00:01:29 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:02:00 antivigilante [~antivigil@wsip-70-166-115-251.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:07 schoppenhauer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has joined #lisp 00:04:11 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has quit [Changing host] 00:04:11 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:04:56 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:34 -!- p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:08:00 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-52.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 00:08:34 ... Wasn't there some mention a while ago about trying to derive VOP lifetime information from a machine-instruction model? 00:09:45 p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 00:11:54 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:12:42 How can I make an alist with variables as the values to a key? 00:12:52 I can't seem to ge the syntax down 00:13:14 nevermind, haha 00:13:17 I think I see it 00:13:40 nope 00:13:40 ,(list ('name . "sean")) 00:14:14 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:14:40 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 00:16:08 seangrove: (list (cons var value)) evaluates to an alist. var and value will be evaluated. 00:16:28 ah, thank you 00:16:53 seangrove: (let ((var "foo")) (acons :key value nil)) <--- /me prefers to use acons for alists 00:16:55 That worked 00:17:23 hmm 00:17:58 What is :key there for? 00:18:05 clhs acons 00:18:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_acons.htm 00:18:24 Is there anyway to get that reference inside my slime repl? 00:18:26 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-75-152.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:19:15 Ah, got it, the alist is for adding elements to the list 00:19:22 no, slime is not a web browser :) 00:19:38 heh, well, something like clojure's doc method 00:19:47 you could try (documentation 'acons 'function) 00:20:11 it's not going to get you to the hyperspec, and may not return anything at all 00:20:16 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A34B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:20:32 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu197.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:20:34 "C-c C-d h" will look something up in the hyperspec 00:20:36 you can C-c C-d h 00:20:54 *Xach* doesn't normally use that binding, has brain hardwired for firefox/chrome keyword "clhs" lookup 00:21:07 Heh, also awesome 00:21:09 Thanks! 00:21:24 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:21:37 Is there a shortcut for something like (cdr (assoc 'key ...)) ? 00:21:54 (defun cdr-assoc (...) ...) 00:21:55 afaik there are simple browsers that can be encapsulated inside an emacs buffer via some elisp code 00:22:13 i think there is something similar in alexandria. 00:22:39 but i never use it given that (cdr (assoc ...)) should only ever appear once in any given piece of code 00:22:59 You can use w3m-el to view the CLHS in Emacs, but not in Slime. 00:23:10 (defun my-data-lookup (key data) (cdr (assoc key data)) ...) etc 00:25:23 I did a bit of CL before, but found scheme very refreshing afterwards... then worked in clojure for awhile, and ready to give CL another try :) 00:25:33 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-75-152.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:56 attila_lendvai: hmm, i don't see any recent changes in a "darcs changes" in hu.dwim.util. should i? 00:27:18 And if I define a function like (defun example (&key name n e s w description), can I then get all of the arguments as an alist? 00:27:25 attila_lendvai: i still can't build hu.dwim.util.herror-handling 00:27:31 seangrove: no, but you can get them as a plist. 00:27:43 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-75-152.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:27:46 seangrove: (defun example (&rest args &key ...) ...) 00:27:57 Why weren't Scheme's predicate and side-effect procedure naming conventions adopted in CL? 00:28:30 Xach: Well, I guess I might need a macro in this case 00:28:33 drdo: nobody had hundreds of thousands of lines of scheme code that would benefit from making cl compatible, i guess. 00:28:44 But nevermind 00:28:57 Xach: It's not about making CL compatible or not, i think it's a good idea and makes code more readable 00:29:09 drdo: Well, by all means, adopt it in your own cl code. 00:29:11 I don't see any drawback 00:29:18 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:29:27 drdo: It looks different from all the other CL code. 00:29:27 drdo: because CL was a subset of many other dialects that were older than Scheme, and which probably prohibited ? use in symbol nams 00:29:30 *names 00:29:30 Xach: My question was clearly not that 00:29:52 So the reason was compatibility with previous dialects? 00:30:02 drdo: That seems likely to me, though I don't know for sure. 00:30:15 TomSlick` [~b@99-7-187-77.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:37 maybe it's in gigamonkey's email discussion archive. 00:31:18 I still don't agree with it if that's the reason though, i think that's a pretty bad reason 00:31:22 drdo: Scheme implementations can't get together after over 20 years. An old book on CL (circa '89) names ~5 implementations on the cover, ranging from dedicated hardware to then-common minis. 00:31:33 drdo: take it up with ANSI, or use another lisp! ;) 00:31:36 And it's also trivial to convert names to make your program work in CL 00:31:37 the code that had to be easily portable 00:31:46 Thanks for the help guys, off for tonight 00:32:06 drdo: not when you had to support *both* at the same time 00:32:19 also, Scheme back then was a small player (and afaik still is due to fragmntation) 00:32:40 really, of all the things to worry about in programming, naming conventions is rarely worth putting up a stink over. CL uses -p, scheme uses ? ... move on! 00:32:43 I wouldn't know, i was only born in 89 :D 00:33:17 drewc: CL doesn't really do that all over, and side effects don't have any special naming 00:33:27 drdo: so? 00:34:02 people have been making things work in CL for quite a while, and i don't think ATOM and NULL ever stopped anybody 00:34:09 So i think it's really useful to be able to look at code and know that nothing weird can happen if there is no '!' in names 00:34:23 Weird? 00:34:27 side effects 00:34:36 drdo: #haskell is that way ----> 00:35:38 p_l|home: Are you seriously arguing that reasoning about purely functional programs isn't easier? 00:35:41 Commonly mistyped as #askhell though... 00:35:53 we have the non-consistent #\n prefix for that destructive functions! 00:36:12 who said anything about reasoning.. 'round here we write programs! 00:36:29 *drewc* is done now. 00:36:41 This attitude of the CL community pisses me off quite a bit 00:36:56 "CL is the end all be all language, shut up" seems to be the general attitude around here 00:37:09 drdo: What, not being responsive to people with no experience who say "You should change everything you did because the decisions made in the past look stupid to me"? 00:37:15 -!- analogNoise [~analogNoi@wsip-98-173-194-19.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:37:22 drdo: I don't think that's unique to CL. 00:37:30 Xach: I asked the reason first 00:37:42 It honestly wasn't a good reason at all 00:37:44 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:37:53 It seems to me that you came looking for that attitude... 00:38:05 more like "ok, so 90% of the stuff can be accommodated by writing some code in CL" 00:38:15 drdo: I guess those people just weren't you 00:38:21 drdo: I think nobody will argue with you that purely functional programs are in some ways easier to reason about. 00:38:58 it's not only a question of backwards compatibility with code, it's also backwards compatibility with people's existing knowledge, books, etc. 00:39:05 in short, tradition 00:39:28 chaslemley [~chaslemle@h184.197.140.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:32 Genosh: I was mainly arguing that "compatibility with some existing dialects" is a pretty bad reason 00:39:38 -!- chaslemley [~chaslemle@h184.197.140.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:53 chaslemley [~chaslemle@h184.197.140.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:01 drdo: then you miss the point of Common Lisp 00:40:13 drdo: Why is it a bad reason? 00:40:13 adeht: By all means i want to be educated 00:40:35 Genosh: hinders evolution 00:40:42 drdo: CL was the pragmatic solution to end something that could be as destructive as Unix Wars 00:41:47 drdo: http://dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf 00:41:57 p_l|home: it probably was adequate at the time for a very immediate practical need 00:41:58 I don't think a change from 'p' to '?' that doesn't affect semantics does hinder evolution as much as it's just a needed aesthetical decission. 00:42:37 Genosh: If the reason was backwards compatibility, semantics rank way higher than mere naming 00:42:55 Having the same names but different semantics is way worse for that purpose 00:43:14 drdo: gigamonkey gave an informative talk on approximately this topic last week. i hope he can make the audio available sometime soon. 00:43:54 Would appreciate it :) 00:44:20 drdo: one of his points was that at this distance, it seems like some choices in CL were made out of ignorance of what we now consider good practice, but that wasn't generally the case at all. many smart people discussed hairy issues in depth and weighed a lot of different considerations in coming up with a standardized way to do things. 00:44:35 sorry, "it seems like" is more like "it might seem like" 00:44:39 drdo: the funny thing is that the existence of ANSI standard is what made me finally use Lisp, since I went mad trying to reconcile various schemes 00:44:41 Xach: I'm sure of that 00:45:04 Although committees aren't really a very good way to do imho 00:45:10 drdo: Well, it's hard to reconcile "I'm sure of that" with "They should have used scheme's conventions." 00:45:26 er'day is troll day in #lisp, eh? 00:45:50 p_l|home: That doesn't bother me the least bit actually 00:46:46 Xach: I've moved away from that particular point, i'm just saying that backwards compatibility isn't good when designing a programming language 00:47:46 drdo: again, not everybody shares your values 00:47:47 drdo: Are you making the specific claim that "Backwards compatibility wasn't good for Common Lisp"? 00:48:42 Xach: It probably made sense if the purpose of the language was to unite lisp programmers at the time 00:49:22 drdo: The problem faced at the time was DARPA saying "Come up with a single Lisp standard we can use or we will stop writing checks for Lisp projects." 00:51:47 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:51:52 outch 00:52:02 qbomb [~qbomb@208.86.11.55] has joined #lisp 00:52:06 Peter's talk is pretty great. 00:52:12 *Xach* really hopes it gets out there soon 00:53:14 i think using "p" is a very good way for predicates, there may be some confusion about which ones are "p" or "-p", i would understand that a bit if you would ask especially this, but then, i love auto-completion 00:53:19 Xach: Is there any chance the ILC talks are getting out? 00:53:54 kenanb: There is no issue when you write code, it's when you read it that it matters 00:54:04 Scheme is also inconsistent in naming.. I don't understand why the preference should be ? over P 00:54:24 drdo: what? 00:54:38 And the more useful part is actually the side-effect part 00:55:11 drdo: What would be an example way to write it under the side-effect naming style? 00:55:28 drdo: I didn't get an encouraged feeling about the videos being made available. 00:55:30 how hard would it be to understand a symbol with p at last ? 00:55:54 kenanb: It isn't consistent in CL 00:56:16 and neither is the n thing 00:56:35 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-56-167.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:56:46 Xach: I find it quite useful to know that a function has side effects by merely look at the name 00:56:50 drdo: consistency was not a design goal of CL. 00:57:00 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-32-94.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:57:24 drdo: Right, but what did you have in mind, specifically? 00:57:30 drdo: what would (setf (cdr foo) 42) become? 00:57:32 drewc: Yes, that's what i was asking 00:57:56 drdo: this doesn't bother CL users very much. 00:58:41 It could be for example setf!, but setf doesn't bother me very much, it's quite clear 00:59:03 Things like DELETE though, aren't very clear 00:59:09 clhs delete 00:59:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 00:59:13 clear enough 00:59:26 drewc: Stop the trolling please 00:59:42 drdo: pot, kettle? 01:00:16 drdo: in Scheme and other languages that use the ! convention you also don't get consistency 01:00:40 adeht: I'm not claiming Scheme has perfect consistency 01:00:55 so ! is never a necessary and sufficient condition for destructiveness 01:01:27 DEFINE probably being the obvious example 01:02:00 It boggles my mind how people get confused about P VS -P for predicate names. One word? P. More than one word? -P. IS IT THAT HARD?? 01:02:13 Hexstream: that's not the convention 01:02:18 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-75-152.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:22 Is it not?... 01:02:34 Hexstream: It boggles my mind how people turn up in the middle of a conversation without reading it from the beginning 01:02:41 if anything, scheme and cl are both too consistent for my tastes .. i love kernel's #\$ prefix for forms with non-standard evaluation :) 01:02:46 drdo: I did, in fact. 01:03:00 it boggles my mind how #lisp gets more trolls / day than any other channel I have ever frequented 01:03:35 Lots of mind boggling around, all of a sudden. 01:03:40 schmrkc: people are so used to having things sold to them that the end up trolling for a salesmen. We're all programmers here :) 01:04:18 drewc: This actually makes sense. wow 01:04:19 Hexstream: the convention you're referring to is described in CLtL, where FOO-BAR-P and FOO-BARP are distinguished 01:04:37 Ohh, yeah, that's right. 01:04:45 drewc: I had a look at kernel just now in the wikipedia. The $ prefix seems super cool :) 01:05:02 first-class "macros". mind boggling 01:05:17 But I think for about 100% of Common Lisp itself, you don't need to know the finer points (though of course it's always good to know..) 01:05:57 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:06:01 Hexstream: hehe.. I actually always use -P 01:06:04 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has left #lisp 01:06:08 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 01:06:48 I was merely asking about why things are the way they are, people mentioned historical reasons, i stated that i think that's a pretty bad reason, that's all, end of story 01:07:02 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@56.Red-88-11-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 01:07:09 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu197.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:07:51 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-75-152.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:07:56 drdo: if this is the end of the story, what's your problem/ 01:08:11 a pretty bad reason.. wow. 01:08:48 schmrkc: Why is it a good reason? 01:08:57 drdo: There were many lisps. people needed 'em unified without having to rewrite everything. CL was agreed upon. How is this a bad reason? 01:09:20 drdo: How would you design a 100% brand new and perfectly coherent language that filled this purpose? 01:10:02 schmrkc: I haven't thought about that extensively enough 01:10:09 drdo: I'm not exactly a strong supporter of backwards compatibility, especially when it gets majorly in the way of progress, but if there's an existing convention dictating P over ?, I don't see why the FUCK not go for backwards compatibility since it's a bit arbitrary and irrelevant. 01:10:21 I'm merely saying that designing a new programming language with such constraints is not very good 01:10:43 Hexstream: That was never my argument 01:10:49 Silly naming issues are not really big "constraints"... 01:10:56 ok, no more feeding the troll! 01:11:04 I never claimed superiority of ? over p 01:11:09 Please read more carefully 01:11:27 Hexstream: No one is talking about ? and p :) 01:11:54 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:11:56 obviously p wins because it easier to type on the keyboard anyway 01:12:02 Hexstream: during standardization many important flaws were fixed, sometimes at the cost of backwards compatibility.. coming up with a new-fangled non-tranditional naming scheme simply wasn't a priority 01:12:11 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 01:12:26 Uh. I'm pretty sure I read that first of all he thought ? would have been better, then asked why not have decided on that, then backwards compatibility was given as a reason and he said it was a bad reason... No? 01:13:04 drdo: btw. I'm pretty sure everyone will agree with you that CL is far from ideal. 01:14:02 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-75-152.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:14:12 Hexstream: quote it 01:14:53 schmrkc: That's a start, it's quite hard to discuss things here 01:15:14 Everyone has a religious stance towards CL 01:15:17 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:15:29 drdo: please, enough with the trolling! 01:15:37 Can't be bothered. 01:15:58 drdo: yes, infidel 01:16:31 drdo: You must be kidding. It is totally easy to discuss here, and I don't think anyone has a religious stance towards CL. Only one who seems to have problems discussing + the totally fixed religious stance is you. 01:17:13 schmrkc: How is that? (me being the one with the religious stance) 01:17:16 schmrkc: what did i say about feeding trolls damnit! 01:18:11 drewc: Yes, i clearly came to #lisp at 2 in the morning to troll about random shit because i had nothing better to do 01:18:29 you're not the first 01:19:06 argh, where is cxml-stp git? 01:19:07 drewc: Ya you're right. I'll stop it. It is SO easy to get sucked in 01:19:14 drdo: I gave you a link to that HOPL paper. if you want to learn something, read it 01:19:25 drdo: At last some admissions of guilt. 01:19:27 especially when emacs is trying to start.. need.. to do something.. with my time 01:19:55 Xach: I use http://www.lichteblau.com/git/cxml-stp.git 01:19:55 Hexstream: You clearly missed the sarcasm 01:20:08 You clearly missed MY sarcasm. 01:20:27 Hexstream: How is that loopless library working out? 01:20:28 Let's have a sarcasm war 01:20:39 drdo: you've been abrasive and generally belligerent since you arrived, and you've done nothing but attack the responses you've been given. You've also made derogatory statements about the lisp community in general. If your goal was not to troll, i suggest you go get some sleep and try again later. 01:20:59 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx56-2a-238.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:21:40 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:22:06 drewc: I just said i don't agree with backwards compatibility as a design goal of a new programming language, that's all 01:22:35 drdo: CL isn't a new programming language though. Backward compatibility *was* an explicit design goal for CL. 01:22:43 schmrkc: Depends, on what level? You expressing interest about what's happening with LOOPless is the most exciting thing that has happened with LOOPless recently. 01:22:58 drdo: you try to criticize the motives behind the design of the language, people needed to design a backwards compatible language and done that 01:23:24 kenanb: Yes, i understand that 01:23:35 I even said that myself 01:23:43 drdo: that's good, so why are you here? CL was designed with backwards compatibility in mind. This was a design goal, and the reason it exists. 01:23:50 I expect much more would have been different than -p versus ?, if a fresh start had been the goal... but then, that's what Scheme is for. 01:24:21 drdo: if you don't think CL is a well designed language, don't use it and leave those who do alone in their obvious intellectual inferiority. 01:24:24 pkhuong_: That was just the initial question i asked 01:24:30 *Fare* regrets CL not having taken the route of keeping separate packages for backward compatibility and future compatibility 01:24:34 The discussion the progressed into general backwards compatibilit 01:24:37 *compatibility 01:24:41 *then 01:24:56 *Fare* notes that it is still time to do that for a "CLtL3" 01:25:04 drewc: Who is the troll now? 01:25:27 That statement there just ilustrates really well what i said about religion 01:25:57 you want to distinguish NIL '() #f, to deprecate EQ except as an internal, etc.? Fine! 01:26:18 Fare: I wish that for ASDF2, too. 01:26:18 Just make your own different CLtL3 package that redefines everything. 01:26:32 Xach, you think I'm too incompatible with ASDF1 ? 01:26:41 *Fare* goes put on a brown bag. 01:26:52 Hexstream: Well just curious. and trying to interrupt the OMG CL SUX trolling :) 01:26:58 Hexstream: I like loop meself ;) 01:27:16 yes, i'm a religious nutjob who knows nothing outside of his little CL based microcosm, and so is everyone who's opinion is more informed then yours. I've also asked you to stop trolling. I won't ask again ;) 01:27:17 Hehe, ok. 01:27:23 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:27:52 what's LOOPless? 01:28:02 it's the loop killer 01:28:06 no we're all curious :P 01:28:10 *now 01:28:17 is it anything like Olin Shivers' loop? 01:28:25 Fare: A library I made as an alternative to LOOP. It's hosted at http://github.com/Hexstream/loopless 01:28:30 Fare: no, nothing like that in CL yet. 01:28:59 Hexstream: That'll be $500 for the marketing stunt I pulled there. 01:29:03 Hexstream, where's the doc / tutorial? 01:29:09 It's not "more of the same" monolithic design like ITERATE. The README will give you a good idea of what it's about. 01:29:13 or at least examples 01:29:26 *Fare* looks at the state of fare-utils and hides. 01:29:27 There's examples.lisp in the distribution. 01:29:36 I missed religious discussion 01:30:04 Can you like, compress it to me in one word? 01:31:14 syntard: Only if it's a german word. 01:31:14 hehe 01:31:14 syntard: cl-consistent-p 01:31:14 syntard: Trolling. 