00:00:37 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:00:48 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:00:49 -!- e2xistz [~yi@ool-45705db3.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 00:01:03 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:38 cYmen: local-time basically has no date support. what's there is a kludge to represent dates as timestamps with zero time part, so if you want to obtain the year/month/day part of such a "date" you need to use the UTC timezone to decode the timestamp 00:03:15 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 00:06:21 how real is this todo? is that going to happen anytime soon? can I help? 00:07:14 I'm not going to do it in the next 1-2-3 months for sure, unless we get a new contract to work on our business app 00:08:14 I'm also demotivated by not being the owner and holding back myself from coding standards I like... but this way what I do is more uncomfortable and less appealing -- demotivation 00:08:36 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C934.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:08:37 sadf3 [~bryce@108.102.138.140] has joined #lisp 00:09:53 hm..stripping away the parts that you consider broken what is left? 00:10:01 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:10:03 not to belittle I'm seriously curious 00:11:30 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has joined #lisp 00:12:25 it's not really that... it's more about the general infrastructure, which libs to depend on, etc... 00:12:47 hm..well how about a rewrite? 00:12:55 i mean you have talked to david about this, right? 00:13:27 that's not nice, especially that dlowe is quite open for changes and I haven't brought up this issue with him 00:13:47 oh, alright 00:14:04 well, he did read my notes in TODO and didn't disagree. but we didn't talk about the environmental stuff... 00:14:22 cYmen: what are your plans? what do you need l-t for? 00:14:25 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:14:30 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-98-152.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:14:30 writing myself a little calendar 00:14:37 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-34-84.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:15:04 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 00:15:06 this may sound ridiculous but a good time handling package is basically half the work 00:16:27 I know, we're dealing with enterprise bullshit which involves a lot of date/time handling... l-t helps a lot, but its lack of date concept makes life very hard and dangerous 00:16:27 anyone seen fare? 00:17:05 dto: ilc just ended, I guess he'll be online on Monday 00:17:24 well..I would be willing to spend some time on this if it would be of help 00:17:36 oh i forgot 00:18:33 attila_lendvai: it would be nice to have a port of remind as CL library :) 00:19:00 `remind`? 00:20:25 cYmen: a certain "calendar" program for unix, famous for its flexibility in handling dates 00:23:02 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-206-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:22 ah looks interesting 00:23:26 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:25 whats the best way to reference files that will be part of a system? right now, i'm just specifying the file names but this becomes a problem if i load the system while not in the system dir. 00:24:40 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@76.204.94.189] has left #lisp 00:25:36 (for example, these are image files i'd like to keep in an images/ subfolder) 00:26:03 derrida: asdf:system-relative-pathname is a handy function for that 00:26:05 derrida: you can try to save relative path, but I'd consider it mostly unwise 00:26:30 Xach: that sounds very handy indeed :) 00:26:51 Personally, I believe such files shouldn't be made part of the "system" unless you incorporate a way to ensure they get built into image or whatever :) 00:27:15 p_l|home: how do you propose shipping the assets to a game? 00:27:16 p_l|home: so if your application needs to load a font at runtime, where should it keep the font file? 00:27:19 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 00:28:23 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:28:35 practically, I think it's an excellent idea for an ASDF extension, that would add rest of the "build", not only "compile and link" 00:29:09 Hey, is that handwaving? 00:29:38 I recall playing around with something similar involving logical pathnames, but I haven't thought about making an ASDF extension back then 00:29:46 (ASDF2 wasn't available as well) 00:30:00 i'm still using *load-pathname* and *c-f-pathname* 00:30:25 so i'm always ready to jump asdf 00:30:43 a "common lisp application framework", of sorts. That doesn't force anything except taking care of providing necessary information like system-dependant filepaths 00:30:54 Xach: I've seen a scheme game that loaded everything at compile-time (: 00:31:34 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:31:35 pkhuong_: I recall some game that used shaders and programmatically generated assets for everything 00:31:41 felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-126-63.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:28 pkhuong_: I've mentioned a few times my idle desire to have a generic DIRECTORY, OPEN, PROBE-FILE, etc, so assets could be lumped somewhere other than the normal filesystem. 00:33:04 in the cloud? 00:33:16 maybe in the binary, even 00:33:21 stassats: so it would disperse and fall somewhere? nah 00:33:43 (save-lisp-and-die "foo" :executable t :bundle-filesystem-tree "assets/")! 00:36:37 and then to convince your graphics toolkit to access this 00:37:10 stassats: most will accept when you shove a binary array down their throats 00:37:29 so that's not a problenm 00:37:31 *problem 00:37:40 then i see no merit in "generic DIRECTORY, OPEN, PROBE-FILE" 00:38:23 stassats: my graphics toolkit is written in lisp 00:38:36 lucky you 00:38:44 stassats: unless you want to have a way of switching between "release/bundled" and "developement/unbundled" with simple change of let's say... "system" component of the path? 00:38:45 I've been trying to find /some/ justification in the spec for dispatching on a pathname host or device or something to bring arbitrary filesystem semantics into the mix. 00:39:15 nyef: dispatching on host is OS-specific issue left to implementation, I think 00:39:49 usually, the OS did that. Nothing says we can't do that as well, although it plays hell with some OSes 00:40:13 Yeah, there was some obnoxious limit around host dispatch that I wasn't a fan of, though. 00:40:28 hmm? 00:40:43 I'm not remembering the details right now. 00:41:07 *stassats* plots ugly graphs in qt from lisp 00:41:39 *p_l|home* still finds it cute how CLHS as first example in pathnames gives TOPS-20 00:42:17 how do I get the declared type of a slot value? 00:42:46 sadf3: via MOP 00:43:05 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-206-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:43:33 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 00:44:50 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:45:45 slot-definition-type after you get the slot itself 00:46:20 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:47:48 *p_l|home* thinks it's time to restart firefox 00:53:07 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:26 http://github.com/patzy/glaw/blob/master/examples/examples.lisp here, in run-example function definition, the "(glaw:init-content-manager (asdf:system-relative-pathname :glaw "data/"))" line should set the glaw::*content-directory* to the glaw library path, so that data files the examples use can be loaded, however, glaw::*content-directory* keeps set to NIL, and i get errors telling me the target file doesnt exist in path. 00:53:45 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:17 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 00:54:22 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-126-63.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:54:25 now if i manually enter "(glaw:init-content-manager (asdf:system-relative-pathname :glaw "data/"))" , sbcl successfully finds the files. 00:54:46 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:54:52 what would cause such a problem? 00:55:21 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:55:25 is anyone here well versed in whether ECL depends on conservative behaviour from garbage collector? Or can I just move Lisp objects at will if I update the pointers? 00:57:44 Any lisp library which would help do a global search and replace for all files in a directory? I can do it in one line in perl, but nothing jumps out at me in lisp. 00:58:16 standard CL works 00:58:47 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59:00 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:59:07 plus cl-ppcre if you need regular expressions 00:59:15 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:06:54 My problem seems to be appying cl-ppcre to the streams. I end up appending rather than replacing. 01:08:05 felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-126-63.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:57 what's the right way to do (typep x 'boolean) in sbcl? 01:15:58 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:24 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:16:30 not do that at all 01:16:48 otherwise, that's the way 01:16:58 stassats:why? 01:17:09 stassats:it throws an error, t is not of type list 01:17:28 because in lisp everything is boolean (generalized) 01:17:47 sadf3: what trows an error? 01:19:41 stassats:yeah, everything is t except nil right? but (type-of t)=>BOOLEAN but then (typep t 'boolean) throws an error 01:20:07 no it does not 01:20:27 and nil is of type t also. 01:21:12 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:19 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 01:23:12 hm, it only seems to do so in slime 01:25:55 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:43 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:13 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:29:14 powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:41 tesdd [~powerj@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:02 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:31:20 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:02 -!- sadf3 [~bryce@108.102.138.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:32:19 wol: i only figured how to replace a string with the same number of letters 01:32:48 but in any case, it's probably better to output into another file and rename at the end 01:33:05 that way you won't lose your data in case something goes wrong 01:34:29 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx50-2-142177005076.ppp-dynamic.dial.ns.bellaliant.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:35:13 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:28 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:35:57 -!- meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-055-169.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 01:36:08 Agreed. I did manage to figure out how to do that. Was trying to understand how to use :direction :io and :overwrite but failing 01:36:09 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:36:19 -!- sdsds is now known as T4_ 01:36:25 -!- T4_ is now known as sdsds 01:36:26 But agree that output and rename is definitely safer. 01:36:36 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 01:36:54 -!- tesdd [~powerj@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: tesdd] 01:38:06 wol: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115870 01:38:07 that is some ugly code 01:38:34 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-126-63.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:38:38 ew, terpri is missing stream 01:39:02 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:41:36 lonstein [~lonstein@cpe-74-70-206-82.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:48 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Quit: booting new kernel] 01:43:22 and this only works for single line regexps 01:44:37 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:05 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-115-87-239-216.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:45:25 sadf3 [~bryce@108.102.138.140] has joined #lisp 01:45:34 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-178-106.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:51:12 Just tried it. It also doesn't like files with square brackets in the text. 01:51:23 (after fixing the terpri) 01:54:11 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:56:31 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-206-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:43 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:13 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:02:52 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:21 -!- sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 02:03:28 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f72006b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:43 I'll try to do some timing comparing this with writing the stream out to a string, do the regex, then write the string out to a new file and renaming. 02:04:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:07:00 Just irritating that it literally is a standard one-liner in perl 02:08:11 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f73443a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:08:13 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:11:38 wol: frankly, I'd call out to sed and be done with it. 02:11:59 *stassats* is searching for the shortest way to segfault SBCL 02:12:19 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:14:31 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 02:14:37 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:41 stassats: in the lisp heap or outside? 02:16:18 doesn't matter as long as it's crashing with it to OS, not into LDB 02:16:58 mm... disable ldb and exhaust the heap with a huge unsafe dx alloc seems like the best way. 02:17:05 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:23 otherwise, you'll tend to get a lisp condition. 02:19:19 stassats: using sb-aline to write to page 0? 02:19:28 *sb-alien 02:20:06 it's guaranteed segfault on several platforms 02:20:33 the question is whether SBCL will try to catch it 02:20:40 it still exits with unhandled condition in --disable-debugger mode, quitting 02:21:06 p_l|home: sbcl catches sigsegvs 02:22:40 stassats: well, you can try disabling sigsegv handler 02:22:49 ska` [~user@ppp-115-87-239-216.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 02:23:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 02:23:19 p_l|home: that'll hose the GC. 02:23:49 ... well, he wanted a crash, or not? 02:24:05 i certainly do! 02:24:55 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:25:05 -!- sadf3 [~bryce@108.102.138.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:25:08 so does "hosing GC" fit? 02:25:21 how do i do it? 02:25:25 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 02:26:00 stassats: signal(3)? 02:26:50 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:27:10 *p_l|home* is checking it right now, dunno which method is used by SBCL 02:27:24 Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 02:28:00 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:23 * (gc) zsh: segmentation fault sbcl 02:28:24 yay 02:28:29 hehe 02:28:35 stassats: what did you need that for? 02:28:44 (alien-funcall(extern-alien"signal"(function int int int))11 1) 02:31:54 stassats: did it crash the moment you changed GC parameters? 02:32:05 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:32:11 it crashed the moment i evaluated (gc) 02:32:16 ahh 02:34:42 No traps are enabled? How can this be? <--- lol @ killing SBCL from inside 02:34:49 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 02:39:08 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:41:10 -!- sonnym1 [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47:35 -!- Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has left #lisp 02:48:44 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:58 Demosthenes [~demo@65.41.157.11] has joined #lisp 02:51:42 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:51:44 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.97.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:51:47 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:52:29 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:52:34 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.97.201] has joined #lisp 02:53:45 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:54:32 juan_arch [~juan@190.178.36.65] has joined #lisp 02:56:14 Hi, needing for an advice over here 02:56:29 chewbranca [~chewbranc@c-24-18-241-128.