00:00:17 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-66.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:01:05 -!- firecrow8 [~fcrow@69.38.169.34] has left #lisp 00:01:25 -!- felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:01:55 Xach: soon. 00:02:02 gigamonkey: the examples say (map-into a #'cons k a). Does that help? 00:02:11 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:02:12 Guthur, oh I get it. 00:02:34 the issue is not that asdf is verbose, but that operate returns a large secondary value 00:02:53 Guthur, to avoid this value, use (asdf:load-system :foo) instead 00:02:55 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:03:46 Guthur, the value was added because it is useful to some users, such as sgs, who collects from the plan the list of files that have been recompiled and need to be retested. 00:03:54 sykopomp: sure. I though it said it there somewhere. thanks. 00:04:20 Fare, Ah no problem 00:04:29 I'll use load-sys from now on 00:04:36 sorry about that. 00:04:39 You're welcome. 00:04:40 It did just crash my lisp though 00:04:45 crash it ??? 00:04:48 probably my fault 00:04:55 yeah it hung 00:04:56 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 00:05:04 couldn't even, C-c C-c 00:05:26 i entered (asdf:load-system 'foo) 00:05:32 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:51 ok now 00:05:58 not sure what happened 00:06:17 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:22 ok, thanks Fare 00:06:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-147-115.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:33 you're welcome. Sorry for the trouble. 00:06:56 its ok, (asdf:load-system :foo) is easier to type anyway 00:07:26 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 00:08:27 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:08:55 still not delivering asdf2: clisp, lispworks, gcl 00:10:39 with lispworks I would expect next years version... with GCL, I'd give up :D 00:10:40 scratch that, clisp has asdf 2.008. Yay! 00:10:55 still not delivering asdf2: lispworks, gcl 00:11:13 is Allegro delivering ASDF2 ? 00:11:21 since this week, it does! 00:11:53 anyone know anything about corman? is it dead? 00:12:14 Fare: what about scl ? 00:12:31 scl has asdf2, too 00:12:32 no idea about Corman, but last major release was rather long time ago 00:12:40 don't remember the version, but at least 2.008 00:12:48 and I'm unsure if it included ASDF at all 00:14:09 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:14:43 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:15:36 Fare: I have Scieneer 1.3.9.1 and there's no trace of any version of ASDF 00:16:50 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 00:17:28 fe[nl]ix, I dunno when it made it in. 00:17:28 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:17:38 fe[nl]ix, complain to douglas crosher? 00:18:38 I have nothing to complain about 00:19:06 I have my own multi-CL init system that loads ASDF 00:19:31 and it works well enough that I don't care if the CL ships ASDF or not 00:20:38 mmoreno80 [97c1d518@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.193.213.24] has joined #lisp 00:21:35 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 00:21:57 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:22:56 CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has joined #lisp 00:23:02 hi. do you know where I can find a curses port for clisp? I googled for a while, but without any luck. 00:23:50 uh? GNU clisp comes with its curses library 00:24:20 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 00:25:00 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:25:03 Fare, I'm starting with clisp and lisp in general. 00:25:08 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:25:15 Fare: not sure how to import curses into clisp. 00:25:27 Fare: (require 'curses) should work? 00:25:33 What are the benefits of using CLISP over CCL ? 00:25:42 CodingStream: no idea. 00:26:04 actually, clisp only has readline. 00:26:26 for full curses, try cl-ncurses 00:26:40 mmoreno80: see the clisp manual for how to do screen interaction. 00:26:45 or cl-charms 00:26:54 Fare: cl-ncurses needs uffi and this one don't supports clips. 00:27:00 *clisp 00:27:17 mmoreno80: specifically, http://clisp.sourceforge.net/impnotes.html#screen 00:27:26 Xach: I'll check. 00:27:33 Fare: I'm not sure how you found out that scl ships with ASDF2, since its last release was 2 years ago 00:27:48 jesusabdullah [~jesusabdu@li225-26.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:51 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.92.17] has joined #lisp 00:28:35 I contacted dtc3, and may or may not have miscommunicated with him about including asdf2 in his next release. 00:28:44 aha 00:28:45 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:09 ok, later :) 00:29:17 similarly, asdf2 is only in the cvs of clisp, possibly not any release. 00:29:53 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 00:30:19 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.92.17] has quit [Client Quit] 00:31:43 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:33:28 syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:40 -!- netytan [~netytan@host81-141-55-152.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: netytan] 00:34:17 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:04 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:40:19 -!- seangrove [~user@70-0-107-45.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:41:45 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:41:48 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@88.243.169.186] has left #lisp 00:42:30 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@144-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:43:09 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:44:04 Xach: not sure about how to use screen ... do you know where to find an example? 00:44:46 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-37-223.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: jconrad] 00:49:16 mornfall: No, sorry. 00:49:40 *Xach* finds lisp projects he had forgotten about to put on github 00:52:02 -!- CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has quit [Quit: CodingStream] 00:52:21 did (require :asdf) use to provide asdf 1 in allegro? 00:56:44 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:58:43 hey xach what about mogrel2 and lisp? 00:59:03 http://mongrel2.org/doc/tip/docs/manual/book.wiki#x1-640005.2 00:59:32 screen? the command line util? ez 00:59:43 mmoreno80: need some help? 01:00:35 http://mongrel2.org/doc/tip/docs/manual/book.wiki#x1-60001.2 01:03:02 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has joined #lisp 01:03:41 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:59 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:07:12 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 01:08:03 republican_devil: not the command line util. 01:09:35 CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has joined #lisp 01:09:56 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:10:41 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:10:57 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:11:10 jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 01:11:16 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-232-119-3.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:15:28 agrrr 01:15:43 symbole` [~user@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 01:15:53 night all 01:16:26 -!- republican_devil [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:50 -!- symbole [~user@216.214.176.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:21:30 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:21:35 -!- mmoreno80 [97c1d518@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.193.213.24] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:23:00 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 01:23:31 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C968.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:24:31 -!- srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:45 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:59 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:28:49 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-237.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 01:28:58 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu201.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:30:29 syntard__ [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 01:32:02 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:32:10 -!- syntard__ is now known as syntard 01:35:56 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-92-247.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:38:51 mmoreno80 [97c1d518@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.193.213.24] has joined #lisp 01:39:59 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.137.166.34] has quit [Quit: aceluck] 01:41:12 question: how do you print escape characers with format? I mean, with sh I do echo -e '\e[0;0m' in example, but not sure how to write the same with lisp. 01:42:04 mmoreno80: you could (format t "~C[0;0m" #\Esc) 01:43:09 Xach, cool! thanks! 01:47:32 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has quit [Quit: superflit] 01:47:40 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 01:47:40 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 01:47:40 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 01:47:42 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has joined #lisp 01:48:25 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 01:51:05 rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:51:19 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:14 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:54:30 *Xach* creates 9 new github CL projects 01:56:32 -!- konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:59:00 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725217.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:59:43 how does one leave a message to someone via minion again? 02:00:18 So.. what are the benefits of using CLISP over CCL? 02:00:28 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 02:02:14 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:02:41 minion: how do I leave a message? 02:03:01 blah. oh well. 02:03:26 CodingStream: you want to switch to clisp? 02:03:55 Xach: would you still recommend montezuma? 02:03:57 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:13 syntard: Not necessarily. I was just inquiring the pros and cons of each. 02:04:14 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:04:18 udzinari: I didn't see much wrong with it. 02:04:58 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:05:16 CodingStream: CCL compiles to native code and is generally faster as a result. If you need custom work, you can pay a nice company to do it for you. It has a nice manual. It is written mostly in Lisp. 02:05:34 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu201.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 02:05:43 CLISP has a nice manual also. 02:05:50 Oh, sorry. I read your question backwards. 02:06:34 CodingStream: for me it's easier to make things I use in ccl 02:06:44 make things work 02:07:02 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:07:27 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725217.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 02:08:09 CodingStream: if you like to use the repl directly, clisp has nice readline support. 02:08:40 CodingStream: clisp can, in theory, be bootstrapped from C, but I've had trouble doing that. it requires some library configuration that isn't as easy for me as maybe it should be. 02:08:41 Xach: I use SLIME 02:09:02 clisp's slime integration is not, i think, as good as ccl's. 02:09:55 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:11:31 WHOA. Go Xach GO! :) 02:12:10 *Xach* writes a blog post describing the project dump 02:13:03 -!- xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:13:21 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:15:33 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:16:47 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:16:49 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 02:18:08 -!- CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has quit [Quit: CodingStream] 02:18:42 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:15 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:21:20 Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:22:23 Ocaso [~chatzilla@203.156.243.14] has joined #lisp 02:22:44 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu201.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:24:57 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-196.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:25:08 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-237.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:25:59 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 02:26:10 superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:20 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 02:27:08 chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has joined #lisp 02:30:26 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-66.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:31:14 tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:50 -!- mejalx [~mejalx@li175-121.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:32:48 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 02:32:53 mejalx [~mejalx@li175-121.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:35:35 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 02:35:38 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.174.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:37:41 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:39:20 -!- mmoreno80 [97c1d518@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.193.213.24] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:42:24 xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:44 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:33 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Quit: longshot] 02:58:23 aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:03:12 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 03:10:15 marning 03:11:22 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-akobhggmhovcatof] has joined #lisp 03:11:38 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:12:07 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:54 Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:42 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.73] has joined #lisp 03:22:25 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:22:28 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-139-235.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:22:37 syntard [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 03:24:24 lusory [~bart@bb219-75-1-110.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:25:38 -!- tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 03:31:02 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:32:48 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:36 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 03:38:10 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:45:47 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:52:06 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:57:30 xcarm [~milsem@213.226.63.58] has joined #lisp 03:57:54 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:00:19 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 04:00:32 vernono [~vernono@pa-67-234-43-42.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:22 -!- vernono [~vernono@pa-67-234-43-42.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #lisp 04:01:54 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06:46 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06:47 syntard__ [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 04:07:00 -!- syntard__ is now known as syntard 04:10:45 SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:55 -!- az [~az@p4FE4EE59.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:14:02 Good morning everyone! 04:14:09 morning beach ! 04:15:14 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 04:18:55 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:25 Xach: I liked your date-parser in usenet-legend :) though I would have used GO and tags for the state machine 04:20:27 az [~az@p4FE4EBD4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:08 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-92-247.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:21:15 is there a place where i can learn where all these crazy CL functions got their names? 04:21:23 princ? wtf does that even mean? 04:21:25 In the bowels of time. 04:21:28 terpri? 04:21:32 getf what? 04:21:39 cadaadr 04:21:42 oookay 04:21:47 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:21:48 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:21:48 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-92-203.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:21:53 Once upon a time there was a language called fortran that only supported six character identifiers. 04:22:09 So people got used to writing functions with six character names ... 04:22:48 And some of the people wrote early lisp functions, which were then frozen in time by the harsh demands of backward source compatibility. 04:22:50 devinus: cadaadr is pretty obvious though, no? (car (cdr (car (car (cdr ..... ) 04:23:03 haha obvious 04:23:22 *schmrkc* always thought of terpri as terminate-print. 04:23:39 that would make sense 04:23:48 BobTheWikipedian [4b10e7b9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.16.231.185] has joined #lisp 04:23:54 i wish there was a website dedicated to finding the origin of the function names? 04:23:59 nconc ? :) 04:24:28 devinus: you can find the answers on c.l.l 04:24:39 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:45 e.g., http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f2448521b721c4c7 04:24:49 hello again folks...my program's coming along quite well now but i've got a question about how to import a list from another file and also how to export the list to the same file when i'm finished with it 04:25:13 Oh dear! 04:25:40 spratt [~spratt@CPE0014bf3f85af-CM00080d79b684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:25:48 BobTheWikipedian: I think the hyperspec has a good section on file IO. 04:25:59 hyperspec? 04:26:03 Bob: read and print, probably ... 04:26:08 you mean the gentle book? 04:26:37 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm 04:26:57 i'll have a look thanks 04:28:40 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-27.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:30:09 This will end well. 04:30:19 dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:26 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.73] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 04:35:50 what's a really cleanly implemented, easy to digest CL project i can sink my teeth into? 04:36:28 devinus: What are you interested in? 04:36:35 devinus: There are plenty on common-lisp.net. What kind of project are you interested in? 04:37:41 nothing too abstract, i guess i'm interested in web development if i had to categorize myself 04:37:55 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:38:35 devinus: weblocks might interest you then. 04:39:05 devinus: Cl-who might make a good bit of source to read. Edi Weitz wrote it which pretty much means the style is good. Weblocks might be good for using but not reading. 04:39:05 cl-ppcre is often recommended.. 04:39:27 I'd prefer to recommend yaclml over cl-who 04:39:39 adeht: For reading or usage? 04:39:45 redline: both 04:40:00 *redline6561* needs to play with yaclml again at some point... 04:40:58 devinus: And if you use a linux distro, paktahn might prove interesting as a look inside a package management helper. If you use archlinux, it will be more interesting. :P 04:41:15 os x unfortunately 04:43:09 is weblocks from the guy who wrote land of lisp? 04:44:04 more projects that aren't very complex and serve well as implementation examples are cl-irc, vecto, ironclad, cl-yacc 04:44:53 devinus: no 04:44:56 psilord [~psilord@76.201.145.79] has joined #lisp 04:45:02 -!