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#lisp 00:42:28 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:42:50 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 00:45:36 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:45:38 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:46:08 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@116-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:46:34 lemoinem [~swoog@20-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:56 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-147-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 00:50:32 I started to code something, I hit the "auto-complete" key, but it won't complete the rest of the program... 00:50:54 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:50:57 better file a bug 00:51:01 report* 00:51:51 i'm conflicted about making a 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[~nowl@c-66-30-78-234.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:52:07 what's the best way to extract a 3 deep tree from a SQL database without doing 2nd level leaf many calls to the db? 03:52:30 I actually have a way to draw out the data from SQL, but am wondering how I'd parse it on the lisp side. 03:53:06 in what form can you get it from sql? 03:54:16 in the particular case where I am only 2 deep, I can left join the two tables. 03:54:25 Say A is a category for B. 03:54:41 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 03:54:49 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:54:51 then I would get AxB, where every B item would also have all the A.* columns it belongs to 03:55:18 It is wasteful, but it can be lived with if the data in A is small (type + some numeric ID) 03:55:55 ...it's been a while since i looked at sql 03:56:09 SQL is not meant to do hierarchical stuff at all 03:56:41 in lisp talk, this is the data I'd get: if A's domain was 1, 2, 3, and B was characters, I'd get pairs like so: 03:56:54 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 03:57:18 ((1 a) (1 b) (1 c) (2 d) (2 e) (3 f) (4 g) (4 h) (4 i) (4 j)) 03:57:32 in slime how do I get a list of the accessors for an object? 03:57:58 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:58:18 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-131-252.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:58:35 hi 03:59:01 scottj: what do you mean by accessors? 03:59:11 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-239-70.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 03:59:23 functions that retrieve slot values 04:01:11 the accessors generated are just generic functions. 04:01:27 i haven't learned clos yet, sorry, but i'm guessing there's a way to get a list of accessors from lisp 04:02:36 file:///home/fade/SourceCode/lisp/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_acce.htm 04:02:39 er.. 04:02:49 check the hyperspec for with-accessors 04:03:30 scottj: You can see a lot of info on a class using the slime-inspector, but I'm not aware of any neat and clean representation of just the reader/writer methods generated. 04:03:58 austinh: yeah I'm using the inspector and it shows me slots but it's lame to have to go look in source to find how to access those slots 04:03:58 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:37 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:47 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.79.216] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:05:32 xinming [~hyy@115.223.128.187] has joined #lisp 04:06:40 scottj: I think the problem is that the concept of accessors is just a handy shortcut, but it doesn't really have the semantic meaning within the language that you are wishing for. 04:07:20 fair enough, thanks 04:07:46 austinh: i had a hunch that was true 04:08:26 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 04:12:00 scottj: You can always access the slots with slot-value. 04:14:10 A class might not even have any reader or writer methods defined for it's slots. 04:14:25 *its 04:16:02 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 04:16:34 evening 04:17:46 evening, and good night 04:17:49 -!- caelan [~caelan@65.122.168.93] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:18:51 -!- dys` is now known as dys 04:23:40 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-87-127.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:25:01 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:25:26 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:26:19 petabit [~89-145987@adsl-99-29-98-70.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:06 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:30:13 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:30:53 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:45 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:33:31 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925254987.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:34:37 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@198.99.244.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:35:00 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:32 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:17 scottj: I doubt it would be hard to implement your own code that provided a list of accessors. 04:38:24 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:39:45 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-239-70.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: plediii] 04:45:56 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 04:49:57 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925254987.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:52:35 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:55:48 -!- smik 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[~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:02 14:15:02 -!- names: ccl-logbot antivigilante leo2007 ustreamer-369 yates Hun Athas mstevens TheEnd2012 Demosthenes sellout p_l|uni Koven beach billstclair_ Ginei_Morioka petabit pjb pdelgallego peterhil gravicappa bohanlon dlowe b-man_ ziarkaen schoppenhauer Mowah platypine urandom__ humasect blabla spiaggia` nyef stassats carlocci ivan4th Ralith_ Rearden hdurer`` Jasko Blkt hohoho tritchey Jabberwockey baley Joreji wuj yakov milanj tfb cch xyxxyyy mbohun debiandebian 14:15:02 -!- names: katofiad Krystof Yuuhi rudi_ tcr H4ns mvilleneuve mega1 dfox serichsen nikodemus andreas1 nullman [df] herbieB_ tokenrove _3b zbigniew rapacity hypno turbo24prg joast sid3k ecraven cYmen CrazyEddy ramus @slyrus_ yahooooo boyscared eli delYsid bobbysmith007 Fade zeroish ineiros sie Tasunteld kvsari Axioplase_ Pepe_ Xof derrida quasisane sepi housel johanbev Quadrescence super__ djinni` dostoyev1ky seejay` qebab minion Odin- Obfuscate fihi09 abend johs 14:15:02 -!- names: deepfire clop lisppaste amaron Intensity schmrkc gnooth zvrba ``Erik sbahra Fullma gz` hohum fda314925 petter` PuffTheMagic froydnj mulander ASau` reb Bucciarati emma nuba z0d lnostdal prip kephas sigjuice Wombatzus hugod benny tsuru Modius atomx Kaer s0ber_ coyo|pingout sonnym dborba rtoym skalawag dto scottj xinming rme pierrep mrSpec flip214 mcsontos jdz tessier morphling hlavaty Nshag Salamander younder kuwabara cods franki^ pok guaqua boysetsfrog 14:15:02 -!- names: arbscht easyE gigamonkey l_a_m cmeow chrnybo Draggor pchrist aoh c|mell Adamant lusory rahul BrandLeeJones jrockway wvdschel kooll HG` aerique ehu daniel blandest xan_ stettberger Cowmoo incandenza dys symbole BrianRice Hraban rbarraud JuanDaugherty Patzy redline6561 jpd Fare adeht rlb3 naryl rdd Tristam PascalHunger vandemar _8david intchanter antifuchs cataska SCVirus eihrul cmm christoph_debian dcrawford hypercube31 bzzbzz antoszka fmu guther Zhivago 14:15:02 -!- names: OliverUv_ fatblueduck MetalDust Tordek Dodek rootzlevel krappie_ starseeker mal__ setheus logia_th fe[nl]ix austinh Euthydemus _3b` sykopomp lonstein angavrilov specbot mornfall pkhuong slyrus__ stepnem mathrick kleppari chandler svk_ vinnana tychoish yan_ eno clog nasloc__ krl dmiles_afk gds Borbus erk_ scode tomaw foom bfein vs tic mgr Adrinael hdurer_ mtd cpt_nemo qsun vsync codemonkeyx eldragon rotty Khisanth m4thrick jsnell blitz_ p_l joshe 14:15:02 -!- names: Yamazaki-kun acieroid lharc tvaalen ianmcorvidae albino PissedNumlock jpanest spacebat galdor 14:16:07 interesting graphs 14:19:56 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:53 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:22:06 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:20 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:22:32 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:22:35 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:23:20 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:25:23 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:27:15 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:28:55 stis_i8 [~chatzilla@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:30:25 gz [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has joined #lisp 14:31:21 -!- billstclair_ is now known as billstclair 14:31:27 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:31:27 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:32:10 yates: inasmuch as I hadn't heard of ht-ajax until now, i'm going out on a limb and saying that weblocks is more popular/used. 14:32:26 looks like ht-ajax might be lighter, though, so perhaps it depends on what you intend to do. 14:32:44 you should also take a look at UCW. 14:34:00 weblocks has fair documentation. 