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:46 juan_arch: go ahead 02:57:41 thanks, first I want to apologize for my english (I'm from Argentina) I hope you don't mind 02:59:35 I've been looking at some emacs-lisp scripts and I'm reading the emacs-lisp manual, but I was wondering if I could use emacs-lisp programs as the ones written in common lisp 03:00:43 no. 03:00:46 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:00:46 they have some common subset, but otherwise they're quite different 03:01:39 oh, so the only possible use for emacs-lisp is to extend the emacs editor, right? 03:02:09 that is correct 03:02:48 you can also invoke emacs in batch mode 03:03:08 as an interpreter of emacs-lisp files, right? 03:03:16 right 03:03:46 you can write any kind of crazy thing in emacs-lisp 03:03:55 things 03:05:20 symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:49 yeah, but CL implementations are IMHO more powerful :) 03:07:02 (multithreading! CFFI! xD) 03:07:27 yes, i've been reading some code, I got excited when I first discovered that most features of emacs are written in emacs-lisp... like doctor.el or snake.el 03:07:56 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:08:24 most of emacs is written in emacs lisp 03:08:32 I've also read that emacs-lisp can be implemented to manipulate files in a better way than perl does 03:09:33 i think it's easier to manipulate lisp source code from emacs-lisp, haven't tried anything else 03:10:08 juan_arch: Well, you can use all Emacs buffer editing commands... but I wouldn't use it for that 03:10:21 so if I want to learn lisp, would you recommend me to start with emacs-lisp? 03:10:34 no 03:10:56 i would recommend Common Lisp, or at the very list Scheme 03:11:05 err, least 03:12:23 I see... 03:13:15 you should learn elisp only in case you want to extend Emacs 03:14:02 If you don't mind I would like to hear from your experience at the moment you begin with lisp 03:14:02 and learning elisp after you already know Common Lisp is very easy 03:14:07 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:13 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:14:53 things like first impressions, conclussions, and so on... 03:15:46 juan_arch: in my case it took several abortive tries till I encountered PCL for the second or third time, *and* seen Haskell Typeclasses (and suddenly I understood generic-functions) 03:16:09 seems like the usual experience of encountering something new, first you don't understand anything, then you are trying to copy something you don't understand 03:16:40 then you are frustrated at that fact, and then gradually things become clear 03:18:18 and could you say that lisp has given you things that you could never get with other languages? 03:18:57 macros 03:19:51 though, i usually miss interactive development environment when using other languages 03:20:22 oh, I see 03:20:25 where you can change any part of the program without stopping it 03:20:33 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.9] has joined #lisp 03:20:43 Khiem 03:20:59 I actually miss easy-to-setup Emacs IDE 03:21:12 that it's interactive is even better 03:21:24 but srsly, I could never get autocomplete to work correctly 03:21:40 autocomplete of what? 03:21:49 stassats: non-SLIME modes 03:22:00 well, thanks for your time, it was really helpful 03:22:07 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:22:09 p_l|home: elisp completion works fine 03:22:13 now that I dug an apparently good Java mode, it requires projects to use Maven 03:22:29 stassats: ah, well, I rarely use Elisp and I don't really notice it in difference to CL :P 03:22:30 Good morning everyone! 03:22:39 -!- juan_arch [~juan@190.178.36.65] has left #lisp 03:22:41 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 03:23:29 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 03:25:57 p_l|home: M-/ WFM. 03:26:12 i'm trying to have a function intern a new symbol and then set its initial value. i can't seem to figure out where the symbol is going (i specified a package but (boundp 'my-new-symbol) fails. 03:27:50 this is the function in question: http://sprunge.us/jMdH?cl 03:28:34 and it's wrong 03:28:44 *derrida* nods sheepishly 03:28:46 clhs symbol-value 03:28:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_5.htm 03:29:31 derrida: you're setting the value bound to sym, not the global binding of the symbol bound to sym. 03:29:32 though the very idea is bad 03:30:10 and you also need to proclaim your symbol special 03:30:11 my goal was to initialize a set of arrays that are going to hold instances 03:30:20 1d arrays 03:30:38 stassats: you think wrong headed though? 03:32:11 you want to store all instances of a particular class? 03:32:27 yes, to keep track of them. 03:32:50 then it's better to store that array inside a class, not in a variable 03:33:24 and think hard about GC effects. 03:34:24 stassats: that does make a lot more sense :D 03:34:52 and you need MOP to do it 03:35:22 well, you can store it into :class allocated slot, but i don't know how to access such slots without any instances without using MOP anyway 03:36:22 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.97.201] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:38:29 stassats: class-prototype. 03:38:47 right, that's already MOPery. 03:41:18 georgek [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:22 hi, working on getting asdf-install working with sbcl on Windows XP, and get this error when trying to install a package -- "couldn't fork child process: Invalid argument" -- found a possible solution at http://robert.zubek.net/blog/2008/04/09/sbcl-emacs-windows-vista/#comment-5 but that's from April 2008, anything changed since then? 03:43:26 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@65.41.157.11] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:43:48 minion: please tell georgek about quicklisp 03:43:49 georgek: please see quicklisp: Quicklisp aims to make it easy to get started with a rich set of community-developed Common Lisp libraries. http://www.cliki.net/quicklisp 03:44:36 ahh nice 03:44:39 any of you using yasnippet with SLIME? 03:44:47 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:48:50 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:50:17 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:20 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:54:48 heh. I look at memory utlization, see a giant number of threads from FF with only 181MB res, then I notice it was the flash plugin running in a harness... 03:54:59 FF takes nice 666MB 03:56:44 rukowen1 [~thehien@113.161.72.9] has joined #lisp 03:57:15 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:00:33 -!- az [~az@p5796CC94.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:01:01 if I do "sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp", where does sbcl look for the argument -- I tried putting quicklisp.lisp in site and site-systems but no luck 04:01:24 or is it local to the current dir 04:02:47 Acidbarrel [~dr@bas1-hamilton01-2925008536.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:02:51 if you're passing a relative pathname, then it's relative to the current directory 04:03:34 darkf [~darkf@ip68-12-160-23.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:05 Lisp is a horrible language 04:04:08 lisp is shit 04:04:21 it should get in a car and die 04:04:33 not in a cdr? 04:04:33 visual basic is better 04:04:41 stassats: Nice! :) 04:04:42 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 04:04:59 *Acidbarrel* has turrets 04:04:59 -!- Zhivago has set mode +q Acidbarrel!*@* 04:05:18 may the conses consume you 04:06:14 my head or my tail ? 04:06:16 lol 04:07:26 *beach* wonders what make people like Acidbarrel do what they do. Another psychology essay to write there no doubt. 04:08:18 juvenility 04:08:31 I presume that they were dropped on their heads as chldren. 04:08:32 pretty much that 04:09:35 Adler sez: the craving for attention of what are perceived to be superior others 04:09:36 manchild... 04:10:27 what's your favorite lisp dialect? :-) 04:10:44 (including implementation) 04:11:18 SBCL, after all it's called so after me 04:11:30 you can bet on that! 04:11:33 graphitemaster [~DaleWeile@unaffiliated/graphitemaster] has joined #lisp 04:11:33 lol 04:11:46 I love lisp 04:11:49 <3 04:11:56 i loathe lisp 04:13:26 graphitemaster: New here? 04:13:32 yep 04:14:19 beach, ya have a problem with that? 04:14:25 Not at all. 04:14:47 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.121] has joined #lisp 04:16:10 what does 'defun' even mean? 04:16:22 that has been nagging at me for years 04:16:23 DEfine FUNction ? 04:16:23 define function, nub 04:16:30 "deprive of fun" 04:16:33 graphitemaster: It means you should pick up a book and go read. 04:17:02 no need to read, I been programming lisp since I was in war back in Vietnam 04:17:12 Zhivago: he's back 04:17:23 who's back? 04:17:26 Definitely! 04:17:27 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:52 it's not the same person, I think... or rather, hope so 04:18:02 I have a local system to load with quicklisp, and I'm trying (ql:quickload "c:\\documents and settings\\george\\my documents\\dev\\cl-tcod") -- that says system not found though, how would I do that? 04:19:23 georgek, try another programming language ? 04:19:28 georgek: instead of specifying path, configure ASDF2 to include the directory hierarchy c:\\documents and settings\\george\\my documents\\dev then call (ql:quickload 'cl-tcod) 04:20:04 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:20:16 VastLite [~vastlite@72-173-39-251.cust.wildblue.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:18 graphitemaster: #scriptkiddie is on different network 04:20:19 georgek: sbcl --load works with files; quicklisp handles system names. 04:20:48 thanks 04:20:55 p_l|home: doesn't loading an .asd register the asdf system, too? 04:21:03 (ugly, though) 04:21:22 sykopomp: it does, but I don't think this case actually loaded the file in question 04:21:57 say, what exactly does it take to get banned here? 04:22:26 graphitemaster: you could try and be so helpful so as to attain ophood 04:22:34 (assert (sucks? 'lisp)) 04:22:42 what, then ban himself? 04:22:52 p_l|home: that reminded me of http://i.imgur.com/qz3WJ.gif 04:23:06 that would be a lot of work just to get banned from a channel 04:23:06 VastLite: wouldn't that make for an übertroll 04:23:16 indeed 04:23:27 ooh I want to try that sometime 04:23:28 stassats: hahahahaha 04:23:39 (powered by lisp, surely) 04:24:10 "graphitemaster has banned graphitemaster* (I hate lisp)" 04:28:54 az [~az@p4FE4F1C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:48 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 04:34:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 04:34:48 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 04:36:51 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:39:28 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:41:04 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-221-165-176.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:43:41 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-98-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:45:32 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-98-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:45:40 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-98-73.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 04:45:57 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-87-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:46:15 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-87-77.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:46:55 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-98-73.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:47:15 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 04:48:19 -!- rukowen1 [~thehien@113.161.72.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:49:54 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-omvbczycwbfywzjw] has joined #lisp 04:52:53 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-98-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:56:00 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-98-73.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:56:18 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:51 evening 04:57:09 -!- Acidbarrel [~dr@bas1-hamilton01-2925008536.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 04:57:09 Acidbarrel [~dr@bas1-hamilton01-2925008536.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:57:15 -!- Acidbarrel [~dr@bas1-hamilton01-2925008536.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 04:58:29 hello slyrus_ 04:58:56 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:00:14 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:00:58 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:01:41 inklesspen [~jon@inklesspen.com] has joined #lisp 05:02:09 Anyone know where I can find examples of creating tables with Postmodern without using DAO? 05:03:07 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:03:54 inklesspen: just query "CREATE TABLE ..." 05:04:13 well, certainly you can do that. 05:04:19 but I wanted to use s-sql 05:04:27 Postmodern has a deftable macro 05:04:33 but I'm not sure of the proper way to use it 05:04:42 i don't trust it 05:04:55 You don't trust deftable? or you don't trust s-sql? 05:05:10 last time i wanted to use s-sql it lacked half of the parameters i needed 05:05:40 surely the long-term solution is to fix that, though? 05:06:19 perhaps, but not on my agenda 05:10:03 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:14:15 anyone else? 05:14:54 no 05:15:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:16:02 well, what do you do for SQL? 05:16:43 trying to stay as far away as possible 05:17:11 what you don't do school anymore ? 05:17:23 stassats: I figured. I was asking the other people. 05:17:46 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 05:19:15 i once loaded s-sql 05:19:29 inklesspen: are you just looking for a s-sql create-table command ? 05:19:54 wol: no, I've got that. 05:20:15 didn't try any further due to several libs failing either to recompile or giving some error like pgsql is a nickname for postgresql or something like that etc.... 05:20:53 Personally, I had much better luck with postmodern than with clsql. YMMV 05:21:04 wol: but I'm having a weird error with the postmodern:deftable macro. The *table-name* variable isn't working like I think it's supposed to. 05:21:50 wol: what was the issue with clsql ? 05:21:52 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 05:22:38 my clsql-postgresql and clsql-mysql just work here, i just don't know how much of the functionality is bugless though 05:23:20 I kept getting out of sync with the square bracket reader syntax. 05:23:20 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:24:25 did you enable or disable the reader-syntax ? 05:24:29 Was a year or so ago. I haven't had any issues with postmodern 05:24:45 s-sql doesn't handle everything but I have no problem just dropping into straight sql 05:25:03 ddp [~ddp@c-67-169-77-221.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:27 -!- ddp [~ddp@c-67-169-77-221.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:25:34 As I recall, I was trying to enable the reader-syntax, but from time to time in the repl I would lose it againt. 05:25:35 ddp [~ddp@c-67-169-77-221.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:46 oh 05:25:55 -!- ddp [~ddp@c-67-169-77-221.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:26:01 have to test that with mine 05:30:17 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:25 just tried to load clsql-postgresql on quicklisp and it died with an erro message about uffi 05:33:38 Hmm. Just kept retrying and it seemed to work the 3rd time. Strange 05:34:48 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 05:35:12 maybe some things get not initialized proper the first time ? 05:35:18 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:01 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 05:36:01 wol: do you have cffi installed ? 05:36:15 Apparently. I just kept telling it to recompile and finally it shut up and did it. I think there may have been some confusion between UFFI and CFFI 05:36:17 wol: and uffi-cffi-compat or so ? 05:36:22 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-206-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:36:46 Yep. I just loaded a clean instance and finally got it to load 05:37:00 some things just don't like each other 05:37:07 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:12 i got it with quicklisp too 05:39:31 didn't try the clbuild stuf as of now 05:40:06 got sbcl and clisp buidl in clbuild but not ccl, ccl was not able to bootstrap itself from it's sources 05:40:16 so i got the binary and there wass an image provided 05:40:43 and i got ecl in clbuild, but didn't try either 05:41:01 rukowen1 [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 05:41:30 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:41:56 what i just did was to recompile all the stuff which got installed to see if i get the same behaviour as in quicklisp, wrt recompilation errors 05:41:56 -!