00:07:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:09:36 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002191d92796-CM001bd7135e0a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:02 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@83.57.60.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:19:38 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002191d92796-CM001bd7135e0a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:24:27 dblanchard_ [824c2017@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.76.32.23] has joined #lisp 00:26:57 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:25 italic, you mean, like C-a c ? 00:33:01 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-132-210.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:33:20 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-162.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:33:38 Fare: yes, that screen, not exactly lisp but related to deployment 00:33:39 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-32-94.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:31 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.91] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:35:41 <`3b> italic: you want to change the behavior of hunchentoot when run under screen, or just configure its logging in general? (or are you asking something about screen itself?) 00:36:08 -!- dblanchard_ [824c2017@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.76.32.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:38:01 its about screen itself, if anyone has been able to change the logging dir (#screen is dead) 00:46:51 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:48 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-210-24.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:56 <`3b> ah, in that case, all i know is what it says under 'chdir' in man screen 00:50:12 <`3b> (not that i know much more about hunchentoot :) 00:51:18 yeah, i found that. im trying to avoid another config file, but i don't see another way. oh well 01:00:04 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 01:03:17 package question! does anyone know defpsmacro ? 01:03:59 <`3b> that doesn't look like a package question 01:04:00 I believe the people who tried to make CLOS for Parenscript might know, but then parenscript changed and screwed things up 01:04:01 wait... nvm. something else is wrong. 01:04:24 yeah i was thinking that PS macros are not shared across packages for a moment there 01:04:46 defpsmacros dont seem to be recognized across packages or something, since i have moved some code around 01:05:29 <`3b> symbols are the only things in packages, ps shouldn't care what package the symbol is in 01:05:47 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:04 *`3b* guesses you aren't using the symbol you think you are 01:06:21 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:39 naw, i didnt change the code, only moved it... its definately trying to 01:06:59 i am poking around parenscript code to see what i am missing the understanding of in order to clarify 01:07:10 <`3b> moved it within the same package? 01:09:00 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 01:10:01 ok the macros work for sure in the same package they are defined.. but (package:macroname) does not seem to work in PS code 01:10:02 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 01:10:50 this is why i thought there would be a seperate list of ps macros per package but that is silly because the symbol which holds them belongs to parenscript as you said. 01:10:59 *`3b* would expect it to work, hard to say what is wrong without a test case 01:11:09 yeah. me too =| 01:11:14 maybe they should be exported... 01:12:09 <`3b> well, if 'does not seem to work' means you get a reader error, yes 01:13:50 oh here we go. they had to be exported. you are right to treat me as a newbie 01:13:52 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:14 ,clhs export 01:14:30 *`3b* is not treating you as a newbie, rather as someone who isn't providing enough information to help usefully :p 01:14:55 ahh, sorry =) it may have been because i did not have enough information myself 01:15:09 <`3b> well, you have the code and error messages :) 01:16:11 there were no errors =) it simply dumped the JS with the function call "newLayer(...)" rather than what the macro would have replaced it with. =) 01:17:03 <`3b> so you had foo:new-layer, with new-layer not exported from foo, and got no error? 01:17:35 it was plain (new-layer ..) 01:17:53 but since i have moved that code out of the package, it thought it was a plain JS call instead of macro to expand 01:19:00 *`3b* still can't tell what you did and what happened, but i guess if it works now, that is good enough 01:20:03 package A has ps code, outputs fine. package B has ps code which uses ps macros from package A, which did not expand since they were not exported from package A. 01:20:33 anrope [~penguinec@cpe-72-224-218-65.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:37 <`3b> ok, so not using the symbol you thought you were as originally guessed :) 01:20:46 right =) 01:26:07 Hi there. I'm having a strange issue running some lisp. http://pastebin.com/tA27FB3y. Between the loop's first and second calls to run-simulator, the values of pos goal seem to be changing, and I can't figure out why. Can anyone tell me? 01:26:32 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:59 chaslemley [~chaslemle@c-24-98-193-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:06 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:28:37 <`3b> why not use LOOP vars instead of let and setq? 01:29:11 <`3b> or dotimes instead of loop i guess 01:29:29 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:02 *`3b* guesses the problem is something in run-simulator destructively modifying things it shouldn't 01:30:56 <`3b> clhs time 01:30:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_time.htm 01:31:01 <`3b> ^ you might also find that useful 01:32:39 <`3b> clhs with-open-file 01:32:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm 01:32:43 <`3b> ^ and that 01:33:04 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:33:17 <`3b> and stylistically, use SETF instead of SETQ, and don't put ) on lines by themselves 01:33:59 <`3b> LOADing a lisp file like that seems a bit odd as well 01:34:00 the calls to get-internal-run-time are working fine. I don't understand how something in run-simulator can change the value of goal or pos 01:34:19 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-137-83.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:34:40 <`3b> it can't change the binding, but since they are bound to lists, the contents of those lists can be changed 01:35:01 ahh 01:35:02 okay. 01:35:16 <`3b> right, get-internal-run-time works, but is more verbose, and TIME usually provides more information 01:35:59 <`3b> with-open-file is more important though, currently you leak files if there is an error anywhere in the body of that LET 01:41:45 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 01:41:59 I used copy-list to pass goal and pos, and they still get changed? 01:42:17 -!- chaslemley [~chaslemle@c-24-98-193-145.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:42:43 <`3b> clhs copy-tree 01:42:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cp_tre.htm 01:44:42 <`3b> if you only copy the outer list, it will still contain the same inner lists, so changes to those will still be visible in the original list 01:45:55 `3b thanks. 01:52:51 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 01:53:10 -!- xristos is now known as Guest10635 01:54:49 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:54:59 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:01:48 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:02:19 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:04:02 kenanb [~user@95.14.60.39] has joined #lisp 02:04:18 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:04:49 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:10 btbngr [~btbgnr@212.183.140.50] has joined #lisp 02:07:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:08:45 *syntard* /help 02:09:23 syntard: you're too vague :P 02:09:39 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:47 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 02:09:50 :) 02:10:06 *syntard* --help 02:10:34 -!- kenanb [~user@95.14.60.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:05 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:12:26 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 02:12:32 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Client Quit] 02:12:54 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:12:54 Why'd they deprecate :test-not in tree-equal? 02:13:15 _danb_ [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:13:16 <`3b> since you can use :test and COMPLEMENT 02:13:22 -!- pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:13:27 pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 02:13:31 I'll try something 02:13:54 <`3b> i think most people ignore the deprecations in the CL spec 02:14:01 *btbngr* doesn't 02:14:38 although with no sign of a new standard any sign soon, it's not really anything other than a personal taste thing 02:14:49 time* 02:16:10 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:22 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:39 msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has joined #lisp 02:20:57 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:01 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 02:21:09 *syntard* tries to understand :TEST and :TEST-NOT were both supplied. 02:23:20 <`3b> clhs 17.2.1 02:23:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm 02:23:50 <`3b> 'consequences are unspecified' 02:24:02 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:11 <`3b> that ambiguity is probably another reason for deprecating :test-not 02:24:18 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 02:25:36 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25:45 -!- jabb [~grue@71-94-31-166.dhcp.reno.nv.charter.com] has quit [Quit: bbl] 02:25:51 -!- codemonkeyx [~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:26:24 codemonkeyx [~codemonke@87.230.79.34] has joined #lisp 02:27:30 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:28:12 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:42 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:29 I pasted something, did you see it? 02:32:32 -!- hohum [~dcorbe@8.17.5.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:35:03 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:36:14 <`3b> the list (2 3) is made of the conses (2 . (3 . nil)), so when you use it with tree-equal the :test sees the NIL 02:36:18 hohum [~dcorbe@8.17.5.13] has joined #lisp 02:36:31 <`3b> (and lisppaste doesn't announce pastes into the channel currently, you need to paste the link by hand) 02:37:01 doesn't throw the error with '= 02:39:00 <`3b> because that fails after the first comparison 02:39:09 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:39:10 xinming [~hyy@115.221.11.55] has joined #lisp 02:39:12 <`3b> since 1 and 1 are =, and you use :test-not 02:39:39 <`3b> try passing a lambda that prints out the arguments before doing the comparison 02:39:49 all right 02:40:32 quodlibetor [~user@user-12lc7vm.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:39 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:42:50 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.3.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:42:59 -!- hohum [~dcorbe@8.17.5.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:47:51 hohum [~dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:12 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-221-165-176.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:50:20 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:51:16 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.160.101] has joined #lisp 02:51:33 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.82.56] has joined #lisp 02:53:00 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:32 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:53:49 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 02:55:48 -!- btbngr [~btbgnr@212.183.140.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:56:53 -!- hohum [~dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:58:23 konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 03:00:01 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.160.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:00:16 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:00:20 qbomb [~qbomb@65.183.103.213] has joined #lisp 03:00:40 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:00:41 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:00:43 hohum [~dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:47 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@65.183.103.213] has left #lisp 03:02:24 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-126-87.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:03:02 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-118-41.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:04:33 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-190-2.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 03:07:04 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:08:11 -!- jimmy_sjtu [~jimmy@2001:da8:8000:e192:225:b3ff:fe76:3140] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:11:51 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:56 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:15:21 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.9] has joined #lisp 03:16:19 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-190-2.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:16:25 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cdxazegngobgudph] has joined #lisp 03:18:10 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:18:26 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:19:27 cl-net will be down for ~1 hour 03:19:42 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cdxazegngobgudph] has left #lisp 03:20:03 -!- quodlibetor [~user@user-12lc7vm.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:37 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-puzvzareacaojyal] has joined #lisp 03:22:04 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.9] has left #lisp 03:24:10 grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:11 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-143.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:26:14 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:27:26 -!- grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:27:43 grumpy` [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:52 -!- grumpy` [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:29:05 grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:42 paste is on cl-net? 03:31:47 drewc: Replacing the old software with something based on your new ftw experiments? 03:33:11 redline6561: nay, moving the physical server to a new datacenter 03:33:22 drewc: Cool. How much is a VPS with tech.coop anyway? 03:33:26 syntard: yes, paste.lisp.org is on the same server 03:33:57 drewc: Sorry. It's on the site. Ignore me. :) 03:34:29 redline6561: those prices are waaay out of date! 03:34:44 drewc: I was wondering. 1 Gig of transfer? Ouch! :P 03:35:29 redline6561: 32 bit servers based in the US run $10 per 256MB RAM / mo + $0.25 per 1GB disk 03:35:46 bandwidth is plentiful 03:36:16 drewc: What about 64 bit? 03:36:22 symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:51 we have 64 bit servers in the UK, but it's on our 'premium' vps platform which is significantly more expensive 03:37:03 I see. Is it still extra for SBCL? 03:37:07 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 03:37:30 for shared hosting, sbcl is $10 / mo. For a VPS, we don 03:37:39 't, and can't, control what you install 03:37:46 you have root, after all. 03:37:59 drewc: Cool. That's where I was confused. 03:38:42 the website is years out of date, but we're currently re-vamping the whole hosting side of things, so these are prices we've yet to announce 03:39:25 drewc: Well, I've got two VPSes in different timezones at the moment but if I need a third in the future or things go badly I'll come calling. 03:39:46 redline6561: no worries, we've got plenty! :) 03:40:08 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 03:42:44 what's normal shortcut for Backspace? 03:43:25 in emacs 03:44:44 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:45:54 Does SBCL use UTF8 as the default character encoding? 03:46:04 I'm serious. is anybody really to delete char backward? 03:46:09 symbole: SBCL I think depends on th locale setting 03:46:17 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:46:32 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:38 syntard: I think it's , but I am unsure - Emacs is old enough to have issues with it 03:46:46 p_l|home: Is that a behavior of most lisps? 03:47:07 symbole: not necessarily, but it's the correct behaviour on Unices 03:47:32 *syntard* will stick to for now 03:47:44 (windows is slightly different because an application is either unicode or not) 03:48:29 symbole: internally, SBCL uses 21-bit unsigned integers for strings 03:48:49 I see. So I can count on a library trivial-utf-8 to convert whatever is the internal representation to UTF-8? 03:49:09 like trivial-utf-8 03:49:23 hmmm... I don't remember, exactly, but you can specify encoding of a stream, iirc 03:49:44 and there's babel for more complex stuff. However, UTF-8 should be available as built-in 03:50:46 don't remember how, at the moment, as I try to run an UTF-8-only system for half a decade now 03:50:50 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:28 p_l|home: Alright. Thanks. 03:52:35 By the way, common-lisp.net is down. 03:53:07 i had just noticed that ~5 minutes ago 03:53:42 it's being moved 03:54:02 I was able to get the libraries from qucklisp though :) 03:54:06 was announced ~30 minutes ago 03:54:18 symbole: quicklisp has separate tarball repo 03:55:07 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:51 that'll teach me to be late the the party 03:57:19 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:57:35 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:58:42 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:03:54 -!- az [~az@p5796C76A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:06:49 longkid [~longkid@113.22.215.99] has joined #lisp 04:07:03 hello all 04:08:47 -!- longkid [~longkid@113.22.215.99] has left #lisp 04:09:16 That wasn't long... kid 04:10:54 az [~az@p5796C026.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:34 grumps: ? 