00:00:04 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:04 stassats: will FORMAT allow you to use a single #\: if you don't? 00:01:28 yes, as far as i can tell 00:01:45 clhs 22.3.5.4 00:01:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm 00:02:11 Hexstream: now that I think about it, do you think cohercing class slots is against The Lisp Way? 00:02:30 coHercing? 00:02:56 I sense a disturbance in the topic... 00:03:01 -!- baley [~baley@87.229.24.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:03:09 Blkt: I don't see how it would be... I'd say don't do it if you don't have to. 00:03:32 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:03:40 stassats: looks like you're right. However, I think it's still the right thing to export it to indicate it's intended for public consumption. 00:04:27 though it doesn't make much sense outside format 00:05:14 stassats: true. Unless someone wanted to use it to build some other formatting function. 00:07:09 are these all time-zones which should be defined? 00:07:49 somehipbody [~somebody@99.165.6.219] has joined #lisp 00:08:05 i find my timezone only in military section 00:10:07 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.243] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:10:14 stassats: About comments at the top of files, well, I find them a bit annoying too but what better place to put the comments relevant to the particular file?... You can always use C-M-e and C-M-a to skip it. 00:10:35 something like texinfo? 00:11:33 I don't know, that's the kind of thing that produces PDF's?... I think it can export to HTML too, but do you have full control of the generated HTML for a custom theme and stuff? 00:11:47 I'm not sure I want to get in the business of learning TeX right now... 00:11:53 gigamonkey: i believe centur~:@p in human-time won't be pluralized properly 00:12:01 it's not TeX 00:12:09 Ohhh, damn, texinfo, yeah. 00:12:41 Well, I'm not sure I want to get in the business of learning texinfo right now ;P or is that easier than I think?... 00:13:09 i don't know, i didn't learn it, only wrote documentation in it 00:13:34 ?.......... You wrote documentation in it without learning it? How does that work? 00:13:45 stassats: what's wrong with the pluralization? 0 centuries, 1 century, 2 centuries 00:13:49 have one ever heard of a problem using C-M-x using Mac I use the option and the control keys but that only prints C-x- 00:14:01 Hexstream: cargo culting 00:14:37 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-174-32.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 00:14:41 gigamonkey: oh, i misread clhs 00:15:19 Hehe. It's not really a strategy in my arsenal but I guess I'll have to pick that up at some point. 00:15:39 *Odin-* grants stassats a C-47 Skytrain. 00:16:10 mana? 00:16:43 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.201.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:18:08 stassats: One thing I'm wondering with texinfo is if I'm going to alienate everyone who isn't an absolute fan of info documentation. An HTML site would probably be more accessible. I'm torn, it seems any option I choose will take a significant investment in the end. Seems like I'll be a documentation bitch for at least the next 365 days. 00:18:24 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.43.51] has joined #lisp 00:18:58 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 Heh. May a package PLURAL with format functions for irregular plurals. (format t "~r ~/plural:millennium/" 10) 00:20:48 *Xach* gets to packing for ILC 00:20:59 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:22:21 gigamonkey: i would write human-time that way: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115647 00:22:49 Oh, so texinfo can generate HTML. Seems like I've found my documentation system. Thanks! 00:23:20 texinfo can generate a truckload of formats 00:24:16 Xach: Have fun while you're there! 00:27:47 thanks 00:28:28 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-8-255.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:12 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:34:41 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-240.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:36:42 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 00:38:01 stassats: Would it make sense to remove almost all documentation in the code and just put EVERYTHING in texinfo? That would at least have the advantages of not polluting my code with documentation I personally don't need and having much less duplication of documentation. On the other hand, having to cross-reference the code with the texinfo all the time might be a bit annoying for other people... 00:39:39 I like the idea of having short documentation in docstrings, some necessary comments in commentaries, and details in a separate documentation 00:39:55 but, i forgot that i don't write documentation, so don't listen to me 00:40:31 yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:51 i don't see any one function taking the bulk of time here: http://fpaste.org/IAoh/ 00:40:52 stassats: You've never written and released a library you wanted to make super easy to understand and use?... 00:40:57 am i blind? 00:41:22 Hexstream: well... i don't make releases either! 00:42:01 ...... That sounds exactly like me just a few weeks ago... 00:42:48 wait a couple weeks then, maybe it'll go away 00:43:12 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:43:27 yates: suspiciously much time seems to be spend in WEBLOCKS:ASDF-SYSTEM-DIRECTORY function 00:44:37 stassats: i'm not seeing how you get to that conclusion from these numbers 00:45:23 yates: http://groups.google.com/group/weblocks/browse_thread/thread/b4851e364cb8fa20/e182769e577e8e2c?#e182769e577e8e2c 00:45:49 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 00:45:52 yates: experience! 00:45:58 ha! 00:46:22 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:48:46 do you use a recent version of weblocks? 00:49:01 how do i tell? 00:49:10 i don't know 00:49:20 aidalgol [~user@132.181.254.208] has joined #lisp 00:49:36 (weblocks:server-version) gives 1.1.1 00:49:54 i used quicklisp to install 00:50:00 should be recent then 00:50:31 it seems weblocks/asdf is being really stupid from what they're saing in your link 00:50:32 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:50:39 rescanning directories EVERY request... 00:51:57 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-226-26.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please!] 00:52:15 i'm so ignorant, i don't know how to even begin to make my own hacked copy of weblocks 00:52:21 would i make my own "system"? 00:52:53 no 00:53:08 you just edit the source code of weblocks 00:53:25 doesn't quicklisp pull that from a vc repo? 00:54:01 where is it kept? how does cl/ql/slime know to recompile it? 00:54:34 they know because quicklisp tells it them 00:55:02 yates: try (asdf:system-source-directory 'weblocks) 00:55:25 oh yeah, baby! 00:57:34 so quicklisp has a sort of makefile functionality that checks dependencies and rebuilds when necessary? 00:58:22 yates: quicklisp uses asdf to do that. 00:58:24 that's what ASDF is doing 00:58:45 felideon [~felideon@adsl-32-49-224.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:57 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-174-32.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:31 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:59:31 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 00:59:31 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:00:53 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-26-199.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:02:11 what is a "safe variable"? 01:02:16 it's not in the clhs 01:03:50 when i try to edit the weblocks.asd file i get "the local variables list in weblocks.asd contains values that may not be safe (*)." 01:04:13 yates: that's an emacs thing. the file is trying to set variables in your editor and emacs is asking you for permission. 01:04:47 http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Safe-File-Variables.html 01:07:19 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316055951]] 01:07:26 Xach: how can simply visiting a file set variables in emacs? 01:07:37 yates: that's the magic of emacs! 01:07:38 wouldn't you have to evaluate it or something? 01:07:46 "magic"? 01:07:55 automagic! 01:07:58 rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:08:00 yates: it's some special stuff at the start of the file that is a suggestion to emacs. 01:08:01 blech 01:09:07 i just set `enable-local-variables' to :safe and emacs no longer bothers me with silly questions 01:09:10 and it's safe! 01:09:23 ;;;; -*- Mode: Lisp; Syntax: ANSI-Common-Lisp; Base: 10 -*- 01:09:38 -!- _8david [~user@port-92-195-157-111.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:09:51 half of these are ancient 01:09:54 _8david [~user@port-92-195-157-111.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:10:04 (setq 'enable-local-variables :safe)? 01:10:05 you never know if cltl3 will switch back to octal. 01:10:08 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:10:13 ha 01:10:19 yates: the q in setq means you don't need a quote on the variable name. 01:10:19 yates: without ' 01:10:20 octophobe 01:10:35 i never knew that! 01:11:00 yates: ancient lisps used octal by default 01:11:16 i never cared for octal 01:11:25 hex is cool though 01:11:37 *Xach* has never tried to use chmod with hex 01:12:06 good point - some things are cultural... 01:12:10 *stassats* isn't clever to remember octal, i always use ±rwx 01:12:43 real men use RSX-11M 01:12:44 ikki [~ikki@189.247.132.20] has joined #lisp 01:12:51 or VMS... 01:13:08 but i digress... 01:13:10 no real man uses VMS 01:13:31 i did love that OS - too bad the 80s are gone! 01:13:48 and the nokeypad editing mode of EDIT/EDT 01:14:35 we had an emacs look-alike for VMS 01:14:46 and for TOPS-10 01:15:18 LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:39 TOPS-10? don't knwo that one 01:15:48 Too bad about FreeVMS, huh? 01:15:51 DEC-10 OS 01:16:24 was DEC-10 prior to RSX? 01:16:38 nyef: what happened? 01:17:12 I've yet to hear of the project producing anything useful. 01:17:23 And it's been around for years. 01:17:50 we used a bunch of PDP 11/70's when I was at GTE Government Systems (79-88) 01:18:24 for system deployment, but at the plant we used VAX clusters and VMS for s/w development 01:19:00 nyef: did you want to port SBCL to it? 01:19:12 It would have been amusing. 01:19:32 though, port to a real VMS would be more interesting 01:20:41 are vaxen still used? 01:21:02 stassats: ha! dec went bellyup what, late 80s? 01:21:08 It's more likely that vax emulators are still used. 01:21:10 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:21:27 yates: Not so much belly-up as bought-out by Compaq... which was since bought-out by HP. 01:21:27 yes, they missed workstations 01:21:28 i mean old installations 01:21:42 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx47-203.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:22:13 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:22:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.132.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:23:24 does anyone remember the C-ITOH dumb terminals, with their heavenly green on black displays? 01:23:47 i could code for days at a time on one of those... 01:24:06 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-15-161.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:24 oh boy does this bring back memories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pdp-11-70-panel.jpg 01:26:45 nah 01:26:52 ikki [~ikki@189.247.132.20] has joined #lisp 01:27:11 you have to be at least 40 to appreciate that... 01:28:38 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-183-203.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:14 Okay, time for me to try to get some sleep. 01:30:18 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-178-106.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:30:46 Kruppe` [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:19 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:32:22 darn it 01:33:16 -!- Kruppe` is now known as Kruppe 01:33:56 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.39] has joined #lisp 01:36:23 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu275.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:37:32 vIkSiT [~viksit@unaffiliated/viksit] has joined #lisp 01:39:48 necroforest [~jarred@pool-108-18-226-169.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.132.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:41:14 rabite_ [~project@dslb-084-063-030-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:33 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 01:43:27 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:52 -!- aidalgol [~user@132.181.254.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:44:48 ikki [~ikki@189.247.132.20] has joined #lisp 01:45:05 -!- rabite [~project@dslb-084-063-018-132.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:46:21 one think I've wondered. 01:46:36 nil should be considered both an atom and not an atom. 01:46:43 right? 01:46:53 zc00gii: no. 01:46:54 () = nil 01:47:19 zc00gii: an atom is any non-cons. nil is not a cons. 01:47:30 Xach: hmm 01:47:37 I guess you can't make a () with a cons. 01:48:01 or can you? 01:48:06 No. 01:48:49 still makes you think. 01:48:57 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:49:21 thinking isn't necessarily a bad thing 01:53:22 aidalgol [~user@132.181.254.208] has joined #lisp 01:54:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.132.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:55:48 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:56:40 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:40 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:56:40 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 01:58:51 ikki [~ikki@189.247.132.20] has joined #lisp 01:59:18 -!- pdenno [~user@207-172-151-197.c3-0.gth-ubr1.lnh-gth.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:00:08 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:31 Kruppe` [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:02:38 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:05:45 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:06:01 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:07:03 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:09:13 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:09:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.132.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:09:51 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:46 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:45 wakeupsticky [ae1d67af@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.29.103.175] has joined #lisp 02:15:54 hi all. a few questions about slime. 02:16:20 i'm all ears 02:16:34 i am currently working with a .lisp file in the top window and a repl in the bottom window. When i run m-x compile i then have to re-run m-x slime. 02:16:38 that can't be right. 02:17:00 why do you run m-x compile? 02:17:26 well, my next question is, Is there a way to just type things into the repl but have them saved to my source file for later? 02:17:42 no 02:17:49 that way i'm not stopping to compile after every function definition. 02:18:16 what's the right way to go about writing/testing code that i'll want to save? 02:18:51 you write it into a file, compile with C-c C-c, put into REPL with C-c C-y 02:18:52 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-15-161.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:19:03 wakeupsticky: M-x compile isn't supposed to work with slime 02:19:16 if you want to load the whole file, use C-c C-k 02:19:16 oh, i should be doing C-c C-c instead of m-x compile 02:19:20 stassats: were you joking about the WEBLOCKS:ASDF-SYSTEM-DIRECTORY profile time ? 02:19:31 yates: no 02:19:55 how can you make that conclusion based on the information in the sprof browser? 02:21:05 well, it says it spends 95% in that function, and i doubt 95% of time should be spent in something related to ASDF during normal operation 02:21:59 so i made a heuristic guess 02:23:21 i think i see 02:23:34 based on what these functions are doing 02:23:47 and some a-priori knowledge on how complex they are 02:23:55 (or simple) 02:24:03 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:24:09 usually most of the time is spend in some top-level functions which set-up things, and call some other functions, they doin 02:24:30 they are doing not much time by themselves 02:24:48 Does C-c C-c compile the entire file or just the function that the cursor is in? 02:24:50 and they are uninteresting during profiling 02:25:03 is the list sorted hierarchically? 02:25:04 wakeupsticky: just the function, as opposed to C-c C-k 02:25:13 yates: no 02:25:40 yates: note, you can pres RET on a specific function to see what functions it calls and by which function it's called 02:25:45 wakeupsticky: just the top level form that the cursor is in. 02:25:45 I thought that C-c C-k loaded the entire file. Compiling and loading are distinct, right? 02:26:01 wakeupsticky: C-c C-k does both 02:26:05 Oh. 02:26:09 compiles and then loads 02:26:13 C-c C-l just loads 02:26:16 ok, thx stassats. 