00:00:39 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-152-179-183.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: jconrad] 00:03:53 Madsy^ [~madman@ti0207a340-0958.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:04:28 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7574ba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:22 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.56.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:34 -!- eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:05:38 rfg [~rfg@host81-102-105-24.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:46 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:08:52 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@63-255-108-233.ip.mcleodusa.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:29 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:09:53 -!- gfym [~gfym@c-98-207-21-18.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:12:01 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-47.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:12:20 -!- emma is now known as em 00:18:02 -!- aricshow [~aric@17.sub-69-96-31.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: night.] 00:18:54 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:25:34 -!- churib [~tg@dslc-082-082-119-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:29:56 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A39D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:38:08 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 00:38:13 Jasko [~tjasko@63-255-108-233.ip.mcleodusa.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:01 -!- jeti [~user@p54B4652F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:51:40 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-245-93.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:10 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:54:34 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@grok.psych.upenn.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:04 -!- deepfire_ is now known as deepfire 00:55:38 walt [~walt@c-4f6644fd-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 00:56:44 I would like to use a lisp dialect as a frontend for openframeworks, which is a C++ library for creative performance programming. Which implementation would best allow this? 00:58:02 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:59:26 walt, you might want to read sbcl10.sbcl.org/materials/dlichteblau/smoke.pdf 01:00:45 I suspect that you won't be constrained to any implementation any more than the cl-smoke C++ machinery will mandate. 01:01:16 deepfire: thanks. It seems very relevant 01:04:04 walk, it manages to work by exploiting QT's introspective facilities, AFAICT, which is unlikely to be compatible with your requirements. 01:04:18 er, walt, sorry 01:04:55 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-197-147.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:15 Or, maybe things changed since, and it was generalised, I don't know, really. 01:06:26 ASau [~user@95-27-197-147.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 01:07:26 -!- konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:09:05 -!- kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:11:07 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:13:25 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-183-82.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:14:51 -!- davazp [~user@36.Red-79-153-149.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:16 walt: I have a project on backburner for dealing with C++, but i got sidetracked 01:15:35 p_l|home: that's what usually happens :) 01:15:46 a shame, I really thought there would be ready solutions for this 01:16:22 Are there any recommmended libraries for doing raster graphics in CL? (something like SDL, perhaps). I'm looking around on cliki and a lot of projects seem immature/stagnant/dead 01:16:31 walt: not yet, but I think many would be interested. Otherwise, hand-rolled C wrappers are fairly common 01:17:03 pkhuong: yeah, well, that is something I really don't feel like doing, since I would first have to wrap the C++ in C :( 01:18:04 walt: you can try to generate them from DWARF debugging data (: 01:18:53 necroforest: there's at least one actively-developed wrapper for SDL (lispbuilder-sdl), and a couple opengl libraries (which you can use to render bitmap textures on a quadrangle). 01:19:22 ok, thanks 01:19:25 i was looking at that one 01:19:34 wasn't sure if it was actively being maintained 01:20:23 the last update was on nov 13th. 01:21:37 the latest package on the site is march 2010 01:22:27 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@178.2.110.114] has quit [Quit: humhum] 01:23:10 seangrove [~user@user-64-9-234-26.googlewifi.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:19 _ism [~frinnn@i59F62B60.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 01:27:50 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:39 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:28:39 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 01:33:10 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:35:16 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:37:03 walt: the issue is that C++ is bloody crazy to interop with 01:37:26 upwardindex [~Adium@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:38:16 p_l|home: I am well aware of this 01:38:23 I wish openframeworks was written in C 01:38:26 but it isn't :( 01:39:35 my current idea now, since there is not any simple lisp interop solution avilable, is probably to wrap the functionality I need in C, run swig on it, and use lua, for now. 01:39:56 then maybe lisp if I have the energy to set it up 01:40:00 walt: once you have a C wrapper, I don't see the point of going through swig necessarily, or to use lua instead of lisp. 01:40:16 pkhuong: just that it is a simple workflow that I know more about 01:40:24 actually, I do see the point of using Lua, but it wouldn't be much simpler. 01:41:20 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #lisp 01:41:38 I'll see what I decide. Thanks for the heads up on stuff. 01:42:09 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44:24 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-133-248-102.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:44:55 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::22:9e03] has joined #lisp 01:47:36 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 01:48:39 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:49:21 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-47.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 01:49:37 How would you call a DOLIST-like macro for sequences? DO-SEQUENCE, DOSEQUENCE or DOSEQ? 01:51:07 Hexstream: you could just use sequence-iterators 01:51:09 minion: sequence-iterators 01:51:10 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``sequence-iterators''. 01:51:16 http://common-lisp.net/project/sequence-iterators/ 01:51:38 konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has joined #lisp 01:52:46 Hexstream: DOLOOP *ducks* 01:52:53 :D 01:52:55 fe[nl]ix: That won't do for my needs. 01:53:09 Loopless is coming along nicely. 01:53:17 Excellent. 01:54:25 Yesterday I came up with 2 macros that will leave LOOP's puny, nearly worthless MINIMIZING, MAXIMIZING and SUMMING clauses in the dust so much it's not even funny. 01:54:44 (They're currently being implemented.) 01:55:28 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:04 There will be a lot of hard facepalming when people finally realize how trivially LOOP can be done away with. 01:56:39 Seems unlikely. 01:56:45 And without really losing what are thought to be some of its nicest features (like for-as-arithmetic), in fact. 01:56:50 Why one would want to get rid of LOOP is still a mystery to me. 01:57:07 schmrkc: Maybe it makes sense if you swing from one absurd extreme to another willy-nilly. 01:57:11 schmrkc: Well, have you had a good look at the Loopless documentation, for one thing? 01:57:18 Nope. 01:57:37 Well, no wonder it's still a mystery. You're not helping yourself very much. 01:57:37 I haven't looked at loopless since well.. some other time you talked about it. 01:57:40 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@219.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57:47 I found it not looking nice at all tbh. 01:57:49 At that time it was a shitty 3-days project, mostly. 01:58:15 The design of Loopless is not immediately, intuitively apparent. 01:58:37 It's easy to dismiss it as a piece of clueless crap on first sight. But there's more than meets the eye. 01:59:00 Damnit, I feel like a fucking marketer. 01:59:00 I dismissed it as something that didn't seem to fit me at all. 01:59:16 Well, exactly. 01:59:28 Maybe try to use it and see if it breaks down as bad as you think it will. 01:59:46 Of course, that will be hard to do if you have some "real respect" for how LOOP does things. 02:00:02 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Quit:] 02:00:53 Hexstream: I'm reading http://www.loopless.org/doc/Loopless-over-LOOP.html#Loopless-over-LOOP 02:01:00 Hexstream: I like the LOOP much better than MAPCAR. 02:01:18 Why? You dread writing LAMBDA? 02:01:34 I used to, too ;P 02:01:38 I don't dread it at all. It's just prettier to look at. 02:01:46 Hexstream: Have you read Let Over Lambda? 02:01:53 and quite the nicer to parse for my head. 02:02:51 Xach: No, but from what little I know about it, it looks like a pretty clueless book. It sounded like it was written by a newb that still hadn't "gotten over" how great lisp is. Like he was still being in the first "illumination" phase. I found a few obvious errors in the first chapter. 02:03:40 What was the motivation of the question? 02:04:28 -!- walt [~walt@c-4f6644fd-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:05:50 Was that the guy that was complaining about the "earmuffs" convention and said it reduced the power of lisp or something? I was like, WTF. 02:06:34 Hexstream: that FOR* is not pretty, IMO. 02:06:51 It certainly isn't conventional. But it's so damn useful. 02:07:07 Doesn't look much different than the LET it replaces. 02:07:33 It "scales" much better to more complex scenarios. 02:07:49 Like if you refer to the variable multiple times. 02:08:30 And you don't have to use PROG1 and stuff if you want to use SETF to do the updating. That was fucking annoying when I hadn't yet come up with FOR*. 02:08:49 The nice thing about STEP* is that it doesn't steal a level of indentation. 02:09:47 You also don't necessarily have to call it once per execution of the loop's body, though I never used that possibility so far. 02:10:09 You could do the stepping only if some condition is true, or you could step twice, or something. 02:10:29 One scenario I thought about recently is as a replacement for LOOP's COUNTING. 02:11:24 Like, you declare a (for* ((count-stuff from 0)) ...) and then in the body, you do (if count-condition (step*)) 02:12:19 Oh, and it also makes the stepping "strategy" all clear and in one place. 02:12:48 Instead of having the initializing at the top in the LET and then the stepping at the bottom of the body. See? 02:12:53 *gigamonkey* wonders if anyone has been swayed by Hexstream's relentless marketing of Loopless 02:12:55 -!- Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:13:02 FOR* is not as gratuitous as it seems ;P 02:13:32 *schmrkc* hasn't. 02:13:46 Hum. Does "swayed" necessarily have negative connotations?... 02:13:59 I don't think so. 02:14:10 Nice! 02:14:31 Well, one guy emailed me to say my project is "worthy". 02:14:45 I guess that counts as some swaying. 02:14:53 I'm all for your project. 02:15:52 -!- dsteinberg [~dsteinber@adsl-71-138-134-142.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:16:33 Anyway, when I release my next libraries, some of them pretty fucking crazy, maybe you'll see that Loopless works. Your skepticism won't last long against the relentless enticements of my awe-inspiring projects. 02:17:33 I don't think anyone is doubting that it works. 02:18:03 They're doubting that LOOP is really bad style and unnecessarily complex? 02:18:31 That's what I'm doubting anyway. 02:18:32 And, believe it or not, underpowered in some ways. 02:18:35 -!- konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:20:39 There is no other construct in Common Lisp that looks anything like LOOP. That's some red flag if you ask me. And then you find that with a small collection of straightforward utilities (plus a few less straightforward like FOR*), plus the rest of Common Lisp (well, other way around), you can make it completely redundant. Second red flag. Anyway, I'll spare you the remaining of my usual arguments. 02:21:00 konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has joined #lisp 02:21:32 Seems to me that the Common Lisp standard is lacking in some areas, such as processing of alists and plists, only because LOOP provided a "satisfactory" (lol) way to process them. 02:21:51 I find Common Lisp standard lacking in a few areas too. 02:22:32 schmrkc: Which ones? 02:22:43 parallelisation for starters. 02:23:01 Ah, well, that's something really nontrivial. 02:23:20 even just threads. 02:23:22 All the shit wasn't going multicore in 1980whatever. 02:23:36 Obviously. 02:23:37 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:23:43 -!- upwardindex [~Adium@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:25:09 I never really liked LOOP, I'm reading your "Loopless over LOOP" text and nodding at some of the points 02:25:40 drdo: Cool. And that page isn't half as convincing as it could be, I rushed it off. 02:25:48 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.110.118] has joined #lisp 02:26:03 Hexstream: I wouldn't mind MOPery being standardised either. 02:26:53 schmrkc: That would be super awesome! Though I hear it's not a big problem in practice. But I'm sure it would promote adoption by making a formal statement: "Yes, that is definitely well-supported everywhere that matters". 02:27:24 I guess it's like LOOP then. Not a big problem in practice. 02:28:13 schmrkc: It won't prevent you from being a programmer god, probably. 02:28:26 Nope. It sure didn't. 02:28:40 It's still broken and unnecessary enough that it should be taken out and shot. 02:29:03 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:29:15 Hexstream: That's not going to happen. 