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closed the connection] 00:23:48 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:24:33 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:29 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A45E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:41 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:30:10 -!- Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-140.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:46:59 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:59 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 00:51:02 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 00:51:03 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 00:51:03 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 00:56:35 Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has joined #lisp 00:57:14 BrianRice-mb [~briantric@75-94-47-26.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:21 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 00:57:51 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:58:34 londonmet050 [~0wned@unaffiliated/londonmet050] has joined #lisp 00:58:37 yo 00:58:46 Sorry I lost the book list for LISP 00:58:58 can some one quickly point the book titles 00:59:01 thank you 00:59:30 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 00:59:54 What book list? 01:02:16 Possibly the one on cliki 01:02:21 http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20books perhaps? 01:03:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:07:39 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:07:39 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 01:07:39 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:09:57 thanks 01:12:17 -!- xan_ [~xan@i220-109-191-198.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Quit: 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[~kclifton@S010600123ff34d7d.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 03:33:52 -!- inforichland [~tim@adsl-76-204-103-15.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: inforichland] 03:34:31 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:35:43 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:13 huangho [~vitor@201-35-145-138.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:42:21 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 03:42:35 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:35 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:49:39 longkid [~longkid@113.22.154.173] has joined #lisp 03:50:57 hello all 03:51:08 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-35-145-138.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:51:40 what does this command "clbuild$ ./clbuild dumpcore mcclim" do? 03:51:46 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:42 it causes a core dump 03:53:18 probably saves an image suitable to running mcclim applications. 03:53:34 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-147-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:54:27 Fare: Ah. Maybe I don't need to use it for installing mcclim. 03:56:45 How would you convert a list into an alist? For instance, to collect keyword parameters to a method. 03:57:59 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:53 -!- jpd [~jpd@pine.noqsi.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:58:54 Nevermind, alexandria has plist-alist. 04:04:34 -!- BrianRice-mb [~briantric@75-94-47-26.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice-mb] 04:05:19 demism [~demism@pool-71-168-1-136.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:54 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 04:09:09 -!- demism [~demism@pool-71-168-1-136.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:12:38 Fare: hi 04:13:58 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:15:59 -!- Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:18:02 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:21:18 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 04:23:54 -!- longkid [~longkid@113.22.154.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:27:08 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31:29 Fare [~Fare@64.119.159.126] has joined #lisp 04:34:48 *Fare* puts adhesive tape on the power strip switch so he won't accidentally power down his router again. 04:40:43 ericklc [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 04:43:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:44:39 mek||malloc [~mek@wifi-roaming-255-213.nss.udel.edu] has joined #lisp 04:48:24 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 04:49:13 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:51:05 Would someone be willing to look at a function and provide me some feedback as to why it is not working? The compiler tells me multiple functions are defined by not used when they clearly are. The function in question is 'graph-search' within http://paste.lisp.org/display/115431. I've verified that every other function provided in that file worked correctly. 04:52:13 For example, it graph-search, the compiler tells me 'goalp' and 'successors-fun' are defined but never used. 04:53:03 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:53:36 mek||malloc, are they used? trace them! 04:53:45 format-debugging is good, too 04:53:52 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:02 symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:02 Fare: How could they not be? The goal test for the recursion is (if (funcall goalp ... 04:54:31 can you annotate with the compiler output? 04:54:34 And the invocation of the labels tail recursion is (search start (funcall #'successors-fun 04:54:37 Fare: sorry to disappear like that. 04:54:42 Fare hope i did not wake you :) 04:54:52 Sure, one moment Fare. 04:55:16 mek||malloc: presumably, SEARCH is CL:SEARCH, which means you shouldn't use it as a function name 04:56:07 Style warning, variables 'start', 'goalp', 'successors-fun' defined but never used 04:56:16 Good morning everyone! 