00:00:25 They'd run stumpwm, of course. 00:01:05 yeah, well for me, i have exactly zero commercial pressure to code anything for money so i can pretend that some day i will code up my great replacement for photoshop and build an xserver style back end for delivering lisp applications over an http style protocol 00:01:11 then i wake up :) 00:01:36 holycow: What's wrong with gimp? 00:01:46 nothing :) i use it every day 00:02:04 holycow: Might as well just wait for python to turn into a lisp and you're half way there. 00:02:17 __no__ 00:02:18 hehe :) 00:03:23 It will be called Lispy, it will be cute. 00:03:32 meh 00:03:49 why reinvent what was perfect 40 years ago? or whenever the last hyperspect was finalized 00:04:08 holycow: You claim CL is perfect? 00:04:34 here we go again 00:04:38 i claim nothing, i'll just get back to humbly reading up on the clxs project 00:04:44 fasten your seatbelts :p 00:05:18 kenanb: I wasn't making a claim one way or another. I'd simply say the fact that there are entirely too many implementations of CL can be considered a disadvantage. That's all. 00:05:31 i think that is wrong 00:05:50 that is as wrong as saying that there MUST be ONLY ONE linux in order to make it succesffull in the marketplace 00:05:59 which wrong on so many levels one hardly knows where to begin 00:06:20 it's as wrong as complaining about how many new languages are invented every day and wondering why anyone bothers 00:06:48 lol its as wrong as me complaining about the morons in ubuntu world moving to wayland 00:06:56 :) 00:07:28 holycow: I actually don't see that as being an equivalent statement at all. Linux is, for the most part, a directed collection of branches. It's not like the Unixes where details are implemented differently in each release. Sure, you can use whatever version of Linux you want, but it's derived from the same specs. 00:07:35 mek||malloc: i didn't mean that you will start trolling, i meant some conversations are able to start trollish discussions automatically :) 00:08:00 well you can make the same argument about different lisp implementations 00:08:36 OT stuff is on topic in #lispcafe 00:08:45 true enough, sorry! 00:08:53 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-228-153-104.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:15:47 this clxs stuff is really interesting. i found another project that is tangential to this, it was trying to specify only a protocol for service cl apps over the network with a server backend. neat, thx for the link! 00:18:01 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 00:18:20 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 00:18:38 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-lkzusolboizlbgjt] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:19:38 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:23:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:24:08 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ykedghtbkicydcru] has joined #lisp 00:24:23 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has joined #lisp 00:24:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-188.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:25:54 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 00:27:40 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-75-85-93-10.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 00:27:46 erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:28:47 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:29:13 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu246.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:32:06 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-78-43.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:31 -!- vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:34 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 00:37:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:38:43 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-194-233.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:39:33 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 00:44:56 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-124-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:45:39 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0225.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:48:53 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Quit:] 00:49:51 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:50:05 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.62.117] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:52:12 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-64-234.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:53:32 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.206.31] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:53:36 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 01:00:02 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:04 For (defstruct foo bar 3), will (make-foo) automatically set bar to default value 3 or must one specify (make-foo :bar *default-foo-bar*) ? 01:00:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:33 <|3b|> mek||malloc: looks like it is short a few parentheses 01:01:50 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-66.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:02:45 |3b|: It is?.. 01:02:56 <|3b|> (defstruct foo (bar 3)) ? 01:03:07 <|3b|> then (foo-bar (make-foo)) => 3 01:03:45 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has left #lisp 01:03:47 |3b|: Oh. From the documentation I was reading (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node169.html) that didn't seem like the case, but that makes more sense. 01:04:41 Hyperspec seems to be more clear though. Thanks. 01:04:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:04:50 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 01:08:07 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 01:08:27 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:32 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-64-234.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:11:33 danlen-1 [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:14 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 01:14:23 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 01:14:36 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:25 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-64-234.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:17:37 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-194-233.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:21:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:22:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-204-65.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:22:08 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 01:22:58 -!- danlen-1 [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:24:04 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 01:24:37 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:25:49 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:25:53 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:11 iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:38 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-11-251.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:59 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.97.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29:06 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 01:30:14 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-135-47.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:31:31 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:09 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-195.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 01:33:40 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 01:33:57 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:34:56 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-135-83.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:35:59 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 01:38:26 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:26 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:48:06 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:49:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:52:19 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 01:54:31 is alistair bridgewater nyef? 01:57:34 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:59:27 -!- sdsds is now known as Your_Face 02:02:26 Ocaso [~chatzilla@203.156.243.14] has joined #lisp 02:02:53 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:03:25 -!- Your_Face is now known as sdsds 02:04:18 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:04:24 <|3b|> does something reset slime-echo-arglist-function at random? 02:05:51 SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:57 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-145-136.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:06 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.120.135.65] has joined #lisp 02:11:16 Howdy sabalaba. 02:11:36 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 02:12:08 jsnikeris [~user@pool-98-114-175-66.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:10 Hi all, is there a built-in function to cycle a list: (cycle '(a b c d) 2) -> (c d a b) 02:13:19 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-11-251.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:13:23 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 02:14:17 jsnikeris: What do you mean cycle a list? split at an index and swap these two sublists? 02:14:26 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 02:15:09 Hmm, yah I guess that's another way to look at it 02:15:14 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:15:34 jsnikeris: You can always use a loop and collect until the index is reached... And append the cdr of the list to this collected sublist. 02:16:36 jsnikeris: Or you can recursively collect elements until the index is reached and then append the collection to the remaining elements. 02:18:57 jsnikeris: nothing built-in. 02:19:00 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:19:28 -!- vandemar [nonserviam@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:19:50 (defun cycle (list n) (append (subseq list n) (subseq list 0 n))) though. 02:21:16 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:51 ahh thanks, I was trying to do it recursively, but that's surely faster 02:22:00 vandemar [spin@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has joined #lisp 02:22:16 faster to write, for sure. 02:23:02 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 02:25:40 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:20 Can structs be defined in terms of other struct types? For example (defstruct node (blah)) (defstruct tree (root-node :type node) (child-nodes)) 02:28:43 kclifton [~kclifton@S01060026f32c2837.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:08 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 02:30:29 mek||malloc: they can, but that definition isn't valid. 02:30:58 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:30:58 mek||malloc: in that example, you'd need a :type of (or null node) 02:31:13 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:31:25 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:41 ... (root-node :type of (or null node)) ? 02:31:53 Or am I taking you literally 02:32:06 too literally. 02:32:16 a ":type" of "(or null node)" 02:32:53 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:32:57 Oh, I see. Thanks. 02:33:00 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 02:33:02 Xach: :type node *is* valid. 02:33:19 pkhuong_: Is it valid if there is no default value of type node provided? 02:33:25 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:33:43 Xach: you can't specify the type without specifying an initform. 02:34:12 ah, ok. i forgot that about structs. 02:34:23 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 02:34:25 pkhuong_: What exactly do you mean by that? 02:34:33 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 02:34:36 but even if you specify something bogus, it won't matter as long as it's always overridden with an argument of the right type. 02:35:01 mek||malloc: has (slot-name [slot-initform [[slot-option]]]) 02:35:07 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-92-180.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:06 pkhuong_: Right.. Oh, I see. So you can use (foo :type bar) without having to say (foo some-bar :type bar) 02:36:34 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 02:37:24 SBCL style would give (root-node (error "~S must be provided" 'root-node) :type node), and you can do even better by defining a constructor with a required argument for root-node. 02:37:28 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@S01060026f32c2837.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 02:40:20 pkhuong_: Given that syntax, a user would not be able to (make-foo) and then set the root-node later, right? It would force them to (make-foo :root-node some-node) 02:42:13 jeti` [~user@p54B47899.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:33 -!- jeti` [~user@p54B47899.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:40 right. Doing otherwise makes static checking less useful: you give the guarantee that the root-node is a node, but then allow the user to break that guarantee. 02:42:43 coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:19 I see, thank you. 02:43:20 You can relax the condition to ensure that the root-node is a node whenever it's read with a b-o-a constructor and &aux. 02:43:58 That's usually not a good idea. 02:45:15 holycow: yes. 02:45:19 -!- bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:46:02 -!- jeti [~user@p54B47EA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:46:08 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@77-10-231-201.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 02:46:46 -!- gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 02:48:00 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:48:44 gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 02:51:24 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 02:52:13 Is anyone having problems with clbuild? I can't get it install the default packages nor hunchentoot. 02:53:38 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 02:54:50 didi: what happens when you try? 02:55:17 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:03 pkhuong_ & Xach: Just to clarify on our previous discussion, would the form... (entry :type (or null node leaf)) be used to specify some slot can either be null, a node, or a leaf? Granted some initial value should be provided or the corresponding error caught. 02:56:05 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [Quit:  In our sky there is no limits, and masters we have none; heavy metal is the only one! ] 02:56:29 mek||malloc: that's invalid syntax. you can't omit the initform. 02:56:56 you could have (entry nil :type (or null ...)) 02:57:18 Oh, I see. But is my reasoning about (or null node leaf) correct? 02:58:04 yes. 02:58:14 Thank you very much :o) 02:58:17 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:46 Xach: Well, when I tried to `update --main-projects' it failed right from the start, saying `cvs [checkout aborted]: Name or service not known' while checking out `portableaserve/acl-compat'. Then, when I tried to update just hunchentoot, it failed with a `connection refused' from the cl-base64 git project. 03:00:12 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 03:00:44 ah yes. git.b9.com is down. 03:01:18 :( 03:01:34 didi: this is one of the reasons why i wrote quicklisp. 03:03:14 Xach: I've read news about it in the Planet. :) 03:03:19 chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-92-28-98.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:04:03 wouldn't hurt to get in touch with kmr and ask what's up, i suppose. 03:04:06 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:04:09 he might not know there's a problem. 03:05:19 Xach: I don't know them, unfortunately. But, meanwhile, I'll checkout quicklisp. 03:05:37 *Xach* emails kmr 03:07:34 -!- mek||malloc [~mek@12.230.222.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:07:53 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:08:21 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:22 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-153-50-34.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:08:57 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:09:18 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-50-34.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:09:18 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 03:12:04 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 03:12:31 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:13:09 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 03:13:13 Xach: Nice. Congratulations. Nice work. Thank you. 03:13:26 Hunchentoot up and running. 03:14:00 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:16:11 -!- gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has quit [Quit: spaaa] 03:20:51 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:21:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:25:29 Skunkwaffle [~Waffle@unaffiliated/Skunkwaffle] has joined #lisp 03:26:04 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 03:26:05 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:26:25 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:54 Somewhere between passing a list as a parameter to a function, and then sorting the list, extra values are appearing in it. Has anyone heard of anything like this before? 03:28:17 Skunkwaffle: try pasting a small test case. 03:28:31 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 03:28:49 If you can't identify the solution, odds are you've misdiagnosed the problem. 03:29:25 you're probably right about that 03:29:28 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 03:30:11 what I do know is that I tried printing the length of the parameter at the start of the function, then I sorted it and assigned it using (let), and then I printed out the length of the new variable and it was different 03:30:17 give me a sec, I'll run a test case 03:32:38 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:35:33 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.67.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:36:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:37:00 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@203-206-248-197.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:37:06 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.55.187] has joined #lisp 03:37:29 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:38:41 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-206-30-125.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:38:48 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 03:38:53 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:39:14 lol 03:39:24 wtf is TraumaPony ? 03:39:34 -!- Saturnation [~dsouth@71.169.186.227] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:39:39 What isn't it :O 03:40:04 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 03:40:17 did your algo's fail or what ? 03:40:31 sorry, still trying to come up with a case that isn't pages long 03:41:29 <|3b|> Skunkwaffle: are you calling SORT and not using what it returns? 03:41:41 I am 03:41:53 basically I have a list of lists, and I want to sort them by length 03:42:07 which doesn't seem like a very difficult thing to do 03:42:50 <|3b|> are you expecting SORT to not destroy the list you pass to it? 03:43:18 <|3b|> or passing lists that share structure with other lists you care about, etc 03:44:05 sort can destroy the list as long as it returns the proper value 03:44:12 (defun sort-lists (lists) (sort lists #'< :key #'length)) 03:45:14 I have to double check that there aren't any shared structures 03:45:32 -!- xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:45:45 but even if there were shared structures, I'd imagine that would lead to less items in the list, not more 03:46:25 less is more :) 03:46:33 Skunkwaffle: or just copy-list before sorting. 03:46:58 xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:01 kclifton [~kclifton@S01060026f32c2837.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:55 okay so I am UNION-ing a part of the list with another list earlier on 03:49:57 ah, and it looks like the other list gets sorted too 03:50:14 share structure 03:51:33 is it strange that only one extra item is appearing? Or am I just breaking it and anything's possible? 03:51:59 did you try it with stable-sort instead ? 03:52:37 no, but I'm going to try that now 03:55:01 Skunkwaffle: have you tried just copy-list ing the list to be sorted first? 03:55:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:55:35 Sometimes I think that scheme had the right idea with exclamation marks. 03:55:56 -!- xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:56:27 Zhivago: why don't I see that much in CL, even in user code? 03:57:09 Because CL doesn't have that idea. Usually is sticks an 'n' on the front of stuff. 03:57:16 pkhuong_: am I a total failure if I say no 03:57:30 But a clear distinction between destructive and non-destructive operations would be nice. 03:57:31 ... And it works 03:57:31 Skunkwaffle: nnnno? 03:57:41 Or, perhaps better, between functions and procedures. 03:57:54 xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:05 that may make you are a bit of a failure at reading, or at designing experiments. 03:58:09 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 03:58:33 copy-list shares structure 03:58:37 well, maybe 03:58:39 copy-seq does not force it 03:58:45 copy-tree does force it 03:59:00 homie: sort works on sequences; the car isn't modified. 03:59:13 the truth is, I've been programming for going on 10 years now, but I've been using lisp for going on maybe a month and half now 03:59:42 Given that it was the second time I suggested that test... 04:00:04 hmm 04:00:13 I kind of have to admit failure there then 04:00:15 but thanks 04:00:29 I'm going to guess that sharing was the issue, and that you misinterpreted the unintended mutation, or, maybe, that the list also shared structure with its contents. 04:00:29 Zhivago: what is the distinction between functions and procedures here? is it stronger than between destructive and non-destructive operations? 04:01:03 syntard: In this level it would be side-effects. 04:01:31 syntard: So, yes, it is stronger -- and some side-effecting operations are non-destructive of their operands. 04:01:56 yeah somehow sorting a list, and then sorting another list that shares some resources ends up copying some elements from one list into the other 04:01:58 s/level/context/ 04:02:09 Well, that's because the lists overlap. 04:02:23 The share a common tail. 04:02:26 there's just guarantee of no loss 04:02:38 but not a guarantee of no gain 04:02:49 lol 04:02:52 There is no guarantee of no loss. 04:02:56 Skunkwaffle: oh sure, the first call to sort can do arbitrary damage to the second list. 04:03:06 One of the lists may lose elements. 04:03:37 Well in this case it was gaining, but I'd imagine the damage would be pretty unpredictable 04:04:01 ah yep 04:04:16 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:04:40 well, other than not seeing pkhuong_'s first suggestion to copy the list, I think the real issue was just not knowing all the gotchas in lisp. 04:05:55 Yes. It is not obvious that sort is destructive. 04:06:47 thanks for helping me though. I'm glad it was something simple. 04:06:49 there's also the issue that there wasn't one, but two calls to SORT. It would have then been simple to suggest printing the lists' states between the calls to SORT. 04:07:01 totally, I didn't even think of it 04:07:31 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 04:08:26 I'd like of like to be able to use more adjectives. 04:08:38 PCMX [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:54 (value x) (function x) (procedure x) (class x), etc. 04:09:19 My grammar is broken. Need more coffee. 04:09:54 Intensity [ARPvoYnr1B@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 04:09:55 Zhivago: what for? 04:10:38 (coffee x) 04:12:44 For fixing grammar. 04:13:16 returning something for symbol x ? 04:14:26 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-124-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:29 x=cup,bowl... 04:14:42 minion: logs 04:14:49 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14:51 annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:08 gigamonkey: 04:15:26 Good morning everyone! 04:15:34 hallo beach 04:16:11 *syntard* waves 04:18:13 pkhuong_: thanks_ 04:19:14 '-g5 --> |-G5| 04:19:22 why does that have || around it and 04:19:27 '-gg5 --> -GG5 04:19:28 doesn't? 04:20:01 syntard: Ah. Sorry. So that you could say something like ((destructively sort) x) 04:20:19 Zhivago: yes! 04:21:47 that's a great idea, can lead to clear code 04:21:50 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-78-43.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:24:32 -!- az [~az@p4FE4ECA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:24:38 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:25:54 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@S01060026f32c2837.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:01 (destructively sort x) is more realistic in CL 04:26:02 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:42 zc00gii: it's a potential number 04:26:50 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:27:00 Yeah. Personally I'm working more toward: Destructively sort x. 04:27:02 so cannonical syntax for that has to be quoted 04:28:40 I've come to think that paul graham was right about 'it'. 04:29:03 rahul: in which implementation? CCL has no problem with this. 04:29:19 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:29 syntard: Depends on your read base. 04:29:42 rahul: how is it a potential number? 04:29:43 syntard: it's not a question of "having a problem" 04:29:52 zc00gii: because that's how potential number is defined 04:30:03 but it has a letter in front of it 04:30:07 syntard: it's a question of the implementation choosing to do whatever 04:30:10 what potential number has a letter in front of it? 04:30:22 zc00gii: -g5, clearly :) 04:30:26 rahul: no problem! 04:30:40 rahul: ok, what number has a letter in front of it? 04:30:48 zc00gii: There is a section in the CLHS that explains what a potential number is. I suggest you ead it! 04:30:51 zc: Depends on the base your reader uses ... 04:30:53 *read 04:30:58 beach: mm, ok 04:31:01 eheh 04:31:04 beach: did you see my bit in #lispcafe? 04:31:08 not a question of base, it's a potential floating point number 04:31:22 clhs potential number 04:31:25 zc00gii: Nope. Looking now. 04:31:40 az [~az@p5796CD2D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:18 -g5 could be a number in certain bases, but that's not why it's a potential number. it's the fact that there's a g 04:32:38 oh 04:32:40 what's special about g? 04:33:17 oh, no. it's like that for any letter 04:33:27 e, f, g are commonly used floating point separators 04:33:28 '-t5 --> |-T5| 04:33:32 but I think that was a red herring 04:33:43 there are SOME cases where that matters iirc 04:33:49 '-e5 --> |-E5| 04:33:51 hmm 04:33:54 '-g5 --> |-G5| 04:34:13 odd 04:34:15 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:34:57 read the definition of potential number... 04:35:54 "A number marker is a letter. Whether a letter may be treated as a number marker depends on context, but no letter that is adjacent to another letter may ever be treated as a number marker." 04:36:00 potential numbers do exist in clhs, go figure 04:36:03 that's why -gg5 is not a potential number 04:37:50 -!- erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 04:39:43 -gg5 is a potential number :) 04:40:19 rahul: when potential number is quoted, it shouldn't be parsed as a number? 04:40:35 Only if it's realized as a number. 04:41:10 so it's best to avoid using them as symbol names 04:42:32 Nah. You should just use escapes to force it -- like |-gg5| 04:42:47 pers [~user@75-94-194-245.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:32 Ok, I'll do that 04:43:53 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:44:40 sidh_ [c0a314e7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 04:45:32 psilord [~psilord@76.201.145.79] has joined #lisp 04:45:35 -!- psilord [~psilord@76.201.145.79] has left #lisp 04:46:18 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:36 you actually only need to escape one character of the name, so \-gg5 would be fine too 04:46:44 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-195.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:48:16 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-124-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:48:54 for obfuscation this should work great 04:53:59 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 04:55:59 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander 04:56:07 But -\gg5 wouldn't be, surely? 04:59:14 backslash in any place is ok 05:04:31 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-124-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:50 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.174.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:10:38 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-165-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:12:11 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-165-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:12:42 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:13:03 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-129.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:13:31 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:32 -!- annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:14:47 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-195.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 05:16:27 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-165-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:16:52 Raimondi [~israel@adsl-99-23-239-153.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:28 chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has joined #lisp 05:19:36 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 05:20:19 So according to the CLHS nreconc must behave as a combination of nconc and nreverse, but since nreverse doesn't have to destructively modify the list, in fact those restrictions on nreconc don't mean very much. 05:20:55 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:22:06 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-izppgxoebtbrfygy] has joined #lisp 05:22:06 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-izppgxoebtbrfygy] has quit [Changing host] 05:22:06 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:23:09 Indeed. When you need some more specific behavior, you need to implement it yourself. I had to write my own nreconc once. 05:26:30 What should (butlast '(a b . c) 0) return? (I am not asking what it returns in some specific implementation, but what the CLHS says it should return). 05:26:49 good morning all 05:26:55 hello kushal 05:27:03 all but last ? 05:27:44 (a b . 0) 05:28:03 You mean (a b . c)? 05:28:04 A copy of the list from which the last zero conses have been omitted. 05:28:07 Yes. 05:29:00 should signal an error if list is not a proper list or a dotted list 05:29:01 However, (nbutlast (copy-list '(a b . c) 0)) should return (a b). 05:29:19 homie: It *is* a dotted list. 05:29:50 and 0 is non-negative ? 05:29:50 -!- Jubb [~ghost@24-151-24-155.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 05:30:01 Yes. 0 is non-negative. 05:30:04 ok 05:30:19 So it disturbs me that nbutlast and butlast should return different things for a dotted list and 0. 05:31:04 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.55.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:31:51 That's CL for you -- a product of disturbed minds. 05:31:53 nbutlast modifies 05:31:58 And by the way, SBCL retuns (a b . c) for (nbutlast (copy-list '(a b . c) 0)) 05:32:13 sloanr [~user@75-168-232-24.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:38 homie: Yes, but there's no need for nbutlast to modify in this case. 05:32:39 yes, c becomes nil 05:32:53 homie: You speak nonsense. 05:33:01 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.42.43] has joined #lisp 05:33:12 err 05:33:16 ccl returns (a b) in both cases 05:33:30 eheh 05:33:42 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 05:33:51 OK, thanks everyone. 05:35:51 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-221-165-176.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:36:22 I'm not sure what nonsense homie was speaking. 05:36:38 (a b . nil) 05:37:09 it changes the cdr of the cons n+1 from the end of the list to nil 05:37:21 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@146-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:37:27 and that's (a b) yes 05:38:00 Zhivago: "c becomes nil" 05:38:18 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:38:28 beach: "c is replaced by nil" would be more accurate, but I don't think it was nonsense to say that. 05:38:37 sorry if i wasn't clear 05:39:20 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.88.167] has joined #lisp 05:40:01 beach: to be clhs butlast says clearly that the list can be a dotted list and that the result should be: (butlast '(a b . c) 0) --> (a b . c) 05:40:12 beach: and copy-list copies dotted-lists to, so no difference. 05:40:23 s/to be/to me/ 05:41:47 Notice that clhs last says that "If n is zero, the atom that terminates list is returned." and that butlast is defined in terms of ldiff and last. 05:42:40 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633882.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:42:40 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633882.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:42:45 pjb: The contrast is between butlast and nbutlast. 05:42:51 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 05:43:02 Argh! So yes, ldiff says that (butlast '(a b . c) 0) should return (a b). 05:43:11 eheh i get errors with thos both in cmucl and clisp now 05:44:17 ok when i pull in cop-list there they give errors, when i pull it out no erros and both give me (a b) 05:44:23 Well, nbutlast is like butlast. So it should return an equal thing. In addition it may modify the original list, cutting it. 05:44:47 ldiff and last both handle dotted lists. 05:44:54 Yes. 05:45:45 (last '(a b . c) 0) --> C 05:45:50 pjb: Where does it say that "if n is zero, then the atom that terminates the list is returned."? 05:46:01 In clhs last 05:46:06 Ah, OK. 05:46:44 pjb: So now I remember where I got the (a b) behavior of butlast from. It's from the note about ldiff. Thanks. 05:49:02 Ok, so what last is doing is treating the c in (a b . c) as a cons block, counting from zero. 05:50:18 So the one that wrote SBCL butlast and nbutlast probably had a bad hair day, because they also go into an infinite loop for circular lists. 05:51:32 *beach* should get into the habit of writing the docstring at the same time as the corresponding function, so that he doesn't have to rediscover all such details a second time. 05:53:14 -!- sloanr [~user@75-168-232-24.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:53:17 Now that I think about it, I probably already asked the exact same question here before :( 05:54:41 Yup, 10.05.12 in the Tunes log. 05:54:44 It was educational, and you are used to repeating yourself 05:55:02 syntard: Thanks! 06:00:17 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:04:39 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:04:53 reav_ [~reav_@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:06:54 phao [~phao@189.107.194.121] has joined #lisp 06:06:55 Hi 06:07:07 is there any document comparing common lisp to java and/or c++? 06:07:27 I've searched for some comparisons on the web, found some 06:07:35 but Idk... they didn't look very good 06:12:47 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:13:17 some aspects are just mentioned in LoL let over lambda, but just a scratch 06:14:00 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:14:03 there is some looping construct comparinson in PG's ansi common-lisp at the beginning 06:14:32 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 06:14:48 but i think there is no single source which will be devoted on solely that matter 06:14:49 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:15:01 -!- pers [~user@75-94-194-245.gar.clearwire-wmx.net] has left #lisp 06:16:05 s/on/to/ 06:18:21 -!- reav_ [~reav_@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:20:00 phao: What kind of comparison are you looking for? I mean, the languages are very different. 06:20:30 speed of development, built in functionalities, maybe ease of use 06:20:38 things that make sense comparing =) 06:21:04 ease of use lol 06:21:11 You won't find anything useful about ease of use and speed of development, because they are very subjective. 06:21:33 the rest then 06:22:06 executing one algorithm ? 06:22:25 what do you mean? 06:23:18 i think such comparisons are really not appropriate 06:23:44 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-opymqlirdcsmbvsz] has joined #lisp 06:24:05 phao: it does not make sense to use anything else than java for stuff java is typically used for, for mostly social reasons. so that takes care of the first comparison 06:24:19 phao: About functionalities, if you already know Java and/or C++, you will find a list of features here: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 06:24:22 since you can optimize lisp and say c to different levels, even say achieving c level optimizations in lisp, what would you expect then ? that the lisp does execute something faster than c or vice versa ? 06:24:26 phao: as for c++, well, anything is better than c++ 06:25:44 phao: a useful thing would be to ask whether lisp is suitable for whatever you want to do. but that would require you telling what you want to do, of course 06:26:26 compare how many lines of code for the same task in c and lisp ? 06:26:31 phao: Are you planning to learn Common Lisp or use Common Lisp for a project? 06:26:37 learn 06:27:10 phao: Then I recommend you just dig in and then form your own opinion after a while. 06:27:20 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 06:29:36 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:30:47 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:30:55 i think i get it now, why algo's are compared at assembly level... 06:32:42 thx people 06:37:39 -!- srolls 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to host] 07:09:28 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:10:45 lispmeister [u272@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aduqkfewdxwzfmpt] has joined #lisp 07:11:25 daniel [~daniel@p5B3278C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:39 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326E7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:11:45 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:13:32 adf [~user@adsl-190-191-39.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:00 -!- adf [~user@adsl-190-191-39.