- prip [~foo@host97-123-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:42:16 and some libs don't give any error whereas other's just fail 05:42:33 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:42:41 i don't understand if it is asdf specific or library specific 05:42:55 i think the latter 05:43:25 if the recompilation stuff can't deal with package names, only system-names or so.. 05:43:36 -!- georgek [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:44:03 Quadrescence [~Quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:08 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@c-24-131-149-41.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:44:09 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 05:44:49 makes it a real mess, you just can't differentiate between logic errors of the lib or the app or the code you running 05:45:20 Just for the hell of it, I looped over the quicklisp packages, trying to compile them all. The first loop got 570 out of 749 05:45:33 The second loop got another 50-60 05:45:53 and the rest ? 05:46:17 what do you mean by loop ? restarts ? 05:46:25 Still haven't got them all. some may not work on sbcl. 05:46:35 The first loop was without any restarts. 05:46:41 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:46:43 that's what i mean recompilation stuff should just be a non-issue 05:46:59 The second loop was restarting from scratch, but only going for what did not compile the first time 05:47:26 Some things have tried to change swank, which annoys the hell out of me 05:47:30 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 05:48:31 I sent Xach a list of the error messages for his files 05:48:42 my first thing i load is the named-readtables thing when i start sbcl 05:48:53 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:49:09 or rather just after my onlisp.lisp and lol.lisp stuff loading 05:49:25 -!- rukowen1 [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:50:39 i think librarys should just adapt a procedure of copying the original read-table before doing stuff and restoring it when done... 05:51:02 homie: they should adapt named-readtables 05:51:08 jep 05:51:22 or rather use it 05:52:26 Need to get some sleep before work. Night all. 05:52:32 night wol 05:52:45 -!- wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:53:14 flip214 [~marek@h081217084238.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 05:53:14 -!- flip214 [~marek@h081217084238.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Changing host] 05:53:14 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 05:54:58 prip [~foo@host5-194-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 05:59:46 What would be some reasons that sb-cover fails to report that some code has been executed? 06:00:10 Oh, wait... 06:01:04 psilord [~psilord@adsl-76-204-94-189.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:05 -!- psilord [~psilord@adsl-76-204-94-189.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 06:01:13 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:02:36 Stupid mistake on my part. Sorry! 06:02:53 I'm guessing the cause is that the code wasn't executed? (: 06:06:13 hey i've got a new lisp video coming shortly. 06:06:19 yay! 06:06:40 :) 06:06:46 hello antifuchs 06:06:50 hi, dto 06:07:24 this one shows the game screen side by side with the feet view, via a mirror next to the screen 06:07:35 i'll link when it's ready 06:07:45 cool, it's my bedtime now (: 06:07:52 looking forward to seeing the video (: 06:07:58 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 06:07:58 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Changing host] 06:07:58 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 06:09:13 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-nashzclczkahagja] has joined #lisp 06:12:18 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:12:53 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:13:50 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 06:13:50 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.107] has joined #lisp 06:17:00 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 06:18:30 "lisp sucks and it's dead; it has a cult following, but so does Hurd and BeOS" :( 06:18:52 aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:19:07 wtf 06:19:12 who says that ? 06:19:44 Quad: Well, it's somewhat true. 06:19:51 Quad: Why does it upset you? 06:20:40 Joreji [~thomas@83-070.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:21:01 Well, he's a good friend of mine. I generally respect his opinion. But saying Lisp is only good as IR and that Lisp (or even the foundations of what makes a lisp a lisp) is a terrible programming language. 06:21:02 the same guys that used to confirm BSD was dying 06:21:13 IR? 06:21:31 Quad: There are reasonable arguments that you can make along those lines. 06:21:52 Quad: In many regards lisps are terrible programming languages. 06:22:03 Quad: I'd never try to use a lisp like people use java. 06:22:05 I'd ignore his opinion at that point. I've see many people with many fancy-pants languages under their belt that agree the Lisp system is probably one of the simplest and best for metaprogramming 06:22:23 And one of the worst for large teams of semi-skilled programmers. 06:22:50 the alternative is usually some form of templating, which has it's own suck which is much worse on average 06:22:55 Zhivago: and I'd never try to shoot myself in the face with a pie, either. 06:23:04 of course, I'd never try to shoot myself in the face regardless. 06:23:11 Ralith: Good for you, but there are people who get paid good money to do that. 06:23:18 true enough! 06:23:43 There are a bunch of common use-cases where lisp isn't a particularly good fit. 06:23:59 Ignoring these is a bad idea. 06:24:28 I'd be interested to see what you'd enumerate them as 06:24:44 Well, macros are one of the major flaws in lisp. 06:24:56 why do you say that? 06:25:00 oh my 06:25:06 lol 06:25:10 They mean that it becomes impossible to simply dive into a project at a random location, understand the code there, fix it, and then get out again. 06:25:29 given unlimited time/manpower, how would you address that? 06:25:43 By not using macros. 06:25:52 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 06:25:57 It's all a matter of what you value. 06:26:10 If doing the above is important to you, then macros are just a pain in the arse. 06:26:11 i can say that about functions 06:26:20 Well, take C in contrast. 06:26:24 badly written code is hard to comprehend 06:26:33 stassats: that can be said about just about any construct, really. 06:26:41 You go and look at a function, you know exactly what the hell it's doing, because the language is pretty much inextensible. 06:26:43 sufficiently powerful one, anyway 06:27:02 So there's no need to understand the broader scope to any significant extent in order to understand one function's internals. 06:27:03 You might know what the function is doing, but probably not the programmer. 06:27:23 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:27:30 So if you care about cheap maintenance, then macros are a bad idea. 06:27:44 They increase the cost required to be able to maintain any piece of software that uses them. 06:28:05 On the other hand, you might not care because you might have a core team that knows everything already. 06:28:19 Zhivago: that 'only use functions' solves that issue would appear to be trivially false. 06:28:21 In which case macros aren't a problem, but you still have to pay the cost of learning them all in order to join that team. 06:28:31 Ralith: Provide reasoning. 06:28:35 namely, imagine a C function which acts as a conforming evaluator of CL code. 06:28:58 Ralith: You've missed the point. 06:29:05 Ralith: (a b c) < what does this mean in CL? 06:29:20 Ralith: a(b, c) <- what does this mean in C? 06:29:30 The first question cannot be answered without context, the second can. 06:29:48 Zhivago: my understanding of the point was "exclusive use of functions is inherently more easily comprehensible than use of macros" 06:29:52 i recently spent too much time understanding code written in continuation passing style 06:29:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:29:56 Ralith: Then you misunderstood. 06:30:04 Zhivago: would you restate, then? 06:30:06 Ralith: It is extensible language vs. inextensible language. 06:30:13 that was a nightmare, figuring what calls what, where and when 06:30:22 An extensible language requires a casual reader to learn all of the extensions in use in order to read casually. 06:30:25 Zhivago: the same example falsifies that. 06:30:34 Ralith: Provide reasoning. 06:30:50 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:17 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:31:58 Zhivago: C is sufficiently powerful that I can implement analogs of all CL's features in it. 06:32:09 and, in response to your question 06:32:22 Ralith: Irrelevant. 06:32:28 hi Ralith. 06:32:30 a(b, c) may refer to a C macro which stringifies a and b, for example. 06:32:48 Ralith: Sure, except that no C programmer would ever call a macro a. 06:33:03 oh? 06:33:05 well 06:33:11 no C programmer would ever name a function a, either :P 06:33:15 Wrong. 06:33:26 A C programmer might call a macro A. 06:33:36 so, all C programmers are disciplined? and lisp programmers are willfully obfuscating their code? 06:33:51 stassats: It isn't about obfuscation. 06:33:53 Zhivago: if you're trying to say no C programmer would leave a macro lowercase, that's also trivially false. 06:34:27 stassats: (with-open-db a b c) might make for clearer code -- but you still need to go and find out what it means in order to understand what's going on. 06:34:39 Ralith: When you're happy to return to reality, let me know. 06:34:42 jabb [~grue@71-94-31-166.dhcp.reno.nv.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:34:55 Ralith: new gameplay video: http://www.youtube.com/dto1138 06:34:56 Zhivago: that's not a meaningful argument. 06:35:05 (call-with-open-db (lambda (x) ...)) does make it clearer? 06:35:09 exactly how? 06:35:18 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:35:28 stassats: If you know that call-with-open-db isn't a macro, yes. 06:35:47 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:35:48 alright, this is pointless 06:35:48 stasats: In that case you know what arguments are evaluated for a start, and how they're used. 06:36:04 It is pointless because you're not interested in understanding. 06:36:25 you're one to talk after your earlier rebuttal :P 06:36:33 Imagine that you have a very large program that has been written by many, many people, over many years. 06:36:44 Imagine that you now have a bug to fix in this program. 06:37:21 Now consider the relative costs of learning what's required to understand the code you're reading enough to solve that bug. 06:37:35 These aren't things that most lisp programmers consider, because most lisp programmers work in very, very small teams. 06:37:36 M-. is just a key away 06:37:50 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-47-47.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:37:55 But they are things that lots of other people consider because it's how they operate in their corporate hives. 06:38:19 Until you can learn to see things from their perspective you won't understand why a lot of people think the lisp sucks. 06:38:26 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-98-152.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:38:26 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:38:28 (And for perfectly reasonable reasons) 06:38:35 in that regard C sucks too 06:38:45 i fixed bugs in SBCL by doing M-. without understanding even a fifth of the whole SBCL 06:38:49 Sure, but less so than CL. 06:38:53 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-206-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:13 i'm not able to fix bugs in code i don't understand the parts of or the context or the problem domain...etc... 06:39:21 Have a look at the google C++ styleguide for a nice example of this. 06:39:48 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39:51 They ban almost every language extensibility mechanism, and everything involving non-local operation. 06:40:01 And they have good reason to do so. 06:40:14 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:40:26 I think since so much can be done in so little in CL, it sure would take more time to understand the same amount of code, lengthwise, compared to C code. On the other hand, if we look at both languages performing a similar operation, the C code would probably take a lot longer to understand. 06:40:38 I'm trying to create a macro to define a class based on multiple symbols in a hash. I don't know how to loop through the hash and place them in the class definition. How do I do this? (http://paste.lisp.org/display/115875) 06:40:52 clhs maphash 06:40:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_maphas.htm 06:40:57 jabb: ^ 06:41:29 Quad: Until someone uses iterate, or ... 06:41:52 Quad: ... or whatever useful macros they've cooked up to improve expressibility. 06:41:54 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:42:20 It's just a difference between those interested in deep and shallow understanding. 06:42:24 good morning 06:43:08 and C sucks and C++ sucks and Java suck and #C sucks etc... 06:43:20 homie: Not useful. 06:44:46 and cooking sucks in general .... 06:44:51 but you have to eat not ? 06:44:52 lol 06:46:27 Lisp is not a team player because it nullifies the need for a team. :) 06:47:34 Quad: Unfortunately companies often need teams. 06:47:41 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:48:05 Yeah. 06:48:07 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:48:49 homie: the discussion was of relative, not absolute, merit. 06:48:54 The reason I can't get a job programming is probably because I don't want to code in the languages employers want. 06:48:59 (this sentence can be interpreted two ways and both are correct) 06:49:00 ah 06:49:08 and I don't want to be forced to code :P 06:50:16 pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.190.196] has joined #lisp 06:50:19 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 06:51:42 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-206-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:52:24 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:52:46 beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:53:40 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:49 beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:56:39 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-46-165.revip2.asianet.co.th] 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hello all 08:06:29 hey longkid 08:06:53 I'm reading your tasks 08:07:09 beach: How are you today? 08:07:12 kingless [~user@adsl-242-215-121.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:45 longkid: I am fine thank you. I am working on the SICL project today. What do you think of the task list? 08:08:33 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont_ 08:09:20 beach: It looks not simple. So, you want us to do first task and then second task. Or, we do two task concurrently? 08:09:38 longkid: You can do them all before submitting. 08:10:30 longkid: It is fairly simple because I want to check out the code produced by redsord7 and rukowen. 08:10:45 (before they write too much) 08:11:16 beach: Oh. I think these tasks will be a small task in other projects. 08:11:45 longkid: True. It is a document-restoration system. 08:12:11 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007065.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:12:31 beach: Yes, I see. 08:19:53 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:20:47 -!- corny [corny@brezn.muc.ccc.de] has left #lisp 08:29:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-151.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:29:53 beach: The file phim.pgm is an example of pgm file. So we'll use it for testing our program. Right? 08:30:09 Correct! 08:33:52 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7540c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:48 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:35:17 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 08:35:51 /who beach 08:36:29 chrnybo: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh 08:36:49 beach: Yes. Why is the average pixel value of the upper one less than 175? 08:36:55 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 08:37:18 It is based on my guessing from looking at typical text. 08:37:50 beach: Salut, Robert. 08:39:23 chrnybo: Hey! Do I know you? 08:40:24 beach: Yes, I think that's correct. The more black pixels this line has, the smallest this number is. 08:40:49 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007110.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 08:41:10 longkid: Right, so < 175 means "inside some text" and > 225 means "outside any text" 08:41:55 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-46-165.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:42:56 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 08:43:30 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-46-165.