- psilord [~psilord@76.201.145.79] has left #lisp 04:45:08 ah, i'm guessing the lisp alien is all around then 04:45:57 psilord [~psilord@76.201.145.79] has joined #lisp 04:45:58 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:45:59 -!- psilord [~psilord@76.201.145.79] has left #lisp 04:46:00 well t's alien technology so why not 04:46:26 c|mell [~cmell@gprs1.mtnonline.rw] has joined #lisp 04:47:08 devinus: Definitely not from the land of lisp guy. Originally written by Slava Akhmechet, maintained by Stephen Compall and Leslie Polzer. 04:47:19 devinus: Weblocks, that is. 04:47:59 adeht: Ironclad, really? If you're familiar with all the algorithms underneath, I suppose... 04:48:52 redline: well I've dealt with cryptography for some years, but I definitely am not deeply familiar with all of those algorithms.. but I think the framework around them is interesting 04:49:44 adeht: That makes sense. 04:50:19 the stuff you find in cipher.lisp, digest.lisp, etc. 04:51:23 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:51:31 i'll take a look at these projects for sure 04:51:46 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:52:23 once i'm more familiar with CL i want to tackle writing a scheme r5rs interpretter, what kind of projects would you guys recommend looking at that did a lot of parsing or other interpretters? 04:52:29 woah...i think it worked, but it replaced the entire readtable 04:52:31 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:44 devinus: C++. 04:53:09 Zhivago: :) 04:53:21 here's what i did: (setq *readtable* (append "studs.lisp" *readtable*) 04:53:28 BobTheWikipedian: rofl 04:53:37 devinus: some books worth reading have Scheme interpreters/compilers as examples.. e.g., PAIP, SICP, LiSP 04:53:50 well at least it's funny lol 04:55:41 so evidentally there's more to this than just sticking the code into the readtable 04:56:42 BobTheWikipedian: that code doesn't work, so I don't see how your readtable could be affected 04:57:05 ah i do see an error saying "studs.lisp" isn't a list 04:58:02 BobTheWikipedian: What are you doing? 04:58:19 just trying to insert code from another file into the program 04:58:20 -!- erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 04:58:34 So don't mess with the readtable. 04:58:44 later i need to replace the file's contents with new code based on the program's output 04:58:48 BobTheWikipedian: Where on earth did you get the idea that you could do that by changing the *readtable* variable? 04:58:52 clhs with-open-file 04:58:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm 04:59:01 by looking at the hyperspec 04:59:18 I seriously doubt that. 04:59:28 clhs with-standard-io-syntax 04:59:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_std_.htm 04:59:59 also, take a look at cl-store 05:00:07 honest, not sure where else i'd have gotten that idea lol http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_rdtabl.htm#STreadtableST 05:00:18 but i'll have a look at those two new links thanks 05:00:55 BobTheWikipedian: read the sections on files and streams. 05:01:01 right 05:01:33 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:05:17 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:13 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:10:19 -!- SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:12:09 hmmmmm since this is due tomorrow i think i'm just gonna skip the import/export bit and get the rest done...this part is a bit more technical than i'm ready for this early in my lisp experience 05:12:13 but thanks anyway 05:14:11 BobTheWikipedian: with-standard-io-syntax page has nice little example code on the bottom 05:14:29 yeah i checked it out and it's all over my head.... 05:14:50 we weren't shown how to use colons at all in class 05:15:24 BobTheWikipedian: what do you do at wikipedia, clean toilets? 05:16:04 i'll ignore that remark and just say the pseudocode in that reference isn't as easy for me to understand as that at the java api 05:16:45 syntard: I doubt it, toilets have lots to do with colons 05:16:57 adeht: :) 05:20:32 *syntard* writes some more pseudocode 05:20:44 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-100.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 05:22:40 and my current project at wikipedia is figuring out to recursively traverse a list of over 40 items but not have any more than 27 expansions of functions...it's pretty frustrating 05:23:13 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 05:23:42 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:27:14 BobTheWikipedian: ok, what kind of list, and where do you get those functions to expand? 05:27:20 -!- BobTheWikipedian [4b10e7b9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.16.231.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:28:04 BobTheWikipedian [4b10e7b9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.16.231.185] has joined #lisp 05:31:33 -!- Makoryu [~bloodgog@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:31:51 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 05:33:42 *pjb* is wondering what's a function expansion... 05:33:53 Itself? 05:37:39 jerivard [~jerivard@c-69-181-250-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:43 (sorry i was away) a functinon expansion is when a function is added to the stack of instructions 05:39:17 You need to learn recursion. 05:39:47 since i'm working with varying linked lists on that project, recursion is necessary in order to traverse that list efficiently, but due to the stack size limit at wikimedia, only 27 recursions can be made 05:40:03 recursion is never necessary 05:40:33 adeht: Without using DO's, LOOP, MAP, etc. this is. 05:41:03 schmrkc: Y-combinator! 05:41:36 if this intrigues you i can link the code for you 05:41:40 *link to 05:41:45 jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet3706.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #lisp 05:41:51 schmrkc: BobTheWikipedian's writings don't make any sense to me anyway 05:42:03 BobTheWikipedian: you can paste (hopefully lisp) code at paste.lisp.org 05:42:09 adeht: I guess you missed the last visit. 05:42:19 eh....it's close to lisp but not quite lisp 05:42:41 What's this wikimedia and what has it got to do with common lisp? 05:42:52 BobTheWikipedian: did you try #closetolisp ? 05:42:58 what 05:43:02 lol 05:43:40 -!- boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:44:32 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:44:43 anyway i'll be away while i continue working on that project for tomorrow...thanks for the pointers again even though it was a bit more technical than i understood 05:47:01 BobTheWikipedian: So I actually applaud your attempts at learning lisping. But please try to make more sense when you type things here in the channel. Your stack size limit makes no sense, for example. 05:47:38 -!- stokachu` [~user@nat/redhat/x-jxvlqgdrfgxlyzcr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:48:23 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:49:50 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:49:50 well, if you program in pseudocode, 27 could very well be the limit 05:50:29 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:50:34 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:50:56 then there's #pseudocode I'm sure. 05:53:46 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:52 syntard__ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:34 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:54:48 -!- syntard__ is now known as syntard 05:57:02 schmrkc-- if you look at a piece of lisp code, at least the ones i've seen, there are lots of parentheses. Parentheses that get nested inside each other...that pass arguments to functions...the code I'm working on for wikipedia uses braces just like lisp uses parentheses. Unfortunately, the Wikimedia software that parses page code is incapable of reading a function that calls a function that calls a function....past 40 levels. 05:57:43 unfortunately, wikimedia puts the stack table together before it executes anything at all, which even makes many would-be workarounds not work 05:58:21 so even breaking a linked list into parts won't help 05:58:31 What on earth are you doing with wikimedia? 05:59:04 working on the template that displays a taxonomy for any organism given the organism's scientific name 05:59:05 Do you mean you want to nest 40 levels of ('s ? 05:59:19 What does this all have to do with lisp? 05:59:24 basically yes 05:59:42 Why on earth do you want (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( to traverse a list? 05:59:56 recursion 06:00:18 and it has nothing to do with lisp....i'm explaining because someone asked what i do at wikipedia 06:00:20 nesting and recursion: different concepts 06:00:35 You don't need that many nested parenthesis to write a recursive list traversal function. 06:00:42 Maybe 3 or 4 I'm thinking. 06:00:43 recursion that isn't processed efficiently means nesting 06:00:46 I guess maybe 5. 06:00:56 it's a linked list 06:01:06 recursion that isn't processed efficiently means nesting 06:01:09 what 06:01:13 You are making no sense. 06:01:24 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-idkpounvpthtywgn] has joined #lisp 06:01:24 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-idkpounvpthtywgn] has quit [Changing host] 06:01:24 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:01:33 we can traverse lists iteratively, btw 06:01:51 can you explain what you mean by iterating 06:02:13 sabalaba [~sabalaba@211.101.128.18] has joined #lisp 06:02:29 (loop for x in '(1 2 3) collect (1+ x)) 06:02:58 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@211.101.128.18] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:03:23 sabalaba [~sabalaba@211.101.128.18] has joined #lisp 06:03:40 and how does that find the node of a node? 06:04:22 (maplist #'length '(1 2 3)) 06:04:23 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04:32 BobTheWikipedian: have you considered reading an introductory text? 06:04:48 an introductory text on what? 06:04:51 I think I suggested gentle about 15 times. 06:04:58 BobTheWikipedian: on programming. 06:05:16 i'm not even talking about lisp, i'm trying to explain the answer to a question someone asked me 06:05:21 sykopomp: oh come on. he's a 6th year cs major. I don't think he needs n intro text on programming. 06:05:31 BobTheWikipedian: Gentle Intro is a very nice book, and it will save you a lot of time, and help you to ask better questions (and have fewer). 06:05:45 BobTheWikipedian: great. now please stop talking about wikipedia. 06:05:48 have you tried following the conversation? 06:06:30 BobTheWikipedian: you're not talking about lisp, I followed that 06:07:23 i don't have time to discuss the problems of linked list traversal on limited-stack-size systems with you people when you don't even understand the concept 06:07:29 adios guys 06:07:59 BobTheWikipedian: It's not even a problem to do. Sorry. 06:08:12 -!- BobTheWikipedian [4b10e7b9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.16.231.185] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:08:33 *schmrkc* hugs /ignore ! 06:11:00 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:11:44 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:02 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@211.101.128.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:13:28 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet3706.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:13:33 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 06:13:39 good morning 06:13:49 morning ost 06:17:59 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 06:19:08 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:33 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:24:11 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 06:25:03 -!- moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@ETSY.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:25:19 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 06:26:52 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 06:28:07 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 06:28:13 22:06:15 < schmrkc> sykopomp: oh come on. he's a 6th year cs major. I don't think he needs n intro text on programming. 06:28:19 schmrkc: I think it's quite obvious he does >_> 06:28:29 oh wait that was sarcasm wasn't it 06:28:31 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28:34 herp 06:28:48 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 06:28:52 Yes, yes it was. 06:29:30 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 06:30:15 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:32:31 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:34:00 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:42 -!- c|mell [~cmell@gprs1.mtnonline.rw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:35:22 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:47 -!- xcarm [~milsem@213.226.63.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:36:22 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:37:34 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 06:38:01 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:38:57 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:40:19 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 06:44:36 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:44:41 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:45:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 06:45:34 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:48:41 -!- superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:50:40 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:51:46 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:55:41 ismouton [~ismouton@74.193.206.244] has joined #lisp 06:56:02 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:56:36 ok guys, I have a super easy question. How can I create a file? 06:58:48 clhs with-open-file 06:58:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm 06:58:56 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/files-and-file-io.html 06:59:00 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:59:28 ok thanks that reall was easy 07:04:50 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.73] has joined #lisp 07:04:52 HackingLemru [~ajmorgan@96.18.164.16] has joined #lisp 07:06:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 07:07:39 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:07:43 jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-59-167.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:07:50 antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:08:11 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:08:25 howdy, quick Quicklisp question, I've noticed that after installing linedit (which rocks), it sticks around every time I start up sbcl, usocket, however, I need to ql:quickload each time I start sbcl. How did I manage this, or was it by design? 07:09:33 you can save an image with everything loaded, or write an init script in ~/.sbclrc 07:09:39 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 07:10:21 -!- HackingLemru is now known as HackingLemur 07:10:27 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082AE16.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:20 got it, linedit is indeed in my .sbclrc file, thank you 07:11:52 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:13:27 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 07:13:27 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 07:13:27 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 07:13:56 -!- daniel [~daniel@p50829E09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:15:00 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-92-203.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:15:36 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-88-73.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:16:50 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:17:01 syntard__ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:32 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:18:42 -!- syntard__ is now known as syntard 07:21:36 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-bjcjjebcbkeymogr] has joined #lisp 07:25:28 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-222-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:11 _nix001 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 07:38:55 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-222-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:39:18 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:40:37 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Quit: reboot, bah] 07:41:04 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:23 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.13.223] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:43:03 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:43:28 xinming [~hyy@115.223.133.173] has joined #lisp 07:48:03 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:48:09 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:48:42 good morning 07:49:27 -!- _nix001 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 07:50:50 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53:56 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:54:29 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:54:46 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:05 syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:07 SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:59 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 08:05:47 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:09:02 Hi! I want to do some bit-wise logical operations on 52-bit-wide words. What should be faster, integers or bit-vectors (or something else) on SBCL and 64-bit-cpu? 08:09:41 -!- whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-148-170.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:10:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:11:30 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:19 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 08:14:16 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-91.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:35 jeti [~user@p54B473A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:44 whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-148-170.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:00 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:21:37 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:21:44 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 08:23:28 Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has joined #lisp 08:26:22 -!- spiaggia` is now known as spiaggia 08:26:27 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 08:27:32 -!- ASau [~user@89-178-104-155.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28:02 ASau [~user@89-178-104-155.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:28:02 churib: I would guess integers would be faster for that size, but I am just guessing. 08:28:10 hello mvilleneuve 08:28:19 [and good morning everyone] 08:28:42 *schmrkc* guesses the cpu likes 64 bit operations anyhoo. 08:29:47 okay, i will do some benchmarking with both versions... 08:29:58 sounds interesting :) 08:32:22 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9EAB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:02 katesmith__ [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:53 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:34:40 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-wzsunuqddwpisvjm] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:34:45 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-iatmundcfqefwstz] has joined #lisp 08:34:48 CrazyEddy [~mission@210.8.79.105] has joined #lisp 08:34:48 -!