00:00:09 nizze_: It sounds like marketing copy ;P 00:00:12 <`3b> it means it is off-topic :p (#clojure knows about clojure stuff, not us) 00:01:01 -!- timack [~tim@142.177.11.100] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:01:03 <`3b> (but more generally, it probably means it looks like lisp, but you can't run any old lisp code on it) 00:01:16 Hexstream: CL must be refactored alot. All these years and no technical debt? 00:01:36 3b: I looked at clojure code, and it didn't look very much like the Lisp I know :) 00:01:40 `3b: They cannot answer to that. 00:01:54 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.185] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:02:00 nizze_: ?... not sure what you're alluding to exactly. 00:02:12 it means it doesnt have the negative image Lisp has because it got a new name. 00:02:13 so how am I to specify that I'm updating something deep? 00:02:33 Fare: nested updatef. 00:02:46 (update-accessor (x) (car (cdr x)) 1) ? 00:02:59 Hexstream: Well, as software grows old it gets all sorts of warts. You have to refactor to get rid of those. How does current CL differ from the '80s CL? 00:03:03 Common Lisp has no fatal flaws that I'm aware of. Anything "lackings" it has can usually be implemented as a library, unless it needs to be in the implementation itself, and good implementations such as SBCL have lots of useful extensions to the standard... 00:03:30 <`3b> nizze_: CL hasn't changed since it was standardized... the ecosystem has evlolved though (asdf is one example, quicklisp another) 00:03:34 meh. I think you really do want to update deeply, and even setq variables. 00:03:34 nizze_: I don't know, I was born in 1986 and I'm no historian ;P 00:03:41 I've only been lisping for about 4 years. 00:03:47 pkhuong_, problem is, the nesting is reversed 00:04:01 What do the Schemers mean when they say that CL is too bloated? 00:04:20 [01:15] nizze: and I think you're trolling. 00:04:32 timack [~tim@142.177.11.100] has joined #lisp 00:04:32 nizze_: it means scheme has different motives behind it's standardization 00:04:46 They mean they'd rather have an elegant but impractical language than a language a bit less elegant but way more comprehensive? 00:05:25 adeht: Questioning your religion is not same as trolling. 00:05:28 (updatef (x #((a 1) (b 2) (c 3))) (car (aref x 1)) 'd) ? 00:05:59 ==> #((a 1) (d 2)(c 3)) 00:06:02 adeht: I'm bit skeptical about CL 00:06:05 i wouldn't say scheme is impractical, just that cl and scheme are aimed at different directions and different user profiles 00:06:06 how much would i have bet that the 'religion' troll would show itself... what is with that one? 00:06:13 nizzle: you're a bit of an idiotic, too 00:06:19 nizze_, they mean they haven't read the R7RS. 00:06:23 *idiot 00:07:15 Fare: that is also true :) 00:07:39 Fare: "We're gonna need a bigger index!" :) 00:07:47 if we would change the "7" with "6" it would still be true 00:08:12 adeht: What makes me an idiot? 00:08:32 nizze: that is a question for biologists 00:09:14 nizze_: ok, you should understand that every day several people come here asking why cl is bloated after reading some article, so what makes you idiot is in fact the person who ask the same question before you 00:09:14 Then who are you to define me? 00:09:31 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@61.48.71.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:09:37 we're on the lisp religion today again? 00:09:39 kenanb: Thanks. I did not realize that. 00:09:53 nizze_: Some might think you're asking about old oft-rehashed annoying topics more than is expected for someone who wouldn't be trolling. 00:09:57 kenanb: I thought that CL is not the cool kid and does not draw too much attention. 00:10:11 nizze_: i don't mean you are an idiot, i mean that there is a reason for these people to start getting angry at these questions 00:10:12 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has joined #lisp 00:10:28 ahaney3 [~user@adsl-150-238-41.tys.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:48 kenanb: I understand. 00:10:53 CL is a programming language, not a person, not a religion, not a silver bullet. People use it because they find it makes programming easier. 00:11:01 drewc: (update (car (aref (updating #((a b) (c d))) 2)) 'e) ==> #((a b) (c d) (e nil)) ? 00:11:41 Fare: now, do you want to default to setq on variables? 00:12:03 no, no setq - the whole point is that it should be pure 00:12:08 I red this one http://landoflisp.com/ and it sold CL to me as "the most amazing thing evar" a language that is better than all others combined 00:12:28 the thing is cl is neither, there are some theory fanatics who keep telling that cl is bloated, there are some business fanatics who tell that lisp is useless and since cl is the most popular lisp 00:12:32 cl is useless 00:12:34 but it is pure, unless the binding is closed over. 00:12:35 alright so this may not be the appropriate place to ask this question but as I understand I can (setq foo (lambda (bar) (* bar 2))) and the variable foo will be set to a function correct? 00:12:45 so cl suffers from being neither 00:12:49 ahaney3: right. 00:13:03 alright, here's the stupid question, is there something similar in python? 00:13:07 it is just a good programming language, not perfect, but not bloated, not useless, very good 00:13:33 *Fare* wonders about abawden's quasiquote idea - then it would be (update `(car (cdr ,'(1 2 3))) 4) ==> (1 4 3) 00:13:35 ahaney3: yes, but anonymous functions in python can only contain a single statement; if you want anything larger, you must name it first. 00:13:37 because I'm working on a project where it would be very convenient to have a list of functions that can be defined in a conf file and then iterate over the list passing the functions as arguments to another funciton 00:14:04 #python would know. 00:14:30 alright, I just figuered I'd ask the lispers first before I received strange looks from them lol 00:14:33 thanks 00:14:54 pixel__ [~pixel@p4FC54A34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:08 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-93-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:15:10 ahaney: you can defined named functions, then put them in a list. 00:15:24 kenanb: Thanks for being nice :) I got bit obsessed about CL after reading PG's essays 00:15:47 *drewc* nods smugly to himself 00:16:07 drewc: can you nod smugly to me too pls 00:16:25 Fare: i kind of like the quasiquote idea 00:16:25 drewc, you can't beat kenny at smugness, you know 00:16:28 (but dont make eye contact) 00:17:08 Fare: we all need something to aspire to :) 00:17:18 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@131.104.9.229] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:18:49 nizze_: np, in fact you'll see that even people who draws an aggressive profile are willing to answer when the questions show the willing to learn. 00:18:54 easiest way to recurse: go through the first arg and if it's a known accessor, recurse. 00:19:59 other way to recurse: find the (updating ) quasiquote-like, and there better be only one, and make that the thing to return updated. 00:20:06 -!- ahaney3 [~user@adsl-150-238-41.tys.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 00:20:16 (or equivalently, find the bound variable) 00:20:51 give a depth argument, recursing through the first arguments. 00:21:06 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21:27 I'm off to bed now. Thank you guys. (Even the one which called me an idiot) 00:21:35 -!- nizze_ [~nisse@cs78250198.pp.htv.fi] has left #lisp 00:22:03 who was that? jesus? "even the one who called me an idiot"... 00:22:11 I guess the way to decide is to rewrite a few imperative algorithms in functional style and see what works best... 00:22:23 pixel__: i don't think it was jesus 00:22:25 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:31 drewc: no shit 00:22:42 Fare: ime, for that, it's either allowing assignment to locals, or tail recursion everywhere. 00:23:01 pixel__: :D 00:23:20 pkhuong_, so the updatef things would typically be as arguments to the tail call. 00:23:29 right. 00:23:37 or as something bound in a monad 00:24:25 ... something like a local binding. 00:26:13 the next thing would be writing a generic updatef protocol for updating the slots of a struct or a class 00:27:28 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:32 which I suppose means a protocol for extracting initargs to copy an instance, or something. 00:27:49 though going through keywords would be... yuck 00:29:45 (let ((x '(1 2 3)) (let-update ((x (car (cdr x)) 4)) x)) ==> (1 4 3) ? 00:31:12 (defstruct foo a b) (updatef (foo-a (make-foo :a 1 :b 2)) 3) ==> #S(FOO :A 3 :B 2) ? 00:32:19 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 00:33:31 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:00 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-91-40.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:34:09 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-243.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:34:59 of course, recursing going through the first argument isn't friendly to IPS 00:37:34 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:08 -!- kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 00:39:13 *Fare* wonders if with monads, updatef, and linearity, one could write a single algorithmic specification that can work as either efficient imperative datastructure or pure persistent datastructure. 00:41:47 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:42:05 g'night folks, bedtime 00:42:16 -!- kenanb [~user@95.14.60.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:53 pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:55 -!- pixel__ [~pixel@p4FC54A34.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ouch...fsck] 00:43:56 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:48:14 pixel__ [~pixel@p4FC54A34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:44 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has left #lisp 00:50:05 fatblueduck [~duck@cpe-76-87-212-113.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:39 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:52:25 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:55:28 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:55:41 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:03 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:59:49 banisterfiend [~horse@27.252.140.255] has joined #lisp 01:01:44 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@27.252.140.255] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:35 -!- lune [~claire@97.76.48.98] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:03:06 -!- rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:03:59 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:12:04 banisterfiend [~horse@27.252.140.255] has joined #lisp 01:13:01 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:16:37 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:48 -!- syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:17:27 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.35] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:18:59 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@27.252.140.255] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:19:34 -!- caelan [~caelan@65.122.173.145] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:19:40 I just begin using slime-connect from emacs 01:19:42 amazing 01:19:54 C-c C-k and BOOM! 01:19:57 updated 01:23:42 lune [~claire@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 01:24:50 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-79-82.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:25:07 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-91-40.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:27:52 grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:04 -!- grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:29:37 -!- konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:32:13 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:32:32 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:34:08 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 01:34:20 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 01:34:24 -!- xristos is now known as Guest92745 01:34:30 -!- Guest92745 is now known as xrisos 01:34:36 -!- xrisos is now known as xristos` 01:34:49 -!- xristos` is now known as xristos 01:37:35 -!- scottmaccal_ [~scottmacc@58.sub-97-171-243.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:37:35 http://www.pastebin.ca/1976792 01:37:48 -!- rme [rme@clozure-F18DE035.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 01:38:04 does anyone know of a better way of writing that code? 01:38:16 banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.227.254] has joined #lisp 01:38:53 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-143.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:39:28 fatblueduck: i can't figure out what it is you're trying to do with that code 01:39:52 haha 01:40:03 <_3b> are you maybe missing that you can pass multiple lists to mapcar? 01:40:13 *_3b* can't tell what it is trying to do either 01:40:36 (apply #'mapcar #'do-something (list (list ..) (list ..))) 01:40:46 <_3b> (list (do-something foo foo) (do-something bar bar)) ? 01:41:10 fatblueduck: do you just want (loop for (first second) in list do (do-something first second)) ? 01:41:21 adeht: drewc: yes 01:41:32 <_3b> also, use lisppaste, double spaced code is confusing :p 01:41:36 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.227.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:43:11 (mapcar (lambda (list-of-two-items) (apply #'do-something list-of-two-items)) list) 01:43:35 fatblueduck: it really depends on what it is you are actually trying to do. 01:45:12 (defun do-something-loop (list) (apply 'do-something (first list)) (when (rest list) (do-something-loop (rest list)))) 01:45:26 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:28 bonus points if you can do it using Y 01:46:12 *drewc* holds of on the implementation using the list monad 01:46:19 holds off* 01:49:13 syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:13 so should (update (car (cdr x) y) and (update (cadr x) y) be the same? 01:49:42 should reverse functions specify a position in which to recurse? 01:50:16 -!- syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:50:35 drewc: thank you i like the recursive suggestion 01:51:23 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-109-124.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:51:29 cadr is car then cdr 01:51:36 homie: wrong 01:52:00 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:52:20 i meant the form read from left to right not tied to the lisp's reading from inner parentheses to outward 01:52:46 yes actually it is the other way cdr then car 01:53:38 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-148-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:54:00 "take the car of the cdr" 01:54:52 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@stu213.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:57:12 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255942.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:51 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-103-5.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:58:44 cadr [~quassel@187.71.2.87] has joined #lisp 02:00:58 does cmu has bells ? 02:01:01 i want to ring! 02:01:05 lol 02:01:10 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255942.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:01:29 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:56 goodnight everyone 02:01:58 -!- fatblueduck [~duck@cpe-76-87-212-113.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 02:02:30 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-118-41.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:04:18 -!- cadr [~quassel@187.71.2.87] has left #lisp 02:06:50 tim0ntime [~user@cpe-67-253-127-67.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:08:48 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-97-223.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:11:12 fucking shit clsql yeah, atol64 is in my clsql_lib.so thing... 02:13:05 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:14:22 gsll gives error in cmu, with variable unbound *row-separator* or so 02:14:52 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:27 Xach: your (update-all-dists and update-client thing don't work in your beta) 02:16:00 -!- tim0ntime [~user@cpe-67-253-127-67.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:16:23 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:16:23 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 02:17:08 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 02:17:12 rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 02:17:49 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:18:19 xan_ [~xan@nttkyo516020.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:19:01 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 02:19:41 Fare: Do you have a particular book you would recommend for learning about functional/persistent data structures and their implementation (and uses)? 02:20:05 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:01 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:23:18 the classic book is Chris Okasaki's 02:23:36 I'm looking at that one on amazon, yeah. 02:24:08 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-37-148.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:24:08 it's great - and you can find his code ported to Haskell, OCaml, Typed Racket, and more. 02:24:31 wonderful. Thanks. :) 02:25:01 and if you want to port it to CL, I've done a tiny bit of work in fare-utils that might help you. 02:25:13 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-79-82.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:25:20 amazon? download for free? 02:25:42 i.e. I implemented red-black trees and patricia trees in pure functional interface passing style 02:25:56 I think you can download his phd thesis for free 02:26:04 right. 02:26:09 the book has more? 02:26:13 and the book is just a rewrite of his thesis 02:26:30 he probably improved a few things 02:26:38 cools 02:27:01 good buy anyway. It's a totally nice read and people should get rewarded :) 02:27:54 yup 02:28:20 eheh 02:31:31 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 02:32:47 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:35:35 Fare: "It's a good thing to allow variable mutation because, even though it can make concurrency trickier, it allows for faster implementations of certain algorithms in more familiar ways" strongly disagree, disagree, neutral, agree, strongly agree 02:35:37 -!- zbiback is now known as zbigniew 02:36:41 (or is there a different reason to allow variable assignment?) 02:38:31 drwho [~drwho@c-68-63-83-105.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:49 why would i get a Type-error in KERNEL::OBJECT-NOT-TYPE-ERROR-HANDLER: 02:39:49 70000 is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 16) within cmucl when loading closure-common ? 02:39:56 sykopomp: sicp argues that it allows for certain abstractions. 02:40:33 s/for/to implement/ 02:40:33 -!- xan_ [~xan@nttkyo516020.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:40:54 homie: because there's a type error here. 02:41:22 yes but is it due to cxml, closure-common or cmucl itself ? 02:41:31 check the backtrace. 02:41:32 Debug! 02:41:46 oh too late, i skipped all of them 02:45:47 sykopomp, let's distinguish mutation from VARIABLE mutation 02:46:01 Fare: I am specifically asking about variable mutation here. 02:46:07 regular old lexical variable mutation, even. 02:46:12 ML for instance only has immutable bindings, but it has explicit mutable cells 02:46:30 what's the point? 02:46:55 xan_ [~xan@nttkyo516020.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:47:23 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@120-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47:28 the point is that let's discuss mutation independently from whether *variables* are mutated 02:48:20 (and indeed the first thing any scheme compiler does is a boxing transformation, whereby any mutable variable is boxed on the heap, whereas immutable variables are stored directly in the continuation frame) 02:48:25 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 02:48:42 lemoinem [~swoog@120-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:00 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.160.101] has joined #lisp 02:49:03 so, back to mutation -- mutation allows *modular* modification of state, which is good, especially in a concurrent setting. 