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:14:23 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 07:15:56 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:18:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:20:23 reav_ [~reav_@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:20:28 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-024-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:48 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 07:23:40 Amadiro [~whoppix@80.213.172.190] has joined #lisp 07:24:24 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:24:30 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 07:24:54 good morning 07:25:05 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:25:24 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:26:16 symbole_ [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:51 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 07:27:38 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-206-248-197.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:27:59 kaemo [~mad5ci@150.254.82.85] has joined #lisp 07:28:13 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-206-240-161.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:30:14 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:39 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.120.135.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:31:10 mvilleneuve: good morning 07:33:28 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:33:53 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:35:55 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 07:41:44 annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:12 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:43:34 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.120.133.209] has joined #lisp 07:44:24 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:48:46 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-255-13.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:11 -!- kaemo [~mad5ci@150.254.82.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:56:48 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-024-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:59:01 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-233.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:59:50 spradnyesh [~pradyus@41.65.75.135] has joined #lisp 07:59:52 hello mvilleneuve 08:03:06 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.79.62] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:03:53 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:04:00 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@41.65.75.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:04:02 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:05:33 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.194.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:05:37 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 08:13:32 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.242.93] has joined #lisp 08:13:32 beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:14:12 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:14:19 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 08:19:04 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-233.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 08:19:14 Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has joined #lisp 08:19:16 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:19:52 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:11 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-47.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:22:05 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-27-103.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:24:40 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont_ 08:25:50 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-64-234.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:25:50 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:25:56 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 08:29:34 what is the deal with clsql-fluid? weblocks-clsql depends on it, but as far as i can tell all of clsql-fluid has been merged into clsql. can I just edit the weblocks-clsql defsystem, remove the dependency and expect it to work? 08:29:57 have you tried? 08:30:44 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-89-159.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:31:01 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 08:34:53 no, but it might silently do wrong things 08:34:54 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.121] has joined #lisp 08:36:06 you can always revert your changes 08:38:54 well, the reason weblocks-clsql uses/used to use clsql-fluid had to do with thread safety, so if I just go and drop clsql-fluid I might get unpleasant surprises afterwards 08:39:10 but it does compile without the clsql-fluid 08:39:36 can it endanger your life or lives of others? 08:40:22 well, no, but those aren't the only things I take into account when making a decision 08:42:37 Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has joined #lisp 08:44:32 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:47:07 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:51:42 freddie111 [~user@150.140.230.38] has joined #lisp 08:54:59 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:56:00 -!- Maahes [~Matthew@thestudy.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:57:02 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coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:36 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-156-3-207.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:16:40 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-50-34.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:16:40 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 09:16:47 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:18:18 cmm [~cmm@109.66.207.56] has joined #lisp 09:19:32 frodef` [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 09:19:34 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xoonceabtexriwof] has joined #lisp 09:19:35 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:21:59 btw, anyone tried to fit CCL 32bit, for webapp, in 640MB of ram? 09:22:50 -!- coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:23:21 p_l|uni: Is CCL even more greedy than SBCL? 09:23:42 Guthur: no, it takes roughly half the amount of memory 09:24:11 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:12 though in this case I'd probably go with 32bit instead of 64bit to get extra space from conses being half the size 09:26:17 basically, an amazon micro instance 09:27:52 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 09:29:12 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-47.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:29:19 I only ran a small instance of SBCL/Hunchentoot, it was less memory though. 09:29:48 Most of the papers on http://www.cliki.net/Performance actually compare Lisp with other programming languages. 09:30:18 coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:38 pjb: because of the massive amounts of FUD 09:30:59 *p_l|uni* has been personally advocating Lisp at uni and at local Techmeetup 09:31:39 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu199.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:32:56 -!- bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:34:30 (Techmeetup being Beer, pizza, and tech talks at monthly meetups.) 09:35:14 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-47.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 09:37:01 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:25 tama [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:43 -!- konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:40:28 -!- coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:40:54 is "advocating" an euphemism for "being smug and weenie"? 09:41:17 stassats: no 09:41:31 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:41:43 I'm planning on preparing a nice introductory presentation some time in the future 09:42:44 what I do point is various pluses of using Common Lisp, especially since people there are not that adverse to functional programming, closures etc. :-) 09:43:13 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-153-36-160.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:43:14 Who could possibly be adverse to closures 09:43:47 i'm adverse to road closures 09:44:18 oh, yeah they're not good 09:44:19 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-156-3-207.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:44:19 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 09:46:28 gape_me_666 [52b3da0a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.179.218.10] has joined #lisp 09:46:37 Scheme > CL 09:47:20 gape_me_666: #scheme is this ---> way 09:47:32 Scheme is LISP too 09:47:36 p_l|uni: Obvious troll 09:47:49 Guthur: yeah, that's why it went on /ignore after my response 09:47:51 Very low quality trolling 09:47:57 2/10 09:48:09 sharps: Feeling generous today I see, hehe 09:48:11 drdo: what did you expect from schemers? 09:48:13 :P 09:48:21 very rude 09:48:25 stassats: That's bad trolling too 09:48:25 Guthur: btw, it would be awesome to go to some kind of Launch48 event with a lisp-oriented team 09:48:27 impertaive minds are rude 09:48:45 gape_me_666: and #haskell is this way <--- 09:48:51 to be fair, he did pick the right target, and a fairly 'hot' topic 09:48:57 he gets like 1 point for that 09:49:01 sharps: yeah, but execution... bleh 09:49:05 pretty much 09:49:06 1.5/10 at most 09:49:24 -!- symbole_ [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:49:29 Trolling is a art 09:49:58 even better when you outtroll a troll 09:50:11 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xoonceabtexriwof] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:50:29 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:51:17 p_l|uni: Looks good, launch48, bit short notice though, for me 09:51:34 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-31-85.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:09 lol 09:52:12 [12:49] gape_me_666: and #haskell is this way <--- 09:52:16 i thought i was put on ignore 09:52:18 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-145-136.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:52:18 Guthur: yeah, I'm thinking later, not now 09:52:23 weak 09:52:24 gape_me_666: you got unignored for the lulz 09:52:29 it's a slow day 09:53:25 and I'm fighting HTML and email today instead of lisp, then I need to finish a FSM in C then I can go for that filesystem (again in C) 09:54:41 and then I can start working on a webapp for a client, then there's a project for ECLS, then a CL implementation, cpu design and so on. I feel like procrastinating :) 09:54:56 p_l|uni: I'd certainly have a possible interest in a future launch48 09:55:00 I hope FSM is for Flying Spaghetti Monster! 09:55:17 because state machines are not as interesting :S 09:55:24 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-enapwvjhmqtbdfuk] has joined #lisp 09:55:47 drdo: a state machine, unfortunately 09:55:49 parsing C :) 09:56:14 hehe, it takes nearly as long to uninstall MSVS pro 2010 as it does to install it 09:56:54 Guthur: XP or Vista? :) 09:56:58 Guthur: Why would install that in the first place? 09:57:09 p_l|uni: XP 09:57:12 drdo: for nice C/C++ debugger 09:57:21 drdo: I am paid to have it, hehe 09:57:22 as well as .NET 09:57:30 -!- Raimondi [~israel@adsl-99-23-239-153.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 09:57:32 I need it for .NET 09:57:41 *p_l|uni* plans on getting MSVS2010 soon 09:57:43 And it is marginally better than monodevelop 09:57:44 That's some serious homosexuality 09:58:06 lol 09:58:42 MS wants only $100 from me for an unlimited license (all products, unlimited instances) 09:59:01 MS should die already tbh 09:59:09 I have an MSDN membership, I wouldn't have it otherwise 09:59:23 the express editions are ok though 09:59:40 drdo: MS isn't that bad, really 09:59:50 p_l|uni: Elaborate 10:00:09 Guthur: I get unlimited license as a startup through their startup accelerator programmes 10:01:19 H4ns``` [~user@pD4B9E632.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:32 Why do you guys do anyway? 10:01:34 *What 10:01:37 drdo: They are doing a lot of work to "play nice", but are slowed down by inertia inherent to giant companies. Also, I stopped bitching so much about bugs in their software when I learned more about the background of some of the stuff 10:02:00 drdo: right now, a student, freelancer and entrepreneur (but there isn't much to show for my startup yet) 10:02:54 shachaf [~shachaf@208.69.183.87] has joined #lisp 10:03:01 p_l|uni: They are doing something to "play nice" because they are on a downfall 10:03:51 They have been forcing people to use really bad stuff for a long time because of a monopoly 10:03:56 drdo: not really. Their real money is from corporate purchases, which aren't really failing 10:04:00 p_l|uni: I actually honestly don't think alot of their software is that good 10:04:42 Guthur: sure, it has their issues. But having to choose between Win7, Ubuntu or OSX... I'm not sure If I wouldn't go for Win7 :> 10:05:08 You can't possibly be serious 10:05:16 -!- H4ns`` [~user@pD4B9E4BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:05:27 what is *really bad* software is the internal shit produced and used inside various corporations... and which MS *has* to support 10:05:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-188.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:05:39 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-enapwvjhmqtbdfuk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:53 Even with ethical questions aside, i wouldn't use that stuff 10:06:13 I had seen Java-based soft that was impossible to install because of requiring exact versions of various components, including JVM (down to build number!) 10:07:00 a visiting engineer ended up apropriating one of our workstation images inside VMware 10:07:11 (I no longer work there) 10:07:34 Java really humbles me 10:07:48 I can't understand how something like Java got so popular 10:08:00 I can 10:08:10 -!- SV_Nik [~ngkhatu@99-89-3-67.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:08:11 It's horrible programming in Java 10:08:12 Java makes more sense from a "what's wrong with C" perspective 10:08:15 anyway, I have to go, be back in ~40 minutes 10:08:26 it was targeted at C and C++ programmers 10:08:28 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: cya] 10:08:28 imo, there isn't a better ide for c++ development than visual studio 10:08:28 it makes more sense from a "what's wrong with C++" over 10:08:35 I can understand why python and such got popular 10:08:40 -!- Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:08:58 SV_Nik [~ngkhatu@99-89-3-67.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:13 Java is popular because of the JVM and the portability 10:09:14 Adamant: I'd much rather use C++ than Java to be honest 10:09:15 -!- jerivard [~jerivard@c-69-181-250-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:09:40 Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has joined #lisp 10:10:00 And C++ is too difficult for most people 10:10:12 what? 10:10:19 Everything you need in C++ can be done in C, if it can't---you didn't need it. 10:10:42 katofiad: Turing completeness arguments are ridiculuos for obvious reasons 10:10:50 the problem with c++ is not that it's difficult, but that it's pointlessly difficult 10:10:54 Many people try to do fancy stuff with the template system 10:11:12 kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:11:20 -!- gape_me_666 [52b3da0a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.179.218.10] has left #lisp 10:13:39 Why didn't lisp get popular again? 10:14:23 drdo: fuck, I don't know, go ask those people not using it 10:15:02 Whats the best way to start a development project in Lisp? 10:15:18 katofiad: Get Emacs Slime, and SBCL 10:15:31 Already did it. 10:15:32 and start hacking 10:15:33 konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 10:15:40 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 10:15:44 now, open a lisp file and a REPL 10:15:52 katofiad: What is your question then? 10:16:02 and start writing code / tests / documentation. 10:17:17 How do you generate executables? 10:17:40 you generate executables after you have a working program 10:18:18 -!- mega1 [~quassel@2001:470:1f05:548:215:58ff:fe7d:773b] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 10:18:30 katofiad: You might want to read a book or something on how lisp development usually takes place 10:19:06 if you're using SBCL, lookup sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die with the :executable argument 10:19:10 You generally don't want to generate an executable except in very specific situations 10:19:22 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu199.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:34 also, check the last chapter of Practical Common Lisp, scroll down to "Delivering Applications" 10:20:44 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/conclusion-whats-next.html 10:21:03 *katofiad* scan book repo 10:21:07 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-36-160.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:22:38 u 10:23:23 katofiad: can you make more sense? 10:23:25 jerivard [~jerivard@c-69-181-250-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:50 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.51.245] has joined #lisp 10:24:06 I was looking for the book in my collection. I don't have that one. 10:24:34 sense is overrated 10:24:45 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-66.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:24:47 katofiad: It's avaliable on that page 10:24:52 -!- ASau [~user@89-178-104-155.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:02 I linked it, it's avalible online, free, from the authour's website 10:25:04 Got it, thanks :) 10:25:22 ASau [~user@89-178-188-64.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:26:17 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7557cb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:06 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:31:40 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-amxyommrauinuudg] has joined #lisp 10:32:30 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-91.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:43 -!- Ocaso [~chatzilla@203.156.243.14] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 10:41:03 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has joined #lisp 10:50:27 -!- citizen428 [~citizen42@chello213047077012.23.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:50:31 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.89] has joined #lisp 10:54:06 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.51.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:55:02 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.51.245] has joined #lisp 10:55:52 leo2007 [~leo@120.37.6.198] has joined #lisp 11:00:48 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:35 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:02:57 -!- tama [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:08:03 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-14-179.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:36 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:43 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-31-85.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:27:11 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:27:27 Yuuhi [benni@p54839B74.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:35 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-amxyommrauinuudg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:06 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35:03 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nezhhvzulmvuhchx] has joined #lisp 11:36:28 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-66.