14:34:16 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.217.183.165] has joined #lisp 14:34:56 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 14:35:39 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:44 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:28 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:22 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:39:18 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:39:32 Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 14:41:23 -!- rudi_ [~rudi@mineralogix.ifi.uio.no] has quit [Quit: rudi_] 14:41:49 -!- coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: client closed in haste] 14:44:50 mega1 [~quassel@pool-01229.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 14:48:59 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:50:05 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:50:40 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:28 -!- benny [~benny@87.122.41.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:53:26 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:54:09 Bronsa [~bronsa@host238-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:58:34 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:11 -!- platypine [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:59:49 benny [~benny@i577A39D8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:15 Only four days and 16 hours until ILC! 15:04:58 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:08:00 Or maybe it's 15 hours. I can't quite tell. 15:08:28 there's a timezone issue. 15:08:31 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:46 do you measure from EDT or central? 15:09:35 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:58 EDT, I think. 15:11:14 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06da93.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 15:11:22 serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06da93.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:26 oups 15:13:02 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:07 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@85.22.93.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:13:58 How do you usually do html templating with lisp? 15:14:19 Does some library have a very good templating system? 15:14:27 peterhil: cl-who 15:14:41 Ok, maybe I just need to play with that... 15:14:43 what's the smart way to loop through a list collecting the item that maximizes a given function with the loop macro? 15:14:44 peterhil: I only do simple templating with html-template. 15:14:46 peterhil: usually functions/macros with various helper packages (like cl-who or yaclml) 15:14:56 Blkt: no smart way 15:14:59 Blkt: iterate solves that problem :) 15:15:29 Blkt: you write a macro. 15:15:45 perhaps, that's the most missing feature in LOOP 15:15:56 I thought that too... 15:16:13 maximize collects the value of the fanction, not the argument 15:16:24 there's a templating system called TAL associated with yaclml that is used pretty extensively in UCW. 15:17:24 TAL reminded me a little of the templates used in Zope 15:17:34 p_l|uni: I think that was intentional. 15:17:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:18:40 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:43 peterhil: there's also the yaclml thingie 15:19:07 Blkt: cl-utiltiies has a function called extremum for that 15:19:24 tcr: thanks 15:19:26 oh, somebody mentioned tal already 15:19:33 I'll check it out 15:19:40 tcr: thanks! i was trying to find that. i thought it was in alexandria. 15:19:46 tcr: i really need my global apropos :( 15:19:57 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:23:25 nikodemus: how many other projects will break when you lock alexandria? 15:23:49 Xach: how did i try to load all of quicklisp again? 15:25:32 (cl-opengl is the only one i've noticed, but i can check for others) 15:26:33 nikodemus: I don't know of a good way to *load* it all, but you can fetch it all fairly easily 15:26:52 (use-package ql-dist) and then (map nil 'ensure-installed (provided-systems t)) 15:27:18 thanks. i'll wait till my benchmarks finish and check then 15:29:31 -!- petabit [~89-142738@adsl-99-163-106-141.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:31:08 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:32:39 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 15:33:13 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:31 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:49 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:36:46 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host238-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:39:58 -!- andreas1 [~andreas@p4FF2A25B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:40:59 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:42:19 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:43:52 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:12 Bronsa [~bronsa@host238-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:46:24 weirdo [sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:14 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:47:14 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 15:49:52 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:51:53 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host238-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:52:52 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:53:44 Bronsa [~bronsa@host238-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:54:41 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:57:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:58:07 -!- blabla [~lisps@stargate.fs.uni-lj.si] has quit [Quit: blabla] 15:59:28 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:04:30 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@i125-201-142-153.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:09:11 -!- stis_i8 [~chatzilla@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:16:22 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-01229.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:16:32 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 16:20:13 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:21:15 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-30-125.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:21:57 xristos [~x@174-140-96-143-dhcp.mia.fl.atlanticbb.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:12 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:23:13 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 16:23:21 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 16:24:11 is (macro-function sym) a good way to test whether sym is a macro expander? 16:24:39 (and (fboundp sym) (macro-function sym)) is 16:24:41 (and (fboundp sym) (macro-function sym)) yes 16:25:01 thanks 16:28:40 Fade: thx 16:34:06 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:34:17 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 16:34:32 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:40 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:35:02 xyxxyyy2 [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 16:35:11 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 16:36:10 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:37:19 splittist [~John@host217-34-132-33.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:25 morning 16:38:05 -!- xyxxyyy2 [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Client Quit] 16:38:19 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:41:59 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.56.136] has joined #lisp 16:44:59 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:07 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7545c5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:22 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:26 n'p 16:49:00 I have a question about Binding VS Assignment in DOLIST-like iteration macros... http://paste.lisp.org/display/115540 16:50:09 Hexstream: even whatever sbcl does may change at any time 16:50:20 so you really should not rely on a new binding 16:51:05 Well, FUCK. I'd have to audit every line of every one of my projects to check for this error or something. That's just crazy. 16:51:31 I made this error consistently every time. 16:52:11 The correct way to handle this is to do something like (let ((var var))) for such variables that need to be captured into a LAMBDA? 16:52:18 yes 16:52:34 (in practise SBCL is not likely to change soon, but anyone trying to port your code is in a world of pain) 16:52:42 better to fix it sooner than later 16:53:04 I'm already later! 16:53:43 clhs dolist 16:53:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dolist.htm 16:53:58 another alternative is to write your own dolist replacement that always provides a fresh binding, and just (:shadow #:dolist) 16:54:03 "It is implementation-dependent whether dolist establishes a new binding of var on each iteration or whether it establishes a binding for var once at the 16:54:03 beginning and then assigns it on any subsequent iterations." 16:54:05 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:19 you could eg. copy the sbcl's current one, which has a fresh binding for each iteration 16:54:21 Hexstream: that's where it says so 16:54:33 Morning. 16:55:04 hi monkeyman 16:55:25 stassats: Yeah. My brain was going into a state of shock and disbelief every time I read that, once I could understand the implications. 