00:00:09 (some people suggest blindwriting - writing without seeing what you typed in) 00:00:14 So there was an underground organization that one character was a member of and then disappeared when I decided he should be operating alone. 00:00:52 gigamonkey: it can be easily explained later... someone cleaned them out :P 00:01:07 Not that freeform. My biggest cheat last year was to write a totally pornographic, explicit sex scene one evening. 00:01:24 But by the end of November I wrote enough words that I could cut it and still "win". 00:01:33 heh 00:01:34 gigamonkey: sounds some like movie 00:01:42 Do I remember rightly that nanowrimo is required to be fiction? 00:01:43 (rotatef some like) 00:02:01 nyef: yes. But you there are NanoRebels who break all the rules. 00:02:10 I suddenly noticed that the current idea that entered my head... is the first in a long time where I did think of any romantic subplots 00:02:58 however it's done in my crazy style of going backwards from ending 00:03:07 -!- jga [~gajon@189.253.56.122] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:03:33 (i.e. ok, that's the end result, now *how the fuck do I explain how it happened?*) 00:03:40 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 00:03:45 -!- mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:03:46 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:03:49 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:52 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-99-161.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:52 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 00:03:52 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:57 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 00:04:38 vandemar [~anon@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has joined #lisp 00:04:47 such thing was used prominently in "Irréversible" 00:04:57 p_l|home: sellout also did it and won last year so you can ask him too. 00:05:19 it's used in many movies, but this stands out 00:05:31 basically, I got the idea of giant changes happening in communist block sometime around 1980, and with all communication with outside cut. Then when they reopen the communication, it's something very changed... and there's no cold war if the other side is not interested and casually shows that they can wipe you easily :D 00:06:50 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-109-185.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:07:41 (the only constants are that a) there was communication block, including shooting down western spy satellites b) there were nukes used c) any outside intervention was met with unified force of *all* sides of civil war d) they emerged from the war with at least a decade or two newer technology and apparently little economical issues) 00:08:12 I just noticed that the political make up of that would probably go the way Communism went in "Humans like Gods" :/ 00:09:22 and I wondered how serious I should be about doing my research for something that's going to be a NaNoWriMo submission 00:09:38 -!- vandemar [~anon@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:58 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 00:10:09 vandemar [nonserviam@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has joined #lisp 00:10:23 and now how the fuck do I find *serious* (not propaganda-stuff) analysis of communism in case of post-scarcity economy??? 00:11:18 read g.b shaw ? 00:11:25 lol 00:12:00 *utopia* 00:13:22 not exactly Utopia... 00:14:40 which the fact that I decided that prisoner exchanges (think U-2 scandal, except with SR-71) being done in direct presence of a 50MT nukes to make sure the other side isn't going to make a grab for the technology 00:14:49 *austinh* wonders why #lispcafe never took off 00:16:07 austinh: not enough active people? I noticed that there are quite long lulls from time to time here, and from the big number of idlers not many of them speak... I recognize in some way most nicks I ever see talking 00:16:15 -!- vandemar [nonserviam@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:35 maybe we should direct more people there 00:16:41 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:15 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Quit: felipe] 00:17:15 financial dynamics communism in google gives some resultset 00:17:21 austinh: you mean for talking about things like NaNoWriMo 00:17:27 austinh: you mean deport? 00:17:29 yes! 00:17:33 hehe 00:17:45 maye subst the first with social etc.... 00:17:55 I find that usually those conversations spring up when no one is talking about Lisp. 00:18:15 wbooze: hmmm... I didn't think of using "dynamics" keyword 00:18:22 ok 00:18:22 gigamonkey: true 00:18:23 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.215] has joined #lisp 00:18:26 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 00:18:36 With all good intentions, it's just obvious that a lot of people want to converse with other people who share their interests, so I'm surprised it doesn't happen there. 00:19:08 austinh: Maybe to avoid the fate of ##lispweb? 00:19:25 p_l|home: What was the fate of ##lispweb? 00:19:52 #lispgames is somehow active, but I feel it's in big part thanks to dto. And it's often not exactly lisp, though still games :) 00:19:53 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-24.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:20:10 austinh: This is also a case of the channel rule that people are allowed to be off-topic in direct proportion to their contribution to the community. 00:20:11 bleep 00:20:21 p_l|home: it's my chosen home channel 00:20:29 austinh: I stopped joining the channel nowadays, used to >week of seeing JOIN, PARTS and day change messages... and nothing else 00:20:51 p_l|home: i've begun work on my XIODANCE lisp game 00:20:54 austinh: Some channels that try to "direct" people to -offtopic channels end up killing all offtopic conversation instead (I'm looking at you #debian) 00:20:56 nyef: Is that an unspoken rule? I've certainly seen that, too. 00:21:04 im about to make a dance platform for it, with a usb dance pad 00:21:24 austinh: If you go searching for it, you'll find it mentioned several times in the logs. 00:21:28 i'm gonna try to get something basic running tonight 00:22:38 I wouldn't exactly say that it's directly proportional, but more of "are they there to *only* talk off-topic or overwhelming majority is OT? Boot them out" 00:23:04 Yeah, perhaps not directly proportional, but it's still there. 00:23:08 dto: Nice to hear about XIODANCE! 00:23:15 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-6.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:23:19 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-6.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:23:35 dto: with those dancepads. is it one click per click or can you get like keyrepeat? 00:24:02 not when dancing. in menus, yes 00:24:15 schmrkc: i'm gonna post a dance video with the new pad and new lights setup 00:24:21 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:24:22 then i'm gonna code :) 00:24:30 and get one song running with some samples being triggered by beats 00:25:31 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-204.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:25:33 excellent 00:26:19 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-162-204.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:27:09 The ALU is soooooooo dysfunctional!!!! Kill me now. 00:27:18 gigamonkey: ? 00:27:29 vandemar [cohen@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has joined #lisp 00:27:53 I'm in the meeting. We're going round and round in circles around the damp, horse-shaped spot on the ground. 00:28:18 sounds exciting 00:28:22 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-6.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:28:48 gigamonkey: ... if I manage to go to next ILC, remind me to bring a club, so we can beat on that spot :P 00:28:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:29:37 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-6.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:30:14 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu141.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:30:43 You could probably walk here now with your club before we're done. 00:31:13 ... that bad? 00:31:30 gigamonkey: Are you still on the committee? 00:31:36 I mean, it would take some long time to go on foot from Scotland to ILC2010 00:31:39 Hang on, we may be closing this topic. 00:31:42 Now discussing the web site. 00:34:03 Jonl is claiming drewc is already engaged in helping with a new web site. 00:34:08 drewc: truep 00:34:29 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:34:32 gigamonkey: maybe they have seen the ucliki that runs ALU wiki... :P 00:34:54 "engaged" is a big word 00:36:01 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-214.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:58 gigamonkey: i re-did the ALU wiki, but that's as far as i've ever been involved. I'd certainly like to help further, but i have a severe lack of free time. 00:37:01 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-6.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:37:10 So apparently Dan Herring has been given authority to update the web site. 00:37:20 But I'll believe it when I see it. 00:38:11 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-6.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:38:46 *p_l|home* noticed that outside of taking part in organisation of ILC, he can't remember anything else done by ALU, actually... 00:39:55 Yeah, that's all they do. 00:39:57 but I guess I simply haven't been to any social events (slightly too far for me, usually) 00:40:17 gigamonkey: ... can we get lisp.org, then? 00:40:36 somehow I think #lisp would do a better job with that domain 00:41:13 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-214.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:41:35 "Is any one taking note of this meeting." 00:41:52 Oh, well, I guess we have to do it all over again. 00:42:56 *p_l|home* just looked at lisp.org source... and wants to claw his eyes out 00:44:02 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:44:16 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 00:45:54 So we passed a motion to get a written plan for updating the website. 00:46:20 And I just proposed and passed a motion that they *put it on the website*. 00:47:19 ... 00:47:36 Test to see if they can actually update the website in any way. 00:48:26 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:48:46 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:57 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:49:11 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:49:45 did that website get any overhaul since 1998 or what? 00:51:35 I like the fact that it's very spartan and contains no javascript crap 00:51:41 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:51:43 and that the main page fits the screen 00:52:14 -!- gigamonkey [~user@24-176-255-130.static.reno.nv.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:52:45 fe[nl]ix: I dislike the fact that it's a giant table 00:53:07 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:37 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:53:38 it doesn't have to use JS (though I find stuff like Modernizr or ie8.js to be very useful, and usually unnoticeable by those that don't need it) 00:54:49 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:01 gonzojive [~red@171.66.91.177] has joined #lisp 00:55:08 but I'd like more content, especially for people who are not already involved with lisp... and something that displays correctly outside the approved devices 00:57:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:57:22 jweiss_ [~weissj@cpe-069-134-025-078.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:57:59 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:58:40 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-131-123.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:05 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-99-161.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:04:09 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-214.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:51 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:59 -!- ayrnieu [~julian@50.15.104.42] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:06:45 yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:52 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-135.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 01:13:13 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 01:15:20 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:15:57 -!- _leo__ [~leo@186.18.145.74] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 01:16:04 serichse` [~user@f048065201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:16:58 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:08 BrianRice-mb [~briantric@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:53 -!- serichsen [~user@f048038244.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:19:24 i'm trying to troubleshoot the reason weblocks-demo runs so slowly - has this already been done? 01:20:46 *yates* wonders why it's so dead around here tonight... 01:20:49 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.217.240] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:21:36 It's normally quiet around now, as the European contingent has it at past midnight. 01:21:38 dunno 01:21:45 But also a number of people are at ILC. 01:21:52 ILC? 01:22:00 minion: ILC 01:22:01 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``ILC''. 01:22:04 ah right. Forgot that it's 0221 in UK, and 0321 in the rest of Europe 01:22:05 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:22:14 i thought there were several in CA 01:22:22 California, i.e. 01:22:31 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.91.177] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 01:22:32 They probably /drove/ to Nevada. 