00:00:23 CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has joined #lisp 00:00:27 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.239.54] has joined #lisp 00:01:14 I'm on a mac, what lisp implementation do you guys recomend? 00:01:27 brandonz [~brandon@c-24-23-169-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:31 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:01:31 CodingStream: SBCL, Clozure CL 00:02:48 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:21 watching through the SICP videos, just got to the bit where they define cons in terms of lambda, I've been using lambdas but it's still cool to see it 00:04:28 clisp 00:04:43 never thought of doing something like that, it's sweet 00:04:49 CodingStream: Use clisp if you want to write cross platform lisp programs easily. clisp works on mac, windows, unix. 00:04:58 CodingStream: use ccl if you want good Cocoa integration. 00:05:17 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:25 pjb: Okay, portability is very important to me 00:06:12 sbcl is nice too, but it's not really production ready. The windows port is in progress, and I can't compile it on my Linux x86_64, so... 00:07:50 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-199-139.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:21 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:37 in case anyone is interested in the coolness of it http://paste.lisp.org/display/116783 00:09:19 Guthur: this is not cool you're using numbers. 00:09:46 this better be cool 00:10:23 pjb, hehe, which would you prefer 00:10:26 what* 00:10:29 son, i am disappoint 00:11:02 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-206-84.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:11:13 -!- devinus_ [~devinus@65.107.181.222.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:12:27 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:12:35 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116783#1 00:12:38 better? 00:13:15 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@76-10-165-4.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:13:47 No. You should use only lambda. 00:14:27 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:47 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 00:15:53 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116783#3 00:16:14 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-206-30-170.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:16:20 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 00:16:20 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 00:16:20 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 00:16:25 i wish 00:16:33 mit didnt insist on sats 00:16:43 these sicp videos look so good 00:17:42 pjb: hehe I was about to paste that, you beat me to it 00:18:28 jconrad, they are pretty good vis 00:18:33 vids* 00:18:35 aidalgol [~user@118.148.162.231] has joined #lisp 00:18:46 antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:39 I wish the lectures I had at uni had been up to that quality 00:19:54 -!- antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:54 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:55 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:20:47 yea i just spent a year at uni, the lectures/tutorials were so bad i left 00:21:01 hehe I think I will become obsessed with lambda all over again... 00:21:33 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:21:40 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:53 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 00:22:08 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:24 Guthur: have fun, implement CL in lambda calculus! 00:23:46 pjb: I would actually find it loads of fun. 00:23:57 need sleep now though 00:23:59 night all 00:24:03 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:25:25 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.89] has joined #lisp 00:25:31 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:00 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:02 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:29:31 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Quit:] 00:30:47 devinus_ [~devinus@cpe-66-68-82-202.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:11 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:35:29 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:43:47 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:47:05 is ccl or sbcl faster? 00:48:17 <_3b> depends on what you are doing 00:48:38 <_3b> and how you are measuring 00:49:15 -!- netytan [~netytan@host81-141-51-226.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:49:27 <_3b> ccl usually compiles things faster, sbcl usually optimizes better 00:49:49 i see 00:49:56 <_3b> (at least with my code, someone that knows ccl better might be able to make it go faster) 00:50:01 can't freakin decide which i want to use... 00:50:26 one most code is public domain, so i can tinker a lot with the code, the other is LLGPL... 00:50:27 <_3b> pick one at random, and avoid implementation specific code, then you can try both later 00:50:29 hrm... 00:50:39 yeah, probably what i'll do 00:51:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:51:23 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:51:28 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has joined #lisp 00:51:50 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:52:01 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 00:53:08 bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:14 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.239.54] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:53:28 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7882.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:58:46 rme: What version did you test ~r on? On my mac with 1.5, ccl prints out part of the answer and then errors out, or succeeds because the float was actually an integer. 00:58:48 benny [~benny@i577A82BB.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:59:43 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:10 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-148-35-131.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:01:22 rtoym: I appear to have been mistaken. I only read source code; I didn't actually test it. 01:03:15 I must have been looking in the wrong place. Sorry about that. 01:03:18 Reminds me of Knuth: "Beware of bugs in the above code. I have only proved it correct, not tried it." 01:04:52 I never quite understood the point of trying to formally prove algorithms, you then have two things to debug ;) 01:04:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 01:05:52 Not a fan of formal verification either. It seems like a desperate attempt to take the fun out of programming or something. 01:08:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-95.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:32 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:09:59 rme: No problem. I was just wondering how you got that result. It seems pretty much to match what cmucl and clisp do. 01:10:00 I somewhat understand the point, and there are some interesting applications for things like proof-carrying code. 01:11:39 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Quit: felipe] 01:11:40 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 01:12:48 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.17] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:12:51 paste.lisp.org promised to post this ... "All promise outruns performance" 01:14:02 bhyde: Yes, known issue: The announce to #lisp has been disabled due to paste-spamming, but the page still says that it was announced. 01:14:20 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@e4.dkm.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:14:58 Now that the x86-to-sparc cross-compile seems to work, I wonder why the cross-compile can't compile the callback code. It crashes the compiler with too many interrupts. 01:19:06 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:19:40 -!- aidalgol [~user@118.148.162.231] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:20:11 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DA98.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:22:20 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:22:29 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:24:50 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25:54 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:10 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:09 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:58 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:29:58 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:30:31 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:34:59 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:38:50 Does anyone do anything special in emacs when they want a function/macro to have a different indentation style (e.g., suppose you made your own defining function or your own LET)? 01:39:27 Makoryu [~bloodgog@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:19 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:40:24 Quadrescence: using &body gives slime a hint about your indentation desires. 01:40:50 Xach: Ah, does slime take control of indentation? 01:42:15 -!- jeti [~user@p54B47309.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:42:25 amorning #lisp 01:43:08 Quadrescence: it can 01:44:31 -!- CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has quit [Quit: CodingStream] 01:46:21 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-97-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:46:22 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:46:44 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has quit [Quit: superflit] 01:46:54 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 01:48:00 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-102-240.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:48:05 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-97-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:31 I have this function http://paste.lisp.org/display/116787 to make combinations of a list. If I run (time (choose 5 (new-deck))), it reports like 90% of the time is taken by the GC. Is that because I'm rebuilding lists too much or what? 01:50:15 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:45 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:51:04 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-97-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:51:36 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:51:48 Tordek: yes, your function is O(e^n) 01:51:58 Because of the recursive call and append 01:52:10 e? 01:52:36 e = (exp 1) = 2.718281828459045 01:52:41 heh 01:52:55 is there a more efficient version? 01:53:01 Actually, inside O(...) it only matter that the base is > 1. 01:53:09 Yes. 01:53:26 Tordek: append traverses the whole list every time. It's good fun :) 01:53:55 yeah, I just found odd you chose e instead of 2 or whatever 01:54:43 e is funnier. Like , it's more fundamental. de^n/dn = e^n 01:55:07 oh, so I'm building the whole list in front of the append, then discarding it and recreating it with the second part attached? 01:56:05 how can I improve it, then? 01:57:14 replete [~pete@cpe-74-64-94-88.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:37 CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has joined #lisp 01:58:58 pjb: can you point me to the more efficient version? 02:00:55 Tordek: first, you could avoid duplicating the list using nconc instead of append. Then since the order doesn't matter, you could put first the smallest lists. 02:01:43 rmarianski [~rmariansk@user-387h3rc.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:44 This would reduce the space complexity. This function will always be O(e^n) in time by its nature. But it can be O(C(n,m)) in space. 02:01:52 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-24-23-169-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:03:26 iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:22 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-60-31-33.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:04:35 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-214-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:40 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-50-64.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 02:05:31 -!- devinus_ [~devinus@cpe-66-68-82-202.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:06:01 :/ I'm still at the same GC/nonGC times; only difference is ~30% reduction in CONSed bytes 02:14:57 -!- Makoryu [~bloodgog@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:16:07 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-214-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:16:32 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-60-29-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:04 lnostdal-laptop_ [~lnostdal@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:30 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:19:44 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:19:46 brandonz [~brandon@c-24-23-169-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:57 lnostdal_ [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:43 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-24-23-169-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:29:15 Tordek: have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/116787 02:32:32 Do you guys ever do (defvar/defconstant x 'x) ? 02:32:54 It may happen, but more often we just use keywords. 02:33:03 chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has joined #lisp 02:33:26 pjb: They are only of the form `x" 02:33:27 erm 02:33:35 `x:' and `:x' yes? 02:33:50 How can I concatenate two path names? 02:33:52 They have no form, they're symbols. 02:33:59 seangrove: with merge-pathnames. 02:34:08 pjb: hm, then how do you declare a keyword 02:34:08 ? 02:34:36 You can intern it in the KEYWORD package, or just use the reader syntax :keyword, which interns it automatically in the KEYWORD package. 02:34:46 :x or (intern "X" "KEYWORD") 02:34:53 pjb: (merge-pathnames *default-pathname-defaults* "db/") doesn't seemm to return what I'm expecting :P 02:35:04 hmm, awesome, thanks pjb 02:35:07 seangrove: what do you want to do? 02:35:11 That's what I meant by the form :x (and x:, but i guess not) 02:35:41 pjb: Lemme try one more thing.. 02:35:52 Tordek: you could also avoid the nconc, O(n), by using an accumulator pattern. Thus you'd have at least one terminal recursive call (but you cannot avoid the other). 02:36:04 (merge-pathnames #p"/Users/" "db/") -> #P"/Users/" 02:36:33 (merge-pathnames "db/" #p"/Users/") 02:36:41 The defaults is the second argument. 02:36:43 krzysz00 [~user@pool-71-252-233-89.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:54 clhs merge-pathnames 02:36:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_merge_.htm 02:37:01 Ah, yes 02:37:02 Thank you 02:37:10 I was looking at that page, still couldn't figure it out 02:37:27 seangrove: *d-p-d* is the default value of the second, optional, argument 02:37:33 seangrove: with some practice, it'll become natural. 02:37:48 /topic Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming 02:37:48 language . New: SBCL 1.0.44, Maxima on 02:37:49 ABCL, Bordeaux-Threads 0.8.0, CMUCL 20b, SBCL User Survey 02:37:49 http://random-state.net/sbcl-survey-2010.html [have you considered /mode #lisp +t] 02:37:49 Xach: Wow! 02:37:51 Nice 02:38:50 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-179-143.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:39:33 -!- krzysz00 changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.44, Maxima on ABCL, Bordeaux-Threads 0.8.0, CMUCL 20b, SBCL User Survey http://random-state.net/sbcl-survey-2010.html [have you considered /mode #lisp +t] 02:39:33 is there some way to see how much memory a variable takes up? 02:39:47 Tordek: this is not meaningful a question. 02:40:16 pjb: I thought so, but I don't know how to rephrase it 02:40:17 Tordek: for example, (setf *print-circle* t) and see the result of (choose 3 '(1 2 3 4 5)) 02:40:27 Tordek: you can use ROOM, before and after. 02:40:30 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.62.37] has joined #lisp 02:40:31 clhs room 02:40:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_room.htm 02:40:42 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 02:41:09 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-179-143.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:41 Tordek: the point is that in lisp we often share data structures or parts of data structures, so the "memory cost" of a variable or a data structure is hard to compute, because it would have to be divided by the uses or partial uses. 02:41:46 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:43:37 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 02:44:26 I realize this might be off topic but I'm curious. Are the rules different or are there special rules for staying in cache and avoiding page faults in GC'd languages (esp. lisp)? 