missing the point as well 05:30:02 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 05:32:26 considering the dependency minimization for xcvb, I think I'll use rucksack instead of either elephant or cl-perec or anything else. 05:32:36 bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:45 hmmm.... looks like I was overcomplicating things 05:34:08 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:34:17 -!- joshee [~joshe@c-67-169-219-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:34:17 -!- erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:35:21 X-02 [~kohei@p1225-ipbf301kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:36:40 -!- bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:37:52 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.13.7] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:39:12 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::2c:841a] has joined #lisp 05:40:15 -!- pdk [~realname@c-67-163-243-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:45:40 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:47:57 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:51:52 jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-74.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:51:53 churib [~tg@dslc-082-082-115-169.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:02 remind me again...why is there no with-input-from-sequence? 05:55:06 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:38 You want to use lists? 05:55:41 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 05:55:51 a vector actually 05:55:56 flexi-streams? 05:56:10 right... thanks adeht! 05:56:11 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 05:56:32 hell, thanks to xach, we can all use common libraries with impunity! 06:02:23 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-190.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 06:06:24 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::2c:841a] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:07:33 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:29 Hello, is it possible to serialize functions? It seems cl-store doesn't work for functions. 06:09:10 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:10:23 I remember http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/Lisp/CommonCold/serialisable_closures_in_sbcl.html though I never used it and don't know if it still works 06:10:51 minion: sb-heapdump 06:10:52 sb-heapdump: sb-heapdump is a library for SBCL which writes graphs of Lisp objects to disk in the same format SBCL normally uses in memory. http://www.cliki.net/sb-heapdump 06:10:53 also that 06:14:04 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:07 adeht: So there seems no major or cross-platform one, I understood. Thank, I'll try them anyway. 06:18:41 the concept of serializing function objects was always flawed in my mind and I always found better solutions 06:19:12 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::2c:8846] has joined #lisp 06:19:24 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::2c:8846] has quit [Client Quit] 06:20:04 though saving/loading a core is useful 06:21:09 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:26:13 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:27:02 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:28:07 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-234-37.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: plediii] 06:28:56 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:29:51 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 06:34:25 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:44 adeht: thank you, in this case I just want to serialize anything in general. Of couse there is a special way for functions, e.g. serializing a list and eval, etc. 06:36:25 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.44.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:38:17 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.64.24] has joined #lisp 06:38:47 X-02: there's an extension to cl-store that srializes closurs 06:38:56 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:40:28 hu.dwim.delico also seems to have serialization support for lambda 06:41:50 what is #lisp up to at the moment 06:42:01 What are you all workin' on? 06:42:28 Apostrophes. 06:42:44 X-02: https://github.com/gugamilare/storable-functions/ 06:43:08 Zhivago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Apostrophe_showing_omission 06:43:20 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-138-18.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 06:49:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-114-74.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:52:34 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 06:56:44 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-234-37.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 07:02:33 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:44 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:02:47 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 07:10:14 p_l|backup: Oh, this is great. I appreciate it. Thank you. 07:10:33 Sorry for the late response. 07:11:11 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.20.223] has joined #lisp 07:11:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:12:56 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:14:34 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B694.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:40 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082A644.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:18:01 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 07:18:57 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 07:26:36 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tdiqneqdcrwhgfdb] has joined #lisp 07:29:38 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:29:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:29:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:35:58 madsenz [~Zhang.Sen@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:57 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-190.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:38:05 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-190.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 07:40:02 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-130-111.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:29 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:44:01 -!- hdurer_ is now known as HDurer_home 07:44:02 -!- HDurer_home [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:44:03 HDurer_home [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 07:44:45 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-42-243.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:15 -!- madsenz [~Zhang.Sen@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:46:06 http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com/2010/12/nested-blocks-and-further-progress.html continued progress on visual 07:46:49 dto: does that use sdl? 07:47:00 yes, at the moment. 07:49:14 at this point, the drag and drop (mostly) works.... with a proper "progn" block that allows a sequence of blocks, i'll be in business. it's an easy matter to (defblock ...) and create things that work with all the features of my game engine. 07:52:09 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:52:13 DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:47 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:57:54 sacho [~sacho@95-42-99-232.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 07:59:49 -!- DONKEYS_GALORE [~njb@c-66-235-32-232.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:01:08 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 08:02:21 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-38-85.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:03:33 -!- DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 08:04:25 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:05:26 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 08:06:17 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-109-101.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:06:17 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:06:43 ignas [~ignas@88-222-145-120.meganet.lt] has joined #lisp 08:09:41 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-aakywngfuenifsfe] has joined #lisp 08:10:39 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-49.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:11:28 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:56 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 08:20:32 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.24.189] has joined #lisp 08:20:52 DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:06 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:23:08 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 08:23:26 lhz [~user@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 08:25:07 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:25:17 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:25:18 is this valid: (setf nil form) 08:25:33 no 08:28:12 thanks 08:28:35 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 08:29:14 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 08:30:24 or rather, how can I find out these stuff? (I'm staring at clhs) 08:30:44 clhs nil 08:30:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_nil.htm 08:31:07 you should notice that NIL is a constant variable, you can't modify constant variable 08:31:21 mishoo [~mishoo@host212-104-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:32:04 -!- DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 08:33:45 ok, never thought of nil that way 08:35:40 -!- johanbev [~johanbev@189.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:38:04 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:40:12 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:41:33 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:41:54 -!- gryllida [gryllida@wikinews/Gryllida] has left #lisp 08:42:17 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:45:09 Guthur 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[~bronsa@host85-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:16:55 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:21:02 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 12:22:55 mtk [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:26 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:25:22 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 12:25:44 What could I use to make a simple point-n-click game? I mean, the interface, to get click events and stuff. 12:25:56 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:13 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 12:26:22 <_3b> minion: tell didi about lispbuilder-sdl 12:26:23 didi: look at lispbuilder-sdl: Lispbuilder-SDL provides Common Lisp bindings for the SDL graphics library. http://www.cliki.net/lispbuilder-sdl 12:26:57 _3b: Thank you. 12:28:24 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:28:44 billitch [~billitch@AMontsouris-153-1-73-29.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:29:22 koning_r1bot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 12:29:24 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:29:52 rtoym: herep 12:31:06 Dawgmatix [~dman@123.201.201.243] has joined #lisp 12:32:20 -!