- CrazyEddy [~mission@210.8.79.105] has quit [Changing host] 08:34:48 CrazyEddy [~mission@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:35:30 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:35:30 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9EAB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:36:05 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 08:36:50 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:40:03 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 08:40:03 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:40:29 edlinde [~edlinde@nl116-231-136.student.uu.se] has joined #lisp 08:41:14 yeah, integers seem to be much faster - bit-vector-benchmark is still running zzZZzz 08:42:02 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:42:29 hi guys, how does one figure out how much memory an integer or some struct is taking in Lisp? 08:43:00 when I do a time command I get the total memory consumed by my program 08:43:19 but I need something that will tell me how much space say each node in a tree occupies in memory 08:43:31 is there a way to check this in CCL Clozure? 08:44:36 edlinde: why do you want to know? 08:45:09 Ralith: I have to make a comparison to a C program and mention how much memory is being used 08:45:18 its an evaluation of a lisp implementation I done 08:45:21 edlinde: I'm sure there is some incredibly hackish way to figure this information out. Maybe look in the source tree and see how integers and structs and such are implemented. 08:45:29 That's a horrible comparision to do. 08:45:39 But knock yourself out :) 08:46:05 schmrkc: is there no standard like how many bytes are needed to represent an integer? 08:46:17 I mean also depending on the os 08:46:18 edlinde: No. 08:46:29 edlinde: One machine word for fixnums and more for bignums. 08:46:31 edlinde: in lisp, integers are <-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------> this big 08:46:38 and can be bigger 08:46:43 edlinde: Less if you pack them into a specialized array. 08:46:45 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:47:22 hmm 08:47:32 hoh. it actually says in the hyperspec. tye of fixnum is required to be a supertype of (signed-byte 16) 08:47:44 edlinde: try (integer-length most-positive-fixnum) 08:47:46 I guess that could be a word. 08:47:51 edlinde: you can the actual size of an integer by integer-length, but this wont help you... 08:47:57 also I been asked to look into the options that my CCL compiler will offer and try options that will perform best 08:48:29 the prof wants to check the claim that lisp implementations (if written optimally) can get performance close to C programs 08:48:45 edlinde: calculating the memory usage in bits seems wrong; you should calculate it by number of slots per tree node or somesuch 08:48:59 jdz: ok 08:49:07 edlinde: performance in what area, I'm wondering. 08:49:27 schmrkc: in terms of runtime and memory requirements 08:49:45 edlinde: heh! 08:49:48 edlinde: like, for instance, if a C implementation of tree uses a parent pointer, but Lisp implementation does not, that's one less thing 08:49:58 edlinde: that's still completely unspecified. 08:50:00 jdz: true 08:50:01 edlinde: A structure or a class instance will take a little more than in C because you need type information at runtime. Count a word or two of overhead for such things. 08:50:21 a word is a strange unit it seems. 08:50:27 why? 08:50:29 edlinde: see also http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ 08:50:29 spiaggia: yeah thats what I am kinda looking for .. 08:50:32 because the size of a word varies. 08:50:51 kleppari [~spa@212.30.204.85] has joined #lisp 08:51:01 schmrkc: Yes, so it will be specific to an implementation and a processor, but that's the way it is. 08:51:22 Right. But for the fixnum. The spec says it has to be a supertype of (signed-byte 16) 08:51:28 edlinde: also, for strict performance, you might be interested in SBCL over CCL. 08:51:47 Ralith: ok can look into that 08:51:58 edlinde: Make sure you compare it to some C code with a LOT of manual memory handling. 08:52:11 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:12 there is also profiling-support in SBCL 08:53:00 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 08:53:00 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 08:53:00 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:54:22 schmrkc: well its kinda hard to know really ... this C code uses memory slices and doesn't do needless allocations/deallocations... so its pretty well written. With CCL I assume it has its own automatic GC that does the work for me 08:54:50 edlinde: Yes. It does. 08:54:52 Having said that I still have to run the C code and Lisp code on some really large data sets and compare runtimes 08:55:33 boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:55:44 I think I just got to mention things like... I tried a recursive solution and then I replaced that with a loop and got better runtimes 08:55:50 which did happen 08:56:12 If it is a huge data set maybe you'll have better result if you split it up and let seperate threads process bits of it. 08:56:19 I mean to traverse lists I was using a more functional approach and many times replacing maphash and mapcar stuff to loop seemed to do better 08:56:58 hmm yeah but then it wouldn't be a fair comparison... as the C program is not a multi-threaded one 08:57:05 So? 08:57:17 so what? 08:57:23 indeed. 08:57:35 edlinde: it's comparing apples with pears anyway. 08:57:40 edlinde: You said compared to lisp code, if written optimally. 08:57:43 edlinde: so what. 08:58:01 edlinde: Optimal seems to imply, to me anyway, to make use of your GPU and multiple threads. 08:58:42 edlinde: do you use the lisp and c implementations which will compile optimally too? 08:59:16 sabalaba [~sabalaba@211.101.128.18] has joined #lisp 08:59:46 edlinde: I'm thinking perhaps you will use up more memory using an array instead of a list. 08:59:46 (how do you know the Lisp implementation you're using is the optimal one? same for C?) 08:59:48 this is just a project for a functional programming course... and the idea is to show that implementations in common lisp can be quite fast 09:00:10 ehu: I don't know its the best lisp implementation 09:00:16 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:00:22 I guess you should write functional code then :) :) 09:00:31 edlinde: i'm pretty sure that you're just incapable of producing an optimal [in any sense] implementation in lisp due to your lack of experience 09:00:41 in real life, that's actually rather irrelevant: developer costs are the dominant factor in most applications. 09:01:06 jdz: yeah probably 09:01:07 you need a language which allows the programmer to do "the right thing correctly, quickly" 09:01:46 edlinde: and hashtable is not a very "functional" datastructure (in CL) 09:01:50 Hi everyone! 09:01:56 Hi dr l 09:02:13 Hi schmrkc. 09:03:12 jdz: Hush! All you need to be functional is to use lists ;) 09:05:02 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:19 Is there a special lisp library for working with strings? Specifically, I need a case-sensitive, highly optimized function to find a substring in a string and replace it with a different string. 09:07:42 cl-ppcre 09:08:33 http://www.cliki.net/CL-PPCRE 09:08:40 edlinde: Frankly CL sits in an awkward middleground in that respect. 09:08:46 jeti: thanks, minion! 09:08:54 edlinde: As a procedural language, you can make it fast by writing in a C-like style. 09:09:08 Zhivago: I agree 09:09:09 :) 09:09:19 stassats and jeti, thanks. 09:09:26 edlinde: As a functional language, it lacks the support required to restructure functions efficiently in the sense that haskell can. 09:09:37 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 09:09:47 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 09:09:52 Zhivago: Someone did a really good Haskell implementation of the same algorithm, and even a kind of badly written C code was easily 100-200 times faster 09:10:05 aha yeah 09:10:24 but its not to say that a language is slow or whatever 09:10:29 xinming_ [~hyy@115.223.132.165] has joined #lisp 09:10:49 its just to see how a lisp implementation will compare to a really awesome one written in C :) 09:10:55 nothing else 09:10:58 edlinde: 100-200 times faster ? you really are a funny one 09:11:05 edlinde: I view procedures as an important optimization technique for functions. 09:11:11 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:11:13 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:11:17 syntard__ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:18 galdor: good I make you laugh :) 09:11:46 edlinde: But generalizing the defunctionalization of functional code is hard. Certain idioms are less supported than others. 09:12:35 I suspect that the industry will slowly move toward an essentially algorithmic approach. 09:12:47 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:12:59 -!- syntard__ is now known as syntard 09:13:17 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.223.133.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:13:20 Small procedural engines implementing functions. 09:13:28 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@211.101.128.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:14:45 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:27 edlinde: Why are you comparing a really awesome C one to a lisp one using lists? 09:16:47 -!- SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:17:11 SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:08 Zhivago: isn't that what's currently being used? 09:19:39 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:19:40 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75593e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:09 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22:12 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 09:22:29 kenanb [~kenanb@88.243.169.186] has joined #lisp 09:26:38 koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has joined #lisp 09:27:28 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:28:02 reav_ [~reav_@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:28:16 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:28:54 stassats: Not really. Most people develop large procedural engines that don't implement functions. 09:28:58 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:29:48 araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has joined #lisp 09:29:48 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has quit [Changing host] 09:29:48 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:29:53 Zhivago: and why would people start to move off that paradigm? 09:31:43 ehu: It doesn't scale. 09:32:23 Zhivago: people try to solve that by sticking aggregates on top of it (services) 09:32:52 Zhivago: I talked to our CIO about the fact that those things don't scale. He doesn't believe it. 09:32:55 That doesn't fix the problem. 09:33:07 It might scale enough for his problems. 09:33:13 (well, our business will need "only" 200 services or so) 09:33:19 But these days the pressure toward scaling is increasing. 09:33:22 There you go. 09:33:34 well, he wasn't thinking about integration in the production chain 09:33:50 Not thinking about that helps :) 09:33:57 surely one of the next steps is to integrate with vendors and customers. 09:34:00 right. 09:34:05 but it still doesn't scale. 09:34:10 people just don't see it. 09:34:19 As long as it scales enough, it will be used. 09:34:35 or at least not in my surroundings 09:34:41 But these days the pressure toward arbitrary scaling is also increasing with cloud computation. 09:34:52 I think you'll see a major shift in the next decade. 09:35:10 interesting idea. 09:35:25 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:35:38 I suspect it will be driven by javascript. 09:35:55 yay! another C variant :-) 09:35:56 oh my 09:36:18 you have a good chance of being correct though. 09:36:30 good thing we have CL->JS compilers now. 09:36:45 Well, to some extent. 09:36:53 javascript isn't a C variant. 09:37:38 eeee [~eee@78.188.21.213] has joined #lisp 09:37:56 -!- eeee is now known as nnnnnnn 09:38:13 ehu: we even have JS->CL compilers 09:38:28 :-) 09:38:48 -!- nnnnnnn [~eee@78.188.21.213] has quit [Client Quit] 09:39:01 Javascript is reasonably close to scheme in many ways. 09:39:39 I hadn't thought about it that way. 09:40:06 No macros, no continuations, and the basic object is a map rather than a pair. 09:40:30 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:41:07 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:41:38 although the last point can be regarded as an implementation detail. 09:41:53 -!- chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:41:54 No. I think that it is a fundamental point. 09:42:22 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:32 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:42:47 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:42:49 Lisp's basic structure is the association (or singly linked list), C's basic structure is the vector (or doubly linked list), Javascript's basic structure is the map of string to value. 09:43:03 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:43:20 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:43:53 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:44:01 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 09:45:14 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:45:24 tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:27 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:54:28 spiaggia: are you around? 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I had problems with yaclml indenting horribly, so I fixed it: http://paste.lisp.org/+2I5F 10:46:49 gju [~gju@big1.hrz.fh-zwickau.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:53 Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:48:38 :) 10:48:46 in lisp? 10:48:56 Hun: what does the html look like before & after? 10:49:08 err, sorry 10:49:15 peterhil: what does the html look like before and after? 10:49:21 can you paste examples? 10:51:23 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.16.176.93.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:54:04 chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-93-189-209.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:54:32 Xach: i'm pretty sure he destroyed a feature 10:55:12 Is there a cl function that will do this: (replace-string "hi" "bye" "say hi hi") ===> "say bye bye" 10:55:35 drl: no. cl-ppcre makes it pretty easy though. 10:56:10 drl: you can also do it more easily with built-in things if the replacement is the same size as the original substring. 10:56:35 Xach, they are different sizes. 10:57:12 you can also use a LOOP and SEARCH to do it easily 10:57:16 drl: I think cl-ppcre is the path of least resistance, but there are many options, just not built-in as a single standard function. 10:57:56 drl: it would be (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "hi" "say hi hi" "bye") 10:58:22 i suspect replacing differently-sized subsequences is about the only function really missing from cl :) 10:58:22 drl: you'll not get that to be "better" with built in cl functions. 10:58:25 -!- H4ns`` is now known as H4ns 10:58:57 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116835#2 10:59:19 which built-in functions provide a way to replace same size substrings in cl? 10:59:20 peterhil: Ok, thanks for the example. That is not a fix, that is a break. 10:59:25 I'm not sure about not breaking the XML functionality though. 10:59:31 Why? 10:59:51 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.73] has joined #lisp 11:00:00 peterhil: you're introducing a lot of whitespace into the content of elements 11:00:03 peterhil: It introduces significant whitespace in the content. 11:00:11 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:00:15 In my eyes the "> peterhil: It's unconventional, but is content-neutral. 11:00:55 peterhil: your eyes are not significant when judging correctness :) 11:01:03 Xach, nikodemus, that is the one function I need the most. I work mostly with strings. H4ns, thanks for the example! 11:01:09 -!- lune [~claire@97.76.48.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:01:19 peterhil: let's see what your eyes say when the rendered HTML renders differently 11:01:25 kenanb: (setf (subseq ...) ...) can be used with a loop 11:01:34 You can set the indent to nil 11:01:51 Xach: i see, thanks 11:01:58 Xach: yeah, great. combine that with the required mismatch, yield spaghetti 11:02:13 Xach: unconventional, perhaps; pandoc has the same rendering 11:02:29 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116835#3 11:02:38 H4ns: I didn't say it was a *great* option... 11:03:01 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:03:09 Xach: no offense intended 11:03:39 galdor: Is pandoc widely used? I don't think I've heard of it before, but I'm not much in that market. 11:03:45 peterhil: so you suggest that changing the yaclml:*yaclml-indent* flag should change the semantics of the resulting HTML? 11:04:02 H4ns: How is "\n> peterhil: whitespace within tags are not significant; the same cannot be said about whitespace between tags 11:05:03 Xach: it's a document conversion system which supports a lot of formats (such as markdown, LaTeX, etc.), don't know if it's widely used, but it's powerful 11:06:03 jdz, pmd: So you are implying that whitespace between tags is affecting the DOM model? How come W3 does not suggest marking up content like that? How come Javascript handling of the DOM still wokrs? 11:06:19 If that is really a problem, you can set the indent to nil 11:06:33 peterhil: i agree with you that it is ugly as hell, but it is also more "correct" 11:06:49 I would not publish HTML code marked that way, whatever the technical reason for doing so. 11:06:53 peterhil: some people care more about "correct"ness than about usability. 11:07:38 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 11:07:45 peterhil: if the content of a tag has no whitespace, rendering with your indentation will create a single space. sometimes if you want two tags to be next to each other, but if there is a space, browsers may put the latter one below. 11:08:28 Shouldn't the whitespace between tags be not taken into account when parsing the DOM from the markup? I thought only non-whitespace characters between tags count as content. 11:08:34 -!- SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:08:45 jdz: i'd say that a html/css author who depended on the significance of white space is a bad html author. 11:09:02 SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:07 peterhil: "thought" is a weak expression in this kind of argument. 11:09:16 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:09:23 H4ns: it's not about depending on presence of it, it's about depending on absence of it 11:09:35 jdz: That sounds like 90'ies... 11:09:42 join #abcl 11:09:44 jdz: right. my bad. the argument is still valid. 11:10:02 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.57.220] has joined #lisp 11:10:22 peterhil: what sounds? 11:12:30 About caring for white space between tags. Wasn't it Netscape 4, which rendered tables differently depending on white space between tags. That is the only reason I have ever read about, for caring about whitespace outside tags. 11:13:35 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.89] has joined #lisp 11:13:50 peterhil: in any case, you need to talk to the maintainers of the software that you want to see changed. 11:14:51 Yes, sure. 11:15:01 -!- buncito [~user@202.70.51.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:08 Xach, I just used quicklisp to load cl-ppcre. My first use of quicklisp. Worked great! H4ns, I tried your example, and it works great also. 11:15:31 drl: quicklisp is teh rocks 11:17:58 peterhil: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116835#4 11:18:08 peterhil: so, all whitespace surrounding text should be trimmed and all whitespace inside should be collapsed to a single space? 11:20:15 again, suggesting that one should count on the significance or insignificance of white space in html is just plain wrong. html that can't be reformatted for that reason is bad html. 11:20:54 peterhil: "How come W3 does not suggest marking up content like that?" is obviously a weak argument since people already explained that unconventional usage is about correctness and doesn't have to fit to priorities of others 11:20:59 H4ns: that is a too strong affirmation. what about 
?