02:30:24 I'm more interested in "Should it happen?" than in "Will it happen?" 02:30:42 Hexstream: It shouldn't, and won't. 02:31:00 At least, those who don't like it shouldn't feel obliged to use it anyway. 02:31:06 Why shouldn't it? 02:31:09 That is the current situation. 02:31:20 Epona [~Erika@c-69-254-165-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:29 Loop is very handy, and people like it. 02:31:58 Not all people, I hear. 02:32:30 Erika [~Erika@c-69-254-165-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:32 Good thing unanimous support isn't required for features in CL. 02:32:37 It would be very small. 02:33:35 Well, why not "eventually" (20 years?) deprecate LOOP and move it in an optional library or something? 02:33:46 It's redundant with so much of the rest of the language... 02:34:20 That isn't a problem in practice. 02:35:00 It's an unnecessary burden on CL implementors?... Of course I don't know jackshit about CL implementation ;P 02:35:01 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:35:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:35:34 Ugliness really bothers me deeply 02:35:38 Lately distaste for certain features is not seen as a permissible reason to fail to implement them. 02:35:47 -!- Epona [~Erika@c-69-254-165-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:36:14 That wasn't always the case for e.g. CLISP. 02:36:36 I agree that anything that is in the standard must be implement. 02:36:45 As to what should be in the standard, that's another question ;P 02:37:00 But yeah, I get it, you're a thoroughly pragmatic guy. 02:37:17 To be honest, i don't much like this language as a set-in-stone standard 02:37:49 Hinders evolution 02:38:01 arbscht has an mp3 for you! 02:38:05 whats wrong with lisp 02:38:07 well, he will, eventually. 02:38:38 Broad questions elicit broad answers. 02:39:07 personally, I mean 02:39:30 Beach takes LOOP as a primitive, and implements the other sequence functions and macros with it... 02:39:36 in sicl. 02:39:51 What does he do about LOOP-FINISH? 02:40:10 And I think it introduces problems with declarations. 02:40:58 Seems like a textbook example of abstraction inversion. 02:41:05 Or whatever they were calling it. 02:41:27 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AbstractionInversion 02:42:44 Well, I wouldn't do it either. 02:42:59 That's not much worse than using LOOP as a design pattern to emulate MAPCAR and such, though. Such gems as (loop for element in '(1 2 3) collect (1+ element)). Never fails to make me giggle. 02:43:23 One could argue indeed that you have to implement the whole CL to get LOOP. 02:43:30 Well, where the list is not a literal, obviously. 02:44:01 I don't think so... 02:44:18 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:44:33 replete [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:52 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 02:48:31 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.110.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:49:11 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:49:52 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:58:56 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:59:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:59:27 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:13:16 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 03:14:13 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:14:26 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:19 jashkenas [~jashkenas@cpe-67-244-104-172.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:10 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:31:30 -!- gz__ [~gz@826ahost106.starwoodbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: gz__] 03:32:43 gz_ [~gz@826ahost106.starwoodbroadband.com] has joined #lisp 03:33:40 gz__ [~gz@826ahost106.starwoodbroadband.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:04 -!- gz_ [~gz@826ahost106.starwoodbroadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34:04 -!- gz__ [~gz@826ahost106.starwoodbroadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34:08 gz___ [~gz@826ahost106.starwoodbroadband.com] has joined #lisp 03:34:22 pkhuong: gah, please don't put up example code on the web which declares packages/symbols with strings :( 03:34:37 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 03:35:00 -!- gz___ [~gz@826ahost106.starwoodbroadband.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:36:21 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:06 15 03:39:29 15? 03:39:39 adu: wrong window! 03:43:14 quick question ... I've been starting on the Land of Lisp, and browsing around some of the top projects on Github... Does anyone have a link to a particular Lisp project they consider especially worth reading? 03:44:43 jashkenas: http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ 03:44:50 mathrick: I'm quite comfortable with breaking modern mode. 03:45:04 jashkenas: there are a lot of projects on http://common-lisp.net too. 03:45:29 pjb: any particular one you'd recommend for reading? 03:45:48 pkhuong: not just breaking modern mode, but you're being a dick for everyone who has a different readtable-case, for absolutely no gain 03:46:15 it's code like that that made :INVERT impossible to use in practice 03:47:14 jashkenas: well, I'm interested by AI software, so I'd rather read eg. COLAB, daydreamer, LISA> 03:47:16 . 03:47:50 tgg [~tgg@pool-71-174-251-39.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:59 -!- tgg [~tgg@pool-71-174-251-39.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:49:16 mathrick: huh? works just fine with :invert. 03:50:13 pkhuong: no, because then people assume that symbols are always printed in uppercase and proceed to generate symbol names with FORMAT 03:50:35 raw strings are just not an acceptable symbol designators 03:51:29 pkhuong: also, even if it only broke modern mode, it's still a dickish thing to do. You don't gain anything from it, and you're deliberately making unusable a feature that's been put into the spec 03:51:29 -!- jashkenas [~jashkenas@cpe-67-244-104-172.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jashkenas] 03:52:00 "FOO" is not even easier to type than :foo 03:52:29 so, I'm being a dick because some people don't know how to generate symbols? 03:53:01 :foo pollutes the keyword package. at least use #:foo. 03:53:48 I don't like modern mode. 03:53:56 pkhuong: no, but proclaiming that you're comfortable breaking modern mode does steer in that direction, and if respectable people in the lisp world write code which happily refers to symbols with string, you're giving an impression it's an okay thing to do, which it isn't 03:54:06 pjb: you don't need to. You're not required to use it 03:54:12 just don't break it 03:54:45 all it takes is not to use raw strings when you don't have to 03:57:13 personally I think the "dick" here is not the one contributing perfectly valid CL code 03:57:46 I actually dislike symbols and find their overuse makes it harder to analyse CL. 03:58:11 adeht: it's not "perfectly valid". That's the point 03:58:41 chapter and verse from the ANSI spec, please 03:58:42 I've been forced to resign from using :INVERT because of too much code which just assumed a specific readtable-case 03:59:13 adeht: it breaks code using :DOWNCASE readtable-case, which is defined in the spec 03:59:15 mathrick: nobody forces you to do anything 03:59:28 adeht: in practical terms, it did force me 03:59:41 pkhuong: I'm not quite sure what you mean by that 03:59:47 you need to learn to accept responsibility for your own choices 04:00:16 adeht: you need not to be happy about breaking others' code gratuitiously 04:00:34 mathrick: nobody is breaking your code 04:00:41 except yourself, perhaps 04:01:26 mathrick: it breaks :downcase as much as CL itself. |DEFUN| isn't |defun|. 04:01:45 adeht: okay, so let's phrase it differently: making your code not compile on my system where there's absolutely no reason other than you assumed a specific readtable-case is bad style 04:02:27 pkhuong: but :INVERT is a perfectly valid setting which could work Just Fine if code didn't assume :UPCASE blindly 04:02:45 mathrick: that at least is better than personal attacks 04:02:46 and it's a better setting than :UPCASE for many reasons 04:03:27 mathrick: again, it doesn't break :invert. 04:03:36 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A770F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:04:12 pkhuong: no, but again, it gives an impression it's okay to refer to symbols with plain strings, which it isn't, for reasons outlined above. And it buys you nothing. Zero. Nil 04:04:23 "FOO" is not easier to type than #:foo 04:04:29 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:33 it's not easier to read either 04:05:08 it might even be argued it 04:05:22 's harder, because you talk about symbols, but use strings 04:05:26 agayev [~agayev@pool-71-255-166-77.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:31 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@247-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:56 lemoinem [~swoog@170-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:20 mathrick: not really, it talks about symbol names, hence why it accepts a string designator 04:07:20 I do find it easier to read and write, actually. 04:07:57 pkhuong: you must have some kind of magical keyboard then, if typing something in quotes is easier than prepending it with : or #: 04:08:27 easy is subjective 04:08:47 mathrick: paredit. 04:09:02 pkhuong: I find paredit's support for quotes very sub-par 04:09:12 it does the wrong thing a lot of the time 04:09:24 perhaps more than it does the right thing 04:09:35 mathrick: I don't often type the export lists myself... 04:10:15 pjb: then you surely don't need to make them strings, if you can generate the non-breaking code just as easily 04:10:30 or non-misleading 04:11:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:11:14 mathrick: The code I write tends to be strictly conforming. It's up to the implementations to accept conforming code. 04:11:45 mathrick: notice that clisp, which provides modern packages has no problem dealing with mines (it's my main implementation). 04:12:00 pjb: your code, now that's something that breaks :invert (: 04:12:10 pjb: it breaks with :invert 04:12:38 although you're at least consistent: all of it breaks 04:12:47 mathrick: at least, mine tend to be either all upcase or all downcase. You will find aa lot of older code that is much more aphazardly capitalized... 04:13:08 and I find it horrible for aesthetic reasons even more than for breakability reasons 04:13:48 I find my pink terminal helps eith aesthetic issues. 04:14:12 green text on pink background, yes 04:14:18 the devil codes in prada? 04:14:20 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F311.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:17:38 pkhuong: either way, I felt like speaking up primarily because you're someone whose code many people will read. People who might not have as good a grip of the various subtleties of what is and isn't a good idea when referring to symbols 04:18:03 and judging by the amount of code that just plain breaks with :INVERT, most people don't have a firm grip on it 04:18:18 including CFFI, which breaks very hard when subjected to :INVERT 04:19:46 mathrick: I'm told CFFI accept patches. 04:20:53 mathrick: I could give consideration using #:foo instead of "FOO", in the future. 04:21:01 pkhuong: that's very nice, but patching every package under the sun is not fun. Especially when it's something as intricate as CFFI's internal machinery 04:21:13 pjb: that'd be very much appreciated 04:21:30 -!- agayev [~agayev@pool-71-255-166-77.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:21:54 pjb: although your preference for YELLING IN YOUR CODE ALL '80S STYLE does break :invert consistently already :) 04:22:10 has anyone here used lispbuilder-sdl? does asdf-install'ing it automatically install the extra components (i.e, ttf)? 04:22:11 but there are the elisp macros you made for downcasing it, so it's fine 04:22:12 az [~az@p5796CE46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:33 necroforest: i've used lispbuilder-sdl fine on linux. was a little tricky on mac os x. 04:22:44 mathrick: I realized recently that it depended on the font used. In some fonts, it's nice to have the text in upcase. In some other fonts, it's ugly and unreadable. 04:22:46 yeah, i'm on linux 04:23:14 pjb: interesting. I've yet to see a font that'd make it pleasant to read all-upcase 04:23:18 necroforest: i used quicklisp to get it, and it got everything, but quicklisp is in the middle of maintenance at the moment. 04:23:21 necroforest: using Xach's quicklisp will get all of that foryou i think 04:23:32 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:23:35 ah 04:23:41 as soon as the dns propagates it should work fine. 04:24:09 mathrick: yes, there are such fonts. It seems they're in the sans-serif category. 04:24:44 hmm 04:25:06 asdf-install won't work for lispbuilder-sdl-ttf, i guess because the .tgz file has been taken down 04:25:25 yeah i couldn't snag it either last week 04:25:49 pkhuong: also, you're very welcome to consider my plea a form of preemptive patching of code I won't then have to submit patches to :) 04:26:31 I use #:foo from time to time, but it's more of a pain to type and edit, and I'm not convinced on the readability issue. 04:27:33 I find it easier to type than "FOO", since I only need to press shift for two adjacent keystrokes at the beginning, not for the whole thing 04:27:44 and what do you mean by pain to edit? 04:28:02 I find parenscript's strings extremely painful to edit meaningfully 04:33:27 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:46:18 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:21 -!- em is now known as emma 04:48:36 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 04:55:17 -!- seangrove [~user@user-64-9-234-26.googlewifi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:57:11 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:58:34 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:59:14 Good morning everyone! 05:00:10 Good not-really-morning beach! 05:02:50 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.66.205.