00:00:46 jeti [~user@p548E9F4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:32 rTypo [~rTypo@pc54.clicknet.iasi.rdsnet.ro] has joined #lisp 00:04:03 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.57.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:07:25 -!- younder [~jthing@124.202.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:08:50 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:22 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:40 -!- tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:2462:38c8:9ca6:551f] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:10:08 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 00:10:23 tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:3474:22be:9ca6:551f] has joined #lisp 00:10:35 How do I refer to XMLHttpRequest in parenscript? The symbol conversion isn't very friendly... 00:11:34 *xml-http-request => XmlHttpRequest 00:11:35 :( 00:12:17 ohhh 00:12:19 percii [~percii@92.98.127.211] has joined #lisp 00:12:28 -!- hdurer_ [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:12:29 Greetings 00:12:32 gosh, that's messy. *X-M-L-Http-Request :( 00:12:53 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:57 I've only spent a few minutes learnining about LISP 00:13:36 I wanted to ask if '(Hello) and list 'Hello are equivalent? 00:14:44 If you mean '(hello) and (list 'hello) they are not exactly equivalent. 00:15:13 Though both evaluate to a list containing a single item, the symbol whose name is "HELLO" 00:15:38 sykopomp, Yeah I never liked that either 00:15:43 sykopomp: could be worse. X-M-L-H-T-T-P-Request 00:15:44 The main difference is that '(hello) should not be modified because it may be a compile time constant. 00:16:18 Whereas (list 'hello) is guaranteed to be made of fresh off the shelf cons cells. 00:16:27 Shame there is no way to specify to use the literal casing 00:17:30 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:32 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:42 sykopomp: that's why I made the xml and js syntax in hu.dwim.quasi-quote to be case sensitive 00:19:59 gigamonkey, after further studying, I've learned that list evaluates expressions whereas quote doesn't 00:20:02 my half baked JS thing simply preserves symbol case when translating symbols with mixed-cased symbol-name's 00:20:28 percii: indeed, that is the entire reason for QUOTE existing 00:20:29 -!- s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:20:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:20:44 Guthurd do you mean (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) ? 00:21:11 trance [~trance@unaffiliated/trance] has joined #lisp 00:21:15 percii: that's also true. So '(hello) and (list hello) are very different. 00:21:31 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.73.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:21:35 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 00:21:54 thank you gigamonkey and drewc 00:22:16 pjb: I may have done 00:22:26 That works in Parenscript then? 00:23:45 stupid question... are foo.bar() and foo[bar()] equivalent in JS?... 00:26:43 sykopomp: iirc . has precedence, so no 00:27:37 I mean in the latter bar will be looked up in the lexenv, while in the former in foo's env 00:28:21 drewc: why does yaclml spit out closing > for markup on the next line? :( 00:28:52 sykopomp: when you know the answer to that question, you will have reached dom enlightenment! 00:29:12 sykopomp: (and don't be sad, yaclml is doing the right thing) 00:30:42 drewc: heh. 00:30:42 Guthur: that works when READ is used. 00:30:56 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.56] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:17 sykopomp: basically, the non-facetious answer is "because that's the only semantically correct way to indent xml/html" 00:31:18 -!- devinus_ [~devinus@cpe-66-68-82-202.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:31:43 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:31:46 huh. Weird. 00:32:29

and

[newline][indentation]

are _very_ different, and when you want the former, getting the latter is not fun. 00:33:46 -!- SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:33:48 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:39 -!- gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:38:08 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:40:08 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:40:39 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:41:08 devinus- [~devinus@cpe-66-68-82-202.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:36 -!- logia_th [~nmo@7.Red-81-44-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:42:18 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 00:44:14 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-222.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:44:19 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:27 xinming [~hyy@115.221.11.124] has joined #lisp 00:44:47 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 00:45:05 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:46:58 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:47:45 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:00 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:49:05 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:18 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:50:20 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:03 felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-225-69.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:43 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.11.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:58:51 does #P"/Library/Frameworks/" specify that "/Library/Frameworks/" is a path? 01:00:43 yes 01:00:46 -!- Revolve [~hi@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:01:19 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:29 in general what does # do? 01:02:32 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:02:32 schell: # just happened to be a common dispatching macro character 01:03:00 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-84-85.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:00 by itself it doesn't have any meaning, but it's used by most standard macrocharacters 01:03:18 ah, okay, so it gets expanded into something else that defines the path with the following string 01:03:25 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:39 kmurph79 [~kmurph79@66-215-55-253.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:45 Revolve [~hi@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:36 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.251.4] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 01:07:13 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:12:26 xinming [~hyy@115.221.12.152] has joined #lisp 01:13:38 -!- Revolve [~hi@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:15:24 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BBC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:16:21 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 01:17:20 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:25 ok my library formerly known as CLON is now called Proton. https://github.com/dto/proton 01:17:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-201-226.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:18:00 jeti:thanks 01:18:11 Revolve [~hi@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:53 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:59 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 01:20:14 The SBCL manual says: "Applications using multiple threads can be save-lisp-and-die friendly by registering a save-hook that quits any additional threads, and an init-hook that restarts them." Would someone please give me an example? 01:21:08 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:22:14 How can I modify this to make it save-lisp-and-die friendly as mentioned above: (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 'il-core) 01:24:15 beach, how is you new version of clim progressing? 01:25:50 drl: push functions that save the state of your threads to save-hook before dumping core, and restore them using init-hooks. 01:25:53 dto1: so Didier Verna is an ogre who stomped on your gardern! 01:26:11 drl: seems pretty self evident, what exactly are you trying to do? 01:26:20 -!- trance [~trance@unaffiliated/trance] has left #lisp 01:26:44 does beach working on a new clim implementation? is there any link? 01:26:59 is/does, sorry 01:27:38 kenanb: no, he's working on a new CL implementation called sicl, on common-lisp.net 01:28:16 schell: #P"..." returns the result of evaluating (pathname "..."). 01:28:28 ^ reading #P"..." 01:28:59 The evaluation is done at read time, later you only have a literal pathname. 01:29:03 pjb: he's also designing a sort of CLIM 3.0, last I heard 01:29:09 Ah, good. 01:29:09 SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:13 ah i see 01:29:22 drewc, everything is self evident if you already understand it. :>) I just want to save my lisp so I don't have to reload all the libraries each time I begin programming. 01:29:27 well check this out 01:29:46 drl: why are you worred about threads then? 01:30:05 i've got package.lisp in ./ and a library called rtaudio.a in ./rtaudio/rtaudio-4.0.7/ 01:30:08 according to clhs #P<> is equivalent to #.(parse-namestring '<>) 01:30:22 i'm trying to load the lib using cffi but to no avail 01:30:30 drl: if you don't have any threads that need their state saved/restored, you don't really have to worry about saving and restoring thread state. 01:30:54 http://pastebin.com/GhGBkWaX 01:31:08 drewc, Because threads prevent (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 'il-core) from working. 01:31:23 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:31:25 Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:42 which threads, and why are you running them prior to dumping core? 01:32:53 likely slime threads.. and one solution is to write a short lisp file to load the systems and save the core, and do sbcl --load ze-file.lisp 01:33:11 *Xach* uses buildapp for that sort of thing with great love and happyness 01:33:22 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:33:38 drewc, I don't know. I didn't start any threads so far as I know. 01:33:38 ahh slime threads, right. i hadn't even thought of someone trying to save a core from slime 01:34:20 Yes, I'm using slime. 01:34:34 what do you guys do to have Lisp properly handle C-c/C-d? 01:34:47 sykopomp: "properly"? 01:34:54 drl: don't attempt to dump a core from within slime, use a short dump-core.lisp and --load it. 01:35:07 sykopomp: if you want proper handling, switch terminal into different mode 01:35:13 sykopomp: if you put your terminal in raw mode, you can read control characters just like any other character. 01:35:20 yeah 01:35:45 ah. Well, I guess that would work, wouldn't it? :) 01:36:07 the default mode is a middle ground between IBM 3270-style block terminal and raw mode :) 01:36:42 *Xach* sometimes wishes terminal mode switching was part of the default runtime 01:37:04 drewc, I don't know what you mean by " use a short dump-core.lisp and --load it." 01:37:47 Xach: you mean part of CL itself? 01:38:02 drl: http://xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ is an sbcl application that is designed to make it easy to load an application and save an image as an executable. 01:38:09 drl: maybe it will help 01:38:19 p_l|home: no, just sbcl's runtime. so i don't have to define it myself. 01:39:00 Xach, thanks. 01:39:56 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:00 Xach: does it work without --entry? 01:40:28 adeht: you mean to give a default repl? hmm, no. good point. 01:40:46 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41:00 i also wish the default repl were exported! 01:43:21 anair_84 [~anair_84@149.142.112.2] has joined #lisp 01:44:26 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:22 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:51:28 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@239-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 01:53:30 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:53 makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has joined #lisp 02:01:27 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:03:24 rtoym_ [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:10 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:04:11 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:04:11 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:04:15 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has joined #lisp 02:04:21 -!- rtoym_ is now known as rtoym 02:04:55 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-251-4.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 02:06:41 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:08:40 -!- schell [~schellsci@c-76-103-111-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:08:50 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:09:15 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-142-86-205.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:09:15 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-44-124.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:09:25 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-251-4.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 02:09:37 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:10:03 Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-142-86-205.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:42 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:47 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 02:10:51 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.209] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:14:09 -!- cmsimon [~cms@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:14:59 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-225-69.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:19:12 -!- PuffTheMagic is now known as DrunkenMaster 02:19:18 How can I get beirc to connect to a server? 02:19:23 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-54.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:20:43 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:39 vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-54.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 02:22:53 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:24:08 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:24:10 chewbran1a [~chewbranc@c-24-18-241-128.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:23 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:23 fisxoj [~fisxoj@rrcs-184-74-128-29.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:21 -!- chewbranca [~chewbranc@c-24-18-241-128.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:27:05 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:29:36 -!- jeti [~user@p548E9F4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:34:17 murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has joined #lisp 02:34:29 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-84-85.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:35:08 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:35:44 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:37:46 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 02:38:17 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 02:40:43 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@202-173-169-138.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:41:19 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@203-206-27-157.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:41:31 MorganB [~user@ip70-171-0-238.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:48 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 02:44:38 -!- devinus- [~devinus@cpe-66-68-82-202.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:44:43 Is there a way a user can generate a compiler note, say from a compiler macro? 02:46:48 implementation dependant 02:46:57 SBCL 02:47:24 chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has joined #lisp 02:48:01 check sb-c::note 02:48:06 or something like that 02:49:56 (apropos 'note 'sb-c) gives a lot of results 02:50:04 devinus_ [~devinus@cpe-66-68-82-202.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:42 now SLIME's M-. is your best friend 02:51:32 The ones I poked at seem deep in the internals. 02:55:04 Xach: /connect 02:55:33 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:57:08 gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:31 timchen119 [tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 02:57:31 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 02:58:06 Brucio-47 [~Brucio-47@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:58:10 LiamH: You could use WARN perhaps? 02:58:16 -!- Brucio-47 is now known as BeXach 02:58:27 hefner: thanks 02:59:03 -!- BeXach [~Brucio-47@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:59:11 pjb: too strong, it's an efficiency note I'm looking for, e.g. ; note: unable to ; optimize ; due to type uncertainty: .. .etc. 03:00:31 LiamH: sb-ext:compiler-note. 03:00:46 JohnnyL_ [excellent_@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:56 -!- JohnnyL_ [excellent_@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 03:01:35 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:01:48 pkhuong_: Thanks, apparently that's recent? My crufty old 1.0.18 doesn't have it. 03:01:51 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 03:03:50 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@rrcs-184-74-128-29.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:03:56 Portably, you could always write on the *trace-output*, I guess. 03:08:56 schell [~schellsci@c-76-103-111-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:25 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:11:21 -!- DrunkenMaster is now known as PuffTheMagic 03:12:00 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:12:20 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 03:12:56 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:13:23 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-56-208.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:31 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:15:42 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:16:15 felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-225-69.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:02 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:21:55 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-15-45.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:22:27 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 03:25:53 metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #lisp 03:26:14 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:27 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f72225b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:12 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:32 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f726087.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:28:45 are any gotchas while loading foreign libs in cffi on osx? 03:28:47 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-27.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:28:50 are there* 03:29:45 i can't seem to get through the tutorial libcurl defintition in http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#Tutorial_002dLoading 03:30:39 xb 03:33:03 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:33:32 /quit 03:33:34 -!- rTypo [~rTypo@pc54.clicknet.iasi.rdsnet.ro] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 03:34:42 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:35:50 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:32 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-169-185.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:05 does anyone have a recommendation for a lisp webserver? 03:40:14 minion: hunchentoot 03:40:15 hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a robust and easy to use HTTP server. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 03:40:39 minion: hunchentoot 03:40:39 hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a robust and easy to use HTTP server. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 03:40:43 cool 03:42:18 schell: it might help to be more specific as to what the problem is, but it's probably either or both of the following: 1) libcurl isn't in a path where it will be found by default, or 2) it doesn't match the architecture of your SBCL instance 03:43:20 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zvlmwlyduztkzlsq] has joined #lisp 03:43:25 heh, plus they aren't named .so on OS X 03:43:29 hefner: thanks - i think it was the path, i got it working with libcurl by using libcurl.dylib, now i just have to figure out why it wouldn't work with librtaudio.a or librtaudio.so 03:43:59 maybe cffi doesn't like .a? 03:44:06 -!- devinus_ [~devinus@cpe-66-68-82-202.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:45:09 .so is suffix used on ELF-based unices, OSX is Mach-o 03:45:21 .a isn't dynamically loadable unless you are into crazy shit 03:45:40 ah - that explains it then 03:46:20 (well, not necessarily crazy shit, but basically .a is an archive containing object files, aka static library, and requires full linker as it can't be loaded with the dynamic one) 03:47:09 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zvlmwlyduztkzlsq] has left #lisp 03:47:32 schell: if you're trying to do audio output, you could using my Mixalot library (the git version now supports OS X) first 03:48:01 it's even available through Quicklisp, I think. 03:48:02 clhs setq 03:48:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm 03:49:06 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:49:24 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-csijwijajsnrianh] has joined #lisp 03:49:26 will that give me a callback to push samples to my audio hardware? 03:50:28 schell: you can always use CCL's support for Objective-C and use OSX's official libraries 03:51:33 part of me wants to learn how to write bindings and the other part wants to fool around with audio, so this kinda got two birds with one stone, but i'm definitely looking into both of those options 03:52:44 p/away zzz 03:53:12 schell: Yes, more or less. Define a class for your audio source, one method that generates samples and outputs them to a buffer, and add the audio source to the mixer. 03:53:17 Yamazaki1kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 03:53:36 awesome 03:53:40 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Read error: Connection refused] 03:53:53 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:54:23 what's underneath mixalot? is it libmpg that interfaces with the hardware? 03:54:58 schell: on Linux it uses ALSA directly, elsewhere it uses libao 03:55:35 ah, i haven't used that one (haven't used libmpg either, but that was the first thing i read on vintage-digital.com) 03:55:58 is that your site? 03:56:40 yeah. I guess you mean libmpg123, the library it uses for reading mp3s 03:57:20 (don't worry if you don't have that library, it's broken into separate pieces and doesn't load that by default) 03:57:21 i like your website, btw - it is as it says 03:58:02 thanks. 03:58:03 the simplest thing that could possibly work 04:01:11 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-78-43.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:01:47 Oh sweet, I finally got a 32-bit version of ECL to build on OS X. Turns out there's no problem, I just wasn't passing the right stuff to the configure script. 04:02:36 -!- kmurph79 [~kmurph79@66-215-55-253.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: kmurph79] 04:02:52 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:12 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Quit: homework and sleep] 04:03:40 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:55 leifw [~user@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:51 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13:18 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:13:23 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:13:24 -!- tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:3474:22be:9ca6:551f] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14:30 -!- Saturnation [~dsouth@pool-64-222-89-232.burl.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:15:33 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:16:02 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:16:34 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:19:23 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-225-69.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:20:08 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:20:45 -!- makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has left #lisp 04:26:17 SegFault1X [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:26 I'd appreciate any comments any of you might have http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=275 04:28:51 -!- az [~az@p5796CCEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:30:50 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-56-208.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 04:33:09 felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-225-69.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:13 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:33:38 <_3b> making up expansions for CAR and CDR (at least without explicitly saying that is what is happening) seems like a bad thing to do 04:35:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-csijwijajsnrianh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:35:43 It seems like it but I'd rather make something up than say "CONTENTS OF ACCUMULATOR PART OF REGISTER" and go into that whole explanation. 