02:26:22 So for small files C-c C-k is the simplest way to go about things. 02:26:28 *adu* <3 emacs 02:26:28 out of time tonight - back at it tomorrow night. - have a nice evening. 02:26:31 yates: and you can view the source code by pressing v 02:26:36 oh 02:26:38 cool! 02:27:02 nice 02:27:10 good night! 02:27:10 *stassats* is having a nice morning 02:33:44 stassats: sunny outside? 02:34:23 no, it's still dark, autumn 02:34:31 ah :) 02:35:12 great time for lisp hacking 02:37:35 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-8-255.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:40:27 -!- wakeupsticky [ae1d67af@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.29.103.175] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:41:35 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:43:29 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f723b4d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:41 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7240c5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:46:04 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 02:46:44 is there a format control char that can replace pprint? 02:47:07 clhs ~< 02:47:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ceb.htm 02:47:38 or what do you mean? 02:49:41 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:51:38 I am looking for a way to use FORMAT to output something similar to pprint as in http://imagebin.org/118990. 02:53:33 (let ((*print-pretty* t)) (format t "~s" (swank:fuzzy-completions "mvb" "CL"))) 02:54:53 stassats: thanks. 02:55:41 or: (format t "~:w" (swank:fuzzy-completions "mvb" "CL")) 02:56:27 i should remember that too 02:57:07 stassats: the second one is nicer. 02:57:10 thx. 02:58:21 hrrr, asdf doesn't recompile my changed file, bummer 02:59:09 *stassats* becomes more angry at that fact 03:00:36 and recompiles not changed files! 03:00:40 how you gonna call it? 03:01:03 ghost recompiler? 03:02:09 asdf hate is now in vogue, so i'm going to use it a little 03:03:06 sorry, now I have the ghost busters tune stuck in my head 03:03:36 it's contagious 03:04:06 sykopomp: I just tried the quick examples of sheeple on github, it seems really cool, but there was two extra parens on one example - this is corrected: (defreply synergize ((a =string=) (b =string=)) (concatenate 'string a b)) 03:04:51 -!- aidalgol [~user@132.181.254.208] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:05:01 peterhil: where is that? 03:05:53 It's the 2nd of the sixth Quick Example on http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple 03:06:46 Also the next one (synergize *my-object* *child*) didn't give an error about circular precedence graph on SBCL with slime on Mac OS X. 03:07:09 http://www.lambdassociates.org/Shen/appeal.htm may be of interest to some people. 03:07:16 Hm. May be out of date, I guess? 03:08:53 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:03 Could be, instead the latter gave error about there probably being a bug in sheeple. 03:09:20 hee :) 03:10:10 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:35 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:10:41 Yep. :-D 03:11:07 peterhil: I wonder if this already got fixed in the development branch. 03:12:11 Ok, I'll grab it. How stable/mature is the sheeple code otherwise? 03:12:55 Well, I wouldn't use it in a production setting. 03:13:20 I've written some smallish apps (~2kloc) with it. 03:13:36 Thought so. Really cool still! Hope it will see use in production some day. :-) 03:13:36 but adlai and I haven't really touched it very much in months. 03:14:15 Perhaps some form of it could become something in the future. I've been exploring other avenues since playing with Sheeple. 03:14:58 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:16:38 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:17:44 2 kloc doesn't sound too smal 03:18:37 heh. I guess I think of "big" as 100kloc+, so 'medium-sized' is probably on the order of 10-50kloc. 03:18:53 and I ended up rewriting the whole thing using CLOS :) 03:19:04 in lisp locs tend to be smaller 03:19:14 good point. 03:19:27 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:19:40 and those are sloc, not wc -l. 03:19:48 *stassats* counts line in his current project lisp: 3819 (93.81%) 03:20:00 and i haven't done anything yet! 03:20:06 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-15-125.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:07 stassats: what are you working on? 03:21:02 data collection and representation 03:21:16 grep? :) 03:21:44 that's where i started 03:22:17 Good morning everyone! 03:22:29 morning, beach! 03:22:30 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@76.175.244.227] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:22:41 beach: I've been reading John Shutt's dissertation on fexprs. 03:22:43 collection part is okayish, i'm working currently on representation, using Qt as UI 03:22:57 stassats: commonqt, neh? 03:23:05 right 03:23:22 Is this something you're doing commercially, or just for fun? 03:23:28 sykopomp: Oh, interesting! Is it good? 03:23:57 sykopomp: just for me, i need to keep track of things 03:24:14 beach: it's really interesting! It has a bit of history, and frames the arguments about fexprs in an interesting light. 03:24:46 I'm only about 1/4 of the way through, though. It's a 400-page thing. 03:25:17 not only for fun, e.g., i'm using it to keep track of my cycling training 03:25:32 they're really exciting, though. I've always wondered why we didn't have a "have your cake and eat it too" macro system that gave you the hygiene of Scheme macros with the full power of your Lisp, manipulating conses, for generating code. 03:25:34 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:42 but that's pretty much what fexprs are, and -more- 03:26:13 I shall have to read it myself some day. 03:27:05 the downside is still their cost, though -- you do need to make sure you have some way of resolving the static ones early, or they're likely going to be unusable in a real environment. The issue of doing separate compilation with FEXPRs present is also a problem that Shutt acknowledges in the dissertation but kinda shrugs off for now. 03:28:44 Separate compilation is something that could be done away with anyway I suppose. 03:29:22 maybe? 03:30:20 The major concerns with fexprs all seem to be along the same lines as you would have with other heavily-reflective systems, and Shutt's operatives are certainly designed with static analysis in mind, fwiw. 03:31:53 I think that separate compilation is an increasingly irrelevant problem, particularly as we move toward more distributed systems. 03:31:55 I haven't gotten to the details yet, but he seemed to have said that Kernel's first-class environments can also be compiled down to stack frames, as is usual (judging by LiSP) 03:32:13 Zhivago: that's good, then. Why do you think that, though? 03:32:37 Well, the main reason for separate compilation is where you are linking together large monoliths. 03:32:59 err, file-write-date doesn't show the right date in sbcl 03:33:13 Once you start to use distributed systems large monoliths don't really make that much sense since they carry a lot of overhead. 03:33:15 Zhivago: isn't that also desirable for very large systems, even when they're composed of many small modules? 03:33:25 Only if you want to drag around a lot of crap. 03:33:47 Once you start distributing, you'll notice that many modules have different scaling behaviours. 03:34:06 Maybe it makes sense for task A to be distributed across 50 machines, but only 5 for task B. 03:34:25 A monolithic approach would end up distributing AB to 55 machines. 03:35:01 As for the rest of it, you can take the same approach as syscalls do. 03:35:09 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:37 Use a naive ABI to link components together for moderately fast communication. 03:36:27 Hmm. I think I'm going to give money to Qi. 03:36:46 Shen*? :) 03:37:07 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:37:13 -!- vIkSiT [~viksit@unaffiliated/viksit] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:37:39 Yeah ,etc. 03:38:56 It's the only real advance in lisp technology that I've seen for years that looks like it's actually got a chance of going somewhere. 03:39:21 Why so? 03:39:25 Clojure may be popular, but it's all old hat. 03:39:37 Well, mainly due to a lack of competition, I think. 03:39:40 well, I agree there. 03:40:10 But Shen is actually designed, is getting support from the direction of google, is setting up a kernel language, etc. 03:40:24 All things that need to be done, being doing right, as far as I see. 03:40:54 Where's the rest of the info on what this new Shen thing is? 03:41:00 Hmm, let's see. 03:41:05 or is it just Qi? 03:41:22 (I'm browsing through lambdaassociates.org) 03:41:34 http://www.rhinocerus.net/forum/lang-lisp/611652-shen-qi-iii-project-progress-date.html looks apropos. 03:42:48 John Shutt's stuff is also pretty cool, but it doesn't seem to have much in the way of realization. 03:42:59 No? 03:43:35 Well, it's not a criticism -- it's a thesis. 03:43:57 But it doesn't seem to have anyone actually using it for anything that I've seen. 03:44:18 I guess there's no serious implementations, no. 03:44:25 So while it may show a way, it isn't one itself. 03:45:14 You mean Kernel, specifically, or fexprs? 03:45:26 Because fexprs seem to be the kernel of this whole Kernel thing. 03:45:37 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:46:05 Same deal. 03:46:42 fexprs address the basic criticism of lisp that Kay made. 03:46:52 Kernel shows how they can be managed usefully. 03:46:52 which was? 03:47:06 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 03:47:30 Special forms. 03:47:36 ah 03:47:57 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-15-125.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:48:45 c.l.l. is so useless. Mark Tarver's announcement thread devolved immediately into an argument about disk usage and line count. 03:49:09 That is a kind way to put it. 03:49:26 I was about to apologize because 'useless' might be a little strong. I'll be rougher next time. 03:50:05 "people still use c.l.l.?" 03:50:17 Zhivago: Speaking of this whole 'realization' thing. Where's the 'realized' code? ;) 03:50:34 "We have snake oil here. It's really great. Give us money and we'll make sure the snake oil actually works, later." 03:50:39 sykopomp: Well, you can download Qi. 03:50:47 Qi is not Shen. 03:50:49 sykopomp: Shen is basically Qi with the CL cut off. 03:51:01 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:51:49 sykopomp: Having Qi and shapiro's involvement is enough for me to trust in the rest of it. 03:52:27 Oh. He mentions the DVM in that thread. Isn't that the dynamic partial evaluating VM? 03:52:52 wasn't it sort of a transition, Qi (running on CL) -> Shen/Qi2 (with Qi running on top of Shen) -> k-lambda/Shen/Qi2 ? 03:53:06 sykopomp: DVM is the Dalvik Virtual Machine 03:53:43 p_l: I think that's fairly accurate. Shen cuts off CL. k-lambda gets stuck on as a target. 03:53:49 *stassats* is ready to blame C preprocessor for sbcl failure 03:53:53 p_l|uni: It's also the name of Gregory Sullivan's VM for doing partial eval. 03:54:10 syko: In this case, it will be regarding the dalvik target for k-lambda. 03:54:19 sykopomp: well, Dalvik got the numbers on it, I guess :P 03:54:22 ah, okay. 03:54:51 oh indeed. Sorry about taht. 03:54:55 that* 03:56:19 Zhivago: Can I ask you whether you have any thoughts on Qi's type system? Perhaps when compared with something like Martin-Löf dependent types (and I apologize in advance because I don't quite understand either one yet) 03:57:13 sykopomp: It's just first order logic using sequent calculus, as I understand it. 03:57:35 sykopomp: Which means that it gives you enough rope to hang yourself by making an inconsistent type system. 03:58:01 sykopomp: It also means that you can construct whatever type systems you want, if you're careful. 03:58:23 nonterminating type inference is fun :) 03:58:39 But I need to order a copy of their book and work through it sometime. 03:59:09 Is that the same case for dependent types? 03:59:30 Depends on how they're limited, I guess. 04:05:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:06:28 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 04:15:56 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pwjklfpecrrhqujk] has joined #lisp 04:20:53 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 04:21:54 manic12 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xinming [~hyy@115.221.9.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:51:46 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:55:51 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 05:57:02 -!- Kruppe` [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:59:06 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:01:30 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:01:45 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 06:02:20 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:06:37 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:12:22 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:13:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.229.121] has joined #lisp 06:13:48 I would like some advice with respect to error handling in a CL implementation. Here is the issue (best illustrated by an example). For instance, let's say that the user calls SUBSTITUTE on a dotted list, and this is detected because SUBSTITUTE uses ENDP, so the error is detected in ENDP. Would it be reasonable for SUBSTITUTE to catch that error and report it differently? 06:14:26 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 06:14:46 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 06:14:46 it'd certainly be more usable. 06:15:05 The alternative is to let ENDP signal it, but then the error message will be cryptic. One could fix this problem by providing tools to analyse the stack and look at the topmost frame that belongs to user code. 06:15:39 such tools are often relatively complex to use, and not available at every possible avenue through which such an error might appear. 06:15:47 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:15:50 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:16:18 I am afraid that the first solution might be expensive in some situations, for instance, if + has to set up a condition handler in order to capture an error in (say) two-arg-+-fixnum. 06:16:43 perhaps make it conditional on safety or debug optimization level? 06:16:56 That's an idea. 06:17:14 And perhaps go for the first solution whenever it can be shown to be reasonably inexpensive. 06:17:28 Why would the endp error be cryptic? 06:17:46 I would most prefer to use an implementation that defaulted to highly informative and clear errors, with an easily accessible option to enable their sacrifice for performance purposes. 06:17:49 sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:17:58 you have a backtrace, don't you? 06:18:03 Zhivago: because the application programmer doesn't necessarily know that the sequence function uses ENDP. 06:18:27 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:19:03 Yeah, but the error should still be "not a proper list". 06:19:10 Sure. 06:19:19 Why do you care that endp raised it? 06:20:00 Either they'll have wrapped sequence, or they won't particularly care that it comes from sequence. 06:20:09 Zhivago: It would be nice if the programmer got it in terms of a call to SUBSTITUTE and the dotted list that was passed, as oppoosed to a call to ENDP with only the last atom. 06:20:20 Fair enough. 06:20:39 sharps`` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:21:03 andreas [~andreas@p579F8E34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:09 stassats: The situation becomes more complicated because of the presence of macros and compiler macros. There might not be an intermediate stack frame that mentions the code that the user actually called. 06:21:23 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:23:19 Ralith: What about the following situation: The user calls a sequence function which calls a user predicate which signals an error. Now, you would not want the sequence function to report that error, because the user would recognize his/her own code. How can I avoid this? 06:23:48 sharps``` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:24:13 beach: what precisely are you trying to avoid? User errors called from internal code being ambiguous? 06:24:14 -!- sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:24:18 -!- tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:24:23 signaled* 06:24:38 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 06:24:58 btbngr [~btbgnr@212.183.140.51] has joined #lisp 06:25:05 xan_ [~xan@gate.kikuei.com] has joined #lisp 06:25:37 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:25:54 Ralith: I am not _exactly  sure what I want, but I _think  I would like for messages to be phrased in terms of the first system function called by the last user code executed. 06:26:30 beach: in this case, isn't the last user code exected the function that was passed in? 06:26:41 That's correct. 06:27:14 -!- sharps`` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:27:19 so the result is when you pass a user function to a system function, the error is then raised from some *other* system function called by the function you passed in? 06:27:35 Yes, that sounds right. 