16:56:08 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:13 Hexstream: it would be interesting to survey current practice and catalog who does new bindings and who does assignment 16:56:20 and clisp does return (3 3 3) 16:56:43 nitpicking from Xof on this very issue prompted Erik Naggum to stop posting code to usenet! 16:56:54 hah, ACL returns (NIL NIL NIL) 16:57:23 that actually seems like a very good choice. 16:57:30 Are there really different different implementation strategies that would make it a real hardship for some impls if it had been specified one way or the other. 16:58:10 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.76.54.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Quit: tfb] 16:58:20 gigamonkey: From my limited experience with PROG, I'd think using it in macroexpansions would suggest going the Assignment way. 16:58:55 (very, very, very limited experience, I just started beginning to think to use it) 16:59:10 <_8david> let me guess, only SBCL makes fresh bindings, because that way user annoyance can be maximized? 16:59:10 But other than changing the definition of the macro, would some implementations really suffer? 16:59:33 Hexstream: it doesn't suggest 16:59:53 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:00 sbcl has fresh bindings because that way the types come out neatly 17:00:19 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas11-montrealak-1177756539.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:06 it's iirc actually nicer to write it without fresh bindings, but then you need to either lie or jump through hoops to deal with (dolist (x list) (declare (foostructure x)) ...) 17:01:06 stassats: Well, PROG provides bindings before TAGBODY which can handle iteration, and if you're going to use LET in the body of PROG then you lose the implicit TAGBODY, which is a bit annoying, no? (maybe not) 17:01:11 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 17:01:32 -!- ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:01:50 and since sbcl's compiler doesn't like being lied to... 17:02:08 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 17:02:23 Does going the "Assignment" way instead of the "Binding" way provide better performance? Like, what's the cost of entering a new binding scope VS assigning a variable? 17:02:47 <_8david> nikodemus: is that so that NIL isn't declared as a foostructure? 17:03:13 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 17:03:21 _8david: that's about it 17:04:14 and we _still_ need to ignore the declaration for the result form if it is used 17:04:25 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:42 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3247834704250207@naggum.no.html <-- what i was mentioning earlier - not quite the same as i remembered. 17:06:08 "Why do I think this rebarbative complaint is meretricious?" is a sentence I remember well! 17:08:51 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:09:44 I nominate "meretricious" as my Word of the Day(tm). 17:10:08 Xach: that's a good nugget of Naggum 17:10:15 Xach: man that post is very thesaurusy 17:10:29 Xach: i respect Naggum as much as the next guy, but lol 17:11:04 'The standard is not some license for academic masturbators to be creative at the expense of the programmers with the excuse that they are conforming to some bogus "letter of the standard". 17:11:09 ' :D 17:11:36 yan_: If you're claiming that's "thesaurusy", I don't see how it is. 17:11:55 not the sentence i posted, the few paragraphs below that.. the one i posted i just like :) 17:11:59 err above that 17:12:00 jmbr [~jmbr@96.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:16:13 Anarch [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 17:18:21 and naggum's code actually gives different results on different implementations 17:20:21 and looks like only SBCL differs from 17:21:52 dumb question #1829: can lisp create types dynamically, i.e., at run-time? 17:22:22 Obviously... 17:22:44 you can create classes at run-time, and any other thing using EVAL 17:23:20 and when you create a class, you are also creating a type with the same name 17:23:37 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.97.201] has joined #lisp 17:24:14 stassats: you mentioned "no silver bullet" the other day - don't these capabilities make lisp significantly more powerful than other languages like C++? 17:24:21 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-esftndviulmrbmjz] has joined #lisp 17:24:38 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:24:50 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@c-69-181-60-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:50 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@c-69-181-60-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:24:50 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 17:25:10 not exactly, because lisp type system is very primitive 17:25:31 satisfying? 17:25:35 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.54] has joined #lisp 17:25:41 It's highly dynamic, but not primitive. 17:25:46 It's turing complete. 17:26:00 pjb: That makes it primitive in my mind... 17:26:12 I can't remember, but as well as the issue of the bindings / assignment and the declarations, there's also the issue of prefetching the next element 17:26:16 -!- gz [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has left #lisp 17:26:17 It's easy to add a turing-complete backdoor to something and saying "there, it's powerful!" 17:26:51 Indeed that's why lisp was invented in 1959. 17:27:01 pjb: and what can you do with it? aside from checking types 17:27:18 What else can you do with any other type system than checking types? 17:27:29 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:53 perform optimizations 17:29:29 pjb: Try to consider the ultimate results of "satisfying" being the only type of type in Common Lisp. 17:29:55 aeqa [~aeqa@173-162-164-137-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:24 and have objects of the said type 17:30:26 Kruppe [~user@134.117.254.249] has joined #lisp 17:30:55 gonzojive [~red@171.66.87.207] has joined #lisp 17:31:20 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has quit [Quit: TheEnd2012] 17:32:30 with SATISFIES you can have objects satisfying some condition, but not objects of some type 17:32:31 I've come to appreciate the value of reducing turing-completeness when possible, over the years. Concepts and techniques such as DSLs, pattern-matching and dataflow can help in that respect. Turing-completeness is a double-edged sword: it's a kind of "power" that limits other kinds of "powers". Such as the power to analyse and transform statically. 17:33:23 lemoinem [~swoog@20-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:58 smithzv [~smithzv@c-98-245-201-232.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:12 leo2007` [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 17:34:30 stassats: extensionalism maintains that the two are the same 17:34:37 -!- leo2007` [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:15 adeht: You mean in the sense of "turing-tarpit"? ;P 17:35:22 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115543 17:35:31 leo2007` [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 17:35:33 How to make a haskeller puke ;-) 17:36:23 and how to blow stack in lisp 17:36:35 err, heap 17:36:49 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:37:21 Hexstream: this has nothing to do with "turing-tarpit" 17:37:30 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD951F1DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:26 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:38:46 adeht: Well, I'm not clear on what "extensionalism" might be. Don't you mean that given a lack of super for X, you almost always can implement it on your own or fake it or just live without it? 17:38:58 support, not super... 17:39:49 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:58 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:45 -!- leo2007` [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:04 -!- dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:41:38 leo2007` [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 17:42:33 -!- leo2007` [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:16 leo2007` [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 17:43:43 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:44:09 quodlibetor [~user@146.95.31.182] has joined #lisp 17:44:36 -!- leo2007` [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:00 _8david: btw, would you please update cxml-stp tarball? normalize-text-nodes bug (fixed in the last commit) is very annoying and quicklisp picks up the old version which has it 17:50:12 Hexstream: types are sets.. membership is determined by "satisfying some condition".. 17:50:58 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 17:51:36 <_8david> OK, will do so. It's time for a round of cxml-* release tarballs, because the cxml release doesn't work with ASDF2 at all. 17:51:44 <_8david> (I'd quite like it if Xach could switch quicklisp to cxml-stp from git if he hasn't done so already though.) 17:52:27 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:52:56 adeht: Well, it's sometimes useful to analyse those sets, which you can't do if the only description of them you have is some turing-complete code. 17:53:15 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:53:36 *Xach* creates http://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/issue/14 17:53:52 leo2007` [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 17:54:48 (contrived example alert) Think, for instance, of some type-system which has a type for even integers and another type for odd integers. It's potentially interesting to have a feature that if you declare a variable as both an even integer and an odd integer, you get a compile-time error. You couldn't do such an analysis if those types or just turing-complete checks. 