04:15:53 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:38 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 04:27:24 p_l: sorry - i've been away 04:27:27 que pasa? 04:28:09 p_l|home: ? 04:28:11 mac banks and ginger pasa 04:28:50 lol 04:30:56 xan_ [~xan@FL1-118-109-67-75.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 04:36:33 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-puzvzareacaojyal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:37:16 grumps: just checking regarding this line: 04:56 < grumps> that'll teach me to be late the the party 04:37:33 ah, now I see, I missed the previous line from you 04:38:01 *p_l|home* needs also to dismantle his thinkpad and cleanout the keyboard... #\e starts malfunctioning 04:38:04 there's a party? 04:38:20 schmrkc: cl-net being down 04:38:25 hoh 04:39:01 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-15-21.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 04:40:39 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has joined #lisp 04:43:26 i guess gigamonkeys.com on cl-net as well 04:45:31 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:46:11 *syntard* wonders how to acces nth of a vector 04:46:22 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has joined #lisp 04:46:25 -!- italic [~italic@cpe-74-77-219-209.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:46:59 syntard: AREF ? 04:47:24 schmrkc: thanks 04:47:30 syntard: you might like ELT 04:48:37 schmrkc: how do they compare performance-wise? 04:48:45 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:48:49 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:50:20 syntard: you should use svref 04:50:28 schmrkc: sometimes my brain halts, can't do simple things 04:50:46 hi, what are the uses of MEMOIZATION but fib and parsers? I mean, I only see the fib example here and there, I d like to see more examples of how to use memoization 04:50:54 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ogkigdmnegqiwvfc] has joined #lisp 04:51:39 derrida: well, is that going to be faster than (cond (= cases? 04:52:05 *derrida* looks at syntard 04:52:50 syntard: you're trying to acces an index of a vector? 04:52:57 *access 04:54:32 derrida: just going through sicp, it uses long names, and there's a cond list 5 lines long, the cases are from 1 to 5, decided to use vector 04:55:06 right, and I'm doing it in CL 04:56:01 derrida: I quiz for no reason 04:57:45 syntard: I think it's all of tech.coop which hosts cl-net as well as gigamonkeys.com 04:58:12 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:58:57 Is the transposition of a permutation of a matrix the same as the permutation of a transposition? 04:59:08 gigamonkey: well, I'll just ask here, little difference :) 04:59:15 ok, the servers are on the rack and just about to be powered up 05:00:15 drewc: do eet 05:00:28 :> 05:01:44 No math geeks in the house? 05:01:56 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 05:02:27 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Client Quit] 05:02:35 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 05:02:40 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Client Quit] 05:02:46 gigamonkey: I think it's not, but I didn't exactly do any permutations on matrices 05:03:47 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 05:03:47 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 05:03:47 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 05:03:52 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Client Quit] 05:04:41 aifnord [~aifnord@79-133-4-112.bredband.aland.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:38 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:06:21 can anyone please point me to Memoization use cases? I see a lot of fibonnaci functions using memoization, but I really would like to see other use cases :-) 05:06:45 I googled around but cant find much more uses for memoization 05:06:48 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 05:07:43 tcleval: you can do a kind of easier-to-understand dynamic programming by writing an obvious recursive routine and memoizing the results. 05:07:56 tcleval: In CL? 05:07:57 Though doing bottom-up "classic" dynamic programming can be even more efficient. 05:08:11 tcleval: PAIP has some stuff on memoization 05:08:46 *gigamonkey* is planning to write about that for http://www.codequarterly.com once he finishes writing everything else he needs to write for the first issue. 05:09:04 gigamonkey: if transpositions are commutative, then the answer is yes 05:09:24 actually I mean memoization in general.. not only CL. The technic aplication is what I am looking for 05:10:46 http://bit.ly/c7TfkW - Page 44 has an example of fibonacci, factorial, and then generalizes both of them (very cool). Examples are in JavaScript. 05:11:24 thx symbole 05:11:32 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:11:52 gigamonkey: very cool concept, btw 05:12:02 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 05:12:21 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:17:32 tcleval: consider monads, they memoize 05:21:17 Ah, I guess paste.lisp.org is down too? 05:21:41 anyone can suggest CL functions to calculate pascal triangle 05:21:43 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 05:22:44 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 05:23:01 What the heck. I have some code that uses a macro that expands to a with-open-file. If in the body I pass to the macro I say (write-line "xxxx") I'm fine. If I say (write-line "xxxx" out) where out is the variable bound by with-open-file I get a "deleting unreachable code" note from SBCL. (1.0.41) 05:24:08 Grrr. If I hand expand my macro, no problem. 05:27:25 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 05:27:50 -!- aifnord [~aifnord@79-133-4-112.bredband.aland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:28:24 -!- BeardedOctopus [~The_Engin@cpe-065-191-063-233.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:29:15 gigamonkey: ISTR some recent changes that might affect that. can you try .43? 05:29:16 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:31 Ah, SBCL is smarter than me. I forget a while clause in a loop so it was infinite. Bah. 05:30:33 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:30:56 I must have been wrong about not having a problem when I expanded the macro. 05:32:13 -!- grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:32:41 cl-net is back 05:33:06 and so is the rain here 05:33:19 drewc: I assume that's the whole VPS. So gigamonkeys.com should be coming back on line? 05:33:28 gigamonkey: nice observation, smart compiler 05:33:58 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:35:52 how do I add zero at both ends of a list? 05:36:06 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:36:10 (append (cons 0 list) '(0)) 05:36:17 Though you really don't want to be doing that. 05:36:22 gigamonkey: should be 05:36:27 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:36:41 drewc: can't ping it or ssh in 05:37:00 gigamonkey: i want to though, but that's not the way? 05:37:20 gigamonkey: looking 05:37:22 andares [~andares@weldorm-pat.netcom.duke.edu] has joined #lisp 05:37:56 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:07 hmm, funny, is there a quick reverse operation? 05:40:23 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:34 syntard, reverse ? 05:40:41 kushal: presto 05:41:08 syntard: and nreverse if you don't mind destroying the original list. 05:41:28 Though it is mostly used in the push, push, nreverse idiom. 05:41:44 gigamonkey: ok, but this time I want to mapcar list (reverse list) 05:41:44 syntard: I guess the question is, why do you want to. 05:41:59 (Ah, you asked about the Pascals triangle before, right.) 05:42:03 :) 05:43:09 I'm glad my reasoning is familiar 05:44:06 gigamonkey, btw, is there any story behind your nick ? 05:45:08 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:45:35 Good morning everyone! 05:46:03 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 05:46:07 beach: hi 05:46:14 beach, good morning 05:46:35 beach: Good afternoon 05:46:38 syntard: I don't think you really need to build a new list just to add 0's. 05:46:54 kushal: it goes along with my domain. 05:47:25 gigamonkey, yes , but why that name ? 05:47:30 gigamonkey: I only need to cons 0 up front 05:47:58 gigamonkey: i'll paste my alg when done 05:48:01 randa [~lordnikon@11.49.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 05:48:36 kushal: originally a friend and I were going to start Gigamonkeys Consulting ("you can hire a billion monkeys, or you can hire us.") 05:48:43 We never did but I kept the name. 05:48:53 And now, ocassionally do work myself as Gigamonkeys Consulting. 05:48:57 hehe, thanks for the info :) 05:49:13 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:50:22 ignas [~ignas@88-222-145-120.meganet.lt] has joined #lisp 05:52:09 -!- ignas [~ignas@88-222-145-120.meganet.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:52:11 syntard: is this homework or are you just playing around? 05:52:56 gigamonkey: self-improvement 05:53:11 How someone totally new to programming should start learning Lisp? 05:53:21 who never did any form of programming 05:53:56 books (available online): Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation, How To Design Programs 05:53:56 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.86.117] has joined #lisp 05:54:18 syntard: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116005 is my solution. 05:54:43 kushal: also, get a crash course in Emacs and SLIME, preferably also a crash course in Unix 05:54:44 p_l|home, ok, I was thinking of HTDP omly 05:54:53 * only 05:55:07 kushal: Gentle Introduction got wonderful section on evaluation rules etc. 05:55:08 p_l|home, ok, we teach the basics of linux system anyway 05:55:23 as well as on datastructures 05:55:27 ok 05:56:44 later on, when you get some hang of programming, I recommend Introduction to Algorithms (Cormen et al), also for some advanced lispery look into "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming". You might also want to crossreference your knowledge with Practical Common Lisp (available online) 05:58:24 p_l|home, I organize one online summer training every year for students , http://wiki.dgplug.org/index.php/SummerTraining , from next year want to introduce them to lisp rather than python 05:58:45 Mn [~form@219-70-161-110.cable.dynamic.giga.net.tw] has joined #lisp 05:59:21 I was a die hard follower of python but now changed the religion :D 06:00:29 kushal: then I suspect getting PCL on board might be useful, nothing brings people aboard like practical application, though Gentle Introduction is quite good introduction to programming in general. HTDP is quite good, but it's been long time since I've skimmed it, so I can't vouch for it. 06:00:31 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:00:58 kushal: make sure you show them Quicklisp et al, so there wouldn't be "it doesn't have libraries" 06:00:59 I liked PCL :) 06:01:04 *beach* doesn't think religion is a good reason for using a programming language. 06:01:34 beach, true , but I thought python can help me to solve any problem in a better way 06:01:37 which I was wrong 06:02:10 gigamonkey: nice, mine is of course more naive http://paste.lisp.org/display/116006 06:03:59 syntard: When you have an `if' without an `else' branch, you can replace it with `when'. This has the addditional advantage of avoiding the `progn' 06:04:19 beach: cool! 06:04:24 syntard: And CL not being Scheme, we are allowed to call our arguments `list' as opposed to `lst' 06:05:03 beach: I'll call it call/cc then 06:05:35 syntard: Furthermore, there is a general rule in programming that one should use the most specific construct that will do the job. In your case, that means you should replace (- n 1) by (1- n) 06:05:53 syntard: and (> n 0) by (plusp n) 06:06:00 beach: that's a great theory, when one's aware of those 06:06:04 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:06:12 syntard: What do you mean? 06:06:34 beach: wasn't aware of 1- existence 06:07:02 syntard: That's why I am telling you. I assumed that you posted your code for people to comment on it. Was I wrong? 06:07:22 ignas [~ignas@88-222-145-120.meganet.lt] has joined #lisp 06:07:31 beach: of course not, that's great 06:08:02 beach: i did actually think to myself, hmm, is there a sub1 or something 06:10:58 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:13:50 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 06:13:51 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 06:13:51 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:14:45 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 06:16:32 syntard: and you don't need to quote 0 06:16:58 gigamonkey: that's great 06:18:10 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:39 is there anything loop can't do? 06:18:54 Please everybody. 06:21:26 But it tries, it tries 06:22:30 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:24:07 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 06:25:07 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:38 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 06:25:50 i'll dream of loop 06:26:18 foot controlled lisp dance thing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdlfQERedQI 06:26:33 sorry for the blurryness 06:29:39 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:30:57 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:34:23 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:35:05 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.86.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:35:31 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:36:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@FL1-118-109-67-75.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:40:53 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:43:55 -!- randa [~lordnikon@11.49.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:44:30 -!- sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:44:56 sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has joined #lisp 06:48:18 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:52:10 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:52:58 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:53:23 good morning 06:56:32 -!- sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has quit [] 06:56:41 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:57:21 morning 06:57:52 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:58 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:02:40 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:05:03 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:05:30 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082AE43.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:26 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-83.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 07:06:30 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:07:28 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:09:17 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082BA0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:10:52 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:11:38 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:12:30 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:15:39 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-2-148-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:07 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:43 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-148-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:20:12 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 07:27:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.198] has joined #lisp 07:30:23 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:35 tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:34:48 lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-0-158.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:35:12 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-200-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:17 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:35:22 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-200-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:45 what's a lisp/scheme dialect/implementation that can wrap and call C functions nicely? 07:36:42 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 07:37:25 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-200-122.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:37:29 ECL. 07:37:34 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-200-122.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:37:52 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:38:04 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:40:46 Zhivago: this looks like the ticket, thanks:) 07:45:10 lewis1711: well, other implementations can call C functions through FFI (using CFFI library) 07:45:49 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:45:52 *other common lisp implementations 07:46:30 basically I will need to call C libs in a loop and do this quickly, so it needs to have minimal overhead and preferrably be "nice" 07:47:14 what does it mean to "be nice"? 07:47:18 in this case? 07:47:41 have an API that's not horrendous. have you ever tried to build a python extension in C, for example? 07:48:10 ECL compiles lisp functions to C functions so it plays well with others. 07:48:25 yeah, am reading the manpage for it 07:48:28 looks good 07:49:24 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:49:29 lewis1711: I gave up and used Pyrex instead of directly accessing Python's C API :D 07:49:50 On the other hand, ECL's compiler isn't that great, so ... 07:50:05 Anyhow, you'll have to evaluate it for yourself. 07:50:19 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:50:36 p_l|home: ha:D even pyrex/cython is probably about the speed of an interpreted lisp.. 07:51:42 tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:51 lewis1711: a recent discussion on this channel sparked my interest in building a bytecode-based CL implementation that doesn't have certain issues of CLISP (license! fugly memory management code that makes baby Cthulhu cry!) 07:52:11 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:52:39 it would be definitely a more worthy endeavor than MKCL 07:53:18 and I figure the interpreter and GC could fit (code only, not datastructures) in 32kB if done right 07:53:39 which would give quite possibly a faster bytecode than CPython :D 07:55:06 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zaxeyxntvucqfmri] has joined #lisp 07:55:41 it seems a bit contradictory. ppl seeking speed aren't going to look at bytecode implementations anyways 07:55:43 hohoho [~hohoho@p021285.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:56:01 mal__: still, *reasonable* speed is a bonus 07:56:16 mal: Doesn't logically follow. 