04:56:26 Morning :o) 04:56:41 1 error, 1 warning, 3 style conditions 04:57:10 At first I had ... (funcall successors-fun which I changed to (funcall #'successors-fun just to see if it would work 04:57:20 <_3b> mek||malloc: works better to fix errors first before worrying about style warnings 04:57:32 mek||malloc, rebinding search is illegal - everything after that is a red herring. 04:57:45 elopezc [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 04:57:47 Oh, that might be the issue, let me try to fix that. 04:57:48 beach, good night! 04:58:25 -!- joekarma [~joekarma@S0106001b63ab3433.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:21 Fare: The Tunes log seems to have problems. 04:59:38 it does 04:59:39 again? 04:59:46 yeah 04:59:54 Wow. That fixed everything. I am not worthy, I am not worthy! 05:00:11 Thank you _3b and Fare, et al 05:01:14 -!- ericklc [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:01:17 mek||malloc, you weren't, but now you are. 05:01:26 that's called learning, and it's painful. 05:02:08 -!- Hraban [~user@78-21-49-59.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:02:23 Well, I was started to feel like a crappy programmer (which is fitting) but it's nicer to find out it was just a silly mistake. 05:03:21 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.185.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:04:53 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.47.3] has joined #lisp 05:06:39 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:14:22 yeah, you make silly mistakes that can be fixed by a total stranger in a minute on IRC. 05:14:59 whereas if you were a great programmer like us, you'd make clever mistakes that take days to fix after strenuous work by experts. 05:15:07 wait... 05:15:24 Krystof [~csr21@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 05:16:34 *mek||malloc* chuckles 05:19:02 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:21:32 -!- mek||malloc [~mek@wifi-roaming-255-213.nss.udel.edu] has left #lisp 05:25:34 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-128-73.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 05:29:13 Fare: want to see what i am up to? it's a short video. 05:29:25 http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xf610i_bozo-flow-urban-dance-uprising_videogames 05:29:31 sorry about the ad. youtube is down. 05:37:23 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 05:37:59 -!- holycow is now known as moocow 05:38:10 -!- moocow is now known as cowsaysmoo 05:40:50 what are my options for reading and displaying a webcam image live in lisp? 05:40:53 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 05:41:04 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:42:02 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-1-3.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:43:48 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quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:55:57 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-78-36-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:00:23 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:28 -!- tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:06:01 Blkt [~user@93-33-133-222.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:06:36 p[o0-;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;++ 06:06:55 good day everyone 06:07:36 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 06:08:52 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:09:44 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 06:11:09 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 06:12:48 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-117-17.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 06:15:19 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 06:17:16 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 06:17:39 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:18:44 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 06:19:31 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:20:57 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:39 mega1 [~quassel@pool-05177.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:23:55 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:27:16 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:33:49 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:40 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:37:43 iley [~iley@2001:67c:7c:40dc:224:1dff:fec0:b7ec] has joined #lisp 06:41:29 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:57:21 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:58:21 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 07:00:59 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:02:34 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082AB85.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:16 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo_] 07:05:48 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B32735D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:06:42 -!- demism [~demism@pool-71-168-1-136.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 07:10:25 splittist [~John@125-164.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:10:29 morning 07:11:29 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.216] has joined #lisp 07:11:41 Akisame [~adrien@AStDenis-106-1-98-102.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:12:20 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-119.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 07:14:03 hello splittist 07:14:06 hello Blkt 07:14:18 hi 07:18:55 -!- Akisame [~adrien@AStDenis-106-1-98-102.