00:00:07 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.126.223] has left #lisp 00:00:28 hmmm... this might be a weird question - has anyone of you ver encountered a clearer representation for method specialization syntax than the one used by CLOS? I am not talking about shorthands like cl-def or defstar, but "simpler" for someone who never used CLOS before. I recall Dylan used similar model, but I have no experience with it 00:01:53 (it's for a macro/function set that would ultimately expand into CL:DEFMETHOD - I am just wondering whether to leave DEFMETHOD's lambda list as-is, or play around... can't figure something nicer easily) 00:02:47 pmd: in Kernel (if i read correctly) you may evaluate Fexpr arguments in whatever environment you want 00:03:29 -!- tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:03:37 that is, Fexprs take their arguments without evaluating them and you may use 'eval' with any environment as the second parameter 00:04:28 isn't that dangerous? 00:05:28 A hard question to answer. 00:06:45 There are Scheme implementations where the usual special forms are applicable. 00:07:09 That is, you can do things like (map if ...) 00:07:40 And typing 'if' at the repl just returns: 00:07:58 Is it useful? is it dangerous? i don't really know. 00:10:45 #'if => # 00:10:48 (SBCL) 00:12:06 pmd: fexprs evaluate their bodies in their original lexical environments by default. 00:12:36 pmd: but vau-expressions receive their -dynamic- environments as arguments when they are executed. You may evaluate code in that context, as well. 00:12:51 There is at least one thing i like in Kernel, it allows definitions anywhere. 00:13:00 not to mention, you can pass arbitrary environments to the vau-expression (or bind them somewhere), and evaluate code in -those- 00:13:22 Libet: you can't do (map if ...) 00:13:26 Or at least there is no: "You can do it here and only here because i need to turn it into a letrec" like most Scheme implementations do. 00:13:32 you -must- pass an applicative to higher-order functions. 00:13:35 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.5.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:13:40 you can do (map (wrap if) ..) though. 00:13:54 sykopomp: I didn't mean Kernel, just talking about dangerous features in general. 00:14:17 (the particular implementation that permits it is Elk Scheme) 00:19:00 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx62-2a-213.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:21:42 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21:45 Time to sleep, have fun! :) 00:21:58 -!- Libet [~Libet@83.33.151.140] has quit [] 00:22:07 timack [~tim@hlfx62-2a-213.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 00:26:05 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:26:49 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:26:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: ZzzzzZZzzzz....] 00:27:30 Why the fuck does maphash not collect the results of the lambda into a list and return it? 00:27:32 fpletz [~fpletz@2001:7f0:3003:42:ccc:acab:ed:23] has joined #lisp 00:28:52 Why the fuck should it? 00:29:05 corny [corny@brezn.muc.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 00:29:29 it should map from one set into another 00:30:48 -!- konr is now known as konr-temp 00:31:05 -!- konr-temp [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:25 deine mudda mapreduced! 00:31:36 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.156] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:31:39 repetition does not an argument make 00:31:54 jomatv6 [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has joined #lisp 00:32:28 hi jomatv6, i saw your mudda today 00:33:16 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-178-106.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 00:33:32 so, about fexpr arg evaluation, only the dynamic environment can be changed, right? 00:33:49 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:20 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:34:31 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@240-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:34:52 pmd: Its parents can't, iiuc. 00:35:05 but you can change the lexical environment of the vau-expression itself. 00:36:25 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.232] has joined #lisp 00:36:49 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:37:12 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has left #lisp 00:37:24 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 00:39:02 suffice to say that it's easier to implement a collecting-maphash using a non-collecting maphash than the other way around 00:40:40 buh 00:41:14 -!- fpletz [~fpletz@2001:7f0:3003:42:ccc:acab:ed:23] has left #lisp 00:44:24 http://www.manning.com/rahien/ look at the sample chapters; someone took Lisp macros to NET 00:45:23 tcr: do the sample chapters have the quasiquote-like syntax for Boo macros? 00:46:10 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@wsip-70-166-115-251.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:46:13 yeah I guess so the 6th one I briefly glanced through 00:46:40 antivigilante [~antivigil@wsip-70-166-115-251.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:48 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:59 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 00:47:20 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:49:11 adeht: all the map function I encountered until now did this. 00:49:22 tama [~tama@ip65-46-142-190.z142-46-65.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:44 sepi: how about mapc, mapl, map with nil result-type? 00:51:58 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:52:42 if I wanted to collect while iterating through a hash-table, I'd first consider loop 00:53:23 lnostdal [~Lars@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:09 -!- emma is now known as EMMA 01:01:25 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:06 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:38 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@wsip-70-166-115-251.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:07:27 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:36 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:11:41 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:09 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:13 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:16:40 konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has joined #lisp 01:16:53 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:19:49 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:20:08 -!- serichse` [~user@e179103092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:21:01 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:22:01 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:22:28 -!- konr is now known as konr-temp 01:22:31 -!- konr-temp [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:28 konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has joined #lisp 01:24:37 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:25:18 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.228] has joined #lisp 01:28:45 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 01:29:45 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:30 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:34:33 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756359.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:51 adeht: I was thinking of map functions in every other languages like python, scheme, perl, haskell, ruby, javascript, erlang, ocaml, etc 01:35:23 I was thinking of map functions in Common Lisp 01:36:31 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:35 I guess all other languages do map in insane ways. 01:37:38 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:38:47 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:21 in Common Lisp it's idiomatic to use "map-xxx" naming not just to collect stuff, but also to iterate over a structure 01:41:48 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:42:34 maphash not collecting makes sense, it's supposed to operate on hash-tables, so you can easily change them from within of the iterating function 01:44:17 (and maphash does map from the set of its possible arguments to the set {nil} ;) 01:44:44 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.228] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:48:06 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 01:49:47 stassats: you can do that with list as well.. e.g., (map-into list function list).. 01:49:58 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:11 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 01:50:52 and with vectors 01:51:07 (and even with arrays) 01:55:40 map-into is quite a useful function, seems under-used 01:56:14 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255942.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:57:27 It's just that my understanding of a formal mathematical map is also that it should map between sets of same cardinality 01:57:50 i usually underuse collecting map functions because of copying 01:58:05 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:34 sepi: that makes no sense 01:59:55 adeht: why not? 02:00:46 perhaps because your understanding is wrong? 02:01:27 sepi: it may be helpful if you give an example of such a function 02:01:49 and explain how it maps from one set to another set with the same cardinality 02:03:01 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:03:13 (length (remove-duplicates (mapcar #'integer-length (loop for i to 99 collect i)))) => 8 02:03:46 adeht: maybe a rotation that maps from one plane to another plane 02:04:30 sepi: I mean a function in one of {python, scheme, perl, haskell, ruby, javascript, erlang, ocaml, ...} that you were referring to 02:05:40 adeht: map in all these languages 02:06:10 sepi: now explain how it maps from one set to another set with the same cardinality 02:07:02 adeht: interpreting the input and output lists as sets, you will have sets with the same cardinality 02:07:55 this is of course, nonsense 02:08:02 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7252f1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:08:19 (mapcar (constantly 123) '(1 2 3)) 02:08:29 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7273c4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:21 sepi: i think you forgot that sets contain distinct elements 02:09:27 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.228] has joined #lisp 02:09:31 (defgeneric fmap (function mappable &rest more-mappables)) 02:09:36 all your problems are solved. 02:09:41 have a field day or something. 02:09:47 stassats: that's true 02:10:11 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.241.155.238] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:34 sykopomp: all problems can be solved by another level of indirection 02:11:21 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:12:39 whatever, I might just be too used to the more recent convention what map means 02:12:50 in programming languages 02:13:21 such as map not being necessarily sequential? 