- koning_robot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:34:58 stassats: Yes. What's up? 12:35:03 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bkltaqujljswjxgy] has joined #lisp 12:35:51 (let ((list (list 1 2 3 4))) (loop initially (print (pop list)) for x = (pop list) while x) list) gives me trouble in CMUCL, it prints 2, while everywhere else it prints 1 12:36:07 i'm not really sure which one is right 12:36:22 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 12:37:28 mishoo [~mishoo@host212-104-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:37:32 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@123.201.201.243] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:40 and (let ((list (list 1 2 3 4))) (loop repeat 1 initially (print (pop list)) for x = (pop list) while x)) prints 1 12:39:13 Ugh. I hate debugging loop issues. 12:39:26 clhs loop 12:39:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 12:40:13 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DC40.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:23 and (loop initially (print 10) with x = (print nil) while x) prints NIL 10 everywhere 12:40:31 which is confusing 12:40:56 clhs says "The initially construct causes the supplied compound-forms to be evaluated in the loop prologue, which precedes all loop code except for initial settings 12:40:56 supplied by constructs with, for, or as." 12:42:56 Your last loop example seems totally wrong. 12:43:34 it's contrived, but i don't see why it'd be wrong 12:43:54 Oh. No. It should print nil and 10, I think. 12:44:31 first 10 then nil ..... 12:44:33 though what does clhs mean by "initial settings" 12:44:46 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:45:01 clhs 6.1.2.2 12:45:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abb.htm 12:45:11 This is why I avoid complicated loops. :-) 12:45:57 That seems to indicate that the last loop should print nil 10. 12:47:07 Is it possible to iterate over all instances of a given class? 12:47:09 That also seems to indicate that the first example should print 2, assuming the initial settings for FOR is done first. 12:47:33 antoszka: not on all instances of a standard-class 12:47:48 antoszka: if you need that, you can create a metaclass that does instance tracking for you. 12:47:57 antoszka: you can create your metaclass which will record all instances 12:48:01 H4ns: OK, I'll look into that. 12:48:03 stassats: thx 12:48:34 antoszka: you may want to have a look at bknr.datastore, it has a metaclass that does just that. 12:48:49 great 12:49:00 and don't forget to use a weak datastructure 12:50:03 stassats: It's not clear to me if the initialization of for-equals should come before initially. 12:51:19 it is before http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_aba.htm 12:52:40 (loop initially (print 10) for x = (print nil) while x) prints NIL 10 in CMUCL, but 10 NIL in SBCL 12:52:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:52:58 I've loaded 'lispbuilder-sql-examples' using quicklisp and slime and I am able to run the examples using '(sdl-examples:foo)'. Is it possible to look at the sources of the example? 12:53:04 "The iteration control clauses for, as, and repeat must precede any other loop clauses, except initially, with, and named, since they establish variable 12:53:04 bindings" 12:53:06 The iteration control clauses for, as, and repeat must precede any other loop clauses, except initially, with, and named, since they establish variable bindings 12:53:19 which makes sense according to this 12:53:49 Which makes sense? nil 10 or 10 nil? 12:54:03 rtoym: sbcl's behaviour 12:54:14 didi: press M-. on sdl-examples:foo 12:54:41 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:55:06 stassats: Very nice. Thank you. 12:55:37 rtoym: oh, no, it doesn't i think it must precede textually 12:56:11 not how they're initialized 12:56:19 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:56:44 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Client Quit] 12:57:09 nothing makes sense and i am confused 12:57:13 But 6.1.2.7 says initially precedes all loop code except initial settings supplied by with, for, and as. 12:57:50 rtoym: that's right, the passage i quoted doesn't contradict it 12:58:02 -!- mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:58:30 Oh, I wasn't trying to contradict you. 12:59:29 i think there was a thread on some mailing list some time ago about something similar 13:00:24 So, nil 10 seems correct. And the first example should print 2. If you assume initial settings means the variable initialization of for/with/as. 13:00:59 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:27 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:03:20 tfb [~tfb@92.40.106.58.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:03:49 Dont' know what the loop repeat example is supposed to do. 13:05:33 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:06:30 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:07:08 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:07:19 *stassats* is frustrated at the fact that he can't load commonqt on anything but SBCL and CCL 13:07:29 -!- trigen [~MSX@ec2-46-51-179-218.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:07:39 mostly because some dependencies can't be compiled 13:08:01 -!- H4ns [~user@p579F8BE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:16 lisp dependencies? 13:10:21 yes 13:11:15 -!- billitch [~billitch@AMontsouris-153-1-73-29.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:11:28 *Xach* needs to take a break from the project treadmill and get automated testing going 13:11:44 <_8david> which dependencies? 13:11:46 the clx/sbcl problem is embarrassing. i wish i had tested it before the release. 13:12:33 _8david: named-readtables fails because of the above issue with loop and cmucl 13:12:46 trigen [~MSX@81.18.253.210] has joined #lisp 13:12:58 billitch [~billitch@AMontsouris-153-1-73-29.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:13:04 eek 13:13:05 and i already forgot what were the problems with clisp, acl, and lw 13:13:18 <_8david> aha. named-readtables was also the problem when I last tried with allegro, but that was with a very old version of named-readtables. 13:13:28 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-130-111.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:13:29 <_8david> I don't recall problems with LW. 13:14:02 <_8david> clisp also worked, but it's laughably slow, so I don't care much about it. 13:14:30 and clisp fails because its asdf:run-shell-command doesn't return the exit code 13:15:11 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:44 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:16:14 <_8david> well, as much as I like having asdf do the make call automatically, that's not exactly needed to build comomnqt. It doesn't call out to make if the .so is already up to date. 13:16:15 oh, it returns NIL in case it's zero 13:17:48 i'd guess that's a bug in asdf, because it says "Returns the shell's exit code.", so it should have (or clisp-cruft 0) 13:18:19 stassats: the clisp shell command stuff in asdf.lisp has a few XXXs. 13:19:55 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:23:18 and ACL says: "There is no readtable named :QT." when doing "named-readtables:defreadtable :qt" 13:23:22 oh well 13:23:41 <_8david> tcr: should named-readtables "just work" on allegro these days? 13:24:14 <_8david> stassats: is the app you're writing also open source, BTW? 13:24:30 that's because (editor-hints.named-readtables:find-readtable :foo) fails 13:24:34 _8david: yes 13:25:00 it's a personal project, nothing exciting yet 13:25:29 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:25:36 Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.197.11] has joined #lisp 13:26:00 oh, that's because allegro has its own readtables 13:26:20 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 13:26:27 <_8david> I'd be mostly interested in it as a real-world test/usage/benchmark case. 13:27:01 pdk [~realname@c-67-163-243-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:38 i don't understand this: #+ :allegro (excl:named-readtable (readtable-name-for-allegro name)) #+ :common-lisp (values (gethash name *named-readtables* nil)) 13:27:54 allegro clearly has common-lisp in *features* 13:29:27 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:29:40 the first form will be executed 13:29:50 the rest discarded 13:30:01 how, exactly? 13:30:10 look at the macro's definition 13:30:34 that is utterly confusing 13:30:57 why does it have #+ :common-lisp at all? 13:31:38 and excl:named-readtable has error-p optional parameter 13:31:41 It's the name of the default branch 13:31:58 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:09 -!- trigen [~MSX@81.18.253.210] has quit [] 13:32:23 trigen [~MSX@ec2-46-51-179-218.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:53 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bkltaqujljswjxgy] has left #lisp 13:32:57 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:28 *stassats* got quite confused by all that named-readtable macrology today while searching for bugs 13:33:45 -!- kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: *puff*] 13:35:35 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:35:48 and it's a bug in allegro, it ignores error-p set to nil 13:35:52 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 13:36:32 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:05 -!- sanchaz-away [sanchaz@gateway/shell/shellium.org/x-jdnmophdlqqmudks] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:54 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:41:30 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.67.205.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:42:31 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-205-172.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:35 tcr: but that seems to be fixed, and "The default for the errorp argument was changed from nil to t in release 8.2.", so you'd need to provide NIL specifically now 13:44:31 sabalaba [~sabalaba@61.48.70.25] has joined #lisp 13:44:58 Hmm, I'm trying to find where in the standard it's forbidden (or undefined) for user code to intern new things in the COMMON-LISP pacakge. I thought perhaps 11.1.2.1.2, but that's about external symbols. 13:45:05 Can you suggest a place to look? 13:45:30 stassats: I remember having fixed that at some point, but it doesn't seem to be fixed locally either 13:47:27 tcr: and there is a problem on cmucl with define-api macro, specifically with "initially (assert ...)" 13:47:47 i had to replace it with (progn (assert ...) (loop ...)) 13:48:09 tcr: would it be better if i wrote all this to the mailing-list? 13:49:15 em [~em@user-0ccem9o.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:21 -!- em [~em@user-0ccem9o.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:49:21 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 13:51:05 afat [afat@node-be0b984c.scarlet.an] has joined #lisp 13:51:19 AHA! 13:51:47 stassats: Yeah I guess so 13:51:48 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 13:53:55 f5love [jnblue@59.52.177.131] has joined #lisp 13:54:00 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-158-22.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:54:52 -!- f5love [jnblue@59.52.177.