11:21:44  pmd: counting on how 
 contents is rendered also is not a sign of good html authoring.
11:22:02  H4ns: so, there should be no "white-space" property in CSS?
11:22:07  pmd: good html is easy to work with.  html in which white space is significant is hard to work with.
11:22:12  H4ns: in this line of thought, html authoring is not good authoring at all
11:22:20  i rest my case.
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11:23:01  drl: note that cl-pccre uses regexes, so if you want to replace just a plain string you can use (ppcre:regex-replace-all '(:sequence "abc.") "abc.abcd" "hhh") => "hhhabcd"
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11:26:28  stassats, noted. Thanks. I can see I'm needing to study regexes.
11:26:44  jdz: I see your point. So the indenting should differentiate between block-level and inline tags and content.
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11:27:49  peterhil: to do that correctly, you'll have to consider the css, too.
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11:29:36  H4ns: so what do you do about whitespace that must be there, like indented code snippets? use   all over the place?
11:29:56  H4ns: True, so it might get messy quickly, and the unconventional way is easier to get correct. But it still looks damn ugly.
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11:30:34  pmd: 
 or 
 works quite well...
11:30:59  pmd: i'm just using pre - i'm not so obsessed with correctness.
11:31:25 *peterhil* takes a walk. See you later.
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11:32:03  peterhil: html is ugly. xml is ugly. most (if not all) markup languages are ugly
11:33:36  pmd: I'm beginning to agree. I wish scribe would have won over sgml derived languages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribe_(markup_language)
11:35:53  In 1998 when I first read about XML, it seemed like an amazing idea. But the problem is with all the namespaces and schemas - it is really hard to write by hand and it is resource intensive to parse by computer.
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11:39:43  peterhil: what do you prefer?
11:42:14 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-3.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
11:42:28  Personally, I like XML.
11:42:58  It avoids the problem of stupid people inventing their own stupid representations for their data in stupidly hard to parse formats.
11:43:18  And in return for that I am willing to accept a few warts.
11:43:37  don't people still go ahead and invent their own stupidly complex and hard to use schemas?
11:43:58  No.
11:44:14  fair enough
11:44:36  They tend to use whatever is simplest to do for them.
11:44:49  Zhivago: it doesn't really limit stupid people.
11:45:05  it's general enough to become absolutely awful if badly used :)
11:45:10  And that means that it's fairly easy to guess what the schema is by looking at the text.
11:45:27  (and still ugly enough when used correctly)
11:45:42  Yes, but fortunately XML is sufficiently difficult that stupid people tend not to try to do complex things in it.
11:45:52  i always have problems when parsing XML, my code looks ugly
11:46:08  Zhivago: well ... I have seen too many counter-examples :)
11:46:38  Mostly the problems that I've seen occur when people try to generate xml in an ad hoc fashion.
11:46:58  Anyhow, it's a lot better than what was around earlier.
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11:52:04  Zhivago: xml doesn't solve the problem of reinventing ways to communicate/store data. take for instance the element vs attribute value container
11:52:06 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony
11:52:22  then someone says "attributes are for metadata"
11:52:27  then there are processing instructions
11:53:02  I don't care. Writing the decoding glue is a billion times easier.
11:53:06  then etc. my point: xml is not simple, it serves few purposes and i tend to use it in the most simple ways possibles
11:53:29  Yes. That's what's good at it. You and everyone else tend to use it in the most simple ways possible.
11:53:31  Zhivago: i agree that xml came to help, but it's not the gold chest at the end of the rainbow
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11:53:42  It short-cuts all of the stupidly clever things you might otherwise do.
11:54:51  you mean the reverse don't you? It (XML) blocks them.
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11:55:35  ?
11:56:13  By short-cuts I mean that it skips them.
11:56:17  I would prefer some (dumb) lisp syntax as an exchange format
11:56:33  I wouldn't. There are too many clever things you can do there.
11:56:40  What does (a b c) mean?
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11:57:38  Zhivago: what does   means ? :)
11:59:31  Nothing interesting in xml, which is why no-one would write it.
12:01:12 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
12:02:32  I suppose most of our potential future argument is there http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?XmlIsaPoorCopyOfEssExpressions
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12:03:47  short-circuit would have been the closest appropriate English
12:04:04  which has the opposite meaning from "short-cut"
12:04:29  s/English/American/
12:05:22  koollman: Then you haven't grasped anything that I've said so far.
12:06:02  note: arguing with Zhivago is futile
12:06:04  The good point about xml is that it is hard enough to use that stupid people don't try to do complex things in it, and it's fat enough that smart people don't bother to try to optimize it.
12:06:31  That's the benefit of xml -- people tend to use it in the simplest form that they can get away with due to the pain involved in doing anything else.
12:06:32  Zhivago: then perhaps it's getting too simple to do things in xml
12:07:32  And that makes my life easier when I want to read whatever half-arsed data export you've put together in 10 minutes because your manager made you do it
12:07:59  ok. my typical case : a java application, using xml as a configuration file. There are many ways to do that correctly, but a lot of easy ways to make it completely wrong and unusable
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12:08:39  ok, it would probably be worse if it had it's own config format. But it's not much better with xml
12:09:26  Using xml for configuration files is stupid. I'm talking about it for data interchange.
12:09:56  Generally speaking anything for configuration that isn't either a program or command line arguments is stupid. :)
12:10:03 *stassats* recently cringed at ~/.fonts.conf    true 
12:10:07  what the hell is that?
12:10:28  well it's too late, XML is by now well established as the default vehicle for data interchange and other usages
12:11:15  whatever the propriety of it's model of computation for general use
12:11:21  *its
12:12:03  Zhivago: ok. different uses. I find it ugly for data exchange, but alternatives are often much much worse ... (but I've seen a XML/ASN.1 translator ... It must be painful to write)
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12:13:42  Lycurgus: i'm seeing a lot less xml this year.
12:13:49  and a lot more json/bson
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12:17:25  (setq x 1) should work in my SBCL, but it isn't... what did I do ;_;
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12:17:44  setq wont work with anything anymore
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12:19:03  ismouton, do you get an error?
12:19:13  unbound variable
12:19:21  or undefined
12:19:57  defvar might come in handy.
12:20:06  ismouton, use (defvar x 0) first.
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12:20:46  I dunno, I changed nothing and this just started happening
12:21:29  I mean I am typing (setq x 1) straight into the inferior editor and it wont work
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12:22:03  ism
12:22:26  ismouton, did you use defvar first?
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12:23:53  I know that will make it work
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12:24:41  all my functions that didn't use it before seem to need it  now
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12:25:15  ismouton: maybe you have done the DEFVAR before?
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12:25:48  ismouton: and for sanity sake, use the asterisks for special variables (like *x*)
12:26:16  ismouton, or else use let
12:26:16  ok thanks I just started with lisp but what are the asterisks for?
12:27:16  ismouton: if you just started, then reading a book or two might be good for you
12:27:38  ismouton, the * mark the variable as global.
12:27:42  ismouton: where did you learn to do (setq x 1)?
12:28:01  some source code
12:28:11  drl, ismouton: they [asterisks] don't do anything, just a convention
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12:28:32  ismouton: what source code?
12:28:58  i was reading through lisp tutorials + exampls but I dont have them handy
12:29:04  ismouton: you know, you can't take random code fragments and expect them to work in other completely unrelated contexts
12:29:35  of course
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12:30:19  ismouton: you can use lisppaste to paste the code that's giving you trouble, and people here will help you
12:30:24  I just didnt expect something as variables to seemingly break for no reason
12:30:30  that is all
12:30:31  jdz, well they remind you that the variable is not local. :)
12:30:46  ismouton: There was no variable. It didn't break.
12:30:50  yeah, that is a good enough reason
12:31:09  ismouton: Normally SBCL would give you a warning though.
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12:31:26  and not an error
12:33:09  drl: it is not about reminding about locality of variable, but the behaviour (i.e., it completely changes the semantics of LET binding a special variable)
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12:34:34  jdz, noted. Thanks.
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12:49:03  drl: and, if it was not clear, it's not the asterisks that change the behaviour, but the SPECIAL declaration; the asterisks are there to remind the programmer that the symbol has been declared SPECIAL
12:50:16  drl: www.l1sp.org/cl/special
12:51:16  oh god I see what I did different
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13:08:44  ismouton: ?
13:09:25  I am going to shutup before I feel anymore stupid
13:09:30  cools
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13:32:47  Xach, using your zpb-ttf library, how can I make a string of spaces that is the difference between two strings measured by return-str-len?
13:33:13  jdz, thanks for that link!
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13:52:53  Good afternoon everyone!
13:53:41  hi beach.
13:53:45 urandom__ [~user@p548A42CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
13:54:13  hej beach :)
13:54:31 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu201.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp
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13:58:48  hola, beach
13:59:12  Hi beach!
14:00:28  Xach, using your zpb-ttf library, how can I make a string of spaces that is the difference between two strings measured by return-str-len?
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14:09:08  drl: he's not around.
14:09:21  clhs make-string
14:09:29  boo
14:09:50  drl: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_stg.htm is probably what you're looking for
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14:12:45  dlowe, thanks. I'll read that. The problem is that the words are proportional spaced.
14:13:49  drl: then you can't count on the spaces being a multiple of the length and should think of some other way to indent
14:13:51 -!- beach` is now known as beach
14:14:39  er, you can't count on the width being a multiple of the width of the spaces
14:15:29  moar coffeh
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14:25:51  drl: hello!
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14:27:53  drl: are you still having trouble?
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14:39:38  Xach, yes. I haven't had a chance to read the dlowe posted. Had to play with my grandchildren.