01:31:14 wunderbar 01:31:31 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:33:29 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Nighty night] 01:33:52 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:33:53 Hexstream, your downfrom is packageless as in CL:LOOP ? 01:33:55 is movitz still maintened? 01:34:04 Fare: Yes. 01:34:09 yuck 01:34:22 That design decision is not set in stone. 01:34:41 I just thought since it's based on LOOP, might as well adopt its conventions by default. 01:34:44 why use LL: when you :use loopless ? 01:35:12 To help newbies who can't distinguish what's in CL and what's in LL. To make the distinction extra clear. 01:35:23 why (let (form) (while* (setf form ...) ... instead of (let ((form ...) (while* form ... -- pure is better 01:35:26 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-52.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:35:26 -!- pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:35:26 -!- Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:35:29 I wonder if read-preserving-whitespace secretly calls read with a secret preserve-whitespace-p parameter 01:35:30 For example, I have an example in there that doesn't actually use anything provided by LOOPless... 01:35:32 Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 01:35:45 pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 01:35:51 why for* and while* instead of for and while? 01:36:17 syntard, the other way around, I'd say 01:36:37 To avoid potential symbol conflicts with LOOP's messy interning policy. 01:36:38 Fare: my lord 01:37:39 so your for* is an iterator closure? 01:37:39 Maybe that wasn't necessary. I just erred on the side of caution. 01:38:41 Not sure what you mean by that... btw the code is documented. FOR* has a nice big docstring. 01:38:42 BillyR [43a45d64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.164.93.100] has joined #lisp 01:39:02 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:27 Hexstream, frankly your loopless examples look ugly. Give me series or iterate! 01:39:29 When I'm done releasing my next library I'll probably come back to LOOPless to put extract all the comments in the source into texinfo format and then expand it. 01:40:07 Maybe the examples are just bad, I don't remember exactly ;P 01:40:08 i'm new to lisp - is there a lisp on windows that can manipulate Excel thru COM interface? 01:40:28 BillyR, probably the commercial lisps can do that easily. 01:40:35 ECL might do that, too. 01:40:51 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.72] has joined #lisp 01:40:55 Thanks Fare 01:41:02 I'm building ECL right now btw, with cygwin 01:41:31 Fare: Well, first of all if you don't have one bit of hatred towards LOOP then LOOPless will likely be USEless to you. 01:41:49 BillyR, dunno about CCL. You can probably skip CLISP, SBCL, ABCL and GCL in your quest. 01:41:52 BillyR: the commercial ones can do that easily (ACL, LW, Corman), ECL can incorporate C code directly, and all CFFI-compatible implementation can use FFI to necessary windows libs, but I don't remember the name of the project that had the bindings prewritten (clisp-ole?) 01:42:05 BillyR: I believe LispWorks has OLE support 01:42:17 Hexstream, I have hatred enough for LOOP. But your "solutions" are just ugly. 01:42:22 and not general enough. 01:42:34 give me Olin Shivers's LOOP. 01:42:44 Never heard of... 01:42:46 BTW, is there a O.S. LOOP for Racket? 01:42:56 BillyR: don't touch GCL, CLISP I dunno, ABCL is Java, LW, ACL and possibly Corman will have OLE support included 01:43:08 Will I get a prize for building sbcl with ecl? 01:43:17 Hexstream, if you dare write a loop replacement without having seen his presentation, you suck. 01:43:23 syntard: no 01:43:42 p_l|home:thanks 01:43:48 Fare: You might want to read LOOPless's README if you want to know what the hell my design goals are, maybe you'll know why I did some of the things I did then. 01:43:49 adeht:thanks 01:44:03 syntard: you might get one if you manage to rebuild CMUCL from scratch using only source and not touching CMUCL binaries :> 01:44:17 (insert evil laugh here) 01:44:18 haha 01:44:25 "Having good original ideas is no excuse for not knowing good established ideas. Your supra-fast turbo engine won't be much good when attached to square wheels." 01:44:44 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-140-250.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:06 Most so-called LOOP "replacements" have as a basic assumption that the concept of LOOP (a monolithic, "powerful" iteration construct) is good, it's just the implementation that's bad. LOOPless does entirely away with the concept of a monolithic iteration construct instead. 01:45:54 you don't understand that LOOP has some modularity that you don't replace. 01:46:17 Shivers does the things right, allowing one to do things modularly AND extensibly. 01:46:40 (oh, and some common LOOP implementations ARE extensible) 01:46:46 there's also ITERATE and REITERATE :) 01:46:59 REITERATE? Haven't seen this one. 01:47:22 Fare: .hu attempt 01:47:41 Fare: there's also drewc's attempt at ITERATE without codewalker, iirc 01:48:11 Fare: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.reiterate;a=summary 01:48:32 dwim.hu should get mirrors. 01:48:41 -!- btbngr [~btbgnr@212.183.140.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:48:55 I'll have a look at Olin Shivers's LOOP later, then tell you what I think about it. 01:50:15 p_l|home: my ITERATE was more an attempt to show it could be done then an attempt to replace iterate. I'm a happy LOOP user when i'm not recursing, or monading 01:50:21 and of course, you can expose iterator closures. 01:50:25 and combinators 01:50:48 and flatten closures at runtime (: 01:51:14 reiterate is in quicklisp. 01:51:40 Fare: One of LOOPless's design goals is not to try to "subvert" what's already provided by Common Lisp, except for LOOP of course. 01:52:43 it should also be fairly easy and interesting to come up with a Alexandrescu-esque range-based library 01:52:47 *drewc* doesn't see how a bunch of MAP-* functions are meant to replace loop 01:53:00 pkhuong_, are you using Graph Reduction As Lazy Evaluation ? 01:53:04 series, otoh, is something i have to investigate further 01:53:34 Most uses of LOOP need only a tiny bit of its power. 01:53:41 Graph Reduction As Interpreting Lazily 01:53:55 Xach: what isn't? 01:54:03 Fare: no. Just a hack to recompile trees of closures at runtime. 01:54:14 (compile (compose ...)) ? 01:54:25 for instance, yes. 01:54:27 eheh flaming questions pop-up tonight 01:54:46 does SBCL actually optimize that? 01:54:49 Fare: gbbopen 01:54:57 pkhuong_: sounds like just my kind of thing! 01:54:59 Fare: not right now, no. 01:55:06 or (let ((fun ...)) (compile-again (lambda (...) (map ... fun ...)))) 01:55:41 Hexstream, combinators would get you closer to that goal that a boring collection of functions covering a tiny subset of what one may want to do 01:55:46 drewc: I'd bet if you had a look at all the instances of LOOP usage in your codebases, you'd realize that a lot of them are "idiomatic" simple usages like (loop for (key value) on my-plist by #'cddr collect whatever) and stuff. 01:56:10 Hexstream: same thought as Fare, actually. Seems like you're looking for combinators, with, maybe a thin layer of macros over that. 01:56:15 Hexstream: and? 01:56:28 -!- BillyR [43a45d64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.164.93.100] has left #lisp 01:57:00 drewc: What's the purpose of having an overly complex and "powerful" construct if you always use it for the same "idiomatic" simple usages? 01:57:15 uh-oh... 01:57:25 Hexstream, and you'd realize that allowing to modularly specify the source and the sink of data is powerful, not to mention returns, accessing partial state of the collection, etc. 01:57:31 Hexstream: i don't understand the question. 01:57:57 *redline6561* laughs pretty hard 01:58:06 Hexstream: always/most 01:58:07 Hexstream: maybe you're just considering it from the static, written once and for all, side.. 01:58:32 iterating over several structures simultaneously, computing based on bindings from previous such iterations, etc. 01:58:34 kenanb: Yeah, well it's a lot of the time. 01:58:45 Hexstream: I wouldn't say overly complex myself but... (looks for something to say about the "CL" way) 01:58:56 the purpose of the construct is to iterate, i use it for iterating... the apparent complexity of a loop compiler doesn't concern me, someone else has already written it and it expands to simple code. 01:59:08 if you want really powerful stuff, also look at type derivatives, zippers, etc. 01:59:08 but is it safe? 01:59:22 Hexstream: from a dynamic point of view, the fact that adapting a loop form to a slightly different use case isn't a big deal is a big deal :) 01:59:27 Hexstream: I ought to let the old guard speak on this. I'm just saying. CL has lots of knobs and history would indicate that they're there for a reason. 01:59:32 Your code is just puny amateur stuff by someone wholly ignorant of the issues either practical or theoretical 01:59:56 ok, we really have an urge to create chaos in channel today 02:00:02 kenanb: Seriously. 02:00:36 Hexstream: What I'm saying is, if you're looking for a nice minimal language that just consists of idioms you'll use every day...that isn't CL. 02:00:57 Kinda getting overwhelmed ;P 02:01:38 readline6561: which is it? 02:02:02 syntard: cpp ofcourse 02:02:11 haha 02:02:23 redline6561, a language made everyday idioms would be LARGE. A minimal language would provide the essential concepts in a modular way. 02:02:27 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-12-158.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:02:40 syntard: I don't know...but if it exists I'll try to mention it. 02:02:41 Hexstream's puny library is both largish and inexpressive 02:02:49 Fare: Indeed. I was trying to make a point but...rather failed. :P 02:02:53 Fare: I was looking for a fairly small set of macros/functions that I would consider comfortable enough as an alternative to LOOP that I'd virtually never feel a need to use it anymore except in extremely rare cases. I have succeeded in that goal. I have removed LOOP from my code 100% in a way that I find pleasant. 02:03:02 Hexstream: a full LOOP implementation is ~1kloc . Your LOOPless code i ~0.5 kloc and does significantly less then LOOP does... what's the advantage? 02:03:11 significantly less than half* 02:03:46 keeping in mind that i don't see 'not using loop' as an advantage any more than 'not using lambda'. 02:03:48 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:29 Hexstream: Quoting Vladimir Sedach quoting some guy on HN: 'if you asked a question some Norwegian guy would flame you so hard you would *actually die*.' 02:04:30 Fare: LOOPless is not trying to be a marvel of engineering. Admittedly, any fucking newb could implement it. 02:04:34 kloc? kilocalori? 02:04:37 -!- chaslemley [~chaslemle@h184.197.140.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:43 Hexstream: Actually, I think that was about the cll newsgroup but whatever. Hooray #lisp! 02:04:50 We have mostly given up loop, but are very happy using ITERATE. 02:04:50 :p 02:05:06 *Fare* /ignore Hexstream 02:05:20 I was happy using ITERATE until I came to the conclusion I hate the concept of a monolithic iteration construct ;P 02:05:50 *drewc* spends his time writing code, not worrying about looping constructs or naming conventions. Is he alone in this preference? 02:05:56 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-140-250.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:06:00 drewc: All the time or right now? :P 02:06:01 Uh, what? I enraged Fare or something? That doesn't even make sense. 02:06:01 I am happy using iterate because I love the actuality of a powerful construct. 02:06:17 Hexstream: many people here work under the assumption that we try to produce good code. 02:06:26 Hexstream: It seems like you're happy using lisp. That's wonderful. Keep doing so. <-- We all agree on this much, right? 02:06:29 or, failing that, useful code. 02:06:29 rpg: anything we need before we release 2.010 / 2.200 ? 02:06:29 If my library is crap, so what? It's not exactly the pride of my career. It was a little shit I made in about 3 days. 02:06:39 Actually, I'll leave the 2.200 thing to the new maintainer. 02:06:55 I just want to get an ASDF that will be in all implementations. 02:07:21 Fare: I would like to get the :here (or whatever) directive in, but I am up to my butt writing statements of work, instead of writing code, so won't get to any hobby programming this week. 02:07:27 Hexstream: yeah, but we love to offer critique :) 02:07:36 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-178-106.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:07:48 rpg: should I release 2.010 without that feature? 02:07:52 Fare: My two big tickets are going to languish for a while (:here and the version). 02:08:01 Hexstream: "It may suck, but at least it wasn't hard to write" is not generally a good defense of a project. 02:08:15 "The food is terrible, and the portions so small!" 02:08:34 felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-197-38.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:35 Hexstream: well, we hope you'd like to become a better programmer and not spend your time writing 'shit' Why are you here if not to learn and improve! 02:08:51 Fare: I suppose so --- adding the :here directive will be backwards compatible, since it's a simple extension. And getting the COMPONENT-VERSION right won't break anything, either. 02:09:06 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:11 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-12-158.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:19 Xach: LOOPless is super useful to me. It let me banish LOOP from my codebases entirely and that pleases me. Don't you like it when you like your code?.. 02:09:43 Xach: it's generally a good defense of my perl one-liners ;-) 02:10:04 I've got a couple surprises for you guys, let's say. 02:10:06 drewc: I seem to recall something in the logs about you possibly releasing the source to a web application you're working on (UCW or otherwise)... 02:10:28 I made a few libraries that are actually very useful and were actually very hard to implement. 02:10:31 drewc: Am I remembering right? You're always so strongly opinionated I thought it would be interested to read. I realize it's not done yet, etc. 02:10:41 I just have to cleanup the stuff and document it. 02:10:42 s/interested/interesting/ 02:10:42 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:10:50 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:57 redline6561: i can't think of any project in UCW that i'll be open-sourcing. I only use UCW in legacy projects these days, and they are all proprietary 02:11:09 Sometimes all I manage to do is write libraries that are useless and were very hard to implement.... 02:11:20 rpg: i have a lot of those :) 02:11:26 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:11:30 I think it's pretty stupid that everyone thinks I can't code shit just because the only library I properly released yet is apparently not useful and just wasn't super hard to make. 02:11:37 drewc: Hmm. Who knows then. Thanks. 02:12:23 redline6561: the ALU wiki code is UCW, though not idiomatic nor a good example : http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/ucliki.tar.gz 02:12:43 drewc: Duly noted. 02:12:51 -!- vIkSiT [~viksit@unaffiliated/viksit] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:13:44 gko [~gko@111.82.144.37] has joined #lisp 02:14:31 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-24.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 02:14:35 Hexstream: you're the first to mention your abilities to code. There have been negative comments, but they were all directed at the project and even its very raison d'etre, but not to its creator, that I can tell. 02:14:50 Hexstream: you shouldn't be so defensive about code you've written... nobody has talked about your abilities 02:15:33 Fare: you can't access dwim.hu? works fine from here (there was a few minutes reboot some hours ago) 02:15:58 attila_lendvai, I can access it, it's just painfully slow -- though I've seen it much worse. 02:16:25 Fare: slow!? which operation? 02:16:58 Well, I feel like it would be super easy to think I'm one of those guys who likes to nitpick endlessly about "issues" such as LOOP and can't code jackshit. Sorry but that annoys me ;P 02:17:08 attila_lendvai: hi there 02:17:33 attila_lendvai: I think i'm doing something wrong with hu.dwim.util. i didn't see any updates regarding sb-debug when i did a pull. should i do something different? 02:17:47 Releasing LOOPless as my first "usable" (in the sense of documented) library may have been a mistake, at least on the, uh, "personal marketing" side ;P 02:18:07 Also, it would be nice if you provided a copy/pastable "darcs clone ..." command without having to click around much if at all. 02:19:17 Xach: baaah, I have the changes in unrecorded form... just a sec 02:19:39 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:57 Fare: that site could have a bit of facelifting, I know... :) check out documentation/install guide, it has copy/paste'able stuff 02:20:04 attila_lendvai, do you have experience going from darcs to git? 02:20:31 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-24.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:20:58 Fare: the only time I went from darcs to git was with cvs repos I converted to darcs, but then I gave up and joined the crowd (sbcl, slime). 02:21:16 gcl passes 16 out of 27 asdf test scripts... in one, it somehow unfbinds merge-pathnames* (!!!!) 02:22:31 -!- gko [~gko@111.82.144.37] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 02:22:40 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:23:00 Xach: pull hu.dwim.util 02:23:09 and thanks for the heads up! 02:23:25 Hexstream: well, to me your library is as silly as a library that exports SET-CAR, SET-CDR, SET-AREF, SET-HASH etc... it's not that i think you're a poor developer, having never worked with you, it's just that i think the effort is misguided. 02:23:34 Ok, so would THAT be a useful library?? http://paste.lisp.org/display/115976 It's already all implemented, I just need to cleanup and finish documentation. 02:24:03 d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has joined #lisp 02:25:46 I'm seriously considering "retiring" LOOPless from public view. At least I don't think I'll make any future effort at "marketing" it in the future. At least you can be sure as fuck I'm not starting another discussion about it on #lisp. The consensus is clear: it's shit that nobody would use except if they happened to be named "Hexstream", darnit. 02:26:38 If you rotate nicks you could increase coverage ... 02:27:00 Stop worry about what a bunch of old fossils think and do what makes sense to you. 02:27:14 It might be that talking to them will change what makes sense to you, but that's another issue. 02:27:35 List was founded on a solid base of stupid ideas. Don't let that stop now just because they managed to get an ansi standard. 02:27:48 Zhivago: well put! :) 02:28:08 s/worry/worrying/ 02:31:28 Speaking of which, I realized the other day that C++ is really about a user extensible machine word set. 02:31:31 Zhivago: Thanks... 02:32:23 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:33:08 According to my experience, the fossils are usually right so it's a bit overwhelming to yell that my library is useless shit in unison. 02:33:26 *Xach* wonders if emo-driven development wil be a new fad 02:33:30 Uh, malformed sentence but you get what I mean. 02:33:52 Xach: Ah fuck, you can be fucking annoying sometimes. Seriously. 02:34:04 Had to be said! Can't help it! 02:34:20 Hexstream: There are many more ways to be wrong than to be right, so conservatism tends in that direction. 02:34:32 How do you really feel? 02:34:32 Agreed. 02:34:51 Pissed? 02:35:08 They sell adult nappies for that, I think. 02:35:16 I feel like one feels after failing a trial by fire. 02:35:22 Hexstream: the trick is to figure out why the fossils hold this opinion, and figure out if they're right or wrong. This requires first accepting their opinion as valid and trying to understand how they came to it. 02:35:49 Well, or not accepting it as valid and then doing so. 02:36:42 well, accepting that there may indeed be something behind that opinion, at least enough not to reject it outright. 02:36:52 wow i sense tension 02:37:08 Purely sexual. 02:37:15 I'm pretty sure that LOOP is a mistake. And I say that after having fallen in love with it, used it, hated it, switched to iterate, loved it, used it a lot, then coming to the conclusion I don't like the concept of a monolithic construct, then coming up with alternatives, which culminated with LOOPless, that I then used to replace all LOOP instances with alternatives in all my codebases. 02:37:32 is scheme any better? 02:37:56 Hexstreme: And what's the problem with that? 02:38:05 Hexstream: So you're happy. Life is good. 02:38:22 rme: Pretty much. 02:38:29 Hexstream: I think that there's probably a final phase in your looply evolution. 02:38:51 I don't think it's going back to using LOOP all the time. 02:38:52 Hexstream: Which is to then go and say "Well, loop is ok for some idioms." 02:39:24 "But I wouldn't want to use it for complex flow control or in general." 02:39:40 LOOP is just too easy to use and abuse. It's all-encompassing and seductive. But fuck all that. 02:39:57 Things like (loop for x from 0 to 10 collect x) 02:40:26 but first it stays for what it does 02:41:18 (LL:maptimes #'identity 11) ;P 02:41:31 Yeah, except that's worse. 02:41:41 yes shorter but more cryptic 02:41:42 Why? 02:41:46 There's a tension between idiomatic and general expression. 02:41:59 I don't see how that's cryptic. 02:42:09 Don't you use MAPC/MAPCAR/MAPCAN? 02:42:13 You've swung over to the general side at the moment, and it produces code that's less idiomatic and harder to grasp the intent of. 02:42:15 Well, maybe not MAPC. 02:42:25 Sure, but I use them in idiomatic ways. 02:42:51 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 02:42:59 harder to grasp maybe that one was ok, but in more complex things it would or could get awry 02:43:01 I don't try to replace dolist with mapc, for example. 