02:49:47 it makes difficult global serialization of state, which is a pain in the ass sometimes. 02:50:21 Fare: any scheme compiler? Not any, and I don't see that would be the case for scheme more than CL. 02:50:32 and so a good solution would be first-class stores or something to control the granularity of state. 02:50:35 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: XChat has encountered a problem and needs to close] 02:50:49 pkhuong_, because in Scheme, continuations can be invoked many times. 02:50:51 banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.81.234] has joined #lisp 02:51:44 ok, if the whole frame is heap-allocated SML/NJ style, you needn't box mutable variables. 02:52:25 although you might still want to do it to be safe-for-space if the extent of the variable differs from that of the rest of the frame. 02:53:06 LiamH [~LiamH@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:24 in any case, if you stack-allocate frames and/or copy heap-allocated frames to a stack cache, you need to box mutable variables. 02:53:52 -!- xan_ [~xan@nttkyo516020.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:53:56 since multiple copies need to share the variable, but it obviously cannot be atomically mutated in every copy 02:55:12 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.81.234] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:58:06 alternatively, you could imagine a system of indirection, whereby the variable is initially stack-allocated with the indirection pointer pointing to the stack, and only boxed on demand if the stack frame is evicted. 02:59:06 the indirection pointer is then updated to point to a cell on the heap instead. 02:59:11 one could imagine such a scheme... maybe similar to what Chez does to minimise the overhead of continuations when they aren't used. 03:00:19 how does Chez do it? 03:00:52 the Gambit talk at ILC was very nice 03:00:52 iirc, they start with a stack and evict it to linked frames lazily. 03:01:16 yes, that's a common general technique - any details? 03:02:02 I don't think they copy it back to the stack, so activation records are never duplicated. 03:03:18 in Gambit, evicted frames are copied to the stack one by one when reactivated, which is kind of expensive, but means the code generator can have only one calling / return convention to worry about 03:03:47 the "bottom" handlers on the stack handle the conversion. 03:03:55 -!- rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:04:56 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:26 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@120-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:05:31 yeah. I discussed that scheme with Feeley... in the end, it would have been a tad more complex on SBCL. 03:05:41 ? 03:06:10 -!- LiamH [~LiamH@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: LiamH] 03:06:10 ~2 years ago, I was looking at delimited continuations or coroutines in SBCL. 03:06:27 CL usually assumes continuations are use-once and use that assumption to stack-allocate much more. 03:06:29 syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:07 lemoinem [~swoog@120-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:11 stack allocation isn't necessary to get most of the benefits; LIFO memory management is already pretty good, even if off-stack. 03:07:24 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-148-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:49 konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 03:09:20 with a linked list of fixed-sized frames, a la K-machine? 03:09:43 -!- timack [~tim@142.177.11.100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:45 not necessarily fixed-size, or even a linked-list. 03:10:52 (what does LIFO without a stack mean, if not such a free-list?) 03:12:04 so an allocate-only "stack" a la Cheney-on-the-MTA, where you never pop? 03:12:06 DX guarantees LIFO lifetimes; we don't have to use the control stack (arguably, shouldn't) for scoped storage. 03:13:01 DX doesn't mean much if your continuations can be captured and replayed many times. 03:13:26 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:13:39 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@120-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:13:44 on the contrary, I'd argue that it means a lot. 03:14:32 so, some explicit barrier to access, in case someone tries to enter twice? 03:14:51 "you still have the handle, but it's now invalid"? 03:14:56 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 03:15:05 sure, a la unwind-protect. Or just segfault. 03:15:10 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-2-37.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:15:22 lemoinem [~swoog@120-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:25 segfault is evil, unless (safety 0) of course 03:15:31 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-37-148.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:15:59 how do I double arguments? 03:16:07 syntard, uh? (* 2 x) ? 03:16:17 replicate i mean 03:16:27 (+ x x)? 03:16:27 x dup 03:16:55 Fare: that's cl ? 03:17:14 syntard, cl doesn't have linearity constraints on argument use, so no need to duplicate 03:17:31 oh, you mean duplicate an *object* passed as argument? 03:17:40 What kind of object? 03:17:41 banisterfiend [~horse@122-59-244-16.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:17:51 as in, copy-seq ? 03:17:54 trying to make a square 03:18:14 anything, maybe a macro, eval once, replicate 03:18:31 Are you playing with a turtle? 03:18:58 pjb: nope, is it good? 03:19:08 What are you trying to do? 03:19:11 *Fare* remembers LOGO without fondness 03:19:42 pjb: i'm trying to be concise 03:19:49 (defmacro double-args (call) (cons (car call) (mapcan (lambda (x) (list x x)) (cdr call)))) 03:20:00 please don't use that. 03:20:07 syntard: you said you wanted to make a square, but what is a square? 03:20:08 Revolve [~3@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 03:20:24 (make-square) 03:20:26 pjb: i'm syntard, that's why 03:20:42 pjb: I wanted to calculate a square 03:20:46 syntard, come back with a lisp paste of your efforts 03:20:52 (defun square (x) (* x x)) 03:20:57 What's the problem? 03:21:09 pjb: without defun, without lambda 03:21:16 (* x x) 03:21:25 pjb: without typing x twice 03:21:28 (expt x 2) 03:21:32 Which is worse. 03:21:38 *syntard* sniffs 03:21:48 Because now we go thru trancendental functions, instead of a mere CPU product. 03:21:52 to make a square you hit the key above the numbers 4 and 5 on your symbolics keyboard 03:21:54 gigamonkey: without using clever functions 03:21:56 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@122-59-244-16.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:22:11 syntard: you've eliminated all the solutions. Bravo! 03:22:15 (let ((y x)) (* y y)) 03:22:28 Fare: ;-) 03:22:45 -conversion doesn't count. 03:22:52 Fare: ok... wait, without typing y twice 03:22:53 pjb: If your compiler makes that go through transcendentals, it's both idiotic and non-compliant 03:23:03 syntard, FIRST, tell us what counts 03:23:07 Fare: but if y is short, that's ok 03:23:07 instead of what doesn't 03:23:52 y looks to be about 13 pixels to me, so it's pretty short. 03:23:55 dunno, what's shorter than y? ||? 03:24:08 Fare: I think this is good 03:24:21 (< (length (string '||)) (length (string 'y))) ==> T 03:24:55 (flet ((square (x) (* x x)) (square x)) | 03:24:57 Fare: i wanted something more general though 03:25:24 (defun square (x) ...) .... (square x) ... is pretty general 03:25:29 Fare: replicate an argument n times and pass it to an arbitrary function 03:25:31 it's called FUNCTIONAL ABSTRACTION 03:25:59 pkhuong_: (expt b x) is defined as b^x = e^x log b ; the only constraint when b and x are rationals, is that the result must be exat. With integers, it can be ensured with a call to round. 03:26:26 pjb: and what precision? 03:26:46 (apply '* (make-list n :initial-element x)) 03:27:01 Fare: cool! 03:27:07 (apply #'* (loop repeat n collect x)) 03:27:13 Fare wins. 03:27:17 loop again 03:27:25 :) 03:27:30 pkhuong_: well, in clisp long-float have a lot of precision, if I so require. But all right, it becomes more complicated. 03:28:12 banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.113.51] has joined #lisp 03:28:30 But apply works only up to (1- call-argument-limit) (plus one for '*) 03:28:46 (loop :with accumulator = 1 :repeat n :do (setf accumulator (* accumulator x)) :finally (return accumulator)) 03:28:58 But then it's longer than y. 03:29:04 and '|| 03:29:20 pjb: In this case: (reduce #'* (loop repeat 2 collect 10)) 03:29:30 clearly || is shorter than y 03:29:45 Though syntard's strange desires want a "general" solution so REDUCE isn't always appropriate. 03:29:55 what's "general"? 03:30:01 something above "kernel"? 03:30:04 On the other hand (* x x ...) is also limited by call-arguments-limit 03:30:04 you probably need to implement CORBA 03:30:27 Heh. private, kernel, general Sounds like the army. 03:31:04 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.160.101] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:31:07 syntard: is there some langauge (other than Forth) that has something like this weird thing you're asking for. 03:31:53 gigamonkey: no, just want to save time typing 03:32:13 syntard, what's the context? 03:32:20 gigamonkey: sicp is full of verbose examples 03:33:16 syntard: then: C-M-b C-M-k C-y SPC C-y is only 5 keychords in emacs, and is the same whatever the length of x. 03:33:26 And you can wrap it up in an emacs macro. 03:33:56 pjb: and it can be made a keyboard-macro 03:34:02 Typing savings are not archived with the compilers, but with the editors! 03:34:24 pjb: lol 03:34:25 Yes, I meant a keyboard macro. 03:34:32 Tapping savings is achieved by congress 03:36:44 syntard: Okay. So what you want is nuts. Just so you know. 03:37:15 gigamonkey: but it prompted interesting solutions 03:37:34 gigamonkey: i decided to just define a square function though 03:38:04 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:38:41 interesting is the wrong word. 03:38:47 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.240.231] has joined #lisp 03:43:18 interesting to a newbie 03:43:40 *schmrkc* is a newbie and finds it uninteresting :( 03:44:42 Fare: what, i wasted your time? 03:51:48 rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 03:54:11 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.113.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:55:10 banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.113.51] has joined #lisp 04:01:04 -!- belsyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:32 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:02:50 -!- az [~az@p5796C026.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:03:12 Brucio-12 [~Brucio-12@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:28 evening 04:03:33 -!- Brucio-12 is now known as beslyrus 04:04:17 -!- beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:51 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@120-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:16 lemoinem [~swoog@239-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:28 *syntard* waves 04:08:53 I pasted mygcd http://paste.lisp.org/display/116038 criticize if you have time 04:09:13 beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:15 more importantly, inclination 04:09:23 msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has joined #lisp 04:10:07 argh... it would be nice if dropping into the debugger didn't make my beirc process unusable. 04:10:19 oh, yeah, that happens (: 04:11:05 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-2-37.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:12:01 oh man 04:12:19 loading a subpackage explicitly made all those errors 04:12:49 like clsql-mysql or clsql-postgresql after clsql, but getting clsql already load those 04:13:17 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has joined #lisp 04:13:21 lol 04:13:43 Good morning everyone! 04:14:25 morning beach 04:14:36 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-79-74.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:18:07 -!- pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:21:22 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:23:39 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:28:00 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:31:07 az [~az@p5796CFCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:44 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-148-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:41:38 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.87.130] has joined #lisp 04:44:09 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:55:34 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:52 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:57:07 is there a searchable hyperspec? 04:57:19 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:26 Yeah. The hyperspec is searchable. Use google or the permutated index. 05:00:52 permutated index? 05:01:14 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm 05:01:18 permuted 05:01:53 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.113.51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:02:02 well, yes, the famous index 05:02:23 banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.113.51] has joined #lisp 05:02:35 For most cases where you'd search, the permuted index will work nicely. 05:02:53 hi 05:02:55 Otherwise google search with hyperspec in the query tends to work well. 05:03:08 Hello, evil ruby person. 05:03:47 Zhivago: thanks! 05:04:18 im trying to implement an MOP for ruby, i dont want to learn common lisp but i just want to learn enough about MOP to understand what's going on. What should i read and how should i go about it? 05:04:54 banister: Have a look at tinyclos (written in scheme). 05:04:55 also it says that you can use the MOP to redefine inheritance, what does the API look like to do this? 05:05:16 i can't imagine how such an api would look like 05:05:17 ok 05:05:30 banisterfiend: Why do you not want to learn Common Lisp? 05:05:35 In CL, it looks like a class definition. 05:05:39 How can you not want to learn cl 05:05:55 hehehe 05:06:01 i'll learn it eventually, but ill work my way up :) 05:06:18 banister: Redefining the class is usually done with a class definition of the same name, which redefines the class and updates the instances. 05:06:22 my beard isn't long enough yet 05:07:10 hm 05:07:20 That said, I'd still start by looking at tinyclos before looking at CL. 05:07:35 -!- btbngr [~btbgnr@212.183.140.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:07:37 ok thanks 05:07:41 tinyclos is cleaner and will show the conceptual underpinnings. 05:08:12 Particularly how generic function dispatch can be implemented using generic functions. 05:08:15 is there a good website that gives a simple introduction to MOP with lots of example code ? 05:08:33 You can find the relevant chapter of AMOP on-line. 05:09:07 ok thanks i have AMOP so i'll check it 05:09:31 http://community.schemewiki.org/?Tiny-CLOS 05:13:09 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.87.130] has left #lisp 05:13:35 im lso looking at this: http://www.lisp.org/mop/concepts.html 05:16:31 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-86-60.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:16:53 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-79-74.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:27:45 dolohov [~root@unaffiliated/dolohov] has joined #lisp 05:27:49 hello all. 05:27:56 hello dolohov 05:28:26 banisterfriend [~horse@121.90.41.148] has joined #lisp 05:28:30 dolohov: I don't recognize your nick. Are you new here? 05:28:33 I wish to learn about computer science, and want to take that journey with Lisp (I was recommended scheme, which is a dialect). I have also been recommended SICP, but it seems to require mathematics experience beyond my capabilities. 05:28:44 I'm 14, and never did well at math, I actually did awful. 05:28:45 beach: yes. 05:29:01 I'm serious about learning how to write elegant useful programs. 05:29:13 If anyone could give me a sense of direction, it would be appreciated 05:29:17 dolohov: Do you know any other programming language? 05:29:18 not sure where to go. 05:29:19 beach: no 05:29:29 beach: Well, I know a little C, but not enough to say that I know C 05:29:44 minion: Please tell dolohov about gentle! 05:29:45 dolohov: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 05:30:05 Okay, so I should go with common lisp instead of scheme/sicp? 05:30:15 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.113.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:30:33 dolohov: You are in a Common Lisp IRC channel. We are not exactly objective. 05:30:51 I just want to be the best I can be 05:31:09 dolohov: I think you will find that learning Common Lisp is a good investment. 05:31:11 superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:32 beach: okay then. thanks very much 05:31:41 No problem. 05:32:08 -!- dolohov [~root@unaffiliated/dolohov] has quit [Client Quit] 05:33:33 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.102] has joined #lisp 05:33:33 nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:36 dolohov: patience and perseverance are your best allies, not intelligence and math skills. make sure you do all the exercises in Gentle and understand, ask whenever you need to. 05:33:41 -!- rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:33:52 askatasuna: He left. 05:33:52 antoszka_ [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 05:34:19 oh well. i guess i should turn the join/part filters back one before I make an ass out of myself again 05:36:03 back off* see what I mean? 2 30 am here :p 05:36:43 heh! 05:37:47 dolohov [~root@unaffiliated/dolohov] has joined #lisp 05:38:18 sorry, I closed my terminal yb accident 05:38:30 ah! I am redeemed :P 05:38:44 Congratulations! 05:39:11 dolohov: patience and perseverance are your best allies, not intelligence and math skills. make sure you do all the exercises in Gentle and understand, ask whenever you need to. 05:40:22 beach: regarding something you just said, I didn't know this was a CL channel, I assumed any lisps. 05:40:26 askatasuna: Hehe. thanks. 05:41:10 *dolohov* thought the same. 05:41:13 -!- beslyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:41:28 just assumed that #lisp was official for generic lisp programming and not ANSI Common lisp 05:41:29 askatasuna: Well, questions related to any Lisp are usually OK, but there is definitely a CL preference here. 05:41:36 *franki^* thinks the topic is fairly clear 05:42:15 beach: are you an operator here? 05:42:22 franki: makes sense, I'll buy it. 05:42:23 dolohov: Nope. 05:43:38 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:36 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.98.198] has joined #lisp 05:47:18 do most of you write most/all programs in common lisp? or just mostly AI related stuff? 05:47:41 dolohov: Not many people do AI stuff. 05:48:07 oh 05:49:43 What does AI stuff mean? 05:49:59 dolohov: I'm still learning as well. I use CL for small games and math stuff. 05:50:30 Zhivago: artifical intelligence. 05:50:38 Zhivago: i'm just going by what the gentle book says 05:50:50 What does artificial intelligence mean? 05:50:51 askatasuna: Math is not one of my strong suits at all :p 05:51:14 -!- banisterfriend [~horse@121.90.41.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:51:56 banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.41.148] has joined #lisp 05:52:08 well there's math and then there's math. I don't do anything more complicated than first-year college stuff because that is what I need. 05:53:27 I used to be very bad at math, and then discovered that A) I was being taught wrong and B) math is mostly about the notation. I now use it like a very loose programming language, to express my thoughts more clearly 05:55:56 That's really cool 05:57:55 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.102] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 06:00:47 dolohov No, but #scheme should have some useful ideas. 06:01:03 ops 06:11:01 Gentle book?which book? 06:11:19 minion: tell superflit about Gentle 06:11:20 superflit: have a look at Gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 06:11:30 ha! i always wanted to do that :p 06:11:31 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-86-60.