00:02:05 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:05:45 ebzzry [~ebzzry@203.213.202.186] has joined #lisp 00:05:49 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:47 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:04 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas11-montrealak-1177756539.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:09:22 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 00:09:24 -!- weirdo [sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:32 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:09:35 weirdo [sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:50 mjonsson [~mjonsson@98.14.173.5] has joined #lisp 00:12:58 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:15:03 -!- dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:51 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:51 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:24:51 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 00:26:46 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:27:40 gonzojive [~red@171.66.92.164] has joined #lisp 00:29:35 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:50 dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has joined #lisp 00:36:39 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.2.85] has joined #lisp 00:37:20 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:40:37 tcleval [~daniel@187.114.115.114] has joined #lisp 00:40:50 -!- tcleval [~daniel@187.114.115.114] has left #lisp 00:41:26 is anyone here remotely interested in critiqueing ~200 lines of lisp code? 00:41:55 tcleval [~daniel@187.114.115.114] has joined #lisp 00:42:03 caelan: depends what kind and whether you're willing to listen to unexperienced lisper :) 00:42:39 p_l|uni: i'm probably just as unexperienced, and it's good to make sure code's readable :) 00:42:57 minion: paste? 00:42:57 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 00:43:01 caelan: spill it! 00:43:04 it's code for handling matrix-based cellular automata 00:43:21 http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~caelanburris/macabre/main/files 00:44:03 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.217.183.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:39 -!- logia_th [~nmo@83.35.117.177] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 00:45:32 caelan: use a keyword for the passed-type, and then no need to export the possible values 00:45:47 caelan: also, use ecase, so passing a typo fails loudly 00:45:54 ecase? 00:45:57 ecase 00:46:24 I don't know why I wrote it again. You can just re-read what I already wrote! 00:46:39 didn't know such a thing existed 00:46:51 i've been reading through an old version of cltl 00:46:54 thanks 00:46:55 It does and it's wonderful. 00:47:36 <_3b> probably better to put the call to F inside the CASE rather than (apply f (case ... (list ...)) 00:48:01 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:05 <_3b> well, funcall f i guess 00:48:12 APPLY is slow 00:48:21 ...really 00:48:36 i always thought it was faster than funcall 00:48:42 *_3b* wouldn't worry about speed as much as readability 00:50:29 <_3b> for that matter, it might be better to have 2 separate functions rather than a keyword arg 00:51:01 <_3b> so you could pass multiple matrices similarly to the standard mapping functions 00:51:36 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-50.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please!] 00:51:38 _3b: i thought about that, but wanted a single function for some reason 00:52:10 i didn't like duplicating the row-column iteration 00:52:13 <_3b> i'd also avoid that INDEX var, no reason to buld a list there if you aren't going to use it 00:52:23 <_3b> well, abstract that part out then :) 00:52:48 <_3b> or implement one of the functions in terms of the other until speed becomes a problem 00:53:55 <_3b> use REDUCE not APPLY to add up the elements of a list 00:55:14 <_3b> AVERAGE should probably make sure the list isn't empty before dividing by its length 00:55:58 <_3b> i'd call CLIP CLAMP, and implement it in terms of MIN and MAX rather than cond 00:56:03 andreas1 [~andreas@p579F8B87.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:23 -!- andreas [~andreas@pD4B9E904.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:56:31 <_3b> and possibly make sure A and B are ordered properly 00:56:34 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.92.164] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 00:56:56 oh dear, more functions to look up 00:57:50 doesn't alexandria already have clamp? 00:58:03 it does indeed 00:58:18 <_3b> yeah, letting someone else implement it would be even better :) 00:58:22 what's clamp? 00:59:16 oh, wait, nvm 01:00:21 but why call it clamp? 01:00:51 Because it clamps a given value between two limits? 01:01:10 i've always called that clipping :/ 01:02:21 compromise, call it climping 01:02:38 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:40 best of both worlds 01:02:41 ... I've heard it called clipping in an audio context, and clamping in some other contexts... 01:02:43 -!- tcleval [~daniel@187.114.115.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:02:53 <_3b> probably better to use sdl:draw-box rather than drawing by pixel in render-cell 01:04:04 *nyef* shudders at the thought of doing /anything/ in a tight loop on a pixel-by-pixel basis. 01:04:08 <_3b> possibly pass X and Y to render-cell as cell coords rather tha pixel coords 01:05:11 i honestly thought doing draw-box in a tight loop would be worse than using draw-pixel 01:05:24 <_3b> pixel-by-pixel isn't the problem, pixel-by-pixel through a function call through some random API is the problem :) 01:05:50 explain? 01:05:57 <_3b> caelan: why would you assume SDL implemented it worse than you did? 01:06:13 <_3b> (the pixel-by-pixel stuff was responding to nyef) 01:06:27 Yeah, that's the problem. 01:06:34 -!- PTSWorldFriend [~PTSWorldF@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:06:39 i don't have 2d acceleration, so i figured sdl:draw-pixel wouldn't have any advantage over sdl:draw-pixel 01:06:41 Pixel-by-pixel is fine when it's only a memory reference or two per pixel. 01:06:58 You may also want to think about whether you really want to be using single floats. 01:07:01 caelan: I fail to interpret that. 01:07:08 <_3b> caelan: function call overhead per pixel adds up quickly 01:07:12 But you pay /horribly/ for function calls. 01:07:31 s/sdl:draw-pixel/sdl:draw-box/ 01:07:41 <_3b> caelan: and even without hardware acceleration, the library probably has more optimization than writing it by hand 01:07:49 -!- Anarch [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:08:00 <_3b> (and if it doesn't, you should find a better library :) 01:08:18 my original code actually drew pixels individually instead of a number at a time 01:08:49 and i really don't see how much more optimized that can get :) 01:08:49 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 01:09:07 <_3b> well, to start with you can skip a function call for every pixel 01:09:09 each pixel corresponded to a single cell 01:09:30 <_3b> well, if you are drawing 1 pixel cells, it doesn't matter 01:09:58 <_3b> to make that faster, you would want to draw into a typed array, then send that all at once to the dreawing API 01:10:04 At that point, see if you can get a direct pointer to a texture buffer, which should let you... Yeah, that. 01:10:14 <_3b> (or use opengl or something) 01:10:20 You want to get your per-pixel operations down to a single memory reference or similar. 01:10:36 i'm just beginning to even learn how to use sdl, let alone lispbuilder-sdl 01:10:47 You'd still lose with OpenGL if you were doing something this... this... Words fail me. 01:11:05 <_3b> nyef: yeah, i mean doing it /all/ in gl :) 01:11:23 is my code that horrible? 01:11:45 caelan: only if it's too slow for what you're doing. 01:11:56 which it wasn't 01:12:02 <_3b> i think last time i did cellular automata, i was doing something like 8k x 8k cells with dumb brute force, averaged down to ~4k to fit on 2 monitors, running at real time :) 01:12:03 nyef is not paying your electricity bills. 01:12:06 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:07 _3b: Ah. So, shaders? 01:13:12 <_3b> nyef: yep 01:13:13 caelan: it's only horrible if you post some blog entry like "Lisp is ok for toys, but when I did serious stuff it was way too slow. Now I'm a happy Java user!" 01:13:44 no way in hell i'd do that, i've used java 01:13:49 phew 01:14:05 caelan: No, words fail me because I'm not sure how to describe the scenario. 01:14:15 i actually started off writing this in java, and lost heart a hundred lines in 01:16:02 oh dear, something broke it 01:17:40 time to revert version 01:18:48 nyef: what do you mean by that? 01:19:29 That, quite literally, as opposed to figuratively, words fail me? 01:20:06 Or that a full function-call per pixel is a /really/ bad idea on any platform. 01:20:41 (A possible exception can be made for platforms on which function-calling is obscenely cheap, such as Forth or assembler.) 01:20:43 that words fail you; though i suppose it's silly to ask for a precise enumeration of what you can't describe 01:22:12 <_3b> if you only have T or NIL in the cells, i'd probably use COUNT T rather than COUNT-IF #'IDENTITY 01:23:02 or at least (- (length seq) (count nil seq)) 01:23:20 <_3b> don't think i'd quite go that far 01:23:58 <_3b> but since there are only 2 options, possibly count NIL and adjusting the constants it compares against 01:24:14 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:24:34 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.163.115] has joined #lisp 01:24:47 notice that the code doesn't care what the cells are 01:25:08 in the client code for this bit, the cells are actually structs of reals 01:25:16 antivigilante [~antivigil@184-98-135-63.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:43 <_3b> in life.lisp APPLY-RULES ? 01:25:54 in religion.lisp 01:26:15 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:36 this was something i wrote to study the spread of a more or less abstract set of personal characteristics 01:26:56 the life implementation was just for the heck of it 01:28:04 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 01:29:19 am i just trying to make this too abstract to run efficiently? 01:30:19 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:31:18 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bye bye] 01:34:18 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:34:21 tcleval [~funnyguy@187.114.115.114] has joined #lisp 01:35:19 huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 01:37:40 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:20 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:44:10 -!- caelan [~caelan@75-139-77-11.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:44:32 -!- huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:45:10 huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 01:45:59 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-76-24-31-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 01:47:29 hjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 01:50:03 morning 01:50:22 hi hjs 01:55:05 -!- hjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:55:38 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.1.39.125] has joined #lisp 01:56:43 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:21 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-40-37.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:01:15 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:01:26 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-30-125.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:02:23 -!- jpd [~jpd@pine.noqsi.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:03:55 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-162-86.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:18 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:55 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:11:44 is there a way to do vector-push(-extend) with LOOP instead of just collecting into a list? 02:12:23 (loop ... do (v-p-e ...)) 02:12:32 yeah 02:12:53 I just thought this wasn't sufficient "accumulation::= list-accumulation | numeric-accumulation" 02:13:10 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:13:29 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 02:17:31 luxurious .. 02:18:43 How goes the ABCL testing? 02:19:12 I haven't touched abcl for 3-4 days. anything pressing? 02:19:17 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:19:36 i need to write unit tests for the mop impl first, since that needs immediate attn 02:20:08 i am back on sbcl at the moment, to get something done quickly for work 02:22:12 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Quit: Kerrick] 02:23:04 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:00 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:27:07 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-115-252.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:27:27 I really need to get a test scheme going for all CLs, instead of just SBCL. I need to find out what the equivalent of --disable-debugger is all around. 02:27:42 That way I wouldn't have to ask people to set up a wonky test scheme for me. 02:28:54 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:56 for abcl, closest think I can see for disabling the debugger is --batch 02:33:08 but the jvm has a nice habit of dying with a pretty stack-trace anyway (10 pages in all, when you try to boot abcl on Android :-) 02:33:24 BrianRice-mb [~briantric@75-94-47-26.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:32 *Xach* counts ~20 new ql setups today 02:33:55 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:34:35 fusss: lol. DVM is horrible with dynamic languages, though 02:34:46 can you get the ql setup proc to give you the MAC address so that you can plug it into google's MAC addr to physical address routine and find out where the ql users are? :) 02:34:53 -!- hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-117-136.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:54 though I heard that JVM doesn't have GC for code objects as well 02:35:21 hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-117-136.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:22 slyrus_: no, but i can get the airport code of where it thinks people are, network-wise... 02:35:24 slyrus_: AFAIK they don't actually use MAC addresses because they don't survive long enough... 02:35:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:35:58 6 JFK, 3 FRA, 3 EWR, 2 AMS, and a handful of others... 02:35:59 Xach: add a couch-clause to LICENSE, sort of like the beer clause 02:36:12 SFO! 02:36:18 IAD 02:36:19 no SFOs today 02:36:22 1 IAD 02:36:27 that's me :-) 02:36:38 slacker hipsters were probably off getting coffee on their scooters 02:37:03 slyrus_ fixed-speed scooters 02:37:06 s/scooters/mopeds and fixies/ 02:37:09 heh 02:38:40 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-178-106.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:41:14 -!- hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-117-136.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:43:04 hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-117-136.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:16 nowl [~nowl@c-66-30-78-234.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:24 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 02:48:23 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f726637.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:48:29 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f726709.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:54 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 02:54:25 dreish_ [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 02:56:23 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:57:36 Anyone know of a library that provides url-encode and url-decode type functions? 02:57:43 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-162-86.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:08 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:58:11 austinh: puri? 02:58:21 minion: tell me about puri 02:58:22 fusss: please look at puri: puri, Portable Universal Resource Identifier, is a networking library for parsing and representing URIs. http://www.cliki.net/puri 02:58:35 err, that's probably not what you mean 02:59:02 you wanna sanitize data for URLs? 02:59:05 yes 02:59:09 in and out 02:59:26 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-66-30-78-234.