02:13:25 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:14:06 trying to generalize similar in different programming languages doesn't seem good 02:14:17 similar things 02:14:21 the Common Lisp convention is that map = iterating over a structure, while you think it also implies collecting values 02:14:39 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Nighty night] 02:16:16 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 02:19:52 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_m.htm <- look up "mapping" 02:20:05 *p_l|home* just imagined MAP over a tree using breadth-first strategy... it's still correct, yes? 02:20:48 yes.. it's called an "object-traversing function" 02:21:06 p_l|home: (map function tree) 02:21:09 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_o.htm <- look up object-traversing 02:21:17 IPS ftw. 02:21:48 IPS? 02:21:53 interface-passing style. 02:24:45 can i have buzzword-passing style? 02:24:55 of course 02:25:09 great, i should patent it 02:25:25 stassats: I figured Faré's toy idea was known enough in here that it would communicate what I meant. 02:26:58 why not just (map 'breadth-first-tree function tree) ? 02:27:36 i don't see how it's radically different from (map-bfs ...) 02:27:37 inheritance? 02:27:40 That could work? 02:27:50 stassats: polymorphism, ofc. 02:28:04 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:28:56 sykopomp: that's not a great difference 02:29:08 (apply tree-mapping-function tree) 02:29:14 (funcall (case ... (a map-bfs)) ...) 02:29:16 +function 02:29:26 er, funcall. it's getting late :x 02:29:42 couldn't you say the same thing about polymorphism in general? :) 02:30:00 i can say polymorphism is just another buzzword 02:30:40 you could. Then you could just use add-int32, add-int64, add-rational, add-complex, etc etc. 02:31:02 sykopomp: are you doing (+ 'int-32 1 2)? 02:31:08 folks, is it odd to use (eval (read-from-string ...)) as in http://paste.pocoo.org/show/278707? 02:31:45 O_o 02:31:49 leo2007: didn't you ask this yesterday? 02:32:25 leo2007: use #+asdf ? 02:34:03 sykopomp: in other words, polymorphism solves the problem which doesn't exist in Lisp 02:34:26 stassats: I'm saying it doesn't exist -because- of polymorphism :) 02:35:08 schmrkc: yes, but I can't remember I got an answer. 02:35:08 lisp isn't statically typed, it doesn't need polymorphism 02:35:34 leo2007: Zhivago said it was dangerous and asked why you'd use eval. 02:35:35 stassats: (+ 1 2) -is- polymorphism. 02:35:59 well, it is, but it doesn't call for inventing some name for it 02:36:20 schmrkc: ahh, sorry. It is in swank-loader.lisp so I am wondering the same thing. 02:36:34 new names are just "another level of indirection" 02:37:10 sykopomp: you introduce names, too.. , ... 02:37:35 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:38:10 the difference is that your names may control more than one operation.. this level can be reached by using plain symbols 02:38:39 It was introduced in this commit to slime: Better integration with ASDF. 02:39:00 but symbols can't inherit from other symbols, which is why, I suppose, classes are used 02:39:15 I think symbols with EQL-dispatch would work just as well. I'm afraid I'm not exactly prepared to defend this stuff, but did find it interesting when I read about it. 02:39:29 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:39:30 specially in the context of writing code based on protocols. 02:39:33 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-17.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:40:25 and protocols are ...? 02:40:47 stassats: You can write large swaths of code that do not depend on an object's type using polymosphism. 02:40:47 some first class things? 02:40:54 Protocols -could- be first class, sure. 02:40:56 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:41:08 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@119.192.12.119] has joined #lisp 02:41:17 but saying "implement these 5 generic functions, and things will Just Work" is also okay. 02:41:36 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-249-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:41:55 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-249-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:42:18 sykopomp: possibility is a weak argument 02:42:47 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:42:53 given that people can do all kinds of crazy things 02:44:10 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:44:36 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:45:08 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 02:45:33 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-13-97.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:45:42 in fact, symbols can "inherit" from other symbols, and have "slots".. it's just a matter of abusing symbol-plist 02:46:04 stassats: I'm not sure how to respond. What do you mean "possibility is a weak argument"? 02:46:21 Do you need me to point you to things that use protocols to provide useful functionality with minimal implementation? 02:46:35 useful extension, even. 02:46:41 or even alteration of existing functionality. 02:46:41 sykopomp: well, you said that i can do something one way, that doesn't mean it's a good way 02:46:58 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-29-91.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:47:33 -!- EMMA [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:49:40 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-206-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:22 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:11 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 02:54:45 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:54:51 sykopomp: I've read Fare's post when it was posted, but I mostly forgot about it.. thanks for the reminder 02:55:13 adeht: reading the code for fare-utils was interesting, too. 02:55:26 sykopomp: I skimmed it back then 02:56:10 EMMA [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:58:46 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:00:53 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 03:04:59 sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@219.237.163.115] has joined #lisp 03:11:31 freaktab [~freaktab@dslb-088-072-023-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:50 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:13:36 -!- az [~az@p5796C5C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:14:55 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 03:21:13 az [~az@p4FE4FCF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:37 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx62-2a-213.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:24:44 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-206-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:27:32 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 03:31:05 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:33 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:36:17 Good morning everyone! 03:36:46 -!- LiamH [~liam@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:39:22 morning beach 03:40:39 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:22 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 03:47:42 -!- sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@219.237.163.115] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:47:57 sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@219.237.163.115] has joined #lisp 03:48:59 -!- sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@219.237.163.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:15 sabalaba_ [~sabalaba@219.237.163.115] has joined #lisp 03:53:16 -!- sabalaba_ [~sabalaba@219.237.163.115] has quit [Client Quit] 03:53:36 sabalabas [~sabalaba@219.237.163.115] has joined #lisp 04:06:28 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:06:41 sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:10:33 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:17:29 -!- freaktab [~freaktab@dslb-088-072-023-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 04:19:43 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:21:56 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 04:25:33 -!- yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:26:07 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:27:41 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 04:29:09 -!- sharps` is now known as sharps 04:30:21 i use completion in slime all the time, but while it works like a charm in repl, it usually doesnt in slime-scratch, is there a particular reason why? it says " lisp autodoc [cl-user sbcl]" in buffer info below, should mode be changed to something else? or is this the usual way slime completion and fuzzy-completion works 04:31:17 it doesn't work in what fashion? 04:32:18 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:31 when the repl buffer is active, i press TAB and all possible completions are listed, in slime-scratch or any lisp file buffer, i press tab, absolutely nothing happens 04:32:33 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:32:49 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:09 well, because you need to press C-c TAB or M-TAB 04:33:18 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 04:33:27 (you can substitue TAB with C-i) 04:33:40 (C-c C-i or M-C-i) 04:34:41 ok, c-c tab worked, but why is it only "tab" in repl and c-c tab in other buffers? 04:35:02 kenanb: Because TAB in a .lisp buffer is indent-line. 04:36:02 -!- tama [~tama@ip65-46-142-190.z142-46-65.customer.algx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:37:55 hmm, so this is the normal behavior, i see, thanks, can i substitute c-c c-i with some f key? 04:38:38 i remember f5 f6 not being assigned in emacs 04:38:51 maybe more fkeys 04:39:28 you can use slime-indent-and-complete-symbol 04:45:23 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:45:46 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:45:48 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:49 MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:04 are cons cells unique to common lisp? 04:48:18 no 04:48:21 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:48:25 stassats: all lisps? 04:48:39 zc00gii: all programming languages 04:48:49 stassats: I mean, lists are always like that 04:48:50 no no 04:48:51 I mean 04:49:07 how (foo bar baz) really just means (cons foo (cons bar (cons baz))) 04:49:23 that's linked lists for you 04:49:55 stassats: are all lisps like that? 04:50:23 like what? 04:50:29 stassats: how I demonstrated 04:50:53 I think I'll do it that way 04:50:53 you demonstrated a linked list, it's like that everywhere, in Lisp, in C, in whatever 04:51:06 nevermind 04:52:37 -!- MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:52:38 For the record "(cons baz)" won't work. :P 04:55:07 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:55:18 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:55:21 franki^: I know 04:55:22 stassats: i assigned slime-indent-and-complete-symbol to C-tab and seems to do the job, thanks 04:55:24 you know what I meant 04:55:25 but uh] 04:55:28 anyway 04:55:41 is there a generic name for both cons and atoms? 