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:38:25 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:42:03 http://job.jobcrank.com/1439495/overview.aspx <--- interesting :) 11:44:03 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:44:26 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-183-67.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:44:28 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 11:44:28 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:45:55 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 11:46:54 Is there a comprehensive survey of how different CL implementations treat compile-time pro- or declamations? I know that the spec leaves it unspecified whether they persist across compile-file, so I'm interested in understanding what actual implementations do. 11:48:15 Or if nobody has tested this before, is there at least a portability library that gives access to the current settings? (E.g., on SBCL it would give sb-c::*policy*.) 11:49:02 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 11:49:02 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:49:31 -!- xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:51:26 xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:37 -!- SV_Nik [~ngkhatu@99-89-3-67.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52:28 SV_Nik [~ngkhatu@99-89-3-67.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:54:54 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:55:19 beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-91-15.w92-162.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:55:49 gadek [~konrad@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 11:57:31 -!- freddie111 [~user@150.140.230.38] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:58:19 -!- gadek [~konrad@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 11:58:50 -!- spcshpopr8tr [~user@c-71-231-165-31.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:00:48 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 12:00:48 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:04:30 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:05:25 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 12:05:26 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:05:55 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.121] has joined #lisp 12:07:54 -!- chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:08:53 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:14:02 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:15:15 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 12:15:15 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:15:21 carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.155] has joined #lisp 12:16:38 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:18:00 -!- sidh_ [c0a314e7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.163.20.231] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:19:18 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 12:19:18 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:20:17 lichtblau: for CCL there is ccl:declaration-information 12:20:23 lichtblau: like: (ccl:declaration-information 'optimize) 12:20:47 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has joined #lisp 12:21:45 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.37.6.198] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 12:21:47 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 12:21:47 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:22:46 thanks 12:22:51 stdDoubt [~XP@bl15-214-200.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:23:19 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-81-56.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:40 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-14-179.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:24:34 I am trying to use cl-glpk but when I try to execute the sample problem I get [Condition of type SB-KERNEL::UNDEFINED-ALIEN-FUNCTION-ERROR] 12:24:44 the lib is not being loaded? 12:26:29 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:26:55 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-116-96.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:34 tfb [~tfb@92.40.110.238.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:27:59 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7557cb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28:46 preyalone [81aebe7e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.174.190.126] has joined #lisp 12:28:57 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-81-56.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:29:02 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:29:14 In recent SLIME, C-u C-c C-t doesn't seem to be smart about tracing methods, labels and such. Was this functionality moved somewhere else? The ChangeLog isn't giving me any hints. 12:29:34 What's the convention for private function names? 12:29:51 What's private? 12:30:09 CLiki says %foo. n/m. 12:30:09 if you mean functions that aren't exported, I don't think there is one 12:30:30 I don't mean private in a strict OO sense, just not a function most API users would call. 12:30:32 I always thought that was for more low-level things 12:30:42 preyalone: yep 12:30:48 -!- preyalone [81aebe7e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.174.190.126] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:22 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:31:34 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:31:48 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.120.133.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:32:02 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:06 -!- konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:07 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-17-221.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:28 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-17-221.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:34:35 %foo is one convention. 12:34:50 The usual approach is to use an unexported name. 12:34:58 % really indicates 'magic'. 12:35:08 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-116-96.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:35:11 With %% being 'more magic' and so on. 12:36:05 I use % for low-level FFI function names or defstruct constructors that aren't meant for the library's client 12:37:17 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nezhhvzulmvuhchx] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:39:12 or rather, are only meant to be used by a more sophisticated constructor 12:40:13 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 12:41:55 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 12:42:10 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:37 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-48-7.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:17 citizen428 [~citizen42@chello213047077012.23.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:44:58 green` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:53 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:53 -!- green` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:46:17 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.57.220] has joined #lisp 12:46:27 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:36 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:47:50 *luis* finds the 2010-05-28 commit that moves that funcionality from slime-toggle-trace-fdefinition. 12:47:57 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-48-7.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:48:25 Any SLIMEr have any hints on the best way to augment the functionality of slime-toggle-trace-fdefinition from a contrib? 12:48:37 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-201-245.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:50 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:15 -!- reav_ [~reav_@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:49:41 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 12:50:09 I am confused about one more thing in the CLHS. On pages such as the one for ASSOC, it is allowed for KEY to be NIL, but it is not allowed for TEST to be NIL. Why is that? And does that mean that ASSOC must test whether TEST was given and signal an error if a value of NIL was given, whereas for KEY, it can rely on the default value? 12:51:06 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 12:51:06 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:51:39 At least SBCL seems to think that this is exactly what it needs to do. 12:52:44 Zhivago: then, %%% would be "voodoo magic powered by forsaken child"? :) 12:53:04 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:23 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:53:55 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.51.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:55:27 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:43 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:08 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:58:55 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.51.245] has joined #lisp 13:00:01 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-17-221.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: goodnight] 13:01:15 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:01:17 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-201-245.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:01:42 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-223-241.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:30 beach: i guess it's allowed for KEY so that you can do (defun some-find-wrapper (foo bar &key key (test #'eql)) (find foo bar :key key :test test)) without using #'identity for KEY 13:04:38 it says if test isn't supplied, EQL would be used, but for KEY it says that elements would remain the same, although IDENTITY would've worked here too 13:05:09 chp [~chp@114.113.64.91] has joined #lisp 13:06:06 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-136-84.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:57 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-223-241.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:07:08 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:19 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:11:41 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-136-84.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:11:42 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 13:11:43 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:13:29 stassats: Thanks! 13:14:03 Yet another question: is it fair to say for copy-alist that the consequences are undefined if ALIST is not a proper list? 13:14:33 *beach* really wants that annotatable CLHS. 13:14:40 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.51.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:15:26 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:15:47 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:04 reav_ [~reav_@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:17:49 fogus` [~fogusm@pool-108-18-200-57.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:52 jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-243-131.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:14 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:21:54 davertron [~ddcddavis@vt-bt-254.dealer.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:38 tcr: you there? 13:22:51 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:22:58 -!- chp [~chp@114.113.64.91] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:25:45 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-182-59.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:40 -!- tic [~tic@c83-249-196-184.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:27:48 -!- Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:31:05 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-51-156.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:22 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tfrreicuzxjrjabx] has joined #lisp 13:33:01 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander 13:33:17 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-182-59.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:34:35 -!- kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:51 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has joined #lisp 13:38:40 steven_t [~steven@unaffiliated/steven] has joined #lisp 13:38:41 hi guys 13:38:47 hello steven_t 13:38:51 how do you do BDD in a functional language? 13:39:01 you just test the outcome of each function individually, right? 13:39:13 steven_t: Binary Decision Dag? 13:39:22 behavior driven development 13:39:23 like rspec 13:39:37 seejay [~seejay@plexyplanet.org] has joined #lisp 13:39:38 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.107.167] has joined #lisp 13:39:56 -!- seejay [~seejay@plexyplanet.org] has quit [Changing host] 13:39:56 seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 13:40:06 steven_t: Well since Lisp is a multi-paradigm language, this might not be the right place to ask. 13:40:21 i cant find a FP-specific channel 13:40:24 and im using lisp anyway 13:40:31 im just using the FP aspects of it only 13:40:33 steven_t: which lisp? 13:40:37 Nu 13:40:49 but im not using any of the OOP features of it 13:40:53 only the functional ones 13:40:57 steven_t: Why would you want to impose such restrictions if you are using a language that is more general? 13:41:00 spratt` [~user@CPE0014bf3f85af-CM00080d79b684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:14 its a requirement of the task im given at my job 13:41:23 that's called Bondage and Discipline Development 13:41:28 lol 13:41:32 stassats: Heh! 13:42:16 -!- spratt [~user@CPE0014bf3f85af-CM00080d79b684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:42:29 the thing is, i relied quite a bit on #should_receive and #stub when using RSpec 13:42:42 but that assumes an object system with messages (a la smalltalk) 13:42:50 and it doesnt make any sense in FP 13:43:00 didi: I emailed Kevin about b9's git. He wasn't aware of the problem and he'll look into it soon. 13:43:08 stassats: no, for some reason that's TDD, they flipped a letter. BDD is too relaxed... 13:43:14 -!- ASau [~user@89-178-188-64.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43:19 steven_t: you need to understand BDD first before trying to do weird things with it 13:43:30 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43:32 granted im considering taking advantage of Lisp's code-is-data quality, and just analyzing the function's code to see if it calls a specific method within it 13:43:38 syntard: ok 13:43:48 ASau [~user@89-178-188-64.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:43:50 steven_t: Nu looks like Objective-C, not Lisp 13:43:54 steven_t: that's not easy as it sounds 13:43:59 stassats: I'm trying to contact tcr. He might have the only copy of my source code after I accidentally over-wrote part of my sbcl tree with the original code. 13:44:15 jdz: its a Lisp interpreter written in ObjC 13:44:29 If he does not have it, I'll try to rewrite it this weekend. 13:44:30 but it has the basic list processing features 13:44:40 stassats: i figured it probably wasnt 13:44:40 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:44:42 afk 13:44:46 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:45:28 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has joined #lisp 13:45:43 jmckitrick: that's unfortunate, but then rewrites usually tend to be better than originals 13:46:27 stassats: let's hope so. It has been a little while since I looked at it, but I still have the slime/swank side, so it will be a clean room implementation to spec :) 13:46:54 steven_t: it still looks like Objective-C (with a pimped-up syntax) 13:47:00 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-147-40-177.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:10 beach: clhs copy-alist says: "The list structure of alist is copied,". clhs copy-list which indicates that he list structure is copied too, mentions that "If list is a dotted list, the resulting list will also be a dotted list.". Moreover, clhs copy-alist wording indicates that if the alist contains a non-cons (as an element), it is kept as-is. Therefore I would expect copy-list to copy a dotted-list into a dotted-list like 13:47:10 copy-list. 13:47:51 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 13:47:51 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:48:35 tic [~tic@c83-249-196-184.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:49:12 -!- reav_ [~reav_@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:59 reav_ [~reav_@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:50:19 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.61.118] has joined #lisp 13:50:26 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:50:50 pjb: Hmm, OK, thanks. I think you might be right. 13:50:51 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 13:50:51 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:51:00 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:35 -!- CrazyEddy [~portend@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:53:36 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-91.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:53:48 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 13:53:52 jdz: im pretty sure it meets all the criteria for a lisp variant 13:55:13 steven_t: maybe, but this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp 13:55:27 where is a general lisp channel then? 13:55:37 i don't think there is such 13:55:53 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 13:56:04 sometimes there are lisp related meta discussions here 13:56:05 #lispcafe is less strict 13:56:39 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:25 jeti 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peer] 14:52:39 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 14:57:36 -!- jeti [~user@p548EB125.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:57:38 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-195.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:58:20 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-opymqlirdcsmbvsz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:00:34 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:00:36 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:01:17 didi: b9 git is fixed now. 15:01:30 didi: nobody told him there was a problem. he fixed it promptly when i did. 15:03:15 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03:25 spcshpopr8tr [~user@c-71-231-165-31.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:44 Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has joined #lisp 15:04:45 redline6561 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[~Kerrick@97-64-179-98.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:16 Xach: Nice. Although I must say that I'll stick to quicklisp by now. :) 15:27:22 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-47.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:27:29 never forget http://twitpic.com/386p8v 15:28:54 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:29:08 but where do i read it? 15:29:36 on www.quicklisp.org 15:29:42 -!- steven_t [~steven@unaffiliated/steven] has left #lisp 15:31:01 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:31:11 -!- janissary [~bleh@user-112067m.dsl.mindspring.com] has left #lisp 15:31:19 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:26 nice 15:33:44 -!- reb` [~user@nat/google/x-vcfrrolbtgxtpgku] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:58 -!- Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:34:29 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:34:55 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:35:06 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 15:35:32 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:36:16 Xach, does quicklisp make any effort to provide library versions that work together or does it simply get the bleeding edge versions from the provided repositories or something completely different? 15:36:34 azuk: It does a very light work-together test. 15:36:53 azuk: If things fail, I try to coordinate with people about getting things not-failing again. 15:37:04 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-86-117.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:04 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 15:38:50 azuk: for example, clozure 1.6 is incompatible with cl-fad, so i sent a patch to edi to fix it, and he said he'll apply it soon. 15:38:52 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-207-159.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:39:18 azuk: and alexandria recently broke projects that redefined alexandria symbols, and nikodemus cleaned up most of the projects and i alerted a few others. 15:39:42 *Xach* is anxious about cffi-uffi-compat, though 15:39:52 *Krystof* votes for Xach for BDFOY 15:40:25 One Year? 15:40:55 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_D_Foy ? 15:41:04 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:48 emptypea [~marcusp@158.223.53.73] has joined #lisp 15:43:10 I was thinking One Year, yes 15:43:26 any more would be cruel 15:43:30 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:46:12 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:47:16 Xach: there was a release a few days ago 15:47:53 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:12 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:49:48 fe[nl]ix: A release of what? 15:50:14 brown [~user@nat/google/x-rvmdhaypclkrdmky] has joined #lisp 15:50:18 b 15:50:24 -!- brown is now known as reb 15:51:11 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-86-117.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:51:54 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-139-46.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:21 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 15:53:21 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:53:24 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-152-179-32.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:37 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:54:16 Xach: cl-fad 15:54:27 Super! 15:55:08 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-147-40-177.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:55:54 jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-45-55.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:02 Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has joined #lisp 15:58:10 -!- jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-152-179-32.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:59:47 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:19 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:38 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:38 16:41:38 -!- names: ccl-logbot rme kenanb freiksenet Craig` dfox Bronsa b-man_ urandom__ MrPat _s1gma sonnym bgs100 p_l|uni slyrus_ Guthur jconrad Salamander reb Joreji emptypea kslt1 ikki schoppenhauer schme iwillig dto marijnjh araujo psilord2 danlen-1 spcshpopr8tr lolsuper_ SegFaultAX Ralith LiamH wuj churib muhdik kiuma_ CrazyEddy dlowe Athas tcleval reav_ tic LaPingvino ASau spratt` sabalaba seejay davertron Taiyou` jmckitrick fogus` jweiss_ gonzojive Jasko xyxxyyy tfb 16:41:38 -!- names: stdDoubt hlavaty carlocci beach SV_Nik Xach gemelen Yuuhi bandu dfkjjkfd jerivard gravicappa shachaf H4ns``` lanthan_afh fgump frodef` cmm whee peterhil HG` insomniaSalt rdd ehu jdz annihilator TraumaPony mvilleneuve Amadiro cataska daniel lispmeister mrSpec tcr hugod lemoinem Ginei_Morioka gigamonkey az sellout Intensity PCMX Skunkwaffle m4dnificent chemuduguntar didi vandemar jsnikeris SCVirus rahul Adamant Tristam [df] vert2 mbohun angavrilov 16:41:38 -!- names: Quadrescence pr s0ber The_Fellow1 antifuchs ramus jajcloz Guest96643 setheus jamief jcazevedo ace4016 nowhere_man V-ille sixpoint8 Fullma em antoszka prip borkamaniac rapacity koollman djinni` lnostdal jesusabdullah stokachu pmd svk_ slyrus jrockway zc00gii abeaumont boysetsfrog trigen syntard Euthydemus Patzy pchrist kleppari arbscht xinming billstclair sykopomp pierrep Obfuscate snorble eli clog katesmith Krystof dmiles_afk scode petter` delYsid 16:41:38 -!- names: sigjuice Quetzalcoatl_ kae_ gnooth udzinari xristos gavv\w gju guther ianmcorvidae lusory mejalx gz symbole` Khisanth devinus fe[nl]ix Xof_ Kovensky Draggor1 hypno felipe joast ivan4th _3b theBlackDragon spiaggia |3b| PissedNumlock srcerer luis cpt_nemo replete housel mathrick lisppaste sentry syntard_ bobbysmith007 metasyntax` rtoym Bucciarati mpedersen bougyman BrianRice cipher katofiad wgl thom_logn guaqua lianj Aferlak12 Demosthenes njan hdurer_ ve 16:41:38 -!- names: Aisling Taiyou foom lharc nuba tessier chandler cods pok OliverUv borism rafl PuffTheMagic Buganini Nshag krl quasisane jpanest deepfire krappie_ mreggen cinch azuk rootzlevel kencausey lichtblau zvrba tychoish ejohnson clop DrForr fmu_ lonstein spacebat cYmen pjb ineiros fnordus acieroid bzzbzz gds phadthai Fade Zahl_ mornfall ntd tvaalen ecraven Tasunteld eno yan_ mtd AntiSpamMeta Dodek ozzloy johanbev codemonk1yx stettber` aoh karbak Odin- Tordek 16:41:38 -!- names: blitz_ kloeri koning_robot ddv nasloc__ easyE starseeker adeht ``Erik Axioplase_ sepi amaron hdurer`` Zhivago stepnem johs Adrinael elly rabite qebab egn majoh galdor boyscared m4thrick Xantoz hohum nullman herbieB franki^ baley vs_ sid3k z0d strlen incandenza derrida mal__ dcrawford bfein jsnell Borbus fmu mgr tomaw erk_ pkhuong_ rotty albino l_a_m Pepe_ fihi09 yahooooo zbigniew 16:41:54 unless one is desperate to have right thumb still on it while hitting enter on the keypad 16:42:05 hmm too far. can't reach :S 16:42:13 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:43:27 http://mc.pp.se/dc/kbd_large.jpg \o/ 16:44:10 schme: That's good! 16:44:37 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:52 Japanese is it? 16:45:31 Is tcr around often these days? 16:45:47 jmckitrick: saw him today here 16:45:58 I must have missed him. 16:46:02 like 4 hours ago 16:46:34 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:35 jmckitrick: You can find that out by doing "grep 10*" in the Tunes logs. 16:46:50 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:30 [with quotations around ] 16:47:47 beach: Seems so. It's apperently for the dreamcast console. Trying to google around to see if it works with a 'normal' computer. 16:50:00 schme: The right key from the tiny SPC seems to prove P vs NP. 16:51:03 No it just mentions the lack of space on this tiny key for the complete exposure of that elegant proof. 16:51:19 Heh! 16:52:10 didi: :D 16:52:17 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:52:48 I find some "mini" keyboard that looked like it did the right thing. But it had really just put insert/home/etc next to the mini space bar. 16:52:50 Yay, mega1 is back on top! 16:53:02 *schme* should design a keyboard then. 16:53:42 *beach* can now be proud both of bocsimacko and medrimonia. 16:54:10 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-92-28-98.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:16 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:54:30 -!- jesusabdullah [~jesusabdu@li225-26.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:54:30 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:29 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050064108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:57:03 i wish we could cheerlead the games somehow. http://ai-contest.com/visualizer.php?game_id=8333983 is a thrill-ride. 16:57:50 -!- emptypea [~marcusp@158.223.53.73] has left #lisp 16:59:00 Xach: Interesting - the game you just sent reminds me of Wargames. 16:59:27 -!- gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:59:39 In the sense that they don't attack 17:01:21 -!- danlen-1 [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:03:55 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:34 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.72] has joined #lisp 17:06:04 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 17:07:35 jesusabdullah [~jesusabdu@li225-26.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:29 libgnt sure seems interesting for mcclim (: (: 17:09:04 antifuchs: aroundp? 17:09:39 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:43 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:10:07 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-156-4-62.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:13 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-45-55.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:10:13 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 17:10:48 I have a swank server that can only listen as 127.0.0.1. Is there a way Swank can be set to listen to connections from other machines? 17:11:17 Modius: I sometimes use ssh tunneling for that. 17:11:36 Modius: I think to do it within swank you need to edit the code. 17:11:39 Xach: So swank servers inherently don't accept connections to anything other than 127.0.0.1? 17:11:46 Modius: yes. that is by design. 17:12:00 Modius: Though I haven't read the code recently, so my info might be out of date. 17:12:09 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:13:44 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 17:13:44 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:14:07 back 17:14:15 psilord1 [~psilord@merlin.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:14:43 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 17:14:43 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:14:55 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@merlin.cs.wisc.edu] has left #lisp 17:16:35 may i ask why most of you learn lisp? i personally am because ive heard it can make you a better programmer, of course ill probably find it difficult to get decent with 17:16:57 *_3b* got annoyed with c++, so decided to switch to CL instead 17:18:07 Craig`: I initially learnt it when I found a book at some library. 17:18:25 Craig`: Then I forgot all about it and revisited it some years later for some reason I forget. 17:19:34 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:50 is it possible to specialize method args on built-in types? (like number or fixnum) 17:20:36 yan_: I'm thinking specializing on the class fixnum. 17:20:41 Craig`: http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=275 17:20:45 <_3b> built-in classes yes, but not types without corresponding classes 17:21:19 _3b: can i find a list of types with corresponding classes? 17:21:44 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:50 <_3b> possibly http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/04_cg.htm#classtypecorrespondence 17:23:29 <_3b> so number or integer are classes you can specialize, but fixnum is not 17:23:56 Why not fixnum? 17:24:27 _3b: i'm gettig a style-warning: "This is not a NUMBER: NIL" 17:24:43 _3b: on the defmethod form 17:24:48 nil is not a number, so that makes sense 17:25:09 <_3b> yeah, can't tell what is wrong without context 17:25:18 schme: but that error is on the definition.. hm hang on 17:25:34 -!- schme is now known as schmrkc 17:25:39 <_3b> schme: presumably for the same reason you can't specialize on (integer 0 5) or whatever 17:26:01 _3b: Why wouldn't specializing on the fixnum class work? 17:26:10 <_3b> there is no fixnum class 17:26:30 (class-of 1) => # 17:26:48 -!- Craig` [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:26:52 this is the defmethod that's throwing the warnings: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116917 17:27:01 <_3b> clhs fixnum 17:27:07 oh er 17:27:11 i see the issue now haha 17:27:58 the with-slots form was left over 17:28:07 which i assume is what it's complaining 17:28:14 _3b: sbcl sure seems to have a fixnum class anyhoo. 17:28:30 <_3b> i guess if the implementation has a fixnum class, you can specialize on it unportably 17:28:55 portability is overrated (. 17:28:55 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:29:19 Craig` [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:31 sorry keep losing connection 17:30:02 morphling 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quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:34:31 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.164.60] has joined #lisp 18:34:48 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host86-145-187-228.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:38 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:07 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-164-95-78.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:07 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 18:37:48 I'd like a bin/ directory below my .asd where windows dlls live and get automatically loaded from 18:38:02 I used to be able to do it with ASDF, but am not sure how with ASDF2 18:38:11 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-111-140.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:27 ZabaQ: you can specify paths relative to the system with asdf:system-relative-pathname. 18:38:39 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 18:38:42 ah! 18:38:53 e.g. (defvar *dll-path* (asdf:system-relative-pathname 'foo "bin/")) 18:39:04 Xach! You marvel! 18:39:11 *Xach* lives to serve 18:39:26 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-95-137.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:41:02 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 18:41:32 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:41:33 Quick! Without looking, can you name a CL-defined special variable that doesn't wear earmuffs? 18:41:57 *Xach* could not, and was slightly surprised by the answer 18:42:28 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089072074030.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 18:42:28 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089072074030.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 18:42:28 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:42:42 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.110.238.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:42:46 "xach" ? 18:43:37 schmrkc: by "CL-defined", I mean one that is part of the standard and is named by a symbol in the standard COMMON-LISP package. 18:43:43 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-lbdqstkkkgizbozd] has joined #lisp 18:44:07 Xach: What is it? 18:44:21 *ZabaQ* remembers something to do with packages.. 18:44:43 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-145-187-228.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:44:51 Heh. I can name several. 18:44:52 -!- jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-243-131.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:52 Xach: the repl vars 18:44:58 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-163-17-239.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:00 adeht has the right of it. 18:45:05 indeed he does 18:45:14 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-89-159.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 18:45:23 Some eight without earmuffs and two with, right? 18:45:40 do ** and *** count as having earmuffs? 18:45:54 "Yes, of course they do." 18:46:53 leo2007 [~leo@222.77.105.128] has joined #lisp 18:46:55 basant [~basant@triband-mum-59.184.119.23.mtnl.net.in] has joined #lisp 18:46:58 b-man_ [~b-man@189.26.131.245.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:47:43 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 18:47:49 * has a monomuff 18:48:13 those variables were cited by doug hoyte as an example of CL itself not being consistent with the earmuff convention. 18:48:23 Why do we stop at earmuffs. 18:48:26 Seems like a stretch to me. 18:48:36 does that mean #'* is the only function named with something related to earmuffs? 18:48:46 ZabaQ: rpg proposes +foo+ be called "piercings" 18:48:47 CL is one of the few languages that can have smileys as variable names? Can't we have variables with emotional state? 18:48:49 Xach: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." 18:49:08 -!- basant [~basant@triband-mum-59.184.119.23.mtnl.net.in] has quit [Client Quit] 18:49:09 Xach: how about 'jazz hands'? 18:49:31 ZabaQ: Unfortunately, :-} is a constant. I'm sure you can figure out what its value is. 18:49:59 ZabaQ: (defun ^_^ () (print "<3!")) 18:51:14 nyef: I've used ';D' before for particularly 'clever' code. 18:52:19 I've used ";; KLUDGE: " for particularly 'clever' code. 18:52:22 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:52:30 Nice, nice! 18:52:38 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:52:53 I recall seeing that in SBCL's PCL code... 18:52:59 <_3b> :-} doesn't have to be constant, just import it from some other package rather than interning it directly :p 18:53:16 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:00 _3b: Actually, the act of importing it to the KEYWORD package interns it within the KEYWORD package, and at that point the keyword-nature takes over. 18:54:02 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:54:17 <_3b> well, sbcl is buggy in that case :) 18:54:24 nyef: importing doesn't intern! 18:54:32 Xach: What? Eesh. 18:54:46 nyef: Oh, ok. I take that back. 18:55:03 jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-243-131.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:36 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:56:40 MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has joined #lisp 18:56:48 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-217-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:56:52 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:56:56 <_3b> yeah, description of KEYWORD typ and glossary entry for 'interned' supports that interpretation 18:58:05 <_3b> ah, maybe not 18:58:41 <_3b> need to follow the glossary entry to 'present', which says 'accessible in that package directly, rather than being inherited from another package' 18:59:12 *sykopomp* sometimes wonders whether the need to language-lawyer is a good thing or a bad thing. 18:59:44 Needing it is not necessarily good. Doing it when it is needed is good. 18:59:51 Okay, but are you allowed to alter the package-use-list of KEYWORD? 18:59:53 <_3b> well, in this case it is more an 'entertainment thing' :) 18:59:54 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:34 <_3b> i guess IMPORT sqays it makes a symbol 'present' though, so sbcl does seem to have a bug there 19:02:03 if you need language lawyering after the standard is ratified, then your standard isn't doing its full job 19:02:37 Which means that your standards group dropped the ball? 19:03:22 you can't make anything perfect, but then there are such things as revisions 19:05:09 *_3b* wonders what stuff like (import 'cl:pi :keyword) should do under that interpretation 19:05:55 _3b: Package lock, surely? 19:06:07 it splits the image into two identical copies, except in one it succeeds, and another it fails 19:06:12 under my interpretation 19:06:37 <_3b> nyef: or any other constant from a unlocked package 19:07:03 You get an error about redefining a constant un-EQLy? 19:08:10 mysql through cffi inconsistencies: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116922 (could this have to do with static vs dynamic linking?) 19:08:22 What Would Paul F. Dietz Do? 19:08:58 consult the elders? 19:09:29 -!- igaray [be0301e6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.3.1.230] has left #lisp 19:10:14 Is movitz dead ? 