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 07:21:22 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 07:32:04 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-05177.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:35:03 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:42 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:38:13 Blkt: hi, sorry about last evening. my irc client was on another virtual desktop and i only checked it when shutting down 07:38:33 gah, should have been a /msg 07:38:39 lol 07:40:57 pjb: seems handy, thanks 07:46:59 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:47:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-140.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:47:50 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:48:45 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:52:59 vu3rdd` [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 07:53:12 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755dea.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:20 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu205.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 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[~quassel@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: ssd fw + os upgrade .. bye bye world(?) .. :)] 08:30:20 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.123.211] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:34:09 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914123505]] 08:34:54 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007046.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 08:35:11 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:37:35 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-114-244.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:38:38 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007046.public.telering.at] has quit [Client Quit] 08:49:54 younder [~jthing@124.202.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:50:18 -!- flip214 is now known as flip215 08:50:40 when oh when is this 'Land of Lisp' book supposed to become available. 08:51:02 I have waited now for over a year! 08:51:10 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-40-82-251-182-5.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:42 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:36 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:58:50 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 08:58:54 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:59:57 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-119.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 09:06:35 serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06d231.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:38 Good morning! 09:06:47 -!- flip215 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 09:06:47 flip215 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 09:07:15 -!- gadek [~konrad@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:07:19 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:08:40 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:09:34 good morning 09:15:13 nostoi [~nostoi@83.50.3.204] has joined #lisp 09:19:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-140.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:21:23 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@83.50.3.204] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:31:06 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:32:56 good morning 09:34:21 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B248.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:46 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 09:36:55 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:37:15 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 09:37:20 oh oh how good it is.. 09:37:32 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:37:56 ;) 09:41:17 ohih0wru [~ohih0wru@80.233.141.30] has joined #lisp 09:42:00 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 09:44:14 jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 09:44:23 well now that the Europeans are in let's discuss Lisp. 09:46:34 is there a Lisp eq of format (fortran) or pack (perl)? 09:47:32 younder: what does it do? 09:48:09 younder: there is FORMAT in CL, but i'm not sure it's what you want 09:48:26 clhs format 09:48:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 09:48:37 jdz, parse text on a column by column basis by position. 09:49:15 jdz, format in Lisp is like printf (sort of) in Lisp. 09:49:37 dto: there's that russian guy who did face detection recently 09:49:50 he had the joke about not shaving his beard for a project 09:51:10 his blog name is a number. something like 24-49 or something. 09:51:26 9/11? 09:51:43 :) 09:51:58 *Xach* can't find it just now 09:52:01 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.2.85] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:52:42 Xach: that will teach you not to use the bookmarking! 09:53:09 13-49? 09:54:23 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:54:27 http://13-49.blogspot.com/2009/09/eye-region-tracking-in-common-lisp.html 09:55:46 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:56:00 I prefer ImageMagic.. 09:56:26 H4ns` [~user@p579F8A54.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:24 Calling in on the OS shell for /help/ on heavy duty tasks usually pays off. 10:00:18 -!- H4ns [~user@p579F87E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:00:30 Particularly image processing. 10:00:57 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:01:08 younder: what's this OS shell you're referring to? 10:02:48 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-1-3.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:11 jdz image magic has a C interface and a shell (linux) interface. 