04:55:42 kenanb: i was suggesting to assign it to TAB 04:56:17 zc00gii: linked list, not linked list 04:56:31 zc00gii: (or cons atom) = T 04:56:44 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:56:48 no say, if I were having a conversation with someone 04:56:49 In lisp an object is either a cons cell or an atom. 04:57:00 object! 04:57:02 that's the word 04:57:11 hmm, i did that at first, but it stopped indenting totally, it just started completing even when i write nothing 04:57:18 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:57:19 iaindalton [~user@host-72-174-169-239.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:14 ok, no, it does both, sorry 05:00:55 I have unicode in a docstring, and swank complains. When I change slime-net-coding-system to utf-8-unix, I can't connect to SLIME, though I can start it (but can't slime-compile-and-load-file, for example). How do I make SLIME accept UTF-8? 05:01:39 by setting slime-net-coding-system to 'utf-8-unix 05:01:48 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:02:01 But that's what I did, and it caused those problems. 05:02:26 you need your lisp to accept utf-8 too 05:03:11 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:03:22 It seemed like a SLIME problem, considering it started a REPL but lisp buffers were "not connected". 05:03:29 does SBCL accept UTF-8? 05:03:58 if you ask it to 05:04:58 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:24 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:06:58 nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:31 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:08:05 i just pasted to paste.lisp.org and it said it was "sent to #lisp at Freenode". what does that mean? 05:08:14 i don't see it in here 05:08:15 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:08:27 that it's lying 05:08:27 ozzloy: the bot doesn't announce to the channel anymore. 05:08:38 It used to announce pastes here, but I think that functionality was removed due to abuse... 05:09:10 googled it and, (stream-external-format *standard-output*) reports UTF-8 05:10:53 http://paste.lisp.org/+2HDA also, i'm getting these warnings when starting lispbox. they go away if i make the directories. is there a better way to fix it? 05:11:00 sykopomp, cool, thanks 05:11:10 iaindalton: you also need swank to accept utf-8 05:11:57 ozzloy: lispbox is older than me 05:13:18 21 emacs, 0.9 sbcl, slime 2 /me shivers 05:13:49 stassats: googling suggests setting slime-net-coding-system should do that, but it breaks slime 05:14:22 iaindalton: it would do if you let slime start swank 05:14:35 meaning when you don't connect to a remote swank server 05:15:07 I'm not. I'll set it again and open a new emacs instance to be sure; one sec 05:16:56 republican_devil [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:32 Hmm, seems to work. Brb, restarting main Emacs 05:17:35 -!- iaindalton [~user@host-72-174-169-239.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1] 05:17:51 hey I had a problem i solved in so so way in bash today 05:18:00 may I describe and ask how a lisper would ahve solved it? 05:18:09 iaindalton [~user@host-72-174-169-239.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:18 you may try 05:18:25 I guess the changes hadn't propagated until I restarted 05:18:35 Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:35 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:18:35 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 05:19:27 No, wait, it's still "not connected" 05:19:59 did you connect? did you try to look in *inferior-lisp*? 05:20:43 swank:close-connection: end of file on # 05:21:10 The only difference is the slime-net-coding-system setting 05:23:18 it was pretty good to have the opportunity to listen the audio records of ILC's, but I can't find neither video nor audio records of ILC 2009, may they be in another website? or are they not uploaded this time? 05:24:00 stassats, that must be pretty old. *zing* 05:26:04 iaindalton: what emacs are you using? is there something funny in *slime-events*? 05:26:34 http://pastebin.ca/1970560 05:27:38 i'm using it only because http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ told me to. have any suggestions on better tutorials? 05:28:07 no 05:30:06 republican_devil: your question is too broad 05:30:21 stassats: Emacs 24.0.50.1. I'm not sure what's supposed to be in *slime-events*, but the suspect doc string is there 05:30:44 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 05:33:01 iaindalton: what is the result of (swank::connection.coding-system swank::*emacs-connection*)? 05:33:31 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-67-221.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:36:53 ozzloy: It's a good book. But you might be better of with a more modern emacs + slime + sbcl than what you have. 05:36:54 stassats: not connected :( 05:37:05 after you connect, obviosuly 05:37:33 well, I have to change slime-net-coding-system back to latin-1 for connecting to work 05:38:15 well, you may want to switch to " *cl-connection*" (not the space) and do M-x erase-buffer there 05:38:24 and then connect 05:39:10 there's no buffer with that name 05:39:29 who told you? 05:39:41 i have a more modern emacs and slime, but some of the key bindings don't quite work the same, so i figured i'd stick with lispbox. (i'm new to emacs too) 05:39:47 list-buffers 05:40:11 iaindalton: well, that's why there is a space, switch with C-x b 05:40:37 ozzloy: one or two? 05:41:27 stassats, one or two whats? 05:41:29 alright, created that buffer, but can't connect. should I switch coding systems? 05:42:10 if you started slime before, it should be already created 05:42:15 ozzloy: bindings 05:43:13 I started slime, but it couldn't connect 05:44:02 but you said it does connect on a fresh emacs, doesn't it? 05:44:25 no, apparently it brings up a repl buffer, but it doesn't actually work 05:44:25 more than two. i forget which ones though. i'll go back and check if you think it's worth it 05:44:33 I can't eval forms or anything 05:44:34 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.116.44] has joined #lisp 05:44:55 that is bizarre, how old is your slime? 05:45:08 ozzloy: i think it's worth to learn a couple of different bindings 05:45:10 a few days 05:45:32 and in case you can't, you can always rebind them 05:45:40 iaindalton: that's good 05:46:10 iaindalton: i can't suggest anything besides trying to eliminate all variables 05:46:42 if I reset slime-net-coding-system to iso-latin-1-unix, and start a new instance of emacs, I can start slime, and (swank::connection.coding-system swank::*emacs-connection*) reports iso-latin-1-unix 05:47:05 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:47:11 AFAICT, the only variable is slime-net-coding-system, nothing else changes and it makes it not work 05:47:16 that's good, but not what i was asking for 05:47:32 but if you're suggesting I use a minimal .emacs, I can try that 05:48:37 it can be either buggy sbcl, buggy emacs, buggy OS, buggy CPU, buggy memory, buggy current in your wall outlet 05:48:39 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:48:39 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 05:49:38 in decreasing order of likelihood, considering the specificity of the problem :P 05:50:06 you never know, it may be your part of the universe is having troubles 05:50:26 stassats, maybe i misunderstand you. i don't think it was a question of learning or not learning key bindings. the keybindings mentioned in the book didn't actually do anything in the newer emacs+slime 05:51:19 maybe when i know emacs better i can figure out what it's trying to get me to do and translate it 05:51:26 ozzloy: right, and you can learn new key bindings instead of getting five years old environment 05:51:48 ozzloy: you can always ask that here 05:54:22 ah, ok. brb 05:58:00 nipra_ [~nipra@115.118.216.2] has joined #lisp 06:00:04 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:06:11 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:07:15 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:14:15 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:15:11 how do i find out the key binding for "slime-close-parens-at-point"? 06:15:39 C-h k 06:15:46 sorry C-h f 06:16:09 cool thanks! 06:16:14 ^_^ 06:16:27 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:34 crap. i did C-h C-f which brought up a FAQ 06:16:44 C-x k =) 06:16:46 how do i undo that and go back to the file i was editing? 06:16:58 How can it be abused? It used to announce pastes here, but I think that functionality was removed due to abuse... 06:16:59 oic 06:17:03 and maybe C-x 1 to unsplit the frame 06:17:13 a FAQ is still better than an EOW-exception 06:17:25 humasect, C-x k Enter worked 06:17:27 Lisppaste not pasting links here is a PITA. 06:17:39 okay=) 06:17:46 yeah 06:18:14 perhaps it should, using address/network based rate throttling and/or buffer truncation 06:18:33 says it's not found. does that mean there's no key binding, or that the function does not exist? 06:19:06 "function" is that the right word? 06:19:17 ozzloy: for C-x f then typed the function name, it sounds like not exist 06:19:23 err C-h f sorry. =) 06:21:33 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:22:09 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:34 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:23:15 sanity check. i opened emacs, M-x slime Enter C-x C-f hello-world.lisp Enter (defun hello-world () (format t "hello, world" C-c C-q 06:23:46 would the command be expected to exist in that situation? 06:28:19 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:29:55 http://codangaems.blogspot.com/2008/01/slime-close-parens-at-point.html looks like the function is deprecated according to the comments 06:32:54 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:37:14 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:25 xan_ [~xan@p1089-ipbf15tokaisakaetozai.aichi.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:40:53 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:41:49 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 06:48:10 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:48:39 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:58 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 06:54:26 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-83.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:55:52 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 07:04:16 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B327C7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:13 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B32652B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:08:24 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:11:05 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 07:20:56 sbplr [~sbplr@unaffiliated/sbplr] has joined #lisp 07:22:50 -!- atomx [~user@92.81.118.66] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:24:07 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-208.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:29:06 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:29:11 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 07:29:12 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:33:58 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 07:37:43 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:38 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:41:38 -!