14:41:42  Xach, I'm using a proportional spaced font, and need to pad the shorter of two words with space to make it the same length as the longer word.
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14:43:06  drl: Why?
14:43:23  drl: Oh, "with space". Right. I thought you meant "with spaces".
14:44:40  drl: How are you displaying the strings?
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14:52:44 *Xach* notes git.b9.com seems down again
14:58:09  Xach, sorry for the delay in answering. I keep getting interrupted.
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14:58:39  Xach, yes, with space.
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15:01:35  drl: How are you displaying the strings?
15:01:44  Xach, for now, I'm displaying them in emacs with the Gentium font.
15:02:16  drl: I don't understand the zpb-ttf connection. Where does it get involved?
15:04:25  Xach, Gentium is a unicode font. I'm mixing Greek and English words, to be displayed later in a web page.
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15:05:39  Greek words above English words.
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15:08:28  Xach, sorry. I gave you the name of a function I made using your string-bounding-box.
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15:09:12  So you'd like the words to be aligned with each other?
15:09:28  Do you have any example output that is properly aligned?
15:09:52  anyone read land of lisp?
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15:10:25  Xach, I can make some. Give me a few minutes.
15:10:34  stokachu: i'm pretty sure somebody has read it, yes
15:10:44  just wanted to get their thoughts on it
15:11:03  there was a review on slashdot by one of guys here
15:11:09  All often thought a book like Land of Lisp would be a great text for CL
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15:11:20  ah ill search for that
15:11:22  of course I never had the experience or name to write such
15:11:38  jdz: vsedach doesn't visit very often
15:11:38  s/All/I
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15:11:55  Guthur: You need a name to write a book?
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15:12:06  http://books.slashdot.org/story/10/11/03/1238213/Land-of-Lisp
15:12:27  Xach: yeah, i think i had somebody else in mind
15:13:25  guther: i guess it's the other way around: you write a book to "have a name"
15:13:28  Xach: I think you kind of need to have some sort of 'fame'
15:13:33 <_3b> Xach: well, if you don't have one, all the stores would probably get confused trying to list it by author :p
15:13:51  _3b: ah, very true.
15:13:51  or at least be able to point to significantly visible experience in the related area
15:15:13  Has any of the seasoned Lispers here read Land of Lisp?
15:15:49  I can't say I really like the format of LoL
15:15:56  but I guess it works for some people
15:16:06  I don't like the LoL overloading either :p
15:16:51 homie` [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
15:17:54  Xach, here it is: http://paste.lisp.org/+2I5L
15:18:17 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
15:18:36  Xach, but that is using a mono-spaced font.
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15:19:31 <_3b> drl: seems like something you would want to do with css or html rather than spaces in the text
15:19:31  Xach, I need to use a proportional spaced font to get more on a page.
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15:23:39  _3b, using css or html would not be best for me, as I need to be able to view the columns lined up in Emacs.
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15:24:54 <_3b> well, if you aren't using monospaced font, i wouldn't expect it to line up the same way in multiple renderers
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15:26:19  drl: Interesting. I don't know what you can do, sounds tricky.
15:27:27 *bhyde* surprised by the return value of (ql:system-apropos "asdf-install")
15:27:36 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp
15:28:01  is anyone here an expert on common-lisp.net's internet connection?  drewc perhaps?  I keep having trouble reaching it, with high packet loss, and it looks like some weird routing issue.
15:28:13  bhyde: nil?
15:28:24  http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/mtr-to-common-lisp.net.txt has a good traceroute and a bad one (from two different german ISPs at almost the same time).
15:28:32  And it's been like this for at least days.
15:28:36  lichtblau: no problems from here
15:28:52  lichtblau: i use smokeping from my colo box to track the clnet connection. flat as can be and green for the month of november.
15:29:03  xach: i love nil, one of my favorite symbols; but in this case not so much
15:29:13  bhyde: what did you expect?
15:29:27  lichtblau: what tool did you use ?
15:29:34  lichtblau: my box is in california
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15:30:19  fe[nl]ix: the output is from mtr
15:30:37  xach: i'd assumed that for those sad and lonely systems as yet unknown to ql, i'd fall back on asdf-install, and that i'd use ql to manage my asdf-install install
15:31:06  bhyde: Ah, that never occurred to me. I wonder if asdf-install works on SBCL!
15:31:28  Also, do you know where I can get asdf-install?
15:31:30  _3b, I hope you are wrong.
15:32:01  drl: he's not :p
15:33:06  dlowe, that's what I'm afraid of. :(
15:33:37  xach: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf-install/   ...   git clone git://github.com/gwkkwg/asdf-install
15:34:05  bhyde: Ok, I'll give it a whirl in quicklisp.
15:34:23  bhyde: Did you have a particular sad and lonely system in mind?
15:34:31 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp
15:36:02  xach:   http://www.cliki.net/PLOKAMI    I just happen need it's functionality at this instant
15:36:21  Xach: is asdf-install available through quicklisp?
15:36:32  bhyde: plokami is in quicklisp!
15:36:45  lichtblau: I see moderate packet loss at Vlan1255.icore1.NYY-NewYork.as6453.net, but in general it works
15:36:49  stassats: no
15:37:05  xach silly me, i started with pcap :)
15:37:58 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
15:38:03  bhyde: What you wanna do with it?
15:38:43 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75593e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp
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15:40:17 *bhyde* thinks ...   (ql:quickload "plokami") ....  is just too sweet!
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15:41:14  tcr: i'm converting a few gig of archived data backinto a pcap of the multicast it was distilled from so i can feed that pcap into a testing rig
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15:50:33 *tcr* envisions some slime vodoo to catch undefined-variable and undefined-function warnings, and to put a magic text property on the resulting source buffer note to fix the typo
15:50:53  Xach: some packages in ql have .gitignore files, which are useless.
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15:51:19 *tcr* has a feeling of nostalgia of the times before he became a corporate drone
15:51:45  leo2007: Yes, people put all kinds of odd things in their archives.
15:51:57  tcr: i was thinking about automatically fixing the typo
15:52:11  etoomagic?
15:52:14  based on what restart was selected
15:53:24  i once made for sbcl a restart on undefined-function error to a function with the closest levenstein distance
15:53:34 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-27.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
15:53:49  does slime have compiler annotations per-connection?
15:53:50  it was useless because the source stayed the same
15:53:51  Xach: there are a few systems where I need to modify the paths for external c libs. I assume any modifications will be lost after ql updates. Any solution?
15:54:16  pmd: I don't think so
15:54:23  Or depends on what you mean
15:54:27  leo2007: I don't know, sorry. Why do you need to modify the paths?
15:54:39  leo2007: change the default gcc include paths
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15:55:11  Xach: do you know of a way to make git-archive ignore .gitignore ?
15:55:23  tcr: switch connections (i.e. C-c C-x n) and have the buffers hide the previous connection's compiler annotations and show the new connection's compiler annotations (if any)
15:55:47  if you recompile it
15:55:48  Xach: for example, libffi-unix.lisp (in fsbv) points to (cc-flags "-I/opt/local/include/"), but on my system it should be (cc-flags "-I/usr/local/unix/libffi/include/").
15:55:53  stassats: I was thinking of having a fixup-action on the text property which is invokable by a key binding. Might be applicable to more cases.
15:56:31  Xach: adding "\.gitignore export-ignore" to .gitattributes didn't work here
15:56:54  stassats: OTOH it depends on precise source location tracking
15:56:54  stassats: without recompiling would be nice, but i can't think of a good way to handle buffer changes and hidden annotations
15:57:00  fe[nl]ix: If worst comes to worst, export the tree object, splice out the .gitignore file, re-import it, and create the archive based on the new tree.
15:57:08  fe[nl]ix: I don't know.
15:57:39  pmd: Write a custom function which switches connection and invokes slime-asdf's ,reload-system
15:58:58  nyef: yeah, there might be some way to use tar to filter an archive
15:59:03  stassats: The thing is also that warnings / compiler-notes have no mechanism to invoke restarts for
15:59:32  they should?
15:59:53 -!- gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:00:32  It seems it's what we're looking for. Tight integration of development environment and compiler.
16:00:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
16:02:43  i can't imagine how it would work
16:03:26 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...]
16:04:00  or it shouldn't be called "restarts"
16:05:03  I suggest to become more imaginative :-)
16:05:07  there is a --exclude-vcs option for (GNU?) tar
16:05:15  if it's relevant
16:05:53  tcr: i can't imagine doing this either
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16:13:46 StdDoubt [~pedro@darwin.di.uminho.pt] has joined #lisp
16:14:03  how to remove an element from a list?
16:14:12  clhs remove
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16:14:36  StdDoubt: it will return a list with the element removed
16:14:52 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp
16:14:54  StdDoubt:  may be what you're looking for.
16:14:56  StdDoubt: How do you plan to identify the element that you want removed.
16:15:14  beach: by the position
16:15:47  for instance remove the element at 3rd position from the list '(a b c d e) would return d
16:16:08  StdDoubt: That doesn't remove the element.  That returns it.
16:17:09  StdDoubt: For that, you just do (nth 3 list)
16:17:16 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp
16:17:17  the list is passed as reference right ? I would like the function to return the element and change the list
16:17:43  StdDoubt: no, it's paseed by value.
16:17:53  StdDoubt: You can't always do that though, especially if it the 0th element.
16:18:52 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp
16:19:25 *`3b* wonders how hard it would be to teach slime to C-c C-c or C-c C-k .asd files correctly
16:19:39  `3b: it's an asdf issue
16:19:41 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:19:42  use C-c C-l
16:19:45  when a function is called such as (do-something-with-the-list '(a b c)) what is passed as argument isn't the list reference as value?
16:20:08  StdDoubt: It is a pointer to the first cell of the list.
16:20:09  `3b: it worked in the past, unless i'm misremembering
16:20:25 <`3b> tcr: i thought that wasn't quite correct either
16:20:36  It can't work with C-c C-c, I forgot why it does not work with C-c C-k
16:21:19  What is the most elegant to remove an element from a position of the list and change the list?
16:21:33  StdDoubt: i.e., you can change the object that is refered to as an argument, but you can't change what object any binding in the caller refers to.
16:21:38  StdDoubt: It's not elegant inherently
16:21:41  StdDoubt: return the modified list.
16:21:46 <`3b> tcr: and i realize it is asdf specific, but that doesn't mean slime can't be smart enough to cooperate with asdf :)
16:21:46  StdDoubt: You can't always do that, in particular for the 0th element.
16:21:56  (remove-if (constantly t) list :start position :count 1)
16:22:20 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-bjcjjebcbkeymogr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
16:22:20  `3b: I'm not sure slime can do anything about it, really
16:23:01 davertron [~ddcddavis@vt-bt-254.dealer.com] has joined #lisp
16:23:05  slime can have something like M-x load-the-system-in-this-.asd
16:23:15  C-c C-l?
16:23:16 -!- kaemo is now known as kaem0
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16:23:37  does that work?
16:23:54 <`3b> http://xach.livejournal.com/275663.html suggests not using LOAD
16:23:55  the more elegant way would be to get the element at nth position and then return a new list without that element ?
16:24:21  StdDoubt: You would have to return two values, the nth element, and the modified list.
16:24:29  `3b: I don't know why he wrote that.
16:24:42 -!- kaem0 is now known as kaemo_
16:24:54 -!- kaemo_ is now known as kaemo
16:24:56  i have *d-p-d* in *central-registry*, so whenever i want to load a system not in *c-r*, i just change the directory with C-c C-~ and load-system it
16:25:08  StdDoubt: Something like (values (nth n list) (remove-if (constantly t) list :start n :count 1) as stassats suggested.
16:25:22 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.217.181.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:25:32  thanks
16:25:36  tcr: because "ASDF's system load sets up an environment that a plain load doesn't."
16:25:37  StdDoubt: PROG1 works well for that too
16:25:47  dlowe: It does?
16:26:01  Xach: When does it matter?
16:26:15  tcr: When you write things like (defsystem foo ...)
16:26:26 -!- CrazyEddy [~mission@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:26:26  well, (prog1 (nth n list) (setf list (remove-if ...)))
16:26:29  That's your only point?
16:26:52 dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
16:26:59  tcr: That's the different environment with which I'm most familiar.
16:27:05  I mean yeah for loading you obviously have to explicitly qualify symbols
16:27:50  tcr: The "you" doing the loading is not necessarily the "you" writing the system.
16:28:05  So?
16:28:28  it would be nice if slime-compile-file and slime-load-file dispatched on the file type
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16:28:29  tcr: So in general, I think loading system files is likely to cause problems, and shouldn't be recommended.
16:29:13 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp
16:29:14  (let (nth) (values (remove-if (lambda (x) (setf nth x) t) list :start position :count 1) nth))
16:29:23 CrazyEddy [~portend@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp
16:29:29  Perhaps. I don't like you how you make it sound obtuse in that blog posting
16:30:03 -!- reav_ [~reav_@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~]
16:30:19  I actually wondered what crazy shit asdf does these days when reading it the first time :-)
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16:32:00  dlowe: m-v-prog1, surely
16:32:25  ok, i misread it
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16:36:24  why are all opengl lisp libraries like to nickname gl to their own names ?