10:03:39 bash, sh,ksh whatever 10:03:47 demism [~demism@pool-71-168-1-136.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:59 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:04:07 younder: so you meant "using specific applications" for heavy duty tasks pays off? 10:04:29 I meant utillities. 10:04:43 yes, they have nothing to do with shell or OS 10:04:55 no 10:05:05 anyway, if people want to implement something on their own, they are free to do it 10:05:18 absolutely 10:05:36 kick him 10:05:49 in the eye? 10:06:41 I think I was recommending ImageMagic to doing your own image processing as it will save you some grief. 10:07:37 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:39 -!- demism [~demism@pool-71-168-1-136.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:57 demism [~demism@pool-71-168-1-136.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:07 Akisame [~adrien@AStDenis-106-1-1-11.w81-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:08:53 younder: grief? I think the guy in the blog post mentioned he enjoyed doing what he did... 10:09:58 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:10:30 -!- Akisame [~adrien@AStDenis-106-1-1-11.w81-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 10:11:49 -!- iley [~iley@2001:67c:7c:40dc:224:1dff:fec0:b7ec] has left #lisp 10:12:39 -!- demism [~demism@pool-71-168-1-136.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:12:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 10:14:29 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:38 Does SBCL support threads properly under windows, now? 10:14:46 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:16:19 (I'm running Ubuntu.) 10:16:33 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-119.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:16:41 which is relevant to the question how? 10:16:48 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:56 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 10:18:52 or was it just to show that you don't have genuine interest in the answer to the question? 10:19:36 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-119.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 10:21:47 So you basically want to know how to call a shell command from SBCL? 10:22:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-203-148.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:22:41 http://www.xhbml.com/archives/42 10:25:27 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:26:44 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-119.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:28:36 talking to invisible people? 10:28:43 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-119.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 10:29:10 jdz! cmm 10:30:41 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:32:10 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:33:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-203-148.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:33:43 -!- Ur5us [~Ur5us@121.98.212.19] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:36:50 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.187] has joined #lisp 10:37:12 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 10:43:43 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:43:46 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 10:43:46 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 10:43:46 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:47:22 -!- svr1 [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 10:47:57 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 10:55:13 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:56:50 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240::54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:57:18 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-147-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:54 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:26 timor [~timor@port-92-195-156-218.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:01:28 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-156-218.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:02:45 xan_ [~xan@i220-109-190-65.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:03:26 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-133-222.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please!] 11:04:15 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:05:51 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 11:07:48 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:11:32 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.125.187] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:12:03 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 11:13:28 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:14:57 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 11:20:07 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:20:45 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:23:46 -!- xan_ [~xan@i220-109-190-65.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:24:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:25:30 xan_ [~xan@i220-109-190-65.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:27:47 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:28:24 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:28:25 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:28:53 andreas2 [~andreas@p4FF2A0AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:03 Morning! 11:29:10 morning 11:29:23 -!- andreas2 is now known as andreas 11:29:25 or rather afternono 11:29:29 afternoon 11:29:30 :) 11:29:54 I' currently wondering whether anybody is still using sbcl, asdf-install and hunchentoot. 11:29:56 -!- xan_ [~xan@i220-109-190-65.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 11:30:00 I ran into a number of problems. 