17:55:05 if those types are* 17:55:32 Hexstream: (i) that is not proven (ii) I'll leave the fancy type theorists to themselves 17:57:34 It's proven in the general case... There are hard theoretical limits to how much analysis of turing-complete code can be done. 17:58:08 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:17 Heck, try to use a build system that specifies loading of dependencies solely as a nice block of turing-complete code... Quicklisp wouldn't even be possible, or at least would be very much harder to make ;P 17:58:21 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:58:25 -!- leo2007` [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:27 Hexstream: good, that's better than your previous remark about the inability of analysis 17:58:43 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:59:18 What's the point of having the full power of turing-completeness with the drawbacks that it entails if you don't actually need even a tenth of its power in many cases? 18:00:15 What's the point of having full turing-completeness ability if you have to always think and make sure you're not going too dynamic beyond the ability of the program to analyse your code? Such implicit restrictions are very hard to manage. 18:00:29 Hexstream: the point is that it's convenient and pragmatic... something the type theorists don't value: they want to write code for verifiability and machine analysis, rather than for other people.. see e.g., Total Functional Programming 18:00:37 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:00:38 It's a bit like "sufficiently smart compilers" except worse. 18:01:05 actually I doubt they want to write code. they want to write papers. 18:01:29 adeht: I'll state that I'm not a type theorist and don't really care about verifiability, machine analysis and "purity", beyond some basics. 18:01:39 not like you should choose either of extremities 18:01:51 -!- xristos [~x@174-140-96-143-dhcp.mia.fl.atlanticbb.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:19 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@c-69-181-60-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:20 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@c-69-181-60-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:02:20 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 18:03:18 stassats: indeed. CL has a turing equivalent language for defining types, _and_ good type inference engines for common types 18:03:38 -!- bohanlon [~bohanlon@66.170.231.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:03:45 Soulman1 [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:56 stassats: Right. In my DSLs, I like to try to limit turing-completeness but still having a well-restricted "turing-complete backdoor" that I use the least possible. Sometimes I'll find I regularly go for the backdoor for some usage pattern. That's usually a sign my DSL is missing some expressivity and I need to support some new feature(s). 18:05:12 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:07:11 andreas [~andreas@pD4B9E904.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:14 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 18:08:22 adeht: I'd say it the other way around... CL could very well survive without satisfies, but not without the rest. 18:09:55 bohanlon [~bohanlon@66.170.231.11] has joined #lisp 18:13:03 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:13:31 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:13:35 -!- aeqa [~aeqa@173-162-164-137-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:13:44 Cowmoo` [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:51 now that is a nice tarpit 18:14:11 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.148.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:14:32 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.148.252] has joined #lisp 18:14:33 brainfuck also survives 18:15:10 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas11-montrealak-1177756539.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:17:49 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 18:19:05 dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has joined #lisp 18:19:06 -!- quodlibetor [~user@146.95.31.182] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:19:07 _8david, Xach: thanks! 18:20:00 Which is the entire point... 18:26:38 aeqa [~aeqa@173-162-164-137-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:42 Sbidicuda [~antani@host209-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:27:25 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:32 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:27:50 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:19 -!- Cowmoo` [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:18 -!- andreas [~andreas@pD4B9E904.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:30:45 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 18:31:46 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:39 timor [~timor@port-92-195-231-125.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:36:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:36:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:38:28 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:03 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:14 platypine [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:35 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:40:02 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:10 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:40:19 -!- guther is now known as guther2 18:41:18 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@184-98-128-120.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:41:24 -!- guther2 is now known as guther 18:41:37 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:45 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-231-125.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:10 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:44:19 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-202-23.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:44:26 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:45:08 andreas [~andreas@pD4B9E904.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:30 -!- guther is now known as guther2 18:46:35 TomJ [~tomj@89.241.159.104] has joined #lisp 18:49:50 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-202-23.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:50:53 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:51:03 -!- guther2 is now known as guther 18:53:13 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:54:55 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.97.201] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:10 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050065104.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:52 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:03:29 -!- platypine [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:04:01 roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 19:04:18 -!- guther is now known as guther2 19:04:18 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-112-156.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:07:05 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:08:06 is there a simple example of connecting to a database, doing a query, and displaying the results in a web page using one of the web frameworks (i guess cl-weblocks wins the popularity contest)? 19:08:30 even better yet, an updatable grid? 19:08:37 with record navigators? 19:08:46 wakeupsticky [47d02dae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.208.45.174] has joined #lisp 19:08:51 some newbie questions 19:08:53 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.87.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:09:43 i installed mcclim with quicklisp. How do I run one of the example programs? I tried copying puzzle.lisp (one of the examples) into emacs and compiling it and then doing (load "puzzle.lisp") but was told 19:09:52 Athas` [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 19:10:06 The name "CLIM-Demo" does not designate any package 19:11:31 *Xach* loads mcclim to check 19:12:10 you need to quick-load "clim-examples" 19:12:22 gegege [guther@dslb-092-076-108-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:40 and it will say what to do next 19:13:15 *Xach* posts a spoiler 19:13:15 -!- gegege [guther@dslb-092-076-108-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:13:16 ;; try (CLIM-DEMO::DEMODEMO) 19:13:44 konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has joined #lisp 19:13:57 i guess what i'm getting at is how to just compile and run a .lisp file that depends on mcclim. 19:14:07 not necessarily get some particular mcclim demo 19:14:13 like i said, very noobish question 19:14:26 you made everything right 19:14:30 gonzojive [~red@171.66.90.85] has joined #lisp 19:14:43 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:50 like, if i compiled a c program it would be an executable that i could just call as a command 19:14:52 wakeupsticky: I wrote a guide for how I organize and load projects that depend on other projects. It's not about mcclim, but I hope it's clear how to adapt it. 19:15:04 http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 19:15:23 wakeupsticky: With Lisp, you usually end up with a function you can call rather than a file you can run. 19:15:30 Ur5us [~Ur5us@121.98.212.19] has joined #lisp 19:15:37 is it difficult to create a standalone? 