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:43:53 The pgm file that we read may contain many base lines. RIght? 08:53:01 beach: Don't think so. Last interaction was at the Cambridge lisp conference. 08:55:39 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 08:56:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-070.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:57:18 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 08:57:39 beach: When seeing phim.pgm, I think that for one line of texts, there are two base lines. Right? 09:02:36 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:04:27 chrnybo: Ah, OK. I see. 09:04:39 longkid: No 09:05:13 longkid: The base line is the line where letters such as o, m, a, k, and t sit. 09:05:52 longkid: Some of them traverse the base line, such as j, g, p, 09:07:28 -!- VastLite [~vastlite@72-173-39-251.cust.wildblue.net] has left #lisp 09:09:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007110.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:12:10 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:12:48 beach: I imagine the base line is the line traverse in the middle of characters. 09:13:04 no 09:14:39 ze_ [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:15:57 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu254.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:17:27 zoskia [zoskia@unaffiliated/zoskia] has joined #lisp 09:17:48 beach: Mr. Khiem has just called me. He doesn't know if we should define 3 parameters implicitly or user will define them? 09:18:47 -!- kingless [~user@adsl-242-215-121.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:18:54 pass them as arguments to the functions 09:19:49 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:20:00 beach: OK. Thanks a lot. We'll discuss together. 09:20:15 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:21:07 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-2.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:24:16 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:24:51 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:26:23 _6502_ [5895bdc9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.189.201] has joined #lisp 09:27:07 -!- ze_ [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:28:01 ze_ [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:29:21 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 09:31:19 good bye 09:33:07 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu254.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:33:13 -!- longkid [~longkid@118.68.57.168] has left #lisp 09:35:05 -!- ze_ [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:35:22 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:57 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:37:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-151.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:38:04 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:38:51 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:19 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:43:22 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 09:47:55 Is anyone in here in/from Switzerland 09:49:06 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.190.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:49:17 I'm about 1000 km away from Switzerland. Is that good enough for you? 09:49:45 And I speak half of the languages of Switzerland. 09:49:58 hahaha 09:50:04 pjb: including Lisp? 09:50:10 Joreji [~thomas@83-070.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:50:24 pjb: french and german ? 09:50:31 No, French and half German, which I should resume studying... 09:51:22 mvilleneuve: I didn't know that Lisp was an official language of Switzerland. 09:51:34 Perhaps all lispers should move to a canton, and establish it. 09:52:00 pjb: I have some questions about ETH, do you know of it? 09:52:05 pjb: you didn't specify "official" :) 09:52:23 that would be a very small canton, I guess 09:52:37 I know Wirth worked there and they've made Modula-2 and Oberon compilers and systems. 09:53:18 mvilleneuve: but imagine the exports! We would be #1 worldwide of intelligence software made with alien technology! 09:53:32 s/gence/gent/ 09:58:13 H4ns` [~user@p579F8647.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:21 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E005.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:02:17 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:57 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:03:26 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:20 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:05:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-070.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:07:09 -!- _6502_ [5895bdc9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.149.189.201] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:09:53 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-146-77.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:11:33 Blkt [~user@160.80.128.84] has joined #lisp 10:12:03 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:13:29 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:13:59 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:59 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:13:59 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 10:14:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 10:16:48 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:27:59 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-46-165.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:38:53 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:39:25 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-112-185.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:43:04 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:53:55 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f72006b.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 11:02:48 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:19 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:05:32 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:06:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:08:26 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:09:38 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:09:48 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:15:44 kingless [~user@adsl-242-215-121.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:48 -!- kingless [~user@adsl-242-215-121.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:16:37 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7540c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:20 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:28:08 -!- Blkt [~user@160.80.128.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:41:53 aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:42:08 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 11:42:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:45:27 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:46:43 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:49:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:50:25 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:50:35 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:47 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:52:54 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:45 anybody who was at ILC 2010 planning on doing a writeup? 12:00:10 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 12:08:43 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:08:52 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:10:33 starseeker: I'd like to write about it. 12:11:17 cool :-) 12:11:39 *starseeker* is rather curious to know how Peter Seibel's talk went, but can't find anything about it :-/ 12:13:41 The talk was pretty interesting. Dan Weinreb and JonL could not resist interrupting with questions and interjections. And it almost went way off on an audience-discussion tangent. 12:14:02 what was the title? 12:14:18 It was news to me that Dick Gabriel's (secret) role in the european ISLisp effort was to stall them as long as possible so the American standard could be completed. 12:14:34 One trick he used was to get them to argue about what it should be called, for two years. 12:14:48 Common Lisp Standardization: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly 12:14:57 Thanks! 12:15:07 Xach: ouch! 12:15:15 that's one evil trick 12:15:32 he prompted mccarthy to claim that no specific language should ever be called simply "Lisp" 12:15:39 pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.190.196] has joined #lisp 12:16:51 He also talked about how the standardization process for ANSI was done mostly without heat and anger, until it was all finished and the Credits page was to be finalized. Then people could not agree who should get credit for what. Literally down to arguing vehemently over individual sentences of credit. 12:16:51 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:16:54 hefner_ [~hefner@ppp-58-9-112-185.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:17:05 ~2 pages out of 1100 12:17:38 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-112-185.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:38 very interesting talk, and of course made spicier by the fact that some of those involved were there. 12:17:39 -!- hefner_ is now known as hefner 12:18:34 Xach: did they happen to make a video/audio record of it? sounds like a lot of very interesting human history 12:19:20 A video was made, but everyone who asked about it was told a waffling story of clearing intellectual property rights. 12:19:31 ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-11-182.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:35 bah 12:19:39 legal quicksand 12:19:40 Someone needs to be pushed or encouraged to make them available, I think. 12:20:00 (oddly appropriate given the fate of the standard though :-P) 12:20:48 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:21:06 Xach: whom do we push? 12:21:40 starseeker: Franz manned the camera, but I think the ALU might be the place to start. 12:22:51 hi Xach :) 12:23:09 heya dto 12:23:14 Xach: gameplay video with screen, feet, audio, and no edits/dubs :) 12:23:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtp2Sne-qk8 12:23:42 also completely overhauled the code and added more design stuff to be fleshed out. got a lot done last night 12:24:01 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 12:24:10 how are you ? 12:24:23 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:39 travel too and from reno didn't help my cold 12:24:52 gnus is slow to pull down thousands of messages at work 12:24:58 oh 12:25:04 yeah gnus 12:25:07 hope you feel better soon. 12:27:24 thanks 12:28:58 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 12:28:58 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 12:28:58 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:30:12 -!- darkf [~darkf@ip68-12-160-23.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:30:21 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:30:39 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ibvdzwgasvowjotb] has joined #lisp 12:30:42 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:31:30 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zrfuucapcwstvlor] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:32:28 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:33:28 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 12:36:34 -!- lonstein [~lonstein@cpe-74-70-206-82.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 12:37:21 about this: "What Ruby could be" http://jng.imagine27.com/articles/2010-10-07-084756_ruby_subset_implementation.html 12:37:22 isn't this probably a comparison of how much time you save by not printing the result? 12:38:26 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:33 that article is bs 12:41:55 lets take everything that makes Ruby slow out 12:42:05 and be surprised that we got faster code 12:42:47 Well, it's starting to catch up to python, these days ... 12:43:51 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:44:38 if i understand correctly, SBCL sets ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE-LIMIT to around 512mb. if i want bigger vector/matrices than that, i have to change the constant and recompile or? 12:44:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:44:41 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-112-185.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:45:25 hypno: ...buy an amd64 12:45:35 here's a nickel, kid, etc 12:45:41 I want one too :( 12:45:51 *Xach* shares nickels hither and yon 12:45:54 \o/ 12:46:09 Xach: heh. so on amd64 it's way bigger? 12:47:02 1152921504606846973 12:47:17 or "1,152,921,504,606,846,973" with commas 12:47:32 which is 60 bits 12:47:41 57 in ccl 12:47:44 ah, nice. ok. 12:48:00 on amd64, you might have 99 problems but bits ain't one. 12:48:17 Xach: what problems? 12:48:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:48:32 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:44 i'm on 64 bits for some time now, without any problems... 12:48:47 jdz: Sorry, just stretching to make a bad play on words. 12:48:53 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:55 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:01 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:49:15 jdz: With a name like j_z  you should know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Problems 12:49:20 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:31 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:49:51 -!- jweiss-out [~jweiss@nat/redhat/x-qhyvseafmgqdxanc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:51 sellout: except that i hear about this j..z guy first time 12:49:57 sellout: i expected a jwz-quote i didn't know yet. like the regex-one ;) 12:50:23 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:29 anyway, i was just curious if i'm missing something 12:50:39 back to lisping, then 12:53:30 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-139.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:55:18 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:55:29 . 12:55:35 , 13:02:52 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:04:29 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:05:52 13:06:29 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:30 very interesting 13:06:38 13:06:47 oh, my client also allows to send whitespace 13:06:58 must be a very cool feature 13:08:02 -!- bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:08:20 I think that comma there was off-topic 13:11:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.193] has joined #lisp 13:13:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:16:18 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 13:16:22 carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.210] has joined #lisp 13:17:02 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:17:56 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-11-182.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:20:02 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:22:24 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-omvbczycwbfywzjw] has left #lisp 13:24:50 hrmn. 13:24:54 lanthan_afh_ [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:24:59 I need to find a way to keep the cat off my desk. :P 13:25:11 put a dog on your desk? 13:25:36 I was thinking maybe cayenne pepper 13:25:37 put some meat under the desk? 13:25:57 seriously, double-sided sticky tape is the best thing ever for that 13:26:07 and it's hilarious as well 13:26:12 *Fade* chuckles 13:26:18 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 13:26:20 nice. that hadn't occurred to me. :) 13:27:31 Fade: http://www.therefinedfeline.com/kitinbox-cat-perch.htm 13:28:06 that looks like something that a cat will never ever use, but be fascinated by the box it comes in 13:28:17 true 13:28:19 yeah, i'm skeptical. 13:28:21 Good morning all. When you are developing in SLIME, do you do anything in particular to get a fresh environment? 13:28:30 Quadrescence: ,restart 13:28:35 from the repl 13:28:41 are you serious 13:29:03 Fade: My desk is big enough that I just put a regular cat bed on it  my cat's in there all the time. 13:29:05 ,rest :) 13:29:25 Quadrescence: That's a pretty easy way to do it. You can also delete packages and try to reload them. 13:29:33 Quadrescence: Did you have something in mind? 13:29:49 Fade: http://skitch.com/sellout/ngbfx/my-desk 13:29:58 Nothing in particular Xach 13:30:22 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:30:33 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:05 Quadrescence: there is a lot of state you can undo interactively in CL. it comes down to a question of how much you need to preserve some state while removing other state. 13:31:18 Quadrescence: if you don't care much, your lisp can restart pretty quickly. 13:31:49 sellout: how do you keep it off your keyboard when you aren't there? 