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:59:29 *p_l|uni* ponders adding a line about consultants giving an extra charge for each "WTF!?" while working on "legacy" code -- all for his business pitch 02:59:34 I usually see it when I load hunchentoot, hold on 02:59:41 I see Edi has one of each in Hunchentoot and Drakma, but I'd rather not cherry pick. 03:00:57 puri is low on documentation; I've had trouble figuring out what any of it does. 03:01:13 austinh: I'd say go with cherry picking Edi's code, cause he writes good one. OTOH, url-en/decode is rarely seen outside of HTTP stack 03:01:22 austinh: trivial-http has escape-url-query 03:02:15 (puri:parse-uri "http://google.com") 03:02:36 it has a convenience DWIM constructor and doesn't force you to split components by hand 03:02:38 LiamH [~liam@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:08 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:03:28 rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 03:03:43 fusss: I think he needs a uurlencoded data parser and constructor, not URI related stuff 03:04:23 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 03:04:26 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:04:28 it's slightly different from URI encoding 03:04:49 (trivial-http:escape-url-query "http://google.com?HEllo+World") => "http%3A%2F%2Fgoogle.com%3FHEllo%2BWorld" 03:04:52 ah, the correct mime type is application/x-www-form-urlencoded 03:05:03 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 03:05:12 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 03:05:18 fusss: it will cause issues, for example the difference in handling spaces 03:05:43 (urlencoded changes #\Space to #\+, not "%20" etc.) 03:06:01 -!- hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-117-136.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:04 no kidding 03:06:19 I think I should just avoid the issue altogether. I was looking for a quick temporary fix, so that I didn't have to immediately branch off and solve a new problem. 03:06:37 thanks, though 03:06:48 austinh: what were you trying to solve? 03:07:12 austinh: would you happen to have a win32 build of tamarin? 03:07:27 that would save me a lot of hustle dicking with VC++ Express 03:07:28 p_l|uni: Using UTF-8 strings as document id's for a CouchDB. 03:07:37 fusss: No, sorry. No windows here. 03:07:56 oh 03:08:35 But, now I just need to come up with a scheme for document id's that aren't the names of the items (which I planned on doing later, anyway). 03:08:55 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.132] has joined #lisp 03:09:26 austinh: have you considered UUID? 03:09:31 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:09:55 p_l|uni: I have. 03:10:17 austinh: I wrote a system that processes 20k documents a day, sha512hex worked just fine, but we're not iffy about duplication since everything is purged monthly anyway 03:10:22 fusss: btw, why play with VC++ Express, if you can just download the SDK (the last VC++ "Express" version I worked with didn't include SDK by default... good thing I only use the advanced stuff) 03:11:04 fusss: 20k documents per day is way too small amount unless you are actually submitting specifically crafted documents... 03:11:11 fusss: I considered a hash, too, but there's an issue where I might rename something, and then name something else with the original name, and it no longer sounded like a good choice. 03:11:35 austinh: id should be assigned once-only and unchangeable 03:11:44 -!- rukowen [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has left #lisp 03:11:45 p_l|uni: No doubt. 03:12:01 Of course, some esteemed people disagree. 03:12:05 hash would work fine if you are addressing by content, since then the content has changed 03:12:25 aidalgol [~user@118.148.131.14] has joined #lisp 03:12:31 if you need to assign it once then modify, go with UUIDs and add search on other attributes :) 03:12:41 p_l|uni: Doesn't that contradict what you just said. We're talking about the hash being the id. 03:12:58 austinh: think it through, when it all fails, there is always this http://www.dardoria.net/software/uuid.html 03:13:16 depends on ironclad 03:13:56 I'm just in the middle of testing a switch from Postgres to CouchDB and trying to do it incrementally. 03:14:01 austinh: UUID != hash 03:14:23 UUIDs *use* hashes in generation of the number, but they are not hashes 03:14:40 p_l|uni: The only reason we were talking about hashes was for the id. I know it's not the same as a UUID. Two conversations got mixed up, I think. 03:15:10 yeah, I think you missed part of the line where I suggested UUIDs for the second time :) 03:15:27 austinh: also, what are you storing in CouchDB? 03:15:36 Data! 03:15:49 sorry 03:15:51 p_l|uni: you also missed the part above where I was aware of both URL encoders. but I didn't mind the extra advice ;-) 03:16:29 Use identifiers that are divided into author and id. 03:16:29 (uuid:make-v4-uuid) ==> A0BB421E-7232-4B07-AC5F-C53BF73DA7CD 03:16:34 fusss: :P 03:16:47 brb, munchies 03:16:48 Part of the problem is that I'm still in the middle of defining the data. 03:16:50 Then you can remap all of the ids of a given author from a given source when there is an author collision. 03:16:54 fusss: I think I misunderstood you at that point 03:17:14 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:17:39 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:17:48 *austinh* admits conflating UUID and UID 03:17:52 *fusss* makes sure to test with non-random data during development stages. 03:18:27 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.182.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:18:39 -!- aidalgol [~user@118.148.131.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:03 p_l|uni: I'm not sure that I can describe the data succinctly. It's for a game and there are several hierarchies and connections. 03:20:36 Good morning everyone! 03:21:05 *p_l|uni* hears connections and hierarchies, recalls RDF and OWL, then turns into ball and huddles in the corner 03:21:44 *austinh* reads up on UUIDs 03:22:24 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:23:03 aidalgol [~user@118.148.131.14] has joined #lisp 03:24:05 kclifton [~kclifton@S010600123ff34d7d.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:42 Anyone here have ECL running smoothly on Debian squeeze? 03:26:16 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:28:07 a5h15h [~a5h15h@unaffiliated/a5h15h] has joined #lisp 03:28:30 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:10 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:29:11 -!- aidalgol [~user@118.148.131.14] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:29:51 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@187.114.115.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:31:09 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 03:31:10 -!- dreish_ [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish_] 03:31:53 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:07 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.1.39.125] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 03:32:57 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 03:33:30 having trouble installing "lisp in a box" on ubuntu :karmic... 03:34:14 on trying to execute... $ sh lispbox.sh...lispbox.sh: bad substitution is returned 03:34:26 on trying to execute... $ sh lispbox.sh...lispbox.sh: bad substitution... is returned 03:35:04 *p_l|uni* wonders whether we should start guiding people towards QL instead 03:35:22 *beach* thinks so 03:37:01 a5h15h: I recommend you don't use lispbox 03:37:13 *p_l|uni* has no idea if someone kept it updated at all, even 03:38:04 What is QL? 03:38:11 quicklisp 03:38:11 p_l|uni, any alternatives... 03:38:12 Zhivago: Quicklisp 03:38:36 anyone with access to the acm library? 03:38:49 i need access to a particular paper about hamiltonian paths 03:38:50 I think Lispbox has sort of been abandoned, I read a blog post about it the other day. 03:39:11 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:39:13 p_l|uni, i'm reading practical common lisp... 03:39:43 a5h15h: install Emacs from your distro, grab SBCL from http://www.sbcl.org, go to http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ and follow the instructions 03:41:10 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 03:44:09 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:45:25 p_l|uni, can clisp be used in conjunction with sbcl? 03:46:00 a5h15h: You would use SBCL instead of clisp. 03:46:09 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 03:47:01 a5: Yes, but why? 03:50:00 jpd [~jpd@pine.noqsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:51:19 Zhivago, coz i already have "CLISP" installed..so wondered would they work in conjunction? 03:52:03 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:48 a5h15h: SBCL and CLISP are two different implementations of the Common Lisp language. What is being recommended to you is to use SBCL rather than CLISP. 03:53:26 a5h15h: You would typically use a single implementation, unless your purpose is to compare aspects of different implementations. 03:54:00 beach, k 03:54:09 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:55:09 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:56:09 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 04:00:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:00:41 AndroUser [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:42 vtz [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:49 a5h15h: as the perpetrator of Lispbox, I would also recommend you not use it if it's giving you trouble. 04:04:09 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:04:18 There are a few folks who have done some work to dust off the bits but I don't think they've released anything yet. 04:05:19 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:05:32 hohoho [~hohoho@mail.trn.dis.titech.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 04:06:06 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 04:06:12 gigamonkey, thanks for advice...it seems a new release of lispbox for emacs 23.2 is in the works 04:10:58 -!- LiamH [~liam@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:12:57 a5h15h: however, even when lispbox was in its prime, setting up your own config was AFAIK recommended in long term. 04:15:02 a5h15h: What p_l|uni says is also true. 04:17:43 p_l|uni, config of what? 04:18:05 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 04:20:04 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:06 m_bohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:29 a5h15h: Emacs + SLIME + whatever scheme you used to keep track of libraries. These days we have clbuild and quicklisp, with the second quickly gaining the place of *the* system to use. 04:20:43 -!- vtz [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:20:43 -!- AndroUser [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:21:14 p_l|uni, k 04:21:37 -!- m_bohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:21:39 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:22:22 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.121.128] has joined #lisp 04:22:43 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:48 p_l|uni, fusss: For the record, based a little searching, it sounds like UUID's or left-padded sequential numbers are the best doc ids for CouchDB. 04:23:22 also, on Linux, SBCL is the first choice for CL unless you have specific reasons to use different ones (or funds for commercial - I'd do a lot for LW Enterprise :3) 04:23:31 austinh: go with UUIDs 04:24:18 -!- yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:24:56 they have some nice properties that sequential numbers don't have 04:25:28 austinh: sounds good 04:26:26 austinh: if you need to cheat, you can maintain an in-memory country, and serialize it to disk with cl-store. make sure to have your atexit callback do this as well 04:27:47 p_l|uni: Apparently, sequential numbers have some advantages on CouchDB, too: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1963632/what-is-best-practice-when-creating-document-ids-in-couchdb/1964947#1964947 04:27:50 in abcl i have the main thread of my up do the equivalent of (setf *counter* (or (restore #p"config/counter.store") 0)) and the shutdown/clean up function updates it on disk 04:28:21 p_l|uni, fusss: thanks for pointing me in the right direction 04:28:52 austinh: no problem. I am very interested to know if you have a finger in the android pie or not :-) 04:29:02 I think you should, if you're not too busy 04:29:13 *p_l|uni* has, but doesn't use Lisp (at least not CL) directly on device 04:29:26 I am absolutely fascinated with your creations and would love to see them on mobile as well 04:29:40 fusss: No, but I'm planning on getting one of those phones when my contract expires in February, and hopefully by that time I will be done with this game and looking for that kind of extension. 04:29:45 fusss: thanks! 04:29:50 p_l|uni: welcome to the club :-) 04:30:30 *p_l|uni* right now still deals with Java and lack of time, but plans to test Scala and maybe look into PreScheme like Lisp 04:30:31 austinh: i do all my android work on the emulator. bonus, the emulator is 1.5-5x slower than actual phones; so you will be pleasantly surprised when you deploy 04:31:01 in my case, it's I think ~9x slower :D 04:31:11 (hooray for crazy insanse optimization) 04:31:12 fusss: Are you using Lisp? 04:31:14 a5h15h: you can perfectly well use various implementations in conjonction. 04:31:58 austinh: not yet; learning android part time, learning abcl the other part time, and with whatever left in terms of time and attention span, trying to port abcl :-) 04:32:02 pjb: What is your definition of "in conjunction"? 04:32:03 a5h15h: for example, I typically develop my programs in clisp because it is better for interactive use (better debugger on interpreted code). But then I may compile my programs with sbcl when I need them to process big data. 04:32:29 fusss: Our current project is a browser based game, so hopefully it'll work without too much effort, but I like the idea of making a specialized app for mobile devices. 04:32:51 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.121.128] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 04:33:07 a5h15h: also, if you develop a modular system, with interfaces defined as communications thru sockets or tcp/ip streams, you can easily use one implementation for one module and another for other module (eg. using in each module implementation specific packages). 04:33:22 fusss: Ok, I meant using Lisp on Android. I don't really know anything about it, but I figured that might be why you were mentioning ABCL earlier. 04:33:44 austinh: quick question. Do flash games routinely fetch assets at run time, between levels, or is it customary to bundle everything together. Just one fat swf, or a bunch of them? 04:34:44 fusss: It depends. I think it's usually a better user experience to have everything load up front, but it depends on the project. 04:34:46 austinh: you can generate 100% of the code from Lisp, if you want, but it's a stretch. abcl, as a jar, depends on more stuff than just vanilla java runtime. so "dex", the android byte converter can't process it. 04:35:06 austinh: we will talk some other time, let's leave #lisp on topic :-) 04:35:15 sorry to have started this 04:35:31 always nice talking to you though, austinh 04:35:32 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:36 likewise 04:35:37 also, DVM is even more rubbish at dynamic languages than JVM 04:35:59 (don't generate code at runtime - it *will* implode) 04:36:13 or rather, explode :) 04:36:13 p_l|uni: would you happen to know of decent assemblers and disassemblers for dalvik? 04:36:39 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:36:45 I don't think dalvik does any jit. it's all AoT, during installation, IIRC 04:37:24 fusss: actually there's no AoT at all 04:37:37 goodnight 04:37:40 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:37:45 nite austin 04:37:54 there's only JIT in 2.x, enabled only on FroYo (Eclair has it in sources, but is built without it, as it was rather incomplete) 04:38:07 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:12 pjb, k...i was wondering on the same issue...thanks for those pointers 04:38:25 p_l|uni: the verifier is there; and I have the source open in emacs, the hand-written assembly stuff is used the Mpinterp or whatever it's called 04:38:31 what installer tries to do is generate *.odex files, which are preverified code 04:38:56 odex files are also allowed to use unportable opcodes and direct references 04:39:00 p_l|uni: i think you are right 04:39:24 odexes are compiled for a particular device instance, and not exported, right? 