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:06:02 cmm [~cmm@109.66.205.250] has joined #lisp 05:07:16 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:24 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:09:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:11:56 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 05:12:22 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-3-95.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 05:13:50 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:58 morning beach 05:14:57 oph3lia [~ophelia@c-76-99-56-10.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:28 heya :) 05:15:40 Hello oph3lia 05:15:46 sup in these chats? 05:16:00 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-124-9.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:16:28 oph3lia: You must be new here, right? 05:16:47 ivorobotnik [~chever@ubps-stu1-w01.pubsites.buffalo.edu] has joined #lisp 05:18:51 oph3lia, (you have (to '(talk-like-this)) in-this (channel)) 05:19:17 ha 05:24:41 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 05:24:42 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 05:24:42 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 05:28:49 how do i leave a note for nyef 05:29:52 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:54 .memo 05:29:56 ,memo 05:29:58 minion: 05:30:01 minion: help 05:30:02 There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 05:30:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:30:21 dto: You say "minion: memo for nyef: ...." and don't forget the `:' 05:31:05 minion: memo for nyef: i'd like to help you try reproducing my sdl crash, ping me when you're online sometime. 05:31:05 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 05:31:09 great 05:31:11 thanks 05:31:16 Sure, no problem. 05:31:19 -!- ivorobotnik [~chever@ubps-stu1-w01.pubsites.buffalo.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:34:02 mathrick: While I agree with you in principle, I think you could have chosen a different way of putting it to pkhuong, and I also think it is not going to pay off calling people "a dick". You'll be happy to know that using #:bla as designators for symbol names is in the specification of SICL. 05:34:42 assimilate [~chever@ubps-stu1-w01.pubsites.buffalo.edu] has joined #lisp 05:35:29 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has joined #lisp 05:38:11 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 05:40:13 oiji [~oiji@host-81-190-161-75.gorzow.mm.pl] has joined #lisp 05:40:21 hey guys what are some good libraries for interfacing to MS SQL with Lisp 05:40:47 CL-SQL? 05:40:52 hello is anyboy there? I have a question about mdi in borland builder. Can anybody help me? 05:41:02 i don't know why you'd use MS SQL int he first place though.. 05:41:33 the question is why in child window is still visible button from parent window? 05:41:55 oiji: Does your question have anything to do with Lisp? 05:41:56 cl-sql appears not to support ms sql :( 05:42:11 -!- rfg [~rfg@host81-102-105-24.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 05:42:55 assimilate, it supports ODBC 05:43:13 is there a particular reason you chose MS SQL? 05:43:15 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:43:32 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 05:43:57 Hmm, I don't seem to be able to use Lisppaste. When I click the submit button, I get a blank window as opposed to a confirmation and a paste number. Does anyone else have this problem? 05:46:29 Ah, found it by searching recent pasts: http://paste.lisp.org/+2IJJ 05:46:42 necroforest: I have to 05:47:06 It shows the difference in speed and number of bytes allocated between some cases of SICL count and SBCL count. 05:47:34 assimilate, requirements? 05:47:47 well it's just part of my job 05:47:56 it just seems weird to require MS SQL Server for a project and then let code be done in Lisp.. 05:48:09 since I have a job now I can't just tinker 05:48:13 mitre__ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:18 that's a nice company policy actually 05:48:31 what is? 05:48:39 assimilate: You probably should use Visual Basic as well then. 05:48:40 they let my position use whatever programming language I want as long as I get the job done 05:48:43 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:48:55 -!- mitre__ is now known as mitre 05:48:55 that is nice 05:49:30 -!- clop3 [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:50:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:52:43 "CLSQL has been tested with unixODBC ODBC Driver Manager as well as Microsoft's ODBC manager." 05:58:52 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA35478.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: must sleep] 05:59:36 -!- Erika is now known as epona 06:00:15 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:01:20 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:01:32 phaer [~phaer@chello080108090109.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 06:01:59 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04:43 clop3 [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 06:12:33 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:41 -!- phaer [~phaer@chello080108090109.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:12:49 -!- oiji [~oiji@host-81-190-161-75.gorzow.mm.pl] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 06:22:36 -!- assimilate [~chever@ubps-stu1-w01.pubsites.buffalo.edu] has left #lisp 06:26:05 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.66.205.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:27:43 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.5.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:27:48 Snamich [~Snamich@pcp067126pcs.wireless.calpoly.edu] has joined #lisp 06:28:22 xinming [~hyy@115.221.5.149] has joined #lisp 06:32:30 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:34:17 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:39:23 I suppose a function such as count-if, when given from-end=true could check whether the predicate given is side-effect-free (provided such information exists), and then go from start to end instead. On the other hand, it seems likely that, if from-end=true was given, then it was for good reasons. What do others think? 06:39:39 -!- epona [~Erika@c-69-254-165-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:39:50 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.19.135] has joined #lisp 06:42:40 -!- easyE [cOt63ZFenk@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:44:25 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:46:53 Hey stassats! 06:47:05 beach: good morning 06:47:41 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:49:13 i see your question, i don't know what clhs have to say about it, but in my view, if there's no observable differences, then compiler can do it 06:50:39 stassats: Yes, I think that's true, but I also think it might not be worth the effort. The only situation I can imagine is when from-end=true was used even though it wasn't clear that it was really going to be needed. I am thinking such cases might be rare. 06:50:54 stassats: This paste: http://paste.lisp.org/+2IJJ is an example of the difference in performance of SICL count and SBCL count (for from-end=true). 06:52:54 Anyway, it's amusing to me to revisit every CL function and think through how it might be implemented. I suppose people working with a goal to finish an entire implementation do not have the time or patience to do that, so sometimes come up with suboptimal solutions. 06:53:11 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432918.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:53:50 i'd go with "let's get something reasonable working, and then we'll care about performance" 06:54:05 *beach* is taking advantage of the silence to come up with some random blabbing. 06:54:15 stassats: But that's not quite as fun! :) 06:54:19 haha! 06:59:05 hello, I have PAIP and PCL and I am considering buying these too: http://imagebin.org/126289. 06:59:43 Can someone recommend another one to the list? Thanks. 07:00:02 i'd strike let over lambda, and replace little schemer with seasoned schemer or reasoned schemer 07:02:00 What's the general opinion of LoL around here? From what I can recall from my research, most people that have been using lisp for a while don't regard it too highly while those newer to the language think it's great. 07:02:06 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.97] has joined #lisp 07:02:58 stassats: is it worth having both seasoned and reasoned schemer? 07:02:59 Tools for neophytes may not suite others. 07:03:09 Snamich: i haven't read it, i've only seen what macros it introduces and they are horrifying 07:03:12 er, suit. 07:03:27 I want books that will refer to from time to time. 07:03:35 not something read once and throw away. 07:04:01 leo2007: i haven't actually read them 07:04:27 and i don't know how good you're at scheme, and maybe you indeed need to read Little Schemer 07:06:26 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 07:07:33 Should the little schemer be read after or before SICP? If after I'll purchase it. 07:08:15 i'd say read SICP before anything 07:08:30 because it's about programming in general 07:09:53 Any other good/classic lisp books to own? 07:10:03 AMOP? 07:10:34 minion: Keene? 07:10:35 Keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/Keene 07:11:01 I haven't made it all the way through it, but I worked through a lot of SiCP before going back to read Little Schemer and I wasn't getting much out of it. 07:11:09 stassats: I read Kneene's book from library and take notes already. 07:11:48 Snamich: thanks for that. I'll leave it for now. 07:11:54 minion: amop? 07:11:54 amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the specification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 07:11:55 xl [~xl@120.83.209.226] has joined #lisp 07:12:57 stassats: weirdly amop is not on amazon uk. 07:13:32 easyE [2pxBrYJRrT@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:51 daniel [~daniel@p5082B075.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:03 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@63-255-108-233.ip.mcleodusa.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 07:15:28 -!- xl [~xl@120.83.209.226] has left #lisp 07:15:42 Jasko [~tjasko@63-255-108-233.ip.mcleodusa.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:38 What's the most popular non-lisp books lispers read? 07:16:59 Alice in wonderland? 07:17:06 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082BFD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:17:21 the film? 07:17:29 the book, doh 07:17:30 _Of Grammatology_ 07:19:44 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:22:19 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:22:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:22:19 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:22:21 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@63-255-108-233.ip.mcleodusa.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:23:38 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:08 Jasko [~tjasko@63-255-108-233.ip.mcleodusa.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:53 folks, amazon.cn provides really really cheap books. In the range of £2~3. 07:31:39 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:36:54 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:37:12 a lot of java/javascript/python/ruby there, I only put Erlang Programming on my wish list. 07:37:55 eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 07:40:56 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.184.8] has joined #lisp 07:48:38 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 07:50:22 aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:00:51 jna [u473@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qanmzjepvufuthjx] has joined #lisp 08:00:51 -!- jna [u473@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qanmzjepvufuthjx] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:01:09 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.184.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:03:14 Neurotron [~Neurotron@124.155.195.6] has joined #lisp 08:04:08 Is there such a thing as CL for embedded systems? 08:04:12 araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has joined #lisp 08:04:18 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has quit [Changing host] 08:04:19 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:04:34 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-92-3-79.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:05:01 chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-92-3-79.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:06:23 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-60-17.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:07:11 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-12-12.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:07:17 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:07:30 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-167-9.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:08:12 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoy@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has left #lisp 08:08:17 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.97] has joined #lisp 08:15:35 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 08:15:35 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 08:15:35 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 08:17:27 minion: tell Neurotron about ECL. 08:17:28 Neurotron: please look at ECL: Embeddable Common Lisp, a member of the KCL Family, is a Common Lisp implementation initially developed by Giuseppe Attardi and currently maintained by Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll. http://www.cliki.net/ECL 08:18:03 beach: I heard once that ECL was quite unreliable, is that true? 08:18:22 Neurotron: I have no idea. 08:18:34 beach: I'll check it out anyway, thanks. 08:20:28 By the way, why does (assoc-if #'evenp '((a . 1) (b . 2) (c . 3)) :key #'second) keep telling me that "A IS NOT A LIST"? 08:21:13 *In association lists. 08:21:37 Neurotron: The key function is applied to the indicator, in this case a, so since a is not a list, second cannot be applied to it. 08:22:03 er, it is not called an indicator on an association list, maybe "key"? 