13:32:20 urandom__ [~user@p548A3610.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:28 Fade: your cat wants to code lisp, why do you forbid it? 13:32:46 undoing some state can be tricky though. try to recover from (setf *read-base* 36) 13:32:47 Fade: keyboard is under the desk :) 13:32:57 Fade: With the laptop on a stand, and my regular keyboard under the desk, I've never had a problem with him on the keyboard  he would just always stand between me and the screen. 13:33:09 mal__: (setf *read-base* #10r10) 13:33:19 dlowe: try it 13:33:27 dlowe: 10, really? 13:33:37 dlowe: i mean, the first, not the second 13:33:39 sellout: yeah mine does the same 13:33:41 Acidbarrel [~dr@bas1-hamilton01-2925008536.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:33:42 10. 13:33:45 -!- Acidbarrel [~dr@bas1-hamilton01-2925008536.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 13:33:49 oh, yeah. the first 10 would be 36 13:33:54 cute 13:34:28 10. indeed 13:34:33 that's not even the problem. that can be solved by using (+ 1 1 1 ...) 13:34:35 every base is base 10 13:34:49 trailing dots always means the integer is in base-10 13:34:52 the problem is that setf is read as the integer 1325571 13:34:54 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:34:55 dot, rather 13:34:59 but ever base is not base-(+ 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1) 13:35:06 am I the first one to build libfixposix on OSX? 13:35:46 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:36:01 mal__: |SETF| 13:36:02 mal__: (\Setq *read-base* 10.) 13:36:08 (|SETF| |*READ-BASE*| #10r10) 13:36:09 ;) 13:36:16 (|SETF| |*READ-BASE*| A) 13:36:36 * doesn't make it a number 13:37:12 (|SET| '*READ-BASE* (1+ (* 3 3))) 13:37:25 yeah it's doable :) 13:37:31 nice puzzle 13:37:40 see, we all collectively did it with the 5th try 13:37:55 additional points if you manage to change the value of 'T or 'NIL 13:38:03 jdz: i did it at the first try! 13:38:45 stassats`: you only provided the 10., but i'm sure you'd do it on the first try, anyway. 13:38:47 I didn't find the || trick the first time I heard it. I came upon multiple-value-setq 13:38:48 next challenge: (delete-package :cl) 13:38:56 (i'd miss the SETF on the first try) 13:39:06 (unintern 'T) 13:39:12 symbols with a hyphen in it can't be parsed as numbers so no need for escaping them 13:39:20 *Fade* reverts the cat's merges 13:39:40 Fade: in the toilet? 13:40:10 eh. I stupidly left my emacs frame focused when I went to bed last night. :) 13:41:03 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:41:27 Fade: Hahaha, I forget that sometimes :< 13:41:52 Fade: are you sure that weren't you sleepcoding? 13:42:28 god, I hope not. the output wouldn't say much in favour of the organisation of my subconscious. :) 13:42:29 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ibvdzwgasvowjotb] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:42:32 ddp_ [~ddp@c-67-169-77-221.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:55 -!- ddp_ [~ddp@c-67-169-77-221.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:43:10 maybe it was APL, some people speak foreign languages in their dreams 13:43:11 sleep coding is real 13:43:37 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-47-47.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:44:47 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-50-85.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:45:59 Fade: why did you expect scrapes of swapped out temporary data from GC run to be well organised? 13:46:42 heh 13:48:00 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-50-85.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 13:48:07 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-50-85.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:49:40 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:52:59 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 13:57:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:58:47 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.100.73] has joined #lisp 14:01:29 mcspiff [8e444c1d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.142.68.76.29] has joined #lisp 14:04:38 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:44 konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has joined #lisp 14:05:51 hey stassats, I have the suspicion that M-. does not work if the buffer's name contains an asterisk 14:07:00 works in *slime-scratch* 14:07:38 I mean if the original filename contains an asterisk 14:07:45 let*.lisp 14:08:48 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:09 i can't see a justification to use such filenames 14:09:15 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 14:09:15 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 14:09:15 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:09:19 but it indeed fails, and not only on M-. 14:09:41 You can't see a justification? 14:09:51 That name will cause problems for CLISP and cl:directory. 14:09:54 And probably other things. 14:10:06 funny filenames are always nice. include a few files that start with - or $ and you're good to go :) 14:10:06 tcr: it's a failure waiting to happen 14:10:15 *hefner* glares at CCL 14:10:37 I think we should use funky filenames more in that case so such bugs get shaken out 14:11:01 last I checked, it's 2010 14:11:08 i say we leave bugs so that less people use such filenames 14:11:23 last i checked, errare humanum est 14:11:29 also include 0-bytes and newlines :) 14:11:59 what will you say when you accidentally delete all files starting with let*? 14:12:00 Please fix it. We have the right infrastructure in slime to do so 14:12:31 *fe[nl]ix* laughs at whoever thought of mixing pathnames and globbing 14:12:51 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:13:18 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu254.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:14:08 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@83.222.190.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:44 konr` [~user@201.82.132.104] has joined #lisp 14:14:45 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:54 I can of course accept if you say you don't have the time, or you don't care personally :-) 14:16:55 -!- bobbysmith0071 is now known as bobbysmith007 14:17:10 -!- konr` [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:10 -!- konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:07 I got abcl compiled with openjdk on a powerpc machine yesterday. 14:19:22 unfortunately, the output is too slow to use. 14:21:18 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-206-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:11 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander 14:23:31 felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:31 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:29:44 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:30:00 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 14:32:58 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:15 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:35:28 Fade: that's too bad. 14:35:59 Fade: could you send a report with your findings to the abcl development list? or give me some feedback? 14:36:12 Fade: it'll probably help getting ABCL improved. 14:42:43 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 14:46:35 well, i'm a total noob on the java front, but I have the system as built installed on my powerbook. 14:47:02 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:47:04 if there's any info I can collect, tell me what and I'll happily send it on. 14:47:53 powerje [~powerj@75.60.217.33] has joined #lisp 14:47:53 the build took 196 minutes on an unloaded 1.6ghz ppcG4 that has a gig of ram. 14:48:42 building lisp systems in abcl with the openjdk abcl jar also takes a really long time. 14:48:44 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:49 I'm not clear on how to instrument it. 14:50:30 there definaly is some wierd error 14:50:42 some hangup i mean.. in thefile loading 14:51:15 on a 1.4 hz macine with 3gb am its takes at most 5mins 14:51:33 on a 1.4 ghz machine with 3gb am its takes at most 5mins 14:51:53 oh god.. you saied 1gb 14:51:57 i suspect the openjdk 14:51:57 said 14:51:58 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:59 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-12-158.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:52:11 yup.. its a GC issue 14:52:17 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:52:35 a gig of ram isn't enough to build/run abcl? 14:52:54 knida sorta not really ;( 14:53:00 run jconsole 14:53:07 that's... dissappointing. 14:53:15 its a GUI think that will let you connect to the JVM 14:53:28 its a GUI thing that will let you connect to the JVM.. you can see what its doing with all its time 14:53:40 i suspect 90% of its time its in GC 14:54:05 i think you'll run into this with most jvm languages.. not ABCLs total fault 14:54:19 as you said its openjdk 14:54:49 though every jvm language to do some small workarrounds to make it beter 14:54:50 the only reason I tried openjdk is because it's a power pc machine. 14:55:06 openjdk is the defacto standard at the moment anyhow 14:55:13 ccl/sbcl run great on the same box. 14:55:26 'course, there's obviously no vm in either of those. 14:55:40 heh i dare you to run ACL on that machine ;) 14:55:55 I did check during the run, and the computer didn't fall into swap. 14:56:23 i think it never reaches swap becasue JVM gc's at 1/2 physical ram 14:56:47 oh oh.. nice trick.. if you can -Xmx3g .. it will build fawstrer 14:57:05 it means "dont panic GC intil 1.5 gb 14:57:22 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-221-174.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:34 atomx` [~user@92.80.100.28] has joined #lisp 14:57:38 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2553.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:57:58 very bad .. but i have been able to make a LarKC run 40% faster by -Xmx double what i will ever need 14:58:37 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:58:39 I was thinking about abcl for small java-enabled devies. 14:58:42 *devices 14:58:54 guess that's not a vialbe path. 14:58:58 i actualyl tell it -Xmx twice my physical ram.. and it never uss more than 1/2 what i tell it 14:59:30 Fade: I've been playing with kawascheme for android development. I've gotten a hello world app down to 13k 14:59:55 nice 15:00:01 -!- nuba_ [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:00:18 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:02 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:02:28 -!- cmsimon [~adfadf999@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:28 cmsimon [~adfadf999@c-24-22-113-231.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:29 -!- cmsimon is now known as Guest20968 15:02:29 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B3268EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:29 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-9-138.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:02:29 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:30 The font locking of #| |# block is pretty miserable. Any way to improve it? 15:02:30 daniel [~daniel@p5B3268EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:30 Use #|| ||# instead 15:02:31 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3610.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:31 tcr: that helps. Is that a bug in emacs lisp-mode? 15:02:31 benny` [~benny@i577A215C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:31 urandom__ [~user@p548A3610.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:31 Fade: on my machine 1 gb is enough. 15:02:31 leo2007: Yeah, don't ask me why it helps 15:02:31 oh. openjdk. well, I'm using JRockit/Sun/etc. 15:02:31 leo2007: it's a limitation of font-lock basic architecture 15:02:31 which basically sucks 15:02:32 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-221-174.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:02:32 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 15:02:32 cmm: thanks. 15:02:32 hmm. maybe we should go work with openJDK on this issue then. 15:02:32 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-9-138.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:02:33 -!- atomx [~user@92.80.100.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:02:33 Fade: I don't think openJDK is indicative of abcl's performance in that respect. 15:02:33 Fade: on Sun, it works great with default settings 15:03:03 ehu: I can believe that openjdk is exhibiting poor behaviour. 15:03:25 abcl on my workstation is fast enough that I don't notice it's running on a vm most of the time. 15:03:35 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:43 I think we need to engage with them on this issue. It's bad press for the both of us. 15:04:14 Fade: ok. that's great. so, basically, you're telling me we should warn potential users against OpenJDK :-) 15:04:22 i didnt think it would be GC or other memory issue because the computer had lots of physical ram overhead, and it didn't hit swap. 15:04:39 I had that issue once too. 15:04:51 I don't know enough about java to diagnose the issue correctly. 15:05:03 i thnk a test with -Xmx2g will tell you real quick if its GC 15:05:13 but i figured a 1.67ghz g4 with a gig of ram would be enough juice. 15:05:18 the application I was working with was running at ~95% RAM useage, but didn't claim any extra. Instead it just went to GC like a mad man. 15:05:43 jconsole will tell you how much time you are in GC vs running 15:05:45 dmiles_afk: how do I pass that parameter to the build? 15:05:48 (95% of the initial amount, which was 45% of the total) 15:06:02 *dmiles_afk* looks up the javac options 15:07:07 the sad-face issue is that openjdk runs in a lot of places that sun's jvm does not. 15:07:09 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-12-158.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:16 powerpc, f'rinstance. 15:08:02 tcr: #|| ||# fails too. 15:08:18 ah. hmm. then there may be the issues of lack of tuning too then, probably. 15:08:25 leo2007: usually works for me 15:08:47 leo2007: M-; works on a region 15:08:57 I usually use that instead of #| 15:09:56 in the 15:10:17 memoryMaximumSize="2048k" 15:10:23 Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:10:25 Draggor1 [~Draggor@adsl-99-141-179-24.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:38 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:11:03 (in the build.xml) .. but be good to make this as somehting that pulls from a .properties 15:13:07 i assume you mean "2048M"? 15:13:13 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-139.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:13:36 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 15:13:41 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-141-186-38.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:14:12 Fade, yes 15:14:47 Does cffi have a lisp type that expands down to sb-vm:word? 15:14:58 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:13 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:15:32 [javac] Since fork is false, ignoring memoryMaximumSize setting. 15:16:06 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:16:16 ok fork="true" 15:16:25 in the same clause? 15:16:27 I guess it could define it as (deftype pointer-size () `(unsigned-byte ,(foreign-type-size :long))) 15:17:20 missing (* 8 ...) 15:17:29 yes fork="true" memoryMaximumSize="2048M" 15:17:32 yeah, that causes a vm init blowup because it can't reserve enough space for the object heap. 15:17:49 ok lets try fork="true" memoryMaximumSize="1024M" 15:18:11 if that blows up try 4096M .. 15:18:29 -!- benny` is now known as benny 15:18:40 *dmiles_afk* was sure if we wnet above legal vs 2G is too small 15:18:51 well, it's running. 15:19:43 i had this issue where he -Xmx neer effects memory it was going to use or use.. just effected how often GC scavenges futilly 15:19:50 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:21:00 -Xmx never effected memory it was going to use .. it ends up scaveging gen0 too often when set too low 15:22:23 -!- Guest20968 is now known as csimon 15:22:25 -!- csimon [~adfadf999@c-24-22-113-231.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:22:25 csimon [~adfadf999@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 15:22:57 does abcl build with gjc? 15:23:27 it had in the past 15:23:28 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-139.