04:39:52 as for DVM, there are three modes - switch-based interpreter (slowest, not used except for debugging DVM), fast-interp (hand coded assembly FSM) and JIT 04:40:08 fusss: yes - they reference other files with SHA hashes 04:40:12 a5h15h: another example, on the last project, we used ecl, and asdf-install didn't work with that particular version or ecl. To install the dependencies with asdf-install, I used clisp instead, and continued working with ecl. 04:41:00 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:41:07 p_l|uni: mind if we talk private? I am very interested, but not sure if #lisp is :-) 04:41:08 fusss: for example, I have an idea for DVM where odex files use unused opcode ranges to directly call native code instead of using JNI 04:41:57 petabit [~89-137259@adsl-99-163-106-141.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:45 -!- dys` is now known as dys 04:43:58 -!- a5h15h [~a5h15h@unaffiliated/a5h15h] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:44:28 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 04:44:53 -!- petabit [~89-137259@adsl-99-163-106-141.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:46:23 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:46:36 a5h15h [~a5h15h@unaffiliated/a5h15h] has joined #lisp 04:46:59 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nwlayusqxozevvah] has joined #lisp 04:47:06 petabit [~89-137228@adsl-99-163-106-141.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:31 fusss: did you get the new url for that patch? 04:49:57 Fade: yes :-) 04:50:01 cool 04:50:04 thank you 04:50:33 n'p 04:50:37 just curious. :) 04:50:46 -!- petabit [~89-137228@adsl-99-163-106-141.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 04:50:56 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 04:51:26 *Fade* heads off to bed 04:51:32 04:52:03 quotemstr [~quotemstr@c-67-183-23-114.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:36 Is cl-graph still maintained? If not, is there an alternative? 04:53:15 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@mail.trn.dis.titech.ac.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:06 -!- SCVirus [~B234651@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:56:25 -!- rme [rme@clozure-12127D16.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 04:56:27 SCVirus [~B234651@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:43 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-1-3.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:57:34 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-87-127.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:58:34 quotemstr: nobody has started to write a replacement to cl-graph AFAIK. Since it's not maintained anymore, you can strike it out. 04:58:42 Then you wonder why there's so few lisp libraries... 04:59:10 Dammit. 04:59:13 boost::graph it is. :( 05:02:03 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-120-181.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:31 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-111-120.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:03:23 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-97-47.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:29 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:04:43 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 05:04:45 quotemstr: if you use ABCL, you can call everything ever written for java 05:04:59 At that point, I might as well use Clojure. 05:05:08 Actually... this might be a great excuse to get to know Clojure better. 05:05:22 quotemstr: clojure > C++ 05:05:47 and I envy your ability to switch languages on a whim :-) 05:05:59 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-58-71.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:30 Well, it's just a simulator. I'm trying to play with a game theory question by trying out different strategies. 05:06:48 it takes me more than 10 days to get acquainted with languages I am competent in, much less learn new ones. 05:06:53 am close to switching languages myself here, todays the nth time where ive written a functionally correct python program and the requirements are for it to run an order of magnitude or two faster 05:06:55 :( 05:08:04 quotemstr: there is no such a thing as out of the box graph libraries, at least in my experience. it's easier to write the 3 functions need for insert/delete/find, and uses lists 05:08:26 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-97-47.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:08:50 Meh. I just don't want to get stuck implementing, say, the Floyd-Warshall algorithm by hand later. 05:09:34 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.56.136] has joined #lisp 05:09:51 if you're doing anything large scale, look into Pajek 05:10:24 we used it to analyze referrals for marketing 05:10:54 not sure where game theory fits into this though 05:11:59 -!- BrianRice-mb [~briantric@75-94-47-26.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice-mb] 05:13:41 -!- a5h15h [~a5h15h@unaffiliated/a5h15h] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:14:04 quotemstr -> i am stuck in graph library land myself 05:14:14 Oh? 05:14:19 for now i am using a handrolled one in python (the thing i am trying to speed up) 05:15:01 Not. 05:15:11 Python isn't the choice of crunching. 05:15:19 :) 05:15:29 Well, with pynumeric it isn't intensely bad. 05:15:43 the numerics are pretty okay 05:15:54 and there are c based extensions for a lot of stuff 05:16:45 but right now i am stuck unrolling a recursive backtracking algo into something that uses an explicit stack 05:17:21 because function calls / recursion is pretty slow. around 4k function calls a second here on my machine 05:19:53 -!- weirdo [sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:19:57 Dawgmatix: 4k in Python, I assume 05:20:02 yes 05:20:14 weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:30 not surprising, given the extra check on each call 05:21:01 since this code is for a job application for a puzzle, i am free to move another language 05:21:17 i am just a bit wary of submitting something in lisp 05:21:42 Dawgmatix: use something that doesn't need to traverse a directory on each function call ;P 05:21:59 is that what python does? :) 05:22:00 vtz [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:00 AndroUser [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:06 -!- vtz [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:22:06 -!- AndroUser [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:22:17 (j/k: I suspect Python actually has a predefined slot for that, but CPython is still slow compared to many other languages) 05:22:23 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 05:22:44 Dawgmatix: Python afaik has only funcallable objects nowadays, which are identified by having a __call__() method 05:25:04 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:25:38 at least it got a bytecoded interpreter... 05:26:19 though I rather doubt presence of a jump table based one (at least not of a tightly coupled one, like in DVM) 05:26:28 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@S010600123ff34d7d.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 05:26:34 kclifton [~kclifton@S010600123ff34d7d.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:38 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@S010600123ff34d7d.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 05:30:46 Well, python has metaclasses as well. 05:31:03 So things like function objects have a special function object metaclass. 05:31:22 They don't have the same overhead as normal classs with a __call__ method. 05:32:01 ah. I thought so 05:36:55 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 05:39:45 -!- rme [rme@clozure-DF2BF0E7.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:39:45 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-120-181.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:40:08 araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has joined #lisp 05:40:08 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has quit [Changing host] 05:40:08 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:43:14 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-58-71.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:45:07 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:46:34 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:49:12 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.56.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:18 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:52:15 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:53:41 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:59:49 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-216-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:59:55 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-216-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:00:09 acieroid` [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has joined #lisp 06:00:35 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-223-36.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:34 -!- Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:01:48 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@178-33-42-21.kimsufi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:02:03 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.163.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:03:35 Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:17 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@184-98-135-63.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:09:17 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:09:31 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:38 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-223-36.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:10:21 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 06:12:09 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-178-176.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:18 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:14:59 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:15:11 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 06:15:11 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 06:15:11 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:18:16 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:19:26 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:20:11 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 06:22:14 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:26:54 dbrunner [~user@mail.systemhaus-brunner.de] has joined #lisp 06:27:43 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:30:38 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@c-69-181-60-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:38 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@c-69-181-60-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:30:38 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 06:31:23 hi, does anybody uses clozure cl on windows and has clsql running? 06:35:08 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:35:13 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-70-162.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:36:32 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:37:28 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 06:43:28 -!- dbrunner [~user@mail.systemhaus-brunner.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:43:53 I've got trouble with double-backq. Would someone please take a look? 06:46:00 Please see http://paste.lisp.org/+2H60 06:46:41 flip214: You want ,', 06:46:53 Ur5us [~Ur5us@121.98.212.19] has joined #lisp 06:48:54 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 06:51:00 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:55:30 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:56:25 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:13 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@96.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:58:59 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:59:21 BrandLeeJones_ [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 06:59:40 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:59:40 -!- BrandLeeJones_ is now known as BrandLeeJones 06:59:48 -!- pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:00:29 dbrunner [~user@mail.systemhaus-brunner.de] has joined #lisp 07:02:42 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B327195.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:00 ... damn, HTML5 is *weird*. I think adapting YACLML to it will be weirder than I thought o_O 07:05:18 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:06:08 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:06:17 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082A469.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:09:28 pkhuong: thank you very much, I'll try to understand why ... I thought symbol already interns, and then it's just a reference passed on? 07:10:11 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:13:02 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:14:18 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:31 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:17:22 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:19:20 flip214: `(,foo...) evaluates foo. You want the inner backquote to do something like `(foo ...). That's the ,' part. 07:21:02 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:21:08 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:21:34 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-70-162.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:22:05 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:22:30 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-70-162.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:22:31 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 07:29:43 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-70-162.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:36:34 Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:37:07 jondro [~jedrek@chello089073233006.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:41:57 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 07:42:16 I sometimes see functions starting with '%' (%foo) in source code, is this to create some sort of name space for functions that shouldn't be directly used? 07:44:49 aerique: it's a convention for "internal" functions (i.e. it might be unwise to use them directly outside of wrapper macros/functions for which they are defined etc.) 07:44:52 aerique: yes, more or less 07:47:10 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:47:24 thanks, i've had a vague idea for years but never was quite sure :) 07:47:27 -!- platypine [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:47:44 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:47:45 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47:50 a5h15h [~a5h15h@59.95.47.214] has joined #lisp 07:48:02 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:07 -!- a5h15h [~a5h15h@59.95.47.214] has quit [Changing host] 07:48:07 a5h15h [~a5h15h@unaffiliated/a5h15h] has joined #lisp 07:50:35 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 07:53:01 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 07:59:20 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:00:02 rukowen1 [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 08:02:11 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:03:06 i've installed SBCL and set up slime in emacs...i'm not getting the CL-USER> prompt though? 08:03:53 a5h15h: do you have (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in your .emacs? 08:05:29 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.140.46.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 08:05:43 a5h15: yeah, that's a "feature" that you have to switch on the CL-USER prompt. 08:06:23 pkhuong, my .emacs looks this way..http://paste.lisp.org/+2H63 08:06:46 k..let me test it... 08:07:34 I suppose you have to restart your emacs but I am not sure about that. 08:08:50 -!- andreas1 [~andreas@p579F8B87.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:09:43 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:12:49 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:13:16 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:13:39 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:17:41 -!- PascalHunger [~user@d60-65-84-128.col.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:18:08 PascalHunger [~user@65.60.128.84] has joined #lisp 08:20:24 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:20:29 I have problems getting clsql to run with my clozure cl on windows vista; someone around who has this running? 08:20:36 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:22:56 -!- rukowen1 [~thehien@113.161.72.89] has left #lisp 08:23:41 pkhuong, dbrunner, thank you... 08:24:22 -!- dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:26:01 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:27:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 08:27:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:29:44 Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:30:47 -!- a5h15h [~a5h15h@unaffiliated/a5h15h] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:33:29 If I do a (declaim (ftype (function (arg) result) foo)) is there any way to find that information back in the environment (on SBCL)? I want to figure out if a macro I made works correctly. 08:33:30 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:34:25 Hmm nevermind, I could just call the function with correct and incorrect parameters. 08:34:44 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:10 andreas [~andreas@ip-109-42-152-173.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:23 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:47 -!- andreas [~andreas@ip-109-42-152-173.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:36:54 aerique: that is likely not to check anything. 08:38:03 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-21-82-64-98-20.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:38:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:39:27 aerique: (describe 'foo) will tell you -- among other things what the system thinks it know about the type of FOO 08:39:36 aerique: just expand the macro? 08:40:03 C-d C-d C-d in slime -- a very good keystroke to remember 08:40:16 oops C-c C-d C-d 08:40:18 aerique: sb-introspect:function-derived-type (or similiarly named) is the programmatic way 08:40:38 tcr: nope 08:40:41 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:40:47 s/derived/declared/ 08:41:06 function-type works if you have #'foo 08:41:22 but not if you don't have the function object -- but just the declaration 08:41:27 nikodemus: right, describe gives me the info. stupid i didn't think of that 08:41:41 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 08:41:42 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 08:41:42 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:41:58 nikodemus: having a declaim without function definition sounds highly contrived 08:42:13 as what aerique really has 08:42:29 tcr: when debugging a macro it doesn't sound unreasonable at all :) 08:43:13 and i'd argue that C-c C-d C-d is a more productive thing for aerique to be messing around with right now than sb-introspect:function-type :) 08:43:41 one tells you all sorts of things in all sorts of situations -- the other is a rather specialized tool 08:43:42 "programmatic way" 08:43:51 let's get stuff done 08:44:09 sure. i'm just low on coffee 08:45:44 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 08:47:24 rudi_ [~rudi@mineralogix.ifi.uio.no] has joined #lisp 08:50:01 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7576ac.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:48 andreas1 [~andreas@ip-109-45-0-3.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:58 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-53-82-65-61-141.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:05 *p_l|uni* considers a 48hrs CL webapp contest... 08:53:14 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 08:56:35 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-7-167.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:57:00 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7576ac.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59:02 xan_ [~xan@211-000-133-196.jp.fiberbit.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:48 does adding extra types into coerce or "automagic" conversion for more types violate CLHS (assuming it's not one of the cases where we have an already specified "error" output for given combination) 09:05:50 andreas2 [~andreas@ip-109-42-78-150.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 09:07:36 -!- andreas1 [~andreas@ip-109-45-0-3.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:13:14 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:16:41 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-7-167.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:22:15 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:28:21 I seem to have an initial working (on SBCL) version of a (declaim (ftype ...)) shortcut: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115566 09:28:48 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:31:04 aerique: yet another!? 09:31:53 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:32:28 aerique: look at define-api.lisp in named-readtables 09:33:29 *p_l|uni* quite likes defstar 09:33:45 definitely more readable than cl-def 09:34:34 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:35:39 huwenfeng [~huwenfeng@218.107.55.253] has joined #lisp 09:37:21 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:38:43 aerique: (append '(foo) list) == (cons 'foo list) 09:39:33 aerique: i would not worry about the "name clash". this is why cl lisp a lisp2 09:40:00 (defun* (floor -> (values integer integer)) ((n real) (d real)) (cl:floor n d)) ;;; <--- an example of FLOOR defined with DEFSTAR 09:40:29 "why cl is a lisp2", even 09:41:24 afk 09:41:30 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:42:10 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 09:42:47 thanks for the comments and pointers (still was a good exercise since i rarely write macros) 09:44:14 -!- Ur5us [~Ur5us@121.98.212.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:46:10 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:46:12 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.2.85] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:47:43 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@c-67-183-23-114.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Inconceivable!] 09:49:04 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:49:12 dmurray [~dmurray@host217-34-132-33.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 09:49:15 morning 09:49:16 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:53:45 hi dmurray :) 09:54:46 whoa - v.low reading comprehension skills today! (me, that is) 09:54:54 Hold that thought... 09:54:55 -!- dmurray [~dmurray@host217-34-132-33.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 09:55:48 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.140.46.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:56:19 splittist [~John@host217-34-132-33.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:23 morning (: 09:57:03 H4ns` [~user@p579F895A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:15 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E603.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:01:29 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:03:41 -!- huwenfeng [~huwenfeng@218.107.55.253] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:05:36 phew 10:07:13 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:07:15 Xach: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/iolib-devel/2010-October/000457.html 10:09:02 serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06da93.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:04 Hello! 10:09:39 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-206-169.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:22 hi serichsen 10:10:37 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:50 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-178-176.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:10:59 fe[nl]ix: thanks 10:11:53 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.121.128] has joined #lisp 10:12:09 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:13:53 homie [~user@xdsl-195-14-198-32.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:13:54 wbooze [~user@xdsl-195-14-198-32.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:14:00 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-209-121.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:14:55 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:15:11 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:30 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:18:23 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:18:49 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 10:21:57 -!- spiaggia` is now known as spiaggia 10:22:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:24:25 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:02 G'day everyone! 10:25:42 hi spiaggia 10:26:04 fe[nl]ix: Hey. Still in Asia? 10:26:13 nope 10:26:35 Oh? Still employed, though? 10:29:55 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:34:23 antivigilante [~antivigil@184-98-135-63.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:41 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 10:37:00 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.241.159.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:37:27 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:37:29 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 10:37:43 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:38:32 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:40:47 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.164.86] has joined #lisp 10:41:00 TomJ [~tomj@89.241.159.104] has joined #lisp 10:41:20 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:43:12 -!- splittist [~John@host217-34-132-33.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Quit: time to check out] 10:47:03 rotty_ [~rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 10:49:36 urandom__ [~user@p548A47C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:30 theom3ga [~jose@84.122.7.221.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:50:40 hi 10:51:07 is there any way of applying a function to all the elements of a list without using any kind of loop? 10:52:05 (mapcar #'my-function list) 10:52:58 nikodemus: I made a new iolib release with your patch 10:53:16 -!- andreas2 [~andreas@ip-109-42-78-150.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:53:17 saw it. thank you 10:53:34 quicklisp is really turning out to be quite a shakeout 10:54:43 yeah 10:55:24 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:21 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.140.46.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 10:56:33 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@184-98-135-63.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 10:56:44 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:57:17 antivigilante [~antivigil@184-98-135-63.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:51 yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:19 i'm using clbuild to build and install some cl-lisp packages/programs like cl-weblocks 11:00:28 under 2.6.34.7-56.fc13.x86_64 11:01:23 ./clbuild install weblocks 11:01:35 runs fine, but i don't know where it put it 11:01:54 so i don't know what to use for the 2nd argument in this line: (push #p"/usr/lib/sbcl/site/cl-weblocks/" asdf:*central-registry*) 11:02:13 there is some stuff in /usr/lib/sbcl, but not weblocks 11:03:07 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.86] has joined #lisp 11:03:10 where is the weblocks system put? 11:04:40 theom3ga: Did you see the answer from nikodemus? 11:05:04 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:05:13 spiaggia, yes, thanks 11:06:19 theom3ga: Is that what you were looking for? 11:06:49 spiaggia, I'm still trying to understand how to use it. I'm a total huge noob on lisp. 11:07:02 yates: (push #p"/path/to/clbuild/systems/" asdf:*central-registry*) 11:07:23 but you might want to take a look at http://www.quicklisp.org/ as well 11:07:45 theom3ga: Like nikodemus said, if you have your list, and a function called my-function, then do (mapcar #'my-function list) 11:07:55 minion: tell theom3ga about pcl-book 11:07:55 theom3ga: direct your attention towards pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 11:08:06 bbl 11:08:17 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:08:45 great! I'll take a look at those resources 11:12:51 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-43-50.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:49 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 11:17:05 how can i fork another sbcl thread, to save an image ? 11:17:54 i already once saved an image, and booted from it, now when i try to save again i get a hangup, telling me there is already another thread running 11:18:17 homie: threads are not allowed while saving an image 11:19:14 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.164.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:21:09 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@184-98-135-63.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:27:16 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nwlayusqxozevvah] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:29:53 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-43-50.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:37:23 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:16 -!- theom3ga [~jose@84.122.7.221.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 11:45:31 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 11:47:49 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B259.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:10 carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.51] has joined #lisp 11:49:27 ok problem solved, i forgot just an ending " with sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "path" 11:49:45 -!- Intensity [k8GwccVGbN@unaffiliated/intensity] has left #lisp 11:49:58 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:57:27 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:59:37 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:55 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.140.46.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:03:18 fe[nl]ix: Any more info on the version issue? 12:04:06 sexy [~sepp2k@p548CABCF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:20 I've got a macro that returns defuns and defmacros. A function in the same file wants to use a generated macro, but gets "is being redefined as a macro when it was previously assumed to be a function." 12:07:18 Is the right way to put an eval-when around the generator-macro? or a with-compilation-unit? 12:08:47 for your case: yes 12:09:01 I use eval-when for it 12:11:18 pissednumlock: what other cases are there? 12:12:11 im a newbie so dont shoot me when I am wrong: 12:12:32 but normally when you generate functions/classes with a macro you need to do this beforehand 12:12:40 :compile :eval 12:12:53 :compile :execute 12:13:01 and what what ? 12:13:04 the third one 12:13:20 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.195.140] has joined #lisp 12:13:52 addresscode.lisp:(eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) 12:14:05 ah load 12:14:27 there is a default-order for those not ? 12:16:20 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:18:22 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:35 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@12.153.205.54] has left #lisp 12:23:31 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:51 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:32:32 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:36:16 rtoym: there was no issue to start with. I had the snapshot in my $PATH :D 12:36:53 fe[nl]ix: Haha! 12:37:10 Glad that was fixed. :-) 12:37:12 yeah. wasted ~4 hours on it 12:39:58 my weblocks isn't working: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115574 12:40:05 rtoym: btw, from now on Gentoo cmucl will have version strings like this: "20B-unicode-gentoo-r2" 12:40:51 What did they have before? And what does r2 mean? Gentoo release r2? 12:41:27 <_8david> yates: in which way is that error message unclear to you? 12:41:50 _8david: still, that is an error with weblocks 12:41:55 rtoym: before, it used to be whatever build.sh does without -v: the build date I think 12:42:13 rtoym: and -r2 means revision 2 of the build script for that release 12:42:17 _8david: i don't know where to begin to interpret it 12:42:21 several things i don't understand 12:42:25 what is a "component"? 12:42:28 _8david: the weblocks.asd file has intentionally left out loading of trivial-backtrace on SBCL 12:42:37 what does the syntax :TRIVIAL_BACKTRACE mean? 12:42:40 jdz: why is that? 12:42:56 Xach: because weblocks developers don't test weblocks 12:43:02 those rascals 12:43:03 <_8david> yates: trivial-backtrace is a Lisp library. It's not installed. It needs to be installed. 12:43:04 fe[nl]ix: Sounds good. Did you apply any changes that cmucl would want to have? 12:43:19 <_8david> I don't understand what jdz means though, so perhaps I'm the one who's confused. 