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:58:11 carlocci [~nes@93.37.209.245] has joined #lisp 13:59:04 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:12 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:02:28 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:03:11 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:03:48 -!- horze [~kim@c-0b1072d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:04:09 iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:16 horze [~kim@c-0b1072d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:05:29 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.209.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:05:45 carlocci [~nes@93.37.209.245] has joined #lisp 14:05:55 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 14:07:26 I have (proclaim '(optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (speed 0))) .. but restart-frame wont show up. 14:07:31 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 14:07:57 what implementation? 14:08:02 sbcl 14:08:30 try (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 2) instead 14:08:46 and recompile everything, naturally 14:09:31 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:53 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:10:58 K_Sam [~k@119.6.32.132] has joined #lisp 14:11:09 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:14 -!- afat [afat@node-be0b984c.scarlet.an] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:11:29 -!- horze [~kim@c-0b1072d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:11:32 afat [afat@node-be0b984c.scarlet.an] has joined #lisp 14:14:05 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:14:41 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:01 troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:15 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:15:26 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:15:44 horze [~kim@c-0b1072d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:16:05 -!- mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:16:20 -!- troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:30 no luck: http://paste.lisp.org/+2IMV 14:18:10 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:57 lhz: works fine for me 14:20:49 but wait 14:20:59 urandom__ [~user@p548A4410.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:08 sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy has no compile-time side-effects 14:21:49 fogus` [c6970d0f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.151.13.15] has joined #lisp 14:22:12 well, i just typed everything into the repl and restart-frame works fine 14:22:22 lhz: but why aren't you using Slime for this? 14:22:34 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 14:24:31 stassats: trying to simplify the test case, does slime provides the restart? It doesnt appear if inside slime. 14:24:41 -!- K_Sam [~k@119.6.32.132] has left #lisp 14:24:59 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 14:25:00 -!- afat [afat@node-be0b984c.scarlet.an] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:25:17 afat [afat@node-be0b984c.scarlet.an] has joined #lisp 14:25:36 zomgbie [~jesus@91.137.20.132] has joined #lisp 14:25:38 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.51] has joined #lisp 14:26:15 hi, is it possible to instruct the compiler that a used variable is unused, so it has to be used again or (declare (ignore ...)) to not get a warning/ 14:26:46 ignotus: locally? 14:26:53 ignotus: bind it again via let 14:26:58 lhz: restart? 14:26:59 Xach: yes 14:27:00 ignotus: (let ((var var)) ...) 14:27:21 ignotus: I'm suggesting you try cl:locally. do you think that might work for you? 14:27:21 lhz: i think you're confused, restart-frame is not a RESTART 14:27:24 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7553ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:37 it's a command, you need to type "restart-frame" into the repl 14:27:43 Xach: one sec, I'm trying dlowe's idea 14:27:56 hmmmm 14:28:14 lhz: in slime restartable frames are green, you can type "r" to restart them 14:28:19 Xach: there's no (declare (unignore var)) that I know of 14:28:48 if i type in (let ((f (lambda (x y) (cons x y)))) (eq f f)) in a bare sbcl i get an error thrown, but not when i start it with rlwrap 14:29:20 homie: your typing skills might be to blame. 14:29:22 stassats: I'm on sbcl 1.0.28 if doing slime. 14:29:50 lhz: should work on it 14:30:10 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 14:30:28 stassats: pressing r shows: Cannot restart frame: # 14:30:36 hmm, right, this time it didn't happen 14:30:39 lhz: but is it green? 14:30:45 wvdschel_ [~wim@vpnk020.ugent.be] has joined #lisp 14:30:58 and that means that you didn't use sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 14:31:40 dlowe: thanks, that seems to be a nice workaround:) 14:32:20 you can use C-u C-c C-c, it'll set debug to 3, or C-u C-c C-k 14:32:29 Xach: yeah, a locally declaration could have been ideal, but there are none such for this situ 14:32:32 ignotus: but why do you need that? 14:32:54 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:06 stassats: I didn't see restart-frame. If adding (declare (optimize (debug 3))) inside foo it works. 14:34:26 then you did it wrong 14:34:30 stassats: for some macro generated code to "unuse" variables, so I get a warning if I forget to use them 14:35:03 ignotus: I suggest that if you have that problem, your functions are too big 14:35:25 ignotus: rebind a variable around the macro's body. 14:35:42 dlowe: hehe, they are:) 14:35:52 i.e. expand into (let (x) [frobnicate x] (let ((x x)) ...body...)) 14:36:09 pkhuong: that's what dlowe suggested 14:36:57 stassats: right. 14:37:03 this just bit me while using paul graham's when-bind* utility macro, so I wondered about an easy way to prevent that 14:37:20 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@91.137.20.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:37:43 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 14:39:35 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:39:35 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:24 zomgbie [~jesus@91.137.20.132] has joined #lisp 14:40:30 stassats: it is green in the backtrace like 0: (foo) if that was what you ment. 14:42:05 rtoym: does cmucl have package locks? 14:42:20 Yes. 14:42:51 rtoym: would evaluating 'cl::foo trigger an error? 14:43:14 Let me try. 14:43:43 No, that doesn't trigger an error. It probably should. 14:44:27 Marco Antoniotti is complaining about sbcl's "fascist" policy because it errors on a form like that. 14:44:41 seriously? 14:44:47 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44:54 clisp also errors. cmucl, ccl, and allegro don't. 14:45:07 he's welcome to fork a freedom-sbcl 14:45:12 stassats: the symbol is auto-generated from some "base" symbol, so it's more like CL::|Lazy CONS| 14:46:32 his code isn't aryan enough 14:46:52 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.20.223] has joined #lisp 14:46:56 ignotus: the (only?) valid situation where rebinding would be the solution would be when you define a macro that depends on an already existing macro that does a useful binding 14:48:10 ignotus: so i suggest you use make-symbol/gensym for the outside let-if, and then bind the variable to that symbol 14:48:45 what is c-u c-c c-c? I get 'beginning of buffer' if doing c-u 14:48:54 lhz: "recompile with max debug" 14:49:20 or "compile..." 14:49:28 ignotus: although, i don't see a problem in unused variables with when-bind*, because some of the bindings, inclusing the last one, might just serve for condition testing 14:49:54 is there a m-x name for it ? 14:50:50 C-u M-x slime-compile-defun 14:51:03 Did you rebind C-u? 14:51:45 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.70.198] has joined #lisp 14:52:18 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:53:00 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-182.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53:07 -!- mtk [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:53:20 -!- benny [~benny@i577A241A.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:54:08 ah.. viper has rebind c-u :) .. anyway if doing mx slime-compile-defun goes ungreen. 14:54:37 because you didn't use C-u 14:54:57 but as i said earlier, you can use sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy to get the same effect globally 14:55:17 lhz: try M-- (meta -) or M-8 14:55:48 M-- wouldn't work 14:55:51 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.70.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:56:11 well, it would, but the other way around, it will compile with maximum speed settings 14:56:17 pmd: I see your point, thanks 14:57:01 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yksoqojsbsgifhig] has joined #lisp 14:57:19 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-161-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:32 (M-3 would work) 14:58:13 benny [~benny@i577A1F56.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:59 stassats: yeah, i was in trial&error mode :), reading C-h f slime-compile-defun would be more useful, even if to just follow the code link 14:59:00 m-3 m-8 or m-- waits for further commands. I'll try to fix c-u.. 14:59:21 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-161-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59:30 lhz: of course they do, so does the default C-u 14:59:38 they're prefixes 14:59:39 surely it does, you need to use C-c C-c after M-3 14:59:40 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-152-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:01:21 lhz: viper doesn't bind C-u for me. what's your viper-expert-level set to? 15:02:41 -!- afat [afat@node-be0b984c.scarlet.an] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:45 -!- Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.197.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:02:54 afat [afat@node-be0b984c.scarlet.an] has joined #lisp 15:02:56 Is it hard to get a CommonQt environment working on Windows? 15:03:01 I tried viper when I first switched to emacs. It was like the worst of both worlds 15:03:02 Do you need special development tools or something? 15:03:10 koning_r1bot: it is 5 15:03:17 Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.197.11] has joined #lisp 15:04:14 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:05:16 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-158-22.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit:    .    ...] 15:06:32 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-161-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:41 <_8david> Xach: it's easier than it used to be. 15:06:59 <_8david> It still think that it would be better for users if binaries were available though. 15:07:07 Beeff [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:07:13 xinming [~hyy@122.238.78.87] has joined #lisp 15:07:17 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-158-22.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:07:21 mtk [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:35 lhz: so is mine... 15:08:46 I'm looking for an elegant solution to the following problem: I an interpreter that takes a list with symbols as input, calling this interpreter with a list of symbols created in a different package with break the interpreter because a::foo != b::foo 15:09:03 <_8david> I tried building binaries some time ago. There were issues with them, but mostly SBCL-specific issues, unrelated to Qt. SBCL isn't currently very good at binary distribution with foreign code loaded (unless one digs a bit into the internals.) 