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:11:31 ahhh ok 06:11:50 what about your view in scheme? (not to start a flame war) 06:12:07 lol. 06:12:22 thanks everyone. 06:12:24 I only have second-hand comments about scheme, i've never programmed anything in it. 06:12:28 *dolohov* needs to go. 06:12:45 -!- dolohov [~root@unaffiliated/dolohov] has quit [Quit: WHO GAVE THE STOMACH FLU??????FUUUUU] 06:13:00 general consensus seems to be scheme is interesting for some things, but CL is more useful in real life 06:13:16 cl seems like zen 06:13:26 you have to do it...untill illumination comes 06:13:35 superflit: do you practice zen buddhism? 06:13:58 askatasuna: taoismo but we may agree the real way is the same 06:14:10 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-6-128.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:15:37 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 06:15:57 understood. principal issues with scheme seem to be lack of standarization, lack of libraries, and the fact that it has a single namespace for functions and variables 06:16:19 i repeat my disclaimer that I know this from third parties by reading about 06:16:28 Some people like the single namespace. :P 06:16:47 askatasuna: i feel the same, but I feel that CL is more transcendental :) 06:17:13 franki: true. i gather that it has to do with ease of macro programming, correct? 06:17:13 franki^: Yeah, we call them Schemers. 06:21:02 askatasuna: I'm not sure about that, I'm not really all that knowledgable. But it makes it look nicer at least! And it makes functions feel much more "equal" when you're passing them around. 06:21:28 Not that that's a very technical argument, maybe I'm missing the heart of the issue 06:21:53 beach: I guess I'm a Schemer then :) 06:22:39 i see 06:23:15 http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SingleNamespaceLisp 06:24:02 There don;t seem to be any great arguments on either side to be honest. 06:24:15 I guess it comes down to "A single namespace looks more attractive to people who favor FunctionalProgramming over other programming paradigms. Separating the function namespace seems to be preferred by people who are more open to freely mix programming paradigms." 06:24:19 Or "taste" 06:25:30 what about this? http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 06:26:08 -!- msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:27:49 anyway, i see your point about it being subjective for the most part. i personally have no position regarding this yet 06:28:18 while I'm at it, I guess I could get something else off my chest 06:28:35 im reading the sbcl manual regarding debugging 06:28:58 using trace, single stepping, etc 06:29:56 are there any graphical tools for this? or source-level debuggers that walk you through the code while you step it, while showing symbols bindings? 06:30:22 askatasuna: SLIME can do some of that. 06:30:27 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.98.198] has left #lisp 06:31:23 lol half the time I ask something the answer includes either slime or emacs. I guess I should take a hint and learn :D 06:31:36 askatasuna: Definitely. 06:35:58 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:38:00 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-97-223.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:39:05 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-83-96.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:42:04 franki^: I'd disagree with that quote; a single namespace makes functional programming easier, but does not make other things harder; thus, if one desires to freely mix styles, single-namespace might in fact be preferable 06:42:13 certainly not the opposite 06:42:44 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:43:44 Well, those aren't my words, it was taken from the article. I certainly prefer a single namespace myself, but I also favour a functional style. *shrug* 06:44:16 The single namespace in python really annoys me. 06:44:32 You are forced to pick stupid names for things in order to avoid collisions. 06:45:50 I've never found that to be a problem in Scheme, I haven't written much Python. (Or any really, since I discovered fully parenthesised languages) 06:46:19 But, it's nearly 2am here,I'm off to bed. Good night Lispers o/ 06:49:17 night 06:49:35 Zhivago: I find I don't miss lisp-n-ness when writing clojure code 06:53:48 So, what do you call your lists? :) 06:54:04 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-103-248.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:54:08 seqs :) 06:54:19 What do you call your seqs, then? 06:54:24 _nix001 [~Adium@58.33.106.154] has joined #lisp 06:54:40 something other than seq or list 06:54:43 Although i can see that they're already heavily into stupid names. 06:54:57 -!- devon [~devon@c-24-6-0-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55:30 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-83-96.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:56:55 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:57:14 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-6-128.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:02:37 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.197.5] has joined #lisp 07:02:55 Why does cl-irc seem to work only in SBCL? 07:03:02 But not CLISP or ECL? 07:03:47 i can't get cl-opengl to work 07:03:51 shit 07:04:03 maaaaaan 07:04:39 aidalgol: I am just guessing, but a thing like that probably requires non-portable code (sockets perhaps), and nobody bothered to adapt it to those two implementations. 07:05:05 beach: Why are sockets non-portable? 07:05:43 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B326EA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:01 aidalgol: Because they are not mentioned in the HyperSpec, so each implementation could potentially implement them differently. 07:07:53 why don't we update the hyperspec, you ask? apparently we don't have the technology. 07:08:10 slyrus_: What technology? 07:08:28 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082AE43.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:08:28 well, yes, that's a good question :) 07:08:33 fscking hyperspec 07:08:44 CL is awesome... until it sucks. 07:09:37 aidalgol: It shouldn't be surprising to you that a language standard doesn't cover everything you will ever need in order to write programs. 07:10:14 beach: I think the problem is summed up in this quote (on a different topic): "We feel that the time for such radical changes to Common Lisp passed, and it would be the job of future Lisp designers to take lessons from Common Lisp and Scheme to produce an improved Lisp." 07:10:49 slyrus_: That doesn't sound like a problem to me. 07:11:28 beach: It doesn't. 07:11:55 beach: that wasn't the problem, it was the rationale for not fixing the problem. 07:12:06 It's just annoying that some Common Lisp libraries are actually effectively libraries for a particular implementation. 07:12:28 aidalgol: Can you quote some programming language for which this is not true? 07:12:35 beach: Ruby. 07:12:38 C 07:12:46 aidalgol: Ruby doesn't even have a standard. 07:12:53 It is definitely true for C. 07:12:56 It has a de facto standard. 07:13:03 And it's much less common for C. 07:13:09 aidalgol: Then think of SBCL as the defacto standard for CL. 07:13:33 Even if a library only works on a particular OS, it's still probably valid C. 07:13:35 them's fightin' words 07:13:58 aidalgol: How is that "portable"? 07:15:21 beach: I'm only talking about what's standard C, anyway. If it uses non-ANSI C libraries, then of course it's not portable. 07:15:30 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 07:15:30 Well, not definitely. 07:15:37 aidalgol: Sockets don't exist in standard C. 07:15:47 Devon [~devon@c-24-6-0-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:06 [at least they didn't last time I looked] 07:16:29 I know. 07:16:32 CL can't really be fixed. 07:16:41 It can only be surpassed. 07:16:47 aidalgol: So how is this situation different from that of CL? 07:16:52 It's true for any decent language that it's awesome until it sucks. 07:16:56 In the meanwhile you might as well just get on with it. 07:16:57 I like CL. 07:17:06 msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has joined #lisp 07:17:21 hmm.. cl-irc uses usocket, which has a clisp backend.. I think it's threads that create the problem on clisp (cl-irc has conditional code for allegro/cmu/lispworks/sb-thread/openmcl/armedbear) 07:18:42 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-147-102.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:21:46 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:23:13 it also has code for non-threaded sbcl.. and I bet the equivalent semantics can be implemented for clisp 07:24:55 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:27:36 in fact, I'm not sure why it shouldn't work on clisp as-is. 07:27:38 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:30:24 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:47 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:36:52 beach: I would say that sockets/threads/ffi/... are fairly portable, given today's compatibility libraries. this or that implementation may lack this or that functionality, but this is fixable and code using those compat libs will then work 07:37:24 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-83-96.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:38:43 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:39:34 -!- Devon [~devon@c-24-6-0-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:49 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has joined #lisp 07:42:59 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-103-248.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:44:02 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-43-170.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:47:55 cmpitg [~cmpitg@210.245.54.125] has joined #lisp 07:48:18 Kerrick [~Kerrick@173-23-121-135.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-164.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:51:23 adeht: Sure, I agree. I just meant "portable" as "using only functionality mentioned in the standard". 07:51:58 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:55:25 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.240.231] has quit [Quit: bye] 07:55:53 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:56:54 fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has joined #lisp 07:57:10 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03:48 HET2 [~diman@91.106.90.2] has joined #lisp 08:04:52 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.106.90.2] has quit [Client Quit] 08:09:33 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:10:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-164.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:20:43 hi everyone 08:21:00 dto: Hello 08:21:10 :) 08:21:12 how are you? 08:21:17 one moment, brb 08:21:19 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-174-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:21:31 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-174-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:21:35 dto: Very fine, thank you. And you? 08:22:17 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 08:22:31 rukowen [~thehien@222.253.95.89] has joined #lisp 08:22:32 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.41.148] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:22:52 doing a little lisp hacking 08:23:35 dto: Your personal project? 08:23:49 yep. http://dto.github.com/notebook/xiobeat.html 08:23:58 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-243-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:24:16 dto: Wow 08:24:26 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-243-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:24:37 dto: I have watched a video about XIOBEAT a couple days ago 08:24:48 cool. 08:24:58 dto: Best video in Lisp conf or something, I'm sorry I don't remember exactly 08:25:11 dto: And I was really impressed! 08:25:19 well, which video did you see 08:25:40 the 2A trailer is not in-game footage, here's the one: 08:25:56 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:26:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2b9dKlMaw4 08:26:20 this isn't in game either . i didn't have much of anything on the screen at that point 08:26:41 there'll be much more to show at Boston Lisp 08:27:18 dto: That's pretty cool! 08:27:28 dto: The one I watched was Trailer 2A 08:27:36 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-174-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:27:41 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-174-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:28:51 cmpitg: it's exciting :) everything is coming together. i still have a few design things to work out but i'm confident to have something really playable showing all main ideas, by november, with a few songs 08:29:16 by mid-november 08:29:39 what i have is still in a pretty early stage but some more nights of hacking should change it :) 08:29:59 i was going to do a printed paper code review of xiobeat. and just use a pencil to sketch ideas and review it in black-and-white. i like doing that. 08:30:26 dto: I'll be looking forwards to seeing that 08:30:45 dto: Too bad I can't attend Lisp Boston or any Lisp meetings all over the world 08:31:02 there aren't any near you? 08:31:18 dto: Unfortunately not 08:31:33 we should broadcast the audio/video for you 08:31:44 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:31:51 dto: Yeah, that would be great 08:32:08 dto: I'll be staying in tune! 08:32:10 dto: :-) 08:32:24 dto: I live in Vietnam, where Lispers are very very hard to find 08:33:23 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-174-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:33:50 cmpitg: What do you do in vietnam? 08:34:11 banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has joined #lisp 08:34:20 Zhivago: I'm a developer and part-time educator 08:34:41 Do you know beach? 08:35:16 Zhivago: I don't. What's that? 08:35:46 He teaches lisp in vietnam sometimes. You can find him in this channel. 08:36:34 Zhivago: Oh, really? 08:36:52 beach: Sorry to call you `what'... 08:37:41 beach: Do you come by Vietnam sometimes or do you live in Vietnam? 08:38:08 He was here a few hours ago. :) 08:38:12 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-174-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:12 Maybe he is away now. 08:38:52 Zhivago: No problem, I'm on #lisp very frequently :-) 08:38:56 Zhivago: Thank you 08:39:13 cmpitg: his lunch time 08:39:27 cmpitg: He lives in France 08:39:38 Sometimes he lives in vietnam. 08:39:54 rukowen, Zhivago: Does he work with IFI or AUF? 08:40:06 He is a university lecturer. 08:42:11 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:43:24 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 08:43:28 Zhivago: I see 08:44:05 cmpitg: I usually live in France, but I am going to VN for 6 months starting mid december. 08:44:07 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-41-194.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:44:40 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-43-170.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:44:53 cmpitg: You will find a few VN lispers here: vng, maus, longkid, rukowen, redsord7. 08:44:57 beach: Wow, that's pretty great 08:45:37 cmpitg: IFI and AUF are in Hanoi, right. I work for PUF in TP HCM. 08:45:57 beach: Yeah, I see 08:46:35 beach: If you ever come to Hanoi, let's gather some time and have some talks 08:46:44 beach: I live and work in Hanoi 08:46:55 cmpitg: That might very well happen. And that sounds like a good idea. 08:47:21 beach: :-) 08:47:40 cmpitg: I'll invite you to give a Lisp seminar in TP HCM if you like. 08:48:24 beach: Thank you, that's pretty great idea! 08:49:25 beach: But until the next April, it's very difficult for me to leave Hanoi. 08:50:05 cmpitg: OK, I'll organize it after that. 08:51:01 beach: :-) 08:54:08 znutar [~znutar@69.164.197.143] has joined #lisp 08:56:04 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 08:58:46 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59:07 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@173-23-121-135.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:00:22 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:00:33 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-93-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:04:08 HET2 [~diman@91.106.90.2] has joined #lisp 09:04:47 -!- pixel__ [~pixel@p4FC54A34.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: gn *] 09:12:32 _danb_ [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:13:03 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-107-27.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:14:58 beach: mid december? 09:14:58 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:18:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:18:43 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7550ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:14 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@210.245.54.125] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:25:27 u 09:28:05 -!- moah [~gnu@188.109.167.0] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:31:13 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 09:33:24 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:33:37 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:36:57 longkid [~longkid@118.68.216.208] has joined #lisp 09:37:05 hello all 09:37:06 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:37:45 What's the difference between (eval pi) & (eval 'pi)? 09:38:30 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-147-102.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:38:45 gemelen_ [~shelta@shpd-92-101-147-102.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:38:52 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:39:26 it evaluates different expressions 09:39:57 I see the same printed result 09:40:05 good 09:40:45 do you see the same results in (+ 0 3) and (+ 1 2) too? 09:40:50 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-29.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:41:09 smybols have value cells 09:41:23 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 09:41:35 longkid: in the first case you're doing (eval 3.141592653589793d0) 09:41:57 and in the latter, (eval 'pi) 09:42:19 stassats: I don't understand the latter case. 09:42:34 what don't you understand about it? 09:42:50 kenanb [~user@95.14.60.39] has joined #lisp 09:42:52 it's (eval (quote pi)) 09:43:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:43:10 stassats: In the latter case, the value of symbol pi is evaluated by eval function. RIght? 09:43:11 quote prevents evaluation, eval evaluates 09:44:04 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 09:44:24 longkid: no, the value of pi is evaluated in the former example 09:44:35 in the latter example pi itself is evaluated 09:45:20 stassats: And pi is evaluated to 3.141... in the latter case by eval. Right? 09:45:28 right 09:45:37 maybe what confuses you is that it has two evals 09:45:40 in fact 09:46:12 one that evaluates every argument before passing to a function, and the second your explicit call to EVAL 09:46:46 stassats: Can you explain more? 09:46:51 it's like referring to by value and by reference in c/c++ 09:47:04 so you use ' to prevent the first eval from evaluating your pi 09:47:21 homie: it's not 09:47:24 ah 09:47:46 hmmm, ok have to read more about that i think 09:47:57 stassats: OK. I think it's clear now. 09:49:03 stassats is there an equivalent expression which would resebmle the by value by reference thing in c/c++ in lisp ? 09:49:10 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 09:49:23 banisterfriend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has joined #lisp 09:49:27 -!- antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 09:49:55 homie: lisp passes everything by reference, except for some exceptions 09:50:00 numbers and keywords and strings eval to themselves, it's worth noting 09:50:05 ah 09:50:34 homie: but those exceptions don't matter, since you can't modify them and you won't know the difference 09:51:02 -!- rukowen [~thehien@222.253.95.89] has left #lisp 09:51:55 and they are literal objects, like numbers, characters, etc. 09:53:21 Could you please help me? http://paste.lisp.org/display/116043 09:53:38 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:54:13 longkid: (defpackage match (:use cl)) 09:54:14 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-112-69.