12:43:26 _8david: ok, thx 12:43:50 <_8david> Obviously ASDF is looking for it, so it's not that the dependency isn't declared, right? 12:43:53 _8david: weblocks.asd has :depends-on (#-sbcl :trivial-backtrace) 12:44:21 no 12:44:23 it is a - 12:44:25 not + 12:44:32 <_8david> jdz: how is that related to the fact that hunchtoot depends on trivial-backtrace and fails to load it because it's not installed? 12:44:36 so sbcl version should not depend on it 12:45:09 rtoym: there are 3 patches at http://repo.or.cz/w/gentoo-lisp-overlay.git/tree/HEAD:/dev-lisp/cmucl/files 12:45:40 _8david: ok, i have fast-forwarded to an error with weblocks, stupid me 12:46:55 yates is in for a rough ride, though 12:47:06 i've given up on weblocks 12:47:47 especially after this message: http://groups.google.com/group/weblocks/browse_thread/thread/af6a63878d3c2f89# 12:47:53 jdz: what alternative would you recommend? 12:48:16 yates: don't know, i'll try to wrap my head around ucw 12:49:22 -!- sexy [~sepp2k@p548CABCF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:24 yates: quicklisp might make it easier to install weblocks, but it won't teach you common lisp or how weblocks is supposed to work, sorry. 12:50:36 fe[nl]ix: Thanks. Don't think I'll take the l-i-v patch, but the execstack patch should probably taken and the man-doc patch. The rest seem gentoo-specific, so they won't be taken. 12:50:44 ok 12:50:51 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:04 rtoym: wait for the execstack patch 12:51:16 fe[nl]ix: Do you actually have an alpha and mips build? 12:51:17 I'm not completely certain that it works ey 12:53:22 *yet 12:53:36 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:35 rtoym: no, but I figured that it wouldn't do any harm to apply that patch to the other archs 12:55:43 Ok. 12:56:02 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu348.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:56:12 If you have an execstack patch that you're comfortable with, send it to me. I'll apply the man-doc patch today. 12:57:06 ok 13:03:55 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:04:55 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 13:06:00 wvdschel_ [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 13:06:23 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:06:24 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.35] has joined #lisp 13:11:52 nikodemus: i've almost finished adding ccl repl support to linedit. are we still doing releases, or just relying on quicklisp? 13:13:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 13:15:27 ska` [~user@ppp-58-11-97-82.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 13:17:42 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 13:17:55 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:20:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20:40 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:20:41 jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:49 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:24:21 -!- jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:25:27 jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:25 -!- johanbev [~johanbev@44.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:28:27 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:29:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 13:30:57 nikodemus: also, it looks like interrupt-lisp (fired on C-c) returns before the SIGINT is received on ccl, which causes backend invariants to be violated. 13:31:06 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:06 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:36:45 tokenrove: we can do releases 13:37:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:37:54 on thing i'd like to do is replace uffi with cffi. lichteblau also integrated linedit (or parts thereof) into new hemlock, so some refactoring there might be worth looking at 13:38:06 but CCL repl support sounds like worth a release 13:38:17 s/on thing/one thing/ 13:38:21 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:00 cool. I was thinking that if we're going to do another release, I should take a look at what improvements can be made aside from the CCL support. 13:39:28 I didn't realize that anyone was using it anymore! 13:39:42 i'm not :) 13:40:29 but linedit has proved surpisingly robust in the face of changes. i updated it to work with modern osicat some time ago, but that's about all the maintenance it has taken 13:40:36 me neither ;-) although with quicklisp I guess it's much more accessible in those cases where I'd normally just endure a bare REPL for short tasks 13:41:12 moving to git would be good 13:41:15 agreed 13:41:25 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 13:41:49 i've done CVS -> Git history migration once, and can do it again, but i don't remember how i did it 13:41:58 and wasn't smart enough to blog about it then... 13:42:10 I'd ideally like to work on implementation support and moving to CFFI as separate branches; I was just complaining to myself about that earlier. 13:42:48 as it is, I'll commit my CCL changes once they're relatively tested, then maybe look at the CFFI migration (which should be pretty trivial, I've done it a few times now) 13:43:52 ok, i'll take a look at git migration 13:44:28 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.86] has joined #lisp 13:44:44 yeah, it might be worth it, since I wouldn't mind adding REPL support for other implementations while I'm looking at it 13:45:32 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.195.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:46:05 nikodemus: this might refresh some of your memories: http://www.newartisans.com/2008/04/diving-into-git.html 13:47:17 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:47:18 -!- gnooth [~test@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:49:45 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 13:50:57 nikodemus: also, WRT C-c/interrupts, do you still think the C solution is the best way to do that? 13:51:07 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-11-97-82.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:28 I'm temporarily using ccl::interactive-abort instead of c-interrupt until I can figure out if it would be better to wait for the signal to be delivered 13:54:43 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:29 tokenrove: what email should i just for you in the git import? 13:57:09 nikodemus: julian@cipht.net or whatever my common-lisp.net login is. 13:57:32 jsquires@clnet? 13:57:41 which one do you prefer? 13:57:57 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-40-37.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:35 the cipht.net address should be a long-term one. I'm in a stage of email address ambivalence, trying to figure out which of many should be the definitive address. 13:59:09 ok, i'll use it then 13:59:58 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has left #lisp 14:00:03 platypine [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:16 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-4-239.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:00:56 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 14:04:35 I used the teen-age-new-york example from the Hunchentoot docs, but no output from the web server. It accepts input, but gives nothing back. 14:04:37 araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has joined #lisp 14:04:37 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has quit [Changing host] 14:04:37 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:04:51 chrnybo: clisp? 14:05:11 Xach: lw5 14:05:12 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:43 Xach: Howzit feel to be the helpdesk for 300+ packages? ;) 14:06:40 Xach: 5.1.2 Linux 14:07:09 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A47C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:43 chrnybo: weird. h'toot is developed on lispworks! i was able to get it to run no problem with lw for mac, personal edition. 14:09:47 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:13:35 Xach: With a 6.0.1 console-image, (mp:initialize-multiprocessing) before the example, it worked. Something about my regular setup, then. 14:13:57 andreas [~andreas@ip-109-45-184-48.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 14:14:34 Blkt [~user@160.80.132.14] has joined #lisp 14:15:28 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:25 -!- rudi_ [~rudi@mineralogix.ifi.uio.no] has quit [Quit: rudi_] 14:19:14 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-130-146.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:23:00 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 14:23:00 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 14:23:00 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:23:14 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.195.140] has joined #lisp 14:25:02 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:25:03 -!- Blkt [~user@160.80.132.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:25:16 fe[nl]ix: The man-doc patch has been applied. 14:25:48 thanks 14:27:27 -!- platypine [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:28:30 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:28:45 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 14:29:50 hmm. telecommuting lisp job. 14:29:54 nice. 14:30:17 Except your boss refuses to call you anything but Yobbo. 14:30:17 fe[nl]ix: Why did you change the order of l-i-v? I think I did it that way to make *l-i-v* more conspicuous, leaving the more constant fasl-version/unicode thing at the end. 14:30:41 maybe that's why he needs telecommuters? :-) 14:30:51 Xach: you worked with him? 14:30:56 bitsurge [~bitsurge@66.244.232.254] has joined #lisp 14:31:22 ehu: His reputation precedes him. 14:31:29 It's our one and only Kenny Tilton! 14:31:37 absolutely true. 14:31:49 however, I met him only once. 14:31:50 rtoym: to make it more like SBCL: - 14:32:10 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:32:11 rtoym: which I like 14:32:18 and then I didn't really talk to him; in Amsterdam, when he talked about... (surprise!) Cells 14:33:05 fe[nl]ix: Do you ever make builds from snapshot releases? 14:33:31 Er, not snapshot releases, but snapshot builds. 14:33:51 rtoym: I used to, but I don't think I'll continue 14:34:26 cmucl is not in such big demand 14:34:44 Ok. I was just curious since the snapshot *l-i-v* is specified by the builder, and I think that varies quite a lot depending on who does the binary. 14:34:55 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@98.14.173.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:35:35 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:21 another error: http://paste.lisp.org/+2H6K 14:36:47 (in attempting to start weblocks) 14:36:47 yates: the actual problem is buried earlier in the transcript 14:37:22 you mean in one of the lines emitted in the repl buffer? 14:37:26 yes. 14:37:58 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:38:13 -!- bitsurge [~bitsurge@66.244.232.254] has left #lisp 14:38:23 is this it? http://paste.lisp.org/+2H6K/1 14:38:46 Yes. 14:38:53 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.195.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:38:56 hokay.... 14:39:32 timack [~tim@24.222.87.146] has joined #lisp 14:39:32 -!- timack [~tim@24.222.87.146] has quit [Client Quit] 14:39:37 doesn't weblocks require cl-who? 14:39:43 depend on? 14:40:22 yates: the problem is that parenscript started exporting a symbol that cl-who also exports, and so :use of both of them in one package will cause a conflict unless something is shadowed. 14:40:37 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:40:38 tcr: do you think it's ok to to commit this to slime head? http://dwim.hu/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=slime;a=commitdiff;h=33c45c39e9aa144c66177a5deb41719520820346 14:40:38 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:15 it adds a meaningful error message when an entry is not found, and allows delaying the command line construction trough a function 14:43:04 Xach: is the end-user supposed to be responsible for managing such problems, or is this a problem in the design/maintenance of one of the packages? 14:43:33 ska` [~user@ppp-58-11-97-82.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 14:44:11 yates: IMO, it's a design problem in parenscript and a maintenance problem in weblocks. I think the dev branch of weblocks has fixed it. 14:44:42 this isn't promising 14:44:51 i can't even get my feet wet... 14:45:13 i mean get my ice broken... 14:45:41 yates: fwiw, the quicklisp weblocks doesn't have that problem. but it might have other problems. 14:45:48 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-178-106.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:04 yates: but on the other hand, weblocks might be too much trouble in general. 14:46:10 yeah 14:46:11 for learning, anyway. 14:46:18 the mailing list seems helpful to me. 14:46:23 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:39 it's difficult for me, as a newb, to determine if i should go down the weblocks road or not... 14:47:13 someone on cliki was praising it 14:47:38 yates: If you have problems, I would try the list first. Few people here, that I know of, have tried it. 14:47:47 The people on the list use it and update it. 14:48:52 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 14:49:31 Xach: can you tell me what (if any) functionality cl-weblocks provides over HT-AJAX? 14:49:47 weblocks is the closest thing to a documented web stack for CL, though. 14:50:54 benny` [~benny@i577A7385.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:50:59 Fade: hunchentoot is surprisingly feature-ful for a lot of tasks... 14:51:10 yeah 14:51:15 yates: I don't know. For my website, I just use hunchentoot and write functions. 14:51:40 ok 14:51:41 -!- benny [~benny@i577A39D8.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:51:43 *p_l|uni* wants to try hand in hand coding beside a guy using Sinatra on wednesday (local tech meetup) 14:51:57 sinatra? 14:52:09 Fade: a very small Ruby web framework 14:52:22 Xach: How do I ask ql about where 14:52:31 the examples I had seen were kinda similar to using Hunchentoot directly 14:52:47 it sits on top of unicorn? 14:52:57 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:53:02 *stassats* boggles at macro which uses ITERATE, LOOP, and recursion at the same time 14:53:06 um... not, rack 14:53:12 Xach: How do I ask ql about where it finds Chunga locally? 14:53:16 ah 14:53:38 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:53:53 -!- wvdschel_ is now known as yukito 14:54:10 and occupies 80 lines 14:55:37 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:55:59 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-120-181.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:39 chrnybo: (describe (asdf:find-system 'chunga)) is one way 14:56:52 n2linux [~n2linux@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:32 Fade: weblocks documented? 14:59:05 only relative to everything else. 14:59:47 Fade: everything else being ucw? 15:00:06 well, i guess symbolicweb, too. 15:00:08 i'm not aware of any other continuation-based "frameworks" 15:00:13 but sybolicweb isn't finished. 15:00:42 there's also core-server 15:00:48 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:00:55 which was forked sometime ago from ucw and taken in its own direction 15:01:23 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:01:38 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B259.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:04:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:05:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:06:06 tokenrove: ok, i have the git conversion 15:06:28 i'm going to lose the history from doc and public_html and just stick them in as subdirectories, though 15:07:16 Fade: symbolicweb looks like a cross of ucw and cells 15:07:40 yeah. it's pretty interesting. 15:08:19 nikodemus: cool, point me at it. do you mind a branch naming style like "feature/ccl-repl"? 15:08:55 tokenrove: as long as master remains morally equivalent to CVS HEAD, i don't really care :) 15:08:58 or would you prefer that i push only to master, with large finished chunks? 15:09:03 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:04 ok, cool 15:09:30 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:09:53 hu.dwim.wui also has hu.dwim.computed-class (cells clone) integrated (per session computed universes are supported) 15:10:05 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:10:35 jmbr [~jmbr@96.