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 15:23:39 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:24:00 i'd use excellisor jet though for that 15:24:22 it's into the lisp stuff now. 15:25:04 -Xmx neer effects memory it was going to use 15:25:05 oops 15:25:08 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:59 [java] ; Loaded #P"/home/fade/SourceCode/lisp/abcl-src-0.22.0/src/org/armedbear/lisp/compiler-pass2.lisp" (70.87 seconds) 15:26:02 http://www.excelsior-usa.com/jet.html 15:26:32 (easier to use that than gcj) 15:26:49 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:27:29 in X .. run jconsole 15:27:45 then attach the in the jconsole screen hook up to the ABCL instance 15:28:02 you can see realtime graphs of ram and GC ussauge 15:28:13 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:58 I don't think this machine has the resources to run jconsole and the build at the same time. 15:29:56 ah. there it goes 15:30:26 this is a neat tool. 15:30:59 claims heap is vascilating between 8M and 18M 15:31:17 14 threads, cpu usage around 47% 15:31:30 my startup ram i told you to use probly efualted to some horibly low figure 15:31:54 my startup ram i told you to use probly defaulted to some horibly low figure 15:32:05 nipra [~nipra@115.118.254.223] has joined #lisp 15:32:16 dmiles_afk: wasn't excelsior jet horribly expensive? 15:32:50 a tool like this for lisp would be super. 15:32:51 nope its basically free since its forever inclomplete 15:33:38 dlowe: how's the performance? 15:33:40 at least thats what excelsior jet guys are always saying.. but i think if someone wnts to buy something they dont stop it 15:33:53 anyhow, according to jconsole, the heap barely registers over 1% 15:34:06 inklesspen: dunno, really. still just in the tinkering phase 15:34:09 3.925 seconds in GC for 443 collections. 15:34:44 i wonder if you could get a java lisp working on the Kindle 15:34:56 which has Java 1.4 personal basis profile (aka, crippled) 15:34:58 memoryInitialSize="1024m" memoryMaximumSize="1600m" 15:34:59 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [] 15:35:13 though make sure you geting all the javac's 15:35:23 i thought there was more than one in there 15:35:47 anyhow, there's a performance problem /w openjdk 15:36:23 the abcl devs should check it out. I have no idea what I'm doing at this level. 15:36:34 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 15:36:37 Fade: what version of OpenJDK? 15:37:30 OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea6 1.9) (6b20-1.9-0ubuntu1) 15:37:48 openJDK Zero VM (build 17.0-b16, interpreted mode) 15:39:00 ah, IcedTea 15:39:15 also, wtf, interpreted mode? 15:39:34 no wonder "performance" problems 15:39:45 Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.7.0-ea-b108) 15:39:45 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 19.0-b05, mixed mode) 15:40:00 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:40:05 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:40:05 the only changes to the build.xml file were to set fork and memoryMaximumSize 15:41:32 Fade: have you compared the same code with non-castrated JDK? 15:41:59 it's the only jdk I can get on this machine. 15:42:04 it's a ppc mac running linux. 15:42:34 ah 15:42:41 have you tried getting J9? 15:43:03 JIT compiler: Unavailable 15:43:16 I have not. 15:43:20 xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:43:26 -!- Intensity [oGHBrQC0TQ@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:43:32 I just installed the java available to me from the ubuntu package pool. 15:44:42 Fade: Ubuntu would feed you IcedTea no matter the platform, afaik 15:45:02 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:45:26 well on my x86-64 machines, sunjava6 is in the pool. 15:45:48 which is what I used to build abcl when I first started playing with it last week. 15:45:57 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 15:46:15 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:42 which cpu it exactly is? 15:49:46 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:48 7447A, altivec supported. 1.6666.66.. MHz rev 1.2 (pvr 8003 0102) 15:50:37 hmm... I wonder how compatible it will be 15:50:58 Draggor2 [~Draggor@99.142.48.98] has joined #lisp 15:51:08 cause I found IBM's Java SE 6 runtime for POWER (32bit) 15:51:48 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 15:53:33 -!- Draggor1 [~Draggor@adsl-99-141-179-24.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:36 Fade: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/systems/library/es-apple.html https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/linux/download.html 15:56:00 thanks 15:57:19 the POWER JRE doesn't have the licensing lock of J9 for PC, fortunately 15:57:49 the processor matrix here doesn't list any g4 class cpus. 15:57:52 *p_l|home* could run J9 on his Thinkpad, but not his Acer 15:58:16 Fade: Download POWER (32bit), the first article shows how to configure it for G4 15:58:28 (so that JIT works) 15:58:52 basically you need to set it to generate PPC604 instruction 15:59:32 man. I really don't like java. 15:59:45 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 15:59:57 alas, the time I had for fiddling around with toy projects is over for today. 16:00:21 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-052-084.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 16:00:22 thanks for the links, p_l. I've bookmarked for later. 16:01:59 -!- mcspiff [8e444c1d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.142.68.76.29] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:02:05 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:50 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:06:50 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 16:07:35 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:08:00 Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:11:05 rukowen [~thehien@222.253.94.233] has joined #lisp 16:11:46 felideon` [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:48 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:37 -!- felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:15:59 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 16:16:50 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:17:50 Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:18:06 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:19:43 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-100-50.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:19:44 is there some way to build slime (ie. compile)? i have trouble compiling contribs 16:20:32 hmm, does ccl on win32 put :win32 in *features*? 16:20:47 Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:21:00 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7540c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:02 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-50-85.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:22:24 Bronsa_ [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:22:33 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:35 Xach: did ILC happen? Why has no-one (at least on planet lisp) blogged? 16:23:00 There wasn't a lot of overlap of the Planet Lisp ground and the ILC crowd. 16:23:14 fair enough (but there was you!) 16:23:14 I think gigamonkey and I were it. I intend to write, but still trying to find the time. 16:23:24 I tweeted! Tweeted like mad! 16:23:26 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:29 -!- nipra [~nipra@115.118.254.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:23:37 http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23ilc2010 16:23:37 oh, tweeting. I should get up with this newfangled technology 16:23:49 unfortunately someone else is using that hashtag 16:23:53 Is Attila ever here? 16:23:58 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-184-206-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:20 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 16:24:21 http://twitpic.com/2zyjyx <-- there i am, with rpg and paul tarvydas! 16:24:28 Xach: just checked, ccl doesn't have :win32, but it has :win32-target and :win32-host 16:24:34 pmd: thanks. 16:24:40 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-206-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:24:45 -!- gigamonkey` is now known as gigamonkey 16:25:04 and :windows 16:25:23 http://twitpic.com/2znrmc <-- half of the ALU board, gigamonkey, jerry boetje, and more... 16:25:32 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:25:43 -!- Bronsa_ [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:25:44 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:44 How long has (eq? (person 'rpg) 'dick-gabriel) ==> nil? 16:25:51 caoliver: rpg is not THAT rpg 16:25:59 http://twitpic.com/2zjuol is THAT rpg 16:26:18 Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:27:35 Ah, Xach, you finally cornered him. Good. 16:27:51 THAT rpg also posted http://www.flickr.com/photos/90204102@N00/5112643786/ of our own gigamonkey 16:28:08 Wonderful dedication :) 16:28:15 in that photo he is holding an invisible brandy snifter 16:28:39 twitter seems to suggest the conference was in Reno, Indonesia 16:28:45 MORE LISPY MACROS 16:29:01 minion: chant 16:29:01 MORE LISPY MACROS 16:29:31 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:29:55 Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:30:06 http://www.flickr.com/photos/90204102@N00/5112631778/ <-- dan weinreb daydreaming about statice, and http://www.flickr.com/photos/90204102@N00/5112481294/ <-- pascal costanza working on a project in eclipse, no doubt... 16:36:10 it's nice to see that apparently there was a lot of female interest at ILC. 16:36:22 unless this photostream is an amalgam of different things. 16:36:30 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:36:32 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:36:33 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:44 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441951.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 16:36:54 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5168-ipngn2901marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:37:11 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:38:49 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-143.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:40:29 http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/transcript-of-marco-barringers-ucw-hello-world-movie/  is that screencast still available online somewhere? 16:40:37 (whether seeded or via http) 16:41:03 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 16:42:12 it's on youtube 16:42:14 xach: Who is http://www.flickr.com/photos/90204102@N00/5111779639/in/set-72157625233406206/? 16:42:23 i dunno if the high resolution .mov file is still floating around. 16:42:29 it's pretty out of date, though. 16:43:41 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:46:20 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:43 Are there any videos of the talks at ILC2010? 16:47:13 -!- bandu is now known as coyo 16:47:53 Fade: Would you recommend anything more up to date on the subject? 16:48:39 the only current documentation for ucw as it stands, is the gettingstarted.txt file in the repo. 16:48:58 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:49:06 nipra [~nipra@115.118.236.224] has joined #lisp 16:49:07 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:08 the stuff you can find online will give you the gist of the way ucw works, but the fine details will often be wrong. 16:49:31 well, the gettingstarted.txt and the source code itself. 16:49:34 Thx. 16:49:38 the source is fairly well documented. 16:51:16 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-68.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:51:17 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-68.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:51:42 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-98-73.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:51:43 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E2638C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:49 the startup script in particular, as referenced in segv's movie doesn't exist anymore. 16:52:38 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:52:45 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:52:58 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-68.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:53:03 Uhm. 16:53:47 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-98-73.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:56:36 does filtered dispatch support filtered :before, :after and :around ? 16:56:48 that is, only call them if the filter matches? 16:58:20 -!- rukowen [~thehien@222.253.94.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:58:53 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-68.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:09 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-56-19.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 16:59:18 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-177-68.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:00:20 sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has joined #lisp 17:00:25 drdo: Steve Sears of Franz videoed everything. 17:00:34 -!- lanthan_afh_ [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:00:36 However whether he will be able to publish them to the world is unknown. 17:01:31 caoliver: someone from the SPLASH conference, I guess. 17:03:22 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:05:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:05:27 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 17:05:46 caoliver: I think he was one of the SPLASH organizers 17:07:13 gigamonkey: What would stop him? 17:07:23 gigamonkey: I hope Sears will be able to. Some folk (me) don't get around much. 17:08:10 drdo: well, the ACM (which puts on SPLASH of which the ILC was ostensibly part) likes to get their IP claws into everything. 17:08:28 [sigh!] 17:08:44 That's something i dislike about the lisp community 17:08:53 drdo: Not getting around much? 17:09:14 Everyone for some reason is using a mac too 17:09:23 (utility-of-institution 'acm (get-current-time)) ==> nil. 17:10:29 and the macs seem more fluid than anything else i seen. 17:10:35 why's that ? 17:10:44 because of the os or the hardware ? 17:10:53 what do you mean with fluid? 17:11:35 I think the discussion of mac fluidity will be more profitably conducted privately. 17:11:45 /join #os-wars 17:11:49 ah 17:11:50 i think he means he blends them into a fluid 17:11:50 lol 17:12:07 Will it blend? ;P 17:12:28 With judicious aqua regia. 17:12:45 no i mean it's just working whitout any slowdown even when rendering menu effects etc... 17:13:00 homie: i own a macbook and i can tell you that isn't true :) 17:13:06 oh 17:13:08 ok 17:13:12 parenscript is a lispy language for javascript. cl-who is a lispy language for html. what do you guys use as a lispy language for SQL? 17:13:17 then my impression seems to be falsified 17:13:28 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:29 my biggest issue with it though is that it resembles a prison 17:13:42 inklesspen: i use s-sql sometimes. part of postmodern. 17:13:51 inklesspen: s-sql, sometimes 17:14:10 apple's policy is pretty much "Use this like i tell you to and shut up" 17:14:32 excellent, that's what I thought. either of you use s-sql to create tables? if so, do you use postmodern's deftable macro? 17:14:40 inklesspen: no 17:14:47 homie: I suspect that would depend on the complexity of the rendering and how much can be offloaded to the GPU. 17:15:13 Xach: how do you create tables in your app? 17:15:17 drdo: or why I'm on a Toshiba running slackware for my lisping. 17:15:25 inklesspen: i write table definitions into a file, load the files 17:15:26 or do you just have a sql dump you load into the DB? 17:15:31 ah, thanks 17:15:56 caoliver: would anything induce you to go to a meeting of lisp nerds? 17:16:00 caoliver: I bought this macbook with some very wrong ideas about what it would be like 17:16:25 not purchasing an apple product ever again 17:16:26 drdo: A friend of mine, after removing system-supplied keyboard layout, found a message about "obvious attempt to work around Apple's B&D programming" in the logs 17:17:06 gigamonkey: any plans to post slides from your talk? Sounds like it was quite interesting 17:17:07 *p_l|home* will admit to looking at getting a one sometimes, but mostly because they have obvious single place to buy them 17:17:47 xach: while I'd enjoy such a thing, current hardship makes it unlikely in the near future. 17:17:52 I wouldn't recommend this to anyone, except perhaps someone who likes being used by his machines, instead of using them 17:17:53 starseeker: There were no slides. I'm working on getting the audio up somewhere. 17:18:03 gigamonkey: ah, cool :-) 17:18:16 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:28 gigamonkey: did you get the standardization process restarted? :-P 17:18:31 -!- nipra [~nipra@115.118.236.224] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:18:41 Nah, Xach's taking care of that with Quicklisp. 17:19:29 -!- felideon` [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:19:37 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-93-57.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:19:38 At a fraction of the cost! 17:19:38 *starseeker* needs to take a closer look at Quicklisp 17:19:53 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:19:56 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19:57 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:08 *Xach* can't wait to become rich and famous, like the people involved with the previous standardization effort 17:20:24 hehe 17:21:03 lol 17:21:44 gigamonkey: your talk could have concluded with an 80s-movie-style "where are they now" set. 17:22:52 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 17:23:14 silenius [~silenus@rrcs-64-183-24-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:38 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-052-084.