01:22:39 huh? 01:22:47 Ralith_ [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:51 ILC is in Reno this year. 01:23:01 I'm sad ron garrett and gavino didn't come. 01:23:18 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:23:27 ah 01:23:28 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 01:23:49 ah, it's Zhivago, from ##c 01:24:01 No, it's Zhivago, from #lisp. 01:24:20 different Zhivago? 01:24:35 A different direction. 01:25:26 Xach: got any highlights to blog about yet? 01:26:16 hi all (: 01:26:17 are they charging for the preprints or can we obtain them for free? 01:26:46 hi antifuchs 01:27:12 hi fe[nl]ix (: 01:29:37 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 01:30:00 what does "(defun*" do different than "(defun"? 01:30:33 ,defun 01:30:47 minion: defun* 01:30:48 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``defun*''. 01:31:03 defun* is not standard. 01:31:21 "(defun* system-definition-pathname (system)..." 01:31:50 it's an asdf function 01:32:37 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 01:32:40 Then you might look for the definition in asdf. 01:33:09 oh, you mean it is itself a defined function? 01:33:47 It won't be a function. 01:33:52 It will be a macro. 01:33:52 macro? 01:34:17 ok, thx Zhivago 01:34:28 Welcome. Please learn how to spell "thanks". 01:35:01 I already know. 01:35:15 But thanks... 01:36:03 those 218 milliseconds could be put to good use... 01:37:37 Yes -- such a not inflicting that kind of crap on us :) 01:38:37 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:56 minion: memo for gigamonkey: you were right. I'm in rockridge now, and it /is/ very very very nice. 01:39:56 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 01:42:19 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.70] has joined #lisp 01:42:47 What's the difference between a package's :: functions and : functions? 01:43:07 they're not functions (: 01:43:18 :: can be used to refer to a package's unexported symbols 01:43:27 symbols then 01:43:34 : you can use only for exported symbols 01:43:37 they're not symbols either (: 01:43:50 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:59 just parroting you, antifuchs 01:44:08 ah ((: 01:44:39 typically, :: is a warning sign that you're doing something that the api doesn't want you to do (or didn't think you'd ever need to do) 01:45:08 yes, i see - like calling a private member function in C+ (which is impossible, but that's the equivalent) 01:47:15 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 01:47:22 pretty much... there are entirely legitimate reasons to do this, but normally it means that something advanced is going on 01:47:38 a visual "XXX" comment 9: 01:47:40 Ever tried #define private public? :) 01:47:49 har har 01:48:46 *p_l|home* points out that it's not impossible to call a private member function in C++, but it helps if you don't strip the binary and make it non virtual... 01:49:16 virtual can be harder, because you need the full class definition then 01:49:19 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:49:37 (BTW: that trick actually doesn't work in MSVC -- it mangles private method names differently than public method names) 01:49:40 (both cases assumed IA-64 ABI, as in GCC) 01:49:52 foom: it also has different virtual method table, I know 01:50:16 and different exception handling schema (though one that might be ultimately easier to support than IA-64 ABI) 01:50:57 windows 64bit exception handling scheme is pretty crappy 01:51:02 (namely, SBCL/win32 already "partially" catches MSVC++ exceptions, it just won't understand them properly, afaik) 01:51:13 oh, we're talking about sbcl now? :) 01:51:30 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx60-1-163.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:52:04 *nyef* shudders at the thought of Win64 unwind tables. 01:52:04 foom: well, windows/amd64 does have the handler tables, but there's a function to dynamically register those if they aren't known at link time 01:52:36 nyef: just call that RegisterSomethingSomething routine that registers the handler dynamically 01:52:47 don't remember the name now 01:53:03 p_l|home: Sure, except that the tables are defined to constrain your calling convention. 01:53:14 ouch 01:53:34 They took a tolerable design (DWARF 2) and completely screwed it up. 01:53:51 heh 01:54:03 win64's exception handling is much simpler than DWARF, but completely destroys the flexibility provided 01:54:34 I'd like to actually get one day a full story about how some of those SNAFUs happened... MS internal culture can go weird ways 01:54:45 (at least from what I heard) 01:55:04 On the upside, unlike most ABIs, Win64 SEH explicitly supports CL NLX-from-UWP-cleanup semantics. 01:56:08 maybe it was done to support .NET better, I wonder... 01:56:10 ... which reminds me. 01:56:31 foom: Did you ever try such an unwind on Linux when you were messing with table-based unwind? 01:56:52 I don't recall. 01:57:02 Fair enough. 01:57:12 nyef: what's NLX ? 01:57:23 it's forbidden in C++, but the underlying machinery might let you do it. 01:57:26 non-local-exit, I guess 01:57:30 I seem to recall looking into it once and seeing that there wasn't anything in the typical implementation to prevent it. 01:57:36 fe[nl]ix: Non-Local eXit. 02:01:03 ejohnson [~elliott@99-100-65-163.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:05 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:07:20 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:07:29 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-178-106.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:09:11 -!- m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:47 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:02 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:10:07 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:11:34 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:11:55 -!- btbngr [~btbgnr@212.183.140.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:13:36 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 02:14:40 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:15:27 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:16:48 -!- ralfD [~user@82.113.121.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:17:07 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:19:19 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:50 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:23:45 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 02:30:01 manze [~manze@221.223.124.68] has joined #lisp 02:33:09 (defmacro len (list) 02:33:09 `,(length list)) 02:33:09 (len '(1 2)) => 2 02:33:09 (len ( 1 2)) => 2 02:33:29 why result is same? 02:33:35 *p_l|home* wonders the use of that other than learning exercise 02:33:49 manze: because len in both cases got a two element list 02:34:08 lisp macros don't work on character level, but on the data structure 02:34:39 Try writing len as a function and see what it returns . 02:34:52 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-135.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35:02 for messing with "text" of the source code, you need reader macros. And yes, notice the difference when you define len as a function 02:35:10 Or maybe try macroexpand. 02:38:38 thanks all 02:39:12 -!- manze [~manze@221.223.124.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:39:17 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:21 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:39:53 EngiNerd [~quassel@cpe-76-179-25-166.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:13 Can someone here tell me what "#1=#..." means and why I keep seeing it? 02:42:13 Probably because you have *print-circle* set to T. And see the topic for #1=#... 02:42:31 ...I don't get it 02:42:53 It's like this: I run function a, and get the right values set 02:42:54 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 02:42:59 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7362d4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:43:25 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7216bc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:29 I run function b, which calls function a, and from that point on function a seems to store #1=#value instead of #value 02:44:29 Just found Lython. It's fun. It is a Lisp to Python compiler. I can do (def foo (n) (lambda (x) (+ x n))) in ipython and call ((foo 6) 5) to get 11! :-) 02:48:17 hohoho [~hohoho@bm202-238-183-108.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:48:25 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: good night folks] 02:48:42 Enginerd: Look up clhs 2.4.8.15 02:48:47 clhs 2.4.8.15 02:48:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 02:49:38 And without knowing exactly what is being returned and what the functions are, I can't tell what #1=#value vs #value really means. What is value? 02:49:40 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:50:09 Well, probably more like #object than #value ... it's a CLOS object pointer 02:51:47 Maybe pasting the exact output would help. 02:53:20 CL-USER> (myagents (myworld testsim)) 02:53:20 #1=# 02:55:26 That seems odd. Especially if calling b causes a to return different things. Maybe a is modifying a constant. 02:55:53 Or maybe the searchagent object contains a copy of itself? 02:56:14 Well, that could very well be related to the issue 02:56:14 Engi: Cyclic structures. 02:56:35 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:56:35 I'm attempting to have object x and object y, with each object containing a pointer to the other 02:56:52 Which produces a cyclic graph ... 02:56:59 Which is printed using that syntax ... 02:57:13 Okay 02:57:45 *EngiNerd* apparently needs to find a different way of doing this then 02:58:14 Why? 02:58:31 There's nothing bloody well wrong with having cyclic structures or printing them like that. 02:58:46 Okay, but how do I access the elements of myagents then? 02:58:57 Normally. 02:59:02 There is no magic here. 02:59:09 This is just a way of printing cyclic structures. 02:59:25 Well, like, I want to call (mymethod (myagents (myworld testsim))) 02:59:58 So, what's the problem? 03:01:07 Well, it appears that calling mymethod that way is what triggers the error 03:01:16 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:01:40 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-22-158.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:54 Well, look at the error, then. 03:03:28 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-131-123.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:05:06 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@bm202-238-183-108.bmobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:05:21 hohoho [~hohoho@bm202-238-183-108.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:07:28 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@bm202-238-183-108.bmobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:07:50 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-52-67.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:18 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-22-158.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:10:00 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-112-208.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:03 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: tltstc] 03:12:38 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-52-67.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:12:59 Okay, here's what I *think* is going on 03:13:19 Given this: 03:13:25 CL-USER> (myagents (myworld testsim)) 03:13:25 #1=# 03:13:51 I then proceed to call (nth i (myagents...)) which gives me nil 03:15:33 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-1177754746.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:15:35 Looks like you expect myagents to return a list. But it didn't. 03:15:41 Good morning everyone! 03:15:43 So maybe myagents is broken. 03:15:52 Good evening! 03:16:57 nth should signal an error though shouldn't it? 03:17:13 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-76-111-33-142.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:17:23 Well, now I have this: 03:17:32 CL-USER> (myagents (myworld testsim)) 03:17:32 (#1=#) 03:17:36 and get the same error 03:18:10 EngiNerd: Before, you said it returned, now you say you get an error. 03:18:20 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:18:31 Nope, had them backwards, my bad 03:18:32 What is the value of i? It had better be 0 for your example. 03:18:42 Engi: You are very bad at reporting. 03:18:56 I know, my apologies 03:19:33 EngiNerd: The last result is a list of a single element and when you call nth with a value larger than the length of the list, it returns nil. 03:19:35 but ... for a one-element list, wouldn't nth 1 give me the item? 03:19:41 No. 03:19:50 You want the zeroth item. 03:19:59 Ohhhhhh 03:19:59 EngiNerd: Only if you pas 0 to nth. 03:20:12 Jeez, I thought indices started with 1 in Lisp XD 03:20:13 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:09 YES 03:21:10 Booyeah 03:21:18 I never would have figured that out, thanks XD 03:24:43 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:25:25 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:28:54 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-37-141.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:29:31 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-54-219.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:33:06 delYsid` [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 03:33:54 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:34:06 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.68.