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:11:31 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:48 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:35 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:13:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:14:43 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:43 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-152-110.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:14:43 emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:44 -!- emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:14:44 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 15:15:44 dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has joined #lisp 15:16:01 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06da93.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host 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[~bronsa@host96-10-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:15:41 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007073.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 16:16:41 -!- bitsurge_ [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: bitsurge_] 16:17:06 bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:30 srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:48 Hmm, what's the shortest & prettiest way in plain CL to take a string and reduce all consecutive occurrences of a specific character to a single occurrence? 16:20:03 something like s/xx*/x/ for #\x 16:20:18 -!- DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 16:20:33 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:20:40 Xach: (cl-pprce:regex-replace-all "xx*" "x") 16:20:46 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:20:51 not as plain as i'd like. 16:20:54 oh, in plain cl 16:21:43 -!- bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:22:41 I guess you could build a little fsm to search down the string, building up a new string as you go. 16:22:52 (with-output-to-string (str) (loop for prev-c = nil then c for c across "tttthhhiiis is a test" unless (eql prev-c c) do (princ c str))) 16:22:57 but a regex is easier. 16:23:25 I'd go with dlowe's, but v-p-e and then coerce to a simple string. 16:24:07 I imagine the string-stream uses v-p-e under the hood 16:25:07 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@184-98-135-63.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:25:43 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 16:26:01 you can do it with remove and a test that sets/unsets a flag 16:26:28 dlowe's approach is about as concise as it gets, I think. 16:26:37 tokenrove: can you? 16:26:53 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:27:31 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:27:34 antifuchs: how often do the cvs->git repos at boinkor update? 16:27:38 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 16:28:02 stassats: wouldn't (let (?) (remove char string :test (lambda (c x) (if (char-equal c x) (if ? t (progn (setf ? t) nil)) (setf ? nil))))) 16:28:15 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host96-10-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:28:29 i may be missing something (apart from work at the end of my sentence) 16:28:30 does remove have to run test sequentially? 16:28:36 ah, of course. 16:28:46 Bronsa [~bronsa@host96-10-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:28:47 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host96-10-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:28:52 dangerous assumptions. 16:28:53 well, i'm not implying it doesn't, i'm asking 16:29:20 i don't remember, and of course i should have checked, first. 16:29:59 if it did, then (let (c) (remove-if (lambda (x) (eql x (shiftf c x)) string)) would be simpler. 16:30:22 attila_lendvai: you didn't update ChangeLog in your commit 16:30:31 <_8david> (coerce (reduce (lambda (a b) (if (char= #\x a (car b)) b (cons a b))) str :from-end t :initial-value nil) 'string) 16:30:48 DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:51 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:30:52 Bronsa [~bronsa@host96-10-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:31:36 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 16:31:43 clever, but not exactly totally clear what's happening. :) 16:32:08 space-inefficient, too 16:33:03 <_8david> (also, char= doesn't -technically- allow nil as an argument) 16:33:55 stassats: I know, because it's almost more effort than the changes themselves, and the commit message tells it all. maybe I should just keep away from slime... 16:34:18 roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:34:30 attila_lendvai: it's hard to track changes that way using CVS 16:34:49 there are a dozen git clones of slime 16:34:52 i had to go to viewcvs on cl.net 16:35:11 it'd be nice if slime used git. :) 16:35:12 http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/slime.git 16:35:17 but the official repository isn't on git 16:35:28 Fade: go, try that on slime-devel... or don't... :) 16:35:34 hah 16:35:58 and most of the time i track changes on slime-devel daily changelog diff 16:36:23 s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:37:13 my cvs-fu is so weak at this point I tend to avoid interacting with it beyond getting whole repos. 16:37:17 and ChangeLog and commit entry can be the same. i'm not saying it's a great way, but that's the way it's currently done 16:38:21 if i hadn't to commit, i'd be using git 16:39:26 I'm just comitting some useful and not a bit controversial stuff to cvs from my git clone... but I stopped. consider those 4 commits as a hit and run... :) 16:39:31 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:40:52 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:40:56 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:40:57 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:42:12 the cvs||git conversation is one that has been had in the slime-devel community? 16:42:16 -!- s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:43:44 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:34 multiple times 16:46:07 -!- DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 16:46:19 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-4-239.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:47:04 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:28 thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has joined #lisp 16:59:30 -!- gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:00:29 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:00:58 for the interested, the rest of my slime patches are here: http://dwim.hu/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=slime;a=summary 17:02:23 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:03:17 gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:44 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007073.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:07:59 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:09:35 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:10:04 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:12:19 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-11-97-82.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13:13 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-55-111.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:14:39 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@96.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:16:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:17:25 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:27 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:17:33 I can't quite grasp what ash does. 17:17:45 I looked at the doc for it, but still can't get it. 17:17:46 -!- rotty_ [~rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:18:05 well, it's what's left after you burn someone 17:18:10 zc00gii: say you have an integer that has a certain pattern of bits that can represent it. 17:18:21 zc00gii: ash moves that pattern left or right by some amount 17:18:31 Xach: oh, it's a bit shift? 17:18:45 if so, I can get that easy 17:18:46 » ash performs the arithmetic shift operation on the binary representation of integer, which is treated as if it were binary. 17:19:00 zc00gii: compare (write (ash #b1110 -1) :base 2) and (write (ash #b11101 1) :base 2) 17:19:01 CL-USER> (documentation 'ash 'function) 17:19:02 "Shifts integer left by count places preserving sign. - count shifts right." 17:19:19 that was my doc 17:19:33 stassats: no need, I am well aware of bitshifts, and I abuse them a lot in C 17:19:38 zc00gii: well, get the real doc! 17:19:40 what's a right shift? 17:19:50 zc00gii: moving the pattern to the right 17:19:55 no no 17:19:56 >> 17:19:56 I mean 17:20:06 zc00gii: then you're not well aware 17:20:06 what function? 17:20:14 (ash #b1100 -1) 17:20:28 ah, so negative? thank you. 17:20:40 zc00gii: as the hyperspec says. 17:22:18 *stassats* is trying to write negative code 17:22:55 stassats: eh? 17:23:05 zc00gii: where did you get that terse doc? 17:23:10 jesus these alergies need to stop 17:23:18 Xach: sbcl's #'documentation 17:23:36 zc00gii: delete more code than add 17:23:40 zc00gii: clhs ash 17:23:51 so, the negative number of new lines 17:24:02 stassats: ah 17:24:13 zc00gii: google clhs ash 17:24:16 jweiss [~weissj@cpe-069-134-025-078.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:36 zc00gii: there you can find the description of the shift function xach refers you to. 17:24:50 or you can just press C-c C-d h 17:24:56 is partial application just overlooked in CL or could you actually write a 'partial' function? 17:25:04 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:25:06 or go to http://l1sp.org/cl/ash 17:25:23 jweiss: (lambda (x) (expt 2 x)) 17:25:39 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:51 stassats: i want to write (partial expt 2) and have it return a function of 1 arg. 17:26:18 what i showed is doing just that 17:26:46 stassats: are you serious? your lambda only solves it for expt. i want to solve it for all functions. 17:27:05 iow, a higher order function 17:27:09 i am serious, and it solves for anything 17:27:10 gz [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:04 stassats: you don't understand what i'm asking then 17:28:22 and what are you asking? 17:28:38 jweiss: (defun partial (fun &rest args) (coerce `(lambda (&rest args) (apply ,fun ,@args args)) 'function)) 17:28:50 does what stassats sais, but generically. 17:28:59 ehu thanks :) that's what i was asking for 17:29:05 untested 17:29:16 so i guess it was just overlooked in the lisp spec? seems rather important 17:29:18 jweiss: and that's what i was giving you! 17:29:20 jweiss: look at CURRY and RCURRY in alexandria 17:29:46 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:30:07 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:31:03 tcr - just googled alexandria - hasn't been released yet? 17:31:26 jweiss: you are still allowed to look. 17:31:55 Xach: my point is whether i can get this functionality in a lib or do i have to write it myself :) 17:32:22 jweiss: It is fairly safe and conservative to use alexandria. 17:32:43 but, if you just use LAMBDA you don't need to write anything at all 17:32:46 Xach: ok, so they're like google, calling things beta for years :) 17:33:13 stassats: yeah, partial is just quicker, i admit 17:33:25 lambda can do the same functionality 17:33:31 but more verbose 17:33:49 i don't know about the others, but i would frown upon curry, partial, or whatever 17:33:49 If you refuse to use unreleased Lisp software, you'll limit your choice quite severely :-) I'm afraid 17:34:08 that's ok, we frown upon you 17:34:23 i guess i'm just too "conservative" 17:34:43 -!- gz [~gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:35:28 stassats: I, too, use plain lambda nowadays.. in the early Lisp days I used curry/rcurry/conjoin/disjoin/... 17:36:01 i'm just surprised a 1-line function as useful as partial isn't part of the spec 17:36:10 you can always not use it and use lambda 17:36:22 *ehu* would use plain lambda, but doesn't have a use for it now 17:36:44 jweiss: if it's a one-liner, I'm not really convinced of its usefullness. 17:36:44 jweiss: in those days Common Lisp was considered by some "too large" as it was 17:37:01 emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:01 -!- emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:37:01 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 17:37:02 lambda may be verbose if you're trying to stuff ten of them into a single function 17:37:08 ehu: why? otherwise every program would have the same one-liner in it. 17:37:38 -!- dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:37:43 lisp is great at producing your curried function "in line" 17:38:03 look at haskell, you can write incomprehensible concise functions in one line 17:38:11 but then again, I'm not really debating the spec or the usefulness of functions like CONSTANTLY 17:38:28 ok point taken 17:39:43 <_8david> I think if you've used currying in another languages, you're likely to find it useful in Lisp, too. If you've not used functional languages (or have done so and hate them or whatever), your choice will be different. It's not about what works, it's about what works for you. 17:40:05 <_8david> Gladly, alexandria includes this stuff, so you don't have to think about it. Use it or not. 17:41:23 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:41:29 i started off last year looking at CL, went to Clojure for a while, now i'm coming back. clojure being decades newer tends to include some stuff that i thought came from CL but turns out it didn't :) 17:42:09 partial apparently is one of them. and i think compose as well 17:44:21 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 17:44:41 _8david: right, unless my goal is to write idiomatic code comprehensible by someone else 17:45:22 cl is not primarily a functional language. If it included common utilities for every paradigm it supported, it would be a lot larger then it already is ;) 17:45:59 we're talking about a language that is _the_ metaprogramming language, but doesn't include once-only or with-unique-names in the spec here. 17:46:35 *stassats* doesn't use once-only or with-unique-names 17:46:37 *ehu* heads back to printf debugging: gdb doesn't work on this machine 17:46:40 compose,conjoin, disjoin has been suggested during standardization; just very late when noone wanted to add anything anymore 17:47:16 stassats: i don't either. 17:47:18 If it was added, people would argue to death to use it 17:47:27 tcr: i would! 17:47:34 I call bullshit 17:48:26 I often use once-only/with-gensyms.. 17:48:26 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:51:04 -!- n2linux [~n2linux@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: n2linux] 17:53:00 *nyef* remembers "A tale of two ONCE-ONLYs". 17:54:35 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:48 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 17:56:38 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@20-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:56:41 dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has joined #lisp 17:57:48 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:01:05 jweiss: Clojure is often lauded in terms of coming, albeit stock, with certain functions that are trivially added to CL. I love the immutable hashtable. And I use it from CL. (Early on at least people were talking about "Atomic"/STM, which WAS interesting) 18:02:27 Modius: you use clojure functions from CL? 18:03:00 ehu: I meant, I replicated the const/tree-based hash table in CL. I'd been using compose/curried/rcurried already. 18:03:27 ah. thanks. 18:04:05 ehu: My point is saying "my god, language X has currying" is different if you were mentioning it compared with Java, where you couldn't add a useful construct of similar role. 18:04:31 PEople should distinguish "language X comes stock with feature Y" from "language X makes feature Y possible" 18:04:47 Where feature Y is function, class, object, piece of syntactic sugar, etc. 18:06:39 i do a lot of functional programming, but i tend to use a monadic style so don't find much need for curry and compose 18:07:09 dcewr`: If this is in CL, could you give me something short that describes what these means in CL terms? 18:07:14 drewc 18:07:20 drewc`: If you combine that with agents that migrate from machine to machine, would you have nomadic monads? 18:08:32 nyef: oh, i like that. I think i know what to name my distributed functional lisp :) 18:09:30 Modius: well, in short it means COMPOSE is called SEQ and functions are already curried. 18:09:54 drewc` Is there some sample code I could look at to see what this means? 18:12:07 kind of.. i suppose my unfinished tutorial for smug might serve... 18:12:38 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: time to go home] 18:12:48 Modius: http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/smug.html 18:14:08 -!- yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:14:47 the parser combinators are all curried already, and you can derive a monadic composition operator, often called SEQ from BIND. 18:18:01 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-104-173.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:59 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 18:21:08 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:35 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-104-173.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:22:48 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:23:31 -!- dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:25:46 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:27:23 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:28:09 thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has joined #lisp 18:35:55 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:37 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-13-102.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:17 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 18:40:17 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:40:23 Good evening everyone! 18:42:23 dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has joined #lisp 18:44:35 Hello beach. 18:45:00 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 18:45:07 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:46:28 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:47:03 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.135] has joined #lisp 18:50:07 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:39 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.121.128] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 18:53:33 phrixos [~user@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has joined #lisp 18:54:43 afternoon 18:55:49 hello phrixos 18:56:26 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:56:37 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:56 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:59:24 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has left #lisp 19:00:54 bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:17 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:01:39 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:57 drewc`: Nice tutorial, I think I finally begin to understand what monads are. 19:02:05 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host96-10-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:03:30 nyef: monads for programmers are just a design pattern with nifty syntax. 19:04:52 nyef: I just joined the channel, can you link it? 19:05:48 http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/smug.html 19:06:12 thanks 19:06:15 x3nU [xenu@gateway/shell/sundance.i-rpg.net/x-ajhkefserrnburte] has joined #lisp 19:09:12 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 19:10:34 -!- x3nU [xenu@gateway/shell/sundance.i-rpg.net/x-ajhkefserrnburte] has left #lisp 19:11:03 I think I'm going to write a lisp in common lisp 19:11:11 my idea is everything has a type 19:11:21 and objects have the type of the objects class 19:11:32 How interesting! 19:11:33 and most functions will be methods 19:11:34 sounds like common lisp 19:11:47 such as length, +, -, /, *, and many other things 19:11:49 zc00gii: what will you call your lisp? 19:11:54 Xach: dunno 19:12:02 I may write it in ooc or common lisp 19:12:05 dunno really. 19:12:25 Well, a good name is pretty important. 19:12:25 It has always bothered me that most standard functions aren't generic 19:12:26 another option is not to write it 19:12:41 drdo: yes, I've always hated that 19:12:46 especially length 19:12:59 zc00gii: i've been thinking a lot about it lately 19:13:04 in SBCL, it is. 19:13:06 length is generic if you use extensible-sequences 19:13:08 nyef: the second half of the tutorial, not yet written, derives the parser monad from other monads 19:13:31 like, instead of addign a method for length, you must write a method just for that class of a different name. 19:13:32 zc00gii: what ideas do you have about how to do it? 19:13:40 drdo: well 19:13:44 if in common lisp 19:14:19 so you write methods for sb-sequence:length 19:14:25 nyef: the paper i plagiarized has the second half, if you can read code written in 'gopher' 19:14:35 it will basically have a eval function until I make some repl. 19:14:44 but, I'm thinking about writing it in ooc 19:15:01 zc00gii: i'm not talking about implementation details, but how would your language be? 19:15:05 Fair enough. But the initial notion of what the heck a monad is hasn't completely settled in yet, so I'll skip that for now. 19:15:08 so it can be a cover from a CString, and have methods such as cdr() car() and eval() 19:15:16 drdo: what do you mean? 19:15:20 need to think about it 19:15:54 I've been thinking about it lately and i haven't really come up with an answer i'm satisfied with 19:16:08 if in common lisp, it literally will most likely be a more functional version of http://yoyodawgdawg.com/pics/yo-dawg-lisp.jpg 19:16:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:16:37 oh! and most importantly 19:16:43 #'= will be a method 19:16:47 you can extend common lisp without writing an evaluator 19:17:13 stassats: how can i extend MAP for example? 19:17:16 it's always pissed me off that we have a bunch like #'string= #'list= #'vector= etc 19:17:19 so you want to make a typed Lisp that has a Lisp-influenced language as it's type/kind/etc. language? 19:17:21 drdo: by writing your own 19:17:35 zc00gii: everything you have mentioned either is already a part of common lisp, or can be trivially made as a package 19:17:40 stassats: .... 19:17:46 drewc`: so? 19:17:55 drewc`: I like the sound of writing a lisp. 19:17:59 *Fade* scratches his head 19:18:03 are you doing it for fun or doing it to be productive? 19:18:09 if for fun, have fun. 19:18:15 zc00gii: also, you do understand that you still need string= even if you have a generic equivalence operator 19:18:21 if to be productive, not sure you're doing so 19:18:28 it will really just be the start of a language until I(with someone else) write it in assembly to compile, then bootstrap it. 19:18:36 drewc`: yes. 19:18:40 There's some stuff that bugs me with common lisp, but unfortunately i haven't really come up with good solutions 19:18:52 zc00gii: i don't believe this will ever happen 19:18:56 ah, the paul graham style of language design 19:18:56 drdo: or alternatively, you can have a keyword with like, :type 19:19:26 well, toy lisps are a right of passage, so i'll just sit back in smug silence :P 19:19:35 heh 19:19:45 greenspun away. 19:19:46 rite* 19:19:54 drewc`: so you believe that common lisp is the ultimate language that absolutely can't be improved? 19:20:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:20:18 drdo: that's my biggest pet peave of common lisp 19:20:19 drdo: what kind of stupid question is that? 19:20:20 i don't think anybody believes that. it's definitely good enough for rock and roll, though. 19:20:31 so many people have accepted it, it has no chance to evolve 19:20:38 drewc`: it was to match your stupid comment 19:20:44 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:20:49 gack 19:21:18 Fade: it is no doubt very useful 19:21:24 drdo: toy lisps being a rite of passage is a stupid comment? are you new? 19:21:34 But i don't see a problem with people comming up with ideas to improve 19:21:55 *Fade* points to cltl3 19:22:28 drdo: i see a problem with people who don't know what they're talking about coming with bad ideas 19:22:30 those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it 19:22:53 before improving lisp, one needs to master it 19:23:18 drewc`: In 5.8.1, where does the "jkl" come from? 19:23:33 zc00gii: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html <--- why #'= is not generic and that's a good thing 19:24:18 nyef: copy/paste error 19:24:33 -!- bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: bitsurge] 19:24:39 the input string should have the jkl at the end. 19:24:54 Mmm. That's what I thought. 19:24:59 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:25:14 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:25:27 *drewc`* fixes it in the source 19:25:40 drewc`: I don't agree with the argument on COPY 19:26:06 drewc`: You could define proper types for alists and trees 19:26:21 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:05 drdo: how? 19:28:22 (defclass alist ...)! 19:28:33 Something like that, yes 19:28:35 alist-cons, tree-cons, list-cons, standalone-cons 19:28:55 dlowe: or just define a generic cons 19:29:03 of course, then you lose that flexibility of using a cons for everything 19:29:37 my lolirony detector just went off. 19:29:55 it boggles 19:29:57 What would be the problem with this? 19:30:39 doesn't really appeal to me 19:30:55 I'm genuinely interested, maybe i'm overlooking something 19:31:24 dlowe: why? 19:31:36 drdo: probably. get to work mastering lisp. 19:32:21 improving something that has been evolving for as long as lisp has is a non-trivial task. 19:32:35 if you have ideas, by all means, implement them. 19:32:39 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:32:45 the excercise will be enlightening. 19:32:46 using conses for literally everything is a bad thing, but using them for building lists is a good thing 19:32:52 Fade: I'm not claiming it is 19:33:26 drdo: you shouldn't, however, be surprised by the level of skepticism. ;) 19:33:41 conservatism! 19:33:55 #lisp tea party 19:33:56 stassats: maybe ropes, finger trees or vectors would work better. 19:33:59 Fade: I might be overlooking stuff, and i would really like to be shown why things are the way they are 19:34:02 stassats: honestly, the 'solution' is either interface-passing style or something like mikel evins's AS 19:34:07 i've been programming a long time in a lot of different languages and so far, CL has the lowest impedance mismatch of any environment I've worked in. 19:34:12 francogrex [~user@109.130.69.59] has joined #lisp 19:34:16 *stassats* sips his tea 19:34:29 What bugs me is that most standard stuff feels special 19:34:31 that is to say (copy list) or (copy list) 19:35:03 which is essentially what kmp is saying, only he uses 'intentional type' in place of interface 19:35:27 might as well use an eql specializer, then 19:35:28 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:36:12 dlowe: interfaces can inherit interfaces 19:36:40 *drewc`* uses inheritance to implement parameterized interfaces like monad transformers 19:37:17 *drewc`* is not sure this is the best way to do it, but it's working so far 19:37:48 TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:38:13 -!- drewc` is now known as drewc 19:40:51 but yeah, eql specializers is the simple way... the precedent set by MAP is to pass the return type as the first argument, and one should always look to 'how is it currently done' first, in order to understand why it was done this way :P 19:42:23 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: 'caught exception'] 19:43:47 -!- konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:44:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:44:44 AS is the other choice that i've seen discussed : (copy (AS 'alist list)) 19:45:00 i haven't figured out a clean way to do monads with AS, but i suspect i'm missing something. 19:48:38 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 19:48:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 19:48:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:50:13 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.72.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:50:13 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-152-110.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:51:35 drdo` [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:51:47 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.180.126] has joined #lisp 19:52:25 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:25 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:52:25 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 19:52:44 *stassats* is lost in circular dependencies on definitions in different files 19:53:54 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:54:44 stassats: Once I wrote the algo to detect circles in graphs. Do you want it? 19:55:36 I was agreably surprized by the speed of current computers, this algo not being optimized at all, while I processed graphs between 1000 and 10,000 nodes... 19:55:43 drewc: it's also similar to presentation types in CLIM 19:55:54 LentilDave_ [4ace269a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.206.38.154] has joined #lisp 19:56:08 you usually specify the ptype explicitly and it is orthogonal to the parameter's type 19:57:14 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.195.135] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:02 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:59:49 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.177.24] has joined #lisp 20:02:37 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 20:04:18 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.177.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:06:53 I'm searching for a practical "self-optimizing" programming platform. One that can logically model it's own internal processes and rewrite it's own code base. Java's JChord http://code.google.com/p/jchord/ demonstrates the core concept... but wasn't LISP concieved for this purpose? Can someone suggest an open source LISP project equivalent to JChord? 20:07:49 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-43-50.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:19 LentilDave_: I don't understand what jchord does 20:09:28 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 20:09:28 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.157.26] has joined #lisp 20:10:05 LentilDave_: If what you want is to be able to rewrite the live image as it runs then lisp or smalltalk, among others, will do you good. 20:10:47 JChord primarily uses Datalog queries to automatically find race conditions in Java threads. 20:11:24 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:12:22 LentilDave_: this means nothing to me. 20:12:24 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:12:41 caelan [~caelan@adsl-71-176-230.gsp.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:00 the Java bytecode is analyzed using bdd (binary decision diagram) so it can modeled logically... is this not similar sounding to anything in LISP? 20:13:04 you want something that sits and watches your lisp image and rewrites it when it goes funky? 20:13:05 LentilDave_: well, the main problem with bare CL, is that function-lambda-expression is not required to return anything, and often implementation drop the source of functions once compiled. So you will have to book-keep it yourself to be able to do the introspection you want. (it's easy have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/). 20:13:40 LentilDave_: or you could analyze the binary code. In that case you will have an easier life with clisp which has a nice lisp-oriented VM. 20:13:53 (than trying to analyse x86 or whatever processor you're running on). 20:14:20 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:16:14 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 20:16:14 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-43-50.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it] 20:17:10 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-43-50.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:15 deego [~user@74.255.63.136] has joined #lisp 20:18:22 -!- deego [~user@74.255.63.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:14 LentilDave_: you might want to look at Maude language. 20:19:19 brilliant, pjb, thank you. 20:19:43 (it's based on rewriting logic and has powerful introspection capabilities) 20:22:33 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-130-146.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:23:17 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.69.59] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:18 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:24:27 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:12 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-erwuyzwhknegizty] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:59 urandom__ [~user@p548A4427.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:54 zvrba: Maude may be exactly what I'm looking for... do you know if it has a logical model of it's own runtime execution? 20:35:20 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:35:51 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012365.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:09 hi 20:38:03 LentilDave_: yes, it does. it's based on rewriting logic. 