06:27:41 okay, that makes sense 06:27:58 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:28:28 beach: so what you're trying to avoid is, say, an error rising through user code that calls endp, up through another system function, and finally to the top level getting mistakenly wrapped? 06:28:41 Yes. 06:29:17 The question is then: is there a way to organize handlers and condition reporters to make this always work? 06:29:45 can't you simply exclude the bit that calls the passed-in code from the handlers? 06:30:07 hm. 06:30:16 beach: what if a system function is explicitly passed in by the user? 06:30:30 Good question. I don't know. 06:30:31 behaving according to your stated algorithm would lead to a potentially confusing inconsistency. 06:31:14 perhaps it is best to always let errors from passed-in functions, if any is passed at all, rise through unimpeded? 06:31:41 maybe even simply do not intercept errors for things which *may* be overridden by passed-in functions. 06:31:42 How would one do that? 06:32:03 well, again, can't you simply terminate the handler on the previous expression and reinstate it before the next? 06:32:37 it means n handlers, but you wouldn't be doing any of this on a speed-optimized compile anyway, I think. 06:32:48 OK, I see. 06:34:26 How about this: Implementation of system code never uses other system code directly, but instead special versions that signal conditions that are subclasses of the conditions dictated by the CLHS, and system code only captures those conditions? 06:34:41 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:34:58 that doesn't solve the user passing in system code. 06:35:05 No? 06:35:06 does handle the rest, though 06:35:12 ...hm 06:35:15 it would, actually 06:35:19 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.89] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:35:20 good call. 06:35:29 that sounds like a fix. 06:35:45 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.89] has joined #lisp 06:35:48 OK, I'll give it some more thought. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me. 06:36:03 np 06:36:09 interesting issue 06:36:20 Yeah. 06:36:21 *beach* steps back into the sauna; ideal for thinking things through... 06:37:30 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:42:01 Draggor1 [~Draggor@adsl-99-141-186-38.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:23 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:44:02 -!- andreas [~andreas@p579F8E34.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:44:51 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-148-28-145.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:45:06 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:48:05 @beach wouldn't you have a handler higher up that catches generic errors and logs them? I mention this after "tasting" my neighbor's home made beers ;) 06:49:16 After catching a few interesting ones in testing, wouldn't you then do some coding after testing to deal with common issues or obvious errors? 06:50:30 Others you catch and fix after reviewing the logs in production. 06:53:35 -!- somehipbody [~somebody@99.165.6.219] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:54:00 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:54:10 good morning 06:55:33 okflo [~okflo@91-115-86-201.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 06:56:14 hello mvilleneuve 06:56:27 @beach Ah your original issue was the need to know what call created the condition and yeah I log a trace usually 06:56:43 good morning 06:57:22 ejohnson: I think such a high-level handler would have to be installed by the user. 06:57:49 yeah, but as things become complex it becomes handy to do :) 07:00:31 -!- okflo [~okflo@91-115-86-201.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:00:41 I wonder why CL's strategy of putting symbols in packages isn't more widely adopted for namespacing identifiers. 07:01:28 it isn't? 07:01:59 I guess I might have been lucky and encountered mostly languages that somehow mimicked that... 07:03:09 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 07:03:13 andreas [~andreas@ip-109-45-212-224.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 07:03:25 somehipbody [~somebody@99.165.6.218] has joined #lisp 07:03:37 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B4AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:28 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:06:16 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-8-84.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:06:51 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-32-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 07:07:29 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B3277AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:10:12 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-24.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 07:10:58 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.39] has joined #lisp 07:11:34 -!- H4ns``` is now known as H4ns 07:17:14 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:18:16 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:19:14 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-108-18-226-169.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:19:42 -!- andreas [~andreas@ip-109-45-212-224.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:20:08 -!- somehipbody [~somebody@99.165.6.218] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:22:45 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:25:08 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:26:04 -!- dys` is now known as dys 07:30:08 republican_devil [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:16 anyone here build a videogame in common lisp? 07:31:31 andreas [~andreas@ip-109-45-49-169.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 07:32:37 republican_devil: #lispgames is ==> that way 07:33:02 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 07:33:07 republican_devil: (the answer is yes, apparently) 07:37:02 -!- sharps``` [~user@ip-118-90-124-109.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:39:09 nice 07:39:14 anything like might+magic? 07:39:16 :) 07:42:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:42:14 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@88.116.134.106] has joined #lisp 07:43:06 republican_devil: doubt so 07:43:22 republican_devil: Why do you ask? 07:43:22 republican_devil: that one is a 3d rpg, right? 07:43:30 well was 2d 07:43:38 kinda lie a lil guy or gusy in front of ya 07:43:38 republican_devil: heroes of might & magic? 07:43:42 click hit em button 07:43:44 they go ow 07:43:48 then u go ow 07:43:55 repeat until 1 or you dead 07:43:59 republican_devil: do you speak english also? 07:44:00 then mvoe to next one 07:44:07 sure 07:44:17 I simply love rpgs 07:44:52 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 07:46:12 that nick is too long. 07:47:16 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-190-192.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:56 Master_Yindi [~yindi1951@210-84-59-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:48:58 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-174-32.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:49:08 g'day from the land downunder 07:49:23 any other aussie Drupalers here right now? 07:49:30 hello Master_Yindi 07:50:17 Master_Yindi: i hope not 07:50:23 -!- ejohnson [~elliott@99-100-65-163.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:50:29 :-) 07:52:44 -!- republican_devil is now known as deevil 07:52:46 :) 07:53:25 deevil: Why are you particularly interested in videogames in Lisp as opposed ones written in other languages? 07:54:25 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-12-158.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:18 -!- Master_Yindi [~yindi1951@210-84-59-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 07:57:25 beach: Lisp = Cool. Video Games = Cool. Video Games in Lisp = COOLER 07:57:31 seems simple to me 07:57:42 =) 07:58:07 p_l|uni: You are not the one I asked :) 07:58:47 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:59:42 beach: sorry, I play armchair psychologist from time to time thanks to my choice of courses :P 08:01:11 I dunno 08:01:18 lisp seems to make sense to me a little 08:01:46 and lisp can seemingly do things well 08:01:48 so why not? 08:01:52 p_l|uni: that is how I feel, certainly! 08:01:54 the whole raw power thing? 08:01:57 demands c? 08:02:10 s/power/speed 08:02:19 deevil: that's a flawed conclusion 08:02:53 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:03:19 so c is not needed for speed 08:03:25 neccesarily? 08:03:43 Plenty of people write games in flash or javascript so ... 08:04:04 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:04:09 ya it seems as long as a lot of the program can reside in memory things can go fast 08:04:26 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-174-32.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:26 if love to code up a lil dungeon n dragons game 08:04:29 That's mostly irrelevant. 08:04:41 The point is that games only need to be faster than people. 08:04:46 what the keeping in ram? 08:04:46 And people are slow. 08:04:49 ah! 08:04:50 ok 08:04:59 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:05:09 daaamn 08:05:09 deevil: Zhivago's rhetoric aside, yes you can do fancy 3D stuff in lisp if you're careful. 08:05:42 Although you're probably using opengl there, so ... 08:05:52 Again it comes back to just being faster than the humans. 08:05:59 deevil: with lisp you have the same issue as with all GC'd languages when it comes to time-sensitive tasks - learn about your GC 08:06:12 And hardware is fast enough these days that you don't have to be very efficient in order to beat humans. 08:07:12 where do I learn about the gc, from clisp or sbcl manuals? I guess? 08:07:26 Zhivago: unless you're doing a lot of stuff... 08:07:47 ever see baldur's gate? 08:07:50 *p_l|uni* is one of those that prefer not to rely too much on Moore's law due to personal experience 08:08:05 baldurs gate was awesome for me 08:08:07 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 08:08:40 deevil: for GC details, I recommend a) checking your implementation's manual b) Grabbing some good GC book to learn what the a) spoke about 08:10:07 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:00 hmm 08:11:22 splittist [~John@159-232.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:11:26 morning 08:12:13 I recommend not worrying about GC. 08:12:38 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:39 If it becomes a problem then minimize garbage production, and force collection during breaks in game-play, such as scene loads. 08:13:37 well, true - it only becomes a factor when you really got time sensitive 08:14:14 *p_l|uni* recaps that he prefers not to rely on Moore's Law, as programmers that do routinely make him observe his machines crash 08:16:20 ASau` [~user@77.246.230.250] has joined #lisp 08:17:16 brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:20:04 -!- ASau [~user@77.246.230.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:20:07 hello splittist 08:29:21 timor [~timor@port-92-195-46-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:12 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:32:35 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757ee4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:28 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:34:31 -!- symbole_ [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37:17 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:38:53 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-32-82-254-36-242.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:40:29 kushal [~kdas@117.201.104.176] has joined #lisp 08:40:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@117.201.104.176] has quit [Changing host] 08:40:29 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:40:52 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:42:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:42:38 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:45:36 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:47:52 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 08:47:54 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:49:28 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-24.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:49:35 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-187-24.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:54:33 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-30-82-253-179-93.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:11 Morning 08:56:55 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 08:57:00 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-46-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:06 morning tcr 08:59:12 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-106-104.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:40 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:05:02 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:08:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.229.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:58 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 09:15:48 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:17:36 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 09:20:10 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:21:02 -!- boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:22:02 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 09:23:41 -!- deevil [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:28:58 What a correct type specifier for a list of fixnums? 09:29:26 (declare (type (list fixnum) l)) seems not correct at all. 09:30:04 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:34:52 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-51.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 09:35:38 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@88.116.134.106] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 09:36:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 09:36:38 Axioplase_: lists can contain anything 09:37:09 jdz: yes, but not the ones I'm passing to a given function! 09:37:10 Axioplase_: I wish I could remember the real answer. The answer I vaguely remember is "the specifier is convoluted" and "it doesn't make a difference anyway" 09:37:29 Axioplase_: you can use the SATISFIES type specifier if you really want it 09:37:55 Axioplase_: Is your list of fixed length? 09:37:56 Xach: ah, I'll take your word for it then (I still have decent speed, so gain might not be worth wasting time on this now) 09:38:01 tcr: yes. 09:38:08 length 9. 09:38:18 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@88.116.134.106] has joined #lisp 09:38:31 using lists might not be the best approach if they are of fixed length... 09:38:36 Axioplase_: My I interest you in a typed array? 09:39:06 Axioplase_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/96264/ 09:39:30 jdz: Well, I could use apply and 9 elements The list contains a (generated) permutation of 1 to 9. 09:39:33 Err disregard that 09:39:39 (I wonder if there is an untyped array... if you use T as element?) 09:39:45 *element type 09:40:47 (make-array '(9) :element-type 'fixnum) is IMHO a better idea 09:41:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xrdeyroohoknqhek] has joined #lisp 09:41:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:41:57 the functions will have to be changed to accept a single argument -- the array of numbers -- instead of spreading out all the elements 09:42:20 Axioplase_: are you doing some kind of cellural automaton? 09:42:25 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:42:36 jdz: no, some kind of problem 32 in project euler :) 09:44:05 ahh, brute force approach 09:44:30 I generate all permutations (list of ints), then split each list in 3 parts, convert into number with (+(* 100 (car l)) (* 10 (cadr l)) (caddrl)), and do the math. 09:44:36 well, fixnum is almost never a good idea. 09:44:43 better to specify the real range or size. 09:45:15 emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 09:45:15 -!- emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:45:15 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 09:45:59 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 09:46:21 fe[nl]ix: is 0.7.2 a minor patch of 0.7.1? 09:51:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:51:43 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757ee4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:23 *Xach* can't tell where it is in gitk 09:55:20 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.197.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:57:00 H4ns` [~user@p579F8FA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:53 boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:00:19 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:00:52 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E313.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:05:08 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-134-108.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:10:57 <_8david> I would expect fixnum arrays to combine the advantages of immediate array elements and not having to rebox on retrieval, which can be important. 