08:22:37 So how do I go about returning the pairs which satisfy #'evenp? 08:22:56 clhs rassoc 08:22:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rassoc.htm 08:23:10 Neurotron: Or use find instead. 08:23:18 Thanks! 08:23:27 find-if rather 08:24:30 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:25:35 -!- hohum_ is now known as hohum 08:29:52 cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 08:35:14 -!- konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:39:41 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432918.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:39:44 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432918.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:42:01 mishoo [~mishoo@host133-108-dynamic.54-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:44:38 hi 08:44:50 hello mishoo 08:45:45 folks, how "official" is this git repo for sbcl? - git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl.git 08:46:23 just compiled 1.0.44.36 and I get an error when compiling cl-store that I didn't have before 08:46:46 Xach, there? 08:47:45 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:50:19 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:52:26 mishoo: pretty official 08:53:14 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:53:16 I thought so, as I found it on planet.sbcl.org :) 08:53:18 but still, am I the only one having trouble with cl-store? 08:53:33 what trouble? 08:53:48 I get this when compiling it: 08:53:49 The value 08:53:49 ((#.SB-EXT:SINGLE-FLOAT-POSITIVE-INFINITY . 0) 08:53:49 (#.SB-EXT:SINGLE-FLOAT-NEGATIVE-INFINITY . 1) 08:53:49 (# . 2)) 08:53:49 is not of type 08:53:51 NULL. 08:53:53 [Condition of type TYPE-ERROR] 08:53:57 in 0: (CL-STORE::SETUP-SPECIAL-FLOATS) 08:53:57 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 08:53:57 don't paste here 08:54:04 ugh, sorry 08:54:25 I have no idea how to debug it 08:54:49 Given a vector representing a large block of memory, I want to store a struct or class inside that vector at fixed locations. How should I do this? 08:54:50 and I can't tell for sure when it was entered, but previously I ran 1.0.44 and it was fine 08:54:56 yes, you're the only one 08:54:56 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-205-172.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:03 nice :) 08:55:50 tic: Why do you want to do that? 08:55:56 the C equivalent would be: uint8 data[SIZE]; memcpy(data+offset, thestruct, sizeof(thestruct)); thestruct=data+offset; 08:56:46 Which would produce something not usable as a struct. 08:56:52 Again, why do you want to do this? 08:57:16 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 08:57:47 mishoo: where do you get your cl-store? 08:58:03 stassats: quicklisp 08:58:14 context is allocator. the large block of memory is RAM, both used and free. offset into the block is a free memory block. by storing internal data structures in the free memory block, I save overhead. 08:58:19 mine is from cvs 08:58:32 I'll try that 08:58:33 vcs 08:58:38 tic: Except that in your C example, you can't use that struct you copied in without first copying it out. 08:58:38 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:58:58 Zhivago, I can too, check the last line: thestruct=data+offset. 08:59:18 tic: What makes you think the location you copied it to satisfies the alignment constraints of the struct? 08:59:19 Zhivago, i.e. I point thestruct to data+offset. 08:59:35 Zhivago, that's taken care of already. 08:59:38 tic: Yeah, and what happens when you dereference a misaligned pointer? 09:00:27 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:40 just assume alignment is taken care of, okay? I don't want to overcomplicate things here - I just want to know how to perform the same thing in Lisp (i.e. use a specified memory location for storing data), or if I'm looking at it the wrong way. Regardless, I want to achieve what my C code said. 09:01:25 tic: Your C code doesn't work, and you're looking at this the wrong way. But if you really want to do this, you'll have to look into metaclass support. 09:01:42 tic: Why do you want this allocator? 09:01:48 Zhivago, thesis. 09:02:09 Zhivago, why am I looking at it the wrong way? 09:02:59 -!- gapeme [mao@lost.my.eye.rs] has left #lisp 09:03:13 tic: Why do you want this allocator? 09:04:44 Zhivago, the answer depends on what level you want it. The end need is low-memory devices with small allocation blocks. 09:04:56 ...leading to fragmentation. 09:05:02 tic: Then you have two choices. 09:05:11 jconrad [~jconrad@host109-152-181-50.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:12 stassats: weird, the version from darcs works just fine 09:05:24 Either abandon system-level objects and switch to using integers or whatever as identities. 09:05:37 Or alter the system to allocate things as you wish. 09:05:46 although the last change was in May, and I guess the one in quicklisp can't be so outdated.. maybe there's a different issue 09:05:52 will report it on quicklisp 09:05:54 But why do you expect fragmentation? 09:06:32 Zhivago, I don't /expect/ fragmentation, I have data to support fragmentation - it's a web browser. 09:06:58 Zhivago, I have read the paper "allocator fragmentation not an issue", but I don't share their opinions in the very use case I'm looking at. 09:06:59 So, why aren't you using a copy-compact GC? 09:07:58 Zhivago, 'cause I'm going to use it in the C world, but I prefer sketching out ideas in a higher-level language. the interface is: handle_t alloc(size_t); void *lock(handle_t); void unlock(handle_t); free(handle_t); 09:08:13 Zhivago, but yeah, it's the first parts of a copy-compact GC. 09:08:26 So, why do you want to write it in lisp? 09:08:38 "but I prefer sketching out ideas in a higher-level language" 09:09:45 That interface isn't compatible with a copy-compact GC. 09:10:03 I haven't said it shoudl be. 09:10:15 Well, if you want to operate on an array of words, by all means do so. 09:10:55 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:11:25 Hmm.. Yeah. Since I'm only emulating RAM, I might as well store the structures outside the byte-array but pretend I store them inside. 09:11:30 Okay, thanks! 09:12:07 (I assume you try to prevent me from shooting myself in the foot or reinventing a square wheel. Thanks for the concern. :)) 09:14:02 Well, I guess you could use vector backed structs and displaced arrays ... 09:14:15 something like that yeah 09:14:25 See defstruct's :type option. 09:18:43 nostoi [~nostoi@55.Red-79-148-56.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:00 My book list goes like this: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/BsPyhghRYbmvmY56AxdY 09:25:35 Any comments on them? 09:26:20 -!- easyE [2pxBrYJRrT@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:07 leo2007: What is the list for? 09:32:31 the order I placed on amazon. books I want to read. 09:32:41 aha 09:33:04 dunno if I'd buy #2 there. 09:34:22 schmrkc: I want to use it to pick up C. I only learnt a long time ago at university and I hated it. 09:35:17 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 09:35:22 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 09:35:33 leo2007, I'd get a more tutorial-ish book. 09:36:52 I heard that books is really classic so it is good to have it. 09:39:12 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 09:48:10 -!- SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:49:11 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:50:18 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:50:36 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@55.Red-79-148-56.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:52:29 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:43 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.108.55] has joined #lisp 09:57:20 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-152-181-50.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:57:26 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-145-188-81.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:52 H4ns`` [~user@p579F8EAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:01 reb654 [~reb654@host86-142-150-175.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:11 -!- H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E99B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:07:18 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:07:34 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:08:08 -!- reb654 [~reb654@host86-142-150-175.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:11:01 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:11:23 Anyone here knows how to get a Lisp IDE out of MacVIM? 10:14:00 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:15:02 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 10:15:27 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has joined #lisp 10:15:57 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:53 Neurotron: Install Emacs is the standard answer 10:17:24 V-ille1 [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:17:29 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:17:46 But I like Vim. 10:18:18 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:18:26 Neurotron: We give you permission to like Emacs as well. 10:18:27 That's fine, use Vim for everything else 10:18:37 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:18:42 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:43 even in Emacs 10:19:55 Neurotron: Many people with a strong vim background learned Emacs because of Slime (its Common Lisp mode), some people first struggled along using vim for Lisp, too, but many of those eventually turned to Emacs (or at least acknowledge that it's the better option) 10:20:09 vim only does a small subset of emacs. 10:20:25 Neurotron, possibly Limp. 10:20:40 Neurotron, haven't tried it personally. 10:20:52 Neurotron: My personal message is that Emacs and Common Lisp share a huge cultural heritage. Learning one will make you appreciate the other more. 10:23:30 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:24:29 leo2007: It is a classic book. I don't find it terribly useful. 10:24:48 leo2007: Get a nice ML book (: 10:24:53 schmrkc: I need something terribly useful. 10:25:29 schmrkc: can haskell replace ML? I got Real World Haskell. 10:25:42 leo2007: Sure if you are interested in haskell :) 10:25:53 functional programming. 10:26:12 sure sounds a good choice. Can't stand haskell meself for various reasons but ya :) 10:27:22 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.108.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:28:23 schmrkc: Any good book (I mean really good one) on learning C? 10:29:05 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:29:52 leo2007: Hmmm.. no idea there really. C is not so very complex so .. well I guess K&R covers it all. 10:30:55 excellent. I need to know a little bit of C so I won't feel completely lost. 10:31:42 -!- SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:32:09 -!- V-ille1 [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:32:16 Hmm. ok. Just some random tutorial on the internet should cove it all I guess. You need to know like ( ) { } ; & and * 10:32:21 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:32:27 and I guess some keywords 10:32:27 heh. 10:32:31 I'd ask ##c :) 10:32:45 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: reboot] 10:32:56 only C book I've ever owned is the K&R one but I can't really say I recommend it (: 10:33:07 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has joined #lisp 10:33:58 schmrkc: I think pointer is what I really want to grasp because that's where I don't follow (when reading code) most of the time. 10:35:26 leo2007: Right. I hear that is a common issue. I don't think K&R explains it very well. But I haven't even looked at the book for 20 years :) 10:36:49 Back. 10:37:07 tcr, tic, beach: Yeah, maybe I'll tryout Emacs. 10:38:23 schmrkc: I asked on ##c and they said k&r is the best on pointer. 10:38:31 leo2007: Cool. Then go with it. 10:38:36 leo2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxvv9krECNw 10:38:52 -!- SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:38:58 leo2007: I can't really quite relate to the pointer issue. For some reason people have a hard time with it. :S 10:40:57 pr: many thanks. 10:41:07 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 10:43:01 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.252.233] has joined #lisp 10:43:06 taus [~taus@1503023312.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:45:09 e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:38 pr: there are so many nice videos these days ;) 10:49:26 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-47.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:50:14 jeti [~user@p54B462F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:39 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-47.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 10:54:23 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@pcp067126pcs.wireless.calpoly.edu] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 10:56:55 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:56:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-82.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:59:14 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:21 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:34 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-153-53-177.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:01:30 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-145-188-81.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:01:30 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 11:01:37 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-154-32.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:02:01 Bronsa [~bronsa@host56-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:02:09 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-174-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:49 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 11:06:29 -!