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16:36:48  none of them work when clx is already loaded
16:36:49 <`3b> homie: so the code looks like C code?
16:37:01 <`3b> glFoo -> gl:foo
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16:37:16  homie: which nickname would u prefer?
16:37:52 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp
16:37:59  why some people write "u" instead of "you"?
16:38:13  it's not about me preferring some nickname, i wanted to point at some issues with that in my case
16:38:25  stassats: Hardly a fair comparison
16:38:27 *`3b* would prefer no nickname, but hasn't seen a clear winner in mechanism for defining nicknames at site of use yet
16:38:27  stassats: Because they don't master their tools.
16:38:40  Guthur: was that a comparison?
16:38:42  stassats: some people have their phone as their primary interface to the internet
16:38:55 <`3b> homie: it is a known problem, with no good solution that i've heard so far
16:39:13  stassats: Oh, was it just some general unrelated statement then
16:39:38  dlowe: oh, they want to save on traffic, i see
16:39:49  stassats: no, typically they're just too poor
16:39:54  yep, i tried the approach to remove the nick, then make all gl's be the package's own gl like gl->glfw-opengl:gl or some such, without success
16:40:00  stassats: which also means they tend to be more uneducated :/
16:40:08  er, less educated
16:40:53  i should be maybe just unload and unintern any previous packages referring to gl before loading new ones....
16:41:22 <`3b> homie: if you really want multiple loaded, you could just kill the nickname after you load anything that depends on a particular set of bindings
16:41:37 *`3b* votes to just pick one of cl-opengl or glx and stick with that
16:42:31  i love when i get deepest psychological analysis for my short sentences, it is like magic!
16:42:54 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp
16:44:26  kenanb: My wife's an anthropologist and social worker :) I learn lots of odds and ends from her
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16:48:13  how to verify it two association lists are equal at implementation level and at a conceptual level?
16:49:26   StdDoubt: I don't think I understand either of those levels...
16:49:31 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:49:48  define please?
16:49:49  ... Why, oh why, do people keep phrasing things as article titles and then throw a question mark on the end and treat it as a reasonable utterance?
16:50:05 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-199.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
16:50:34  Heh!
16:50:35  Lambda, the ultimate imperative?
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16:51:00  nyef: Plausible deniability, the scourge of our time?
16:51:30  if we have list var list-a = '(a b c) and var list-b = '(a b c). do the lists have the same set of values(conceptual level) are the variables pointing to the same list(implementation level)
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16:51:59  StdDoubt: equal and eq respectively.
16:52:06  StdDoubt: I'm sorry, that question does not make any sense.  (btw, neither of those are association lists...)
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16:52:39  beach: impressive mind reading.
16:53:52  rpg: Really?  Usually *I* am the one who understands nothing and others seem to read minds.
16:54:54  suppose you have '((A . B) (C . D)) how would make a copy of this list; 2º having made a copy how would you verify if both lists are the same or some of he contents were pointing to the initial list?
16:55:28  clhs copy-tree
16:55:32  clhs equal
16:55:42  specbot, goddamn you!
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16:56:27  StdDoubt: Try the following experiment: Go to the permuted symbol index of the CLHS, and look under `copy'.  then read the entries.
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16:57:18  StdDoubt: If you try that experiment, you will find that there is a `copy-alist' function.
16:57:32  but I wanna do it myself to learn
16:57:47  StdDoubt: What do you mean?
16:58:31  define the function that receives as parameter an association list and returns a copy
16:58:41  of the list
16:58:55  StdDoubt: Well, you just have to go away and program it I suppose.
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16:59:25  (defun alist-copy (alist) (copy-alist alist))
16:59:35  :)
16:59:35  my doubt is how can you copy the contents of  cell?
16:59:43  lol
16:59:52  StdDoubt: (cons (car cell) (cdr cell))
17:00:00  (copy-list cons)
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17:00:10  thanks
17:00:16  that was my doubt
17:01:02  stassats: That might copy too much stuff.
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17:05:23  i have a hard time understanding the difference between copy-alist and copy-tree
17:05:48  stassats: I am guessing copy-alist only copies one list level down
17:05:52 <`3b> presumably copy-alist doesn't copy keys or values while copy-tree would
17:05:56 -!- egor_tensin [~egor@217.197.5.81] has quit [Client Quit]
17:06:00 *beach* reading...
17:06:23 *beach* confirms.
17:07:29  stassats: so (eql (caar alist) (caar (copy-alist alist))) => T
17:08:23  any lisp based projects in gsoc this year??
17:08:32  i misunderstood what was meant under "the elements of alist which are conses are also copied"
17:08:46  specifically, the elements
17:09:25  wruthw4lk: Are you referring to this past summer?
17:09:40  yes
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17:11:38  beach: can you suggest any?
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17:58:39  anyone use slime with allegro modern mode?
17:59:53 -!- wruthw4lk [~yash@117.206.10.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:01:51  do you have problems?
18:02:39 *stassats* doesn't like when people ask whether anybody is able to use something, instead of describing their problem
18:04:26 -!- StdDoubt [~pedro@darwin.di.uminho.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:05:38 *beach* agrees with stassats.
18:05:44  cddr: I /have/ used it on occasion, but mostly use SLIME w/ SBCL and ELI with ACL.
18:06:03 new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp
18:07:32  is anybody using stassats convention of describing problems in preference to asking about usage?
18:07:52  Very funny!
18:08:01 <`3b> beach: any chance of getting a look at whatever you have so far for clim3?
18:08:11 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-199.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
18:08:13  bhyde: do you have a problem with such approach?
18:08:25  `3b: Are you sure you really want that?
18:08:52 <`3b> beach: yeah, not intending to use it directly, just looking for ideas for my own GUI experiments :)
18:08:55  `3b: It is very messy, not optimized, not cleaned up, undocumented, preliminary, etc.
18:09:14  stassats: not known not to work, that's i say :)
18:09:18  `3b: Still interested?
18:09:23 <`3b> and i'm too lazy to try to figure out real clim
18:09:23  cddr: I use slime with mlisp. the stuff I use works for me (:
18:09:25 <`3b> beach: sure
18:09:35  `3b: Hold on...
18:09:42 <`3b> not like i can complain since that is the state of most of my projects :)
18:09:49  cddr: I know that the slime asdf extensions weren't working in mlisp. not sure if this got fixed or not
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18:12:28  `3b: dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/climatis.tar  Knock yourself out.
18:12:49  `3b: I didn't make *any* attempt to clean anything up.
18:12:58 <`3b> beach: cool, thanks
18:12:59 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:13:41 *`3b* has too much of a headache to produce code, hopefully reading code will be easier :)
18:13:44 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-199.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
18:13:59  `3b: "Climatis" is the name of the implementation of the "CLIM3" standard, none of which exists.
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18:14:24  [but I thought it was important to separate the two]
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18:16:32 <`3b> how do i turn the .tex file into something intended for reading?
18:16:52  Don't know!  Perhaps pdflatex?
18:16:52  latex .tex?
18:17:05  `3b: Let me check...
18:17:11 <`3b> ah, emacs knows :)
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18:17:44 <`3b> always nice when guessing a key sequence at random actually works :)
18:18:04  pdflatex it is.
18:18:16 <`3b> yeah, i think that is what emacs used
18:18:34  dvi is quite readable too
18:18:41  good to know
18:18:53  except for graphics, iirc
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18:19:16  `3b: I am really not proud of the state of those things.  You have to take them for what they are.
18:19:38  (loop for x being the elements of *something* doesn't work when *something* is a multidimensional array? (sbcl gives me #2A((...)) is not of type sequence
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18:20:11  madnificent: a) it's not a standard loop directive, b) it works only on sequences
18:20:12  or should that be correct and am I doing something else wrong?
18:20:12 <`3b> is that an sbcl extension?
18:20:18  `3b: yes
18:20:34  stassats: ah, I didn't know...  is there another way to loop over the elements correctly?
18:20:40  well, some common lisp idiom, that is
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18:20:56 <`3b> you could index by hand with row-major-aref
18:21:03  (loop for i below (array-total-length array) for element = (row-major-aref array i) ..)
18:21:11 <`3b> or loop over a displaced 1d array
18:21:15  stassats: thanks
18:21:20  array-total-size
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18:21:32  `3b: I only need it there, so I guess that that's the prettier way in this case :)
18:22:29  beach: that spec is pretty big already. pretty readable so far (:
18:22:42  `3b: displacing it could be sexy too though...
18:22:48  and slow
18:23:04  hmmm, point
18:23:11  antifuchs: Thanks.  It may be wrong though! :)
18:23:31  not in principle, but i doubt sbcl will optimize it
18:23:37  sounds like just about any other spec (:
18:23:41 <`3b> beach: well, you doing an incomplete job of simplifying clim2 can't be worse than me doing an incomplete job of learning clim2 followed by trying to simplify from that :)
18:24:12  antifuchs: I would like to do better than that!
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18:25:13  `3b: Perhaps.  But I think I really need help with this one.  The low-level stuff I *think* is solid.  I need help with deciding how much to keep from CLIM2 in the upper levels.
18:25:13 <`3b> and for that matter, i'd rather look at it early, so if i see things that wouldn't work well for my use cases, there is more chance of getting them fixed
18:25:15  do I read in the pixel color alteration part about canvases correctly that you want to eliminate flipping-ink? (:
18:25:20  because I'd really like that (-:
18:25:52  (apart from sounding like somebody is suppressing a cuss, it's really flipping annoying.)
18:25:57  antifuchs: Flipping ink seems like an anachronism.  I haven't given it any thought.
18:26:06  good - kill it plz (-:
18:26:22  antifuchs: Done! :)
18:26:27  yay ((-:
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18:28:49  antifuchs, `3b: perhaps the thing to do is to produce a CLIM3 spec that is pretty much like the CLIM2 spec, but with the things cleaned up that we know about, i.e., keep everything else, like gestures, application frames, events, you name it, and then aim for a CLIM4 etc spec where more and more things are cleaned up.  I can't decide...
18:29:20  antifuchs, `3b: Either way, if I could get some help with this, it would really be appreciated.
18:29:44  that sounds like way more work than going through clim2 once and modernizing what you can, throwing away stuff that's proven itself burdensome
18:29:50  I think your current approach is right
18:30:12  totally revise it, optimize for new users. (:
18:30:34  sure - I'll try to help where I can (:
18:30:43 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050065173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
18:30:47  That would be absolutely fantastic.
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18:33:04  antifuchs, `3b: I am fairly sure the low-level stuff is fine, even though the implementation doesn't do the obvious optimizations.  But I get lost on the level of application-frames, gadgets, etc.  I do know that we can merge things like tabling output records and table panes.
18:33:18  cool
18:33:59  antifuchs: yeah, but to produce something coherent, all that needs to be decided, and I am just not smart enough to do that by myself.
18:35:16  how can you declare the type for a parameter so all functions know the type?
18:35:27  a *parameter* that is
18:35:35 <`3b> declaim?
18:36:20  `3b: I must've mistyped earlier, it gave me an error :)
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18:38:32 <`3b> beach: might be nice to allow for (or at least not completely exclude) the possibility of non-opaque pixels at the canvas level
18:39:03  `3b: Yeah, forget about the canvas.  I don't think it's important.
18:39:31  `3b: Like I said, it's a mess!  Sorry!
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18:41:19  `3b: The important part is the hierarchy of zones with relative coordinates where we can optimize updates so that in most cases (small/minor modifications, scrolls) things will be very fast.
18:41:26 <`3b> beach: not complaining, just suggesting something you might not have considered due to different target platforms, etc :)
18:41:53  `3b: Sure, thanks!
18:42:36  `3b: I am sure you see why I need some people to discuss this with.
18:44:03 <`3b> hmm, not sure about integer coordinates with upper-left origin
18:44:18  That I can explain.
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18:46:06  `3b: It doesn't exclude other possibilities.  I am just saying that as long as you stick to those, then the system provides help by optimizing redisplays.  The moment you use non-integer coordinates, or more complex transformations, you are on your own, from that part of the hierarchy and downwards.
18:47:05 <`3b> ok, that might be reasonable
18:47:32  `3b: A major problem with the CLIM2 spec is that it allows for arbitrary regions and transformations on every level.  But there is no way that output recording is going to work in a sheet with a weird transformation.
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18:49:34 *`3b* suspects positive integer coordinates wouldn't actually be any faster for my potential target platforms, so would be nice to still have the option for more complexity
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18:50:07  Did I say they need to be positive?  I hope not!
18:50:16  beach: where can one read more about clim3? (google not quite helpful except one small pdf by you)
18:51:07 <`3b> ok, so by upper left, you just mean positive axes point right and down, not that there is actually an upper-left corner of the infinite plane :)
18:51:19  udzinari: For one thing, it doesn't exist.  If you need to read about the current (messy) state, downlowd from the URL that I gave to `3b.
18:51:44 <`3b> beach: ah, i misread the 'upper-left
18:51:47 <`3b>  part anyway
18:51:51  beach: ok, ty. already downloaded :)
18:52:00  `3b: As I recall, the CLIM2 spec says that output records are "rectangular",  but it doesn't say whether this is with respect to the device transformation or something else.  In practice, it only works in the cases that I explicitly want to mention in the CLIM3 spec.