04:36:09 xan_ [~xan@173-13-121-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:27 <_3b> yeah, i'm just saying you should note that that is what is happening 04:37:21 <_3b> or use FIRST and REST or something 04:37:24 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:38:00 I precisely did NOT want to use first and rest 04:38:04 if one wanted to play with sources of CAR and CDR names, one might as well, mention the CPR and CTR macros 04:38:12 Because those are list functions, not cons cell functions 04:38:33 <_3b> ah, good point 04:38:34 az [~az@p4FE4E9AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:06 I just wanted a sneaky way to use "car" and "cdr", since most people complain they're archaic anyway 04:39:12 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 04:39:15 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:39:38 <_3b> i'd still at least add a footnote that they are derived differently in lisp 04:40:49 <_3b> does that first list example have extra parens around the x y z sublist? 04:41:01 claim they're derived from the WASD movement keys of first-person shooters, where the A gives you the left cell, D the right cell 04:41:16 LOLO 04:41:17 *LOL 04:41:17 <_3b> ha, never mind, i think i see the structure correctly now 04:41:49 hefner: hahahahaha 04:42:06 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-225-69.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:43:03 bwaaaa - i can't seem to compile a dylib that will load in cffi 04:43:04 kmurph79 [~kmurph79@66-215-55-253.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:44:09 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:44:17 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:17 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:44:17 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:44:39 schell: check architecture 04:45:01 Quadrescence: btw, it's you who bought symbolics.com? 04:45:21 maybe it's when i create the initial object files? -fPIC? 04:45:36 p_l|home: l1 04:45:38 Good morning everyone! 04:45:52 ahhh 04:45:54 p_l|home: the real symbolics.com was like 100k I thought 04:45:54 I see 04:45:57 beach: morning 04:46:00 USD 04:46:27 *p_l|home* would totally buy it if he had the money. Along with the trademarks and what's left of Symbolics 04:46:48 ... it actually is saner than it sounds 04:46:53 I would too probably 04:47:13 cause Symbolics is still a registered USA company, afaik 04:47:40 speaking of which, is the source code to the snap4 VLM published somewhere? 04:47:43 p_l|home: if you wanted to start a company with me, consider the prices reduced by 50% since I'd pitch in 1/2 of the amount needed 04:48:01 hefner: no, Symbolics however seems to be porting VLM2 to x86-64, just for OSX 04:48:04 (and where did the snap4 author get the OG source code to base it on?) 04:48:15 hefner: he didn't 04:48:20 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-206-27-157.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:48:40 snap4 is VLM2 binary that got translated into ANSI C, then patched to run on linux 04:48:50 it leads to code that makes disassemblers cry 04:49:07 yikes 04:49:23 the *BINARY* got translated? 04:49:30 Quadrescence: yep 04:49:41 it's not as rare as it sounds 04:49:59 The yikes is attributed to the ugliness that ensued 04:50:13 on VMS, it took IA-64 transition before some common utilities actually got recompiled instead of being binary-translated VAX images 04:50:19 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-80-191.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:50:42 or rather, said utilities got compiled to Alpha/IA-64 after they dropped VAX in newer releases 04:50:45 p_l|home: you're certain? the README file to snap4 really makes it sound like he had the source code. 04:51:00 but due to how VLM/VLM2 was written... it leads to certain ugliness 04:51:26 hefner: it's described on author's homepage that he used a self-written CL program to read VLM2 binary and generate C code 04:51:39 since he actually dealt professionally with such stuff 04:52:17 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:52:59 number four is there because it was 4th release - he did some patching of the C code to make a working binary, but he can't distribute the sources generated by his program because it's a copyright violation (technically, snap4 is on *very* thin ice)( 04:53:24 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:54:08 http://lispm.dyndns.org/news?ID=NEWS-2010-01-30-1 <--- here a screenshot of VLM2 for OSX/x86-64 04:54:32 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:45 though I suspect it's a near-complete rewrite, as VLM's "core" is completely unportable 04:56:25 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:57:13 -!- leifw [~user@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:58:07 (it was possibly the meanest, leanest alpha binary in production code) 04:59:26 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 04:59:34 damn, my back will make me insane 04:59:36 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Client Quit] 04:59:42 more than I am already, that is 05:00:36 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 05:01:27 dys`` [~andreas@krlh-5f72c1b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:29 -!- dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f72225b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:05:10 quantum [~nurlan@109.127.27.188] has joined #lisp 05:06:05 Hi everyone, how do I compile my source code written in Lisp? 05:06:41 clhs compile 05:06:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm 05:07:34 basically, most implementation currently in use will automatically compile everything, with COMPILE-FILE you can create "precompiled" files, and there are implementation-dependant mechanisms for making a complete executable 05:09:16 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:09:58 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-sspncxofkfsrdrdu] has joined #lisp 05:09:59 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-sspncxofkfsrdrdu] has quit [Changing host] 05:09:59 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:10:17 quantum: Or perhaps you meant "how can I create a stand-alone executable file" which is unrelated to compilation? 05:10:49 I have MIT Scheme, by that can I interprete my source code? 05:11:30 p_l|home: Shame I can't find that blog post. The README paints a picture of him having full C source to the OG 'genera' app plus the lisp code used internally to generate the Ivory emulator core, hacking it "to emit C code instead of assembler" (his words). This seems more plausible too, and explains why he didn't release the source. 05:11:42 quantum: This channel is more about Common Lisp than about Scheme. You may check in #scheme. 05:11:54 (more plausible except it makes me wonder where he got that code from :) 05:12:08 hefner: ah, right 05:12:27 beach, yep, I know I just want to know that is MIT scheme can be used for Lisp 05:12:34 I mixed the stuff he did for work and that part 05:13:08 quantum: As far as I know, MIT Scheme is an implementation of Scheme, and not of Common Lisp. 05:13:36 hefner: I suspect he might have acquired the code through various personal contacts (or possibly some maintenance contracts) 05:13:39 beach, ...and for Lips which program I should use? 05:13:54 minion: Tell quantum about SBCL. 05:13:56 quantum: look at SBCL: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/SBCL 05:14:18 beach, Thanks! 05:14:25 No problem. 05:14:31 quantum: what OS? If OSX, PPC linux or Win32/64, go with Clozure Common Lisp, on Linux x86/x86-64, use SBCL 05:14:51 minion: tell quantum about quicklisp 05:14:51 quantum: please look at quicklisp: Quicklisp aims to make it easy to get started with a rich set of community-developed Common Lisp libraries. http://www.cliki.net/quicklisp 05:15:06 ^ this will help with getting any libraries and setting up SLIME 05:15:09 p_l|home: okay, I'll try it, thanks 05:15:31 p_l|home: I use both of Linux and Win32 05:15:56 quantum: On Windows, you might want to use a commercial implementation, such as LispWorks. 05:16:22 true. Thanks to various compatibility layers, you shouldn't encounter much issues between various implementations though 05:16:33 beach, commercial? :( 05:16:56 quantum: both Allegro CL and LispWorks have "personal" licenses 05:17:25 and unlike CCL or SBCL, they don't have to depend on goodwill and time of developers, which is quite absent on win32 :) 05:17:44 p_l|home: free of charge? or? 05:17:49 quantum: Why are you so surprized? 05:18:17 beach: What about? 05:18:28 quantum: "personal" versions are free of charge but with limited functionality/license 05:18:34 quantum: You wrote " beach, commercial? :(" 05:19:05 beach: he might have feared need to pay to be able to play at all 05:19:28 beach: I think commercial means I have to pay to use it 05:19:30 *p_l|home* wishes sometimes that MS had LW-quality CL implementation, then he could get it for $100 05:19:40 quantum: not for learning 05:19:55 quantum: You seemed happy to pay for Windows. Why should you not pay for your Lisp system? 05:20:20 the personal editions are good enough for learning. 05:20:20 beach, No, it's OEM :) 05:20:33 p_l|home: great 05:20:35 beach: there's a big price difference between Windows and LW :) 05:20:50 don't remember ACL's pricing (mainly because of how fluid it is) 05:21:46 p_l|home: Sorry, LW? 05:21:58 quantum: shorthand for LispWorks 05:22:06 p_l|home: Okay 05:22:11 which is a name of both the company and their lisp implementation 05:22:24 p_l|home: aha 05:23:26 p_l|home: I use 56K, how much time should take to download LW? 05:24:02 hooo~.. 05:24:29 p_l|home: sorry? 05:24:38 frankly speaking, no idea, haven't actually downloaded win32 version of LW or ACL (only got the linux ones) 05:24:50 and the "hooo~" was about the 56k :) 05:24:56 -!- dys`` is now known as dys 05:25:01 p_l|home: :D 05:25:37 p_l|home: I use because ADSL so expensive plus modem price :( 05:28:03 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:31:00 -!- chewbran1a is now known as chewbranca 05:31:15 heh. well, technically, I'm on dial-up as well, but rather faster one 05:33:08 p_l|home: Dial-up makes my crazy :) 05:34:03 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 05:35:05 heh. Mine at least goes to ~7MBit, though with small data allowance 05:35:47 p_l|home: on dial-up? 05:36:33 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hdjxfopuewgouyuq] has joined #lisp 05:43:49 well, i'm about to give up on rtaudio.dylib 05:44:04 crink [~crink@unaffiliated/crink] has joined #lisp 05:44:10 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:44:11 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4121544/how-do-i-create-a-dynamically-loadable-version-of-rtaudio-in-osx 05:47:02 hey - what's minion? is that a bot? 05:48:21 minion: are you a bot? 05:48:22 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 05:48:36 whaaaaaaat 05:48:53 check the amount of time that response took :P 05:48:58 :) 05:49:00 minion: what is your version? 05:49:00 maybe you need to ask my master, chandler - he knows a lot 05:49:01 and you'll have your answer :P 05:50:05 minion: hutchentoot 05:50:05 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``hutchentoot''. 05:50:09 minion: How you can write so quickly? 05:50:09 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 05:50:54 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:51:28 quantum: HSDPA is technically dialup 05:51:55 -!- crink [~crink@unaffiliated/crink] has left #lisp 05:52:17 -!- SegFault1X [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:52:17 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:52:22 p_l|home: I haven't heard about it 05:54:14 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:56:04 MorganB` [~user@n128-227-55-33.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #lisp 05:56:54 quantum: cellular technology 05:57:15 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.105.166] has joined #lisp 05:57:27 part of 3.5G, on the GSM side 05:58:07 hopefully we will soon get LTE and WiMax uber alles, and phones that can do both 05:58:19 so we can finally end the standards wars 05:59:01 MorganB`` [~user@ip70-171-0-238.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:01 -!- MorganB [~user@ip70-171-0-238.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:59:09 Adamant: so far LTE seems to be winning, WiMax with IPv6 mobility being other, less favored, option 05:59:21 also neither has performance to fit 4G requirement 06:00:08 on a sideline, the much mocked Symbian has the core stack, especially the networking support, much better than the "baby" of most online reviewers, aka Android 06:00:25 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-imfnujxwfjspdloq] has joined #lisp 06:01:06 not surprised, but Symbian sucks 06:01:30 compared to iOS, Android, or webOS, it's stuck in the past 06:01:36 (for example, my old ~2.5yo nokia has full IPv6 support, as well as enterprise WPA and proxying. The base OS is good as well, but UIs on some modern Nokias suck and the devkit isn't well accessible) 06:01:47 even WinMo 7 maybe have finally fixed the MS offering 06:02:28 I'm hoping HP does something with webOS and makes it easier to develop on 06:02:38 but the app gap is pretty huge at this point 06:02:49 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-doybcvfampvqjmbu] has joined #lisp 06:02:49 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-doybcvfampvqjmbu] has quit [Changing host] 06:02:49 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:02:51 -!- MorganB` [~user@n128-227-55-33.xlate.ufl.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:02:54 both iOS and Android have a huge amount 06:03:10 p_l|home: Please tell me about it more, where are you using it, and for what? 06:03:17 IMO, the original iPhone didn't do anything WinMo phones of the time weren't already doing 06:03:30 just in a much nicer manner 06:03:41 after the flood of apps, though.. 06:04:04 Adamant: more like the original iPhone didn't do anything than a fresh S60 phone didn't except with iTunes and touchscreen 06:04:10 I do hope HTML5 kills most of the current app market. 06:04:14 yeah 06:04:27 Adamant: I prefer apps that can work properly in disconnected mode 06:05:02 talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has joined #lisp 06:05:36 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:06:21 p_l|home: HTML5 apps should be able to do that 06:06:27 they're putting in support for it 06:06:47 the distinction between online and offline HTML5 apps will be pretty blurred 06:07:04 and the only thing it won't be appropriate for is really hard processing 06:07:27 even light/mid-3D will be viable via WebGL 06:07:28 Adamant: somehow. I'd still prefer proper applications, especially since HTML5 doesn't really impress me that much when it comes to programming model. Not to mention lack of integration etc. 06:07:39 yeah 06:07:41 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-80-191.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:08:19 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:08:33 that doesn't mean I'm not going to use the offline capability (in fact, my startup is going to abuse it thoroughly) but I'm not "sold" one it becoming the silver bullet everyone seems to believe 06:10:01 quantum: in UK, using it as my home access to internet, paid £40 for 3 months of pre-paid net access 06:10:09 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 06:10:09 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-90-15.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:13:23 p_l|home: okay 06:14:05 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:15:24 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:18:24 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@239-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:21:23 -!- quantum [~nurlan@109.127.27.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:27:52 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.9] has joined #lisp 06:27:55 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:28:37 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:29:29 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0225.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 06:29:45 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:02 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:34:55 p_l|home: it will take disciplined use and testing and probably more extensions before it becomes the standard solution 06:35:09 and apps being a walled garden make them more profitable 06:41:35 -!- jdz [~jdz@87.4.39.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:46:12 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:46:19 well, I am selling a platform, not an app 06:47:02 and playing with pricing a'la IBM for mainframes, maybe, for the bigger customers :D 06:47:29 _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:50:18 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.26.153] has joined #lisp 06:50:46 a very interesting thing I learnt from a guy that runs a microISV and who learnt it while working in Japan is that one should always have an "enterprise" option, with outrageous price on it, until your product is big enough for you to divert resources to that :) 06:51:16 -!- xan_ [~xan@173-13-121-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:52:13 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:52:58 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:53:03 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:56:02 -!- schell [~schellsci@c-76-103-111-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: schell] 06:56:22 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 06:58:43 yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:58 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:59:26 is the "association list" mentioned in Winston the same as the "property list" in PCL? 07:00:27 what do you mean "the same", these are different things 07:00:33 yates: No, an association list contains pairs (conses) with a key and a value, whereas a property list has alternating keys and values. 07:00:44 "the same" meaning "not different" 07:00:58 but they are, so not the same 07:01:29 xan_ [~xan@173-13-121-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:04 beach: are you saying an association list is a list of lists, where each inner list is a key and a value? 07:02:08 yates: The glossary of the CLHS is a very good place to find out about things like that. 07:02:39 ,clhs association list 07:02:59 ((:a 10) (:b 20)) vs (:a 10 :b 20) 07:03:25 stassats`: right - i think that's waht i said 07:03:29 stassats`: Er, no that would be ((:a . 10) (:b . 20)) 07:03:52 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.56] has joined #lisp 07:03:53 (if you want 10 and 20 to be the values) 07:04:25 doesn't matter 07:04:42 yates: I don't think the glossary is indexed by specbot. You'll have to go find it yourself. 07:04:54 clhs alist 07:04:54 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for alist. 07:04:57 pity 07:05:21 yates: and what did you say? 07:05:30 beach, stassats`: winston states "association lists can be lists of dotter pairs. to avoid discussing dotted pairs, we limit ourselves to association lists that are lists of lists". 07:05:36 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:05:46 s/dotter/dotted/ 07:06:11 (:a . 10) is a dotter pair, right? 07:06:15 dotted 07:06:15 yes 07:06:25 yates: They are certainly free to limit themselves that way. 07:06:52 the difference between (:a 10) (:a . 10) is that the former uses one cons more, but it doesn't matter much 07:07:03 you'll just need to use cadr instead of cdr 07:07:12 but it has nothing to do with property lists 07:07:23 stassats`: to answer your question: "beach: are you saying an association list is a list 07:07:41 daniel [~daniel@p5B32755B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:41 of lists, where each inner list is a key and a value?" 07:07:42 stassats`: ok, right - got it now - two different concepts and constructs 07:07:53 well, actually the concept seems similar, but constructed differently 07:08:19 both provide a key to index a value, right? 07:08:26 hmm... we used to have a cons cell visualizer here 07:08:26 and they have different properties 07:08:34 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5B327FA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:09:12 yates: yes, but as stassats` said, they have different properties 07:09:25 ok 07:09:40 -!- osoleve [~andy@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:09:48 plists also have certain functionality that alists don't have (symbol property lists, for one) 07:10:10 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.24.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:10:40 symbol properties are orthogonal 07:10:53 they just happen to be stored in plists 07:11:14 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:11:28 stassats`: true, it just happens that the standard specified plists for that, iirc 07:11:45 (personally I'd prefer alists for that) 07:11:56 p_l|home: what is an example of a "symbol property list"? 07:12:10 personally, i don't use property lists 07:12:10 -!- MorganB`` [~user@ip70-171-0-238.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:13:05 longshot [~longshot@207.204.225.81] has joined #lisp 07:13:58 ok, nothing like a little lisp to cure insomnia... going back to bed - thanks for the help 07:14:13 (it's EST here..) 07:14:15 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@149.142.112.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:14:52 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 07:14:54 yates: it's basically a plist attached to a symbol 07:15:09 it's independent from both symbol-value and symbol-function slots 07:15:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-134.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:16:00 the thing is, the data inside is often used for internal stuff, for example at least one implementation uses it to store documentation strings (though SBCL has separate slot in symbol structure) 07:17:10 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 07:17:31 osoleve [~andy@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:41 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.6.44] has joined #lisp 07:19:33 -!- percii [~percii@92.98.127.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:20:11 p_l|home: separate slot for what? 07:20:56 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:20:56 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:20:56 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:21:21 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:21:24 stassats`: documentation. Or so I was told once, after asking about symbol-plist usage in SBCL 07:21:28 -!- longshot [~longshot@207.204.225.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:21:28 -!- longshot_ is now known as longshot 07:22:22 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:23:18 *p_l|home* will need to read up on that, since he is starting to get serious about making his own implementation... 07:24:09 sbcl has an additional slot inside function objects for documentation 07:24:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@173-13-121-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:26:23 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hdjxfopuewgouyuq] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:34:41 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.6.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:34:56 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:59 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 07:37:18 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-54.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:37:40 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 07:40:00 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ghbdvzybupbppoew] has joined #lisp 07:40:12 moah [~gnu@dslb-084-061-241-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:07 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-101-69.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:17 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:45:27 good morning 07:49:01 fe[nl]ix: hi 07:50:24 should package CLOS exist? 07:50:45 what do you mean? 07:51:05 s0ng0ku [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:06 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 07:51:22 according the cltl2. 07:51:34 the no 07:51:37 then 07:51:37 the last commit breaks iolib for ccl. 07:51:39 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:51:49 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:49 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:52:05 goddamn you, bots! 08:00:08 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:00:27 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:36 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:00:56 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:03 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:06 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 08:04:20 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-imfnujxwfjspdloq] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:06:22 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rlzyvbsjzdbupzve] has joined #lisp 08:10:04 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 08:11:39 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 08:13:07 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-41.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:14:35 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:23 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 08:17:56 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 08:18:14 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 08:19:18 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:19:44 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:50 yakov__ [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 08:24:01 hello mvilleneuve 08:24:26 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.105.166] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:25:14 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has left #lisp 08:31:44 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:33:24 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 08:34:45 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.37.207] has joined #lisp 08:35:38 -!- michael` [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37:55 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:38:45 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:14 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:52 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:41:02 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:42:37 -!- xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:45:04 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:46:56 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:47:11 I cannot make #+clisp rawsock work. I get EINVAL errors whenever I call rawsock:bind or rawsock:sendto. Anybody has a working example of an UDP client? 08:49:14 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:51:09 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:53:21 hi just a newbie qn, but I understand that the arg after &rest will capture all the rest of the arguments into the one list 08:53:47 -!- drforr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:53:48 so I am trying to write a "while" function that calls loop internally - to then convert this into a macro 08:53:53 I tried doing 08:53:55 (defun while ( p &rest args ) 08:53:55 (loop while (p) do args )) 08:54:03 but the compiler doesn't like that 08:54:31 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:33 I know in macros I can use ,@body to splice the list of arguments into my code 08:54:45 was wondering how I can do the same in a normal function? 08:55:36 drforr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:55 you can't 08:56:02 I have to somehow unwrap the args yeah? 08:56:08 a macro changes the parse tree before the compiler sees it 08:56:29 you'll have to write a macro - not a defun 08:56:32 coz my expressions for args will come in as (form1 form2 .... formN) 08:56:37 flip214: ok 08:56:41 quantum [~nurlan@109.127.27.114] has joined #lisp 08:56:41 will try that directly then 08:56:50 let me give that a shot and see how I go :) 08:56:58 and in the macro you would eg use (progn ,@body) 08:57:00 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:58:42 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e58.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:53 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:00:02 flip214: do I need to say progn? 09:00:19 I was thinking more like 09:00:32 -!- whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-148-170.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:00:36 if body has more than a single s-expr in it, you'll have to tell the compiler that all these belong together 09:01:08 (loop while (,p) 'do ,@body ) 09:01:33 why do you quote do? 09:01:47 actually I don't need to 09:01:56 this way body could include arbitrary loop statements - and in fact has to, for each other clause 09:02:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-134.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:21 whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-148-170.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:02:24 which way? 09:02:26 if body is '((print 1) (print 2)) you'll get a syntax error, because (print 2) is not a loop keyword 09:02:34 but one is expected 09:02:50 you'd have to write '((print 1) do (print 2) do (print 3)) etc 09:02:52 but if you see what I did.. is that wrong? 09:02:57 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:15 I mean wouldn't ,@body just place in all the expressions one after the other just as they were supplied? 09:03:15 so I'd go with the "do (progn ,@body)" 09:03:45 yes, they would, then the loop macro gets expanded, and finds arbitrary expressions instead of loop keywords 09:03:57 the macroexpand-1 for your macro 09:04:01 then you'll see what I mean 09:05:21 (loop while (<= x b) do 09:05:22 (write x) (terpri) 09:05:22 (setq x (* x 2)) 09:05:22 ) 09:05:38 thats an example I was looking at for the loop statement's structure 09:05:47 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-41.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:06:30 so I thought if someone called my macro as (while (< n 0) (setf blah (n)) (setf bahh (+ n 1))) 09:06:32 edlinde: you can very well use ` and , and ,@ in a function. 09:06:39 -!- Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:06:45 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:06:47 This mechanism is entirely orthogonal to macros. 09:06:50 pjb: I didn't know I could use ,@ ina function 09:07:02 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 09:07:11 Now, what should your while function do exactly? 09:07:15 but so now the thing is if I wanted to use the loop construct instead of using a do... is that wrong? 09:07:33 Well, I would advice to avoid loop in macroexpanded code. 09:07:38 pjb: its basically like the example above 09:07:53 loop has some effects that are implementation dependent and that you'd rather control when writing a macro. 09:08:03 so while a condition is true... execute all the rest of the expressions passed in 09:08:08 But for now, let's say you will use loop, it's not important. 09:08:22 edlinde: do you really want this function do execute the loop? 09:08:27 oh then I want to just know what I should chose 09:08:31 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 09:08:48 ok lemme come up with a paste real quick as to the requirements ok 09:08:53 gimme 2 mins 09:09:07 edlinde: well, you have two choices: either your macro use the function at macro-expasion time to compute the macroexpansion, or it uses it at run-time to execute whatever needs to be executed. 09:09:12 edlinde: what would you choose? 09:09:24 jdz_ [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 09:10:01 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-41.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 09:10:48 Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has joined #lisp 09:11:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116372 09:11:06 thats the requirement 09:11:25 I would think run-time would be better yeah? 09:11:33 pjb: or what do you suggest? 09:11:49 You can do either: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116373 09:12:32 for that question I wanted to use the loop construct as I found it more useful than DO... I can still look into DO 09:13:51 Or tagbody. 09:13:58 pjb: have you given two ways there? 09:14:08 with gen-while and while being the first way? 09:14:24 pjb: in the first example I'd rather use do (progn ,@body) - fearing that someone gives "always nil" or other loop-keywords (or non-keywords) 09:15:02 ah you mean if someone passed in loop keywords it would meddle with the existing loop? 09:15:04 Or is that not a problem in practics? 09:15:10 yes, I think so 09:15:11 But in the case of clisp, this loop (replace :for by :while, of course), generates the same code as a hand-crafted tagbody. 09:15:19 edlinde: yes. 09:15:45 pjb: I haven't seen the loop construct used with :for and :do 09:15:48 whats that? 09:16:27 -!- yakov__ [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:16:38 and in your defmacro while.. why do you call gen-while? can we not just place the whole body of genwhile into the while macros? 09:16:47 just wondering why you do it that way 09:17:03 The thunk solution has the advantage that it provides a function equivalent to the macro, so that for example, you could use it in mapcar: (let ((p 42) (n -42)) (mapcar (function while*) (list (lambda () (plusp p)) (lambda () (minusp n))) (list (lambda () (incf p)) (lambda () (decf p))))) 09:17:33 ... for people who complain they can't use a macro in mapcar, here they've got a function. 09:17:36 ok but its quite complicated :) 09:17:37 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:52 I think I understand what you mean though 09:18:01 The inconvenient is that compilers don't necessarily optimize out thunks, and you may end with two real funcalls at each loop iteration. 09:18:17 ok 09:18:21 edlinde: it's :while :do that you have to use, I wrongly used ;for there. 09:18:33 so for the purposes of this assignment I do like the first version you got 09:18:39 Of course, in general macros generate the code themselves. 09:18:53 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:19:01 I don't see a ;for 09:19:06 I just see :for 09:19:15 But my point here is thatyou can instead call external functions to generate the code, and this might be useful when you have to generate a lot of complex code. The macro can call several functions to analyse the parameters and to generate various parts. 09:19:17 is that a standard loop construct? 09:19:20 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 09:19:25 ;for would be a typo. 09:19:25 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:35 yeah I know 09:19:48 Do you mean to use keywords? 09:20:04 is (loop :for cond :do body) a valid loop construct? 09:20:08 yes. loop uses string-equalp to compare them, so any symbol will do. 09:20:20 No. It should be (loop :while cond :do body) 09:20:28 as I have only seen something like 09:20:33 (loop while (<= x b) do 09:20:33 (write x) (terpri) 09:20:34 (setq x (* x 2))) 09:21:03 Now, since you are defining a while macro, you might want to put put it in a package and export it. 09:21:03 ah ok I see what you mean 09:21:21 WHat happens if you write (loop while ...) and then (use-package :your-while-package)? A name clash. 09:21:40 That's why I always use keywords in loops, at least when I don't type them for the REPL. 09:22:17 how does that stop name clashes? 09:22:29 is it because keywords use a different namespace? 09:23:08 Yes. keywords are in the KEYWORD package, and reading them as :while doesn't intern them in the current package. 09:23:15 (unless the current package is KEYWORD of course). 09:23:22 pjb: also what about flip214 's comment about the loop construct getting messed up with crazy things passed in that would clash with the outer loop's construct with some loop eywords? 09:23:26 *keywords 09:23:51 Yes, that's possible. You would have to write (progn ,@body) to prevent that. 09:24:16 so you saying if I used 09:24:32 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:24:44 the first version, I change :for to :while and ,@body to (progn ,@body) ? 09:25:08 Yes. 09:25:10 pjb: the "while" macro wouldn't clash with "loop while ...", because the loop macro looks (AFAIR) at the print-representation of the symbols given 09:25:16 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:25:23 -!- quantum [~nurlan@109.127.27.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:25:24 and it wouldn't get expanded as a macro, too 09:25:29 so you should be fine here ;-) 09:25:33 Yes. 09:25:45 so I don't even need to use keywords 09:26:00 keywords are to avoid problem when you (use-package :your-while-package) 09:26:03 I can then just revert to the normal loop construct as long as I do the progn ,@body 09:26:08 ok 09:26:12 will keep that in mind 09:26:18 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:18 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:26:19 edlinde: for this simple loop, it seems indeed that it will be ok. 09:26:25 okie 09:26:25 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 09:26:34 pjb: are you sure about the use-package constraint? 09:26:35 Mind that loop wraps it in a block named nil by default. 09:26:41 flip214: yes. 09:26:44 Try it! 09:26:50 ok 09:27:15 (loop while false do 'nothing) (defpackage "MY-LOOPS") (:export "WHILE")) (use-package :my-loops) 09:30:17 pjb: with a slight modification it works for me 09:30:26 Which modification>? 09:30:32 (loop while false do 'nothing) (defpackage "MY-LOOPS") (:export "WHILE")) (use-package :my-loops) 09:30:58 has the ) after (defpackage "my-loops" *)* too early: 09:30:59 (defpackage "MY-LOOPS" (:export "WHILE")) 09:30:59 (in-package :cl-user) (use-package :my-loops) 09:30:59 (loop while nil do 'nothing) 09:31:05 Right. 09:31:42 You must use-package after loop while to see the problem. To reset, (unintern 'while) (loop while nil) (use-package :my-loops) 09:32:21 *p_l|home* ponders hijacking SBCL's compiler in order to create his own CL implementation... figures using IR1 data should be enough 09:32:49 (defmacro while (condition &body body) 09:32:49 `(loop 09:32:50 :while ,condition 09:32:50 :do (progn ,@body))) 09:32:50 Ok, now I understand you. Of course, importing symbols that are already used is always a problem. *Therefore* you're using keywords, ok. 09:33:02 p_l|home: what variant would you like? 09:33:02 09:33:07 pjb: thats the final version I got... and it seems to work perfectly fine now 09:33:19 edlinde: yes. 09:33:22 atleast with the examples given in the assignment... fak, rev.. 09:33:33 pjb: can you think of any reason it might break? 09:33:46 pjb: also when does one use gensym in a macros? 09:34:04 My understanding is when you want something evaluated only once you make a gensym for it? 09:34:14 would I be right in assuming that? 09:34:19 p_l|home: I was wondering whether that was feasible, too (hijacking Python, that is) 09:35:44 hefner: was that you who were interested in bytecode-only implementation? 09:35:59 p_l|home: yeah, we discussed that a week or two ago 09:37:01 hefner: I've been considering actually taking it up, as soon as I clear some time 09:37:23 <_3b> i think there are sbcl forks on repo.or.cz that try to do that sort of thing 09:37:29 especially if I manage to hijack Python, so I could reuse a lot of SBCL 09:37:36 _3b: there's a LLVM one 09:37:40 which afaik uses IR1 09:37:47 <_3b> for llvm and old version of my flash stuff if i remember right... dunno how far either got though 09:38:00 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:18 pjb: thanks for the help! 09:38:31 Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:52 hefner: I have even done some searching regarding how to implement it 09:39:02 edlinde: check http://paste.lisp.org/display/116373#1 09:39:11 though I have to admit I looked from rather low-level, bottom up direction 09:39:34 (i.e. down to L1 cache layout) 09:39:47 for this feature, do or loop behave the same: they both define a nil block. But if you used tagbody, no nil block would be defined, so that you could exit early. 09:40:07 edlinde: this doesn't mean that loop is bad, just that you have to document that your while define a nil block so that return returns from the while. 09:40:10 <_3b> you can rename the LOOP block if you want to get rid of it 09:40:18 With a gensym, yes. 09:41:02 pjb: the prof had a similar construct with using BLOCK in his macro example 09:41:09 but I wasn't sure why he was doing it 09:41:26 would it help if we used a block in the macro? 09:42:05 vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-54.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 09:42:22 hefner: it's pretty much a given that despite being a bytecode-only I want to make it bloody fast :) 09:42:33 pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116373#2 09:42:50 pjb: just an example of the code he wrote... is that good or bad? :) 09:44:44 pjb: would wrapping our loop in a block help in anyway ? 09:45:00 its just that we haven't been taught the tagbody construct 09:46:31 though I wish Symbolics gave up VLM into open 09:47:18 I understand that there's actual work for getting it running on x86-64, but for heaven's sake, in civilized countries it's getting close to copyright expiry! 09:48:34 p_l|home: Oh? 75 years after the death of the author? 09:49:15 73 years to go! 09:49:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-201-226.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:49:55 beach: for software? usually 20 years means no lawyer would even take a case 09:50:12 p_l|home: That's not the same thing as the copyright expring. 09:50:17 *expiring 09:50:33 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rlzyvbsjzdbupzve] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:50:44 beach: also, 75 years after death of author is USA. I am not sure whether to consider USA a civilized country 09:51:18 apparently, US librarians would be willing to support my doubts 09:52:07 p_l|home: I'm not sure Python would be an ideal fit, depending on what assumptions are ingrained. Optimal code for a VM would look different given the extra cost of each instruction dispatch, and for instance you'd want tag manipulation moved into the instructions themselves instead of coded explicitly. 09:53:48 hefner: that's why I never considered Python to be the end of it - just a way to jump-start the whole thing, in the spirit of "first make it work, then make it work well, then make it work fast" 09:54:07 though I'll admit I've got a bone to pic with the GC and interpreter routine :> 09:54:42 I'd assume you wouldn't use those, or much of the runtime. 09:55:50 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 09:55:50 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 09:55:50 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 09:56:35 hefner: I simply wanted to first get it to the point of "ANSI+AMOP compatible" 09:56:55 where possible using SICL or SACLA or bits of SBCL 09:58:05 then make sure it includes the best compatibility where possible with some of the other stuff (so it wouldn't need closer-mop, for example, or bordeaux-threads other than for simple mapping, possibly even having them included in distro) 09:59:13 edlinde: this block gensym is required. There are actually two alternative of LOOP. One is the complex loop we've discussed, with keywords and so on. Another is the simple loop used here, which is just (loop (form) ...) and is an infinte loop. There's no way to get out of it other than using return-from to an outside block. 09:59:48 hefner: of course, proper swank interface included from start 09:59:57 H4ns```` [~user@pD4B9E534.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:57 p_l|home: I hope some of that would be optional. I wouldn't want the compiler or necessarily even full CLOS in a deployed, embedded use. 10:00:08 pjb: simple loop establishes an anonymous block 10:01:01 hefner: actually, it would give me a chance to explore something I considered for SBCL, namely modularized CL, where you can dump an image without various parts 10:01:05 pjb: so are you saying we should modify our macros to make room for this infinite loop being part of the main loop? 10:01:06 Right, so return should be usable. 10:01:31 including, at least, dumping without compiler and/or CLOS, but possibly with static CLOS as an option 10:01:38 edlinde: No, I was only explaining why this block around loop. 10:01:41 pjb: so what I got so far is fine? or there is something missing in terms of checks? 10:01:50 pjb: ah ok I get it... 10:02:00 I think it's right. You cannot do anything more without a more precise specification. 10:02:07 pjb: yeah in the prof's example he would use that unless clause to get out of it yeah 10:02:18 Yes. 10:02:18 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:19 pjb: yeah think so too 10:02:40 unless he is very specific about what this macros is suposed to do... like being used in mapcar.. like you showed in version 2 10:02:45 I want to leave it simple 10:02:46 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:50 thanks pjb 10:03:03 -!- H4ns``` [~user@p579F8B3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:03:08 p_l|home: good reason for you to work on this instead of me (aside from the obvious problem that I'd never finish it to a useful point) - I'd have to force myself to put in the extra effort toward making it a reasonably complete CL, versus a subset or another pet dialect of lisp. 10:03:44 hefner: I'd like something that could be reasonably used for desktop applications while keeping small footprint 10:04:16 right, same here. 10:04:18 yakov__ [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 10:04:26 -!- yakov__ [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:06:21 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:06:55 plus easy to port, no complex spooky build process, no potential licensing problems or assault by religious symbols at startup.. 10:07:39 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:08:29 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:08:45 lol 10:08:45 well, I plan on including an ANSI C version of the runtime, but believe me, a big chunk of the "core" would be assembly. VLM style. Hopefully not too hard to port (actually Dalvik has done something similar) 10:09:28 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu252.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:09:39 but build process would be simple (either use precompiled image or another lisp for the imagebuilding, while the core runtime would be simply compiled with GCC or MSVC) 10:10:20 -!- talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:11:51 (and yes, I'm going to be adamant about making it run with MSVC, windows is an important platform to me) 10:12:13 you will not be Adamant. not if I have anything to say about it. 10:12:24 I've been curious if there's much speed (on x86 at least) left to squeeze out of interpreters by writing them in assembly versus what you get out of gcc with threading and computed goto 10:12:53 hefner: I think the biggest gain for interpreters is stuffing them in cache 10:13:09 which is doable with C or Forth fairly easily 10:13:41 I did some experiments writing a handful of interpreters a couple months ago with different instruction formats and dispatch strategies, but stopped short of writing one in assembly 10:13:47 especially as L2 and even L1 cache sizes get ridiculously huge 10:14:09 hefner: I'm trying to fit into L1c the whole interpreter and GC 10:14:18 c? 10:14:26 oh, cache 10:14:26 Adamant: L1 code 10:14:32 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 10:14:34 as opposed to L1d = L1 data 10:14:37 ah 10:14:38 the GC in L1 cache seems excessive 10:14:43 alright 10:14:53 hefner: I settled on concurrent GC 10:15:08 (sniped from another VM) 10:15:20 Ah, interesting. I hadn't thought about that. 10:15:27 I don't think it will get much faster than that and still be an interpreter. 10:15:38 talk is cheap, show us the code! 10:16:45 Adamant: anyway, there would be an ANSI C implementation first, with just goto. Then I'll look into cleaving some of the code out - and I want to see possible use of VLM-style dispatch of certain operations 10:17:39 it's as much of a research project for me as anything else :) 10:18:27 you're sure there's anything left to gain when modern chips have a much bigger L1 cache than a circa-1992 Alpha and the whole interpreter fits in it? 10:19:05 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:19:06 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:19:12 heh, save that energy for an ARM-optimized VM :) 10:19:15 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:19:15 hefner: I worked quite recently with chips where 4kb cache was the only thing 10:19:26 and yes, it was ARM 10:19:32 (I *really* wanted to be doing those VM experiments on ARM, but I don't have one handy) 10:19:33 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:55 dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-222.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:19:58 *p_l|home* has ARM1176JZF-S on hand, fancy bugger. 10:20:39 p_l|home: you've forgotten a few consonants there 10:20:40 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:41 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C1EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:09 fe[nl]ix: no, that's the full name 10:22:54 the other ARM11 is ARM1136JZF, and it actually differs in specs (lacks an entire coprocessor etc.) 10:25:39 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 10:25:57 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:04 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.160] has joined #lisp 10:30:38 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:31:29 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.160] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:31:43 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qozmyhaqeirnsrrx] has joined #lisp 10:31:50 Is Paul Graham's "ANSI Common Lisp" a good book? 10:32:00 wonder if someone here read it and recommends reading it? 10:32:53 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.160] has joined #lisp 10:33:02 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 10:33:34 edlinde: I recommend reading it after you know ANSI Common Lisp. 10:34:05 Xach: didn't get your point. Sarcasm? :) 10:34:20 Are you saying this book is too advanced? or not good enough? 10:35:33 it's too dangerous for the weak mind 10:35:36 edlinde: I'm saying if you read it without knowing ANSI Common Lisp, you might get a pretty strange, incomplete impression of the language. 10:35:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:35:54 edlinde: If you read it after, you can take whatever value it has while ignoring the bizarre stuff. 10:36:18 ok so far I have read Gentle Intro and half of PCL say upto chap 9 or 10 10:36:38 ok so wondering what book to pick up next 10:36:51 Paradigms of AI Programming is a good book for learning CL. 10:36:54 I would like to understand data structures better 10:36:58 PAIP 10:37:02 ok 10:37:12 yeah I marked that down 10:37:26 what about On lisp - P graham? 10:37:31 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:38:24 edlinde: read that later. 10:38:26 People hold it in higher regard than ANSI Common Lisp, but I'd suggest the same thing. Read it later rather than earlier. 10:38:42 as in `once you think you know CL pretty well and want to improve further' 10:38:43 I saw that it had a few chapters dedicated to Macros 10:38:50 few chapters? 10:38:54 yep 10:38:58 the whole book is only macros 10:39:07 ok well... 10:39:28 Xach: so you think I should read PAIP next yeah? 10:39:42 read that after a few projects, after you hacked some macros together because you felt you needed to 10:39:51 than it'll make more sense 10:40:01 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.160] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:40:02 I mean I would like to try out the stuff as I go along... there are still things I need to implement for my thesis (later on) that I would like to do in lisp 10:40:03 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu252.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:40:29 edlinde: PAIP is a good book. 10:40:43 I am kinda working through some assignments at the moment which deal with writing macros 10:41:00 though I believe we were given very limited information... the chapters in PCL were a big help 10:41:20 Xach: ok PAIP is next... do you suggest any others? 10:41:29 edlinde: Read code. Lots of code. 10:41:32 What do you guys think about Land of Lisp? 10:41:59 I liked the video and would like to read the book. 10:42:02 still waiting for my copy to ship. the amazons run slowly lately 10:42:03 Xach: well thats my aim.. I just want to see as many implementations as I can.. so I look for this in books 10:42:19 are there other resources I should look at for code samples? 