00:00:38 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-44.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:03:25 ajmorgan: If you're coming from Scheme, defun is not the same as define in general, only the (define (f ...x...) ...y...) form which is equivalent to (defun f (...x...) ...y...) 00:03:36 Craig` [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:54 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:23 what does the N stand for in names like NCONC/NSUBLIS/etc? I mean I know it means "destructive" in a sense but why N? 00:09:42 was it nonconsing? 00:10:06 I guess that would make sense if it is that. 00:11:00 I remember vaguely that might the ethymology. 00:11:09 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:12:51 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-13-92.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:37 I'm thinking of exporting a WHILE macro in one of my libraries. Is that likely to cause any problems? At first I thought of just calling it WHILE* but maybe I'm just being needlessly parano again. Anyone aware of a library exporting a WHILE symbol? 00:14:05 ITERATE does 00:14:14 but you don't need to be paranoid about exporting symbols 00:14:27 you might want to be careful importing them into your package (: 00:14:44 Ah. Yeah, I'm trying to calm the fuck down about "potential" symbol clashes lately. 00:15:07 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-127-94.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:15:13 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-168-236-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:15:19 My first policy was "if the name sounds 'clashy' in any way, include the library's prefix in there". 00:15:23 yeah, don't worry about it 00:15:35 Cool. Thanks. 00:15:47 any users who run into clashes can still use your library and use the package-qualified name 00:15:53 (your-lib:while ...) 00:16:22 -!- ajmorgan [~ajmorgan@70.102.51.102] has quit [Quit: ajmorgan] 00:16:47 "People do that?" I haven't really used that feature much yet, though I'm fully aware of its existence. 00:17:01 sure 00:17:21 it's what this is for (: 00:17:32 some libraries assume you're doing that. 00:17:36 cl-opengl for example 00:17:37 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-41-77.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:18:26 Oh wow. I would never have dared make such an assumption in one of my own libraries. 00:18:29 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-76-102-192-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:37 I can't imagine why not 00:18:53 It might have something to do with my habit of having about 1 package for one file, though ;P 00:19:04 eek 00:19:09 Dealing with the same conflicts repeatedly would drive me insane. 00:19:19 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-234-115.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:25 one (or just a handful) package per project 00:19:25 brandonz [~brandon@c-76-102-192-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:35 one per file sounds like a bit of overkill 00:19:43 I like having the file dependencies and loading order really explicit. 00:19:55 but packages are just namespaces 00:20:05 they have nothing to do with load order 00:20:13 A bit, but it's not too bad besides some recurring emacs lackings (which I can't be bothered to fix because I'd have to learn elisp.) 00:21:10 I know, but I used to have super big projects all in one package and then because the dependencies were implicit I'd have full of loading order problems and stuff. Now I try to have more explicit dependencies. 00:21:27 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-13-92.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:21:32 are you using asdf? 00:21:35 Maybe I was just compensating in a bad way because I was a newbie, though ;P 00:21:37 Yes. 00:21:42 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-41-77.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 00:21:48 that's usually what keeps track of dependencies 00:21:54 ASDF seems to favor big monolithic systems, unfortunately. 00:22:08 I also explicitly list the file dependencies in ASDF. 00:22:17 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:22:54 Next big project I make, I might try the one-big-package route and see if I like it. 00:23:03 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 00:23:48 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:25:44 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:26:48 Hexstream: there's a few libraries exporting a symbol named WHILE, but this should be no problem thanks to the packages. On the other hand, the CL:LOOP macro uses symbols that are named "WHILE" for its syntax, so if you commited the imprudence of interning a WHILE symbol in the current package, you will have a name collision when you will try to use your library. The point here is to always use keywords for CL:LOOP keywords. 00:27:32 Yeah, that's what I was worrying about. 00:27:40 didi [~user@189-68-97-64.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 00:28:30 or alternatively, to not name something while. 00:29:36 Hence, WHILE*! I'm just trying hard to weigh which is the one likely to cause the least pain: WHILE for its straightforwardness or WHILE* for it's nonclashiness. 00:30:09 Well, "straightforwardness" as in "most intuitive name". 00:30:19 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-182-74.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:30:24 jeti [~user@p548EAE95.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:48 pjb: hey cool I didn't know you could do (loop :for i :from 1 :to 10 :collect i) 00:32:31 in fact, you *should* 00:34:04 Quadrescence: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html 00:36:00 jeti: I mean the whole :keyword dealio 00:36:11 wow that is a lot better, using keywords 00:36:52 hagman [~hagman@HSI-KBW-085-216-093-236.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 00:37:04 -!- hagman [~hagman@HSI-KBW-085-216-093-236.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:38:34 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.228] has joined #lisp 00:40:16 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:41:09 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-106-12.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:42:04 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D23E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:44:43 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:44:52 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.228] has joined #lisp 00:45:40 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:09 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has joined #lisp 00:46:24 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:46:24 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 00:52:11 -!- sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: sleepy] 00:52:14 if I remember correctly you can also use #:keywords and they are not interned 00:53:09 what function do i want if i want to iterate over a list, calling an anonymous function for each item in the list, only returning the items in the list for which the anon function returns true? 00:53:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:53:37 jeti: no point. 00:54:50 sadeness_ [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has joined #lisp 00:56:44 davertron: (mapcan #'(lambda (x) (and (numberp x) (list x))) '(a 1 b c 3 4 d 5)) => (1 3 4 5) 00:57:16 IF would do just as well as AND here... 00:57:46 thnx 00:57:56 -!- sadeness [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:58:31 example taken from clhs mapcan 00:59:28 Goes to show how unidiomatic the examples in the CLHS often are. 01:01:51 Hexstream: Styles change. IF is not in style in that situation, either. 01:02:00 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:02:32 davertron: remove-if-not. 01:02:56 Xach: Uh? What would be in style then? 01:03:01 WHEN 01:03:15 i like remove-if-not :) 01:03:16 Ouch. I basically never use WHEN. 01:03:32 well, it makes one-clause ifs nicer to read. 01:03:34 And actually never, ever use UNLESS. 01:03:44 I used when all the time...but not for any particular reason, i just like the way it reads... 01:03:52 Hexstream: How unstylish. 01:03:53 How so? Because there's 2 less spaces of indentation? 01:03:55 pjb: What do you think about juanjo's comment about taking the customary case from the host? 01:04:16 Hexstream: you can also put more than one statement in there without using progn 01:04:36 also, less mental overhead for the reader who has to figure out if your IF has an else branch or not 01:05:00 Well, of course I'd use (when do stuff) instead of (if (progn do stuff)) 01:05:10 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-133-248-102.range86-133.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:05:30 But I never, ever use (when test stuff) instead of (if test stuff). 01:05:48 Hexstream: That's bad style. 01:06:10 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:06:23 Perhaps. Nobody's meddling in my code yet so it doesn't matter much in my case, I guess. 01:06:36 But I don't think it matters as much as you think. 01:08:33 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:35 speaking as a reader of code, it's not a hugely bad thing to see (IF something do-this), but it's still mental overhead to process this into "ok, no else clause to worry about" 01:08:56 I really like consistency. At this point, I think it's better to continue using my "bad-style, Xach unapproved" convention in my existing codebases, but maybe I could use the "proper" style in any new libraries. 01:09:14 Yeah, I see what you mean. That's actually a valid point. 01:10:19 I used to think exactly the opposite: "Oh, I don't want anyone to think I do other stuff and return the values of another form in this branch". 01:10:31 I really don't like to see (when x y) used as a value: I much prefer (if x y nil) 01:10:59 Hehe. My code is littered with "implicit nils". 01:11:17 -!- devinus [~devinus@ps23102.dreamhost.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:11:27 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 01:12:05 I'm used to it. When I see code with an explicit nil like that, I go "Uh, why bother. Such a waste of time. Everyone knows there's an implicit nil anyway. Why clutter the code..." 01:12:19 devinus [~devinus@ps23102.dreamhost.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:25 Another bad-style thing I love to do is to never ever use the NULL test. And always use NOT even if NULL would be more appropriate. 01:13:48 If you want to write CL properly, do exactly the opposite I do everywhere ;P 01:14:18 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Quit:] 01:16:06 foom: Even if x has multiple forms?? 01:16:40 In other words, requires a PROGN (of course if you already need a LET or something then that's no problem). 01:16:58 -!- sadeness_ [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:17:12 I dunno, maybe. 01:17:34 Hexstream: If you want to see how bad style makes reading code hard, go look some old maxima code. 01:19:10 Oh, I'm not "pro-bad-style", of course, I'm just not convinced the parts of my style which are apparently widely considered "bad-style" would actually frustrate any attempts at trying to make sense of my code and justifiably so. 01:19:47 ("justifiably so" goes with "frustrate any attempts at trying to make sense of my code") 01:24:19 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 01:25:03 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:13 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:25:42 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:26:12 mitre [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:49 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:26:50 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:27:59 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:28:02 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 01:29:12 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 01:29:59 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:32:06 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 01:32:47 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.228] has joined #lisp 01:33:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:33:55 Hexstream: It's just another hurdle for the reader. If the hurdle is high enough, the reader might just give up. Bad style has certainly hurt progress on maxima because some of the code has such bad style along with so many global special vars (without earmuffs!) that everyone that has tried to fix bugs in that area have given up. 01:34:20 -!- jasdevsingh [~jasdevsin@122.176.169.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:09 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:35:29 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:36:01 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:37:38 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: Smoke was slowly rising as the light began to fade] 01:38:01 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 01:43:07 So, I'm trying to track down a memory leak in a CL program.. any tips for how I should go about that? 01:43:30 It's a leak in the sense that apparently references are kept to objects that I don't mean to access again, so I wish to find those references 01:44:31 (Using Allegro CL, in case there's some sort of implementation specific debugging tool I should be using) 01:45:18 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 01:45:44 -!- gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:46:37 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:47 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:48:04 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:49:21 anddd [4e6a2d31@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.106.45.49] has joined #lisp 01:51:14 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:51:36 Oh, scrolled back on your chat, i hate implicit nil's and AND's for value 01:52:21 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:25 -!- anddd [4e6a2d31@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.106.45.49] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:57:13 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:57:59 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:01:37 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 02:01:42 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 02:04:02 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:57 DocOnDev [~doc@cpe-76-188-181-22.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:24 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:34 -!- DocOnDev [~doc@cpe-76-188-181-22.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:27 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:11 What's an easy way to filter out a given key from a list of hash tables? 02:10:32 I can use map, but I'm not sure about how to remove a key/value pair from a hash table 02:11:26 seangrove: remhash key hash-table => generalized-boolean 02:12:25 so you could map over a list of hash tables, and call remhash on each with the proper key. 02:15:09 any lispbuilder-sdl people here? i'm getting this randomly at certain times when playing sound: 02:15:31 Received signal 5 in non-lisp thread 2977135472, resignalling to a lisp thread. 02:15:38 i'm not doing any wacky callback stuff. 02:23:30 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 02:31:00 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 02:31:40 Does SBCL do tail-call optimization? 02:32:09 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 02:32:58 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 02:34:34 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:42 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:35:35 yes.. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Debug-Tail-Recursion .. CMUCL's manual has more info, but I'm not sure how much is relevant to SBCL nowadays 02:37:21 adeht: is that directed toward me? 02:38:07 Probably me 02:38:13 dto1: no.. I'd check out lispbuilder-sdl source code though 02:38:39 dto1: or maybe it's the particular lisp impl. you're using 02:39:42 i think i have a bug. i removed some optimization declarations from my code and now i'm getting this 02:39:50 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:01 http://pastebin.com/KTZRMfLw 02:40:30 adeht: i have a guess what is happening... i have a weird algorithm and i am creating lots of hash tables and then throwing them away... 02:42:51 hmm 02:43:27 inforichland [~tim@75.50.90.137] has joined #lisp 02:43:52 dto1: Pending interrupt in pseudo-atomic? Is that repeatable? 