15:09:19 Beeff: (string= (symbol-name a) (symbol-name b)) 15:09:52 <_8david> Perhaps I should (a) put up matching smoke and qt dlls for download somewhere and (b) make it a policy to recompile the commonqt.dll itself every time commonqt.cpp changes, and actually check that file in (perhaps into a separate repo). 15:09:59 *stassats* is trying to get commonqt working on allegro 15:11:02 dlowe, which is why I'm asking if anyone knows a more elegant solution :p 15:11:12 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:24 Beeff: (string= a b) 15:11:25 Beeff: (string= a b) 15:11:28 :( 15:11:28 <_8david> Xach: to answer your question though, the DIY approach is to install all of the following: (a) cmake (b) the free-of-charge visual studio from microsoft (c) Qt libraries (d) kdebindings source code. 15:11:34 lol 15:12:11 <_8david> In theory you also need to install KDE, but you can get around that by editing the cmakelists vigorously. 15:12:26 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 15:12:35 stassats: depending on the observer, it might have been the other way, unless irc servers guarantee serialization these days 15:12:46 Beeff: or you could just write your own packageless reader. It's not that hard. 15:12:48 -!- boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:12:49 _8david: perhaps there should be an already tailored smoke code 15:13:07 <_8david> The good news is that the kdebindings guys are currently refactoring the monolithic all-in-one svn module into multiple little git repos. And the smoke qt git repo will supposedly not depend on KDE stuff anymore. 15:13:14 <_8david> stassats: I think the new git repo will take care of that. 15:13:24 good to hear 15:13:53 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:14:11 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@61.48.70.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:05 -!- billitch [~billitch@AMontsouris-153-1-73-29.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:15:48 dlowe, I would prefer something like that, seeing that I use cases with something like (#.+op-name-symbol+ ...) 15:16:13 so basically go through the symbol list and intern everything with package nil? 15:16:25 -!- delYsid` is now known as delYsid 15:16:54 Beeff: or create a special-purpose package for interning them 15:16:59 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 15:18:39 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:20 em [~em@user-0ccem9o.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:21 -!- em [~em@user-0ccem9o.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:19:21 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 15:19:33 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Quit: longshot] 15:19:47 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:22:10 <_8david> Xach: (how) would it be possible to integrate that combined approach (pre-built .dll in commonqt git, plus separate tarball for qt libs as an extra download) into quicklisp? 15:22:12 j0be [~j0be@cust-95-128-95-23.breedbanddelft.nl] has joined #lisp 15:22:28 s1ugg0 [~chrish@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:43 what a bizarre thing: (sw_find_name (module-ref 0) "instance") works, (defun foo (smoke str) (sw_find_name smoke str)) doesn't 15:23:23 udzinari [~opera@nat/ibm/x-cbskaitbkmjnbwai] has joined #lisp 15:24:13 billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.92] has joined #lisp 15:25:11 -!- Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.197.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:25:27 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 15:25:28 _8david: I'm not sure. I'd like to get some nice solution on Windows so people can get useful foreign libraries in the absence of a package manager and compiler. 15:25:34 lispworks just segfaults on that 15:26:52 (it doesn't, actually) 15:27:21 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 15:28:54 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:29:56 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 15:31:18 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:32:11 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 15:32:36 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:32:43 <_8david> the requirement is, I think, to download a zip or tgz in addition to the actual sources, extract it, and make certain that the extracted directory is present in $PATH 15:32:46 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:33:13 <_8david> The current directory is usually in $PATH on windows, which might be an easy (but fragile) way to achieve the last step. 15:33:15 -!- j0be [~j0be@cust-95-128-95-23.breedbanddelft.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:21 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:33:36 <_8david> A low-tech solution to the entire requirement is to complain when files are missing and tell the user to download and extract things manually. 15:33:38 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 15:33:40 Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.197.11] has joined #lisp 15:33:46 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:53 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:34:01 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 15:34:35 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.78.87] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:34:47 cffi:*foreign-library-directories* might eventually come in handy here for a portable solution 15:35:24 (hmpf, 'eventually' means something else in portuguese, wrong usage here, I think) 15:35:33 <_8david> luis: how does that work? In particular when a.dll (loaded explicitly) depends on b.dll (implicitly)? 15:36:08 (funcall (compile 'foo '(lambda () (sw_find_name (module-ref 0) "instance")))) => 3449, (foo) => -1205727879 15:36:08 _8david: good point. I don't know. 15:36:22 is allegro that buggy, or am i missing something? 15:37:06 -!- Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.197.11] has quit [Client Quit] 15:38:51 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:52 <_8david> doesn't (compile 'foo x) return 'foo? so you're saying that (funcall 'foo) differs from (foo) in this case? 15:40:08 -!- billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:40:24 <_8david> is this just about the first invocation working and the second failing perhaps, no matter how it's done? 15:40:29 actually (funcall 'foo) differs from (funcall (compile 'foo ...)) 15:41:20 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:42:21 _8david: if i just (compile 'foo), and then (funcall 'foo), it's different still 15:42:26 how fucked up is this? 15:42:43 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 15:44:22 <_8david> try printing arguments as return values in the cpp source code to see at what point the garbage is being introduced. 15:44:54 <_8david> s/as return values/and return values/ 15:45:20 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host85-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:46:14 Bronsa [~bronsa@host85-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:46:19 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:44 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:48:17 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.106.58.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 15:48:45 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yksoqojsbsgifhig] has left #lisp 15:48:50 _8david: no difference on c++ side 15:49:48 <_8david> -1205727879 isn't even a :short 15:50:21 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 15:50:54 sabalabas [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 15:51:09 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:33 luis: We have the same false friend in Germany; the english word in that case is 'possibly' 15:51:37 billitch [~billitch@AMontsouris-153-1-73-29.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:51:49 -!- mtk [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:04 and (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (lambda () (sw_find_name (module-ref 0) "instance"))), (foo) => 5588, (compile 'foo) (foo) => -1205725740 15:52:09 screw allegro 15:52:49 <_8david> does one of them go through cffi's compiler macro, and the other through cffi's dumb default implementation? 15:53:14 *luis* taps his fingers 15:53:21 mtk [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:42 xinming [~hyy@122.238.78.87] has joined #lisp 15:54:38 <_8david> actually I'm thinking of the compiler macro / default function differences that exist around foreign allocations, no idea how function invocations work. 15:54:40 tcr: gotta find a way of binding "eventualmente" to "possibly" :-) 15:54:56 *_3b* notes that both sets of numbers returned have the same low 16 bits 15:55:50 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:56:00 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:56:28 <_3b> and the same wrong high 16 bits is added in both cases 15:56:31 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:56:36 luis: switch to dvorak :) 15:58:51 joshee [~joshe@c-67-169-219-91.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:21 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:59:52 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:00:24 <_8david> didn't SBCL have an issue with gcc ABI adherence regarding short sign extension? Perhaps your Allegro version suffers from the same problem? 16:01:04 That makes sense. 16:03:00 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:03 using SYSTEM::FF-FUNCALL directly returns 3075806676, (ldb (byte 16 0) 3075806676) => 5588 16:03:31 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jjjmsdbbhkstcjqr] has joined #lisp 16:03:47 there was also that issue with GCC filling the rest of the (double?) word with garbage 16:04:23 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.182.11] has joined #lisp 16:04:33 <_8david> ISTR that gcc used to do the sign extension itself, but the ABI requires the caller to do it, so they dropped that code. 16:04:47 Bronsa_ [~bronsa@host85-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:04:49 -!- Bronsa_ [~bronsa@host85-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:11 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-vyypfpkjwptmvtbz] has joined #lisp 16:06:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl51B780F7.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:06:42 *luis* reads up on 'sign extension' 16:06:52 disregard what I just said :) 16:06:55 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:07:21 -!- billitch [~billitch@AMontsouris-153-1-73-29.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:07:49 why use shorts in the first place? 16:07:54 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:47 pmd: Because it's warm outside? 16:09:01 pnq [~nick@host-196.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 16:09:05 *rimshot* 16:09:09 beach: :D i was expecting some kind of reaction like that 16:09:25 Sorry! 16:09:26 <_8david> pmd: this data is coming from a large table of metadata about C++ classes. It understandable that they wanted to save space there as far as possible. They tables are large enough as is (several megabytes). 16:09:50 beach: np, it was really to be interpreted both ways 16:10:47 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:11:29 stassats: we might be able to stick that LDB in %foreign-funcall 16:13:05 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.89.222] has joined #lisp 16:13:10 *stassats* switches to clisp problems 16:14:55 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:16:49 heh: "Ruby is the language of Cloud 2" 16:16:53 morning folks 16:17:00 -!