02:43:23 Zhivago: Me neither. 02:43:32 Now, were the example something less idiomatic, I'd certainly agree with using maptimes, etc. 02:43:49 Well, it's true that LL:MAPTIMES and pals aren't all that idiomatic. It's a bit of the seam in the design. But I made many other mapcar-like functions that are pretty idiomatic... 02:44:20 Well, that may be -- but a large part of the power of idioms is in shared idioms. 02:44:24 Hexstream: not when the idiom is to use LOOP for those cases 02:44:31 I really like MAPALIST, MAPALIST*, MAPPLIST and pals. 02:44:48 drewc: That's a broken idiom ;P 02:44:56 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:45:00 Hexstream: basically, pidgin loop is fine, even though full fledged loop can easily turn into an unreadable mess. 02:45:04 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:09 Hexstream: ever work on a team? 02:45:09 I'm a bit of a nonconformist, sorry. 02:45:21 drewc: No! 02:45:21 Hexastream: There's nothing wrong with mapalist although I'd prefer map-alist for a name, etc. 02:45:32 Hexstream: ok, that's all i really needed to know. 02:45:33 I don't intend to either. 02:45:59 MAPALIST follows the lead of MAPLIST. 02:46:03 So, essentially what you've done is to (in these examples) replace shared idioms with unshared idioms that are generalized just enough to make them ugly. 02:46:47 I agree with the "unshared idioms" part. 02:47:04 I don't understand what you mean by "generalized just enough", though. 02:47:14 Hexstream: playing nice with others is an important part of learning any programming language, imo. If you're an amateur and don't plan on releasing libraries that you want people to use, do whatever you want :) 02:47:23 MAPALIST operates under exactly the same principles as MAPLIST... 02:47:27 When you have to put #'identity in ... 02:48:20 Hexstream: you should see some of the repl shortcuts and DSL's i've created for personal use and to play with... horribly un-idiomatic and non-lispy. 02:48:23 drewc: Hah, fuck that shit. The libraries that I'll release will be so good people will be FORCED to use them ;P 02:48:37 Hexstream: Excellent. Get to work then. 02:48:53 Hexstream: right-o, you keep telling yourself that. 02:49:00 Zhivago: I'm at the start of a ~365 days cleanup and documentation effort. 02:49:45 nobody uses lisp 02:49:59 nobody complains a lot. :) 02:50:12 hehe 02:50:19 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:35 drewc: Did you understand that my super cool libraries are already implemented? ;P It can't be that hard of a job to cleanup and document them... Right? ;P 02:51:21 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:51:27 nobody is a statements machine 02:51:42 Some of you will eat back their words. J'EN FAIS LE SERMENT!! 02:52:20 Hexstream: Then all you need to do is to convince people to use them. 02:52:26 who wants to bet that if Hexstream is around in 5 years he'll be laughing at how naive his LOOPless idea was? 02:52:30 _danb_ [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:52:39 Hexstream: Piggybacking on something like alexandria might work. 02:53:09 drewc: What if I win? 02:53:41 Depends on how old . is 02:53:47 Actually, the bet should be something like: "Will I still be opposed to the idea of a monolithic all-encompassing looping construct in 5 years"? 02:54:06 LOOPless may not be the right answer, but LOOP certainly isn't ;P 02:54:15 Have you gone through the "just use recursion" phase yet? 02:54:23 I think so. 02:54:33 Maybe not to the same extent that a scheme user would have. 02:54:35 Why did you stop? 02:54:36 ok, what was your original intention then ? why do you fear a monolithic thing ? 02:54:56 I felt it obscured the purpose of the code. 02:55:02 does that imply ineffectiveness or do you connotate that meaning to it ? 02:55:06 felideon` [~felideon@adsl-64-225-248.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:07 but the argument was, LOOP is a modular thing 02:55:20 Hexstream: if you are still lisping in 5 years and are still advocating something like LOOPless, there is little hope :P 02:56:04 In 5 years, nobody will give a shit about LOOPless because it will be one thing I'm "obviously fucking dead wrong" among many great contributions I made to the community. 02:56:14 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-197-38.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:56:15 I think it will take less than 5 years, too. 02:56:17 (note that thinking LOOPless is crap does not mean i think LOOP is the end of the road for iteration construct design) 02:56:25 -!- felideon` is now known as felideon 02:57:18 Hexstream: I have been wrong about many things, but if I hadn't been interested enough to push them as far as I could, I wouldn't have learned much. 02:58:26 enuf with the loop, there are plenty more things to discuss, format, the lisp-n thing 02:58:26 Well, for what it's worth, I haven't really been in a situation where I felt the "LOOPless approach" was inappropriate. 02:58:45 One might however attribute that to bad taste. And they do ;p 02:58:58 Yes, FORMAT. Let's discuss it!!! 02:59:14 Hexstream: that linkval thingy may be interesting 02:59:34 No, but seriously, I feel FORMAT is not the best solution but I didn't try to come up with an alternative and I don't think that one's an actual problem in practice. 02:59:40 Hexstream: So, why not just use recursion? 02:59:46 adeht: I hope so! ;) 03:00:15 Zhivago: I already answered that question. I feel it obscures the purpose of the code. 03:00:30 Of course I still use recursion when appropriate. To deal with trees and stuff. 03:01:04 Hexstream: The problem with intuition is that it is a learned skill. 03:01:19 Linkval has better be fucking useful cuz I'll have sacrificed about 3 weeks to the gods of time to document it when I'm done. 03:01:24 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:35 -!- drdo [~user@93.108.192.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:01:38 ha! 03:01:42 *drewc* finally makes it work 03:01:42 Though some of that time goes into learning Texinfo. 03:01:46 Hexstream: FWIW, Drew McDermott has a more lispy format replacement. 03:02:06 (that was one of the more difficult pieces of code i've ever written, and i'm glad it's finally working) 03:02:17 rpg: I think I've seen it a long time ago. But I don't really have a big beef at all with FORMAT. 03:02:20 Format could probably be replaced by simple interpolation in most cases. 03:03:08 drewc: what would that be? 03:03:18 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-115-1.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 03:03:51 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-crmqddmsjhrrzisp] has joined #lisp 03:04:09 Well, should be going to bed now. I'm emo-exhausted. Cya. 03:04:15 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 03:06:14 felideon: bloody zero and plus for my web request dispatcher monad. There were times when i would have given a body part for a type system that could have pointed out the error. 03:07:15 (then again, if i wanted haskell i knew where to look) 03:08:32 drewc: emo-driven was a good term though :) 03:09:02 kenanb: 'twas Xach's term, not mine :) 03:10:21 ah, sorry :D it was pretty up to seek and scroll 03:11:05 drewc: heh I see 03:13:46 felideon: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115977 if you want to see what i was so excited about 03:15:14 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-93-57.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:15:19 drewc: what are those dots if I may ask 03:16:10 drewc: you paste good, did you twee it? 03:16:50 felideon: simply to avoid name clashing with similar constructs in the CL package. 03:17:18 ah 03:17:42 drewc: do you have .loop too? 03:18:13 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 03:18:13 where's the emote button, i can't stop laughing 03:18:32 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 03:19:22 syntard: you speak nonsense 03:19:43 drewc: Hexstream should have seen this 03:19:52 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115977#1 <--- there's the monads behind it 03:20:00 syntard: what are you going on about exactly? 03:20:12 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21:02 drewc: doesn't matter. I had a laugh 03:21:04 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:21:37 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:22:00 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-143.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:22:11 syntard: ok, so please don't bother me just to talk to yourself ya? 03:22:22 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115977#2 <--- the dispatcher monad itself 03:22:59 (there must be a better way to implement PLUS, but that works) 03:25:02 symbole_ [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:14 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@wsip-70-166-115-251.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:25:24 Fare: interface passing style seems to work pretty well for monads, FWIW 03:26:18 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:38 CLOS, otoh, isn't the best object system for representing the interfaces. pkhuong_ 's idea of a custom dispatch mechanism makes a lot more sense to me now 03:27:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:30:39 drewc, of could it would, since that's what Haskell monads compile to 03:30:56 custom dispatch mechanism? How so? 03:31:11 prototypes would probably work well for interfaces. 03:32:43 drewc: do you want to contribute a monad sub-library to fare-utils? 03:33:14 Fare: well, i had to implement monad transformers using a slot to hold the 'inner' monad. , and that makes some things a little more difficult then it should be. I imagine a single dispatch mechanism that explicitly knows about paramterisation like 03:33:59 drewc: did you see how I use memoization for such interfaces, in fare-utils? 03:34:56 Fare: it's been a while since i looked over it actually, since before i knew what i was looking at really. I'll have another go and see what new tricks have appeared :) 03:35:14 -!- s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: XChat has encountered a problem and needs to close] 03:35:17 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:36:01 not much has appeared, I fear 03:36:11 that code is sitting there, working, but underdeveloped. 03:36:26 I was considering adding a pure version of "setf", though 03:36:53 by appeared i mean appear new to me as i now know a lot more about IPS in general 03:36:58 dunno what name to give it. updatef I presume. 03:37:26 you mean something that does (setf var (update var ...)) ? 03:37:47 (a pure setf seems like a contradiction to me :P) 03:38:16 (updatef (lookup i m k) v) ===> (updatef-expander lookup v i m k) ===> (insert i m k v) 03:38:34 ahh! 03:38:52 returns a new map m where the key k is bound to value v, according to interface i 03:39:40 (and the new m is otherwise like the old m) 03:39:59 i like it. 03:40:02 pure replacement for setf. Same generic, extensible behavior. 03:40:13 felideon` [~felideon@adsl-64-126-160.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:19 if I weren't sleepy and hungry, I'd do it now. 03:40:29 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-225-248.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:40:31 actually, it's quite independent from IPS 03:40:36 -!- felideon` is now known as felideon 03:41:27 yeah, though connected in the 'we like using interfaces with pure data structures' way 03:41:50 yup 03:41:56 are you going to write in now? 03:41:59 otherwise, I will. 03:42:04 Or we can make a competition 03:42:52 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 03:42:55 now that i have the minimum set of monads to do what i need to do, i'll be focusing on _real_ work for a while :) 03:43:33 *drewc* could have gotten 95% of the way there with special variables and conditions, but is glad he made the effort to do it monadically 03:43:51 I'm looking forward to IPS monadic transformers with continuation and dynamic environment monads, etc. 03:44:21 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115977#1 <--- contT and stateT are there 03:44:39 also, generic ways of combining monads => can have methods that do better than black box functional composition. 03:45:01 for dynamic environment, I mean special variables. 03:45:11 like "continuation marks" in Racket 03:45:15 (or Chez) 03:45:28 or R7RS, I presume 03:45:30 yeah, actually getting into a CL idea of monads rather than parroting haskell is exciting. 03:45:39 :) 03:46:07 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:46:39 what is a 'continuation mark' 03:47:20 hum. I can't have (updatef foo) be a function, unhappily -- the function space is not extensible. 03:47:32 Should I be using symbol properties? A hash-table? 03:48:05 drewc: what allows you to implement special variables in presence of indefinite extent continuations 03:48:18 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@202-173-169-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:48:32 you can't just pop and push according to a linear stack. 03:48:34 Fare: well, i use dynamic-wind for that without issues... same idea? 03:48:54 (dynamic-wind in CL ala pcos) 03:49:09 yeah, seems to be a similar idea 03:49:16 OR, you must walk the tree up and down from the current continuation to the one you activate through their common ancestor to walk the binding modifications (which is expensive). 03:49:37 Is that what dynamic-wind does? It's expensive. 03:49:54 dynamic-wind simply captures the forms that do the binding, really 03:50:04 Another way is to store the dynamic environment as a second argument passed around together with the continuation function. 03:50:52 when a continuation escapes, the pair (k,e) is passed around, and when it is invoked, e is restored as well as k. 03:51:00 essentially storing a closures like (lambda (k) (dlet ((foo 'bar)) (funcall k))) 03:51:33 longkid [~longkid@58.186.226.162] has joined #lisp 03:51:47 e can be any pure mapping from e.g. symbols to storage cells for mutable special variables 03:51:53 hello 03:51:57 Good morning everyone! 03:52:02 and hello longkid 03:52:03 longkid: cha`u em 03:52:16 beach: cha`u anh 03:52:16 Fare: xin chao! 03:52:21 chao 03:52:23 grrr 03:52:27 Fare: yeah, that's essentially how i do it 03:52:30 can never spell it right 03:52:35 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-115-1.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:52:38 (that is, the pass the k and the e) 03:52:54 Fare: Em kho không? 03:53:21 Fare: though, recently i've found i much prefer using the state monad over most uses of specials :P 03:53:22 I can't spell manh 03:53:26 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.219.6] has joined #lisp 03:53:49 a state monad is like a single special or so. 03:54:09 beach: You practice Vietnamese everyday. 03:54:10 when you store a map as the state, its a dynamic environment 03:54:24 (a special or a global? Well, it's special if you can switch which state monad you're using) 03:54:29 (I usually use an alist) 03:54:55 I'm reading a binary file. Which function can I use to know the length of binary stream? 03:55:01 drewc: use a pure: :) 03:55:05 if you make the state an alist, say, then your dynamic binding is just ACONS 03:55:13 i like alists! :) 03:55:31 (actually, i just punted on that and would probably prefer a better structure) 03:55:32 alists are nice until you reach 8-16 elements. 03:55:45 then they are a PITA 03:55:57 pure: is your friend :) 03:55:59 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-115-1.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 03:56:02 yeah, but specials are only nice until you reach 2 or 3, so it's a win :) 03:56:09 but yeah, i know 03:56:17 ok, you win. 03:56:32 alright, ok, you win (I'm in love with you) 03:56:32 Fare: pure? persistent is enough ;) 03:56:33 longkid: file-length should do the trick. 03:56:38 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-93-57.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:56:43 -!- az [~az@p4FE4EC78.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:56:49 felideon` [~felideon@adsl-64-194-28.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:52 gigamonkey: OK, I try it. 03:57:00 pkhuong_, which impure persistent datastructure are you suggesting? 03:57:09 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-126-160.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:57:13 -!- felideon` is now known as felideon 03:57:41 a data structure with reverse trailing, like baker's solution to the persistent array problem in his shallow binding paper. 03:57:41 pkhuong_: i have a persistent-persistent data structure you'd enjoy persistent in both senses, in memory and on disk :P 03:58:01 *drewc* missed some punctuation after 'enjoy' 03:58:15 (most persistent datastructures I know are pure, or built on top of simple pure abstractions that hide impure implementation details) 03:59:07 longkid: Is this the PGM file? The size is indicated in the header; both the width and the height. 03:59:16 is there a 'functional programming in CL' mailing list where we could discuss these types of things in more detail? if not, would any of you be interested in subscribing to such a list? 03:59:29 while trailing offers a generic way to build a persistent data structure from an arbitrary base implementations, as long as each operation is reversible. 03:59:35 with the common theme being impurity as optimization for linear update 03:59:58 drewc: subscribe me! 04:00:02 beach: Yes, I'm trying to read a PGM file. But I don't know the size. 04:00:12 Yes you do. It's in the header. 04:00:28 Fare: if nobody knows of such a list, i will most certainly start one :) 04:00:45 Fare: you could put it that way... or as adding persistence to pre-existing side-effectful data structures (: 04:00:58 beach: I can use read-byte to read the header. Right? And the format is the same as the website mentioned? 04:01:11 longkid: Yes. 04:01:20 longkid: What made you think that the size was not in the header? 04:01:27 pkhuong_: i tried to do just that once... turns out it was a lot harder then just copying things before i modified them :) 04:01:53 rather, that's how i attempted to do it, before realizing it's not that simple. 04:02:38 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:03:28 beach: I don't think that the size was not in the header because this file is stored in a special format. 04:03:45 _danb_` [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:03:55 oh, and other themes being impurity as pure graph reduction (especially for lazy evaluation), or graph representation optimization (GC) -- both I suppose being cases of a linear global graph with pure semantics. 04:04:11 longkid: sbcl only, or portable? 04:04:24 drewc: (: 04:04:38 longkid: The PGM format says the size is indicated as two numbers. You need to read those number, then allocate the array of that size, and then finally read the contents. 04:04:52 Fare: I don't see what you mean. :-D 04:05:01 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:05:20 longkid: It will be a nested loop with the outermost looping over rows in the array, and the inner one over columns. 04:05:21 beach: OK. I know what to do now. Thanks. 04:05:37 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.219.6] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:07:09 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:29 lol @ the LOL video on youtube 04:09:02 beach: I've already checked the magic number. That's P5. 04:09:17 longkid: Sounds good! 04:10:38 beach: I'll read this file and store in an array. And the remaining work is of redsort7 & ... 04:10:47 so should define-updatef-expander store its stuff in a property or a hash-table? 04:11:10 longkid: redsord7 & rukowen 04:11:16 property is portably weak-linked. Hash-table, I'd have to use some weak hash-table library. 04:11:30 *Fare* opts for property. 04:11:31 beach: Yes 04:11:42 longkid: Please show me your code when you are done. 04:12:06 beach: OK. I write it now. 04:12:24 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@208.86.11.55] has left #lisp 04:12:25 rukowen: How is it going? 04:13:01 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 04:13:04 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.235.211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13:48 modally desperate 04:14:08 modally? 04:14:38 with which modal quantifier? "for all futures" or "for some future" ? 04:14:42 beach: I got stuck on showing the matrix 04:15:34 beach: it is a small problem, but it makes me uncomfortable 04:15:50 rukowen: What's the problem? That the matrix is too big? 04:17:02 -!- coyo [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:17:16 no that nano is too small 04:17:19 lol 04:17:34 beach: no, about TAB Space. you know, the length of "0" is different from the length of "15" 04:17:37 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-194-28.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:18:07 rukowen: Use FORMAT with a parameter to ~d. 04:18:37 pkhuong_: much more interesting than Land of Lisp, but needs more comics! 04:19:10 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:46 Fare: you mean the symbol-plist? I'm always trying to find a good excuse for using it, so i say go for it! 04:20:09 beach: opps, no space bween them 04:20:29 beach: (format t "~d " (aref *db* i j)) 04:20:53 rukowen: You need to use format on each element 04:21:18 i tried "~t" but ... :( 04:21:43 (loop for i in '(0 10 100 2 1 0) do (format t "~4d" i)) 04:22:17 rukowen: Do you see the ~4d? That's what I meant by a parameter to ~d. It gives the width of the field to use for printing the element. 04:22:27 AHHH 04:22:34 beach: i got it 04:23:02 rukowen: hello 04:23:30 beach: thanks, ~d and ~4d :) 04:23:36 rukowen: How do you feel about AA course? Interested? 04:23:47 longkid: hi Longkid 04:23:59 longkid: Alcoholics Anonymous? 04:24:24 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:28 longkid: i'm not sure. I just fell asleep when i do AA 04:25:10 beach: AA: Advanced Algorithm. 04:25:17 Ah! 04:25:25 az [~az@p4FE4EB0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:57 I get to go now. Goodbye. 04:26:12 gbye 04:27:21 beach: time to lunch. I'll be back. Enjoy your meal :) 04:27:25 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:47 rukowen: I don't eat at 6:30 in the morning, but thanks anyway. Have a nice lunch. 