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:35:14 EngiNerd: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/051228.html 03:35:30 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:52 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:35:57 Sweet, thanks, bookmarking this :) 03:35:58 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.174.168] has joined #lisp 03:36:07 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 03:36:31 it's not that common to run into these ciruclar structures, but that's as good an explanation as I've seen. 03:36:54 Good call, he explains it pretty well :) 03:37:34 hohoho [~hohoho@p021285.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:40:01 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-1177754746.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:41:56 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p021285.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 03:41:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 03:44:25 -!- EngiNerd [~quassel@cpe-76-179-25-166.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: For the record: :3] 03:46:19 -!- az [~az@p5796CD90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:47:03 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-135.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 03:48:51 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has left #lisp 03:51:21 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-36-198.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:07 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-135.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:53:53 -!- Salamander_ 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[~Salamande@ppp118-210-50-215.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:19:56 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 06:19:56 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 06:19:56 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:20:29 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 06:21:38 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-26-134.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:03 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-66-152.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:24:58 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:32:40 -!- p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:37:11 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007008.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 06:38:47 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:41:29 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925256056.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:41:43 wvdschel [~wim@minimusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 06:41:43 -!- wvdschel [~wim@minimusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Changing host] 06:41:43 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 06:43:29 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:43:52 good morning 06:46:27 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 06:47:20 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007008.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:47:35 -!- gigamonkey [~user@24-176-255-130.static.reno.nv.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:52:40 eno__ [~eno@70.137.141.204] has joined #lisp 06:54:02 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:54:26 hello mvilleneuve 06:54:32 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 06:57:05 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:00:15 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:02:28 mgr [~mgr@newbox.phinn.de] has joined #lisp 07:02:34 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:11 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:04:13 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B32629C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:19 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B327AB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:11:14 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:14:09 splittist [~John@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:14:13 morning 07:15:09 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:16:06 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:16:21 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:16:48 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441776.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:21:45 -!- strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:22:29 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441951.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 07:23:03 hi splittist; how's your hacking going? 07:23:34 strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:50 tcr: it's stalled the last couple of weeks or so - real life getting in the way, and a bit of premature Second System Syndrome as well (: 07:26:11 tcr: how's it going in the Sekrit Volcano Lair? 07:28:49 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 07:29:21 The more stuff you do, there more you discover yet to be done :-) 07:32:34 Hopefully you also discover that a lot of the stuff you thought was worthwhile isnt. 07:33:49 Zhivago: I'm still waiting for that revelation... 07:34:01 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:34:23 Things were fine when I was just coding-up some throwaway stuff - worked for months. But the moment I started trying to /design/ something... 07:37:19 A lot of things that I thought were good ideas have turned out to be bad ones. 07:37:37 Unfortunately a lot of those are also close to the heart of modern lisp systems. 07:38:35 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:40:41 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75516e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:31 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-135.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:47:09 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:49:21 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/session] has joined #lisp 07:53:32 -!- eno__ [~eno@70.137.141.204] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:53:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:53:32 -!- vandemar [cohen@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:53:32 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:53:32 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has 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[~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:32:31 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 09:32:37 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 09:32:49 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:36:03 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:36:03 -!- stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:36:08 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 09:36:14 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:36:45 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:37:30 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 09:37:50 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:43:50 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:03 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-56.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:45:42 humbug [~humbug@unaffiliated/humbug] has joined #lisp 09:45:48 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:49:24 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@wsip-70-166-115-251.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:49:29 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ljlvlwvdethxpbhq] has left #lisp 09:50:26 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:43 hi folks. i have a lisp project announcement with video demonstration. what do people think? http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com/ 09:52:47 it's the top post 09:52:53 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75516e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53:39 dto: why not. You could use as modifier keys for emacs! :-) 09:53:44 +it 09:53:59 pjb: what? 09:54:03 you mean dancemacs? :) 09:54:08 Yes! 09:54:13 :) 09:54:18 i don't know if emacs supports joystick 09:54:35 hmm 09:54:36 And you know, for those alt meta hyper super mega sub control modifiers... 09:54:38 i guess there is 09:57:27 H4ns```` [~user@pD4B9E9D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:31 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:57:47 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59:07 Xach: hi, would you consider my latest http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com post for inclusion in planetlisp? it's a video 10:00:15 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-askyrfgadvagebpx] has joined #lisp 10:00:33 dto: so you will write a music/rythm analyzer, along with a choregraphy generator? 10:01:05 pjb: nope 10:01:13 pjb: something else entirely 10:01:18 dance gestural input 10:01:21 Parameterized with a 3D model of the being that will dance. 10:01:22 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:01:23 -!- H4ns``` [~user@p579F8C59.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:01:30 pjb: What's wrong with C-, and M- ? 10:01:39 It's not exceedingly complex. 10:01:39 http://github.com/dto/xe2/tree/master/xiodance check the org file there pjb for an explanation 10:01:50 humbug: nothing. Some people use foot pedals for them though. 10:02:13 People often complain about emacs, without having ever used it. 10:03:53 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:33 Joreji [~thomas@83-160.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:06:45 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 10:09:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@83-160.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:09:38 tfb [~tfb@92.41.120.95.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:10:53 -!- frodef` is now known as frodef 10:13:37 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 10:13:55 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:14:12 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:14:44 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:11 loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has joined #lisp 10:32:34 drforr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:00 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.70] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:43:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.11] has joined #lisp 10:44:34 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A7D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:30 humbug: really? 10:51:43 yates: Really. 10:51:49 bah! 10:53:47 where's stassats these days? did he go to ilp? 10:53:56 ilc 11:01:39 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:06:01 dbrunner [~user@mail.systemhaus-brunner.de] has joined #lisp 11:08:14 wvdschel [~wim@minimusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 11:08:14 -!- wvdschel [~wim@minimusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Changing host] 11:08:14 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 11:08:14 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 11:10:42 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:15:40 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:55 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:16:17 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:16:44 Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:18:44 lonstein_ [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:08 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:19:08 -!- lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:19:56 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:20:22 lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 11:24:13 rtoym_ [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:55 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:56 -!- rtoym_ is now known as rtoym 11:25:46 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 11:26:44 ~g drives me crazy 11:27:11 it's an offense to an otherwise perfect letter 11:27:39 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.167.78] has joined #lisp 11:32:03 -!- delYsid` is now known as delYsid 11:33:51 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 11:34:56 -!- EngiNerd [~quassel@cpe-76-179-25-166.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: For the record: :3] 11:34:57 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 11:37:40 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-37-141.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:37:44 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-37-141.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:38:08 xinming [~hyy@115.221.5.71] has joined #lisp 11:38:30 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 11:41:42 is there a way to convince ~G to use exponential form for numbers iff the absolute value of exponent is greater than X? 11:43:45 mega1: patch the implementation (but is implementation dependent behavior for ~G allowed?). Otherwise: ~/FORMAT:G/ 11:44:03 hi 11:45:26 pjb: patching is not an option. But I fail to see what ~G is good for. Tried to use it several times, always ended up rolling my own. 11:47:52 no patching the implementation!? Are you using Allegro again, mega1? :-) 11:48:25 Krystof: just trying to write portable code for a change 11:48:44 boooring 11:50:26 mega1: ~G selects ~F or ~E depending on dd which is a function of n and q, so the short answer to your question is no. 11:51:13 So it seems. Has any of you ever found it useful? 