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:23:52 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.100.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:03 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-063-150.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 17:26:00 Jkac [~aeshtaer@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 17:27:03 Anybody here? I have a stupid question to ask. 17:27:21 Jkac: what's up? 17:27:24 What? I just noticed the ILC2010's Program Chair is a teacher at my univ 17:27:40 Can I ask a noobie question? 17:27:45 Jkac: ask away. 17:28:05 drdo: I got a chance to talk to him for quite a while at thursday's dinner. Very nice fellow with a lot of interesting stories. 17:29:12 Xach: Well, I tried to install the cl-irc package with asdf, but during compile a get a failure: «Symbol "FLEXI-STREAM-ENCODING-ERROR" not found in the FLEXI-STREAMS package.» 17:29:41 Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:29:42 Jkac: asdf-install, you mean? you might have outdated versions of flexi-streams, cl-irc, or both. 17:30:10 shamelessly promote quicklisp! :) 17:30:23 drdo: I need to talk to him about releasing Linj. He said he was up for it. 17:30:49 -!- sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 17:31:12 Xach: I know he has been working on that for a long time 17:31:36 Xach: The installer dl'd everything. 17:31:40 drdo: He said he hasn't used it lately and that it only targets an old Java, I said people would be interested in it anyway. 17:32:15 Jkac: you had nothing installed before? 17:32:16 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:32:38 Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:32:44 Nope. Like I said, noobie, sorry. Just the stuff that comes with SBCL. 17:33:12 Jkac: No problem, just trying to figure it out. It looks like the cl-irc installable with asdf-install doesn't work with the latest flexi-streams. 17:33:26 Jkac: I wrote a program that's meant to avoid problems like that for libraries, you up for giving it a try? 17:34:41 Sure. 17:34:53 What do I do? 17:35:23 delete ~/.sbcl/site/flexi-streams.asd and cl-irc.asd, first off 17:35:35 then grab http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp and load it into sbcl. it'll tell you how to proceed. 17:35:42 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:35:44 after it's installed, you can (ql:quickload "cl-irc") and it'll get what you need. 17:35:55 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:56 Alright, I'll give that a shot. 17:36:00 sorry, ~/.sbcl/systems/*.asd, not ~/.sbcl/site/ 17:36:09 sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has joined #lisp 17:36:15 Jkac: you can read more about it here: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 17:36:26 *Xach* hopes that wasn't *too* shameless 17:36:42 Oh... I was doing a system-wide install, not a home install, could that be an issue? 17:36:56 Jkac: no, that just changes what files you should delete. 17:37:10 Jkac: installing in your home directory would still not work. 17:37:29 Alright. 17:39:00 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-12-158.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:39:40 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-12-158.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:27 aifnord [~aifnord@79-133-4-112.bredband.aland.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:54 Xach: are we finally getting LinJ 2.0? And released, open source, without the current restrictions? 17:40:56 pdo [~pdo@62.56.60.2] has joined #lisp 17:41:30 p_l|home: My impression from our discussion is that he doesn't use it any more and it would need updates to be useful with modern Java. 17:41:49 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:03 Got the same error. Bleh. 17:42:17 Xach: there are few things missing, yes 17:42:28 Jkac: That suggests to me that it's finding your old cl-irc. 17:42:30 generics and declarations mostly 17:42:51 Jkac: if you do (describe (find-system 'cl-irc)) does it say what directory it's in? 17:43:05 Jkac: oh, you'll also need to restart your sbcl session to clear out the asdf system cache. 17:43:13 (there might be an easier way, but i don't know what it is) 17:44:30 Bronsa_ [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:44:47 -!- Bronsa_ [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:44:53 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:13 Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:45:21 Xach: find-system is undefined. I'm doing something pretty wrong... I'll try wiping the whole cl-irc directory instead of just the .asd, maybe. 17:45:52 ok, at the risk of sounding stupid, does anyone know how you use libraries? I'm trying to play around a bit with sdl, but when I do something like: (sdl:with-init () ... ) it (SLIME/sbcl/...) complains: package "SDL" not found 17:46:16 Jkac: no, sorry, I told you wrong. (asdf:find-system ...) 17:46:41 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:42 aifnord: you'll have to load something that defines the sdl package. lispbuilder-sdl, maybe. 17:47:36 *Xach* feels another shameless plug coming on 17:47:45 ^^ 17:47:50 hmm 17:48:00 It says it's in /sbcl/site/cl-irc-blablabla/cl-irc.asd So I'll rm that too. 17:48:06 aifnord: (ql:quickload 'lispbuilder-sdl) ;) 17:48:10 aifnord: one easy way to do that is by installing quicklisp http://www.quicklisp.org/ and then using (ql:quickload "lispbuilder-sdl") 17:48:22 I did install lispbuilder-sdl with the asdf-thingie, and I could run the example (mandelbrot) 17:48:32 Jkac: If you just installed it and don't really have anything, you can just delete it all 17:48:54 Xach & sykopomp: I'll have a look at that, thanks :) 17:48:55 aifnord: oh? did you restart your lisp in the meantime? 17:49:12 aifnord: keep in mind that you need to load code -before- you can do sdl:foo 17:49:24 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 17:49:30 You should probably tell them about ASDF 17:50:17 Xach: yep, I opened a new emacs and created a simple test.lisp-file which I hoped I could just run fairly straight-forward 17:50:31 aifnord: No, not quite. I wrote a little tutorial about that... 17:50:44 http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html is it 17:50:55 it's a little outdated, though. i need to write an update or a new one. 17:51:32 aifnord: basically there are tools (ASDF in particular) you can use to make sure everything your application or library needs is loaded when you want to load your application. 17:51:42 ASDF is a little like "make" 17:52:04 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:52:26 hmm, alright 17:53:23 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:07 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:47 The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:17 Well, it seems to have worked this time. Thanks, Xach. 17:55:29 Jkac: glad to hear it. that livejournal link is for you, too. 17:55:44 Ah, I'll take a look. 17:55:44 Jkac: it's not enough to just download and load the stuff once. you have to arrange for it to be easily reloadable. 17:55:53 hm? 17:56:13 reloadable in the sense of getting it into a new lisp session 17:56:15 I did the thing to put quicklisp in the init file if you mean that. 17:56:23 Oh. 17:56:33 That makes quicklisp available, but say you write a cl-irc application or library. 17:56:34 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:57:02 So you mean that cl-irc is available for me to use in the current SBCL session, but it's not installed on my computer for later? 17:57:17 Jkac: not exactly. It's on your computer, but not automatically part of a future SBCL session. 17:57:38 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:57:40 Jkac: and if you write a program that uses it, there's a way to make the loading of your program trigger an automatic load of supporting libraries like cl-irc. 17:58:31 It's the require function, right? 17:58:44 It amounts to writing a system file (usually named whatever.asd) that describes the files in your project, and their relationship to other systems. 17:58:56 Jkac: that works on sbcl, usually. 17:59:23 Huh.. 17:59:40 Well right now I'm at the package chapter of "Practical Common Lisp". Does it cover that stuff? 18:00:44 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:01:07 Jkac: I don't think it covers ASDF or system definition in general, but I can't remember. 18:01:20 Jkac: you don't have to know a lot to get started, though. that livejournal link aims to give you that first step. 18:01:24 Well, if not, I dl'd the stumpwm code to look at, I can figure it out from the asdf, though. 18:01:29 Alright, I'll keep that in mind. 18:01:32 Thanks a million. 18:01:33 -!- Jkac [~aeshtaer@69.166.35.201] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:04:56 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:20 -!- pdo [~pdo@62.56.60.2] has quit [Quit: pdo] 18:05:51 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:06:26 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:08:55 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.69.127] has joined #lisp 18:11:30 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:22 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:15:34 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host14-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:17:22 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3610.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:18:57 drewc: by the way -- the similarity between Kernel and Io (smalltalk-like, prototype-based language) is pretty interesting. The way Io passes messages around is similar to the way kernel passes code around and evaluates it in a particular environment. So much so that, considering Kernel environments are first class, things like 'obj myField' == '(eval my-var env)' 18:19:37 drewc: which seems to have all sorts of interesting implications -- both for what you can do, and what 'good ideas' are as far as designing programs in, and implementing, either language. 18:19:56 Jkac: there's a short bit about ASDF starting at page 475 of PCL. 18:20:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:20:31 adding a namespace/module system to such a language is dead simple, for example. 18:21:03 jdz [~jdz@host49-111-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:21:36 yan_ [~asym@srtd.org] has joined #lisp 18:25:05 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.235.78] has joined #lisp 18:25:31 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.235.78] has left #lisp 18:25:46 sykopomp: yeah... the similarity between function application and message passing is what brought us scheme in the first place. Hewitt is of the opinion that scheme got it wrong. Kernel may indeed be closer to getting it 'right' :) 18:26:25 drewc: I'd heard of the similarity, but I think it took first-class environments and explicit evaluation to really make it click. 18:27:36 -!- atomx` [~user@92.80.100.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:28:26 drewc: What does Hewitt think Scheme got wrong? 18:28:39 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:29:31 that function application + continuations is equivalent to message passing, to put it simply and slightly inaccurately 18:30:48 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-146-77.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:54 hm 18:32:59 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-28-197.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 18:33:31 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:01 I'm trying to load cl-flash with asdf but it asks for cl-truetype which I can't find anywhere ? 18:36:33 i believe it's called zpb-ttf 18:37:15 ok, I'll try that, thanks 18:39:44 konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has joined #lisp 18:45:08 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:49:04 davidbe [~user@91.86.194.151] has joined #lisp 18:50:24 -!- silenius [~silenus@rrcs-64-183-24-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:51:20 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441951.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:51:36 It still asks for cl-truetype although zpb-ttf is also written by Xach, like cl-flash ? 18:52:44 prljavi_hari: cl-flash is dead, sorry. 18:52:55 Is there some other library for translating to flash/actionscript ? 18:52:56 and cl-truetype is long gone. 18:53:01 prljavi_hari: yes 18:53:21 prljavi_hari: 3b-swf seems to be for that 18:53:24 there's ongoing work on 3bil 18:53:26 and 3bil 18:53:44 3b-swf was for manipulating the files, I think? 18:53:55 ok, thanks 18:54:00 oh. 18:54:06 http://github.com/3b has the stuff i've heard of. 18:54:27 Xach: asdf uses (getenv "APPDATA") in windows, which at least keeps things under the same place (AppData\Roaming) no matter what the application returns for (user-homedir-pathname). could quicklisp do the same? 18:55:00 pmd: Maybe. 18:56:54 Xach: it's because some implementations return "C:\Users\\", others "C:\Users\\AppData\Roaming" as the (user-homedir-pathname) 18:57:20 i recon APPDATA is only set under Vista and 7 18:57:55 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 18:58:09 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:58:20 but i believe the inconsistency does not happen in XP, i think they all return "C:\Documents and Settings\" 18:58:35 manby-ace_ [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:09:04 araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has joined #lisp 19:09:12 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has quit [Changing host] 19:09:12 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:09:55 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-146-77.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 19:12:03 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rread] 19:13:32 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 19:15:34 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:19 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:19:15 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:14 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:21:42 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:24:47 -!- boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:26:18 boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 19:29:27 pmd: that's not exactly true 19:29:34 Roaming profiles exist on XP as well 19:30:59 hun [~hun@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:40 Brit [~redline65@64.238.98.14] has joined #lisp 19:32:49 -!- strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:33:44 strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:16 So I'm having a very strange problem loading a weblocks app. http://paste.lisp.org/display/115895 19:35:38 Compilation fails due to an undefined-function but that function is defined later in the file. 19:36:11 Suggestions? Is this somehow being escalated from a style-warning to a full error? 19:37:01 how do you use valid-email? 19:37:58 I pass it with the function shortcut (ie. #'valid-email). 19:38:22 ok, what do you pass it to? 19:38:23 astalla: It's the initarg to the view definition for a web form. 19:39:16 astalla: The relevant file, http://github.com/redline6561/clockwork/blob/master/src/forms.lisp 19:39:50 Brit: hmm, ok, I don't know weblocks, but it looks like the view definition macro tries to evaluate that argument at compile-time 19:40:35 either putting the defun before it, or passing the VALID-EMAIL symbol rather than the function, should solve your problem 19:40:43 astalla: Gotcha. Well, it's easy enough to fix. I'll just move it up in the file. Couldn't figure out if sbcl's settings were getting fiddled with somewhere or not. 19:40:55 astalla: Ah. I'll try passing the symbol first. Thanks. 19:41:03 no, if sbcl says it's an error, it's an error :) 19:41:17 if you pass the symbol, you get slightly different semantics 19:41:35 the function call will always go through the symbol indirection 19:41:46 astalla: Well, I could just pass a lambda that passes its sole argument to valid-email, right? 19:41:59 that's even another option 19:42:07 but in general using the symbol is fine 19:42:22 astalla: Right. Well, good. Thanks again! :) 19:42:58 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 19:42:59 if you use the symbol, it'll probably be very slightly slower, but otoh will support redefinition of the function 19:44:10 astalla: Duly noted. How would that compare to the overhead of an additional function call in the case of using a lambda? 