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18:52:02 <`3b> the origin is relative to the zone, not the plane, that makes sense
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18:53:10  gridlock looks interesting
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18:54:01 *beach* is excited about the discussion about CLIM3, but somewhat unprepared, so waffling a bit.  Sorry!
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18:58:42 *`3b* might lean more towards trying to specify useful behavior for the complex cases, rather than getting rid of them
18:59:03  antifuchs, `3b:  I don't want to pressure you or anything, but if you feel interested and competent, or if you know anyone else who is, I am *very* interested in some close collaboration to make the CLIM3 spec progress.
18:59:23  `3b: In CLIM2?
18:59:41  That's definitely a possibility.
19:00:14  will keep that in mind (:
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19:00:34  `3b: I do insist on merging sheets and output records though.
19:00:44  right now, we're in allegrograph crunch mode, but as soon as there's some non-crunch time available, I'll go over it in detail
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19:00:59  antifuchs: Deal!!!
19:01:15  beach: I always found one of the difficulties of CLIM2 was that the abstraction layers were not as apparent to me as I needed.  I could never find a level of abstraction where I could work happily.  I kept unpredictably falling through to bottom layers.
19:01:18 <`3b> beach: yeah, it sounds like clim2 has lots of assumptions about implementation details exposed more than they should be
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19:02:01  rpg: I am willing to believe you, but that doesn't sound like my own experience.
19:02:10  beach, Why don't you make it a more visible community project?
19:03:14  beach: so you were able to work happily at higher levels of the abstraction, or did you simply find that it didn't bother you that the levels got mixed up?  I am curious...
19:03:46  Guthur: Because I know from experience that it won't help anything most of the time.  These days I do things the other way around:  Should there be others interested, I may make the effort of turning int into a cl.net project.  This was the case for SICL, so I did.
19:04:09 <`3b> my perspective is from wanting something to use with flash and opengl, both of which are completely happy with arbitrary floating point transforms for output, and flash even handles routing input to arbitrarily transformed objects
19:04:12  rpg: The former, I think.
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19:05:54  `3b: That could work, but then you have to define what it means to draw half a black pixel, and then later on the other half, black as well.  That just isn't well defined in general. And I would be unwilling to make a decision such as "use Flash semantics".
19:07:26  ... and last time I looked, OpenGL didn't handle that very well either.
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19:09:26  bhyde: asdf-install seems to load ok for me, so it will be in the next dist update.
19:10:13  `3b: More specific example: Suppose I want to draw a black rectangle (0,0), (0,1), (1,1), (1,0).  Now suppose I divide it into two triangles: (0,0), (0,1), (1,0) and (0,1), (1,1), (1,0).  Do I still get a black rectangle?
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19:11:28 *`3b* suspects 'yes but i don't remember how' isn't a useful answer :)
19:11:31  beach: the other thing I could never bash through my head was the way gadgets and present/accept interacted.  I understand this is not a problem with most CLIM programmers, but it was for me.
19:12:29  `3b: You don't because the pixel will be half black in both drawings, and then multiplied so that it will be 0.75 black which is not desired in this case.
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19:12:43  xach: thanks, and i hope it doesn't cause trouble
19:13:07  rpg: yes, all that I expect to clean up in CLIM3.
19:14:05 <`3b> beach: well, GL pretty much only draws triangles these days, and draws some pretty complex stuff without gaps :)
19:14:36  beach: Here's one thing that bothered me about CLIM that might be fixable (or might not):  a thing I found really useful when developing in tcl/tk was the way I could build a bit of the UI, and it could work stand-alone, or be incorporated in a larger application.
19:15:03  beach: In CLIM the notion of an application frame makes a much harder distinction against frames that cannot function alone.
19:15:05  `3b: I am willing to believe that, but I am not willing to belive that it can read your mind these days.
19:15:09 <`3b> beach: compositing 2 separate drawings is a problem though
19:15:27  beach: that made interactive, exploratory development harder.
19:15:34  rpg: I definitely agree with you about that.
19:15:54  `3b: That's exactly what I am referring to.
19:15:55 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-149-82.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
19:17:08  `3b: So if you have two separate panes/gadgets/output-records whatever that overlap and they don't have integer coordinates, how do you tell the underlying draing engine what the relation is?
19:18:08  `3b: Unless, of course, you assume that all your backends are Flash or OpenGL.
19:18:30  But I am not willing to do that, because I would like it to work on my computer.
19:19:49  beach: you use a computer that cannot run opengl?
19:19:57  `3b: I'm sorry, as I said, I wasn't prepared for this discussion, so I haven't thought out my worries enough.
19:20:24 <`3b> beach: not like i'm doing any better :)
19:20:42  Fade: When I use my Nvidia driver, my computer crashes, and when I don't it's slow (Ubuntu 10.04)
19:21:08  :(
19:22:26  Fade: In fact, I have never succeeded in even running the simplest OpenGL demo on any of the (fairly standard) computers I have owned so that the output looked good enough for a CLIM backend, even with the help of gilberth.
19:22:34  beach: Ouch. And the nouveau driver isn't useful either?
19:22:47 Blkt [~user@net-93-151-226-225.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp
19:22:54  nyef: Don't know.  I just use the menu system.
19:23:11  beach: I managed ok with 2d opengl
19:23:13  I have a lot of ubuntu machines with nvidia graphics... the binary driver makes me crazy, but it is stable enough to use, at least on the hardware I have.
19:23:25  good evening everyone
19:23:31  hello Blkt
19:23:35 *nyef* would, at some point, like accelerated opengl on his main system, but if it conflicts with hibernate, hibernate wins.
19:23:47  hi beach
19:24:01 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu]
19:24:05 *`3b* wonders how hard the openvg sample implementation would be to port to CL
19:24:07  My experience is that OpenGL works fine for graphics, but sucks for text.  I just haven't been able to make it work at all.
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19:25:11 <`3b> usually you just render text to a texture using freetype or whatever, and draw that, not much opengl related aside from getting the coordinates right
19:25:37 *`3b* wants to try some of the shader-based curve drawing stuff though
19:25:52  beach: I blitted a set of letters to a texture and then just drew a bunch of polygons with texture offsets
19:26:02  http://bitmuse.com/tmp/wth-26.png
19:26:05  `3b: I repeat, I am not smart enough (or at least too ignorant) for this.
19:26:08  that's in CL, too
19:26:12 <`3b> not that requiring gl3+ would be suitable for general use thanks to intel's horrible driver situation :(
19:27:02  dlowe: What part of that am I supposed to look at?
19:27:36  beach: the wonderfully rendered text, of course :D
19:28:02  i and l don't look great
19:28:09  dlowe: That text rendering would be unexceptably bad for CLIM3.
19:28:42  well, I was using a fairly crummy font, too
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19:29:10  dlowe: Come back when you have a better example.
19:29:21 *beach* remains unconvinced.
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19:30:56 <`3b> beach: it isn't hard (though not always obvious either) to use GL to draw a texture to screen 1:1 texture pixels to screen pixel
19:31:04  In fact, I have never been able to render two triangles like the ones above in OpenGL without a visible diagonal line.
19:31:34 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp
19:32:13  `3b: I am willing to believe you.  I just don't know how to do it.  In fact, I don't even know enough about OpenGL to really grasp what a texture is.
19:32:20 *`3b* isn't arguing that you should be implementing things in GL, just don't reject things you admit to not knowing how to use :0
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19:33:20  `3b: Oh, I agree with you.  But I can only do things that I know about, or that would require a modest learning investment.
19:33:29 <`3b> at the simplest, a texture is just an array of pixels (or texels if you prefer)
19:33:55  `3b: I think most people would term that an "image" :)
19:34:00  `3b: That explanation doesn't help, I'm afraid.
19:34:28  `3b: But this isn't a good time to teach me either.
19:34:31 <`3b> then when you draw something, you include a mapping from the coordinate system of the texture to the coordinate system of the object, which is then transformed to screen coordinates during rendering
19:34:51 <`3b> beach: fair enough, gl isn't really what i'd want to use for deciding what to implement anyway :)
19:35:26 <`3b> dlowe: doesn't have to be an image, though that is a common usage
19:35:49  `3b: I guess I need for someone to explain to me how to render excellent text this way.
19:36:50 <`3b> beach: well, if you can render excellent text into an in-memory bitmap, the ability to render that to screen without any distortion reduces the GL case to that at worst
19:36:57  I talked to manic12 at the ILC about this issue;  it seems like a lot of work to get all the details right.
19:37:08  And I want to make it clear that I think current Ubuntu/Linux/GNU rendering of Truetype is way below the quality I am aiming for.
19:37:39 *`3b* finds it too inconsistent to make any assessment :/
19:38:02  isn't truetype rendering somewhat hindered in the GNU/Linux world by patents that apple holds?
19:38:05  `3b: And that's what I have been doing so far, but then I don't care whether the backend is OpenGL or an X11 image object.
19:38:15  Fade: Correct.
19:38:23 *`3b* hopes we can finally get over this stupid 100 dpi thing and get nice displays one of these days
19:38:59  kind of a shitty circumstance.
19:39:51  `3b: So we are back to "sure, use OpenGL, it's really great, but all you can do is give it pixels to render", and I don't quite understand how that is better than just giving X11 a client-side picture object.
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19:40:33 <`3b> beach: that's where the stuff about me wanting to try out fancier techniques and require high-end hardware comes in
19:41:08 <`3b> beach: but i think we are focusing too much on gl at the moment
19:41:12  `3b: That's fine with me as long as rendering quality is not compromised.
19:41:23  Not me.
19:41:37 <`3b> i'd also point at cairo, flash, openvg, svg etc
19:41:52 <`3b> as examples of feature sets that might be nice to have
19:42:09  Fade: The technology is shitty anyway.  Because of static languages like C they use an interpreted language to move control points around.  I know how to do that better, by using Metafont-like technology with a dynamic language like Lisp.
19:42:27  interesting
19:42:40  `3b: As long as rendering quality is fine, sure, I think that is good.
19:43:05  Fade: I have been using it in Gsharp for quite some time.
19:44:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:44:44  what is the most updated/maintained gui toolkit?
19:45:05 <`3b> stokachu: for lisp? web browers :p
19:45:21 <`3b> stokachu: probably followed by qt bindings
19:45:34  stokachu: If this is your unit of measure, then your project might be in trouble.
19:46:02 <`3b> or possibly the commercial lisps' gui stuff, always forget about those
19:46:04  dont worry its not :)
19:46:06  stokachu: Too bad you didn't follow my lectures over the past couple months.
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19:46:39  is it lispworks that has CAPI?
19:46:40  stokachu: Yes, what `3b said!  LispWorks CAPI.
19:47:13  stokachu: there are tk gtk and qt bindings for CL.
19:47:18  and there's CLIM
19:47:40 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp
19:48:31  ok cool
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20:16:20  hi, is it possible that some OS don't support threads?
20:17:08  francogrex: yes
20:17:24  OpenBSD is known to not support real threads.
20:17:26  how would one know
20:17:35 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:17:43  A first clue is the lack of any threading APIs...
20:17:44  I'm using DSL (knoppix)
20:17:51 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp
20:17:57  Failing that, look at the implementation of the threading APIs...
20:18:01 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
20:18:06  DSL is Linux 2.4 still, isn't it?
20:18:23  yes, on an old PC
20:18:30  Ouch.
20:18:59  That might still be using LinuxThreads instead of the newer implementation.
20:20:56  probably. Anything I'm trying build with threads enabled fails miserably
20:22:24 vieq [~lc@metabug/vieq] has joined #lisp
20:23:37  Don't use LinuxThreads.
20:23:53  it's totally broken
20:24:01 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
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20:24:27  how to get past that? how would I use non-linux threads on a linux?
20:24:39  you need to use kernel 2.6
20:24:47  it's like ./configure --enable-threads ..
20:24:48  LinuxThreads is the name for the OLD linux threading library
20:24:50  ah ok
20:24:56  NPTL is the name for the new non-broken one
20:25:00  er, NTPL
20:25:32 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:25:45  it's been like 10 years since it was released...
20:25:58 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
20:26:18 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.35] has joined #lisp
20:27:32  yeah well I have 4 PC and revived a very very old one with DSL
20:27:49  don't use threads on it then. :)
20:27:53 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.61.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:28:11  i have ecl (no threads) and cmucl and emacs and everything...
20:28:51  right, no threads.
20:29:45  it sucks though, when you get used to threads, running multiple processes...
20:30:19 snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp
20:32:44 -!- rme [rme@clozure-AC1C217F.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme]
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20:32:54  I guess as a(poor) alternative one would just open several sessions of the application
20:34:14  you could install software versions less than 10 years old...
20:35:14  let's not get radical.
20:35:22  you mean OS. yes I have on the other PCs, it's just this one man it'sram is 32 MB!
20:36:11 <`3b> doesn't cmucl have non-os threads?
20:37:08 <`3b> not sure how well it would like the 32MB part though
20:37:12  Yes, you could install software from 10 years ago, then.
20:37:26 *Xach* installs mastodon linux
20:37:26  Any threaded software written 10 years ago is going to run fine on LinuxThreads. :)
20:38:30 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.109.123] has quit [Disconnected by services]
20:38:41 DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
20:39:02  LinuxThreads did the thing, back in the days. So much better than what was before.