11:52:28 Is it actually consistent with Fortran's G? 11:54:36 *mega1* didn't even know that F has a G 11:55:01 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.108] has joined #lisp 11:57:12 G for generalized, or something 12:00:32 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:04:28 grr, where is my paste 12:04:31 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115759 12:04:44 high tech, I know 12:04:57 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 12:04:59 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 12:06:05 antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-74-233.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:08 -!- jweiss_ [~weissj@cpe-069-134-025-078.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:13:24 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-askyrfgadvagebpx] has left #lisp 12:17:18 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:17:36 timor [~timor@port-92-195-125-229.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:19:10 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-125-229.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:20:19 TeMPOraL [~user@erlang.pnet.com.pl] has joined #lisp 12:23:35 LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:24:20 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-74-233.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 12:25:41 mega1: Is that the output you want from ~G? 12:26:26 rtoym: that's the kind of output I want, but as pjb said it's in conflict with the spec. 12:28:03 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-178-106.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:21 Yeah. I think ~G tries to print out as many significant digits as possible, using either ~F or ~E. Which kind of constrains the output. 12:29:11 I use ~G a fair amount when I don't want ~E output all the time for "small" numbers, but do want ~E for large numbers. 12:30:06 but it uses ~E for small numbers: (format nil "~g" 0.002) => "2.000e-3" 12:30:29 (format nil "~g" 2000) => "2000. " 12:32:36 Yeah, I think ~g won't print .002 as .002 because at the point where the decision is made, you don't know how many trailing zeroes there are, so ~e is used. 12:34:59 minion: truename 12:35:00 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``truename''. 12:35:15 clhs truename 12:35:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tn.htm 12:35:50 this calls for trivial-super~G... 12:36:54 p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:37:17 thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has joined #lisp 12:37:31 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:37:33 splittist: Your trivial-super-G, mega1's trivial-super-G or mine? :-) 12:37:39 thanks rtoym 12:37:44 http://fpaste.org/agYI/ 12:38:21 why is it that, in this slime-sprof-browser, the function called on line 34 is parenthised while others are not? 12:38:35 rtoym: preferably someone else's, obviously! You and mega1 should feel free to collaborate (: 12:38:57 s/parenthised/parenthesized/ 12:43:13 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:43:25 ? 12:45:14 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has left #lisp 12:46:59 no takers? 12:47:38 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 12:48:31 yates: You mean like on lines... 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, and so on? 12:48:59 nyef: yes 12:49:22 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-6.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:49:30 It is, in some respect, the "internal" name of the function. 12:49:38 homie` [~user@xdsl-213-168-95-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:49:43 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-213-168-95-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:49:46 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 12:49:51 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:50:08 I note that you're not complaining about (FLET #:WITHOUT-INTERRUPTS-BODY-[BLOCK369]374) 12:50:31 Oh, god. You're using WITH-MUTEX. 12:50:52 i'm simply wondering why some functions are parenthesized while others are not. why the different syntax? 12:51:18 nyef: this is sbcl, and i'm usling quicklisp to run the weblocks-demo 12:51:26 under linux 12:51:34 under emacs/slime/linux 12:51:46 Yeah, okay, nevermind the with-mutex thing. 12:52:14 So, the different syntax comes from the various different things that the compiler calls functions internally. 12:52:16 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-6.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:53:05 you mean whether its a function versus a macro, e.g.? 12:53:13 s/its/it's/ 12:53:31 Something like that. Or if it's an "anonymous" function, or a "local" function, or... 12:53:51 or a private function in a package? 12:54:14 Less that, as you can see from lines 4 and 5. 12:55:44 ... What's with the "Unknown component" messages? sprof not gc-safe or something? 12:56:28 Or are they not in heap space? 12:56:35 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 12:56:37 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 12:56:55 i have no idea 12:58:49 in fact, i have no idea what i'm doing 12:58:54 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:59:00 ah - there you are! 12:59:12 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:59:35 i don't understand meanings of the three percentage columns 12:59:40 yates: Drugs? 12:59:51 humbug: you offering? 13:00:01 yates: still profiling? 13:00:04 yes 13:00:07 :* 13:00:30 i understand the meaning of two columns 13:01:09 that would be a start - can you please explain it to me? 13:01:20 self columns means how much time was spend by the code of that function 13:01:38 and total is how much time was spend in that function, but while calling other functions from its body 13:01:54 i guess i need to ask "percent of WHAT"? 13:02:01 of the total time spent profiling? 13:02:14 yes, something like that 13:02:29 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:18 total[n] = total[n-1] + self[n] 13:05:28 that's too hard for me 13:05:51 total is the assumulated self 13:05:56 accumulated 13:06:05 Freudian typo... 13:06:39 i should really read the code of sb-sprof to understand what Cumul is 13:06:55 or ask jsnell 13:07:22 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:08:15 i guess the cumul means how often the function was found in the call stack 13:08:39 that would be useful 13:09:07 so, you can see that all the code is running within call-with-mutex and process-connection, and from weblocks it is render-dirty-widgets, etc 13:10:40 that makes sens and is really useful to know 13:11:32 oh, and i mixed total and cumul 13:11:41 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@erlang.pnet.com.pl] has quit [Quit: beb] 13:11:51 so, what i said about total is about cumul, and what jdz said about cumul is about total 13:12:05 if i didn't mix it further 13:12:28 i think it's the other way around... 13:13:12 wait, let me think about it 13:13:21 jdz: why didn't you say "all the code is running within FLET #:WIHTOUT-INTERRUPTS-BODY-[BLOCK369]374"? 13:13:29 i.e., line 2 13:14:21 yates: well, it's not "all code" (because the number is not 100%), and i skipped over things (intentionally) 13:14:44 did i say "all"? i definitely meant "most" 13:14:52 that's not really the point 13:14:52 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:15:04 the "mostest" would be the top function, no? 13:15:18 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:19 yes, but the mostest might not be the most interesting 13:15:31 ah, but "interesting" is relative 13:15:34 because it is an internal function (see, FLET!) 13:15:45 just in terms of data presented, i guess is what i'm thinking 13:15:57 clhs flet 13:15:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 13:16:32 btw, you can hide swank functions by pressing s 13:17:24 sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has joined #lisp 13:17:34 right. 13:19:06 stassats: On a different subject, remember changing the syntax of ?\; in xemacs? 13:19:12 yeah 13:19:32 It somehow breaks completion in the repl. 13:20:00 in what fashion? 13:20:06 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:20:36 Before the change, I could do lisp::*lisp- and get a list. After the change, I only get one answer. 13:21:12 Hi everyone! 13:21:28 that's strange, can you give me that ?\; bit? 13:21:51 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:22:23 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 13:22:23 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 13:22:23 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:22:58 When I type: (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "il-core"), I get: Cannot save core with multiple threads running. [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 13:23:20 stassats: (add-hook 'slime-repl-mode-hook 13:23:21 What is the solution to this? 13:23:21 (lambda () 13:23:23 (let ((new-syntax-table (copy-syntax-table))) 13:23:25 (modify-syntax-entry ?\; "@" new-syntax-table) 13:23:26 (set-syntax-table new-syntax-table) 13:23:28 t))) 13:23:50 drl: do you try to save it from a slime session? 13:23:58 drl: don't have multiple threads running when saving lisp and dying 13:24:13 adeht, yes. 13:24:58 drl: try it without slime.. 13:25:11 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:25:42 Ok, logical enough. Thanks. 13:25:47 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:22 perhaps slime needs a slime-disconnect-save-lisp-and-die... 13:26:29 stassats: After the syntax change, the completion is just lisp::*lisp-package*. Previously, there was also lisp::*lisp-implementation-version* and lisp::*lisp-initialization-functions*. 13:26:47 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.162] has joined #lisp 13:27:18 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 13:27:41 splittist, yes. That would be much better. 13:28:59 rtoym: indeed 13:29:44 Seems weird. I wouldn't have expected the syntax to do that. 13:30:28 it seems to parse the package wrong 13:31:28 My problem could be solved if slime had a function send-input-anyway-dammit-even-if-it-looks-incomplete. 13:31:39 Night. 13:31:55 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:23 Bronsa [~bronsa@host242-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:33:31 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 13:33:31 rtoym: (defun send-input-anyway-dammit-even-if-it-looks-incomplete () (interactive)(slime-repl-send-input t)) 13:34:15 Really? I'll try it. 13:35:01 really! 13:35:18 oh wait 13:35:29 "With prefix argument send the input even if the parenthesis are not balanced." 13:35:39 rtoym: M- RET 13:35:59 doh 13:36:17 C-u RET 13:36:19 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:36:28 I just tried C-u RET. 13:39:15 I'm happy with that. No more syntax hacking, then. Whew 13:39:48 Although it still seems like a bug if the package isn't parsed correctly if the syntax of ?\; is changed. 13:39:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:40:03 Thanks adeht and stassats. 13:40:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:42:02 One wish item: Sometimes I wish C-u M-x slime would prompt for the coding to use. 13:42:15 (Filename completion would be kind of nice there too.) 13:42:44 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:42:56 i guess it should work with C-x C-m c 13:43:23 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:43:28 i mean it should be made to work with it 13:43:33 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 13:43:44 if it doesn't 13:43:54 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-141-186-38.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 13:44:03 I didn't even know that existed. 13:45:29 One thing that I have noticed is that my in my repl buffer, it says Latin1, but slime net coding is utf-8-unix and everything works as if it were utf8. 13:45:39 Draggor [~Draggor@99.141.186.38] has joined #lisp 13:46:00 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has joined #lisp 13:46:00 my repl says it's in unicode 13:46:32 The buffer mode line right? 13:46:37 yes 13:46:59 I wonder why that is. Everything works though. 13:47:14 then it's not a problem! 13:47:16 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: away!away!] 13:47:53 Just a bit confusing, is all. 13:48:12 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:53 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.167.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:48:54 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:55:24 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:51 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 13:56:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-86.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:56:14 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-fecyugtwwcrujwyu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:56:14 gigamonkey [~user@24-176-255-130.static.reno.nv.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:08 -!- humbug [~humbug@unaffiliated/humbug] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:59:16 I don't know how to do anything without using slime. And the sbcl user manual doesn't help much. How do I change directories, compile and load, etc., from the sbcl command line? Is there some documentation somewhere? 13:59:44 you can start slime without therads 14:00:18 or you can kill them before saving your image 14:00:27 which is better, i think 14:00:54 drl: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/ 14:00:56 drl: why are you watching at the sbcl manual to learn about slime? 14:01:18 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host242-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:01:39 compile and load: (load (compile-file "foo")) 14:01:42 i don't think drl was asking about slime 14:01:53 Ok, I misread once again... 14:02:21 drl: switch to the *inferior-lisp* buffer, and then (mapc #'sb-thread:destroy-thread (butlast (sb-thread:list-all-threads))) and (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die ...) 14:02:23 change directories: (setf *default-pathname-defaults* (pathname "/new/directory/")) But there are other ways. 14:02:29 stassats: Ok, I misread once again... 