- nipra_ [~nipra@115.118.216.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:45:46 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:46:26 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:47:17 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:07 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 07:52:55 ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-67-221.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:03:02 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:04:38 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 08:04:55 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:17:16 mega1_ [~quassel@pool-0371a.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:17:36 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:24:29 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 08:25:08 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:26:42 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757bff.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:46 -!- mega1_ [~quassel@pool-0371a.externet.hu] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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09:53:00 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:53:11 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:53:16 e.g. (format nil "~a" path) 09:53:43 or is there a simpler and better way? 09:54:42 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 09:55:02 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:55:34 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 09:59:03 jtza8: namestring or file-namestring 10:00:30 kingless [~kingless@c-68-57-44-80.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:58 haha thanks, I knew it wasn't quite the right way to do it. :) 10:01:59 -!- H4ns````` [~user@pD4B9EC97.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:02:10 forgot about namestring. 10:05:20 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 10:05:37 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:38 <_3b> pjb: see 15:10-15:20 in http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/10.05.19 10:06:11 Lone_Wanderer1 [~Dan@91.151.155.164] has joined #lisp 10:06:27 This may not be the best place to ask this, but I figure it'll do to start... 10:06:31 -!- Lone_Wanderer1 is now known as Lone_Wanderer 10:07:33 regarding busy beaver numbers - is it possible to write a program which will compute a single BB number? For example, a program specifically to compute BB 5? 10:07:39 Or are all of them incomputable? 10:09:32 -!- kingless [~kingless@c-68-57-44-80.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:09:57 (I was under the impression that the halting problem could be "solved" for specific machines, and that the only truly impossible program to write is one that will accept all programs as input.) 10:10:30 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 10:19:36 moah [~gnu@188.109.207.34] has joined #lisp 10:20:33 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-0371a.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:21:33 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:21:41 Lone_Wanderer: wikipedia reports that Radó's 1962 paper proved that if f: N  N is any computable function, then (n) > f(n) for all sufficiently large n, and hence that  is not a computable function. 10:22:05 kingless [~kingless@c-68-57-44-80.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:15 Obviously,  has been computed for small numbers, such as 1 and 2. But (5) is unknown IIRC. 10:22:32 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:25:06 Lone_Wanderer: http://www.scottaaronson.com/writings/bignumbers.html reports some mininal values for BB(5) and BB(6). Notice that we don't know their exact values. 10:26:04 -!- kingless [~kingless@c-68-57-44-80.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:44 _3b: ok. I was busy at the time and didn't see that. Wouldn't it be worth to implement a bayesian filter detecting whether a paste is lisp or not? 10:27:12 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:27:24 <_3b> pjb: i think it is a question of 'someone having time to implemt' rather than 'worth implementing' 10:27:56 <_3b> and they were spamming all channels lisppaste is in, not just #lisp 10:28:39 Probably our captcha is too simple... 10:29:01 We should improve it first. 10:29:08 <_3b> yeah, i think the real captcha was enabled after that 10:29:41 You mean the product? It's not real (could write a program to solve it in five minutes). 10:29:57 <_3b> i mean one that wasn't always "lisp" 10:30:29 Yes. So either it's good enough and we could activate lisppaste messages again, or it's not good enough and we'd need to put a real captcha. 10:30:51 zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:30:51 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:31:08 MorganB [~user@64-238-171-196.cab.apt.gru.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:28 Or I'll have to update my erc pasting code... 10:34:39 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:35:07 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:35:47 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:35:47 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:37:36 pjb: I read that too but I don't know what it means, unless it means that zeta (that's a zeta, right?) is the hypothetical function which could compute a given busy beaver number 10:38:12 gump_ [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 10:38:33 That's a sigma. (n) == BB(n) is the nth busy beaver number. 10:39:17 The question I would ask is whether there are functions that are not computable. Whether something that's not computation can be called function. Whether the definition of a beaver number is sound. 10:39:26 ah ok 10:39:53 I could write a function that's not computable. 10:40:01 does_this_program_halt() ;) 10:40:54 But in any case, the Radó's demonstration means that BB(n) is not computable for n being big enough. For small numbers it may be computable. But once it becomes bigger than what any computable function may return, it becomes non computable. 10:41:24 Well, programs are not algorithms (in strict sense) and are not mathematical functions. 10:41:34 So it may exist for some numbers, but if it does the result isn't particularly interesting 10:41:43 ? 10:41:56 On the other hand, programs run in the physical universe, so you have to take into account that you have finite time space and energy to compute anything. 10:42:04 *Lone_Wanderer* nods. 10:42:15 Even a "computable function" may require too much time space or energy to be computed. 10:42:24 xinming [~hyy@115.221.5.175] has joined #lisp 10:42:48 I always thought it'd be nice if you had a magic box you could put a computer into, and no matter how long it was in there, when you took it out it would have gone through an infinite number of processor cycles. 10:43:02 Right - the universe may die before it stops running. 10:43:29 So you just put it in, close the door, open it again and see if the program is still running. 10:45:06 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-141-209-190.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:45:18 bbl 10:46:43 later 10:57:22 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:27 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@119.192.12.119] has joined #lisp 11:01:34 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:09 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 11:05:47 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:06:45 -!- Lone_Wanderer [~Dan@91.151.155.164] has left #lisp 11:06:54 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:08:04 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:11:07 zomgbie_ [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 11:11:07 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 11:12:13 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] 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#lisp 14:50:26 MoALTz [~no@92.8.222.254] has joined #lisp 14:52:48 fe[nl]ix: got your test email; and it reminded me why I don't like the "hold" option in mailman: "Please attend to this at your earliest convenience.  This notice of 14:52:48 pending requests, if any, will be sent out daily." 14:53:47 -!- hargettp_ [~anonymous@pool-71-174-134-138.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp_] 14:54:45 gump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 14:54:52 benny` [~benny@i577A2563.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:02 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2967.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:58:09 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:58:54 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:59 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:02:38 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:10:58 -!- benny` is now known as benny 15:11:22 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:22 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:11:22 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 15:14:53 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 15:19:15 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:19:21 homie` [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:07 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-17.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:21:29 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 15:21:32 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:39 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-17.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:21:45 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-95.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:21:55 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-95.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:22:07 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 15:22:13 LiamH: admin_immed_notify in "General Options" 15:24:04 Should the list moderators get immediate notice of new requests, as well as daily notices about collected ones? ==> No 15:24:10 already set 15:24:47 and you still get those messages ? 15:25:40 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:42 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-252-95.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:00 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu269.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:34:01 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-206-100.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:25 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.124.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:41:19 well, no, your is the first one and I took care of it, but it threatened to send them to me daily 15:42:20 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:44:11 gimbal [~gimbal@136.sub-72-101-190.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:46 -!- gimbal [~gimbal@136.sub-72-101-190.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 15:44:51 gimbal [~gimbal@136.sub-72-101-190.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:07 Is it possible to specify how to print a custom clos object using ~a and format? 