- pnq [~nick@host-196.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:17:07 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:17:27 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-97-46.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:17:32 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-20-39.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:27 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 16:19:49 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:20:02 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 16:20:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.24.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:22:13 billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.92] has joined #lisp 16:26:20 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tdiqneqdcrwhgfdb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:32:40 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has joined #lisp 16:33:15 If I defcstruct, and the C struct will get slots added to its end; will the now incomplete defcstruct definition still work 16:33:17 ? 16:33:57 tcr: should work, except wrt allocation 16:34:18 and alignment issues when embedding that struct elsewhere, etc 16:34:51 Good points 16:34:53 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:35:19 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@91.137.20.132] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:35:23 Gotta check out cffi-grovel later 16:36:50 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-37-161.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:36:51 -!- ignas [~ignas@88-222-145-120.meganet.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:36:52 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-185-84.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl51B780F7.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 16:40:05 tcr: but otherwise, many OSes depend on that for backward compatibility. 16:40:40 -!- Beeff [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:41:52 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:42:07 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:44:03 -!- billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:44:50 -!- pdk [~realname@c-67-163-243-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:47:47 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:47:48 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.70.249] has joined #lisp 16:49:51 -!- lhz [~user@88.131.67.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:51 -!- udzinari [~opera@nat/ibm/x-cbskaitbkmjnbwai] has left #lisp 16:50:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl51B780F7.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:52:25 -!- wvdschel_ [~wim@vpnk020.ugent.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:53:36 hm (let ..) introduces lexical scope, so if i wrap a function call inside a (let ..) it won't see that binding, *unless* it's shadowing a dynamic var. is that an accurate statement? 16:54:17 yan_: The called function won't have access to that binding. 16:54:39 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 16:54:53 [if it's a binding of a lexical variable] 16:55:22 beach: what if i do: (defun foo (..) ..) (defvar *x* ..) (let ((*x* new-val)) (foo arg)) .. it will see new-val, no? 16:55:53 beach: so in that case, (let ..) is doing something different? i.e. reassigning a dynamic var for that scope? 16:56:18 or is there a (let ..) equivalent that will set up a new 'dynamic scope' such that all functions called within it will have access to that var? i might be talking out of my butt here 16:56:31 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 16:56:48 yan_: yes, you're mostly correct. let does dynamic binding for special variables, where special means they're declared special (see declare/declaim), as in defvar and defparameter 16:57:07 yan_: When let is used with a special variable, then it binds that variable for the duration of the body of the let, independent of scope. 16:57:39 beach: i.e. all function calls that have that let somewhere in it's call stack, would see that shadowed value, correct? 16:57:39 yan_: so you can have (defun f () (declare (special x)) (* 2 x)) (let ((x 10)) (declare (special x)) (f)) and it'll return 20 16:57:50 Why does cffi-groveler's INCLUDE boild down to #include <>, i.e. why doesn't it let me chose whether I want to include a specific file, or one searched in the include path? 16:57:51 i.e. i can use it to declare environments 16:58:03 somnium [~user@184.42.17.189] has joined #lisp 16:58:35 yan_: Right, but we don't call it "shadowing", but "dynamic binding". 16:58:38 (How can I add a specific directory to the include path so cffi-groveler will see it?) 16:58:55 oh there's CC-FLAGS 16:59:36 beach: cool, thank you 17:01:12 -!- horze [~kim@c-0b1072d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: horze] 17:03:40 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:06:12 btw, does let dynamic rebinding add a thread-local binding or is it global? my confusion comes from the fact that one can start a process with a set of special bindings and those are "clearly" thread-local, but what about those not in the process's (os thread) initial special bindings? 17:06:29 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050068120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:06:36 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:07:39 pmd: it depends on the implementation. In SBCL, the toplevel dynamic bindings are global, and local ones (introduced via let or lambda, for instance) are thread-local. 17:08:49 pkhuong: that makes sense 17:09:29 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7553ca.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:29 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:11:20 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:28 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:42 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jjjmsdbbhkstcjqr] has left #lisp 17:13:47 pkhuong: do you know about other implementations? 17:14:28 I've never tried. 17:16:41 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 17:22:02 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:23:39 -!- Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:24:36 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 17:25:40 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:27:05 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:27:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.70.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:27:47 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.20.223] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:29:19 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:29:31 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:30:41 -!- mtk [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33:19 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:58 freddie111 [~user@150.140.233.71] has joined #lisp 17:35:10 -!- afat [afat@node-be0b984c.scarlet.an] has quit [] 17:35:20 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.182.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:48 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-97-46.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 17:38:36 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:19 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:54 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:16 _8david, stassats: I've recorded the FFI issue we discussed as LP bug #687434. 17:42:21 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 17:42:22 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 17:42:57 So I cannot define a foreign function in a grovelled file? 17:43:24 that's correct 17:43:36 a grovel file isn't CL code 17:44:16 But then I have to split up the foreign stuff in multiple files 17:44:36 yep 17:44:41 why couldn't it come with a cfun? 17:45:27 it would be pointless 17:45:49 mitre_ [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 17:46:33 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 17:46:35 I assume not having to split up your foreign definitions into multiple files does not count as point 17:46:36 mtk [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:15 Why? 17:47:18 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:47:41 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:56 I want to setup a linux box to run hunchentoot and program lisp. What distro can you recommend? 17:48:01 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 17:48:01 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 17:48:01 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:48:16 tcr: because it would mean that I'd have to maintain code that adds no functionality 17:48:34 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-aakywngfuenifsfe] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:48:58 Sounds like hard-to-maintain code 17:50:23 it's essentially a macro system that generates C code which generates CL code 17:50:26 the code is ugly 17:50:49 -!- mtk [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:51 mtk [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:53 rfg [~rfg@host81-102-107-233.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:21 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 17:54:59 -!- mtk [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 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18:18:55 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-138-18.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:57 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.219.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:20 -!- Steven_ is now known as sdsds_ 18:19:30 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:19:50 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:21:10 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:21:30 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:22:29 ASau [~user@95-26-92-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:22:51 Lochy [~lochy@59.94.103.205] has joined #lisp 18:26:40 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:03 mitre_: I like Debian. 18:29:36 i like whatever distro you like 18:29:42 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:15 stassats: I hate the distro I like, insensitive clod 18:30:46 clod, that's a good cl project name 18:31:00 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:17 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:31:23 something like "sensitive clod is the new modern mode" 18:31:59 I like CLOS 18:32:41 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:34:51 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 18:35:18 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432918.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:14 m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-212-31.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:40:46 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.254.109] has joined #lisp 18:42:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:45:27 kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:46:05 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:43 fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:47:51 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 18:48:14 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:36 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 18:50:15 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.254.