04:28:44 *beach* enjoys a cà phê en nóng instead. 04:30:41 -!- longkid [~longkid@58.186.226.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:32:19 hi, stupid question: how do I silence "Implicitly creating new generic function SOME-METHOD."? 04:32:40 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 04:32:59 egn: DEFGENERIC 04:33:09 drewc: thanks 04:33:44 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:36:04 *drewc* is actually surprised SBCL doesn't style-warn :accessor, :reader and :writer, now that he thinks about it :P 04:38:18 hm, yeah... 04:39:01 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:39:23 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-115-1.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:40:41 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.53.61] has joined #lisp 04:40:51 is there any CL for J2ME? 04:44:43 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/331118/a-j2me-lisp 04:44:52 Fare: ooh... i like how you did that memoized parameterized constructor thing 04:45:07 Fare: that's brilliant! :) 04:45:50 tcleval: That's not for CL though, just someone's lisp. 04:46:26 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:48:08 yeah, I wonder if ABCL can be compiled with j2me? 04:53:03 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:59:34 lclark [~user@ip70-181-163-100.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:38 I am wrong, or is CLHS 3.4.4 http://l1sp.org/cl/3.4.4 wrongly having reqvars::= var* instead of reqvars::= pattern* and similarly in many places where a destructuring pattern may be accepted instead of a var? 05:04:59 if so, should I update http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications ? 05:07:13 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:10:51 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-209.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 05:16:10 -!- syntard [cc335cfb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.51.92.251] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:19:01 Fare: i think you must be correct. 05:19:37 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-hysvliydtneyjcnh] has joined #lisp 05:19:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-hysvliydtneyjcnh] has quit [Changing host] 05:19:37 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:20:55 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-209.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:21:33 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 05:22:06 it seems odd that the syntax for pattern is defined, but not used for reqvars 05:22:29 *drewc* is too tired to play the hyperspec game tonight 05:22:35 let me know how it turns out :) 05:25:32 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:26:48 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:31:40 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:36:48 -!- d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:37:12 Demosthenes [~demo@207.30.216.197] has joined #lisp 05:37:57 d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has joined #lisp 05:39:14 -!- d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has left #lisp 05:42:35 -!- az [~az@p4FE4EB0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:46:59 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@202-173-169-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:49:24 what was cl-stl good for ? 05:49:26 KimoOta [~tom@71-94-160-81.dhcp.knwc.wa.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:50:39 az [~az@p5796C76A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:22 d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has joined #lisp 05:51:52 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:52:15 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 05:52:29 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:52:34 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 05:54:27 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@124-171-224-55.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:55:16 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 05:58:15 -!- _danb_` [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:58:50 -!- d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:02:28 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 06:04:12 d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has joined #lisp 06:10:58 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:11:54 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:13:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 06:13:56 dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:04 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@207.30.216.197] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:16:45 ignas [~ignas@88-222-145-120.meganet.lt] has joined #lisp 06:16:59 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:22:16 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 06:22:16 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has 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07:04:04 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 07:04:53 good morning 07:05:16 mornin 07:05:30 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:05:56 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082BA0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:41 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:07:13 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:09:16 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:09:38 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B326370.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:10:06 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:11:11 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 07:11:25 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:15:27 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.82.56] has joined #lisp 07:15:49 KimoOta [~tom@71-94-160-81.dhcp.knwc.wa.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:04 -!- sid3k [~user@li140-93.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:17:04 sid3k [~user@li140-93.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:17 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:20:39 -!- symbole_ [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:22:58 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:23:09 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:23:38 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:28 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:25:24 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 07:26:08 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-185-182.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:26:26 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-185-182.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:28:11 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-140-250.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:28:17 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:28:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:29:03 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-140-250.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:30:45 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:30:46 longkid [~longkid@58.186.226.162] has joined #lisp 07:31:08 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:31:10 hello all 07:31:31 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:31:59 longkid: Hi 07:32:05 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:32:44 longkid: hehe 07:33:16 rukowen: Hi 07:33:45 longkid: dang ngoi nghe chi Hoa doa dam na 07:34:07 rukowen: About what? 07:34:12 Uy, các bác là ngi Vit à? 07:34:40 cmpitg: Yes, and you? 07:34:49 longkid: Me, too 07:35:06 longkid: I'm pretty surprised to find any Vietnamese Lisper 07:35:24 rTypo [~rTypo@pc54.clicknet.iasi.rdsnet.ro] has joined #lisp 07:36:07 longkid: about Semaster, grading ... 07:36:41 cmpitg: I'm a newbie. 07:36:48 cmpitg: there are so many Vietnamese here 07:37:13 rukowen: Really? Do you guys have a Lisp User Group or something? 07:37:13 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:36 rukowen: I have been trying to find connection with Vietnamese Lispers for a long time 07:37:59 cmpitg: I'm a newbie on LISP 07:38:11 hope you're not 07:38:43 rukowen: Well, actually I'm not :-) 07:39:07 rukowen: first lesson: it hasn't been in all caps since the 80s or so! 07:39:11 cmpitg: hope you are not a newbie 07:39:27 rukowen: No, I'm not 07:39:45 rukowen: I'm neither an expert nor newbie 07:39:57 rukowen: I just love Common Lisp 07:40:25 cmpitg: so... could I ask you some question on LISP, if I get stuck on something? 07:41:03 rukowen: Yeah, sure 07:41:58 >.< 07:43:15 What's wrong Ralith? 07:43:24 don't mind me 07:43:32 *Ralith* goes to poke at his apple crisp 07:45:42 rukowen: Type Lisp, not LISP. 07:46:53 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:47:15 longkid: I've read on some site, it shows "LisP" 07:47:48 -!- stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:47:52 rukowen: beach told me that 07:48:00 :) 07:48:09 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 07:48:19 longkid: OK las:-D 07:48:24 longkid: = List Processing 07:48:53 minion: tell rukowen about LisP book 07:48:54 -!- stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:48:54 rukowen: i like lisp... i'm written in it 07:49:01 minion: tell rukowen about LisP-book 07:49:01 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``LisP-book''. 07:49:04 whatever 07:49:06 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 07:49:24 a ha.. 07:49:36 oh, my bad, i was thinking about LiSP 07:49:44 which is "Lisp in Small Pieces" 07:49:52 which is the title of a book 07:50:17 Ok ok .. Lisp 07:50:44 splittist [~John@251-173.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:50:46 morning 07:50:53 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 07:51:18 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:51:38 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 07:51:41 Lisp! 07:51:50 rukowen: and Lisp = CL = Common Lisp in this channel 07:51:57 -!- bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:51:58 (unless otherwise specified) 07:52:12 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:52:38 jdz: yes, i see 07:54:35 _danb_ [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:55:49 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 08:02:25 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:06:52 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:57 -!- longkid [~longkid@58.186.226.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:11:31 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:11:41 *Fare* considers hiring some VN lispers 08:12:05 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:12:30 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:01 It's a new international lisp powerhouse! 08:15:26 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 08:15:36 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-93-57.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:15:57 (and don't forget NZ, to fill that timezone gap) 08:16:03 dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:45 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:09 -!- Intensity [1BrVWiuQZ2@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:17:48 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:50 VN? 08:18:07 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:36 ehu: http://www.iso.org/iso/country_codes/iso_3166_code_lists/english_country_names_and_code_elements.htm#v.. 08:19:55 (i.e. Viet Nam) 08:20:16 ah. 08:20:19 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:20:23 upcoming economy? 08:20:46 Intensity [Pk4hBtlapD@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 08:20:50 (or perhaps Fare was thinking in French: http://www.iso.org/iso/country_codes/iso_3166_code_lists/french_country_names_and_code_elements.htm - which is the same thing) 08:21:08 hmm. I should keep some of those links. 08:21:22 I always have trouble finding iso tables. 08:21:32 thanks! 08:21:43 ehu: a pleasure (: 08:22:41 ehu: also in TXT semicolon delimited and XML 08:24:38 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:26:06 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 08:31:23 goodbye everyone 08:31:29 have a nice day! 08:32:14 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:55 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.91] has joined #lisp 08:33:00 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:33:54 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:38 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-93-57.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:40:15 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.9] has left #lisp 08:44:50 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 08:55:59 lclark` [~user@ip70-181-163-100.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:58 -!- lclark [~user@ip70-181-163-100.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:00:32 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 09:01:48 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:01:54 tfb [~tfb@92.40.187.144.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:03:23 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu197.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:03:47 tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:13 Yuuhi [benni@p54839AC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:34 -!- KimoOta [~tom@71-94-160-81.dhcp.knwc.wa.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:11:38 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 09:13:34 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.82.56] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:13:56 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.82.56] has joined #lisp 09:14:15 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 09:14:34 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:14:34 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 09:14:34 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:14:36 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:15:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:16:28 Has anyone implemented Kernel yet? 09:17:06 drdo: in CL? 09:17:28 In any language 09:18:16 i have not noticed any Kernel developers or discussions about implementing it here 09:18:42 i'm only here about 30% of the time, though 09:18:53 You know i'm talking about the Kernel programming language right? 09:19:03 yes 09:19:15 drdo: ask sykopomp 09:19:18 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:19:37 I was just wondering if anyone had any working implementation so i could play around with it :) 09:19:40 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:11 doesn't it have a homepage or other presence on the interwebs? 09:20:28 It does, but all i could find was the specification 09:20:40 probably people in LTU are up to date with its progress :) 09:20:45 http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html 09:21:21 it works in theory, should be a piece of cake to implement it in practice! 09:21:49 Yes it feels like it wouldn't be hard to implement 09:22:33 oh, i noticed the $vau thing here this morning... 09:23:34 somebody was asking about minimum set of primitives for implementing CL 09:23:38 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.82.56] has left #lisp 09:25:18 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.82.56] has joined #lisp 09:27:27 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:28 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu197.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:27:50 jdz: Baker has some papers on that. 09:27:54 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.82.56] has quit [Client Quit] 09:28:24 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:28:46 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.82.56] has joined #lisp 09:30:57 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.82.56] has left #lisp 09:36:07 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:41:17 Fare: hi :) 09:46:37 -!- Intensity [Pk4hBtlapD@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Quit: Intensity] 09:47:19 xxxxxx [~xxxxx@125.234.144.244] has joined #lisp 09:50:12 Intensity [2nGOhrNbVB@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 09:51:05 -!- bulters [~jeroen@vps659.directvps.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:51:24 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.187.144.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:52:03 tfb [~tfb@92.40.187.144.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:52:04 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 09:52:10 Genosh [~Genosh@56.Red-88-11-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:48 Joreji [~thomas@64-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:59:44 msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has joined #lisp 10:02:40 urandom__ [~user@p548A6512.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:15 carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.155] has joined #lisp 10:15:56 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:20:17 -!- xxxxxx [~xxxxx@125.234.144.244] has left #lisp 10:21:26 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@119.192.12.119] has joined #lisp 10:25:47 -!- hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 10:32:13 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:33:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:34:21 Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:37:58 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@56.Red-88-11-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:47:00 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:48:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:50:05 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:52:29 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:53:44 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.187.144.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:53:59 what does the acronym NST (the unit testing system) stand for? 10:55:37 New System Testing 10:55:41 perhaps. 10:55:48 No Such Test 10:56:04 Not Sufficiently Tested 10:56:06 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:56:21 Who tests the tester? 10:56:30 pjb: ah :D 10:56:32 The watchers. 10:57:20 ok, so, nst just stands for nst then 10:58:01 I have no idea, in fact. 11:01:31 -!- Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:01:42 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:02:36 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 11:03:10 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:04:18 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 11:06:02 Joreji [~thomas@64-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:09:45 colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-1-241.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:13:29 tfb [~tfb@92.40.187.144.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:14:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:15:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:20:53 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:25:20 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:28:53 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 11:29:41 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:30:32 hello 11:31:10 hi kiuma 11:31:54 hi fe[nl]ix 11:32:48 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 11:33:22 hohum [~dcorbe@8.17.5.13] has joined #lisp 11:34:18 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:34:30 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 11:35:00 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:37:17 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-13-192.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:43:14 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:35 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-162.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:50:03 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:53:16 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:52 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012104758]] 11:57:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:58:33 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.204] has joined #lisp 11:59:20 -!- ASau [~user@77.246.230.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:59:43 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:02:15 btbngr [~btbgnr@212.183.140.21] has joined #lisp 12:05:11 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 12:07:41 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:09:51 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-143.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:36 randa [~lordnikon@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:11:09 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.187.144.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:17:38 LiamH [~healy@129-2-140-229.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:18:49 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:21 chaslemley [~chaslemle@208.44.170.2] has joined #lisp 12:21:39 ASau [~user@77.246.230.250] has joined #lisp 12:23:06 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:38 tfb [~tfb@92.40.187.144.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:25:17 jimmy_sjtu [~jimmy@2001:da8:8000:e192:225:b3ff:fe76:3140] has joined #lisp 12:26:22 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:27:40 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@119.192.12.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:21 -!- colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-1-241.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:30:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.198] has joined #lisp 12:32:13 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:39:23 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:04 Are you ready for this morning's 5 minute hacking challenge?! 12:46:00 Write a function named TAIL-FILE that takes a pathname and an integer N and displays the last N lines of the file. If there are fewer lines in the file than N, shows all lines. 12:46:19 Points will be awarded for brevity, clarity, purity, and elegance. 12:46:33 On my mark...go! 12:47:59 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:32 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:50:02 and then... silence :p 12:50:11 (defun tail-file (file n) (let ((lines (com.informatimago.common-lisp.file:string-list-text-file-contents file))) (map 'nil 'write-line (subseq line (max 0 (- (length line) n)))))) 12:50:48 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:51:07 5 minutes already passed? 12:51:11 oh, they did 12:51:15 i read the message too late 12:51:15 Loses points for not handling large files. 12:51:16 jdz: No, it should take only 5 minutes to write. 12:51:19 i'm busy coding 12:51:28 jdz: the deadline is November 14th 12:52:35 or more exactly: (defun tail-file (file n) (let ((lines (com.informatimago.common-lisp.file:string-list-text-file-contents file))) (map 'nil (function write-line) (subseq lines (max 0 (- (length lines) n)))))) 12:53:09 Zhivago: what's a large file? I've got 24GB of RAM, and not a lot of files bigger than that... 12:53:21 Oh, nonsense. 12:53:44 I have half a dozen multi-terabyte files kicking around the place. 12:53:50 And points are awarded by brevity, not on working on big files. 12:54:31 makks [~makks@p5DE8E8B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:40 heyho 12:54:45 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 12:54:46 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-crmqddmsjhrrzisp] has left #lisp 12:55:10 my package defines a structure, what does it have to export? 12:55:11 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:55:28 makks: what it wants to let other packages access to easily. 12:55:29 only the accessors? 12:55:40 What will the other packages use? 12:55:50 the raw structures 12:56:07 Will they need to copy that structure? 12:56:12 no 12:56:13 then COPY-. 12:56:16 then not. 12:56:16 just read it 12:56:29 Will then need to make new instances of that structures? 12:56:29 ok but I dont have to export structure-name 12:56:44 ok I get it 12:56:45 Only what is used. 12:57:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115988 12:57:25 Notice that in any case, the symbols can always be read, whatever the current setting of cl:*package*, by using original-package::symbol. 12:57:39 other question, what's the difference of: (make-hash-table :test 'equal) and (make-hash-table :test #'equal) ? 12:57:43 Genosh [~Genosh@56.Red-88-11-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:47 None. 12:58:40 whats the # for then? 12:58:47 The difference between (quote fun) and (function fun), occurs only for function names not in the CL package, and only when you define local lexical functions with FLET or LABELS. 12:59:03 (which you must not do for CL functions, that's why it doesn't happen for CL functions). 12:59:15 #'x is read as (CL:FUNCTION X) 12:59:24 'x is read as (CL:QUOTE X) 13:00:30 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dfjjwptreiclxqxw] has joined #lisp 13:00:35 (defun example () 1) (flet ((example () 2)) (mapcar (function funcall) (list (function example) (quote example)))) --> (2 1) 13:00:39 what is #P"foo" read as? (pathname "foo")? 13:00:44 Yes. 13:00:47 funky 13:01:28 And "foo" is read as the result of (make-array 3 :element-type 'character :initial-contents (list #\f #\o #\o)) or something like that. 13:01:52 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:02:05 makks: see CLHS 2.4 Standard Macro Characters 13:02:27 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu197.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:02:28 Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:03:29 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:03:31 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dfjjwptreiclxqxw] has left #lisp 13:08:24 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:08:28 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.3.206] has joined #lisp 13:08:55 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:10:27 makks: about structure exportation, i advise you to always export the symbol that names the structure, to allow using it with typep and what not 13:11:05 so if I have a structure member also export :member? 13:11:30 keyword don't need to be exported, because we use the :member syntax to read them. 13:12:02 keywords are exported automatically 13:12:07 If you wanted to be able to use your-package:member or (after having used your-package or imported member from it) member, then yes. 13:12:23 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.223.129.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:23 stassats: they're exported from the package KEYWORD, yes. They could be re-exported from another package. 13:12:24 makks: are you doing this?: (defstruct :meber ...) 13:12:29 It would not be a good idea though. 13:12:40 (make-record :member 'toto) 13:13:09 makks: the point of keywords is precisely not to have to export or import them to be able to write (make-record :member 'toto). 13:13:36 makks: just ignore my last line... 13:13:47 -!- Guest21325 is now known as xristos 13:14:12 *pjb* assumes and pray makks is not doing (defstruct :member ...) 13:14:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:14:22 no 13:14:30 Good! :-) 13:14:33 Im doing (defstruct member ...) 13:14:56 but I dont (:export :member) 13:15:12 makks: this doesn't export a keyword. 13:15:19 The keyword here is used as a string designator. 13:15:25 I know 13:15:31 What's exported, is the symbol named "MEMBER" that is interned in that package. 13:15:40 ok. 13:15:46 yeah, but should I do that? 13:16:12 makks: it all depends on the expected usage given to your package. 13:16:35 As mentionned by pmd, it's convenient to export the name of the structure, so that you can test the type of objects easily. 13:16:39 metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has joined #lisp 13:16:59 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:16:59 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.98.198] has joined #lisp 13:17:19 If you don't know in advance what use is given to your structure, or if you don't want to restrict it, then export all the symbols defined by defstruct, including copy-member, etc. 13:17:32 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:17:48 alright 13:18:03 with structures you have a predicate function, so you don't have to use typep for easy testing 13:18:32 If would tell people how much I thought about a simple html directory lister they would laugh for sure... 13:18:38 +I 13:18:53 and if you're using slime and sbcl, you can use M-x slime-export-class to export accessors, predicates, structure name, etc. 13:19:04 it will add them to your defpackage form 13:19:35 sweet, but I am pretty sick of code generators right now since my work forces me to use eclipse... 13:20:01 Xach: where do i submit my hack? 13:20:04 that's not a code generator, that's code manipulator 13:20:10 stassats: (typep x (or member head body)) ? 13:20:15 stassats: (typep x '(or member head body)) ? 13:20:41 pjb: that's not "easy testing' 13:20:55 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.187.144.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:20:58 :-) 13:21:59 #lisp is so hard, you have to write 10 pages of disclaimers for every sentence 13:22:14 jdz: paste.lisp.org 13:22:24 Even if it's a oneliner? 13:22:30 tfb [~tfb@92.40.187.144.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:22:40 It depends on how carefully you write the sentence. 13:23:18 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:23:41 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115990 13:25:31 stassats: what if you want to specialize methods on instances of the structure? 13:26:07 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-140-229.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:26:18 pmd: that's included in my non-published disclaimer 13:27:01 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.253.172] has joined #lisp 13:27:50 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-174.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 13:29:00 sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5a55:caff:fef2:a811] has joined #lisp 13:30:37 out of curiosity, when the spec says a function is a `function', can it be a `generic function'? like, (defmethod mapcar ((f symbol) list &rest lists) (apply 'mapcar (coerce f 'function) list lists)) and (defmethod mapcar ((f function) ...) ...) 13:31:03 yes 13:31:08 kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.52] has joined #lisp 13:31:09 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.52] has quit [Changing host] 13:31:09 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:31:25 implementations are permitted to do that; conforming code is not permitted to depend on it 13:31:35 right 13:31:56 tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:c1d:2a1a:9c78:1ecb] has joined #lisp 13:33:07 i was wondering why the spec defines many functions that receive designators instead of actual methods, and why somethings say it works like coerce and others say it works different 13:33:19 (ok, i know the answer to the first) 13:34:56 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-224-55.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:58 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:36:23 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:36:37 Xach: already did 10 waaay back (http://paste.lisp.org/display/115988) 13:36:46 s/10/ 13:37:44 that's not interesting, it reads the whole file 13:37:46 (i) designators are a useful concept to have, regardless of generic functions (ii) CLOS came rather late in the standardization process so much of the rest of CL does not depend on it 13:37:50 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:37:56 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-126-87.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:38:16 stassats: not reading the whole file falls out of my understanding of 5 minute challenge 13:40:33 tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:42:45 jdz: with your solution as base, how about http://paste.lisp.org/+2HHW/1? 13:43:30 jdz: re stassats I think he meant to do a seek() near the end of file and try to find enough lines there - if not, go a bit back and accumulate again 13:43:43 flip214: i know 13:43:46 stassats: not feasible in all encodings. 13:45:34 flip214: have you tested it? 13:45:39 No ... 13:45:54 I know, the list returned would include null car's. 13:46:11 no, you set (cdr lines) to nil just before looping over it 13:46:19 so you can't get more than one line 13:46:56 Sorry - I forgot to save the old value, and start iterating from there 13:47:14 That was in my brain, just didn't get dumped into paste 13:47:44 flip214: the idea is correct, yes 13:48:14 jdz: maybe fixed in http://paste.lisp.org/+2HHW/2 13:48:26 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:48:39 sorry, the comment is still wrong 13:49:19 oh, and there is really no need for iterate 13:49:27 at first i thought i'd need it 13:49:29 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115988#3 testing is left to the reader 13:49:43 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.253.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:50:22 and now i'm late, damn your challenges 13:50:25 britb [~redline65@64.238.98.14] has joined #lisp 13:50:34 You're welcome ;-) 13:50:41 stassats: somebody should test the solutions 13:50:46 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:13 stassats: that's not nice ... I fear that there's a syscall for every byte that's looked at 13:51:17 my guess is that for your solution to be faster the file should be of some significant size.. 13:51:27 and the file is being read backwards 13:52:38 tail does it this way - seeking just before the end, looking and counting 13:53:06 my idea was to skip backwards by some amount, and then try to go forward, but that might interact in quite surprising ways with some text encodings (not worse than crawling backwards by a byte, though) 13:53:51 But it should work fine with utf8 - and ucs16 and similar have worse problems than a non-working tail-file, IMO 13:54:10 and there are some systems where end-of-line is two bytes... 13:54:26 screw them 13:55:08 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:56:38 is it the case that no byte-sequence of utf-8 encoded character can contain the #x0a byte? 13:56:53 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:57:09 jdz: utf-8 is self synchronizing; assuming the file is correctly encoded, you always know when a codepoint begins. 13:57:35 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:57:43 jdz: Newline can 13:59:04 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:43 -!- ignas [~ignas@88-222-145-120.meganet.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:59:49 pkhuong_: that's cool. then the best approach i can come up with is skipping backwards from the end of the file (by some delta, which could be dynamically adjusted) looking for the newline bytes, putting the file positions into a buffer 14:00:38 positions from the starting position that are within the range of utf-8-encoded character byte sequence should not be counted 14:01:13 writing code probably would be easier and more precise than trying to describe the thing 14:02:02 you can just look for the right byte, actually; another nice property of utf-8: no encoded codepoint is a subsequence of another correctly encoded codepoint. 14:02:30 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.32.133] has joined #lisp 14:02:38 ok, that makes things a bit simpler, then 14:05:02 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:07:39 p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:07:51 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:08:10 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-172-183.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:09:44 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:21 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:16:59 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:11 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:50 Can format handle sizes? Like 2048 -> 2KB? 14:25:37 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:26:15 makks: that is not part of format. 14:26:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:26:26 makks: you could write a function and have format call it with ~/, though. 14:27:12 I dont need it in format, I just wanted to check if I reinvent the wheel 14:27:13 what was the suggested format directive that did not get into the standard for this? 14:27:20 U 14:28:31 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:28:43 http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/lost-u-directive/ 14:29:59 dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:59 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:30:42 -!- p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:33:12 p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:33:26 -!- d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:35:16 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:24 -!- randa [~lordnikon@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:40:08 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.32.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:40:38 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 14:42:06 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-172-183.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:42:32 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.40.192] has joined #lisp 14:42:35 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-169-4-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:42:44 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:43:16 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-189-5.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:45:50 colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-1-241.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:46:02 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 14:46:56 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-208-244.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 14:48:52 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:49:05 Is any parenscript user here using parenscript 2.2? 14:49:08 Does it break all your stuff? 14:49:28 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:49:41 Is that a new version? I've used the parenscript version that's in quicklisp with success 14:49:47 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:50:50 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-126-87.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:51:20 That is 2.1 14:51:47 I've heard one complaint from someone saying "Don't upgrade". I'd like to hear more feedback, positive or negative. 14:51:51 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:52:03 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-126-87.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:53:08 randa [~lordnikon@11.49.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:53:16 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.73.141] has joined #lisp 14:53:27 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 14:54:18 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:54:21 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:55:57 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-172-161.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:18 i know that unknown_lamer forked parenscript in a 'parenscript-classic' repo because the semantics changed radically when vsedach moved to v2 14:56:19 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 14:56:40 I just started useing parenscript, though, and I"m using quicklisps version. 14:57:02 s/sei/se 14:57:12 something. 14:57:21 every once in a while I seem to stroke out a bit. 14:57:23 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2AE4.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:57:32 Fade: your single quotes got together into " 14:57:58 yeah. I just woke up. I haven't finished with the morning Post. 14:58:12 single quote, i believe that's called apostrophe 14:59:01 Fade: the Washington Post? 14:59:15 think bootstrapping. 14:59:33 you don't read a magazine when you bootstrap? 14:59:46 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:53 i apparently can't move my fingers accurately when I bootstrap. 15:00:03 problem exists betwen chair and keyboard. 15:01:35 -!- Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:03:19 Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:03:49 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 15:05:07 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-174.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:07:44 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-208-244.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:08:28 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.40.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:12:13 -!- britb [~redline65@64.238.98.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12:22 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-222-170.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:12:30 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:13:58 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:58 rukowen [~thehien@222.253.106.10] has joined #lisp 15:15:54 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-174.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 15:16:41 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-174.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:16:45 PCChris_ [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-174.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 15:17:11 Xach: I switched from an old version of Parenscript to the latest repository version with just a few code changes. 15:17:16 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17:33 reb: thanks for the feedback 15:17:50 Not sure what version I'm using now .... 15:19:11 Eloquent Parenscript anyone? 15:19:15 2.2 seems to be an official numbered release. 15:19:17 the latest. 15:19:39 Changes were: ps-inline* ==> js-inline*, js ==> ps, etc. 15:19:43 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:20:59 My latest version of parenscript comes from the git repository on common-lisp.net. 15:21:13 I'm not sure what version that is. 15:21:41 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.40.195] has joined #lisp 15:22:20 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:22:44 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:49 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:15 2.1 at least still has ps<->js aliases 15:23:19 -!- Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:23:35 Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@85.22.93.138] has joined #lisp 15:24:17 Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:28:39 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:01 Good evening everyone! 15:29:31 rukowen: Did you see that? If you learn Lisp, then Fare might hire you! :) 15:30:24 Really? How did google acquisition impact hiring at ITA? 15:30:43 non-acquisition you mean? 15:30:49 It was canceled? 15:30:52 It didn't happen? 15:31:03 hasn't happened yet. 15:31:21 Well, objections are being raised by other players in the industry (Beware The Scary Google) 15:31:29 -!- randa [~lordnikon@11.49.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:31:32 acquisitions afaik take long time 15:31:52 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:32:01 Merges, yes. Acquisitions could be faster. 15:32:31 if i understand correctly, with SWIG one has to write an "interface file", ie, foo.i and then use that with swig to generate ffi-wrappers. is this correct, and if so, there is no way to use swig on C header files directly? 15:32:34 Don't forget how regulated the land of the free is 15:33:46 In Europe we also have our share of regulations. Much more than with Louis actually. The revolutionaires lied to us! 15:33:52 I want my King back! 15:34:27 pjb: is that what the demonstrations are about? 15:34:47 If they were lucid, that's what it would be about. 15:36:22 hypno: not exactly directly, but you can "include" the header file in SWIG .i 15:37:04 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 15:37:05 pjb: I hear brioche is pretty tasty. 15:37:30 Yes, it's good. 15:37:37 perhaps you should have some. 15:37:42 :-) 15:37:44 :D 15:38:28 -!- tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:c1d:2a1a:9c78:1ecb] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:38:28 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.40.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:40:05 p_l|home: hmm, ok thanks. i'll investigate that. 15:40:38 ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-201-217.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:41:08 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:05 hypno: SWIG is a very nice tool, though don't use it for variadic functions - CFFI supports them, but SWIG doesn't 15:42:21 -!- lclark` [~user@ip70-181-163-100.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:07 http://www.tnooz.com/2010/10/26/news/google-ita-software-deal-kayak-expedia-say-google-has-incentive-to-degrade-ita-product/ ; so they may require a rewrite in C++ after all? 15:43:28 pjb: doubtful 15:43:50 That would be an easy, if indirect, way to degrade ITA product... 15:43:51 I wonder how many ITA people would actually stick around if they had to rewrite it. 15:44:16 Zero? 15:44:48 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:45:19 p_l|home: variadic functions? 15:45:27 i think that'd depend on the stock options and other remuneration. 15:45:51 hypno: functions with variable amount of arguments 15:46:05 C's equivalent of &rest 15:46:28 p_l|home: When things are countable, we usually use "number" rather than "amount". 15:46:35 p_l|home: ah, ok. 15:47:11 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.30.94] has joined #lisp 15:48:13 beach: right 15:48:26 -!- Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:49:07 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:20 Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:51:35 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@85.22.93.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:53:42 is there a free AllegroCL edition for 64 bit? 15:54:01 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:54:18 no 15:54:47 unless that has changed quite recently. 15:54:57 sigh 15:55:07 is there an open source case sensitive lisp? 15:55:16 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:16 clisp has modern-mode. 15:55:16 lispworks also does not supply a 64bit personal edition. 15:55:19 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:43 sykopomp: hmmm, I could try to load it with that 15:55:45 lisp is case-sensitive. :) It's just the default reader settings 15:55:50 madnificent: http://clisp.sourceforge.net/impnotes/clisp.html#opt-modern 15:55:51 madnificent: where would you be running clisp? 15:55:56 dlowe: I know, not my code 15:56:14 dlowe: In practice, that's not true. None of the standard readtable settings does what ACL's mlisp does. 15:56:17 clhs readtable-case 15:56:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rdtabl.htm 15:56:22 rpg: just testing, 64bit on a local machine... not really getting what you're trying to figure out 15:56:22 clhs *print-case* 15:56:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cas.htm 15:56:23 benny [~benny@i577A2A0F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:31 ignas [~ignas@188.69.226.101] has joined #lisp 15:56:37 I had the readtable-case discussion with Xophe a while ago, and we established that it really wouldn't work. 15:56:41 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 15:57:01 case :preserve wouldn't work, because the symbols in COMMON-LISP aren't lower-case. 15:57:03 what rpg said. You still have all of COMMON-LISP in uppercase. 15:57:07 heh 15:57:26 IS THAT A PROBLEM? 15:57:28 :invert and print symbols the right way. 15:57:33 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:57:38 you could write something that also exports all symbols in lowercase format (for any given package), no? 15:57:52 gz [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has joined #lisp 15:58:06 -!- gz [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has left #lisp 15:58:11 madnificent: symbol identity wouldn't be preserved 15:58:21 madnificent: you can only export symbols under their own names 15:58:35 so if their names are upper-case... 15:58:39 ah right 15:58:41 how about symbol-macros? ;) 15:58:41 pkhuong_: :invert won't work, because you don't want, e.g., your symbols that correspond to XML tags to have their cases inverted. 15:58:58 LiamH [~none@132.250.138.103] has joined #lisp 15:59:18 basically if you want a CS lower-case-preferred Lisp, you want Allegro in modern mode 15:59:28 I think you could do something by making a new package that imports all the CL symbols, hooks them to downcased symbols and exports the downcased symbols. This is more work than I've ever cared to do. 15:59:30 or CLISP in modern-mode. 15:59:45 either case, something that requires a case sensitive lisp shouldn't be dubbed as code for common lisp 15:59:50 I was going to put that in my snarc CL layer 15:59:50 it would be nice if SBCL and/or CCL provided modern-mode as well. It certainly has its uses. 15:59:55 (sorry did not know CLISP had one as well) 15:59:58 madnificent: linuxp? 16:00:01 madnificent: Common Lisp reader is case-sensitive 16:00:17 tfb: in clisp, it can be activated per package. 16:00:21 adeht: read what was said before 16:00:26 rpg: just print them right. 16:00:27 adeht: that becomes irrelevant when the default case is to upcase symbol names when reading it, and we already had this discussion. 16:00:29 I wish we would use some other more neutral term than "modern mode", but it probably can't be helped now. 16:00:40 sykopomp: |please| 16:00:44 :) 16:00:49 For example, the linux package is case preserving, so that linux:getcwd is actualy read as LINUX:|getcwd|. 16:00:55 rpg: if you read with :invert, you just have to perform the reverse operation when printing. 16:01:04 pjb: that is quite cool (per package enabling) 16:01:16 *beach* associates "modern" with "worse than before, but we are trying to sell you something". 16:01:24 rme: elegant mode! 16:01:36 I prefer to write LINUX:|getcwd| to avoid any problem, eg. when reading these sources with other implementations. 16:01:39 beach: I used to feel that way. Then I had to work with XML, and was converted. 16:01:48 beach: I don't think that the modern mode is bad per se... 16:01:54 It's just wildly more convenient. 16:01:57 beach: but it does ring that bell 16:02:00 As an ex-Modula-2 programmer, I like uppercase 'keywords'. 16:02:29 Also for interoperation with Java, which seems like the enterprise glue of today. 16:03:00 -!- ignas [~ignas@188.69.226.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:03:06 I have just learned to watch out for politically-motivated terminology such as "modern", "pure", "hygienic", "strong" (typing), "dynamic" (languages), etc. 16:03:09 For that matter, working with Java I need ACL, anyway, so portability is out the window... 16:04:00 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:04:12 beach: don't forget their antonyms 16:04:27 -!- dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:04:35 adeht: I am very aware of those, yes. 16:04:50 beach: if you call it "case-sensitive" it doesn't hurt as much ;-) 16:04:59 very true. 16:05:46 also reminds me.. "Gabriel remarked that this wasnt a good name because we were trying to define an Elitist Lisp, and Common Lisp sounded too much like Common Man Lisp." - The Evolution of Lisp 16:05:46 16:05:48 aifnord [~aifnord@79-133-4-112.bredband.aland.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:27 my experience is that most of the fun things in life are not pure, modern, or particularly hygenic, actually 16:06:40 seriously, I was against it, but have come around after needs to work with standard software plumbing of today. I can see that this is something that people wouldn't have needed so much in the early days of CL. 16:07:11 I, too, think it would be way cool if SBCL had a case-sensitive mode, but understand why the maintainers wouldn't want to do it. 16:08:38 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:09:31 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:09:45 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:11:09 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:53 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has left #lisp 16:12:15 noninterning reader is more useful than case-sensitive mode 16:12:33 p_l|home: that seems to be very very subjective, no? 16:12:45 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 16:12:45 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 16:12:45 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:12:46 manually uninterning typos is kind of a PITA. 16:13:15 madnificent: true. The difference, IMHO, is that you can already use |symbol| for the case sensitivity 16:13:18 why would you do that? 16:13:50 OT: is there a newsgroup or other forum for discussing ILC-related issues? I just had a thought about a possible invited speaker, but don't know where to raise the issue and who with... 16:14:05 p_l|home: yes, but that makes writing a DSL harder from time to time. When you're writing a nice DSL, you don't want users to write every symbol between pipe characters 16:14:16 rpg: there are multiple alu mailing lists. 16:14:16 rpg: Perhaps on an ALU mail list? 16:14:23 p_l|home: My experience invoking, e.g. Java methods, from Lisp says that that ain't so --- the alternatives to modern mode are just too cumbersome. 16:14:25 pydroid [~kenny@110.92.101.138] has joined #lisp 16:14:34 rpg: i think one is devoted to just ILC stuff. 16:14:58 Xach, pjb: I'll see if I can find one, now that I'm a member ;-) 16:14:59 commonqt uses #_ reader macro for calling c++ methods 16:15:13 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-214.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 16:15:25 which reads case-insensitively 16:15:36 errr, sensitively 16:15:52 Yeah, CCL uses #_ for C functions, too. 16:16:04 You could put a read macro on zero-width non-breaking space. 16:16:08 ACL makes Java methods just look like CL funs. 16:16:42 Anyway, like I said, I don't have a way to call Java from CL aside from ACL, anyway, so it doesn't matter to be unportable... 16:16:51 these are possible because the reader is case-sensitive.. that some people prefer the default case-translating behavior to be different is another matter. please stop talking as if it's case-insensitive 16:16:56 the problem with Qt is that there is so much methods, it takes considerable amount of time to define all functions for it 16:17:02 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 16:17:33 stassats: Possibly because there's more introspection, you can automagically get all the functions. 16:17:45 stassats: but you can't write something that would take the complete following s-expression case-sensitively (possibly escaping it somewhere in the s-expression with yet another symbol), can you? 16:18:39 adeht: it is a way of wording, making it easier to talk about it. 16:18:49 madnificent: no, I think it obscures the issue 16:19:23 everyone here understands that reader is case-sensitive, so we can stop saying ten words instead of one 16:19:39 only to give no opportunity for someone to nitpick 16:19:58 stassats: welcome to #lisp ^_^ 16:20:08 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:21:40 stassats: regardless, was what I said correct? (it wasn't rhetorical) 16:22:09 madnificent: yes, you can read whatever you want 16:22:13 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-222-170.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:22:18 and personally I'd prefer to map from java/xml/... names to lispy names, if the abstraction should be in the same level (which doesn't happen all that much anyway) 16:23:29 adeht: I agree with that. Who wants some stupid frobnicatorWithBogbrish when you can have frobnicator-with-bogbrush 16:23:41 i though about this for Qt, but it has irregularities in names to make two-way mapping 16:24:17 I find it to be a pita from time to time. Even if it were just as a layer between the published abstraction and the internal implementation. Having case sensitivity can make your life easier 16:24:34 tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:11 stassats: what should I read to find how I can make certain s-expressions read in a case-sensitive form? 16:25:40 clhs read-delimited-list 16:25:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_del.htm 16:25:49 KimoOta [~tom@71-94-160-81.dhcp.knwc.wa.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:50 that should get your pretty close 16:26:07 there are also read-delimited-form hacks on the web, methinks 16:26:17 -!- KimoOta [~tom@71-94-160-81.dhcp.knwc.wa.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:26:46 tfb's, actually :) 16:28:12 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:28:19 are there? 16:28:25 *tfb* checks 16:28:47 for this problem READ may be sufficient, of course.. depends on the syntax you want 16:28:55 there are many tfbs 16:29:24 tfb? 16:29:28 milanj [~milanj_@82.117.199.26] has joined #lisp 16:29:32 ah yes I forget the others. I must kill them 16:29:42 ah ok 16:31:38 madnificent: (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\= (lambda (stream char argument) (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable))) (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) (read stream t nil t)))) 16:31:48 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:31:54 -!- leadnose [leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has left #lisp 16:32:20 #='(iLoveCamel CasE) => (|iLoveCamel| |CasE|) 16:32:51 (I DON'T) 16:32:52 stassats: and then make something equivalent to get back to case-insensitive (just set the previous readtable back), thanks! 16:33:47 stassats: thanks, I can toy around with it now :) 16:34:19 symbole [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 16:35:07 madnificent: i don't understand your first sentence 16:35:18 madnificent: (i just read the log) you can build an acl personal image that's case-sensitive (what they call modern lisp image) 16:35:42 jeti [~user@p54B4647B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:49 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.187.144.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Quit: tfb] 16:35:54 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754f3d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:20 i think that in such images, cl symbols are lower-case 16:36:21 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:36:32 syntard [cc335cfb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 16:36:39 hey, who's up 16:36:45 acl pro and enterprise come with those images already 16:37:32 forgive me, but according to my algorithm, (mysqrt 4) is 5895092288869291585760436430706259332839105796137920554548481/2947546144434645792880218215353129666419552898068960277274240 16:38:00 syntard: but that's my bank account balance! 16:38:14 oh, i missed / 16:38:24 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:27 stassats: there goes your savings 16:39:40 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@56.Red-88-11-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:39:43 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 16:39:51 so, what were you asking? 16:40:10 stassats: when you're reading an s-expression case-sensitively, you may want to move back to the 'normal' CL reading with upcased symbols by default. 16:40:33 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 16:40:38 madnificent: but i don't modify the readtable 16:41:06 stassats: you shadow it (or what is it called?) 16:41:16 -!- Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:41:16 pmd: I guess that that's what swclos requires from me 16:41:17 i copy it 16:41:56 stassats: and shadow (?) *readtable* 16:42:13 well, surely 16:42:23 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:42:32 i thought that would be obvious to you 16:42:43 stassats: it is 16:43:12 Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:43:33 stassats: but I might want to use #> (or something) to switch back to the normal reader (nvm) 16:43:56 switch back where? 16:44:01 inside #=? 16:44:25 Genosh [~Genosh@56.Red-88-11-127.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:56 inside an s-expr prefixed by #> occurring within an s-expr prefixed by #= 16:45:42 Quoting and escaping semantics and syntax are subtle beasts 16:45:43 alright, just don't show such code to anyone 16:46:07 stassats: =P 16:47:05 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:32 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E27B70.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:48:56 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:49:13 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:50:10 does any other implementation have "modern" mode, i.e. case-sensitive and lower-case CL symbols? 16:50:16 wouldn't local read-tables be useful for such application? 16:50:26 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 16:50:34 Fade: what do they do? 16:50:51 what's wrong with (|thisIsACamelCaseMethod| object) ? 16:50:58 *drewc* didn't read the entire scrollback 16:51:03 Bronsa [~bronsa@host117-173-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:51:07 enable a specific read-table in a local context. 16:51:11 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:51:14 gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:17 Fade: what are its limitations 16:51:21 my understanding is that it works as if in a (let ..) 16:51:39 drewc: it can be a pita when you're creating a binding with another language 16:52:14 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:52:36 http://common-lisp.net/project/named-readtables/ 16:52:48 Fade: how does it differ from what stassats said earlier? 16:52:56 yeah, it'd be nice if modern mode caught on with more impls. 16:53:41 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:53:59 at least the lowercase symbol part would be nice. 16:54:17 it's not that different, but it looks like tcr's impl has the advantage of associating the rt with a name that can be recalled and passed around. 16:54:24 silenius [~silenus@rrcs-64-183-24-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:49 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-061-243.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 16:55:11 foom: what I don't really like is that at a time certain implementations will not support it, and others will... It may also give rise to strange issues in libraries that used to work perfectly. 16:55:18 foom: but I want it too! 16:55:20 -!- makks [~makks@p5DE8E8B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:34 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633486.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 16:55:48 Fade: I'll look into it, thanks! 16:55:51 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E240B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:03 at times like these, I hate I have to eat 16:56:05 I'll be back! 16:56:08 \quit 16:56:10 -!- pydroid [~kenny@110.92.101.138] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:26 -!- PCChris_ [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-174.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:56:26 madnificent: i guess i don't fear the extra characters as much as i fear custom readtables... keep in simple n explicit like. 16:56:27 madnificent: somehow, franz manages to load fasls compiled with modern-case in ansi-case images, but not always the other way around 16:56:37 -!- splittist [~John@251-173.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 16:56:37 naturally, you would install all your #=, #±, etc. using named-readtables 16:57:02 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633486.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:57:21 stassats: it'll be dirty either case :) but it may be fun to play with 16:58:05 then again, i don't often do bindings for languages other than C, and that's only rarely, so what do i know. 16:58:35 meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-049-241.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:16 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:59:20 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-061-243.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:00:26 Fade: to be fair, this is something that tcr and I developed based on something that has long existed in Allegro. 17:00:35 thing is, a modern-case lisp would play better with c, java, scheme, etc. most other languages that are case-sensitive too 17:00:45 (tcr and I == mostly tcr) 17:00:53 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:00:58 rpg: I am wholly unaware of the history; i just found the page I linked a few days ago. 17:01:13 I didn't mean to deprive attribution. :) 17:01:44 Fade: Right. It was a very Good Idea on the part of someone @ Franz. Or it may have come from the old lisp machines! ;-) 17:02:00 neither explanation would surprise me. 17:02:15 rpg: i do know what lisp machines has such a feature :) 17:02:30 -!- rukowen [~thehien@222.253.106.10] has left #lisp 17:02:34 it's an excellent idea. 17:03:00 I wonder why names for readtables didn't end up in CL... 17:03:35 Did anyone here use ISLisp yet? Is there still work on it? 17:03:37 should have asked gigamonkey! 17:06:06 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 17:06:36 Jabberwockey [~Jens@78.50.65.137] has joined #lisp 17:07:58 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:08:02 -!- sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:46 sepi: AFAIK, there's a single person working on an ISLisp. 17:08:51 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09:07 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:09:37 http://christian.jullien.free.fr/ 17:10:08 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 17:10:32 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:11:35 sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has joined #lisp 17:11:47 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:36 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:53 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: hometime!] 17:12:56 jdz [~jdz@host214-111-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:14:17 it seems like a really nice standard 17:14:28 A very good implementation too. 17:14:47 There are links to two other implementations too. Probably more than users... 17:14:53 Genosh: openlisp? 17:15:22 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.30.94] has left #lisp 17:15:30 sepi: Yes. 17:17:31 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 17:18:44 SDF had ISlisp installed on their machines, afaik 17:19:03 Unfortunately no sources are available :/ 17:19:08 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:19:09 mind you, out of open source implementations only two will work on their system 17:19:30 (NetBSD/alpha xD) 17:19:36 sepi: Jullien might send the sources to you if you want to take a look. 17:19:56 no, it was more a gneral thing 17:20:12 TISL looks good to and it's open source though. 17:20:18 *too 17:20:29 ISlisp is kinda cool from a quick perusal 17:21:24 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:22:39 I just acquired a pretty sizable alpha server I'm hoping to make available to lisp hackery. 17:22:55 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:23:05 *p_l|home* is interested in acquiring one in UK, for university 17:23:08 Fade: excellent 17:23:44 if I can rebuild its disk packs, i'll replace the current netbsd system and load debian on it. 17:24:09 dlowe: the standard? 17:24:56 isn't it a waste of time to work on declining platforms? 17:25:09 stassats: debian 4 life 17:25:30 sepi: that's what I'm reading 17:25:33 Rolling release nerds unite? 17:25:53 i meant alpha 17:26:08 stassats: 64 bits are here to stay. 17:26:29 what's the big deal with alpha, anyway?... 17:26:41 its a beautiful architecture. 17:26:55 maybe not so practical these days. 17:27:13 <_8david> on the topic of declining platforms, I'm very excited to see that the dmitry branch gets some love on sbcl-devel! 17:28:08 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:28:19 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:22 but the recent work on threading for sbcl on ppc/linux can be leveraged to other risc systems, of which there are a great many in deployment. 17:29:13 gigamonkey: PragProWriMo  http://media.pragprog.com/newsletters/2010-10-27.html (scroll down for the actual article). Maybe I'll do that, since I'm not doing NaNoWriMo. 17:29:34 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:30:13 <_8david> Is my understanding right that the safepoint implementation on that branch would roughly have the +/- 1-2% performance impact as quoted in pkhuong_ 's blog? 17:30:17 it's also a mustache growing month 17:30:32 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-217-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:31:23 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:31:26 -!- Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:31:34 _8david: approximately, yes. Although my mprotect hack is pretty ugly; a more sane implementation would be heavier. 17:32:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:01 Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:36:41 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-131.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:38:29 -!- syntard [cc335cfb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.51.92.251] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:38:35 <_8david> is it different from (and uglier than) what hotspot's TEST does? 17:39:26 BeardedOctopus [~The_Engin@cpe-065-191-063-233.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:00 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.98.198] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:40:34 similar, except that I don't get to delay asm until runtime. Either I reserve a magic page in the address space, or I try and use mprotect on a page at a constant offset from the thread struct (not posixly correct). 17:42:25 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:52 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:43:29 <_8david> okay, so mainly it has multiple protected pages, as opposed to only one. 17:43:59 <_8david> Sounds to me like the disadvantage is a more complex setup (as well as a very slightly more complex instruction operand). But the advantage is that it can trigger a safepoint in a specific thread, whereas Hotspot can only trigger all threads. (right?) 17:45:15 right... and the mprotect isn't posix compliant (mprotect can only be assumed to work on full mmapped address ranges, not arbitrary subranges) 17:45:58 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 17:46:30 pkhuong_: really? 17:46:36 pkhuong_: I don't see that 17:46:41 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:46:54 <_8david> posix mprotect 17:46:54 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xsh/mprotect.html 17:47:43 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:49:12 It'd be nice if specbot would update its link to the 2008 edition instead of the 97 edition. 17:49:38 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/mprotect.html 17:50:24 leo2007 [~leo@120.37.102.242] has joined #lisp 17:50:52 "The behavior of this function is unspecified if the mapping was not established by a call to mmap()." depends on how you read "a call" and "the mapping", I suppose. 17:51:07 -!- Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-14-55.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:29 hello all, any idea what are those dots on a lottery paper http://imagebin.org/120696? 17:51:57 along with the other bits about requiring a multiple of page size, I read it as requiring that the memory range is within an area established by mmap 17:52:05 rather than via malloc, initial executable setup, stack space, etc. 17:53:23 foom: it has to be established through mmap because that's the only portable assurance that the OS has necessary information for bookkeeping 17:53:25 so do I, but ISTR some discussions with an obsd dev, and the bsd-stard maintained that they could randomly break that for me. 17:53:45 p_l|home: the question is whether I can mprotect a fraction of a mapping established through mmap. 17:53:46 many OSes don't have that limitation, but it's... undefined 17:53:54 pkhuong_: you can, afaik 17:53:59 they could randomly break anything they want 17:54:10 but if they broke *that* for you, it'd break a heck of a lot more stuff 17:54:20 what you need to do is to hit the correct page, of course 17:54:21 PCChris_ [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-180.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 17:54:22 so, standardese or not, it's not going to break 17:54:49 <_8david> ... and "a heck of a lot more stuff" includes SBCL anyway 17:54:55 yup 17:54:57 right. 17:55:21 although I think SBCL would be better off not using page protection for its gengc, anyways. :) 17:56:44 and that's the point at which I consider working on something else from scratch (: 17:56:47 -!- PCChris_ [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-180.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:48 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host117-173-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:58:07 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:59:14 cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:30 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:01:27 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has left #lisp 18:04:18 <_8david> if the change is per-backend, and given that there aren't _that_ many VOPs per backend, that change might not be as much work as it sounds. 18:04:32 tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:11 <_8david> The hard part is debugging it, and it seems to me that for this work, you could run SBCL in a debugging mode where _every_ write access pagefaults, and then you can systematically check in the signal handler whether the new code in the VOPs has set the flag for the right address. 18:05:16 <_8david> That would be slower by a couple of orders of magnitude, but perhaps good enough to run a few test suites. 18:05:35 <_8david> And much easier than to think hard about memory corruption following GC. 18:05:48 if only everything was converted into accesses via SAP. 18:07:12 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:14:43 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:17:24 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:43 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255942.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:20:48 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:01 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:30:22 phrixos [~clarkema@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has joined #lisp 18:30:31 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E240B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:07 dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:14 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E240B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:31 Afternoon all 18:31:41 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:31:57 anyone got any experience using yaclml with custom tag attributes? I'm currently grovelling through the source, and it looks like it should just work 18:32:23 but it's not accepting my current attempts 18:34:14 phrixos: paste? 18:35:24 (<:html :lang "en" :xmlns "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" ... ) 18:35:35 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:50 if i remove the :xmlns and its value, all is good, because yaclml knows about :lang 18:35:51 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:36:26 -!- colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-1-241.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 18:36:49 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:58 looking at the source in html4.lisp, it seems that it should also accept unknow attributes for that element, but it's not having it 18:38:34 colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-1-241.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:39:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.37.102.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:41:43 Is there any way a compiler macro can see how things have been declared when expanding? 18:41:56 with cltl2 extensions 18:42:51 link? 18:43:21 LiamH, http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/8.2/doc/environments.htm 18:43:27 cltl2 declaration-information 18:43:27 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node102.html 18:43:47 Is this "CLTL2 Compatility Layersb-cltl2 module provides compiler-let and environment access functionality described in Common Lisp The Language, 2nd Edition which were removed from the language during the ANSI standardization process. " 18:43:49 ? 18:44:18 yes. 18:45:24 But they were removed from the standard, so it would be dependent on the implementation to support. 18:45:46 right. 18:46:14 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:47:33 so i'm starting a lisp company 18:47:52 I thought you were going to be a game journo? :) 18:47:54 dto: Dancing Lambdas Inc? 18:48:29 Fade: i've decided to skip that sort of, and focus instead on finally bringing something to market 18:48:32 Xach: :) 18:48:35 His Holiness Dhali Lambda 18:48:46 XIOMACS corporation 18:48:59 how do you pronounce it? 18:49:09 zzziomax 18:50:29 it is a great idea dto 18:50:37 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:50:40 Xach: hmm. isnt Bill Atkins a lisp guy? i seem to remember that name. perhaps a little bit of hope for continued lisp use at signpost! 18:50:48 hypno: yeah, i think so. 18:50:49 ZYE oh MAX 18:51:00 humasect: :) 18:51:08 anyway it's not happening this week or anything, think early 2011 18:51:22 On signpost it's says he's an Objective-C programmer (iOS) 18:51:24 what's the company focus? 18:51:43 But it's the CTO who decides. 18:53:39 manby-ace_ [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:57:46 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:59:20 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:43 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-185-182.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:02:47 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-217-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:51 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-185-182.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:04:02 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 19:05:50 ah, got it 19:05:59 (<:html :lang "en" (@ :xmlns "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" :|xml:lang| "en") 19:09:15 -!- konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:09:21 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:11:16 -!- colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-1-241.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 19:12:19 -!- zbigniew is now known as zbignova 19:13:47 -!- jdz [~jdz@host214-111-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:15:57 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:21:50 dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dd3.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 19:22:15 hmm. http://www.signpost.com/static/pdf/career/software_engineer.pdf, looks like they are using Java. :/ 19:22:22 -!- dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dd3.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:19 Dare to be different. 19:23:46 syntard [cc335cfb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 19:24:05 -!- silenius [~silenus@rrcs-64-183-24-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:25:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:13 what is the accepted way to set sbcl's compiler policy globally? 19:31:42 Fade: define globally. 19:32:08 -!- msr [msr@unaffiliated/msr] has left #lisp 19:32:23 Fade: if you want to do (declaim ...) for your entire project, one possible way to do that is to shadow in-package with your own macro that expands to (progn (in-package :foo) (declaim (optimize debug))) 19:32:32 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 19:32:33 or such 19:32:44 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:32:59 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-21-209-90-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:33:16 sykopomp: ooh, nifty trick, ty :) 19:33:17 ignas [~ignas@62.212.204.115] has joined #lisp 19:33:53 Fade: restrict-compiler-policy is useful. 19:33:59 well, 99% of the time I'm wanting debug 3 safety 3 when I'm developing code. 19:34:15 syntard_ [~quassel@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 19:34:20 pkhuong_: I'm just looking at that in the sbcl manual. 19:34:23 what does optimize safety add in SBCL, again? 19:34:32 sykopomp: more type and range checks. 19:34:43 -!- syntard [cc335cfb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.51.92.251] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:34:49 also, checks some assumptions related to function types. 19:35:02 -!- syntard_ is now known as syntard 19:35:15 -!- xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:35:53 so (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3)) in .sbclrc would do the trick? 19:36:48 IIRC, speed 0 and high debug triggered some compiler bugs in the past. 19:37:11 pkhuong_: should be ok now 19:37:20 is that call signature correct? 19:37:35 no, it's a function not a macro 19:38:06 (restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 3) 19:38:11 Fade: and it can only specifies minimum values. 19:39:04 safety 2 is a good setting: type-checks are full, but some expensive things required for clhsly safe code are not done 19:40:06 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:40:51 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.73.141] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:41:58 pkhuong_, nikodemus : thank you. 19:42:38 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:47:59 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:50:23 i made graphs, and http://xach.com/tmp/hu.dwim.perec.png is the largest, file-size-wise. 19:51:08 well, Xach, you really never half-ass anything. 19:51:31 dysinger [~dysinger@rrcs-98-101-162-106.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:32 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@rrcs-98-101-162-106.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:52:06 dysinger [~dysinger@rrcs-98-101-162-106.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:33 the osicat < cffi < babel rocketship in http://xach.com/tmp/linedit.png made me smile 19:52:47 <_8david> that doesn't even include the backends, right? 19:53:27 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@rrcs-98-101-162-106.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:53:34 _8david: this is project granularity, not systems 19:53:37 dysinger [~dysinger@rrcs-98-101-162-106.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:38 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@rrcs-98-101-162-106.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:53:58 systems would be an unreadable tangle in that example 19:54:04 more of one, that is 19:54:36 <_8david> okay, if it's project granularity, then my screen is too small to navigate the graph properly, since I couldn't spot postmodern among the perec dependencies 19:55:24 Xach: could you draw a graph by author (i.e. even coarser granularity)? 19:55:27 Might be interesting. 19:55:30 (Might not, too.) 19:55:39 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:55:42 ah, thanks - that's a bug. the root is a system, not all a project's systems. 19:55:54 gigamonkey: I wonder how many projects have author information! 19:55:57 we could copy bibliometric indices (: 19:56:28 Xach: or use the domain you downloaded it from (or github user if it's from there) 19:58:56 <_8david> the rocketship is very cool. The way asdf works though, redundantly declared transitive dependencies seem rather random -- they depend only on whether the asd author felt like stating them, without a practical impact. Might be worth pruning them. 19:58:56 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:23 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:52 <_8david> admittedly, that reasoning goes for systems. They aren't necessarily redundant when working on a project level. 20:00:35 Right. Never know if babel will stop depending on the other two. 20:00:49 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:38 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:03:57 khumba [~khumba@206.87.9.65] has joined #lisp 20:06:59 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:07:44 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:08:34 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-85-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:43 Sikander [~user@5356F49F.cm-6-7d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 20:10:08 So I finally received PAIP, and have to say that I came to the conclusion that lisp is an ungodly language. 20:10:14 No language should be so powerful! 20:10:39 I should've gotten that book earlier, dammit. 20:10:45 flattery will get you nowhere 20:10:56 Ah, dammit 20:11:20 El-Dorado [~nurlan@109.127.29.71] has joined #lisp 20:11:27 But seriously, almost every example is wtf magic 20:11:40 (do-magic) 20:11:59 That's much better than windows' do_nothing_loop() 20:12:18 LiamH: Hi 20:12:40 Sikander: Hi 20:12:43 LiamH: I was wondering if the recent thread about grid could have anything to do with the slow fft examples? 20:13:00 Sikander: Exactly my thought; did you see the memo I sent? 20:13:06 ... 20:13:16 LiamH: Apparently not. Where should I have seen this memo? 20:13:26 minion: Give Sikander his memo! 20:13:39 minion doesn't like me 20:13:49 minion? hello? 20:13:49 :( 20:13:59 minion has left the channel. 20:14:04 Oh well. Basically it said just that. 20:14:14 Ah. ok. 20:14:36 I have to admit, I've only superficially been reading that thread. I'll have a closer look, though 20:14:51 Sebastian says that if cffi:mem-aref knows the type at compile time, it goes way, way faster. 20:15:44 So I wrote a grid:gref* method specific to vector-double-float with the type hardwired in, and he said it made no difference, which puzzles me completely. 20:15:49 It makes sense (I guess) that there could be some improvement there, but I haven't tested the examples to see the improvement for myself 20:16:09 Ah, I hadn't seen the latter result yet 20:16:13 simias [~simias@server.svkt.org] has joined #lisp 20:16:21 No, not some improvement, but orders of magnitude, from ~2 seconds to a few milliseconds in his example. 20:16:23 hello 20:16:37 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:16:45 LiamH: I know. That's what I mean. I'd expect *some* improvement, but not what he shows. 20:16:49 in common lisp, what's the best way to create an array and fill it with instances of a class? 20:16:54 LiamH: Haven't tested it myself 20:17:31 Sikander: in my last email, I asked him to (re)post his full example file, so we can all run tests and experiment with improvements. 20:18:07 LiamH: Sounds great. I'll read the whole thread again and follow it more closely. 20:18:33 I hope it's something more or less trivial... 20:18:43 Sikander: Good. I think it is very FFT relevant, though he was just using double-float arrays, no complex. 20:18:56 -!- sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5a55:caff:fef2:a811] has quit [Quit: sellout] 20:19:11 Well, it'll be relevant for the fftw bindings too :) 20:19:27 Well if it is just that a literal type is way faster, than I have a quick fix. 20:19:45 Which is? 20:20:29 simias: (loop with array = (make-array length) for i below length do (setf (aref array i) (make-instance 'class)) finally (return array)) 20:20:42 Sikander: Define methods for each of the foreign-array subclasses in which the element type is passed literally to mem-aref and therefore runs superfast. 20:20:49 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:21:07 But the quick test I ginned up for vector-double-float didn't make a difference, so I'm stumped. 20:22:03 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:22:14 LiamH: Is this quick test in the thread somewhere? 20:22:35 sykopomp: ok, thanks, I wondered if there was something more... elegant 20:22:59 something like "doarray" 20:23:00 Yes, my message of Oct 26 20:23:02 sykopomp: Wouldn't it be possible with one of the mapping functions and using initial contents to make-array? 20:23:10 LiamH: Ah, ok. 20:23:20 LiamH: I'll have a look, and play around. 20:23:40 simias: you can map-into 20:23:48 Sikander: OK, looking forward to what you find. 20:23:51 if you have some sequence with the instances... 