07:56:22 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:56:28 mal: Bytecode can be faster than native code in some cases. 07:56:41 Think of it as essentially being a compression technique. 07:56:52 also, at <32kB, it would fit into most modern cpu's L1 cache 07:57:11 Zhivago: yeah I know. forth in its threaded code implementations with various optimisations come to mind. 07:57:53 Zhivago: still, pace the sufficiently smart compiler/interpreter, I think my statement stands in general. 07:58:40 mal__: VLM had decent speed thanks to treating "interpreter" the same as "microcode" and optimising the shit out of it (sorry for swearing, but VLM's source impressed me) 07:58:47 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:59:37 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-200-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:59:46 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-200-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:00:18 I really liked the trick with multiple entry points per function (iirc, boxed and unboxed variants of functions were the same, unboxed simply meant the jump was offset past unboxing code, and various other tricks like that) 08:00:33 randa [~lordnikon@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:00:48 that's fairly standard for Lisps, even the compiled ones 08:01:38 where did you get a hold of VLM source? 08:01:41 mal__: true, but imagine what it did to poor binary translator (which used C as intermediary) 08:02:15 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:02:15 mal__: more like reverse engineered it - according to what I found, it was written in assembly from the start using a custom toolkit running on Genera 08:03:55 still, I had this idea of a public-domain, multithreaded, bytecode-only lisp. 08:04:09 well, using C as intermediary isn't the problem. No one says you have to map lisp functions to C functions. Some scheme implementations translate to C in a continuation passing style, ala Baker's Cheney paper. 08:05:34 yes, chicken scheme. What I meant about binary translator is what was used for the snap4 port of VLM2 to Linux/amd64 08:06:46 which was a custom CL program that read the Alpha binary, generated C code, which was then patched and recompiled on Linux 08:06:47 yeah I'll try to get the snap4 one working for me again one of these days. seems it doesn't like some recent changes to X 08:07:07 I didn't know that. cool hack. 08:07:10 poor IDA got tangled trying to read the resulting binary 08:07:17 it worked surprisingly well 08:07:40 funnily enough, there's a port of VLM2 to PPC, an official one 08:08:10 they do pick out the CPUs with a future when they do official ports 08:08:21 the thing is, it got to point where it could be somewhat used few years after the target platform got abandoned (unless they provide an AIX port...) 08:08:30 mal__: when they picked Alpha, it had future 08:08:39 true 08:08:55 it's not like anyone expected future owner of Alpha to be an intel sycophant 08:09:12 hmmmm not really true 08:09:15 rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 08:09:23 there were reasonable business considerations to drop alpha 08:09:41 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:29 mal__: I'd say dropping an existing product for something that wasn't even shown to work yet, while all other interested parties either kept their designs running till Itanic sailed or were involved in making it (HP)... doesn't say much good 08:10:34 are there any characters that are legal inside a symbol name that cant start it off? 08:10:53 dmiles: afaik none 08:11:29 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 08:11:57 p_l|home: thank you 08:12:04 mal__: Alpha was also surprisingly the only non-x86 implementation of windows that was apparently interesting enough to reach windows 2000 08:13:22 alpha was a tough sale. One project I was involved in at the time had to choose between alpha and sparc at the time for a fairly large server park. alpha ran rings around the suns and all the tech people wanted alpha. mgmt went with sun. 08:14:32 mal__: was it after or before Compaq took over? 08:15:25 cause I had heard enough about Compaq sales team to understand why 08:15:47 good question. around that time I think. the sparcs were ultrasparc III and the like. Just before I think. 08:15:48 tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:56 (it's kinda why I like to buy from Dell instead of Lenovo or HP) 08:16:17 DEC had just turned around from their love affair with WIndows and were again running huge ads they were a Unix firm 08:17:10 mal__: apparently before Compaq took over, buying from Digitial was easy if you knew what you wanted - all you needed was send a Purchase Order with numbers from the catalogue and wait for delivery. When Compaq took over, you had to fight sales team for everything 08:17:17 but the sales team was a pleasure to work with and very professional. their POC was better, their performance was better and they were cheaper. 08:17:25 ah 08:17:27 so before 08:17:45 but mgmt didn't trust the future viability. turns out they were right and I was wrong. 08:17:57 heh 08:18:13 if it was just before then it might not be surprising (I mean, COMPAQ???) 08:21:15 also, apparently iPaq was supposed to be a Linux PDA before Compaq took over 08:21:57 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757a87.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:09 syntard_ [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:18 -!- syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:23:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:23:34 and the abundance of linux pdas nowadays shows what a good idea that would have been :) 08:24:07 well, Android is running quite nicely... 08:24:29 but I do wonder how it might be different if iPaq had linux instead of WinCE 08:24:42 AFAIK iPaq brought quite a difference to PDA world 08:24:52 ipaq came out 10 years ago 08:25:08 I don't think the linux software ecosystem was mature enough then 08:25:35 besides, I've used an ipaq briefly. It was OK. 08:25:46 tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:53 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:25:57 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:26:05 mal__: frankly speaking, WinCE ecosystem wasn't much better 08:26:32 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 08:26:41 maus [~maus@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:54 Good morning! 08:29:32 especially since most PDAs with WinCE required a different UI 08:34:05 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:32 -!- lewis1711 [~lewis@125-239-0-158.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #lisp 08:38:03 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 08:38:07 (truthfully, regarding the bytecoded lisp, I simply want an excuse to implement a GC and bytecoded VM xD) 08:40:36 p_l|home: usually people need excuses to *not* do something 08:41:16 jdz: this one is an excuse not to do something else 08:41:42 so I was even looking into possibly incorporating it into any kind of coursework :D 08:41:59 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:42:09 hmmm it's one of the problems in the forth and scheme world that now comes to plague common lisp. everyone wants to implement their version instead of doing something useful :) 08:42:51 mal__: that's why I spent some time checking if it would bring anything *new* instead of "yet another implementation" 08:43:05 and well, it's easier to move implementations around these days 08:44:32 especially if the new one would have certain APIs built in a specific way (like incorporating bordeaux-threads, usocket/iolib, CFFI etc. as the code becomes available) 08:44:46 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:45:26 shootnewton [jsqesf@69.41.179.202] has joined #lisp 08:45:42 also, making it public domain would allow for easy sharing of code 08:45:59 I'd like to at least make the GC into a form that could be reused 08:46:25 -!- Guest10635 [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:46:28 -!- shootnewton [jsqesf@69.41.179.202] has quit [Client Quit] 08:47:32 mal: You can do useful things in C++ or python. :) 08:48:44 Zhivago: I never denied that :) I find the C++ spec a wonder of baroque ingenuity. 08:48:58 ... 08:49:09 Zhivago: although I'm not smart enough to grok Koenig lookup rules. 08:49:10 please... don't make me see it again... 08:49:30 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 08:49:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 08:49:30 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:50:21 i hae spent probably about 8000 hours of my life trying to implment common lisp .. but less than 500 using it 08:50:51 erm to qualify that 500.. way way less doing anything usefull 08:51:05 dore [~dore@athedsl-206764.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:52:03 so i kind of am agreeing with mal__ ;( 08:52:39 lol 08:53:10 I have to confess I'm tempted too. A common lisp based on parrot seems cute. 08:53:16 even at this moemen i am create a version of lisp fully implmented from prolog 08:54:05 colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-69-45.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:54:25 The point is that while you can make useful stuff in almost anything, you can't have fun reimplementing almost anything :) 08:54:30 though twice i merged ECL and SWI-Prolog into the same data objects.. so neigther has to ever limit their performance to call into each otehr 08:55:16 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-83.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 08:55:43 hehe Zhivago 08:56:11 *mstevens* is hoping someone reimplements clojure without the JVM, but that's probably a topic for another channel :) 08:56:33 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:56:33 mstevens: clojure was not origially written for the JVM 08:56:47 tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:50 dmiles: I stand by my comment 08:56:53 it was written for CLR 08:57:00 mstevens: why? what I've seen of clojure makes it a fairly run of the mill lisp with as main attraction access to the java libs. 08:57:11 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 08:57:34 mal__: I like the clojure stuff but don't want the legal entanglements of a JVM 08:57:43 *dmiles* runs clojure on CLR.. havent tried it on JVM yet 08:58:04 -!- dore [~dore@athedsl-206764.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:58:07 mstevens: should be fairly trivial to implement clojure ARC style as a bunch of macros above CL 08:59:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:59:33 hmmm oracle really has started something with suing google is people are that afraid of legal entanglements 08:59:50 it'd be nice just to make reader macros to make clojure looking code hit ACL jlisp interface 09:00:16 (erm Allegros jLinker API i meant) 09:00:56 their jLinter API is java centric .. but it canj be any OO language 09:02:04 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 09:02:36 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:06:11 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:07:41 El-Dorado [~nurlan@109.127.27.206] has joined #lisp 09:08:53 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu213.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:08:57 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:09:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:10:53 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 09:11:56 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:13:05 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:15:25 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ogkigdmnegqiwvfc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:00 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:22:57 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-049-241.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:14 -!- El-Dorado [~nurlan@109.127.27.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:28:53 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fftdvwyaphykyphh] has joined #lisp 09:30:01 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu213.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:32:55 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:34:16 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:34:17 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-85-249.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:34:39 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 09:34:40 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-162.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:36:10 -!- colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-69-45.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:37 colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-69-45.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:41:23 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:42:37 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:43:12 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:42 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:44:43 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:52:10 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:53:37 Do #lisp members agree that (sublis '((1 . a) (2 . b)) '(1) :key (lambda (x) (if (numberp x) (1+ x) x))) should evaluate to (b)? 09:53:41 El-Dorado [~nurlan@109.127.29.1] has joined #lisp 09:54:28 Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-95-220.w90-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:54:41 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 09:55:04 sublis? used in anger? 09:55:29 mal__: ? 09:57:13 beach: just that sublis is one of these functions I've never found an opportunity to use in real code 09:57:53 but reading the spec, I agree it should be (b) 09:58:17 -!- El-Dorado [~nurlan@109.127.29.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:59:27 -!- pavelludiq_ [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:01:41 clhs export 10:02:01 humasect: minion doesn't seem to be here 10:02:30 hm=) 10:03:22 there is probably a better way with slime, i think i have a local copy of hyperspec 10:03:37 if you're using slime, put point anywhere but a symbol and C-c C-d h export 10:04:18 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DEFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:21 El-Dorado [~nurlan@109.127.29.189] has joined #lisp 10:06:48 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:13 ah thanks, that is quite cool - but i will fix it later =) 10:13:06 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:20:25 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:21:48 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:24:14 sharps, can you tell me how to setup slime with local copy of hyperspec ? 10:26:58 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:29:20 For CLSQL, is there some OO way to associate objects? Eg a table people, a table hobbies, and an N:M relation. 10:29:50 Is there some way to automatically get the N:M record if I have a people and a hobby instance, and save them? 10:30:45 you mean does it provide views ? 10:30:59 i think it depends on the backend 10:31:07 No, I understand the views. 10:31:10 if it is say postgresql yes 10:31:42 I can get from some person to the hobbies - that's just a virtual column, :db-kind :join 10:32:12 I'd like to say "associate this hobby with this person", without specifying the foreign keys, primary keys, or intermediate relation 10:36:10 like in a alist ? 10:36:24 or hashtable ? 10:37:14 that would be lisp layer not sql i think 10:38:06 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:06 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-162.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:32 <_8david> homie: the question is whether clsql has facilities to help set up a table for an n-m-association without the programmer having to invent a table name himself, and allowing easy access from an instance of either side to the instances of the other side. 10:38:36 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-162.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:38:49 No ... I have a table person, and a table hobby. These are related by person2hobby, which has just the foreign keys 10:39:26 _8david: The *read* access is not a problem. CLSQL has :target-slot, which allows traversing m:n relations (I hope, haven't tried it yet) 10:39:54 But what's missing (for me now) is a setf method on the virtual column. 10:40:26 Example: the person table has a virtual column "»hobbies", which (on read) returns the related objects from table hobby. 10:40:28 -!- anrope [~penguinec@cpe-72-224-218-65.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:40:37 <_8david> ok. (I can't answer the question, because I don't know clsql.) 10:41:03 <_8david> Obviously all good ORMs support this kind of thing. 10:41:05 guh, i think i can't anwer that question too 10:41:09 But there's no (setf »hobbies) defined ... so I can't simply (push (»hobbies person1) (make-instance 'hobby ...)) 10:41:37 Well, of course I could use defmethod myself ... I just wanted to know whether that already exists 10:42:00 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p021285.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:42:02 CLSQL has most of the needed information, and would perhaps just need a flag to make a setf method too 10:42:05 heh, read the clsql manual then 10:42:37 or wait until one proficient in clsql enters 10:43:59 I looked into the manual ... but didn't find anything related. 10:45:28 *_8david* thought people stopped using def-view-class sometime early in the 00s 10:46:26 -!- El-Dorado [~nurlan@109.127.29.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:47:01 atude [~shouyu@173-162-208-165-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:23 Is there a reason I should use lisp instead of haskell? 10:48:09 if you like it better 10:48:27 that is one of the best reasons. 10:48:52 I would have no reason to go off of. I cannot make that decision yet 10:49:03 I figured someone here would have experience in both 10:49:07 I seek advice 10:49:12 God telling you to do so is the best one, but it's a rare occurrence 10:49:26 I don't do any drugs 10:49:46 I do practice C though and have a book on natural language processing in lisp 10:49:58 and have the school of haskell book 10:49:59 just use them both and decide for yourself, I don't think anything else makes any sense really... but shrug 10:50:32 xan_: what is your reasoning for this? 10:51:15 <_8david> many people here have experience with both, but language comparisons aren't on topic in a channel dedicated specifically to either of those languages. Let's talk Lisp in #lisp, and Otherlanguage in #otherlanguage. 