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:50:40 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:52:37 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:52:42 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:12 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host212-104-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: be back later] 18:55:40 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-205-172.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:56:37 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-205-172.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:34 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 19:06:21 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 19:08:52 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 19:11:32 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-141-163.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:11:52 I want to read from a lisp file and have it run as code 19:12:06 cl:load is one way to do that. 19:12:38 Xach: Is that better than I'm doing: (eval (with-open-file (file #p"some_file.lisp") (read file nil nil))) ? 19:12:44 I don't want to use eval, obviously 19:12:59 -!- fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:13:04 cl:load is like that, but in a loop. 19:13:08 Why don't you want to use eval? 19:13:17 I thought it's best to avoid 19:14:13 Maybe. If you have code stored in a file and you want to evaluate it, eval is one of the first options that spring to mind. 19:14:26 You might need to back up and explain how code got into the file. 19:15:12 Database migration files, a la rails 19:15:18 Heh. That's the problem with rules like "eval is evil". "Eval is evil, except when it's not" might be better, but it's not as catchy. 19:15:27 ignas [~ignas@89.249.94.25] has joined #lisp 19:15:40 It seems like cl:load is a good option - it will evaluate the code in the current package, right? 19:15:46 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:15:53 fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:16:31 Yup, looks great :) 19:16:33 seangrove: it creates a new dynamic binding of *package* during loading. 19:16:51 seangrove: if *package* is modified by something in the file, the original binding is restored when load finishes. 19:17:02 usually (in-package ...) forms modify *package* during load. 19:17:32 But *package* is dynamically bound to the current package by default, no? 19:18:10 the current package is whatever is the value of *package*. 19:18:21 Perfect 19:18:40 seangrove: regarding eval - most of the time people think of using it for DSL, for which writing a small compiler+macros (which take your DSL, transform it then pass it to #'COMPILE) is better. There was some v. good short article on that, but I don't remember where 19:19:09 Xach: can ql delete old versions 0f a lib? 19:19:13 http://xach.livejournal.com/131456.html is something i wrote about it, though i don't know if it counts as v. good. 19:19:35 leo2007: An old version of a quicklisp-managed library? 19:19:47 yeah 19:20:37 leo2007: It doesn't do that yet. The old version is just ignored. 19:20:44 ok 19:20:48 leo2007: I need to add a library gc step of some sort. 19:21:04 that would be great. 19:21:07 -!- fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:03 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:22:34 hdurer_ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:02 cmsimon [~cmsimon@pool-98-108-146-154.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:02 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@pool-98-108-146-154.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:23:02 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 19:24:35 -!- HDurer_home [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:26:18 pdk [~realname@c-67-163-243-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:13 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:28:26 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host85-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:28:47 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:29:35 hun [~user@95-90-244-147-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:55 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:33:03 Bronsa [~bronsa@host249-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:33:20 araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has joined #lisp 19:33:21 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has quit [Changing host] 19:33:21 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:34:17 ymasory [~ymasory@grok.psych.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 19:35:17 fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:35:55 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:38:14 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:38:59 -!- sdsds_ [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:39:21 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:43 How do I define a 32-bit-signed Integer? 19:39:50 churib: For what purpose? 19:39:56 Reading a file 19:40:08 churib: What is the endianness? 19:40:26 big endian 19:41:12 churib: I do that by reading four octets and something like: (logior (ash o1 24) (ash o2 16) (ash o3 8) (ash o4 0)) 19:41:20 there are a number of other possible ways to do it. 19:41:54 churib: practical common lisp has a chapter about this sort of thing, too. 19:41:57 <_8david> binary-types was popular in this channel some years ago, but I've never used it 19:42:15 Quicklisp Installable® 19:42:25 Xach: Sounds good, will try that/read PCL, thanks! 19:44:31 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:54 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 19:45:19 read the whole integer, bswap if needed 19:45:41 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:47 mishoo [~mishoo@host212-104-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:48:22 yeah, will try read-sequence 19:48:42 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:48:45 *slyrus* misses clojure.core/comp 19:49:32 what's that? 19:49:34 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:38 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:49:46 a compose function that's built-in to the language 19:50:48 http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/comp 19:51:01 yeah, that one 19:51:11 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:51:37 Astrobe [~opera@117.138.85-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:38 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-190.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:52:03 I am new to CL, but shure that it can be done with macro-foo 19:52:25 yes, it has been done many times... I just wish it was built in, that's all. 19:53:04 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:09 wow, I read paste.lisp.org/newlisp in the topic. 19:54:18 slyrus: alexandria, which pretty much everything out there uses, has COMPOSE. 19:54:32 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:35 also curry/rcurry, and various other tools. 19:55:13 churib: you don't need a macro. Functions are first-class objects -- a function does the trick. 19:56:03 I seem to have lost a certain bookmark of mine - I rcall once seeing a tool to design URI schema (and afaik not only that) for "web services" (accessible through website). Has anyone stumbled upon something like it? 19:56:15 Xach: Thanks for the article, good read 19:57:18 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:57:54 -!- fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:58:09 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:58:49 fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:59:32 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:14 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@199.243.206.58] has joined #lisp 20:00:29 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 20:00:34 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 20:03:17 joeygibson [~joeygibso@c-98-230-153-52.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:59 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:08:34 -!- fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:08:35 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:08 Vivitron [ad4c080a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.76.8.10] has joined #lisp 20:11:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:11:48 fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:12:22 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:15:08 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.239.55] has joined #lisp 20:17:49 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.239.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:21 cmbntr [~cmbntr@77-56-85-227.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 20:19:50 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:20:07 -!- hdurer_ is now known as HDurer_home 20:20:07 -!- HDurer_home [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:20:07 HDurer_home [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 20:21:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:23:17 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has joined #lisp 20:24:31 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-168-129.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:25:36 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:46 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has quit [Client Quit] 20:27:33 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:20 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host249-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:28:52 Bronsa [~bronsa@host249-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:31:27 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:03 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:53 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:36:37 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 20:39:27 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:41:35 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 20:42:29 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 20:44:25 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:44:43 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-63.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:45:01 rread [~rread@c-24-5-127-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:27 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:47:51 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 20:49:43 hm, i can use #'assoc for (x . y) lists, but how do i get at members at &key-like lists.. i.e.: (:key1 val :key2 val)? 20:49:52 yan_: getf 20:49:59 thanks 20:50:06 yan_: those are often called property lists or plists. 20:50:21 yan_: and (x . y) lists are often called association lists or alists. 20:50:48 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host249-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:50:55 i knew about association lists, and i only heard plists being mentioned when they hang off of symbols.. wasn't sure what the generic name for them was 20:51:22 Bronsa [~bronsa@host249-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:51:35 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:52:10 and symbol-plist can apply to function names too, right? 