02:45:18 redline6561: you're at the mercy of the implementation. You cannot do much about it. 02:46:06 redline6561: modern implementation often choose a generational copying garbage collector, so that the amortized cache behavior is not bad, but you don't really control it. 02:46:45 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-179-143.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:46:59 pjb: That's what I was afraid of. Will the standard profiling and debugging tools at least give you a good idea of when you're getting hosed? time lists Major and Minor faults... 02:47:20 Those are VM statistics. 02:47:28 pjb: That makes more sense. Thanks. 02:47:45 For the cache, all you can do is to try to improve the locality of your algorithms. 02:47:56 Process a lot small parts of an array instead of going all over it, etc. 02:48:38 Otherwise if you have problem with that, peek into the implementation. 02:48:50 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:49:02 With FFI you can manage low level memory as you do in C. 02:49:30 use arrays instead of lists. 02:50:43 Right. Pretty simple but all good points. Thanks guys. 02:51:20 hefner_ [~hefner@ppp-58-9-118-13.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 02:51:33 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-249-58.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:47 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-118-13.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:48 -!- hefner_ is now known as hefner 02:52:17 clsql-sqlite3 is being especially obnoxious today 02:53:22 Tordek: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116787 02:53:42 -!- mega1 [~quassel@2001:470:1f05:548:215:58ff:fe7d:773b] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:53:49 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-154-166.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:54:00 -!- krzysz00 [~user@pool-71-252-233-89.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:54:39 haha thanks pjb 02:55:36 I don't suppose there's anyway to get parenscript to run *in the browser* ? 02:55:57 You can implement Common Lisp in Javascript. 02:56:06 Or you can re-implement Parenscript in Javascript. 02:56:16 I thought that would be the way 02:56:19 I'm pondering it over 02:57:37 seangrove: What? Like tryparenscript.com? http://tryparenscript.com/ 02:58:08 redline6561: No, I was very excited to see that, but I think it's actually just sending the forms over to node.js, evaling it, sending back the results 02:58:56 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:00:21 seangrove: Right. 03:01:08 My goal (dream?) is to open up the firebug console and use parenscript 03:01:15 -!- rme [rme@clozure-AC1C217F.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:01:16 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-27.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:01:28 I don't know if that's really achievable at all, *probably* not because of the syntax 03:02:26 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.62.37] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:03:07 -!- lnostdal_ [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:04:05 seangrove: Pretty sure that dream is far off but hack the good hack, sir. 03:04:11 lnostdal_ [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:04:20 Good words to live by 03:04:40 Maybe have a look at objective-j, see if they've done anything to the syntax 03:08:51 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 03:08:53 Good morning everyone! 03:10:01 Morning beach! How's SICL going? 03:10:27 seangrove wants to use it to implement CL over Javascript... 03:11:02 redline6561: Pretty well. Unfortunately I had to do some other work this week, but I'll pick it up again this weekend. 03:11:32 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:11:48 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mnrqkdgubycjcpbv] has joined #lisp 03:11:49 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:15:05 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:17:18 mega1 [~quassel@adsl-63-195-37-158.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:21 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:18 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 03:23:30 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:24:50 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@user-387h3rc.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:26:44 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:27:41 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:30:46 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:30:56 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.62.37] has joined #lisp 03:32:29 while using SBCL I see some warnnings about not defined symbols. for example (setq my-nick "tcleval") return a warnning about my nick not been defined. is that ok? I dont see such warnings on CLisp 03:34:17 Yes, clisp is more lennient. 03:34:31 You should use (defparameter *my-nick* "tcleval") instead. 03:34:41 Or (let ((my-nick "tcleval")) ...) 03:34:48 txh pjb 03:35:41 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 03:44:52 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 03:46:57 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:49:15 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 03:49:46 iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:47 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:50 notsonerdysunny [~chatzilla@121.243.182.185] has joined #lisp 04:04:32 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 04:07:48 -!- bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:09:18 hohoho [~hohoho@p92b3b5.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:10:40 -!- gavv\w [~gavv@178.236.241.138] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:10:59 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@245-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:11:25 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:11:38 gavv\w [~gavv@178.236.241.138] has joined #lisp 04:13:31 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F31E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:14:55 aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:16:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:19:39 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:21:17 az [~az@p4FE4EE59.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:18 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.62.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:30:45 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 04:36:00 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:38:50 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:40:50 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoy@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:43:20 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:04 does anyone here use step-through debugging much for CL programs? I use it all the time in Java/C C but never with CL. 04:45:50 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:46:16 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 04:46:16 does SLIME provide an easy way to insert breakpoints without adding a break? Is SBCL's stepping functionality reasonable now? 04:46:41 What's wrong with break? 04:48:31 schmrkc: The fact that you have to recompile the program? 04:49:41 schmrkc: as beach says, and that you have to type it repeatedly and delete it when you're finished debugging 04:49:59 -!- CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has quit [Quit: brb] 04:50:21 -!- chemuduguntar [~user@smtp.touchcut.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:50:33 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 04:50:53 CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has joined #lisp 04:53:11 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:54:23 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has left #lisp 04:54:52 Well, slime could be improved to insert the break calls automatically and temporaily. 04:55:43 But the point is that with bottom up development, you don't really have to debug step by step. 04:56:05 pjb: I suspect the underlying implementation needs to be modified as well, so that it can allow stepping after a break and not only when the entire top-level form was stepped. 04:56:08 That, and trace and print, and eventually, just thinking. 04:56:19 beach: indeed. 04:58:15 pjb: And I really don't buy your argument. I hate to whine about this, because I keep thinking I am doing something wrong, and even if not, it is nobody's obligation to fix it for me, but I do find myself working with Lisp in a way similar to the way I worked with C before GDB existed. 04:58:57 Part of the problem is, of course, that I am not using commercial implementations, which, no doubt, have all these tools. 05:01:06 I find CL's facilities to be a massive improvement on gdb even with just trace/break 05:01:40 Ralith: Really? I guess I must be doing something wrong then. 05:02:13 beach: I'm not comfortable with gdb's more advanced features, though; it could be that CL's facilities are simply easier to use. 05:02:37 beach: that said, I don't think there's anything in the C world that can compete with the slime inspector. 05:03:08 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:03:52 Ralith: That part I agree with. 05:04:33 also, I find it much easier to write bug-free code in Lisp, though that's subjective 05:05:18 when an error does occur, the tendency for the error to include references to the objects in question, and the ability to inspect those objects and those that they reference in turn, generally means any issues that do pop up are quickly isolated, at least in the relatively small systems I usually work on. 05:05:51 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-148-35-131.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:06:22 -!- zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:06:29 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@124-171-192-88.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:06:40 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 05:06:59 Ralith: Like I said, I don't want to jump to conclusions the way some newbies do here, and I keep thinking there must be ways of doing things that I haven't thought about, so I'll quit arguing. 05:08:23 *Ralith* isn't arguing so much as relating his own experiences 05:08:24 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:09:15 I've known C++ a lot longer than I've known Lisp, and yet I'm much more qualified to track down an arbitrary Lisp error than an arbitrary C++ one; I think that says something. 05:13:23 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 05:19:59 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-qevjvjrvcwiszitn] has joined #lisp 05:19:59 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-qevjvjrvcwiszitn] has quit [Changing host] 05:19:59 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:22:51 beach: Isn't it enough to recompile the bit where the break is? 05:23:58 *schmrkc* does find gdb better at placing breakpoints, sure. 05:24:32 of course with gdb I seem to have to know what source code line I want to put the break at. 05:25:57 beach: lisp is slow and typically only used in AI 05:26:35 schmrkc: One gets into all kinds of trouble. Suppose for instance you have something like (if (mumble) (thing) (other)) and you want to put a breakpoint before (thing) is evaluated. You can't just say (if (mumble) (break) (thing) (other)) because now you have a syntax error, so now you have to insert a progn, etc, etc. 05:26:35 05:27:46 schmrkc: Furthermore, it is common for me to want to set further breakpoints based on the result of inspecting variables at the first one. But then I have to edit and recompile and run again. 05:28:40 schmrkc: People keep telling me that I shouldn't be wanting to do this, but I am not convinced. 05:29:51 schmrkc: I would also like to be able to set watchpoints, i.e., break whenever a variable is modified. 05:30:23 schmrkc: and I would like to set a watchpoint, while I am currently at a breakpoint somewhere else. 05:30:50 schmrkc: But people keep telling me that none of these things are necessary with Lisp. 05:31:11 schmrkc: I am willing to listen to arguments like that, but so far, nobody has been able to convince me. 05:34:18 schmrkc: Worse, when my students ask the same questions, I know I couldn't keep a straight face and tell then that they should not be wanting that. I would feel like the time when I used Scheme and had to tell them that "yes, there is no OO, but you can easily write that yourself". 05:35:14 syntard__ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:18 *beach* quits now, for reasons already told. 05:35:55 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:36:55 _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:37:22 devinus_ [~devinus@66.68.82.202] has joined #lisp 05:38:53 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-249-58.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:39:06 beach: well, watchpoints sound fairly easy to implement without even touching the impl 05:39:17 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:39:24 if you're comfortable with impl code, probably easier still there 05:39:24 Ralith: Excellent! 05:39:26 -!- syntard__ is now known as syntard 05:39:43 -!- lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 05:44:23 -!- CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:44:55 good morning all 05:45:03 hello kushal 05:45:08 beach, hi there 05:46:05 beach: Sounds very reasonable to want to add breakpoints when breaked, and also the watchpoints. 05:46:31 beach: I do these things "all the time" in projects in some other languages. I find it valuable tools. 05:47:20 beach: Seems like something one should be able to implement provided one was a good friend with the sbcl internals. Which I'm not. Maybe some other year :) 05:48:06 Hmm. I mainly find break-points using in javascript, these days. 05:48:28 I can't remember the last time I used them in CL. 05:48:36 *schmrkc* has written just about 10 lines of js. 05:48:53 I use them all the time when doing assembly work though. 05:48:57 I mostly generate it as a target. 05:50:16 I've kind of come to the conclusion that using break-points is a symptom of over-complex flow-control. 05:50:36 So it makes sense that students would want to use it. 05:51:01 I just wish they'd add goto to javascript ... 05:51:03 I haven't actually used it much in CL. But then I haven't written that much CL, and maybe I would if the tool was there. 05:53:26 I have used some forths that have a break word. It's pretty useless. 05:53:35 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-135-47.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:44 makes a bit more sense in CL. 05:54:01 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:19 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:55:35 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 05:56:32 Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:08 -!- lnostdal-laptop_ [~lnostdal@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:58:47 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:53 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-192-88.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:06:22 Ocaso [~chatzilla@203.156.243.14] has joined #lisp 06:11:50 -!- devinus_ [~devinus@66.68.82.202] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:11:51 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:11:52 -!- moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@ETSY.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:16:00 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 06:17:30 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:19:57 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:20:29 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-199-139.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:21:31 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-199-139.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:28 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:28:54 seangrove [~user@c-67-169-182-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:43 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:38 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:30:55 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:31:23 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-vdszretnekytmicw] has joined #lisp 06:31:45 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:38:02 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 06:39:15 -!- luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 06:39:40 luis` [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has joined #lisp 06:45:03 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:45:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:45:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:46:03 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-221-165-176.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:46:23 dberg [~user@c-98-234-179-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:05 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:56:50 -!- dberg [~user@c-98-234-179-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:06 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:02:19 vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 07:02:29 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-vdszretnekytmicw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:03:29 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 07:05:02 dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:12 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 07:05:48 I have a minor question regarding cross-implementation defining of variables. 07:06:04 Ask away! 07:06:27 07:06:28 07:06:28 (defvar *argv* 07:06:28 #+SBCL 07:06:31 sb-ext:*posix-argv* 07:06:31 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:06:34 srcerer_ [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 07:06:34 #+CLISP 07:06:36 EXT:*ARGS*"SBCL's argv. Aliased to allow for multi-compiler use") 07:06:40 D'oh! Sorty about the multiline spam 07:06:49 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 07:07:02 Anyway, that falls over on CLISP with a segfault, complaining about the # form. 07:07:17 stokachu` [~user@nat/redhat/x-jxvlqgdrfgxlyzcr] has joined #lisp 07:07:17 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:07:29 _pw_` [~user@125.34.41.58] has joined #lisp 07:07:44 are you sure it complains about this particular #? 07:09:03 -!- stokachu [~user@nat/redhat/x-burocbtaixrpfyeq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:09:05 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:10:23 No. But I've not written multi-Common Lisp statements before, so I presumed that it was. 07:10:23 daniel__ [~daniel@p50829E09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:15 what you showed is perfectly legal 07:11:44 -!- _pw_` [~user@125.34.41.58] has quit [Client Quit] 07:11:45 how old is your clisp? 07:11:47 -!- _pw_ [~user@125.34.41.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:11:59 I'm not sure! 07:12:10 Is there a way to get version info from it? 07:12:25 _pw_ [~user@125.34.41.58] has joined #lisp 07:12:40 it tells you right way, somewhere around the menorah 07:13:05 I would guess clisp --version should work too 07:13:25 Mmm. 2.40. Built locally...in 2006 07:13:37 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:13:37 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:13:37 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:13:44 *vlion* considers that a clisp rebuild is a Good Idea. 07:13:50 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082AC7E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:13:54 well, try updating it and then try again 07:13:54 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-85.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:14:11 yeah... didn't realize my version was so antique 07:14:26 sorry for troubling your time. :-/ 07:25:54 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-wmltdlzckmmedkcc] has joined #lisp 07:38:42 acs` [~user@86.35.172.161] has joined #lisp 07:40:10 -!- acs` [~user@86.35.172.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:40:15 -!- acs [~user@86.35.172.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:40:59 acs [~user@86.35.172.161] has joined #lisp 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[~user@86.35.172.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:43:29 http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Round%28%29_we_go_again.aspx What an..erm.. creative solution! 08:44:13 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:02 Wooo 08:45:59 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:47:53 -!- notsonerdysunny [~chatzilla@121.243.182.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:48:16 Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has joined #lisp 08:49:27 *stassats* tried to make thread-ring benchmark from shootout to use sb-concurrency:mailboxes instead of waitqueues and mutexes 08:49:48 although the code became much prettier, it also is slightly slower 08:51:24 :( 08:51:24 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.239.54] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:51:45 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:54:54 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:48 -!- setheus 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[~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 09:39:48 stassats: i suspect the interrupt-safety costs were the biggest cause 09:40:07 but it would be nice to know for sure. did you run sb-sprof on it? 09:40:16 though, as the number of threads grows, mailboxes seem to be faster 09:40:39 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:41:34 our semaphores aren't also that hot, really -- they should be implemented directly on top of futexes on linux, not on top of mutexes and condition variables 09:43:22 i did run sb-sprof, 40% of time seems to spent in (FLET #:CLEANUP-FUN-[SEND-MESSAGE]118) 09:44:56 hm 09:45:35 yep, i think that's the without-interrupts cleanup 09:47:46 now it seems to be deadlocked somewhere, great 09:48:07 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:48:27 linux or os x? 09:49:13 linux 09:49:47 i'd blame myself in the first, because i have close to zero experience with multi-threading 09:51:55 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.109.102.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:52:54 on os x i'm i would disagree, but on linux user-errors are the more common explanation :) 09:53:00 any mutexes involved? 09:53:41 no, just make-mailbox, send-message and receive-message 09:54:17 no immediate suggestions, then 09:56:14 it seems to hang close to the end 09:56:44 and it works with 100 threads, but fails on 200 09:57:57 if your repl is responsive, see if all mailboxes are empty 09:57:59 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:39 looks like send-message doesn't return 09:59:55 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu201.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:59:59 apropos: the sb-sprof results are actually misleading: since the interrupts are disabled _all_ the time that send-message clocks gets reported in the without-interrupts cleanup 10:00:46 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9EAB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:14 i think easiest way to debug is to remove without-interrupts from send-message, try to reproduce the hang, and then backtrace the hanging thread using interrupt-thread to see where it is 10:01:53 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:01:54 republican_devil [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:35 1 mailbox has 1 message pending 10:03:31 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:03:38 send-message should never end up blocking, so if that happens it's a bug 10:03:50 i can paste my code 10:04:00 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 10:04:23 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9ED59.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:04:25 sure. not sure if i have time to dive in, but even a potential test-case is good to have :) 10:05:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:05:31 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.109.102.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 10:06:02 -!- republican_devil [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:07:26 nikodemus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116796 10:12:56 -!- lispmeister [u272@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-legraimrcixoykpd] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by zombie] 10:13:14 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p92b3b5.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:13:39 hohoho [~hohoho@p92b3b5.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:14:25 stassats: the only thing that jumps out is terminate-thread. for good style at least you should instead eg. have the thread-functions return once they've passed the buck to the next mailbox and thread, or handle a message like :die specially, and then call join-thread in START for each (but that's not strictly necessary) 10:15:27 but presumably it hangs before you start terminating the threads? 10:16:03 yes 10:17:04 if you're stuck with one mailbox having one message, but the receiver not seeing it, it sounds like a lost wakeup 10:17:08 what sbcl version? 10:17:15 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:17:17 1.0.44.19 10:18:37 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:19:26 replace the receive-message with (loop until (receive-message-no-hang )) 10:19:38 no! 10:19:46 that's working around a potential bug! 10:19:51 i want my bug! 10:20:14 the mailbox that has one message, can you check (sb-thread::semaphore-waitcount (sb-concurrency::mailbox-semaphore )) there? 10:20:39 If it works it pinpoints to a lost wakeup bug 10:21:21 -!- Ocaso [~chatzilla@203.156.243.14] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 10:22:20 nikodemus: 0 10:22:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:23:28 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.179] has joined #lisp 10:24:15 can you tell if there's a thread trying to receive-message from there? 10:24:30 or is it really stuck in send-message? 10:25:17 how do i tell? i can get the thread from which it was sent, and the thread which is supposed to receive 10:25:22 but what do i do with them? 10:25:53 (loop do (sleep 0.0001) thereis (sb-concurrency:receive-message-no-hang mailbox)) hangs as well 10:26:01 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:26:04 mmm.. the without-interrupts is really making life hard here 10:26:26 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu201.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:26:35 Reminds me of why I like processes. :) 10:26:36 Load average: 135.06 10:26:41 since you can't get backtraces from those threads 10:27:12 should i just remove them? 10:27:19 yeah 10:27:33 as long as there are no asynch unwinds you don't need them 10:28:09 then you can do (interrupt-thread (lambda () (sb-debug:backtrace 100))) 10:28:32 for the threads that are supposed to be reading and writing on that mailbox 10:28:41 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:49 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:29:25 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:30:03 oh! i think i may have your bug 10:30:05 (lambda () (thread-body i current next main-box)) 10:30:19 make that (let ((i i)) (lambda ...)) 10:31:59 ok, but that I should matter in where it hangs 10:32:19 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-199-139.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:32:31 shoudln't 10:32:37 yep, still hangs 10:33:00 freddie111 [~user@150.140.230.22] has joined #lisp 10:33:24 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33:38 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-199-139.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:58 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 10:34:57 same for current and next? if make-thread returns, but a closed over variable hasn't been read in the new thread yet by the time the loop flips it, you can have multiple threads working on the same id, current, or next 10:35:16 that's better 10:35:20 let me try 10:35:43 i wonder if we should make variable capture into new threads harder 10:36:04 If you just made it impossible ... :) 10:36:42 seems to work now, doh 10:37:05 i'm glad it works, and sad at the same time that i didn't catch some nasty bug 10:38:53 if sb-thread:make-thread worked like FUNCALL, it'd be easier 10:40:05 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.179] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:40:32 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:41:05 i think i'll need to blog about this later this week :) 10:41:22 before or after some l-t-v blogging? 10:41:41 after i have set up sb-studio blog, i think 10:41:54 nikodemus: thanks for the assistance 10:41:55 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-112-174.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:42:14 haven't decided yet if should just use the same homebrew setup i use for random-state.net, or something more 2010 10:42:41 at least i think i want better blog entry urls there 10:43:25 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-85.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:43:50 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:44:02 so it'll be sunday or next week, actually 10:44:22 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-85.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:44:35 so, the original code uses wait queues, would it be better using something else? 10:47:02 since your mailboxes aren't very contested, there are no interrupts to worry about, and there is a fixed msg count per mailbox, i'd use a struct with a counter, vector, and a semaphore 10:47:20 ok, i'll try that 10:47:21 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-112-174.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:03 Is there a good reason why make-thread takes no arguments that could be passed to the function? Then the lambda and unwanted capture wouldn't happen ... 10:48:24 Maybe there should be a macro for that - once-only of the arguments, and pass to the function 10:48:36 but mailboxes are imo the right model and tool. sb-concurrency mailboxes are optimized for heavy contestation and interrupt safety -- so you end up paying for stuff you don't need 10:48:37 that's what i was saying regarding FUNCALL 10:48:48 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:49:02 probably it should 10:49:14 yes .. I justed wanted to (loop collect ('my 'thoughts)) ;-) 10:49:54 nikodemus: mailboxes seems to be much nicer in general 10:50:14 the question is should it just have &key :arguments, or should it be changed backwards-incompatibly to be eg. (create-thread *) 10:50:22 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:50:44 (or both?) 10:51:31 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-60-29-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:52:08 the latter is nice for simple use-cases, but not extensible if we want to later add something like :priority or :cpu or whatever other arguments to the call 10:53:31 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-112-174.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:55:02 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:55:40 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 10:56:01 How about something like (create-thread name (function args*) :cpu ...) 10:56:25 Decouple thread creation from execution 10:56:35 -!- jerivard [~jerivard@c-69-181-250-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:56:50 (call-in-thread (make-thread :name  :cpu) #'foo args...) 10:57:21 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:37 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-60-29-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:30 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 11:01:17 tcr: needs more synchronization and an interrupt 11:01:39 well, the interrupt can be done away with 11:03:23 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-112-174.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:50 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 11:03:50 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 11:03:50 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 11:04:52 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:40 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.58] has joined #lisp 11:12:38 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:14:06 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.58] has quit [Client Quit] 11:15:01 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.109.102.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:15:55 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.132.195] has joined #lisp 11:16:55 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.58] has joined #lisp 11:17:08 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:22 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.89] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 nikodemus: semaphores directly are faster than mailboxes indeed, though still not as fast as waitqueues 11:19:49 stassats: not surprising since semaphores are built on waitqueues and implement additional logic 11:20:01 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:20:02 yeah, i just discovered that 11:20:49 -!- kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21:03 -!- huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21:23 and waitqueues are built upon what? 11:22:35 tfb [~tfb@94.197.49.61.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:23:28 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 11:23:45 futexes on linux 11:24:21 Xach: hello 11:24:25 hello leo2007 11:24:34 I was going to ask you something days ago and now I have forgotten, sorry. 11:24:43 kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:25:08 maybe if use futexes directly... 11:25:10 -!- chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:25:15 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.58] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:25:53 Some of my C libs are installed in a non standard location. So, for example, to use iolib I need something like this: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/293016. 11:26:03 or you could implement semaphores directly on top of futexes! 11:26:44 I can easily move the second chunk to the init file of CCL, any idea how to move the first chunk? 11:26:53 stassats: also, since you know there is only one reader and writer per mailbox in your case, you might be able to be mostly non-blocking 11:27:29 how? 11:31:15 skalawag` [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:14 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:41 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C968.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:23 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.31.180] has joined #lisp 11:35:14 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.170.48.75] has joined #lisp 11:35:14 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.170.48.75] has quit [Changing host] 11:35:14 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 11:35:40 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p92b3b5.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:38:00 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.132.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:39:30 stassats: approximately: reader increments next-read-index, writer increments next-write-index, reader spins thread-yeild and a backoff to increasing sleeps if next-read-index is equal to next-write-index 11:40:54 (you could also use explicit wakeups, but i suspect backoff by the writer is faster here, since it doesn't require so much synchronization between the threads) 11:41:12 backoff by the reader, i mean 11:41:47 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-118-13.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:42:24 you don't even need atomic-incf: if the slot is only written-to by one thread, you can use regular incf. the worst that can happen is that the reader needs to spin a while before it sees the new value 11:45:15 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.1] has joined #lisp 11:46:32 tfb: ping 11:47:48 Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:48:01 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-3.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:48:35 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:49:07 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:42 MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has joined #lisp 11:55:00 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:55:33 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:56:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:58:49 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:00:11 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:01:37 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.109.102.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 12:01:52 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mnrqkdgubycjcpbv] has left #lisp 12:01:53 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.1] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 12:03:33 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.35] has joined #lisp 12:04:04 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.89] has joined #lisp 12:06:38 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.109.102.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:07:15 -!- luis` is now known as luis 12:09:15 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:10:17 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:16 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:35 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:12:47 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 12:21:04 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:21:54 -!- skalawag` is now known as skalawag 12:25:20 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:26:50 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 12:27:16 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-95-178.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:33 rukowen [~thehien@222.253.105.14] has joined #lisp 12:28:36 -!- freddie111 [~user@150.140.230.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:24 sellout [~greg@64.134.240.185] has joined #lisp 12:39:53 supe [~tf@unaffiliated/supe] has joined #lisp 12:39:55 hi 12:40:09 What is Lisp, and why should I learn it? 12:40:19 *supe* is an IT Student 12:40:40 bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:28 supe: lisp is a high level language useful for learning about abstraction, among other things 12:41:34 <`3b``> supe: it is a (family of) programming language, and you should learn it because learning is good for you 12:41:50 -!- `3b`` is now known as `3b 12:42:08 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.109.102.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 12:42:21 supe: read this short little bit of text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(computer_programmer)#Blub 12:42:23 `3b: In the same way brocolli is? 12:42:30 OliverUv: Thanks, I'll read that now 12:43:25 lisp is generally considered to be one of the most powerful languages, as it affords you with most commonly known modes of abstraction 12:43:58 <`3b> supe: broccoli seems to be only 1 language, while lisp is a general term for a few languages (though we tend to use it to mean specifically 'common lisp' in this channel) 12:44:33 3b: i think he means as in "brocolli is good for you" 12:44:38 as in a joke 12:44:45 <`3b> ah, that too :) 12:45:03 xD 12:45:08 *supe* just looked up the lang 12:45:09 o.O 12:45:20 haha, I had no idea there was such a language though 12:48:31 language names are like domain names: all the actual words are taken 12:57:13 Is clojure a word? 12:57:26 it's a damaged word 12:57:39 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clojure 12:57:41 ^Nup 12:58:16 from closure 12:58:24 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:03:14 supe: It is a potential word in English, but not an actual one so far. 13:05:33 hatchetyhatch [~user@24-52-45-203.us.warpdriveonline.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:03 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:06 -!- hatchetyhatch [~user@24-52-45-203.us.warpdriveonline.com] has left #lisp 13:07:09 -!- rukowen [~thehien@222.253.105.14] has left #lisp 13:07:37 davertron [~ddcddavis@vt-bt-254.dealer.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:27 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:12:38 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@77.17.109.102.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:13:09 lol, kk 13:13:27 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:13:36 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:42 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 13:14:47 LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-218.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:15:42 sj [~simon@d51A456BF.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 13:16:00 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.132.195] has joined #lisp 13:16:15 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-27.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:21 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.31.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:20:55 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-91.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:21:12 chp [~chp@114.113.67.40] has joined #lisp 13:24:37 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:23 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:30:36 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.73] has joined #lisp 13:30:47 -!- sj [~simon@d51A456BF.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 13:31:48 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 13:32:58 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:33:15 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-95-178.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:34:55 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:34:56 13:35:52 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:35 word 13:39:23 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:39:32 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 13:40:35 truff 13:41:00 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 13:44:11 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:44:29 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:44:58 carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.95] has joined #lisp 13:46:00 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificetn 13:46:03 -!- madnificetn is now known as madnificent 13:46:27 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 13:53:40 enupten [~neptune@117.254.155.155] has joined #lisp 13:55:12 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:37 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:57:23 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu201.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:59:04 Yo 13:59:33 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:59:54 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:00:09 hello gigamonkey 14:00:14 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:01:32 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:35 kiuma [~kiuma@proxykno.emea.fedex.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:03:49 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.240.185] has quit [Quit: sellout] 14:05:12 c|mell [~cmell@196.12.133.227] has joined #lisp 14:05:32 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 14:08:20 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-97-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:08:43 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@85.100.79.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:08:50 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-196.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:30 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:11:14 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:29 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:08 *Xach* opens https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/676987 14:12:48 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:13:28 sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:40 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 14:18:47 *supe* opens Xach bug wider 14:18:58 Xach: asdfasdfa; echo $? in shell returns 127; is that a shell convention? 14:19:33 cmucl signals an error if no program is found. Is that ok for you Xach? 14:20:08 rtoym: that is awesome. 14:20:12 *Xach* switches to cmucl! 14:20:44 OSX doesn't have /bin/false, so I found that out right away. :-) 14:20:46 tcr: I don't know. If I were doing it, I think I would check to see if control proceeded after the exec call. 14:21:14 nyef mentioned a strategy a year or two ago, the last time i brought this up (but didn't file a bug) 14:21:23 *Xach* can't remember the details of nyef's idea 14:21:33 Well, someone like foom or fe[nl]ix probably know the specifics behind 127; but it's what I'd expect in that case 14:22:28 !topic 14:22:32 `topic 14:23:02 supe: What are you trying to do? 14:23:35 syntard__ [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 14:23:57 (topic) 14:24:20 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.155.155] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:06 tcr: is't just a convention 14:25:08 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:25:09 tcr: http://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/exitcodes.html 14:25:16 -!- supe [~tf@unaffiliated/supe] has left #lisp 14:25:17 -!- syntard__ is now known as syntard 14:28:59 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-218.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:29:03 rukowen [~thehien@222.253.105.14] has joined #lisp 14:31:08 Fereal [Fereal@124.106.134.234] has joined #lisp 14:31:13 -!- Fereal [Fereal@124.106.134.234] has left #lisp 14:32:14 idurand [~idurand@faucon.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 14:33:26 -!- benny [~benny@i577A82BB.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:33:55 -!- mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:32 cerebral_monkey [berkley@c-66-177-48-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:17 -!- c|mell [~cmell@196.12.133.227] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:39:39 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 14:40:01 -!- bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:40:42 bsod1 [~osa1@95.8.102.235] has joined #lisp 14:40:46 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:38 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-123-85.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:47:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:48:59 benny` [~benny@i577A355C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:49:11 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:02 nikodemus: how about exposing futexes on linux? (: 14:50:35 you mean a more high-level interface? 14:50:55 -!- reav_ [~reav_@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:51:00 sure, macro it up a bit, and make it accessible as a contrib :) 14:52:37 no principal objections 14:52:51 requires figuring out how to do platform-specific contribs, though 14:53:06 or else just make it sb-futex on github 14:53:43 -!- idurand [~idurand@faucon.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:46 (i prefer the first, since there are other things that would make good platform-specific contribs too) 14:54:50 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:22 bhyde [~Adium@173.48.206.119] has joined #lisp 14:55:23 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:32 reav_ [~reav_@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:57:45 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:58:01 -!- benny` is now known as benny 15:03:37 HG` [~HG@xdslep031.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:42 CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has joined #lisp 15:04:14 -!- CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has left #lisp 15:04:56 CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has joined #lisp 15:06:26 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:07 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 15:13:28 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:38 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:15 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:19:52 MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has joined #lisp 15:20:47 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:17 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21:53 MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has joined #lisp 15:22:11 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:23:00 konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 15:23:17 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:54 MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has joined #lisp 15:24:18 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:27 -!- CodingStream [~chris@gatekeeper.newhaven.edu] has quit [Quit: CodingStream] 15:24:34 MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has joined #lisp 15:25:19 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:25:35 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:25:36 MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has joined #lisp 15:26:49 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:14 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:33 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:27:54 MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has joined #lisp 15:29:20 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:29:26 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:29:54 MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has joined #lisp 15:30:53 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:19 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:26 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:36:34 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:38:05 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.35] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:38:26 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:39:55 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:01 -!