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:54:38 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-41-194.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:54:40 SBCL doesn't include CL into use-list of a package if your :use is empty 09:55:18 and modify in-package to (in-package match) respectively 09:56:22 or :match, or #:match, with "match" your package name will depend on the character case 09:57:27 stassats: Another error is called as "name conflicts in #" between match::defun, common-lisp:defun 09:57:52 longkid: you didn't change "match" to match 09:58:14 (well, that's not the solution to _this_ problem, but it won't give you such error) 09:58:34 stassats: Could you plz explain the difference between using match & "match"? 09:59:08 longkid: the reader by default upcases all symbols, so match will be MATCH, but "match" will stay unchanged 09:59:28 if you will use "match", you'll have to enter your package name as |match|::variablep 09:59:44 stassats: Yes, exactly. 10:00:16 you can use "MATCH", but it may fail on non-default readers, so the best thing is to use one of match, :match, #:match 10:00:27 stassats: That's not flexible. Right? 10:00:38 what is? 10:01:08 stassats: I mean that using "match" or "MATCH" is not flexible. 10:01:18 right 10:01:37 so, is it working now? 10:01:52 stassats: Is there any difference btw match, :match, #:match? 10:01:53 -!- kenanb [~user@95.14.60.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:02:01 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:14 longkid: not for defpackage or in-package 10:02:44 they differ in their package, but defpackage and in-package don't care about the package 10:03:01 some prefer #:match, because it doesn't have any package at all 10:05:08 stassats: It runs correctly. But I still don't understand #:match 10:05:08 longkid: try (variablep '||), does it work? 10:05:24 clhs #: 10:05:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm 10:05:43 longkid: it creates a symbol with no home-package 10:06:27 stassats: Oh. So that symbol is controlled by what? 10:06:39 by itself 10:07:18 longkid: defpackage uses only the name of a symbol, so it doesn't care where the symbols comes from 10:07:21 stassats: If another one use (defpackage #:match ...), is there any error? 10:07:24 (string '#:foo) => "FOO" 10:07:38 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:07:44 longkid: no, they're all equivalent in this case 10:08:53 it will be ultimately converted to "MATCH" (by default) 10:09:20 -!- msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has left #lisp 10:09:24 kenanb [~user@95.14.60.39] has joined #lisp 10:09:31 stassats: And two package with same name "MATCH" are created. Right? 10:09:43 no, one package 10:09:54 longkid: so, did you try (variablep '||)? 10:10:41 stassats: An error happens. 10:11:36 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:11:50 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:12:12 stassats: I don't understand why this error happens. 10:12:50 because the name of this symbol has zero length, and you're trying to access it's element, which it doesn't have 10:13:07 (symbol-name '||) => "" 10:13:18 s/it's/its/ 10:13:50 what's does || mean? 10:14:11 clhs | 10:14:11 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for |. 10:14:27 well, || escapes characters 10:14:55 stassats: OK. 10:14:56 (symbol-name '|AbC|) => "AbC" but (symbol-name 'AbC) => "ABC" 10:15:36 '|You can have any variable names with it.| 10:15:41 stassats: Okay. Thanks. 10:25:28 homie: What happens when you try? 10:25:33 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:26:34 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-63-83-105.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:27:48 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 10:28:45 nothing, it tells me my quicklisp dist is upto date, but even after days so i think it is just not working somehow 10:29:34 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:55 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.197.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:29:57 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:31:47 there is just one sync just at the beginning of the installation of quicklisp afterwards there is no snyc with any lib 10:32:57 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@178.120.204.118] has joined #lisp 10:33:13 -!- longkid [~longkid@118.68.216.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:33:15 homie: are you sure quicklisp should have updated some libraries since then? 10:33:43 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:34:55 homie: no, there have just been no updates yet. 10:35:01 homie: so it is working as designed. 10:36:04 colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-34-155.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:36:37 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:04 Xach: do you frequently sync the libs of quicklisp with original repos, even for minor changes? or do you wait for changes to be quaranteed to work, tested, etc 10:37:53 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@178.120.204.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:39:19 kenanb: the policy has not been established yet. i don't imagine high-frequency updates. 10:39:30 kenanb: i hope to make a library update this weekend 10:39:55 i could picture a quarterly update policy for the official stuff and a more frequent unofficial update 10:40:22 http://xach.com/tmp/updates.txt has a preliminary list of updates. some are spurious. 10:41:23 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:44 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C6A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:49 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-112-69.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:43:32 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-38-96.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:43:41 Xach: i haven't tried quicklisp yet, since i don't use too many libs nowadays, but it seems like a very good solution, planning to use it soon, thanks for the good work 10:44:16 thanks 10:47:47 -!- syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:48:28 -!- _nix001 [~Adium@58.33.106.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:49:28 syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:53:04 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:43 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:55:07 _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.111.187] has joined #lisp 10:56:34 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:28 -!- sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:05:36 logia_th [~nmo@83.40.42.77] has joined #lisp 11:08:24 Xach: no news on the "postabon"-issue? 11:10:59 hypno: nothing from the people directly involved 11:11:40 ok, weird. 11:11:50 Xach, if a person has been using clbuild, what is the best way to change to quicklisp? Delete the clbuild directory first? 11:11:56 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [] 11:12:11 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:21 drl: hmm, do you have any special .sbclrc stuff to initialize clbuild as a source of libs? 11:13:02 drl: my impression is that people start lisp as "clbuild sbcl" or something. if you just use plain sbcl instead you can use quicklisp without doing anything special. 11:13:15 *Xach* goes to make blueberry pancakes 11:14:47 Xach, no, I don't have a .sbclrc 11:15:18 kingless [~user@adsl-162-136-191.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:49 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.146.208] has joined #lisp 11:20:02 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:30 timack [~tim@hlfx54-1-163.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 11:23:08 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:23:08 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 11:25:53 enupten [~neptune@117.254.150.213] has joined #lisp 11:26:52 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:34 Noobie here; Can I call sqr after this (setf sqr #'(lamdba (x) (* x x))) ? 11:28:06 enupten: (funcall sqr 4) 11:28:15 enupten: Common Lisp is a lisp-2. 11:28:33 minion: tell enupten about lisp-2 11:28:34 enupten: please look at lisp-2: is at http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 11:28:44 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:28:53 <_8david> Xach: is there a quicklisp philosophy regarding overrides? i.e., how should things behave when a user wants to download most stuff using quicklisp, but hack one system locally? 11:29:07 <_8david> For comparison, the clbuild idea is that user should stick that directory into clbuild/source manually, and the only special thing clbuild does is that it will respect the choice of version contral and repo location used in that directory, i.e. it will never discard the user's directory or override it by making a different checkout elsewhere. 11:29:18 enupten: you could do: (setf (symbol-function sqr) (lambda (x) (* x x))) (sqr 4) 11:29:22 -!- pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:29:59 <_8david> It also tries not to rebuild links without good reason, so working with the traditional symlink technique, if you have two dirs with the same .asd, then having one a symlink to one of these is pretty safe; clbuild won't (usually) start using the other accidentally. 11:30:10 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:30:11 <_8david> So I'm wondering how that workflow looks like with ql. 11:30:19 pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 11:30:45 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 11:32:24 pjb: Is that totally equivalent do (defun )? 11:32:33 pjb: Or are there some subtle differences? 11:33:05 pjb: Neat! 11:35:09 antoszka: there are differences. 11:35:47 defun will book-keep docstrings, wrap the body of the function in a block named as the function, and may do implementation specific things both at compilation time and at run-time. 11:36:07 Thx. 11:36:28 So (setf (symbol-function f) ...) would be used only for dynamic programming (to change the function f at run-time). 11:36:48 I see. 11:38:40 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:38:54 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:16 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 11:41:35 Bronsa [~bronsa@host8-185-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:42:29 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:42:30 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 11:42:38 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-150.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:55 -!- banisterfriend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:45:51 banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has joined #lisp 11:49:49 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:12 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-38-96.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:54:33 -!- kingless [~user@adsl-162-136-191.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:55:02 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-47-210.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:56:26 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:57:24 jeti [~user@p548EAD2F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:41 johs_ [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 11:59:41 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59:41 -!- pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59:59 pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 12:00:30 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 12:10:00 _8david: in general, if a system is visible via normal asdf:find-system, it overrides quicklisp's systems 12:10:25 _8david: specifically, i'd like to add a directory tree that is automatically scanned so you can just drop stuff in there. not part of ql yet. 12:10:38 i'd also like to be able to interactively register new asdf paths. 12:17:01 -!- johs_ is now known as johs 12:22:09 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:24:02 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:30 sellout [~greg@64.134.66.112] has joined #lisp 12:28:28 -!- nullkuhl_ [~nullkuhl@41.130.27.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:29:54 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 12:30:22 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-39-68.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 12:31:28 <_8david> Oh, so quickload aka autoload-system-and-dependencies is separate from the update machinery. (?) 12:31:38 ya 12:32:01 You could build a new system from the metadata exposed through ql-dist. 12:32:21 the current quickload & friends are approximately the first thing that occurred to me. 12:33:10 <_8david> is there an intermediate thing between just quickload and a full upgrade-dist? say, upgrade-project? 12:33:58 kingless [~user@adsl-162-136-191.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:44 <_8david> s/upgrade/update/ 12:35:05 _8david: no. though the successor dist D' for dist D might in fact change only one project and leave all the other stuff the same. 12:35:31 the permanent URLs are meant to facilitate that. 12:37:39 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx54-1-163.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:05 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host8-185-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:38:38 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:39:11 I compiled 3b-swf with Allegro CL because it reaches heap limit in Lispworks Personal. When I try to load package.fasl, api.fasl or shape.fasl in Lispworks it says: "variable O is unbound". (That O is with some little forward slash on top of it, strange letter). It loads with Allegro CL normally but it has problems with Lispworks ? 12:39:46 Bronsa [~bronsa@host230-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:40:07 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:40:27 prljavi_hari: you can't load fasls from one implementation in another implementation. 12:41:10 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:14 a 12:41:35 what can I do then ? 12:41:51 I want it lispworks ? 12:42:13 prljavi_hari: buy lispworks 12:42:31 lend some money 12:43:05 _8david: you could also make a new dist that has only your upgraded project, then make it a higher preference. that project will be pulled from the new dist, everything else from the old. kind of awkward, probably... 12:44:39 kushal [~kdas@114.143.160.66] has joined #lisp 12:44:39 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.160.66] has quit [Changing host] 12:44:39 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:45:34 Is there aome help or examples on css-lite ? 12:45:36 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 12:51:18 I saw that Lispworks is about $1500. Can it be bought with smaller amounts (credit card or something)? 12:52:05 see http://github.com/paddymul/css-lite/blob/master/example-usage.lisp 12:52:15 ok 12:52:35 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:53:54 you will have to ask the LW team. They are very friendly 12:54:20 ok, I will 12:54:42 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-49-74.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:54:43 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-47-210.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:55:32 mail to lisp-sales@lispworks.com 12:55:33 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:55:40 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:54 ok 12:59:37 `3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:00:43 -!- `3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:02:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:02:39 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:05:03 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:10:07 ~string 13:10:11 oops 13:10:12 (char "\n" 0) 13:10:25 damn my paste buffer 13:10:26 btw, afaik there is a per user license fee policy for the software distributions using allegro environment, i guess it included buying full allegro license before, is it the same now? or do they charge cheaper? 13:11:07 -!- kingless [~user@adsl-162-136-191.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:11:45 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-147-102.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:12:30 i don't know if they still embed the whole allegro environment since the executables created with allegro are pretty tiny 13:13:31 X-02 [~kohei@p1015-ipbf311kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:13:32 -!- X-02 [~kohei@p1015-ipbf311kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 13:14:04 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-39-68.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 13:14:05 http://www.art.net/Studios/Hackers/Hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-doctor.html 13:14:30 X-02 [~kohei@p1015-ipbf311kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:15:08 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067110.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:17:57 MoALTz [~no@92.10.171.11] has joined #lisp 13:22:39 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host230-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:22:55 Bronsa [~bronsa@host230-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:23:15 hrrm should a non-interactive stream process interactive characters like backspace? 13:24:22 what i am really trying to figure out if my reader should return a form once its recived just these to chars "()" or these four "NIL " 13:24:25 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.82.56] has joined #lisp 13:25:03 these two chars "()" and these four "NIL " or if i shoul;d ait for the commital linefeed 13:25:37 (meaning no backspaces could invalidate what is previous read) 13:25:58 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 13:27:38 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-210-24.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:27:56 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-119-148.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:09 nha [~prefect@2001:6f8:1c57:24:219:d2ff:fe2a:1d01] has joined #lisp 13:32:09 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:04 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:33:12 halou [~user@intergruas.easynet.es] has joined #lisp 13:34:03 dmiles_afk: historically, some lisp readers have accepted a form as soon as a closing parenthesis appeared. 13:34:19 dmiles_afk: I guess they would have also accepted "NIL ". 13:35:33 Personnaly, I prefer to have to type RET. Perhaps it could be a parameter of the reader? 13:35:47 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:35:52 i started outputing the form at ")" then i was tryim to to figure out with "()"+ 13:36:26 if i have to make the reader secretly delete the 13:36:36 sort of the way it deletes 13:36:50 That is, if you have a mini editor (backspace processing, but perhaps while readline emacs-like editing?), you need RET to signal the end of editing. 13:37:08 s/while/whole/ 13:37:16 yeah 13:38:31 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:38:36 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:52 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:39:58 making RET a sort of.. is where i was thiunking makes sense 13:40:18 Also, it will be the lest surprizing for modern users. 13:40:33 least 13:40:45 (except inside a string - goes from command to a glyph) 13:41:01 Yes. 13:41:27 Hmm... 13:44:46 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.82.56] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:46:18 there are reader modes that return all the whitespace to 13:46:40 josemanuel [~josemanue@249.252.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:47:16 so i guess i cant get away with secretly deleting the #\newline in "()"+ 13:47:19 In the case of telnet, it can work either in line mode or in character mode. Other clients could also be expected to send packets at least line by line, if not whole forms at once. 13:48:12 In a server I wrote, I just accumulated the characters, and applied read-from-string until no error was found (plus some heuristic about parentheses to skip lone closing parentheses). 13:48:29 Ie. backspace was not processed by the server. 