- Neurotron [~Neurotron@124.155.195.6] has quit [Quit: Neurotron] 11:08:54 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:10:20 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:22 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:13:06 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-167-9.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:15:55 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:15:56 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-167-9.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:16:44 interesting, debian full-upgrade just suggested clisp to be installed.. 11:16:47 sabalabas [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 11:17:18 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755938.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:19 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21:05 -!- _ism [~frinnn@i59F62B60.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:21:20 _ism [~frinnn@i59F61114.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:25:12 kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:37:44 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-174-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:39:17 francogrex [~user@109.130.86.8] has joined #lisp 11:41:39 A strange phenomenon: I ran the ansi-tests with ECL-10.4.1, on windows it works fine however same version on linux just freezes at EVAL-AND-COMPILE-MACROS! cmucl and sbcl run the tests on linux without problems though... 11:45:30 churib [~tg@dslc-082-082-119-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:30 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-174-190.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:56:57 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-133-248-102.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:11 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:02:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@63-255-108-233.ip.mcleodusa.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 12:02:28 -!- jeti [~user@p54B462F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:03:38 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:03:54 Jasko [~tjasko@63-255-108-233.ip.mcleodusa.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:07 jeti [~user@p54B462F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:26 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.86.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05:44 -!- e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:13:08 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:14:50 beaumonta [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 12:14:56 -!- abeaumont is now known as abeaumont_ 12:15:29 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 12:23:12 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:23:18 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:23:53 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:25:51 tic: hello 12:30:04 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:10 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 12:33:37 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::22:9e03] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:34:00 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-17-245-93.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:35:51 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:39:24 is there a way to call elisp functions from slime ? I'd like to display images generated in Common Lisp in slime's emacs window 12:39:55 yes 12:40:12 the exact mechanism has been discussed on the slime mailing list a couple of times already 12:40:20 there's also a slightly-borken slime-media contrib 12:40:24 ok, I'm gonna search on the mailing list 12:40:29 thank you 12:40:31 which I will fix when I have a bit of time 12:40:35 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:41:36 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:01 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 12:42:22 nmg [~nick@dsl78-143-210-1.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:42:41 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.108.55] has joined #lisp 12:42:55 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:43:00 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 12:45:50 galdor: hey 12:45:57 galdor: can you point me to the message you found? 12:46:09 it relates to my visual programming project thing 12:46:34 I'm searching for it, I'll give you the link(s) :) 12:47:29 ok :) 12:47:34 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:47:34 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-101.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:47:39 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::23:e732] has joined #lisp 12:47:46 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:47:46 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 12:47:46 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 12:49:09 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-82.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:49:42 dto: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.slime.devel/7339/focus=7341 12:50:51 gonna be useful to generate maps :) 12:51:51 galdor: wanna see what i'm working on? 12:52:00 http://dto.github.com/notebook/iomacs.html 12:52:02 thanks for the link :) 12:52:21 dto: yep, I know your work 12:52:30 really impressive 12:52:33 oh ok :) 12:52:34 hey thanks 12:52:54 iomacs is the rename (possibly not the last) bringing my various elisp and cl game stuff under one project umbrella. 12:54:47 dto: does iomacs supersede xe2? 12:55:11 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 12:57:28 easyE [1L1dGN4YxC@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:40 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:57:44 kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 13:00:44 lhz: yes. it's a rename. 13:00:59 lhz: also there are api changes and many cleanups/improvements/additions 13:01:03 how are oyu ? 13:02:19 -!- kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:03:31 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has joined #lisp 13:04:13 dto: I'll respond on #lispgames.. need to figure out iomacs then :) 13:05:54 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:07:16 Krystof: I can't clone git://common-lisp.net/crhodes/swankr/swankr.git (fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly), is there another way to get slime-media ? 13:09:55 galdor: it's http://common-lisp.net/users/crhodes/swankr.git 13:10:29 fatal: http://common-lisp.net/users/crhodes/swankr.git/info/refs not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server? 13:10:33 can't clone it either 13:10:35 galdor: I meant git://common-lisp.net/users/crhodes/swankr.git 13:10:47 ah thank you 13:11:57 Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 13:13:41 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:32 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:51 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-189-59.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:17 Soulman1 [~knute@219.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:23 -!- oph3lia [~ophelia@c-76-99-56-10.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:19:22 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@219.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 13:20:57 Soulman1 [~knute@219.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:23 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:20 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:31 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 13:28:44 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:30:54 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 13:36:22 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-124-9.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:12 slime-media is in slime 13:41:29 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.108.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:43:42 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl12-86-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 13:45:07 fiveop [~fiveop@178.2.112.11] has joined #lisp 13:45:32 Torque [~evilbooge@74.40.36.166] has joined #lisp 13:45:38 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:46:35 dfox_ [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-182.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:51:23 konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has joined #lisp 13:51:28 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 13:52:08 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:52:50 e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:53:25 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.108.55] has joined #lisp 13:58:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-82.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:59:49 -!- jeti [~user@p54B462F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:06:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:10:31 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.65] has joined #lisp 14:12:40 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:15:29 scaphe [~soaexpert@201-27-100-98.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:16:37 I started read the Lad of Lisp book :-) Very funny !! 14:17:49 scaphe: Congrats. 14:18:34 u writed the book ? 14:18:43 scaphe: No. 14:18:58 scaphe: My writings are very not lisp-related. (: 14:19:17 Lisp Lad and Functional Man? 14:19:20 the brazilian community liked so much of this publication 14:19:28 Argh.. I'm considering switching to Lisp full-time. 14:19:42 Cross-platform build systems suck :-( 14:20:24 i dont believe that we can solve all problems with one language... 14:20:45 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-182.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:21:00 for web-frontend, i believe that ruby is very strong, and frameworks like Rails3 very productive... 14:21:17 -!- emma is now known as em 14:21:32 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:23:06 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:24:07 upwardindex1 [~Adium@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:24:16 Scala and your framework - Akka with Actors Model (Erlang) for concurrency for back-end systems... 14:24:38 Lisp for Business Rules abstractions, write DSL´s.... 14:26:54 enupten [~neptune@117.254.151.25] has joined #lisp 14:29:29 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Quit:] 14:30:06 sts193 [~sts193@c-76-104-226-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:11 Guys, this sounds like what a newbie would say, and i probably am classed as one, but as i've said before i've been wanting to learn lisp because i've heard that once you learn it you have knowledge that can help with programming in general, you see my end goal is to use javascript mainly, probably mostly canvas/webgl but im wanting to do that now, but i cant because im learning lisp, so im really unsure whether i should carry on learnin 14:30:35 craiggles: If you want to do js then do js. 14:31:20 Why is (read-line) automatically returning nil instead of waiting for input? 14:31:34 sts193: Is it? 14:31:45 Well, only in slime actualy. 14:31:45 sts193: In what context? 14:31:50 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@63-255-108-233.ip.mcleodusa.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:32:04 *schmrkc* supposes something sends something to read-line then. 14:32:48 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 14:32:55 How can I figure out what is being sent? 14:33:05 *schmrkc* has no idea there. 14:33:07 read-line will return NIL only in case it's EOF and if eof-error-p is t and eof-value is NIL 14:34:18 francogrex [c61c4505@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.28.69.5] has joined #lisp 14:36:31 stassats: How can I check whether or not eof-error-p is true? 14:36:53 craggles: Javascript is reasonably similar with lisp without macros. 14:36:55 sts193: how did you call read-line? 14:37:06 sts193: if the call looked like (read-line), there is no way it can return nil. 14:37:23 Xach: Yes, (read-line) is all I called) 14:38:10 If it matters, I'm using CLISP with emacs 23 on os x. 14:38:48 sts193: I am having a super-hard time believing it returned nil. can you paste a transcript? 14:39:07 Xach: Here is what it is doing. http://paste.lisp.org/display/117347 14:39:30 That is not returning nil! 14:39:37 not as its primary value, anyway. 14:39:48 I thought the second item was the return value? 14:39:58 sts193: they're both return values. 14:40:15 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-197-147.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:56 ASau [~user@95-27-197-147.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:41:46 I didn't know it was possible to have two return values. What might be causing this? 14:42:04 (The automatic return, not the fact that there are two return values) 14:42:08 sts193: You can have a whole bunch of return values :) 14:42:37 schmrkc: Even if they are not in the form of a list? 14:42:58 sts193: I dunno about your READ-LINE in slime though. It's not doing that for me. linux/sbcl. 14:43:06 sts193: (defun foo () (values 1 2 3 4 5 6)) 14:43:24 sts193: and FOO returs 6 return values. 14:43:39 beach: I suppose it's probably not the best marketing strategy, but it was directly prompted by the statement "I'm happy to break other readtable-case using code", plus the suggestion I should submit patches right when I'm trying to reduce the amount of code potentially misleaing people into writing code requiring patching in the first place 14:44:17 beach: changing the behaviour of COUNT-IF based on rather obscure information you don't specify explicitly is icky 14:44:32 mathrick: no, only modern. 14:44:36 schmrkc: I will try switching to sbcl and seeing what happens. 14:44:41 not to mention I don't even understand why going from start to end would be better in the presence of side-effects 14:44:47 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:45:00 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:35 oh wait, side-effect-free 14:45:38 I can't read 14:45:54 carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.133] has joined #lisp 14:47:04 pkhuong: and why's that? CL allows for :downcase, and if somebody runs an environment in which |defun| does the right thing, I don't see any reason to break it 14:47:26 they've done their homework already if their |defun| works 14:47:35 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:48:04 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 14:48:04 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 14:48:05 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 14:48:28 -!