20:38:09 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:18 many maude constructs are written in maude itself. 20:38:33 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:38:58 zvrba: brilliant, thank you 20:39:29 yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:02 Xach: is it weblocks I should update, cl-who, or parenscript? 20:40:20 -!- LentilDave_ [4ace269a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.206.38.154] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:41:12 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:15 i would like to stick with clbuild unless there is a compelling reason to switch to quicklisp 20:42:26 francogrex [~user@109.130.69.59] has joined #lisp 20:42:54 konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has joined #lisp 20:45:37 How can I configure slime or swank so that *print-length* be nil and it would print all the data? 20:45:51 that is, in sldb 20:47:03 davazp [~user@201.Red-88-6-206.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:31 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:54 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:53:43 mattrepl [~mattrepl@adsl-76-201-168-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:52 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:57:34 -!- caelan [~caelan@adsl-71-176-230.gsp.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:00:25 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.69.59] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:28 -!- konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:35 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:00:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:03:34 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:03:57 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 21:06:18 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:07:02 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:13:28 -!- CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:17:21 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 21:19:19 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.125.84] has left #lisp 21:19:39 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:31 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:02 yates: I think you might have to go backwards with parenscript 21:32:52 yates: quicklisp works pretty well on systems where you don't have git, svn, cvs, bash, etc. and when you want to have a set of projects that have been slightly tested together. 21:33:53 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:33:58 drdo` [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:35:07 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:36:15 johanbev [~johanbev@44.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:27 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 21:38:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:42:29 -!- dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:42:52 dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has joined #lisp 21:43:48 -!- phrixos [~user@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:45:43 *attila_lendvai* cries out because of the ancient foolish tradition of storing code in flat text and then even expecting a useful VCS based on line-diffing... 21:46:01 vrt2 [~vert2@core.elitter.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:45 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:47:48 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas11-montrealak-1177756539.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:57 -!- vrt2 [~vert2@core.elitter.net] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 21:48:38 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:55 vrt [~vert2@core.elitter.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:22 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:26 attila_lendvai: My I suggest to improve on my ibcl? ;-) 21:53:29 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:44 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:54:05 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B259.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:04 pjb: at a quick glance this is not the way I'd go... we made a closed source editor at intentsoft in csharp, but that's not the way I'd go either... :) 21:56:24 but with very modest effort we had a structural diff and versioning that was properly dealing with moved nodes (identities), etc... and it was language neutral. 21:56:39 You'd want to store the structure of the code instead of the characters? 21:56:42 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-242-232.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 21:57:13 But that's what lisp sexps are about. Granted, we should avoid comment and other funny reader macros. 21:58:40 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-1-3.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:59:44 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:02:28 pjb: lisp sexps are not good at all when it comes to general code storage... in short: because of the positional addressing you have no easy way to store extra annotation-like infromation without disturbing the data already there. e.g. storing comment in a way that the compiler will ignore it without understanding what it is... 22:03:07 attila_lendvai: so, XML. At least you can use attributes to store meta data here... :-) 22:03:26 we had many features that were annotating the data in numerous different ways 22:03:32 Well, you could still use sexps, only not the source sexp. An annotated sexp. 22:03:34 heh, don't get me started! :) 22:03:38 timack [~tim@hlfx64-2a-231.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 22:04:51 sure, if you go to a plist-like structure... but then why use a singly linked list for storing a hastable. and also note that what matters is the API, and on sexp's people mean something that is accessed as a singly linket list. 22:05:10 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo_] 22:06:57 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@c-67-180-8-255.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:01 attila_lendvai: well, we're talking about the serialization format here. Even with a binary file you'd have to serialize, unless you're saving the whole image. 22:07:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:08:19 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 22:09:16 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:09:30 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx64-2a-231.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:09:32 serialization is also an issue, but far less interesting and defining than the API used to access the data 22:09:43 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:26 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@adsl-76-201-168-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:10:26 -!- mattrepl_ is now known as mattrepl 22:15:02 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:16:29 -!- roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 22:16:44 -!- SCVirus [~B234651@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:57 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 22:22:13 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 22:22:51 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25:58 -!- jweiss [~weissj@cpe-069-134-025-078.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:26:37 jweiss [~weissj@cpe-069-134-025-078.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:01 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B259.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:27:02 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:09 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:32:09 Xach: ok, well that's good to know. i don't have anything against quicklisp, it's just that i've already used cbuild to obtain sbcl and several other packages and it works pretty good. besides, this is linux (2.6.34.7-56.fc13.x86_64) and i have all the vc clients i need 22:32:35 phrixos [~user@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:33:03 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:33:11 yates: sure. if it works, stick with it. 22:33:52 until now.. 22:34:27 does anyone know if there is a way to specify to clbuild which version of a package to obtain and install? 22:34:41 e.g., parenscript? 22:35:20 i believe i read that by default it installs the latest stable 22:35:41 i think that's the normal mode of operation. 22:35:45 -!- vrt [~vert2@core.elitter.net] has left #lisp 22:36:24 *redline6561* got excited when he found a ql bug earlier today... 22:36:33 *redline6561* but then discovered it had already been fixed. :P 22:37:09 which? 22:37:34 The casing bug fixed by rebinding *print-case* in a let. 22:37:41 ah 22:37:54 sorry about that. you'll find more, i'm sure! 22:38:04 Yep. At any rate, congrats Xach. So far ql is awesome! 22:38:40 Is there a chance of being able to build implementations with it at some point like clbuild? 22:39:05 not on my short list, but you never know. 22:39:38 Maybe if the implementation can be built entirely from a single lisp instance? 22:45:08 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.157.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:45:23 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012365.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:46:14 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:48:02 ther's some work towards "qlbuild", iirc 22:49:09 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:18 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-140-231.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:49:30 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-140-231.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:41 -!- dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:08 *p_l|uni* meanwhile ponders making fun of his coursework project and prototyping the whole thing in a week with lisp 22:52:08 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-8-255.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:52:25 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-209-121.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 22:52:40 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:50 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-242-232.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:55:25 dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has joined #lisp 22:55:44 wedgeV [~wedge@rrcs-24-103-21-79.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:40 -!- jweiss [~weissj@cpe-069-134-025-078.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:57:44 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@rrcs-24-103-21-79.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:46 *Xach* has a daydream about a 2mb "quicklisp" multi-platform executable 22:58:09 -!- TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:39 ... on ABCL? 22:59:42 7,8M 2010-09-27 20:37 abcl.jar 22:59:47 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.241.159.104] has left #lisp 22:59:51 cmdrk [~comradek@WS1-DSL-74-83-33-212.fuse.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:51 slightly larger 23:00:03 Xach: maybe not multiplatform... but I already mentioned the idea of dumped clisp images that can configure and run quicklisp 23:01:54 LiamH [~liam@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:14 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:05:39 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-8-255.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:36 p_l|uni: what's the project? 23:07:11 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.119.146] has joined #lisp 23:07:29 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.51] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:08:51 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:08:55 what is the name of the startup init file for armed bear? 23:09:28 .abclrc 23:09:33 thanks 23:10:58 -!- jondro [~jedrek@chello089073233006.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:10 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:52 -!- phrixos [~user@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:13:21 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 23:14:04 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.119.146] has left #lisp 23:21:14 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:21:55 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:22:57 p_l|uni: yeah, it sounds better and better every day. how big are they, though? 23:24:25 -rw-r--r-- 1 stas users 2,8M 2010-10-16 03:23 lispinit.mem 23:25:30 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-8-255.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 23:26:20 executable is larger, 4.6M 23:26:47 which is compressible down to 1.8M 23:27:01 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:29:06 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:34 *stassats* feels the urge to write something exciting, in lisp 23:30:31 stassats: how about an SSL library ? 23:30:55 no, that's too big 23:31:18 i need to brighten the day of staring at and refactoring boring lisp code 23:33:22 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-8-255.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:36:58 Is CL missing an SSL library? I've seen it being requested several times. 23:37:09 There's cl+ssl... 23:37:13 it's not missing 23:37:38 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:37:50 there is cl+ssl, which is done through ffi, which is not fun at all 23:38:56 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-97-98.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:39:43 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-8-255.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 23:40:13 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:40:23 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:41:01 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:26 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-8-255.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:56 ffi stands for foreign fun interface 23:42:02 or maybe fun foreign interface 23:42:26 this type of fun is too foreign 23:42:47 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 23:45:14 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:45:32 *stassats* gets Unhandled memory fault at #x70, where is fun in that? 23:46:00 i guess when i'll be 70 i'll have memory faults too 23:46:56 stassats: that would be #x70 23:47:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.16.4] has joined #lisp 23:48:16 i'm afraid i will not live so long 23:49:04 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:28 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-77-169.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:49:39 Do people generally use scripts to help automate creating bindings for C libraries? 23:50:16 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-22-182.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:50:19 (for use with CFFI, as an example.) 23:50:47 I'm writing my own, just wondered if I'm re-inventing the wheel. 23:50:48 don't about people, but i don't 23:50:56 don't know about 23:51:00 jtza8: there are some. 23:51:08 I forget the name of the one I used... 23:51:13 something with z's in it. 23:51:44 http://common-lisp.net/project/fetter/ 23:51:48 I don't mean something like SWIG. 23:52:01 I mean semi-automatic. 23:52:14 i.e. 23:52:15 i used emacs macros once 23:52:23 to turn C into Lisp 23:52:31 keyboard macros, that is 23:52:44 Hmm... probably made things a lot easier... 23:53:17 I suppose I'm not going to do this once and once only in my life, so I might as well write some scripts.. 23:53:24 jtza8: doesn't swig support lisp? 23:53:33 It does 23:53:35 but 23:53:44 jtza8: the less you use FFI, the better! 23:53:46 no buts! 23:53:54 I'd like to have code that I can edit by hand. 23:54:15 I'm confused as to what you are looking for specifically. 23:55:03 schmrkc: It's not all that hard really, it's like something between SWIG and writing everything manually. 23:55:27 stassats: Yes, I agree... but sometimes it can't be helped. 23:55:35 hmmm ok 23:55:35 so, generate half of the bindings with SWIG, and half by hand 23:55:50 or have it prompt Y/n for each generated binding 23:55:54 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:34 hmm... 23:57:07 Ah well, thanks. :) Just wanted to know if I was doing something stupid. 23:57:22 this is #lisp. We think everything is stupid ;) 23:57:32 hehe 23:57:46 true :P 23:57:53 jtza8: worst case scenario is you are making something we already have and we get more duplication of stuff. 23:57:59 unless it's not 23:58:02 and you get to have a good time.