15:46:27 sepi: how to print it in what context? like print-object context? 15:46:29 or describe? 15:46:32 specialize print-object 15:46:45 *gimbal* is stuck on describe lately 15:48:24 also stuck on mmap. got a question, folks, if anyone here is familiar with mmap. context of the question is that I've got the wild notion of trying to implement a framework specifically for working with mmaped streams, in some regards of the same. My question would be this, tho: Is it even necessary to buffer i/o on [the process-accessible mampped regions of] an mmapped stream? 15:48:40 woah something got lost there 15:48:57 or that's just xchat 15:49:50 "mampped regions of] an mmapped stream?" is the last bit i got 15:50:03 yeah that was the end of it there 15:50:13 gimbal: I believe that sb-simple-streams has an mmap()ed stream. I don't know how good it is, though. 15:50:15 xchat here made it look like anything before the first "here" was just empty 15:50:51 well, hey some of those "regards of" mmap stuff, incidentally: such that (apparently) an [m]mapped region of a file will be mapped on page-sized boundaries. I've yet to see an mmap-streams impl in front of me that would seem to take account for that - and then, there's that question about whether buffering is even necessary with it 15:51:15 working with sbcl here, but of course! :) 15:51:56 I mean, it's kind of hairy too. You can map sections of a file, without having to map the whole file - for instance 15:52:17 then - at least on Linux platforms - there are some special behaviors that can be implemented viz a viz some MAP_ flags to mmap() 15:52:29 like having the system page-in the whole mmapped region 15:52:41 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:53:01 so shoot me I'm secretly trying to implement an object database off in hangar 12 or something equivalently silly sounding 15:53:16 no secret, no hangar 12, just not making a big deal of it 15:53:31 relcomp [~chatzilla@e180083173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:53:41 picked up some of my hints from clorb's object-marshaling behaviors initially. I'll stop tho. not my project channel >< 15:53:59 but anyway, that's *why* I want to get hair with mmap, so to speak 15:54:08 -!- d-c [~DC@118.229.96.40] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:55:09 or hair with it, either. but ok tho. I just might say "we don't need buffering" at least with mapped regions of files 15:55:13 hairy even 15:57:54 antifuchs: ammend commits in magit? 16:00:14 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:00:21 gimbal: if you're doing stream-oriented IO, you probably shouldn't be using mmap. 16:00:37 pkhuong_: why not? 16:02:10 gimbal: btw, some of those MAP_ flags are completely ignored, so you can forget expecting anything sensible 16:02:13 fds are simpler for the OS to optimise; you'll get prefetching, buffering, fewer context switches, no TLB flush, etc. 16:02:15 gimbal: adeht: thanks 16:02:34 plus, fds are simpler for you to use, if all you want is stream IO. 16:02:41 if you're doing stream I/O, look into existing streaming syscalls (readv/writev) 16:03:01 also some of the memory-to-fd pipelining syscalls 16:03:59 There was quite the thread on the topic on realworldtech.com; the gist of linus's thesis was that mmap is only useful if you're doing lots of random access with an unpredictable pattern. 16:04:08 pkhuong_: well, it'll be more than char-based i/o. not sure if I may like to try to switch stream-element-type in mid-stream at specific margins too 16:04:22 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:04:23 pkhuong_: that sounds like what I may wind up doing 16:04:45 gimbal: if you're willing to use mmap, I don't know why you're worrying about portability. 16:04:45 pkhuong_: for "I" being "the app I'm fixing to build, once I get all the subsystems put together" hehe 16:04:48 pkhuong_: not worried about portability >< 16:05:13 pkhuong_: just concerned about (1) whether buffering is necessary with mmapped regions of files, for sure, and (2) how to fit some design objectives into an existing stream architecture, honestly 16:05:29 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:57 pkhuong_: you mentioned memory-to-fd pipelining syscalls, that sounds interesting tho 16:06:11 gimbal: mmap() on linux doesn't keep any guarantees offered by MAP_ flags like prefetching mapped pages or leaving them unallocated with only on-demand allocation 16:06:42 ok. that's bells and whistles anyway, so I can deal with it :) 16:07:05 will keep it in mind, definitely, tho 16:07:19 at which, thanks! 16:09:41 in the furthest black magic of the thing, been wondering if it may be possible to use an mmapped region of a file as some kind of SAP backing for a vector... ? that's blue sky tho 16:10:15 not sure if I'd know when to call msync() with a vector, come to think of it 16:10:53 glad to have some feedback about this tho, honestly 16:10:57 *gimbal* pipes down 16:11:23 you can do that with some serious implementation magic 16:11:28 :grin: 16:11:36 open-source is that fun, nah? >< 16:11:37 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.88.195] has joined #lisp 16:12:14 that msync() issue tho - if I can't make sure the changes are sync'd to file, it might be pointless? except for shared memory maybe if I understand the significance of MAP_SHARED right? 16:12:47 with a stream, there's a definite close() point. with a vector, not so much so 16:13:49 basically allocate the header for a vector, and mmap the file onto it, then tell the runtime it's a lisp object; I'm not so sure about the GC bits, might be able to munmap on finalization  but I don't know what the GC will try on the vector's data ptr 16:14:18 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:20 you can access a vector's data ptr and call msync on it, I'd guess 16:14:34 oh that sounds hairier than I might know how to "master" offhand, but it sounds fun..? 16:15:03 clueless about the implications of gc behavior, here 16:15:04 might be easier to go an implement mmapped streams 16:15:30 or just work with fds. 16:16:14 that's the safe route :) caveat emptor? Heheheh 16:16:15 Well it's nice if you can use read-line / read-sequence, get a proper lisp vector and be able to use all the handy sequence functions 16:16:27 depending on what you want to do anyway :-) 16:16:41 I had a mmap hack for SBCL, which mapped files into vectors with (unsigned=byte 8) element type, but it's been long and the thing likely rotted.. 16:18:24 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-13-97.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:18:39 c|mell [~cmell@88-96-216-86.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:18:46 pkhuong_: just reading backlog; a few weeks ago, fe[nl]ix explained to me that fds are actually not buffered apart from what the device-driver / device itself does. Not to want to put word into his mouth though, if that's wrong, it was probably who didn't listen carefully :-) 16:18:50 Didn't work for windows, as it has no means of specifying the target map location -- which is required, because you need to stick that object header immediately before the mapped data. 16:19:20 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:19:23 tcr: right. But you do get prefetching. Just make sure to make reasonably-sized reads, and you're good. 16:20:08 and why would you get fewer ctx switches?? 16:20:43 reasonably-sized reads ... wondering what the algorithm for that would be 16:20:48 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:52 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 16:20:56 So, I have an SBCL+SLIME+RUN-PROGRAM question: If I'm calling RUN-PROGRAM from the REPL, how do I get the program output to appear in the REPL? 16:20:57 (and disk IO drivers will buffer data very well) 16:21:10 tcr: one per syscall, instead of one per page to read in. 16:21:13 tcr: fds, at least on linux, go through VM buffering as long as the device supports buffered i/o interface (all standard block devices do), but the actual buffering is done by VM 16:21:38 pkhuong_: unless MAP_POPULATE worked (which is wonky, afaik) 16:21:45 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-47-100.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 16:22:01 hi hefner 16:22:03 it's possible that it works for files 16:22:10 nyef: explicitly pass *standard-output* as the stream iirc 16:22:12 fe[nl]ix: hi. 16:22:40 read-enough-bytes-to-unmarshal-the-bignum-at-offset-foo - may be not the most optimal syscall-facing algorithm, I see 16:22:40 using mmap to implement streams is broken: you end up duplicating kernel login in your application, except that you don't have access to as much information, and you pay for the overhead of mmap (which are necessary to support the greater flexibility) to implement something that's not more flexible than fds. A pretty bad case of complexity inversion. 16:23:26 mmap makes sense for random access, but not for streaming, true 16:23:43 *kernel logic 16:23:47 tcr: "The value # is not of type (OR (VECTOR CHARACTER) (VECTOR NIL) BASE-STRING PATHNAME FILE-STREAM). [Condition of type TYPE-ERROR]" 16:23:56 (It /was/ the first thing that came to mind.) 16:24:06 that value looks odd? 16:24:23 It's the normal return value from RUN-PROGRAM? 16:24:23 pkhuong_: I hear what I think I can grasp of the critique about mmap-streams, there. I'm stubborn about what I think I can also grasp about wanting to use mmap() for at least a set of special-purpose i/o operations tho. does it pass still? >< 16:24:35 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:24:57 And, yes, it indicates that the process had an error during execution and quit out with an exit status of 1. 16:25:27 ok, so it's ok for random access. that I can run with :) 16:25:53 Bronsa [~bronsa@host156-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:26:04 nyef: (sb-ext:run-program "ls" '() :search t :wait t :output *standard-output*) wfm 16:26:45 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:08 pkhong: In case you want to work on ptrs; so would it actually make more sense to read form a fd into a buffer, and use a ptr to that, than using mmap? 16:27:33 read pattern is sequential 16:27:56 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:58 timack [~tim@hlfx60-2a-213.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 16:28:00 most probably, since the access pattern is simple; even more so if you're going to blit that data somewhere else before processing it. 16:28:10 blit? 16:28:14 copy. 16:29:06 wait reading it from an fd creates a copy in the first place? 16:29:08 gimbal: but if you approximately know the working set in advance, you can just read it all in ahead of time. 16:29:39 pkhuong_: hmm 16:29:55 tcr: you're copying from wherever the data originally is to the user process's destination buffer, if that's the question. 