13:49:13 yeah .. i think thats what is best. is accumetuate and go to read-from-string.. then rebuffer the padding 13:49:44 yeah .. i think thats what is best. is accumutate based on a heuristic 13:49:57 make sure read-from-string is very smart 13:50:02 If you expect a client at the other end to prepare the sexp, yes. 13:50:32 Otherwise, you may provide an editing server, working in character mode, but this is better left to the client. 13:51:29 read-from-string = smart enough "(1)()" to leave 3 chars after returning the first form (1) 13:51:58 It is. 13:52:19 dmiles_afk: hmm. you are working on some lisp sexp network protocol? 13:52:44 implementing yet a new common lisp ;) 13:52:59 in ISO-Prolog :) 13:53:19 well i plan to give up as soon as it does a couple things i need 13:54:12 in ISO-prolog? sounds like one /odd/ project, i must say. :) 13:54:27 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-49-74.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:54:57 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-40-82.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:54:57 actualyl i just need a CycL socket client.. (where pjb was picking p on) 13:55:32 a sexpr reader for prolog.. but i had a few years ago did a working lisp in prolog 13:55:55 so when i get frustrated.. i might add more and more cl feartures 13:56:25 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:56:59 (features of the real CL language) 13:57:27 why not just grab a real CL implementation? 13:57:30 but yeah sometimes when the lisp socjet serve ri am reading from is talking to me .. it tends to not send LF enough 13:58:28 in ACL i was having ram limits 13:58:53 and its a in memeory database 13:59:29 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:59:35 i know . its wierd that that i hadnt been able to tune it to hold all the data 13:59:45 ram limits? it' not 64bit ready? SCL gives you 256gb of ram access, if you so wish. i bet scl/ccl and a number of others do the same on 64bit cpus. 13:59:47 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:59 the machien only has 8gb physical ram ;) 14:00:30 though .. i really should be tryign to rething the representation 14:00:51 but then i remind myself.. finish the protype. then have it done correctly 14:01:23 though .. i really should be tryign to rethink the representation .. if it bloats memory too much 14:01:47 dmiles_afk: you mean limited heap size because of the personal version usage of acl? 14:02:07 naw it wanted to GB .. in which 4gb was swapping 14:02:14 naw it wanted 12 GB .. in which 4gb was swapping 14:02:41 i dont get the point of it, but i guess you need prolog for legacy reasons. i'm running SCL on a sunfire v440 with 8gb ram and 4x1ghz cpus and it works just great. 14:02:47 i think arround 18gb it hit some wierder limit 14:03:10 hypno: is scl scineer cl? 14:03:19 kenanb: yes. 14:03:58 theere was a port of this lisp app that was more the ECL methodlogyu that does that 12gb in 6gb 14:04:33 hypno: i don't often hear about it while talking about commercial cl's. is it still maintened? 14:04:36 (so its at least ussable for me when i not running it in ACL) 14:05:14 in SBCL .. it would be so great :) 14:06:17 it runs in ACL, LarKC and LispWorks .. but not ported to run on SBCL yet 14:06:20 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:06:24 kenanb: sure. and douglas crosher seems to be a very smart and easy going guy. it also (well, arguably) sports the only webserver for cl that i would trust without some proxying scheme. 14:06:58 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:59 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:07:14 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-148-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:18 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:07:20 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:07:38 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:07:39 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:07:56 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:07:57 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:08:16 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:08:18 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:19 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:08:38 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:39 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:08:58 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:59 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:09:18 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:20 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:09:38 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:39 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:09:58 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:59 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:10:15 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:16 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:10:35 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:36 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:10:38 Someone might want to kick sdsds 14:10:54 Or ban I guess, temporarly. 14:10:55 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:56 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:11:08 incf beach 14:11:15 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:03 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.111.187] has left #lisp 14:12:33 beach, who has op ? 14:12:40 carlocci [~nes@93.37.192.198] has joined #lisp 14:12:51 Not me. Zhivago is usually around. 14:12:59 Nshag [~none@AStrasbourg-151-1-12-135.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:17:20 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu291.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:17:47 Is that meta-flood? 14:17:56 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-159-27.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:03 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:18:09 Would almost be on topic... 14:19:00 -!- freaktab [~freaktab@dslb-088-072-023-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 14:19:29 *nod* need prolog for legacy reasons - but once its prototyped.. it'll be ported to lisp :) 14:19:48 i'm kind of in the same position. 14:19:56 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-119-148.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:29 i have a 80KLOC relational algebra package, originally written or Convex UNIX, in C. It sports m4 macros, a retarded "repl", report generation and so forth. It is basically a cut-down, highly unreliable and shitty version of a lisp system. :) 14:23:30 what stops you from porting to lisp immediately? 14:24:03 (from the C version of the algrythems) 14:24:39 not that that would be trivial.. there would be a lot to do 14:24:54 well, i've written oracle support,etc for the system in C during that last year, but I do have hopes to convert it to CL. 14:25:21 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 14:25:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:25:55 but it is not all an easy chooice. a CL solution rests on the ability to get extra income from 3d-party somehow. or why would i rewrite the thing in CL and hence stop earning the good money i do from the C solution? 14:26:51 hypno: because CL makes your life more pleasant and allows you to construct cleaner software? 14:26:52 So you're saying you're part of the problem? 14:26:56 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-159-27.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:27:46 madnificent, pjb i am saying i have bills to pay and that whatever i do professionally must bring income. 14:27:47 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host230-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:27:47 well his supervisor makes him keep sprnking more surgar on he current system 14:28:15 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-100-44.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:25 i have a horrid port of someting in C# .. we keep adding feartures needed by a customer 14:28:37 hypno: I was just giving some arguments in favor of lisp. I don't know how your life looks in the short run :) 14:28:39 hypno: physicians have biils to pay too... 14:28:41 but we need to start from scratch 14:28:59 hypno: what do you think of physicians who keep you ill to ensure their income? 14:29:21 hypno: how long do you expect the rewrite to take? 14:30:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:30:32 Bronsa [~bronsa@host230-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:31:12 hypno: without making it more lispy, that is 14:31:19 pjb: that does not fly. this is a system that has been in production for 30 years or so, and it has been involved in some very important calculations (nuclear related). just because it is in C doesnt mean it's completely worthless. 14:31:42 Good. :-) 14:31:57 hypno: It is unclear to me what problem you are trying to solve by rewriting it. 14:32:00 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:32:09 soemtimes i wonder how long it would take to rewriet Cyc in prolog 14:32:16 (its a 30 year thing to) 14:32:59 a govt agency paid a company i contracted for to rewrite it in prolog 14:32:59 it is not like i am "keeping the system" sick deliberately. fuck no, to the contrary: it is me that is taking care of the 30 year old bugs and extending the system with modern systems in mind. i find your remark insulting. 14:33:24 nmot the whole thing.. but i was asked aevery few month how long the port wouldtake 14:34:17 hypno: the suggestion was that a rewrite in CL would suppress your maintenance job. 14:34:40 You mentioned your bills. 14:35:02 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:07 beach: I think reducing maintenance cost, as it apparently includes things that common lisp offers. 14:35:31 madnificent: i think a lisp system would be around, 7-10KLOC. CL has a lot of these things the system has. 2-4 weeks i bet would get us there, and i am working towards such a solution. this is why i am evaluating SCL. 14:36:23 beach: this is something to take into account, choosing the most efficient tool is not always to the benefit of the workers... 14:36:44 (what is SCL?) 14:36:58 or for the maximumum benefit for the comany either sometimes 14:36:59 Actually, it seems to be that this is the most important innertial force acting in our world. 14:37:08 s/to be/to me/ 14:37:13 Was anyone else here at the ALU meeting this year (at the ILC)? 14:37:14 pjb: Sure, but from hypno I hear only arguments against a rewrite, so I am not sure what problem he is trying to solve. 14:37:24 hypno: can you spend 4 weeks without income? how long will it take you to win back the 4 weeks you spent rewriting the application? 14:37:43 gigamonkey: hi 14:37:56 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:38:09 madnificent: sure. but not only that: with CL underhood the system could grew functionality that is within reasonable economic costs! it could be extended even further. it could grow and be greater! but nobody would be interrested in paying for something like that if it can not pay for its own costs. 14:38:11 the problem with such a big long app is .. the time estimate for the port will change too much 14:38:31 gigamonkey: To answer your question on the lisp-pro mailing list, I used to be part of the "education board" or something like that, but nobody ever called on my services, and I don't think I ever paid any fees to be a member. 14:39:09 Xach: were there any actual decisions made at the meeting other than to promise a report on the state of the web site in 90 days? 14:39:33 our (well mine) end descision was to figure out how to use prolog for the few feaues we wanted the 30 year app to do 14:40:07 gigamonkey: I think that sums up the formal decisions. 14:40:09 (only two years of coding) 14:40:26 hypno: keep in mind that you may need some extra debugging too 14:40:37 gigamonkey: the other item of business about where to hold the next ILC was a lot of talk but nothing specifc. 14:40:44 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.150.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:40:54 pjb: right, that is true that. the old system comes with it's own odd programming language. this is legacy stuff. theres a ton to unlearn and another ton to learn, and also compatibility. killing 30 years of habbits is not easy. 14:41:09 Xach: yeah, that's my recollection. 14:41:56 hypno: have you made a list of pro and contra arguments for yourself? This is complicated 14:43:41 m3asmi [~rachid@adsl-180-215-192-81.adsl2.iam.net.ma] has joined #lisp 14:44:37 gigamonkey: my recollection of the website thing was that a plan for the future was due, just not a report on the present. 14:44:49 i think ernst wrote about it in his email 14:45:13 madnificent: well, no it isnt. technically most is crystal clear. CL or perhaps some JVM-language is the right chooice. it is just that there has to be business sense in it. 14:46:56 hypno: Easier to maintain (for you). Easier to extend (for them). Definitive documentation about the programming language (for both of you). Are some 14:47:01 -!- m3asmi [~rachid@adsl-180-215-192-81.adsl2.iam.net.ma] has left #lisp 14:47:07 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:47:44 hypno: also: you may not need as much training for people that need to use the system, as lisp programmers already know the base of what needs to be learned. 14:48:22 -!- jeti [~user@p548EAD2F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 14:48:26 hypno: if you intend to be able to extend the software faster than you used to, you could place that as a marketing point too. 14:49:06 yeah, we'll see. i've been convincing management over the last year that a CL solution would be great and cheaper. it is starting to bear fruit. 14:51:55 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:52:29 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:53:02 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 14:53:43 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 14:53:54 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:54:06 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 14:54:16 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-170.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:54:19 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-40-82.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:54:25 Xach: yes, a plan for the future it was. I misspoke before. 14:55:23 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 14:56:00 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-174-66.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:57:11 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.66.112] has quit [Quit: sellout] 14:59:39 -!- benny [~benny@87.122.54.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:00:03 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:00:53 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-174-66.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 15:01:45 -!- syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:46 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:03:32 beach: the arguments for CL would be easier SMP support, symbolic support and DSLs, better numeric support, better memory support (ie, no 2^32 limit or somesuch), the application is not necessairly 64bit safe but CL is, no more core dumps due to C strings and pointers, and so forth. :) 15:03:55 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-45-1.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:58 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:11 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:05:56 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-100-44.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:06:22 ilc always happens in US ? 15:07:01 or rather is there any Lisp conference in EU ? 15:07:18 kushal: there is ECLS 15:07:27 any link ? 15:07:29 and I think previous ILC was in EU? 15:07:48 ILC moves around 15:07:49 (or maybe it was different conference...) 15:07:57 kushal: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ 15:08:00 as it is easier to attend an event in EU than in US 15:08:02 gnooth, ok 15:08:04 ILC was in England a couple of years ago 15:08:10 p_l|home, ok, thanks , checking 15:08:16 Next ELS will be in Hamburg. 15:08:34 yeah, I hope to show some stuff there :) 15:09:35 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 15:10:30 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:10:38 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:57 p_l|home, I will try to come over :) 15:12:01 first need to figure out ticket prices 15:16:24 ok around 40k for ticket 15:16:33 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:39 there are about 10 european lisp conferences, held every three weeks 15:19:23 wvdschel_ [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 15:20:36 oh 15:21:04 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:14 Xach, which one to attend ? :) 15:22:22 The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:43 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:22:44 LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:46 jeti [~user@p579A44D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:49 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:23:00 symbole [~yaaic@28.sub-75-193-25.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:10 enupten [~neptune@117.254.109.89] has joined #lisp 15:23:18 sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:26:03 -!- colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-34-155.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:26:29 colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-34-155.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:26:38 kushal: the one closest to your home? 15:26:39 sharps`` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:27:15 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:28:10 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-150.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 15:28:50 pjb, all EU is same 15:29:02 :) 15:29:36 Hamburg is easy as I don't have to pay for staying at least 15:29:38 kushal: Xach is exaggerating a lot. 15:29:43 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:51 sharps``` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:30:07 beach, tell me a conf in EU to attend ? this ELS one ? 15:30:08 -!- sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:30:37 kushal: There are essentially 3 events (plus meetings with local Lisp groups) 15:30:56 kushal: ELS is good. So is ECLM. The third one is the Lisp workshop associated with ECOOP. 15:31:51 beach, which one you all attend ? 15:32:28 kushal: ELS and ECLM 15:32:43 maybe it was 3 meetings held every 10 weeks 15:32:53 :) 15:32:57 kushal: I try to attend ELS (since I am a member of the steering committee) and ECLM (which is organized by Arthur Lemmens and Edi Weitz, usually in Amsterdam) 15:33:10 so I will try to attend ELS then 15:33:16 Definitely. 15:33:28 -!- sharps`` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:33:31 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-104.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:33:42 kushal: Unfortunately, I won't be there next time, because I will spend 6 months in Vietnam. 15:33:49 beach, eh 15:34:04 -!- sharps``` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:34:11 beach, what do you do ? 15:34:53 kushal: I am in charge of starting up our third-year undergraduate program in Ho Chi Minh City, and I'll be doing some teaching, and of course my reasearch. 15:35:27 great :) 15:35:37 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:36:08 At the same time, I will continue my indoctrination campaign to turn Vietnam into a nation of Lispers, so that they will not only beat everyone with cost, but also with productivity. 15:36:24 I still remember when in my college they tried to teach us lisp when telling head or tail :( 15:36:34 beach, they are lucky :) 15:36:47 kushal: Yeah, but somehow they don't realize that. 15:37:18 beach: and they'll also still have great food! 15:37:25 they better realize 15:37:38 gigamonkey: Absolutely! I am totally looking forward to it. 15:37:46 sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:38:47 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-104.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:39:08 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-104.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:39:15 beach, Ho Chi Minh City is nearer from my home though :) 15:39:28 kushal: Compared to what? 15:39:33 EU 15:39:42 I am from India 15:39:49 Oh, interesting! 