10:11:22 <_8david> Whether that is a benefit to performance depends on whether the operations done on the elements after retrieving them (or before storing them) are compiled as fixnum operations or as unboxed operations. 10:14:16 okflo [~okflo@188-23-86-191.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:14:34 <_8david> For example, with SBCL on 64 bit platforms, there are no 32 bit unboxed elements anyway IIRC, because fixnums are a supertype of (unsigned-byte 32). So if you actually want unboxed values, you need to go for (unsigned-byte 64) array elements. 10:14:37 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:15:25 <_8david> The lesson is that you need to know what you're optimizing for, and benchmark performance to identify whether compiler and runtime agree with you. 10:17:27 *_3b* doesn't follow that logic 10:17:31 tfb [~tfb@92.41.237.130.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:18:18 <_3b> fixnum is a supertype of BIT too, and bit arrays (or was it just vectors?) are required by the spec 10:18:27 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-178-106.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:24 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:22:14 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:24:24 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:26:05 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:26:21 afternoon 10:26:41 _3b: hi. did you see the cl-opengl patch? 10:27:17 <_3b> nikodemus: yeah, not been productive enough last few days to do anything with it yet though :/ 10:27:25 fair enough :) 10:27:34 *_3b* will probably switch to specific imports from alexandria rather than shadowing though 10:32:13 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-51.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:35:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@gate.kikuei.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:35:58 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:36:43 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:38:30 <_8david> _3b: ok, you're right about that point. I've been confusing arrays and objects there. 10:39:08 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.237.130.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:45:20 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-8.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 10:55:12 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:29 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483D8B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:05:21 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:41 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007059.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 11:14:57 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:17:02 -!- okflo [~okflo@188-23-86-191.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:22:03 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 11:27:13 ____________________________________________ 11:27:13 | ;; Q is the e^(a*x) part, A is a, | 11:27:14 | ;; M is M, and D is d. | 11:27:14 | (defun m2-d*x^m*%e^a*x (expr var par) | 11:27:14 | (m2 expr | 11:27:16 | `((mtimes) | 11:27:18 | ((coefftt) (d free2 ,var ,par)) | 11:27:20 | ((mexpt) (x alike1 ,var) | 11:27:20 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 11:27:23 -!- Quadrescence [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has been kicked from #lisp by Krystof (Quadrescence) 11:27:24 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 11:27:26 | (m free2 ,var ,par)) | 11:27:28 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:27:28 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has left #lisp 11:27:54 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 11:28:00 :{ 11:28:21 so much for a good cowsay 11:28:31 Don't take it personally. You just suck. 11:28:38 :-) 11:28:41 you mean my client does 11:28:57 (combine 'cowsay 'irc) => #xBADF00D 11:29:13 ha 11:30:03 Anyone available for an emacs bug report? I think BREAK should be fontified like ERROR not like COND. 11:36:41 ... Once again, I find myself wanting to copy a block of text on one machine, and paste it on another. 11:37:17 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.89] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:37:23 nyef: Are you far from manchester? 11:37:24 *_3b* does that all the time... but then i'm controlling all the machines involved from the same keyboard/mouse 11:37:41 Xach: It's about a half-hour drive, I think. 11:38:08 ah, not worth the bother, probably. 11:38:21 Mmm. You thinking a meetup before you fly out? 11:38:22 I'm flying out of MHT, thought maybe I could drop off the book. 11:39:08 You're right, probably not worth the bother. Maybe a later BLM? 11:39:23 sounds good. 11:44:00 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 11:45:00 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:45:50 hello lispers 11:46:30 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 11:46:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 11:46:30 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:46:48 hello kiuma 11:47:02 if targetting win32/64+threads+gui does ccl+clwx sounds good? what about clisp+threads(still alpha, but stable?)? 11:49:26 tfb [~tfb@92.41.237.130.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:50:13 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-106-104.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:51:16 lharc: I'd take ccl over clisp. 11:51:30 (Not because I like ccl, but because I dislike clisp.) 11:52:04 Then again, I might also sink some time into fixing up SBCL in such a situation. 11:52:50 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pwjklfpecrrhqujk] has left #lisp 11:54:26 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:57:42 nyef: thanks for your thoughts.. I've seen the sbcl-win32-threads repo on github, I hope it is a smooth ride. 11:58:07 *nyef* still hasn't actually looked at the win32-threads stuff. 11:58:31 I know of a couple problems with stock SBCL/Win32, though. 12:01:55 someone should translate hes russian blog. Looks like it contains alot of useful info, especially argument description of define-vop. 12:04:45 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.238] has joined #lisp 12:05:40 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-4-143.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:06:18 A different description than the one in #P"SRC:COMPILER;META-VMDEF"? 12:06:44 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-48-17.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:08:22 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-174-32.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 12:08:52 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-4-143.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 12:08:58 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-4-143.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:09:37 Is there a good freely-available code-coverage tool for CL? 12:09:56 SB-COVER ? 12:10:05 *beach* googles... 12:10:26 Thanks! 12:10:51 NP. 12:10:56 You probably even have it installed. 12:11:10 Yeah, that might be. 12:11:52 Looks pretty easy to use as well. 12:14:29 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:16:28 nyef: excerpt: meta-vmdef: "policy: Specifies the policy under which this VOP is the best translation." blog: "policy: determines when to invoke this VOP (if there is a choice among the available VOP):: small - when you need a little code,: fast - when you need fast code,: safe - secure code, and: fast-safe - fast and secure." 12:16:42 Ahh. Fair enough. 12:18:09 xan_ [~xan@gate.kikuei.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:24 nyef: That's pretty nice actually! 12:21:34 -!- lonstein_ is now known as lonstein 12:24:35 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.237.130.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:24:37 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:25:01 Actually, yeah, I'm finding that the comments in the code really aren't a very good explanation of what's going on. 12:27:06 coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:35 ADD 1 TO COBOL GIVING COBOL 12:27:35 self documenting code right there folks 12:28:39 ... Is this where we "say Grace"? 12:28:40 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-btullmtthxovmgrc] has joined #lisp 12:29:27 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xrdeyroohoknqhek] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:29:56 -!- bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:31:34 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:19 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-234.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:23 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-190-192.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:34:15 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:05 thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has joined #lisp 12:36:49 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:37:10 *Kovensky* wonders how well do windows CL impls deal with unicode filenames 12:37:57 Sounds like a good topic for a blog post! 12:38:17 Kovensky: well enough, afaik. At least LW and ACL, I think 12:38:35 nyef: does SBCL/win32 use 9x-compatible calls or the native NT style? 12:38:46 I... don't know? 12:39:04 it's funny 12:39:13 Oh, wait, it goes through the MSVCRT wrappers, doesn't it? 12:39:15 there are a bunch of programs that don't work at all with unicode filenames 12:39:23 but are still 9x incompatible 12:39:36 Kovensky: yeah, but of course everyone bitches on MS 12:39:36 -!- danlentz [~dan@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:39 nyef: if it goes, it needs to use the w functions; if it doesn't, then it fails 12:40:21 nyef: there's no way around using ConsoleWriteW though, apparently microsoft thought it was a good idea to convert wprintf's output to local CP before outputting to their terminal... thing 12:41:01 *nyef* proposes to ignore the problem. 12:41:46 My one windows box is for web browsing, not for development, so I haven't even tried SBCL/Win32 in ages. 12:41:52 *Kovensky* has written a shitty pure perl wrapper around most windows function so his perl script that deals with weird filenames works ._. 12:42:09 and since it prints a lot of stuff to the console I prefer to be able to at least copypaste real characters instead of see ? printed everywhere 12:42:48 the wrapper actually works, but it has a lot of bugs (none of which I hit in the code I use, but I can see the bugs all over it D:) and was badly written to begin with ._. 12:43:52 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:45:59 EnglishGent [~nobody@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:46:03 hi all :) 12:46:39 can someone recommend an *efficient* way of representing sets please? representing them as lists doesnt work for what I want - as determining membership is proportional to list length & that's too slow :| 12:46:43 thanks! :) 12:46:45 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 12:46:48 Hunh. Is there some API to determine if "//servername/share" is a valid network share that the user can access? 12:46:52 EnglishGent: Bitvectors. 12:47:33 More typically, integers treated as bitvectors. 12:47:53 nyef - I dont know about those 12:47:56 nyef, EnglishGent: and not hashtables? 12:48:39 hashtables at least would be time-efficient 12:48:48 jdz - I was origionally thinking of hashtables ... I was wondering if I could just have a table binding using items as keys with them all having the value of true 12:48:59 however.... it doesnt actually seem to work (at least in elisp) 12:49:03 although depending on the kind of sets it could also be possible to have bitvectors 12:49:25 uhh, elisp... 12:49:33 ah, this is common lisp :) 12:49:54 I've been sort of resisting moving to common lisp in an attempt to keep all my code as platform neutral as possible :) 12:50:04 *EnglishGent* is trying to avoid cl-specific stuff like CLOS 12:50:09 EnglishGent: the platform being emacs? 12:50:29 well - it's nicer if the code I write can be used either by emacs or by a common lisp enviroment 12:50:34 EnglishGent: Emacs seems to be more restrictive platform than CL 12:50:45 elisp is clisp compatible? 12:50:48 and the differences between the two are too big in practice, I believe 12:50:49 Elisp has hash-tables, too, nowadays 12:50:59 if you do require 'cl - it's pretty compaticle p_l|uni 12:51:00 Kovensky: clisp /= common lisp 12:51:04 Kovensky: isn't. And CL, not clisp 12:51:08 Kovensky: not really. it has a vague emulation library, no CLOS, bigints, fixnums only, etc. 12:51:11 you dont get CLOS - but you get most things 12:51:13 yeah, just noticed 12:51:17 EnglishGent: "pretty compatible" != "compatible" 12:51:23 and it's still dynamically bound, and lacks closures, so ick. 12:51:30 I don't even use clisp for CL =p 12:51:36 yeah dynamic scope I dont like :| 12:52:04 oh, it can be very useful, but makes a poor default. 12:52:44 but basically I'm trying to keep the code so that porting it across Common Lisp / Scheme / Elisp / Clojure / etc should involve a minimum of effort 12:53:25 once you start making heavy use of (e.g. multiple-dispatch) porting it would become a nightmare 12:54:19 <_3b> ... and using it from any would be equally annoying? 12:54:28 :) 12:54:48 I'm constructing some library code for dealing with the predicate calculus - and whilst not _essential_ it would be a bonus if it's easy to port 12:55:15 doing my best to keep the interface clean _3b :) 12:55:42 <_3b> more a question of having a definition of 'clean' that applies to multiple languages 12:56:02 -!- mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:56:26 well only to lisp-like languages - making it neutral across languages generally would be a real pain 12:57:40 representing statements as lists is pretty natural e.g. (forall x exists y (and (p x y) (q x y))) 12:59:44 doing it in another functional language would be a pain - the lists are heterogenous - so ML / Haskell are out - unless you want to construct your own Statement type, which would be a nightmare with something still evolving as rapidly as this code 13:00:30 and doing it in lesser languages (Java, etc) would be even worse 13:00:34 :) 13:01:00 predicate logic is evolving? 13:01:43 The real trick with dealing with predicate calculus is writing the parser for the subset of TeX you need. 13:02:02 *first order* predicate logic isnt evolving - logic as a whole certainly is 13:02:23 e.g. consider the distinction between the two different modes of predication recently invented / discovered by Zalta 13:02:44 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:43 even FOL is subject to foundational refinement/reformulation 13:03:54 well, obviously. I'm just confused why making an algebraic type in ML or haskell to cover the particular language(s) you want. 13:04:06 would be so tricky* 13:05:08 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:05:24 btbngr - becuase the exact details of the language(s) I want have shifted several times during this project (expression problem) - once things become more stable I might well redo it in a more strongly typed setting 13:05:45 but if you add / remove ADT constructors you have to rewrite every blasted function that works on the ADT in question 13:05:51 no such problem with simple lists 13:06:26 nod. still. to be honest, i'd attack the problem in common lisp or scheme rather than elisp, then when you know what you're actually writing, worry about porting 13:07:31 btbngr - on balance I think I agree with you .. I'd hoped for portability - if it wasnt going to cost me anything extra I figured it would be a nice-to-have 13:07:48 but it's looking like it's starting to cost me after all :| 13:09:37 EnglishGent: especially since at least three of mentioned languages have different syntax for function definition 13:09:57 as pl_l|uni says 13:10:27 anyway ... I need to get back to coding this - thanks a lot for the help everyone :) 13:10:32 np 13:10:57 -!- EnglishGent is now known as EnglishGent^most 13:11:06 -!- EnglishGent^most is now known as EnglishGent^afki 13:11:15 mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:11:43 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-8.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:12:18 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-8.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 13:14:34 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:23 jweiss [~weissj@cpe-069-134-025-078.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:14 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:22:32 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:26:57 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:27:06 *p_l|uni* wonders when people notice HTML5 is going to fuck up scrapers 13:27:59 x 13:28:06 Xach: ? 