20:52:35 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:16 eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 20:53:34 yan_: not necessarily. 20:53:52 yan_: only function names that are symbols. 20:54:28 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:29 see http://l1sp.org/cl/glossary/function_name 20:55:42 chemuduguntar [~user@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:35 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:41 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host249-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:01:43 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:32 boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:07:36 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:25 hm a design question.. i have a tree of closures, each of which return subsequent values when called (can think of them as enumerators for different sequences), however some of them need to be derived from other leaves in the tree. for example, I have nodes A and B in the tree, such that subsequent calls to A and B return 0, 1, 2, etc.. What i'm trying to do though, is have one of them be derived from another value, i.e.: A iterates (0 -> 5) but I want B to always be th 21:10:27 or A returns a numeric value and B always returns a string representation of the last thing A returned, where A and B are closures 21:11:09 -!- Astrobe [~opera@117.138.85-79.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 21:12:19 Astrobe [~opera@117.138.85-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:29 -!- rfg [~rfg@host81-102-107-233.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 21:12:59 yan_: (let ((x 0)) (list (lambda () (incf x)) (lambda () (princ-to-string x))) 21:13:16 Ralith: so you maintain the sequence in a common scope.. hmm 21:14:48 also, i had another question while perusing On Lisp: How is '(a b) and (list 'a 'b) different? 21:15:13 yan_: one is a list of a symbol and a list, and one is a list of a symbol and two lists. 21:15:35 yan_: when evaluated, the former results in a literal list of two symbols that should not be modified and the latter results in a fresh list of two symbols that you can modify at will. 21:16:12 how is a literal list diff from a fresh list? 21:16:20 -!- Astrobe [~opera@117.138.85-79.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 21:16:30 you can't modify the former 21:16:33 as Xach said 21:16:33 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:44 -!- joeygibson [~joeygibso@c-98-230-153-52.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:17:02 stassats: i mean how is it different implementation-wise 21:17:37 it can be put into a read-only space, it can be shared with any other literal lists 21:17:44 anything you can imagine 21:17:45 joeygibson [~joeygibso@c-98-230-153-52.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:15 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:51 -!- joeygibson [~joeygibso@c-98-230-153-52.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:20:16 if i have a (let ((var ..)) (foo)) and foo creates a closure, will var be visible to it? 21:20:24 yan_: no. 21:20:31 Xecutioner [~adrian@89.137.118.180] has joined #lisp 21:21:11 i.e., closures are lexical 21:21:24 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:21:45 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-141-163.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:22:02 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:23:12 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:29:48 what's the best way to approximate method dispatch on the values of strings, rather than type string? 21:29:55 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:30:10 slyrus: intern, and use eql specializers? 21:30:27 yeah, I was thinking about that. thanks tcr. 21:31:04 there's code in sbcl to extend the set of possible specializers 21:31:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:34:24 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 21:35:52 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 21:37:21 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:07 netytan [~netytan@host86-175-234-121.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:30 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 21:41:35 -!- cmbntr [~cmbntr@77-56-85-227.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: cmbntr] 21:47:30 -!- marijnjh [~user@p5DDB301B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:47:30 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:56 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:19 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-168-129.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:50:24 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.161.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:50:59 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-234-37.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: plediii] 21:51:44 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.184.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:52:20 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.146.242] has joined #lisp 21:57:01 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4410.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:03 Does anyone have some article to point me out which discuss making interactive REPL process without the use of global variables? 21:58:18 -!- mtk [~mtk@ool-182c8e6c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:00:03 didi: sorry, what are you trying to do? 22:00:11 Weird - I did (directory (merge-pathnames #p"db/migrations/*.lisp")), and I see a temp emacs file 22:00:19 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:00:27 So I deleted the emacs temp file, and it's no longer there by any way I can find it 22:00:34 but (directory (merge-pathnames #p"db/migrations/*.lisp")) keeps showing it 22:02:13 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 22:02:14 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:44 dlowe: Well, I am making a little game, in the spirit which we can see in Land of Lisp, but I am trying to use little, if any, global variables. 22:03:12 I was just wondering if someone has thought about this before. 22:03:28 didi: you can put a LET form on the REPL just fine 22:04:03 dlowe: Yeah, I know, but then the player will not be able to use the REPL, right? 22:04:17 I can call 'eval', I gues... 22:04:24 s/gues/guess 22:04:30 didi: I'm trying to find a good reason to let a game player use the REPL and failing 22:04:43 dlowe: Hum. That is true. 22:04:47 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo_] 22:05:22 didi: you might want to just print a prompt and call READ to get player input if you insist on using the reader 22:05:46 Posterdati [~tapioca@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:05:50 hi 22:06:07 dlowe: Well, maybe I didn't thought enough about this one. 22:06:12 dlowe: Thanks. 22:06:25 didi: sure thing 22:06:34 Is there any conventional wisdom regarding when to use SETF functions or when not to? 22:06:41 I'm developing on SBCL and slime fo emacs 23.2.1 on debian squeeze, and I have some questions :) 22:07:05 austinh: use them vs. what? 22:07:06 austinh: as opposed to what? 22:07:21 austinh: do you mean vs. setf expanders? 22:07:40 As opposed to a separate function with a different name, that you can't use PUSH, etc. with. 22:07:57 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:08:03 austinh: I think your separate function idea won't work that well :) 22:08:11 I'm just wondering if I might be getting overzealous with them. 22:08:19 I'm reading "Praise for Practical Common LISP" and I'm trying to understand and code examples on the book, especially that on the simply CD database. 22:08:25 What the hell... directory is still showing this file being here, *it's not there* 22:08:48 I'd say if a setf form makes the code more readable, use it. so if you find yourself wanting to use push on that thing, it's ok to have one 22:08:54 the question is may I use a global define variable as function parameter? 22:09:06 yes 22:09:09 Posterdati: yes 22:09:29 Posterdati: it has some interesting effects, but it will work 22:09:41 Jabberwock [~Jens@f050068120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:44 antifuchs, stassats: ok, now the problem is: I've got a global var (defvar *books-db* nil) 22:09:57 antifuchs: thanks 22:10:04 hm, i possibly see where your confused 22:10:07 -!- Jabberwock is now known as Guest93163 22:10:12 Jabberwockey: heh 22:10:13 if I write (push object *books-db*) 22:10:15 pass-by-value, vs. pass-by-reference? 22:10:29 object will be added to the global var 22:10:47 stassats: that's the point, how can I change its value? 22:11:22 by doing (push object *books-db*) 22:11:24 stassats: I think I passed it by-value, so its content will be not changed 22:12:08 stassats: (defun add-book (book db) (push book db)) 22:12:20 stassats: won't work as I expected 22:12:35 that's right, it won't 22:12:48 that's because push will alter the variable binding of the variable DB 22:12:49 stassats: right, because db is passed by-value 22:12:58 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050068120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:13:08 (add-book object *books-db*) 22:13:11 I can't figure out how to shadow from different packages 22:13:13 didn't work either 22:13:31 Two packages I'm trying to :use export the same symbols, how do I specify which I want to shadow? 22:13:37 you can define your add-book thing as a macro; or you can use the *books-db* variable name in the add-book function. 22:13:46 seangrove: :shadowing-import-from? 22:13:58 antifuchs: I don't want to use a specific var 22:13:59 antifuchs: Thanks, I'll look it up 22:14:02 or you can return a new list 22:14:10 minion: clhs :shadowing-import-from 22:14:11 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 22:14:22 (setf *books-db* (add-book book *books-db*)) 22:14:42 clhs defpackage 22:14:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 22:14:43 stassats: but I have to update the global variable I passed 22:15:07 antifuchs: Actually, that seems like I'll have to explicitely say which symbols I want to bring in from the package 22:15:08 stassats: ok I'm trying right now 22:16:11 stassats: I don't wont to use global variable in functions... 22:16:25 seangrove: yes, that's the idea, I think 22:16:49 Posterdati: you have a phobia of global variables? 22:17:11 I'd rather have an :except clause 22:17:20 I want to use :cl, but not :string or :integer 22:17:23 stassats: I think functions must relay on parameters only 22:17:40 And if I list every other symbol of cl:, that's going to be ugly 22:18:07 Posterdati: huh, but you're ok with destructively modifying data? 22:18:37 in (setf *books-db* (add-book book *books-db*)) add-book only relies on passed arguments 22:18:42 stassats: variable is stored in a file after manipulation 22:18:44 pepone [~pepone@121.246.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:19:08 sounds like you have some wrong preconceptions, forget about them 22:20:07 hi is posible to have a constant with defconst which value is a list i tried (defconstant magic '(0x49 0x63 0x65 0x50)) but that doesn't work 22:20:28 pepone: use defvar instead 22:21:06 it is possible to use defconstant, but there is no point 22:21:39 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 22:21:59 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@199.243.206.