19:10:28 define dead 19:10:51 <_3b> "Symbols in the KEYWORD package are, by definition, of type keyword." i wonder how they define 'in' there 19:10:51 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 19:10:51 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:10:52 Less hope of revival than the proverbial parrot 19:11:11 you can pick it up on a whim 19:12:52 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:14 <_3b> KEYWORD type includes all symbols interned in KEYWORD, sbcl seems to just be checking home package of the symbol though 19:14:25 _3b: You will probably find a couple of references to symbols with a symbol-package of the keyword package being keywords (certainly, it is used for KEYWORDP, which is the defined keyword type-test). 19:15:25 <_3b> right, something with a home package of KEYWORD is definitely a keyword, but the spec implies it should actually have to check the package to determine that type correctly 19:15:34 Actually, ISTR that making a symbol accessible from the KEYWORD package also requires making the symbol-package to be the KEYWORD package. 19:15:57 *_3b* did not see that anywhere 19:16:02 At the same time, ISTR that there's a small hole in the spec somewhere around here. 19:16:04 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:48 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:18:50 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:53 -!- jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-243-131.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:20:59 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 19:20:59 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:21:14 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:53 -!- nyef [~nyef@71.181.49.203] has quit [Quit: Gone. Back tomorrow or Wednesday.] 19:23:06 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-120-51.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:31 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:10 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-111-140.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:25:11 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.77.105.128] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 19:26:07 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:26 any python doers and or llvm doers here interested in making a common lisp implementation? 19:26:38 the first will be in python, then llvm-py will be used 19:26:52 to make itself in itself 19:26:58 zc00gii: what would be the advantage? 19:27:24 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255513.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:58 zc00gii: i think this is pointless 19:28:04 atm, I need some help making a python reader thing to read syntax 19:28:05 dlowe: well, it'd be actually compiled in the end 19:28:27 stassats: well, eventually it will be used in a lisp operating system 19:28:46 then even less chances to succeed 19:28:47 zc00gii: have you heard of movitz? 19:29:00 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 19:29:01 no 19:29:02 sorry for being realistic 19:29:13 but why's it matter? I didn't make it myself, so I'm not happy with it 19:29:19 I enjoy making things 19:29:26 zc00gii: make away :) 19:30:01 i enjoy making things which can be useful at least for me, even better when for someone else 19:30:15 stassats: and I hope it'll reach that point 19:30:19 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-33.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 19:30:25 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:30:33 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:30:44 so, what i suggest doing instead, taking some existing implementation and fixing its bugs or adding cool features 19:30:45 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:30:47 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host196-191-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:31:29 dlowe: movitz is only for x86 19:31:32 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-149-133.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:31:37 mine will work on anything that llvm supports 19:33:04 stassats: we already have an assembler in CL 19:33:37 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 19:33:37 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:34:04 zc00gii: are you aware of SICL? 19:34:13 stassats: yes 19:34:17 I plan on using it 19:34:18 zc00gii: I'm a bit confused about your CL in python. Did you implement + and - functions in python? 19:34:27 jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-243-131.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:55 schmrkc: yes, most basic functions are written in python 19:35:17 Theres a python in CL :-) 19:35:20 and why CL? it's old and smells 19:36:27 it'll be CL + bonusses 19:36:30 zc00gii: Why do you handle those in python? 19:36:31 bonuses* 19:36:47 schmrkc: I'd like to know how you'd make a + in a lisp with no functions but car and cdr 19:36:52 knobo [~user@138.80-202-64.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:08 zc00gii: but is there lambda? 19:37:13 not yet 19:37:22 there will be 19:37:32 I haven't even a reader yet 19:38:06 zc00gii: numbers.lisp from sbcl source tree comes to mind 19:38:08 zc00gii: which assembler in CL did you mean? 19:38:26 zc00gii: http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/lambda-calc-div-neg.txt 19:38:32 Xach: nass, I'm working with nixeagle..after he comes back from recovering 19:38:38 -!- Draggor1 is now known as Draggor 19:38:43 zc00gii: where is it? 19:39:07 Oh, I think I see it on github. 19:39:35 yeah 19:39:37 https://github.com/nixeagle/nass/ 19:39:43 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.26.131.245.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:39:43 Hah! I was going to suggest looking at movitz's assembler, but I see he already did. 19:39:55 b-man_ [~b-man@201.47.44.238.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:40:02 Or she. 19:40:34 Isn't python quite slow? 19:40:40 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 19:40:52 schmrkc: yes 19:41:07 but I'm using it to just get through the initial bootstrap 19:41:21 why not use CL? 19:41:21 I see. 19:41:51 stassats: obviously handling sexps in python is a lot easier (: 19:41:56 a lisp in a lisp will confuse me horribly 19:42:09 zc00gii: go buy a copy of lisp in small pieces. 19:42:17 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: (* (! t) nil)] 19:42:25 writing a lisp in lisp is the normal way of implementing CL as far as I understand. 19:44:02 I'm not sure + and - are such vital functions that you need 'em for bootstrapping. 19:44:09 but do keep at it :) 19:44:31 wuh-huh? 19:44:35 python is pissing me off. 19:45:00 nvm 19:45:20 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.41.47] has joined #lisp 19:46:03 >>> Cons(1,Cons(2,Cons(3,Cons(4,Symbol('nil'))))) 19:46:04 (1 2 3 4) 19:46:13 ive just updated my whole lisp system sbcl/slime/emacs from an ancient version, im now getting this error when i load slime: Versions differ: 2010-11-03 (slime) vs. nil (swank). Continue? (y or n) 19:46:15 is that a bug? 19:46:21 >>> Cons(1,Cons(2,Cons(3,4))) 19:46:21 everything seems to work fine 19:46:22 (1 2 3 . 4) 19:46:46 jconrad: you gotta compile swank after you compile sbcl 19:46:49 slime/swank 19:47:40 schmrkc: I have many more types too, complex numbers, floats 19:47:44 strings, characters, keywords 19:48:03 my __repr__ method for Cons is quite funny 19:48:27 if cdr is another cons, it cuts off the first character(a left paren) for the cdr's __repr__ 19:48:41 i'm trying to use method combination to modify an argument before the actual method gets to it, and i'm using method-combination progn and defining a :around defmethod.. do i need to add any qualifiers to the "actual" method? 19:48:41 Is there something slime-esque for vim that doesn't suck? 19:48:46 zc00gii: Let us chat about it in #zc00giipythonlisp 19:48:48 jconrad: you're loading an old swank 19:48:58 jesusabdullah: slimv I think is the thing that is mostly alive. 19:48:58 swank being the CL part of slime 19:49:04 / #zc00giipythonlisp 19:49:07 "mostly" 19:49:09 I like that 19:49:14 shoot, meant /j 19:49:23 oh wait 19:49:28 python? I know something about python 19:49:29 :( 19:49:35 uh oh. 19:49:39 jconrad: do you have a ChangeLog file in your slime directory? 19:49:50 stassats: uh ill have a look 19:49:55 Xach: have you joined? 19:50:08 I'm sorry, I laughed. 19:50:28 zc00gii: No. I meant "us" in the sense of whomever wants to see you talking about your project. 19:50:38 Xach: ah 19:50:39 That does not include me. 19:50:48 I wanna hear! 19:50:55 jesusabdullah: there is a channel just for you and zc00gii 19:50:57 I'd suggest #lispcafe really. 19:51:04 schmrkc++ 19:51:09 Heh 19:51:14 also I'd suggest Lisp In Small Pieces. 19:51:20 oh wait I already did 4 times. 19:51:24 #lisp is serious business? good to know 19:51:27 indeed you did 19:51:35 jesusabdullah: yes, just like the internet. 19:51:52 :) 19:52:07 jconrad: the suspense is killing me 19:52:46 stassats: i do, what should i be looking for? 19:52:47 *mpedersen* looks up "lisp in small pieces". Holy crap. Used it's $100. 19:53:09 *Xach* is tempted to sell his for less than that 19:53:32 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:53:44 mpedersen: Weird. I got mine a lot cheaper brand new. 19:53:54 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:02 I got mine for $80 or so new. And it's too bad that http://xach.livejournal.com/133661.html didn't actually work. 19:54:04 jconrad: you do have a non-empty ChangeLog file? 19:54:04 member:stassats: latest entry from 2010-11-07 says: 19:54:05 * swank-backend.lisp (label-value-line): Remove display-nil-value. And the other stuff too. (label-value-line*): Idem. 19:54:09 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:54:10 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:54:16 yes non-empty 19:54:49 we need a common lisp sazmidat 19:55:00 samizdat? 19:55:18 jconrad: did you restart emacs after your updates? 19:55:21 stassats: a self-published periodicle 19:55:28 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:31 Samizdat, sorry 19:55:38 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:55:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samizdat 19:56:10 yan_: yeah, i happened to know from which words it's shortened 19:56:24 stassats: yeah, 'self' and 'publish' 19:56:44 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-240-215.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 19:56:47 stassats: i speak russian as well :) 19:56:51 hi 19:57:00 LiSP is also $100 new 19:57:16 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:57:18 does anyone have a sudoku solver using heuristic search ? 19:57:35 is that a homework? 19:57:43 stassats: yes, i rebooted the machine after the updates 19:57:53 jconrad: that was a bit too much 19:58:00 I saw a presentation once on writing sudoku solvers and generators 19:58:03 Interesting problem 19:58:06 not i got one but i am doing brute force with it and i would like to compare result 19:58:07 i wanted to check i hadn't messed any configs up 19:58:15 jconrad: so, how did you install slime, from CVS 19:58:21 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:23 and how was it installed before? 19:58:28 pierrep: Try searching for: norvig sudoku 19:58:42 Xach, okay thanks 19:59:16 stassats: before it was install through cvs, this time i installed it through gentoo lisp overlay. so that was probably actually a downgrade, i didnt check the version numbers 19:59:20 can i define an auxilary method on any generic function? or do i need to specify a method combination 19:59:38 jconrad: ok, sorry, i can only help with slime installed from CVS 19:59:45 http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/ <-- wow.. David Lamkins has some pretty strong opinions on the publisher of his book, and for good reason it looks like. 19:59:54 yan_: what is an auxilary method? 20:00:09 stassats: ill reinstall through cvs, see what that does 20:00:15 stassats: thanks 20:00:26 stassats: like a :before or a :after on a defgeneric 20:00:43 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-195-143.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:52 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:03 -!- galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:01:26 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 20:01:26 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:01:30 yan_: you need a primary method defined for that generic function 20:01:36 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-120-51.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:01:45 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:38 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:02:56 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 20:02:56 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:03:28 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:03:45 stassats: how do you specify a primary method? with 'progn' after the name in definition, or just leave it out? 20:04:37 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-171-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:55 (defmethod foo ((bar foo)) ...) 20:06:11 (primary the opposite of auxiliary) 20:06:48 -!- Craig` [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:07:51 stassats: cvs'ing it worked 20:09:02 murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has joined #lisp 20:11:05 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.61.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:11:15 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has quit [Client Quit] 20:11:38 stassats: if i try to define a primary method on a generic function with ':method-combination progn', i get: "invalid qualifiers for PROGN method combination" 20:13:30 murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has joined #lisp 20:13:56 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@201.47.44.238.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:43 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-240-215.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:15:00 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-240-215.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 20:15:00 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-94-62.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:30 can anyone with reproduce http://paste.lisp.org/display/116922 with mysql and cffi? 20:15:30 -!- jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-243-131.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:19 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-33.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:43 Do y'all know of any libraries for keeping track of units? For example, cm vs. m, and automatically knowing that 100 cm = 1 m 20:17:01 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-195-143.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:17:02 b-man_ [~b-man@201.47.44.238.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:18:09 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-244-40.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:00 jesusabdullah: I don't know of a library like that. 20:20:06 hmm 20:20:12 Yeah, they're not common 20:20:21 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-94-62.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:20:28 -!- PCMX [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 20:20:43 I've seen stuff like that in DSLs mostly. One module in python, but otherwise 20:20:53 I'll add it to the "someday, maybe" list 20:21:14 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:21:36 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 20:21:36 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:21:43 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@201.47.44.238.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:55 Someday, maybe what? 20:22:25 My list of things to do someday, maybe 20:22:31 -!- udzinari [~opera@nat/ibm/x-xvvnfzjcsqduqaem] has left #lisp 20:22:51 item 20 is now, "write something for keeping track of units in common lisp." 20:23:22 jesusabdullah: did google turn something up? 20:23:44 Barely--there was something in Debian Sid at one point, but no longer 20:23:47 no other real signs 20:23:51 but my google-fu ain't so hot 20:24:18 there's something about a paper of someone which includes the name "glisp" 20:24:25 that's where I get a hit. 20:24:55 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-104-154.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:03 huh 20:25:28 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:55 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:26:41 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.164.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:26:43 Something else: I'm almost done with Land of Lisp, and I'm really liking it---so where do I go next? It hits on all the concepts, but it feels like it skips over some practical stuff 20:27:02 if only there were a practical book about common lisp! 20:27:05 practical common lisp? 20:27:11 that's just crazy enough to work. 20:27:22 jesusabdullah: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ is pretty good. 20:27:25 tssch! 20:27:33 jesusabdullah: Norvig's Paradigms of AI Programming is also pretty good. 20:27:47 Figures, I'm reading the wrong order. 20:27:47 According to you, it's "dead sexy." 20:27:55 Cool, I'll keep this on-hand 20:27:57 Started with PCL, and was then going to read LoL. 20:28:07 LoL is a blast 20:28:19 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.68.223] has joined #lisp 20:28:33 It's definitely not the end of the road though, if you want to Actually Learn Lisp 20:28:43 It's pretty whirlwind in nature 20:28:55 I'm starting. Looking to learn why to use it, actually. 20:29:12 why to use what? 20:29:12 Why not? :v 20:29:16 From what I can tell, macros look to be one of the most incredible things ever. 20:29:25 yan_: try (defmethod foo progn (...) ...) instead 20:29:48 Why to use lisp. It's part of why I'm quiet in here normally. Trying to read snippets and see what there is to see. 20:29:48 mpedersen: I find CLOS to be quite powerfull too. 20:30:01 I'm liking the functional programming myself, and CLOS looks nice 20:30:20 Haven't gotten to CLOS, not yet. 20:31:03 Heck, I'm only about 1/4 of the way through PCL. PCL looks very useful, but seems to jump into topics that I'm having a hard time keeping up with. I might switch to LoL, and then go back to PCL. 20:31:26 mpedersen: Check out Land of Lisp. You get an introduction to pretty much all the important concepts 20:31:38 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 20:31:38 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:31:45 I did buy the ebook from NoStarch over the weekend. 20:31:54 Awesome 20:32:00 Yeah, that's what I've been working through 20:32:06 i started LoL PCL and Ansi common lisp all at the same time and ansi was the one i stuck with 20:32:10 My dead trees copy is still (still!) on the way 20:32:26 I just wish they would have provided epub as well. Could have gotten it from OReilly, and wish I'd done so. 20:32:38 although i liked PCL a lot too 20:32:44 pdf is how I roll >:| 20:32:52 Also, NoStarch rocks 20:33:34 mpedersen: ANSI Common Lisp is unfortunately not a very good book for learning ANSI Common Lisp. 20:33:46 So, ACL is a "don't buy yet" for me. 20:33:53 xach: why not? 20:34:05 Next one I'm buying is probably The Little Schemer, actually 20:34:25 jconrad: wacky style and shabby treatment of useful features. 20:34:39 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 20:34:39 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:35:03 probably won't buy ACL now 20:35:17 jconrad: do you have the book handy? 20:35:23 xach: yep 20:35:33 jconrad: check the index for "packages". 20:36:07 Is cl-stm put into practice anywhere? 20:36:13 iwillig_ [~ivan@dyn-209-2-224-27.