02:44:31 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hzdophumwhtnbndu] has joined #lisp 02:45:13 And specifically which version of SBCL is that? 02:46:25 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:46:29 i think now i'm getting somewhere. 02:46:54 Hey all, any standard way in sbcl to just get the number of seconds since the epoch? 02:47:47 clhs get-universal-time 02:47:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_un.htm 02:48:13 seangrove: Converting to different epochs is fairly straightforward from there. 02:48:53 Ah, suppose it doesn't do milliseconds? 02:48:57 nyef: SBCL 1.0.40.0.debian 02:48:58 Looks so close to perfect :( 02:49:31 seangrove: Have a look at get-internal-run-time or whatever it's called. 02:49:35 seangrove: there's internal time as well, which is implementation-dependent 02:49:44 dto1: Okay, so it's not something recently broken. 02:49:50 The universal-time definition says it's the number of seconds since 1900 02:51:03 -!- Craig` [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:51:15 nyef: it still crashes repeatably. what can i do to get a more detailed debug report? 02:51:38 it happens after boosting the spaceship continuously for a few seconds., which generates a bunch of little sound particles 02:52:13 Say, can you get a backtrace from one of these crashes? 02:52:51 -!- jeti [~user@p548EAE95.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:53:12 If there's a callback on a lisp thread from a handler for a signal that SBCL doesn't know to defer... 02:53:45 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:35 nyef: http://pastebin.com/XYXU5NXf 02:54:45 reducing the number of sounds helped. 02:54:52 i could boost for much longer. 02:55:33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AGInhs2gaM here's a video of what i'm doing. 02:56:08 ... memory fault at #x11? That's... four slots in on an other-pointer that's been replaced with NULL? 02:56:25 i'm not sure. 02:56:37 Not sure either, TBH. 02:56:48 is it inappropriate to empty a vector by setting its fill pointer to zero? 02:56:58 No, that's perfectly reasonable. 02:57:15 does the stuff get garbage collected? 02:57:28 each little particle is a struct with a hash table 02:57:39 what if they're building up? 02:57:45 ... you haven't been redefining the structs, have you? 02:57:50 no. 02:57:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:57:59 not since ages. 02:58:51 it seems to happen #x11 in random functions that have nothing to do with one another. 02:59:23 those are the same foreign function addresses tho. 03:00:21 and sometimes i just get a segfault. 03:00:23 Ugh. I do so wish that SBCL didn't just /drop/ the context for memory faults. I know it's hard to keep for that one case, but still... 03:01:38 i've emailed the lispbuilder-sdl dev Luke. 03:01:40 just now. 03:02:04 i can't really progress on this game 03:02:09 while its crashing 03:02:24 How do i specify multiple return values in a function type declaration? 03:02:37 nyef: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJHxUrMuVUI 03:02:39 drdo: With a VALUES type. 03:02:57 nyef: I see, thanks 03:02:59 drdo: If you're on SBCL, try DESCRIBE on something in the spec that you know returns more than one value, such as FLOOR. 03:03:19 I tried TYPE-OF floor 03:04:23 [21:03.22] yes indeed I am ready to use the common lisp clone of emacs called CLIMACS which uses McCLIM 03:04:23 [21:03.35] denouement 03:04:23 [21:03.44] speaking of McCLIM i saw a sign today on the mcdonalds saying THE McRIB IS BACK 03:04:23 [21:03.52] did the mcrib ever leave 03:04:23 [21:03.57] thermoplyae, your words are like a stiff breeze 03:05:17 dto1: ... The music in that has a (repeated) brief bit that reminds me of Crystalis. 03:05:27 oh yeah? :) 03:05:28 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:05:31 i was reading about crystalis 03:05:32 the other day 03:05:34 brb 03:05:51 (The NES version, not the game boy remake.) 03:11:58 defn [~defn@rot13.pbqr.org] has joined #lisp 03:12:19 -!- bitumen [~user@c-76-24-27-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:02 suggested emacs setup for trying things out while reading through the land of lisp? got a link to some .el, dotfiles, etc.? im on ubuntu. 03:13:33 defn: did you set up slime? 03:13:56 *defn* nods 03:14:02 (for clojure at the moment) 03:14:04 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 03:14:23 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:30 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:14:42 defn: some people like paredit as well 03:15:55 adeht: sure i use paredit also -- just not sure about how to get my slime to work with common lisp 03:16:11 Is it possible to specify the type of the contents of a list? 03:16:13 with clojure i use M-x slime-connect 03:17:10 defn: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html#Installation 03:17:33 Then all you have to do is M-x slime 03:18:53 Good morning everyone! 03:19:04 Quadrescence: Where did those utterings come from? 03:19:26 _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:21:23 beach: #not-math 03:23:41 Recently? 03:25:26 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:27:01 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:32:14 powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-3-95.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:28 jleija [~jleija@adsl-178-27-65.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:18 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44:00 zophy [~sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:49 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:46:37 -!- didi [~user@189-68-97-64.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:52:26 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:52:36 -!- zophy [~sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:57:31 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57:58 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:59:29 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 03:59:52 ryaether1 [~ryan@173-26-124-96.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 04:01:49 -!- ryaether1 [~ryan@173-26-124-96.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 04:04:14 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 04:05:08 hey all. i'm trying to start the new SBCL 1.0.44 in emacs. but it conks out on ~ pathnames when starting up: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117148 04:07:57 -!- inforichland [~tim@75.50.90.137] has quit [Quit: inforichland] 04:08:16 dto1: that only started working in 1.0.44.21 04:08:39 pkhuong: is there a tarball for that? 04:10:11 pkhuong: i can't seem to find one. 04:10:22 nope, it's in CVS. 04:10:39 okay. where do i find that? 04:10:47 never mind. got it 04:10:50 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:11 which module should i check out. 04:11:56 pkhuong: it's asking for a password 04:12:47 cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@sbcl.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/sbcl login is the command i used 04:14:10 dto1: have git? git clone git://repo.or.cz/sbcl.git 04:14:26 hey thanks 04:17:45 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:09 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:19:45 tsuru: ok it's building. 04:20:18 pnq [~nick@ACA22BFE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:15 MaxEntropy [~MaxStirne@ool-4574d97a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:39 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:42 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:23:52 moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@ETSY.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:27:47 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.174.11] has joined #lisp 04:28:14 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:59 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:31:01 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-179-41.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:32:43 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-48-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:33:41 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 04:34:18 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-212-82.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:36:41 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:37:45 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-179-41.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:38:16 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.174.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:39:05 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:39:34 -!- MaxEntropy [~MaxStirne@ool-4574d97a.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 04:40:01 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-178-27-65.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:43:19 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-179-41.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:43:20 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-205-189.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:27 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-205-189.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:11 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:32 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:55:11 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:55:47 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:55:55 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F00F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:58:54 Damnit, minion! 04:58:59 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 05:00:19 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22BFE.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: sleep] 05:00:23 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:37 minion: You okay now? 05:00:37 what's up? 05:00:40 Good. 05:00:52 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-161-73-208.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: And why am I still awake at midnight, anyway?] 05:03:29 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:03:53 az [~az@p5796CBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:59 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 05:05:29 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:09:04 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:05 gigamonk` [~user@cpe-76-167-162-97.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:34 -!- gigamonkey [~user@76.167.162.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:11:18 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-3-95.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 05:11:42 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hzdophumwhtnbndu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:14:39 good morning al 05:14:45 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 05:14:58 morning 05:15:05 so common-lisp is actually a lispn 05:15:10 not lisp2 05:15:14 lisp2 is scheme 05:15:21 at least compiler wise 05:15:36 oh man 05:15:53 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:18:41 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kbtireohwrvkovgv] has joined #lisp 05:18:47 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 05:20:34 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432703.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:22:01 any one here used cl-mongo ? 05:22:28 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:25:16 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-231-36.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:43 Is there an idiomatic way to loop through a list of the form '(:key1 value1 :key2 value2 ... ) 05:25:50 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:26:10 leo2007: you mean capturing the plist values as key/value for each pair? 05:26:17 yeah 05:26:20 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-231-36.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:26:21 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:26:35 iterating a hashtable 05:26:45 hashmap 05:27:07 leo2007: (loop for (key value) on plist by #'cddr (cons key value)) 05:27:20 thanks 05:28:59 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725217.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:30:31 hi all. 05:31:28 hmm. 05:31:35 paste bucket seems not to be functioning. 05:32:13 in any case, I Was wondering if there's ever a good reason to do this: (funcall (if *upcase-attribute-strings* #'string-upcase #'identity) attribute) 05:32:23 instead simply doing this: (if *upcase-attribute-strings* (string-upcase attribute) attribute) 05:32:41 Someone might be holding your family hostage. 05:32:46 hah =) 05:33:03 good one =) 05:35:41 (funcall *normalize-attribute-strings* attribute-string) might be a better example. 05:36:57 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-242-61.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:03 where *normalize... contains whatever you want, right? 05:39:06 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-234-115.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:39:09 yes, that's what I would do too 05:39:40 I was just looking inside html-template and saw that and was wondering if it's simply a vestigial organ from a by-gone code version, or if it had a purpose I Was unaware of. 05:41:06 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-242-61.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:42:07 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 05:42:10 Is there an idiomatic way to do this? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/297916 05:42:34 without transpose 05:43:50 make a two-dimensional array and then go through it column-wise (: 05:45:03 leo2007: (apply #'mapcar (lambda (&rest args) (reduce #'max args)) lists) 05:45:26 I think the list is fine if you only have to run through it once, but if you'll have to look up with a column index later, an array will be more efficient 05:45:52 or line index of course 05:46:19 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:46:44 -!- moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@ETSY.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:21 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has joined #lisp 05:49:05 leo2007: Did you faint? 05:49:21 beach: no. why? 05:49:30 leo2007: You didn't comment on my solution. 05:50:24 beach: I almost did =) 05:50:25 beach: it works ;) 05:50:27 it was good 05:51:51 I still don't think I completely understand beach's solution. hmm. 05:52:31 oh. oh wow. 05:52:36 beach: that's very clever! 05:54:46 huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:54:58 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:49 churib [~churib@dslc-082-082-126-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:07 xscroll [~user@184-76-24-220.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:11 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-178-205-189.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:19 INFO: Control stack guard page unprotectedControl stack guard page temporarily disabled: proceed with caution -- what this means ? 06:00:39 in sbcl 06:01:11 stack is exhausted 06:01:53 too many levels of recursion maybe 06:02:02 I also like beach's solution, very nice 06:03:14 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-205-189.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:03:33 too many funcalls, argument list is too long etc... 06:04:15 homie, only thing I did: added cl-mongo in package.lisp 06:05:07 start your lisp with a bigger stack and/or memory 06:05:25 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:05:25 --dynamic-space-size --control-stack-size or such 06:05:27 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:05:57 or it is a bug in cl-mongo perhaps ? 06:06:31 what's the purpose of cl-mongo ? 06:07:50 I have a strange hang problem with SLIME + SBCL's run-program with :pty t. When I did (read-line (sb-ext:process-pty process)), and if it blocks, then there's no way for me to stop it (e.g. C-c C-c to raise the debugger and quit to the REPL restart). This gives me trouble when debugging remote ssh commands. So what is the problem and is there anyway to fix it? 06:07:51 homie, to use mongodb 06:10:39 hmm... it's not SLIME's problem, SBCL hangs actually 06:12:23 do you block it yourself ? 06:12:32 or where does the lock come from ? 06:13:18 if you set the lock yourself, you maybe set it at a not so good position maybe 06:13:37 if it is sbcl setting the lock, then it's sbcl bug maybe 06:14:35 does your code look ok ? 06:14:51 is read-line supposed to work that way ? 06:15:00 on a process ? 06:15:28 or did you set some stream to process ? 06:16:11 homie: example code: (setf p (sb-ext:run-program "/usr/bin/ssh" '("-t" "remote" "cat") :wait nil :pty t)) (read-line (sb-ext:process-pty p)) 06:18:35 i only see a sb-ext:process-input 06:18:49 and sb-ext:process-output 06:19:22 homie: there's sb-ext:process-pty. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Running-external-programs 06:19:38 ajmorgan [~ajmorgan@96.18.164.16] has joined #lisp 06:21:27 in scheme (lisp-1) I can double up on a lambda, say (define multiply-by (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (* x y)))) What is the common lisp analogue, or is there one? 06:21:56 huangjs: i think you confused something there 06:22:27 homie: can you explain? 06:23:56 huangjs: that slot is only associated with the standard input (t) 06:24:08 huangjs: in your case i mean 06:24:08 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:24:36 huangjs: and there is no function sb-ext:process-pty for use with processes 06:24:44 homie: read the doc. " the process-pty slot is filled in with a stream connected to pty that can read output and write input. " 06:25:07 homie: you can try with some write-lines + finish-output, and read-line again 06:25:35 ah ok 06:26:14 still there's no function sb-ext:process-pty for use with processes 06:26:43 homie: are you sure? that's very strange. which platform are you using? 06:26:59 ajmorgan: nesting lambdas has nothing to do with being a lisp-1 or not, since they are anonymous functions. (lambda (x) (lambda (y) ...)) is correct in CL 06:27:13 The following functions are available for use with processes, stays in the doc 06:27:19 says 06:27:29 and in that list i don't see it 06:28:09 homie: they must have missed it. :) 06:28:20 lol 06:28:54 and even if, does the returned process stream name match that what you call p there ? 06:29:08 ajmorgan: one way to return a lambda from a named function in CL is (defun foo (x) (lambda (y) ...)) 06:29:12 you didn't name it 06:29:39 homie: p is the process object 06:29:43 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:29:46 arbscht: the variable x isn't making it into the second lambda. This works fine in plt-scheme (racket), but errors out in sbcl. I'm just having a hard time pulling any information on google as to why this is happening 06:29:46 ah ok 06:30:04 ok then it's the pseudo function call there 06:30:06 lol 06:30:23 that's for sure, it's not in the list i see 06:30:36 ajmorgan: use paste.lisp.org to show us your code 06:31:59 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725217.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 06:32:48 when two packages export same name symbol , how to resolve ? 06:33:15 arbscht: done deal 06:33:21 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:34:32 ajmorgan: DEFINE is not defined in CL 06:35:07 arbscht: yes, that is the scheme code that works, replacing it with defun does not work 06:35:17 ajmorgan: what is your CL code, then? 06:35:20 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:20 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:35:20 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 06:35:50 arbscht: I just replaced the defines with defun 06:36:11 ajmorgan: you can annotate your paste with additional related code 06:36:42 arbscht: sure, I'll get another paste up 06:38:37 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:42:24 ajmorgan: you seriously expect find/replace to port it? 06:42:45 ajmorgan: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/mac_defun.html 06:43:16 ajmorgan: I linked you to the docs several hours ago, why didn't you read them? 06:44:13 Ralith: yes, I read them. Did you see any nested lambdas in the hyperspec? I didn't 06:44:29 arbscht: I just submitted a correct paste 06:45:46 drdo: yeah, thanks, read those. I don't have a problem defining functions, I want to know why the inner closure doesn't contain the outer lambda input 06:45:53 ajmorgan: the hyperspec describes the form of DEFUN, so you can use it correctly 06:45:57 a correct in what sense? 06:46:04 ajmorgan: it seems you do have a problem defining functions 06:46:32 ajmorgan: if you want scheme, you know where to find it 06:46:41 arbscht: I have a problem defining functions that return functions. 06:46:44 ajmorgan: You do have a problem, that's why i linked 06:46:52 ajmorgan: No, you don't 06:47:02 minion: please tell ajmorgan about PCL 06:47:03 ajmorgan: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 06:47:23 ajmorgan: no, you have a problem defining functions. if you read the hyperspec or better yet, an introductory book on CL, you would see that 06:47:43 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:47:46 go read this and stop wasting our time by trying to apply rules of Scheme to CL 06:47:51 ajmorgan: CL is not scheme with some names changed around. If you actually read the docs you've been linked twice now you'd know this. 06:47:57 at least twice, that is. 06:48:02 I'm on chapter 8 of PCL, and came here with an advanced question. I've researched it, and assumed you guys could help 06:48:10 my bad 06:48:31 ajmorgan: In is not an advanced question. It shows lack of understanding of the basics of Common Lisp. 06:48:40 if you can't even deign to read the relevant CLHS when outright told that it's what you need, I fear to imagine what your idea of research is. 06:49:02 Pretty sure knowing how to use DEFUN isn't an advanced question 06:49:44 ajmorgan: what do you think the second argument to DEFUN represents? and what is the second argument in your use of DEFUN? 06:51:24 arbscht: there is no second argument, I want to build a multiplier. Return a function that will take an argument and multiplies it by the original (first) argument 06:52:08 ajmorgan: the DEFUN macro as defined in CL takes several arguments 06:52:28 ajmorgan: have you ever defined your own functions in CL? 06:52:44 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:53:18 This trolling is getting out of hand 06:56:25 arbscht: all I can tell is that the inner closure isn't getting the variable from the outer closure. Whether I use defun or just funcall with nested lambdas 06:56:49 -!- HDurer_home [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:58:01 ajmorgan: All i can tell is that you don't understand much and should be reading a book instead of arguing on #lisp 06:58:04 ajmorgan: that's too bad. good luck! 06:58:12 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:58:51 arbscht: thank you for the help anyhow. 06:59:01 see, when you repeatedly show no signs of understanding, #lisp becomes pretty harsh 07:00:40 lovesan [~lovesan@109.226.76.73] has joined #lisp 07:00:54 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 07:01:03 stassats: I still don't see the argument. I asked for help translating some scheme code. Obviously that's beneath you. 07:01:55 ajmorgan: You have been repeatedly instructed to read the DEFUN CLHS page 07:02:11 ajmorgan: that's because people want to teach you how to translate it yourself, not to translate it for you 07:02:46 Hi all. Can someone recommend some books/papers that are related to SBCL's garbage collector implementation(GENCGC)? I've found several http links in sources but all of them seem to be broken, unfortunately. 07:03:24 lovesan: you can start with bigsurv.ps for an overview of GC techniques 07:03:32 minion: bigsurv? 07:03:32 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``bigsurv''. 07:03:42 well, google knows 07:04:11 On that note, is LISP In Small Pieces good? 07:04:19 drdo: I've read it. I'll read it again for you 07:04:41 reading is not enough, you should understand what you read 07:05:28 ajmorgan: You need to do the full interpreting job, reading like READ does is not enough 07:06:28 yep, and that does involve maybe more then one pass of READ on some chapters or parts 07:06:45 get slow when you read it 07:07:40 stassats: thanks, i've downloaded it. Is there anything else that might be helpful? 07:10:02 drdo: LiSP is excellent! Especially the English translation! 07:10:28 will there be an english translation for the second edition? 07:10:49 What language is it original written in? 07:10:50 stassats: I don't know. Christian hasn't asked my wife. :) 07:10:55 drdo: French. 07:11:07 English translation it is then 07:11:21 Going to grab it from the library 07:11:46 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:12:50 daniel__ [~daniel@p50829F4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:58 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:14:34 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082BD6A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:14:36 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 07:15:07 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 07:17:16 -!- lovesan [~lovesan@109.226.76.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:17:16 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 07:17:16 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 07:17:16 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:17:45 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:18:27 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 07:18:45 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:18:57 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:19:25 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:25 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:19:25 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 07:22:19 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 07:23:55 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:24:23 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qnvvbnellcaeaydp] has joined #lisp 07:29:04 hrm, racket or newlisp. 07:29:37 -!- splittist [~John@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 07:29:45 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-76-102-192-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:30:43 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:31:43 Demosthenes: ditch both 07:31:56 i'm ready to ditch sbcl 07:32:05 sure, i've got an environment setup, slime and libs... 07:32:14 but it appears that i can't distribute anything i write 07:32:19 without the user trying to do the same 07:32:30 ? 07:32:40 that doesn't seem to be true 07:34:50 right. i've been reading into the issue, and either cl-launch or making an executable... 07:35:02 -!- prip [~foo@host166-123-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:35:20 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-101.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:27 Demosthenes: What do you want to do? 07:36:01 drdo: simplify the mess 07:36:15 what mess? 07:36:24 i have a heavy perl background, and i've gotten used to slime/sbcl to a degree 07:37:35 but it seems unwieldy to try and share any code. seems stackoverflow and quite a few blogs moan about the same thing. 07:38:12 let them moan 07:38:19 I don't understand, you're saying it is hard to share CL code? 07:38:38 with users, yes. 07:38:47 How come? 07:38:55 What about it do you find hard? 07:39:27 it's not like perl, i guess 07:39:27 they either have to install sbcl and figure out how to install the rest of the libraries, or i have to make a save-image executable for every platform/environment 07:39:45 luckily, we have quicklisp 07:39:50 ecl apparently makes good standalone executables. 07:40:13 racket on the other hand, comes with the basics across platforms (gui lib & regexps at least) 07:40:20 Demosthenes: Isn't it exactly like that with perl? 07:40:26 Or pretty much every language 07:40:37 and newlisp seems to think its a scripting language. 07:40:49 newlisp even thinks that it's a lisp 07:41:10 yeah, the issues with nondeclared vars eval to nil, and '() != nil are kinda scary 07:41:41 I don't see how this issue is specific to lisp, can you elaborate? 07:43:06 i agree perl modules can be a hassle too. on the other hand, the standard library of modules that comes out of the box covers about 70% of my uses, and "cpan Module::X" handles the rest 07:45:10 holy shit 07:45:13 conversation here this late? 07:46:40 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 07:46:45 Could be seen as "this early" 07:46:51 It's 07:46 here 07:46:58 Althought for me it is indeed "this late" 07:46:59 zc00gii: it's only 10:46 am 07:47:09 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 07:47:24 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:47:27 Demosthenes: It's the same with every language, and we have quicklisp now :) 07:47:30 prip [~foo@host163-9-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:48:46 stassats: it's 2:47am here 07:48:53 gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 07:49:07 -!- guther_ is now known as guther 07:49:19 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:49:20 so 07:49:24 common lisp sucks as a lisp 07:49:26 agreed? 07:49:29 well, not sucks perse 07:49:33 but it's old and worn out 07:50:15 drdo: yeah, i'm not convinced with quicklisp 07:50:24 I'm outdated 07:50:28 if it's almost 3am doesn't mean that you have to talk nonsense 07:50:29 I still use asdf and asdf-install 07:50:29 Demosthenes: Why's that? 07:50:43 stassats: how am I talking nonsense? 07:50:47 common lisp is old and worn out 07:50:48 zc00gii: Everyone uses ASDF 07:50:50 that's truth. 07:50:54 oh this ought to be good 07:51:03 quicklisp replaces asdf-install, not asdf 07:51:10 drdo: I know 07:51:27 drdo: some surely use mk-defsystem 07:51:31 I said the wrong words, 07:51:32 anyway 07:51:57 who agrees with me about CL being dirty, old, and worn out? 07:52:08 please, stop 07:52:10 stassats: Come on, it's 8 in the morning, i haven't slept all night, this isn't the time to go to pedantic city 07:52:23 stassats: why? why do you think it's not? 07:52:39 I use it, but not because it's the bet 07:52:40 zc00gii: because this discussion is pointless 07:52:41 best* 07:52:52 stassats: well, I'd like to collaborate ideas for a future lisp 07:52:52 zc00gii: We're all waiting to see your proposed replacement with matching implementation 07:53:15 well, first of all, I don't like singly-linked lists 07:53:26 Why is that? 07:53:36 I say have a czr(previous cons) car(one with the element) and cdr(next cons) 07:54:22 drdo: with doubly-linked lists, you can iterate back too. 07:54:43 but I dunno how I'd express it. 07:54:44 What's stopping you from implementing doubly-linked lists in CL? 07:54:57 drdo: nothing, but other things irk me. 07:55:03 right. well my original question wasn't "try to stay on CL", its given that neither newlisp or racket are as cool or fully awesome as CL, which should i use? 07:55:12 things like length, +, *, etc are all functions, not methods 07:55:17 so operator overloading is a no no 07:55:19 zc00gii: No one is saying CL is perfect 07:55:31 drdo: of course not. 07:55:33 But, no real replacement has come forth, so until then 07:55:41 clojure has come close 07:55:44 Demosthenes: neither, this channel is about CL, we don't do scheme or mumbo-jumbo advice 07:55:45 besides being on the jvm. 07:55:55 stassats: then it should be #common-lisp 07:56:00 I don't agree with stuff that CL does 07:56:03 *clojure 07:56:14 stassats: also, it's late, and I doubt anyone really wants help here anyway. 07:56:23 Demosthenes: maybe it should, but it isn't, so you'll have to live with the fact that #lisp is dedicated to common lisp 07:56:26 i go to lengths to avoid the jvm, you'll note i didn't ask about clojure ;] 07:56:31 Just be friends, make up, we can talk about all lisps 07:57:00 zc00gii: it's not late, stop being your-country-centric 07:57:15 People who assume everyone is in the USA annoy me 07:57:22 so still now any user of cl-mongo here ? 07:57:27 nah, i'm in the usa and assume everyone's in sweden 07:57:56 If anyone can assume anything it's me, because i'm on UTC 07:57:59 :P 07:58:31 so i guess my issue is i'm seeking a more perlesque lisp, being less industrial than CL, easier to distribute / more end user friendly. 07:59:06 Demosthenes: I still don't see your issue with the distribution, it's the same whatever language you use 07:59:19 I need some suggestions 07:59:19 Either you just package it all up like Windows or OS X applications do 07:59:42 how should doubly-linked lists be constructed? 07:59:44 Or you make packages for various package managers, or, like everyone else 07:59:52 you just put a INSTALL and/or README file 07:59:54 drdo: there are different degrees of difficulty... like i said, i could expect an end user to do "cpan Module::X" to fill a dependency, but asdf is beyond them 07:59:56 like singly are (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 nil)))) 08:00:02 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 08:00:17 Demosthenes: I'm pretty sure everyone can do (ql:quickload "x") 08:00:38 Or you can just include it as part of your distribution 08:00:55 (the code to use quicklisp) 08:00:57 Demosthenes: I think the answer you are looking for is that it seems Racket has a bigger following than newlisp. 