10:51:18 if you don't know the language you cannot possibly judge whether anything I tell you makes sense or not 10:51:22 so it's pointless to ask that kind of thing 10:52:49 xan_: well think I miscommunicated the context. My goal is to study language, compilers and algorithms. I don't want to spend so much time doing something which can be done more efficiently with another language or toolset. For example, why learn Java for system programming, that's a waste of time completely. 10:52:58 I just need some insight, that's all. 10:52:59 _danb_ [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:53:09 I don't want to make mistakes many others may or may not have made 10:54:06 lisp is pretty good for all those things you mentioned 10:54:22 certainly the best I know, but I'm biased :) 10:54:38 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:48 xan_: why is that? :) 10:54:58 atude: Java can be quite good for systems programming, though. But I find Lisp definitely better suited to compiler or algorithm study 10:55:04 why is what? 10:55:26 kushal: no, sorry. I use a remote copy, and emacs-w3m to acces it. 10:56:18 xan_: Java is a language designed to constraint a programmer in hopes of lowering the amount of bugs caused by mediocre programmers with powerful tools. Or just extremely bored half-insane entry-level programmers who have to make 42nd screen for an application 10:56:47 mmm... ok, but why are you telling me that? 10:56:58 atude: sales pitches are readily available on the internets 10:57:05 xan_: why are you biased? 10:57:15 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:57:37 cmm: I want to know peoples experiences first hand and hope that others may refute the idea 10:57:38 atude: I like lisp very much and I'm in the #lisp channel, I'm bound to be biased towards lisp 10:57:50 xan_: my question is why? 10:57:51 xan_: yours and atude's "why is" questions blended together in my eyes 10:57:55 'why?" 10:58:10 atude: use what I addressed to xan_ :) 10:58:42 p_l|home: I don't care for java though 10:58:58 also, might be interested in reading the comic on landoflisp.com as well as the music video... for a bit of "_why style" introduction. 10:59:06 I'm interested in lisp and unfortunately haskell 10:59:14 I hate that I know these two 10:59:29 why the hate? 10:59:39 atude: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ read that 10:59:46 *p_l|home* was *veery* happy that this year he finally has haskell in coursework 11:00:03 Edinburgh guys are lucky, they've got more language and algorithms work 11:00:05 p_l|home: because I have to make a decision :p 11:00:14 atude: learn both 11:00:24 I don't have enough time 11:00:27 I actually solved an impasse in my learning of CL thanks to Haskell 11:00:33 the more I focus on one, the better I'll become 11:00:38 There's also a new http://landoflisp.com/ book out, any opinions? Looks vaguely toylike to me. 11:00:42 atude: learn them in small pieces, especially by writing some small useful tools. 11:00:57 drforr: it's a specific kind of book, I'm planning on getting it though 11:01:00 p_l|home: hmm, I suppose you're right. Soo many things to learn 11:01:37 so far all Lisp books I own where nicked from CS dept. :D 11:01:44 atude: especially the first chapter will be relevant to your current conundrum I believe 11:02:02 I'll keep that in mind. I translated PCL to .epub format for reading on the subway, I don't think this book will be as amenable to reading on a Sony PRS. 11:03:44 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-172-161.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 11:04:42 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 11:06:24 drforr: have you read any of the old-style "home computer" magazines, the ones full of Basic and assembly listings? 11:07:23 xan_, p_l|home: thank you :) 11:07:24 *p_l|home* loves how one of the examples is classified as "most violent example ever in programming textbook" 11:07:32 *ever put 11:07:59 I *subscribed* to /Nibble/ and /Creative Computing/. I wrote a version of /Hunt the Wumpus/ that was on a toroid :) 11:08:07 <_danb_> Grand Theft Wumpus 11:08:40 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fftdvwyaphykyphh] has left #lisp 11:08:58 He really needed Ralph Steadman to do the artwork for that chapter :) 11:11:09 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.82.56] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:12:46 the comic is awesome as well 11:13:16 and I wonder what amount of crack one has to use to program a midi keyboard with meows 11:14:27 -!- atude [~shouyu@173-162-208-165-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 11:16:34 (then label it "(piano solo)") 11:21:02 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:26:38 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757a87.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:48 gds` [~nnnuser@zenit.dh.bytemark.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:33:52 -!- gds` is now known as gds 11:36:01 -!- msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:37:17 makks [~makks@p5DE8E6BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:21 hiho 11:37:59 I am trying to install manardb but: 11:38:14 manardb ?? 11:38:23 what is thaat ? 11:38:35 manardb_20090911_1604/src/mtagmap.lisp 11:38:37 {B0309F1}>: 11:38:38 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-162.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:38:38 ;Symbol "MREMAP" not found in the OSICAT-POSIX package. 11:38:45 http://cl-www.msi.co.jp/projects/manardb/index.html 11:40:26 tobik [~tobik@p54893006.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:53 well basically I am looking for a persistent storage solution for my app... any suggestions? I dont really wanna go down on raw sql... 11:40:56 it is already explained on that some that the posix interface may not be unique even between linuxes 11:41:16 so instead of using mremap you'd use munmap and mmap 11:41:39 but doing so will require you to make changes to manardb's sources locally 11:41:48 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:41:50 damn 11:41:53 or have to define 11:41:59 err 11:42:09 aliases for mremap or so 11:43:10 wait 11:43:40 i'm not sure if that page implies that, but my system has surely mremap as i can find it in the manpages 11:44:41 do you maybe lack some packages on your system or distro ? 11:45:11 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-109-124.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:45:26 and i'm not sure even if mremap existed on your system if osicat itself is providing that 11:45:43 did you look at osicat's sources, grepped for it or so ? 11:46:12 I got it too 11:47:10 the way I understood it mremap is a kernel function, that osicat should make accessible? 11:47:18 yes 11:47:23 but osicat didn't so... 11:47:50 it must be either osicat's failure or something is just not working as intended 11:48:20 is the symbols really not found or was it just not exported ? 11:49:02 how do I test that? 11:49:07 is your implementation giving credit to symbol case ? especially when it is "" quoted ? 11:49:32 you'll have to go into the source dir of osicat 11:49:37 and grep for that symbol 11:49:57 or look at the file which it contains and look there if it exported as such 11:50:14 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:50:33 its not in the osicat source 11:50:41 aha 11:50:43 ok 11:50:53 is the osicat source recent ? 11:50:59 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 11:51:06 osicat_0.6.0 11:51:15 I just installed it with asdf-install 11:52:02 how difficult would it be to just add mremap to osicat?^^ 11:52:30 I am looking at posix/linux.lisp right now and that looks simple, or highly abstracted 11:54:12 i only see mention of it in posix/packages.lisp posix/unixint.lisp and in posix/wrappers.lisp 11:54:38 mentioin of what? 11:54:59 linux.lisp just contains a definition for syscall 11:55:08 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:55:10 mention of mremap 11:55:14 i got the git sources 11:55:17 git clone git://common-lisp.net/projects/osicat/osicat.git 11:55:30 hmm 11:55:38 will try with that 11:55:47 ok 11:57:00 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:59:51 running 12:00:46 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:00:48 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:57 compiled successfully 12:02:36 ok so it was just old code lol 12:02:51 dont know if it really works yet 12:02:59 test it 12:03:10 I am about to 12:03:17 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:57 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:06:18 Joreji_ [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:08:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:08:32 urandom__ [~user@p548A51DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:35 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:48 first of all I will have to understand how to use manardb 12:09:58 since the example doesnt make sense to me 12:11:22 I also dont see where the persistent part comes in 12:11:28 ok, i'll have a look later on manardb, i'm just too tired todo anything, just chillin now 12:11:30 lol 12:11:43 cool man 12:12:06 I am at work actually, should do other stuff too :D 12:12:22 but its hard to program java if you can hack lisp 12:12:43 lisp is more dense 12:12:59 the other way around for me 12:13:04 lol 12:13:18 I didnt mean what is easier but what is more fun 12:13:24 ah ok 12:18:51 *Xach* adds manardb to the next quicklisp 12:19:01 whats quicklisp? 12:19:13 makks: it's a way to get lisp libraries easily. 12:19:26 http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ has some info. 12:19:42 better asdf-install? 12:20:17 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:21:15 makks: Sort of. 12:22:07 asdf-install seems a little bit whacky to, even tho it works really well in 90% of my cases 12:22:17 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:19 ahhh, spatial-trees has gone missing 12:22:19 +me 12:22:36 makks: by all means, if it works, use it. 12:24:14 My experience was not nearly so close to 90% 12:25:36 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:32 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:31:25 -!- randa [~lordnikon@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31:56 asdf 2.010 released, btw 12:32:05 ok so manardb does not seem to work^^ 12:32:08 please update your implementations / foo 12:32:26 damn what now 12:33:38 Fare: why bother? 12:34:03 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:51 Hmm, I haven't gotten "The CC environment variable has not been set in SB-GROVEL" until today. 12:34:55 *Xach* wonders what he's done wrong 12:35:09 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:35:42 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:43:18 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 12:44:17 The value -1216929792 is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 32) 12:44:20 sweet 12:44:27 now I know exactly what to do... 12:44:40 makks: ...email the author of the failing project. 12:44:48 if that author is you, email yourself. 12:44:54 haha 12:45:21 makks: backtrace? 12:45:59 p_l|home: I think I will just give elephant another try, beta software is not feasible for a lisp newb like me 12:46:02 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:01 aww screw this 12:47:28 makks: I haven't had good luck with elephant either. What are you trying to do with elephant or manardb? 12:47:51 I want some persistent database 12:47:57 but not raw sql 12:48:18 phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:48:33 makks: rucksack 12:48:36 -!- Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-95-220.w90-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:48:42 manardb is *very* specific 12:48:46 to store and access users, search indexes, or maybe a message board later on... 12:48:54 o minion, where art thou? 12:49:26 somebody tell makks about cl-store 12:50:47 makks, stassats wants you to know about cl-store. 12:51:08 ok, but minion was faster! 12:51:28 Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-95-220.w90-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:54:24 cl-store seems to be unfitting 12:54:42 since it isnt a database 12:55:02 um, what kind of database do you need? 12:55:08 cl-memoization ? 12:55:28 something hash-table like 12:55:40 you could easily write a transaction file for your data or objects, and just use RAM while running for example. 12:56:30 use ram yes, for the whole database? no! 12:56:49 maybe cache stuff, I already wrote a cache. But I have a really low end server 12:56:57 cl-perec 12:58:05 plob 12:58:22 carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.185] has joined #lisp 12:58:22 makks: rucksack uses a cache 12:58:35 I think I will rely on my filesystem, sounds solid to me 12:58:52 then cache "requests" with mtime 12:59:19 ucl+p 12:59:23 longkid [~longkid@118.68.216.208] has joined #lisp 13:02:45 makks: make sure to call fsync before you complete your transaction :p 13:03:14 transaction safe isnt even that important for me 13:03:52 I aint a bank 13:03:53 a transaction can be considered the minimum amount of writing to avoid data corruption 13:04:01 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:04:54 you may not think you are until you have a thousand pissed off users who can't log in because your password file got corrupted 13:05:07 just sayin 13:05:10 a thousand users! 13:05:18 I cannot submit new paste. Does anybody know why? 13:05:38 Xach: it's a very hypothetical thousand 13:06:04 you don't need a thousand users to feel the pain. just consider a bad day ending with data loss because your box crashed :) 13:06:15 even twenty users can cause a lot of grief to a single developer 13:06:26 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu213.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:07:25 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 13:07:56 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:08:09 data recovery is one of the reasons that keep me from embracing rucksack 13:08:31 rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-221-165-176.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:14 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 13:10:25 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:53 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:59 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11:00 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:25 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 13:11:41 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:12 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:13 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:13:42 -!- Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-95-220.w90-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:15:25 dlowe: what if every users password is stored in a seperate file? 13:16:12 makks: you're taking what I said too literally 13:17:25 -!- longkid [~longkid@118.68.216.208] has left #lisp 13:17:38 you are not seeing my vision 13:17:54 ext3 is pretty darn transaction safe imho 13:18:14 ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-198-115.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:21:21 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:24:38 -!- maus [~maus@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Bye bye!] 13:25:51 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.232.251] has joined #lisp 13:26:50 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:10 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:28:19 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:28:22 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:29:29 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:03 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 13:30:18 anybody wrote ode to loop?/ 13:31:53 -!- syntard_ is now known as syntard 13:34:43 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:35:51 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:18 _danb_` [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:38:22 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:38:27 -!- ponce [~ponce@rps7623.ovh.net] has left #lisp 13:38:35 syntard: you can be the first 13:39:14 Xach: this sounds like you're trying to recompile sb-posix or such instead of loading the implementation-provided version 13:40:19 Xach: ode to loop in loop keywords, executable! 13:41:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:41:51 drdo [~user@194.210.228.14] has joined #lisp 13:42:41 syntard: a very good idea. make it so. 13:42:41 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 13:43:28 *gigamonkey* thinks he lit a LOOP spark last night that has blown syntard's mind 13:44:02 syntard: perl and unix commands shouldn't have all the fun 13:44:50 -!- hypercube31 [~hypercube@66.90.18.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:44:55 gigamonkey: I think it's profound to gather iteration philosophy in one macro 13:45:43 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633486.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 13:45:52 gigamonkey: what other philosphies can be wrapped in such way? 13:46:02 *syntard* is about to think 13:46:16 first an ode to loop, then one to series, finally iterate 13:46:17 thinking in 10... 9... 8... 7... 13:46:22 ;) 13:46:59 *Fare* fixes some major GCL breakage, unhappily too late for 2.010 13:47:00 but work interupts 13:47:02 gigamonkey: I heard you gave talk about CL history and how it came to be or something around that, are you going to make that available? 13:48:56 I think to understand CL, you need to have seen Tevye shout "Tradition" in Fiddler on the roof... 13:50:01 drdo: I'm working on it. Actually arbscht is working on it--he's trying to clean up the audio a bit for me. Once that's ready it'll go up somewhere. 13:50:41 I thought I heard someone mention a microphone problem. Was there initially to be a microphone? 13:50:51 I wonder how the audio of the videos will be without one. 13:51:24 Dunno. I recorded my own audio twice, one with a tie-clip mic clipped on me and the other with just a recorder set on "conference" mode. 13:51:55 arbscht: cleaned up one but I think it was the tie-clip version so you couldn't really here the audience interjections and questions, of which there were--as you recall--quite a few. 13:51:59 finally I feel like *I* am the expert in this channel :P 13:52:04 (audio) 13:53:16 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.232.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:54:06 makks: there's this thing called competence bias... 13:54:06 makks: so is there some easy way to take two audio files like I just described and sync them up and mix them together to get the best of both worlds (while cleaning up some of the noise, etc) 13:54:32 -!- _danb_` [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:54:38 nah but like in programming you have to start out right 13:54:51 cant fix a crappy program by adding two lines 13:54:56 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zaxeyxntvucqfmri] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:55:29 you typically have to remove some lines first. 13:55:33 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:54 _danb_ [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:55:57 but I advise to use audacity 13:56:01 its simple and free 13:56:08 gigamonkey: one interface i've seen iss something that shows you the two tracks on top of each other with interactive manipulation of the mix. so you could, for some section, mix in entirely the first track, and for another section, entirely the second, and for others, perhaps a mix of both. audacity can do that. 13:56:32 and there you can do what xach just said 13:56:34 maybe arbscht is already doing exactly that. 13:56:39 free I believe. based on the last time I tried to use it, their notion of "simple" is not the same as mine. 13:56:42 probably^^ 13:56:52 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757a87.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:01 Though I had no idea what I was doing so that's probably not fair. 13:57:30 well it uses a simple concept of time and volume 13:57:58 learning the buttons is another thing as usual 13:57:59 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:01:14 Quick slime question: should the right button menu on a presentation give an INSPECT option? ISTR it used to -- dunno if SLIME changed or aquamacs is messing with the menus... 14:01:50 yes 14:02:23 find definition, inspect, describe, copy to repl, ... 14:02:26 -!- ignas [~ignas@88-222-145-120.meganet.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:02:34 fe[nl]ix: thanks. seems like aquamacs is messing this up... 14:06:38 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.232.251] has joined #lisp 14:07:02 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-143.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:48 d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has joined #lisp 14:08:03 I get the presentations menu in the menubar at the top, but the right-button menu doesn't have presentation items. 14:09:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-230-198.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:10:10 why the heck does Wordpress put extra space between paragraphs if you close them with