- francogrex [c61c4505@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.28.69.5] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:49:01 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host56-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:50:02 mathrick: I :use CL. CL:|defun| can't work in Common Lisp. If you're using another language, then all bets are off. 14:50:56 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 14:51:15 pkhuong: and where in the spec does it say "valid CL code is that compiled with :UPCASE"? 14:51:42 your assumption that it's |CL|:|DEFUN| is exactly the problem 14:52:36 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::23:e732] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:52:46 <_3b> mathrick: isn't that required by the spec? 14:52:56 not that I'm aware of 14:53:03 This again? 14:53:37 -!- benny [~benny@i577A343D.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:54:05 _3b: all that I know is the spec says :UPCASE is the _default_ value. Which also implies it can be changed 14:54:14 mathrick: oh, so you're opposed to my typing (defun ...), not to the upcased string designators. 14:54:30 pkhuong: howso? 14:54:44 if you type (defun ...), it works just fine with modern mode 14:55:00 <_3b> mathrick: reader settings don't have anything to do with what the symbols are named 14:55:19 mathrick: So do you see what the issue is with from-end etc? 14:55:25 mathrick: but you're arguing about DEFUN here. 14:55:27 what is this "modern mode" good for, and why is it necessary to cater to it? 14:56:02 beach: yeah. If you can _prove_ it's idempotent, then it's indistinguishable externally, so I don't see any problem doing that 14:56:09 it seems like a valid optimisation 14:56:31 cmm: it's basically running CL with :preserve readtable-case 14:57:04 mathrick: I know what it _is_, the question was what is it good for and why is it worth catering to? 14:57:25 which happens to be the mode which takes most, but not all, bugs related to people assuming :UPCASE 14:57:28 with so much teh drama, to boot 14:57:55 and there are good reasons to have code that doesn't break depending on the readtable-case, such as the fact it lets people use :INVERT 14:57:58 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.151.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:58:08 Is there a function to check if something appears exactly once in a sequence? 14:58:11 mathrick: AND MY CODE DOES. 14:58:20 no, sorry, I still don't get it. 14:58:24 *_3b* still thinks all this should be handled by the editor instead of making the language deal with it :p 14:58:31 cmm: I have heard that it is used by default by Allegro CL. 14:59:16 drdo: (= 1 (count )) 14:59:26 beach: not exactly. there are two executables, "alisp" and "mlisp". I don't recall there being a default "lisp" pointing to one or the other, but I may misremember 14:59:31 pkhuong: BUT MOST EVERYBODY DOESN'T HAVE THE FINE GRASP OF THE DETAILS OF CLHS, WHICH LEADS TO COUNTLESS BUGS YOU THEN INVITE ME TO SEND PATCHES TO. So I'm asking you to reconsider publishing high-profile code which refers to symbols with strings, when it's not necessary 15:00:16 oh wow 15:00:21 Please do not shout, you horrible shouty man. 15:00:48 cmm: which is a very good mode, because 1) it preserves the internally UPPERCASE symbol names 2) yet makes them print downcased, reducing the yelling in compiler output 3) preserves CamelCase identifiers, making it quite easy to interface with things like Java without |ugly| 15:01:09 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:01:18 beach: That's not optimal, it could stop as soon as more than one show up 15:01:25 tgg [~tgg@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-53.bu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:02:09 well, it seems fair to say that most lisp users (at least here) don't care about uppercase REPL output or interfacing with Java 15:02:24 drdo: there's no reason not to do it if you have a compiler macro for COUNT-IF 15:02:29 benny [~benny@i577A3EA7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:29 mathrick: are you talking about that fine :invert case? 15:02:34 yes 15:03:05 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:18 drdo: I don't understand your objection. Are you now adding more requirements after the fact? 15:03:23 see, some time around 6 minutes ago, you switched topics from modern to invert. 15:03:56 the perils of publishing high-profile code! 15:04:15 -!- tgg [~tgg@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-53.bu.edu] has left #lisp 15:04:58 I would have expected complaints about useless package qualifiers (which I just fixed) 15:05:20 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.84.198.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:05:35 pkhuong: my topic was always the same, please avoid producing code which suggests to people it's okay to refer to symbols with strings, because that's exactly what made it impossible to use :INVERT in practice, because people don't think of the consequences of strings-as-symbols and code breaks 15:05:43 drdo: Or another way of putting it: Are you saying that somehow (= 1 (count )) does not "check if something appears exactly once in a sequence"? 15:05:49 -!- konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:06:11 No, i'm saying that it is not optimally efficient 15:06:23 mathrick: but it's okay to refer to symbols with strings, why on earth wouldn't it be? 15:06:58 cmm: if you really know what you're doing and make sure you make your strings behave when subjected to different readtable-cases, then yes 15:07:00 drdo: write your own with (map nil ...). 15:07:14 pkhuong: Yes, i was just asking if it already existed... 15:07:54 cmm: but in practice, the countless bugs you encounter if you dare to use :INVERT show that people don't know what they're doing and the ACTUAL code referring to symbols with strings is not correct and breaks 15:08:04 mathrick: but why bother with mangling source code in order to make it read with perverse readtables? 15:08:25 read code with the standard readtable, problem solved 15:08:29 mathrick: I'd argue that the problem here is with creating symbols programmatically. 15:09:32 pkhuong: yes, that's what it boils to in the end. But I think you'd agree that reality is not perfectly rational and what _should_ matter is not necessarily what actually matters. Hence the attempt to avoid giving (potentially) bad examples 15:09:59 kinda the same reason they put "don't try this at home" disclaimers on stunt shows 15:10:08 so far the only one complaining is you, in case you haven't noticed 15:11:13 cmm: so? I know I'm not the only one using or attempting to use :INVERT. I just happen to be in #lisp 15:11:27 why don't just discourage anyone writing in CL, because they can upset some old-timers? 15:11:39 I'm an old-timer? 15:11:41 that's news 15:12:21 i don't about that, but you're upset, that i can see 15:12:49 cmm: and there's no mangling going on, #:foo obviously refers to a symbol whereas "FOO" might or might not. So at least in my opinion, #:foo is better anyway 15:12:55 mathrick: and I know that trying to read code with :INVERT is stupid and may hurt. so don't do that 15:13:01 mathrick: Please create a symbol named by the concatenation of some-package:foo and some-other-package::Bar correctly. 15:13:24 cmm: it might hurt only because people assume :UPCASE 15:13:45 pkhuong: I don't understand 15:13:52 mathrick: it is a valid assumption 15:14:40 no, it's not. CLHS provides means for changing the readtable-case 15:14:54 hey, what about *read-base*? 15:15:01 mathrick: the problem really is with programmatically generating symbols. 15:15:02 mathrick: I don't see how it hurts. It's up to the client to match libraries contract. If the library generates symbols in upper-case, in your :invert client, you will have to write the right symbol whatever its case. 15:15:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:15:08 let's write all numbers with terminal dots! 15:15:17 pkhuong: yes, I know. I just didn't understand the task 15:15:31 I don't think CLHS recommends diddling with the readtable you use to read code in 15:15:43 or, how about *read-default-float-format*? who'll fight for it? 15:16:14 mathrick: you want to use symbols instead of strings, so, while I'd usually ask how to create a symbol named by the concatenation of "FOO" and "BAR", that doesn't make sense for you. 15:16:27 stassats: æh, :INVERT at gives some desirable effects. Which is hard to argue for different *read-base* 15:16:34 By the way, (cl:defstruct |MyStruct| a |b| |Cc|) ! 15:17:06 Well, there's always (intern (concatenate 'string (symbol-name #:foo) (symbol-name #:bar))) :) 15:17:07 So let's add another layer of unknown indirection and work with symbols. 15:17:11 Once upon a time, programmers wrote code in octal... 15:17:24 Zhivago: which doesn't work with :invert, when only one of the inputs is mixed-case. 15:17:31 pkhuong: easy then. (format "~A~A" (string 'some-package:foo) (string 'some-other::Bar)) 15:17:41 mathrick: you don't know what my desires can be 15:17:48 stassats: no, I don't 15:17:54 but I'm making mine known 15:18:23 and why should anyone care about your pet peeves? 15:18:33 nefo_ [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 15:18:34 because it doesn't make the code any harder 15:18:37 what'd hard about (with-standard-io-syntax (load "third-party-code.lisp")), anyway? 15:18:40 -!- nefo_ [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:18:40 mathrick: which gives "FOOBar" instead of "fooBar". 15:18:58 pkhuong: you didn't specify what the desired effect was 15:19:08 which is why I asked for clarifications 15:19:29 mathrick: so is explicitly typing 1s0 or 24. 15:19:33 I say the desired effect is what is coded in the library. Just deal with it! 15:19:47 Case changes included. 15:19:55 mathrick: oh, ok. Then why are you complaining about CFFI? 15:19:59 You're all insane. 15:20:09 We know. 15:20:10 Clearly you just misunderstood what the desired effect is. 15:20:11 the world is crazy! 15:20:22 pjb: :D 15:20:35 stassats: no. Your change is uibiquitous, whereas mine is only a change to the localised task of referring to symbols by their names 15:20:46 rfg [~rfg@host81-102-105-24.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:51 My theory is that the last sane Earthling left this planet two or three glaciations ago... 15:21:06 pkhuong: is the desired effect "code doesn't compile with :INVERT"? 15:21:46 pkhuong: if you want a symbol named |fooBar|, then you're leaving :UPCASE anyway 15:21:49 urandom__ [~user@p548A31D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:01 so I wouldn't say it's a valid counterexample to whatever I said 15:22:28 mathrick: no, I want to be able to type foo, Bar, and fooBar, and have it work regardless of the readtable-case, since you insist that code should work that way. 15:24:16 powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-3-95.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:17 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 15:25:47 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:25:52 pkhuong: that is not possible, and not what :INVERT gives. :INVERT just makes it possible to follow the (universally-accepted, as far as I'm aware) modern convention of spelling code using downcase, and have the compiler use the same convention, while keeping the internally UPPERCASE symbol names 15:26:14 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:26:32 dfkjjkfd_ [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 15:26:33 -!- scaphe [~soaexpert@201-27-100-98.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: scaphe] 15:27:09 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:30 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:27:47 tgg [~tgg@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-53.bu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:27:56 mathrick: so, again, your beef is with programmatic generation of symbol name. Now go and fight that, since you just agreed that writing :invert-safe code is otherwise impossible. 15:29:10 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432918.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:29:44 konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has joined #lisp 15:32:17 -!- tgg [~tgg@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-53.bu.edu] has left #lisp 15:32:45 -!- rfg [~rfg@host81-102-105-24.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:34:03 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 15:34:22 Bronsa [~bronsa@host245-186-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:36:14 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-189-59.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 15:37:46 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host86-148-89-45.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:13 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-189-59.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:43 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-53-177.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:38:43 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 15:39:41 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:41:41 Yuuhi [~user@p5483A067.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:35 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-148-89-45.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:46:54 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has joined #lisp 15:47:23 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:47:36 scaphe [~soaexpert@201-27-100-98.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:48:20 Nshag [~shag@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:04 -!- scaphe [~soaexpert@201-27-100-98.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 15:50:52 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:51:04 -!- sts193 [~sts193@c-76-104-226-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:51:41 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:21 jconrad [~jconrad@host109-152-181-95.