08:01:01 Not a big deal at all 08:01:27 my best idea would be to change the evaluation method 08:02:32 herm 08:02:59 zc00gii: come back when you have an idea of what you want to accomplish 08:03:13 stassats: I know what I want to establish 08:03:23 doubly-linked lists with a nice way of constructing them 08:03:47 s/establish/accomplish 08:03:55 I don't think there's much debate on how to implement doubly-linked lists 08:03:59 It's fairly trivial 08:04:09 I can't think of a way 08:04:26 to construct them in a lispy way like singly linked lists are 08:04:30 You can't think of a way to implement a doubly-linked list? 08:04:33 (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 nil)))) <- singly 08:04:36 drdo: no. 08:05:03 I mean, I can make one with a datastructure, but not a lispy cons-like way 08:05:10 zc00gii: it will be the same 08:05:18 wait 08:05:20 I have an idea 08:05:29 no 08:05:31 hmm 08:05:41 sigh 08:06:10 stassats: you know what doubly linked lists are right? 08:06:12 it's like... 08:06:15 zc00gii, if everything else fails, use an array - first slot is backpointer, second slot is nextpointer, third slot is data 08:06:19 why don't you just write a conversion function that does single->double 08:06:29 flip214: well, that's easy 08:06:43 I mean expressing it in a expanded lispy way 08:06:47 See? Using multiple cons-cells for a double-linked-list is left as an exercise 08:06:52 (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 nil)))) that way for singly 08:06:53 for the reader 08:08:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:09:37 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-31.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:09:45 zc00gii: What exactly are you trying to do? 08:10:06 drdo: you know how (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 (cons 4 nil)))) is an expanded form of (1 2 3 4)? 08:10:19 yes 08:10:23 -!- ajmorgan [~ajmorgan@96.18.164.16] has quit [Quit: ajmorgan] 08:10:30 well, I want a way to expand (1 2 3 4) if it were a doubly linked list 08:10:54 Well, to construct a doubly linked list, you need the previous element as well 08:11:02 yes 08:11:14 hard to do with nested parens 08:11:42 Why would you want to write a chain of cons anyway? 08:11:56 zc00gii: what about something like this: (do-backlinks (dcons nil 'data (dcons nil 'data2 nil))) => a doubly linked list 08:11:57 (cons nil 1 (cons 2 (cons 3.... 08:12:21 oconnore: that's not a bad idea. 08:12:30 zc00gii: You never do that 08:12:40 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-16-192.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:12:48 oconnore: or maybe... 08:12:51 You either make a list, and you could have something like (dcons 1 2 3 4 5) 08:13:01 Or you recurse on lists 08:13:07 (link (dcons nil 1 nil) (dcons nil 2 nil) (dcons nil 3 nil) (dcons nil 4 nil)) 08:13:08 In which case you would need another parameter 08:13:17 with the previous 08:13:26 zc00gii: Good, you are making progress. 08:13:49 then for slightly expanded expression 08:13:50 zc00gii: The next step is to write (dlist 1 2 3 4) :P 08:13:59 I don't understand is why you would want something like that 08:14:02 (nil . 1 . 2 . 3 . 4 . nil) 08:14:12 (defstruct double-link value previous next) (defun dcons (value next) (let ((new-dcons (make-double-link :value value :next next))) (when next (setf (double-link-previous next) new-dcons)) new-dcons)) 08:14:16 drdo: so you can go back to the previous list. 08:14:34 like, so you can do funky reference shit. 08:14:39 Or, if you want to go with an array, but no function, you could even write this: #1=#(NIL #2=#(#1# #(#2# NIL 3) 2) 1) 08:14:51 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 08:15:09 but I think you're better off with a function, macro, or possibly even a reader macro for readability 08:15:23 I'm not implementing it into CL 08:15:32 I'm making a lisp that I want to implement in this with 08:16:01 and there will be cwr(back link) car(data in this cons) and cdr(front link) 08:16:20 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-31-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:16:20 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:16:35 zc00gii: so, create a channel for your new lisp and you can flood with all this nonsense all day long 08:17:08 >nonsense 08:17:10 that's rude. 08:18:04 zc00gii: if you aren't doing CL, why not just do something funky 08:18:06 like 08:18:12 {1 2 3} = a doubly linked list 08:18:18 where (1 2 3) = a singly linked list 08:18:27 there will be no singly linked lists 08:18:35 that is stupid 08:18:46 stassats: you're stupid :D 08:19:57 in reality though, stassats: I don't appreciate blatant insults to my ideas. 08:19:59 zc00gii: It really feels like you haven't really thought about this 08:20:05 drdo: I have. 08:20:22 zc: That is a tremendously bad idea. 08:20:22 zc00gii: then make better ideas 08:20:27 zc00gii: why do we need a new language with doubly linked list? 08:20:45 oconnore: we don't need one for that exact reaso 08:21:10 what exact reason/ 08:21:11 what? 08:21:12 ? 08:21:24 oconnore: many. 08:21:37 Good morning everyone! 08:21:53 Ok, at least this is decent level trolling 08:21:53 such as? 08:21:54 What a, let's say, special discussion! 08:22:11 oconnore: being different for the sake of being different 08:22:32 doubly linked lists are occasionally useful, but very occasionally. 08:22:51 stassats: please don't open your mouth when nothing useful or constructive will come out 08:23:00 oconnore: well, more things are methods 08:23:06 so operator overloading and such 08:23:14 The result of such a design would produce something similar to C in terms of memory management. 08:23:34 Zhivago: I don't think so 08:23:43 so doubly linked lists increase OO design? :P 08:23:51 oconnore: no 08:24:00 it will just be one other feature of my lisp. 08:24:14 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:24:18 zc00gii: Implement it and play around with it 08:24:25 why not just tack it on top of common lisp? 08:24:27 drdo: I am :) 08:24:34 koning_r1bot: many reasons. 08:24:35 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:24:35 Doubly linked lists prohibit any shared structure. 08:24:45 This all reminds me of an old essay I wrote: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/wrong.text 08:25:06 Zhivago: eh? please explain! 08:25:17 spiaggia: Is it about parenthesis? 08:25:22 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 08:25:34 zc: Explain how you think you could have shared structure with a doubly linked list -- think it through. 08:25:36 zc00gii: name some 08:25:36 -!- churib [~churib@dslc-082-082-126-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:25:53 zc: How many parents can a node in a doubly linked list have? 08:25:54 churib [~churib@dslc-082-082-126-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:57 stassats: Well in that case I'm going to one up him and implement a language built on arbitrary graphs. 08:25:59 drdo: No, it's about Lisp attracting all kinds of strange people who think they are able to improve upon it. 08:26:13 oconnore: that's rebellious enough, go ahead! 08:26:47 spiaggia: Ok, going to read then :) 08:26:52 Of course you can improve on it. 08:26:53 :) 08:27:08 But you should at least understand it and basic CS first. 08:27:15 zc: Well? 08:27:42 You should probably replace () with something like <> while you're at it, to drive to rebellion in 08:27:48 *the 08:27:52 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:28:01 < is problematic, due to the < operator. 08:28:10 koning_r1bot: well, what I want to do with it really. 08:28:19 zc: No ideas, then? 08:28:26 I was going to write the << thing but i just noticed this keyboard doesn't have it 08:28:32 Zhivago: Of course it can be improved upon, but not by people who don't understand why a doubly-linked list prevents sharing. 08:28:36 drdo, do you want mine? «» 08:28:52 it's C-x 8 < in emacs 08:29:01 spiaggia: what do you mean by sharing? 08:29:06 stassats: Not here 08:29:20 zc00gii: I am not going to go there. Sorry. 08:29:21 how about ALTGR-x and y? 08:29:34 «««« 08:29:39 that's altgr-x 08:29:56 that's what you wanted, no? 08:30:01 zc: Well. Sounds like you have some thinking to do. 08:30:04 altgr-shift-x is » 08:30:09 yay 08:30:13 zc: Let me know if you manage to answer my questions. 08:30:37 with shift I get these: ‹› 08:30:48 Zhivago: could be because I'm stoned and it's 3:30am 08:30:55 it shows 08:31:06 zc: Go away until you are less stupid. 08:31:30 I'm not stupid. 08:31:39 lol 08:31:45 You cover it up really well then 08:32:01 zg: Of course you are stupid. 08:32:06 zc00gii: (let* ((a (list 1 2 3 4)) (b (cdr a))) (setf (cdr (cdr a)) 0) (eq (cdr b) 0)) 08:32:13 zc00gii: that's two lists sharing structure 08:32:15 zc: It's just a question of to what degree you are presently stupid. 08:32:29 zc: So, go away until you are less stupid, and capable of answering simple questions. 08:32:50 koning_r1bot: oh, that. 08:33:23 koning_r1bot: think, you could still make it share structure 08:33:29 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:33:37 cdr, car, and cwr exist. 08:33:58 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 08:34:10 -!- zc00gii [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has been kicked from #lisp by Zhivago (Less babbling) 08:34:21 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:27 that was uncalled for. 08:35:06 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:19 That all depends on what you do next. 08:35:26 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:35:40 get off and sleep? 08:35:44 yes, it is uncalled for. 08:35:52 spiaggia: What is this performance thing you talk about? 08:36:02 Does anyone know how to fix my error loading swank? "Module XREF was not provided by any function on *MODULE-PROVIDER-FUNCTIONS*" 08:36:13 you can't make '(1 2 3 4) and '(2 3) share structure because the last cons (with car 3) has a pointer to the cons with car 4. you can't make doubly-linked lists share structure for a similar reason 08:36:14 drdo: You'll have to look at the other essay: The psychology of learning! 08:36:20 oconnore: where are you loading it? 08:36:26 zc: If it helps you to become less stupid then it was a worthwhile investment. 08:36:53 koning_r1bot: I can, and will. 08:37:00 just requires a bit of tinkering 08:37:03 stassats: Do you mean implementation? Clozure. 08:37:06 spiaggia: I mean it in the sense that CL implementations offer quite good performance 08:37:23 oconnore: can you do (require 'xref) not in slime? 08:37:32 And it is clearly not the reason, considering the languages people are using 08:37:33 drdo: I don't think I am talking about that kind of performance at all. 08:37:44 stassats: no, it's the same error 08:38:44 then your installation of ccl is wrong 08:38:48 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-221-174.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:03 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 08:39:24 or your customizations for ccl:*module-provider-functions* are wrong 08:39:32 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:36 spiaggia: "but I think 08:39:36 the reason for that is that programming is still perceived as an 08:39:36 activity that anyone without any training (the less training the 08:39:36 better, it seems) should be able to do." 08:39:45 oops, bad copy paste 08:39:56 I have no customizations. So the ccl trunk is just wrong? 08:40:03 This, i think is, very true 08:40:10 drdo: I am talking about a term in psychology where a person is "performance oriented" if he or she has a desire to avoid learning anything new, to the point of defending his or her inferior practices or knowledge even though he or she looks like an ignorant fool. 08:40:12 oh, nevermind 08:40:24 oconnore: do you have lib/xref.lisp file? 08:40:44 spiaggia: I don't see how that name could ever mean that 08:40:45 jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-37-133.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:00 drdo: Get over it. It's just a name. 08:41:03 You can argue that it increases your short-term "performance" i guess 08:41:05 stassats: Sorry, nevermind, I was silly. I was loading from an image that i made before I installed slime. 08:41:16 I loaded ccl fresh and it works now 08:41:21 drdo: The same way that "hygienic" macros do not avoid a single microbe. 08:42:37 spiaggia: That intrigues me, why do people think programming is really easy and everyone ought to be able to do it with minimal training? 08:42:52 drdo: I don't know. 08:43:15 drdo: I just observe and ask professional to explain my observations. I am not a psychologist. 08:44:08 This is specially interesting because top hackers acknowledge all the time how hard it is 08:44:17 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:20 And everyone can see how bad most code is 08:44:26 drdo: people around me think that programming is really hard and i must be genius or something 08:44:54 stassats: Same here at the univ 08:45:16 What they forget is that i started programming when i was around 11-12 08:45:26 The only problem is that they've confused "hard" with "unnatural". 08:46:06 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:47:38 spiaggia: by the way just noticed a typo if you care 08:47:56 drdo: Sure. 08:48:08 "will be takes seriously by the members of the "Lisp community", that" on the second paragraph from the end 08:48:35 drdo, most people *don't* see how bad code is 08:48:54 drdo: Fixed. Thanks! 08:49:15 to see that they would have to know what to look for - and that takes some training ... see yesterdays link http://norvig.com/21-days.html 08:49:57 flip214: You would imagine employers wouldn't hire such people 08:50:21 citizen428 [~citizen42@chello213047077012.23.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:50:24 And they obviously wouldn't have the ability for a start up 08:50:57 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:51:00 drdo: You are assuming something that is wrong, namely that employers can distinguish between good and bad code. This is rarely the case. 08:51:30 spiaggia: I've read all sorts of articles about that 08:52:09 drdo: I would be interested in URLs if you stumble across some. 08:52:10 It just comes across as really odd, i mean, that doesn't seem like a sane way to run a company 08:52:24 drdo: I definitely agree with you! 08:53:09 Hmm 08:53:34 I guess what happens is that initially companies start with good programmers 08:53:53 And eventually when they grow, they have enough money to be able to hire bad employees 08:54:25 drdo: No, actually, most companies that do programming start as companies who didn't use to do any programming at all, so they don't have the competence for it, nor do they even know that the don't. 08:54:41 drdo, http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2005/01/27.html 08:54:46 "Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1%." 08:55:28 spiaggia: which is called "Dunning-Kruger effect" 08:55:34 spiaggia: Really? I mean, the 2 guys in a basement start up seems really popular 08:55:53 ahah 08:55:55 stassats: I read about that like yesterday or something 08:55:57 heh 08:56:05 Some link on either reddit or HN 08:56:23 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.98.51] has joined #lisp 08:56:49 everyone wants to hire the top 1% but expects to pay market conform wages 08:58:39 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.98.51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:58:55 mal__: The problem is that it's really hard to measure 08:59:13 You have to work closely with someone to get a feeling for how good they are 08:59:36 And i'm guessing this isn't at all the case once companies get a certain size 09:00:15 stassats: Thanks. Googling now... 09:00:50 drdo: OK, perhaps I should not have said "most companies", but "the companies that most programmers work for" or something like that. 09:01:06 drdo: I meant to count IBM a bit more than you garage startup. 09:01:48 Eh, IBM is not exactly a software company 09:02:06 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7548f3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:10 stassats: Excellent! Thanks for pointing that out! 09:03:56 has anybody experienced postmodern not returning simple-dates but bigint's when running a query? 09:04:30 Harag: suddenly? no. is your table declaration correct? 09:05:14 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:05:14 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:05:20 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:05:24 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:05:33 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 09:05:33 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 09:05:33 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 09:05:41 jdz it works on my server but on my dev box it does not and I just restored the db from the server on my dev box 09:06:07 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-31.