- reav_ [~reav_@212.88.117.162] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 15:40:42 are there any libraries for role based access and navigation ? 15:41:00 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 15:43:12 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:57 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:44:55 defservice has some interesting routing methods, but that's all for the libs I know of. CL-HTTP might have it's own stuff for that, I am unsure about details of weblocks (there's navigation code, that's certain, no idea about security) 15:45:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:45:24 defservice allowed for creating "modular" routes that could be used to check permissions, I think 15:45:26 if you were to create storage for a 2D-table, with both metadata for both the table itself and columns, and of course the data itself, what would you use? 15:47:27 <`3b> generic functions? 15:48:25 `3b: huh? to operate on tables? sure, but i'm a looking for a way to efficiently store the tables. 15:48:39 <`3b> (in other words, specify the operations you want, then just plug in the most obvious implementation you can think of until such time as you run into limitations in it, at which point you can change the implementation since you only ever accessed it through the high level API) 15:48:53 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:49:12 <`3b> well, 2d array is the obvious way to store it, unless it is very sparse 15:49:28 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:49:51 -!- tfb [~tfb@94.197.49.61.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:50:38 catowar [wakko@shellbox.skidsr.us] has joined #lisp 15:50:45 <`3b> or do you mean 'storage' as in serializing to disk or something? 15:50:48 hello 15:50:59 hypno: it really depends on the operations you'll perform. 15:51:08 (and on what the data looks like) 15:51:13 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:18 -!- catowar [wakko@shellbox.skidsr.us] has quit [Client Quit] 15:51:24 `3b: well, that too, but that is less of a problem i think. for now it is ok to just load a lisp file and compile. 15:51:33 the main problem is that this can be quite a lot of data. 15:51:49 ie, 4 miljon clos objects is perhaps not such a great idea. 15:51:59 i also want to operate on the data in a column fashion. 15:52:18 so i figured i will just use vectors for each column and not a matrix. 15:52:22 then a column store, with one specialised vector by column, seems obvious. 15:53:00 nd storing only those columns that are known to exist 15:53:04 *and 15:55:04 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-196.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:55:24 pkhuong_: yeah. how would you represent the col-store? hash-table? object? a list? 15:55:37 -!- KingNato [~patno@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Quit: KingNato] 15:56:25 Table->{hash-table,meta1,meta2,...} makes sense i guess. 15:56:52 I used runtime compilation, so decoupling the schema from the object made sense. 15:58:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-95.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:59:15 -!- bhyde [~Adium@173.48.206.119] has left #lisp 16:00:15 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-wmltdlzckmmedkcc] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:00:44 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-196.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:01:03 hmmm... you could also try using a combination of R-tree and 2D arrays to store the data 16:02:16 p_l|home: from what i've been able to come up with from the spec, accessing complete colums/rows from a 2d-array is kind of primitive in CL tho. 16:03:40 dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:46 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.132.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:04:12 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 16:04:29 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:04:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-95.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:04:39 hypno: well, the R-tree idea is for a degenerate case of which has highly sparse dataset 16:07:02 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:07:20 -!- rwallace [~rwallace@89.100.128.108] has left #lisp 16:07:21 p_l|home: hmm. ok. i am not familiar with R-trees. all i am looking for trying to be able to be as flexible with the metadata as possible, yet still use a somewhat efficient method for the data so i can have, say, 1 miljon objects or so... as said, both the table has and the columns has info. anyway, i'll just hack away and see what i end up with. 16:08:21 a million of just about anything whose contents you can address by name (i.e. no array) isn't that much. 16:08:43 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:09:40 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:13:24 Is there a hook for the slime repl? 16:14:28 sorry? 16:14:49 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:15:38 erm, in emacs, I want to disable show-trailing-whitespace for the slime repl. For term-mode, I have (add-hook 'term-mode-hook 'disable-trailing-whitespace), and I want to do something similar if available 16:15:55 there's a slime-repl-mode 16:16:01 ah, that's what I was looking for 16:16:07 I'll try that 16:16:36 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:16:56 -!- chp [~chp@114.113.67.40] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:17:36 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-222-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:41 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-196.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:17:49 tcr, yes, thanks. 16:18:53 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-60-29-242.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:19:02 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 16:25:01 Bronsa [~bronsa@host236-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:27:47 aceluck [~aceluck@175.137.166.34] has joined #lisp 16:28:12 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host236-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:28:24 SpitfireWP__ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 16:29:04 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:21 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.89] has joined #lisp 16:29:28 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has joined #lisp 16:29:29 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:34 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-196.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:29:43 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:01 -!- SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:31:04 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 16:31:21 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:32:23 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.145.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:32:41 What is the counterpart to (function s) which gets the value of s? 16:33:03 -!- SpitfireWP__ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:33:37 Quadrescence: are you looking for symbol-value 16:33:38 ? 16:34:12 Bronsa [~bronsa@host236-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:34:12 c|mell [~cmell@gprs1.mtnonline.rw] has joined #lisp 16:34:15 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.144.135] has joined #lisp 16:34:23 If x is bound to 5 and (symbol-value 'x) returns 5, then yes 16:34:35 Quadrescence: simply X 16:35:01 Quadrescence: symbol-value does not work on lexically bound values. 16:35:02 Hm, then how could I use it at macro time? 16:35:11 Quadrescence: you don't. 16:35:15 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 16:35:16 I see. 16:36:17 (let ((x )) (your-macro)) ; there is no way for the macro to access the value of X during macro-expansion, since there is no binding at that time for it 16:36:23 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 16:36:26 I have a macro which has a parameter sym (which should be a symbol), and I want to get the symbol's value at macro-expansion-time 16:36:37 Quadrescence: doesn't really make sense. 16:36:41 Quadrescence: change what you want. 16:36:59 pkhuong_: Hm? Why not? 16:37:25 -!- mega1 [~quassel@adsl-63-195-37-158.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:37:39 Quadrescence: Then just use X. 16:37:40 Quadrescence: symbol-value works, but i strongly suspect it doesn't do what you're looking for 16:38:22 beach: 16:38:26 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:38:30 CL-USER> (macroexpand-1 '(bar *foo*)) 16:38:30 *FOO* 16:38:38 err 16:38:41 let me paste 16:39:00 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:01 That might help clear things up. 16:39:03 (your-macro symbol-whose-value-you-pull) is almost exactly like (your-macro :value-that-would-be-in the-symbol), but harder to read and use 16:39:43 beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116806 16:39:46 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-77-254.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:40:42 Quadrescence: that looks good to me. 16:40:47 Quadrescence: Looks reasonable. 16:40:49 Me too 16:40:59 I am saying at macro-expansion time, I want 5 to be returned. 16:41:11 is symbol-value the proper way to do this? 16:41:12 Quadrescence: What does your real macro look like? 16:41:38 What is it for? 16:41:41 Quadrescence: is this for optimization? 16:41:44 thougn, there are LOAD vs EXECUTE -time issues. 16:41:56 nikodemus: No, it is for an alternative defconstant 16:42:14 well, symbol-value is what you want then 16:43:18 (defmacro defconstant-once (name value) `(defconstant ,name (if (boundp ',name) (symbol-value ',name) ,value))) 16:43:31 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@95.8.102.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:32 bsod1_ [~osa1@88.240.134.57] has joined #lisp 16:43:34 -!- bsod1_ is now known as bsod1 16:44:57 devinus_ [~devinus@65.107.181.222.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:41 Draggor1 [~Draggor@adsl-99-142-85-216.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:43 but if you really need the symbol-value at macroexpansion time, reading up on eval-when may help you understand the timing issues involved 16:46:34 reading up on eval-when rarely helps understanding of anything, but perhaps it's just me 16:46:45 it confuses things really well, though 16:47:02 well defconstant has some rather permanent effects on the symbol, maybe it's preferable to do an inline function 16:48:15 c|mell: are you referring to defconstant-once? it is exactly correct, even if i elided the docstring. it's even portable and guaranteed to work for all kinds of wierd objects 16:48:33 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-142-57-69.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:48:45 nikodemus, your defconstant-once is a good defconstant-once as i understand it 16:49:02 but defconstant is unfortunate 16:49:09 how so? 16:49:36 for the record, this is what I was doing http://paste.lisp.org/display/116808 16:50:04 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:50:14 jajcloz [~jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:23 it gives the compiler sufficient guarantees to do a good job safely and sanely. if it gave license but no guarantees, it would be much harder to use without running into strangeness, or it would make constants less efficient 16:50:29 "The consequences are undefined when constant symbols are rebound as 16:50:29 either lexical or dynamic variables" 16:51:20 if you instead do a defmacro or inline defun, then you have less permanently affected the symbol 16:52:21 i think that's a good thing. it means that after (defconstant pkg:exported-name ...) you can in (defmacro pkg:foo ...) expansion safely rely on pkg:exported-name being bound to the constant, without worrying about a lexical shadowing it 16:52:42 with functions you don't get that guarantee -- not unless you're on sbcl and lock your package, at least :) 16:53:22 Quadrescence: Added a variant to paste from Edi's cl-who 16:54:21 nikodemus, do you believe in +earmuffs+? 16:54:45 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 16:54:54 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:54:54 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:54:55 c|mell: if you use +marks+, then what's the issue with permanently marking the symbol as constant? 16:55:06 (granted, it would be a better to require the compiler to signal an error for binding a constant instead of calling it undefined behaviour) 16:55:16 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:55:41 c|mell: occasionally. if it's a short name, yes. if it's a long name with a suffix like -limit, less so 16:55:46 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:56:38 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host236-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 16:56:40 due to the restrictions on constant semantics and sbcl enforcing them +foo+ is imo more of a question of user convenience and situational easthetics then something everyone everywhere must always do 16:56:50 -!- bsod1 is now known as bsod1_ 16:56:54 Bronsa [~bronsa@host236-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:57:12 ditto for **earmuffs** for sbcl's lexical globals 16:57:16 i suppose my point is that by using an inline defun returning a load-time-value or a #.form or a defmacro, you get all the performance benefits without tangling with undefined behaviour 16:58:44 there is also a school of thought which holds that declaring a variable special globally is wrong (no defvar) and it should be declared special when it is bound 17:00:17 i personally hold with the earmuff conventions, and use defconstant wrappers that avoid calling defconstant if the current value is sufficiently similar 17:01:41 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:20 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:46 mega1 [~quassel@2001:470:1f05:548:215:58ff:fe7d:773b] has joined #lisp 17:03:51 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 17:03:54 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:23 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:10:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:27 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757625.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:57 xan_ [~xan@64.134.240.53] has joined #lisp 17:15:08 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:16:40 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:37 urandom__ [~user@p548A3ADE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:16 -!- c|mell [~cmell@gprs1.mtnonline.rw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:14 -!- rukowen [~thehien@222.253.105.14] has left #lisp 17:27:46 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 17:31:52 netytan [~netytan@host81-141-55-142.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:05 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 17:35:56 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-93-189-209.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:32 KingNato [~patno@83.251.103.156] has joined #lisp 17:36:43 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:36:49 -!- KingNato [~patno@83.251.103.156] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:52 Axius_ [~fd@92.85.209.244] has joined #lisp 17:38:21 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host236-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:40:10 Bronsa [~bronsa@host236-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:45:34 The slime #+nil fontification doesn't work for me in Emacs run in a terminal; for you too? 17:46:46 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:46 tcr: works here as soon as I type \#n 17:49:58 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host236-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:51:34 Bronsa [~bronsa@host236-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:51:45 jdz [~jdz@host14-105-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:53:22 fe[nl]ix: Are you using the default color-scheme? 17:53:47 no 17:53:53 *tcr* is getting annoyed, type in (getf :foo list) for the second time today. Just too used to GETHASH. 17:55:10 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:37 moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@ETSY.