16:29:56 pkhuong_: I was planning on making page-sized working sets 16:30:09 shit the same problem persists in clbuild too, after installing cl-yacc the asdf system tells me cl-yacc not found 16:30:19 pkhuong_: sounds like a viable question. I'm up for any useful input about it, honestly 16:30:20 even i register-asdf it 16:30:34 tcr: Thanks, that works. Now I need to make my real use-case work. 16:30:37 it's on recompile 16:30:37 homie: perhaps because the system is called yacc 16:31:12 and it's not the only one package giving errors on recompile 16:31:24 ya recompile yacc does it 16:31:36 but recompile --installed gives errors 16:31:37 ok, on burst: hey as far as how gc might affect a hypothetical mmap-backed vector - I plan on having a set of very frequently used bit vectors throughout said application, the contents of which will have to be stored at files, at some time or another, and restored from files, at some later time - well, is it possible to make a vector of fixed length in a non-gc's space? or mark a vector "do not gc this vector" ? 16:32:10 gimbal: depends on the GC. SBCL will (currently) not do anything with pointers outside the heap it manages. 16:32:25 I mean, I get the impression that gc sometimes changes the addresses on things, even before garbage-collector 'free' stuff, as much as I really do and don't understand of it 16:32:26 in sbcl large enough objects live in some different space 16:33:00 pkhuong_: pointers outside the heap it manages, ok. I grasp something about 'space' types in sbcl - it inherited that from cmucl no? 16:33:22 apologizes for the kindergarten-level understanding of sbcl internals here 16:35:28 the heap is split in a couple of spaces, but that's mostly orthogonal to your current concerns. 16:35:31 -!- xan_ [~xan@p1089-ipbf15tokaisakaetozai.aichi.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:35:33 *gimbal* nods 16:37:40 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@e180083173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:38:50 relcomp [~chatzilla@e180091154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:20 -!- tama [~tama@ip65-46-142-190.z142-46-65.customer.algx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:43:48 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@e180091154.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012110043]] 16:45:14 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 16:45:30 taking notes wrt mmap & streams. might publish some of the commentary here in some documentation, if that's alright? 16:46:23 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.88.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:46:35 just to make note, to the user of any kind of mmap-streams, that it's probably not the best thing for every possible use of streams >< - and to keep track of that, myself, honestly... 16:46:48 well, any kind of mmap-streams from this sandbox at least 16:52:01 hey folks, new promo vid for my lisp music game 16:52:03 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTveUHQoyyc 16:52:09 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.48.73] has joined #lisp 16:53:22 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:55 _8david` [~user@port-92-195-200-105.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:55:41 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:56:27 -!- _8david [~user@port-92-195-157-111.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:56:45 dto: lisp music game? 16:57:10 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:57:11 I see what looks like a foot-operated controller in the vid 16:57:12 http://dtogameblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/xiobeat-official-trailer-video-1a.html 16:57:31 gimbal: that link has some explanation and gameplay audio (not the screen shown, just the controller and synched sound) 16:57:37 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:39 well I'll be darned, that looks neat 16:57:44 dto: rockin! 16:57:51 the screen isn't pretty yet but soon i will have USB camera support for this so that you can actually make the game look like that 16:57:54 gimbal: :) 16:58:17 i might demo this at BLM 16:58:20 Sexy_Lolita [CLICK@pla25-1-82-225-17-43.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:22 i got asked to speak in november 16:58:45 *gimbal* is out of the loop on what BLM you refer to, apparently >< 16:58:59 -!- Sexy_Lolita [CLICK@pla25-1-82-225-17-43.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 16:59:47 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:00:13 Boston Lisp Meeting 17:01:58 ahh, Boston, home of the Dropkick Murphys I suppose >< There's a music scene there? (wot I know) 17:02:18 I mean I'm guessing there's a music scene there and the question is wot 17:02:56 dto: Not to blow smoke, just sayin, it looks like XIOBEAT is setting such a precedent in Common Lisp programming that, in my admittedly naive experience, I've not seen before, and I think it looks hella cool 17:03:16 gimbal: i hope!!! 17:03:37 gimbal: wait till i get camera and mic support working 17:03:57 will follow the blog 17:04:43 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:57 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host156-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:07:17 Bronsa [~bronsa@host156-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:11:00 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.0.240] has joined #lisp 17:11:07 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 17:12:15 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:53 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:14:08 xan_ [~xan@p1089-ipbf15tokaisakaetozai.aichi.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:18:25 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:21 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:09 *hefner* has the ECL blues 17:21:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:06 there's always MKCL! 17:21:06 Xach, memo from yates: Leslie Polzer implemented a fix in weblocks that corrected the slowness problem (apparently it has something to do with a bad interaction with quicklisp). http://groups.google.com/group/weblocks/browse_thread/thread/60e2341fe3cd709d?hl=en 17:21:06 Xach, memo from yates: PS: the update is in the weblocks-dev branch 17:21:32 heh 17:21:40 carlocci [~nes@93.37.221.247] has joined #lisp 17:22:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:22:33 its focus on workingness and disinterest in lunatic-fringenix platforms is probably a step in the right direction 17:24:11 -!- gimbal [~gimbal@136.sub-72-101-190.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 17:27:38 -!- gump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:27:40 anyway, I need to find a sane language implementation for embedding. ECL isn't. 17:27:53 "lunatic-fringenix"? Is that darwin, openbsd, or hurd? 17:28:04 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:29:41 *bsd, hurd, any surviving commercial unix... 17:29:45 neckbeardnix 17:30:03 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:22 god kills a kitten every time someone wastes an hour fixing build quirks on NetBSD/HPPA or whatever 17:31:52 esp. when windows and darwin are still a mess 17:32:13 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:32:47 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:34:26 it's not clear they'll catch on 17:35:12 Personally, I'd rather support an Open, Unix-like, system like BSD than Windows. :> 17:38:20 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host156-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:38:47 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:18 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:44 franki^: then please work on them to make them more useful to others as well... just don't make certain mistakes freedesktop loves -_-; 17:41:18 -!- helozjisky [~helozjisk@58.41.36.233] has quit [Quit: helozjisky] 17:42:32 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:42:55 p_l|home: Heh, well, so far I haven't made anything that's useful to anyone. ;) But what kind of thing are you talking about? 17:43:31 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:44:01 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.145.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:44:06 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:45:39 franki^: let's say I'm not entirely happy with various approaches to problems, like HAL, D-Bus sprawling everywhere, Xft2 etc.. 17:45:42 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.174.183] has joined #lisp 17:46:06 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-50-148.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:46:22 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.0.240] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:46:36 new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 17:46:37 Ah, yes.. 17:47:17 I took delivery of an alphaserver yesterday with netbsd loaded on it. 17:47:27 I felt a strange sense of alarm. 17:48:57 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:06 heh 17:51:23 machines rescued from dumpsters, destined to warm closets 17:52:06 *p_l|home* is actually in process of acquiring a HP Visualize XD 17:52:16 (with HP/UX license) 17:54:59 lopex [lopex@chello089076044027.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 17:55:06 -!- lopex [lopex@chello089076044027.chello.pl] has left #lisp 17:55:31 I have an HP C3700 that no longer powers on 17:56:48 symbole_ [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:22 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:58:54 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:59:28 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:00:23 gump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 18:01:31 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:02:14 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.11/20101012104758]] 18:03:45 anyhow, I'm going to put linux on it and make it available to sbcl hackery. 18:05:36 Bronsa [~bronsa@host156-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:06:49 frito [~user@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:51 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:07:54 *p_l|home* would like SBCL on VMS, but his Alpha doesn't have enough memory 18:07:59 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:08:05 -!- new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:08:31 I haven't done an inventory of this machine yet, but the cab is fully packed. 18:08:36 it has four cpus. 18:08:41 it's a 4100 18:09:21 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:22 nice 18:09:51 I only have the low end AS255 with pitiful amount of memory (enough to do what it did, though) 18:10:19 I could try setting OpenGenera on it, I guess, if I got Tru64 and a compatible graphics card 18:11:13 -!- bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:11:14 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:11:14 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 18:11:17 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 18:11:25 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:09 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:31 (with X.Org making incompatible changes I can't just rely on networked X11) 18:13:41 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:54 -!- moah [~gnu@188.109.207.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:19:24 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:19:24 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:25 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:21:32 -!