14:02:37 drl: perhaps you should have a look at Chapter 24 System Construction of CLHS. 14:04:21 oh, even better 14:04:39 drl: just do ,disconnect and then switch to *inferior-lisp* and do S-L-A-D 14:05:13 does slime-sprof-browser have a way to display the profiling information by hierarchically by function (like a structure chart)? 14:05:22 s/by // 14:05:23 no 14:06:15 that's not good 14:06:26 patches are welcome! 14:06:52 stassats, thanks, that helps a lot. pjb, thanks, I'll look at chapter 24. Thanks to the rest of you also. 14:07:36 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:08:06 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:44 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:07 sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@61.48.58.228] has joined #lisp 14:13:25 is weblocks dead? 14:13:44 no, it just smells funny 14:13:55 yates: the mailing list seems pretty active to me 14:14:06 ah, ok. 14:14:20 the irc channel is not 14:14:35 Bronsa [~bronsa@host242-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:17:45 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 14:17:56 oh no 14:18:44 the top Cumul function has a subroutine: "Unknown component: #x10067F7150" 97.88 14:19:51 isn't slime-sprof profiling only components of lisp inside the current slime session? how can it not be known? 14:21:09 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.171.33] has joined #lisp 14:21:27 Well, my first question would be, "is that even in the heap space at all?" 14:21:50 hm. I downloaded ccl version 1.5 from the download page and/or as svn on a Linux 2.6.31-22 Ubuntu box and it crashes with "segmentation fault" ... 14:21:58 any idea? 14:22:19 nyef: the heap space of what process? 14:22:24 emacs? 14:22:40 dbrunner: That's /awful/ unspecific... And sounds like the sort of question for the CCL people in their channel (#ccl maybe?) 14:22:53 stassats, what did you mean by "do S-L-A-D"? 14:23:08 drl: Save-Lisp-And-Die 14:23:14 yates: Which process is the profile data coming from? 14:24:04 stassats, :>) ok. Thanks. 14:24:05 Yeah, awful is the right word; well I'll give the CCL people a try ;) 14:24:35 dbrunner: try to recompile the kernel 14:25:31 in lisp-kernel/linuxx8632 issue "make clean all" 14:25:38 nyef: i imagine it's under one of these: http://fpaste.org/M80V/ 14:25:53 (from pstree) 14:26:32 stassats, in the *inferior-lisp* buffer, how do I get the sbcl prompt? 14:26:36 yates: Yes, but you'll notice that the five {sbcl} processes are actually threads in sbcl(2951)... And you're not profiling elisp code. 14:26:53 drl: it is right there 14:27:46 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:19 nyef: so the encompassing process is sbcl? 14:28:45 stassats: Thx. That is now working... 14:28:53 drl: can you reload the system from scratch? I would rather launch a new inferior lisp, and reload the system and script to save the image. 14:28:55 what is a subprocess anyway? 14:29:01 a thread? 14:29:04 yates: in lisp, process = thread. 14:29:09 I was more familiar with the SBCL but have to use CCL at the moment. 14:29:11 does a thread get a different process number? 14:29:13 stassats, no, I just have a blinking cursor. No * prompt. 14:29:27 yates: this depends on the configuration or version of the kernel. 14:29:28 Threads have a different TID, but share PIDs. 14:29:43 At least, under modern Linux they do, and under POSIX AIUI. 14:29:56 drl: then it must be the wrong inferior lisp buffer, look in the list of buffers 14:30:02 (that's C-x C-b) 14:30:08 hi nyef 14:30:17 Hello dto. 14:30:34 i made a lot of progress while you slept :) 14:30:38 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:31:06 what about XIOBEAT as an alternative name? 14:32:13 Not horrible. I keep half-expecting a "Zion" joke, given your naming theme, though. 14:32:19 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:33:19 nyef: so how does pstree know which processes are independent and which to show "growing" from another process? are those processes "spawned" by the superior process? 14:33:44 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-56.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:33:46 -!- serichse` is now known as serichsen 14:33:55 yates: Have a poke around /proc/ for a while, for some "interesting" pids. 14:34:09 It shouldn't take you long to figure it out. 14:34:33 dbrunner: rebuild the lisp kernel in lisp-kernel/linuxx86 14:34:53 Fade: Thx. That did the job! 14:35:18 i'm not sure what causes the problem, but at least the fix is easy. 14:36:08 Yeah. Thanks. 14:36:17 I keep that fix in mind ;) 14:36:26 Now it works as expected. 14:38:00 nyef: ok i poked and am still ignorant 14:38:04 got any hints? 14:38:11 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:38:24 ignorant w/r/t my question 14:39:04 i discovered the file descriptor (fd) is there - that's cool 14:39:10 not relevent to my question though 14:39:32 Hang on, trying to remember how this works. 14:40:22 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 14:40:48 Yeah, have a look at /proc//task 14:40:58 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.171.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:41:37 yes 14:41:41 i see that 14:42:06 so they are tasks that were spawned (or otherwise somehow created) by the process 14:42:21 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 14:44:27 They are the /threads/ in the process. 14:44:46 -!- sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@61.48.58.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:45:53 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-kjsfxewzvrapyzda] has joined #lisp 14:47:41 i thought you said a few minutes ago that threads share the same pid 14:47:55 these are different pids 14:48:20 linux uses light weight processes to model threads. 14:49:17 Fade: that makes a lot of sense then 14:50:36 yates: They are only "sort-of" pids. If you call getpid(2) from any one of them, you get the same pid. 14:51:26 -!- dbrunner [~user@mail.systemhaus-brunner.de] has left #lisp 14:51:44 so the documentation for pstree lies? 14:51:48 they say these are pids 14:51:55 s/they say/it says/ 14:52:44 "pstree -c -p" is the command i issued 14:53:10 -p Show PIDs. PIDs are shown as decimal numbers in parentheses after each process name. 14:53:13 ... -p implies -c. 14:53:22 tangent 14:53:43 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2BE6.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:54:06 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:54:10 Actually, the pstree manual page looks pretty bad, considering. 14:54:30 *Xach* prepares for the last day of ILC 14:54:44 carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.81] has joined #lisp 14:54:56 So, again, these numbers are sort-of pids, but they aren't "really" pids. 14:55:33 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:56:02 nyef: so are you saying that emacs started a sbcl thread? 14:56:18 No, emacs started an SBCL process. 14:56:32 That process spawned additional threads. 14:56:43 -!- gigamonkey [~user@24-176-255-130.static.reno.nv.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:56:55 process/thread/task - how to delineate? 14:57:08 is a task a process or a thread or neither 14:58:00 sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 14:58:38 I _think_ the term task only acquired meaning when linux grew process groups in the scheduler. 14:58:49 I have to ask, why are you digging into things at this level? 15:00:09 -!- xan_ [~xan@gate.kikuei.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:00:57 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:01:46 Fade: it started out trying to profile something. some strange results in the browser led to heaps, which led to processes, which led to this 15:02:44 i'm not sure how profiling a weblocks app would work; it's CPS interpreter introduces a pretty opaque box inside lisp. 15:02:57 CPS? 15:02:59 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:08 minion: CPS 15:03:10 CPS: CPS stands for Continuation Passing Style. http://www.cliki.net/CPS 15:03:11 but if that's what you're doing, you should email the weblocks mailing list. 15:03:24 thwap to me 15:03:41 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:28 thwap? 15:05:21 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host242-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:05:28 http://www.angryflower.com/aposter.html 15:05:38 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:06:32 minion: thwap to Fade 15:06:33 Fade: please see thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 15:07:00 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:33 i've long had an itchy quote finger. 15:07:37 I blame lisp 15:08:16 lisp doesn't forgive you misplacement of ' 15:08:18 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:08:28 it definitely doesn't :) 15:09:39 what association does the string "thwap" have with any of the urls minion listed? 15:10:22 imagine me getting slapped in the back of the head by bob. 15:10:27 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:10:53 ah 15:11:02 "it's CPS..." 15:11:15 i'm slow, but i get there (usually) eventually 15:11:27 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 15:11:55 stassats, success! I hope. Now, how do I load the core image I just saved? 15:12:05 --core 15:12:34 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-69-227-148-197.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:08 i'm going to estimate the spectral inversion matrix of my retro encabulator while its minimum relative entropy is extruding from the girdlespring. 15:14:46 i.e., i'm going to the gym - back in an hour 15:15:02 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-213-168-95-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:15:16 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-213-168-95-119.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:15:36 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w 15:16:50 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:17:24 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17:50 homie [~user@xdsl-213-168-95-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:18:01 lune [614c3062@gateway/web/freenode/ip.97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 15:18:50 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-69-227-148-197.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:20:27 wbooze [~user@xdsl-213-168-95-119.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:41 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-18.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 15:23:58 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:25:20 roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 15:25:25 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 15:25:36 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@85.22.93.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:26:43 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:31 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:28:23 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724574.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:28:47 how would I determine which package a function #'foo belongs to? 15:29:17 you can't, they don't 15:29:22 Shaftoe: function objects don't belong to packages 15:29:36 hm. 15:30:02 will sbcl threads be affected non-trivially by the new workqueues in the 2.6.36 kernel? 15:30:26 Shaftoe: symbols belong to packages, however; if you know the symbolic name of a function, you can find the symbol's package 15:30:54 hargettp: how do I do that? 15:31:06 Shaftoe: (symbol-package 'foo) 15:31:11 ^^ 15:31:14 Fade: at the top level, what's happening is that i'm running weblocks-demo and it's quite slow, e.g., 10 seconds or so to refresh the page when clicking on a colume to resort the page. 15:31:54 also, i'm new to lisp, weblocks, slime, and am trying to learn by doing - stassats suggested i attempt to trace the problem myself 15:32:30 i'm loading weblocks et al. via quicklisp under emacs/slime 15:32:36 on fedora 13 15:33:14 tsuru: what do you mean ? workqueues are only used internally by the kernel, they shouldn't affect userspace 15:33:22 thanks! 15:33:23 back in an hour - if you can help please reply and i'll read when i get back 15:34:18 yates: Do you have javascript turned on? 15:34:29 -!- gz_ [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz_] 15:34:29 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz_] 15:35:21 fe[nl]ix: thanks that answers my question. 15:37:25 Zhivago: yes 15:39:13 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:39:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:50 Joreji [~thomas@83-070.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:43:10 I thought that kind of thing was handled in-page without a server call if javascript is present. 15:43:28 You might want to use chrome and look at what the page is up to. 15:54:33 josemanuel [~josemanue@244.252.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:56:23 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:58:13 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:41 stassats, I'm a little confused. I thought I could save a core image containing all the libraries my program depends on, so that I don't have to waste time loading them each time I want to add code to my program. Is my thinking wrong? 15:59:30 no 16:00:58 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:01:13 stassats, if I load the core image from the bash command line, how can I program using slime? 16:01:19 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-kjsfxewzvrapyzda] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01:43 you need to start a swank server and connect to it 16:04:12 stassats, where is the documentation that tells how to do that? 16:04:31 slime manual 16:05:16 drl: you can load swank in the image, but you must not launch the swank server before saving the image. 