19:44:27 zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 19:44:38 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 19:44:55 zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 19:45:18 Brit: I don't know it to that level of detail. But in any case it doesn't matter unless perhaps if you call that function in a very tight loop. 19:45:42 Brit: you're doing a web application.. i highly doubt function call overhead is your bottleneck 19:45:45 astalla: Yep. I was just curious. 19:47:21 sure. It probably also depends on the implementation. 19:48:33 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.69.127] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:49:09 kenanb [~user@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 19:52:18 drewc: Definitely not! Performance isn't a concern yet anyway. Hope UCW stuff is going well. 19:52:27 -!- Brit [~redline65@64.238.98.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:53:08 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.235.211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:31 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050069125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:09 UCW is stable and happily running my production code. Beyond that i don't use it much anymore.. i don't like frameworks these days. 19:55:16 -!- powerje [~powerj@75.60.217.33] has quit [Quit: powerje] 19:55:17 astalla: going through symbol is not slower; actually sometimes it's even faster 19:55:43 -!- hun [~hun@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55:57 jdz: how can it be faster? isn't it one extra indirection at least? 19:56:06 drewc: what's hip in drewcland these days, then? :P 19:56:13 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 19:57:03 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 19:57:12 monads! 19:57:19 sykopomp: i have a collection of simple libraries that, when put together, act very much like a framework, but that also all work very well in isolation and don't force you into a certain paradigm 19:57:39 and yes, monads are involved in various guises :) 19:57:43 :) 19:58:46 and you have awesome naming scheme 19:58:49 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:02 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:47 -!- davidbe [~user@91.86.194.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:33 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255942.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:06:14 mega1: What does your ai contest nick mean? 20:06:45 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-100-50.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:06:57 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-81-45.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:07:52 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:09:12 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:13 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has left #lisp 20:09:56 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:32 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:50 sepp2k [~sexy@p548CDCF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:04 chaslemley [~chaslemle@208.44.170.2] has joined #lisp 20:21:22 -!- chaslemley [~chaslemle@208.44.170.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:32 astalla: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/e6b35b20b559249c 20:23:33 i have not noted that he was talking about Crays, though... 20:23:42 probably should re-read the whole thread 20:23:44 jdz: he has said similar things about other stuff 20:23:54 *drewc* gets bit by strict evaluation 20:24:00 Xach: yeah, but i'm hard at work searching 20:24:07 my brain his been polluted! 20:24:10 has* 20:25:52 drewc: time for some delay/force/lazy? 20:26:27 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050069125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:26:30 nowadays i rarely use the FUNCTION special form 20:27:36 maybe only for local functions actually 20:27:37 sykopomp: nah, just a conditional and some extra code :) 20:28:40 hmmm.... haven't heard of Cray port of ACL 20:29:25 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-240-084.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 20:29:38 p_l|home: probably because it might have been implemented for a single customer? :) 20:29:44 (i have no idea, really) 20:30:55 urandom__ [~user@p548A4126.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:55 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E2638C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:03 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 20:32:03 Xach: oh, i think i have misattributed this message to Duane: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/9420833bd899d6d9 20:32:30 astalla: that link is the one i was looking for ^^^ 20:33:11 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:54 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:01 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 20:38:56 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:38:58 jdz: thanks, interesting reads, both articles 20:39:23 the conventional wisdom is wrong then 20:40:48 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 20:41:21 jeti [~user@p548EBE7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:19 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:47:25 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:33 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:10 i'd say, use symbols unless it's a lexical function or if your implementation doesn't coerce function arguments that are called repeatedly (eg. mapcar, reduce, etc) 20:50:06 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:19 astalla: you only want to be bitten once by storing function objects in tables or somewhere else 20:53:40 astalla: and then wondering why your stuff does not work even if you fix a function 20:53:48 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:53:59 yeah, I've been bitten by that ;) 20:54:03 zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:54:08 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-28-197.xnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54:20 so it's safe to use function objects for CL functions, lambdas, and local functions 20:55:04 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:55:06 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:20 in other cases you can't just blindly use the function objects (as i have seen done in some code, like weblocks) 20:56:05 meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-052-140.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:26 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-063-150.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:58:59 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:59:02 well, you can, but then they behave like CL functions, lambdas, and local functions... they can't be redefined 20:59:45 astalla: yes, and it's OK as long as that's what you intended 21:01:16 but usually when programming in lisp people expect redefined things to be picked up 21:01:33 anyway, it's an issue that lispniks should be aware of 21:01:55 and there is no reason to fear the "extra indirection" 21:02:11 yeah, I agree 21:02:17 -!- hypercube31 [~hypercube@66.90.18.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:05:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:10:22 -!- jdz [~jdz@host49-111-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:11:17 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.94] has joined #lisp 21:13:17 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:14:10 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-213.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:32 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has 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21:56:15 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:56:21 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 21:56:41 shame on me... the implementations that were giving appdata\roaming as the user-homedir-pathname happen to check the env-var "HOME", which apparently emacs is setting... 21:56:57 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:06 so i have different results whether i'm launching lisps from slime or directly... 21:57:28 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:27 can i prevent this behaviour in emacs, or must i just unset the variable? 22:00:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:00:56 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:00:57 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 22:01:31 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:01:44 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu254.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:01:57 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 22:03:26 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-56-19.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 22:03:51 or yet, set HOME to %USERPROFILE% 22:04:58 -!- manby-ace_ [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: manby-ace_] 22:06:03 Mmmm. I'm getting "WARNING: No sampling progress; possibly a profiler bug." from SBCL 1.0.41 on OS X when I use with-profiling. 22:06:16 Any ideas? 22:06:45 This is on some code that takes >5 seconds to run. 22:06:56 Yet I'm getting 0 samples. 22:07:35 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:08:36 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:28 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:09:33 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:09:48 gigamonkey: jsnell explained it to me once, but i can't remember the issue. i always use start-/stop-profiling and report as a result. 22:13:18 kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:23 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:06 -!- meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-052-140.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:16:33 rntz [~rntz@ASPHODEL.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:16:38 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:23 is there a shorter (non-implementation-specific) way to concatenate strings in CL than (concatenate 'string [string...])? 22:18:26 (format nil "~@{~a~}" ...) works too but isn't much shorter. 22:19:24 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-240-084.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:19:28 yeah, and rather more uninformative :/ oh well, time to create a helper function 22:19:34 rntz: define a strcat macro or function and use that... 22:19:37 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.219.234] has joined #lisp 22:19:44 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:48 whoops. two minds with but a single thought... 22:20:14 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:21:00 Xach: looking at the expansion of WITH-PROFILING seems like that's what it does. 22:21:58 Yet, what you said works. Weird. 22:22:25 gigamonkey: ISTR some issues with thread-specific profiling on OS X. 22:24:34 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:25:28 Hmmm. Doing start-profiling, etc. from within SLIME seems to be profiling the SWANK thread. 22:25:36 Which is not really what I'm interested in. :-( 22:26:11 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:27:04 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:55 I thought there was an :all-threads option or similar 22:30:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:32:03 :threads :all. But doesn't seem to have had much effect. 22:33:10 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:33:19 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:24 Plus I often get this weird stack trace when I try to start the profiler with :mode :time http://paste.lisp.org/display/115904 22:41:19 bgs100_ [~ian@h147.41.186.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:38 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-48-13.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:38 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-65-48-13.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:41:38 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:42:51 -!- bgs100_ [~ian@h147.41.186.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:43:10 bgs100_ [~ian@h147.41.186.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:58 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:45:33 -!- bgs100_ is now known as bgs100 22:46:28 how did you get there ? 22:46:30 -!- bgs100 [~ian@h147.41.186.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:46:30 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:47:03 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:36 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:58 homie: was that to me? 22:50:10 jep 22:50:10 I used (start-profiling :mode :time :threads :all) 22:50:16 But it doesn't happen every time. 22:51:07 Hmmm. It does seem to happen right after every (reset) or (stop-profiling) 22:51:19 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:53:09 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:17 kenanb [~user@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 22:55:36 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu254.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:57:10 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4126.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:31 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-93-57.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:59:43 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 23:04:11 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:09:38 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:17:09 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-32-82-254-21-5.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:42 Intensity [5JMDiOLCZy@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 23:19:16 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-81-45.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:20:14 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-150-253.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:20:49 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-104-253.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:21:35 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:21:55 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:23:42 jga [~gajon@189.253.56.122] has joined #lisp 23:23:43 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.219.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:24:05 drdo` [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:25:35 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:30:52 gigamonkey: it seems the profiler is trying to run a function in the context of another thread, guessing from sb-sys:invoke-interruption 23:31:18 perhaps interrupting native threads isn't such a great deal as it is for lisp-scheduled processes 23:32:36 (my 2 cents) 23:34:26 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:34:54 -!- jeti [~user@p548EBE7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 23:34:57 pmd: Thanks. Maybe some SBCL profiler wizard will help me out later. 23:35:11 I can't imagine I'm the first person to try to profile on OS X. 23:35:16 are patches in the sources applied already when buildin sbcl ? 23:35:55 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:39:13 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:41:19 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.38.70] has joined #lisp 23:42:43 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:00 -!- jga [~gajon@189.253.56.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:43:26 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:45:18 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:27 Is there some secure mathematical expression string -> s-expression reader? 23:46:53 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-146-77.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:48:00 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.235.211] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:48:47 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:57 kenanb [~user@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 23:49:49 Modius: define 'secure' 23:49:55 and 'mathematical expression string' 23:51:14 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:51:21 a+3*7. By secure meaning written to be able to withstand malicious input. 23:52:08 Parentheses too 23:52:46 Modius: refer to some programming textbook. I recall it as a common Stack-related exercise 23:52:59 DepthSort [~DepthSort@69-165-156-229.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:11 -!- DepthSort [~DepthSort@69-165-156-229.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 23:53:18 I just wondered if someone had made a secured one in a standard libary. Yes, I could write it mysefl thanks 23:53:30 (you just need to change the output routine from PN or RPN) 23:53:52 minion: tell Modius about infix 23:53:52 Modius: have a look at infix: Infix reader-macro by Mark Kantrowitz. http://www.cliki.net/infix 23:54:53 fe[nl]ix: that hits the issue of always-interning reader 23:55:01 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.210] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:59:19 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]