- frito [~user@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:36 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:04 *ivan4th* just spent several hours trying to catch memory fault error in SB-UNIX:UNIX-FAST-SELECT only to discover that SIGSEGV actually happens in another thread (while debugging CommonQt REPL integration), though the stack trace makes it look like that select() causes it 18:24:08 I think it could be useful for decrufting the sbcl axp port 18:26:10 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-217-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:05 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:05 debugging hint for anyone getting SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR: it (perhaps) never actually happens in SB-UNIX:UNIX-FAST-SELECT, SB-IMPL::SUB-SERVE-EVENT, SB-IMPL::SUB-SUB-SERVE-EVENT, whatever. Don't believe the backtrace! 18:32:06 manby-ace_ [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:37:20 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:38:27 tama [~tama@adsl-99-129-156-133.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:37 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:28 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.48.73] has quit [Quit: Puf!] 18:45:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:25 hargettp_ [~anonymous@pool-71-174-134-138.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:31 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:52:39 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:00:47 My remark above concerning memory fault in SB-UNIX:UNIX-FAST-SELECT appears to be premature. Seems like I've stumbled upon a bug in SBCL runtime :( os_restore_fp_control (context=0x1) at x86-64-linux-os.c:154 if (context->uc_mcontext.fpregs) { -- causes memory fault according to gdb as context=0x1 :( 19:03:15 srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:10 -!- skalawag is now known as ghost-of-gog 19:07:09 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.174.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:09:02 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.62.78] has joined #lisp 19:09:11 LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:44 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu269.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:15:26 -!- ghost-of-gog is now known as skalawag 19:16:28 jeti [~user@p579A4738.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:58 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.103.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:51 sonnym1 [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:23:36 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:24:45 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:21 tokenrove: on what version of Windows did you get that ASDF error ? 19:26:39 fe[nl]ix: XP 19:33:09 ikki [~ikki@189.247.103.223] has joined #lisp 19:35:04 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:25 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.57.219] has joined #lisp 19:42:10 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:42:27 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 19:43:14 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:48:28 new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 19:49:55 -!- MorganB [~user@64-238-171-196.cab.apt.gru.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51:04 MorganB [~user@64-238-171-196.cab.apt.gru.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:44 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:14 ivan4th: Neat. How'd the context value end up as 1 there instead of a valid pointer? 19:55:51 nyef: f**k Qt! Just found out that it naively intercepts SIGCHLD and reinvokes the handler with the first argument only... :((( 19:56:09 ... Lovely. 19:56:41 I've lost the whole day trying to track this down 19:56:41 So, before doing anything with Qt, you can force the SBCL runtime off the SIGCHLD handler, at the cost of breaking RUN-PROGRAM. 19:57:23 (Yes, this is possible. Yes, I worked out how to do so a few months ago after Fare was having problems with his own SIGCHLD handler.) 19:57:38 I'll try to fix Qt instead and send the patch to Nokia. Trolls were accepting some patches frome me many years ago, let's look how it will work out now... 19:58:08 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:59:33 -!- new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has left #lisp 20:00:10 new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:02:36 nyef: fe[nl]ix is cooking a run-program implementation in iolib 20:02:41 fyi, that is 20:03:01 Yes, I know. 20:03:08 :) 20:03:16 ISTR it involving a separate process for monitoring SIGCHLD or something? 20:03:33 not any more 20:03:40 Oh? 20:04:43 I just intend to use signalfd, block SIGCHLD and maybe fix CL implementations which break when I do that 20:04:55 Fair enough. 20:05:11 Need a snippet for beating a running SBCL into compliance? 20:06:32 nyef: I'll perhaps try to disable SIGCHLD handling in SBCL too, though the problem happens during ASDF:RUN-PROGRAM which surely will stop working after such change 20:06:35 nyef: I'd love that :) 20:08:11 fe[nl]ix: Ot 20:08:19 fe[nl]ix: It's fairly straightforward. 20:08:37 The reason blocking SIGCHLD breaks things is that SBCL counts it as a deferrable signal. 20:08:57 And the critical signal masks are variables in interrupt.c. 20:09:14 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:10:14 nyef: sigaddset_deferrable() ? 20:11:13 Yeah, but that's only called during startup. 20:11:29 Hrm. Nope, I'm wrong. 20:11:31 Hunh. 20:11:45 You can stop it /caring/ about the state, but can't stop it from deferring it, I think. 20:11:56 And there's possibly some circumstances where it'll enable it. 20:12:01 Damn 20:12:52 -!- jeti [~user@p579A4738.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:13:25 I've known for a few months that this design is at least partly wrong, but not that it was quite this wrong. 20:14:16 -!- MorganB [~user@64-238-171-196.cab.apt.gru.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:14:50 Anyway, to keep from dying due to invariant lossage, you do a sigdelset of SIGCHLD from deferrable_sigset and blockable_sigset. 20:14:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:12 Should be fairly straightforward SB-ALIEN or CFFI work from there. 20:18:02 Well, I guess what Qt is doing here is very wrong: http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/4.7/src/corelib/io/qprocess_unix.cpp#line193 http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/4.7/src/corelib/io/qprocess_unix.cpp#line122 -- so perhaps it should really be fixed 20:18:23 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 20:18:28 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-208.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:18:49 ... While I think of it... 20:19:19 ivan4th: You /might/ be able to get away with calling ENABLE-INTERRUPT to stop SBCL from caring about the SIGCHLD handler. 20:20:42 nyef: ignoring SIGCHLD and breaking RUN-PROGRAM does not look very good... I may need it 20:21:58 Fair enough... But if it gets things working better instead of worse...? 20:23:31 (sb-sys:enable-interrupt sb-unix:sigchld :default) should stop SBCL from receiving SIGCHLD, but it'll still care about its blocked/unblocked state. 20:24:11 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:13 nyef: yes, after (sb-sys:enable-interrupt sb-unix:sigchld :default) my test case (asdf:run-shell-command "ls") works and doesn't cause memory fault anymore. Thanks! 20:26:21 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 20:27:38 on the second attempt, it for some reason started pausing for a second 20:27:49 but still works ... 20:27:56 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:56 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:57 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 20:29:44 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 20:29:57 Are there any languages other than CL that have something like symbol-macros? 20:30:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:30:09 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:26 sykopomp: I think perl may have something like this 20:30:47 sykopomp: for example, to implement perligata 20:30:55 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:55 http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata.html 20:33:03 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:43 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.75.229] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:34:11 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 20:38:24 sykopomp: clojure (in clojure-contrib) 20:38:54 Libet: I'm trying to figure out what first-class symbol macros would look like (if they even make any sense to have) 20:39:18 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:39:55 pjb: I am not sure about Perl, in Perl you only have aliases 20:41:02 Libet: specifically, I don't see any other way to implement local aliases for a module system, without using something like a symbol macro. 20:41:49 That seems to be indeed the designated use of symbol macros. 20:42:36 sykopomp: could you put an example on what you mean by local aliases for the module system? 20:43:07 Libet: import x => (let ((env-I-will-use (make-environment x))) ...) 20:43:47 i think it can be done without aliases 20:44:00 that's the non-symbol-macro one. 20:44:20 (let ((env-i-will-use (make-new-empty-environment (with-parent x))) ...) 20:44:21 this is what needs symbol macros: 20:44:22 Libet: from x import y => (define y (symbol-macro (lookup y x))) 20:44:40 or from x import y as z => (define z (symbol-macro (lookup y x))) 20:44:50 given that the new environment has no bindings and the environment you want to import as parent, it should work 20:45:03 you want to be able to affect the bindings in that other environment. 20:45:06 what can I use to have lexical scope on top level non-LET? 20:45:08 which is why you can't just copy the values. 20:45:19 but i'm not copying! 20:45:33 just creating a new empty environment 20:45:43 and setting the one you want to aliase as parent 20:45:44 Libet: yes. That would import all the bindings. 20:45:58 ah 20:46:01 hold on, yes, I see. 20:46:04 :D 20:46:05 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:46:27 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 20:46:27 I don't see how you can do what you described without symbol macros, though... 20:46:30 how does with-parent work? 20:47:15 in my dialect, the syntax is: 20:47:25 with-parent would need to set up dynamic aliases, afaict. 20:47:27 (new) <- creates an empty environment (current environment as parent) 20:47:33 and have some kind of special evaluation rule for symbols. 20:47:48 (new parent) <- same with the specified environment as parent 20:47:55 so, something like: 20:48:14 (define a-module (new)) 20:48:48 (define aliased (new a-module)) ...) 20:49:14 Libet: that makes a-module the parent. 'aliased' uses all symbols that exist in a-module. 20:49:23 sorry, i'm realizing i'm being a little vague on the description 20:49:31 yes 20:49:54 when you lookup a binding in 'aliased', because it is empty and the binding is not found, we go to the parent 20:50:09 so effectively you 'import' all the bindings 20:50:14 yes 20:50:21 now where is the partial and aliased import? 