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:36:23 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-149-133.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:36:33 -!- iwillig_ [~ivan@dyn-209-2-224-27.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:37:02 xach: yep, i'm there..? 20:37:12 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-124-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:32 xach: you referring to the 'grossness of packages' bit? 20:37:37 jconrad: To write useful CL that you want to share with anyone, you need better work than that. 20:37:52 -!- bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: client closed in haste] 20:37:55 jconrad: Yes. And the coverage it references is about as useful as the index entry. 20:38:08 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 20:38:08 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:38:45 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-209-2-224-27.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:40:39 MagBo [~Sweater@212.93.97.135] has joined #lisp 20:40:55 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@212.93.97.135] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:01 xach: Right, I mostly chose it over the others because I prefer the reference style over the tutorial style of LoL and PCL. I suppose you're right though, I'm planning to read PCL next 20:41:22 MagBo [~Sweater@212.93.97.135] has joined #lisp 20:41:38 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@212.93.97.135] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:42:05 MagBo [~Sweater@212.93.97.135] has joined #lisp 20:42:53 murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has joined #lisp 20:42:54 konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 20:43:15 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 20:43:37 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.163.214] has joined #lisp 20:43:44 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu282.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:43:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:43:58 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:43:59 I have to share this one, especially right after mentioning Land of Lisp: http://bash.org/?767138 20:44:44 I LIKE LISP 20:44:51 philistine. 20:45:05 I'm still debating, honestly. But I'm giving it a fair shake, at least. 20:45:10 There's a few games written in lisp 20:45:22 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:45:25 commercial games 20:45:34 really? 20:45:46 give names please :( 20:46:03 wasn't naughty cat or something using lisp 20:46:23 Abuse. It's old. Also Jak and Dexter 20:46:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Oriented_Assembly_Lisp 20:46:47 wow, cool 20:47:09 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 20:47:09 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:47:27 the GOAL suite was written in CL as well 20:47:47 francogrex [~user@109.130.84.115] has joined #lisp 20:47:55 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@212.93.97.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:47:57 All games need AI and everyone knows that Lisp is the only language that let's you do AI. :p 20:48:05 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-240-215.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:48:18 I don't know why the finance guys like haskell but if you ever look at their code, it's pretty lispy, especially the DSLs 20:48:24 vert2: http://xach.livejournal.com/217567.html is an interesting thing to me 20:48:27 i'm not sure if i'm making much sense but does something like the following exist?: function:closure::method:________ 20:48:30 so in summary: just use the tool you like the most, unless you need to interface with C++ 20:48:50 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:48:51 i want to 'close' over a method and have access to the object it was closed over 20:48:58 or do i just pass the arg into the closure? 20:49:09 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 20:49:09 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:49:24 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.84.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:56 http://i.imgur.com/EfgDd.png 20:50:12 yan_: a method participates in implementing the behavior of a generic function for a set of arguments' classes or identities. 20:50:26 yan_: you could think of it as a fragment of a function. 20:51:11 Xach: fair enough, i was just approaching it in a different way.. i added a slot representing the closure to a class for instances to have 20:51:25 Xach: so i am encapsulating some state in the closure instead of the class 20:52:23 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.66.207.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:43 cmm [~cmm@109.66.207.56] has joined #lisp 20:53:35 vert2: http://www.daansystems.com/brokenvow/ also seems interesting to me 20:54:16 Xach: indeed, looks great 20:54:25 wow Corman! 20:54:43 I thought I was the only one who looked at that, except for Roger himself :-) 20:55:31 Corman seemed pretty active for a while. 20:55:48 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10951040 <--- interesting approach to teaching 20:56:08 p_l|uni: No mention of lisp? 20:56:11 well, it would have been, if it were up to me, but my contributions "trickled" into corman. I didn't like the speed enough. 20:56:13 I remember learning Lisp on that thing.. 20:56:20 -!- marijnjh [~user@p5DDB2B6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:56:26 Acornsoft Lisp 20:57:23 Xach: I was actually thinking of adapting similar approach with a CL-based environment 20:57:45 something like a simple "virtual lisp machine" 20:58:22 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-240-215.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 20:58:53 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:10 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-0-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:35 lispm [~lispm@g224122119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:02:31 -!- borism [~boris@ec2-79-125-58-77.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:02:52 borism [~boris@ec2-79-125-58-77.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:53 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:04:38 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-233.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:05:01 Another lisp question: In haskell you can compose functions like, "f . g" and that's equivalent to "h(x) = f(g(x))" --- does lisp have an equivalent? Or do you just have to do (lambda (x) f(g(x))) ? 21:05:08 er 21:05:15 (lambda (x) (f (g x))) 21:05:20 you can tell I'm really new to this :( 21:05:29 jesusabdullah: there are various packages that provide macros to do it more succintly 21:05:46 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:05:49 Any suggestions on where to search? 21:06:19 jesusabdullah: alexandria:compose seems likely 21:06:23 boiantz [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 *p_l|uni* personally used Curly from time to time, but it's a reader macro and thus frowned upon 21:07:35 *slyrus_* laughs about the recent flurry of emails on the clojure mailing list about whether or not "comp" was too long of a name for that. alexandria:compose FTW 21:07:41 Xach: Looks like a good library anyway 21:07:46 *katofiad* likes that technology that was made a long time ago is much better then a lot of technology thats touted as state-of-the-art today 21:07:51 jesusabdullah: yes, lots of things use alexandria 21:07:52 p_l|uni: reader macro? 21:08:13 p_l|uni: nobody frowns in the glorious named-readtables future. 21:08:51 (- 2000 21) 21:08:57 Bah. Wrong buffer. 21:09:09 And, yes, I *could* do that in my head. 21:09:12 1979! 21:09:19 Yes, it took me *that long* 21:09:28 Xach: it's pre-named readtables, but I suspect I could easily adapt it to it 21:09:30 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Quit: off back home..to do some lisp hacking!] 21:09:50 I'm not the only one who uses CL as a glorified calculator :) 21:10:33 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:10:40 jesusabdullah: reader macros are pieces of code that are directly executed by "reader" (think "parser" used when LOADing or READing) depending on certain triggers (macro characters, stored in "readtable") 21:10:49 Honestly, that's a huge aspect of what I use software for (calculating I mean) 21:11:32 Hmm 21:12:21 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:12:30 p_l|uni: i need to send tcr a patch that can intercept and name readtables from pre-named-readtables libraries like cl-interpol. i don't think it would be too hard. 21:12:45 p_l|uni: and i think it's possible quicklisp will reduce the reluctance to add a named-readtables dependency. 21:13:45 people who use reader macros without named-readtables should be restrained to never write code again 21:13:51 Curly adds [] and {} to Lisp, the first for currying the second for composition 21:14:24 p_l|uni: luckily, cl-sql also adds [] to lisp. 21:14:32 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.163.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:15:45 [f g x] => #'(LAMBDA (#:G883) (F G X #:G883)); [f g * x] => #'(LAMBDA (#:G905) (F G #:G905 X)); {f g x} => #'(LAMBDA (#:G906) (F (G (X #:G906)))) <---- a simple example 21:15:52 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 21:15:52 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:15:58 ehu: good for me that I don't use CL-SQL ^_- 21:16:21 I just use lambda 21:16:22 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 21:16:22 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:16:32 good for me that i don't have to read p_l's code 21:16:35 i've just added JSON reading using { and [ 21:17:00 adeht: most of the time I do so as well (Curly is rarely used by me, but sometimes I find it nice to have) 21:17:45 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:50 -!- borism [~boris@ec2-79-125-58-77.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:18:10 borism [~boris@ec2-79-125-58-77.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:26 *p_l|uni* just read through Horde3D examples and is horrified by the XML use 21:19:51 eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 21:20:35 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.41.47] has quit [Quit: ...] 21:20:55 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:08 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224122119.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:22:17 -!- boiantz [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has left #lisp 21:24:18 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:29:26 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:31:52 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 21:31:52 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:32:10 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:33:49 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:34:32 -!- symbole` is now known as symbole 21:36:23 Craig` [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:29 hey 21:37:10 hello 21:37:21 lo 21:37:51 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 21:37:51 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:39:26 -!- sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:41 im learning by reading practical common lisp but how do you recommend me learning by coding myself, i know of project euler but i find that pretty difficult especially with a new language 21:40:03 sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:25 Think of something small but cool and then try to do it? 21:40:47 I'm an engineering grad student, so I often start with homework 21:41:09 i find non useful programs boring and my ideas always become too complex 21:41:18 Homework programs are useful! 21:41:34 Especially when they're heat transfer calculations 21:42:02 Speaking of: Am I allowed to ask for a code audit, so to speak? :v 21:42:14 well, i could make programs for my math/further math/physics work :) 21:42:20 as long as you remember to use lisppaste, I guess 21:42:31 and response is not guaranteed 21:42:34 github okay? ;) 21:43:17 https://github.com/jesusabdullah/homework_2010/blob/master/ht/ch6/6.8.solution.lisp For example. 21:43:41 but im doing terrible in physics this year 21:43:52 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 21:43:52 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:44:02 Not functional enough, I know :) but is there a better way to do nested obnoxious-math like that? 21:44:22 (I actually found lisp to be pretty clear in this regard, compared to typical inline-expressions) 21:44:50 Craig`: Maybe you need to stop doing your homework by hand ;) 21:45:30 jesusabdullah, heh the problem is that i dont do homework :) 21:45:39 tssch! 21:47:44 but yeah id prefer to make a text form math to mathml convertor ( content mathml, there are already presentation mathml convertors) just im not capable of making such a parser 21:48:09 That's not a bad idea 21:48:44 it's a 10 minutes job to write an RPN macro if you prefer that ;).. 10 mins more and you can have an INFIX one 21:48:48 Probably easier in lisp than in other languages due to the code/data duality and macros and stuff 21:48:56 <|3b|> jesusabdullah: too many unexplained constants in that code 21:49:08 the best troll is the inventor of LISP... Jim Gosling or something 21:49:28 |3b|: It helps if you know the context of the problem, but yeah, I'd agree with you. 21:49:45 i usually would just code the markup myself but it becomes daunting for homework 21:50:13 something I've considered is a latex --> code converter 21:50:25 but of course I've never seriously looked at the problem 21:51:05 |3b|: If you're curious, Pr is prandtl #, Re is reynolds number, d is diameter, x is length and k is thermal conductivity. Y'know, if you care. :) 21:51:20 well i havent got the programming ability to make the parser and im only starting out with lisp 21:51:40 <|3b|> jesusabdullah: i'm more concerned about the 4.364, (/ 2 3), etc 21:51:45 Ah 21:52:32 mathrick: ... 21:52:34 That's convection for you |3b|! Basically, you look up a formula to calculate Nu (nusselt number) in a book, and, well, that's the empirical relation for a pipe. Where do the numbers come from? Who knows! I don't! 21:52:39 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:49 p_l|uni: it's brilliant :) 21:53:17 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-240-215.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:53:18 <|3b|> ok, not much to say about it if it is just transcribing some known equation then :) 21:53:18 I still want a database of heat transfer equations like that 21:53:34 Okay, cool :) 21:53:48 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633882.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 21:53:53 <|3b|> though i'd probably pass the parameters are arguments to the function 21:53:54 so someone before was saying to use emacs not vim, i watched some vid tuts but from what ive seen i prefer vim 21:53:54 danlen-1 [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:26 Yeah, def 21:54:31 <|3b|> Craig`: i'd say it is more a question of 'use SLIME' than 'use emacs' specifically 21:55:12 its just that i really like vim 21:55:20 Look into slimv then 21:55:24 <|3b|> well, fix vim so it can do something like slime then :) 21:55:59 with slime.vim you can 21:56:01 or slimv 21:56:03 limp before it. 21:56:49 there are some of use vim users Craig`, but the vast majority of lisp users will be on emacs. 21:57:01 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:57:02 so you should at least get the basics of emacs, too, just to be able to translate. 21:57:16 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:52 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 21:57:52 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:00:45 jesusabdullah: btw instead of (/ 2 3) just write 2/3 22:01:55 orly? 22:02:16 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-240-215.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 22:02:22 in expt only, huh? 22:02:28 Nice 22:03:06 jesusabdullah: nope, 2/3 is a rational which is read everywhere 22:03:31 Oh sweet! 22:03:49 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:03:50 ^5 #lisp 22:04:21 jesusabdullah: however that only works for literal values, ie: (let ((x 2)) x/3) would be a read error 22:04:28 sure 22:04:30 makes sense 22:04:35 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-209-2-224-27.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:05:02 pjb: Around? 22:05:03 I noticed that (+ 1/3 2/3) came out as 1. Does lisp have a separate rational number datatype? 22:05:04 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:05:10 If yeah, that's pretty awesome 22:05:12 Yes. 22:05:23 \o/ 22:06:18 -!- danlen-1 [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:06:28 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 22:06:36 jesusabdullah: That is, indeed, pretty awesome. 22:06:59 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has left #lisp 22:07:34 -!- davertron [~ddcddavis@vt-bt-254.dealer.com] has quit [Quit: davertron] 22:09:11 jesusabdullah: you probably also want to suffix your floats with d0 (eg: 17.21d0) so they are read as double precision rather than single 22:09:21 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-240-215.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:09:26 Oh snap 22:09:28 or set *read-default-float-format* 22:09:38 otherwise your error tends to skyrocket 22:10:33 What would you set that to? 22:10:48 wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d81797d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:49 (defparameter *read-default-float-format* "d0" ) ? 22:10:51 hiho 22:10:54 minion: clhs *read-default-float-format* 22:11:03 stupid question: is lisp functional? 22:11:04 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:11:04 minion? 22:11:06 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_def.htm 22:11:14 jesusabdullah: 'double-float. 22:11:20 wakeup: it can be. 22:11:24 Oh geez, the friendly neighborhood bot 22:11:26 awesome 22:11:26 jesusabdullah: minion is usually a chatbot that can look up stuff in the hyperspec etc 22:11:36 wakeup: it functions, if that's what you're asking about. 22:12:12 wakeup: common lisp supports functional programming but doesnt particularly adhere to it as a unifying principal 22:12:38 ok this is offtopic, but C is definitely not functional right? 22:12:53 I am trying to draw a line here... 22:12:57 I think it's usually a mistake anyway to say that a language *is* x or y---usually it "follows x principles" or "is condusive to x style" 22:13:02 wakeup: true... C is pretty much the opposite of functional 22:13:19 ok, thank god 22:13:22 So you could say that C is intended to be used in an imperative style, and that trying to use it functionally will put you in a world of pain 22:13:47 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@61.99.46.4] has joined #lisp 22:13:47 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 22:14:40 When I told my teacher today that C was not a functional but an imperative language, he laughed at me and said he never heard imperative in context with a programming language... 22:15:01 wow, just wow 22:15:02 sry, stupid offtopic vent 22:15:03 wakeup: ouch... 22:15:24 but I was like... RAPE HIS FACE GODDAMNIT 22:15:24 wakeup: some old school programmers may not have 22:15:32 they'd call it "structured" 22:15:37 he does 22:15:43 my electronics teacher thought BASIC was the *only* language 22:15:48 :D 22:15:51 now that is stupid. 22:16:00 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:16:45 wakeup: at the time it was being developed, C was never called "imperative" that I know of. that's a post-hoc categorization. 22:17:03 if your teacher is a graybeard, that may be why 22:17:56 -!