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:57 sts193 [~sts193@c-76-104-226-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:00 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:29 Alright, so after getting sbcl working, I've determined that the (read-line) issue is only with clisp in slime. Any ideas of where to go from here? 15:56:30 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-152-181-95.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:56:30 sts193: first check what *STANDARD-INPUT* is 15:56:37 I'm using Quicklisp, and (quicklisp-quickstart:install) works fine. However, loading the quicklisp/setup.lisp file gives me compile errors: "SB-POSIX does not designated any package" (SBCL/Ubuntu). Any ideas?? 15:56:39 -!- sts193 is now known as sam191 15:56:49 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:56:57 sam191: and then work out how its value leads to the behaviour you see 15:57:14 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host245-186-dynamic.1-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:58:35 necroforest: Did you install sbcl from ubuntu's repo? 15:58:39 mathrick: *standard-input* gives me # 15:58:47 schmrkc, yes 15:58:52 schmrkc, should i install it manually? 15:59:00 necroforest: Then you're pretty fucked until you remove that and install it manually. 15:59:07 got it 15:59:13 sam191: i can't reproduce 15:59:42 stassats: Are you using clisp? 16:00:06 jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-56-175.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:07 naturally 16:00:34 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:00:55 Here is what I get with sbcl (in slime) # 16:01:14 hey, you are running your code from *inferior-lisp*, don't you? 16:01:27 stassats: Yes. 16:01:38 then stop doing this 16:01:51 What should I do instead? 16:01:59 use slime-repl 16:02:25 In emacs I do: M-x slime 16:02:32 is this not the slime repl? 16:02:37 no 16:03:00 How should I do it instead? 16:03:18 you should slime-repl contrib 16:03:23 or better slime-fancy 16:03:40 do I type this into the minibuffer? 16:03:44 should load 16:04:01 no 16:04:36 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Loading-Contribs.html 16:04:48 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:05:30 wow, is this how everyone uses slime? 16:05:41 how? 16:05:48 slime-fancy 16:05:58 i can't speak for everyone 16:06:16 I've been in *inferior-lisp* all this time. 16:06:48 fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:07:06 and i'm sick to death telling people about slime-repl/slime-fancy 16:07:32 and i can't do nothing about it 16:07:46 short of forking slime 16:08:00 Well thanks for the info. 16:08:58 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:54 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 16:10:55 stassats: I always thought the point of slime was the repl, but I'm clearly in the minority. 16:11:18 rtoym: you are not 16:11:41 I'm not? 16:11:56 scaphe [~soaexpert@201-27-100-98.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:12:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-7-202.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 16:12:06 rtoym: yes, you're the majority 16:12:20 but helmut doesn't think the same way 16:12:37 stassats: Oh. Then what is the main point of slime anymore? 16:13:05 Does anyone use slime without a repl? And how does that work? 16:13:34 no, nobody i talk to wants to use slime without a slime-repl 16:14:33 Then why the separation? 16:14:46 stassats: Thanks a lot! I was confused because this was the default setup on Ubuntu when loading slime, but on os x typing in slime gave me *inferior-lisp* mode. 16:14:49 rtoym: if only i knew 16:15:24 that contrib refactoring in slime was pretty much only to please Helmut... it's merely an optional loading of some definitions; it's far from a plugin architecture... he want's slime to be small and simple to maintain, sacrificing slime's usability in the name of this (well, usability as judged by everybody else) 16:15:31 stassats: your inotify interface looks good. thanks! 16:15:39 stassats: Ok. 16:16:26 Fade: great, that reminds me that i should really take care of some patch to it sent to me about a month ago 16:16:37 *rtoym* wonders how to go about debugging a *maximum-error-depth* exceeded bug when compiling.... 16:16:47 for reading several events at once 16:19:38 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066012.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:19:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:20:14 and what is a very bad thing in the contrib stuff is that nothing is loaded by default. I regularly meet newbies who use a barebone slime for months and they cheer up when I tell them to load slime-fancy and to use fuzzy completion... it should be the default and experienced users should chose not to load stuff... it's just plain silly to start every discussion by suggesting newcomers how to load slime. then why isn't that th 16:20:26 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:41 attila_lendvai: that's what prompted this discussion 16:20:56 *attila_lendvai* goes to the logs 16:22:35 Caffeine [~satanama@cable-10-150-102.b2b2c.ca] has joined #lisp 16:24:50 -!- churib [~tg@dslc-082-082-119-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:26:18 stassats: are you using inotify in anything? 16:26:49 yes 16:26:56 i'm also annoyed by the fact i kept using slime as-is for years just to learn there's slime contributed packages that should definitely be activated by default 16:26:59 I'm asking here because there are some people trying to optimize his sleep. is there any scientific sleeping schedule/guide for coders? 16:27:19 attila_lendvai: I agree with that. 16:27:24 "sleep a lot" works for me 16:27:33 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:27:35 I already spoken up long ago and many times on slime-devel. my last commit that optionally integrates swank with asdf only earned my a removal of my commit bit... noone backs up any of my reasonings, so I kinda gave up on slime and slime users and maintain my own fork. it's wasted effort, but fighting Helmut's conservativity alone is even more waste of efforts... 16:28:11 stassats: check this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep 16:28:25 sid3k: This might be of interest: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3932344/40-Sleep-Hacks-The-Geeks-Guide-to-Optimizing-Sleep 16:28:35 googi [~googi@89.169.27.226] has joined #lisp 16:28:51 churib [~tg@dslc-082-082-119-140.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:56 attila_lendvai: how often to you rebase in order to to merge back fixes and new feature from upstream slime? 16:29:22 I've tried polyphasic sleep before, specifically biphasic sleep, one period of 3 hours and another of 90 min 16:29:33 I even have a draft mail in response to the proud removal of asdf integration... but I've quickly realized it's a waste of time, so I just left it half written... 16:29:43 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:29:50 -!- scaphe [~soaexpert@201-27-100-98.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:29:53 e-user: once a month at least, but usually more often 16:30:09 It does work pretty well, the main issue is that sleeping for 90min in the middle of the day is not socially acceptable and has quite a few logistic problems 16:30:14 I had to switch to git from darcs, because darcs still doesn't have mass-amend 16:30:28 drdo: It is not socially accepted? wat? 16:30:42 attila_lendvai: where can i find it? 16:30:55 just hu.dwim.slime? 16:31:02 e-user: http://dwim.hu/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=slime;a=summary you can see our patches on the top 16:31:14 schmrkc: Try telling your boss or co-workers you're going to sleep for 90min in the middle of the workday and see how it goes 16:31:25 drdo: I have never had any problem with that whatsoever. 16:31:37 drdo: Not that I actually *do* sleep in that fashion anymore. 16:31:58 Not to mention you need a place to sleep in 16:32:09 hu.dwim.slime is the old darcs repo, it's obsolete now (although it still has some extra inspector features waiting to be backported, but I try to minimize the distance between my fork and the official to keep my life as simple as possible) 16:32:21 You can't really just crash at the office 16:32:24 drdo: It went something like this with the boss "oh ok. Well no worries. Just work extra at the end" 16:32:29 drdo: Weird. It has worked fine for me. 16:32:35 schmrkc: Where did you sleep? 16:32:37 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:33:01 drdo: I slept in a couch in a lil cafeteria actually. 16:33:04 -!- sam191 [~sts193@c-76-104-226-126.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:33:08 drdo: Quite a few companies actually supply sleeping rooms. 16:33:16 why not give it a new fancy name and advertise it? 16:33:18 schmrkc: I did sleep like this for a while when i was living near my univ 16:33:19 drdo: Cars are excellent for sleeping to. 16:33:33 But now i live a 1hour train ride away 16:33:50 And there really isn't any place i could realistically sleep in 16:33:51 Now I have found that 9 hrs over the night + a 45 minute nap is pretty ideal for me. 16:33:58 9 hours? Oo 16:34:13 I feel really bad when i sleep so much 16:34:21 Nawww :( 16:34:26 I go with 6-7.5 hours 16:34:29 at night 16:34:32 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.184.8] has joined #lisp 16:34:54 somtimes 3 or 4.5 when time is short 16:35:00 *schmrkc* needs his recovery. 16:35:05 *sometimes 16:35:19 schmrkc: I can't sleep for 9 hours a day, not without drugs anyway 16:35:21 rfg [~rfg@host81-102-106-221.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:28 I just wake up after around 6-7.5 depending on the day 16:35:51 attila_lendvai: why not give it a new fancy name and advertise it? 16:36:00 e-user: most of the lisp community was hostile, ot at least not happy for my forking 2-3 years ago when Helmut dramatically offered that it's either him or me... since then people start to wake up... 16:36:11 drdo: I'm sure I could get you hooked up with a good exercise program that would have you sleeping 9hrs no problem. 16:36:16 OK. So I installed SBCL manually. I try and load Quicklisp.lisp and I get this error: Not an absolute pathname #P"~/.clc/systems/" 16:36:16 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:31 sbcl doesn't expand relative pathnames. 16:36:38 attila_lendvai: in that case it sounds even more useful to create a more visible fork. 16:36:39 e-user: I have no idea how many people use our fork... but I doubt many 16:36:47 because it's too hidden 16:36:49 (load #P "/path/to/quicklisp.lisp") 16:36:52 make it prominent 16:37:00 afk telephone 16:37:07 (necroforest) 16:37:16 schmrkc: I've exercised my whole life, twice a day 6 days a week on some periods before competitions 16:37:27 e-user: how? I write a mail every one in a while to sime-devel... but if I speak to much there, I'll even be removed from the list... :) 16:37:30 drdo: So? 16:37:35 ah, that's the common lisp controller problem. 16:37:37 Fade, i did that.. same thing 16:38:06 The QL release notes say it's an issue with Debian packages, but I have removed all lisp-related packages (including cl-asdf) 16:38:07 chmod 0 the common-lisp-controller file that tries to manage asdf 16:38:10 schmrkc: Just saying it's not lack of exercise 16:38:11 -!- mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:38:22 *attila_lendvai* rebases his slime fork 16:38:24 drdo: I never claimed it was either. 16:38:45 -!- Yuuhi [~user@p5483A067.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:39:07 or just rm it 16:39:11 schmrkc: I wish someone would find a cure for sleep, or at least a big reduction :S 16:39:18 I can't remember which one it is, but it's in /etc/common-lisp/ 16:39:20 drdo: A cure? I like sleep. 16:39:34 schmrkc: You only like sleep because you get tired 16:39:34 drdo: methamphetamine seems to take a way a lot of the need. 16:39:47 schmrkc: I don't need treating symptoms 16:39:49 *mean 16:39:55 I need, a real cure 16:40:12 drdo: You would have to stop the constant war in your head between the sleep and non-sleep systems then. 16:40:15 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-56-175.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:40:22 Fade, rm -rf /etc/common-lisp worked 16:40:23 Something that allows the brain to do whatever the fuck it does while sleeping but in less time 16:40:32 drdo: A lot of research says sleep is pretty important though. 16:40:40 drdo: Why you need more time? You have plenty of time already. 16:40:48 schmrkc: Everyone knows empirically that it is important 16:40:52 that's a little extreme, but c-l-c isn't generally recommended, so yeah. 16:41:29 schmrkc: It's not about the time really, it's quite inconvinient to have to stop for large periods of time just because you have to sleep 16:41:39 Fade, it was left over from when i had the Ubuntu packages installed 16:41:40 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:49 drdo: Interesting. I don't find it inconvinient at all (: 16:41:53 i often solve some problems after a good sleep 16:41:55 You have to interrupt what you were doing to go lie around doing nothing for a few hours 16:42:00 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:42:23 *nod* 16:42:28 stassats: Yes, of course, what i would like is something that allows the process that goes on while we sleep to go on much faster 16:42:29 -!- SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:42:36 :( 16:42:37 drdo: But you're not doing nothing. You're sleeping. 16:42:49 schmrkc: I know, i want to sleep faster! :D 16:42:50 drdo: it's like steroids for your brain that sleep. 16:43:07 drdo: where are you hurrying? 16:43:35 -!- konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:43:35 drdo: If you're worried about doing nothing, then why on earth are we even having this discussion? sleep contributes more to you than this does ;) 16:44:05 schmrkc: Oh come on, do you enjoy having to stop what you are doing because you are tired and need to sleep? 16:44:21 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has joined #lisp 16:44:27 drdo: I can't really recall it ever having bothered me. 16:44:28 stassats: is there a lot of work to do, to integrate that patch? 