16:05:40 On the other hand, since slime and swank change so often, it is probably better to save an image without swank, and just let slime load the swank it wants everytim. 16:05:43 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:44 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:39 stassats, ok, thanks. I'll do some reading, and then come back. 16:08:17 pjb, hummm. I don't know it swank was launched or not. I guess it wasn't---at least not so far as I know. 16:08:33 in general, is it bad form to have a function definition appear after it is used in your source files? 16:08:53 Shaftoe: it's just a question of style. 16:09:00 pjb: it is, isn't it. 16:09:22 my OCD self won't allow for it, but I realize it's pretty involve to make sure they're all ordered. 16:09:24 I learned Pascal young, so I tend to sort my functions in postfix order. 16:09:38 But some people like the prefix order. 16:10:09 so the warnings that SBCL emits are not really structural warnings. They're just to catch other types of errors (e.g. for when the function truly is missing) 16:10:10 Shaftoe: how do you handle cycles in your call order? :) 16:10:28 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-114-2.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:10:33 dlowe: that, my OCD somehow allows for. =) 16:10:56 OCD is a condition. Nobody said it was rational or internally consistent =) 16:10:58 Shaftoe: well, you could automatize the sorting, applying a topological sort on the call graph, but it's better to sort them out logically so that it's easy to read and maintain. 16:11:09 pjb: yes. 16:11:29 well, I've just spent an hour doing this. I will now let the silt settle a bit and resume some other day. 16:12:03 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:15:08 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-37-141.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:16:01 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-86-236.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:16:14 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.108] has joined #lisp 16:16:50 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.174.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:18:30 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.54.54] has joined #lisp 16:19:41 yates: I'm not sure what's going on, but weblocks in quicklisp is definitely acting lethargic. 16:19:45 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:20:27 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75516e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:37 I heard that a common style in Haskell was to define the exported, important functions at the top, then write the definitions for the rest. Kinda similar to how drewc works, iirc 16:23:58 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724574.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 16:24:18 I wonder if single, first-class lexical environments can be used to implement lisp-n. 16:25:40 benny99 [~benny@f055208249.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:14 Moreover, I tend to write code bottom up, so it's more natural to write it in postfix order. 16:29:33 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:29:43 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:30:26 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:17 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:29 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:36:30 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 16:41:08 -!- wioux [~pswoo@c-24-130-116-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:42:23 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:07 -!- jweiss is now known as jweiss-lunch 16:52:09 stassats and pjb, success! thanks to you. This really speeds things up for me. 16:53:06 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 16:55:02 ... "I've written my own Forth system, so it's natural for me to write in postfix order" 16:56:46 Zhivago: i verified with linux's "top" that it's sbcl and not the browser (chrome) 16:57:20 Fade: thanks for the verification. i guess i'll hit the mailing list 17:00:20 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.10.167] has joined #lisp 17:00:45 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:03:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:05:14 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:07:12 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:32 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:16:46 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.54.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:16:49 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 17:18:19 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18:26 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.54.54] has joined #lisp 17:19:08 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:22:30 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 17:22:37 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 17:22:55 hi, is it possible to do something like this, (check-type foo (or string cons)) ? 17:23:19 oh, I've just tried it and it seems to be working:) 17:23:27 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:26:51 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu089.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:26:55 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.54.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:27:15 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.54.54] has joined #lisp 17:27:30 -!- splittist [~John@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Wow] 17:28:19 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[~josemanue@244.252.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 19:42:31 aidalgol [~user@132.181.15.43] has joined #lisp 19:45:16 aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:45:24 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:46:47 Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-141-186-38.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:52 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:08 francogrex [~user@109.130.174.230] has joined #lisp 19:52:48 Hello francogrex. 19:53:06 hi 19:53:06 francogrex, memo from nyef: Nevermind about the UNC filespec stuff for lp #492053. The magic function is GetFileAttributes(), and is exported from Kernel32. Unless you want to put together a proper patch for PROBE-FILE? 19:53:29 ok i see 19:53:43 I got curious after you left last night. 19:54:00 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-114-2.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:54:03 And since I still have /one/ working windows box, and it had a working SBCL on it... 19:54:32 nyef: so you got to fix the one above then, nice 19:54:34 (A half-decade-old SBCL, at that.) 19:54:52 Oh, I'm not planning to fix the bug, just point the way. 19:56:01 clhs mapcar 19:56:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 19:56:06 beach: Here's a fun fexpr hack: (map 'list #'list list) => (map list list list) 19:57:27 ok, i will see maybe i'll give it a shot, but you know given my limited experience can't guarantee success 19:58:06 by the way, how is the development status of cmucl? is it as active as sbcl? 19:58:22 Sure. But the worst case scenario is that you gain experience. 19:58:52 I have no idea how active CMUCL is. 19:59:07 I /know/ they don't have the same kind of release frequency SBCL has, though. 19:59:24 rtoym would be the person I'd ask about CMUCL. 19:59:50 What about cmucl? 20:01:10 Seems to be a question about how much development activity it gets. 20:01:14 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-13-15.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:01:53 Well, so far each month there has been a snapshot which is different from the previous month. 20:02:14 Sometimes big changes, sometimes little changes. 20:02:29 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has left #lisp 20:02:47 -!- roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 20:03:46 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-13-15.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 20:04:04 pwd 20:04:08 err... 20:04:21 IGNORE MEE!! 20:04:50 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:52 ozzloy@localhost:/home/irc/freenode/lisp 20:04:55 So it still sees regular activity? That's good. 20:05:32 rtoym: ok. I use it sometimes on my linux. I like it 20:05:53 Fairly regular. Maybe not a lot, but definitely not zero. It's been quite sometime where no monthly snapshot was released (except when a full release was done). 20:06:11 Out of curiousity, and because I've just spent quite a bit of time staring this today, does cmucl have the same "NIL is not of type NODE" bug that SBCL does? 20:06:21 Like last month with the release of 20b. 20:06:29 in my cmucl-init I added to load the iterate package on startup. 20:06:41 thanks drewc 20:07:01 nyef: Very likely. If it existed in cmucl and isn't fixed in sbcl, then almost assuredly it's still there. 20:07:07 drewc: look at that! The fexpr stuff! 20:07:12 drewc: *is all excited* 20:07:38 (map 'list #'list list) => (map list list list)! 20:08:18 rtoym: I don't actually know if it existed in CMUCL. 20:08:39 is there a format directive that is like ~A but always prints in lower case? 20:08:51 nyef: It probably still has it. I think trac shows some bugs with that. 20:09:15 I do know what causes it, at least. 20:09:23 bgs100_ [~ian@h38.29.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:32 but I get errors like using package ITERATE results in name conflicts for these symbols (collect iterate)... 20:09:57 francogrex: You're doing a use-package or similar? 20:10:10 yes, in the init 20:10:39 You need to shadow those symbols. (Or kill the ones in cmucl) 20:10:58 COLLECT is "the ultimate collection macro" or somesuch. 20:11:03 ah, so there are already there .... 20:11:20 They might not do what you're expecting, though. 20:11:22 it's cmucl specific 20:12:32 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:03 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-26.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:13:20 COLLECT is rather nice, although I've never used it myself. 20:13:42 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:13:57 Never used cmucl's iterate. 20:14:04 And never used the iterate package. 20:14:05 sykopomp: yikes, i prefer the first :) 20:14:16 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:14:20 drewc: How come? 20:14:32 That was my first impression, too. 20:14:51 -!- bgs100_ is now known as bgs100 20:15:03 but I think fexprs can be used to generalize the concept of a Lisp-N. 20:15:38 and have otherwise-standard functions evaluate symbolic arguments in specific sub-environments. 20:16:52 <_3b> sykopomp: how do you express (map 'list list list)? 20:17:31 _3b: (map list (var list) list) 20:17:49 _3b: this only changes the default sub-environment in which a -variable- is evaluated. 20:17:55 but you can always override it. 20:18:21 what problem is this solving? :P 20:18:30 (map list list list), then, is about the same as doing ((function map) (quote list) (function list) (variable list)) 20:18:34 -!- Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-47-139.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 20:18:46 <_3b> ah, i think i'd prefer being explicit for all of them, then using editor or reader to make it concise 20:18:48 drewc: It seemed like an obvious consequence of mixing explicit evaluation with a lisp-2. 20:19:23 "Why are we evaluating everything except the CAR of an sexp in the lexical env?" 20:19:50 _3b: I'm on the fence about it. It seemed a bit repugnant at first, but I'm warming up to the possibility of having lighterweight syntax, depending on context. 20:19:52 <_3b> same way i'd make ** an editor/reader shortcut for (special ...) 20:19:58 while still being able to be explicit whenever I want. 20:20:10 specially if it means I don't need to use the reader and slap these weird symbols everywhere. 20:20:30 this is actually pretty natural to do with nothing more than fexprs, eval, and environments. 20:20:31 <_3b> sykopomp: i like concise syntax, i just think it should be at a different level 20:21:09 _3b: I feel like this has some potential. I kinda want to try it out. 20:21:19 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:21:37 (map list list list) is kind of a scary example, in the same way that (defun list (list) (list list #list)) can be. 20:22:03 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-69-227-148-197.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:32 This can achieve similar syntax-minimalism to what Scheme does by being a lisp-1, but by still having the advantage(?) of multiple sub-environments with distinct bindings. 20:22:46 -if- it turns out to play nicely in practice, this sounds like a win-win to me. 20:22:52 (that's a big if) 20:22:56 *drewc* is not convinced 20:23:05 *sykopomp* is not yet, either, but thought it was worth pitching. 20:23:23 drewc: Shutt gives a lot of lip service to explicit vs implicit evaluation. 20:23:43 this seems to be one of those things where you wonder "well, why don't we make even -more- things explicitly evaluated?" 20:24:47 sykopomp: to what end? 20:24:50 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-32-44.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:25:18 drewc: for one, keeping lisp-n without needing reader macros to make it palatable. 20:25:20 *ehu* thinks drewc *didn't wonder that 20:26:39 and then generalizing it further so user can add their own subenvs, and operators that evaluate symbolic arguments in those subenvs, with an apparently high degree of smoothness. 20:27:17 and eventually, generalizing to to $vau? 20:27:29 it's all built on top of $vau, yes. 20:28:08 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:29:10 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29:37 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-232-111.