10:42:28 edlinde: yes. code! 10:42:28 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has left #lisp 10:42:43 edlinde: download libraries. read them 10:42:48 edlinde: lots and lots of useful stuff has its code fully available to review and study. 10:42:49 I mean there are some things I am not interested in - like writing a web application in Lisp or something 10:42:52 especially every weitz-ware there is 10:43:05 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.118] has joined #lisp 10:43:12 but nothing beats writing code 10:43:14 edlinde: Even things that don't interest you might teach you syntax, style, and convention. 10:43:21 Xach: do you know where I can download the code from? Is there a site where you have most lisp packages uploaded to? 10:43:26 like a Perl CPAN 10:43:31 quicklisp 10:43:36 minion: quicklisp? 10:43:36 Xach: yeah true 10:43:37 quicklisp: Quicklisp aims to make it easy to get started with a rich set of community-developed Common Lisp libraries. http://www.cliki.net/quicklisp 10:44:10 edlinde: why yes, i do! www.quicklisp.org makes it easy to install stuff, and you can browse sources with M-. afterwards. 10:44:18 Xach: is quicklisp your site? Zach Beane? 10:44:21 :) 10:44:31 (smallp world) => T 10:44:33 Shh, that's my superhero alter-ego. 10:44:38 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 10:45:06 :) 10:45:08 heh 10:45:17 hey I just got "Succesful lisp" 10:45:22 is that a good book you say? 10:45:28 *Xach* has not read it 10:45:35 it's quite good, but I prefer PCL 10:46:17 Xach: quicklisp is a tool?? 10:46:41 A magical device to reduce frustration. 10:46:52 edlinde: yes. 10:47:07 Xach: I use Clozure on my Mac.. or CCL I think its called 10:47:15 http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 10:47:17 edlinde: Works great on ccl. 10:47:19 I was on this site... 10:47:30 wondering how I can install quicklisp in CCL? 10:47:31 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:47:40 Follow the directions on that page. 10:47:41 am new to emacs too unfortunately :) 10:47:57 Doesn't require emacs. 10:48:53 but aren't those instructions specific to SBCL? 10:49:05 pardon my ignorance (at the moment) :) 10:49:06 edlinde: are they? 10:49:16 $ sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp 10:49:31 edlinde: Did you read the first paragraph? 10:49:36 -!- chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:49:39 edlinde: use (load #"path-to-quicklisp.lisp) in your implementation of choice, that's all 10:49:48 I dont mind ignorance, but chronic inability to read is pretty annoying. 10:49:50 Joreji [~thomas@88-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:50:01 heheh ok my bad 10:50:05 lemme check it out 10:50:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 10:51:18 ok now I have gone ahead and downloaded quicklisp.lisp 10:51:37 #" probably wouldn't work 10:51:40 can I keep it anywhere on the filesystem or you guys suggest a better place? 10:52:14 also if there is a way to load quicklisp as I load slime? 10:52:50 edlinde: quicklisp.lisp is just the installer and can go anywhere. it's only used once. 10:53:08 edlinde: after you load it and it installs, you can use (ql:add-to-init-file) to set up quicklisp when your lisp starts. 10:53:29 serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:38 Hello! 10:53:55 so I basically compile quicklisp.lisp in emacs once and its installed? did I get that right? 10:54:42 not emacs 10:54:51 it is not related to emacs it is a lisp file 10:54:59 ok 10:55:02 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 10:55:03 emacs is the editor 10:56:59 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:57:11 emacs is more! 10:57:20 ah sorry 10:57:22 well the thing is that I don't know what the equivalent of "sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp" could be in CCL 10:57:25 ed is the editor! 10:57:59 I understand this will help me load this lisp file from which I can then install 10:58:07 edlinde: you won't believe it, ccl --load quicklisp.lisp 10:58:07 (load "/some/path/quicklisp.lisp") i guess 10:58:12 so with ccl.. I always open emacs and just type in M-x slime 10:58:16 and off I go 10:58:43 stassats`: hmm it doesn't know where ccl is 10:58:47 so will look for ccl 10:59:06 so you connect ccl from emacs right? 10:59:26 did you try typing what i wrote 11:00:06 nope ... will try it out now.. 11:00:21 carlocci [~nes@93.37.210.70] has joined #lisp 11:00:38 open emacs connect your cl environment whatever way you want and type in inside the repl 11:00:42 edlinde: it also works out of slime 11:00:48 yeah it worked 11:00:52 just C-c C-k quicklisp.look and it works 11:00:55 I got the prompt 11:01:17 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:02:21 the steps after that are the same for every implementation i guess (in fact that was also the same for every implementation) 11:03:38 should I use --> (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") 11:03:40 for slime 11:03:57 I have gone and completed the quicklisp installation 11:04:05 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:20 and the add-to-init file 11:04:51 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 11:04:53 edlinde: i can't help you there since i haven't used ql before :\ 11:05:03 no probs 11:05:12 Xach: can I get your help here? :) 11:05:20 but if there is a slime helper, and if you use slime, why not using it :D 11:05:41 Xach: I now have it installed.. was wondering how to know the name of the project I would like to download - like vecto? 11:06:10 Xach: sorry its system-apropos I see 11:06:21 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has joined #lisp 11:06:40 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 11:06:48 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:07:32 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:08:28 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:08:51 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:23 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.26.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:14:51 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:15:46 when I add "(load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el"))" to my .emacs... my slime repl doesn't load up 11:15:48 :( 11:17:35 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-178-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:17:53 edlinde: So don't add that to your .emacs. If you have slime already working, you don't need quicklisp-slime-helper. 11:18:22 I have slime.. just wasn't sure how I can use quicklisp from slime 11:18:47 I mean if I have to lookup something quickly and see the sample code for it I can do a search with that apropos command yeah? 11:18:49 edlinde: You just use it. If it's in your init file, you don't have to do anything special. 11:18:56 k 11:19:14 will try it out a bit 11:19:15 :) 11:19:31 edlinde: The sources are unpacked into ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/ so you can review them when you like. 11:19:43 ok cool 11:19:45 You can also use M-. to find things quickly if they are loaded. 11:19:47 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:20:08 so say I want to know where macros are used.. just to see more sample code for macros 11:20:14 how would I go about doing that? 11:20:38 or is that a stupid thing to search for? :) 11:20:48 A first approximation would be to read the sources and find the macro names in the sexps. 11:20:54 (ql:system-apropos "defmacro") 11:20:56 -!- lune [~claire@97.76.48.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:21:04 edlinde: It's too specific. Nobody starts a project and thinks "Gee, I'll be sure to use lots of macros!" They just use the tools in the toolbox. 11:21:25 edlinde: I recommend reading the source of cl-ppcre to get a review of a lot of different CL features, including macros. 11:21:26 hehe yeah 11:21:35 ok 11:21:47 edlinde: in any case, you don't have to go far to trip on a macro. almost 50% of the symbols from CL are macros. 11:21:58 yeah ok 11:22:10 but I am just trying to think of how best I can use quicklisp 11:22:28 I mean next thing I want to do some file transformations and binary search trees etc 11:22:36 but I wouldn't know what project uses them 11:22:47 so would I use (ql:system-apropos "search trees") 11:22:59 Well, I exagerate, there are 92 macros in #+clisp CL. 11:23:00 or something like that to look for projects that implement this? 11:23:13 10% 11:23:44 edlinde: quicklisp will make things easy to get, but probably not all that easy to find. 11:24:02 hmm ok 11:24:44 Xach: so how do you suggest I go about looking for modules that are more specific to some realms like datastructures, file manipulation etc? 11:24:47 quantum [~nurlan@109.127.27.99] has joined #lisp 11:24:57 I mean are there better ways you guys employ? 11:25:08 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:25:17 look cliki and cl-directory 11:25:33 edlinde: I'd suggest just picking projects and browsing them and reading them without a specific goal like that. 11:25:40 or cl-user i dont remember which one has categories 11:25:41 Is Nils M Holm on this channel? I want his books. 11:25:48 leo2007: I don't think so. 11:25:58 schmrkc: http://www.canvasdemos.com/2009/07/09/game-development-tutorials/, just found this on HN, might interest you 11:26:22 Xach: thanks. 11:27:00 i saw Schopenhauer and Dostoevsky here, i have their books 11:27:32 stassats`: both are a bit pessimistic 11:27:42 Xach: ok 11:27:57 makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has joined #lisp 11:28:23 edlinde: and try to read code more carefully than you read web pages. 11:28:35 Xach: yeah yeah :) 11:29:07 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-222.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@88-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:31:19 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:42 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:42 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:36:42 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 11:36:48 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:38:22 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 11:38:36 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 11:38:44 ddevaal [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 11:38:54 -!- ddevaal is now known as ddv 11:39:59 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-51.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:40:14 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:40:57 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:41:33 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:00 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 11:42:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qozmyhaqeirnsrrx] has left #lisp 11:45:31 -!- quantum [~nurlan@109.127.27.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:46:09 quantum [~nurlan@109.127.27.99] has joined #lisp 11:46:19 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-114-131.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:46:19 i have to kill slime first when starting it with sbcl in emacs, then manually start with M-x again, what maybe the 11:46:19 cause of that ? 11:46:37 the first one tries to connect endlessly 11:46:55 polls and polls... 11:47:33 but aborting the connection then starting slime again does work 11:47:59 without killing the inferior-lisp already running 11:48:06 homie: maybe you're starting it incorrectly the first time? 11:48:08 homie: I've had trouble with that and heard it was an emacs bug. 11:48:13 oh 11:48:18 ok 11:49:14 -!- makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has left #lisp 11:49:46 ok it was in 23.2 and it is in 24.0.50.1 too 11:51:46 feep[nb] [~feep@dfn336.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has joined #lisp 11:51:49 hi 11:52:09 I tried to implement conditions in my C-like toy language, but a lisper friend of mine says I got it wrong 11:52:19 then he went to sleep :( 11:52:53 any idea what he could have meant? 11:52:55 http://pastebin.ca/1985228 11:54:20 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 11:54:37 feep[nb]: What's his telephone number? I'll call and ask. 11:54:41 heh 11:54:44 I wish I had that. 11:54:51 -!- Revolve [~hi@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:54:56 Intercontinental friends, I'm afraid. 11:56:05 anyway the idea is, callHandler invokes the set-handler block as a callback, which then longjmps to define-exit. 11:56:16 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:57:00 to my knowledge, that's how conditions are _supposed_ to work 11:57:17 feep[nb]: control must be within both the handler-wrapped code and the restartable block for a restart to be invoked 11:57:21 I don't get what he means at all. 11:57:46 can't you wait? 11:58:04 I'd prefer to fix any issues this code may have before I completely forget how it works. The impl is butt-ugly. 11:58:10 feep[nb]: For the source code you have linked? 11:58:10 but yeah sure, I can wait : 11:58:11 feep[nb]: I recommend you read this: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html 11:58:12 :)* 11:58:20 I was just wondering if there was something _obviously_ wrong with it 11:58:22 *feep[nb]* reads 11:58:39 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:58:59 Revolve [~hi@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:48 feep[nb]: Too many { and } 12:00:33 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ghbdvzybupbppoew] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:00:34 Xach: for me, reading the code samples in the link is "too many ( and )" :-) 12:01:00 I guess that's what I get for trying to steal language features from a so different language :p 12:01:34 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:02:38 feep[nb]: Conditions in Lisp work differently from exceptions in most languages for one thing, the stack is not unwound when the handler is called. 12:02:44 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.56] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:53 beach: I got that part. 12:03:03 beach: callHandler calls the set-handler block as a callback. 12:03:14 What unrolls the stack is the invoke-exit call. 12:03:56 also, if you will, s/callHandler/signal/g 12:04:35 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-54.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:07:34 vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-54.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 12:12:08 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 12:12:35 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has left #lisp 12:12:35 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 12:16:11 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 12:18:40 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-41.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:19:54 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hhgkeeledifhvbjg] has joined #lisp 12:20:57 koning_robot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 12:22:16 -!- koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.104.186] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:24:47 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e58.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:47 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:25:24 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:25:38 tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:1c39:799:9c78:1f68] has joined #lisp 12:27:17 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hhgkeeledifhvbjg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:28:41 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:31:35 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:32:17 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jjouhstshvnakzub] has joined #lisp 12:32:46 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 12:32:51 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-22.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 12:33:49 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:34:06 chp [~chp@114.113.67.226] has joined #lisp 12:34:35 LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has joined #lisp 12:34:55 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 12:35:29 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.56] has joined #lisp 12:35:33 Maou [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has joined #lisp 12:36:25 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Client Quit] 12:37:13 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-22.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:38:18 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 12:39:25 -!- LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:39:50 -!- Maou [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:40:05 LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has joined #lisp 12:40:54 Maou [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has joined #lisp 12:43:04 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:45:14 -!- LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:45:46 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:45:52 -!- Maou [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:46:05 LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has joined #lisp 12:46:57 Maou [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has joined #lisp 12:48:40 quantum1 [~nurlan@109.127.27.99] has joined #lisp 12:49:00 -!- quantum [~nurlan@109.127.27.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:49:41 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-41.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 12:51:17 -!- LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:51:23 -!- Maou [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:51:45 LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has joined #lisp 12:52:58 Maou [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has joined #lisp 12:56:02 _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.106.62] has joined #lisp 12:56:02 -!- LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:56:29 LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has joined #lisp 12:57:50 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:57:56 -!- Maou [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:00:02 -!- jdz_ [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:00:09 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:06 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:07 -!- Revolve [~hi@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:02:44 enupten [~neptune@117.254.153.91] has joined #lisp 13:03:14 Revolve [~hi@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:29 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.153.91] has quit [Client Quit] 13:03:41 enupten [~neptune@117.254.153.91] has joined #lisp 13:04:11 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-61-131-100.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:06 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 13:08:20 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:57 -!- blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:16 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:18 -!- quantum1 [~nurlan@109.127.27.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:09:26 roight, gonna wait for him to wake up. thanks for halp. 13:09:33 -!- feep[nb] [~feep@dfn336.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has left #lisp 13:10:17 quantum [~nurlan@109.127.28.149] has joined #lisp 13:12:21 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:12:27 -!- kmurph79 [~kmurph79@66-215-55-253.dhcp.snlo.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: kmurph79] 13:13:30 Hmm, my twitter client started working without OAuth out of the blue. 13:13:41 *Xach* sees the first lisp meeting tweet in some time 13:16:30 mtk [~mtk@host251.diamondbackcap.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:59 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:44 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:49 urandom__ [~user@p548A33BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:57 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 13:21:41 lune [~claire@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 13:23:54 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:57 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-164-95.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:06 hi nyef 13:24:13 Hello fe[nl]ix. 13:25:17 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:25:38 gah, my C-j in the slime-scratch does not work 13:26:50 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:48 your? 13:28:16 i tried to set it up explicitly, without success either 13:28:27 set to what? 13:28:46 by binding a key to slime-eval-print-last-expression or so 13:28:55 it seems not bound 13:29:08 how do you bind it? 13:29:55 from within emacs i tried, whithout success and i tried to set also something in my .swank.lisp file also without success 13:30:11 this is going nowhere 13:30:12 in emacs i tried global-set-key 13:30:18 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:30:29 and add-hook 'slime-mode-hook 13:30:55 global-set-key is too global 13:31:03 but actually it should come bound i mean with slime 13:31:17 i didn't set anything which would shadow the binding myself in my .emacs file 13:31:43 C-j is bound globally in GNU Emacs by default 13:32:10 yes, but works only in emacs *scratch* not in *slime-scratch* buffer 13:32:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:32:31 in *scratch* it has a different local binding 13:33:00 so is there a way to set it then ? for slime ? 13:34:44 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:34:46 it's already bound to slime-eval-print-last-expression 13:35:09 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-61-131-100.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:36:44 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:14 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:39:50 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:43:30 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-54.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:44:59 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 13:45:00 hah, and slime-eval-pprint-last-expression takes me to a *slime-description* buffer where it inserts the result of 13:45:01 C-c C-p there 13:45:14 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:46:59 homie: i wasn't talking about slime-eval-pprint-last-expression 13:48:07 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.210.70] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 13:55:18 makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has joined #lisp 13:55:33 -!- s0ng0ku [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:55:33 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-169-185.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:56:54 -!- V-ille [~ville@70.42.89.16] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:57:22 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:35 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:58:46 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 13:58:50 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:11 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:13 -!- quantum [~nurlan@109.127.28.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:03:29 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jjouhstshvnakzub] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:03:44 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:04:50 -!- mtk [~mtk@host251.diamondbackcap.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:10 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 14:06:22 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 14:07:24 kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.204] has joined #lisp 14:07:24 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.204] has quit [Changing host] 14:07:24 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:08:53 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:08:56 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:09:20 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:33 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:26 s0ng0ku [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:54 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-91.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:33 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-101-69.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:15:41 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pewlmyrqvikplfoe] has joined #lisp 14:15:57 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:17:42 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:17:47 xan_ [~xan@173-13-121-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:58 -!- makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has left #lisp 14:18:32 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:59 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 14:19:42 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 14:20:17 Xach: hey hi, is it possible to get the quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software folder get put in 14:20:17 /usr/share¢ommon-lisp/source ? 14:20:41 Xach: like quicklisp enclosing it i mean 14:21:06 homie: You can move the quicklisp directory anywhere you like. You would then initialize it by loading /wherever/it/is/quicklisp/setup.lisp 14:21:27 Xach: ah ok, so it is possible ? cool 14:21:55 jweiss [~jweiss@nat/redhat/x-bsnycclnaosmwfco] has joined #lisp 14:21:59 Yes. The "setup.lisp" file is considered the home of quicklisp, and everything is checked relative to it. 14:22:08 The directory in which it's loaded, that is. 14:22:13 ok 14:22:19 i'll move it soon then 14:26:15 will symlinking work too ? 14:26:51 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:26:58 homie: I don't know. I don't think so, but maybe. 