20:23:57 sykopomp: I'll look at that, thanks 20:24:18 otherwise I'll try to write a "doarray" macro as an exercise 20:24:24 LiamH: Lately, my lisping as been confined to some reading. But I'll get around to gsll again one of these days 20:24:32 s/as/has/ 20:25:16 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:25:18 indeed, (map-into (make-array length) (lambda () (make-instance 'class))) 20:25:19 LiamH: Also, I've finally made the transition from vim to emacs (which takes a lot of getting used to) but now there's slime magic! 20:25:26 Sikander: I've been doing some lisping (for the jobs) but not much effort on GSLL specifically. 20:25:46 Sikander: good! 20:25:58 Sikander: are you a quicklisper yet? 20:26:00 delicious map-into. 20:26:05 hmmm... 20:27:01 LiamH: I haven't installed it yet, but am totally committed to doing so this weekend. 20:27:12 LiamH: Well, whatever there is to install... 20:27:40 I've seen the slides, read the blogs, seen the examples and I'm sold. But I'm also incredibly lazy 20:28:02 gsll require fsbv 20:28:07 requires 20:28:15 LiamH: I also saw that gsll is (the first?) project to use quicklisp as primary dist method 20:28:15 Sikander: It takes literally three minutes to install and test GSLL. 20:28:16 at leastin quicklisp 20:28:28 -!- tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:30 LiamH: Except when fft tests are on ;) 20:28:38 homie: yes, it does; quicklisp has no notion of optional systems. 20:28:47 homie: is that a problem? 20:29:04 LiamH: yet i got linkval, defmacro-defsystem and loopless into quicklisp 20:29:08 lol 20:29:16 But seriously, though, fsbv is a relatively light dependency 20:29:17 no it isn't 20:29:27 sorry meant above 20:30:11 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:32 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-201-217.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:31:03 and i got persistent-table into it too 20:31:04 homie: Since libffi is pretty widespread and FSBV is lightweight, I figured it was just better to have quicklisp make GSLL dependent on it. 20:31:35 ok but fsbv is just another package handler not ? 20:31:35 Sikander: I meant 3 minutes to the time you start lisp-unit:run-tests. 20:31:55 homie: I don't understand your question. 20:32:37 FSBV allows calling/returning foreign structures by value to/from foreign functions 20:32:39 ah no sorry 20:32:47 jep i see 20:33:13 I am (slowly, intermittently) working on incorporating it into CFFI. 20:33:29 LiamH: Ok, instead of procrastinating, I just installed quicklisp. Dammit, it's too easy. How can I now feel like a 1337 lisper?! 20:33:41 -!- El-Dorado [~nurlan@109.127.29.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:34:05 Sikander: Ask Xach to make a "slowlisp" version? 20:34:21 LiamH: Wait, isn't that asdf? 20:34:22 gah these cl-sourcefile "blah" "blah" not found messages of asdf really suck 20:34:48 Sikander: Yeah. 20:35:04 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:35:17 Xach: Thanks for quicklisp! Even though I just installed it 3 seconds ago, it already seems awesome! 20:35:27 Sikander: do note that the versions that you get are not always the latest, so having the bleeding edge may require some more work. 20:35:33 Now to see if it's just as painless under windows... 20:35:46 See! 3 seconds, not even 3 minutes! 20:35:52 Heheh! 20:37:04 LiamH: Well, I still have the git repo, of which the asd is symlinked in the systems directory. Apparently quicklisp has no problem with grabbing that version. 20:37:13 LiamH: So I can just git pull whenever I want 20:37:46 Sikander: right, so as long as ASDF finds your clone, it will override the quicklisp version. 20:37:50 LiamH: But the fetching works fine (roughly 3 minutes) 20:38:27 LiamH: Yep, when I place the symlink back, it overrides the quicklisp version, ineed 20:38:29 indeed 20:38:33 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:42 symlink? 20:39:01 the symlink of the gsll asd files in the git repository 20:39:34 Never mind, I'm trying to explain something very simple in an extremely complicated way 20:40:13 No symlink. Define dir(s) in asdf:*central-registry*, should pick it up. Even in ASDF2 that is necessary. 20:40:34 Ah, OK. 20:40:44 :D 20:41:25 Quicklisp seems quite complete already. Is it possible to just switch to that from clbuild? 20:42:12 Sikander: I'm doing that right now. 20:42:38 What I mean is, I'm not going to miss packages, right? Just looking through what quicklisp offers, it seems like everything is there (at least, of the stuff that I use) 20:43:01 Sikander: the repos are not the same 20:43:02 Tell Xach if there's something you want in there. 20:43:06 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:43:14 Sikander: but you can add sourself some i think 20:43:33 Sikander: you know there's a #quicklisp 20:43:35 homie: Ok, sure, the repos aren't necessarily bleeding edge. I understand. 20:43:38 -!- khumba [~khumba@206.87.9.65] has quit [Quit: Oyasumi.] 20:43:40 Sikander: many things i saw in clbuild are not shown in quicklisp 20:43:42 LiamH: woo! 20:44:05 homie: Hmm, I'll have another look, but maybe those are things I don't need 20:44:30 Anyway, it's getting late and I need to get up early tomorrow to pretend to work 20:44:43 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:44:46 quicklisp seems to incorporate many things for ide's and windows stuff 20:45:08 Sikander: pretending to work is better if you're actually coding in Lisp 20:45:51 LiamH: yeah, I know :) Alas, my work now is confined to acquiring the data (that I later process in gsll) 20:46:03 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6512.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:07 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:46:19 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 20:46:27 Sikander: use the extensive RNG functions of GSL to make your own data. No lab work needed! 20:46:29 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:39 LiamH: And I think most of the code there is written; I just run some functions on that data. 20:47:19 LiamH: Yeah, dammit. at least using RNG with different seeds will put me further than Schön! 20:47:30 Sikander: ha ha 20:48:14 LiamH: Woo, you know about Jan Hendrik Schön! I thought that was limited to physicists and chemists. 20:48:24 Sikander: I am a physicist 20:48:29 Oh, really? 20:48:47 I thought you were working in cs? 20:49:07 (maybe we had this conversation before, but I have a bad memory) 20:49:14 Sikander: My degrees are in physics, I teach/work in aerospace engineering. Never had a CS course in my life. 20:49:21 Oh, right. I remember. 20:49:29 WTF!? I had a function in a loop writing output to a file with with-open-file. I C-c C-c'd itfrom SLIME and the file got deleted? 20:49:45 *That* is not what I wanted to have happen to my data! 20:50:21 -!- milanj [~milanj_@82.117.199.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:38 Anyway, today I've actually accomplished something today by installing quicklisp. 20:50:46 After such a fulfilling day, it's time to sleep 20:50:53 Goodnight 20:50:57 Sikander: goodnight 20:51:00 -!- Sikander [~user@5356F49F.cm-6-7d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Time to sleep...] 20:51:37 gigamonkey: the :if-exists :supersede thing was run at compile time? 20:53:00 or was the loop still running when you recompiled the function? 20:53:17 gigamonkey: close with :abort t 20:54:07 Fade: I didn't recompile; I interrupted. 20:54:16 adeht: I'm not sure what you mean. 20:54:20 clhs close 20:54:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_close.htm 20:54:24 gigamonkey: ^ 20:54:32 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:45 I guess this is the specified behavior: "If a new output file is being written, and control leaves abnormally, the file is aborted and the file system is left, so far as possible, as if the file had never been opened." 20:55:39 adeht: the question is how to I make with-open-file close the stream the way I want. 20:55:42 tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:47 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:56:35 gigamonkey: you can ditch with-open-file and close it yourself 20:57:42 adeht: I wonder if unwind-protect will reliably protect your from the function being interrupted. One would hope so. 20:58:27 The good news is I had basically all the data (from several days of running this code) visible in various Emacs buffers so nothing was really lost. 20:58:37 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-210-181.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:35 jesu... what does the code do? 20:59:37 is there an easy way to take a lisp file and have emacs reformat it to kosher lisp standards? 21:00:15 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:00:29 yan: C-x h M-C-\ 21:00:58 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-217-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: tmux testen] 21:00:58 -!- Revolve [~3@cpc4-bagu10-2-0-cust705.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:01:14 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-214-9.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:01:22 adeht: thanks 21:04:37 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-217-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:04:55 Fade: it was finding the number of solutions to each of a bunch of randomly generated Sudoku puzzles using Knuth's dancing links algorithm. 21:05:18 The average number of solutions was 48,427,651 with a standard deviation of 150,519,824. 21:05:37 how many sol'ns/sec were you running? 21:06:07 adeht: Weird, I always used C-M-q (indent-sexp) for that. I can't type C-M-\ on my keyboard. What command does it invoke? 21:06:17 Fade: a far number. I didn't time it but I printed out every time (zerop (mod solutions 100000)) 21:06:26 And it printed out a line about every second or two. 21:06:26 Hexstream: C-M-\ is indent-region 21:06:39 14:06:15 up 1130 days <--- i'm going to be sad to see that server go :( 21:06:44 Ohh. Ok. 21:07:05 nearly four years of uptime. 21:07:40 better not publish the hostname; it's going to have several kernel vulnerabilities. :) 21:08:39 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:08:39 Er, "a fair number" not "a far number" 21:08:58 gigamonkey: s'cool. 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host closed the connection] 22:20:02 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:22:53 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:55 chaslemley [~chaslemle@c-24-126-197-42.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:34 anyone know of a good tutorial for using the s-xml (http://common-lisp.net/project/s-xml/) package to process xml documents? I need a little more help than just the api. 22:25:00 GrayMagiker: I haven't seen anything like that. You might look at some project that uses s-xml and see how it uses it. 22:25:20 GrayMagiker: For what it's worth, I think CXML is superior in implementation and documentation. 22:26:07 Thanks Xach. I am not hard over on s-xml, google lead me there. I will check out cxml. 22:26:27 GrayMagiker: when s-xml isn't a preexisting dependency, just go with CXML 22:26:46 CXML-STP is probably the easiest, nicest way to work with XML I have encountered, *ever* 22:27:16 -!- 20QACDHQD [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: 20QACDHQD] 22:27:35 "nice, easy", i can't utter such words about XML 22:27:43 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:59 -!- ignas [~ignas@62.212.204.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:28:44 But even with XML you must admit that some ways are "nicer" and "easier" than others,right stassats? 22:28:49 stassats: "If we just back up nice and easy, maybe we'll all survive." 22:29:18 GrayMagiker: constant factors don't matter 22:29:19 stassats: now you can see the power of CXML-STP! :D 22:29:33 rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:03 i'm using cxml-stp to parse html, and my code is ugly as hell 22:32:26 -!- dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:33:08 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:33:46 stassats: whenever I think of using DOM or SAX, I shiver 22:33:55 though CSS selectors would be nice 22:34:31 -!- meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-049-241.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:35:29 there's plexippus 22:35:42 also xmlspam 22:36:10 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:49 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:37:02 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-50-72.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:37:50 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: XChat has encountered a problem and needs to close] 22:38:07 anyone tried the latest asdf 2.145 ? 22:38:15 *Fare* feels like making it 2.010 22:39:03 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 22:39:19 -!- rTypo [~rTypo@pc54.clicknet.iasi.rdsnet.ro] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 22:40:14 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.155] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:43:15 phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:44:49 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:45:41 don't sit and blame yourself - complain! 22:48:17 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:48:41 land of lisp book is out in pdf format 22:48:43 woot! 22:49:12 holycow: where? 22:49:45 you have to buy it online ... i pre-ordered mine, the download became available yesterday appearently, the book will soon be in the mail i guess 22:49:55 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-214.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:50:00 nostarchpress.com or even amazon i guess 22:50:42 *p_l|home* wishes he could spend the £32+shipping for it today 22:53:20 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:22 why programming books have to be soo blooody expensive? 22:53:30 and I can't raid the library for this one 22:54:00 yeah. i ponied up just to support it 22:54:18 and i like the topic to be honest ... games are a fun way to learn stuff 22:54:37 p_l|home: because nobody buys them 22:55:11 that too 22:55:17 p_l|home: also, there are some discounts 22:55:22 for land of lisp 22:55:30 stassats: I had rather weird programming library at home 22:55:59 http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/dx139/land_of_lisp_released_includes_music_video/ 22:56:11 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:56:16 ... 6502 assembly-related stuff formed quite a bit of it, now that I think of it (scattered at grandparent's house, though) 22:56:16 even two Lisp books there :) 22:56:26 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839AC4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:56:50 oh man, no wonder i can't use asdf:load-source-op in quicklisp 22:57:00 it is fmakunbound 22:58:04 hmmm 22:58:14 the yaclml mailing list has some pretty brutal spam filtering 22:58:38 maybe it's just because you're a spammer 22:58:49 clearly 22:59:00 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:59:01 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@78.50.65.137] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:59:18 ... I'm going to raid a bank, I think 22:59:18 *phrixos* makes a note not to spam people by asking questions about submitting patches again 22:59:25 syntard_ [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:25 -!- syntard_ [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:25 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:59:34 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 22:59:42 even with the discount, I can't buy Land of Lisp, because my bank issued me such a ridiculous card that is nearly useless 23:00:12 p_l|home: bank raid? multiple accounts in separate banks? 23:01:04 stassats: no, the kind that involves storming the branch with dragon backup 23:01:33 yeah, backup is an alternative to raid 23:03:19 -!- syntard [~quassel@204.51.92.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:03:28 stassats: and much more effective in dispatching security teams that try to take you in for doing (SETF (ceo (find-bank 'rbs)) nil) 23:07:16 (srsly, the card is near useless - works only at card-capable tills and in ATMs) 23:07:21 is there somthing like chicken-bin for common-lisp too ? 23:07:40 wbooze: chicken-bin? I assume it's some tool related to Chicken Scheme? 23:08:08 it generates c files from scheme sources 23:08:23 wbooze: ECL has such capability 23:08:30 ah 23:08:40 so sbcl not ? or cmucl ? 23:08:41 including building entire source trees that don't require Lisp compiler to build 23:08:52 ok 23:09:10 wbooze: both SBCL and CMUCL use C only for (small) runtime library - everything else is written in Lisp and doesn't touch C 23:09:38 ok but not even a lib which brings in that functionality ? 23:09:40 the same for CCL and most commercial implementations (there's one that is related to ECL) 23:10:11 <_3b```> why do you need .c files? 23:10:22 wbooze: the scope of your question is so big you need an implementation built for that - it's possible for Chicken becuase like ECL it compiles through C compiler 23:10:50 -!- jeti [~user@p54B4647B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 23:10:50 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:28 ok 23:12:21 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.234] has joined #lisp 23:13:41 <_3b```> looks like http://www.informatik.uni-kiel.de/~wg/clicc.html does a subset of CL 23:14:06 yeah, but that's still kinda "implementation" rather than "library", iirc 23:14:53 <_3b```> well, the distinction is a bit blurry when you implement the implementation in portable CL :) 23:16:08 *stassats* gives _3b``` three commas 23:17:56 -!- _3b``` is now known as `3b 23:18:02 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu197.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:18:45 *p_l|home* gets an urge to make a DSL to balance weasels on a rake 23:19:05 that's interesting, in SBCL: ```1 => 1 23:19:17 i would expect a list 23:19:37 clhs ` 23:19:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 23:20:06 <`3b> hmm, that does seem odd 23:20:08 * `basic is the same as 'basic, that is, (quote basic), for any expression basic that is not a list or a general vector. 23:22:39 <`3b> i guess the bit about only needing to produce the same result when evaluated applies, since '1 and 1 evaluate to the same thing 23:23:13 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 23:23:23 what about ''1? 23:23:24 huh? ```foo ==> ``foo ... indeed, I'd expect ```1 ==> ``1 23:23:50 <`3b> ```foo ==> ''foo here, which seems reasonable 23:23:53 (more like ''foo and ''1) 23:24:00 and it's the same in ccl 23:24:13 but clisp answers with ''1 23:24:14 <`3b> foo and 'foo evaluate to different things though, unlike '1 and 1 23:24:26 3b: so what? 23:24:41 `3b: '1 evaluates to 1, but ''1 does not 23:24:46 <`3b> 'the innermost backquoted form should be expanded first. ' ? 23:25:45 this doesn't have anything to do with the order 23:27:16 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.234] has left #lisp 23:27:35 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:27:56 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:10 cipher [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:18 <`3b> well, it is valid to interpret `1 as 1, right? 23:28:24 syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:33 -!- syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:25 *`3b* is not arguing that this is a good interpretation of the spec, just can't quite convince myself it is nonconforming 23:29:44 3b: depending on the context, I'd say.. but (read-from-string "'1") and (read-from-string "`1") supports your point 23:30:52 <`3b> no context needed... "An implementation is free to interpret a backquoted form F1 as any form F2 that, when evaluated, will produce a result that is the same under equal as the result implied by the above definition" 23:31:12 I guess my expectation was wrong due to time of backquote processing 23:31:22 <`3b> it could expand to (+ 0 1) for that matter i guess :p 23:31:23 syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:57 grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:56 -!- grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:33:31 grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:37 what is the rationale to make ```1 expand to 1 23:33:45 *`3b* notes that ```nil does the same thing, but not ```:foo 23:34:11 <`3b> `1 expands to 1, so the next ` sees that, and again expands to 1, and again for the outermost ` 23:34:29 stassats: reduces down to literal as much as possible.. I guess there are eager backquote implementations and lazy ones 23:34:32 <`3b> heh, but ```t expands to ''t 23:35:37 -!- chaslemley [~chaslemle@c-24-126-197-42.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:52 adeht: i mean are there any benefits for the user to have ```1 => 1 23:35:56 3b: I guess the backquote implementation special-cases for some literals but missed T :) 23:36:16 stassats: smaller code footprint? 23:37:05 <`3b> possibly is faster/smaller when it happens inside a huge nested multiply backquoted form 23:37:28 <`3b> since it doesn't have to evaluate all the extra QUOTEs on constants 23:37:54 -!- grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:38:12 -!- LiamH [~none@132.250.138.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:38:19 *`3b* is just guessing though, and agrees it is unexpected on the trivial case 23:39:51 heh.. I'm looking at sbcl's backq.lisp and think I noticed a redundancy in backquotify 23:40:59 it first checks that CODE is an atom.. if it is, one of the further checks is if it's a CONS 23:41:26 i noticed that too... 23:45:34 and returning NIL and T for nil and other atoms seems to be for no reason either 23:46:08 you could get away with just NIL, or T 23:49:54 at the cost of one additional recursive call 23:50:23 err, not recursive 23:50:37 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:51:47 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:52:04 italic [~italic@cpe-74-77-219-209.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:11 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 23:52:35 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:52:41 anyone know how to log to a different dir when running hunchentoot under screen? 23:54:22 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx55-2a-223.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]