15:40:04 Perhaps you might want to do something similar with India then? 15:40:16 beach, means ? 15:40:23 sharps`` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:40:34 Turning into a nation of Lispers in order to beat everyone with productivity. 15:41:01 =) 15:41:16 -!- symbole [~yaaic@28.sub-75-193-25.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:41:17 beach, here for the last 6 years I am fighting with students to make them understand that if they become good in *something* that will help them only in future life 15:41:23 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:41:24 but finding it very hard 15:41:31 let them fail first 15:41:32 sharps``` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:42:07 -!- The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:10 humasect, failing happily then big indian IT companies are coming and doing interviews and giving them high salaried jobs 15:42:37 -!- wvdschel_ [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:42:40 kushal: Then those IT companies are going to have some problems soon. 15:42:46 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 15:42:48 -!- sharps``` is now known as sharps 15:43:16 it is like : tell us 2+2 , 1st student 4, good you got the job, 2nd student 5, no no it should be 4, you are also in 15:43:37 beach, funny thing is they are still managing somehow 15:43:43 I guess this is the problem when demand outstrips supply 15:43:50 Galen_Nycroft [npzqsb@69.41.179.202] has joined #lisp 15:44:02 I should go and work in India; I know 2 + 2 ;) 15:44:10 Plus, I like the food! 15:44:20 kushal: That's only because the IT industry in most of the world is pretty bad. 15:44:20 franki^, from only my state there are 60k+ engineers are coming out every year 15:44:38 franki^, hehe, you are welcome 15:44:39 -!- sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:44:57 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-104.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:45:08 beach, ok 15:45:08 -!- sharps`` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:45:10 -!- Galen_Nycroft [npzqsb@69.41.179.202] has left #lisp 15:45:27 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-104.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:45:36 kushal: Yeah, the company I work far has its datacentres in India. And I've met several Indians online. It has the largest IT industry in the world, if I'm not mistaken 15:45:41 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:49 s/far/for/ 15:46:35 I mean, I've met several geeks from India online. I've met many Indians in real life too, but none of them were engineers. ;) 15:46:36 franki^, should be , even Mr. Obama is also very tensed about Bangalore and outsourcing in general :D 15:46:52 franki^: largest in terms of what? Number of employees? Revenue? 15:47:12 there are good people , but the education system is creating more and more trouble 15:47:35 can any one here do some online sessions for newbies ? I was telling this few days back, I organize some online IRC based training sessions for students 15:47:51 I need help with that 15:48:45 kushal: pardon me for unethical question, but might I ask how much is "high salaried" job paying out there? 15:48:46 for the last few years I was trying to push the students towards python as it was easier for them catch and understand than is being taught in colleges 15:49:03 udzinari`, high salaried in Indian money though :p 15:49:19 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:49:55 beach: Probably number of employees; it was just something I read in passing somewhere without looking into the details. 15:50:22 udzinari`, $1000 -$2k or $3K with few years of experiences if you are in any big service company 15:50:46 udzinari`, if you are little bit senior then you only have to handle excel sheets 15:51:10 franki^: It is intersting how they convert a bad thing (many people, low productivity) int a good one ("largest"). 15:51:39 ddevaal [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 15:52:51 one example from one such big company, a big solution which handle share market somehow , 15:53:36 one of my friend joined there and found the whole project is written in C++ and C, but no pointers 15:53:55 he tried to write using pointers but the manager said NO 15:54:23 he asked why, manager replied if we try to use pointers then it segfaults :D 15:54:32 Wow! 15:54:33 now can anyone beat that ? 15:54:41 Heh 15:55:00 beach: Well, I guess it's a good thing for some people (e.g. the Indian government) 15:55:11 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-37-45.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:55:15 franki^: Indeed! 15:55:29 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-44-170.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:40 franki^, not good, think if the same guys make software for airplanes , who is going to fly on that ? 15:56:10 franki^: It's just that I consider it my job to teach my students to be productive, and to see the utterly low productivity in the IT industry is making me cry. 15:57:07 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:21 Yes, and yes. I agree with you both. 15:57:40 sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 15:58:48 beach, btw, what is your real name ? 15:59:10 kushal: Robert Strandh. Google it and you will find some interesting stuff. 15:59:25 ok 15:59:36 beach: It seems to me productivity depends foremost on the persons. Of course, companies (of all size) don't trust persons, they want replaceable cogs. 16:00:27 baley: actually, I can see sensibility regarding that manager talking about not using pointers 16:00:30 *beach 16:00:32 pjb: Yeah, but you know, reading about XP is refreshing because it puts people firmly in charge. 16:00:35 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:35 beach, http://www.flickr.com/photos/srichter/2526878703/ this is you ? 16:00:43 rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 16:01:01 kushal: do you know that COBOL and FORTRAN programs don't segfault? 16:01:01 kushal: Yes, that's me. 16:01:12 they don't do pointers :D 16:01:16 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:01:24 that *was* him. now he is 2 years older! 16:01:30 p_l|home, there are many cobol jobs in the market 16:01:36 Xach, :) 16:02:13 p_l|home: yes, but in C it doesn't help: 12["abc"]="you lose"; 16:02:29 Wel, sorry, I used two pointers here. 16:02:53 char abc[]="abc"; char youlose[]="you lose"; 12[abc]=youlose; 16:02:54 it is nice add faces with IRC nicks on memory 16:02:56 koning_robot [~aap@88.159.104.186] has joined #lisp 16:03:12 :) 16:03:19 kushal: isn't there an erc extension to do that automatically? 16:03:42 pjb, I am still in stone age, using xchat 16:03:46 :) 16:04:08 some how from last managing to use slime in a better way :) 16:04:14 sharps`` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 16:04:42 pjb, emacs is still foreign concept for me 16:05:02 I don't know what the engineering disciplines in india are like, but I know some Indian mathemeticians who are very good. 16:05:14 kushal: true, but it's possibly another source of the complaint other than pure PHB's 16:05:25 also, a thorassic surgeon who's very very good. ;) 16:05:31 -!- sharps`` is now known as sharps 16:05:33 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:05:44 does erc provide something like irssi's number-aliases to jump to a window buffer? in irssi, every window get's a unique number from 1..n and you use meta+n to jump to that particular window 16:05:45 Fade, there are good engineers also but less in number 16:05:59 but with such a population I guess that's not surprising. 16:06:13 :D 16:06:18 hehe 16:06:58 Fade, you may like these photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/kushaldas/sets/72157624747233481/ 16:07:06 for population 16:07:09 wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:07:09 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Changing host] 16:07:09 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 16:07:28 -!- sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:07:59 that looks like quite a party. 16:08:26 sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 16:08:39 Fade, that is main road in one of market in my city on a festival :p 16:08:59 you're in Pune? 16:09:05 Fade, yes 16:09:09 *Fade* nods 16:09:10 for my job 16:10:22 anyhow, i've noticed a disproportionate number of very good hackers in the lisp community; my theory is that programmers who find and learn lisp are curious by nature. 16:10:32 ie. the work isn't just a 'job'. 16:11:34 *kushal* runs to cook, will be back after few hours 16:12:27 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:12:39 sharps`` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 16:13:15 -!- rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:06 rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 16:15:09 -!- sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:18:18 Devon [~devon@c-24-6-0-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:12 What's your favorite system building tool? 16:20:12 What's your favorite file system library? 16:21:43 phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:22:04 Why does (setf *bla* '(1 2 3)) complain about *bla* being undefined? Shouldn't that just define it? 16:22:26 works for me 16:22:52 cYmen: No, defining it means using defvar or defparameter. 16:23:18 cYmen: setf-ing an undefined variable is undefined behavior, so naturally implementation-dependent. 16:23:19 Devon: asdf and cl-fad. 16:23:48 Devon: For some value of "works". 16:23:55 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 16:24:06 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:24:16 -!- sharps`` is now known as sharps` 16:24:48 -!- sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:30:33 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 16:33:05 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:35:41 a lot of tutorial material calls setf (setq depending on the age of the material) on undefined variables. 16:35:50 when I first came to lisp, this confused me. 16:35:58 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:36:08 Well, I just encountered it in "casting spels with lisp" 16:36:13 -!- upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:37:07 wrap the form in a let that declares the appropriate symbol as a var, or defvar it first. 16:37:20 me it's fine sbcl only warns it seems 16:37:36 you can't depend on that being the behaviour in all cl systems. 16:38:12 it's just a tutorial... 16:38:17 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host230-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:39:26 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.205.202] has joined #lisp 16:39:29 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:40:54 back 16:42:09 banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has joined #lisp 16:43:33 cYmen: So you are saying "thanks for letting me know; I'll just ignore your advice and use undefined behavior"? 16:45:17 wvdschel_ [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:45:17 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:20 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 16:45:24 beach: in "What is Wrong with Lisp" you mention about sometimes "even" scheme being considered a lisp, i am pretty novice so i am in habit of recognizing a lisp from the easiest way: syntax similarities :) , may i ask the main criterias of a lisp family language should have from your perspective. 16:46:19 erik naggum had a good explanation about that. 16:46:40 kenanb: There is no consensus about such a definition. 16:46:52 -!- logia_th [~nmo@83.40.42.77] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 16:46:52 beach, may I pm ? (not related to lisp) 16:47:04 kushal: if it's quick. I need to leave soon. 16:48:03 kenanb: I haven't looked into Scheme for some time, but the main problem in some earlier version was that there was no standardized translation from external notation to internal structures. 16:48:45 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:49:07 kenanb: So that code such as (a b . (c)) was potentially different from (a b c). 16:49:14 scheme programs still tend to be not-portable between implementations of the same scheme 'spec'. 16:49:57 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:05 anyone here knows any university providing distance learning courses for MS ? 16:52:14 MIT 16:52:33 their opencourseware is comprehensive. 16:52:38 (and free) 16:53:09 but I don't know if you can get any accreditation by following a ciriculum on the opencourseware site. 16:53:39 Fade, that will not be counted :) 16:54:30 the open university in England offers accreditation, but I don't know if they have graduate programs. 16:54:49 I know many British universities do, but I'm not sure if they're available internationally 16:55:19 franki^, any way to find out more info ? 16:55:37 The web? Google? 16:55:37 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:53 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-50-71.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:56:12 I would bet an academy offering distance learning with accreditation would have a web page explaining it... 16:56:25 But perhaps I'm too optimistic. 16:56:47 kushal: What pjb said, you should have a look at the Open University page, and here's an example of the kind of thing I was talking about http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/online/ 16:56:54 pjb, it is very difficult from google results which one is good 16:57:02 franki^, checking 16:57:14 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-37-45.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:57:16 beach: hmm, interesting, i skimmed r5rs before (which was very easy to skim) but haven't realized there was too few about internals since i didn't knew what to expect from a language spec that days, thanks for explanation 16:58:16 kushal: I can't immediately see anything about it, but I think that you have to be resident in the UK for that. 16:58:28 oh 16:58:39 I'm not sure, but that's what I think, sorry. 16:58:46 franki^, ok, np 16:59:17 franki^, I can not leave my job for financial issues, that is why looking for a distance learning course 16:59:47 kushal: Actually, I've also just remembered, I think this place might be worldwide: http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/ 17:00:38 kushal: Yes, I understand. The reason I know anything about this is that I was looking last year as a British citizen resident in Mexico. :) 17:00:41 franki^, thanks , checking 17:01:39 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:03 moah [~gnu@188.109.167.0] has joined #lisp 17:02:44 :) 17:02:50 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 17:02:50 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 17:02:50 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 17:03:08 franki^, http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/taught_courses/information_technology_partnership_with_laureate_online_msc.htm seems to be nice :) 17:05:53 kushal: They send me emails about tha quite often, because I got my BSc from Liverpool, the contact for that course taught me "Introduction to Java Programming". Seemed like a nice guy but the course was incredibly boring. ;) 17:06:05 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.15] has joined #lisp 17:06:48 franki^, ok :) 17:07:13 drdo` [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:07:42 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 17:08:23 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:23 franki^, can you help me to find out course fees in that site ? 17:08:47 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 17:08:56 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:09:38 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:13:21 kushal: Looking not 17:13:25 Oops, now :) 17:13:33 ok thanks 17:13:46 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-052-199.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:55 kushal: Hmm, I can see this: http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/international/money-and-scholarships/pg-fees.htm but it doesn't seem to list that course, or possibly any of the online degrees... 17:15:07 same here 17:16:34 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:16:37 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 17:16:49 warnabas [~warnabas@5-57-251-80.pride-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:17:30 timack [~tim@hlfx64-2a-208.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 17:18:10 -!- warnabas [~warnabas@5-57-251-80.pride-net.ru] has left #lisp 17:18:11 kushal: are you looking into studies in EU? 17:18:18 kushal: Hmm, maybe you'll have to email them or go through the "request more information" procedure. But I fear that this is getting a little too off-topic and I need to have breakfast. Good luck! 17:18:18 franki^, do you know if toefl is required for british universities ? 17:18:22 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:18:29 p_l|home, distance learning 17:18:30 kushal: I think so, yes. 17:18:40 franki^, thanks , bye 17:18:54 kushal: distance learning isn't covered by financing, unfortunately, unless you get any other monetary stipend from somewhere 17:19:20 as for TOEFL, it is used for checking if you know English enough, but isn't required, it's just one of many. 17:19:32 kushal: One last thing: http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/international/countries/english-language.htm 17:19:32 p_l|home, if I do distance learning , I can take care finance issues as I am working 17:20:30 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:53 kushal: by law, as long as the course falls under the general educational laws of EU, they have to accept you on the same rules as "Home student" (someone from the country the university is located) 17:21:07 p_l|home, ok 17:21:36 p_l|home, biggest issue I am facing now is to find a proper course somewhere 17:22:22 kushal: you can try talking with some Scottish universities, especially the ones farther north, if you could adapt some of their distance learning programmes 17:22:56 northern scotland is slightly sparsely civilized in places, afaik 17:23:46 otoh, check with Australia. There's also The Open University, and OpenCourseWare (which isn't a course itself, but covers all necessary material, just won't give you a degree) 17:24:44 what course are you interested in? 17:25:30 p_l|home, computer science or information technology based 17:25:47 computer science and information technology are very different things 17:26:09 looks like somebody is playing with the cmucl list 17:26:19 that's a bit like saying "chemistry and visual arts" or "architecture and music" 17:26:26 What is the difference between (quote name) and (intern "name") ? 17:26:40 georgek [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:40 intern is making a symbol.. is that not what quote does? 17:26:43 Krystof, actually in my country they have some similarities 17:27:04 which ones? 17:27:10 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.109.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:27:21 p_l|home, something like http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/taught_courses/Brochures/Master_of_Science_in_Information_Technology(1).pdf 17:27:21 seangrove: no, quote prevents evaluation of an existing form 17:27:56 ah, ok 17:28:27 So what is it that (quote name) returns? 17:28:27 why IT and not CS? 17:28:56 kushal: well, everyone mixes them, but IT is seriously different from CS courses, at least in UK, afaik 17:29:02 haven't seen IT course in my uni, though 17:29:15 CS seems also better recognized 17:30:25 p_l|home, I am ok with CS also , my graduation is in CSE only 17:30:58 -!- upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:32:38 Computing Science with Engineering title? 17:33:18 hi, I'm working through Practical Common Lisp, and I have a format like (format t "~{~a:~10t~a~%~}~%" cd) that a dolist runs on a 4 element plist -- but the first value in the list doesn't get put in the 10th column, but just one space after the first key 17:33:36 kushal: ah, you want a Master's. Now I understand (had to go back a little) 17:34:27 What's a better way to write (eql 0 (length '())) ? 17:35:14 p_l|home, yes 17:35:23 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.86.117] has joined #lisp 17:35:53 p_l|home, my previous degree was: Bachelors in Technology in Computer Science and Engineering 17:36:06 seangrove: (null '()). 