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:06:10 drdo: One can improve things considerably with only minor adjustments. My friend mvilleneuve told me the other day that when he asks simple technical questions about algorithmics on job interviews, the vast majority of applicants fail to give the right answer. Those applicants get hired elsewhere, showing that in most companies, they don't even ask simple technical question like that. 09:06:17 Harag: the problem appears not to be in postmodern, then 09:06:39 spiaggia: I've never applied for a job, that's something i've wondered for a while 09:06:50 That is, if they actually ask any questions like that 09:06:59 Or just expect to hear buzzwords 09:07:06 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:07:20 like AJAX, cloud, virtual, java, etc 09:07:31 jdz: where would you guess the problem could be? 09:07:44 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:08:07 Harag: i'd check the stuff i've changed recently 09:08:38 Harag: or the [relevant] differences between your dev machine and the server 09:08:53 Harag: it's sometimes tricky to judge what's relevant 09:09:12 the dev box has been running for a long time and both the dev and server where setup with quicklisp recently so I dont think I change anything of importance 09:09:46 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:10:10 Someone please make the rain stop :( 09:10:29 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-31.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 09:11:02 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:11:02 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:11:02 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 09:11:10 jdz: there might be a diff in the version of postgres (the dev box being older) but the dev box use to work fine 09:11:21 drdo: Rain? What rain? http://antoszka.pl/row.jpg 09:12:15 antoszka: I would trade this rain for that 09:12:26 antgreen: hehe, learned that 4wd breaks the same as 2wd in snow? 09:12:45 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:12:52 drdo: As I was the driver of that vehicle I can assure you you wouldn't :) 09:13:12 antoszka: I'm taking the train, doesn't bother me :P 09:13:23 jdz: Still it was doing much better than 2wd until then :) 09:14:25 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:14:53 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.75.255] has joined #lisp 09:15:48 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:18:57 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:22:39 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:23:05 -!- xscroll [~user@184-76-24-220.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:24:26 aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has joined #lisp 09:24:32 o/ 09:26:24 ZabaQ [~Zaba@11.86-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:19 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Quit: leaving for a few weeks/months :( got stuff after school to do] 09:29:05 marijnjh [~user@p5DDB1A89.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:40 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:34:50 -!- mgr [~mgr@newbox.phinn.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:38:25 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 09:42:14 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 09:44:05 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:45:49 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 09:52:35 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-123-181.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:57:12 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:00:57 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu182.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:03:14 quasi_, ping 10:06:00 fred-o [~user@spix-clav01.driften.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:55 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-153-59-43.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:08:54 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-37-133.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:08:54 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 10:10:00 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:12:18 what is currently the best option for parsing HTML in CL? 10:12:56 Related to that, cliki seems screwy -- http://www.cliki.net/admin/search?words=html says it has results, but won't show me any 10:15:22 marijnjh: cliki is screwy. try http://www.cliki.net/Web or something 10:15:40 Yeah, was going to link that 10:15:51 There's a section on parsing HTML 10:16:05 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:16:13 'morning 10:16:44 hi Fade 10:16:45 Good morning 10:17:10 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:17:15 I guess there's at least one lisper in every time zone. :) 10:17:16 -!- churib [~churib@dslc-082-082-126-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:27 so apart from Franz' stuff (which I just gave up on), there's closure-html. any comments/experiences with that? 10:17:42 closure-html is a solid package. 10:18:08 cool, i'll give it a spin 10:18:25 -!- bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:18:52 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:03 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:20:53 marijnjh: oh, there's also http://www.cl-user.net/asp/search?search=html 10:23:58 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:25:18 (defpackage :clex ..) (in-package :CLEX) -- sometimes it seems people are intentionally screwing with users of Allegro's case-sensitive mode 10:26:15 row row fight the powa 10:26:39 I think it's more a case of allegro's case sensitive mode not being compliant with ANSI code? :) 10:27:15 I actually never quite understood the advantages of case insensitivity 10:27:40 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:28:16 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:28:23 drdo: it's mostly that your repl doesn't yell at you anymore. downcase-everything would also work 10:28:41 marijnjh: ? 10:29:46 yell as in spit out large amounts of upper-case text 10:29:50 loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has joined #lisp 10:30:01 but don't expect me to argue here, i'm no believer either way 10:30:05 e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:25 marijnjh: You seem to be making the case for NOT being case insensitive 10:30:44 drdo: I've lost you 10:30:53 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu182.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:30:59 cl is case preserving, optionally. 10:31:05 marijnjh: Some people actually *are* screwing :-) 10:31:07 the reader is case normalising. 10:31:09 I said i didn't understand the advantages of case INsensitivity 10:31:41 drdo: ho-hum. I misread you 10:31:45 Your replies make me believe you read it as "case sensitivity" 10:31:49 There we go :P 10:33:17 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 10:36:50 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:41:29 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.57.220] has joined #lisp 10:42:50 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:43:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-219-135.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:46:40 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:20 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:51:02 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52:26 Krystof [~csr21@cpc2-dals3-0-0-cust1263.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:53:08 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:57:00 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 10:59:21 xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:00:21 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 11:04:32 "poor preformers do not learn from feedback suggesting a need to improve". Interesting! 11:04:49 heh, camelCase in CL code, now I've seen it all 11:05:05 churib [~churib@dslc-082-082-126-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:14 (closure-html/src/util/lalr.lisp) 11:06:16 <_8david> Created: 1988 11:06:35 That quotation was form the Wikipedia article on the Dunning-Kruger effect. All our efforts to give feedback to poor performers here on #lisp may be in vain! :( 11:07:20 There is a solution of the Dunning-Kruger effect problem. 11:07:25 s/of/to/ 11:07:37 What's that? 11:07:38 Hans````` [~user@p579F8AB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:09 learning 11:08:35 It involves beating the fact that they are stupid and incompetent into their thick skulls until they finally realize it, and then they can start to stop. 11:08:50 -!- Hans````` is now known as H4ns 11:13:58 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 11:15:36 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:20:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 11:21:58 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@218.82.79.26] has joined #lisp 11:22:53 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7548f3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:23:25 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.57.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:28:08 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Quit: longshot] 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to that consistently 13:04:38 *tcr* just concluded 13:06:47 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:38 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:13:45 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-147-61.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:14:55 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 13:15:30 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-173-171.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:15:51 LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-218.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:16:12 craiggle1 [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:35 netytan [~netytan@host86-175-234-108.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:50 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.228.254] has joined #lisp 13:21:30 -!- citizen428 [~citizen42@chello213047077012.23.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:00 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-153-59-217.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:16 -!- craiggle1 is now 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[~jconrad@host109-153-45-102.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:44:19 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 13:46:34 novaburst [~novaburst@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 13:47:58 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 13:48:08 -!- heina [~heina@h220-215-160-087.catv02.itscom.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:47 Is there a CL Font rasterization library, besides lb-SDL? 13:53:22 Guthur: there was one that rasterized TTF through Vecto 13:53:46 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:51 zpb-ttf probably 13:54:33 jdz, It doesn't support rasterization 13:55:10 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:55:44 *mega1* released the sources of the bot: http://quotenil.com/git/?p=planet-wars.git;a=summary 13:56:10 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-70-171.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:56:11 oh, though http://nklein.com/ has a tutorial for rendering in Cl-opengl using zpd-ttf 13:56:25 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:56:33 Guthur: I recall seeing McCLIM doing font rendering by itself 13:58:04 I want it for use in an opengl application 13:58:25 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-99-193.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:59:18 Guthur: oh, text output in opengl, sounds fun. 14:00:28 It's not going to be anything too fancy, I'm playing around with procedural generation and I'm wanting to build a limited toolchain 14:00:39 need text for it to be useful 14:01:01 kanru [~kanru@118-168-236-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:10 Though I'd like to keep close integration with emacs/slime as well 14:01:32 Guthur: you might be interested in studying Dwarf Fortress regarding procedural generation of content 14:01:45 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:01:50 -!- daniel is now known as daniel-kun 14:01:59 p_l|uni, yep, it's on my radar 14:02:10 don't want to get sucked into playing it though, hehe 14:02:33 i think i once read an article about tha 14:02:34 t 14:02:39 probably it's somewhere in the wiki 14:02:45 or in gamasutra 14:03:04 like a birds-view on the generation stuff 14:03:14 the pcg wiki is quite good 14:03:23 Dwarf Fortress has awesome world-generation system augmented by crazily detailed physics engine 14:04:05 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:14 Quadrescence [~Quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:16 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:04:16 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:04:39 *p_l|uni* can't recall a more detailed engine in any computer game 14:04:50 p_l|uni: yeah, the stats of dead people and number of heroes emerged during the world generation always amused me 14:05:25 jdz: it's even better now that the battle system simulates physics including internal organs 14:06:06 the "hung him by his entrails" battle effects were... interesting 14:06:09 p_l|uni: i'm pretty sure when i played the internal organs thing was there 14:06:11 -!- daniel-kun is now known as daniel 14:06:25 probably a year ago 14:06:59 yeah, that was around the time they started introducing that... Haven't checked the latest changes :) 14:07:53 i'd probably play it again if it did not rely on keyboard with numeric keypad 14:08:00 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host86-150-86-58.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:03 which is not there on my laptop 14:08:41 but at least they have linux version now 14:08:43 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-50-92.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:08:43 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 14:09:11 there was a lot of work done on the input engine (it was possibly a worse case than the graphics engine) 14:10:39 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 14:13:04 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:14:05 netytan_ [~netytan@host86-175-234-113.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:13 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 14:16:24 -!- netytan [~netytan@host86-175-234-108.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:16:24 -!- netytan_ is now known as netytan 14:17:45 troussan [~user@mobile-166-137-140-205.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:57 -!- bougyman [bougyman@pdpc/supporter/gold/bougyman] has left #lisp 14:21:36 -!- troussan [~user@mobile-166-137-140-205.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:57 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:23:26 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:23:34 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:27 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-218.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:24:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:26:47 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-63-69.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:10 Sikander [~userid@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 14:30:18 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:14 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:32:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-31.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:35:36 -!- Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:55 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.50.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:38:46 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.59.151] has joined #lisp 14:39:20 makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has joined #lisp 14:40:27 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:42:08 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp3255.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:42:10 Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:29 -!- churib [~churib@dslc-082-082-126-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:49:00 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:48 i don't seem to fully understand how *arg* works in common lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/117158 my function works as intended when run by itself, but when run from commandline, it's not random. why? 14:50:34 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:50:40 because you use the same random state? 