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:56:04 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@proxykno.emea.fedex.com] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 17:57:07 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57:38 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:59:05 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:18 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:00:48 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-196.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:01:38 chakravarthy [chakravart@115.184.60.17] has joined #lisp 18:01:39 -!- Axius_ [~fd@92.85.209.244] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:04:11 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:04:56 is there a channel for ParenScript or is this it? 18:05:06 Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:23 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:06:39 inklesspen: there's mailing list 18:06:53 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 18:07:10 Ah, didn't know there was a mailing list 18:07:15 *seangrove* goes off to find it 18:08:27 syntard: yeah, but they are much more inconvenient than IRC 18:08:54 inklesspen: I agree 18:09:33 this channel can be more inconvenient than a mailing list, though 18:11:27 inklesspen: we can discuss your off topic issue in #lispcafe 18:11:40 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:12:57 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-95.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:14:02 firecrow8 [~fcrow@69.38.169.34] has joined #lisp 18:14:55 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:15:00 Hmm, I just saw the same syntax in the channel topic in clsql - what does this mean: (#1=db/test.sqlite) ? 18:15:02 dfox_ [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-66.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 18:15:51 seangrove: empty list? 18:16:19 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:16:51 clhs ## 18:16:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm 18:16:54 (#1=db/test.sqlite) is the same as '()? 18:16:57 *syntard* forgot to try code before opening mouth 18:16:57 heh, thanks pkhuong_ 18:17:02 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host236-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:17:05 *seangrove* goes off to read 18:18:37 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 18:18:43 Bronsa [~bronsa@host236-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:20:39 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-152-181-62.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: jconrad] 18:20:42 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.73] has joined #lisp 18:22:39 -!- weszlem [~poszl_e_m@chello089073209035.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:24:06 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:25:09 Can any one invite me to "BitMe" ( I am in dam need of it) - chakry [DOT] p @ gmail [DOT] com 18:26:58 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 18:27:39 joeygibson [~joeygibso@c-98-230-153-52.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:37 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:29:45 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:30:11 -!- jeti [~user@p54B4776B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:31:43 -!- Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:31:58 WebNickel [~nickelnic@c-71-229-142-52.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:05 -!- WebNickel [~nickelnic@c-71-229-142-52.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:32:05 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:07 WebNickel [~nickelnic@c-71-229-142-52.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:11 -!- WebNickel [~nickelnic@c-71-229-142-52.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:32:26 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-77-254.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:34:47 jconrad [~jconrad@host109-152-181-62.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:51 -!- jdz [~jdz@host14-105-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:36:02 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:36:14 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:37:02 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-205-101.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:37:08 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:38:28 -!- xan_ [~xan@64.134.240.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:39:10 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-240.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:40:35 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:41:00 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:45:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-147-115.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:46:05 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:47:46 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:50:08 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:50:29 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@144-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 18:53:20 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-ezdojsstghxvhfju] has joined #lisp 18:54:26 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:54:41 chakravarthy: Is that a lisp thing? 18:55:44 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-112-174.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 18:59:18 I'm tring to do some stats on poker hands. I run into space issues when I try to generate all possible 7-card hands... I'm using a function that generates all hands, and then I process and discard them. is there some way to make lisp "automagically" try to process elements ASAP? 19:00:16 (or, you know, changing little code) 19:02:02 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.73] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 19:02:13 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:02:54 Tordek: I think you're talking a hand generator 19:03:02 what is the requirements to use xref with sbcl and slime? currently the slime-xref commands cant find references. 19:03:03 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-112-174.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:32 lhz: use slime-who-calls and friends. should work fine. 19:03:38 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:04:02 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:12 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:04:14 lhz: The relevant code must have been compiled 19:04:44 also the xref information is not stored for some optimization settings 19:04:50 Is it considered a feature that recompiling a DEFGENERIC with a new lambda in SBCL list errors? 19:05:30 gigamonkey: That's not the only condition for the error - there have to be existing incongruous methods too. 19:05:39 The real annoying thing is that it does not have a restart to throw the existing methods away 19:05:40 gigamonkey: if the defgeneric defines all the methods, no error. 19:05:55 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:05:58 Xach, tcr: thanks.. I just did wrong, tried slime-who-calls on a macro 19:06:11 Hmmm. Seems like if I do a compile-file and I've changed the defgeneric and all the defmethods to be compatible it should work. 19:06:20 lhz: Use slime-edit-uses (M-?) instead, it subsumes all the different slime-who-* functions 19:06:34 Tordek: you might want streams, head-strict lazy lists. srfi 40 has a nice description of the pattern. 19:06:48 Doesn't he want maths? 19:07:10 tcr: at some point, yes. 19:07:16 hmm, thanks 19:07:22 dfkjjkfd_ [~paulh@144-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 19:07:59 DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:38 tcr: great 19:09:54 gigamonkey: an appropriate restart would be helpful 19:10:02 *syntard* thinks if you know next-hand, you only need a generator 19:10:12 stassats: I agree. But I also think compile-file should just work. 19:10:23 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-196.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:24 clhs defgeneric 19:10:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defgen.htm 19:10:45 "If a defgeneric form is evaluated and some methods for that generic function have lambda lists that are not congruent with that given in the defgeneric form, an error is signaled." 19:11:34 That does not contradict to what gigamonkey wants; does sbcl really signal an error at compile-time? 19:13:14 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:13:17 i think gigamonkey isn't saying that only compile-file should succeed 19:13:48 gigamonkey, you can either unintern the symbol or try to fmakunbound - but I fear the latter doesn't flush all SBCL caches. 19:13:57 (which is probably a bug to be filed) 19:14:18 fmakunbound works fine for this purpose. 19:14:41 I seem to remember issues when using fmakunbound for ASDF gf's on SBCL. 19:15:15 but that was possibly because I had also such functions in my continuation. 19:15:53 or you can remove methods 19:16:16 -!- dfkjjkfd_ [~paulh@144-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:16:40 upgrading asdf was *particularly* tricky in a way that normal software upgrades hopefully don't have to deal with. 19:23:19 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:23:24 -!- DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:26:09 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:26:37 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-205-101.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:27:38 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:27:46 jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet3706.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #lisp 19:28:07 -!- netytan [~netytan@host81-141-55-142.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:29:46 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has left #lisp 19:29:46 stassats: I am saying that compile-file should succeed, in the case where all the defgeneric and all the defmethods are in the file and have congruent lambda lists with each other. 19:30:14 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host236-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:30:14 Perhaps, that's contrary to the spec but I'm not convinced the bit you quoted above seals it. 19:30:28 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 19:30:38 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:30:53 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has left #lisp 19:31:31 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-68.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:32:40 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.144.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:33:47 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:10 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.47.14] has joined #lisp 19:34:30 netytan [~netytan@host81-141-55-152.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:30 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:35 doing M-? on cursor at (defun myCURSORfunction ...) gives "error in process filter: End of buffer" 19:36:34 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-152-181-62.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:41:23 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:24 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-147-29-4.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:49 -!- chakravarthy [chakravart@115.184.60.17] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:46:44 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 19:52:15 mije [~user@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:19 felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:01 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:39 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:59:58 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:48 xan_ [~xan@209-166-17-98.client.dsl.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:07 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:06 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:04:18 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:45 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:15:08 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet3706.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:16:00 gigamonkey, what if they are not congruent with what's currently in main memory? 20:16:19 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:49 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:17:27 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:18:20 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 20:19:38 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:19:42 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:25 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:24:25 Fare: I still think compile-file should work. I'm recompiling all the relevant definitions together. 20:24:52 that sounds to dwimish 20:25:08 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-199-139.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:25:37 s/to/too/ 20:25:54 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-199-139.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:55 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255513.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:26:21 stassats: I'm not sure why you think so. 20:26:38 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:48 gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.48] has joined #lisp 20:28:09 Just the way if I change the lambda list of a regular function and the calls to that function within the same file, I don't want compile-file to complain if one of the calls appears textually before the function definition. 20:29:09 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:29:09 I'm just saying that whetever checking for congruence is going to happen should wait until the file is completely compiled. 20:29:25 -!- Xof_ [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:29:56 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:30:01 what would you do with textually deleted methods? 20:31:20 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-240.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:31:21 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-176-199-139.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:32 Xof_ [~crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:31:44 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:31:48 I'm okay with that complaining because they do still exist. 20:33:37 But when I've provided new definitions for all the methods, they old ones won't exist once COMPILE-FILE is done. 20:35:10 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-240.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:38:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:38:26 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:38:38 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:40:37 gigamonkey: grazie mille for the PCL chapter on FORMAT. dunno what I'd do without it. :) 20:41:22 felideon: you're welcome 20:41:36 lispbot is down? 20:41:37 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:13 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:42:15 anyone know if there's a way to consolidate this code into one magic FORMAT expression --> http://paste.lisp.org/display/116814 20:42:57 or would that just be too cryptic, not worth it. 20:43:32 *`3b* would vote storing names in pieces as the 'not worth it' part :p 20:44:12 hah, good point. 20:44:17 not my schema :P 20:44:28 felideon: Less magic is best. 20:44:53 astalla [~Alessio@dynamic-adsl-78-12-79-183.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 20:45:14 having INFINITE-ERROR-PROTECT try to grab non-recursive locks: not a winning strategy 20:45:27 <`3b> don't forget to skip the extra space for people with no middle initial too 20:46:18 francogrex [~user@109.130.104.108] has joined #lisp 20:46:52 sykopomp: true 20:47:56 <`3b> if you had NIL instead of "" you could, but i don't remember any way to check the length or contents of a string from a format control 20:48:16 <`3b> aside from the obvious ~//, but that doesn't count 20:48:18 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 20:49:19 yeah, NIL is covered by PCL 20:49:22 :) 20:49:25 store names in something more structured? 20:50:14 -!- hdurer_ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:50:14 hdurer_ [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 20:52:38 -!- devinus_ is now known as devinus 20:52:53 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:10 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:28 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 20:56:48 felideon: considering the size of the task, why not just use with-output-to-string and format names yourself, using PRINC (or simple FORMAT statements)? 20:58:04 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-240.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:59:09 -!- cerebral_monkey [berkley@c-66-177-48-213.