13:28:37 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cvvhvgqajejmnvkd] has joined #lisp 13:29:44 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 13:30:22 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-btullmtthxovmgrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:31:01 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D8B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:04 p_l|uni: Why would it? 13:32:21 Quadrescence: http://paste.lisp.org/+2H8O <--- look 13:32:31 it's all valid HTML5 :) 13:32:41 haha, okay I see. 13:32:48 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:32:52 HTML5, being SGML application, not XML, is definitely less structured 13:35:10 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:40:19 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:06 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:37 okflo [~okflo@91-115-80-211.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:53:05 -!- okflo [~okflo@91-115-80-211.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 13:53:13 -!- guther2 [guther@irc.ipv6.kunsmann.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:53:51 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@2001:858:745:a0e4:200:1aff:fe19:d355] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:53:57 okflo [~okflo@91-115-80-211.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:54:05 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:03 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 13:56:23 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:56:35 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:02:37 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:14 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 14:03:52 guther2 [guther@kunsmann.eu] has joined #lisp 14:04:06 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:05:56 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:18 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 14:11:19 Blkt [~user@160.80.132.14] has joined #lisp 14:11:31 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:12:28 emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:28 -!- emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:12:28 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 14:13:41 carlocci [~nes@93.37.221.117] has joined #lisp 14:13:49 antifuchs [~foobar@2001:858:745:a0e4:200:1aff:fe19:d355] has joined #lisp 14:15:08 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 14:16:44 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:20:55 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:21:57 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cvvhvgqajejmnvkd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:22:58 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:25:16 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:25:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-wlxvcuaekteaeuyv] has joined #lisp 14:25:38 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.162] has joined #lisp 14:28:21 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:29:49 Well, this is weird. Changing the syntax of ?\; in the *slime-repl* buffer makes completion not work correctly. 14:31:04 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:35:21 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:09 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 14:36:22 rtoym: that does sound weird, but so does changing the syntax of ; 14:37:24 Well, the syntax on xemacs is ?< (comment starter). stassats suggested changing it to be a regular character, as it is on emacs. 14:39:29 So not terribly weird after all. I stand corrected (: 14:40:15 muddyferret [~muddyferr@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:51 brown [~user@nat/google/x-gbektgcfzcyosfpm] has joined #lisp 14:41:00 -!- brown is now known as reb 14:41:34 But it really breaks completion, which is even worse. :-( 14:41:56 -!- muddyferret [~muddyferr@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:42:09 uyerd [4f2a5a9f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.42.90.159] has joined #lisp 14:43:20 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:43:23 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 14:44:40 -!- uyerd [4f2a5a9f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.42.90.159] has left #lisp 14:45:27 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-10-52.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:47:25 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:48:16 schoppenhauer1 [~christoph@ppp-93-104-80-51.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 14:49:51 They fixed my bug!!! :) 14:50:13 I thought you'll be interested to know. Reporting bugs to ecl is not useless. They fix them. 14:50:17 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-134-108.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:51:07 Quadrescence: http://paste.lisp.org/+2H8O <--- look <-- firefox renders the smiley wrong :( 14:51:24 Nibble [~Nibble@81-235-216-50-no113.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:45 hello. 14:51:49 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:57 how do I use sockets in Common lisp? 14:52:02 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007059.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 14:52:14 have a look at usocket 14:52:20 minion: tell Nibble about usocket 14:52:21 Nibble: direct your attention towards usocket: usocket is an MIT-licensed sockets networking library providing a portability layer encapsulating implementation specific sockets programming details. http://www.cliki.net/usocket 14:52:23 minion: tell Nibble about iolib 14:52:24 Nibble: please see iolib: I/O(mainly networking) library containing: a BSD sockets library, a DNS resolver and an I/O multiplexer that supports select(2), epoll(4) and kqueue(2). http://www.cliki.net/iolib 14:52:40 do I need both? 14:52:51 if you need select... 14:53:52 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:53:53 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1C8C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:54:08 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007110.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 14:56:05 if (require :asdf) answers with nil 14:56:12 it didn't find it right? 14:56:22 no, it is already loaded 14:56:34 hmm, slime must have loaded it for me already 14:56:35 :( 14:56:52 asdf is autoloaded on sbcl 14:56:58 oh, nice 14:57:08 you might want to have a look at quicklisp. that's really nice :) 14:57:21 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 14:57:38 http://beta.quicklisp.org/ 14:57:53 benny [~benny@i577A2D08.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:54 how do I install something with asdf? 14:58:19 Nibble: you try to use quicklisp 14:58:22 that's what quicklisp is for. asdf is mainly for dependencies of stuff you already have on your machine 14:58:54 Nibble: look at the quicklisp link. Quicklisp is the Apis mellifera's patellas 15:01:14 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:01:55 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:04:10 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 15:05:48 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:28 how do I load usocket after installing it (like, include it) 15:06:56 Nibble: sbcl - (require 'usocket) 15:07:09 others: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'usocket) 15:07:25 it returns nil 15:07:34 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:07:35 does that mean success? 15:07:42 yep 15:07:47 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:48 how intuitive 15:07:50 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-wlxvcuaekteaeuyv] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:50 :/ 15:08:02 Nibble: you did not get errors, did you? 15:08:16 nope 15:08:33 Nibble: so -- great success! 15:08:46 jdz: any success is great success! 15:08:50 in new asdf asdf:load-system should return T 15:09:23 as per the spec, the return value of REQUIRE is implementation-dependent 15:09:30 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-8.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:09:53 Nibble: if it did not work, you get a lot of errors (debug-popups) 15:10:14 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:19 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:10:32 now I just need a good guide on how it usocket works 15:10:35 -!- xan_ [~xan@gate.kikuei.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:11:35 try reading the included test-usocket.lisp 15:12:03 it should be in your ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/usocket-20101006-svn/ 15:12:11 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:16 together with http://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/api-docs.shtml 15:12:19 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:13:18 Nibble: unix-way. Don't say anything if you have nothing to say. asdf does exactly what you told it to do. Why should it say anything? nil is like default value when you have nothing to say 15:13:54 fair enough 15:14:11 eheh 15:22:33 serichsen [~user@f048102120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:22:36 Hello! 15:23:41 fatblueduck [~user@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:32 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:24:41 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Client Quit] 15:24:48 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:26:02 ericklc [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:26:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Client Quit] 15:26:10 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:26:11 -!- ericklc [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:26:15 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:27:38 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:14 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:26 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:38:51 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:40 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-166-27.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:40:56 -!- okflo [~okflo@91-115-80-211.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:41:29 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:43:24 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 15:43:32 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b52-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 15:44:20 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 261 seconds] 15:44:52 ralfD [~user@i59F4A027.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:48:17 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:49:35 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 15:54:53 I can't find any resources on usocket 15:55:08 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b52-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:55:54 did you try its source code? 15:56:43 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007110.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:56:50 stassats: nope 16:01:20 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-32-210.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:01:22 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-32-210.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 16:01:29 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-32-210.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:02:26 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-4-143.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:02:58 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007047.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 16:03:07 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-32-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:31 Jabberwockey [~jens@85.22.93.138] has joined #lisp 16:04:32 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:06:38 stassats: hum, swap-bytes has a bit of overlap with nibbles 16:07:35 perhaps, and i don't use it actually, i don't know why i wrote it 16:08:24 heh 16:08:33 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:09:43 stassats: because I poked you :P 16:09:52 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 16:09:58 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 16:10:19 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007047.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:42 fe[nl]ix: before that 16:10:56 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@85.22.93.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:11:57 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757ee4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:04 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:27 -!- Blkt [~user@160.80.132.14] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please!] 16:14:59 okflo [~okflo@91-115-80-211.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:15:06 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 16:16:02 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:08 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:19:12 ak70 [~ak70@a215.199.adsl.nextweb.net.mt] has joined #lisp 16:19:34 gonzojive [~red@adsl-76-200-103-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:47 ejohnson [~elliott@99-100-65-163.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:03 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:26:40 Fare [~Fare@adsl-69-227-148-197.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:32 -!- gonzojive [~red@adsl-76-200-103-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 16:28:57 kclifton [~kclifton@64-110-238-43.regn.static.sasknet.sk.ca] has joined #lisp 16:29:19 wakeupsticky_ [ae1d67af@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.29.103.175] has joined #lisp 16:30:18 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:30:36 hey, if i've just run (ql:quickload "[library]"), how do i then use that library in my programs? so far no lisp book/webpage has said anything about what you need to put at the top of your .lisp file to use library functions... 16:30:56 minion: tell wakeupsticky_ xach-asdf? 16:30:57 wakeupsticky_: please look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 16:32:02 Wombatzus [~user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:18 -!- Wombatzus [~user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32:42 Wombatzus [~user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:48 maden [~maden@198.168.103.254] has joined #lisp 16:39:16 That is asdf-specific. Should I go through the instructions anyway, even though i'm trying to use quicklisp? 16:39:40 wakeupsticky_, quicklisp uses asdf 16:39:44 -!- vs [~fualo@markov.genomecenter.ucdavis.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:39:47 oh 16:39:49 wakeupsticky_: quicklisp is built on top of asdf, pretty much 16:40:02 ok, i'll finish out the instructions and see if it works 16:40:38 vs [~fualo@markov.genomecenter.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 16:40:53 wakeupsticky_: the short story: to get the library loaded without learning all about asdf now, put (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (asdf:load-system :library-you-want)) on top of your lisp file 16:41:14 then you can refer to (library-you-want:stuff) 16:41:40 i might as well learn about asdf. :\ 16:41:41 :P 16:41:53 oh my! 16:42:13 wakeupsticky_, please write down as you go the ways that the asdf documentation could be improved 16:42:28 i.e. what questions come to you that are not obviously answered as you go 16:42:46 wakeupsticky_: ASDF ain't gonna eat you :D 16:44:08 fe[nl]ix: Is that defined? You gotta be careful where undefined behavior is involved. 16:44:19 hahaha 16:45:36 -!- schoppenhauer1 [~christoph@ppp-93-104-80-51.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:47:17 gonzojive [~red@adsl-76-200-103-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:26 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:12 asdf comes with vegetarian nasal daemons 16:48:45 (and xcvb will come with vegan ones!) 16:49:33 vegans taste bad 16:49:41 and mk-defsystem is carnivorous? 16:49:47 and are waay too easy to catch 16:51:59 "For maximum convenience you might want to have ASDF loaded whenever you start your Lisp implementation, for example by loading it from the startup script" 16:52:07 ... Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup. 16:52:11 Where is the startup script? 16:52:29 ivan4th: wasn't that "don't prod sleeping dragons"? 16:52:41 yeah, that's dragons, not wizards 16:52:47 the one with wizards was that they are quick to anger and slow to forgive 16:52:52 (and never to forget) 16:52:57 p_l|uni, wakeupsticky_, maybe that too 16:53:08 wakeupsticky_, ~/.sbclrc in case of sbcl 16:53:21 unfortunately, modern pop culture wizards are diluted >_< 16:54:32 *p_l|uni* also really hates the name "wizard" and "druid" for the common dialog style 16:55:31 -!- andreas [~andreas@ip-109-45-49-169.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:46 there are druid dialogs? 16:56:09 the wizard ones is where you click "Next" 16:56:15 Sounds like an open-source programmer joke. 16:56:22 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:56:39 hasn't Oracle banned those? 16:56:47 nyef: GNOME one, actually 16:56:59 GNOME UI libs had "druids" 16:57:05 at least before 2.x 16:57:21 (I stopped using GNOME at 2.2 disgusted with what it became) 16:58:31 btw, concerning being good with ketchup for wizards: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/4c95766a8bdda347 (warning, dangerous code) 16:59:10 Ah, right. He probably thought he'd lived that down. 17:00:05 ... I bow before the greatness of the "corrected" solution 17:00:52 -!- okflo [~okflo@91-115-80-211.