14:50:57 xavierHart [~xavierHar@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has joined #lisp 14:51:09 -!- benny [~benny@i577A37B2.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:51:10 the random state doesn't change itself? 14:51:27 no 14:51:40 ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@213.246.124.107] has joined #lisp 14:53:29 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@11.86-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:53:38 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:53:41 how do i make a random state, if random isn't random? 14:53:53 clhs make-random-state 14:53:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_rnd.htm 14:54:14 very unintuitive name 14:54:16 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:14 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [] 14:57:31 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:28 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 15:00:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-219-135.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:01:18 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:20 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@218.82.79.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:02:20 i'm not seeing how i can make this work as i wish 15:02:57 make-random-state doesn't seem to solve it, unless i store the random-state somewhere from the last run of the program 15:03:08 which isn't really desirable. 15:03:22 just do (setf *random-state* (make-random-state t)) before you use random? 15:03:25 am I missing something? 15:03:32 -!- xavierHart [~xavierHar@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:03:36 i'll try that 15:03:41 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:03:53 benny [~benny@i577A25CA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:17 -!- makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:05:04 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:05:18 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 15:05:18 success :) thanks a lot 15:05:21 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-44.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:06:04 xavierHart [~xavierHar@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has joined #lisp 15:07:28 sadeness [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has joined #lisp 15:07:57 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:10:21 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:34 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:13:45 horze [~kim@c-601172d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:17:24 smanek [~smanek@adsl-71-147-52-95.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:17 -!- horze [~kim@c-601172d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 15:21:04 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:21:49 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:27:54 sadeness_ [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has joined #lisp 15:28:14 -!- sadeness [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:28:56 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 15:28:58 -!- aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has quit [Quit: be free!] 15:29:11 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:30:27 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 15:32:25 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e198-212.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 15:32:30 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@e198-212.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Client Quit] 15:34:43 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:46 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:09 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host86-150-107-165.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:37 -!- tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:35:59 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-150-86-58.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:35:59 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 15:36:28 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:38:50 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.10/20101028123456]] 15:39:16 -!- gigamonk` [~user@cpe-76-167-162-97.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:45 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host86-147-29-101.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:19 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-150-107-165.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:19 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 15:40:53 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:40:54 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:10 tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:17 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:45:21 -!- Sikander [~userid@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:45:29 mega1: is this the result of the battles of the final submissions? http://ai-contest.com/rankings.php 15:45:33 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu182.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:45:57 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-174-192.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:45:58 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:46:10 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:12 attila_lendvai: it's going until thursday 7:00 CET 15:46:32 so the results are not final yet 15:46:56 I pushed the sources though. 15:47:07 mega1: but is that list the current state of the final battle? or will they only publish the results at the very end? 15:47:09 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:32 Heh. 200+ points? Seems like lisp has quite a lead. 15:47:41 this is the current state 15:47:45 well, mega has quite a lead... :) 15:48:13 -!- ASau [~user@95-28-62-161.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:18 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:23 I'm on a 27 game winning streak :-o 15:48:24 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:25 mega1: great! we keep on cheering from the spectators' seats! :) 15:48:44 yeah, I was looking for a loss to check out and had to page back... :) 15:48:48 ASau [~user@95-28-62-161.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 15:49:11 mitre_ [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 15:49:38 bayeselo tells me that the "likelihood of superiority" is in the 0.9999 range between rank 1 and 2 so I sleep better now 15:50:34 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:50:38 -!- mitre_ is now known as mitre 15:51:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 15:52:00 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:52:37 *fogus`* what is it about Java projects that makes them start huge!? 15:54:25 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:54:27 mega1: I can't clone repository micmac on your site. Git says: warning: You appear to have cloned an empty repository. 15:55:59 -!- netytan [~netytan@host86-175-234-113.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:56:50 mega1: Thanks for releasing the code to your bot ... I'm having a great time looking at it. 15:57:48 reb`: I didn't realize the code was released. Link? 15:58:04 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc2-dals3-0-0-cust1263.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:58:23 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:58:28 http://quotenil.com/git/?p=planet-wars.git 15:58:38 -!- smanek [~smanek@adsl-71-147-52-95.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 15:59:53 reb`: let me try micmac 16:00:13 hrm, right 16:00:40 netytan [~netytan@host81-141-51-244.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:51 reb`: Thanks. 16:02:48 reb`: fixed 16:03:06 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 16:03:34 -!- fred-o [~user@spix-clav01.driften.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:05:58 Thanks! I just added micmac to my slurp database of public Lisp repositories. 16:06:35 -!- ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@213.246.124.107] has left #lisp 16:10:01 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:32 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-172.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:14:16 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:14:16 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-168-236-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:15:20 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:15:23 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:16:39 echo-area [~user@123.120.239.30] has joined #lisp 16:17:17 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:18:14 jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has joined #lisp 16:22:15 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:19 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:28 varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:23:41 -!- marijnjh [~user@p5DDB1A89.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:24:40 -!- jweiss_ is now known as jweiss 16:29:30 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:29:56 how many people did write that planet-wars code ? 16:30:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:31:45 I did. It's not long. But what cannot be seen is how costly those lines were. 16:32:11 oh, just one person ? 16:32:21 and how much time did it cost you ? 16:33:19 I dare not think of that. The electricity bill should be a real eye opener too. 16:34:26 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:35:31 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:36:44 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:36:54 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:37:10 churib [~churib@dslc-082-082-126-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:33 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:55 gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:49 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:43:20 mega1, Did you use a neural net, or genetic algorithm? 16:43:47 When you mention electric bill I am picturing 24/7 training runs 16:43:48 no, nothing special 16:44:26 that's right, but strength tests instead of training runs 16:46:00 feklee [~feklee@212.145.140.202] has joined #lisp 16:48:31 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:32 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:34 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-172.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:50:03 schmo [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:54:19 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qnvvbnellcaeaydp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:55:58 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.200.120] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 16:56:26 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:59:56 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@ip-89-176-11-41.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:01:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.42] has joined #lisp 17:02:46 Bronsa [~bronsa@host45-10-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:03:32 -!- netytan [~netytan@host81-141-51-244.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: netytan] 17:03:54 carlocci [~nes@93.37.200.120] has joined #lisp 17:04:09 unicode [~user@95.214.63.247] has joined #lisp 17:05:18 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.240.185] has quit [Quit: sellout] 17:05:58 erm, how do you deal with the case, where the implementation is free to ignore hash-table-rehash-treshold and such ? 17:06:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:14 or do leave it all to the exception handling system of the underlying implementation when something goes wrong ? 17:09:08 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-179-41.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:09:25 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-252-193.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:10:25 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:36 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 17:10:52 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-252-193.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:10 netytan [~netytan@host81-141-55-155.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:16 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.75.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13:30 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13:47 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-252-193.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:13:54 schme [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:13:54 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 17:13:54 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 17:14:03 -!- schmo [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:15:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 17:17:21 is there an assert in lisp ? 17:17:22 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:17:29 homie: ASSERT ? 17:18:51 urandom__ [~user@p548A4DDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:55 lol 17:20:44 say, you set hash-table-rehash-treshold but the implementation is ignoring it, since it's free to do that 17:20:57 how do you ensure that it does not ignore it ? 17:21:46 or how do you ensure that you at least get informed in case it ignored it, since you aren't allowed maybe to alter it's behaviour in that case or such 17:22:00 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-xywoeaxuifxvhhyb] has joined #lisp 17:22:02 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 17:22:36 How is it being ignored? 17:24:45 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 17:26:17 mitre_ [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 17:26:17 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:26:22 -!- mitre_ is now known as mitre 17:26:26 homie: apropos finds me a sb-impl::hast-table-rehash-trigger . Maybe this is good for you. 17:26:41 ah 17:27:20 or maybe that is something completely different. 17:33:09 -!- echo-area [~user@123.120.239.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:48 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:33 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 17:40:16 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:52 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:43:16 -!- feklee [~feklee@212.145.140.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:44:14 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:45:35 Are cores generated by sbcl platform dependent? 17:47:45 no 17:49:00 are they portable ? 17:49:04 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 17:49:51 homie: no 17:50:15 thanks 17:50:25 they are portable in the sense that they work with the binary runtime that generated them and if you ship them with that and all necessary dynamic libs, it should work 17:50:44 certain kernel patches and their configuration can stop SBCL from working, however 17:50:54 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:50:59 ok 17:51:29 is there any ongoing work on that matter ? 17:51:37 *p_l|uni* used for some time a shell account on a server where only SBCL 1.0.18 (after special patches) worked 17:51:42 or is it a def. not solvable thing ? 17:52:28 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-174-192.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:52:46 homie: the cores have explicit addresses inside, including addresses to stuff that is inside the C part of the runtime (AFAIK), and are not relocatable (in the mainline) 17:52:58 aah 17:53:05 kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.162.172] has joined #lisp 17:53:16 there were patches for SBCL (ca. 1.0.18) which allowed for relocatable cores and incremental allocation of address space 17:53:28 and ? 17:53:36 why did they remove it ? 17:53:48 homie: they never went into mainline SBCL 17:53:52 oh 17:53:55 eheh 17:54:01 what a shame 17:54:51 homie: there are some other interesting abandoned projects, including the one that deployed SBCL-compiled applications using memory dumps of parts of the core which could be then loaded back 17:55:02 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:55:29 what were the reasons ? 17:55:31 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:55:46 why were they abaondened ? 