17:36:09 kushal: the thing is, Masters degree is wildly different, especially in UK. You would be better placed to get a sabbatical from your job and go full-time for a year... 17:36:11 or T. 17:36:21 ok, BSc.. argh 17:36:28 thanks pkhuong_ 17:36:34 p_l|home, B.Tech. 17:37:03 p_l|home, ok, but I have some financial issues , that is why I can not go sabbatical 17:37:07 in UK, you can try to get a taught postgraduate course to gain MSc 17:37:19 kushal: Research degrees usually mean funding 17:37:41 p_l|home, ok 17:38:46 syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:43 brb cooking 17:40:12 kushal: in UK, a research degree usually requires a Msc already (so called "taught postgraduate"), which afaik aren't necessarily funded. 17:41:18 however you might get into full postgraduate course (takes usually 2~3 years), which might be funded (for full-time - means a grant from a company or government to work on your thesis) or not (part-time, usually). 17:41:43 such a course would end in PhD 17:41:48 Hey guys, wondering why this isn't working: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116054 17:41:55 kushal: http://www3.open.ac.uk/study/research-degrees/computing.htm <--- have a link 17:42:05 I must be missing something very stupid here 17:42:07 (the whole open university page is relevant to you, though) 17:42:39 seangrove: variables and functions are in two different namespaces. You want to (apply #'list-to-alist ...). 17:45:04 golddog [~liminal@c83-251-38-170.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:45:28 Ah, that's not as basic as I had thought - thank you! 17:45:33 Why are they in different namespaces? 17:45:55 because they are different things. 17:45:58 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:46:04 seangrove: that's how it is in CL. That way you can have a variable named LIST and still use the function LIST. 17:46:14 minion: lisp-2? 17:46:14 lisp-2: is at http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 17:46:20 Ah, I see. That is a bit cumbersome in scheme 17:47:00 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:12 <_3b> georgek: does a ~& at the beginning of the format string help? 17:47:21 hi folks 17:47:39 seangrove: so functions live in the FUNCTION namespace, which is accessed like (function name). #' is a reader syntax for FUNCTION like QUOTE and ' 17:48:02 does anyone know of any code examples for building a UI in cl-gtk2 without using builder? 17:48:04 Interesting 17:49:05 seangrove: see FLET and LABELS, which are like let and letrec, except they bind things in the function namespace. 17:49:11 clhs labels 17:49:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 17:49:14 clhs flet 17:49:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 17:49:35 That feels a tad bit over my head right now :) 17:49:44 fair enough :) 17:50:17 _3b, yes that does! Thanks, I'll look up that directive 17:50:36 <_3b> georgek: that just puts a newline before the output if there isn't one already 17:50:52 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7550ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:55 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@pD9E25F9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:04 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@245-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 17:51:09 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:10 <_3b> georgek: i think the actual problem is a bug in the implementation, are you using sbcl? 17:51:21 ah, yes I am 17:51:24 for Windows 17:52:06 <_3b> georgek: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/309471 is probably it then 17:52:40 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E25391.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:52:43 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 17:52:58 -!- skalawag is now known as a750mhzslinky` 17:53:00 <_3b> it thinks it is printing after the prompt on the first line, so it thinks the first line starts farther to the right than it really does 17:53:29 Not sure how to do this - http://paste.lisp.org/+2HJU 17:53:36 -!- a750mhzslinky` is now known as skalawag 17:53:56 cool, thanks for explaining _3b 17:53:58 first, I want to turn "name" into 'name (intern doesn't do that :) 17:54:10 And then I'd like that function to work :P 17:54:35 It actually does "kind of" work, already though 17:54:42 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-63-120.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:55:01 Lymia [~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan] has joined #lisp 17:55:08 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-50-71.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:55:13 seangrove: symbols are upcased by default. If you don't care about case sensitivity, interning strings yourself in a weak EQUALP hash table is probably cleaner. 17:55:17 <_3b> (defun -> (key data) (cdr (assoc key data :test 'string-equal))) ? 17:56:05 benny [~benny@i577A2E92.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:57:22 pkhuong_: A week equalp hash table? 17:58:15 _3b: That works much better - but still would rather be able to use 'name instead of "name" 17:58:50 <_3b> did you try it? 17:59:24 I tried it with "name", not 'name, woops 17:59:33 Why does that work? 17:59:52 clhs string-equal 17:59:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stgeq_.htm 17:59:58 Thanks 18:00:08 <_3b> 'name is a string-designator for "NAME" 18:00:29 <_3b> (assuming 'name is named "NAME") 18:04:00 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:06 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:34 -!- X-02 [~kohei@p1015-ipbf311kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: IRCStep] 18:08:20 yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:51 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.56.49] has joined #lisp 18:09:51 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:10:16 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:07 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:30 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@245-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:17:26 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-104.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:17:53 nullkuhl_ [~nullkuhl@41.130.7.49] has joined #lisp 18:19:19 merimus [~merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:16 -!- merimus [~merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:22:33 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:26 phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:24:52 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has quit [Changing host] 18:24:52 phrixos [~clarkema@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has joined #lisp 18:24:59 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:27:33 it's a saturday evening, I'm sitting at home ssh:ing into my desktop from my cellphone to kill a runaway sbcl that's locked my ui... i think it's entirely possible that i might be a geek... 18:27:39 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.205.202] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 18:28:19 so ssh responds but not virtual consoles? 18:28:23 lol 18:28:42 pkhuong_: if you don't have working SysRq and X died... 18:28:49 phrixos_ [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:28:52 I'm playing around with cl-gtk2 and basically made an invisible modal window 18:29:13 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:29:21 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:23 using my phone was quicker, I have a bookmark for ssh:ing into my box 18:30:45 connectbot on android is useful :) 18:34:56 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.146.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:50 golddog, you are running cl on an android ? 18:39:08 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@249.252.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:39:18 srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:57 kushal: no, I'm running cl on a ubuntu desktop, I just remote logged into said desktop from my android phone to "killall sbcl" 18:40:10 wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d817621.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:17 hey 18:40:19 golddog, oh ok 18:41:22 quick question: How can I check if something is persistable with read/write? 18:42:08 like '(1 "lol" :foo) -> t, '(1 "bar" '()) -> nil 18:44:07 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-39-68.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 18:44:37 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:54 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:56 <_3b> see if (write ... :readably t) throws an error? 18:45:28 -!- upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:49:38 <_3b> (but note that hash tables might be written with #. or something, so the second could be T also) 18:50:09 -!- halou [~user@intergruas.easynet.es] has quit [Quit: Done for today.] 18:50:40 I have a css-lite problem http://paste.lisp.org/+2HJX 18:50:52 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has joined #lisp 18:51:13 Kerrick [~Kerrick@173-23-121-135.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:50 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:18 *_3b* suspects css-lite isn't writing to the correct stream, or cl-who isn't seeing the output of css-lite 18:54:33 <_3b> maybe wrap the call to css in str, or bind *css-stream* to *snatdard-output*? 18:55:14 ok, I'll try that 18:56:11 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.169.13] has joined #lisp 18:56:40 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:57:01 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:19 georgek_ [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:20 -!- georgek [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:16 I wrapped it in str and it works now. Thanks 19:01:22 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:33 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-39-68.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 19:03:42 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:04:06 _3b: but isnt it kind of inefficient when you have to write the object every time? 19:04:22 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:27 <_3b> probably 19:04:40 ... 19:04:55 *_3b* would just try to write it and handle the error if it fails 19:06:28 metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #lisp 19:06:38 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:42 I use print to write... 19:06:45 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.86.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:08:29 -!- wvdschel_ [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:08:32 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 19:08:44 <_3b> print will error as well if you bind *print-readably* to t 19:09:11 thanks 19:09:30 -!- georgek_ [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:09:37 georgek [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:32 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 19:12:04 <_3b> you might also look at with-standard-io-syntax 19:12:54 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:05 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:15:44 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@173-23-121-135.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:15:53 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:16:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-207-234.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:17:50 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:19:18 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:19:33 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 19:20:49 -!- colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-34-155.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 19:20:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:22:48 *syntard* evals (fact 120), wonders why it doesn't output 120 19:23:18 *_3b* wonders why it would be extected to 19:23:24 hahaha 19:23:43 why would the factorial of 120 emit 120? 19:23:49 natch 19:24:31 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:25:17 it's just such a commont test case (fact 5) = 120 19:25:24 autopilot 19:27:11 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:23 Kerrick [~Kerrick@173-23-121-135.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:21 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@173-23-121-135.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:20 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:30:06 wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:30:06 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Changing host] 19:30:06 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 19:31:30 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:52 should have put (fact (random 120)), then I wouldn't expect anything 19:34:08 meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-063-120.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 19:35:39 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:44 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-052-199.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:35:56 rdd [~user@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:36:48 -!- nullkuhl_ [~nullkuhl@41.130.7.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:39:37 -!- kenanb [~user@95.14.60.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:32 I read: `,@form has undefined consequences. is `(,@(list 1 2 3)) that kind of expression? 19:41:52 ahh, i see, sorry 19:42:40 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.169.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:43:11 nullkuhl_ [~nullkuhl@41.130.7.49] has joined #lisp 19:43:21 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:44:42 wvdschel_ [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:45:58 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:49:18 Vivitron [ad4c080a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.76.8.10] has joined #lisp 19:51:37 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633486.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:52:15 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 19:52:50 -!- wvdschel_ [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:10 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.56.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:21 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-150.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:43 Davsebamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 19:54:19 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:57:31 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:00:15 wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:00:15 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Changing host] 20:00:15 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 20:01:49 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has left #lisp 20:03:02 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:39 -!- jeti [~user@p579A44D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 20:11:13 jeti [~user@p579A44D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:03 _6502_ [4e0cf907@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.249.7] has joined #lisp 20:13:37 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:14:11 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:14:47 <_6502_> is there something like #'/= but working for symbols ? 20:16:38 _6502_: (complement #'eq) 20:16:52 _6502_: (not (eq symbol-1 symbol 2)) 20:16:54 -!- nullkuhl_ [~nullkuhl@41.130.7.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:17:37 I almost never remember to use /=. I just say (not (= ...)) 20:17:52 <_6502_> the nice thing of /= is that accepts any number of values... and returns true if they're all distinct 20:18:25 _6502_: (complement #'eq) is not like that. 20:18:59 very handy though 20:19:10 i mean, /='s behavior 20:19:12 <_6502_> xach: yes i know... it's the same as (lambda (x y) (not (eq x y))) 20:19:52 (defun /eql (&rest stuff) (every (lambda (x) (eql (first stuff) x)) (rest stuff))) 20:20:32 nullkuhl_ [~nullkuhl@41.130.7.49] has joined #lisp 20:20:48 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:21:05 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:22:13 <_6502_> gigamonkey: that's completely wrong, but i got the message... just code it yourself 20:26:02 (= (length x) (length (remove-duplicates x))) ;) 20:26:07 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:26:15 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:26:58 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 20:27:02 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.10.171.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:27:04 kenanb [~user@95.14.60.39] has joined #lisp 20:27:40 auch 20:27:54 -!- jeti [~user@p579A44D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 20:29:54 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:26 <_6502_> (defun /eq (&rest stuff) (cond ((null (cdr stuff)) t) ((find (first stuff) (rest stuff)) nil) (t (apply #'/eq (rest stuff))))) 20:32:32 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:33:06 possibly a little more efficient than my solution... possibly ;) 20:36:21 <_6502_> (defun /eq (&rest stuff) (do () ((or (null (cdr stuff)) (find (car stuff) (cdr stuff))) (null (cdr stuff))) (setf stuff (cdr stuff)))) 20:38:16 <_6502_> uglier but not recursive 20:38:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:39:38 what's bad about recursion? any reasonable implementation is gonna optimize that for tail recursion 20:40:03 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:40:25 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:40:54 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:41:03 golddog: in general, or in this case? 20:42:05 Xach: in the case of a tail recursive function and a lisp interpreter that optimizes for tail recursion 20:42:25 Xach: that is, doesn't build huge stacks just for the hell of it 20:42:47 -!- Lymia [~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan] has quit [Quit: HUGGGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS *boom*] 20:43:14 <_6502_> wikipedia says CL doesn't go (generally) tail-call optimization... scheme does 20:44:24 <_6502_> anyway that function is horrible if the list is huge... so that's a non-problem 20:45:10 <_6502_> for a huge list of symbols i think an hash table would be *much* better (not O(n^2)) 20:45:36 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-104.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:46:07 _6502_: CL doesn't _have_ to optimize tail calls but most reasonable implementations do. But as you say, that point is moot considering the performance of the function to start with 20:47:38 Hey all, I can't seem to get quicklisp to install anything 20:48:23 seangrove: could you clearify that? 20:48:29 golddog: pasting ;) 20:48:45 http://paste.lisp.org/+2HK4 20:49:00 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:49:22 Seems to happen for pretty much any package 20:49:34 have you loaded quicklisp ? 20:49:47 seangrove: probably /Users/sgrove/.sbcl/systems contains symlinks to non-existent files 20:50:34 golddog: I think I set it to autoload 20:50:57 Ah, emacs says "file exists, but cannot be read" 20:51:02 wonder if it's a permissions problem 20:52:02 jeti [~user@p548EAD2F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:22 seangrove: is quicklisp installed to ~/quicklisp or have you moved it? 20:52:22 All the files are owned as root... maybe I sudo'ed when I installed quicklisp 20:52:35 Nope, it's there 20:52:36 that might be one explanation 20:52:52 chown :) 20:52:54 but in ~/.sbcl/systems, all the files have the perms I mentioned 20:53:43 I don't think quicklisp usually puts anything in .sbcl/systems 20:54:37 is it possible that you already installed versions of packages before? 20:54:57 Hmm, it is possible 20:55:02 I'm happy to clear it out though 20:55:12 Is it safe to just wipe the sites and systems dir? 20:55:59 if you start sbcl and run (ql:quickload :split-sequence) does it work then? 20:56:49 No, same problem 20:57:03 Also, those files don't atually exists, they're symlinks to nowhere 20:57:16 as fe[nl]ix suggested :) 20:58:02 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 20:58:10 delete the symlinks then 20:58:14 can't really hurt 20:59:08 seangrove: you can safely delete the entire ~/.sbcl 20:59:28 that's where asdf-install puts things, and you don't need asdf-install any more 20:59:29 Ah, ok, deleted the symlinks, and seems like it worked now 21:00:27 Thanks guys! 21:02:47 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:02:56 MoALTz [~no@92.10.171.11] has joined #lisp 21:03:54 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:03:55 homie` [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:04:00 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-150.