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:01:45 no wonder they say lisp community is atrocious 17:01:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:01:51 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 17:02:46 who says that?? 17:02:48 :) 17:02:58 "Them", of course. :-P 17:02:58 They 17:04:03 hargettp [~hargettp@166.137.139.22] has joined #lisp 17:04:12 so, i want to add (require asdf) to .sbclrc? 17:04:28 sbcl loads asdf by default. 17:04:35 it doesn't 17:04:42 slime does 17:04:43 ok, just going through the asdf documentation 17:05:05 ahh. shows how long it has been since I loaded sbcl on it's own. mea culpa. 17:05:14 some contribs in sbcl load asdf 17:05:38 -!- ralfD [~user@i59F4A027.versanet.de] has left #lisp 17:06:01 lol so do i want (require asdf) or not >_> 17:06:20 you don't want _that_ in any case 17:06:27 ok 17:06:33 because it won't work 17:06:35 wakeupsticky: you could load asdf and other oftenly used libraries and save a core 17:06:38 it should be (require 'asdf) 17:07:08 wait, on the doc page it has (require :asdf) 17:07:14 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:07:20 that'll do too 17:07:32 wakeupsticky_, REQUIRE is a function 17:07:38 as well as (require "ASDF") 17:07:58 (require asdf) will try to get the value of variable named ASDF before invoking REQUIRE 17:08:09 ah 17:08:12 wakeupsticky_, where is that quote about loading asdf early from? 17:08:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:28 http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Loading-ASDF.html#Loading-ASDF 17:08:48 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:09:07 -!- gonzojive [~red@adsl-76-200-103-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 17:09:14 *p_l|uni* used to have (require :asdf) in his .sbclrc 17:09:26 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@166.137.139.22] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:09:56 otoh, it was replaced for long time with slightly more complex code that loaded newest ASDF2 17:11:06 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1803351 for those who haven't seen it yet btw 17:11:31 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:11:55 Fare, that quote is the last thing on the page i just linked to. 17:12:31 -!- Fare [~Fare@adsl-69-227-148-197.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13:14 timor [~timor@port-92-195-46-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:15:16 ok, i'm bewildered at configuring asdf. 17:15:19 -_- 17:15:54 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:16:13 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:18 adeht, Python is not a bad language, but it's not Lisp and it has that incurable REPL deficiency, thus it cannot replace CL. 17:16:31 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-35-37.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:16:57 REPL deficiency? 17:17:03 wakeupsticky_: some of the docs are written for those wanting to use ASDF to build a time machine on the entire google server farm in 15 different configurations with untrustworthy programmers. It is hugely likely that what you want to do is so simple it's not even covered (: 17:17:15 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.96.57] has joined #lisp 17:17:33 yes, all i want to do is use mcclim in a program! lol 17:17:55 gonzojive [~red@adsl-76-200-103-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:12 ivan4th: heh, I don't like python at all.. I just posted that link here because of the participants.. norvig/pg/gigamonkey 17:18:23 (and weinreb..) 17:18:23 wakeupsticky_: have a look at the .asd for another program that uses mcclim e.g. climacs, beirc, ftd, gsharp... 17:18:30 adeht: I was about to point out weinreb :P 17:18:31 stassats: the running Python program tends to be organized in such way that redefining stuff is very painful, and lack of automagic instance updates is just the top of iceberg 17:19:25 you can make swank-python but it will be nearly useless 17:21:37 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-234-2.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:21:49 wakeupsticky_: it should be as simple as putting #:mcclim in the :depends-on clause of your defsystem (in your .asd) 17:21:55 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 17:22:08 i just downloaded gsharp and there is no .asd file. 17:22:22 wakeupsticky_: having quick-loaded mcclim, of course (: 17:22:36 good evening everyone 17:22:58 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:23:07 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 17:24:01 gsharp has no .asd file. 17:24:13 that can't be true 17:24:58 http://common-lisp.net/project/gsharp/ go there and download and extract it. 17:25:14 beamin.lisp through utilities.lisp 17:25:45 wakeupsticky: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=projects/gsharp/gsharp.git;a=tree 17:25:58 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:26:44 wakeupsticky_: in any event, while there is an .asd, it tries to do some magic to work with mk-defsystem, which was last used in building stonehenge 17:26:48 it's there but not in what i unpacked 17:26:50 tritchey [~tritchey@wsip-70-165-136-239.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:02 i was about to say, that .asd file is not enlightening 17:27:14 wakeupsticky: I don't think you want the 2003 version :) 17:27:23 okflo [~okflo@91-115-80-211.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:28:22 (in-package #:asdf) (defsystem :wakeup :depends-on (#:mcclim) :compenents ((:file "packages")(:file "macros" :depends-on "packages")(:file "app" :depends-on "macros"))) 17:28:58 splittist: exectp remove in-file :depends-on and replace with :serial t :) 17:29:16 i've started liking :serial t -- much less of a maintenance burden 17:29:28 so there's no non-magic way to use libraries -_- 17:29:39 nikodemus: fair enough. I should do this. 17:29:52 (asdf:load-system :mcclim) 17:30:24 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:31:11 wakeupsticky_: what is non-magic? Perhaps I've missed the bit where you said what you wanted to do. (To answer another question: once you have quickloaded a system, it will be available via asdf [which might be hooked into your implementation's REQUIRE] from then on.) 17:31:51 i.e., typing "import mcclim" at the top of a .lisp file, then writing some functions, then compiling and running. 17:31:57 like a normal language. 17:32:41 wakeupsticky_: don't say 'normal' if you want help (without copious smilies) 17:32:54 sorry 17:32:59 wakeupsticky_: hmmm... so C and C++ and the bigger part of .NET aren't "normal" anymore? 17:33:03 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:33:10 (come to think of it, Java as well) 17:33:11 just seems like asdf is overly complicated is all. 17:33:18 or rather the whole library system. 17:33:23 nikodemus: I hate :serial t 17:33:38 wakeupsticky_: because you're mistaking Python-style "import" with a build system 17:33:43 comming to a project, it does not give you any idea how the project is structured 17:33:47 (defmacro lame-import (&rest system-designators) `(eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (dolist (system ',system-designators) (asdf:load-system system)))) 17:33:59 right 17:34:06 ... 17:34:52 sbcl itself is the kind of the worst contender in :serial t :-) 17:35:17 wakeupsticky_: see also http://github.com/xach/quickproject#readme 17:35:19 all i want to do is read through the mcclim documentation and then be able to use mcclim functions in my program. Not build some massively complex system. 17:36:02 wakeupsticky_: so define a simple ASDF system, since you'll need one to for your program anyway unless you want to stick everything in one file 17:36:02 there are lots of simple asdf files that you can look at to model your own off of. 17:36:14 benny99 [~benny@f055251091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:28 if you want to see a very well laid out lisp system, look at xach's zs3 17:36:49 it's a big system, but the asd file is straight forward. 17:37:10 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:16 also, quickproject, as splittist just pointed out. 17:37:18 :) 17:37:28 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:50 http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html <--- i tried this and got errors 17:38:25 paste the code ant the errors. 17:38:31 paste.lisp.org 17:38:35 s/ant/and 17:39:43 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050064241.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:07 -!- benny99 [~benny@f055251091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:40:56 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-32-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 17:41:24 ok, i will go through the tutorial again, create the files, get the error message and put it all on pastebin 17:41:43 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: hometime] 17:41:51 well, code and errors say a lot more, more accurately, than a frustrated programmer usually does. :) 17:43:47 -!- maden [~maden@198.168.103.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:58 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:45:06 *splittist* qls qp 17:48:40 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu382.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:50:04 ok, i have my .lisp file and my .asd file and i'm quickloading mcclim...i'm now about to try to compile the .lisp file 17:50:58 benny99 [~benny@f055251091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:51:22 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-7-127.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:38 Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:38 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:51:38 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 17:51:44 wakeupsticky_: which you will do by loading your system, which your lisp will know about because it can find your .asd (or because you've loaded the .asd, but apparently that is Not The Right Thing) 17:53:07 -!- btbngr [~btbgnr@212.183.140.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53:42 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:54:32 http://pastebin.com/5h21YZDx 17:55:31 well, for one, you don't (load "pokerlab.asd") 17:55:43 ok 17:55:48 asd is a file read by the asdf system. 17:55:51 s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 17:55:59 so you can (require :pokerlab) 17:56:06 assuming asdf knows where that file is. 17:56:28 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@88.116.134.106] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 17:56:28 is the directory containing pokerlab.asd in asdf:*central-registry*? 17:56:35 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 17:56:44 Fade: that's not the issue. 17:56:45 i didn't put it there. 17:57:05 wakeupsticky_: once you've loaded pokerlab.asd, you still have to get asdf to take that system definition and load the program itself. 17:57:23 ok. i don't know how to do that. :( 17:57:38 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:57:44 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:53 sorry i couldn't get more from the asdf docs but the configuration page was just over my head. 17:57:53 phrixos [~user@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has joined #lisp 17:58:10 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 17:58:22 (require :pokerlab) will usually do that. More portably, that's (asdf:load-system :pokerlab), nowadays (I believe). 17:58:46 so (asdf:load-system :pokerlab) before trying to compile pokerlab.lisp 17:59:09 (asdf:load-system :pokerlab) will compile pokerlab.lisp 17:59:18 wakeupsticky_: the point of using asdf is to get it compile and load the dependencies for pokerlan abd pokerlab itself. 18:00:24 ok, that looked like it was working, but 18:00:25 *for pokerlab and pokerlab itself. 18:00:26 caught ERROR: ; (during compile-time-too processing) ; The name "MCCLIM" does not designate any package. 18:00:49 new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 18:00:52 that is true 18:01:06 you should've used clim-lisp package 18:01:27 mcclim loads with (ql:quickload "mcclim") 18:01:48 -!- gonzojive [~red@adsl-76-200-103-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:01:48 Fare [~Fare@adsl-99-68-116-221.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:22 it does, but if you specify it as a dependency, it will be loaded automatically 18:02:23 wakeupsticky: I recommend you read http://weitz.de/packages.html 18:02:25 wakeupsticky_: that's the name of the system, like the name of a library in a package manager. The system (library) itself may use other names for its packages (namespaces). 18:04:30 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu382.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:04:59 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-7-127.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:34 mcclim creates a lot of different packages. they're of the form :clim- 18:05:55 *splittist* notices a parenscript reference in the Q&A to Crockford's EE380 presentation 18:05:58 in your package def'n you :use #:mcclim 18:06:18 which doesn't designate a usable namespace. 18:06:19 which makes no sense, i take it 18:06:39 you need to, forex, :use #:clim-user 18:06:42 or whatever. 18:06:53 no, as i said, clim-lisp 18:06:57 so mcclim is a system which contains (?) multiple namespaces. 18:07:07 i'm not a clim user, so I bow to stassats. 18:07:12 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:07:14 or is mcclim a module? 18:07:21 o_o 18:07:40 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:42 mcclim is a system, clim-lisp is a package 18:08:11 but i need to LOAD mcclim before i can USE clim-lisp (?) 18:08:37 because clim-lisp package is defined inside mcclim system 18:08:50 you need to load-system mcclim before you use-package clim-lisp 18:08:51 very different operations. 18:08:59 on very different entities 18:09:24 what other languages do you know? In C++, files and namespaces are very different. 18:09:33 same thing here 18:09:46 so a system is a collection of .lisp files which need to be compiled (?) and a package is a .lisp file which contains function definitions 18:09:50 wakeupsticky_: yes - you need to load the McClim system (of code) before you can refer to the functionality it provides; those references will be to symbols in the various CLIM-* packages. 18:10:43 *splittist* decides not to try a DLL analogy 18:10:51 so mcclim is essentially a bunch of .lisp files and clim-lisp is a single .lisp file 18:11:04 no... 18:11:30 i thought that a package was a namespace, which would be a file full of names which are defined (?) 18:11:44 the namespace exists in lisp. 18:11:46 wakeupsticky: why don't you read the article I recommended? 18:11:49 -!- benny99 [~benny@f055251091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:11:52 the file that defines it is ancillary. 18:12:02 also, what adeht said. 18:12:05 package is a storage for symbols 18:12:13 Good evening everyone! 18:12:38 it can be used within multiple files or without any files at all 18:12:44 Looks like a fascinating discussion. 18:12:49 stassats, that's what i thought i said, but i guess the package exists in lisp but is created BY a file 18:13:41 no, files don't do anything by themselves 18:13:57 and you can create packages without having a single file 18:14:11 hargettp [~hargettp@166.137.139.22] has joined #lisp 18:14:16 that article defines a system very helpfully as "a bunch of code plus some instructions how it should be treated" lol 18:14:19 A package is created as a result of the execution of a form that does that. 18:14:41 which is virtually meaningless 18:14:45 what i said, not what beach said 18:14:59 Yeah, I got it. 18:15:11 wakeupsticky_, a system is a collection of files, with dependencies 18:15:14 wakeupsticky_: no, it describes it pretty well 18:15:21 a package is a namespace that lives in the lisp image 18:15:27 it describes almost everything related to software so it's a poor definition 18:15:29 it's too broad 18:15:42 system => lives on the file system 18:15:50 package => lives in process memory 18:15:57 the two are COMPLETELY uncorrelated 18:15:59 wakeupsticky_: I know this seems like a lot of effort just to play with McClim, but we're trying to help you DTRT so when pokerlab becomes huge everything will Just Work for you (: 18:16:02 wakeupsticky_: asdf systems are pretty much that free form. 18:16:08 except as manually enforced by programmers 18:16:23 i'm not trying to be difficult. :) 18:16:47 wakeupsticky_, just accept reality and create new concepts. 18:16:49 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 18:17:16 so a system is essentially a "bunch of .lisp files" while a package is a "bunch of symbols" which are loaded into memory but don't have to exist in files 18:17:21 -!- phrixos [~user@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:57 something like that 18:18:26 wakeupsticky_: pretty much. Common lisp is very side-effectful; just about everything is defined by executing code that modifies the state of the world. 18:18:48 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has left #lisp 18:18:52 and what i want to USE is not a system, but a package, so that i can refer to the symbols in that package 18:19:00 ie the package clim-lisp, not the system mcclim 18:19:03 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:19:05 right 18:19:25 Right, you REQUIRE a system so that you may USE one of the system's packages. 