19:15:57 no 19:16:02 wakeupsticky: no, but often unnecessary. 19:16:29 my goal is just to write a program that depends on mcclim and then have access to it as a standalone executable. 19:16:30 wakeupsticky: not really, but that's not the default mode of development. 19:16:46 down the road i might want to try to port it to windows if that's possible. 19:16:56 wakeupsticky: I'd revisit your goals. 19:17:04 the windows part or the first part 19:17:09 All of it. 19:17:12 mcclim works on windows 19:17:12 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 19:17:40 i mean if i can create a gui app with mcclim but i invoke it with a function call i guess that's fine for now 19:18:07 Where can i get Texticl? Google knows nothing but cliki page which leads to a broken site. 19:18:30 wakeupsticky: What will your GUI app do? 19:18:32 but i'm stuck on just getting something from here: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/mcclim/Examples/?root=mcclim to run 19:18:32 what a strange name 19:18:47 wakeupsticky: did you try (clim-demo::demodemo)? 19:18:54 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:18:57 wakeupsticky: after (ql:quickload "clim-examples"), that is? 19:19:13 i was more trying to see how to get a specific .lisp file and then load it 19:19:24 i got clim-demo:demodemo to work :) 19:19:32 wakeupsticky: that livejournal link was for you 19:19:34 jedrek` [~jedrek@chello089073233006.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 19:19:49 ok, i will read through that now 19:20:10 wakeupsticky: maybe slow down and try to learn Lisp a little more before plunging forward with your final project 19:21:15 yeah, i'm going through the "gentle introduction to symbolic computation" book but i'm a big impatient since i went through half of it a couple of years ago and am going through it again. Plus I am competent in haskell (wrote a chess engine in it) but want to switch to lisp. 19:21:33 so it's hard to go from "ready to dive into a project (haskell)" to "bunch of toy apps (lisp)" :) 19:22:08 i'm not trying to start the project now, i just want to learn all the tedious stuff about how i'll actually get it to run once i've written it 19:22:53 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has quit [Quit: TheEnd2012] 19:23:01 for now i guess i will go back and read some more of the book :P 19:24:04 i will concentrate on the language itself but i will be back here once i'm through that book :P 19:24:09 -!- jedrek` [~jedrek@chello089073233006.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 19:24:51 minion: tell wakeupsticky about pcl-book 19:24:51 wakeupsticky: please see pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:25:07 wakeupsticky: in general, i would say not to worry about it yet. if you're curious about creating executables (though it's not the only way to deliver an application), this is one of the major differences between implementations; see http://www.cliki.net/Creating%20Executables 19:25:10 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 19:25:13 wakeupsticky: you might have more fun what that one -- it's a great book 19:25:33 yes, that is on my to-do list after the current book. The problem with pcl is the lack of exercises (unless there are exercises in later chapters?) 19:25:37 but i plan to read through it next 19:25:55 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 19:26:04 jondro [~jedrek@chello089073233006.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 19:26:26 wakeupsticky: there aren't exercises, but it demonstrates building useful software. PAIP is full of exercises, btw, once you get a little more lisp under your belt. 19:27:09 PAIP? 19:27:38 minion: tell wakeupsticky about PAIP 19:27:39 wakeupsticky: have a look at PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 19:27:54 really great book. it'll stay on your desk forever. 19:28:07 I saw the AI part and was wondering if it was that (couldn't remember the name). 19:28:46 one could argue that it's more about programming than AI 19:29:20 So maybe I will go Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation -> Practical Common LISP -> Paradigms of Artificial Intelligent Programming 19:29:47 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:30:10 PAIP has a chapter about symbolic mathematics 19:30:14 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 19:30:26 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.90.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:30:34 two of them actually 19:32:24 wakeupsticky: what kind of GUI program did you have in mind? 19:33:00 i wanted to make a poker analytics program. the first step would be a pokerstove clone. 19:33:35 i was going to do it in haskell but decided to go with lisp. 19:34:14 (pokerstove is a program which allows you to enter several holdem hands and some community cards and gives you the equity) 19:34:30 ah 19:35:00 hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-117-136.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:07 i have some more advanced ideas but i figured i'd evolve the program from that simple beginning. 19:35:35 the chess engine i wrote in haskell was preparation for doing this 19:36:58 Xach: I was reading your blog entry about asdf, but I can't figure out how to best refactor some code I need to put paths in *central-registry* 19:37:10 Blkt: oh? 19:37:15 What's the stumbling block? 19:37:43 I can't use a "systems" folder to just push it into *central-registry* 19:38:04 I need to add an asdf system in a "portable" way 19:38:30 practicly speaking: I have two systems, the one I'm working on and another I need (cl-utilities) 19:38:37 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:55 I need to load cl-utilities in the local sbcl before loading my system 19:39:27 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:40:12 Blkt: I have a source directory where I keep my personal (non-ql-installed) projects. I have ASDF configured such that it will automatically recursively scan that folder for asdf systems, instead of requiring me to push those folders into *central-registry* myself. 19:40:31 that's nice 19:40:42 that way, your system can just depend on cl-utilities, and it should just work. Is that what you needed? 19:41:02 yes 19:41:17 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06da93.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: wm] 19:41:46 See http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF for details. Note that you need to use ASDF2 for this. 19:42:07 mmm, that may be a problem 19:42:14 are you using quicklisp? 19:42:51 (quicklisp pulls in asdf2 itself) 19:42:59 yes, but the fact is that Google AI Contest organizers have SBCL 1.0.11 installed 19:43:16 clean install 19:43:31 and I need a few libs for my bot 19:43:35 you should be able to include asdf.lisp and load it, no? 19:43:57 that sounds good 19:46:52 -!- hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:47:47 asdf2 can be loaded on top of asdf1 (or instead of it) - no problem. 19:48:30 and you can install your own SBCL, can't you? 19:48:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:38 Fare: not for this, I don't think. 19:48:56 I can't 19:49:03 So I'm not sure if he would be able to use the usual configuration for asdf2 either. 19:49:08 it's in their main server 19:49:22 Fare: Someone sent me a backtrace of a Quicklisp failure on CLISP 2.49 on Windows. It looks slightly like an ASDF issue to me. Is that a combination you can test? 19:49:34 -!- wakeupsticky [47d02dae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.208.45.174] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:49:34 http://pastebin.com/pSGHEPh3 is the backtrace he sent. 19:49:49 Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-137.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:50:01 the combination being ASDF 2.009, CLISP 2.49, and Windows. 19:50:31 I don't have Windows. 19:50:33 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:49 rtoym: ping 19:51:12 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:19 fe[nl]ix: Yes? 19:51:28 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:39 a backtrace without error or context isn't useful 19:52:07 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:42 http://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/issues#issue/8 is the error 19:52:47 and without the argument that makes the function fail, either 19:53:14 (ASDF:TRUENAMIZE '#P"C:\\home\\jonas\\quicklisp\\quicklisp\\package.fas") => *** - EXT:PROBE-PATHNAME: File #P"C:\\" does not exist 19:53:25 the guy has no c:\ ??? 19:53:34 That doesn't seem very likely to me. 19:53:42 he has a c:\home\jonas but no c:\ ? 19:53:46 That doesn't seem very likely to me. 19:53:50 sounds like a clisp bug. 19:53:51 does clisp run on windows without cygwin? 19:54:05 tokenrove, in this case, yes. Hi!!!!!!!!!!!!! 19:54:24 rtoym: I just compiled 20b but l-i-v returns "Snapshot 2010-07 (20A Unicode)" 19:54:24 (ahoy!) 19:54:27 rtoym: any idea ? 19:54:53 alas, i only have clisp built with cygwin on the windows machine here, and it's a bit old. 19:54:55 gabnet [~gabnet@13.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:56 Can he (ext:probe-pathname "c:\\") and see what happens? 