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:05:26 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:34 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:16 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-174-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:06:53 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:07:02 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-174-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:07:50 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-98-245-201-232.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:07:56 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:10:05 -!- Nshag [~none@AStrasbourg-151-1-12-135.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:10:35 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:11:40 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:12:37 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:12:49 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-249-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:37 <_6502_> http://paste.lisp.org/+2HK5 21:14:53 <_6502_> hmmm... bad bug 21:16:37 georgek_ [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:37 -!- georgek [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:46 hi 21:24:38 hey dto 21:24:51 how are you? :) 21:25:15 tired! :) 21:25:30 i've just had dinner 21:25:37 and was going to sit down for the evening to do some hacking 21:26:54 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:06 It seems like (read) returns a symbol - what if I prefer to keep the original capitalization etc. from the user input? 21:27:48 clhs readtable-case 21:27:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rdtabl.htm 21:31:26 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:32 or you know... (read-string) 21:32:21 haha, I'm working on (readtable (copy-readtable nil)) :P 21:32:59 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 21:33:02 you probably want :invert, and be careful when you output symbols. 21:33:29 looks like (read-line) is what I wanted 21:33:49 usually is :) 21:35:03 -!- syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:35:22 Whenever I get an error in slime, and I'm looking at the list of options available and backtrace, can I inspect the variables at that point? 21:35:36 TomJ- [~tomj@89.241.148.58] has joined #lisp 21:36:04 seangrove: press enter on a stack frame. If you compile with optimized debug, you'll get even more information about local values. 21:36:19 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.241.155.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:37:56 Very cool :) 21:38:13 syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:07 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:40:30 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 21:40:36 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:40:56 wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:40:56 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Changing host] 21:40:56 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 21:43:03 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:45:10 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.106.90.2] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:45:51 bgs100_ [~ian@h176.39.28.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:35 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:46:41 -!- bgs100_ [~ian@h176.39.28.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:46:49 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:58 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:53:09 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:51 urandom__ [~user@p548A5817.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:29 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-207-234.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:05:52 -!- nullkuhl_ [~nullkuhl@41.130.7.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-43.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:09:49 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.102] has joined #lisp 22:11:25 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.102] has quit [Client Quit] 22:13:19 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:17:10 aDuck [~aduck@bl13-129-160.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:18:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-206-125.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:19:27 you can recompile when on a frame by using C-u C-c C-c and then restart the evaluation and presto, more debug 22:19:29 So, I want to setup a mailing list for each of my projects when I'm done cleaning up and documenting them. Any suggestions for a mailing list hosting service in particular for lisp projects? gmane?... 22:19:32 it is like magic! 22:19:45 Hexstream: I like groups.google.com. 22:20:17 Ah, that could be a good idea. It's a mailing list as well as a usenet group?... 22:20:45 Hexstream: not a usenet group. just a mailing list with also a web interface. 22:21:05 Ah, then it is exactly what I was looking for it seems. Thanks! 22:21:14 Hexstream: I've used it for 3 projects so far and it works pretty well. Though I might have to start some better spam checks. 22:21:16 I always thought that had to do with usenet. 22:21:52 There must be a "moderator" option? At first I expect my lists to be quite low-volume... 22:22:20 Anyway, I should check this in detail and see for myself :) 22:22:35 Is cliki down? 22:22:39 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 22:23:23 drdo: 22:24:04 hehe 22:25:13 -!- superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 22:26:13 I was pretty happy with all the web stuff I could use for Quicklisp. Code is on github, mailing list on google groups, files on Amazon S3. I used google docs for some internal tracking. 22:26:25 -!- nha [~prefect@2001:6f8:1c57:24:219:d2ff:fe2a:1d01] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:26:37 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:38 It's a great time to be a programmer!! 22:29:02 adn if you're starting a company and need Microsoft software you can get *all* of it for $100 22:30:23 *Xach* now needs free hardware 22:31:20 Xach: not that hard, actually 22:32:20 p_l|home: I haven't had as much luck as I'd like. 22:32:32 hardware prices are quite low, and you can now get flexible pricing on servers. Though if you want cheap power, owning or renting a datacenter is still the best (being cheaper than Amazon, at least) 22:32:36 Speaking of google services, I finally decided to start using Google Reader. I'm tired of being constantly out of touch with things I care about like Planet Lisp and/or stupidly trying to check manually and going too much or not enough. Incredible the simple things I can fail to do for so long to make my life better. 22:33:04 I'm quite unhappy with hardware, seems like everything is disposable, made to last 1 or 2 years 22:33:18 And made out of the cheapest junk they could find 22:33:44 yeah... fucking economics. 22:33:50 p_l|home: I just want something on which I can run a half-dozen test VMs for Quicklisp environments. 22:35:07 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:35:20 My old Dell Dimension 8300 from 7 years ago, that I use every day, is still going strong. I'm baffled that my HD is still alive with all the HD click of death stories I hear. In fact it sometimes looked like it was going to die but it survived. So not everything lasts 1 or 2 years ;P 22:36:06 :) 22:36:21 Hexstream: I must be really bad at picking laptops 22:37:01 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:37:36 I never used a laptop but I seem to understand that they tend to be more brittle than their desktop counterparts... and/or they have to face more "challenges", let's say. 22:38:10 Xach: get a server board, Opteron (4 core should be enough) and a bunch of memory. The newer ones don't need ECC nor registered modules, even 22:38:13 I wouldn't be able to get by without a laptop, i sit in a train for at least 2 hours everyday 22:38:37 use Linux KVM with KSM enabled. 22:38:55 should run more than a dozen of VMs :) 22:38:58 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 22:39:14 tech.coop might have some idle time available? 22:40:54 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:43:37 -!- p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:45:36 all the time spent not running cliki 22:45:56 -!- _6502_ [4e0cf907@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.249.7] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:46:07 Edward_ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-12-254.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:50:40 Zhuangzi [~user@unaffiliated/zhuangzi] has joined #lisp 22:51:18 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E25F9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:53 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:11 wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:53:11 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Changing host] 22:53:11 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 22:54:02 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: XChat has encountered a problem and needs to close] 22:54:16 tcleval [~funnyguy@187.114.115.30] has joined #lisp 22:54:16 Good thing I naively trust Google cuz I'd be getting fucking insane right now. 22:54:30 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:32 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:03 -!- meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-063-120.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 23:06:38 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu291.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:06:47 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has joined #lisp 23:12:08 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:14:14 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:15:19 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:55 -!- jeti [~user@p548EAD2F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:21:10 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:32 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 23:26:33 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 23:27:30 Anyone here go to the 2007 ILC in Cambridge, England? 23:28:39 how ? time travel tickets ? 23:29:55 homie: uh, just simple use of this construct we call "the past tense" 23:30:23 I was there, why? 23:32:57 Was it good? 23:33:07 This year's was pretty grim. 23:33:21 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5817.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:22 Stanford in 2005 was, in retrospect pretty good. And I hear that last year's was great. 23:33:29 But last year's was a bit of a special case. 23:34:52 it was pretty good. great location, a bunch of relevant talks, and lots of after hours pub touring 23:35:30 not universally good of course, there were at least a couple of wtf talks 23:36:11 -!- LaPingvino is now known as Kad_uzante_la_ko 23:36:28 -!- Kad_uzante_la_ko is now known as Kad_k_LaP 23:39:05 Hum. I'd hate to be irrelevant but wouldn't past tense be "Anyone here 'went'"?... 23:39:29 koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.104.186] has joined #lisp 23:39:34 Hexstrem: did you go to school to learn that? 23:39:35 actually there's just a "did" missing from the start of the sentence 23:39:36 attended, went, has been to 23:39:37 Hexstream: The "did" is sometimes implicit in colloquial english. 23:39:42 Or did you went to school? 23:39:43 "anyone go to" is pretty common colloquialism for "did anyone go to" 23:40:00 wow 23:40:01 OliverUv: Ah, I was unaware of that. 23:40:01 I think colloquialism is the word I'm looking for, but I'm not sure. Please advice. 23:40:04 pkhuong_: really? Seems to me like an important word to drop... 23:40:18 pjb: think as in "anyone see bob?" 23:40:38 could mean either did anyone or does anyone, either works 23:40:41 And if I don't see it, I won't answer. 23:40:42 Anyone know how to write properly? Oh yeah, now I see how that makes sense. 23:40:46 gigamonkey: look what you did (: 23:40:49 -!- koning_robot [~aap@88.159.104.186] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:40:53 Oh wait, that's present tense. But anyway. 23:40:53 Hexstream: yeah exactly 23:40:59 same principle 23:41:03 ......ithink 23:41:04 *gigamonkey* is pretty sure he knows how to write properly. 23:41:12 iConsume there iAm 23:41:13 dropping words that are implied by the sentence structure is one way that grammar evolves 23:41:13 in lisp 23:41:21 fucking 21st century man 23:41:28 jsnell: Or regresses ;P 23:41:32 s/there/therefore/ 23:41:35 e.g. in colloquial finnish you sometimes drop the negation 23:41:42 gigamonkey: but obviously not unambiguously... 23:41:51 jsnell: really? cool 23:41:54 Hexstream: feel free to go back to the cave and complain about how fire is bad 23:41:55 jsnell: Like the brits? "I could care less." 23:41:55 can you give me an example 23:42:08 Should I fire the missile? You fire it! 23:42:12 ah i hate that one, Hexstream 23:42:14 jsnell: But fire was an amelioration. 23:42:18 gotta love how a grammar argument will out-traffic any relevant discussion in a given channel on irc :P 23:42:18 Hexstream: about negation? 23:42:32 lol 23:42:32 Dropping words randomly serves no good purpose o_o 23:42:32 golddog: haha 23:42:40 Hexstream: yeah it does 23:42:46 speed of communication 23:42:47 Saving bandwidth? 23:42:51 pjb: the present tense interpretation also fills in a missing word; interpreting the question as referring to an event in the past has the obvious advantage of being semantic as well. 23:42:55 saving keystrokes more like, drdo 23:43:10 OliverUv: I am obviously joking :) 23:43:17 oh 23:43:19 Would we be having this boring irrelevant discussion if nobody dropped words randomly for no purpose and then tried to justify the unjustifiable? 23:43:19 pkhuong_: well, perhaps not amongst geek, where the notion of time machine is much more probable. 23:43:44 Hexstream: on the contrary I think it is a nice discussion, although I've had it about a bajillion times before 23:43:46 Hexstream: it's arbitrary, but far from random. 23:43:47 OliverUv: the examples would only make sense if you knew finnish 23:43:55 jsnell: ah, too bad 23:43:57 Hexstream: just out of curiosity, are you a native English speaker. If so, where from? 23:44:21 Dad's part of my family is all finn, but he moved here when he was 7 so although I've always heard him speak finnish to his parents, I've never learned it myself 23:44:27 For example, in the last three days, the time machine meme was present, on three different occasions. 23:44:27 here being Sweden 23:44:30 I'm in Terrebonne, near Montréal, Québec, Canada. First language is French, second is English. 23:44:37 pjb: would you have been confused if I had written "Anyone here know Lisp?" 23:44:42 Is there an official standard for English anyway? 23:44:57 Today, someone found in a 1928 Chaplin movie a woman holding a GSM phone. 23:45:08 drdo: thankfully, no. 23:45:35 http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_162-20021132-10391698.html?tag=pop 23:45:37 pjb: wow! women know how to time travel!? 23:45:47 gigamonkey: Goes to show the ambiguity, if "Anyone here know Lisp?" could be interpreted as present or past tense... ok, maybe not in this specific example because of the context, but in general. 23:45:57 Well, she doesn't look quite feminine, could be as well a disguised man... 23:46:00 or ET. 23:46:04 gigamonkey: People trying to write programs to interpret natural language aren't thankful! 23:46:30 gigamonkey: but, worry not about the education system in Quebec; as far as I can tell most people are taught to understand how you southies speak ;) 23:46:33 Hexstream: but with a strong bias for present. 23:46:47 Hexstream: past tense? eh? 23:47:20 gigamonkey: you know, if Lisp died, or in case of amnesia. 23:47:25 OliverUv: haha, close enough. instead of saying something like "kukaan ei juokse" (nobody runs) you could drop the word for negation ("ei"), ending up with a construct that would make no sense according to standard grammar, but that will be understood in the same way, since no other interpretation would make sense 23:47:37 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 23:47:37 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 23:47:40 Is there a reason I can't do (cons "n" . #'(lambda () (format nil "text"))) ? 23:47:43 I don't understand how you'd parse that sentence so it'd be in the past tense. 23:47:53 arbscht: any luck with that second audio file? 23:47:56 jsnell: ah yeah, I sort of get the spirit of it then yeah 23:47:59 What if somebody knew Lisp in 1980 but didn't use it since that time? Then they'd no longer know Lisp, to some extent, especially practical. 23:47:59 ,() 23:48:05 seangrove: yes, because it's illegal. 23:48:07 seangrove: remove the . 23:48:20 ah, I didn't notice I had put that there 23:48:29 Yup, that did it 23:48:34 Hexstream: I understand how someone could know list in the past. I don't understand how you can parse "Anyone here know Lisp" as a question about the past. 23:48:48 The error message was pretty weird though, I didn't realize it would have anything to do with the . 23:48:54 Does it have some special meaning? 23:49:16 gigamonkey: hi, somewhat. the sound is richer, but the clipping on it is pretty bad (consistent crackling at louder sounds). so I've only transposed the audience interjections into the first track 23:49:30 seangrove: that's because you actually wrote (cons "n" . (function (lambda () ...))), which is equivalent to (cons "n" function (lambda () ...)). 23:49:30 If you make weird errors, you're likely to get weird error messages. 23:49:34 gigamonkey: so, what about ilc2010 was particularly dire? the program? 23:49:44 arbscht: Cool. I'm thinking that if you want to run it on your podcast, that'd probably be fine. 23:49:59 This is not the final go ahead but unless I think of some good reason not to, I'll let you. 23:50:07 so . reduces the paren nesting by one level? 23:50:19 No. 23:50:22 Are you actually arguing ambiguity in natural languages? I thought it had been established that they are ambiguous 23:50:23 (a . b) is a cons cell. 23:50:26 gigamonkey: alright. I'll hold on until you give the word 23:50:30 lists are implemented as chained cons cells. 23:50:37 gigamonkey: I thought you were the one saying that "Anyone here " could be interpreted as present or past tense... but anyway. 23:50:38 (1 2 3) is (1 . (2 . (3 . nil))) 23:50:38 seangrove: lisp works on s-expressions, so all the error reporting is in terms of s-expressions, not the syntax used to write them. 23:50:40 jsnell: low turnout, lots of marginal papers 23:50:59 Hexstream: nope, that wasn't me. 23:51:01 Ah, makes sense 23:51:07 seangrove: there are no parentheses in lisp code. 23:51:17 whatsoever. 23:51:25 gigamonkey: Yeah, I suck at mass IRC discussions, sorry. 23:51:35 gigamonkey: I'll link you to a version of the track with lots more noise, dead time and tics cleaned up if you want to review that. it's shorter by a few more minutes and generally easier to listen to. 23:51:54 jeti [~user@p548EAD2F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:14 pjb: You mean they're just being used to represent s-exps? 23:52:20 even eliza and parry have more useful discussions. why don't we change the subject 23:52:27 seangrove: yes, it's an external representation. 23:52:40 seangrove: the actual lisp source is made of sexps, which are atoms and cons cells. 23:52:40 gigamonkey: ah. how many people were there? 23:52:46 seangrove: Read the indentation and think about the structures. 23:52:59 Don't try to count parentheses. 23:53:11 Hexstream: Yeah, I never do taht really 23:53:20 I think I heard there were about 50 registrations. But it was co-located with SPLASH so some of the people (Pascal Costanza, for instance) spent most of there time elsewhere. 23:53:22 Good ;) 23:54:02 gigamonkey: did some person from SPLASH come to ILC? 23:54:03 There's a real grammar error ;P 23:54:05 paredit``` 23:54:16 gigamonkey: ouch, I think 07 had something like 3 times that. I can see that the networking aspect would be pretty lame then 23:56:41 pjb: well, I think you'd have to pay specially for ILC so nobody should have just wandered in. 23:56:45 Not that anyone was checking.