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:29:39 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.174.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:05 well, i'm going to go ahead and say that MAP is a poor example, but these are fun things to play with so i'm not at all going to discourage you :). I will point you kmp's thing ... 20:30:24 Please do so. 20:31:59 *drewc* is searching 20:32:29 are you talking about his paper about special forms and fexprs? 20:34:01 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-69-227-148-197.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:34:18 nope, his one on integration of lisp-1 and lisp-2... 20:34:31 the source code is _somewhere_ 20:34:42 though that other one is good too 20:35:40 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-69-227-148-197.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:25 -!- Athas``` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:37:16 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:41:15 drewc: you're not talking about -Gabriel's- paper on lisp-2 vs lisp-1, are you? 20:41:19 no 20:41:22 ok 20:41:27 (which is also kmp's paper) 20:42:34 assuming we're talking about "Technical Issues in the Separation of Function Cells and Value Cells" 20:42:50 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 20:42:59 but there was a related work on his website (or so i thought) 20:43:15 benny` [~benny@i577A2D36.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:43:16 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:44:56 -!- benny` is now known as benny 20:46:29 drewc: everyone is asking about Drew Crampsie 20:47:39 what did i do? 20:47:51 i'm innocent i swear it! 20:47:53 got all notorious! 20:49:00 ? 20:49:16 sykopomp: can't find it... if it turns up i'll certainly let you know 20:49:18 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-232-111.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:49:49 Xach: well, tell them to hold next year's ILC in vancouver and the can ask me in person :P 20:50:02 they can* 20:50:08 doubtful 20:50:45 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:13 Why do some authors prefix function names with a #\%? To indicate that they are only used internally? 20:52:46 austinh: because some authors prefix function names with a #\%? To indicate 20:52:46 that they are only used internally. 20:52:49 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:53:33 generally, a #'%foo function will implement a corresponding #'foo 20:53:58 so it's just a convention, but a widely followed one 20:53:58 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54:15 Thanks. 20:54:56 drewc: thanks! 20:55:04 drewc: do you remember the gist of the paper? 20:55:09 in case I run into it? 20:56:28 sykopomp: it was essentially an outline for a lisp system that was both a lisp-1 and a lisp-n depending on which environment one evaluated the code 20:56:35 in 20:56:56 interesting 20:58:27 I was thinking that might be applicable to what I'd like to do, but please tell me if there's a better solution. I'd like to provide multiple backends to my package and have the current backend selected by the value of a special variable. I don't want every function to require that variable as a parameter, so I'm thinking that I'd have a common interface, with methods like save and delete and for each backend there would be %save ... 20:58:33 ... and %delete that do accept the extra parameter. 20:58:45 *nyef* knew one system where %-prefix meant "dangerous, for systems use only" and %%-prefix meant "virtual-machine constant". 20:58:55 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:58:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:00:16 austinh: Or you could have the special variable be a struct or array of functions for the backend in question. 21:01:02 nyef: I don't understand. Can you explain or point me to an example? 21:02:08 I was thinking that the user would set the *database* var to :couchdb, for instance. And there'd be a database-couchdb.lisp file in the package which implements all the %-methods for that database. 21:02:54 why not just have your toplevel SAVE call SAVE-USING-BACKEND and define methods on save-using-backend 21:02:58 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.54.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:03:32 drewc: I think that's what I'm saying, but I was calling SAVE-USING-BACKEND %save. 21:03:34 (defun %delete (arg0 arg1) (funcall (database-backend-delete *database*) arg0 arg1)) 21:03:45 (defmethod save-using-backend ((backend (eql :couchdb)) object) ...) 21:04:09 Or, hey, most times people pass around a database /connection/ object to their DB functions, dispatch on that! 21:04:11 austinh: yeah, well that works then, only i'd call it save-using-backend :) 21:04:31 nyef, drewc: thanks! 21:04:34 yeah, i'm all for passing parameters as well :) 21:04:38 -!- aidalgol [~user@132.181.15.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:04:50 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.70.175] has joined #lisp 21:09:47 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-69-227-148-197.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:16 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 21:15:11 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-61-108.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:17:38 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-40-148.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:19:16 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.79.96.101] has joined #lisp 21:21:31 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:24:14 why is asdf not installable via clbuild? 21:26:16 it should be delivered with implementation 21:26:19 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:31 only some implementations come with it 21:26:46 Quicklisp is the first case I know where ASDF is explicitly installed 21:26:54 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 21:27:03 lispworks does not come with it either 21:27:09 PuffTheMagic: I'd say that clbuild developers didn't consider it a big enough issue 21:28:20 especially since installing ASDF nowadays is a case of doing a git clone, then LOAD 21:28:57 right but, that should be available via clbuild 21:29:16 would minimize extra steps 21:29:53 its trivially easy for me to do.... but for old time lispers (which i am trying to get to use asdf) its just more one thing they need to do 21:30:07 just get them to use quicklisp? 21:30:21 no, thats not an options 21:30:39 ohh 21:30:40 nm 21:30:45 i thought quicklisp was something else 21:30:49 cause clbuild was an outgrowth of some people common tools, not a truly organized work towards building a library system 21:31:06 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 21:31:32 i will have to check that out 21:32:57 why would someone use (ql:quickload... over (asdf:load-system ? 21:34:29 PuffTheMagic: it will auto-install packages, but neither should be used in sourcecode itself 21:35:23 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:49 hipdude [~somebody@99.165.6.218] has joined #lisp 21:37:28 p_l|home, what is the proper usage of asdf then? 21:37:39 overloading an init file does not seem right either 21:37:41 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007039.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 21:37:42 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:37:58 PuffTheMagic: defining the system and then only loading the "toplevel" system for your project 21:38:14 SLIME already includes a helper for loading systems 21:38:19 francogrex [~user@109.130.174.230] has joined #lisp 21:38:27 forget about SLIME 21:38:29 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925256056.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:48 an emacs only solution does not help 21:38:49 anyone know a link for the ansi-tests of Paul Dietz (as a tarball)? 21:39:50 PuffTheMagic: well, in long term it doesn't matter - also, QL will hook into ASDF so that it will download missing dependencies if you call ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM on a system that has unsatisfied deps. 21:41:03 gigamonkey [~user@99.68.116.221] has joined #lisp 21:41:33 zomgbie_ [~jesus@212095007001.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 21:41:38 can i still use .config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf/... with QL? 21:42:06 it's just lisp. 21:42:06 yes 21:42:14 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007039.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:42:55 *p_l|home* uses clbuild for slime and the systems that aren't included in QL but which are available on github and similar 21:43:24 francogrex: I only know of the cvs repo, unless you want to grab a tarball of gcl, which contains ansi-tests. 21:43:30 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:41 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:44:38 p_l|home, you your self use clbuild but you are trying to get me to use ql? 21:44:46 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:15 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007001.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 21:45:26 jfc. add the git line to wnpp-projects and dismiss this whole thing as a bad dream. 21:45:31 lol 21:45:32 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:46:12 p_l|home, what does libs/projects does clbuild have access to that quicklisp does not? 21:46:15 PuffTheMagic: I'm using both 21:47:02 PuffTheMagic: not many - personally I only load SLIME and some projects that are definitely not popular but which are available through some VCS 21:47:48 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:50 does quicklisp integrate with asdf-binary-locations 21:47:55 or do i still need to set that up manually 21:48:01 PuffTheMagic: asdf-binary-location no longer exists 21:48:17 gigamonkey: around? 21:48:20 such functionality is part of ASDF2 21:48:26 hmmm 21:48:29 did no know that 21:49:15 ls ~/.config/common-lisp/asdf-output-translations.conf.d/ <--- here 21:50:13 the default config saves FASLs under ~/.cache/common-lisp/ 21:51:24 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:51:56 so how do i search available libs/packages 21:51:57 -!- sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has quit [Quit: sellout] 21:52:06 system-apropos seems to have downloaded what i was looking for 21:52:13 which is not what i was expecting 21:52:48 or maybe it didnt 21:52:52 not usaed to this output yet 21:52:58 p_l|home: i load slime via quicklisp... it's just called (ql:quickload '(swank quicklisp-slime-helper)) :)\ 21:54:15 drewc: sure, I simply kept my old config. Didn't feel like switching :D 21:54:25 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007001.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:54:39 i ran a hybrid clbuild/ql setup for a while. 21:54:54 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@212095007001.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:56:42 is it possible to get system-apropos to find stuff packages that are configured via source-registry.conf 21:56:52 as for stuff installed with clbuild... on my machine, that's pf-defservice (a branch of defservice with hunchentoot support), redshank&slime (old but working config), curly, defstar and SBCL 21:56:53 or does that only list what the server knows about 21:57:34 timack [~tim@hlfx51-2b-163.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 21:57:39 -!- jweiss is now known as jweiss-out 21:57:55 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 22:00:00 no idea, never needed that 22:00:13 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-18.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:01:53 p_l|home, so u dont use asdf for personal projects? 22:02:13 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:02:20 PuffTheMagic: source-registry.conf is an ASDF-ism, system-apropos is a quicklisp function 22:02:56 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:16 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:04:18 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:04:21 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:04:50 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.174.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:50 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 22:05:50 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:06:06 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:41 where is the sources that ql downloads stored? 22:08:17 in dists/quicklisp/ 22:08:47 in dists/quicklisp/archives 22:09:00 or rather in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/archives 22:09:13 found them just as you responded 22:09:14 thanks 22:09:18 quicklisp seems pretty cool 22:09:18 and the sources in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/sources 22:09:25 much easier than clbuild 22:09:27 jep 22:09:53 now the website says there is a way to make custom repos but its not documented 22:10:03 how would I do this 22:10:19 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:49 look in quicklisp.lisp and setup.lisp 22:11:05 look at where it specifies a url 22:11:11 or a method 22:11:16 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115776 22:11:19 also : #quicklisp 22:11:32 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:11:37 creating a gensym in a macro's context, then injecting it into the macro expansion seems to lose its identity 22:11:46 the original gensym and the one used at runtime from the macro'd source are not eq 22:11:54 any particular explanation for that 22:11:56 ? 