19:55:06 Fare: Well, EXT:PROBE-PATHNAME is for pathnames, and EXT:PROBE-DIRECTORY is for directories. 19:55:13 Xach: hmm. do "c:\\foo\\" really work? i remeber a few years ago i had this problem on windows. 19:55:15 can he do both? 19:55:18 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:37 fe[nl]ix: The "Snapshot..." part is something you have to give when compiling. the 20A Unicode part is in the sources. Something is messed. How did you compile it? 19:55:52 (ext:probe-pathname "c:\\") (ext:probe-pathname "c:\\home\\") (ext:probe-directory "c:\\") (ext:probe-directory "c:\\home\\") 19:55:54 that's what i'm saying, the clisp i have here doesn't seem to deal with the idea of C:\ at all, only /c/... 19:56:09 rtoym: with the released binary 19:56:26 fe[nl]ix: You built 20b with 20b? What does the released binary say? 19:56:28 oh yes - is he using cygwin or native clisp? 19:56:54 Fare: Do you feel like commenting on the issue, or shall I act as relay? 19:57:02 "the issue" being http://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/issues#issue/8 19:57:14 I'll put info on the ticket page 19:57:48 oh, i see that probe-directory "C:/" also works on this clisp. 19:58:12 rtoym: it says the same 19:58:23 tokenrove: what version do you have? 19:58:37 fe[nl]ix: Aargh. Did I screw up? Let me check.... 19:59:26 francogrex [~user@109.130.69.59] has joined #lisp 19:59:27 xach: sorry, it's quite old -- 2.44; but perhaps i should upgrade, then i could help test. 20:00:14 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:01:34 Does Edi Weitz hang out here sometimes? 20:01:35 francogrex, memo from pjb: Have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/115518 ; character may be princ'ed literally, or prin1'ed readably. If you want to see the glyph, use princ. 20:01:48 francogrex: No. (maybe once or twice long ago) 20:01:58 ok 20:02:24 fe[nl]ix: Where did you get the 20b binary? I just checked on cl.net and extracted the 20b binary. It says 20b (20B Unicode) 20:02:25 crod [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:02:39 hmmm 20:03:02 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:03:07 xach: okay, i get the "C:\\ doesn't exist" behavior in clisp 2.49. 20:03:37 gonzojive [~red@171.66.87.207] has joined #lisp 20:03:48 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:03:49 tokenrove, but not in 2.44 ? 20:03:51 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:55 file bug to clisp-dev 20:04:02 probe-pathname was introduced in 2.47 20:04:03 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:04 (which occurs equally with "C:/" or "C:\\" as an argument) 20:04:20 but probe-directory works? 20:04:38 yes 20:04:54 probe-pathname is not specified to give an error, though. 20:05:11 and when i use a non-file pathname in linux, it just returns nil. 20:05:12 right, probe-pathname "C:\\asntoeh" just returns nil 20:05:35 *Xach* wonders what's up 20:06:06 Does sound like a CLISP bug, either in the documentation or the implementation. 20:07:34 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:07:38 dlowe [~dlowe@c-76-24-31-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:59 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:08:18 -!- jondro [~jedrek@chello089073233006.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:01 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host238-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:10:36 probe_pathname calls classify_namestring, which looks like it throws the erro 20:13:55 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@13.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:14:28 gabnet [~gabnet@13.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:38 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-202-23.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:20:24 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD951F1DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:33 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:20:40 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@13.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 20:21:22 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 20:27:47 can you do the summoning of sds? 20:28:59 ? 20:29:08 Fare: it does seem like asdf::truenameize's use of asdf::probe-file* on the pathname root does not fit well with clisp's ext:probe-pathname/ext:probe-directory dichotomy. 20:29:14 and with that, I go! 20:29:27 Fare: what summoning? :D 20:29:51 i might be able to figure this out and submit a patch. i think it might be a bug in classify_namestring. 20:29:52 like, email to clisp-dev 20:30:28 Xach: I don't understand how it fails to fit, but patches are welcome. 20:31:06 -!- Kruppe [~user@134.117.254.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:31:28 -!- Sbidicuda [~antani@host209-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:54 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:30 hmm, and ext:probe-pathname "con" causes bad things to happen 20:36:13 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas11-montrealak-1177756539.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:43 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:41:33 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@nat/mozilla/x-uymmwdanpxtrmgww] has joined #lisp 20:41:34 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@nat/mozilla/x-uymmwdanpxtrmgww] has quit [Changing host] 20:41:34 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 20:42:48 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:43:03 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.148.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:43:40 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:15 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 20:44:58 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.72.135] has joined #lisp 20:46:51 there used to be a bug whereby you could crash Windows by doing simple things with CON 20:49:02 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:21 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-115-252.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:52:02 oh yeah, there are a lot of problems with the reserved device names and the \\.\ namespace. clisp behaves inconsistently when provided with these names, though. 20:53:03 directory signals the same "not found" error with \\.\con 20:56:11 fe[nl]ix: Did you find out what the problem is? 20:57:16 nope 20:59:26 Did you have the right binary? 20:59:28 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:59:29 yes 21:00:12 If you're using the build.sh script to rebuild, are you giving the right -v argument? 21:01:27 am I suppose to supply a -v ? 21:03:53 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:04:52 fe[nl]ix: where is libfixposix.h supposed to be in? 21:04:59 i don't seem to have it 21:05:31 nikodemus: http://gitorious.org/libfixposix/libfixposix 21:05:39 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:06:06 fe[nl]ix: iolib build breaks missing it 21:06:12 fe[nl]ix: Yes. If you don't the build.sh will make up a version based on the current date/time. 21:06:20 (and great many things in quicklisp depending on iolib) 21:06:50 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 21:07:05 But you must have done this before for previous builds, though. 21:07:18 is it supposed to be in the tree, or should iolib depend on libfixposix? 21:07:33 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:43 rtoym: I've double-checked that the build script uses cmucl-src-20b.tar.bz2 and cmucl-20b-x86-linux.tar.bz2, and at start it says "CMU Common Lisp 20b (20B Unicode)", yet somehow I end up with 20a Snapshot 21:07:59 hdurer__ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:19 rtoym: I must say I hadn't :) 21:09:02 fe[nl]ix: Heh. I wonder how that works, then. 21:09:12 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:09:13 Oh, maybe I messed up with the src tarball? 21:09:17 nikodemus: that breakage is to be expected. HEAD depends on libfixposix 21:09:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:10:27 nikodemus: that's why I made a release before introducing this new dependency 21:10:42 ok 21:10:44 thanks 21:10:47 No, the src tarball says the byte-fasl-file-version is #x20b, which is right. 21:10:53 -!- hdurer_ [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:12:27 Fare: Well, is the intent of probe-file* to return nil on the root of the filesystem on clisp? 21:12:40 fe[nl]ix: Something is messed up in your scripts if the resulting lisp says "foo (20A Unicode)". The 20A part of "(20A Unicode)" comes from the byte-fasl-file-version and you can't just do a normal compile to change the fasl version from 20b to 20a. 21:12:49 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:13:03 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:13:09 (Unless you use the appropriate bootstrap file.) 21:13:23 Xach: no, the intent is to return a pathname for that directory. 21:13:34 the truename of it, even. 21:14:02 Fare: do you see how that might seem incompatible with the use of ext:probe-pathname? 21:14:10 probe-pathname* is used by truenamize which tries to normalize pathnames. 21:14:21 nikodemus: btw, thanks for the patch :) 21:14:24 AndroUser [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:31 no - it shouldn't 21:14:48 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:16:26 -!- aeqa [~aeqa@173-162-164-137-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:17:00 Fare: Ok, my misunderstanding. I thought ext:probe-pathname and ext:probe-truename were mutually exclusive. I see now on rereading the docs that I'm wrong. 