- fogus` [~fogusm@pool-108-18-200-57.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: fogus`] 22:18:00 at the time, no one cared about "imperative" name, I think 22:18:00 when LISP (yes, all caps) was being developed, it was categorized as a "symbolic" language 22:18:04 yes 22:19:19 of course your teacher may just be a clown too 22:19:29 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-233.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 22:19:58 hes a clown... around the 30s 22:20:00 but I wouldn't conclude anything based on that much info 22:20:04 yeah 22:20:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-188.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:20:44 head down, output up, class passed 22:20:59 yo 22:21:03 get that paper 22:21:05 -!- fmu [UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:22:18 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:43 fmu [UNKNOWN@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 22:23:57 Most engineers are all about the matlabs here 22:24:17 matlab, Maple/Mathematica, maybe Python at best 22:24:20 Some of the older guys will use fortran or C 22:24:28 Yeah, one of my profs is a huge python fan 22:24:31 but it's not common here 22:24:38 matlab :( 22:24:47 although Matlab has some awesome shit for specific scientific and engineering work 22:24:58 Yeah, it has some handy canned methods 22:25:19 express some matrix equations naturally then have it dump fairly optimized C for deployment 22:25:23 jesusabdullah: Java, Delphi, AutoLISP, F# are all used as well 22:25:35 The matrix manipulations are handy too 22:25:45 Autolisp :D 22:25:58 Haven't gotten the opportunity to really learn me autocad yet 22:26:05 I'm a researcher more than I am a designer, so 22:26:14 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-lbdqstkkkgizbozd] has left #lisp 22:26:24 (often number crunching is done in Matlab though, exported to DLL and then the other languages are used to integrate it) 22:26:58 That's probably not a bad way to do it, except for the whole proprietary thing 22:27:11 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: time to make like a tree, and split] 22:27:27 jesusabdullah: AutoLISP example is possibly slightly location-specific, as AutoCAD is *very* popular among engineers in Poland, despite being (IMHO) a disappointment compared to CAD tools designed specially for engineers, instead of drafting 22:27:34 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:27:41 the proprietary math solutions are annoying but don't suck. the free/open solutions nobody can agree on and suck 22:28:07 p_l|uni: autoCAD is popular in the US too 22:28:17 if they got centralized on something, it would suck less 22:28:27 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 22:28:28 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:28:42 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255513.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:28:44 p_l|uni: Though, for 3d, of course, Inventor, SolidWorks and Pro-E are common/popular 22:28:45 Sage is the closest thing to a coherent attempt in that regard 22:28:52 and sage sucks >_< 22:28:53 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d81797d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:29:03 numpy is nice enough though :) 22:29:07 y'know, for python :) 22:29:39 they need someone with both a math and CS degree, not one of the other, to architect it 22:29:44 *one or 22:29:56 jesusabdullah: well yeah, only the latest AutoCAD brought significant improvement in terms of 3D-oriented design, while Pro-E, Solidworks, etc. all are based around 3D *modeling* instead of simply drawing. 22:30:05 that's mostly why Sage sucks 22:30:25 I don't know much about the creators of sage tbh 22:30:28 Adamant: Octave is quite good, afaik, while R is "useful, powerful, but horrible" 22:30:37 R is "good" 22:30:46 never tried Octave, may be my loss 22:30:48 Adamant: I meant the internals 22:30:51 ah 22:31:21 Octave is a kind-of matlab replacement, except without all the boxes that make matlab into such useful tool 22:31:26 yeah 22:31:36 I knew that 22:31:41 I've just never tried it 22:31:47 Octave is a matlab clone. It's incompatible with any not-pure add-on, though it handles stock matlab pretty well and has some extra syntactic action to make it slightly less hateful 22:31:56 Like, dub-quotes along with single-quotes 22:32:03 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:32:11 and # comments 22:32:29 (probably the easiest way to make #!/usr/bin/env octave to work) 22:32:39 R is almost on-topic here, unlike just about everything else 22:32:45 (you can run R under slime) 22:33:16 Hmm 22:33:19 Interesting 22:33:25 I would not describe Octave as good in any absolute sense, for what it's worth 22:33:43 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@61.99.46.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33:47 I appreciate Octave as a DSL 22:34:01 despite its weaknesses 22:34:19 *p_l|uni* ponders linking CL and Matlab for a certain (possible) project 22:34:35 So, bringing it back to lisp: Any of y'all do numerical stuffs in lisp? Any advice? 22:34:46 somewhee, I have CL bindings for the Matlab engine 22:34:55 I was gonna look into the gsl bindings 22:35:08 likely to be much less hideous than the matlab engine 22:35:39 I have done numerical stuff in lisp, but it is past my bedtime 22:35:41 good luck 22:35:53 hah--thanks? :v 22:36:38 jesusabdullah: well, the GSLL had good reputation afaik 22:36:47 minion: tell jesusabdullah about GSLL 22:36:47 sweet 22:36:53 YEAH MINION 22:37:07 c'mon minion, we know you can! 22:37:38 *sigh* http://common-lisp.net/project/gsll/ 22:37:43 -!- sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:37:43 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:38:11 Okay cool, so gsll isn't a bad direction to go 22:38:15 Awexome 22:38:36 I think it's a great direction to go, but I might not be considered unbiased. 22:38:50 haha--why do you say that? Are you the author? 22:39:08 Scroll to the bottom of that page 22:39:16 I KNOW YOUR LAST NAME 22:39:20 dun dun dunnnn 22:39:34 um.... so do I! 22:39:35 Well! This is good--when I get stuck I can harass you ;) 22:39:37 jesusabdullah: Try not to be such an idiot. 22:39:56 lol 22:40:11 Tssch. I'm actually pretty clever--I just fake minor idiocy sometimes for minor amusement. 22:40:14 Minor, mind. 22:40:26 Do that via private messages to yourself. 22:40:41 LiamH: looks like a cool project. i've been working on something similiar. :) 22:40:54 hypno: Link? <_< 22:41:12 jesusabdullah: I've done numerical stuff in Lisp. 22:41:19 jesusabdullah: have no link for you, i'm afraid. 22:41:26 :( Oh well 22:41:34 rtoym: How did it go? Any advice? 22:42:23 Pretty good. Don't have any specific advice other than use a compiler that compiles to native code. 22:42:34 So, not clisp :) 22:42:40 hi, is there any way to define/add a slot for a class if it wasn't defined in its defclass? 22:42:54 LoL used clisp, but I've noticed that most things that depend on speed seem to like cmucl 22:42:57 jesusabdullah: Depends on how fast you need it to go. 22:43:02 hdurer__ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:03 News update for GSLL/GSD is there's now a great leap forward in speed of array handling, in that overhead on the lisp side has been reduced, so that basically you're making direct use of the foreign library. 22:43:46 my experience with solving QM-stuff in CL was great. :) i've also done a Gauss-Seidel solver. it is pretty nice for numerical work but i've yet to run full fledge CFD simulations in it. 22:43:53 I hope this makes the FFT performance reasonable now, but I haven't tested it yet. 22:44:07 Does gsl use fftw? 22:44:13 jesusabdullah: cmucl is not very commonly used these days. sbcl is the most popular CL implementation. 22:44:37 rotym: No, but Sikander is interested in doing a port using the foreign-array system (in GSD). 22:44:47 rtoym I mean 22:44:51 sbcl? Duly noted. 22:45:05 -!- devinus is now known as disappoint 22:45:07 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:45:15 *rtoym* uses cmucl, along with some others. 22:45:28 Er, other lisps. 22:45:28 rtoym: The GSL FFT is considered by those who know to be considerably slower than fftw. 22:45:28 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 22:45:29 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:45:55 -!- hdurer_ [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:46:12 hypno: Thanks. Development still ongoing, trying to spread beyond just GSL, because I need other things for my own work. 22:46:13 LiamH: I'm not surprised, but FFT has never been the bottleneck in my work, so I wouldn't care. 22:46:22 hypno: CFD? Didn't use a store-bought package? 22:46:31 My thesis uses comsol and matlab 22:46:43 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.72] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:46 rtoym: Nor mine, which is why I let Sikander push that. 22:46:48 (comsol is kind of a pile for anything done outside the GUI.) 22:47:05 jesusabdullah: well, i've used StarCCM as well as matlab. matlab is way to slow for serious work tho ime. i guess it will be hard with CL to, compared to fortran or C. :/ 22:48:07 Not surprising. The stuff I do usually isn't too intensive--it hits the sweet spot where I don't want to do it by hand, but a slow program can still handle it in reasonable time 22:48:22 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:59 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 22:48:59 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:50:11 ZabaQ [~Zaba@host81-154-125-220.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:29 Well, I have cloned glop..am trying to get it to work 22:52:17 is there a place to CL like erldocs or clojuredocs ? 22:52:23 for CL* 22:52:31 disappoint: No. 22:52:41 :( 22:52:53 What about the hyperdocs? 22:52:57 i am disappoint 22:53:02 ^5 22:53:16 disappoint++ 22:53:39 disappoint: the standard is not enough? 22:53:51 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:53:53 err, spec. 22:53:55 hypno: uhm...CLtL ? 22:53:59 or...ANSI? 22:54:13 There is an excellent opportunity to make something awesome that people like. 22:54:17 disappoint: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/ 22:54:32 omfg 22:54:33 what is that 22:54:43 The hyperspec! 22:54:48 my eyes! 22:54:51 disappoint: If you want to be a serious CL programmer, learning to use that document is essential. 22:54:56 okay, looks like i have my first CL project -_- 22:55:16 common lisp web page sexifier? 22:55:19 Xach: that's ominous coming from you 22:55:47 -!- disappoint is now known as devinus 22:56:03 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:56:11 jesusabdullah: what else! 22:56:20 A de-sexifier? 22:56:29 "Needs more animated gifs." 22:56:33 "Not chartreuse enough." 22:56:37 i don't think the hyperspec can be any more de-sexified 22:56:43 I have the market cornered on CL animated GIFs. 22:56:51 22:56:52 that's pretty much the epitome of unsexy 22:56:58 "How can they NOT be using Comic Sans?!" 22:56:59 CLHS has the plus of being wonderfully renderable on w3m 22:57:22 Comic Sans is the future 22:57:33 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3C1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:37 Adamant: comic sans has always been 22:57:43 Please, shut the fuck up. 22:57:50 ? 22:57:55 Go be idiots somewhere else. 22:58:02 Why are you so grouchy? :( 22:58:15 I'm not trying to be a jerk--I'm just honestly confused. 22:58:22 jesusabdullah: he's a Lisper 22:58:28 jesusabdullah: I don't really want to read a bunch of people amusing themselves with bad jokes about how terrible one of the central documents of CL is. 22:58:30 shouldn't lisp be fun? 22:58:41 If you want to do that, go somewhere else. 22:58:47 arrgh! cffi moved to git! I wondered why there had been no patches for ages.. 22:59:08 jesusabdullah: Lisp is a lot of fun. Comic Sans jokes are not fun. 22:59:31 they're definitely not on topic 22:59:35 But they're like the bread and butter of typography humor :( 22:59:49 CLHS isn't terrible, really. It's got some warts that could be fixed (id attributes are needed, some semantic markup might be useful as well) but the end result isn't that bad 22:59:53 Adamant: point. 23:00:03 I think the rest is just Xach being Xach 23:00:08 I guess! 23:00:41 ZabaQ: I discovered that one yesterday too 23:00:44 At any rate: A sexification of the clhs would probably go over pretty well 23:00:59 the id attributes are especially useful to me because I wouldn't have to iterate over the whole page to mark all the notes. 23:01:23 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:01:30 Honestly, you could probably just filter it through jquery in a bookmarklet 23:01:34 jesusabdullah: That would be a pretty interesting project. I'd be curious to see how people like it. 23:01:54 jesusabdullah: "Distribution of the Common Lisp HyperSpec as a hypertext document on the Internet does not constitute consent to any use of the underlying hypertext markup for redistribution of any kind, commercial or otherwise, either via the Internet or using some other form of distribution, in hypertext or otherwise." 23:01:55 jesusabdullah: iterating over the whole page text is *slow* 23:02:01 I guess that's why nobody has tried it. 23:02:37 devinus: it doesn't say that we can't distribute files that modify a copy downloaded from Lispworks or browsed on their server 23:02:38 ah--then a js filter may be the way to go---at least, with v8 23:02:50 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:02:52 devinus: I'm not so sure. There's material available from which a different, prettier document could be derived. 23:02:59 *jesusabdullah* looks at parenscript 23:03:13 Hey, they even have a jquery example! How cool is that? 23:03:42 jesusabdullah: the new parenscript or the classic one? 23:03:50 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:03:53 there's a new one and a classic one? 23:03:59 I just googled parenscript and found 23:04:06 http://tryparenscript.com 23:04:36 Man I am totally watching this project. lisp and node.js? smexy. 23:05:07 jesusabdullah: okay, that's actually a pretty interesting combo 23:05:10 parenscript started out as a lispy syntax for javascript and became a CL-like language that compiles to javascript. those correspond to "classic" and "new". 23:05:27 the people who worked on the former didn't work on the latter. 23:05:51 I see. Since it's running on node.js it's probably the new parenscript 23:06:01 How do the classic authors feel about that, xach? 23:06:33 jesusabdullah: http://xach.livejournal.com/274830.html has some discussion 23:07:36 why should I use node.js instead of hunchentoot or the like? 23:07:46 just wondering.. 23:07:50 I'm not familiar with hunchentoot 23:08:01 ZabaQ: if you know javascript but don't know hunchentoot you might prefer something written in javascript to something written in lisp. 23:08:11 Oops, "but don't know Lisp" 23:08:15 ZabaQ: or vice versa. 23:08:26 I've done a lot more lisp than javascript.. 23:09:00 morning, lisp 23:09:09 But node's cool because you can write the same language on "both sides", it's highly evented, has some pretty cool libs (like http://github.com/substack/dnode)...Anyways: If you want to know more about node, feel free to hit up #node.js . 23:09:10 ZabaQ: stick to hunhentoot unless you need some high concurrency application 23:09:16 i don't know what the equivalent in CL is 23:09:19 Meahwhile: looking into hunchentoot 23:09:48 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:54 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.225.76] has joined #lisp 23:10:59 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 23:10:59 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:11:01 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:11:10 is with-standard-io-syntax just for really weird CL impls? 23:11:26 devinus: why? 23:11:37 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.107.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:11:51 IOLib looked promising 23:11:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:11:58 devinus: with-standard-io-syntax is about getting a predictable environment for reading regardless of what settings might be in effect. 23:11:59 ehu: well, the output looks pretty....standard, i'm wondering if some impls output some weird syntax if that's not used 23:12:19 Xach: what sorts of settings could make the output unpredictable? 23:12:22 lineendings? 23:12:29 encoding? 23:12:44 oh 23:12:47 devinus: why don't you look at the list on the page that documents with-standard-io-syntax? 23:12:56 yeah i think i get it now 23:14:52 -!- Craig` [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:16:23 so who do CL users and impls prefer an :upcase *print-case* ? 23:16:50 who? 23:17:21 Xach: so far i've seen CCL and SBCL prefer it 23:17:34 and Practical Common Lisp likes to use upcase too 23:17:37 devinus: It's mandated by the standard to have an initial value of :upcase. 23:17:44 i see. 23:18:08 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 23:18:24 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:41 hey..again :) 23:21:02 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:21:22 tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:31 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 23:23:32 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:24:07 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:45 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 23:25:06 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050064108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:26:02 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 23:26:02 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:28:31 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 23:28:31 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:31:03 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 23:31:03 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:31:29 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:12 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7557cb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:31 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-244-40.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:34:33 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 23:34:33 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:35:46 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-108-228.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:53 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:34 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 23:37:34 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:38:07 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-174.dslextreme.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:40:31 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.57.220] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:40:46 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-108-228.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:40:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 23:41:33 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 23:41:33 -!- [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:42:59 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 23:43:13 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 23:44:58 _6502_ [5e24ed3a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.237.58] has joined #lisp 23:45:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 23:50:01 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-217-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:53:37 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:54:16 -!- eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:56:22 why do i get that *row-separator* error again with gsll ? 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