22:12:25 I thought it was the reader that actually creates new #:foo instances, not anything that would run from eval'ing a macro 22:12:47 ahahahah 22:12:58 he htinnks two gensyms will be eq 22:13:06 it's a single gensym 22:13:12 Phoodus: is it? ;) 22:13:19 you think so 22:13:27 it should be 22:13:28 there is a counter associated with a gensym 22:13:43 so two gensyms are never the same 22:13:45 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:13:50 there's only 1 call to (gensym) 22:13:51 -!- gigamonkey [~user@99.68.116.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:14:08 homie: the counter is purely there for humans. 22:14:14 -!- yan_ [~asym@srtd.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:14:14 one is quoted 22:14:35 but in the logical test it gets evaled 22:14:45 and is quote expected to create a new symbol? it should act as a pass-through, afaik 22:15:17 yan_ [~asym@srtd.org] has joined #lisp 22:15:19 quote is quite 22:15:34 it retains it's arg unevaled as much as possible 22:15:39 Phoodus: if you're compiling and loading this, then identity might not be preserved. 22:15:41 until it has to get evaled 22:15:46 your case is eq 22:15:59 eq has to eval 22:16:11 um 22:16:14 say what 22:16:18 homie: shh, you're a) not making and sense and b) not helping 22:16:19 homie: you're even more confused than Phoodus. 22:16:27 lol 22:16:30 the test is (eq *defvar* <*defvar* dereferenced during macro build context>) 22:17:02 in the real case, I also printed out the two variables, and they had the same #gNumber 22:17:18 oh 22:17:23 Phoodus: they would. 22:17:42 Phoodus: symbol identity is independent from names. 22:17:51 right 22:18:08 but where is the independent indentity being created, and why is it reusing the same name if that's the case? 22:18:31 Phoodus: are you compiling to a fasl and loading (e.g. with C-c C-c or C-c C-k?) 22:18:42 yeah, C-c C-k 22:20:08 the defvar executes at compile-time, binding your global to a gensym. 22:20:33 and the let calls again in different scope 22:20:51 The fasl, however, can only store enough information to recreate a copy (same name, plist, etc). 22:21:04 homie: not even wrong. 22:21:09 iisjmii [~iisjmii@212-252.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 22:22:26 I just re-installed my pc. Now I keep getting the error message "The symbol "PPS" in not extern in the ASDF package." while loading a package. Does anybody know what to do about it? 22:22:47 pkhuong_: thanks, if it's along those lines I'll use something more concrete, like incrementing numbers 22:22:47 Sorry 22:23:07 I just found it quite an "interesting" problem to pass data from a macro to the runtime code 22:23:08 I need to go to sleep :$ Nothing wrong 22:23:17 when it's not readably printable 22:24:02 Phoodus: the problem isn't with passing data from compile to run-time, but with loading, which isn't guaranteed to completely preserve object identity (how could it?), or even be able to file-compile every literal. 22:24:39 yeah, I didn't have the separation of compile time -> fasl -> load -> run in my head 22:24:45 aidalgol [~user@132.181.15.43] has joined #lisp 22:25:02 I've shunted a lot of the behavior into the macro expansion code, so I need to be careful with that 22:25:45 Phoodus: I've found load-time-value useful for that sort of thing; both to defer some look ups until runtime, and, more importantly, to avoid performing side effects at macro-expansion time. 22:26:04 or what is guaranteed to preserve object identity ? from copile-> runtime ? 22:26:18 what and/or in which cases ? 22:26:36 constants ? 22:26:44 the twists in my problem is that I've got a DSL compiler, which generates lisp code that should be able to use the lisp closure context of where it occurs 22:27:17 but at the same time, the parsed data from the compiler should be available at runtime 22:27:30 p_l|home: Remember that $$foo thing? 22:27:40 p_l|home: I just ran into it in production code. I just thought I'd let you know. 22:27:41 :) 22:27:58 Phoodus: again, load-time-value is really useful. 22:28:04 FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- 22:28:59 in templates, too 22:29:08 $$field_name\_$abbr_selected 22:29:10 ohsomuchfun 22:29:12 pkhuong_: yeah, seems to be 22:29:33 untangling a mess of nested macrolets 22:31:14 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-104.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:31:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-86.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:33:18 how do i force quicklisp to recompile a system 22:33:38 ?? 22:34:32 i would say get rid of the source dir 22:34:40 u mean the cache? 22:34:49 yes 22:34:56 thats the only way? 22:34:57 PuffTheMagic: I don't know if QL has such an option, but you can get ASDF to force-compile. 22:35:00 and re quicckload it again ? 22:35:08 ,force-compile-system 22:35:27 PuffTheMagic: ASDF handles that; you can force it to recompile systems. 22:35:35 (asdf:oos 'asdf:force-compile-system :bla) ?? 22:35:47 is that right ? 22:35:48 PuffTheMagic: quicklisp uses ASDF for all it's system-related tasks, QL itself is only about finding and downloading asdf systems 22:35:49 I think it's 'asdf:compile-op :force t? 22:35:54 ah 22:36:46 (asdf:oos 'asdf:compile-op 'system :force t), then (ql:quickload 'system) 22:37:27 yes 22:37:28 there we go 22:37:30 why quickload again ? 22:37:49 why not just load-op with asdf ? 22:37:54 -!- manby-ace [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: manby-ace] 22:38:56 homie, i prob just just stick with that but I was trying to get used to ql... and i thought it might have a feature to do this 22:38:57 you could do load-op, sure. 22:39:07 i didnt know how much ql overlapped with asdf 22:39:15 QL is built on top of ASDF 22:39:25 and uses ASDF for all its system loading, among some other stuff. 22:39:36 yes i get that 22:42:31 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:35 ok 22:43:43 pkhuong_: hmm, load-time-value snips off all lexical context. That's a challenge 22:44:32 *Phoodus* ponders eval-when and macros 22:46:00 Phoodus: solved ? 22:46:06 no 22:46:18 but at least I know more of the problem now 22:46:27 ah 22:46:50 does macrolet not itself walk code ? 22:47:01 how does it store temporaries ? 22:47:04 the problem is _when_ it walks code 22:47:08 or does it ? 22:47:25 or, more appropriately, when its expansions are invoked 22:47:41 so it uses stack or heap ? 22:47:56 these questions seem awfully random 22:48:01 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:57 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:49:35 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:16 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:50:19 just as a more general question, what would be the best way to accomplish this: 22:50:28 macro analyzes input DSL code body 22:50:31 generates structure 22:50:40 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-68-116-221.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:43 creates lisp text from structure, which it returns as its expansion 22:50:53 but also passes the structure to the runtime expansion 22:51:19 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-199-248.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 22:51:22 where the structure is not readably printable 22:52:37 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:52:55 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:11 the current hack/workaround I'm trying is that the macroexpansion stores into a hashtable, the runtime pulls from the hashtable 22:54:20 but obviously given the above, I can't use a gensym as the hashtable key 22:55:34 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:16 hmmm 22:57:13 move the gensym out of the hashtable to the runtime ? 22:57:16 I'm switching over to using an equalp hashtable and the compiled item's name as the key. I don't think this has to bother garbage collecting, because only literal source will ever populate it 22:57:36 but even if this works, it seems like a real lame hackish way to accomplish this 22:58:11 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:58:39 -!- iisjmii [~iisjmii@212-252.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:01:07 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: Zzzz] 23:01:28 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-199-248.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:01:55 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.79.96.101] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:03:29 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:11 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-10-221.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 23:04:21 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75516e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:18 In general, if I use a hashtable to flyweight my structure instances, will compile-time flyweight identities survive into runtime? 23:06:02 gump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 23:06:10 i am having a little issue with a project i am converting to using asdf 23:06:20 one of the files loads some images 23:06:30 which are relative to the orig source dir 23:06:40 but they dont get copied to the asdf cache dir 23:06:57 so the images cant be found when compiled 23:07:46 how would i resolve a problem like this 23:08:45 PuffTheMagic: asdf:system-definition-pathname 23:09:22 (and/or a configuration variable/file) 23:10:16 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 23:10:50 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:11:18 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:11:20 thanks 23:12:34 Phoodus: you're using a whole bunch of terminology i know, but using it in ways i don't follow. Maybe if you pasted a simple example of what you're trying to do, you'd get some suggestions on how to do it. 23:12:51 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.81] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:13:36 it's a fairly hefty compiler 23:13:39 DSL compiler 23:13:59 now, the DSL compiles into a structure which I pass to an asynchronous worker 23:14:05 that structure has lambdas in it 23:14:25 You know, your other option is to just turn off the output filename translations. 23:14:41 more specifically, the DSL can have user-provided lisp progns injected into it at certain points 23:15:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.33.27.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:15:40 by passing the progn bodies off to be eval'd elsewhere, that loses all lexical scope of the progns being able to make use of the lisp closure values surrounding the DSL block 23:16:04 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-68-116-221.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:34 so, the macro expansion of the DSL should include lambda bodies right in the expansion, to retain lexical context 23:16:51 but I need to perform the compilation in order to know what the lambda bodies should look like 23:17:37 so I'm doing a bunch of processing at compile-time (so that I can generate the lambda bodies in time), needing the output structure of that processing available to the generated code as well 23:17:39 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:17:57 all this stuff used to happen at runtime, with the macroexpansion just setting up the code to do the work 23:18:12 but if I do that, then the macros don't know enough to actually generate the lambda bodies inline 23:18:28 (hopefully I'm making some sense) 23:21:42 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:01 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:22 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 23:23:36 gigamonkey [~user@24-176-255-130.static.reno.nv.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:00 Phoodus: if you need information available at run time that you calculated at compile-time, you have to generate code that outputs that information. 23:33:01 Phoodus: I don't really understand what you're trying to do exactly, but I'd hazard a guess that you might be overusing macros... 23:34:57 -!- drewc` is now known as drewc 23:35:05 qbomb [~qbomb@65.183.106.51] has joined #lisp 23:35:48 i was looking for some game or application source that uses cl-opengl heavily to read for learning purposes, instead i found a tutorial series called "NeHe tutorials". they seem pretty good but saw some comments telling the examples are misguiding, would you recommend that tutorial? and it would be great if someone directs to any source code of the kind i look for 23:37:36 get the official opengl programming guide 23:37:38 kenanb: you might want to ask in #lispgames 23:38:24 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:39:02 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-13-5.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:39:10 OliverUv: copied and pasted, thanks :) 23:39:17 np 23:39:31 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-61-108.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:41:44 -!- yan_ [~asym@srtd.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:57 Hexstream: I have to load enough info into the macro evaluation context in order to generate the proper lexically inline lambda bodies 23:42:55 Could you lisppaste some of what you have so far?... 23:42:57 drewc: loading up a hashtable _seems_ to work now 23:43:14 don't know if I'll run into other deserialization-related identity issues doing that 23:43:26 where the macroexpansion fills in the hashtables, the runtime reads from it 23:43:59 Hexstream: not easily 23:44:46 Phoodus: Then I can help you not easily ;) 23:44:52 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:45:04 yeah, it's almost as difficult to describe as it is to read the code ;-P 23:48:44 What's hard about lisppasting?... 23:48:54 It doesn't have to be complete or anything. 23:52:10 -!- turbo24prg [~turbo24pr@turbolent.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:56:41 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:58:08 -!- gump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:59:26 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]