14:27:06 ok 14:31:52 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.106.62] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:33:52 Xach: thanks for answering one of my questions on S/O! :D 14:35:06 Which one? 14:35:25 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:35:42 the one i stupidly mis-titled when skeeo deprived, about returning a list from a file of words 14:35:51 sleep* 14:36:20 chupish [182e16d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.22.215] has joined #lisp 14:37:41 What does the file look like? 14:38:00 oh no, you already answered the question for me :) 14:38:51 maybe it was not Xach, but some evil impostor 14:39:21 They are everywhere. 14:39:30 lol 14:39:31 nope. i recongized the musk. 14:40:47 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 14:41:34 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:07 osoleve: What does the file look like? 14:42:40 it's just a list of random words, for a hangman game 14:43:04 Did you create the file? 14:43:11 yup yup 14:43:34 and i got it working, thanks to the input on S/o 14:44:10 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:26 taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD95B80.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:46 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:45:39 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:45:59 clhs parse-character 14:46:00 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for parse-character. 14:46:04 darn 14:46:16 What would parse-character do? 14:46:17 clhs read 14:46:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm 14:46:27 clhs read-char 14:46:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_cha.htm 14:48:06 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pewlmyrqvikplfoe] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:48:10 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 14:48:16 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:57 Hmm, I have found an apparent cffi-uffi-compat incompatibility. 14:50:39 maybe not. this is quite a wacky library! 14:52:29 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 14:53:54 -!- s0ng0ku is now known as churib 14:54:13 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:49 Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@85.22.93.138] has joined #lisp 14:55:51 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu252.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:56:17 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:56:18 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 14:56:42 -!- Modius [~Modius@70.123.158.125] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 14:58:08 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.153.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:59:20 -!- xan_ [~xan@173-13-121-41-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:03:03 araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has joined #lisp 15:03:03 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has quit [Changing host] 15:03:03 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:03:56 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-41.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 15:07:45 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:08:05 _bob [5146e16c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.70.225.108] has joined #lisp 15:08:21 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 15:08:49 quicklisp replaces clbuild, so clbuild can be safely deleted. Is that correct? 15:09:08 not really correct 15:09:37 both do it different, but sure if you gonna use more quicklisp you can do that 15:09:46 -!- superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 15:09:47 drl: I think that many people have used clbuild for things that quicklisp also does (and does better). But there are other things that clbuild was designed for which quicklisp doesn't try to address. 15:10:54 lichtblau, for instance? 15:11:02 drl: building sbcl and stuff 15:11:06 askatasuna [~askatasun@host230.190-3-1.static.telmex.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:11:38 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-27.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:01 For instance, clbuild is as shell scripts that can start various lisps for you, and start emacs with slime preconfigured. quicklisp doesn't aim to do that. 15:13:46 Also, for me personally, the primary purpose of clbuild is that it manages my version controlled checkouts for me -- it's a convenient wrapper around git and darcs. quicklisp doesn't do that at all; it solves the tarball downloading problem instead. 15:14:36 Well, that's not quite true. Quicklisp manages version controlled checkouts as well, but on a server somewhere else, not on your local computer. 15:15:22 It's a really big wrapper. 15:15:48 i found an error in with-timout.lisp of trivial-shell 15:16:16 it was +cmucl or something and then in the body somewhere it referred to sb-ext 15:16:23 instead of just ext 15:16:32 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:16:51 Yes, quicklisp is good at fetching fresh stuff from version-control. I like that about quicklisp. 15:16:54 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:17:10 It's much more of a one-way street, though. 15:17:36 You don't get a VCS-managed directory for a given project that you can diff and patch and commit and all that stuff. 15:17:40 -!- stokachu` is now known as stokachu 15:18:08 Indeed, that's what I meant when I said that it doesn't manage my version controlled checkouts. 15:18:21 so behind the scenes, does the quicklisp infrastructure test that projects continue to build as they're updated through version control, before pushing updates into the quicklisp distribution? 15:18:26 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:18:42 hefner: Yes. 15:19:23 hefner: It's a pretty narrow build test. I'd like to test on more configurations and make that info more easily available. 15:19:25 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:19:50 Like, clsql-odbc apparently has some random sbclisms in it, so it's not going to work on clozure cl. 15:20:10 Right now that's discovered by someone trying it. I'd like to mechanize the trying-it part. 15:20:31 I agree that the old clbuild from darcs is dead though. 15:20:50 Long live the new clbuild from git (under the current working title "qlbuild", perhaps to be renamed to clbuild2 at some point). 15:21:38 Xach: do you avoid the idea of ql managing VCS checkouts using tags, or it's just not explored yet? 15:22:21 lichtblau, Hun, homie, and Zach, ok. Thanks for the clarification. I've installed quicklisp, and will try it out. 15:22:30 lichtblau: "qlbuild"? that seems a ripoff of quicklisp namespace 15:23:18 yates: well, it's about clbuild/quicklisp interoperability, so the ql as a reference to quicklisp is intentional there. 15:23:39 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:24:02 It's a shell script that downloads quicklisp for you, _and_ has some clbuild-like goodies. 15:24:19 oh 15:24:36 attila_lendvai: Just not explored yet. 15:25:52 xan_ [~xan@18.111.46.149] has joined #lisp 15:26:11 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:26:38 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:38 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:26:38 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 15:27:06 i get an error on the dagger character with cmucl is that normal ? (docutils/writers/latex.lisp, character position 15:27:06 18060, line 440) 15:28:05 what is the "official" site of clhs? 15:28:11 yates: on lispworks.com 15:28:17 http://www.cliki.net/CLHS? 15:28:18 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm is it 15:28:25 ok, thx 15:28:31 josemanuel [~josemanue@250.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:29:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:29:48 the error is here http://pastie.org/1281765 15:30:01 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:15 enupten [~neptune@117.254.145.130] has joined #lisp 15:30:18 attila_lendvai: More things changed in the first month of the quicklisp beta than I expected. I'd like to get more experience to get better intuition about how project tracking should work. 15:31:04 have a look in raw since the pastie is showing it differently 15:31:38 -!- xan_ [~xan@18.111.46.149] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:31:43 xan_ [~xan@18.111.46.149] has joined #lisp 15:32:00 Xach: yeah, I almost feel ashamed that I'm lazily lagging behind the ql happenings... ql is filling in a big hole in the cl community and people are grabbing after it... 15:32:55 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.118] has joined #lisp 15:33:25 I personally have a few shell for loops to help managing multiple VCS repos and it works good enough for now. but there certainly could be more automatization, especially when it comes to sharing codebase-state with less involved parties... 15:34:43 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:35:01 -!- _bob [5146e16c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.70.225.108] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:36:09 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 15:36:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 15:36:09 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:36:31 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 15:36:32 -!- xan_ [~xan@18.111.46.149] has quit [Client Quit] 15:36:38 xan_ [~xan@18.111.46.149] has joined #lisp 15:37:16 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:37:20 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:41:04 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:06 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 15:41:46 *hefner* boots Movitz for the first time since 2004, 2003, or thereabouts. Stares blankly at INIT> prompt. 15:42:07 *Xach* ponders ql for movitz 15:43:21 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has joined #lisp 15:45:16 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:46:12 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:48:20 "movitz" has now got the "I like to move it move it" song stuck in my head 15:49:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:50:08 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:50:18 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:50:27 I thought you were talking about Movits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnaeImQ0TSg&feature=&p=0877B02C9B1D2F56&index=0&playnext=1 15:50:29 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:50:45 homie: You probably need to compile that file with the correct external format. 15:51:14 oh oh 15:51:23 Oh, but quicklisp compiled that for me just fine. 15:51:35 even the paragaph character is displayed as a box in my emacs 15:51:42 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@250.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 15:52:07 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:52:42 AFAICT, that character is right_double_quotation_mark, not a dagger. 15:53:31 -!- chp [~chp@114.113.67.226] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:53:34 homie: I don't see a paragraph character. Where is that? 15:54:27 line 443 15:54:54 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:55:39 rtoym: the error is telling something about an eval, and that has to do with write-sequence or so on line 1327 15:55:57 or 1326 15:56:20 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:56:25 yep it is 1327 15:56:39 fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:11 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:57:53 nope the error is referring to exactly line 1326 yep 15:59:00 it tries to enclose it with backquotes 15:59:07 as i understand 15:59:08 Heh. Movitz again? 15:59:11 as far i mean 15:59:26 *hefner* shrugs 15:59:49 Does it even have a file-compiler and fasls yet? 15:59:54 as much as I like the idea of a lisp OS, I can't stand the idea of committing to any one lisp implementation 16:00:22 No reason you couldn't have a lisp-to-lisp FFI 16:00:39 homie: The restarts indicate that you're compiling latex.lisp. How are you compiling it? Are you doing something like require or asdf to compile/load latex.lisp in your cmucl-init? 16:01:26 And the error message is displaying the form where the error occurred. 16:01:28 finally I realized it isn't just because the godlike superlisp hasn't descended from the heavens to build the system to on, just that what I really want is a skeleton that establishes data formats, calling conventions, memory management, to let more modern language implementations interoperate 16:01:47 rtoym: yes i load just the system with asdf 16:02:09 rtoym: just docutils itself 16:02:45 wait i'll fire up cmucl itself without any other packages and try to load it again 16:03:32 nyef: anyway, no, I don't think it has those things. it doesn't have a file system. 16:04:12 (I wonder if it has an IDE driver; if it does, there's really no excuse, so long as you don't want a *good*, or even decent filesystem) 16:05:00 still, I'm impressed at how much of CL it looks like the cross-compiler implements 16:05:49 rtoym: yep starting cmucl with -noinit -nositeinit and then loading the package does show the same errors (from konsole) 16:05:55 Doesn't it have an ext2fs driver? 16:06:56 rtoym: and recompiling it does not fix 16:07:49 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:16 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:31 nyef: there's some code for one there, but it isn't compiled in by default, so I'll assume it's not ready for prime time 16:09:02 Movitz itself is hardly ready for prime time. 16:09:03 homie: I didn't have any problems with (require :docutils) in my cmucl-init.lisp or entering it directly from the repl. 16:09:43 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-103-145.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:09:54 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-66.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:10:07 rtoym: which version do you have ? 16:10:40 I'm running 2010-11. 16:11:36 heh. the subtext here is either snarling at an SBCLOS competitor, or "hefner is an idiot" 16:13:45 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@85.22.93.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:14:24 +* swank-loader.lisp: ASDF free again. And proud of it! 16:14:25 oh my version seems to be 20101006 16:14:27 :) 16:14:43 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:15:23 jeti [~user@p548E9AB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:46 homie: Not according to your paste. It says snapshot-2010-11. 16:15:54 felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:04 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:16:19 hefner: Ehh... More that the world doesn't actually need a LispOS, and there hasn't been a full LispOS in ages. 16:16:47 rtoym: thats my snapshot for cmucl, not cl-docutils itself 16:17:16 Movitz is fairly impressive, but I /still/ can't deal with its compiler. 16:18:10 homie: Oh. docutils is 20101006. Which is what quicklisp downloaded for me. 16:18:26 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:19 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:20:26 carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.44] has joined #lisp 16:20:34 nyef: what's wrong with it, aside from being yet another lisp compiler with no talent for optimization? 16:20:45 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-245-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:46 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-245-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:21:30 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-245-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:36 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C1EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:22:17 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-245-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:22:31 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C1EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:40 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-178-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:55 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-178-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:23:13 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:24:38 Too monolithic, no obvious place to insert file-compilation semantics, et cetera. 16:25:23 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-245-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:25:41 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-245-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:25:49 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 16:27:08 sorry, was disconnected 16:27:47 is there any standard lisp function to get the extension of a file 16:27:48 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has left #lisp 16:28:14 rtoym: i can confirm, getting it anew from the repos, cleaned all cache dirs for it before, started lisp with 16:28:14 -noinit -nositeinit loaded my quicklisp setup.lisp and required docutils, gives the same error 16:29:39 PuffTheMagic: something like pathname-type? It is system-dependent, though. 16:29:43 dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-222.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 16:30:39 thanks 16:30:46 there is filename-sans-extension 16:30:51 in emacs 16:31:35 ah filename-extension is there too 16:31:45 but that's all elisp 16:31:50 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:32:34 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:32:54 serichsen, is there a way to get an implementations file type/extension for compiled lisp files? 16:33:42 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 16:34:00 clhs compile-file-pathname 16:34:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp__1.htm 16:34:01 -!- felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has left #lisp 16:35:10 thanks 16:36:10 fe[nl]ix, i dont want to specify a file 16:36:14 taylanub0 [~taylanub@p4FD96276.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:18 that would defeat the purpose of what im trying to do 16:37:10 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD95B80.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:37:12 -!- taylanub0 is now known as taylanub 16:37:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:38 doesn't need to be a real file 16:37:43 Good evening everyone! 16:37:45 PuffTheMagic: what makes you think that there is a single extension(in general) ? 16:37:47 or are you saying i need to do something like this: (filename-extension (compile-file-pathname "fake.lisp")) 16:37:55 huh. common-lisp-controller is causing a failure in 1.0.44 where it didn't cause any in 1.0.43 16:38:01 -!- fade is now known as Fade 16:38:01 PuffTheMagic: or that compile-file generates a single file ? 16:38:10 Fade: yay 16:38:31 the fix is simple (chmod 0 the clc configs) 16:38:39 but kind of a weird regression. 16:39:20 fe[nl]ix, im not trying to assume that compile-file only produces 1 file, i just want to know what the extension is going to when files are compiled 16:39:24 not such a big deal because the onlything I ever use the debian sbcl for is to bootstrap an sbcl from source the first time. 16:39:36 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:40:43 Fade: it's a weird interaction between c-l-c and asdf2. 16:41:47 fe[nl]ix, i have a function that could be passed many file types (not just lisp files) but for lisp files i want to a compile and load, if its a xfasl file for example, i just want to load it 16:41:58 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:59 but i dont want to hardcode xfasl because that is lw specific 16:42:14 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 16:42:33 PuffTheMagic: ISTR that SBCL sprouted something similar not so long ago for finding host fasl extensions. 16:42:40 syntard [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 16:42:48 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:01 PuffTheMagic: (pathname-type (compile-file-pathname "foo.lisp")) 16:44:48 Is there some way to hide (make unavailable) a named restart? I'd like to make a default CONTINUE restart (established by someone else) inaccessible in a local context. I know how to shadow a restart with a new one, but not how to make one inaccessible... 16:45:59 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:46:10 I want to make an inappropriate SBCL-established restart inaccessible... 16:46:27 tagbody, return-from and go-to i think 16:46:36 to jump over that part maybe ? 16:46:38 rpg: In what way is it inappropriate? 16:47:03 beach: it drops me into the REPL in a batch-mode computation. 16:47:29 I see. 16:48:07 is system:*binary-file-types* just a lw thing? 16:48:17 I have code where SOMETIMES there is an appropriate CONTINUE restart, so I have an error handler that tries to invoke CONTINUE. Unfortunately, by doing this it also picks up a default restart established by SBCL when you use --load.... 16:48:22 PuffTheMagic: yes. 16:48:52 beach: What I'm looking for is the proper version of (restart-bind ((continue nil)) ...) 16:49:00 rpg: Oddly, apropos for "handler-clusters", and be aware that what you want is going to be massively unportable and unsupported. 16:49:22 V-ille [~ville@ville-hp.dhcp.fnal.gov] has joined #lisp 16:49:29 Hrm... Wait, that's for conditions, not restarts. 16:49:30 nyef: you mean restart-clusters ? 16:49:38 Yeah, that'd be more likely. 16:50:05 ... honey-oat-clusters? 16:50:33 So I could look for all the available restarts and then delete the ones in sb-kernel:*restart-clusters*? 16:51:15 No, that's where all the available restarts are stored. 16:51:28 Bind it to NIL, and try looking for restarts. :-P 16:51:41 Maybe I'm trying too hard --- is there some way to have handler-bind invoke a restart that will decline to handle the condition? I couldn't see how to do that from reading the CLHS. 16:52:14 As I read it, it seemed that if you find a restart and invoke it, the condition is handled. 16:52:28 nope, that's what handler-case does 16:52:57 with handler-bind, if the handler returns, the signaler goes on 16:53:20 if the problem is that you don't want a repl, but would rather crash out, I think the answer might be to make the repl inaccessible, rather than any restart 16:53:37 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-232.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:54:22 Krystof: No, I don't want to crash out. I want to invoke my CONTINUEs, if there are any, and if there aren't, I'd like to fall through to a default error handling strategy which I have implemented locally. 16:54:37 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-66.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:54:43 The problem is that when I try to invoke the local CONTINUE restarts, I pick up the inappropriate outer default restart. 16:55:29 I really simply want to not have the continue restart that SBCL wraps around --load. 16:55:39 patch it out 16:56:08 (duh) 16:56:26 or maybe when you say "simply" you don't actually mean it 16:57:16 -!- Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:57:18 -!- tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:1c39:799:9c78:1f68] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:57:20 Krystof: If these worked like dynamic variables, my shadowing would shadow, but in this case it doesn't. I suppose I could look when I start up, find the restart I don't like, and make sure I never invoke it. 16:57:47 Krystof: By patch it out, do you mean "remove it from the image"? 16:57:51 your shadowing should shadow 16:57:55 yes, I do 16:58:18 if your problem specification is "I simply do not want the continue restart", then removing seems like both the simplest and only solution 16:59:39 Krystof: The problem arises because I have a region of code R, wrapped in an error handler that attempts to invoke CONTINUE. Contained in R is a sub-region where there is a good CONTINUE restart, R'. But in R-R' there is no continue restart, and the SBCL one "shines through." 17:00:36 It is becoming clear that what I /should/ have done was establish a new restart, MY-CONTINUE, that would do what I want, and would not be confused with the standard CONTINUE restart. 17:01:23 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:01:27 I have two questions about your problem: "why is your handler not wrapped around R'?" and "what do you mean, 'shines through'?". In R-R' there is no other continue restart, so what would you like to happen? 17:03:39 or are you saying that there is actually a different continue restart of yours, but sbcl's is chosen in preference, and you don't understand why? I'm not understanding how your code is laid out 17:03:51 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 17:04:30 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:04:39 In R-R1 I would like the call to (CONTINUE C) to fail to find a restart, meaning that the handler will decline to handle, and code further out can do the error handling. This is actually what happens when the code is run from the REPL, instead of from --load. 17:05:10 I.e., what I really want is code run in --load to run in the same restart context as code run from the REPL. 17:06:37 I think what I'd suggest in that case is to use here documents 17:06:39 Krystof: As for the first question, R', the region where there's a good CONTINUE restart, isn't "convex", so it's not easy to wrap the handler around /only/ R' without grabbing up some of R-R', as well. 17:07:01 instead of sbcl --load foo.lisp, use 17:07:06 sbcl < (load "foo.lisp") 17:07:09 EOF 17:07:13 pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.175.136] has joined #lisp 17:07:35 Krystof: Ah. Thanks. I didn't realize that worked. I tried doing some horrible mess using echo and pipes.... 17:07:56 if you don't like the unsightly * prompt that that will end up echoing, you could do 17:07:57 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 17:08:45 sbcl --eval '(setq *repl-prompt-fun* (lambda (stream) (fresh-line stream)))' < or something 17:08:55 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.145.130] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 17:11:12 -!- serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 17:11:59 tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:18ea:25f6:bed1:7141] has joined #lisp 17:12:14 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 17:12:14 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 17:12:14 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:13:11 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:13:30 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:16 aliudalius [~user@li121-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:46 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2CE8.