16:44:44 The brain should get an incremental garbage collector already 16:44:45 Fade: i don't think so 16:44:54 test 16:45:11 if i were to sleep less, i still couldn't work more 16:45:15 cool. well, can you let me know when it goes in? 16:45:46 stassats: Why? 16:45:51 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A067.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:06 because my brain has a limited capacity for heavy-duty thinking 16:46:15 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:30 Sure, but you could use those extra hours to do something else 16:46:48 seems easier to just cut out random internet time ;) 16:46:50 like talk on #lisp 16:46:53 :P 16:47:38 drdo: Did you watch too much nightmare on elmstreet, is that the problem? 16:47:54 as interesting as sleep hacks are, it's seriously OT for #lisp. 16:47:55 Never watched that 16:47:56 sometimes you have to accept that things are the way they are and stop fighting them 16:47:56 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:48:20 stassats: That goes against everything that makes us humans 16:48:35 it does not 16:48:59 and don't fight the off-topic police 16:50:02 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:50:16 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:41 *attila_lendvai* pushed the slime fork rebase 16:51:04 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.146.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:52:14 I guess slime isone of those systems that I just use without much need to interract with the development... but I thought tcr was the slime maintainer. Heh. 16:52:37 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.218.66] has joined #lisp 16:53:00 -!- _ism [~frinnn@i59F61114.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:53:41 tcr used to be very active, but now he's busy with a startup... 16:53:44 -!- fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:53:54 but the final word comes from Helmut 16:55:45 afaik, tcr even has a non-public branch with patches that would be controversial in the official branch 16:55:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:55:59 fgump [~gump@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:57:49 was the purpose of slime-contrib to contain such things? or are these patches you refer to in the core slime system? 16:59:11 -!- googi [~googi@89.169.27.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:12 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432918.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:04:24 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:39 Fade: look around in the log, my extra patches are always rebased on the top. the problem is that the contrib stuff is not a new plugin architecture (whatever that means), but merely optionally loading stuff. there's not really a core/non-core distinction... only a load order with optionally loaded leaves. 17:10:31 e.g. the fancy inspector depends on many things in the "core" and would need extensions in the core to introduce useful features... 17:10:32 hrmn 17:11:51 i'm sorry, the uri for your gitweb has passed out of my scrollback. could you repaste? 17:12:59 what I proposed 2-3 years ago was to cut the 10000+ lines long slime.el into smaller files. I was the black sheep for that... then later on the contrib architecture was introduced which aims to be more, but isn't really much more, except the introduced extra complexity that could have been spared by merely cutting up slime into smaller files 17:13:17 http://dwim.hu/gitweb/gitweb.cgi 17:13:30 thank you 22:22:02 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:02 22:22:02 -!- names: ccl-logbot rfg rff pdo rme ASau ziga killerboy Guthur _6502_ disumu rmarianski craiggles holycow Snamich stis cls_ ignas kmwallio snorble Edward Bronsa moxiemk1 sanchaz dfox_ morphling faux kleppari timor1 jconrad V-ille SpitfireWP Ginei_Morioka cmm chemuduguntar Khisanth varjag HET2 katesmith jeti seangrove mitre horze clog gemelen loxs pnq pepone srolls leo2007 sacho jimrthy Taiyou` Amadiro gonzojive compmstr upwardindex borism em majoh AntiSpamMeta 22:22:02 -!- names: mejalx pkhuong bfein tic krl chrnybo huangjs` koollman Yuuhi Trystam gnooth_ SecretAg1nt tvaalen_ delYsid` koning_robot azuk` starseeker dmiles Maxux Fuco gigamonkey pizzledizzle nuba petercoulton Jabberwockey ehu sdsds Nshag dfkjjkfd_ powerje urandom__ benny carlocci _s1gma p_l|home bgs100 gravicappa sabalaba LiamH Patzy Soulman1 gozek easyE nmg npoektop pchrist abeaumont drdo homie kaemo billitch lhz dto PCChris taus H4ns`` cibs insomniaSalt araujo 22:22:02 -!- names: REPLeffect eugu mrSpec daniel stassats Vicfred xinming clop3 slyrus az lemoinem rtoym replete billstclair sellout Madsy^ sbahra guaqua PuffTheMagic arbscht Fullma ianmcorvidae ramus lolsuper_ Intensity sonnym Euthydemus hugod HDurer_home TeMPOraL illuminati11_13 mathrick nowhereman peterhil zc00gii DJ_Ice oconnore ajmorgan TraumaPony udzinari necroforest Salamander talyz bzzbzz boysetsfrog tritchey anonymouse89 silentbicycle strlen prip Krystof s0ber 22:22:02 -!- names: museun ZabaQ redline6561 jomat rdd antgreen prokos Xach dlowe pjb drl felipe madnificent katofiad m4thrick pierrep scode mindCrime MetalDust cYmen eno dcrawford schmrkc xristos lharc ivan4th timchen1` ddv mbohun Demosthenes ve cataska [df] Ralith Quadrescence srcerer entrosca luis quasi_ zvrba devinus adeht Borbus mpedersen abeaumont_ froydnj djinni` spiaggia mgr incandenza gor[e] BrianRice gz Draggor thom_logn Pepe_ coyo cpt_nemo reb lusory housel 22:22:02 -!- names: Zhivago Kovensky tychoish minion defn Fade spcshpopr8r jesusabdullah pok ineiros sepi l_a_m specbot frodef lispmeister_ baley beach Yamazaki-kun shachaf cipher nickaugust theBlackDragon fihi09``` guther ace4016 qebab galdor yan_ mreggen Aisling mal__ ``Erik karbak erk_ onteria derrida fe[nl]ix stepnem albino gju_ antifuchs fmu__ phadthai codemonkeyx eli |3b| kloeri acieroid quasisane zbigniew joast fmu Quetzalcoatl_ gds deepfire boyscared rotty johs 22:22:02 -!- names: vert2_ elly mornfall gonzojive1 fnordus spacebat eldragon vsync_ sid3k tessier_ trigen _8david whee_ PissedNumlock hohum cods bigjust_ tomaw z0d franki^ herbieB nullman rabite hdurer`` amaron Axioplase_ blitz_ Tordek ozzloy Dodek mtd ecraven Zahl_ lonstein kencausey krappie_ rafl foom lianj sentry _3b kae_ petter` Obfuscate jrockway setheus pr sykopomp ejohnson OliverUv dostoyevsky Buganini svk_ euphidime rokstar vandemar rapacity jamief cky peddie 22:22:02 -!- names: symbole DrForr yahooooo antoszka Odin- Tasunteld njan Bucciarati Adrinael jsnell 22:22:30 Bronsa: use asdf:system-relative-pathname instead of *whatever-truename* 22:22:45 -!- gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-6-248-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 22:25:28 -!- dfkjjkfd_ [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:25:40 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:27:31 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8175E4.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:37 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:28:22 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host241-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:28:47 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-116-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:39 unalmsed [~metapolit@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 22:34:19 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:35:28 -!- cls_ [~cs397@raptor.ukc.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:37:08 Bronsa [~bronsa@host241-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:37:41 tgg [~tgg@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-53.bu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:38:10 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host241-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:38 Bronsa [~bronsa@host241-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:41:42 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:52 hey y'all 22:42:27 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 22:42:42 ANSI Common Lisp vs Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp if I want to learn common lisp with respect to AI/NLP 22:42:46 I'm a schemer 22:43:05 mheld: PAIP all the way 22:43:12 why is that? 22:43:33 «Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming» 22:44:06 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 22:44:51 well, there's always AI: A Modern Approach after ANSI CL 22:45:36 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.206.225] has joined #lisp 22:46:03 -!- nmg [~nick@dsl78-143-210-1.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:46:18 parenthesis 22:46:21 oops 22:46:25 ignore that 22:47:52 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:56 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:31 -!- tgg [~tgg@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-53.bu.edu] has quit [Quit: tgg] 22:49:54 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:50:37 yeah, PAIP it is :-) 22:52:57 PAIP is not particularly AI-y. More like tools that fell out of the historical context of AI research. 22:53:08 Nothing much about "modern" AI techniques. 22:53:23 but it's still a fine book for learning CL 22:55:15 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432918.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:55:41 tgg [~tgg@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-53.bu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:56:41 ah 22:56:53 I won't be missing out if I focus on that, then? 22:57:20 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066012.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:57:39 Missing out on what? 22:59:11 Giraphant [~Giraphant@afav223.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:59:16 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host241-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:59:24 hello :) 23:00:33 -!- Giraphant [~Giraphant@afav223.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 23:01:18 Xach: any of the stuff that goes on in ANSI Common Lisp 23:01:20 redline6561: glad to hear yours came in. 23:01:26 *Xach* needs to send 40-ish more 23:01:41 mheld: ANSI Common Lisp is not a very good book for learning ANSI Common Lisp. Safe to skip. 23:02:04 Practical Common Lisp and PAIP are both very good. 23:02:32 ok 23:02:47 thanks 23:03:27 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:03:33 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:34 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:05:27 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A31D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:05 -!- faux [~user@c-219c70d5.035-128-67626713.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:37 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:35 -!- ziga [~user@BSN-142-187-153.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:06 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-245-93.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:58 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:16:01 -!- tgg [~tgg@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-53.bu.edu] has quit [Quit: tgg] 23:17:41 Xach any particular criticisms of ANSI Common Lisp? 23:18:44 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: night...] 23:19:18 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432918.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:20:39 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:20:46 there's the Graham Crackers site.. and perhaps the main criticism, I think, is that it doesn't sufficiently cover a considerable amount of CL 23:21:05 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:21:09 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-223-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:21 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 23:21:26 but personally I think it's a nice book, given that it's not the only CL book you read 23:22:13 adeht ok. I think it's all right, but I read it in tandem with Practical Common Lisp and PAIP 23:24:00 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:47 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:12 xan_ [~xan@26.Red-88-24-228.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:54 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:29:03 -!- disumu [~disumu@pD4B9E0C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ...] 23:29:21 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-116-182.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 23:31:01 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:15 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.206.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:49 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:37:16 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:37:28 -!- jesusabdullah [~jesusabdu@li225-26.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:38:11 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-174-190.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:38:35 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-152-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:38:36 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:39:06 jesusabdullah [~jesusabdu@li225-26.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:56 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 23:40:13 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:23 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.150.73] has joined #lisp 23:42:30 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:44:20 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:45:08 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:49:12 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-179-139-138.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:50:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-82.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:50:35 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 23:50:41 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:52:07 erory [~rory_elri@124-168-30-1.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:56:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:56:05 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-179-139-137.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp