00:04:46 -!- jomatv6 [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:04:52 jomatv6 [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has joined #lisp 00:05:33 how does one get the system names of installed packages ? 00:06:24 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:07:24 homie: there isn't a general way to answer that. 00:07:35 homie: do you mean specifically quicklisp? 00:07:43 not only 00:08:06 but i feared such an answer wuold come out 00:08:13 homie: Ok. Then there isn't a general way. You could try to go through each path in the central registry and look for *.asd files. 00:08:34 homie: That's no guarantee it will find everything asdf:find-system would. 00:08:55 Xach: ok then i have to look how asdf itself does it ? 00:09:15 Xach: is asdf's aproach 100% ? 00:09:45 why do you need that? 00:09:46 homie: asdf starts with a string and looks for a system. 00:10:03 homie: that's not the same as asking "what systems are installed?" 00:10:13 ah 00:10:22 homie: although if you generate every possible name you could use asdf:find-system to filter that list... 00:10:42 start with "a" and proceed through "zzz...." 00:11:09 *gigamonkey* hits Xach with a Unicode 5.0 manual. 00:12:57 does it not accept wildcards witha module like wild-modules or so ? 00:13:29 homie: No. 00:15:23 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 00:15:38 is there no :system slot in asdf ? 00:15:59 actually, using find . -name '*.asd' might work ok.... FSVO current working directory... 00:16:20 depending on what you mean by "installed." 00:16:22 homie: What do you mean when you say "installed"? 00:16:30 homie: Do you mean loaded into the current session? 00:16:36 Xach: ha, ha, beat you to it! 00:17:08 Xach: no, not necessarily loaded 00:17:41 he probably means all the packages that asdf can find in registry 00:17:53 jep 00:18:07 so it has something like of a registry ? 00:18:26 do you want to use the package names in lisp code or do you just want to see the list 00:18:26 but what structure ? 00:18:46 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:47 homie: It has a set of functions that can be used to find a system give a name. One of the default functions searches through a list of directories. The list is in asdf:*central-registry*. 00:18:59 i want to invariably relate some package names to system names 00:19:07 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:14 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu254.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:19:16 n:1 00:19:27 "invariably"? "relate"? 00:19:28 -!- kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 00:19:38 a system can define as many packages as it likes, or none... 00:19:39 if you just want to see a list of all the packages that you are able to load, you can M-x slime-load-system then hit TAB for completion 00:19:53 and you will see the list in a new emacs buffer 00:19:54 kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:58 kenanb: that's really systems, not packages... 00:20:02 -!- kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:20:03 lol 00:20:07 waahahah 00:20:13 roflmao 00:20:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:20:35 kenanb: that isn't bulletproof mechanism. 00:20:52 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:21:08 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 00:21:11 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:21:51 Xach: yes, i know, but i have huge lack of lisp knowledge to come with bulletproof ideas :) 00:22:46 kenanb: well, there is no bulletproof idea. there isn't a general way to enumerate what strings will result in a system object if passed to asdf:find-system. 00:25:02 homie: why do you want to "invariably relate some package names to system names" btw 00:29:00 obiously in recompilation some systems try to pass around package names or so... 00:29:53 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:30:23 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:30:30 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 00:31:02 DocOnDev [~doc@cpe-24-166-73-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:09 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:32 homie: what do you mean by "pass around"? 00:32:00 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 00:33:43 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:34:08 chaslemley [~chaslemle@h76.205.140.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:42 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.124] has joined #lisp 00:35:49 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 00:35:49 -!- DocOnDev [~doc@cpe-24-166-73-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:44:45 dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:08 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:51:18 is LOOP or FORMAT turing complete? 00:51:29 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:40 (no, I don't want to write any code like that, just checking) 00:54:07 on a completely unrelated topic: any suggestions for a topic to be used to introduce CL by example to a group of people? Mostly professionals, interested in pragmatic applications 00:54:15 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:55:12 p_l|home: What kinds of application have they written before/do they write now/are they interested in writing? 00:56:06 I was thinking of using web programming for an example, because quite a lot of them are involved with that kind or consider it 00:56:32 other than that, there's lack of specifics - it's a TechMeetUp meeting and I was considering doing a CL presentation once :) 00:56:39 *dnm* nods 00:56:42 p_l|home: server side web programming is ok --- client side, I'm not sure... 00:56:59 Do most of them use or work with one particular technology for building web applications? 00:58:30 dnm: nope. It's more like a motley crew of various people interested in IT which just happens to be heavily involved with business side as well 00:58:46 Hrm. 00:58:59 rpg: I'm investigating applying ECL for less painful client side programming :) 00:59:28 (since I don't have possibility of funding for a license for LW in at least a year) 00:59:46 p_l|home: Have you looked at Clozure CL? 01:00:13 dnm: I did 01:00:20 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.38.70] has left #lisp 01:00:21 Ah. 01:00:33 it's what I currently use for Windows 01:00:43 *dnm* nods 01:00:45 Same here. 01:01:28 p_l|home: screen scraping? 01:01:32 the thing is, I really want to experiment with *small* binary sizes 01:01:37 rpg: nice one 01:02:01 it's good to have an alternative to my current "redo last month's talk in CL with DEFSERVICE" 01:02:20 (it was twitter-related application done to present how Sinatra works) 01:03:42 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:55 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 01:06:56 some people might have some encounter with Lisp before, but I want to bust possible myths :) 01:07:32 *p_l|home* will be evil though and prepare snippets before hand to make his coding faster - something he needs anyway 01:11:45 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:26 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx55-2b-51.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:19:20 p_l|home: Just out of curiosity, why ECL instead of CCL or SBCL? 01:19:38 BTW, you could get a free license to ACL or LispWorks, I'm pretty sure. 01:19:58 Not my thing, but I think both have IDEs.... 01:21:13 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:23:17 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:20 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:25:30 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:54 rpg: SBCL produces *huuuge* executables. CCL gives around half the size of SBCL. ECL, so far, makes much smaller ones 01:26:05 To be expected. 01:26:23 It of course depends *what* kind of application I want to release 01:26:24 p_l|home: Right, but you get a lot of good environment stuff for that size (notably debugging support). 01:26:35 rpg: true 01:26:46 I am gung-ho enough about debugging that I even write my SBCL applications in ACL and then port. 01:27:24 I'm not thinking of using ECL as *developement* platform, but more of a deployment one for the small applications or ones where I need to ensure that they can be compiled from source without a lisp system 01:27:32 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:28:54 ACL is technically available, but I don't want to pay per client, while LW offers a royalty-free deployment license and the cost issue is mainly due to the fact that I'd have to pay it several times if I wanted to cover more than one platform 01:30:07 p_l|home: I get that, but you were talking about doing a demonstration. Wouldn't you rather entice your audience with a more sophisticated environment, instead of a bare-bones one? 01:30:12 Microsoft is deadly cheap in price comparison - $100 for a company-wide license for three years (iirc, at least 2 years, but I think it was 3 or till you pass $1m turnover) 01:30:19 I.e., the tool for demonstration and the tool for deployment are different. 01:30:30 Microsoft has better economies of scale ;-) 01:30:32 -!- chaslemley [~chaslemle@h76.205.140.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:34 rpg: ah, for the demonstration I'm going with SLIME and SBCL 01:31:15 I'll probably mention CCL and ECL, and possibly show LW and ACL (if my licenses didn't expire) 01:31:23 (the personal versions) 01:32:59 p_l|home: Oh! I get it! I was confused between your demo and your application. 01:33:06 yeah 01:33:11 The only issue with ECL is that its compiler is fairly stupid. 01:33:21 But if the performance is acceptable, then that's fine. 01:33:30 I bet you could get LW or Franz to give you a special license, if you were doing a demo! ;-) 01:33:51 Yeah, but you really can't beat ECL for executable delivery. 01:34:05 ECL plays well with others. 01:34:26 Zhivago: AFAIK LW offers similar level, and both ACL and LW offered creation of dynamic libraries 01:35:00 none though have ECL's capability of compiling whole systems into DLLs that reuse OS dynamic linker for the application, afaik. 01:35:13 ECL also supports static native binaries. 01:35:23 And it works with the native toolchain. 01:35:55 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 01:35:56 true 01:36:35 *and* it makes it dead-easy to incorporate (with exceptions et al.) C++ binaries, even on win32 01:37:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 01:38:07 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:20 chaslemley [~chaslemle@h76.205.140.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:47 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:44:29 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:29 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.77] has joined #lisp 01:47:46 -!- chaslemley [~chaslemle@h76.205.140.67.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:50:50 *p_l|home* noticed that there's one thing that consistently trips him in CL 01:51:33 I lack the somewhat clear ability to relate the code to what ends as machine code 01:52:06 And unlike certain other languages, the answer is not "just write that part in C" 01:56:35 Why do you care? 01:57:00 Also, are you aware of the disassemble function? 01:58:36 Zhivago: I am. It's just that I don't expect CL to be as slow compared to C as let's say Python, so I sometimes trip on ideas that I find simple to implement in C or assembler... it's an interesting effect 01:58:51 I guess it might pass after I get more experience with CL, I guess 01:59:09 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:59:15 It's mostly about degrees of class freedom and how crappy your compiler is. 01:59:29 If you can constraint things to be of one class then operations tend to get fast. 02:01:02 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.108] has joined #lisp 02:02:12 yeah. It's just that some stuff gets nicely explicit in my mind when I express it in C because it doesn't offer the abstractions, so I know for example that the datastructure ends up in certain way. In other languages I'm perfectly willing to use FFI for that since they usually are implemented in C anyway (at least the ones I encounter) 02:04:07 ah well, so far I don't really need it that much, I'm not going to write any bytecode interpreters any time soon 02:04:38 timmy [44323b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.50.59.114] has joined #lisp 02:07:16 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:11:45 Savory_Snax [~chatzilla@76-236-35-147.lightspeed.frsnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:16 can i defun a function that takes like a &key arg but just needs to specify the keyword without the value, like to pass boolean options.. i.e. (generate-value 34 :constant) or (print-something lst :with-newline) or do i need to pass a 't' as a key arg 02:12:18 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:14:11 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:15:07 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 02:15:49 clhs 3.5.1.6 02:15:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_eaf.htm 02:15:54 ^ 02:16:00 -!- Savory_Snax is now known as Snax 02:16:30 in other words, not through &key, but possible through &rest or &allow-other-keys 02:17:30 but then you have to parse the list yourself 02:19:46 grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:19 do you really keep all those index numbers in your head? :) 02:20:23 p_l|home: hm looks like &rest is what i'll use.. 02:20:41 udzinari: no, I just found it to be the easiest way to refer to the page I found 02:21:08 -!- sirmacik [~bolek@host-86-63-158-4.nplay.net.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:21:09 I can't reliably give links like can I? 02:21:37 and I don't know a keyword to refer to that page 02:22:24 actually, there is no keyword for that page, as specbot only has symbol lookup with some extras, it seems 02:24:11 sirmacik [~bolek@host-86-63-158-4.nplay.net.pl] has joined #lisp 02:24:37 p_l|home: yeah ofc :) 02:25:14 *udzinari* wispers to morpheus, sorry false alert.. :/ 02:25:59 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:28:23 heh 02:28:40 tell that to someone who apparently went back to 36/12 sleep cycle 02:28:44 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:30:43 -!- grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:32:55 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:36:32 hadronzo` [~user@188-126-68-63.cust.vpntunnel.org] has joined #lisp 02:36:37 -!- hadronzo` [~user@188-126-68-63.cust.vpntunnel.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:38:26 -!- hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-72-85.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:39:21 p_l|home: that sounds like what I need 02:39:39 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:39:54 it's horrible 02:41:27 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:42:14 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 02:42:29 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 02:43:55 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:24 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:46:48 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:49:59 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:52:35 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:03:42 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:13 "develop with SBCL (or other favorite non-ECL lisp), deploy with ECL" suggests you won't take good advantage of ECL's strengths (primarily, nice inline C) 03:05:09 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 03:05:29 hefner: true 03:05:47 though it can be mitigated by further mixing various parts 03:06:08 inline C is something I'd mainly use for FFI-related elements anyway (like EQL) 03:06:23 (EQL being QT4 binding for ECL) 03:08:30 I should look at this. I take this stubborn position that if you have inline C (or C++, rather), an FFI-style interface in lisp is pointless bloat 03:09:02 pydroid [~kenny@bb116-14-162-27.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:09:49 I'll have to look into programmatically generating said inline C(++) for a project of mine 03:11:03 against a sufficiently large (or hairy) toolkit I guess there might be call for some glue and helper code 03:11:43 *hefner* was grumbling the other night because he can't get a 32-bit version of ECL to build on OS X due to assembler stupidity building GMP 03:12:56 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:14:14 inline C++ would be a very sexy feature, had I more faith that it'd continue working in the future (at least, it was broken when I started with ECL and for for a long time after) 03:14:22 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:03 hmm... I only configured it to compile in "C++ mode" with MSVC and quite old ECL 03:18:01 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:19:27 ECL is cool, but I wish it didn't use Boehm or a hardware write barrier, and sometimes I find myself wishing for an lean, mean bytecode-driven system instead 03:20:27 -!- csimon [~adfadf999@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:20:40 hefner: then clisp is your wish. 03:21:00 it really isn't. 03:21:00 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:21:13 it's GPL, that's the biggest problem. 03:21:15 noto using boehm , lean, mean bytecode-driven. 03:21:26 GPL is an added benefit! 03:21:45 Or are you against freedoms? 03:22:58 ... what freedoms do you speak of? 03:23:09 dictating my licensing for me isn't a fredom 03:23:11 *freedom 03:23:30 Freedoms for the users! 03:23:41 writing proprietary software, so I guess that makes me an enemy of freedom 03:23:49 and what's worse, iirc CLISP is GPLv2 only 03:25:57 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:00 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 03:26:19 pjb: when I release something as "free software", it means the user can do "Whatever the fuck they want with it" except for changing authorship 03:26:29 (basically, european public domain) 03:27:15 changing authorship is illegal anyway in at least one law system I fall under 03:27:18 And they can also remove this liberty from other users from their own copy. 03:27:47 pjb: that's freedom. Forced "freedom" isn't 03:28:23 and I actually want to distribute some stuff as "proprietary" (note that I didn't say closed-source) 03:28:33 *hefner* wonders if anyone uses the bytecode compilation in ECL, or if it works. 03:29:11 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has quit [Client Quit] 03:29:32 Sure, at run-time. 03:29:56 You don't imagine Apple left gcc on the iPad? 03:29:57 it works 03:31:39 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255942.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:31:53 pjb: are you referring to someone using ECL on the iPad? 03:32:42 hefner: yes. I'm not sure it's really yet, but we may dream. 03:32:50 (and ECL does have an interpreter, so it doesn't *need* a working bytecompiler for normal operation, nor do I think it ever uses it under any normal circumstance unless configured to) 03:33:17 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:34:09 Hasn't the iPad been overtaken yet by android tablets? 03:34:12 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-cyycbkwrsrqdtopa] has joined #lisp 03:34:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-cyycbkwrsrqdtopa] has quit [Changing host] 03:34:12 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:34:56 The iOS UI is nicer than Android's. 03:35:13 hefner: afaik it's interpreter is bytecode based, and it uses the bytecode compiler similar to how SBCL or CCL use their compilers (i.e. everything is bytecoded when loaded or evaluated) but a call to (compile) uses a temporary file while (compile-file) creates a shared object 03:35:42 I would't exactly say it's nicer, but they definitely got better working AppStore 03:35:51 p_l: That corresponds to what I remember, but it's been a long while. 03:36:23 Zhivago: a simple exercise to confirm it is to define a function in REPL then disassemble it 03:37:32 (disassemble (lambda () (+ 4 5))) => NOMORE; PUSH 4; PUSH 5; CALLG 2,+; EXIT 03:37:56 a rather simple stack machine 03:38:32 I'm more interested in whether ECL needs Lisp Objects to keep immutable addresses 03:38:56 morphling_ [~stefan@gssn-5f756f77.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:23 most of the interesting GC's aren't conservative 03:39:25 p_l: Given that it happily passes pointers around to C code, I think that the answer is 'yes'. 03:39:44 It's a feature for playing well with others, rather than performance. 03:40:16 okay, sure, bytecode there (forgot it worked that way, if I'd ever even noticed), but what I had in mind was producing bytecode fasls from compile-file 03:40:24 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:40:29 Zhivago: damn 03:40:54 still, I wonder if it can be separated into pinned and non-pinned objects 03:40:58 I think that you should be celebrating. 03:41:02 BrianRice-mb [~briantric@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:08 It probably could, but why care? 03:41:13 -!- timmy [44323b72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.50.59.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:41:20 That would make playing with others much more dangerous. 03:42:00 Zhivago: I was looking over GC implementations and wanted to play around with some ideas 03:42:32 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7540c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:42:49 I'm coming to the conclusion that erlang has the right idea on GC. 03:43:06 everything immutable, you mean? 03:43:45 I like that too, but I don't see how to do that for CL :) 03:44:34 Well, same deal -- just keep your processes small. 03:44:42 Then your GC algorithm doesn't matter nearly as much. 03:45:07 The normal lisp approach is to shove everything into one place. 03:45:29 I think this is one of the main reasons for lack of general adoption. 03:46:04 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:33 They missed out on the unix lesson of processes in return for cheaper debugging tools and ipc essentially. 03:47:28 Now that is really going to start to hurt with distribution. 03:47:31 Good morning everyone! 03:47:56 morning, beach 03:48:43 -!- Snax [~chatzilla@76-236-35-147.lightspeed.frsnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012113537]] 03:48:55 Hmm, I don't remember if ECL got support for multiple lisp systems in the same process working again yet. 03:52:02 With distribution GC also most degenerates into leases. 03:52:32 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-143.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:53:47 *hefner* begins to suspect ECL never claimed to support dumping bytecode to fasls and he fabricated the whole thing, which would explain why it work 03:53:56 (didn't work, rather) 03:54:16 hefner: I suspect so too :) 03:55:22 afaik the bytecodes are part of the compiler, actually, as the C code is generated from bytecode (IIRC) 03:57:00 p_l: From memory they are completely separate systems. 03:57:55 the generated C code isn't emulating a stack machine, so they certainly diverge before bytecode is generated 03:58:52 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F1C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:00:11 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:00:40 hefner: the bytecode seems quite close to how lisp code looks as datastructure (if you converted it to RPN), so it could just as well be used as general storage system for code 04:01:32 Modulo the mininal-compilation... 04:02:00 -!- pydroid [~kenny@bb116-14-162-27.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:02:22 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:08 Except that there's not much point when you have the original source code. 04:03:28 (and that source code allows sensible transforms upon itself) 04:04:49 yeah, it seems the bytecode isn't used by the compiler (reading through ECL wiki) 04:05:56 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:07:56 is it possible to use &body with &key in a defmacro without destructuring the argument list? eg. (defmacro defobject (name &body slots &key inherit) ...) i 04:08:25 AFAIR, yes, but body will get the keys too. 04:08:33 &body is like &rest. 04:08:49 And it also means that body must have an even number of forms. 04:09:20 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:09:34 mmm.. it does complain about the number of forms 04:09:42 For macros, it's better to use sublists: (defmacro defobject (name (&key inherit) &body slots) ...) or (defmacro defobject (name (&rest slots) &key inherit) ...) 04:10:10 pjb: yeah, that works it just doesn't give me the syntax i wanted for the macro :P 04:10:35 derrida: if you want more control on the syntax, (defmacro defobject (name &rest stuff) (parse stuff) ...) 04:11:06 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 04:12:31 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115909 04:12:50 clisp detects the odd number of arguments. 04:12:58 yeah sbcl too 04:13:33 Theorically you would also have to add an &allow-other-keys. 04:14:49 http://groups.google.com/group/fr.comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/7e1f11a8490c97c4# 04:16:55 pjb: perfect 04:19:12 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:24:00 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255942.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:59 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 04:38:57 -!- konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:41:37 -!- p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:08 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:43:24 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-139.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:43:43 p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 04:44:14 guh i love this interracial lisp gang-bang thing man 04:44:17 lol 04:44:52 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:02 btw, I found some references to precise GC for C++, though it apparently used smart pointers everywhere 04:45:02 (with mostly-precise support for C) 04:50:00 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-139.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 04:51:11 -!- beach` is now known as beach 04:59:18 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ptqzvzljfwzlsqjy] has joined #lisp 05:00:50 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:41 frusting to get repeatedly disconnected when none of my IPs have even changed. stupid NAT devices. 05:09:59 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 05:12:39 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:12:46 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:30 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:17:15 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:17:34 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:18:47 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:42 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:16 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:28:54 az [~az@p5796CAC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:49 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:31:48 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 05:32:46 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:17 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:14 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:40:14 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:40:32 hmmm... the GC I was looking into apparently is conservative (it can be modified to compact, but doesn't require that as part of the algorithm). Who knows, maybe I'll get to work on GC for last-year project :) 05:41:55 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:02 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:16 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:42:38 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:42:55 p_l|home: What kind of project would that be? 05:43:53 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:45:04 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:57 beach: implementation and analysis of a concurrent GC for C/C++ in context of ECL. But I already see that it has little chances of happening... nearly every available topic brushes wit AI at my uni o_O 05:47:18 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 05:49:01 mulander_ [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 05:49:30 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:49:46 beach: I might end up working on it anyway, just not for coursework 05:49:47 darkestkhan [~darkestkh@wifi.ii.uni.wroc.pl] has joined #lisp 05:50:34 VCGC is interesting, though. Even if it relies heavily on linked lists 05:50:55 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:51:45 ``Erik_ [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:11 timor [~timor@port-92-195-98-182.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 05:52:57 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:53:48 p_l: Why not do an incremental GC instead? 05:54:12 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:12 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:12 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:12 -!- mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:12 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:12 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:12 -!- ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:12 -!- vsync_ [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:54:12 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:55:10 Zhivago: The best would be to make it possible to abstract GC out in runtime, so it would be possible to test few different approaches 05:55:39 Well, that should be trivial enough. 05:55:42 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:48 Just indirect it through some function pointers. 05:55:57 You can then patch the values from lisp in the fly. 05:56:07 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:56:09 VCGC interested me because the only inter-thread synchronisation is when it changes the epoch 05:56:18 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 05:56:29 But maybe what you really want is support for multiple arenas, each with their own GC. 05:56:58 dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:12 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 05:58:47 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 06:00:16 Zhivago: what I'd like to know *right now* would be exact specifics of what people have against BoehmGC :) 06:00:50 other than that, I'm simply interested in low-level fiddling and GC became an interest of mine 06:00:57 p_l|home: Do you have evidence that "people" have anything against it? 06:02:01 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:02:07 p_l: Conservative. 06:02:16 beach: Right now I'm looking for anything *solid* other than some posts complaining about BoehmGC including about fragmentation. I was interested in fiddling with GC in ECL before that in order to have (room) output something :) 06:02:54 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:02:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:02:54 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:03:15 Zhivago: I wonder how much one could decrease fragmentation by adding specific support for certain types and allocating "typed" pages 06:04:07 Frankly I'd measure the fragmentation first. 06:04:37 Zhivago: true 06:04:47 People complain about fragmentation with malloc, but for the vast majority of programs it is enormously overstated. 06:04:55 zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:05:26 I agree with Zhivago. The works of Paul Wilson show that. 06:05:42 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:06:04 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:06:16 Zhivago: I had seen some more specifics about memory fragmentation in non-lisp, but apparently a big chunk of memory issues aren't caused by fragmentation in malloc() - that is, fragmentation and other memory issues happen, but not in malloc() 06:06:19 -!- darkestkhan [~darkestkh@wifi.ii.uni.wroc.pl] has left #lisp 06:09:37 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:12:26 vsync_ [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 06:13:44 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:13:57 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 06:15:46 (frankly speaking, my original interest in GC was to get rid of giant preallocation in SBCL and have fully-relocatable lisp, all due to certain limitations of my hosting provider) 06:16:18 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:21:19 jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has joined #lisp 06:21:37 -!- BrianRice-mb [~briantric@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice-mb] 06:22:31 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has quit [Changing host] 06:22:31 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:22:58 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:24:07 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:24:40 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:25:07 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.9] has joined #lisp 06:25:34 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:47 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:49 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:34:19 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:34:50 good morning 06:35:38 hello mvilleneuve 06:38:50 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:51 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:42:41 hefner: what would you use a "mean, lean bytecode-driven" lisp? 06:42:51 *lisp for? 06:44:17 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:14 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:53 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 06:58:30 Pretty much anywhere I might want to execute lisp code - could be a plugin for a big proprietary system, a scripting engine for an application written in C++, ObjC, etc., or for hosting a full application atop a small layer of support code 06:59:53 hefner: ECL? 07:00:52 clisp? 07:01:14 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:01:33 hefner: InteLib is somewhat like that. Leaner than ECL, as a library... But AFAICS, InteLib lacks a FFI feature. Should be rather easy to add though. 07:01:57 As a plugin, ECL is more indicated (E = Embedded) than clisp. 07:02:19 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-9.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 07:02:43 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:03:38 hefner: what issues do you have with using ECL for that? (cause I can see why CLISP might not fit) 07:03:57 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 07:05:02 Zhivago: I'm using (or have used) ECL in the latter configuration, where it worked acceptable (overlooking the very painful compile times and poor debugging), and sure, it's almost unique among CLs by potentially being applicable in the first two scenarios 07:05:46 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:06:52 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B3274D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:50 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:08:56 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B3268EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:10:55 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-132-210.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:11:20 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-132-210.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:44 concerning embedding, it shares too much of the mentality and implementation techniques used by traditional stand-alone CLs , e.g. meddling with signal handlers, mprotect, etc. which can too easily clash with the environment you want to embed into (and has done so in practice, if I recall correctly from the mailing list) 07:12:51 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:14:06 -!- morphling_ [~stefan@gssn-5f756f77.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:17:20 I know I'd given some thought to it from the angle of embedding as a scripting engine in a role somewhere between elisp and gimp's script-fu, but I don't recall my objection there 07:21:04 despite the name, ECL's greatest strength appears to be compiling CL to C and producing a standalone executable 07:21:37 -!- yan_ [~asym@srtd.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:22:35 *p_l|home* finds it interesting that after all this time, CLISP is essentially the only "open source" bytecoded implementation still alive 07:22:53 yan_ [~asym@srtd.org] has joined #lisp 07:23:11 See cmucl. 07:23:44 And ecl, for that matter. 07:24:13 bytecode *only* 07:24:14 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:24:19 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:24:50 there is supposedly some JIT for clisp, but I don't know about its quality 07:25:20 It uses lightning. 07:25:33 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 07:26:21 .. and in the standalone app scenario, there's no technical reason to "embed" it all. Ideally you could statically link ECL into the executable (neither a supported configuration nor desirable for proprietary stuff due to LGPL subtleties). It'd be nicer not having to haul the DLL separately, and you'd win performance directly linking calls / variable accesses / lisp environment lookups, eliminating the overhead of PIC code, etc. 07:26:42 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:27:06 excuse me if my perception of GNU lightning is "a project so we can be smug about free version and lecture people on it" 07:27:17 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:41 despise other implementations being more accessible and usable (with LLVM JIT growing in use) 07:27:59 Your perception of it is irrelevant. 07:28:26 Zhivago: does it work or is usable? (So I can change my perception ;)) 07:28:26 freik [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:39 From memory, yes. 07:28:41 -!- freik [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:28:48 nice 07:29:07 The idea being that it is blindingly stupid and blindingly fast. 07:31:00 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 07:31:37 LLVM is very cool, but a bit heavy. An extra several megabytes, minimum, and for some reason it unexpectedly started taking forever (well, five or ten seconds) to link with on my Mac. 07:32:31 C++ tax 07:33:08 hefner: so you'd be interested in non-virally licensed bytecoded Lisp? 07:33:39 (one that is only bytecoded so it doesn't call anything that changes process semantics?) 07:33:53 I think it's an unfilled niche, yeah. 07:35:09 I've been asking so many questions like that because I remember a discussion about MKCL few days ago :) 07:35:16 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 07:37:37 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:06 it could be an interesting project, IMHO, especially if coupled with SICL 07:38:16 well, more like "sharing code" than coupled 07:38:33 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:25 -!- lune [~claire@97.76.48.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:40:18 I'm totally bewildered lately as to what I should be building new applications (rather, toys) in 07:40:39 javascript :) 07:41:04 yeah, probably. =/ 07:42:27 rukowen: How is it going? 07:43:10 good afternoon prof. Robert 07:43:27 rukowen: Good to see you here! 07:43:31 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-9.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:43:42 thank you, we are trying to get familiar with LISP 07:44:03 z0d [~z0d@62.112.193.85] has joined #lisp 07:44:12 -!- z0d [~z0d@62.112.193.85] has quit [Changing host] 07:44:12 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 07:44:27 rukowen: There was some confusion about what a baseline is. Here is an article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseline_%28typography%29 07:44:38 Zhivago: not sexy after a good round of (E)CL / OpenGL slinging pretty animation and sound, though 07:45:34 Ahh, i understood 07:46:56 rukowen: Perhaps I'll post that URL to the mailing list. 07:47:33 oh, let me do it 07:48:08 "beach" and "beach_", both of them are you? 07:48:32 "beach' " 07:49:59 rukowen: usually I am beach, spiaggia, and plage. beach` etc is only when my ISP disconnects me and ERC reconnects automatically. 07:50:26 lune [~claire@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 07:50:43 I suppose I have been beach_ in teh past, but not for a year or so. Don't know how that happened. 07:51:50 I'm waiting for him to become littoral. 07:51:52 ah, that's my mistake. "beach' " not "beach_" 07:52:56 rukowen: I was going to use the Vietnamese word for `beach' but it has accented characters in it, which are not allowed as nicks :( 07:54:00 yes.. 07:54:23 Just use viscii. 07:54:35 That would look terrible. 07:55:29 ba~i bie^?n :) 07:55:50 Yuk! 07:56:23 You should be sent to a re-education camp. 07:56:46 Too late! 07:57:03 It's never too late for re-education. 07:58:10 S 07:58:36 Zhivago: you are from Viet Nam ? 07:59:15 No. 07:59:41 I've played battlefield viet nam though. Apparently based on an ancient war. 07:59:48 zoskia_ [~zoskia@unaffiliated/zoskia] has joined #lisp 08:00:02 Vietnamese is an interesting language, though. 08:00:22 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:00:35 rukowen: I think you will find people in #lisp very interesting because they know many languages, and they know about many others as well. 08:00:58 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-101.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:00:58 yes, sure 08:01:41 I know how to speak drunken, for example. 08:03:08 how supprise when I see Zhivago spells "ba~i bie^?n" 08:03:18 perfect :-D 08:03:33 rukowen: Zhivago knows many things. 08:04:12 Does Zhivago know how the female mind works, though? 08:04:22 Is that even knowable? Even my women? 08:04:36 It depends on whom you believe. 08:04:37 I suspect not, in both cases. 08:04:39 Hmm. 08:05:21 You may suspect as you wish. 08:05:27 Indeed I may. 08:05:31 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:05:31 And indeed I shall. 08:06:05 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-101.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:07:04 -!- zoskia_ [~zoskia@unaffiliated/zoskia] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:07:20 zoskia [zoskia@unaffiliated/zoskia] has joined #lisp 08:07:25 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-24-130-52-60.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:08 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-101.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:19:30 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:23:49 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:52 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:28:02 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ikwrsagqjcaieyyc] has joined #lisp 08:29:01 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:31:42 artificially_int [~artificia@ip72-205-32-177.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:04 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:32:30 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:32:50 can someone help with a problem? i have a list with tuples in it. i want to remove all tuples that have a specific value 08:33:41 i'm trying to use remove-if, but i dont know how to refer back to teh value i want to remove in the lambda functin that i'm testing with 08:33:48 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:34:23 artificially_int: try remove with :key and :test 08:34:35 minion: tell artificially_int about lisppaste 08:34:50 minion: paste? 08:34:51 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 08:35:15 artificially_int: use that to make your question clearer 08:35:38 CL does not have tuples. What programming language are you using? 08:35:57 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:36:13 it is CL, they are just sublists with two items in each sublist 08:36:37 once i paste into lisppaste, will you see it? 08:36:42 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.6.155] has joined #lisp 08:36:47 or is there something i need to enter 08:37:03 You will have to link the paste to us to see. 08:39:15 Well, the items gets passed to the prediate function ... 08:39:28 (lambda (x) ...) <- x should be each item. 08:40:14 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.5.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:41:17 http://paste.lisp.org/+2HFS 08:41:31 i hope that makes it clearer 08:41:48 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:42:34 artificially_int: what textbook are you following to learn common lisp? 08:42:40 paul graham 08:42:44 ansi common lisp 08:43:33 (remove 'A hand :key #'car) 08:43:40 what i want to do is go from '((A S) (A D) (A H) (K S) (K D)) ... to '((K S) (K D)) 08:43:49 artificially_int: please look at page 66 08:43:50 mal__: that's not very pedagogical 08:44:34 jdz: true. pedagogy has never been the same since they've deprecated caning. 08:46:26 THAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANKK UUUUUUUUUU 08:46:54 truthfully i haven't been reading the book, just skimming it and looking at teh index 08:47:07 but i will soon...exam :P 08:47:29 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-101.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:47:32 i have another question for you though 08:48:30 i have a list where the tuples all have the same first element except for one. how do i remove that one different tuple 08:48:33 artificially_int: btw, I'd recommend Gentle Introduction (especially since it's for exam, so I suspect a lot of list handling will be there...) 08:48:56 H4ns, you know the page numbers that well ? 08:49:03 ex: '((A S) (A D) (A H) (A C) (K S)) ... -> '((A S) (A H) (A C) (A D)) 08:49:06 minion: tell artificially_int about gentle 08:49:06 artificially_int: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 08:49:09 kushal: no, i know how to operate the index. 08:49:23 H4ns, ok :) 08:49:25 kushal: i.e. i took the book, looked up remove-if in the index. done. 08:49:36 i've been iterating over the list and taking cound...is there a more elegant way? 08:49:42 *count 08:49:45 artificially_int: yes. 08:50:47 _danb_ [~user@210-84-36-93.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:51:20 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-101.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:51:22 please share your knowledge with me :) 08:51:34 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:52:08 artificially_int: please read the book, then solve your homework yourself. 08:53:06 aww. ive already done it, i'm just elegant-izing my code 08:53:15 aka refactoring 08:53:16 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:53:28 can someone throw me a bone here? 08:53:29 don't forget paredit =) 08:54:32 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:49 so is writing gambling games one of the reasons why lisp was invented? 08:56:08 i am not sure if that makes sense. 08:56:13 also, lisp wasn't invented 08:57:20 It was discovered, like a bad penny. 08:58:53 i am not sure that makes sense either. lisp was always around in some form 08:59:09 simply has a different name in this context 09:01:43 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:17 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-101.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:03:25 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:04:08 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:05:17 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu002.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:05:47 Originally it was called Urbug. 09:05:57 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:06:01 And lived on the star Antares. 09:07:27 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:09:26 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 09:10:48 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:11:19 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:19 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu002.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:13:16 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:56 ah =) 09:14:53 ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:17:00 kenanb` [~user@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 09:17:47 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-104-253.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:18:21 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:18:21 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:18:21 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 09:18:21 -!- Intensity [5JMDiOLCZy@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:21 -!- benny [~benny@i577A215C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:18:22 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.235.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:19:22 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 09:19:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:19:31 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:19:38 Intensity [EthQypzXuC@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 09:20:02 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:20:23 artificially_int: lisp started out as a theoretical device that one student noticed as implementable if you do EVAL in assembly, iirc 09:21:56 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-104-253.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22:57 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 09:23:15 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:23:21 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:36 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:24:49 -!- jpanest [~jpanest@174-143-154-194.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:25:14 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-9-138.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:25:34 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:25:46 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:25:57 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 09:25:58 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:25:58 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:25:58 maus [~maus@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:20 Good morning! :) 09:26:31 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:26:31 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:26:48 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:04 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-9-138.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:27:59 jpanest [~jpanest@174-143-154-194.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:26 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:29:48 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:29:54 -!- artificially_int [~artificia@ip72-205-32-177.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 09:30:55 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 09:30:55 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 09:30:55 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:30:58 I have some problems after upgrading my Ubuntu to 10.10, the applications which uses McCLIM do not work well any more.. they are drawn not nice.. how can I solve it? 09:31:37 by not using ubuntu while expecting stability 09:32:13 leadnose: which one is good? 09:32:43 I would look at Debian and FreeBSD 09:33:07 or use only LTS ubuntus 09:33:51 I don't see how this addresses his problem. 09:34:24 leadnose: yes, thank you.. I will try them, but maybe later.. because I'm doing exercises so I'm afraid of intalling new system :) 09:34:46 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 09:34:49 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 09:34:49 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 09:34:49 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:35:26 maus: Hello! What is the difference between "c" and "tt c"? 09:35:42 beach: hello sir! :) 09:36:01 -!- beach` is now known as beach 09:36:31 beach: I think "ca" is sometimes as "and" and "tat ca" is "all" 09:37:33 beach: for instance, "ca ban nua ah!?" means "and you too?!" 09:37:55 maus: my understanding is that "tt c" must be used if one talks about every individual in a group, but "c" can be used if one talks about the group as a whole. Is that correct? 09:38:06 maus: I see. 09:39:22 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 09:39:57 beach: I'm sorry.. I've not installed Vietnamese keyboard in Ubuntu yet.. so I miss many accents in the sentence.. I hope you understand :) 09:40:11 Yes, no problme. 09:40:13 lem 09:40:52 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:41:17 maus: Though if you are using Emacs (say 23) you can just say M-x set-input-methodvietnamese-telex or something like that. 09:41:54 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:02 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 09:43:11 (Been supported since 21, iirc) 09:43:37 beach: yes, It has many meanings in different situations.. like "ca nho'm" means "whole group".. 09:43:56 beach: thank you.. I'll try it :) 09:44:00 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 09:47:59 beach: yes, your understanding of the meaning of "ca" and "tat ca" is true. 09:48:44 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:50 maus: Thanks! 09:51:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:52:06 zoskia: Oh, good. I use 23 for other reasons, especially client-side fonts which means I can actually read the Vietnamese that I type :P 09:52:42 beach: I often use this on-line Vietnamese-Vietnamese dictionary: http://vdict.com when I misunderstand the meaning. 09:53:39 beach: Although I'm a Vietnamese, but many times, I misunderstand the meaning of a word :) 09:56:02 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:56:29 beach: maybe it is hard for you to understand Vietnamese-Vietnamese dictionary.. but I hope it is useful :) 09:56:31 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-052-140.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:11 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E5A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:22 Krystof [~csr21@cpc2-dals3-0-0-cust1263.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:58:28 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 10:00:53 beach: have you tried Ubuntu 10.10 yet?! I've just upgrade to that version, and now I have problems with McCLIM, the funtion (labelling (:label "label") pane) draws the label not nice..hix 10:01:44 not nice? 10:02:17 -!- H4ns [~user@p579F8647.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:02:21 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:03:22 hefner: yes, the line also cross over the label. 10:03:43 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-230-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:04:11 hefner: the label is broken. 10:06:31 hefner: and when I start the applications, which uses McCLIM, my desktop screen flash many times.. and Ubuntu comes to the standard desktop (no visual effects). 10:08:17 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:10:29 maus: I have a better dictionary. In fact, I have two. One was made in Germany and it is freely available. The other one is an add-on that I have assembled myself, mainly from using my electronic dictionary. 10:10:54 maus: I haven't tried 10.10 yet. 10:12:23 beach: the one that you made, maybe I saw it when you showed it in the presentation in Vietnam?! 10:12:28 maus: I think I showed you the application I wrote in which I load a vietnamese text and and one or more dictionaries. When I put the pointer over a "word" I get the English translation. That application contains a parser for the dictionary made in germany. 10:12:47 maus: Yes, that's the one. I think I showed it. 10:13:55 beach: yes, I meant that one, It is so nice. That is a great application! It is so convenient :) 10:15:49 beach: the Germany one, is it the one from http://www.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/? 10:17:32 -!- zoskia [zoskia@unaffiliated/zoskia] has left #lisp 10:19:02 beach: I see the definitions of vdict are the same as the Germany's.. maybe vdict uses that dictionary from Germany :) 10:20:38 maus: Yes, Leipzig, but it had many bugs in it. I cleaned it up. 10:20:41 beach: thank you, I've tried to got and installed the libraries.. but it does not work.. our application looks not nice.. but it's no problem :) 10:21:11 I don't think vdict uses that one. I think vdict is proprietary. 10:21:42 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 10:22:38 maus: I had a homework assignment the other day: find as many Vietnamese words that contain a certain subset of the Vietnamese letters. It took me 15 minutes and 2s of execution time to generate 1700 words! 10:22:50 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:23:32 beach: wow.. that's awsome.. ^^ 10:25:11 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 10:26:50 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.108] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:27:40 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A321.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:16 maus: Easy! It's in Lisp! 10:31:15 beach: aha :) 10:33:40 beach: you teacher will be surprised a lot with this result :) 10:33:57 beach: *your 10:39:10 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:21 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 10:50:07 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:50:33 dan` [~user@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:01 -!- dan` is now known as danlentz 10:57:08 programmers give a hard time to teachers to find good assignments :-) 11:03:50 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06:01 pjb: It is strange sometimes to see how different a programmer reacts to certain tasks compared to non-programmers. When I got tired of looking up words in my electronic dictionary over and over again, I wrote an application that lets me load a text and point with the mouse on a word and automatically get the translation in another window. 11:06:33 Yes, we're strange beasts! :-) 11:06:44 pjb: Now it is much faster to type in the text (one day I hope to use OCR), load it into the application, and off I go. 11:07:56 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:07:57 And even if sometimes it's more work or it takes more time to write the program than to do the effective work, it's often worth it, because programming work is more enjoyable than most other (repeatitive) tasks. 11:08:13 Few people can understand that. 11:08:16 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:08:16 I can't agree more! 11:09:06 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:09:15 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:10:00 maus: I'll show her the code! :) 11:11:02 beach: :) 11:13:30 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:16:36 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-139.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: hefner] 11:18:47 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 11:21:29 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.41] has joined #lisp 11:22:19 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:32:28 -!- p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:33:11 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:34:09 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:13 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-139.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:44:32 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:47:50 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:49:00 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:49:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-230-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:50:07 chaslemley [~chaslemle@208.44.170.2] has joined #lisp 11:52:02 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:08 drdo [~user@lab8p6.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 11:57:42 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-143.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:07 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:03:35 d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has joined #lisp 12:05:08 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:06:13 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 12:07:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-244.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:10:55 LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:11:17 -!- drdo [~user@lab8p6.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:15:58 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:17:35 mega1: what happened?! 12:17:40 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:18:39 Xach: resubmitted 12:19:05 mega1: oh, the ranking is only for that particular instance? 12:19:12 yes 12:19:37 mega1: congratulations on your previous success, and good luck with your future success 12:19:39 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:19:43 LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:19:49 thanks 12:21:16 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:21:32 -!- _danb_ [~user@210-84-36-93.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:23:30 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-31.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:25:53 Joreji [~thomas@75-212.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:27:37 Xach: did you almost get a heart attack over our planet wars lisp honour? :) 12:27:44 Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@85.22.93.138] has joined #lisp 12:28:20 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:19 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 12:30:59 aerique: i got an enlarged heart - from PRIDE! 12:31:19 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-9-138.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:31:24 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-9-138.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31:28 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 12:31:31 -!- beach` is now known as beach 12:34:42 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.166.154] has joined #lisp 12:36:04 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:37:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:41:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-212.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:43:27 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:44:58 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:45:14 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-139.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:45:52 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:48:22 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.166.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:48:50 sadly, there is one month left 12:48:53 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.132.100] has joined #lisp 12:49:15 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:42 I can now type half sentences with the keys on the computer. 12:49:57 Those rubber thingies are quite inconvenient to type on 12:51:48 dlowe [~dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 12:51:53 hefner [~hefner@61.90.102.153] has joined #lisp 12:53:17 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:39 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 12:57:07 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 12:57:20 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:57:39 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:57:42 Joreji [~thomas@134.61.75.212] has joined #lisp 13:02:44 zoskia [zoskia@unaffiliated/zoskia] has joined #lisp 13:03:23 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:52 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:06:07 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:06:36 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:54 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:08:30 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 13:08:30 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 13:10:04 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ptqzvzljfwzlsqjy] has left #lisp 13:10:17 -!- vsync_ [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:12:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:13:09 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 13:14:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@134.61.75.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:16:25 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:17:59 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:19:36 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:31 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ikwrsagqjcaieyyc] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:22:38 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 13:23:08 vsync_ [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 13:23:34 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.132.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:27:39 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 13:27:48 Bronsa [~bronsa@host254-177-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:28:39 -!- LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:32:34 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:33:29 -!- gz_ [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz_] 13:33:30 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz_] 13:37:01 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:43 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:45:00 rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-221-165-176.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:44 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:46:16 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:43 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:51:13 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 13:56:01 -!- jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:38 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host254-177-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:59:10 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 14:00:28 hypercube31 [~hypercube@66.90.18.146] has joined #lisp 14:01:27 Bronsa [~bronsa@host254-177-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:01:35 powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:04 sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:04 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441951.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 14:02:27 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:02:27 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:03:56 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.50.119] has joined #lisp 14:04:28 Has anyone used cl+ssl on sbcl and openbsd successfully yet? 14:07:10 sepi: not on openbsd. works fine on linux 14:07:13 sepi: I haven't heard about anyone trying. 14:07:19 sepi: Do you have some trouble? Where does it fail? 14:11:35 Xach: yeah I have trouble. I'll paste the error messages... 14:13:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:13:19 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:19 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:54 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 14:17:12 Xach: http://pastie.org/1250129 14:17:34 also paste.lisp.org is down :/ 14:19:48 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-31.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:21:27 <_8david`> does "ldd /usr/lib/libssl.so" shed any light on this? 14:22:17 AndIrc [~android@rrcs-70-63-182-98.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:43 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:22:53 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 14:23:15 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:21 hey 14:23:45 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:50 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:57 -!- AndIrc is now known as beardedoctopus 14:24:33 or better, nm -D /usr/lib/libssl.so 14:24:46 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@119.192.12.119] has joined #lisp 14:24:47 does any of these symbols appear there 14:26:22 <_8david`> what's weird is that, AFAICT, these warnings aren't written by SBCL, they are low-level linker errors. So presumably the call to dlopen alone is sufficient to get them. 14:28:21 -rdynamic can produce that kind of problem, iirc. 14:29:02 <_8david`> perhaps libcrypto needs to be loaded explicitly before libssl? 14:29:23 stassats`: yes they do with a U infront of them 14:29:49 "U" The symbol is undefined. 14:30:14 what does that mean, i don't know 14:30:16 <_8david`> they should show up for libcrypto with a T 14:30:23 just read that in the manfile :) 14:30:58 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:31:56 _8david`: they do 14:32:04 yeah, the same on linux 14:32:28 <_8david`> does it help to do a (cffi:load-foreign-library "libcrypto") before attempting to load cl+ssl? 14:32:35 dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:47 debugger invoked on a CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY-ERROR: Unable to load foreign library (LIBRARY-813). Error opening shared object "libcrypto": File not found. 14:34:22 try with .so 14:34:55 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 14:35:04 I'm quite new to lisp is it possible to compile frozen binaries from lisp or other ways of obfuscating code? 14:35:36 it's possible to compile lisp to machine code, is that what you're asking? 14:35:37 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:35:41 beardedoctopus: yes. 14:36:31 man dlopen 14:36:31 http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man3/dlopen.3.html 14:36:46 sweet for windows platforms too? 14:36:57 for any platform 14:37:19 beardedoctopus: yes. 14:37:31 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:37:37 you also need to make sure that your implementation doesn't store code for debugging purposes 14:37:39 that is grand sorry for the bad typing skills. I'm on a phone. 14:37:45 *Krystof* is sad that binary compilation is used as a mechanism for code obfuscation 14:37:46 stassats`: that did it :) 14:38:03 *Xach* is on a boat 14:38:34 sepi: now to figure out why it doesn't load it automatically 14:38:57 probably, a ticket should be opened on launchpad 14:40:03 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 14:40:27 stassats`: for sbcl or cffi? 14:40:33 for sbcl 14:42:09 -!- beardedoctopus [~android@rrcs-70-63-182-98.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: AndroidIrc Disconnecting] 14:42:23 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host254-177-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:43:07 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 14:46:32 I can load libssl fine on my system here 14:46:42 so it's not just "sbcl utterly fails to load it". 14:46:48 Krystof: is it openbsd? 14:46:52 uh, no 14:47:21 but one thing to check is that it really is sbcl, and that an equivalent C program dlopen()ing libssl doesn't fail 14:47:23 i can load it fine on linux too 14:47:36 -!- d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has left #lisp 14:47:36 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:48:22 <_8david`> sepi: "that did it" meaning that you've been able to cl+ssl now? 14:48:35 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu002.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:48:41 benny` [~benny@i577A215C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:48:46 _8david`: yeah 14:49:54 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:53:21 <_8david`> can you also try http://www.lichteblau.com/tmp/libcrypto.diff for me? 14:54:19 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.50.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:54:19 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc2-dals3-0-0-cust1263.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:54:55 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:56:07 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:57:07 -!- benny [~benny@i577A215C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:57:37 -!- hefner [~hefner@61.90.102.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:58:01 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-102-153.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:00:14 <_8david`> instructions would be: download the file and apply it using "patch -p0 _8david`: cl+ssl now successfully loads 15:02:14 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 15:02:41 Wakko10Warner [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/wakko9warner] has joined #lisp 15:02:42 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.50.119] has joined #lisp 15:03:05 is this a fix or just a workaround 15:03:11 irc://wakko.irc.yourlifegroup.org/lisp <-- a new IRC server dedicated to hacking using LISP. 15:03:35 Wakko10Warner: Go away. 15:03:41 why 15:03:42 i would bet that the dlopen in c would fail just as it does on sbcl without loading libcrypto on freebsd, because it reminds me the case of (older?) solaris where you had to -lnsl along with -lsocket (instead of just -lsocket) 15:04:05 <_8david`> sepi: It's a fix (I'm not entirely certain whether it works on Windows and Darwin though). 15:04:08 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.33] has joined #lisp 15:04:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.33] has quit [Changing host] 15:04:12 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:04:33 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:04:38 -!- Wakko10Warner [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/wakko9warner] has left #lisp 15:05:54 benny [~benny@i577A8834.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:33 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 15:06:33 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 15:06:33 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 15:07:53 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.0.240] has joined #lisp 15:09:13 Bronsa [~bronsa@host254-177-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:09:53 I'd like to help on this issue but I know nothing on shared librarys... 15:11:08 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:34 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:38 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:13:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:14:57 urandom__ [~user@p548A794A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:03 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:16:21 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@85.22.93.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:18:29 sepi: there's not much to know. try searching for a client.c on google and gcc client.c -o client -lsocket and see if it fails 15:18:44 client.c == c code with #include and a main() 15:19:12 (err, damn) s/socket/ssl, s/client.c/ssh.c? 15:19:23 *pmd* needs caffeine again 15:19:39 -!- zvrba [~zvrba@anakin.ifi.uio.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20:56 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:24:01 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:09 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:26:07 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:27:38 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:33:59 pmd: nice, I tried this and as suspected, it won't compile unless I add -lcrypto 15:34:38 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host254-177-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:38:45 silenius [~silenus@rrcs-64-183-24-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:41 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:38 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:43:12 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:43:45 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050065128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:44:08 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:45:28 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.50.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:45:46 sepi: that means Krystof was right about it not being an sbcl issue, but an openbsd "feature" 15:45:48 so, cl+ssl should have a conditional that loads libcrypto when under openbsd 15:46:02 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.50.119] has joined #lisp 15:48:05 ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-11-182.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:09 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:49:16 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:47 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.41] has joined #lisp 15:51:25 Bronsa [~bronsa@host254-177-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:53:11 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:53:13 sepi: paste the output of ldd /usr/lib/libssl.so 15:54:40 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:55:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:55:32 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:52 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 15:57:43 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:58:13 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:58:14 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:00:21 <_8david`> I wouldn't expect it to hurt to load libcrypto explicitly on non-OpenBSD, so my diff should be OK in any case. 16:01:14 <_8david`> The only reason I'm uncertain about this is that Windows and Darwin are already special cases (.dylib needed on Darwin, libeay32.dll on Windows). 16:02:35 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:02:36 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:03:43 aifnord [~aifnord@79-133-4-112.bredband.aland.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:27 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:35 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:09:13 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 16:11:42 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host254-177-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:12:57 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-11-182.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:12:58 _ace4016_ [~ace4016@adsl-32-11-182.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:03 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 16:17:54 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:19:22 -!- maus [~maus@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Bye bye!] 16:20:33 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:23:40 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-11-182.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:23:53 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:28 ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-11-182.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:28 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:26:46 fe[nl]ix: /usr/lib/libssl.so: Start End Type Open Ref GrpRef Name 000000020b5dc000 000000020ba2a000 dlib 1 0 0 /usr/lib/libssl.so.15.1 16:27:57 sepi: is that all ? 16:28:04 yeah 16:28:23 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-11-182.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:29:27 sepi: it should also print a list of libraries linked to it 16:29:35 how do I tell common lisp to export every symbol defined by a package? 16:30:07 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu002.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:30:35 something like: (loop for s being each symbol in *package* do (export s)) 16:30:42 rukowen [~thehien@123.20.11.28] has joined #lisp 16:31:02 You might think on whether you *really* want to do that, though 16:31:03 rntz: you probably don't want to do that. 16:31:21 rntz: that will export all interned symbols. 16:31:39 wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d814aed.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:43 hiho 16:31:44 ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-11-182.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:45 fe[nl]ix: it doesn't 16:32:11 is there a portable way to get the modification date of a file/directory? 16:32:32 sykopomp: foom: I said all symbols (intuitively speaking) defined by a package, not all the symbols interned in it... 16:32:35 also file size? 16:33:11 rntz: you could modify that loop to find only those symbols with a symbol-function or symbol-value 16:33:13 rntz: you can't define symbols 16:33:19 you can only intern them 16:33:21 maybe that'd do what you like 16:33:40 also, (loop for s being each present-symbol in *package* do (export s)) would be better in that case 16:34:03 foom: classes, catch/throw tags, etc, would not be exported with that method. 16:34:23 sykopomp: yea, sure, intuition doesn't always work exactly right. :) 16:34:25 slotnames either. 16:34:34 stassats`: ah, so common lisp has no notion of the distinction between "oh, I defined this symbol via some (def...)-equivalent form" and "oh, I happened to mention this symbol in this package"? that's... unfortunate. 16:34:47 sykopomp: but you can get clever with that 16:35:06 rntz: symbols and packages are pretty much made of unfortunate, yes. 16:35:08 stassats`: getting clever is sometimes a quick way to shoot yourself in the foot. 16:35:16 what is the distinction between (... being each present-symbol ...) and (... being each symbol ...)? 16:35:18 eh. CL's package system is what it is. 16:35:30 Don't fight it, just learn to use it. 16:35:33 rntz: present-symbol doesn't include inherited symbols 16:35:37 ah. 16:35:50 it lets you do some pretty neat things that other namespacing systems don't allow. 16:35:52 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:46 exporting by hand is easy, especially with C-c x and M-x slime-export-class 16:39:34 carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.177] has joined #lisp 16:39:55 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.166] has joined #lisp 16:39:57 I honestly haven't had any problems manually exporting symbols in defpackage. 16:40:13 I mean, it's not the most fun task ever, but it's not like it takes me longer than a few minutes. 16:40:26 I do wish I could have more granularity, though. 16:40:30 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.166] has left #lisp 16:40:47 yeah, with slime inserting them into defpackage automatically 16:41:13 stassats`: that's cool. SLIME keeps getting features I've never heard about :P 16:41:30 sykopomp: C-c x is an old feature 16:41:32 I keep hearing about these fancy features, rather. 16:41:44 slime-export-class is somewhat new 16:42:00 stassats`: does that just add the classname to defpackage? 16:42:13 sykopomp: "Export acessors, constructors, etc. associated with a structure or a class" 16:42:23 i guess i should make it optionally export slot-names 16:42:30 oh shiny. 16:42:46 stassats`: possibly even prevent auto-export of %symbols. 16:45:25 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:45:44 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 16:45:51 and there is currently no slime-unexport-class, while there is C-u C-c x 16:48:11 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:52:05 _8david`: Will you send a patch to the cl+ssl devs? 16:53:43 sepi: _8david` is one of them 16:55:26 stassats`: great :) 16:55:52 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:57:02 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@119.192.12.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:13 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:01:33 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:27 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:06:55 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:06:58 tsuru`` [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:13 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 17:08:07 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.0.240] has quit [Quit: Go to sleep] 17:08:09 -!- rukowen [~thehien@123.20.11.28] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:56 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:13:11 _8david`: ping 17:15:26 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:17:44 How do I get the size of a file? 17:18:12 ls 17:18:17 clhs file-length 17:18:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_l.htm 17:18:42 kay thx 17:19:07 definitely have to open the file right? 17:19:31 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:20:34 wakeup: yes 17:21:22 C-c x has no command for me... Do I need to enable a contrib or something? I have a "relatively recent" version of SLIME. 17:21:38 Hexstream: that's slime-package-fu 17:21:44 but it's included in slime-fancy 17:21:49 (Hum. A convenience "slime-version") emacs function would be nice. 17:22:27 stassats`: Oh ok. Thanks. 17:22:32 Hexstream: M-x slime-changelog-date 17:22:46 slime has no version 17:23:08 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:26:05 yet? 17:27:05 Maybe the developers like their chaotic development style... 17:31:12 Is anyone interested in an stl reading library? 17:31:17 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:31:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:31:35 sepi: what does stl mean in that context? 17:34:44 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:34:48 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-240-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:35:11 Xach: the 3d format 17:35:48 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-11-182.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 17:35:53 sepi: I am interested! 17:38:02 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:39:28 I've written the reading part for a 3d printing application 17:41:04 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d814aed.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 17:41:17 excellent 17:41:48 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:43:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:43:27 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:54 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:47:46 Xach: I'll publish my git repo and let you know the url 17:53:12 republican_devil [~g@pool101.bizrate.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:02 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.79] has joined #lisp 17:56:49 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-208.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:58:31 sepi: very very interested 17:58:42 sepi: i've been working on dxf stuff :D 17:59:17 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:30 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 18:00:49 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:00:53 sepi: you read stl? neat! 18:00:57 sepi: what are you doing with it? 18:01:27 (I was considering making a slicing / toolpath generation thing once) (: 18:01:35 srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 18:06:25 ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-11-182.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:37 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-178-106.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:25 gz_ [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:04 -!- tsuru`` is now known as tsuru 18:15:05 -!- johanbev [~johanbev@44.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:15:09 johanbev [~johanbev@44.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:43 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.50.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:16:50 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:17:19 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-96-13.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:18:20 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:15 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:28:29 -!- gz_ [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:29:07 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:46 gigamonkey: you around? 18:32:44 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:32:55 once one gets the hang of lisp, it it convenient to use it for moving files and making reports on unix filesystem a la bash? 18:33:21 I use it to drive shell scripts 18:33:54 how many more years do you need, gavino? 18:34:18 and why didn't you go to the ILC in reno? it's practically your back yard. 18:34:26 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:34:54 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:58 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:36:26 I have issues 18:36:35 <_8david`> fe[nl]ix: hi 18:37:37 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:13 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:41:11 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:42:11 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 18:42:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 18:42:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:42:14 antifuchs: I am considering doing the same 18:42:34 sepi: you would be far better qualified for it than me, too, no doubt (-: 18:42:48 (I don't have much experience with 3d at all) (: 18:42:51 antifuchs: why? 18:42:55 me neither 18:42:59 ah (: 18:43:07 but then, you already understand the stl file format (-: 18:43:13 which is a plus, I guess (: 18:43:13 hehe 18:43:36 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:45:28 jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has joined #lisp 18:45:33 argh. cl-pdf hasn't been updated in over a year, and then last week's update breaks it on sbcl. 18:45:41 *Xach* starts spamming some emails around 18:47:29 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:48:21 wonders if teepeedee2 would be hard to make work on freebsd 18:51:01 Xach: antifuchs: derrida: http://gitorious.org/meshc/cl-stl 18:52:04 i've never tryied that one, but it is trivial to hook the libevent-http, which will give you one of the most robust webservers you can play with in CL. :D 18:52:44 thanks! 18:55:00 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:55:20 aintme [~Miranda@171.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:55:47 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 18:56:39 tama [~tama@ip65-46-142-190.z142-46-65.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:16 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:31 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-98-182.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:13 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-11-182.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 19:10:07 phrixos [~Phrixos@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has joined #lisp 19:10:37 any comments on coding styles and patches are welcome. 19:11:30 sepi: don't check in fasls :) 19:11:47 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:12:18 hahaha 19:12:20 sepi: what's your email address? or should I just paste 'em? 19:12:28 *p_l|uni* recalls that ASDF2 had a FASL checked in for some time, I htink 19:12:34 *Xach* is seeing about 1 comment per form 19:12:47 lol. whoops! I've done that too :) 19:14:43 sepi: for example, (if t nil) is better done just . but EQUALP works just fine on structures. 19:20:35 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 19:20:35 -!- rme [rme@clozure-F18DE035.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 19:21:59 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:22:48 -!- manby-ace [~user@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:48 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.79] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:51 manby-ace [~user@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:22:51 vu3rdd` [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.79] has joined #lisp 19:22:58 -!- vu3rdd` [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:16 -!- mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:23:39 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:23:48 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 19:23:55 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:56 davidbe [~user@91.86.150.5] has joined #lisp 19:25:17 I'm new to Common Lisp and I'm trying to grasp asdf. I'm wondering, the hello-lisp example on cliki (http://www.cliki.net/hello-lisp), is it still up-to-date (with asdf 2.0)? sbcl gives errors... 19:25:58 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:26:17 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-2E21CFB1.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:26:24 davidbe: hmm, i can load it fine with the latest asdf 2. what error do you get? 19:26:31 gz__ [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:06 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.180.118] has joined #lisp 19:28:06 Xach: I get "The function HELLO is undefined", 19:28:18 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441951.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:28:32 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:48 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:29:46 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:11 davidbe: That suggests to me that you did not load it, or if you loaded it, you are not using the same HELLO that is defined in the project. 19:30:30 davidbe: when you write HELLO with no package qualification, you need to make sure the value of *PACKAGE* is appropriate. 19:30:41 one way to do that is (in-package hello-lisp) 19:31:06 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:31:11 or you could use (hello-lisp:hello) to explicitly provide a package for the symbol. 19:31:44 Xach: I pasted output: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115926 19:32:16 Xach: I unpacked the tarball from cliki. As a newbie, I expect it to run :) 19:32:49 minion: tell davidbe about pcl 19:32:51 davidbe: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:33:10 davidbe: the chapter on packages and symbols specifically :) 19:33:19 davidbe: Ok, yes, when you wrote (hello), that reads as (cl-user:hello), and cl-user:hello does not name the function you actually want to call. 19:33:26 minion: Thanks, started reading the book and looked into the chapter. 19:33:26 you're welcome 19:33:46 davidbe: the function is named hello-lisp:hello, so you could do (hello-lisp:hello) instead, or any number of similar things to reference the right name. 19:33:56 -!- gz__ [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:34:03 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:34 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:58 speaking of PCL, the chapter on parsing binary structures, Peter uses (eql ..) methods to match on the symbol defining the type.. is there a reason why he doesn't just match on the type of symbol right away? 19:35:02 -!- silenius [~silenus@rrcs-64-183-24-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:35:39 Xach: thanks, it worked and it clears things up! I'll reread PCL chapter on it and the asdf manual. 19:35:56 -!- rotty_ is now known as rotty 19:38:44 _8david`: do you have an OSX machine ? 19:39:16 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:40:00 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:14 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:41:04 -!- davidbe [~user@91.86.150.5] has left #lisp 19:42:35 yan_: I'm not quite sure what you're asking. the type of a symbol is always SYMBOL, and symbols can be used to name many things, not just types. 19:43:26 btw any comments on coding styles and patches for cl-stl are welcome. 19:43:32 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 19:44:25 sepi: I have so many comments! Where should I send them? 19:44:55 drewc: hm i asked that question in quite a convoluted way.. basically the defmethods in the first part of the chapter are (defmethod read-value ((arg (eql 'type)) ..), why not just define it as (defmethod read-value ((arg type)) .. ) and have the first arg be the actual value you're reading vs a symbol describing the type 19:44:59 gonzojive [~red@171.66.82.154] has joined #lisp 19:45:27 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:45:27 Xach: http://gitorious.org/~sepi 19:45:48 Xach: my email address is there 19:46:06 or just msg in irc 19:47:27 ok 19:48:25 yan_: what class is 42? 19:49:30 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441951.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod_] 19:49:36 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 19:50:13 yan_: first things first: generic functions dispatch on class, not on type. This isn't really important here, but it's a key distinction. Now, when you say 'the actual value you're reading' do you mean 'why don't the generic functions take an instance of a class rather than a symbol naming the class to be instanciated'? 19:50:38 yikes, instantiated 19:50:59 -!- peterhil is now known as peterhil` 19:51:25 -!- peterhil` is now known as peterhil 19:51:37 -!- peterhil is now known as peterhil` 19:51:58 -!- peterhil` is now known as peterhil 19:58:03 aDuck [~aduck@bl14-141-108.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:59:36 drewc: i guess so, but now thinking about it, they have no instance yet, they have to make one. so there's nothing to pass to them.. 20:00:13 is that accurate? write-value functions can dispatch on class (and not type. can you point to docs about the distinction btwn class&type?) however 20:01:57 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:02:39 yeah, i think you are seeing it correctly. Also, imagine you'd like a (read-value 'string ...) or a (read-value 'list) 20:02:43 clhs 4 20:02:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_.htm 20:02:46 yan_: ^ 20:03:00 -!- aintme [~Miranda@171.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 20:04:11 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:04:50 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-96-13.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:07:05 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:31 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:04 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-216-118.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:09:50 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-2E21CFB1.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gz] 20:13:25 konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 20:15:05 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:15:16 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:19:17 -!- aifnord [~aifnord@79-133-4-112.bredband.aland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:20:14 -!- konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has left #lisp 20:21:40 konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 20:23:38 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:31:13 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:31:16 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 20:32:49 -!- chaslemley [~chaslemle@208.44.170.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:29 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:58 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:11 peddie [~peddie@c-67-160-245-238.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:11 -!- peddie [~peddie@c-67-160-245-238.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:39:41 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 20:40:23 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050065128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:40:42 So there are about 20 test frameworks for cl listed on cliki. Which one would you suggest? 20:40:47 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:40:50 fpletz [~fpletz@2001:7f0:3003:42:ccc:acab:ed:23] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 sepi: i suggest writing correct code upfront 20:41:21 rt is simple and good 20:41:50 sepi: Here's a survey from 2007: http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html 20:41:51 stassats`: ahrhhrhrh 20:42:20 I've been using FiveAM and it's ok, but I haven't tried any others. I see it used a lot. 20:42:34 I like using fiveam/Eos. 20:45:00 stassats`: I don't like tdd but for some things like e.g. parsing some file format autmated testing is really nice 20:45:16 manby-ace_ [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:45:43 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has left #lisp 20:45:53 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has quit [Quit: TheEnd2012] 20:53:01 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:05 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:53:21 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:23 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:53:41 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:42 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:53:47 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:54:01 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:02 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:54:21 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:22 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:54:24 gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 20:55:50 -!- tama [~tama@ip65-46-142-190.z142-46-65.customer.algx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:55:59 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:56:35 meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-054-193.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:50 jeti [~user@p548EA5D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:08 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-052-140.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:15 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-176-44-192.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:51 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-31.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:00:45 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:52 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:10:19 tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:78:b55:9c9e:4e4f] has joined #lisp 21:12:07 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.82.154] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 21:14:07 Quadrescence [~Quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:11 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:14:12 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:14:18 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.180.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21:48 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:22:15 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:23:45 sepi: John Maraist's paper on NST at ILC 2010 has a survey of testing frameworks. 21:25:17 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:25:53 rpg: heya 21:26:07 rpg: Do you think there'll be a meeting in November? 21:27:23 sykopomp: I was going to send out emails about this. We have a big family event coming up in January, so I really can't curate TC-lispers for a while. I mean, I can work on organizational support, but I can't sustain my previous level of effort till February. 21:28:04 I could talk a little about ILC, but I can't be the one who nags everyone for a while. 21:28:19 rpg: ahh, I'll see if I find it. meanwhile I'm trying out lisp-unit :) 21:28:57 rpg: hearing about ILC would definitely be exciting. It's too bad that it takes so much effort to put the meetings together. 21:29:18 sepi: the paper's available here: http://www.sift.info/node/184 21:29:58 sykopomp: I think it's just that people aren't used to talking in front of groups. So it's hard to get volunteers. 21:30:43 weee.. LW6.0 PED is out... 21:30:51 rpg: well, it's not like we're in Boston, where there's lispers galore with all sorts of crazy projects. 21:30:51 rpg: that is as long as they are sober 21:32:41 timack [~tim@hlfx55-2b-37.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 21:34:09 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-176-44-192.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:34:30 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:54 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-176-44-192.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:59 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:37:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-244.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:31 LW6 ped locked up pretty hard on me when I tried it earlier. 21:37:44 they don't make an x8664 package available. 21:40:17 sykopomp: I think it's just a matter of getting over the hump and realizing that people would like to hear about your hack (especially if it's something they can use). 21:40:35 -!- phrixos [~Phrixos@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 21:42:39 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 21:42:43 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-123.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:45:14 oh man 21:45:54 the api of the asdf2 is totally undigestible for me 21:46:08 especially in combination with distro behaviour 21:47:02 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-176-44-192.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:47:28 RyanP [~Ryan@pool-71-99-89-96.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:23 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-57-38.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:48:50 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-104-253.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:48:58 -!- RyanP [~Ryan@pool-71-99-89-96.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 21:52:10 homie: is it clashing with common-lisp-controller? 21:52:27 rpg: no i don't have the common-lisp-controller at all 21:52:39 your complaint is a little opaque. 21:52:47 rpg: afaik my things get cached in .cache on my home path 21:53:04 Yes, but what does that have to do with the API? 21:53:18 rpg: but i fail to see where the xdg api specifies it for debian that way 21:53:48 ... What does xdg have to do with asdf2? 21:53:49 rpg: i look also in /etc/xdg and tried to search for /etc/common-lisp too but i don't have a /etc/common-lisp dir 21:54:12 homie: I think this is actually somewhat explained in the manual. 21:54:35 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:54:36 Why would you expect your personal compilations (as opposed to, say, root's) to go into /etc ? 21:55:08 homie: what exactly are you complaining about ? 21:55:37 $XDG_CONFIG_DIRS/common-lisp/source-registry.conf i don't see that nowhere too for my asdf2 system, as quicklisp is on the go updateing to the asdf2 version 21:57:33 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 21:57:41 homie: i am not sure asdf is responsible for the fasl files being cached in .cache 21:58:42 Note that your Operating System distribution or your system administrator may already have configured translations for you. In absence of any configuration, the default is to redirect everything under an implementation-dependent subdirectory of ~/.cache/common-lisp/ 21:58:47 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:58:55 now i see 21:59:16 kenanb`: Actually, yes, I believe it is ASDF 2 that's doing this. It's the new ASDF-OUTPUT-LOCATIONS. 22:00:08 hmm, ok then, i don't know much about asdf2 22:00:29 homie: I have never bothered to figure out how to go back to the old default behavior of dropping the fasls next to the source files. But if you know how, I'll see it gets into the manual's FAQ! 22:01:01 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:12 gonzojive [~red@171.66.75.214] has joined #lisp 22:03:00 rpg: IIRC, the key was to turn off output translation entirely. 22:03:13 so if quicklisp is gonna support asfd2 i don't know why it does not put it's own sources dir there for quicklisp i mean in ~/.local/share/common-lisp/source/ rather than in the quicklisp dir itself 22:03:33 that's the deafult dir for asdf2 22:03:54 where it expects common-lisp software to be deposited 22:03:54 homie: that's a matter for you to take up with Xach. 22:04:00 yep 22:04:09 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:25 That is a gross and uncouth pathname. Why make things so painful? 