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:50 Krystof: Thank you so much for the "here document" solution. Seems to be working fine. 17:19:36 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:20:07 Saturnation [~dsouth@pool-70-109-180-199.burl.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:13 rpg: good-oh 17:20:39 I was groping for a too-complicated lisp solution because of not being an adequate bash programmer. 17:20:58 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:21:17 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:28 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:51 well, I can see both sides of why you might or might not want restarts around --load and --eval arguments 17:22:36 kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:45 Krystof: I do think it seems odd that (if I'm right), there's no way of innermost code making an outer restart invisible. 17:26:39 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:01 benny` [~benny@i577A7B60.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:27:09 it can't, but it can nonetheless shadow 17:27:29 testing for the absence of one of the standardized restarts isn't a good plan because anyone can define one of those 17:27:59 Krystof: I think that probably avoiding the standardized restart names is a good plan for the future. 17:27:59 you can test for the absence of a restart that only you control, or you can be sure to shadow a standardized restart everywhere 17:28:49 that is, if you wrap (restart-case ... (continue () )) around your code, your setup should work 17:30:15 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e58.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:17 Krystof: The issue arises here because of an odd case --- the same code that is written for long-term operations with little supervision (attempts to handle all errors and bull through) being run in a unit-test environment to validate. 17:31:44 Then FURTHER complicated because the particular unit test in question is attempting to test error logging! Almost a poster child for "corner case." 17:32:08 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:02 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:34:07 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:09 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:34:09 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 17:35:04 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:38:19 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:38:36 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:40:05 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:41:10 killerstorm [~killersto@vpn132.donapex.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:42 hi. a quick question: is there a common name for (cdr (assoc ...))? 17:42:20 how do you people deal with alists? 17:42:23 dnm_ [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:02 alexandria:assoc-value 17:44:30 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:44:50 killerstorm: the purpose of returning a cons (as I understand it) is to not have an ambiguity between a NIL value and non-existent value. 17:45:35 indeed, thanks. in fact I was just looking at it, but documentation confused me -- it says "very much like ASSOC, but ..." so I thought it is like ASSOC 17:46:30 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:46:33 well, you can use it with SETF, which is nice. 17:47:07 another reason for returning a cons is so you can continue searching 17:47:40 ah, that's for plists 17:47:44 (get-properties) 17:48:18 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:19 how much do lisp programmers agree to work for in us, on average? 17:48:32 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:48:56 -!- killerstorm [~killersto@vpn132.donapex.net] has left #lisp 17:49:36 If a generic function's arguments' classes can be determined from type declarations, will SBCL do the method dispatch at compile time? 17:50:44 killerstorm [c3e19c84@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.225.156.132] has joined #lisp 17:51:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:51:10 Bronsa [~bronsa@host98-180-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:51:10 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-114-131.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:51:11 hefner_ [~hefner@ppp-58-9-114-131.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:51:20 Hi all, is there a concept of "continuations" in Lisp? 17:51:27 just heard about it today :) 17:51:59 I couldn't find any literature on how continuations might be implemented in Lisp? 17:52:57 Weblocks is continuation-based, also I read about continuation implementation in "On Lisp" 17:53:11 ah I see 17:53:18 lemme check On Lisp 17:53:21 edlinde: I don't know very much about it, but I've heard that Continuation Passing Style is one way to do it in Lisp. 17:53:21 edlinde: dwim and arnesi both have a continuations package as well 17:53:36 minion: continuation 17:53:37 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``continuation''. 17:53:41 minion: cl-cont 17:53:41 cl-cont: cl-cont is a delimited continuations library for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-cont 17:53:44 I still have to understand how continuations work 17:53:52 edlinde: http://www.cliki.net/CPS 17:53:56 bobbysmith007: hu.dwim.delico is a fixed version of arnesi 17:54:23 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-232.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:54:27 do you know any good resources other than "On Lisp" that explains continuations with examples? 17:54:36 I wasn't sure I understood when to use them really 17:54:37 "Continuation" is a general concept, it can be done in multiple ways. 17:54:45 LiamH: no 17:54:54 Scheme texts usually do.. also PAIP implements continuations in its Scheme compiler 17:55:05 LiSP as well 17:55:06 edlinde: scheme implements them first-class so, best way to start i think 17:55:19 ok its just that the examples we saw in class where in Erlang and SML 17:55:41 Krystof: OK, thanks. 17:56:14 so in Lisp if I had to do backtracking would I use continuation? 17:56:29 yeah I want to stay away from scheme 17:56:35 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:40 I didn't know PAIP used scheme examples? 17:56:48 edlinde: a continuation is a first-class representation of "the rest of the computation" 17:57:02 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-159.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:57:04 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:57:09 lisp has continuations 17:57:15 paul graham used them in 90s 17:57:25 scheme, right? 17:57:35 edlinde: PAIP uses Common Lisp, but has chapters on a Prolog interpreter and compiler (which needs backtracking), and a Scheme interpreter and compiler 17:57:35 bougyman: don't feed the troll. 17:57:45 edlinde: it implements those in CL 17:57:45 sorry, just arrived. 17:57:48 np 17:57:56 okie 17:58:14 edlinde: There are some packages that do CPS conversion of lisp code, but Common Lisp does not have full continuations (like scheme does) 17:58:14 I am just a bit confused as to when they should be used and when not to use them 17:58:35 You should use continuations if you want to be absolutely sure that your program runs as slow as possible. 17:58:36 hmm 17:58:39 edlinde: dwarfs appreciate them, when they dig for gold 17:58:49 hehe 17:59:01 if you are not interested in making your program slow, or you're not doing web stuff, continuations might have very little value. 17:59:03 to me it sounded like a pain in the butt concept 17:59:31 edlinde: should have called that dis-continuations 17:59:36 -!- benny` is now known as benny 17:59:38 well the examples we had in the lecture were not really something I thought you could ONLY do with continuations and nothing else 17:59:55 the CSP style looks really convoluted to me 18:00:09 as an example what you can do with continuations check amb operator, it is amazing 18:00:11 it's an interesting concept. You can implement a lot of different control-flow mechanisms on top of these things -- they just complicate the implementation, slow down your program, confuse your users, and, most of the time (afaict) get very little done that you can't just achieve with catch/throw, block/return-from, tagbody/go. 18:00:16 but unfortunately its part of the curriculum ... so got to get the concept of it 18:00:51 killerstorm: whats the amb operator? 18:01:06 if you're interested in backtracking check out Screamer 18:01:10 google for it 18:01:52 adeht: ah its just that the prof mentioned backtracking as one of the applications for csp and then never showed how it could be done on say a search tree 18:02:14 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-95-140.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:14 he had an example where he would get all permutations of a given list 18:02:24 does this really need backtracking? 18:02:47 fancy feature is that it goes against normal control flow of a program 18:02:49 edlinde: backtracking by itself is a very simple concept.. 18:03:01 so you can express program in a natural way 18:03:14 while normal (non-continuation) programming language won't allow that 18:03:18 -!- Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 18:03:24 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.37.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:03:47 http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/bbnexcerpts.txt common lisp and continuations 18:03:58 I don't appreciate beng refed as a troll sykopomp 18:04:33 edlinde: do you know how to write a depth-first search function? 18:04:37 republican_devil: those aren't actual continuations 18:04:42 edlinde: if you do, then you've implemented backtracking 18:05:07 adeht: I know how to do it in ML and Haskell :) 18:05:30 DFS shouldn't be too bad in lisp I would assume 18:05:30 e.g. without continuations you either need to use threads (a thread for each context, such as network connection) or you'll have to implement context handling yourself 18:05:36 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 18:05:51 interesting 18:05:57 while with continuations you can hide all this complexity under the hood and express program in the most natural way 18:06:04 sykopomp: continuations don't have to be slow! 18:06:09 kmurph79 [~kmurph79@71-92-238-138.static.trlk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:20 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:06:33 delimited, explicit, monadic continuations are a beautiful thing! 18:06:50 so you guys think the chapter on continuations in "On Lisp" is the best resource to understanding them and CPS as well? 18:07:04 edlinde: no, not by far 18:07:14 drewc: shiny 18:07:36 edlinde: but what _is_ the best, i'm not sure. 18:07:39 drewc: ok cool, I just heard about continuations and CSP in a lecture today and wanted to know where I could read more about them 18:08:03 drewc: I don't mind if there are few here and there... the examples where in ML 18:08:13 SML/NJ to be accurate 18:08:14 edlinde: Communicating Sequential Processes? 18:08:26 edlinde: itym CPS (continuation-passing style) 18:08:39 lemme show you guys the notes 18:08:53 if you want to understand why you need continuations at all just grab some web framework which supports them and try with and without continuations 18:09:01 you'll see that difference is huge 18:09:06 silenius [~silenus@rrcs-64-183-24-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:15 if you want to understand why continuations are nice, try to write a state machine :( 18:09:24 edlinde: you may find this article interesting: http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/continuations-web.html 18:09:47 http://www.it.uu.se/edu/course/homepage/avfunpro/ht10/notes/html/f06-cont.html 18:09:57 http://www.it.uu.se/edu/course/homepage/avfunpro/ht10/notes/html/f06-cps.html 18:10:07 the first one is continuations and the other one is for CPS 18:10:17 I wasn't sure if the examples were the best ones really 18:10:17 uppsala suger 18:10:20 just saying 18:10:32 schmrkc: yep 18:10:34 ;) 18:10:47 edlinde: I know a guy in Uppsala. Pelle. Maybe you know him? 18:10:50 they are heavy on MP here 18:10:52 he's into IT 18:11:02 Nah haven't heard of him 18:11:07 is he teaching? 18:11:12 oh gosh. erlang syntax. how I love thee. 18:11:21 yep 18:11:22 nah. he's mostly getting drunk it seems. 18:11:28 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:11:34 well then I should know him :) 18:11:39 looks like Erlang 18:11:50 it is 18:11:56 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:00 but what do you guys think of the content? 18:12:18 *schmrkc* couldn't be bothered to read it :) 18:12:40 -!- tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:18ea:25f6:bed1:7141] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:12:45 fair enough... just wanted someone to give it a skim 18:13:00 drewc: you seem to like continuations... what did you suggest for reading? 18:13:37 http://72.249.76.121/ down? 18:13:44 ^ why 18:14:28 I run demo locally, but is there something interesting there ^ ? 18:15:15 Continuations are a very powerful tool, and can be used to implement both multiple processes and nondeterministic choice. 18:15:23 thats what On Lisp says about continuations 18:15:41 no need to quote, we know this by heart 18:16:16 syntard: I was testing you ;) 18:16:43 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@61.99.46.4] has joined #lisp 18:18:01 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:18:16 -!- xan_ [~xan@18.111.46.149] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:19:41 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-178-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:19:45 jdz [~jdz@87.4.39.205] has joined #lisp 18:20:44 -!- phrixos [~miar1@194.66.0.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:21:11 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:22:05 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:22:13 phrixos [~miar1@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:23:07 quantum [~nurlan@109.127.22.100] has joined #lisp 18:25:23 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:27:59 xan_ [~xan@18.111.46.149] has joined #lisp 18:28:24 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:17 -!- killerstorm [c3e19c84@gateway/web/freenode/ip.195.225.156.132] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:30:43 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:31:22 gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-36-142-208.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:49 -!- gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-36-142-208.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:33:55 devinus_ [~devinus@65.107.181.222.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:18 -!- devinus_ [~devinus@65.107.181.222.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:35:40 devinus_ [~devinus@65.107.181.222.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:36 joe3 [~joe@c-24-126-150-146.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:43 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:09 interesting read: "Art of Unix Programming" - http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/index.html 18:39:07 -!- chewbranca [~chewbranc@c-24-18-241-128.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:18 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:40:45 joe3: Is there a Lisp connection? 18:41:02 -!- devinus_ [~devinus@65.107.181.222.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:33 Xach: Written by the guy who said "learn Lisp even if you never use it". 18:41:38 Xach: So ... not really, no. 18:41:54 the book is mostly about keeping things simple and the more I get into lisp, the more I appreciate that concept. 18:42:18 Xach: I disagree with that comment about "learn lisp even if you never use it" 18:42:40 but, cannot trash everything in the book based on that one comment? 18:42:58 joe3: You should have a look at http://simson.net/ref/ugh.pdf too. 18:43:01 :) 18:43:11 Present an interestingly different perspective on Unix. 18:43:15 +s 18:43:26 is it still September or something? 18:44:39 Odin: seems to be an interesting read. will get to it.. 18:45:05 joe3: fascinating, do tell us more 18:45:13 Interesting and _funny_. 18:45:22 Which is not common in tech works. :p 18:45:26 Odin-: so long 18:46:12 *syntard* hates long unix-haters handbooks 18:46:42 syntard: read it, you might learn something 18:46:51 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@host230.190-3-1.static.telmex.net.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 18:47:01 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:47:17 drewc: me, learn? hah! *knock knock* 18:47:47 -!- republican_devil [~g@pool101.bizrate.com] has left #lisp 18:48:10 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:49:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:49:26 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Quit: class] 18:50:31 syntard: who's there? 18:51:24 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 18:51:25 OliverUv: that's the point, nothing here 18:51:27 "Ida" "Ida who?" "Ida wanna" 18:52:40 nyef: why is this funny? 18:52:54 Most knock-knock jokes aren't. 18:53:39 *syntard* remembers "Knock knock. Who's there? Go F**k yourself " 18:55:11 *schmrkc* scrolls back looking for lisp talk 18:55:48 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:55:52 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:56:01 Ok, I'm puzzled about how sb-grovel is meant to work. It dies with an error if the CC environment variable is not set, and says "This should be set during build". But if a third-party library wants to use sb-grovel, that's not during build, so should it set CC manually in some way? 18:56:14 There is only one library that I can find that actually uses sb-grovel, and it fails. 18:56:40 -!- quantum [~nurlan@109.127.22.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:57:47 *syntard* glad to hear something lispy again, however unportable 19:01:10 Xach: CC should always be set 19:01:28 fe[nl]ix: By what mechanism? 19:01:36 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:39 setenv 19:02:04 fe[nl]ix: Who is responsible for ensuring it is always set? 19:02:09 generally, it's expected that the user do that in the shell .rc file 19:02:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:15 knock knock 19:03:23 -!- slyrus__ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:31 The error says this: "The CC environment variable has not been set in SB-GROVEL. Since this variable should always be set during the SBCL build process, this might indicate an SBCL with a broken contrib installation." 19:03:49 wasn't it legal to use `which cc` if CC isn't found? 19:04:00 If the user is meant to set CC, the error message could be more helpful in instructing the user about that requirement. 19:04:08 p_l|uni: that would be nice of sb-grovel 19:04:09 syntard: OK, I'll bite. I almost finished the test suite for the cons-high module of SICL. Once finished, this test suite will allow me to restructure the code of the module according to my latest ideas. After that, I just have to include English condition reporters and English docstring, and the module is out the door. 19:04:56 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-159.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:05:10 fe[nl]ix: the standard name is there for a reason 19:05:19 *syntard* scrolls up 19:05:30 CC is for user to specify the compiler *he/she* wants 19:07:36 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-77-249.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:07:40 fe[nl]ix: If I didn't already know what you told me, how might I find it out (aside from asking on IRC)? 19:07:54 beach: that's great. It'll be useful in any condition 19:09:14 Xach: it's "common" *nix knowledge 19:09:18 maybe even in POSIX 19:09:33 ... News to me, but then, I don't use sb-grovel anyway. 19:10:18 Now, I could see it being a parameter to override the default, but there still should /be/ a default. 19:12:47 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.118] has joined #lisp 19:14:12 and cffi-grovel gets it right by having that default. Just imagine if every iolib user would have to set CC first. 19:14:53 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host98-180-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:14:55 yes, you're right 19:15:03 konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 19:15:11 *Xach* wonders how to word the launchpad 19:17:06 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:25 nyef: actually, there's a standard defining the name of a compiler that *has* to be on a unix system 19:18:28 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:18:34 namely, c99 19:18:53 "cc"? 19:19:25 Xach: «sb-grovel should default to "cc" if CC is undefined» 19:19:26 And then, of course, "Standards are wonderful..." 19:20:03 actually, it should default to c99 according to POSIX and XSI. The difference is that compiler is optional on POSIX system, while XSI requires its presence 19:20:04 And also the whole attitude that standards are there to be honored in the breach. 19:21:25 for POSIX, there's a run-time config variable to be queries 19:21:31 *queried 19:22:09 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:15 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:56 -!- chupish [182e16d7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.22.215] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:26:38 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:27:46 anyone headed to nyclisp tonight? 19:28:32 yan_: I wish, but no. 19:30:02 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:30:25 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 19:31:01 *Xach* creates https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/672713 19:31:41 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@61.99.46.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:32:46 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:33:42 yan_: I may go. 19:36:01 If a function is declaimed with an ftype, will SBCL compile a call to that function as if it had been called as (the declaimed-return-type (foo (the declaimed-arg-type arg) ...))? 19:39:56 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:40:05 LiamH: I believe that's what the standard calls for, yes. 19:40:23 is there anyway to make my object respond appropriately when an argument to equalp/equal 19:40:36 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:40:40 Per either the specification of the FUNCTION type-specifier, or the FTYPE declaration. 19:40:44 bobbysmith007: Not really. 19:41:05 Xach: *sigh*... thanks that was what I thought, kinda hoped I was just ignorant 19:41:08 bobbysmith007: The only appropriate response is to compare object identity (the pointer). 19:41:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:41:57 nyef: I was under the impression that a compiler is free to ignore any or all declarations. So I guess my question is, would those declarations (in either form) result in faster code under some (or all?) speed declarations? 19:42:26 bobbysmith007: Beyond that, depending on what you're doing, you might try "interning" the objects so that if you try to create two with the same combination of attributes it gives you the same object twice. 19:42:38 LiamH: Sure, sure. And SBCL does take advantage of knowing the ftype. 19:42:47 nyef: thanks, might be what I need to do 19:43:23 gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-36-142-208.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:36 bobbysmith007: What sort of objects, anyway? 19:44:12 nyef: OK. I guess disassembling will confirm at least a shorter set of instructions. 19:44:13 Polynomials? GUIDs? Something like that? 19:44:15 stassats`, concerning recent changes in CommonQt: I've added some rt-based tests and noticed that marshalling QLists doesn't work in some cases and isn't bidirectional in most cases. Tried to fix it... 19:44:17 nyef: clsql:datetimes 19:44:25 Eek. 19:44:35 Yeah, that fits the pattern. 19:44:43 nyef: it seems like equalp is working correctly, so I think that perhaps I just need to change my hashtable to equalp 19:45:34 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:46:08 You might find http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/lh-guid.lisp to be of interest, at least the bits prior to the "Alien type definition" section. 19:47:01 It shows how to do the basic interning stuff in SBCL. 19:47:15 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 19:50:27 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:51:15 stassats`: as the result, I've fixed marshalling/unmarshalling of QString and QLists of int, QByteArray, QVariant, QObject*. I've surveyed Qt class methods for QList usage and noticed that there aren't that many different element types used, plus unmarshaller-2 doesn't work for primitive types. 19:52:47 stassats`: another problem is that C++-side code for QList and QList doesn't seem to be sufficient to handle all QLists (e.g. imagine QByteArray destructor being invoked on an int), so I replaced the dynamic unmarshalling code with 'static' one (plus added some marshalling code) 19:53:58 (Anywhere, really. The possibly-SBCL-specific bit is the arguments to MAKE-HASH-TABLE and the alien-type stuff at the bottom.) 19:54:25 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:56:57 -!- joe3 [~joe@c-24-126-150-146.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:58:07 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-95-140.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:59:06 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 19:59:49 Oh. And a pile of stuff in INTERN-GUID. Oops. 19:59:52 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 19:59:52 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 19:59:52 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 20:00:14 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:03:38 Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-184.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:06:58 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 20:07:19 ivan4th: yes, i saw your changes, the problem is that they don't work on my code, QObject subclasses aren't unmarshalled 20:07:28 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-77-249.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:07:35 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:07:47 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-23-214.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:08:34 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-084-061-241-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:10:02 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:10:53 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 20:13:53 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:14:08 homie: Still having problems with docutils and cmucl? I can't reproduce your results. Can you go over them step by step? 20:14:57 rtoym: i can yes, wait i'm just copying my external-formats to the cmucl/i18n/external-formats folder 20:15:23 they were not pulled in with cvs, or they are not provided as such i don't know 20:15:58 homie: cvs certainly has them. c-l.net binaries should have them. 20:16:04 i mean to build a new version, not for the current unicode-aware version of cmucl i already have 20:16:32 ok then maybe i should really just use lowercase letters for my CVS repos 20:16:32 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-91.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:17:00 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A33BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:17:21 petter` [~user@217.118.44.36] has joined #lisp 20:17:26 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:20:24 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:20:47 stassats`: you mean stuff like QList? 20:21:05 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:22 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 20:21:44 gonzojive_ [~red@c-98-207-157-93.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:46 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:22:04 homie: Don't really understand what you're saying, but that's for another day. What are you doing that makes docutils not work? 20:22:07 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:48 i start lisp with -noinit -nositeinit then load my quicklisp/setup.lisp then require docutils, and at some point it 20:23:48 throws me to the debugger with the bespoken error 20:24:02 -!- gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-36-142-208.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:24:14 quantum [~nurlan@109.127.28.178] has joined #lisp 20:24:36 Ok. Let me try that, after I clear out the cache. 20:24:42 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:24:52 no other packages or so involved, nothing which could have made the reader get confused or so, it seems the problem 20:24:52 is in the package itself or my cmucl is broken in some respect..... 20:25:14 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:53 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 20:26:57 Hello 20:26:57 Huh. That doesn't work for me. But I get an error that :cl-ppcre could not be found. 20:30:39 kami`: Hi. 20:30:42 ivan4th: yes 20:31:08 homie: Ok. I had to quickload cl-ppcre and trivial-gray-streams. Now I get the error that you reported. 20:33:30 homie: I know why it was working for me before and now it's not. It's a bug in docutils. It needs to set the external format when compiling latex.lisp because latex.lisp appears to be using utf8 encoding. CMUCL defaults to :latin1 so the file can't be compiled. 20:33:57 ah 20:34:21 but my env is already set to :utf-8 20:34:33 how can i set cmucl to utf-8 ? 20:35:52 You need to do that explicitly. (set-system-external-format :utf8). Or (setf *default-external-format* :utf8) 20:36:00 stassats`: you pass this to some Qt method (which?) / get it as return value? 20:36:27 rtoym: i do that in my .cmucl-init file right ? 20:36:28 homie: The former sets the system streams to utf8 too. The latter only to newly created streams. 20:36:42 rtoym: or do i have to compile it that way ? 20:36:53 ok 20:37:01 -!- quantum [~nurlan@109.127.28.178] has left #lisp 20:37:09 homie: Yes, do that in your init. But then you can't compile docutils with -noinit -nositeinit. 20:37:14 stassats`: well, my problem seems to be that I've only checked QtCore and QtGui for most common cases... 20:37:44 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:38:06 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@nat/redhat/x-bsnycclnaosmwfco] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:38:26 ivan4th: unmarshalling 20:39:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 20:39:33 -!- aliudalius [~user@li121-165.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 20:40:15 QModelIndexList QListView::selectedIndexes () 20:40:23 and it's not a subclass of qobject, my bad 20:41:50 stassats`: well, I'll look for all QList use cases in Qt* libs and add handling for them, maybe with help of some macrology... There aren't many different QLists used anyway 20:42:13 that sounds boring! 20:42:32 -!- vandemar [spin@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:43:03 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 20:43:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 20:43:04 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:43:30 stassats`, not that boring, it's possible to quickly scan all types/methods/classes provided by smoke 20:43:39 and i don't understand "e.g. imagine QByteArray destructor being invoked on an int" part 20:44:17 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:21 why QByteArray destructor would be invoked on an int? 20:44:40 i'm not a c++ expert, so bear with me 20:45:02 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:39 stassats`, sorry, that's not actually the problem. As far as I remember you only used QList for .*_at operation. The problem is that for all other stuff, including deallocation, you used QList iirc. If you have say QList, deallocating such QList will not call QByteArray destructor and its refcounting will be broken 20:46:03 symbole [~bob@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 20:46:18 i.e. if you delete static_cast*>(something_that_is_actually_qlist_of_qbytearrays) 20:47:01 Xach: thank you for quicklisp 20:47:37 homie: But I would say it's a bug in docutils that it doesn't specify the external format when compiling the files. 20:47:41 ivan4th: i see 20:48:32 kami`: you're welcome. 20:48:34 qlists should receive more love indeed, though i don't need that currently in my code 20:48:36 rtoym: hmm, then someone should mail the maintainer or so 20:49:15 homie: I think you should. :-) I never even heard of docutils until you mentioned it. 20:49:16 efficient marshalling of qstringlist would be nice 20:50:23 Xach: is there a reason why your timer library is not yet packaged? 20:50:59 rtoym: i did not even begin to use it :), but i think i will once i get it up somehow 20:51:02 stassats`: btw, here's how to get all qlists used in Qt: (let ((names '())) (map-types #'(lambda (type) (let ((name (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "^const\\s+|[&*]+$" (qtype-name type) ""))) (when (cl-ppcre:scan "^Q.*List.*" name) (pushnew name names :test #'equal))))) names) 20:51:38 to bad c++ is such a rigid language! 20:51:55 too 20:51:58 kami`: I am not sure what to do about projects that are intentionally applicable to only one implementation. I have not chosen and used a consistant policy. 20:52:06 homie: Although it might be considered a bug that cmucl doesn't recognize your LANG or LC or whatever environment variable. 20:52:24 Xach: I see. 20:52:38 vandemar [cohen@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has joined #lisp 20:53:01 Xach: is there a public repo for timer? 20:53:05 kami`: No. 20:53:09 smoke is such a hack 20:53:16 Xach: thanks. 20:53:17 boiantz [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 20:53:31 _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 20:54:07 stassats`: well, smoke is indeed a hack, but for now it's the quickest way to make Qt bindings for CL. Besides performance & qlist fixes I think we will need some nice dynamic signal/slot support... I think I will make something along the lines of http://doc.trolltech.com/qq/qq16-dynamicqobject.html , like it's done in cl-smoke 20:55:58 -!- symbole [~bob@216.214.176.130] has left #lisp 20:56:01 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:56:05 qt itself is a hack, with its moc 20:56:32 I also started to think again about some CLOS friendliness... I wrote a simple function that uses ensure-generic-function to define gfs for every Qt method, one generic function per name - with lambda list like (obj &rest args). It takes about 1-2 seconds to define them all on my machine, along with simple method that just calls interpret-call (just to see if it works) 20:56:33 what crazy things people do just not to use CL 20:56:38 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:57:09 symbole [~user@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 20:57:41 stassats`, they think CL is that crazy language where you have to use recursion for everything and spend most time counting parentheses 20:57:47 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD96276.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4-dev] 20:58:07 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:45 ivan4th: cl-smoke generates everything at once 20:58:54 it's too slow 21:00:12 well, I didn't try cl-smoke yet (only looked at the source), perhaps I will. how long does it take it to define everything? 21:00:15 (on sbcl and on not-a-real-computer) 21:00:36 -!- Revolve [~hi@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:00:44 i tried it a long time ago, so i don't recollect 21:02:04 there is also this qt-ecl thingy 21:02:24 -!- jdz [~jdz@87.4.39.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:02:47 stassats`: eql, you mean? 21:03:00 whatever it's called 21:03:14 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010b27.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:05 pjb: thanks for mentioning firemacs! 21:04:16 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:20 sometimes i think, screw that and write GUI in C++ and provide data from Lisp 21:04:36 but that's not smug enough, so i squeeze my teeth harder 21:04:44 stassats`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116411 -- here's my clos hack. (pmclos) takes 1.22 seconds on my machine. For not-a-real-computer, it's possible to use an image with CommonQt I think 21:05:19 (you'll also need (defpackage :qt-internal)) 21:05:22 Revolve [~hi@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:15 also, commonqt in its current form expands many slow macros 21:06:27 i have some function which takes ~6 seconds to C-c C-c 21:07:17 and it's not that big, creating several classes, laying them out and connecting to signals 21:07:19 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-86-159.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:07:50 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-23-214.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:08:09 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:08:41 alright, time to get some rest 21:08:58 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:10:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:11:00 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:15 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010b27.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:13:11 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:13:35 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:15:21 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:03 p_l|uni: «for POSIX, there's a run-time config variable to be queried» which one ? 21:17:29 benny99 [~benny@g229210059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:19:08 -!- LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@183.89.135.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:19:10 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 21:19:28 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:20:02 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:46 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.1.39.125] has joined #lisp 21:22:57 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:23:29 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-150-124.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 21:26:18 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:26:31 -!- sdsds is now known as VL_ 21:26:40 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0225.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:26:52 -!- VL_ is now known as _ice 21:27:17 -!- _ice is now known as sdsds 21:27:40 fe[nl]ix: POSIX2_C_DEV <--- if present, you can call c99, usually in /usr/bin/c99 but unfortunately I haven't found info about exact path 21:27:55 (you can get it through getconf/sysconf) 21:28:20 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:28:31 nope changin case of my cvs folder did not have any effect on the create-target thing with cmucl, i can't find any 21:28:31 lisp files in external-formats folder in i18n 21:28:47 i copied over again 21:28:54 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:17 it dies not pull in and it does not copy over 21:29:23 s/dies/does/ 21:29:26 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has left #lisp 21:30:49 -!- benny99 [~benny@g229210059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:32:05 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@239-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 21:32:27 p_l|uni: that doesn't return a path here 21:33:32 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:34:22 heh, though i put (set-system-external-format :utf-8) in my .cmucl-init docutils fails again 21:34:59 is a designator an object pointer? 21:35:51 "an object that denotes another object." - "denote" seems a little vague 21:35:52 prolly 21:36:29 yates: something that can be resolved to the actually used object 21:36:45 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:55 is clhs necessarily being vague in order to avoid implementation assumptions? 21:37:01 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@239-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:37:04 "function designator" - a function or a global symbol's function value 21:37:30 yates: i believe all designators are specified in the spec's glossary 21:38:09 -!- boiantz [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has left #lisp 21:38:19 fe[nl]ix: it returns boolean info about availability of C compiler, which has to be callable through c99 with standard set of options 21:38:31 pmd: yes, i keep on forgetting to look there -thanks 21:38:40 POSIX2_C_DEV mean that you should be able to call c99, lex and yacc 21:39:15 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:39:19 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:41:21 i'm not understanding how to differentiate between "a function (denoting itself)" and "a function"; e.g., what's the difference between (remove-if-not #'evenp '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)) and (remove-if-not 'evenp '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)) ? 21:41:22 unfortunately, with linux distros, you can never be sure :/ 21:42:00 yates: the second won't work, as REMOVE-IF-NOT will get a SYMBOL instead of FUNCTION 21:42:45 p_l|uni: so "#'" says "take the function slot of the following symbol" ? 21:42:52 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:02 #' does 21:43:23 yates: #' is a reader macro for FUNCTION, which returns the function object associated with what was passed to it 21:44:05 ok, i think i've got it, at least sufficiently for now - thank you 21:44:14 yates: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 21:46:14 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:47:46 p_l|uni: they both work for me 21:48:11 syntard: #' and ' ? 21:48:20 yes 21:48:21 they work because it needs a function designator 21:48:54 if it's a symbol it will be coerced to a function 21:49:33 a lambda function is a function "unattached" to a symbol, right? 21:49:49 yates: it's a function without a name 21:50:21 can you pass a lambda function as the "test" parameter to remove-if-not? 21:50:37 and if so, what would the syntax look like? 21:51:04 yates: of course you can 21:51:23 :test (lambda ...) 21:52:01 (flet ((myevenp (n) (evenp n))) (remove-if 'myevenp '(1 2 3 4))) doesn't work if 'myevenp is not a symbol 21:52:25 adeht: re: "of course": how is a "function designator" the same as a "lambda function"? 21:52:33 syntard: that's because when you coerce a symbol to a function it gets the function from the function cell of the symbol 21:52:43 yates: I did not say it was the same 21:52:49 yates: (remove-if-not (lambda (item) (equal item :foo)) sequence) 21:52:53 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:53:11 well then it can't be used as the "test" parameter to remove-if-not, according to clhs 21:53:45 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:54:22 syntard: Wait, does that even work /at all/? 21:54:38 *drewc* will let someone else pick up the clue stick and do some beating 21:54:52 adeht: I was reading without seeing: of course value cell, function cell... 21:54:57 Symbols as function designators are only resolved in a null lexical context. 21:55:00 yates: nitpickingly, there's no such thing as a "lambda function".. there's a lambda expression, which may be evaluated and result in a function 21:55:27 nyef: if I (defun myevenp ...) it'll work 21:55:47 adeht: there, however, a lambda macro, if we want to confuse the issue more :P 21:55:49 adeht: i'm ok with that 21:55:53 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-86-159.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:55:59 there is* 21:56:02 i support nit-picking :) 21:56:20 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-55-185.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:56:22 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-140-37.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:56:35 there are also macros in CL that accept lambda _expressions_, specifically. 21:56:47 and will break if you try and pass them references to functions, or such. 21:56:51 those are the best. 21:57:11 syntard: For some definitions of "work". It wouldn't pull the FLET version of the function, though. 21:57:11 maybe this is just semantics, but i don't really see the need for the word "designator" - why not just call it a "function". "test---a function of one argument that returns a generalized boolean." 21:57:27 it seems like that's what you are passing with the lambda expression 21:57:34 nyef: of course 21:57:40 sykopomp: those accept function names 21:57:40 I have no idea why that was ever considered a good idea. 21:57:58 adeht: :report? 21:58:55 i.e., the "function", not a "function designator". 21:58:59 oh, it seems to accept a symbol or string. 21:59:01 sykopomp: if you mean the define-condition one, admittedly it doesn't take a function name, but either a symbol or a lambda expression 21:59:20 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-98-207-157-93.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 21:59:27 now why was this ever considered a Good Idea? 21:59:46 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:00:19 yates: designators are a kind of lookup, really. keep this in mind 22:01:02 sykopomp: I suppose it's mostly a matter of style 22:01:06 yates: i gave you the "function designator" example, see the glossary for "class designator" and "pathname designator" to get the hang of it 22:01:18 pmd: where's the lookup in the lambda expression form drewc gave? 22:01:51 adeht: you mean bad taste and lack of consistency. 22:01:53 yates: of course it's semantics -- programming language semantics. you can take a look at the clhs glossary to determine what a "function designator" is 22:02:00 s/lack of consistency/inconsistency/ 22:02:05 (remove-if-not (lambda (item) (equal item :foo)) sequence) 22:02:09 sykopomp: no, because I don't think it's bad taste 22:02:32 adeht: you can't even provide it macros that expand into a lambda. 22:02:41 imo, that smells like poo. 22:03:06 as if being unable to pass first-class objects representing the reporter function to it wasn't bad enough. 22:03:31 adeht: when evaluated, does this produce a function or a function designator? (lambda (item) (equal item :foo)) 22:03:31 yates: the macro (lambda args ...) expands to #'(lambda args ...), which is the same as (function (lambda args ...)); function is a special operator that creates closures when given lambda expressions 22:03:37 I think the whole :report thing is pretty bad however.. but we all knew CL wasn't perfect 22:03:47 so, the lambda example actually passes a function 22:04:05 adeht: and I'm wondering who the heck thought this would be a good idea. It must have been done for a reason. 22:04:20 don't even get me started on make-method-lambda and friends 22:04:33 yates: a function designator is simply a union of types 22:04:52 adeht: that doesn't sound like an answer to my question 22:05:05 yates: geez. the answer to your question is in the clhs glossary 22:05:07 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:05:23 :report soldier! 22:05:28 drewc: I am starting to read the Continuations chapter in On Lisp and its hard to get the examples in Scheme.. have you got any other ideas as to how I can grasp this concept? 22:05:40 yates: ok, pretend common-lisp is very strict about its accepted arguments, then add handy lookups named designators 22:06:03 edlinde: http://community.schemewiki.org/?call-with-current-continuation jfgi? 22:06:12 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:06:31 yates: adeht is right, see the glossary and follow references, you'll learnd alot from it if you pay attention 22:06:41 thanks sykopomp .. will read through it 22:06:54 edlinde: i've got a half finished attempt at a simple explanation here : http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/continuations.html 22:06:58 urandom__ [~user@p548A6AAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:27 edlinde: it stops just when it gets interesting, but it is a different take from most introductions i've seen. 22:07:46 ok cool .. will check it out and see if I get the hang of it 22:07:58 but you go into Monads in the end? 22:08:18 continuations are the continuations of closures 22:08:21 edlinde: nope, not really. 22:08:27 lol 22:08:31 ok 22:08:37 a chain of closures 22:08:59 maybe I should then first read up on closures? 22:09:05 jup 22:09:11 would that help in understanding how continuations work? 22:09:17 jup 22:09:29 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-95-140.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:42 does scheme have dynamic scope variables? 22:09:53 pmd: of a sort, see fluid-let 22:10:03 also dynamic-wind 22:10:07 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:10:13 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:47 Racket has Parameters. I think they serve the same purpose? 22:12:16 *drewc* is not as famliar with Racket as he should be 22:14:01 drewc: is that thread-safe? 22:16:32 ok, my question comes in this sense: what do continuations do for special/dynamic variables? should they also capture them? 22:17:01 -!- kmurph79 [~kmurph79@71-92-238-138.static.trlk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: kmurph79] 22:18:33 pmd: There should be a mechanism to capture the dynamic environment, but i'm don't think it should be captured automatically as a default. 22:19:09 and the dynamic environment, as well as the continuations, should be delimited in some form, imo. 22:19:43 and i'm not convinced one needs continuations as a language feature. 22:20:11 drewc: i agree 22:20:16 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755e58.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:29 drewc: I don't get what it is 'full' continuations can do that's so desirable that delimited continuations can't handle. 22:21:14 sykopomp: if you had full continuations in CL, you could define a function that returns a hash-table iterator function 22:21:31 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-90-15.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:38 sykopomp: realistically, i'm not convinced myself 22:22:03 the advantage to full continuations is the the entire language is taking part. 22:22:17 the disadvantage is that the entire language is taking part. 22:22:18 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:22:26 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:22:29 drewc: You can have that with composable continuations if you implement them at a low enough level, though, no? 22:23:26 sykopomp: well, yes, but once you get low enough you are essentially implementing full continuations, non? 22:23:42 how would one define a function name? 22:23:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-179.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:03 drewc: I don't know. 22:24:25 drewc: Having full participation of a language would be nice, though. 22:24:30 yates: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/glo_f.html#function_name 22:24:31 (defun my-funct () (blah)(blah)(blah))? 22:24:35 it makes the process a whole lot smoother. 22:26:14 drewc, adeht, pmd, et al.: here's my problem: it appears that clhs, and the lisp community, are inconsistent in their terminology 22:26:23 yates: that's how you define a global function, the ones you can pass by name to mapcar, reduce and alike. see `flet' and `labels' for local functions 22:26:45 yates: elaborate 22:26:58 yates: that's life, we weren't born knowing things... living and learning 22:27:05 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:27:36 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 22:27:45 yates: the clhs is quite consistent, given that it's a standard. What are you having trouble understanding? 22:27:54 but damn, clhs is more consistent than any portion of the MSDN, and MSDN is quite good 22:28:00 e.g.: 22:28:18 the my-funct i defined above 22:28:27 what about it? 22:28:29 is my-funct a symbol name or a function name? 22:28:36 MY-FUNCT is a symbol 22:28:56 symbols are used to name functions 22:29:00 up until now, i would say "my-funct" is a name for the symbol MY-FUNCT, and the function slot contains the defined function 22:29:24 MY-FUNCT is a symbol that names a function in the function namespace. 