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:59:26 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:01:55 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 21:02:53 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:04:35 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:42 sykopomp: not sure what you mean by size of the task 21:04:57 Hmm, I seem to get an UNBOUND-SLOT whenever I do UPDATE-RECORDS-FROM-INSTANCE in CLSQL, however a record is created in the database, I'm positive this used to work previously on an older version of SBCL and CLSQL, any ideas? 21:05:48 sykopomp: I just need to call that function withing a postmodern/s-sql (:as (:raw ... )). 21:05:59 sykopomp: i'm not really sure when to use w-o-t-s 21:06:02 petter`: I'm not sure, sorry. I think the clsql list might be a better venue for the question, though - not sure there are a lot of clsql users here. 21:06:35 Xach: ok, thanks, I'll try the mailing list 21:06:42 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:07:07 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255513.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:07:28 Alessio_ [~Alessio@dynamic-adsl-78-12-86-72.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:07:42 felideon: (defun format-name (first-name last-name &key middle suffix) (with-output-to-string (s) (princ first-name s) (when middle (format s " ~A" middle)) (format s " ~A" last-name) (when suffix ", ~A" suffx))) 21:08:01 (when suffix (format s ", ~A" suffix)) 21:08:02 petter`: What slot does it complain about? 21:08:30 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:08:37 DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:02 Xach: it complains about the primary key which is of type serial, I've done this in the past, only upgraded SBCL and CLSQL 21:09:31 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-147-29-4.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:09:36 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:09:44 sykopomp: hmm 21:10:23 sykopomp: thanks 21:10:29 felideon: np. 21:10:30 -!- astalla [~Alessio@dynamic-adsl-78-12-79-183.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:10:43 Xach: seems like the version slot in clsql asdf is unbound as well (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :clsql)) 21:10:54 petter`: how do you initialize the primary key slot? 21:10:57 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:42 Xach: but (asdf:component-pathname (asdf:find-system :clsql)) gives #P"/home/petter/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/clsql-20100928-git/" so it's a pretty recent release 21:11:42 21:12:04 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:12:19 Xach: I don't, the point is to let the database take care of that 21:12:52 Xach: the backend is postgresql btw 21:13:08 petter`: I wonder if it's designed to work like that. 21:14:44 petter`: it complains about usage of SERIAL for primary key? 21:14:45 Xach: hmm, like I said I think I've done this in the past, I haven't touched the code in a while and I have thousands of records in my database, I can't seem to remember having to write lisp code generating unique keys either 21:15:08 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@254-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:15:41 gigamonkey: Am I misremembering, or did you have a "how I built PCL" article somewhere that showed how you did things like include code snippets? 21:15:46 Xach: You don't normally insert data into fields that have type SERIAL in Postgres, unless you're loading a database dump 21:15:48 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:15:49 Xach: it complains about the primary key (ID in my case) being unbound when I do a update-records-from-instance 21:15:53 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.88.209] has joined #lisp 21:15:55 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:55 -!- xan_ [~xan@209-166-17-98.client.dsl.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:15:57 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 21:16:10 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:22 I understand and agree about how postgresql works, I still wonder if clsql is working as designed or not. 21:18:02 Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:05 hmm... maybe there's some way to inform CLSQL to ignore the field 21:18:14 or rather, ignore it when updating 21:19:14 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:20:55 it seems like the problem occur after the database has been updated, I'll try to use some older versions and see if I can get it to work, I have several hundred thousand records in my database which have been updated using update-records-from-instance somehow 21:21:21 thank you for your help anyway... 21:21:23 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21:29 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 21:22:27 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-145-187-136.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:37 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:58 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 21:24:15 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-46-233.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:25:06 petter`: Are you creating the new instance on the lisp side and then creating it on the database side? or are the objects the result of a select, and then you change a field, and then want to sync back to the db? 21:26:53 Xach: everything is created on the lisp side, even the tables, I just tried SBCL 1.0.19-gentoo and an old CLSQL and it worked fine 21:28:20 petter`: It would surprise me if sbcl version was a factor. I wonder what changed in CLSQL since that older version. 21:30:23 erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:30:48 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:31:16 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:40 reveng [~user@234.137.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:32:35 -!- reveng [~user@234.137.broadband2.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:41 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.48] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:33:29 Xach: I have one single sexp (update-records-from-instance (make-instance 'paperhistory ... which I paste into the repl after compiling and connecting, the results are different depending upon if I use the old and new sbcl/clsql and connecting to the same postgresql 21:33:52 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.89] has joined #lisp 21:35:23 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-204-211.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:35 -!- DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:37:51 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-220-37.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:37:54 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:38:32 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:39:01 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:33 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:41:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:41:13 varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:42:01 Maybe it's a new feature, as there are some restarts USE-VALUE and STORE-VALUE, but they both seem to hang. I better check the new CLSQL documentation 21:42:36 _mo_ [~mo@93-32-60-168.ip32.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:43:28 petter`: by the way, there is a newer version of quicklisp available 21:43:40 <_mo_> need a suggestion on which of the following to read first: practical common lisp, ansi common lisp, land of lisp 21:43:44 Makoryu [~bloodgog@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:54 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslep031.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:43:58 _mo_: swap the last two 21:44:10 _mo_: and maybe stick Paradigms of AI Programming in front of ANSI Common Lisp 21:44:57 *`3b* votes for whichever of Practical Common Lisp or Land of Lisp you think would hold your interest better 21:46:10 <_mo_> Xach, so practical common lisp, land of lisp, PAIP, then ansi common lisp? 21:46:12 Xach: thanks, I'll try an update 21:46:20 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:46:21 Xach: Is ACL still valuable at that point? 21:46:31 Maybe. 21:46:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 21:46:38 *sellout* read it before there was a PCL, but doesn't know if he would bother now. 21:46:45 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:46 *Xach* sold his copy of ACL 21:47:06 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:47:27 *`3b* would probably pick keene or amop over acl 21:47:54 _mo_: drop ACL from that list, after PAIP I'd rather recommend AMOP 21:47:59 -!- petter` [~user@217.118.44.36] has left #lisp 21:48:50 xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:50 hmm. has anyone been able to take a deeper look at NIL (the language), and if so, any ref.? 21:49:18 gigamonkey, it would work if you were compiling to a different package, that gets magically renamed in the end 21:49:20 there is quite a lot of CL books when one looks carefully, but PCL, Gentle, Land of Lisp, SICP, PAIP, that CLOS guide, AMOP and few articles exhaust my recommendation list 21:49:23 SB!C style 21:49:28 hypno: it's dead? 21:49:37 <_mo_> sorry had to do a quick google, AMOP is for art of metaobject protocol? 21:49:44 _mo_: yes 21:49:59 hypno: outside of #+/#- jokes I don't think I have seen NIL recently :) 21:50:07 from the little bits of peaces i've found it seems to be a concurrent distributed lisp. no idea if it is cool, etc tho. 21:50:22 p_l|home: eheh.. 21:50:32 <_mo_> p_l|home, i'm going through SICP and HTDP at the moment 21:50:41 hypno: it's dead, firstly 21:50:53 and it was Maclisp for VAX 21:51:05 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:58 hypno: oh, and it failed 21:52:40 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:53:31 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:54:09 p_l|home: ok, so dead end. but failed? 21:54:24 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:09 hypno: the project didn't reach its goals 21:56:33 according to Wikipedia's timeline it died faster than the lisp it was replacing :P 21:57:19 sellout: I'm think you're misremembering. 21:57:28 Though I have a blog post about how to write a book. 21:57:32 p_l|home: ah, ok. some redditor made a remark that it was used on routers and that it was essentially the erlang before erlang except more high level... 21:57:33 But nothing about the mechanics that I recall. 21:57:49 *gigamonkey* is in the midst of writing a good diff program for Markup. 21:57:51 hypno: then he was thinking of something completely different, not NIL 21:57:58 (Speaking of mechanics.) 21:58:24 hypno: of router software I know that fits such description, there's one but it isn't Lisp related 21:58:58 and I'm not sure if it could have dealt with as much concurrency as Erlang 21:59:17 hypno: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIL_(programming_language) 21:59:59 Fare: I'm still waiting for someone to cite chapter and verse about why the compiler *has* to treat my situation as an error. 22:00:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_%28programming_language%29 actually seems a bit more interesting than NIL 22:00:26 I could believe it, though. Though I'm inclined to think of that as a misfeature of the spec, if it's true. 22:00:31 republican_devil [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:52 p_l|home: http://www.reddit.com/user/dnew there is first an entry about it, and then scroll down he writes ome more. 22:02:11 gigamonkey, is it an error in CCL? 22:02:31 gigamonkey, I think that with any PCL descendant, you're out of luck anyway. 22:03:14 Fare: beause the test is just built into the implementation of DEFGENERIC? 22:03:20 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:03:26 dlowe: you can ask riastradh about T. 22:04:10 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:42 mongrel2 work with lisp? 22:05:57 Ralith [~ralith@d142-58-43-236.burnaby.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:06:43 if zmq works with lisp mongrel2 will. 22:06:54 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-ezdojsstghxvhfju] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:16 ... 22:07:22 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757625.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:33 wasn't mongrel a Ruby-specific web server? 22:08:22 (sure, you could probably make it run as proxy) 22:08:30 -!- davertron [~ddcddavis@vt-bt-254.dealer.com] has quit [Quit: davertron] 22:08:59 I think it used to be Ruby-specific 22:09:10 But now it's general purpose 22:09:25 -!- sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 22:09:26 It was always written largely in C anyway 22:09:31 if i should start with web applications in CL, which web framework would be the most simple to start with ? 22:09:50 Makoryu: yes, but it worked on the basis of embedding Ruby in itself 22:10:21 mije: (format t "

Hello, world

") ; Probably not what you wanted 22:10:46 p_l|home: Yep. And now this can be done in a variety of ways 22:11:12 Makoryu: it's ok, but i'd like to avoid CGI stuff :) 22:11:31 still, the only sensibly embeddable CL's out there are ACL, LW and ECL 22:11:44 mije: CGI isn't related to how you generate HTML 22:12:10 (though PHP seems irreversibly married to CGI model) 22:12:36 p_l|home: yep but it's related on how you run what generates html 22:12:41 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:13:06 mije: most people run a webserver in CL image which is behind a proxy/loadbalancer 22:13:22 mije: depending what you mean by "framework" you may want to start with Hunchentoot. 22:13:41 lichtblau: ping 22:13:43 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:50 Anyway, it's a web server in CL and you can take it from there. ;-) 22:14:03 usual suspect is Hunchentoot, though some frameworks use different (typically the descendant of the server in UCW). Some people used FastCGI 22:14:45 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:15:17 for a framework... well, there's UCW, Weblocks, etc. Some stuff can be assembled from freely available libs (like routing and hooks for URIs through defservice, HTML generation in YACLML, ORM in Postmodern, etc.) 22:15:26 ok i'll start with hunchentoot and see how it goes from there 22:15:28 thanks 22:15:32 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:17:52 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3ADE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:18:47 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:56 -!- mije [~user@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:11 whats zmq 22:25:10 http://mongrel2.org/doc/tip/docs/manual/book.wiki#x1-640005.2 22:25:12 oh 22:27:16 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:31 rpg, herep 22:29:47 gigamonkey, because defgeneric side-effects global datastructures, at compile-time as well as run-time. 22:30:20 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 22:31:07 -!- devinus [~devinus@65.107.181.222.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:20 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:16 devinus [~devinus@ps23102.dreamhost.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:55 Fare: right, but isn't the whole point of compile-file (and with-compilation-unit) that thoes side effects don't happen (or are not seen to happen) until the compile-file (or with-compilation-unit) is done? 22:32:56 hypno: btw, didn't you make a mistake and think of LISP, CAR, CDR and other new IPv6-related terms? :) 22:33:26 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:33:40 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:33:52 gigamonkey, maybe you're right. I'm not convinced PCL and/or the clever optimizations out there know to make the difference. 22:34:06 I'm not convinced that you've diagnosed the problem right 22:34:32 probably not. 22:34:57 one of the problems with changing defgeneric / defmethod signatures is that a new defgeneric only clears the methods of the generic function that were defined with a previous defgeneric (in :method clauses) rather than separate defmethod clauses 22:35:05 p_l|home: that one went /way/ over my head, i'm afraid. 22:35:16 I seem to remember problems with method caches, too. 22:35:26 Krystof: but is that required. Or that just happens to be how it is? 22:35:39 that is the defined semantics of defgeneric 22:35:54 those are the defined semantics :-) 22:35:58 so if other methods exist, there will be a conflict? 22:36:10 hypno: CISCO decided to be douches (as well as several other people involved with new routing protocols) and used Lisp-related terms to name new routing protocols and their terms 22:36:15 And are you obligated to complain about mismatched lambda lists? 22:36:22 otoh, Cisco being douches isn't anything new 22:36:26 and of course, a load-time fmakunbound is too late, and a compile-time fmakunbound too early? 