17:56:02 or are 17:56:19 homie: FASL aren't that fast. As for being abandoned... well, I guess people lost will or time or had more important/interesting stuff to work on 17:57:06 hmmm ok 17:57:09 the sb-dump based had the issue that it also required the exact same core to run as the one that compiled it. OTOH, it allowed to generate small binaries 17:57:12 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 17:57:13 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-196-78.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:58:14 ok are there any work on improving FASL itself ? 17:58:32 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:36 no idea 17:59:26 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.59.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:59:46 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.59.151] has joined #lisp 17:59:59 holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has joined #lisp 18:01:06 jdz [~jdz@host4-14-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:01:30 gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 18:02:18 aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:04:08 -!- holycow [~new@64.151.208.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:14 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@72.14.179.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:04:45 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:53 -!- netytan [~netytan@host81-141-55-155.wlms-broadband.com] has left #lisp 18:07:55 -!- onteria|i7 [~onteria@rrcs-64-183-118-2.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:51 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: uh oh...] 18:09:06 cl-mongo is taking too much time to find 18:09:23 but the mongo js shell is doing super fast :( 18:10:23 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 18:13:48 onteria|i7 [~onteria@rrcs-64-183-118-2.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:21 guille_ [~user@138.Red-88-22-70.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:46 -!- mpedersen [~user@70.90.14.154] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:14:51 hi 18:16:30 brandonz [~brandon@c-76-102-192-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:44 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:19:01 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:19:18 Could you use Thrift to establish a protocol between a java and a CL app or which alternative could you pick? 18:20:49 kdas_: so there's hope! ;) 18:21:06 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:21:07 json not ? 18:21:33 derrida, yes and frustrates me :) 18:22:31 homie: I guess so, there's a json-rpc library. have you used it? 18:22:36 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 18:22:55 nope, i heard of json yesterday only 18:23:10 no i read what it is about yestertday only 18:23:28 i heard of it sometime before, i don't know when exactly 18:23:53 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:00 the -not so good thing- i guess would be the loss of code generation for the messages (specially for java) 18:25:31 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:27:18 derrida, btw, you ever used cl-mongo ? 18:30:41 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:31:08 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:48 guille_: Might not fit your needs, but do you know ABCL? It's a CL implementation running on the JVM so you can link Java and Lisp code 18:32:27 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:11 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:23 tcr: I've seen it in cliki. But I'd prefer to stick to sbcl and have an api with a schema because the client may not be java only 18:36:33 guille_: I'd be happy to help you out with it. 18:38:18 guille_: So how does the necessary communication between the two parts look? 18:38:23 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:37 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [] 18:38:40 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38:43 is it just data transfer? 18:38:49 what kind of data? 18:38:55 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:29 What kind of portability (inter-os) do you need? 18:39:31 I can't quite figure out how to get += in parenscript - any tips? 18:40:38 seangrove: INCF ?? 18:40:49 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:50 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-234-37.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 18:41:04 reb`: wow. thank you. 18:41:09 Makes a lot of sense :) 18:42:00 Right now I've a Thrift IDL as an rpc service with structs. I guess there'd no be problems with the encoding (same arch.). I'd pass blobs in order but for flexibility the service fits better (and no to implement it myself) 18:42:40 Sebas` [~user@host50.190-228-111.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:42:45 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:43:15 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 18:43:23 ehu: have you used de.setf.thrift? I'm stuck with the service definition (in lisp), not sure how to layout the methods and which package is which (-implementation and -response) 18:44:28 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:46:19 drdo [~user@194.210.228.33] has joined #lisp 18:46:38 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:47:26 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:39 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:42 Hoornet [~kvirc@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 18:48:37 rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-61-201.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:50 -!- Hoornet [~kvirc@93.103.24.156] has quit [Client Quit] 18:48:51 -!- rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-61-201.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:49:16 rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-61-201.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:42 -!- rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-61-201.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:49:53 Also, I can't seem to get parenscript to output in all caps 18:50:06 Which is a problem for JSON.parse, since it's not lowercase :) 18:50:47 rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-61-201.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:50 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:51:00 seangrove: There's syntax for getting the capitalization right. 18:51:38 -!- rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-99-164-61-201.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 18:51:38 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-63-69.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:51:51 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:52:11 I don't think so 18:52:32 http://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/reference.html#section-symbolconv lists * and - 18:52:36 -!- sadeness_ [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has left #lisp 18:52:37 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:41 seangrove: I think it has to do with underscore. 18:52:54 heh, I'll give it a try :) 18:53:08 ... or the character following "-" is always capitalized. 18:53:09 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 18:53:54 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.162.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:54:05 ah, (ps:@ *J-S-O-N parse) 18:54:13 Yes, that's it ... -m-i_init is translated to MI_init. 18:54:16 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:54:31 That looks... interesting :) 18:54:46 Owell, it works :) Thanks! 18:59:45 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.227] has joined #lisp 19:01:48 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:02:04 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B174.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:09 ASau` [~user@95-28-62-161.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:02:16 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:02:23 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:02:26 -!- ASau [~user@95-28-62-161.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 19:02:26 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B174.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 19:02:26 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 292 seconds] 19:02:31 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:44 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 19:05:05 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-123-181.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 19:05:47 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-123-181.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:06:13 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:07:04 nostoi [~nostoi@88.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:33 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@88.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 19:10:44 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 19:12:51 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:13:11 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-90-12.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:14:10 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-90-12.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 19:14:10 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:18 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-123-181.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:18:30 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:24 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host45-10-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:25:35 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:25:50 Bronsa [~bronsa@host45-10-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:26:05 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:26:38 -!- reb` [~user@nat/google/x-psxffkxwqwcjqeev] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:46 brown [~user@nat/google/x-aazxmhxqwlqbbthl] has joined #lisp 19:26:52 -!- brown is now known as reb 19:27:25 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:27:47 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117176 19:27:55 any ideas how to get rid of the notes? 19:27:57 SBCL 19:28:12 x is a double-float 19:28:26 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:14 -!- stokachu` [~user@nat/redhat/x-wpgghpeihurctftg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:20 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-156-0-237.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:07 -!- guille_ [~user@138.Red-88-22-70.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:37:45 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-147-29-101.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:37:45 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 19:38:56 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.76] has joined #lisp 19:39:59 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:40:17 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 19:40:32 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 19:42:27 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host45-10-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:44:36 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:32 Guthur: The notes are telling you that truncate is slow because it doesn't know the range of x. If it new, then a faster truncate method could be used. So, you need to do something like (declare (type (double-float ) x). 19:47:00 ah, cheers rtoym, did not know that 19:47:05 what about the boole note 19:47:16 Well, only if there are such bounds. If not, you either live with the note or muffle the notes. 19:48:10 what do you guys think about clojure? or what other route would you recomoned to making a lispy web app? 19:48:32 Samething. Since x is "unbounded", the first result of truncate is also unbounded. Thus, boole can't use a fast word-sized logand. 19:48:37 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 19:48:56 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:48:56 nickaugust: Common lisp? :-) 19:49:07 *rtoym* doesn't do web apps, lisp, clojure, or otherwise. 19:49:10 ok, I'll see if there is a work around 19:49:25 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 19:49:27 nickaugust: I'd be more interested in clojure if I didn't have to learn so much java to use it 19:50:22 yeah i hear the JVM is a PITA to maintain and has compatibility issues between versions. 19:50:53 im new to lisp and just wondering if i should be learning clojure instead of CL. allthough i guess i know what answer to expect here 19:50:58 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 19:51:05 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:08 -!- churib [~churib@dslc-082-082-126-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:51:20 :) 19:51:33 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:51:46 nickaugust: I'm new to Lisp too, and I would pick CL because it's been for longuer 19:51:47 -!- e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:52:23 nickaugust: ask ten different language channels which language to use and see how many answers you get :) 19:52:28 francogrex [~user@109.130.189.103] has joined #lisp 19:52:46 dlowe: i know! insanity! :) 19:52:50 R - the thinking man's webapp language! 19:54:54 nickaugust: i started learning clojure as my first lisp... but i found java to the be the main issue as well. I think its a good idea in theory. in practice java librarys can be painful to work with 19:55:33 now i am learning CL 19:56:23 hmm, in a macro, I can't seem to get || to work properly 19:56:32 (OR (-> "REV" DOC) (-> 'REV DOC) (-> '|,field| DOC) (-> '|_,field| DOC)) 19:57:22 Not hugely important right now, but I am curious about how to do that 19:57:28 seangrove: if field is a symbol, you'll need to do ,(intern (format nil "_~a" field)) 19:57:47 and just ',field 19:58:06 what db do you guys prefer to get persistance with CL? 19:58:21 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:50 nickaugust: depends on the application, no? 19:59:20 My IRC bot uses exclusively files with s-expressions 19:59:34 not a huge amount of data..no need for scaling or replication or anthing. just a simple elegent way to achieve persistance s-expes 19:59:51 dlowe: how do you serialize the files? 19:59:57 nickaugust: (print data) 20:00:11 -!- xavierHart [~xavierHar@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:20 hmmm id better learn some more CL ;) 20:00:50 -!- Guest96643 is now known as dean 20:01:14 nickaugust: if the data is represented in non-structs and non-classes, you can generally use PRINT and READ on them just fine 20:01:20 -!- dean is now known as Guest97330 20:01:22 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 20:01:58 xavierHart [~xavierHar@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has joined #lisp 20:03:13 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:03:19 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.189.103] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:05:17 entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-nskoldrpoccynsrp] has joined #lisp 20:05:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:15 mrSpec [~Spec@89.75.35.251] has joined #lisp 20:08:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89.75.35.251] has quit [Changing host] 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HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:15 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-101.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:05:15 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:06:25 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:27 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:07:38 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:27 -!- fogus` [c6970d0f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.151.13.15] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:10:43 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:13:02 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 21:14:00 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:15:16 How do I get WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING to accept an element type? (with-output-to-string (s :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) ... doesn't work. 21:15:22 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 21:15:37 clhs with-output-to-string 21:15:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm 21:15:52 Neither does (with-output-to-string (s nil :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) ... 21:15:59 I'm lookingat the CLHS page. 21:17:18 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:22 The output stream is a character stream. That usually means the element type is a subtype of character, and (unsigned-byte 8) isn't a subtype. 