22:29:25 the name of the symbol MY-FUNCT is "MY-FUNCT" (given default readtable-case) 22:29:45 -!- silenius [~silenus@rrcs-64-183-24-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:54 but then the definition of "function name" claims it is a function name, not a symbol name 22:30:11 function and symbol are NOT synonymous, are they (in cl)? 22:30:11 because a symbol name is the name of the symbol. 22:30:15 not a name that is a symbol. 22:30:25 a symbol is just an object. 22:30:48 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:52 yates: symbols are named by strings, functions are (usually) named by symbols 22:31:15 oh, NOW you tell me!!! :) 22:31:21 This is not a pipe. 22:31:30 confusion galore! 22:31:33 i am not smoking a pipe. 22:31:35 is there anything cooler than monads right now? 22:31:40 yates: lesson 1: a) symbols have names, b) they may have a value and c) they may have a function 22:31:42 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:31:45 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:31:45 Xach: This is not a drawing of a pipe, either. 22:31:53 -!- Revolve [~hi@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:32:29 adeht: ok, that clarification makes a lot more sense 22:32:55 pmd: yeah, i already got that a while back, and was the source of my confusion in it being called a function name 22:33:36 what's in a name? 22:33:37 I think for reasons of brevity, people sometimes say function name instead trying to be pedentic. 22:33:50 yates: e.g., try (type-of (second '(defun my-funct () ...))) 22:34:19 yates: function names can also be lists 22:34:43 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34:47 symbole: and some people prefer to be as pedantic as possible 22:34:55 adeht: "SYMBOL" 22:35:29 drewc: oh? haven't seen that one 22:35:44 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:55 yates: lesson 2: global function have names: a) a symbol `name' or b) a list `(setf name)', where name is... well, you got it... damn, this is not a classroom 22:36:01 drewc: (setf ..) ? 22:36:02 p_l|uni: (SETF FOO) 22:36:04 Revolve [~hi@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:04 (though I am probably missing what is considered "function name" for this discussion) 22:36:07 sykopomp: ahh 22:36:12 now I remember 22:36:27 I think that's the only accepted case, though? 22:36:43 pmd: i appreciate that but yea, i got that much i think 22:36:52 a few months back... 22:36:57 yates: a "function name" type would simply be (deftype function-name () '(or symbol (cons (eql setf) (cons symbol null)))) 22:37:04 pmd: localfunctions have names as well, but they are only named in the FUNCTION namespace, not the global environment 22:37:43 adeht: (cons symbol null)? 22:37:50 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:37:54 drewc: true, thanks for correctiong me. the difference is that you can use ' for global functions and you must use #' for local functions 22:37:57 sykopomp: yes 22:38:00 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:38:07 oh right. Nevermind. 22:38:31 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:44 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:45 and to speak of a 'function name' only makes sense in the context of an environment, as named-lambda is not standard. 22:39:00 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:23 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:38 drewc: the glossary contains two definitions 22:39:52 yates: so your point is simply that we're very inconsistent with the spec. well, so is my spoken english from my written english and even more so with the english dictionary and grammar 22:40:16 pmd: i don't mean to sound ungrateful - i am 22:40:21 adeht: so it does. 22:40:34 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:45 drewc: it's important because it allows you to refer to names who aren't yet bound in the environment 22:40:48 jdz [~jdz@87.4.39.205] has joined #lisp 22:40:48 *which 22:40:51 i'm just communicating my problems in grokking cl 22:41:03 which you may or may not care about... 22:41:04 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:41:07 drewc: or not even existing in the env yet 22:41:10 adeht: indeed, that is important :) 22:41:18 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:41:22 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-95-140.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:41:39 *drewc* does that all the time 22:41:53 time for miami-csi (bit-torrented) 22:41:59 afm 22:42:02 yates: you're kinda triggering some language lawyering, which probably doesn't help you too much. 22:42:02 yates: well, if you try hard to use the clhs terms, you'll fit in for sure 22:42:21 yates: the clhs also has a nice section about designators: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_dae.htm 22:43:13 sykopomp: i'm just getting lost. when you're lost, you have to put a stake in the ground and figure out where you are. 22:43:20 pmd: yeah, i'll strive more to do that 22:43:20 it's a very useful concept to have, and we should thank KMP for that :) 22:43:24 adeht: yes, i saw that 22:43:57 (for the term, actually, not the concept) 22:43:58 then they start talking about "coercing" - Ugg! 22:44:16 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:19 clhs coerce 22:44:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm 22:44:49 it also has a link to the glossary entry for "coerce" 22:44:50 fair enough 22:45:01 ok, my brain hurts 22:45:31 drewc: can I ask a question about your link? 22:45:42 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:45:44 yates: I suggest you check out the glossary for terms you have a problem with.. the glossary is a very important contribution when discussing Lisp 22:46:01 drewc: you know the part you make a transition from the variable to a lambda in your example... is that the part for which I need to understand how closures work? 22:46:12 adeht: acknowledged. 22:46:16 drewc: btw this makes much more sense to me 22:46:33 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-123-71.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:36 Fare: You were looking for me the other day? 22:46:37 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:47:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has left #lisp 22:47:54 yates: you'll find actual inconsistencies between coerce and other function when you read the spec further. please come back to discuss them when you find them out 22:48:16 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:48:32 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:48:49 edlinde: kind of. What's important with closures is that when you return a function from within another function, the /free variables/ in the returned function refer to binding in the lexical enviroment, that is to say the place where it was defined, rather then the dynamic environment, the place where it is later called. 22:49:18 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-49-187.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:49:28 drewc: I am still not clear on how closures work, so will read that first 22:50:00 drewc: are the binding forms referring to two types only -- LET and DEFUN/LAMBDA? 22:50:03 edlinde: Play with this code: (defun make-counter () (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x)))) 22:50:25 edlinde: used like this: (defparameter *counter* (make-counter)), (funcall *counter*) 22:50:43 then try (defparameter *counter2* (make-counter)), and play with that. 22:51:13 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:51:56 edlinde: it's all really LAMBDA in the end. LET can be expressed in terms of LAMBDA, and defun is really just naming a LAMBDA in the global environment. 22:51:58 sykopomp: I got an error for -- (defparameter *counter* (make-counter)), (funcall *counter*) 22:52:28 ok so behind the scenes all defun defined functions are converted to lambda functions 22:52:30 the set of binding operators is (theoretically) infinite 22:52:46 and any args of lambda are bound? 22:53:04 edlinde: did you copy-paste the comma? :( 22:53:25 edlinde: you need to define make-counter first, you know. 22:53:26 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.175.136] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:36 yeah 22:53:42 I had the comma in there too sorry 22:53:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@18.111.46.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:53:55 -!- osoleve [~andy@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:53:55 edlinde: you're supposed to -read- the code, you know. 22:53:59 edlinde: conceptually (and simplistically) you can think of defun as doing something like (setf (fdefinition ') (lambda ...)) 22:55:17 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-55-185.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:55:43 ok so multiple calls to the expression with *counter* in it returned 1 all the time 22:56:24 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-150-124.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:56:35 I would have thought the value would increment... am I wrong in assuming it would? 22:56:44 edlinde: likely you did something wrong 22:57:33 (defun make-counter () (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x)))) (defparameter *counter* (make-counter)) (assert (equal (list (funcall *counter*) (funcall *counter*)) '(1 2))) 22:57:40 edlinde: don't keep re-evaluating defparameter. ;) 22:57:53 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-46-152.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:58:31 osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:36 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: later] 22:58:38 -!- osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:58:39 ok maybe I got to read up some more on this stuff 22:58:45 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:58:49 coz I didn't get the hang of whats supposed to happen here 22:59:09 every time you (funcall *counter*), it should return one integer higher. 22:59:24 osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:36 ahh ok I kept doing just a *counter* 22:59:37 if that's not happening, you're probably re-evaluating (defparameter *counter* (make-counter)), or you copied the code wrong. 22:59:41 heh 23:00:01 it is now 23:00:14 hmm but I still need to understand why its doing that 23:00:43 make-counter has a let clause in it that sets x to 0 23:01:00 edlinde: let creates a new environment. 23:01:42 ok and whats the effect of this env creation? 23:01:46 and the function that (make-counter) returns has access to that environment, which isn't reset on every invocation of the function. 23:01:54 I mean it creates it each time we make a call to make-counter yeah? 23:02:00 rtoym: usual asdf upgrade request 23:02:04 banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has joined #lisp 23:02:20 edlinde: the function resets its -own- environment on every invocation, but it doesn't change the environment it was created in. 23:02:30 it keeps a reference to that environment, and is able to affect its contents. 23:02:36 why do the ppl on #lisp take themselves so seriously when lisp is just a hobbyist language? 23:02:42 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:02:45 inb4kb 23:02:54 *facepalm* 23:03:09 sykopomp: ok I got to think about it a bit more :) 23:03:17 sykopomp: but I think I get what you are saying 23:03:18 banisterfiend: something that manages to sell IDEs for 3600 EUR per license doesn't count as "hobbyist" 23:03:23 banisterfiend: It keeps the trolls coming.. 23:03:30 p_l|uni: don't feed the trolls. 23:03:41 (defun make-yoshi () (let ((stomach nil)) #'(lambda (&optional entity) (cond (stomach (pop stomach)) (entity (push entity stomach) nil))))) 23:04:02 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:04:03 pmd: cute. 23:04:12 CL is a conspiracy to keep the trolls from distracting the Java programmers. ;-) 23:04:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-201-226.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:04:26 sykopomp: ok when we say (lambda () (incf... ) are we returning a function there by doing that? 23:04:29 sykopomp: I had a case of Mondays, apparently, which caused me to temporarily mistake today for "be nice to animals" day. 23:04:55 edlinde: evaluating (lambda () (incf ...)) returns a function, yes. 23:05:05 sykopomp: I just remember reading someplace that there was a special syntax to do that 23:05:06 the function will reset its local environment on every invocation. 23:05:10 but it won't reset parent environments. 23:05:12 like a '# or something? 23:05:26 edlinde: LAMBDA is a macro. You don't need the #' 23:05:52 banisterfiend: i sure hope you haven't seen any lisp success stories yet 23:06:00 ok 23:06:15 sykopomp: so when do I use the #' to return? 23:06:31 sykopomp: I forgot sorry :( 23:06:38 edlinde: forget about #'. It doesn't exist in this conversation. 23:07:10 -!- isak [~isak@78-73-89-9-no169.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:07:18 actually, forget about #' until you can write a reader macro. ;p 23:07:23 yep ok I get that part 23:07:25 *sykopomp* likes pjb's advice on this matter. 23:08:01 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:08:59 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:45 referring to drewc 's last comment - whats the dynamic and lexical environment? 23:11:10 drewc: edlinde: kind of. What's important with closures is that when you return a function from within another function, the /free variables/ in the returned function refer to binding in the lexical enviroment, that is to say the place where it was defined, rather then the dynamic environment, the place where it is later called. 23:11:34 edlinde: One step at a time. 23:11:44 edlinde: dynamic vs lexical scoping is a big scary topic. 23:11:47 isak [~isak@78-73-89-9-no169.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:57 is there more to your make-counter example? 23:12:27 ah ok so this is the whole dynamic vs lexical scoping issue 23:12:41 moar code! 23:12:43 I knew the difference.. but cannot remember it correctly 23:13:05 edlinde: dynamic vs lexical scoping has to do with this, but it doesn't have much of an effect in this particular example. 23:13:07 wasn't it something about in dynamic it would pick up the LATEST value of a variable and use that? 23:13:17 yes 23:13:30 lexical scoping is more about how the code 'reads' 23:13:30 sykopomp: I think I get your explanation about why make-counter is doing what it does 23:13:30 what do ppl here think about the common lisp loop? 23:13:37 but I could be wrong :) 23:13:38 i've read some clispers hate it, is that true 23:13:48 murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has joined #lisp 23:14:13 sykopomp: how do you mean 'reads'? 23:14:37 edlinde: it's called lexical because the intent is to be able to follow what binds to what based on how the code reads, in the text file. 23:14:47 banisterfiend: it is true! 23:14:50 not on whatever the program decides to bind it to sometime during execution. 23:15:01 so basically with the make-counter example ... to get it right the first time its called it sets x to 0 in the let env - returns a lambda fn 23:15:19 edlinde: just call it a function. 23:15:26 which we call with (funcall *counter*) 23:15:31 ok cool 23:16:07 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6AAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:07 but repeated calls of this make-counter is bypassing this let somehow? 23:16:36 Xach: ah, i was reading your blog the other day...weird place, really weird. 23:16:38 it's just creating a new let :) 23:16:46 edlinde: it's creating new closures 23:17:07 banisterfiend: the internet is weird? 23:17:16 Xach: xah lee, your blog 23:17:31 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:41 hmm 23:17:59 edlinde: understand "closure" as "captured lexical environment" 23:18:19 banisterfiend: xah lee has some weird stuff on his site. I'm glad I'm not xah lee! 23:18:37 Xach: I knew that was you in Vegas! 23:18:43 for shame! 23:18:47 xah lee is a weird guy 23:18:54 -!- vandemar [cohen@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:18:56 gonzojive_ [~red@c-98-207-157-93.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-201-12.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:19:02 in his blog he said he wanted me to be his "pussy" 23:19:05 pmd: ok I think sykopomp was trying to explain this to me 23:19:14 and he had a pic of his genitalia 23:19:15 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 23:19:16 attila_lendvai, hi 23:19:17 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:21 hi 23:19:27 is this behaviour common for lisp programmers? 23:19:32 banisterfiend: I think at this point, that crossing a line for what's appropriate for the channel. 23:19:33 banisterfiend: xah lee isn't a cl programmer 23:19:41 and yes, you crossed the line 23:19:42 as if trolling weren't bad enough. 23:19:58 sorry 23:20:00 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has left #lisp 23:20:21 odd. 23:20:23 pmd: the part that confused me is that we create these let environments... but how come make-counter is retaining its previous value? 23:20:26 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:20:50 edlinde: make-counter isn't, the function it returns is 23:20:57 edlinde: think of it in terms of environment creation when you invoke something. 23:21:01 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 23:21:22 edlinde: that's why you get a new counter each time you call make-counter 23:21:34 ah so you guys are saying that the (lambda () ... ) part is the one generating a new environment? 23:21:40 yes 23:21:57 so why do we need the let? 23:21:58 er... well, no, it's capturing the environment 23:22:01 wait 23:22:11 the let ((x 0) .. bit I mean 23:22:21 edlinde: when you call (make-counter), you create an environment. Let's call it 23:22:30 ok.. 23:22:30 does a () already contain an environment ? 23:22:52 let's say is actually the environment created by (let ...) 23:22:56 so that's an environment. 23:23:05 then we evaluate (lambda ...) -inside- that environment. 23:23:06 edlinde: theorically, you don't need let; practically, it is much better to have something that just stack/register allocates variables than having to call a function 23:23:08 sykopomp: ok so the let part makes env1 23:23:10 *attila_lendvai* thinks that nowadays #lisp should be renamed to #lisp-learning 23:23:28 #lisp-tfm 23:23:29 sykopomp: yep 23:23:29 the lambda will create a new object, called a function. Every time you (funcall ...) that object, it will create its own environment, with as its 'parent' 23:23:52 that means that the function object's environment is fresh every time, but it always refers to , which persists. 23:23:53 attila_lendvai: funny how that goes in cycles. a few months ago it seemed like there were never any new visitors. 23:24:04 and that's why you see the counter increasing. 23:24:21 hmm 23:24:29 Xach: the TIOBE index shows a lisp spike for this month 23:24:30 Xach: it must be mega1's steady first position in the google ai contest... :) 23:24:45 how come the original env1 is getting bound to ALL subsequent calls of make-counter? 23:24:47 Xach: I'm thinking a few months ago was the beginning of the semester and the "functional programming" course is never at the start :) 23:24:50 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.12.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:24:51 thats what I didn't get 23:24:59 edlinde: it's not. 23:25:10 if you (make-counter) again, the environment will be 23:25:14 xan_ [~xan@18.111.46.149] has joined #lisp 23:25:21 schmrkc: it seems to me like more than simply a lot of students 23:25:28 ok I meant (funcall *counter*) sorry 23:25:29 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:38 there are two environments here: the environment that was created when (make-counter) was invoked, and then all the many sub-environments created every time (funcall *counter*) is called. 23:25:56 edlinde: that's how function calling works. It creates a new environment, with similar bindings, and executes code in -that- context. 23:26:03 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:05 attila_lendvai: mega1 == bocsimacko 23:26:06 ? 23:26:09 ok gotcha 23:26:20 Xach: could it be that a lot of people are triggered by the new book land of lisp? 23:26:50 trigen-: that seems likely 23:27:02 *schmrkc* likes new people. 23:27:03 but guys is it not a good thing that people want to learn a language like lisp? 23:27:12 edlinde: I think it is great. 23:27:20 the problem is that this channel has 320 people, and discussing basic ideas about closures in boring details is... well, boooooooring. this stuff is written down in numerous simple examples. direct questions are fine, but lenghty discussions in front of so many people? 23:27:24 given there are so many new ones around like Erlang, haskell etc etc 23:27:24 -!- fragione [~fragione@bzq-79-179-245-24.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:27:24 pmd: yes 23:27:32 edlinde: It's nice if they are not obnoxious and adamantly ignorant. 23:27:34 edlinde: I think it's more that people expect newbies to be more self-reliant. 23:27:39 fragione [~fragione@bzq-79-179-245-24.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:52 attila_lendvai: You're welcome to close the window. 23:28:02 ^ 23:28:11 Xach: are you referring to me ? :) 23:28:30 perhaps we should not talk in #lisp unless it's about topics that attila_lendvai has not already mastered. 23:28:38 edlinde: You have serious problems with reading comprehension, but you seem to make progress eventually. 23:28:48 hehe 23:28:51 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:28:57 edlinde: back when we learnt lisp we had to build a computer from scratch and invent ()'s. and they were only one time keys on the keyboards so we hade to go out and hunt for a new keyboard to get ('s and )'s. we ddn't have none of these luxuries people have now. 23:28:58 yeah it was the quicklisp incident 23:28:59 :) 23:29:16 hehe 23:29:16 edlinde: In general, people here will think of you better if you go read a book and try really hard to understand it from -there-, before coming to ask questions. 23:29:45 well I was about to read about closures when someone just started explaining it to me 23:29:47 I explained closures because I feel like it's something that's a little hard to get your head wrapped around. 23:29:51 *osoleve* is away: Gone away for now 23:29:56 edlinde: we're an elitist bunch here you see. 23:29:56 so I thought I would have a listen first and then read it 23:30:07 osoleve: No need to announce it. 23:30:21 it's just raw noise here nowadays more often then it used to be... if you disagree, or don't care, then we don't need to convince each other. but I've thought I'll rise my voice while Xof and other more effective moderators are absent 23:30:23 yeah I know you guys must be using lisp for ages 23:30:34 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:31:05 edlinde: If only it were one incident. Carelessness when others are kindly offering time and patience is seriously rude. 23:31:06 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-98-207-157-93.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 23:31:08 sykopomp: but thanks for taking the time to explain this stuff... its somewhat clearer now 23:31:42 Xach: Have I been careless? I don't get it 23:31:53 schmrkc: it's not about elitism... but about considering the 320 other people listening and their resons they are on the channel. 23:32:11 ah well 23:32:22 attila_lendvai: I was kidding about the elitism. 23:32:34 your limits are 10 minutes usually 23:32:37 lol 23:32:45 edlinde: again, direct conscise questions are welcome. lengthy discussion about trivial lisp stuff is less so 23:32:46 i'm really impressed by the performance of mega1's ai, it's 1st by almost 200 score difference! 23:32:57 I wonder if people would rather read conversations about closures, or conversations about other people having conversations that not all 320 may want to read. 23:33:11 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:33:13 edlinde: closures are common in functional programming languages. I'd think that course you are in would explain it somewhere :) 23:33:40 sykopomp: I'd rather have you explain things in a nice way than a dead channel :) 23:34:00 pmd: There was some concern that it wasn't facing tough enough competition. 23:34:03 -!- V-ille [~ville@ville-hp.dhcp.fnal.gov] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:34:07 if it gets dull I switch to somewhere. maybe even get work done :O 23:34:20 schmrkc: Lisp-style closures are more uncommon than you'd think. 23:34:21 nah they haven't taught it... but we suddenly got thrown into continuations and CPS etc.. so I need to get the hang of closures first 23:35:18 sykopomp: What's the uncommon part about them? 23:35:23 schmrkc: languages that don't allow reassignment of variables don't support them the same way (such as Haskell). Other languages get the read part working, but can't quite do writing, even though they technically allow updating bindings (Python) 23:36:06 other languages don't allow implicit updating of parent bindings (kernel, prototype-based languages) 23:36:35 well obviously things are never exactly the same everywhere 23:36:42 so as 'right' as Lisp/Scheme's treatment of closures seems, there's plenty of cases out there of 'closures' that don't quite work the same way. 23:36:45 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:36:50 just saying closures are not an uncommon thing. 23:37:48 schmrkc: javascript closures, however, seem quite like lisp's 23:38:47 (err, s/schmrkc/sykopomp/) 23:39:17 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 23:41:14 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 23:42:35 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-222.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:45:37 pmd: afaik 23:46:12 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:49:38 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:54:03 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has quit [Quit: superflit] 23:56:31 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:57:06 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]