21:17:11 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:17:12 err, ext:probe-directory 21:17:15 not probe-truename 21:17:38 -!- sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has quit [Quit: sellout] 21:17:45 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 21:18:22 If it returns NIL, then I think truenamize punts and returns what it has so far. 21:18:25 i suspect classify_namestring is erroneously calling FindFirstFile with a name ending in a backslash, which would cause the error in question, but i'm still struggling with getting clisp to build on this machine without cygwin 21:18:41 So ignore-errors might be a good stop gap around that clisp bug. 21:18:48 the comment in classify_namestring claims find_first_file won't fail, but it will if passed a name like C:\ 21:20:01 *p_l|uni* wonders if any win32 implementation correctly supports logical pathnames for windows drives... 21:21:06 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:21:07 -!- bohanlon [~bohanlon@66.170.231.11] has quit [Quit: BUH BYE NOW] 21:21:35 p_l|uni: What do you mean by "correctly supports"? 21:22:05 ok, that's weirder than I thought. it resolves C:\ as the pwd, with a backslash at the end, and then find_first_file fails. both of those things seem wrong to me. 21:22:06 rtoym: I mean, do they properly translate host/device? 21:23:15 to make it funnier, Win95 has host, device and path, while NT got host and path + device aliases only (some stuff got backported to 95, iirc) 21:23:15 So "lpnhost:d1;d2;f.t" gets translated to something like c:\d1\d2\f.t? 21:23:28 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:23:53 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:24:53 rtoym: ok, so what should I pass to -v ? 21:24:57 rtoym: actually, "host:dev:d;d2;f.t" should translate, I think, to "//host/share/d/d2/f.t" (if host is not ".") or "//./volume-path/d/d2/f.t" 21:25:09 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #lisp 21:25:58 fe[nl]ix: Just some random string that you want to part of l-i-v. I use "Snapshot yyyy-mm" for snapshots, "20b" for the 20b release, and so on. 21:26:05 oh, and remember that you can open a device by itself 21:26:11 -!- Mowah [1000@c-d181e555.09-137-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:26:11 rtoym: ok 21:26:26 fe[nl]ix: But that's not the problem. The problem is the (20A Unicode) part. 21:27:24 rtoym: additionally, the pathname *must* be case-preserving and *should* be case-sensitive 21:27:25 aha! 21:27:29 ./tools/build.sh:version=20a 21:27:30 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:51 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:27:54 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:55 fe[nl]ix: Dang!!!!! 21:29:20 p_l|uni: LPNs don't have case. Are you really talking about regular pathnames? 21:30:03 rtoym: can you make them case-preserving? because otherwise you shouldn't really use them on windows :-) 21:30:13 LPNs don't have a dev slot either, so the translation will have to insert the magic /share/d stuff. 21:30:29 rtoym: you should put the version string in its own file and have every build script(sh or lisp) refer to it 21:32:03 -!- andreas [~andreas@pD4B9E904.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:32:05 rtoym: wasn't there a device a host and device slot in LPN? 21:32:06 andreas1 [~andreas@pD4B9E904.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:09 fe[nl]ix: Good idea. But the byte-fasl-file-version can't easily refer to it. 21:32:40 clhs: 19.3.1 21:32:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_ca.htm 21:33:01 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:02 p_l|uni: Nope. 21:33:16 rtoym: apparently I must have misread it somewhere 21:33:25 *p_l|uni* just reread relevant parts of hyperspec 21:33:35 how about (defconstant c:byte-fasl-file-version #.(with-open-file (f ...) (parse-integer (read f) :radix 16))) ? 21:33:37 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-214-150.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 21:33:39 it still makes me wonders about :normal" pathnames 21:34:32 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.69.59] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:41 fe[nl]ix: Yeah, I suppose that's possible. Not sure how that would work when cross-compiling or something. Kind of gross, though. 21:34:52 yeah :D 21:35:25 rtoym: http://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib/blobs/master/src/iolib.asd 21:36:52 Heh. Ok. 21:38:37 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:09 fe[nl]ix: Oh, wait. version=20a isn't the version of cmucl. That's just subdirectory of the bootfiles directory where -B bootfiles are read from. 21:40:33 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:41:02 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:41:14 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:15 p_l|uni: Regular pathnames might match windows pathnames a bit better. But I don't use any lisp on windows. (Well, except for elisp. :-) 21:42:29 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 21:43:44 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu328.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:43:58 fe[nl]ix: why didn't you define a function for that in :iolib.asdf? 21:46:00 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:38 attila_lendvai: laziness, I suppose 21:46:41 -!- Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-137.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 21:47:33 fe[nl]ix: the merciless teeth of the copy-paste devil will bite you somewhere down the road... :) 21:48:14 attila_lendvai: urk. don't remind me 21:48:16 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:39 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:48:59 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:26 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 21:50:13 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:51:38 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 21:52:19 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 21:52:34 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:53:33 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 21:53:41 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 21:54:21 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:58:49 -!- AndroUser [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:04:31 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:04:36 -!- roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 22:06:07 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.199.143] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:10:11 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:11:15 AndroUser [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:17 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.87.84] has joined #lisp 22:15:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:16:23 rtoym: -v has no effect 22:16:25 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.56.136] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:28 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:16:53 -!- splittist [~John@host217-34-132-33.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 22:16:57 fe[nl]ix: Send me the command line you're using. 22:17:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:20:18 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050065104.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:20:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:21:09 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 22:23:59 rtoym: I'll try once more. there was a typo in the command line 22:27:26 Okay, why is the default font on my emacs22 such that 1 and l can't be distinguished? 22:27:50 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 22:29:02 nyef: are you using some TTF-based build? 22:29:17 nyef: change it 22:29:18 Dunno. Whatever's in debian stable. 22:29:40 then check what is used for "fixed" font 22:30:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:31:26 (custom-set-faces 22:31:26 ;; custom-set-faces was added by Custom. 22:31:26 ;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful. 22:31:26 ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance. 22:31:26 ;; If there is more than one, they won't work right. 22:31:27 '(default ((t (:stipple nil :background "black" :foreground "green" :inverse-video nil :box nil :strike-through nil :overline nil :underline nil :slant normal :weight bold :height 72 :width normal :foundry "unknown" :family "Liberation Mono"))))) 22:31:28 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:31:36 Actually, I'm giving some serious thought to updating to unstable. 22:31:41 (custom-set-faces '(default ((t (:stipple nil :background "black" :foreground "green" :inverse-video nil :box nil :strike-through nil :overline nil :underline nil :slant normal :weight bold :height 72 :width normal :foundry "unknown" :family "Liberation Mono"))))) 22:31:43 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.87.84] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 22:31:48 that's mine ^^ 22:31:52 (sorry for the flood) 22:32:40 yates: yours is configured for TTF-supporting Emacs 22:32:40 PTSWorldFriend [~PTSWorldF@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:32:46 Which, iirc, 22 wasn.t 22:32:55 (unless patched) 22:32:59 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:19 "GNU Emacs 23.2.1 (x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.20.1) of 2010-06-03 on xb-01.phx2.fedoraproject.org" 22:33:27 yu 22:33:37 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:50 *yup, you've got TTF-based one. nyef got X11 Font one 22:33:54 nyef: what are you using? 