22:36:43 Krystof: since you got us all hooked on teclo-news on planet.lisp, i think i speak for everyone when i say: we want more! ;) 22:36:51 The effect of the defgeneric macro is as if the following three steps were performed: first, methods defined by previous defgeneric forms are removed; second, ensure-generic-function is called; and finally, methods specified by the current defgeneric form are added to the generic function. 22:37:07 hypno: heh. One of the more urgent jobs is to get an actual teclo website going 22:37:17 so that we look like a company rather than a bunch of cowboys 22:37:20 p_l|home: ah. :) 22:37:28 I think I tried fmakunbound for ASDF gf's and had horrible results when I redefined the classes to not have the asdf:around method anymore. 22:37:38 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-153-37-223.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:43 my next blog entry would be almost entirely on technical bits about estimating standard errors of linear models with categorical variables 22:37:51 and I'm not utterly convinced that planet lisp wants to hear about that 22:38:00 also my boss works me way too hard to blog 22:38:07 Krystof: well, the current one looks alright at least. i've been checking every week or so for updates and a blog. :) 22:38:28 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-145-187-136.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:38:28 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 22:38:28 Okay, so ensure-generic-function has to signal an error. And is there no lattitude for compile-file to muffle that error when everything is put back to rights by the end of the compile-file? 22:38:30 If not, then I call spec bug. 22:39:05 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050068143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:39:06 it can join the long list 22:39:30 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-68.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:39:37 I am amused that comp.lang.lisp is revisiting the (array nil) string thing 22:40:03 it's very good of Xach to puncture the "spec writers omniscience" meme 22:40:09 is there something like a (reverse! lst) in cl? i.e. (setf lst (reverse lst)) in one call? 22:40:18 also, gigamonkey, I had a very short discussion with Daniel Herring about the ALU 22:40:24 still want to run the takeover plan? 22:41:05 ALU takeover? 22:41:12 yan_: nreverse 22:41:30 I am both excited and afraid by an ILC in Japan - considering how bad communication with our japanese colleagues was, and how it may thin out even more the attendance 22:42:05 p_l|home: the removal of all the superannuated nonagenarians whose only function is to put people off having anything to do with any Lisp community, by reminiscing about how things were so much better 50 years ago 22:42:07 yan_: nreverse doesn't really do what you want. 22:42:31 Krystof: I don't want to run it but I think it's totally doable. 22:42:36 Krystof: hmmm... 22:42:45 gigamonkey: nreverse is just recycling version of reverse? 22:43:02 yan_: that's right. It doesn't set the reversed value back to the place it came from. 22:43:07 gigamonkey: (btw i started using pcl for learning this a month or two ago, and wanted to give a huge thanks. it's awesome) 22:43:13 You still need (setf list (nreverse list)) 22:43:21 yan_: glad you like it! 22:43:52 Krystof: here's the very short version of my plan: 22:44:51 (I got cross with dherring for announcing that he / the ALU had rumours about the European meetings all going into decline, on the highly visible place that is Xach's blog) 22:45:03 1. Someone writes a one-page description of what they think should be done with the ALU's two assets: the lisp.org domain and ~ $50,000 in the bank. 22:46:12 Krystof: wut? ECLS seems to be going steady. Sure, there seems to be some more groups, but they aren't that big compared to the scale of the country... 22:46:12 2. That person then finds another person who agrees with the plan and is willing to be on the ALU board. 22:46:12 3-9: the people already gathered continue gathering folks, one at a time, until they have eight people who agree with the plan and willing to become the ALU board. 22:46:13 10. Show up at the next ALU meeting with a bunch of proxies and become the board. 22:46:41 srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 22:46:42 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 22:47:22 ok. gigamonkey -- are you going to be one of the 8 people? 22:47:33 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:54 hmm... what to do with lisp.org seems rather simple. I can't help regarding the 8 people due to not being too financially viable to pay ALU membership et al... 22:48:14 I suppose I could be. But I can't be #1. 22:48:51 p_l|home: actually I don't think (strangely) you need to be an ALU member to be on the board. 22:49:24 I'd be wary of the $50k question. lisp.org is a much simpler thing, though it would require someone with thick skin 22:50:42 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:50:42 p_l|home: while almost anything would be better than what's there now, not everyone agrees on what lisp.org should become. CL only? All Lisps? If the latter, do we have pretend to respect newLisp? 22:51:17 gigamonkey: clojure and scheme seems to have their own "central sites" 22:51:17 Anyway, that's why I think one person (i.e. not a committee) should write the plan and then if there are enough people who think it's a good plan, away you go. 22:51:39 outside of those, not much happens (and Emacs Lisp got obvious other places) 22:53:01 -!- Alessio_ [~Alessio@dynamic-adsl-78-12-86-72.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:01 I'd say lisp.org should be concentrated on CL and interlinked to schemers.org, clojure.org and possible some other sources... 22:53:29 as for newlisp, check how much it "brings" to the community (not necessarily in monetary terms) and decide on that :D 22:53:32 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-232-119-3.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:32 p_l|home: sure. But one could make the argument that if one cares more about the platonic Lisp than CL, per say, that lisp.org should be more expansive, even if there are other places for specific information. 22:55:15 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:55:15 I'm not even sure what I think would be best but certainly different folks can reasonably want different things. 22:55:15 Though any plan that entails respecting newLisp is probably a non-starter for me. ;-) 22:55:45 my argument towards CL being the main driving force is that other places have their communities organized differently and around different places, while CL lacks good "central" site 22:56:19 iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:54 btw, I believe I've seen why once before, but why so much dislike for newlisp? I seem to have expunged my memory on that, though it doesn't seem that I disagreed... 22:57:19 dynamic scoping only (or by default), I think is the main sin. 22:57:29 what's newlisp? 22:57:37 ugh 22:58:38 also, now that I read about it, it's weird semantics for lisps 22:58:39 *lists 22:59:31 ... okay, whatever we do, we don't include newlisp 23:00:28 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.104.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:39 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-15-150.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:01:00 doesn't newlisp also have the ridiculous array indexing as concatenation of symbol and index strategy? 23:01:20 ... there was something about indexing, I stopped reading before that 23:01:44 (aref x 4) => (symbol-value 'x4) ; or similar 23:02:07 the boss is leaving the office now so I can be opinionated on IRC! 23:02:12 whatever - conferences are more interesting if instead of insisting on "thou shalt use the same tool as I" we insist on "thou shalt bring interesting ideas to discuss". 23:02:32 gigamonkey: about compile-file/with-compilation-unit: i think it must do whatever sequential compiles would do but show warnings only at the end, in such way that forward calls to functions don't generate warnings 23:02:35 nothing else 23:02:46 clearly lisp.org should offer e-mail forwarding services 23:03:31 so, for generic functions and methods, it's as if things were sequential. if a defmethod appears that doesn't agree with the lambda-list of a current generic function, it's an error (not a warning) 23:04:28 at the very least, lisp.org should have a merged cliki/aluwiki. The split isn't fun, IMHO 23:04:37 (to correct myself) ... forward calls to functions defined in the same compilation units ... 23:04:52 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-169-182-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:04 -!- joeygibson [~joeygibso@c-98-230-153-52.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: joeygibson] 23:06:17 pmd: I can believe you're right. But it's unfortunate. 23:07:01 I have frankly never really noticed ALU at all 23:07:06 is it really that important 23:07:15 they have a great big lock on some stuff 23:07:51 by existing, they prevent a more active and relevant organization from existing 23:07:59 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:37 Doesn't sound very productive 23:08:47 takeover would be a chance to centralize various Lisp-related resources... as for info about clojure and scheme and other implementations... it would be better to contact the respective communities on that, it's not like they all hang out here, right? 23:09:09 ACLU 23:09:50 *p_l|home* thinks about droppign to #scheme and #clojure and ask them if they would be opposed to the idea of lisp.org being CL-specific but interlinked with schemers.org and clojure.org 23:09:54 *dropping 23:10:48 I don't think lisp.org is an asset, and anyone who wants to make a nice site for CL can just do it and win. 23:10:59 Same with an organization. 23:11:14 it doesn't necessarily make sense to put a lot of #scheme and #clojure material on the same site -- but it makes a lot of sense to prominently link to these languages on our main page, and other relevant pages. 23:11:26 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050068143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:11:38 Fare: that's my idea 23:11:54 as for lisp.org... it would fit with how people search for information 23:12:01 the ALU is not such a big deal. 23:12:39 it's not like they are preventing other people from organizing their own Lisp conferences, etc. 23:12:40 -!- bsod1_ is now known as bsod1 23:12:46 yeah, my ideas are mostly related to lisp.org because I didn't see much activity outside ILC 23:12:50 -!- bsod1 is now known as bsod1_ 23:12:55 -!- bsod1_ is now known as bsod1 23:13:17 btw, is usocket-udp anywhere near being merged into usocket? 23:14:44 or is that done already? 23:16:36 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:07 Fare: already done, i believe, or will be done very soon. 23:18:23 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.174.211] has joined #lisp 23:18:44 looks like it's done. Yay. 23:18:46 Fare: ah, the usocket in quicklisp has usocket-udp merged. 23:18:57 has anyone used the CL zeromq library much? I'm wondering if anyone else feels it's a little 'unlispy' 23:19:39 Xach: if I want to have an "alternative" source for quicklisp packages, so that they include xcvb support, how do I do that? 23:20:26 does it help/hinder you if I put my xcvb changes in the "master" branch of my forked git repo as opposed to another branch? 23:21:02 rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:44 Fare: You would need to create the metadata that is expressed in ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/ *.txt files, like systems.txt, releases.txt, and distinfo.txt 23:21:54 Fare: and create the software archives referenced by that metadata. 23:22:05 does it allow for a non-master branch in git repos? 23:22:10 Fare: the process is unfortunately not documented, but i have helped gigamonkey understand it. 23:22:47 Fare: I don't quite understand what you mean. You would maintain your own copies of libraries with changes to make them use xcvb? 23:23:17 Fare: It would just be your responsibility to produce software archives, put them on the web, and point to them from your metadata files. 23:24:04 Xach: yes, until XCVB is widely adopted, I have to maintain my own modified copies of libraries. 23:24:30 sad but true. 23:25:03 especially since the conversion from asdf is only 90% automatic, with a dirty remaining 10%. 23:25:17 Fare: what about the asdf integration? It was available at some point, I believe, even if you couldn't parallelize their compilation... 23:26:51 there is asdf integration in that xcvb builds can easily depend on asdf systems. 23:27:15 The other way around is also possible with xcvb-master, though not as completely automated. 23:27:38 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.174.211] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:04 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.174.211] has joined #lisp 23:28:10 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-58-43-236.burnaby.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:28:20 not important yet, since no one will adopt xcvb as primary tool until it supports as many implementations as asdf, anyway. 23:28:54 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 23:29:29 -!- dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:29:30 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.95] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:31:52 Okay, this prose diff tool is awesome. Yay! 23:31:59 *gigamonkey* is very happy with his past few days of hacking. 23:32:14 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-8-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:24 Fare: does it work well enough with CCL? 23:32:34 gigamonkey: prose-specific diff? 23:33:24 p_l|home: yeah. 23:33:27 kenanb [~kenanb@88.243.169.186] has joined #lisp 23:34:19 Actually it's a Markup diff at the moment. 23:34:56 seangrove [~user@70-0-107-45.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:57 But it doesn't get all confused by inserted and deleted paragraphs and diffs at the word rather than the line level. 23:37:05 xcvb works great with CCL 23:37:24 for the forking feature, you have to dump a single-threaded-ccl image first, though. 23:37:32 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:37:52 currently, xcvb only supports sbcl, ccl, clisp, on unix. 23:38:23 asdf supports 10 implementations, maybe 11 (if corman hasn't bitrotten too much), on both unix and windows 23:39:25 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 23:39:26 I'm curious if anyone runs asdf2 on an old mac or genera or movitz, or some other fancy system. 23:39:41 if not for X.Org, I could test it on Genera 23:39:45 jajcloz [~jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:00 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:40:08 p_l|home, if you beg brad, he may send you his latest genera binary 23:41:12 Fare: Does it have modified CLX for Genera? 23:41:19 uh? 23:41:39 does what? 23:41:40 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 23:41:42 Fare: cause current X.Org is incompatible with Genera 23:41:45 *OpenGenera 23:42:28 I need to get an old Xserver set up one day and run it against it 23:42:40 asdf seems to have started printing a list of load-op objects, creating a lot of noise during compile 23:42:45 a 4.3 Xnest maybe 23:42:57 any idea how to silence it? 23:44:29 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:47:33 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:51:14 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 23:52:04 Guthur: how do you start asdf ? 23:52:45 (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'foo) 23:52:51 fare: ^ 23:53:27 I assume that's what you mean by start 23:54:22 yes. 23:54:35 Weird. I don't know that it should be more verbose than before. 23:54:39 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Quit:] 23:54:48 You can try :verbose nil, I suppose, but that's not a very good answer. 23:55:09 can you paste.lisp.org the difference in behaviour? 23:55:38 It's allowable to do (map-into v some-fn v), right? 23:56:19 fare: maybe it was always this verbose, I wasn't using CL for a while there 23:56:36 :verbose nil isn't exactly what I want either though 23:56:51 -!- _mo_ [~mo@93-32-60-168.ip32.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:57:16 mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:29 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:26 fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116824 23:58:43 gigamonkey: share the hacks! 23:58:53 that's it at it's worst, build on clean Lisp environment 23:59:42 it's all that ASDF stuff at the bottom that seems weird 23:59:58 *Xach* is going on an epic hack-sharing session soon, maybe tonight