22:04:33 does lw6 personal still not load init files? 22:04:50 That directory actually seems nutty to me. It seems like a mix between a global-to-the-system path (/share/common-lisp...) and a personal pathname (~). 22:05:29 Either ~/.cache/.... or /etc/common-lisp/... or /usr/share/common-lisp... or something would make sense, but what would /share mean in my homedir? 22:05:41 yet the ~ part is ok as a default 22:05:50 rpg: that's a semi-standard location 22:05:54 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-176-44-192.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:07 rpg: it's like configure --prefix ~/.local 22:06:33 foom: ah. I'm too old school for that stuff. I hate all these directories that I have to ls -a to see... 22:06:56 rpg: I hate how everything dumps its configs directly into ~/ 22:07:05 if they all used ~/.local/etc/ that'd be much nicer 22:08:09 foom: I'm used to it (e.g., ~/.emacs, ~/.tcshrc, etc. etc.). For all it's yuckiness, it's what I know. I can't imagine any benefit that would pay me back for the hours lost changing it. 22:08:15 indeed so. 22:08:25 but it still bugs me 22:08:31 I still remember the horror of trying to figure out where the hell my KDE was actually getting its effing settings from.... 22:09:05 *rpg* is going to go get a cold beer and try to recover from the horror of thinking about interacting KDE, emacs and X settings.... 22:09:17 maybe a martini will be necessary... 22:09:32 On OSX, apps are supposed to use ~/Library/Preferences/ which is a much saner location overall. 22:09:52 but even they didn't try to change the traditional unix utilities to use that instead of ~/.whatever 22:10:25 gotta go. might be able to help with ASDF 2 things tomorrow... 22:11:19 the one problem with the new ASDF .cache locations, imo, is that it makes it harder to clean up after yourself. It was easier with the fasls under the source tree. 22:11:55 mock the maintainer then lol 22:12:06 But ASDF needs a clean-op /anyway/. working on it... 22:12:07 bye. 22:12:11 i think it is the opposite 22:13:07 i find it harder to have sources and compiled files in the same dir when try to do something with the files 22:14:10 jep, it's ambigous in cases where you say want to load a package just by keyword 22:14:27 what will be looked up the fasl or the .lisp file ? 22:14:28 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.166] has joined #lisp 22:14:32 fasl 22:14:45 if there is a fasl version, it gets loaded automatically 22:14:51 bah 22:15:04 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:29 so i have to change all my asdf load syntax to not use :keyswords then 22:15:55 na no that won't change anything lol 22:16:11 i have to load all them just by filename then 22:16:16 why would you do that 22:16:45 I would assume all sane implementations only load the fasl if it's newer than the corresponding source file. 22:18:20 -!- meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-054-193.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:18:21 d-c [~DC@118.229.96.40] has joined #lisp 22:19:49 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:23:07 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:23:32 phrixos [~Phrixos@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:23:59 homie: asdf load system doesn't read system information from .lisp files it uses the .asd files, so i don't think you have that kind of an option 22:24:27 quodlibetor [~user@ool-18baa8f1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:27 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.75.214] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 22:25:29 -!- manby-ace_ [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: manby-ace_] 22:25:41 it matters when you load files not asdf systems 22:28:12 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-216-118.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:29:18 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-176-44-192.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:29:18 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:31:36 LiamBRT2 [~liambrt@92.16.247.214] has joined #lisp 22:35:56 -!- dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:36:00 -!- LiamBRT2 [~liambrt@92.16.247.214] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 22:36:49 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A794A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:41 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:56 one less annoyance in lw personal: no initial dead trema/umlaut 22:41:56 -!- jeti [~user@p548EA5D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:42:46 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.90] has joined #lisp 22:43:30 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-31.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:46:30 gonzojive [~red@171.66.75.214] has joined #lisp 22:46:45 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-73.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:46 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-73.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:26 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:53:00 is there some way to make one symbol an alias for another, or to import a symbol from another package but rename it? 22:53:13 (eg import foo::bar as quux in the package xyzzy) 22:53:52 rntz: no really. 22:54:16 rntz: not really, a symbol can have only one name, that's part of what a symbol is. What are you trying to achieve? 22:54:30 If you want to use two names for a function, you can have two symbols refering to it: (setf (symbol-function 'alias) (symbol-function 'original)) 22:54:45 so you can call (alias ....) instead of (original ...). 22:55:03 For variables, you can use symbol macros. 22:55:12 (define-symbol-macro alias original) 22:55:26 But for all other usages of symbols, there's no way. 22:55:31 there is no built-in symbol indirection, but there are symbol-macros, which are not expanded if used as a function, i.e. the car of a form 22:55:36 -!- sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:37 (with the caveat that one shouldn't go renaming/aliasing things willy-nilly just because one can) 22:55:49 pjb: hm, well, the function-value version satisfies my needs 22:56:12 and it doesn't work on already compiled code, so no 22:56:26 rntz: so you could define a defalias macro that would copy the symbol-function and define a symbol-macro. 22:57:01 pjb: what happens when the symbol appears quoted? is it expanded? 22:57:14 This is another use. See above. 22:57:35 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:48 or one could use the original names for the functions and call them in a function names whatever one wants ... 22:58:07 *drewc* hates the idea of defalias and the like :) 22:58:31 Sometimes (defun alias (arg) (original arg)) is all that is neede. 22:58:33 +d 22:58:34 drewc: why ? 22:59:40 google is not telling me -- what is #' short for? 23:00:27 fe[nl]ix: well, debugging for one, and the obfuscation from renaming _without an excellent reason_. 23:00:31 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:24 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.177] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:01:59 clhs #' 23:01:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 23:02:48 ohh excellent - thanks =) 23:04:19 sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has joined #lisp 23:04:26 fe[nl]ix: in general the 'lisp code can be obfuscated quite enough even without defalias, thank you very much' argument, basically. 23:04:39 Genosh [~Genosh@193.153.54.47] has joined #lisp 23:04:39 drewc: improve the debugger, then 23:05:11 abugosh [~Adium@12.167.132.226] has joined #lisp 23:07:25 fe[nl]ix: why? for a feature i don't like? :P 23:09:02 (defun foo () (bar)) works well enough for me, and i can inline bar if i care. The debugger will handle it perfectly fine, and i get my nice explicit code. 23:09:30 Is there a way to extend equal for clos objects? 23:09:35 but again, renaming operations is something i don't think should be done without excellent cause. 23:09:44 sepi: no 23:10:00 sepi: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 23:13:41 what's the common pattern then? just define a class-equal function for every class one creates? 23:14:10 i very rarely have the need to compare instances slot-by-slot. 23:14:42 -!- quodlibetor [~user@ool-18baa8f1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:32 so, foo-equal doesn't really come up often, it's usually something more specific 23:15:44 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.75.214] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 23:15:54 (instances-similar-in-some-specific-way-p a b) 23:17:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:18:36 how am I supposed to write polymorphic code that uses equality then? 23:19:04 sepi: use hungarian notation 23:19:38 sepi: parameterize the equality predicate. 23:19:59 sometimes you want EQL, other times EQUAL. 23:20:12 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:20:38 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-32-82-254-21-5.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:20:54 pkhuong_: how do you mean "parametrize the equality predicate"? 23:21:33 if you want your code to be polymorphic on the equality predicate, it too must be an argument. 23:23:11 except if the type system could figure out the implementation on its own... 23:23:40 the choice of the implemetation 23:23:45 sepi: no, because there is no one way to compare values. 23:23:57 again, EQL vs EQUAL. 23:24:22 pkhuong_: I mean if you implented the equal method (if it was a method) for your type 23:24:34 and what if I wanted EQL? 23:24:39 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:24:49 pkhuong_: then just use eql 23:25:14 but I can't because your code always uses your hypothetical generic EQUAL. 23:25:23 it would just be nice to have a generic "equivalence" predicate that is user definable 23:25:26 the way you want data to be compared depends as much on the context as on the data being compared. 23:26:11 ok, I see, this is just a philosophical debate 23:27:35 no. The point is that there's no default generic equality predicate because one will never be enough; the only way I can see of making that work would be with a context argument (or implicitly, like context-oriented programming). 23:28:45 both with a context or with multiple predicates, you will want to let the user specify the context or the predicate most of the time. 23:29:26 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-123.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:30:25 pkhuong_: from practical experience I can tell that there is very often an equality condition that is used in most cases. for everything elese one can still use some other predicate 23:31:49 sepi: right, so you still have to specify the predicate. You can still write a generic comparator that does what you want, but you'll let users specify which predicate they want either way. 23:31:55 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-123.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 23:32:10 sepi: practical experience in Common Lisp? 23:32:16 I'll just have to embrace the "quirks" and historically grown stangenesses of cl 23:32:28 drewc: no, in other languages 23:33:11 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-25-82-254-156-70.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:12 pkhuong_: Off course you have to impement the predicate, but it would be nice to have a generic way to compare objects. It will work in most cases 23:34:15 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:34:39 sepi: write how *you* expect that to behave; the MOP makes it easy. 23:34:58 pkhuong_: I was just expecting cl to ship it 23:35:21 you expected CL to ship with your expectations? 23:36:10 not so much anymore :) 23:36:56 READ-ASCII: (MAKE-VECTOR-3 :X 0.0 :Y 0.0 :Z -1.0) failed: 23:36:56 Expected #S(VECTOR-3 :X 0.0 :Y 0.0 :Z -1.0) 23:36:56 but saw #S(VECTOR-3 :X 0.0 :Y 0.0 :Z -1.0) 23:36:58 READ-ASCII: 1 assertions passed, 1 failed. 23:37:03 there are tons of issues... for instance, should two arrays with the same elements, but with different upgraded element types be considered equivalent? 23:37:48 sepi: you should try and see CL on its own terms rather than assuming the way the languages you know do things is the only/right way to do things, you might learn a better way, or at least understand the trade-offs better :) 23:38:01 yikes, i can't even parse that 23:38:05 *drewc* needs coffee 23:38:05 Should numbers be compared mathematically (=), or with EQL? 23:38:29 pkhuong_: not to mention conses 23:38:37 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:39:46 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:40:16 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:16 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 23:40:16 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 23:40:24 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:40:44 drewc: what are the tradeoff for equal then? 23:40:53 -!- srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:56 drewc: what would happen if it was a generic function? 23:41:34 drewc: I guess it might have repercussions on optimization 23:41:42 sepi: it wouldn't do the right thing on CL classes. 23:42:27 <_3b> you would still need more than 1, even with generic functions 23:42:31 pkhuong_: the standard implementation could just be what equal is currently 23:42:34 sepi: why equal? why not make eql or equalp generic? or all of them? 23:42:39 _3b: true 23:42:41 sepi: but I want something else. 23:42:55 -!- Draggor2 is now known as Draggor 23:43:23 <_3b> for that matter, you would really want multiple composable components for a 'generic' equality predicate... 23:43:29 sepi: the only thing you would win would be the default *immutable* methods for CL classes. That's very little code. 23:43:32 <_3b> traverse structure or not, fold case, etc 23:43:34 ok, let's call the generic method equivalent. It could call equal for cases where there is no method that specifies otherwise 23:43:56 sepi: that's even simpler to code, and very probably doesn't do what you want. 23:44:22 pkhuong_: for most cases it will 23:45:02 sepi: then write your generic predicate and use it 23:45:11 drewc: too lazy 23:45:13 sepi: you do realize that EQUAL punts to EQL very easily? 23:45:45 sepi: (defgeneric sepi-equal (x y) (:method (x y) (equal x y))) 23:47:02 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:21 pkhuong_: what do you mean by punt? 23:48:52 hi 23:49:23 I meant that equal of (list (make-foo)) and (list (make-foo)) will compare the first element of both lists with EQL, if make-foo returns structures. 23:50:08 That's probably not what you're looking for, if you're asking for a generic equality. 23:50:32 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:51:28 (generic-equal foo bar :inner-test (make-generic-equal :inner-test (make-generic-equal ...))) and turtles all the way down! 23:54:14 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A321.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:54:33 pkhuong_: It's true that this approach is difficult if you just informally specify types. It would be easier if you had an explicit foo-list type for example. 23:55:01 drewc: once you start dispatching on object identity your generic-equal really isn't saving you work (: 23:55:56 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:55 antifuchs: of course, it was meant to be reducto ad absurdum :) 23:58:03 drewc: "reductio" 23:58:43 reductio*