14:12:32 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:13:14 -!- d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:42 d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has joined #lisp 14:14:54 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:15:55 xan__ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:18:31 btw, I found the reason for ASDF issues on Win32 regarding too long paths 14:18:36 -!- d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:13 apparently you can make paths up to 32767 characters long :D 14:19:16 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:19:55 p_l|home: so what's the problem? 14:21:12 p_l|home: You can do these long paths only in certain versions of Win32. Default path length limit seems to be 160 characters. 14:21:28 Xach: DOS pathnames support only 259 characters, which is what most people use when typing pathnames 14:21:33 32767 would be fine. 160 chars is insufficient for some of Fare's paths. 14:21:36 rpg: 260 14:21:46 add \\.\ at the beginning 14:21:49 fe[nl]ix: OK, whatever. 14:22:16 p_l|home: My cursory read of this was that you couldn't count on that working on all the win32 platforms you might encounter. But it WAS a cursory read. 14:22:20 also, Windows versions that are locked to 255-long paths are so obsolete I'm not going to waste time cursing 14:22:39 p_l|home: will the CL pathname objects accommodate the \\.\ cookie? 14:23:17 rpg: As long as they pass the pathname directly to the OS call, it should work, unless they are using some horrible compatibility syscall 14:23:37 \\.\ is the UNC for "this computer 14:23:37 " 14:24:20 p_l|home: You mean as long as we always use strings instead of PATHNAMEs? 14:24:42 How do we encode that? Into the :directory slot? :device? :host? 14:25:13 i'm not sure that fare always uses strings instead of pathnames... 14:26:07 rpg: I'm currently checking which APIs allow passing Long UNC form 14:26:24 (like "\\.\C:\..........") 14:27:06 d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has joined #lisp 14:27:55 Is there a SLIME REPL command for "previous matching current input"? 14:28:15 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:28:18 rpg: M-p 14:28:22 *rpg* is looking.... 14:28:46 Xach: thanks. wonder why that didn't make it to the menu bar? will add... 14:29:02 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.98.198] has joined #lisp 14:29:02 For the novice (or the occasional mostly-ELI user) the menu is a really handy crutch... 14:29:43 hmmm... it's slightly more complex, but apparently the Unicode-based APIs support 2^15 chars in a path, if you prefix the path with "\\?\" or similar 14:30:05 ah. I see.... "Previous input" doesn't scream out "will match substring" to me... 14:30:34 Wonder if the maintainers would object to changing the title of the menu item if I offer a patch... 14:30:47 There is only one way to find out! 14:32:25 -!- d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:32:41 Fare: nice notes for the 2.009->2.010 changes. i'll update quicklisp shortly. 14:33:08 Malondron [~user@c80-216-27-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:33:18 *Fare* doesn't do windows, and won't test on windows, but accepts patches. 14:35:06 the test suite is broken on 2.010, but I fixed it (as well as GCL) in 2.147 14:35:25 apparently no one uses ASDF on GCL. 14:35:39 or I would have had bug reports 14:35:46 -!- colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-69-45.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36:12 colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-69-45.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:36:40 speaking of ql, anyone else get a dependency issue when installing hu.dwim.quasi-quote? 14:37:01 aifnord [~aifnord@79-133-4-112.bredband.aland.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:22 phrixos: loaded fine for me. what happened when you tried it? 14:38:33 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 14:39:14 hi Fare. how was your trip to ilc 14:39:39 dto: very nice, I think 14:39:43 Fare: i'm making progress with my dance game, and would love to bring it to BLM in november if you're still available 14:39:55 dto: how long can you speak? 14:40:03 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116021 14:40:33 dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:44 Fare: BTW, ISTR one of the Franz fellows saying that they are testing ASDF2. I imagine it's unlikely to be sent out as a patch to 8.2, though. More likely to appear in 9.0... 14:40:45 Fare: i could do an hour again. i have SOOOO much more to show and talk about than I did in January 2009 or whenever my last presentation was. 14:40:58 Fare: http://dto.github.com/notebook/xiobeat.html is what i'm working on 14:41:16 phrixos: are you perhaps using an old, non-quicklisp alexandria? 14:41:19 Fare: I'll test on allegromodern, if you like. 14:41:22 dto: will you bring a mat and do a demo? 14:41:33 certainly. 14:41:33 rpg: would be neat 14:41:52 hmm, i thought I was all ql; let me check that 14:42:03 Fare: hopefully i'll have the camera support by then, via cl-v4l2 14:42:04 (describe (asdf:find-system 'alexandria)) might show you an odd pathname 14:42:08 Fare: i can bring cameras too :) 14:42:15 and speakers 14:42:50 and a separate video cam to record the presentation. and my friend Dana again to operate the cam and help out 14:43:17 Xach: ah-ha, yup; alexandria is from just raw asdf 14:43:22 go go gadget make install-quicklisp 14:43:22 Fare: i'm trying to have this ready by mid-november, so later nov would work better, but i'll make do with whatever time is available 14:43:48 *phrixos* shovels more coal into the sat link 14:43:50 ok, so I'll speak mid-november -- maybe you can speak mid-december? 14:43:51 hopefully that will do it 14:44:08 actually, I gotta see how much vacation time I have left. I might be away in december. 14:44:15 what about january 2011 14:44:45 January 2011 would work better for me, too! 14:44:45 no, i can do mid-november. the game already works, and 2 more weeks should be plenty of time. 14:44:52 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.232.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:44:55 dto: worcester lispers it is 14:45:08 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 14:45:08 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 14:45:08 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:45:11 Xach: yeah we should try to get that going... i guess i could have a meetup here 14:45:28 and maybe give a run-through of my BLM presentation before BLM 14:45:43 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.68.118] has joined #lisp 14:45:59 if only 3 or 4 people will be attending, my basement should be very nice, since it's where i dance already 14:46:17 Fare: remind me --- is there some reason, while we are figuring out a better solution, that we shouldn't stuff the version string into asdf.asd as well as asdf.lisp? 14:47:02 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:38 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:49:56 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:08 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:16 pegmooo [~me@wsip-70-183-186-240.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:24 -!- pegmooo [~me@wsip-70-183-186-240.cl.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 14:50:57 pegmooo [~me@wsip-70-183-186-240.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:04 Fare: do you have an exact date for the mid november? 14:51:26 Fare: based on current progress it'll definitely be ready to show by then. i would be surprised if it wasn't already in bea. 14:51:27 beta. 14:51:44 i'm working on it full-time and have suspended all other game development... and playing as well 14:52:44 jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has joined #lisp 14:53:06 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53:13 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:38 Xach: that's sorted the problem, thanks 14:54:46 ql is officially awesome 14:55:43 Fare: all of the tests pass on allegromodern, if you want to note that fact. 14:56:36 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 14:57:48 rpg: thanks! 14:59:25 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2A0F.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:44 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:01:02 -!- colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-69-45.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01:31 colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-69-45.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:02:49 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:03:26 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 15:05:01 Fare: let me know what you decide. i can definitely do mid-november 15:07:25 brb 15:07:38 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:20 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:29 benny [~benny@87.122.54.255] has joined #lisp 15:08:36 Joreji [~thomas@80-137.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:08:57 -!- pegmooo [~me@wsip-70-183-186-240.cl.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:09:58 What does this phrase mean (from clhs union): "The argument to the :key function is an element of list-1 or list-2; the return value is part of the supplied element."? 15:10:26 [the last part of the phrase] 15:11:44 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:41 beach: I think that just means that the return value of the key function is meant to be a subset of the element passed to it 15:12:58 in the case of a complex element 15:13:08 dlowe: Maybe so, but why would there be such a restriction? 15:13:28 I doubt you'll find such a restriction in practice :) 15:13:50 that is pretty strange, though 15:13:54 Fare: what's the shortest way to find out the pathname of the system file for a given system name? 15:14:12 or, if not the system file, the system file's directory 15:14:15 whichever is shorter. 15:14:26 <_8david> The most common use case for KEY is a function that merely returns a part of the object, like a slot value or array index. So it seems to me that this use case made it into the spec, sounding like a requirement, which is obviously nonsense. 15:14:47 <_8david> What they might actually mean is that KEY should be a function in the mathematical sense, i.e. that UNION can rely on KEY to return the same value every time it is being called on the same argument. 15:14:55 it's described more sanely in e.g. clhs intersection ("the :key function typically returns part of the supplied element.") 15:15:07 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:30 jsnell: Definitely. 15:16:55 Xach: (asdf:system-source-file (asdf:find-system :foo)) ? 15:17:05 belsyrus [~Brucio-12@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:06 Fare: thanks 15:18:20 drewc: are you around? 15:18:45 Xach: i'd like to get a worcester lispers meeting to happen but... i can't find a room 15:18:49 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:52 except this house 15:19:06 dto: centrum unavailable? 15:19:09 haha 15:19:13 I think drewc's still asleep 15:19:16 or whatever it's called now. 15:19:25 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 15:19:40 it's lonely in #beirc 15:19:47 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:49 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 15:19:51 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:55 oops. 15:20:04 Xach: may have missed your reply. 15:20:12 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:20:14 it's the DCU center now, it hasnt been called centrum in yeeears :) 15:20:24 belsyrus: How so? 15:20:26 seems a little big for a meeting of 5 people 15:20:41 beach: I'm the only one in the channel 15:21:13 Hmm 15:21:37 I think we should collectively decide to eat our own dogfood and take a vow of using only beirc henceforth 15:23:16 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:39 belsyrus: It would need a spell checker and abbrev-mode first, plus probably some other stuff like a search function. 15:23:53 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-71-217.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:23:57 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.98.198] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:24:25 i'm wondering if the fact that it isn't in quicklisp indicates that it doesn't currently compile. 15:24:44 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-85-249.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:24:57 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.98.198] has joined #lisp 15:25:33 No no! 15:25:37 Minor oversight. It will be in soon. 15:25:41 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:25:48 *Xach* is going to try to push a pretty big dist update this weekend 15:25:51 Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-95-220.w90-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:25:53 sweet 15:25:53 beirc looks cool 15:25:58 yeah, another victim! 15:26:05 Xach: sweet! 15:31:37 Bronsa [~bronsa@host140-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:32:36 symbole [~yaaic@243.sub-69-98-238.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:38:58 symbole2 [~yaaic@106.sub-75-213-89.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:16 -!- symbole [~yaaic@243.sub-69-98-238.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:23 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:39:58 bejdz [~bejdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 15:41:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:43:21 tritao [~ha@lab15p10.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 15:43:43 hi 15:43:49 hello tritao 15:44:15 -!- tritao [~ha@lab15p10.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 15:44:31 was nice seeing the guy 15:44:38 yeah. 15:46:18 bye bye 15:46:27 was nice chattin wit ya 15:46:30 -!- makks [~makks@p5DE8E6BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 15:47:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-230-198.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:48:06 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:49:34 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:50:05 -!- symbole2 [~yaaic@106.sub-75-213-89.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:50:49 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:52:09 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:52:21 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:54:41 -!- bejdz [~bejdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:00 Xach: possible to send you a tarball for a system to include? 15:55:28 Must dash now, but I will try to do so this afternoon, if so. 15:56:23 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:56:27 _nix001 [~Adium@114.92.98.198] has joined #lisp 15:56:34 rpg: much better if it has a home somewhere on the web. 15:56:37 or in svn, git, etc. 15:58:00 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.98.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:00 symbole [~yaaic@106.sub-75-213-89.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:23 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-164.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:02:19 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:03:44 -!- drdo [~user@194.210.228.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:05:07 -!- symbole 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16:41:25 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-108.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:44:53 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 16:46:30 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@pD9E273BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:47 does common lisp has a priority queue abstract data type ? 16:47:06 no 16:48:46 srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:48 is there an implemenation anywhere for a priority queue in common lisp ? 16:49:05 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E240B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:49:12 -!- Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 16:49:44 nullkuhl_: yes 16:50:30 nullkuhl_: sbcl includes one (you can copy the code), and i think cl-containers has one, and perhaps other systems too 16:51:01 *Xach* suddenly wishes he had his global apropos working 16:51:11 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:53:16 Xach: would you kindly link ? 