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:22:00 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host212-104-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:28 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@199.243.206.58] has joined #lisp 22:23:42 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-vyypfpkjwptmvtbz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:49 stassats: i need to send that magic as four bytes over a socket, is a list ther right thing 22:24:43 doesn't really matter, if it's only four bytes 22:25:14 but generally if you want to store binary data, use vectors specialized to (unsigned-byte 8) 22:25:48 ok thanks 22:26:06 e.g. (make-array length :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) 22:27:26 stassats: is there a way to pass a variable to a function as reference and if yes, how? Tx 22:28:08 you can pass the name of a variable, but you shouldn't really do this 22:28:21 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:28:43 i suggest not going over your head and reading Practical Common Lisp further 22:29:14 and i was referring to special variables, of course 22:29:24 stassats: ok 22:32:35 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 22:32:49 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:32:54 craiggle1 [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:20 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 22:34:30 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:35:55 -!- Guest93163 is now known as Jabberwockey 22:35:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-115.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:37:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl4E5CC38B.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 22:38:37 stassats: that's the answer!! http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1249991/variable-references-in-lisp 22:39:05 stassats: it is simply impossible, because vars can only be modified in their scope 22:39:43 stassats: but as you suggested I could make a function returning the new list 22:40:28 pnq [~nick@AC81CFD1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:35 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has joined #lisp 22:40:41 stassats: much better reference the global variable directly in the function 22:41:27 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:42 cmsimon [~cmsimon@c-67-171-163-253.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:42 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@c-67-171-163-253.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:41:42 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 22:41:44 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:42:43 -!- fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:29 Posterdati, If you are going to change the state of a global variable then just do it, or is that the conclusion you came to anyway? 22:45:03 Guthur: my purpose was to change a global var in a function... 22:47:01 stassats: works!!!! 22:47:11 stassats: great 22:47:21 Posterdati, Which approach did you take? 22:47:32 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:48:19 guthur: I modified the function in this manner: copy the db to a local var say mydb, adding new records to mydb, returns mydb 22:48:41 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 22:48:53 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:48:58 Guthur: something like: (defvar *books-db* nil) 22:49:25 Guthur: (setf *books-db* (add-books *books-db*)) 22:49:31 Uhg, I really can't figure this out 22:49:34 -!- churib [~tg@dslc-082-082-115-169.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:49:50 seangrove: check out how clim does it 22:50:08 The file *isn't* there, why is (directory ... showing it as being there? 22:50:16 seangrove: it defines a package, clim-lisp, that exports all cl symbols except the symbols exported from clim that overlap 22:50:20 I killed the sbcl process, restarted it, it's still there 22:50:29 Thanks for that too antifuchs, I'll check it out 22:50:35 seangrove: DIRECTORY returns truenames 22:50:49 so if you have a symlink to the file, you'll get the file name the link points to 22:50:58 Posterdati, ah ok, code makes it a lot clearer, hehe 22:50:58 this makes DIRECTORY very useless, yes. (-: 22:51:05 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:51:17 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:51:24 antifuchs: It was a emacs temp/autosave file. I rm'd it, and it's not there at all. DIRECTORY is still showing it :( 22:51:29 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:51:49 No idea where to go with this :P 22:51:55 seangrove: which files that match the directory form are symlinks? 22:52:11 the symlink /target/ is what is returned from directory. 22:52:28 antifuchs: None 22:52:30 One second 22:52:34 Guthur: I followed "Praise for Common LISP" example, but limitation on CD database example is that one can handle one DB at time, now one can define several DB at the time :) 22:53:14 Guthur: just to see how LISP works :) 22:53:24 Guthur: and it's very exciting 22:53:51 Guthur: it's amazing same time :) 22:53:55 antifuchs: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117473 - any ideas? 22:53:56 Posterdati: We call it Lisp these days. 22:54:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl4E5CC38B.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:54:10 sykopomp: only? 22:54:16 ideally. 22:54:24 sykopomp: why not LISP? 22:54:31 seangrove: try "ls -la" 22:54:35 Posterdati, Congrats on starting your lispy journey 22:55:05 Posterdati: I associate LISP with old LISP, and Lisp with Common Lisp. 22:55:09 antifuchs: That's it! 22:55:12 (-: 22:55:13 Guthur: I'd like to understand Lisp to understand AI approach to programming 22:55:20 jesus... 22:55:21 sykopomp: ah ok 22:55:40 Thank you very much... was utterly confused 22:55:42 Posterdati: and how the Hyperspec writes it, as well as other primary CL sources. 22:55:44 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:55:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl4E5CC38B.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 22:55:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl4E5CC38B.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:56:12 seangrove: no problem (: 22:56:39 hidden files can be annoying. it's why I always list them by default. 22:56:51 sykopomp: I've got an old book about LISP: LISP user guide, C. QUEINNEC 22:56:52 Is that the -a flag? 22:56:58 yeah 22:57:12 Posterdati, Lisp isn't really specialized for AI in any way. It's flexibility does lend itself to complex problem domains though 22:57:32 -!- hun [~user@95-90-244-147-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:57:46 Very expressive language in my opinion 22:57:48 Guthur: yes it is the approach... math intensively 22:58:05 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050068120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:58:11 Posterdati: you mean LiSP? 22:58:48 Guthur: c and c++ are good languages, but they lacks generality I think... Less abstraction 22:58:53 Posterdati: that's the name of the book, and it's an acronym for Lisp in Small Pieces (and it still writes it as 'Lisp') 22:59:50 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:50 sykopomp: ah a book? What about Common LISP: the language ??? 23:00:04 sykopomp: lol 23:00:27 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:00:51 Posterdati: Predates Common Lisp, of course :D 23:01:04 sykopomp: is it a valid book? 23:01:46 Posterdati: I'd recommend Practical Common Lisp if what you want to do is learn to use CL. 23:02:04 sykopomp: ok, I've got it 23:02:14 happy hacking :) 23:04:16 sykopomp: thanks 23:05:01 sykopomp: I'm in the embedded world, and I like to see if it is possible to run Lisp programs on emebedded cpu, just to develop AI programs 23:05:13 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-108-109.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:05:32 dfox_ [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-182.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 23:05:42 sykopomp: I use to program in c, that it is great for embedded systems... :) 23:06:14 Posterdati: depending on your definition of 'embedded', I don't know of any Lisp implementation that's meant to run on 23:06:18 -very- restricted hardware. 23:06:41 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:07:03 sykopomp: well nowadays embedded system can run linux easily 23:07:23 sykopomp: e.g. texas OMAP cpus based on ARM 23:07:25 but there's some implementations that are working on being useful on android, ios, etc. 23:07:51 -!- Xecutioner [~adrian@89.137.118.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:08:02 sykopomp: I do not expect to see repl on an ATMEL ATmega 8 :) 23:08:10 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:08:33 aidalgol [~user@132.181.15.184] has joined #lisp 23:10:15 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:10:24 Xecutioner [~adrian@89.137.118.180] has joined #lisp 23:10:30 sykopomp: someone on #ai or #machinelearning told me about Prof. Skiena's book: The Algorithm Design Book :( 23:10:32 :) 23:12:26 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:12:52 -!- m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-212-31.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: m7d] 23:15:35 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@199.243.206.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:15:39 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-202.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:16:20 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-202.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:16:34 sykopomp: do you actually know that book? 23:18:19 -!- ignas [~ignas@89.249.94.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:18:38 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:19:18 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:43 Posterdati: which? 23:19:49 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 23:20:10 Xach: The Algorithm Design Manual 23:20:28 *Xach* isn't familiar with it 23:20:59 *austinh* started reading it recently 23:21:17 austinh: I think could be useful 23:22:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:23:59 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:24:43 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:25:51 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:26:23 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:27:27 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:29:28 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: Smoke was slowly rising as the light began to fade] 23:32:29 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:32:32 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:47 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:36:11 -!- eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has left #lisp 23:42:00 mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@12.155.80.90] has joined #lisp 23:43:31 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:46:48 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:51 -!- pepone [~pepone@121.246.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:49 xan_ [~xan@26.Red-88-24-228.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:55 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-182.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:59:33 -!- craiggle1 [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]