11:30:09 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:30:30 problem one; current sbcl after installation cannot find ASDF-UTILITIES. 11:30:46 andreas: try quicklisp, it works really really well. 11:31:09 H4ns: I tried, it looks good, but it doesn't contain all the packages I need yet. 11:31:18 andreas: which ones? 11:31:34 chrnybo: nuclblog and dependencies. 11:31:41 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:31:53 (could probably manually add the one or two i need, though) 11:32:01 andreas: i see. getting those into quicklisp sounds more promising than trying to bang your head against the widely unloved asdf-install 11:32:07 andreas: as far as i know quicklisp can and will use your locally installed packages (if any) 11:32:35 (i'm yet to try out quicklisp) 11:32:49 Next thing: everybody seems to be using lift for tests these days. 11:32:59 And that won't compile with sbcl either. 11:33:03 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:16 andreas: then i doubt everybody is using it... 11:33:22 *H4ns* hates it. 11:33:25 *nyef* still uses SB-RT. 11:34:25 rudi [~rudi@mineralogix.ifi.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:34:36 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:34:42 jdz: I'm wildly exaggerating, of course. 11:35:41 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 11:35:47 Thing is, I used to be able to get a working hunchentoot by getting a recent sbcl, type (require :asdf-install)(asdf-install:install :hunchentoot) and it just worked. 11:35:48 If popularity is the criterion for choosing something, then you're using the wrong language. :-) 11:35:55 That broke. 11:36:10 But I guess I have to look at quicklisp then... 11:36:37 andreas: it certainly works with quicklisp and if it doesn't, you'll find someone who can help easily. 11:36:45 Ok. 11:37:01 sbcl is still the compiler of choice? or has it been abandoned while I wasn't looking? 11:37:24 Up to .48 for this month, so it's still going. 11:37:29 andreas: depends on who you ask. it is popular in this channel. ccl has seen growth in popularity. 11:37:31 seems to be very much alive and kicking to me... 11:38:13 jdz: I was a bit surprised about the broken asdf. 11:38:21 (or, should i rather say: does not seem any deader than usual) 11:38:54 .48? Why did I download .43? 11:38:55 andreas: ASDF is not broken, recent SBCL has ASDF2 included; and don't confuse ASDF with ASDF-INSTALL 11:39:17 andreas: it's 1.0.43.48 11:39:53 jdz: It used to be the case that (require :asdf) would load :asdf-utilities. It doesn't anymore, and it breaks stuff. 11:40:14 And as far as I can see, quicklisp uses asdf too. 11:40:29 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115395 <-- and it seems I'm not alone with this problem. 11:40:46 Manually loading asdf.lisp will do the right thing to provide asdf-utilities... 11:41:16 andreas: as i said, SBCL now includes ASDF2; your packages are assuming ASDF 11:41:43 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cqpxiojcbibjbhbs] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:42:12 andreas: but i maybe upgrading to SBCL 1.0.43.37 would solve your problem 11:42:23 that release of SBCL includes ASDF2.009 11:42:34 jdz: interestingly, the asdf.lisp does declare an asdf-utilities, and manually loading said file will do the right thing. 11:42:40 but thanks, I'm going to try this. 11:43:02 andreas: well, it depends on which asdf.lisp file you're looking at 11:43:19 sbcl-1.0.43/contrib/asdf/asdf.lisp. :) 11:43:39 (i hope I don't come across as complaining here, I'm just confused and need orientation) 11:44:39 andreas: i'd try the latest ASDF 11:44:52 ASDF2 that is 11:45:27 The one in the contrib directory claims to be 2.004. 11:45:27 update slime 11:45:46 andreas: yes, that's the one shipped with sbcl-1.0.43 11:46:11 or at least blow away the slime fasls 11:46:12 andreas: at sbcl-1.0.43.37 ASDF has been updated to 2.009 11:46:31 Where would I get 1.0.43.48? Right from the repo? 11:46:58 you don't need to update asdf or sbcl. you need to delete the fasls which refer to packages which no longer exist in new asdf 11:47:01 andreas: yeah, that's where i get it :) 11:47:31 Hi nikodemus! Now that sounds like a clue! (although I hallucinate having done that) 11:47:53 andreas: git clone git://sbcl.boinkor.net/sbcl.git # if you want the bleeding edge 11:48:03 andreas: the squirrel says don't worry about the hallucinations 11:48:54 All I wanted to do is connect my blog to twitter, and there I am, compiling bleeding edge compilers. :) 11:49:08 andreas: if your error is the same one as in that paste (in the sense that it comes from loading swank-asdf.fasl), then you misremember -- or have recompiled it with an older asdf loaded since then 11:52:42 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-193-125.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 11:54:11 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:55:51 Hm. Compiling the bleeding edge compiler doesn't work, and the stack trace is truncated. 11:56:43 ... because my disk is full. my fault. :) 11:56:50 araujo [~araujo@192.100.124.156] has joined #lisp 11:56:50 -!- araujo [~araujo@192.100.124.156] has quit [Changing host] 11:56:51 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:57:29 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-120-194.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:58:54 nyef: Is your vop lifetimes thing updated from the version I got long ago? 11:59:18 rtoym: Yeah, I have half an emacs mode attached to it now. 11:59:38 But unlike the original, it no longer works on macro-generated VOPs. 12:00:10 Why is that? You need the actual source? 