16:54:16 http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git/blob/HEAD:/src/code/timer.lisp has sbcl's stuff 16:54:27 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-containers/ has the cl-containers stuff 16:56:27 minion: cl-heap 16:56:28 cl-heap: CL-HEAP implements the binary heap, Fibonacci heap, and priority queue data structures. http://www.cliki.net/cl-heap 16:58:11 minion: CL-HEAP seems huge.. is it ? i mean it seems like a large package, and i just need a priority queue 16:58:11 i agree - cl heap seems huge is it you mean it seems like a large package and you just need a priority queue 16:58:30 ops :) 16:58:35 adeht: ? 16:58:41 meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-063-176.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 16:58:44 minion passes the Turing test 16:58:49 nullkuhl: why does it seem huge to you? 16:59:24 http://common-lisp.net/websvn/listing.php?repname=cl-heap&path=/cl-heap/trunk/&rev=0&sc=0 16:59:44 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-049-241.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:59:58 looks rather small to me 17:02:01 *Xach* goes to add cl-heap to quicklisp, finds it's already there 17:02:38 i was just looking for a .lisp file that implements priority queue, with basic functions that i can use. 17:02:54 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:03:10 nullkuhl_: you can copy it out of the timer.lisp link i gave you, if you like. 17:03:27 nullkuhl_: these days, people often grab entire libraries, large or small, to save time. 17:04:00 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:17:40 aifnord [~aifnord@79-133-4-112.bredband.aland.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:52 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:04 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 17:21:26 -!- zbignova is now known as zbigold 17:22:40 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 17:23:12 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:23:46 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-057-145.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 17:24:20 -!- meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-063-176.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:25:17 manby-ace_ [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:25:54 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@stu213.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:26:29 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu213.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:52 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:28:42 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 17:30:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:30:34 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.98.198] has joined #lisp 17:31:03 symbole [~yaaic@0.sub-75-198-213.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:36 -!- _nix001 [~Adium@114.92.98.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33:06 fare-utils already had binary heap, fibonacci heap and priority queue 17:34:34 -!- dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:35:59 moah [~gnu@188.109.167.0] has joined #lisp 17:36:36 <_8david> turning them into stand-alone projects could give them visiblility then 17:38:28 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 17:38:36 -!- zbigold is now known as zbigone 17:39:00 I suppose I could split fare-utils into a whole bunch of sub-libraries. 17:39:23 There are a glut of unclearly-differentiated personal utility libraries. 17:39:32 with one ASD file per lisp file. 17:41:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@80-137.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:42:24 Xach: quicklisp may be lowering the cost of splitting projects into many parts. 17:42:36 But up 'til now, the price was pretty hefty 17:43:20 Yes. Often much easier to write your own utilities than to re-use someone else's. 17:43:53 *kushal* is wondering how people actually install dependency packages on production systems ? 17:43:55 especially if there were long strings of dependencies attached. 17:44:06 *Fare* remembers hell trying to use a small gwking utility 17:45:02 kushal, at ITA, we have a lisp/libs/ directory checked in under our qres/ project in the svn repository. 17:45:10 Xach: i have found what i wanted exactly here: http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/lisp/utilities/queue.lisp a simple implemenation of priority queues. 17:45:22 kushal, so everyone uses the same version of the libraries. 17:45:32 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 17:45:43 nullkuhl_: excellent. 17:46:04 which reminds me I was in the process of git'ifying the libraries, to be able to easily track both upstream and qres versions of the libraries. 17:46:07 Xach: however, i couldn't compile it as i get the error: Undefined operator FOR in for each item in items do 17:46:25 nullkuhl_: brutal 17:46:26 Fare, so how you handle deployment ? 17:46:51 Xach: any idea how should i replace the FOR with something that would compile ? 17:46:54 kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:16 kushal, we have complex Makefile's and scripts and a few environment variables. 17:47:39 nullkuhl: you can replace it with dolist 17:47:48 nullkuhl_: If I were you, I would use a library. 17:47:54 Fare, ok 17:48:01 an executable image is built, the whole installation directory is packaged into a rpm, which is deployed by a separate team using primitive techniques. 17:48:13 Fare, in my case I have to create RPMs to deploy anything :( 17:48:45 still now for development I am happily using quicklisp as it is taking care of everything 17:48:47 creating RPMs is not that hard. A big pain to write a shell script that does it, and then you're done. 17:48:55 nullkuhl: that file is part of a library, http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/lisp/utilities/ 17:49:35 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:49:37 Fare, ah, I am ok with creating rpm, but getting the actual dependencies in proper path is the issue for me as I am still a newbie 17:50:14 adeht: just noticed, thanks for the help i will change it with a do list now 17:50:48 I guess I should try to use quicklisp on the test systems also and then later come up with an idea to create proper rpms 17:51:16 kushal: My hope for quicklisp is that people can use it to easily create "bundles" of libraries that can be used for deployment with quicklisp absent. 17:51:34 That functionality has not been written or even fully described yet, so it doesn't work right now. 17:52:02 Xach, ah cool, so in future we will be able to do that :D 17:52:05 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E273BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:20 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.98.198] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:52:34 All the pieces are there to write it yourself, it just is not sufficiently documented. A highly-motivated nerd could do it... 17:53:22 Xach, ok 17:53:32 kushal, anyway, the 'making a rpm' part is independent from the rest, really an artefact of dreadful object-oriented company management. 17:55:20 Fare, ok, I should say then reaching upto the point where make build and install a package should my target and as everything we do are in rpm , at the end I have to make one 17:55:26 * should be 17:57:03 Xach: i'd like to split out the larger modules from XE2 so that i can contribute just the small core library to quicklisp 17:57:18 i have to figure out how to do that with git :) 17:57:26 dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:01 HET2 [~diman@91.106.90.2] has joined #lisp 17:58:13 dto: git filter-branch 17:58:40 dlowe: oh, i can create just a branch? nice !! i'll investigate 17:59:06 btbngr [~btbgnr@212.183.140.48] has joined #lisp 17:59:21 dto: you create a branch first, then run filter-branch to modify every commit 17:59:31 dlowe: thats sweet. 17:59:45 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E25391.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:03 dto: I used it to split data and code into two repositories. I removed everything but one dir in one branch, then removed just that one dir in the other 18:00:49 so basically i wanna create a branch first, then use git filter-branch to remove the right dirs until i have just what i want in each? 18:01:03 sounds fabulous. 18:01:12 yeah, you aren't limited to removals, either 18:01:15 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A51DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:01:20 <_8david> filter-branch is a remarkable combination of awesome power and totally absurd shell-script-style nonsense 18:01:52 _8david: indeed 18:01:55 well, it's a unix utility :) 18:02:23 dlowe: which filter is for removing a dir? i'm reading the manual 18:02:45 dto: --tree-filter 18:03:05 thanks :) 18:03:08 ah i see how it works 18:03:50 there's a new --subdirectory-filter too 18:03:53 looks like i need: git filter-branch --index-filter 'git rm --cached --ignore-unmatch filename' HEAD 18:03:54 oh. 18:04:06 atude [~shouyu@173-162-208-165-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:19 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:04:20 so you guys tricked me.. I had no idea lisp was similar to scheme 18:04:24 i still might want tree filter 18:05:20 we're a devious pack of neer-do-wells up in here. 18:05:28 OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:55 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 18:05:59 I've noticed... 18:06:09 should I proceed or just move onto haskell for greater good...? 18:06:27 atude: common lisp and scheme share syntax like java and c++. they're not that similar. 18:07:15 What's wrong with being similar to Scheme? Also, isn't Scheme _a_ Lisp itself? Just not a Common one. 18:08:01 dlowe: I could not help but notice all of the pre order stuff and well, that alone warped a train of thought for me 18:08:13 I'm sure ther'es much more but right now, I cannot understand what's going on 18:08:24 I'm being attacked by joy or something :( 18:11:26 Scheme is a Lisp in the sense that it came from the Lisp community, but it's not a Lisp in that it significantly diverged from the Lisp tradition 18:12:10 I understand 18:12:26 I have some fear of learning lisp... I cannot understand why :( 18:13:57 atude: may cause ponytails, beards. beware! 18:15:33 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:15:43 I cannot grow a beard, I have a pony tail already... Thanks for the caution 18:15:51 Xach: what accounts for your immunity? 18:15:52 hehe 18:15:53 What book do you recommend for me to use? 18:15:56 atude: seriosly, dude? first you come seeking sales people, now you come seeking shrinks? 18:16:03 atude, PCL 18:16:12 atude: you were recommended PCL earlier, too 18:16:42 btw, landoflisp author is here ? 18:16:58 cmm: wtf 18:17:02 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:03 rpg: http://xach.com/img/slad-shirt.jpg <-- childhood innoculation, like chicken pox? 18:17:06 kushal: no 18:17:21 cmm: no.. I wasn'ted reasoning, I guess you missed that, and now I require a shrink because i'm scared >:( 18:17:31 wanted * 18:17:33 Xach, ok 18:17:49 meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-085-016-088-100.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 18:17:52 rpg: I was only 8 in that photo :( 18:17:59 cmm: PCL seems pretty lacking of things I'd actually care about 18:18:12 atude, i'm reading proctical common lisp right now 18:18:16 it shows me how to use it and everything but not much on algorithms/data structures 18:18:17 er... practical 18:18:30 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:18:35 atude: that's independent of language. 18:18:37 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-057-145.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:18:38 atude, it's pretty easy to follow, except don't use lispbox, just use emacs and slime 18:18:46 pkhuong_: hmm 18:18:52 oh 18:18:55 pkhuong_: chances are, you're right 18:19:16 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19:16 you want to know about data structures and algorithms? read a data structures and algorithms book 18:19:17 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:19 each of my other texts usaully goes in and out of how the language actually works, not just syntactical stuff 18:19:35 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-198-115.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:19:43 ozzloy: .... yeah, that's fine 18:19:44 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:03 ozzloy: seems much different in the world of functional programming 18:20:10 something very different 18:20:24 phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:20:48 I have "The Algorithm Design Manual" but, I cannot follow it using lisp, it's hard to make the conversionm 18:21:07 I know someone here knows something that would help :( 18:21:50 Xach, I liked that book also 18:22:00 Good evening everyone! 18:22:12 beach, good evening 18:22:38 though it is almost 12am here 18:22:56 atude: Common Lisp is not a functional programming language. It is a multi-paradigm language and supports standard, mutation-based data structures. 18:23:00 *beach* is having a hard time finishing his algorithms and data structures book. When it's done, it will be quite well adapted to Lisp. 18:23:11 atude: are you under the impression that PCL teaches "just syntactical stuff"? 18:23:20 beach: are you using polyurethane for the finish? 18:23:29 -!- symbole [~yaaic@0.sub-75-198-213.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:23:31 beach, please do release pdfs as well 18:23:36 adeht: by looking through it, yes... and how to actually use it, not so much how it works 18:23:44 symbole_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 18:23:46 atude: you're sorely mistaken 18:23:48 rpg: No. Do you think that's part of the problem. 18:23:55 s/./?/ 18:23:56 -!- Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-95-220.w90-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:23:58 adeht: good to know 18:24:09 kushal: Actually, it is all in French at the moment. 18:24:10 so just stick to this one 18:24:16 anyone know of a decent lisp environment for vim? i just for the life of me can't get used to emacs 18:24:20 beach, oops :) 18:24:29 beach: enamel takes longer to dry ;-) 18:24:46 rpg: I'll keep that in mind. 18:24:54 atude: does this book discuss lazy evaluation, amortized costs and scheduled fixups? 18:25:00 yan_, change to emacs for lisp , life will be easy 18:25:09 rpg: So, might you put your project on the web? 18:25:38 Xach: It's already on sourceforge, but they have changed the effing interface so many times, that I'm driven to despair. 18:25:46 kushal: that's what i'm doing now.. i've spent years and years in vim and i've just been finding myself cursing at emacs quite a bit.. 18:25:51 maybe someone needs to write a lispkell library, implementing relevant parts of haskell in Lisp. 18:25:57 or is that Qi ? 18:26:02 yan_, same here :) 18:26:11 Xach: Have already given up using their revision control; now just use it as a tarball-server... 18:26:24 atude, sorry, i don't think there's a "data structures and algorithms using lisp" book. you'll probably have to continue learning lisp so you can represent the algorithms with it 18:26:40 i just recently started using lisp with gigamonkey's book, and trying to write a personal project while doing it and trying to pick up emacs/slime, it's all just a bit much 18:26:46 rpg: sourceforge is a big pain in my neck, quicklisp-wise. 18:26:49 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has quit [Quit: TheEnd2012] 18:26:52 ozzloy: indeed there isn't - because Lisp isn't that good at that, sadly. 18:27:02 yan_: It gets easier. 18:27:07 rpg: their CVS server has weird old problems and their http stuff often does wacky redirects. 18:27:10 for data-structure intensive work, Haskell and OCaml shine 18:27:11 Um. You can pretty much just use DEFSTRUCT and MAKE-ARRAY and the translation from a standard procedural language (like pseudo-algol) will work straightforwardly. 18:27:13 I'm sorry, I'm looking through this book and still see just that of how to use lisp and well, it's practical applications. No theory at all 18:27:24 maybe Scala. 18:27:36 Xach: I need to figure out how painful it is to expose a bit of our subversion server for anonymous access... 18:27:48 yan: I also started learning emacs while learning CL.. it seems like a huge endeavour, but after reading the emacs tutorial and setting up slime, it's not a big deal 18:27:53 atude: maybe you can write and publish a library 18:27:59 or take fare-utils and extend it... 18:28:09 Fare: why do you say that? 18:28:14 Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-95-220.w90-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:28:24 good side-effect to reading the book. 18:28:34 atude: As others said, learn the language and compare to others. 18:28:35 -!- aifnord [~aifnord@79-133-4-112.bredband.aland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:28:37 Fare: CL is also pretty good if you need bit twiddling or lots of side effects. 18:29:03 Fare, lisp isn't good for algorithms? 18:29:18 Fare, or data structures? 18:29:40 CL is not *bad* - you can do everything. But really, for type-directed design of algorithm, Lisp doesn't help you the way ML or Haskell does. 18:29:57 then there is no reason for me to bother lisp at this time... 18:29:59 thank you :) 18:30:18 -!- atude [~shouyu@173-162-208-165-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 18:30:33 Fare: typecase, defmethod? 18:30:56 atude: CL is still much better than python or most other languages 18:31:07 btbngr, sure, it's verbose but it works. 18:31:09 Fare: Predictably, he left. 18:31:10 btbngr: not as nice for generic type-generic code generation; you have to use the MOP and what not. 18:31:16 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.106.90.2] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:31:38 pkhuong_: true 18:31:44 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:33:33 is there a good library that has a parser for destructuring-bind and other crap like that? 18:33:50 Fare: I think tcr had something; might be in alexandria. 18:34:53 syntard_ [~quassel@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 18:36:59 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:39:49 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.232.251] has joined #lisp 18:40:37 Fare my com.informatimago.common-lisp.source-form.lisp package is able to parse any lambda list. 18:42:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:42:32 pjb: thanks! Is it on quicklisp? 18:42:41 Not yet. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/common-lisp/source-form.lisp 18:42:49 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/ for git instructions. 18:42:53 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/ for git instructions. 18:43:40 pjb, thanks 18:43:58 I don't remember why I wanted that -- oh, yes -- updatef 18:44:56 I was incensed that the new LOL said that the setter guild's generic setting infrastructure was limited to side-effectful programming 18:45:11 to prove him wrong, I wanted to write a pure variant - updatef 18:45:45 -!- colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-69-45.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 18:46:09 sicl may have one too. 18:49:37 Fare: which would be similar to ocaml's "with_foo" idiom? 18:50:11 I don't know ocaml's with_foo idiom 18:51:59 instance with slot bar = value; returns a copy of instance with an updated value in bar. 18:52:02 (updatef (lookup i m k) s) ==> (updatef-expander lookup (i m k) (s)) ==> (insert i m k s) 18:52:13 pkhuong_, yes 18:52:32 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:52:40 except, generic and "composable" the way setf is 18:53:37 so you're doing updatef-macros too? Have you identified what updatef expanders need to specify? The same thing as setf expanders? 18:54:28 about the same 18:54:58 but to define the long form of defupdatef I'm having trouble parsing a macro-lambda-list 18:57:36 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.232.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:57:42 and then there's the equivalent of (defun (setf foo) (v args....) ...) 18:57:43 -!- md1 [59ad0e3a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.173.14.58] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:02:56 Sbidicuda [~antani@host209-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:02:56 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:03:05 at least you should be able to reuse get-setf-expansion. I think. 19:03:37 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:39 cmm: nope, I can't, since the equivalent of a writer-form has a very different semantics 19:05:22 *Fare* is reluctant to make fare-utils depend on SICL or anything 19:05:31 more fun for you, I guess :) 19:05:46 I'll have to move updatef out of fare-utils... 19:06:03 Fare: You should be reluctant. At least at the moment. 19:07:23 varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:07:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:10:18 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:22 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:11:28 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:14:21 pjb: nice, clean code 19:15:02 though a bit heavy on infrastructure 19:17:40 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:04 KeepComposure [wxfxsa@69.41.179.202] has joined #lisp 19:22:03 sup 19:22:43 -!- KeepComposure [wxfxsa@69.41.179.202] has quit [Client Quit] 19:23:39 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:47 Another one that didn't last long. 19:26:12 -!- syntard_ [~quassel@74.112.63.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:21 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:29:52 anyone know of any decent tutorials on bundling standalone apps? i'm writing a small project that i want others to execute that's essentially a simple unix filter (using sbcl currently) 19:30:02 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:57 syntard_ [~quassel@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 19:31:12 yan_: I don't know of a tutorial, but I use buildapp to make those. There is some documentation for it. 19:33:01 Xach: hm thanks i'll check it out.. i guess i should learn to use asdf/package code properly before i start messing with that 19:33:10 yan_: maybe so. 19:33:14 yan_: what does your filter do? 19:33:22 beach: but if we just count lispers by numbers, not quality, we can still bump up the number of lispers. 19:33:27 Xach: can i pm you? 19:33:32 yan_: ok 19:33:40 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007017.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 19:33:44 By being more inclusive in what we call a lisper, we can be the most popular language in the world! 19:33:50 Fare: we might have to go to percentile-based billing 19:34:35 Fare: Of course! I personally don't care about people like atude who already decided not to stick around. 19:36:13 -!- chandler [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:37:06 chandler [~n@new.unmutual.info] has joined #lisp 19:37:25 -!- chandler [~n@new.unmutual.info] has quit [Changing host] 19:37:25 chandler [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has joined #lisp 19:38:25 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007017.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:39:05 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:41:37 -!- Sbidicuda [~antani@host209-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:32 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:43:39 -!- manby-ace_ [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: manby-ace_] 19:43:45 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:44:48 manby-ace_ [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:48:30 -!- Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-95-220.w90-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:49:44 TDT [~user@bouncer.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:50:50 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:52:13 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:53:06 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:31 -!- manby-ace_ [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: manby-ace_] 19:56:27 manby-ace_ [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:56:37 -!- manby-ace_ [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:00:15 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 20:00:44 fe[nl]ix: I tried your CFFI; it works for GSLL and friends with no problems. 20:01:04 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:03:34 wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:03:34 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Changing host] 20:03:34 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 20:04:38 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:56 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:05:37 LiamH: nice 20:06:09 fe[nl]ix: I semi take that back, it turns out I hadn't recompiled completely. Hold on. 20:08:10 OK, restore that assertion, this time with recompiling my applications. 20:08:39 Does "cc" translate to g++ in your version? 20:10:58 yes 20:11:23 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-108.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:12:10 well it's indistinguishable from 0.10.6 as far as I'm concerned. 20:12:48 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-243-233.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:54 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-243-233.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:14:43 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:15:08 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-200-122.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:15:19 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:43 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:15:59 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 20:16:04 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-200-122.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:17:36 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 20:18:19 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-130-94.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:20:47 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.53.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:26:51 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:30:17 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:44 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:00 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:33:32 urandom__ [~user@p548A55AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:49 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has joined #lisp 20:36:01 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:37:59 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:39 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:43:08 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:21 this may be offtopic, but is anyone here familiar with good heuristics for the 8 puzzle problem ? 20:46:57 nullkuhl_: There's a whole bunch on google. 20:46:57 wikipedia has some info. 20:48:53 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 20:49:42 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:51:32 yes, i have seen most of them already, (manhattan distance, sum of m.d., misplaced tiles, linear conflict) , however i was wondering if someone knows a better one, because 2 days ago i thought that manhattan had the best estimation and with more research i found out about linear conflict,etc.. 20:52:02 I wanted to enumerate macro characters http://paste.lisp.org/display/116031 20:52:14 is there a better way to reflect? 20:53:34 <`3b> depends on if you care about macros on non-latin1 characters (or portability to lisps with more unusual character sets) 20:56:10 So, testing for chars is the only way to enumerate them? 20:56:28 *`3b* doesn't know of a better way 20:56:30 how do you people make weblocks work over https? 20:56:35 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 20:56:52 varjag: a reverse proxy, I assume. 20:56:59 ok 20:57:16 JohnnyL [excellent_@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:33 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:57:55 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:58:00 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:25 pkhuong_, would that be typically apache with mod_something? 20:58:51 or pound? Someone like drewc would know. 20:59:45 <`3b> nginx and lighttpd are also popular i think 21:00:32 thanks 21:01:20 <`3b> i think most use something like that for plain http as well 21:02:08 nginx 21:02:16 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:43 caelan [~caelan@65.122.173.145] has joined #lisp 21:07:09 nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:12 drewc, k thanks 21:12:13 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:12:14 (incf nginx) 21:12:30 :) 21:15:09 perlbal 21:15:46 nullkuhl_: how are you representing the puzzle? 21:17:18 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:48 freaktab [~freaktab@dslb-088-072-023-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:25 msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has joined #lisp 21:23:59 *austinh* just used restart-case for the first time and is very proud of himself 21:24:25 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:24:30 *syntard_* shot himself in the foot by making #\\b dispatch macro character 21:26:16 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:31 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:28:13 *`3b* hands syntard_ some |||| 21:28:50 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:29:00 `3b: why do I need them? 21:29:18 <`3b> to avoid expansion of macro characters 21:29:24 *syntard_* types |||| into prompt 21:30:01 isn't |||| a symbol? 21:30:02 `3b: || is unboun 21:30:06 <`3b> |#| for example reads as the symbol # rather than trying to dispatch on the # reader macro 21:30:41 <`3b> caelan: 2 symbols, both named "" 21:30:41 hmm, even if its a loop keyword? 21:30:45 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:31:02 *`3b* didn't intend |||| literally, just as a collection of #\| characters to be used as needed 21:31:07 *syntard_* shoots foot again 21:31:20 <`3b> loop keywords are just symbols, used only for their names 21:31:28 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:03 says |being| is unknown keyword 21:32:33 syntard_: you want |BEING| 21:32:34 <`3b> right, it also skips the reader case conversion, so you need to upcase it yourself 21:32:48 *caelan* is #1=(shooting hand holding gun . #1#) 21:32:52 *syntard_* gapes at pkhuong_ 21:33:33 pkhuong_: YES! 21:35:00 italic [~italic@cpe-74-77-219-209.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:28 caela: when this loop finishes, I'll come back for you 21:37:00 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.35] has joined #lisp 21:37:10 -!- TDT [~user@bouncer.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:38:20 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:40:14 -!- tobik [~tobik@p54893006.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:40:25 *syntard_* returns from infinite loop 21:41:04 -!- italic [~italic@cpe-74-77-219-209.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:42:04 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:25 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:25 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:44:43 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:45:31 -!- JohnnyL [excellent_@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 21:47:39 -!- chandler [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:48:25 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:06 chandler [~n@new.unmutual.info] has joined #lisp 21:51:12 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:51:17 -!- chandler [~n@new.unmutual.info] has quit [Changing host] 21:51:17 chandler [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has joined #lisp 21:52:19 is there a portable named-lambda macro that properly propagates declarations AND declares a block with the proper name? 21:52:38 and/or a portable way of separating declarations and/or doc from body ? 21:53:34 -!- jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:53:38 <_8david> parse-declarations? 21:53:45 where from? 21:54:01 jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:14 <_8david> that's the project name. 21:54:23 Fare: list of lits 21:54:29 list of lists* 21:54:32 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:55:00 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:19 _8david, thanks! 21:55:28 is it on quicklisp? 21:55:55 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:56:39 timack [~tim@142.177.11.100] has joined #lisp 21:57:58 I don't actually want to parse them, just separate them from the body, actually 21:58:49 <_8david> parse-body is the function to use them IIUC 21:58:59 <_8david> *then 21:59:19 *`3b* thinks alexandria has both 21:59:27 devon [~devon@c-24-6-0-207.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:32 is there some sort of emacs-lisp package which has some chance of running .el code? 22:00:50 ok for alexandria, then 22:00:57 devon: emacs? or do you mean for cl? 22:01:07 exactly 22:01:24 Xach: are you still there? 22:01:46 i.e., (defpackage emacs-lisp ...) so CL could compile .el files. 22:01:50 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:02:19 obviously emacs can run .el files already. 22:02:22 devon: http://www.cliki.net/CLOCC 22:02:40 apparently it contains a partial elisp implementation 22:03:04 or so google and the webpage tell me 22:04:04 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:08 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:04:08 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 22:04:46 Really? I looked and looked, don't see it. 22:05:11 <`3b> http://common-lisp.net/project/phemlock/ supposedly also handles some elisp 22:05:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:05:43 devon: http://clocc.cvs.sourceforge.net/clocc/clocc/src/cllib/elisp.lisp?view=markup 22:05:43 -!- meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-085-016-088-100.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:05:46 devon: http://www.cliki.net/CLOCC <-- I thought it was "Common Lisp Obfuscated Code Contest" 22:06:18 Kovensky: we need one of those 22:06:19 SCVirus [~B234651@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:14 -!- syntard_ [~quassel@74.112.63.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:11 symbole [~yaaic@0.sub-75-198-213.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:23 -!- zbigone is now known as zbiback 22:14:50 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:17:56 -!- symbole [~yaaic@0.sub-75-198-213.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:19:33 rpg: sort of 22:19:51 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:41 -!- rntz [~rntz@ASPHODEL.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:08 devon: what kind of .el files did you have in mind? a lot of the elisp i use does a lot of stuff with buffers and frames and other editor-specific objects... 22:21:25 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:21:44 Fare: do you have quicklisp installed? 22:22:02 Fare: you can sometimes answer the question "Is foo in quicklisp?" with (ql:system-apropos "foo") 22:22:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-164.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:22:49 Xach: I was wondering if it would make sense for me to make a git mirror of our SVN repo for the package in question (the SHOP2 HTN planner), push it to my place on github, and you could get at it for quicklisp that way.... 22:23:21 rpg: that would make my life easier. 22:24:08 TDT [~user@173-30-32-203.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:18 Xach: OK. Let me see if I can figure out how to use git-svn sufficiently to make that possible. 22:24:47 *Xach* must go wash, dry, fold, put away children 22:24:47 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A55AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:33 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:26:34 -!- TDT [~user@173-30-32-203.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:25 In SBCL, if I have used ENABLE-INTERRUPT to assign a signal handler to SIGUSR1, what's the right way to get rid of it? Presumably DEFAULT-INTERRUPT, not IGNORE-INTERRUPT, right? 22:31:28 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:25 Xach: are you going to extend that with some symbol-apropos ? 22:32:38 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:33:33 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757a87.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:23 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:35:39 phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:37:25 Fare: I'd like to. 22:37:35 *Xach* was trying to figure out who provided EXTREMUM the other day 22:39:01 *caelan* is semi-torturing himself with Pascal 22:40:37 should my pure thing be called updatef or update ? 22:40:49 pure equivalent to setf 22:41:37 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection refused] 22:42:48 ,bot 22:43:17 What's the bot that's hanging around here? 22:43:39 minion: are you a bot? 22:43:40 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 22:44:25 hmm 22:45:56 someone should make a Gnirut Test -- the way to pass it is to administer the Turing Test 22:46:22 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-243-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:46:41 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has joined #lisp 22:46:54 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:58 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-243-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:50:32 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-243-233.