22:34:01 what os? 22:34:20 oh, debian 22:34:49 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:04 ahhh 22:35:05 p_l|uni: TTF == True-Type Font? 22:35:09 Debian lenny, is it? 22:35:11 yates: yes 22:35:36 my, 23's been out for awhile, iirc 22:35:53 Emacs 22 from lenny is apparently patched to support TTF, grab some nice programming font and install it (I recommend either Monaco or Consolas) 22:35:54 I think, for now, I'll chalk it up to another reason to update from lenny, and remember that it's this-1env, not this-lenv. 22:35:54 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:36:23 nyef: lenny is the current stable 22:36:37 Yes, I know. 22:36:55 why not try fedora? 2.6.34.7-56.fc13.x86_64 22:37:04 Though I saw some noise recently about readying squeeze for release? 22:37:19 nyef: lenny-backports got 23.1 22:37:19 yates: Because I don't /like/ Red Hat. 22:38:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:38:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:38:56 -!- AndroUser [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 22:39:24 vtz [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:02 what have you got against them? just curious. 22:43:39 does one of the cl web frameworks support mvc? 22:43:57 weird /etc/ structure and RPM come to mind... though I've been a long-time Mandrake user so... 22:44:21 what's wrong with rpm? 22:44:28 yates: afaik weblocks is mvc-like. What I'm doing is kinda like MVC but doesn't really force anything 22:45:14 yates: I have no idea if things got fixed since then (I stopped using RPM-based distros before Fedora got rolled out, iirc), but RPM could get hilariously broken 22:45:48 is there a simple example of cl-weblocks pulling data from a database query and populating a table on a web page? 22:47:05 yates: I think there is, check their source repo 22:47:28 they have examples of cl-persistence, elephant, and clsql in their examples dir. 22:49:35 read the documentation. :) 22:50:09 rtoym: I used src/tools/build.sh -v 20b -C "" -o "bin/lisp -core lib/cmucl/lib/lisp-sse2.core -batch -noinit -nositeinit" -f sse2 22:50:15 rtoym: and I get the same result 22:50:43 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-214-150.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:50:47 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:51:18 fe[nl]ix: That makes no sense to me. build-4/lisp/lisp -noinit -core build-4/lisp/lisp-sse2.core gives the wrong version? 22:51:37 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:51:48 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:48 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:51:52 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:18 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53:41 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-216-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:53:48 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:55 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-216-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:54:37 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A7387.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:23 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:55:52 Ralith_ [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:56:49 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:34 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:52 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:03:20 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:03:49 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:45 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-214-150.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 23:06:14 -!- andreas1 [~andreas@pD4B9E904.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:09:01 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:16 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 23:10:03 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.87.207] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 23:11:02 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:23 -!- Ralith_ [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 23:12:36 andreas [~andreas@pD4B9E904.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:50 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:14:11 platypine [~joshua@c-76-118-155-244.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: ZzzZZzz...] 23:15:11 Ralith_ [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 23:15:48 damn. Found a competitor who already tried to go into the niche I wanted :/ 23:16:32 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 23:16:33 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:17:03 even worse, more than one... eh.. 23:17:05 what is meants by an "asynchronous link" in this weblocks article? http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/continuations-web.html 23:17:10 s/meants/meant/ 23:17:19 -!- Ralith_ [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:17:21 p_l|uni: So... it's a promising niche, and you "just" have to out-compete them? 23:17:31 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 23:18:37 i expect it means that the javascript elements are talking to the server independent of the state of the whole page. 23:18:40 p_l|uni: yes, it's a chance. Customers wouldn't buy your product if they couldn't "choose" amongst several providers. Your market just increased tenfold. 23:18:57 yates: clicking on the link sends an ajax request to the server, and the response will be used to update only the relevant section of the page. 23:18:58 nyef: maybe, I'll have to see how well do they do. Also, I need to check whether we are actually targeting the same customers :) 23:19:15 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:20:34 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:20:50 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 23:23:25 gonzojive [~red@171.66.89.131] has joined #lisp 23:24:25 the proverbial elephant is force.com, but they require you to use Java-like language so they are more targeted at companies that have their own IT depts. 23:24:40 caelan [~caelan@75-139-77-11.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:10 Mmmm, I think the proverbial elephant is the thing nobody wants to talk about. I think you may be confusing the elephant with the 300-lb gorilla. ;-) 23:25:34 either one hurts when it sits on you 23:26:29 gigamonkey: you mean SAP? I don't think it counts in the market space I'm looking at XD 23:26:47 p_l|uni: no, I'm just nit-picking about your use of idioms. 23:26:54 *gigamonkey* has been wearing his editor's hat a lot lately 23:27:51 gigamonkey: heh. fine. In my defence it's 0027 and I had a stressful day ;P 23:28:55 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 23:29:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:29:55 ah. the term is from ajax terminology, as you've already suspected, but means something a bit different from what was suggested 23:30:41 yates: actually, I envisioned a giant elephant in a room full of porcelain, with other companies being the porcelain. 23:30:57 no Ajax there 23:31:12 p_l|uni: interesting... 23:32:07 it refers to the posting of an XMLHttpRequest "open" method by the browser in which the browser does not wait for a response from the server 23:32:24 I don't think you guys are actually talking to each other. (Well, now you are.) 23:32:37 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 23:32:37 Ah, I see ^^; 23:32:57 *p_l|uni* looked up in backlog, noticed the original question 23:32:59 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-045.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 23:33:15 p_l|uni: i thought you just had a weird sense-of-humor! 23:34:35 ... The old "bull in a china shop" routine? That's not quite the right metaphor, either, though... 23:35:01 nyef: the idiom was slightly different from where I'm from :) 23:35:21 s/from// 23:36:23 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 23:37:18 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:56 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:38:08 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:38:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:40:15 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.89.131] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 23:40:51 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:43:25 anyway, there are four competitors, five if I count Force.com which is closer to GAE, Heroku and similar offerings... 23:46:28 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:47:14 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 23:47:22 -!- vtz [~androirc@router2-border.mreja.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:51:51 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 23:52:14 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:55:57 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-214-150.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:58:22 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BBB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:58:26 qbomb [~qbomb@12.153.205.54] has joined #lisp 23:58:57 -!- Ur5us [~Ur5us@121.98.212.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:59:59 *p_l|uni* still has his previous idea usable, though ^_^