20:50:30 aliases of -symbols- 20:50:43 so that evaluating y in env1 is the same as evaluating x in env0 20:50:48 ah, single symbols with different name? 20:50:48 including altering the binding of x in env0 20:50:49 i see 20:51:19 not only with a different name. You also need such a mechanism to do this if you only want to include a -few- symbols from the original environment. 20:51:31 i think i would do something like: (in aliased (define y (in a-module x))) 20:51:43 but that's awful 20:51:47 that's not dynamic. 20:51:51 exactly 20:51:57 this is where symbol macros come in. 20:52:10 you can define x in the -current- environment to expand to (lookup y other-env) 20:52:15 yes, i agree it seems they fit perfectly for this 20:52:49 but then 20:52:55 the question arises of how to treat these things. 20:52:56 having something like Python's import x from ... as ... with environments looks powerful too 20:53:10 that's exactly what I'm sayin'. 20:53:30 in any case, I feel like I should be adding a special evaluation rule, and a new kind of primitive, symbol-vau 20:53:38 i would add aliased-symbol 20:53:49 that's only one thing 20:53:55 symbol macros are more general. 20:54:05 a new data structure that only has a name and lookups the value in another place 20:54:34 that seems too limited 20:54:36 then each environment would be able to be extended with N of those 20:54:40 symbol macros are useful for other things, as well. 20:54:55 mmmm 20:55:15 then it's time to think about what representation we can give them 20:55:29 did you think of something better? 20:55:43 It's not that hard to figure out what they should be. I'm just hesitant to add another evaluation rule to eval. 20:55:56 I'll just do it, I guess :) 20:56:24 why? performance? 20:57:25 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E279AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:52 Libet: inelegance, maybe. 20:58:12 or rather, the hopes that something more general could rear its head. 20:58:16 this will do, though, I think. 21:01:45 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:02:59 i think the idea of creating an aliased-symbol datatype would be ok, then have environments contain both symbols and aliased-symbols 21:03:23 and probably build import on top 21:05:06 or maybe better, a "reference" datatype that could point to any object regardless of what it is 21:07:15 Xarver_ [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:07 however i sense you might want modules to be also first-class objects instead of just some macros on top of environments 21:08:57 -!- TheLolrus 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[~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:33:34 javuchi: ? 22:33:46 -!- lune [614c3062@gateway/web/freenode/ip.97.76.48.98] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:34:02 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:07 schmrkc, complete the macro 22:34:26 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:34 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.232] has joined #lisp 22:35:56 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 22:36:12 eerr. no 22:44:20 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:51 lune [~claire@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 22:54:26 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 22:55:09 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.57.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:57:08 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:52 powerje 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[~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 23:03:01 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:22 -!- hargettp_ [~anonymous@pool-71-174-134-138.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp_] 23:03:30 -!- ska`` [~user@ppp-115-87-235-63.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:03:35 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:49 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 23:04:11 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:11 for anyone interested, the seven-day Lisp Game Dev Competition for October 2010 has just begun. you can submit your entry at any time until 31 Oct: http://lispgames.ath.cx/index.php/2010_October_Lisp_Game_Dev_Competition 23:06:13 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 23:06:31 I get a "The function :use is undefined." for this http://paste.lisp.org/display/115839 Could anybody take a look at it for me, please? 23:06:33 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:20 without looking: you don't have CL in the current package 23:07:20 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:20 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 23:07:46 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:55 and why are you using common-lisp-user? it shouldn't have anything meaningful exported 23:07:55 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 23:08:05 i am sure you want to put :cl there instead 23:08:11 ok 23:08:19 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 23:08:30 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 23:08:58 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:09:41 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 23:10:06 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:51 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 23:11:07 How can I check which packages I currently have available? Because when I replace it with :cl it compiles but afterwards defun doesn't work anymore. 23:11:12 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:11:17 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:42 I'm going to read monkey21 again. 23:12:05 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:27 cYmen: (list-all-packages) 23:13:11 *cYmen* giggles. 23:13:13 It's undefined. 23:13:30 Uh??... 23:13:36 clhs list-all-packages 23:13:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_list_a.htm 23:13:41 So is in-package...hm..do I have to restart slime now? 23:13:44 Package problems again, no doubt. 23:13:57 That might be an easy fix, yeah. 23:13:57 -!- javuchi [~anvesaka@212.166.237.2] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 23:14:07 well, we've established that it's not using :cl 23:14:16 (cl:in-package :cl) fixed that 23:14:56 You may have symbol conflicts. 23:15:25 (in-package :cl) is probably a bad idea... 23:16:37 I wouldn't know. 23:19:27 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:19:42 Interning new symbols in that package is undefined. 23:19:45 On SBCL you'll get package-lock errors... 23:20:47 (in-package :cl-user) would be appropriate. 23:20:57 moah [~gnu@188.109.207.34] has joined #lisp 23:22:38 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:22:39 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:22:39 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:42 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:22:42 -!- symbole [~user@216.214.176.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:22:42 symbole` [~user@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 23:23:03 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 23:23:15 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 23:23:19 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 23:23:20 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7273c4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:23:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:23:24 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:23:24 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 23:23:28 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7273c4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:42 All I wanted to do was create a new package where I wouldn't have to qualify local-time functions with local-time: 23:25:43 I'm reading the appropriate PCL chapter again now. 23:27:59 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B287.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:28:14 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:43 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:28:49 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:29:31 pdenno [~user@207-172-151-197.c3-0.gth-ubr1.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:55 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 23:30:58 cYmen: Then evaluate (in-package #:cl-user), then (defpackage #:my-package (:use #:cl #:local-time)) 23:35:08 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.221.247] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:35:13 Well, I'm in cl-user with my repl and my package definition looks exactly like that but it complains that :use is undefined again if I try to C-c C-c the expression. 23:36:14 oh god.. 23:36:16 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:37:06 It works if I remove the (in-package :my-package) from the file. I thought C-c C-c would only look at one expression. 23:37:35 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:38:18 cYmen: Hum. Maybe you could use C-c C-k instead, to compile and load the whole file. 23:40:00 Doesn't work either. Now defun is undefined. 23:40:13 C-c C-c does only look at one top-level expression... Maybe you could lisppaste your file? You must have done something funny ;P 23:40:38 messing up packages and images is very easy, from my humble exprience :) 23:43:14 -!- tobik [~tobik@p54897DA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:43:31 If you mess up your image, M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp can be useful. 23:44:38 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-217-33.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 23:44:55 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:26 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:49:31 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:51:21 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 23:52:25 OK, this is what I'm trying to compile: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115839#1 23:53:02 stassats`: pushed several commits to my commonqt repo, you may want to merge them into yours. 23:53:06 I probably have messed something up beyond comprehension but if you would take a look at it anyway that would be nice. 23:53:06 doh! you are using cl-user again! 23:53:33 ivan4th: i'll take a look 23:54:26 stassats`: hmpf 23:54:28 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 23:54:45 guess-coding >_< 23:55:19 stassats`: one of problems fixed is mysterious memory fault when using SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM with active QApplication, thanks to nyef 23:55:47 yeah, i encountered something like that 23:56:04 there was very bad sigaction clash between SBCL and Qt 23:56:21 basically Qt does something very naive that breaks SBCL 23:56:39 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 23:56:56 (see comments in the source) 23:57:34 i see, what are the downsides of this change? 23:58:06 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:d921:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:55 powerje [~powerje@75.60.217.33] has joined #lisp 23:59:10 so far I didn't see any. 23:59:28 ok, i merged it 23:59:43 and makefile fix is great too, i was seeing makefiles all over the place