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:51:18 Fare: the F in setf is from "function".. e.g., as in (setf (car ...) ...) if your thing works on places, it makes sense to add an F 22:52:51 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-243-233.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:56:55 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:57:28 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:57:29 adeht: "form" not "function" 22:57:44 fe[nl]ix: "function" is what the HOPL paper says 22:58:20 "Deutsch commented that the special form used here is called SETFQ because it quotes the function and evaluates everything else. This name was abbreviated to SETF in Lisp-Machine Lisp. Deutsch attributed the idea of dual functions to Alan Kay." 23:02:36 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@131.104.9.229] has joined #lisp 23:02:59 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:01 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:04:14 -!- SCVirus [~B234651@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:42 Is there a way to tell ASDF to load all dependencies of a system without loading the system itself? Sometimes I make huge changes and I don't necessarily want to incrementally change my lisp image to reflect the new state, instead I just want to start with a new image, then make a "sequential scan" to each file of the system manually, making my big bunch of changes and invoking C-c C-k... 23:07:47 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:07:54 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:31 I often decide to do that big "sequential scan" when I'm in the middle of a big change so loading the system with inconsistent code is not wanted... 23:09:21 module 23:09:53 Hexstream: I dump an image containing my project's dependencies for that purpose. (If I understand you correctly) 23:10:24 nizze_ [~nisse@cs78250198.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:10:27 Hello guys! 23:10:49 I'm being tormented by the thought that is lurking in my head. 23:10:55 Hexstream: (asdf:component-depends-on 'asdf:load-op (asdf:find-system foo)) might be what you're looking for, i'm not sure i understand what it is you are asking 23:11:00 austinh: That seems like a bit of an heavyweight approach for what I want to do... I just want to load normally but stop just short of loading the target system itself. 23:11:24 Lisp seems to be so great language, but I'm afraid 23:11:44 scottmaccal_ [~scottmacc@58.sub-97-171-243.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:58 Hexstream: I guess it depends on how often you want to do it. 23:12:19 nizze_: I hope you're afraid about chasing dependencies and loading them because that has recently been solved ;) 23:12:45 The whole sacrifice-your-firstborn thing is still an open issue. Probably worth being afraid of that one. 23:13:09 Hexstream: I'm afraid that I'll fall into love with it. After that doing my dayjob with Ruby will feel awkward 23:13:50 nizze_: That might just happen. Better close your eyes and pretend you've never heard of this language. 23:14:58 And I'm afraid about this:http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html 23:15:17 Steve Yegge does not know Lisp. 23:15:27 Nothing is an acceptable anything... 23:15:48 he is not part of the Lisp community, and has not specified any criteria for "Lisp acceptance" 23:15:56 things are acceptable? 23:15:56 -!- dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:15:59 If you're looking for perfect solutions in every way, might want to consider a career change ;P 23:16:00 adeht: What makes you feel so. I think he's rant is pretty well grounded. 23:16:18 nizze: and I think you're trolling. 23:16:27 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DEFA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:16:29 adeht: No, I'm not. 23:17:01 i thought the point of having a CL standard was that i didn't have to pick *a* common lisp 23:17:01 lune: I mean that nothing is perfect, and you can always have "standards" so high that nothing in existence makes the grade. 23:17:04 nizze: if you don't know Lisp, what makes you think his rant is "pretty well grounded" 23:17:23 adeht: I've been doing developing for 5 years now. Perl -> PHP -> Ruby -> ?. I need to develop my self but cannot decide the road. CL, Haskell, or Obj-c 23:17:43 nizze_: Isn't there enough time to learn them all? 23:17:51 programmer personality test: '((.) (.)) 23:18:00 austinh: No, sorry. When I start something I get quite obsessed with it. 23:18:42 adeht: Well, can you tell me why it's not well grounded? 23:18:44 Common Lisp is a great language to be obsessed about ;P 23:18:59 nizze: it has been discussed ad naueseam at the time it was published 23:19:00 There's lots to chew on. 23:19:01 i <3 Lisp 23:19:10 nizze_: It sounds like you are trying to determine which is the one thing you should spend your time on, and that's boring. 23:19:10 nizze: google can help you 23:19:23 parenthesis are like warm arms snuggling you 23:19:24 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:19:28 No, it cant. 23:19:29 nizze_: i learned all three (obj-c to a lesser degree). concurrently. maybe you could too. 23:19:40 caelan: I have a company to run. 23:19:40 (you) 23:19:44 => snuggles 23:19:55 ah 23:21:09 How easy it is to learn CL after Clojure or vice versa 23:21:45 nizze_: i should imagine it would be fairly easy 23:22:00 What makes CL better than * 23:22:18 I've red all the 'its so great 'cause you have feature X' 23:22:20 Steve Yegge thinks "Lisp" means "Emacs Lisp". 23:22:38 There are probably more resources for CL as it has been around much longer than clojure, which is pretty young... 23:22:40 O_o 23:23:14 banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has joined #lisp 23:23:19 nizze_: lisp encourages certain patterns of thought that make you a better programmer, in my experience 23:23:30 somebody teach me about common lisp's MOP pls 23:23:58 minion: tell banisterfiend about AMOP 23:23:59 banisterfiend: direct your attention towards AMOP: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 23:24:05 nizze_: CL is a standardized, mature language with an extensive featureset and a healthy library ecosystem. #lisp also happens to be a channel dedicated to _Common Lisp_. 23:24:45 austinh: do i have to buy the book or is there a free online version? 23:25:01 banisterfiend: I'm not aware of a free version, but maybe your library has it. 23:25:19 Lisp needs a benevolent dictator. Lisp needs to ditch the name "Lisp", 23:25:19 Clojure is an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp. 23:25:20 I there any chance of getting CL job. Not that I'm in it for money, but I want to spend time with my love. 23:25:25 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:26 lol maybe it should ditch homoiconicity too 23:25:46 nizze_: yes. 23:25:48 There are a lot of free Clisp books online 23:25:51 lune: why not get rid of the macros while we're at it? 23:26:00 caelan: I'm all for that. 23:26:01 caelan: viva la revolution! 23:26:06 man, this channel has gone to the dogs lately... what with all the troll and tire kickers these days? :P 23:26:09 I live in Finland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland 23:26:29 nizze_: occassionally there's jobs on planet lisp 23:26:36 *austinh* 's new favorite expression is "tire kickers" 23:26:36 drewc: I hope you like the smell of Eternal September in the morning... 23:26:42 austinh: lol 23:26:44 drewc: Perhaps there's a new revival coming up. 23:27:01 drewc: perhaps people finally found some clojure 23:27:01 sykopomp: a revival of the horrid stream? 23:27:49 schmrkc: Hmm. Do I have to be some sort of master of science to get CL jobs? 23:28:20 Hexstream: lol, yeah, it _is_ just past september after all... still, the signal to noise ration is not what it once was... 23:28:27 nizze_: There's various companies working with Common Lisp. Not all of them target PhDs exclusively. 23:28:53 nizze_: i remember seeing several internship offers for high-school or college students who know lispy languages 23:29:12 caelan: I live in Finland. 23:29:29 I think there used to be more active moderation here. 23:29:36 nizze_: just thinking out loud 23:29:41 caelan: :) 23:30:09 What is CL used for. (e.g. Ruby is used mostly for web dev) 23:30:13 ? 23:30:14 drewc: I don't think this influx will be dying out so you might want to adjust to the new reality ;P Maybe someone influential will create a channel for veterans or something?... 23:30:24 austinh: probably my fault.. i've been too busy to police this place 23:30:34 nizze_: I'd suggest monitoring planet lisp. And you can always move from finland. 23:30:36 CL's single greatest strength, as far as I'm concerned, is with DSLs. 23:30:58 Hexstream: that's an understatement, considering the effects of 'accepted" DSLs, such as CLOS. 23:30:59 Hexstream: this is the channel for veterans, #lispcafe and #cl-gardeners are both thataway ---> 23:31:05 Hexstream: Yeah, the language's () nature makes it easy to write custom languages 23:31:41 drewc: I don't picture that a newbie's first thought would be to go into these channels instead of #lisp, exactly. 23:31:43 nizze_: () aren't necessary for homoiconicity, but it works well for Lisp. 23:31:48 drewc: I'm sorry that I'm too dumb to talk with you veterans. 23:32:15 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-71-217.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:32:23 Hexstream: lisp is not newbie optimised, nor is #lisp. 23:32:37 It seems that you guys are too snug to accept newcomers. 23:32:43 snug! 23:32:55 and here comes the trolls! :) 23:32:56 nizze: we sure are 23:33:04 I missed 'not' 23:33:06 Blah.random_visitor vs (generalized-thing blah) (generalized-thing other-blah) 23:33:15 nizze_: Don't take it personnally, I guess it's just more statistically probable that someone will be deemed annoying if he's a newbie. But don't worry, I'm on my way to being a bit of a veteran myself and I'm very annoying. 23:33:22 i unno 23:33:24 jus sayin 23:33:48 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 23:33:56 lune: please, if you're just going to spout nonsense, do it elsewhere ya? 23:34:02 drewc: i refuse 23:34:05 drewc: :p 23:34:17 drewc: ill go be crazy some place else for awhile 23:34:28 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-20-243.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:34:36 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:34:42 Well, what I learned is: #lisp does not try to sell you CL or convince you to do CL. Instead they start to complain about how someone is ignorant. 23:34:44 That article nizze_ linked does have some valid points 23:34:50 nizze is not an acceptable newcomer 23:35:00 Particularly the macros not being first class is a problem 23:35:05 s/the// 23:35:06 drewc: is Zh1vago skilled and knowledgable in common lisp? 23:35:16 nizze_: we are programmers, not salespersons 23:35:25 drewc: tell that to beach. 23:35:39 kenanb [~user@95.14.60.39] has joined #lisp 23:35:41 banisterfiend: why are you asking me? 23:35:47 drdo: do you have a use-case? 23:35:54 drewc: If tons of newbies are coming here and #lisp is not optimized for newbies, don't you think there might be a bit of a problem for all parties involved? The creation of a new channel seems like a more logical alternative than screaming at newbies until they "get" that they should GTFO... Everyone loses IMHO... 23:36:01 adeht: I've been coming up with a few here and there from playing with fexprs. 23:36:12 drewc: because i respect your opinion 23:36:13 adeht: The obvious would be passing them around in the same way you do with functions 23:36:15 Hexstream: isn't there a newbies channel? 23:36:17 Hexstream: It has nothing to do with being a novice. It's the attitude that some people bring. 23:36:25 adeht: You can refer to Shutt's stuff for details, or try them yourself. 23:36:25 drdo: that is not a use case 23:36:30 caelan: yes #scheme 23:36:32 adeht: What do you mean then? 23:36:35 ok last one i swear 23:36:42 sykopomp: I'm not sure what you mean. FEXPRs are not macros 23:36:44 Hexstream: nonsense. 23:36:48 Oh God. Please kick me out of here. 23:37:21 drdo: I mean something concrete that you want to do with macros and can't because they are not "first-class" 23:37:44 adeht: This is true, but they both achieve the goal of manipulating code that isn't immediately/directly/at all evaluated. 23:37:44 drdo: and which is also not totally braindamaged 23:38:45 adeht: unless all you're really doing is picking a fight with someone who is clearly less experienced than yourself. 23:39:01 sykopomp: you realize you can get a macro-function? 23:39:29 picking fights? sigh. I better drop it then 23:39:46 adeht: don't let sykopomp bully you! 23:40:01 *sykopomp* is a mean mean bully. 23:40:06 *sykopomp* internet-beats people. 23:40:13 *lune* cowers 23:40:22 this channel has always been a place where trolls and clueless newbs have been taken to task, and i for one like it that way. 23:40:34 lol 23:40:49 it weeds out those who are serious about learning from those who just want to be sold something, or argue something, etc. 23:41:07 You guys are quite interesting. You answered to the link I posted with "That is not relevant" | "You do not understand enough CL to agree/disagree with the post" instead of really telling me what part of Yegge's article faulty. 23:41:27 drewc: so what you're saying essentially is #lisp is for serious training 23:41:30 drewc: Filtering out the weenies who don't care to learn and crushing someone's spirit when they're trying to are different things, I'd say. 23:41:57 nizze: some of us answered that 4 years ago, when the article was published 23:42:08 nizze: you can find it in the comments, on reddit, and in other places. google. 23:42:22 sykopomp: bah, semantics .. only a weenie would allow the big irc meanies to crush their spirit. The type we want sees it as a challenge, not as a butthurt 23:42:27 I agree with drewc. Who would take us clueless newbs to task if not here? If there were a newbie friendly channel who would educate us newbs there? If it's the same people as are in this channel then why have a newbie channel, if not where would these other people come from? 23:42:50 drewc: there are different levels of "You're wrong", is all I'm saying. 23:43:11 sykopomp: one thing that i've always respected about the #lisp community is that it's not the blind leading the blind, and stupid ideas are called out as such 23:43:23 this is a technical channel, not a support group! 23:43:25 and that's good 23:43:56 so when somebody comes in hear all wanting to be sold something, why shouldn't we suspect their motives? 23:44:10 drewc: I just think there's constructive ways to call out ideas. Crushing someone's spirit and making them feel like they're so far from being good that they shouldn't even try isn't very constructive. 23:44:32 sykopomp: You seem to be smart. 23:44:34 sykopomp: what's you obsession with crushing spirits? 23:45:00 sykopomp: I think the confusion may be cleared with this statement: FEXPRs should indeed be first class. 23:45:26 nizze_: From skimming the points of the article, it seems wrong on all counts, IMHO. I don't feel like reading an article I know is at least mostly wrong just to make sure it's as wrong as I think it is ;P As an example, saying that macros are a big problem is just ridiculous. I absolutely COULDN'T FUCKING LIVE without macros now. I use them extensively every day. 23:45:27 I wouldn't call them FEXPRs if they werent'. 23:45:43 pkhuong_: were old FEXPRs first class, though? 23:45:50 sykopomp: i mean, we're talking about a programming language.. right? Not how to feel good about oneself regardless of the crap one produces :) 23:45:52 the DEFUN FOO FEXPR ... ones? 23:45:54 can somebody link the article again, i've joined after the links sent 23:46:07 pkhuong: yeah, me neither.. but it highlights what I think is meant when "first-class macros" are mentioned 23:46:34 minion: tell kenanb about logs 23:46:35 kenanb: please see logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 23:46:48 http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html 23:49:08 Almost 5 years and we're still discussion that poor excuse for an article? we should just start telling people that Yegge is right, CL stinks, go bother some other hackers... 23:49:17 discussing* 23:50:19 Yeah, it's a shame because I love Steve Yegge articles in general. But that one is misguided shit. 23:50:29 cue someone saying 'but reddit switched to python' and 'but paul graham says...' 23:51:17 should updatef "magically" recurse through all functions that have an updater defined? 23:51:50 Fare: what do you mean? 23:51:53 i.e. (updatef (car (cdr '(1 2 3)) 4) ==> (4 3) OR (1 4 3) 23:52:07 oh 23:52:25 Fare: no 23:52:34 Fare: I would say yes. 23:53:16 -!- nizze_ [~nisse@cs78250198.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53:27 *drewc* is on the fence 23:53:49 *`3b* votes 4 23:53:58 so (let ((x (cdr '(1 2 3)))) (updatef (car x) 4)) will give different results? 23:54:10 *Fare* wonders. 23:54:28 -!- msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has left #lisp 23:54:40 `3b: your answer defeats the whole purpose of updatef! 23:54:40 mm.. true. That is an issue. 23:55:11 <`3b> Fare: yeah, that was sort of the intent :) 23:55:12 (updatef (car (cdr '(1 2 3)) 4) => (4 3) seems mystifying 23:55:30 nizze_ [~nisse@cs78250198.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:55:58 *Fare* obviously hadn't thunk it through before implementing 23:55:59 <`3b> Fare: seems like it might be more useful as a binding form or something 23:56:14 `3b: OK. gimme a syntax for it. 23:56:54 binding? it's a monad 23:56:59 <`3b> Fare: if i tried, i'd probably fall into some DSL pit trying to build the ability to do multiple changes at once :) 23:57:12 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:57:13 drewc: what is your take 23:57:17 <`3b> monad magic stuff sounds equally valid 23:57:26 *`3b* knows nothing about monads though 23:58:05 What is 'asdf' ? 23:58:06 sabalaba [~sabalaba@61.48.71.133] has joined #lisp 23:58:12 <`3b> minion: tell nizze_ about asdf 23:58:13 nizze_: please look at asdf: ASDF (Another System Definition Facility) is an extensible build facility for Common Lisp software. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 23:58:38 (updatef (compose 'car 'cdr) '(1 2 3)) 4) ==> (1 4 3) ? 23:59:12 (update (cadr '(1 2 3)) 4) ==> (1 4 3) 23:59:13 :) 23:59:17 minion: Thanks 23:59:17 np 23:59:44 This is from Clojure book: "Clojure is Lisp reloaded. Clojure has the power inherent in Lisp but is not constrained by the history of Lisp." 23:59:45 *`3b* thinks someone should tell minion about emacs abbrevs before beach gets mad :) 23:59:49 What does it mean? 23:59:57 Fare: i'm not sure really. magically composing things seems a little too magical to me