18:20:16 the system acts behind the scenes (?) while the package is the functions and etc that you are trying to use. 18:20:39 USE-PACKAGE # causes name-conflicts in # between the following symbols: COMMON-LISP:DESCRIBE, CLIM-LISP:DESCRIBE 18:20:54 so there are functions called describe in both packages? 18:21:00 you shouldn't use CL and CLIM-LISP at the same time 18:21:19 that was just because that article had :use #:cl in it 18:21:21 i'll take that out 18:21:37 *nyef* requires a snack. 18:22:18 COMMON-LISP:USE-PACKAGE # causes name-conflicts in # between the following symbols: POKERLAB::DEFPACKAGE, COMMON-LISP:DEFPACKAGE 18:22:20 wakeupsticky: packages don't contain functions, but symbols.. symbols may refer to functions 18:22:36 a system, when loaded, causes a bunch of side-effects into the image -- including creation of new packages and/or modification of existing packages. 18:22:41 wakeupsticky_: you should have (:use #:clim #:clim-lisp) in your defpackage 18:22:56 oh, both clim and clim-lisp? 18:23:01 i just had clim-lisp 18:23:57 wakeupsticky: you've been had by the interning reader :).. do (cl:delete-package "POKERLAB") and then evaluate the defpackage form again 18:23:58 do i want the line (in-package #:pokerlab) after the defpackage form? 18:24:28 USE-PACKAGE # causes name-conflicts in # between the following symbols: POKERLAB::IN-PACKAGE, COMMON-LISP:IN-PACKAGE 18:25:11 you need to put (in-package your-package) before you your code 18:25:37 -!- splittist [~John@159-232.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: This will all become clear - feel the force!] 18:25:48 see the error i just posted 18:25:54 there's a name conflict with "in-package" 18:26:26 did you do what adeht said? 18:26:30 wakeupsticky: (cl:in-package "CL-USER") (delete-package "POKERLAB") (defpackage #:pokerlab (:use #:clim #:clim-lisp)) (in-package :pokerlab) 18:26:46 nice, used several package designators ;) 18:26:55 *kinds of package designators 18:27:19 Symbol "DELETE-PACAKGE" not found in the COMMON-LISP package. 18:27:31 wakeupsticky: spell it right 18:27:38 aha 18:27:39 lol 18:27:41 clime 'clim-lisp for completeness 18:27:52 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-8-255.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:06 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:28:16 err, strike 'clim-lisp out 18:28:52 (delete-package "pokerlab") worked but i get the same error when i try to compile 18:29:09 USE-PACKAGE # causes name-conflicts in # between the following symbols: POKERLAB::IN-PACKAGE, COMMON-LISP:IN-PACKAGE 18:30:35 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD951F542.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:30 wakeupsticky: do you have the same defpackage form as I wrote? 18:32:42 i get the same error about the in-package name conflict 18:32:43 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:44 wakeupsticky: I suspect you actually wrote "pokerlab" instead of "POKERLAB" 18:33:02 wakeupsticky: package names are case-sensitive 18:33:09 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:33:15 i copied and pasted 18:34:11 wakeupsticky: did you paste them one by one? 18:34:24 no 18:34:48 wakeupsticky: do that 18:35:33 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:35:34 jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has joined #lisp 18:35:47 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-10-52.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:36:05 should be four lines right? 18:37:17 -!- okflo [~okflo@91-115-80-211.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:37:17 yes.. if it still fails, I recommend you restart your lisp session.. make sure the defpackage form in your .lisp file doesn't use :cl, and load your system 18:37:38 (make sure it uses :clim and :clim-lisp) 18:38:51 (asdf-load "pokerlab") when i restart? 18:39:14 (asdf:load-system "pokerlab") 18:40:49 should i have run (ql:quickload "mcclim") first? i'm getting a bunch of style warnings about implicitly redefining things 18:41:00 wait, no, the point is not to have to do that, right? 18:41:07 my .asd file tells asdf to load mcclim first 18:41:12 right 18:42:05 Soulman1 [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:42:23 okay, asdf:load-system "pokerlab" succeeded 18:42:48 now i want to try compiling pokerlab.lisp? 18:42:49 moah [~gnu@dslb-084-061-246-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:55 it already compiled and loaded it 18:43:00 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.49.33] has joined #lisp 18:43:18 now you can add more code and evaluate it as you go.. 18:43:47 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@166.137.139.22] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 18:43:53 so now i can, say, write a hello world function using clim 18:43:56 and run it? 18:44:15 yes.. add it in the .lisp file's buffer.. 18:44:30 and then call the function in the repl buffer? 18:44:42 wakeupsticky: you can do that.. 18:44:45 after C-c C-c? 18:44:51 to compile the function i just wrote 18:45:18 yep.. the next time you load the system it'll notice that the file was changed and compile/load anew 18:46:02 thanks for your help. i'm sure i'll be back here with more problems >_> 18:46:08 but right now i have to go work out and have lunch 18:46:21 later 18:46:24 cya 18:46:36 -!- wakeupsticky_ [ae1d67af@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.29.103.175] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:49:07 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:52:13 -!- LaPingvino 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[~mhd@24-176-255-130.static.reno.nv.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:00 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:08:32 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:10:07 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:10:58 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@wsip-70-165-136-239.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:11:12 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 20:14:04 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:18:52 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 20:20:00 minion: memo for drewc: check out yaclml bugfix @ http://paste.lisp.org/display/115676 20:20:00 Remembered. I'll tell drewc when he/she/it next speaks. 20:21:35 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-46-240.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:47 -!- s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:24:40 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD951F542.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914120618]] 20:29:49 etenil [~user@93-96-0-153.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:29:51 Hi there 20:30:09 gigamonkey [~user@38.99.16.178] has joined #lisp 20:30:16 *gigamonkey* is enroute to ILC 20:31:21 dnolen [aa95640a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.170.149.100.10] has joined #lisp 20:31:35 I'm learning lisp, and the macros in particular. In my book they use the following macro: (defmacro check (&body forms) `(progn ,@(loop for f in forms collect `(report-result ,f ',f)))) 20:31:50 I don't understand the use of ",@" 20:31:56 clhs ` 20:31:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 20:32:07 etenil: it splices in the list created by the LOOP ... COLLECT 20:32:08 etenil: it splices the returned list into the form 20:32:17 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:35 ok, but I still don't understand 20:32:37 etenil: c.f. `(a b c ,@'(d e f) g) 20:32:45 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:52 As the book says: "Notice also how you can use ,@ to splice in the result of an expression that returns a list of expressions that are themselves generated with a backquote template." 20:33:14 yes I've read this 20:33:19 several times actually 20:33:33 it's just hard to understand why it's neede 20:33:36 needed 20:33:47 to insert more than one element into a list 20:34:06 it's like pushing then? 20:34:14 no 20:34:15 At you reply try `(foo ,(list 1 2 3)) and then `(foo ,@(list 1 2 3)) 20:34:37 gigamonkey: ok i'll try 20:34:47 ,@ at the end of the list is not the best example, since you can do that with #\. 20:34:56 Or look at table 8-1 in the previous chapter. 20:35:17 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:35:44 stassats: but etenil isn't likely to know that is he. *I* barely know it. ;-) 20:36:50 gigamonkey: I'm looking at the table 8.1 20:37:08 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:37:28 etenil: so look at the difference between the last two rows. 20:37:36 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:45 Kevara [~Kedavra@unaffiliated/kevara] has joined #lisp 20:37:47 ok, `(a ,(list 1 2) c) is like (list 'a (list 1 2) 'c) 20:37:53 ah 20:38:20 so basically @ removes the parentheses from what I see here 20:38:27 basically. 20:38:43 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:25 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:48 then `(progn ,@(loop for f in forms collect `(report-result ,f ',f))) => (progn loop for f in forms collect (report-result f 'f)) 20:40:01 *etenil* scratches his head 20:40:10 `(a ,@b c) is like (append '(a) b '(c)) 20:40:20 etenil: no, it "removes the parens" from the generated list. 20:40:29 gigamonkey: ah 20:40:30 (loop for f in ... collect ...) returns a list. 20:40:41 That list is spliced into the PROGN form. 20:41:52 etenil: one way to see the difference is to inspect the macroexpansions with comma-at and with just comma 20:42:15 then `(progn ,@(loop for f in forms collect `(report-result ,f ',f))) => (progn (report-result (= (+ 1 2) 3) '(= (+ 1 2) 3)) (report-result (= (+ 1 3) 4) '(= (+ 1 3) 4))) 20:42:29 ah I think I understand 20:44:29 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757ee4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:49 so the collect bit in the loop makes a list from the with lots of backquoted lists, replacing th `f' with the relevant form and the ,@ feeds these to the progn? 20:45:20 Yup. For some value of "feeds". ;-) 20:45:35 ok 20:45:38 thank you 20:46:42 I can go on reading the book now :D 20:46:47 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-98-207-157-93.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 20:47:19 Good! 20:47:26 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:47:30 codewad [~codewad@pool-71-112-58-14.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:41 I think it helps to understand the purpose of macros and the concept of providing a template. 20:47:59 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-084-061-246-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:48:16 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 20:48:19 the backquote doesn't have anything directly to do with macros 20:48:42 It's difficult for me to understand when to quote things 20:48:59 I guess it's normal at the beginning 20:49:01 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:49:17 I'll just go on and get more familiar with the examples 20:49:55 Buy a copy of the book. Makes a great gift for that special someone in your life. 20:50:29 Don't limit it to that special someone. Buy it for *all* your friends! 20:51:10 and while you're there, get a $5,000 digital SLR 20:51:15 lol 20:51:27 I did buy one 20:51:29 *p_l|uni* personally found E-500 to be perfectly good DSLR 20:51:36 and it isn't too expensive 20:51:40 it's huge and with a hardback 20:51:47 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 20:52:00 afk 20:52:01 but it's way more comfortable than reading on screen, and cheaper than a second screen :D 20:52:06 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:52:28 I saw someone on the train reading the book. I was surprised. 20:52:35 ah 20:52:42 symbole: are you in london? 20:52:51 No. 20:52:54 ah 20:53:16 -!- Nibble [~Nibble@81-235-216-50-no113.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:54:21 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:33 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:56:19 -!- gigamonkey [~user@38.99.16.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02:20 tmi [~tmi@198.80-202-113.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:59 okflo [~okflo@91-115-80-149.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:03:32 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:22 hu? sbcl gives me a weird warning: "undefined function: WITH-GENSYMS" 21:04:39 Why is that weird? 21:04:47 isn't with-gensyms part of the standard common lisp? 21:04:50 no 21:04:54 ah 21:05:33 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.95.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:05:52 of course the macro doesn't work afterwards 21:06:12 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:06:13 with-gensyms is IMHO introduced by "practical common lisp" 21:06:42 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 21:06:52 yes 21:07:06 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08:21 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:09:51 i've read that lispbuilder-sdl supports opengl and can be used instead of glut but i couldn't find a page that tells how, is there a page that tells how i can do that 21:10:23 ASau`` [~user@77.246.230.250] has joined #lisp 21:11:13 i would check libsdl.org for how and then convert to lispbuilder-sdl way 21:11:46 guaqua_ [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 21:11:57 l_a_m_ [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 21:12:14 franki^_ [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:17 kenanb: use the opengl flag when creating your window, as described here http://lispbuilder.sourceforge.net/lispbuilder-sdl.html#window 21:12:38 emma__ [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:07 then call sdl-gl-swap-buffers instead of sdl-flip 21:13:20 -!- okflo [~okflo@91-115-80-149.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:16:48 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:16:48 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:16:48 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-178-106.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:16:48 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:16:48 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.230.250] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:16:48 -!- Draggor1 [~Draggor@adsl-99-141-186-38.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:16:48 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-248-234.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:16:48 -!- l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:16:48 -!- guaqua 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21:39:48 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:45 Silly article/book title idea: "Parenthetical Common Lisp". 21:44:04 ... 21:44:57 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:45:45 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 21:46:10 'Parenthetical Programming' maybe 21:46:32 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:01 or 'Parenthetical Logic Expression' 21:47:13 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:47:48 nyef: kmp had this column "Parenthetically Speaking" in ACM Pointers or so. 21:48:03 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:08 Fare: Yes, I know. Decent articles, too. 21:48:30 Guthur: ... "Parenthetical Logic Expression Advanced System Explorer"? 21:48:47 lol quality 21:49:01 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.164.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:17 PLEASE: Learn to Program 21:49:21 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:50:15 -!- Blkt` is now known as Blkt 21:52:18 mattrepl [~mattrepl@m1a0436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:24 etenil [~user@93-96-0-153.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:52:56 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:40 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050064241.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:54:43 -!- dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:55:29 i use cl-opengl package from _3b's git page, i got unhandled memory fault the second time i try to run an example, the first time, it works like a charm even if i run all examples at once by "run-examples", any ideas? 21:55:52 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 21:55:59 i think its about glut being already initialized second time but i am kinda newbie, so... 21:55:59 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:15 ... Didn't this conversation happen already? 21:56:22 -!- mhd [mhd@clozure-639E22C3.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:22 -!- mhd [~mhd@24-176-255-130.static.reno.nv.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:24 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:24 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:25 ObDuh Calculus and The Dead Dance of Liszt Processing 21:56:27 Wasn't it blamed on whatever GLUT you were using? 21:56:46 brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:56:56 adeht: Mmm... Hence the old Franz Lisp system. 21:57:16 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 21:57:16 dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has joined #lisp 21:58:20 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-056.