20:39:09 francogrex [~user@109.130.109.123] has joined #lisp
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20:39:37  yeah, I don't even remember what it replaced...fully userspace threads in glibc or something like that?
20:40:02  yeah, some really lame userspace GNU pthreads implementations
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20:44:50  http://www.gnu.org/software/pth/ ?
20:45:04  I like this: "Additionally Pth provides an optional emulation API for POSIX.1c threads ("Pthreads") which can be used for backward compatibility to existing multithreaded applications."
20:45:19  I don't think that's "backward" compatibility. >:)
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20:48:31  Fare:  Got a minute?
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20:54:57  yes
20:55:13 imran_sr [~imran@75-18-254-4.lightspeed.uncyca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
20:55:28  hi Xach, I saw on some blog that you were not too thrilled about linkedIn, may I ask why?
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20:58:43  foom: sounds like it
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21:06:39  Well, maybe I can try it in cmucl then. what's an example of running two processes simultanoeusly there? in ecl is (mp:...)
21:08:23  francogrex: Note that CMUCL multithreading is x86-only and is a green thread implementation (single OS thread, multiple Lisp threads).
21:08:34  Cooperative green threading, at that.
21:08:44 -!- claint [~user@88.243.132.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:08:51 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp
21:09:04  that green thread can work on 8 cpu box?
21:09:52  Yes, of course. But it'll only load down one of the CPUs.
21:10:19  askatasuna: why would you need linkedin? isn't it just a fancy contacts.txt?
21:14:11  trigen: This is not really a good place to discuss it.
21:14:12  trigen: was just curious about a remark by Xach. he straightened it out for me.
21:14:20  i agree with Xach
21:14:30  ok ;)
21:16:59 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-218-178.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
21:17:12  since you guys were talking about threads, let me ask a semi-related question
21:17:22  has anyone used cl-muproc?
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21:21:51  no,
21:21:56  dlowe: was that your game you pasted a screenshot of earlier?
21:22:04  regarding font rendering
21:22:11 -!- vieq [~lc@metabug/vieq] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:22:13  askatasuna: but you got me interested to find out
21:22:22  askatasuna: Fare ought to know a bit about it...
21:22:26  Guthur: yeah. been abandoned a long time :/
21:22:47  dlowe, Adventure game?
21:23:04  Guthur: was kind of like a 2-d minecraft
21:23:18  oh ok, sounds interesting
21:23:34  when I mean a long time, I mean like 2004
21:23:35  http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?AnnoyanceProportionalityPrinciple, wow, this is so so true
21:23:35  any write ups regarding the experience
21:23:41  so it's like a dwarf fortress clone then?
21:24:08  no, no. just a multiplayer thing where you can plop tiles down
21:24:29  heh
21:24:31  we were gonna make it into some multiplayer MUD type thing, but my partner ran out of steam
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21:25:11  dlowe, Shame, sykopomp was working on a MUD recently
21:25:13  OpenGL + CL was very pleasantly easy to work with
21:25:29  dlowe, Were you using cl-opengl?
21:25:34  not sure if it existed back then
21:25:40  history told us that you can make millions of $$$ with "just a single/multiplayer thinng where you can plop tiles down"
21:25:42  Guthur: yeah, cl-opengl and cl-sdl
21:25:43  ;-)
21:25:56  pr: it wasn't history back then *chuckle*
21:26:02  heh
21:26:11  but yeah, if I had only known
21:26:21  dlowe: It looks like you guys got reasonably far
21:26:35  Yeah. That was with sbcl 0.8 something
21:26:41  It's hard with ambitious projects to stay the distance
21:27:39  I need to pick up cl-opengl again, it makes for enjoyable projects
21:27:42  I've still got a real MUD, though, that people are playing, and I've been rewriting that in CL
21:27:58  so that's consuming nearly all my free cycles lately
21:28:46  dlowe, cool, which MUD?
21:31:32 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp
21:31:39  oh, vaguely related, ACM are associated with this years Global Game jam
21:31:42  Guthur: http://tempusmud.net/
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21:33:02  I'd like to put together a CL framework to take to the next GGJ
21:33:14 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
21:33:53  when i said 'this year's'  I meant 2011
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21:35:26  dlowe: nice site, how much is written in CL?  Is it open source?
21:35:50  spratt: None atm. I have a rewrite in progress
21:35:54  I was about to say
21:36:03  that is a really pretty site
21:36:13  I've only got one game written in CL, a tradewars type game
21:36:14 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-218-178.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
21:36:50  dlowe: neat.  Why are you rewriting it?
21:36:53  dlowe, what has been you peak concurrent player count
21:37:28  Guthur: 52 players in 2002. These days it's about 18 or so.
21:37:48 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
21:38:25  cool, I'd say if you upped the marketing side you could increase that
21:39:03  Maybe it is already pretty visible, I'll admit I don't follow MUDs that much
21:39:04  spratt: it's 150k lines of C++ and not very nice to work with.
21:39:22 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl]
21:39:42  hi
21:39:50  askatasuna: yes?
21:39:52  hey Fare
21:39:55  dlowe: *shudder* gotcha.
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21:41:34  dlowe: Will the rewrite be open source?
21:42:09  spratt: hard to decide. It can take the mystery out if the players decide to mine it for advantage
21:43:00  it'd be easier if the system had more separation between the driver and the game data
21:43:10  dlowe: i was just going to suggest that
21:43:23 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...]
21:44:07  that's a pretty hard project in itself, though
21:45:11  dlowe: I see your point.  On the other hand, you might be able to use that to your advantage if you can detect that folks are gaming the system and modify the code base accordingly.
21:45:39  is it an error to write (asdf:defsystem :name ...) or is it equal to (asdf:defsystem name ...)?
21:46:05 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-218-178.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
21:48:05  Blkt: it's the same
21:48:26  thanks
21:52:59 xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp
21:54:09  cl-muproc isn't actively used or developed that I know :-/
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21:56:07  Fare: Indeed. Whatever happened to philip-jose? You always had little distributed projects on the back burner as I recall. Is there something you're going back to looking at after XCVB? (heh. *after*)
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22:00:58  fe[nl]ix: are you sure about that? (defmacro defsystem (name &body options) ...)
22:01:30  looks to me like it will cack if you don't give it a name (w/o any keyword fanciness).
22:01:46  Blkt: Do what's save.  Just do (asdf:defsystem  ...)
22:01:51  s/save/safe/
22:02:13  rpg: that's incorrect
22:02:16  try it
22:02:20 <`3b> what's wrong with using a keyword for the name?
22:02:31 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:02:36  no symbol then
22:02:39 *`3b* assumed it just used symbol-name internally anyway
22:02:43 -!- scgilardi [~scgilardi@c-71-192-85-172.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
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22:03:30  oh noes, where's minion ?
22:03:39  I was looking after it too...
22:03:41  fe[nl]ix: I just cut that out of asdf.lisp.
22:04:28 *`3b* cuts  (string-downcase (symbol-name name)) out of asdf.lisp and presents it as evidence
22:04:50 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
22:05:00  rpg: time to add it back, then
22:05:22  fe[nl]ix: It's been out for a long time.  Let me see if I can figure out the blame...
22:05:48  fe[nl]ix: I don't believe :name has ever been in the defsystem grammar, has it?
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22:06:25 *`3b* wonders if we are interpreting the original question the same way
22:06:43  blame shows me the defsystem arglist in its present form as dating back to Dan B.
22:06:52 <`3b> i read it as asking is NAME and :NAME are both valid to pass to the name argument of defsystem
22:07:18  rpg: the name is either a string(to be taken literally) or a symbol(whose name is downcased)
22:07:20  OH!  Sorry.  I thought you were saying "Can I flag the name as a keyword argument?"
22:07:21 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*]
22:07:41 -!- davertron [~ddcddavis@vt-bt-254.dealer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
22:07:41  The example would have been more clear if we hadn't been using the parameter name in the example.
22:07:57  If you had said (defsystem :foo ...) I would have gotten it...
22:08:17  I thought you were asking if (defsystem :name foo ...) was acceptable.
22:08:40  philip-jose has bitrotten somewhat
22:08:55  redline6561, I may resurrect it for the needs of xcvb. Or not.
22:09:06  Fare: Good to know. Thanks.
22:09:15 francogrex [~user@109.130.109.123] has joined #lisp
22:09:25  I think I need a good but simple persistence library at this point.
22:09:35  elephant ?
22:10:45  askatasuna: cl-muproc seems like what one needs in a sytem lacking threads
22:11:06  it's twisted and not very straightforward though
22:12:08  philip-jose has a great "green threads on top of arnesi's call/cc library" thingie.
22:12:20 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:12:38  should be ported to using delico instead.
22:13:18 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-nlcswrapkzfoljgr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:13:31   [Condition of type CCL::COMPILER-BUG]
22:13:43  hey ccl catches own bugs!
22:14:19  rpg: my fault, I misused "name" as "my-package-name"
22:14:48 <`3b> Blkt: "my-system-name" you mean, right? :)
22:15:03  yes
22:15:10  It's obviously Friday afternoon and time for me to go get a beer and not try to make sense any more.
22:15:24  I'm off!  You'll have to confuse yourselves without my help now.
22:15:47 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp
22:16:37  Fare, Do you have some succinct example code of the Interface Passing Style in CL?
22:17:01 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:17:13 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-91.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp
22:17:21  Guthur: look at the pure/ directory in fare-utils
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22:17:36  notably its pure "hash table" implementation.
22:17:37  fare, cheers
22:18:05  drewc wanted to split it out of fare-utils into a "lisp interface library" lil.
22:18:37  Could be nice to have around
22:18:53  I have a problem that seems to begging for it
22:18:54  Heh. Nice.
22:19:02  to/to be
22:19:16  what problem is that?
22:20:04  its a message passing API
22:20:31  but i would like to use the Recv method to get different representations of the message depending on interface
22:20:52 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:21:14 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp
22:21:27  It's raw form is a foreign struct, with a pointer to an array of octets
22:21:52  yup, IPS seems like it would work for you.
22:21:57 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:22:31  Seemed like it would fit nicely, I'll have a look through your code for inspiration, cheers
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22:40:44  it's pretty straightforward - I hope. But I welcome any remarks - even about missing comments.
22:40:46  and code, too.
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22:50:02  Fare: I'll certainly pass on any feedback.
22:50:32  just finishing off one of the SICP videos here before I really dive in
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23:03:01  Has anyone used lispbuilder-sdl on OS X?
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23:08:17  drdo, Is there a problem on OS X?
23:09:21  Guthur: closing the window doesn't seem to work
23:10:20 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp
23:10:41  drdo, balooga is usually the man to see about lb-sdl issues
23:10:48  haven't seen him around in the a while though
23:11:00  the ML is the probably the best option
23:11:33  The lb-sdl devs are usually very prompt
23:11:54 merAch [~ray@ip65-46-63-114.z63-46-65.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp
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23:15:58  g'day all...
23:16:12  anyone here has any pointers on using vim for lisp development?
23:16:44  bulters: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52 has some good general advice
23:16:52  bulters: not vim-specific, though.
23:17:27 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.241] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die]
23:19:18  Xach: thanks
23:19:51  Guthur: Thanks, unfortunately the mailing list link on the lb site doesn't seem to be working
23:19:55 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: A poorly written script will replace me shortly.]
23:20:46  really, hope lb has died or something
23:21:50 -!- dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
23:22:00  why's that?
23:23:14  seems like a lot of people find it quite useful
23:23:26  vim and lisp seems like a sin to me
23:23:48  and it was very actively developed
23:23:56  Guthur: why do you hope it has died, then?
23:23:57  and maintained
23:24:00  Guthur: So you hope it died because people find it useful?
23:24:02  oh
23:24:03  oops
23:24:06  typo
23:24:14  merAch: I'm thinking elisp is a bigger sin.
23:24:22  agreed
23:24:22  hasn't*
23:24:40  sorry my bad should have checked my message
23:25:01  that was fun while it lasted
23:25:08 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:25:11  lb-sdl works well on linux, but there seems to be some weirdness going on on OS X
23:25:39  merAch: Vim is a tool, just like Emacs could be... I just like the Vim grip better than the emacs grip
23:26:34  bulters: use what you like. most people here use emacs. seems easier to me, ymmv.
23:27:22  bulters: I prefer vim mostly. Just not for lisping.
23:27:49  Xach: I known I'm like 'swearing in a church'. Just can't get my hands (fingers) around emacs chords
23:28:03  bulters: You will find it harder to get support. That's about it. No one cares if you use vim :)
23:28:33  schmrkc: Good to hear. Get a lot of "just use textmate" during the day already ;-)
23:28:51  Ya whatever work for you, use that.
23:29:02  bulters: using vi is a penance, not a sin :)
23:29:31 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp
23:29:56  drdo: So vimscript is like a cicile? :P
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23:30:54 -!- coyo [~tama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
23:31:49  bulters: did you mean cilice?
23:32:19 -!- trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has quit []
23:32:31  Blkt: It's late... that's my only excuse, but yes, I meant cilice
23:33:14  I was just curious, not excuses needed :)
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23:34:20  I'd reckon they have goats on Sicily, but I don't think they make undergarment from their fur.. :P
23:36:43  lol
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