21:17:45 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b11wi-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:17:51 Hmmm. But SBCL complains about an odd number of keyword arguments. 21:18:03 Is it taking nil as the end of the list? 21:18:21 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:18:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:19:46 (with-output-to-string (s nil :element-type 'character) (print "hello" s)) works for me. 21:19:51 on cmucl. 21:20:05 easyE: I don't think you can make strings with an element-type that isn't subtypep character 21:20:35 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-218-190.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 21:20:35 works for me too, on sbcl 21:21:24 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:21:29 Curiously, cmucl accepts an element type of unsigned-byte 8. That seems not right. 21:22:05 easyE: which version of sbcl are you using? using (with-output-to-string (s nil :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))), my sbcl complains that #() isn't of type simple-string 21:22:10 Ah. My mistake: the error I was seeing was from the body of the WITH-OUTPUT-STREAM-MACRO. 21:22:11 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:22:13 no uneven keyword arg things 21:22:19 hah 21:22:22 Right. False bug. 21:22:30 antifuchs: you in CA yet? 21:22:34 yeah! 21:22:43 Cool. Congratulations. 21:22:46 thanks ((: 21:22:53 Wien misses you. 21:23:04 I miss Wien, too (: 21:23:17 but I'm coming back on the 19th, for christmas 21:23:41 Not sure what I'm doing for Christmas. Probably go down to Klagenfurt. 21:24:23 yeah, I plan to spend most of the time with family in Burgenland, too 21:25:01 The 18 month year old, cute as a button daughter is in much demand from family ;) 21:25:28 hah, who would have thought (: 21:26:23 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:26:37 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:26:40 -!- Guest97330 [~deanz@64.241.87.62] has quit [Quit: I quit the quitting] 21:27:07 Well, ABCL seems to enable '(unsigned-byte 8) as a string :element-type. Why should this be a bug (and not mean "use a string encoding of 8 bit bytes"? 21:28:26 easyE: unsigned-byte and character are disjoint types? 21:29:06 easyE: See glossary item for /string/ 21:29:07 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:31 tcr: ok. That makes more sense. 21:30:09 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-213.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:19 antifuchs: which parts of ACL do you hack on? 21:30:33 *ehu* just started with ACL8.2-desktop for a project of ~6 months 21:30:34 right now, allegrocache, allegrograph, and clim 21:30:39 nice (: 21:30:52 I'll be expanding into the slime interface soon, too (: 21:31:27 mostly Common Graphics; applications hasn't had maintenance since 6.1 and the packages seem to be re-organized quite a bit. 21:32:06 yeah, 6.x is really pretty old (: 21:32:32 heh! you tell me! I couldn't even find migration docs anymore... 21:32:39 but it seems we're getting there. 21:33:01 fortunately, ANSI CL and Common Graphics are "mature technology" :-) 21:33:06 ie totally dead in the watter. 21:33:08 water 21:33:40 hahaha 21:33:43 I'm not expecting much more than package restructuring to be on my way to porting to 8.2 21:33:57 well, acl is progressing. we're getting smp next year (: 21:34:11 as in real smp? 21:34:15 yeah 21:34:19 nice. 21:34:26 cg should be mostly compatible, though 21:34:47 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:06 I'm working on an app which applies a calculation to paths in a graph; the independent paths could be calculated on separate cores. 21:35:18 nice (: 21:35:28 I'll put you on my list of people to prod when we have a beta out (: 21:35:46 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:50 and with a quad-core i7, that would mean 3x as fast. 21:35:50 for now, try not to use process-wait without a gate and stuff (-; 21:35:55 nice ((: 21:36:01 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010da8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:50 yea! gimme a yell. when we're still on the assignment, we'll surely evaluate the timesavings we can achieve. 21:37:01 awesome 21:37:10 hi 21:38:10 -!- onteria|i7 [~onteria@rrcs-64-183-118-2.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:38:50 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:39:50 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:40:40 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:40:44 -!- novaburst [~novaburst@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:43:13 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-219-12.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:27 -!- y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-219-12.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:44:22 what's the proper way of issuing a defconstant? I have a file here which reads approximately like (defconstant foo '(bar baz)) and it can't be compiled twice. 21:44:39 prxq: (defparameter +foo+ '(bar baz)) 21:44:42 y3llow [~y3llow@111-240-220-12.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:45 best way to define a constant :) 21:44:49 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-220-12.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:56 -!- bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:59 valium97582 [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 21:45:26 prxq: I think Fare had a defconstant* macro that allows the use of a :test argument to determine if the constant value didn't change 21:45:41 you should use defconstant-equal if you need it to be constant with-regards-to-equal instead of eql, the default. 21:45:42 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:42 as they are, defconstant forms need values that are EQL to what they originally were 21:45:47 e.g. http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.slime.devel/6067 21:45:48 hm, right. Additionally, it is a list, so this thing is unlikely to depend on pipeline voodoo or so... 21:45:51 oh yeah, that. 21:46:35 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:38 I think I'll go with defparameter or even defvar 21:46:48 Kerrick [~Kerrick@a17-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 21:47:24 "Cannot proclaim a constant variable special" 21:47:40 well, ok, big red button with this 21:47:56 ,r-i-l :) 21:50:21 sykopomp: hey cool. Didn't know about that :-) 21:52:00 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@a17-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:52:04 Norbert_L [~Andrel@cpc11-bagu10-2-0-cust302.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:52:38 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067132.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:52:38 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-003.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:54:25 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:35 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:55:43 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:56:53 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-218-190.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:56:56 has anyone perchance gotten rtoy and rfatemans' octuple precission arithmetic to run on sbcl? 21:57:27 mitre [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 21:57:39 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:26 prxq: I think it should run. I think someone made it work. (And it's actually quad-double precision.) 22:01:33 hi rtoym :-) I just found a project page on oct on common-lisp.net 22:01:54 er, quad double, you are right 22:03:23 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-218-190.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 22:04:46 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:05:08 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-213.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:24 it's even in quicklisp. 22:05:30 and it works 22:06:18 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:42 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 22:06:51 -!- sdsds is now known as peoplehater 22:08:08 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-xywoeaxuifxvhhyb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:14 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-44.dyn.columbia.edu] has left #lisp 22:10:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl4E5C0376.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:11:26 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 22:11:54 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:11:56 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 22:16:19 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16:38 rtoym: this is very cool. 22:17:25 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:01 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:18:21 -!- huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:23 huangjs` [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 22:20:56 ntd` [~user@daneel.cc.gt.atl.ga.us] has joined #lisp 22:23:46 -!- ntd [~user@daneel.cc.gt.atl.ga.us] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:33 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:27:36 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-003.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:28:03 What do you need quad-doubles for? 22:28:22 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-218-190.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:40 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-196-78.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:46 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-151-8.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 22:32:09 rtoym: I am experimenting with the numerical stability of some algorithms. I want to use quad-doubles to obtain some information on the actual size of the effects in practice 22:32:30 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33:45 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:35 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 22:35:42 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:34 Cool. 22:36:59 prxq: If you want even more precision, you can access maxima's bigfloat library directly from lisp. 22:37:04 jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has joined #lisp 22:37:11 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has left #lisp 22:38:00 a... ha. That's an idea. Well I hope quad floats make a difference. Although if not, that'd be quite a discovery :-) 22:41:24 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-16-192.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:41:34 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-003.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:43:40 Kerrick [~Kerrick@a17-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 22:44:05 Maxima now has a bigfloat (lisp) package that lets you write things like (* x (sqrt y)) and that will do bigfloat arithmetic. It's pretty slow, though. quad-doubles (oct) should be much faster. 22:44:11 Even for the same precision. 22:48:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-112-231.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:48:15 64 digits should be enough for everyone! ;-) 22:50:22 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:40 Heh. 22:50:56 -!- bandu is now known as coyo 22:52:08 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:53:06 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@a17-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:53:54 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-16-192.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:55:15 -!- xavierHart [~xavierHar@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:56:32 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:58 I am getting SBCL notes regarding -> doing float to pointer coercion (cost 13) 22:58:25 any obvious solutions to this? 22:58:32 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:06 -!- firecrow8 [~fcrow@69.38.169.34] has left #lisp 22:59:12 They are all coming essentially from primitive operations 22:59:55 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [] 23:00:12 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:25 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-151-8.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:00:50 Guthur: normally you will only get them for return values of functions. Is that the case? 23:01:05 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255513.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:01:11 aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:01:15 prxq, In a number of the instances, yes 23:01:41 I have set them to be inline though, if that makes a difference 23:01:57 then there isn't terribly much you can do about it. There is some with-compilation-unit voodoo that might help in some cases 23:02:14 Guthur: that should make a difference, I think. 23:02:52 another alternative is to have one large (labels ...) construct for all the important ops. 23:03:30 eek, 23:03:32 Might be worth investigating though 23:04:07 varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 23:04:26 Guthur: many performance problems can be best solved by patience :-) 23:04:47 -!- Borbus_ [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:04:52 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:05:26 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 23:05:28 cheers prxq 23:06:09 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:06:19 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:54 kanru [~kanru@118-168-236-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:36 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-112-231.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:08:39 Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:09:15 drdo [~user@194.210.228.33] has joined #lisp 23:09:43 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:10:11 -!- nmg [~nick@dsl78-143-209-70.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:11:09 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-53-221.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: jconrad] 23:11:30 jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-53-221.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:40 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-53-221.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:15:53 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067132.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:18:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:19:22 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:20:48 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010da8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:22:22 jcw_ [~jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:23:15 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:23 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:24:35 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:13 -!- jcw_ [~jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has left #lisp 23:25:22 jcw [~jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:27:08 -!- replete_ [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:28:46 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:28:55 replete [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:52 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:32:36 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 23:33:42 -!- replete [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:34:07 vowyer [~vowyer@OL85-74.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 23:35:38 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:43:57 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 23:44:17 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-198-31.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:56 -!- moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@CMU-416743.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:22 jeti [~user@p548EBAEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:54 -!- jcw [~jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has left #lisp 23:53:58 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:54:18 jcw [~jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 23:54:23 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4DDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:37 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:56:58 -!- drdo [~user@194.210.228.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:59:49 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #lisp