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:01:10 nyef: you're right, but it works on other platforms with this version of freeglut so i thought maybe there is another explanation 22:01:41 Which platform fails? OSX? Windows? 22:01:44 anyway, is there a cl-glut command to reset the initialization of glut manually? 22:02:36 it worked on windows, it worked on other linuxes, it causes error when i try in in tinycore linux using software renderer 22:04:13 what I am trying is kinda stupid though, run freeglut as software renderer on xvesa, it works, but somehow fails after first run 22:05:02 I really can't help you there. 22:06:52 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:08:46 Are you wearing a leather outfit beside a lady with a whip kenanb? Looks like you like to suffer! 22:10:32 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:22 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-203-129.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:11:48 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:11:54 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-203-129.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:08 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 22:12:13 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:12:23 etenil: i have a second cheap laptop which somehow burns all hdd's i plug to it :D so at last i gave up getting hdd's or giving money for services to handle the situation, i started experimentin with a linux distro which can run on ram :D i hoped this is the point that will end my suffering, but no 22:12:40 etenil: ... I thought the lady was the one supposed to be in leather 22:13:16 p_l|uni: no, you don't beat a lady 22:13:16 -!- manby-ace [~manby-ace@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Quit: manby-ace] 22:13:20 bad boy! 22:13:21 p_l|uni: i thought so but lets don't interrupt guys fantasy 22:14:00 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:14:29 anyway, thanks nyef 22:14:49 etenil: ... I didn't say anything about beating the lady. It's just that leather tends to soften the hits from the whip and it looks better on the misstress 22:15:22 well I didn't say she didn't wear leather 22:15:42 only that she got the whip 22:16:12 ok, thanks, you made her leave the room 22:16:28 oh, so sad :'( 22:16:52 etenil: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9540080/leather.jpg <--- does that fit? :D 22:17:10 oh yeah 22:17:23 (found during random traversal of a socila network, actually, been part of a demotivator) 22:17:33 isn't that the girl playin Hermionne in Harry Potter? 22:17:58 etenil: yes, the full pic had a caption about "maybe I should watch the latest one" 22:18:00 looks like a fake though 22:18:07 ah ah 22:18:41 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:18:41 demotivational posters are usually a fun way to procrastinate :D 22:18:45 heh 22:19:20 *p_l|uni* actually has "research BDSM" in his TODO. For a novel, though :P 22:19:39 ah 22:20:01 are you looking into parentheses torture? 22:20:16 etenil: no, but it will contain some lisp 22:20:16 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:18 p_l|uni: Less than a fortnight to nanowrimo, huh? 22:20:29 nyef: ... I didn't notice ^^; 22:20:52 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:05 btw, how can i set a glut window to open as a new process 22:21:11 I could try to bootstrap the first volume during nanowrimo, then. 22:21:28 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:21:28 kinda like (:new-process t) option in mcclim 22:21:58 kenanb: That just spawns a new thread, so probably doesn't do what you want. 22:22:00 kenanb: wrap the whole thing in a call to bordeaux-threads thread-making process 22:22:06 *function 22:22:54 -!- etenil [~user@93-96-0-153.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:23:19 nyef: it will be kinda hard to finish it during nanowrimo, unless I only try to write one of the other novels I've got in notes... 22:24:03 (the one I mentioned the research for is logically divided into three parts...) 22:24:38 -!- Fare [~Fare@adsl-69-227-148-197.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:26:28 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-59.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:26:36 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:09 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:25 Which function does the reader call to turn unescaped strings into uppercase before calling intern? 22:35:25 plediii [~plediii@nat-128-42-153-214.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 22:36:19 clhs char-upcase 22:36:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_char_u.htm 22:36:27 Borbus: Almost certainly that one. 22:37:09 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 22:37:13 (That is, it does the conversion on a per-character basis, while accumulating the token.) 22:38:32 Is there no function to do it for the whole string including escape characters? 22:38:38 -!- Kevara [~Kedavra@unaffiliated/kevara] has quit [Quit: Kevara] 22:39:05 clhs string-upcase 22:39:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stg_up.htm 22:39:07 That, perhaps? 22:39:14 It's not what you originally asked for, though. 22:39:28 No that doesn't respect the escape character like the reader does 22:39:54 Ah. How about... READ-FROM-STRING, and treating the result as a string-designator? 22:40:15 Otherwise I'll have to go with "not in the standard". 22:40:20 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:40:26 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@m1a0436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:41:03 mattrepl [~mattrepl@m1a0436d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:14 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@m1a0436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:42:17 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:50 Hmm.. no that doesn't work as expected either, (read-from-string "\x") returns X instead of |x| 22:43:03 Strange 22:44:09 -!- franki^_ is now known as franki^ 22:44:28 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:42 I'll just make my own in that case 22:44:44 -!- franki^ [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:44:44 franki^ [~frankie@unaffiliated/franki] has joined #lisp 22:45:50 Okay, cycle it through with-output-to-string if you want the serialized representation? 22:45:50 aidalgol [~user@132.181.15.216] has joined #lisp 22:46:21 Or even just (format nil "~S" (read-from-string "\x")) 22:49:07 What is that supposed to do? 22:49:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:52:23 What I want is to get the name that the reader passes to intern, so that I can pass it to intern myself 22:52:25 Borbus: "\x" is the string "x". 22:52:57 So if the string is "\x" it would be "x" but "x" would be "X" etc. 22:53:46 Borbus: You might be looking for "\\x". 22:55:00 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:55:05 That does work correctly with read-from-string, but that still requires me to add the extra escapes 22:55:47 Borbus: there is no extra escape. 22:56:01 So, the question is, what are you really trying to do, and why? 22:56:38 Well I suppose I am making a new infix style reader 22:56:38 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.74] has joined #lisp 22:56:52 Borbus: "x" and "\x" are two strings of length 1 with a single character, #\x. 22:56:56 aidalgol` [~user@132.181.15.216] has joined #lisp 22:57:14 -!- aidalgol [~user@132.181.15.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:15 -!- aidalgol` [~user@132.181.15.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:20 An infix /reader/? 22:57:21 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-35-37.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 22:57:39 Well it just converts it to prefix then calls eval 22:57:44 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:47 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D8B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:58:21 It's so I can type maths in infix, and call functions like gcd(x^2,x) etc. 22:58:21 The more usual approach is to define an infix evaluator, or a macro that transforms its body from infix to prefix. 22:59:02 Oh, you mean like in http://common-lisp.net/~abridgewater/lisp-tex-test-2.png ? 23:00:48 I was going to do it like that 23:00:56 timack [~tim@hlfx59-1-7.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:01:48 -!- serichsen [~user@f048102120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 23:02:23 Okay, so there are a few tricks to this, and I haven't worked out all the wrinkles, but the first bits of magic are a $ reader-macro that does the math-syntax reading, and individual terms such as $M_{xx}$ end up as symbols that print readably. 23:02:49 So (print-name $M_{xx}$) => "$M_{xx}$" 23:03:02 Err... 23:03:06 So (print-name '$M_{xx}$) => "$M_{xx}$" 23:03:12 (Forgot the quote.) 23:03:36 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:03:50 I think I also specified that such terms read into a special package, and there was to be a pprint-dispatch involved to make the printing come out right. 23:03:59 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:25 That looks pretty cool, I was thinking about doing something like that 23:05:44 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@64-110-238-43.regn.static.sasknet.sk.ca] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 23:05:45 Since I know how to wrangle the CL side of all that, even if I haven't yet, I turned to the emacs side, which turned out to be a /lot/ harder. 23:05:56 An infix evaluator would have been easier actually 23:06:23 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.10.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:06:28 But this was pretty much the first thing I ever did in CL 23:06:36 So I didn't completely get it back then 23:07:59 I take it you are using preview-latex for emacs? 23:08:46 That was the basic idea, yes. 23:09:10 Anyway, there's the idea and basic approach, and I'm gone for a bit. 23:10:26 infix evaluator = basically remake everything into RPN, then execute on the stack? :D 23:10:34 read-from-string is what I wanted by the way 23:10:48 I was being foiled by the reader when testing it 23:13:06 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-59.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 23:16:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:19:16 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.221.117] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:19:46 Fare [~Fare@adsl-99-68-116-221.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:13 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:20:37 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.124] has joined #lisp 23:23:35 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 23:25:20 bulibuta [~bulibuta@178.156.128.2] has joined #lisp 23:25:20 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@178.156.128.2] has quit [Changing host] 23:25:20 bulibuta [~bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has joined #lisp 23:27:23 hum. 23:27:34 ur5us [~ur5us@121.98.212.19] has joined #lisp 23:27:40 How do I distinguish a macro from a function when introspecting a fbound symbol? 23:27:58 macro-function? 23:28:10 (and (fboundp s) (not (macro-function s))) 23:28:34 (eval `(trace ,@(loop :for s :being :each :present-symbol :of :asdf :when (and (fboundp s) (not (macro-function s))) :collect s))) 23:28:49 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:29:29 ... Next you'll tell us you want to distinguish special-forms as well. 23:30:01 nyef: yes, that would be nice, but for user-defined symbols, that will do 23:30:18 nyef: are special-forms fbound??? 23:30:28 Yes, they are. 23:30:29 (deftype special-operator () '(member if go ...)) 23:30:48 can I define a compiler-macro on something that's not a function or macro? 23:30:55 (speaking of evil) 23:31:01 There's a shortlist of special forms which are in the standard, and a requirement that anything else that's a special form have a macroexpansion. 23:31:35 a macroexpansion into what? can implementations have their own additional special forms? 23:32:07 Implementations can define any macro in the standard to be a special form. 23:37:54 nyef: are they also allowed to define any special form in the standard as a macro? 23:38:41 Yes. 23:39:50 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:40:50 ... no... nooooo.... "variable variables"... please kill me, for PHP had just destroyed my mind 23:40:58 p_l|uni: pointers? 23:40:59 o.o 23:41:05 tritchey [~tritchey@wsip-70-165-136-239.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:19 yep 23:41:25 called "variable variables" 23:41:55 and since PHP apparently doesn't have any real pointer/reference mechanism, they simply contain name of the symbol to reference... 23:41:57 p_l|uni: is this just recently making its way through the internets or something?... 23:42:04 p_l|uni: PHP -does- have a reference mechanism. 23:42:18 separate from these variable variables. 23:42:19 that's nothing, some languages have "immutable variables" 23:42:21 sykopomp: no, I just recently managed to uncover this jewel. I never, ever, expected to see it nor looked from it. 23:42:37 stassats: immutable variables are actually the standard, mutable ones arrived later 23:42:55 gigamonkey [~user@24-176-255-130.static.reno.nv.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:16 Anyone here in Reno? 23:43:26 p_l|uni: I'm not sure what's so horrible about these variable variables. 23:43:32 p_l: "variable variable" reminded me of MAKE-SYNONYM-STREAM :) 23:43:33 I'm also not so sure what's useful about them. 23:44:29 I think it's much more shocking that PHP doesn't protect from integer overflow, or the fact that you can turn an unbound variable into an array by simply assigning to it as if it were. 23:44:48 $my_raray[0] = 1; => great success. 23:44:50 :) 23:45:13 gigamonkey, yes 23:45:16 gigamonkey, dinnerp 23:45:18 Oh, for the PHP equivalent to perl's strict, or VB's Option Explicit, hih? 23:45:19 t 23:45:22 s/hih/huh/ 23:45:25 .... ROTFL 23:45:30 I'm planning to get some exercise first. 23:45:41 I never expected to see *that* exchange irl despite reading Jargon File 23:45:46 nyef: PHP has a strict mode or something. 23:46:03 Joy. Does it get used? 23:46:03 sykopomp: it has? gimme! 23:46:14 nyef: When our developers remember to bother, yes. 23:46:16 (assuming you're not talking about "safe mode") 23:46:17 omfg, I just have this open in some firefox tab 23:46:24 :D 23:46:38 I haven't actually used it myself. I just hear this mythological 'PHP strict' phrase getting passed around that supposedly warns about cases like that. 23:46:55 but clearly, they don't bother using it. It's a Feature. 23:47:06 *nyef* remembers one gig where he was working with VB, and turned on Option Explicit to make sure his code wasn't wrong, but had to turn it off again prior to any real build so that the rest of the module would compile. 23:47:09 *new-lisper* goes back to read the Jargon File 23:47:36 nyef: yeah. There's a certain threshold you cross where good practices are no longer useful. 23:47:43 The New Hacker's Dictionary is the only dictionary I ever read cover to cover. Good times. 23:47:45 Such as having enormous codebases with no unit tests. 23:47:53 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:03 sykopomp: I recently inherited a codebase that looks like drunken attempt at PHP where the tutorial omitted "require" or "include" 23:49:00 my condolences. 23:49:30 I'll in the end replace it with CL or Ruby solution, fortunately 23:51:00 madaco [4c1422d2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.20.34.210] has joined #lisp 23:51:25 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:30 hello 23:52:23 anyone talking aboutout anything here? 23:52:37 no, we talk about lisp 23:52:53 I got that, I meant talking about anything about lisp 23:53:08 or any lisp programs 23:53:15 Not for about the past 20 minutes, why? 23:53:39 *sykopomp* wonders if there's actual specifics on what klambda looks like. 23:53:43 because it seemed weird to ask my newby lisp question without anyone else talking 23:54:08 Fair enough. Now there are people talking. 23:54:30 felideon [~felideon@adsl-233-15-168.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:47 k, thanks. ok, so I was trying to write a function, that takes + and returns * etc. 23:54:54 but I wrote it wrong 23:55:15 what do you mean, take + and return *? 23:56:43 so, it takes the function with 2 inputs that it gets as an argument, and returns a function that repeats the input function on itself and the input for the returned function the other input for the returned function times 23:56:59 I explained that horibly 23:57:18 http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp/ 23:57:26 k 23:57:39 Maybe once you come up with a coherent description in English, it'll be easier to write the code. ;-) 23:57:46 err, http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 23:58:19 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:20 uh, the chat widnow I ahve open might close when I switch tabs, but I will open one that stays open if it does 23:58:48 -!- Fare [~Fare@adsl-99-68-116-221.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:59:25 madaco_ [4c1422d2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.20.34.210] has joined #lisp