12:00:24 What does the emacs mode do? 12:00:57 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:00:59 I'm hoping to make it so you can open the lifetime view from looking at the source for a VOP, tweak the lifetimes graphically, and have it write the updated lifetimes back. 12:02:47 Neat. One question about interpreting the graph. If the graph shows the lifetime of one var ends and another begins, can they use the same register? I was never quite clear on that. 12:03:17 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:18 They can, but probably won't. 12:03:32 I usually assume that the register allocator is actively malicious about this. 12:03:56 You might find http://www.lisphacker.com/codex/001-sbcl-vops.txt to be of interest here. 12:03:59 Ok, so there has to be a real gap in lifetimes. 12:04:34 rtoym: probably even less likely for CMUCL. sbcl's allocator has logic to try and reuse CMUCL, while the original tried to fairly rotate through them 12:04:59 No, they can abut, but the allocator is quirky. 12:05:06 And http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/voplife.el is the latest version. 12:05:22 *to try and reuse registers 12:06:10 e-future_ [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 12:06:21 The :target option is particularly irritating, as it doesn't do what one would naively expect. 12:06:56 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:25 nyef: Thanks for the summary and voplife.el. I'll take a look at it. 12:07:47 urandom__ [~user@p548A2D8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:30 nyef: can we get that into doc/internals-notes? 12:09:44 Hmm. cl-plplot and plplot are nice. Until you do something bad and crash plplot. Then plplot no longer works, and you have to start lisp again to get plotting to work. 12:09:54 (of course the internals manual would be even better, but just sticking it in internals-notes doesn't take any time, and make git grep find it) 12:10:48 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11:54 Playing around with vop lifetimes is kind of fun. Until you have to change the vop and forget about the lifetimes and things then get packed incorrectly. More debugging fun! 12:12:51 somehow it seems to me that the lifetime stuff could be made more automatic 12:13:01 nikodemus: I suppose we can. I was thinking that it could be folded into a compiler-hackers-guide, though. 12:13:37 nikodemus: I was thinking that too. After all the vop has access (more or less) to the instructions. 12:13:53 The thing about lifetimes is that the defaults usually work pretty well, unless you need an argument to be available at result-time. 12:14:12 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:47 nyef: if you have time to do that, i would love to see it happen -- but if you're pressed for time then internals-notes is a good halfway house. putting it in the manual can happen later just as well 12:15:04 -!- e-future_ [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:15:13 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 12:15:23 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Client Quit] 12:16:15 bleeding edge sbcl, (ql:quickload "hunchentoot"), and I'm a happy camper. 12:16:22 Works like a charm. 12:16:27 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 12:16:49 Tell you what. Remind me about it once we're on 1.0.44.x. 12:17:01 ok :) 12:17:09 Thanks to all... will figure out how to hack quicklisp now. 12:23:45 beata__ [beata@she.hatesme.com] has joined #lisp 12:24:37 LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:26:18 I have a list x that is a list of x,y pairs and i want to sort them using function (defun sort-list (otherthing pairs) ) Can I use sort with the :key parm for this? 12:27:00 clhs sort 12:27:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sort_.htm 12:27:55 beata__: To sort, you provide a comparison function. How do you want to compare your pairs? 12:28:31 beach: clhs disagrees with you. 12:29:13 beach: sort-list returns a number so i was thinking (sort list #'< :key 'sort-list) 12:29:21 but not sure how to give the key 2 parms 12:29:58 gadek [~konrad@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 12:29:59 beata__: you give it the pair itself, look at clhs examples. 12:30:12 i am reading 12:30:26 ASau`: In what way does the CLHS disagree with me? 12:31:02 beach: in existence of :key function? 12:31:05 *ASau`* shrugs. 12:31:34 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.136] has joined #lisp 12:31:35 ASau`: Did I say the :key function doesn't exist? I hope not! 12:31:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 12:31:56 beach: alright, it doesn't matter at all. 12:32:00 beata__: the :key function determines how to compute the thing that is to be compared from your pair, for instance the first or the second item in the pair. 12:33:15 beata__: As ASau` says, you give your :key function one single pair, and it should return something that the comparison function can be applied to. 12:33:24 (basically it is what you do with "select * from ... order by KEY") 12:34:31 beach: The problem is i need to give key function 2 parms the pairs and another item. 12:34:40 either that or re think how im doing it 12:35:00 Why do you want to give 2 parameters?? 12:35:36 beata__: you can use a lambda as the key function. 12:35:41 beata__: Could you please tell us how you are planning to determine whether one pair is smaller than the other? 12:35:43 the first parameter is needed to calculate the way each pair needs to be sorted 12:36:07 beata__: You don't sort a pair. 12:36:48 beata__: You sort a list of pairs, and you compare two pairs to see which one is "less" than the other. 12:37:13 beata__: (sort '((3 2) (2 3) (2 1) (3 1) (1 3)) #'< :key #'car) 12:37:20 beata__: (sort '((3 2) (2 3) (2 1) (3 1) (1 3)) #'< :key #'cadr) 12:38:16 ASau`: beach thanks il see if i can work it out 12:38:47 ASau`: Not a good idea to sort a quoted list. 12:39:06 Xach: I know. 12:39:48 One can always insert "copy-list". 12:40:06 ASau`: you're providing wrong sample code to newbies? 12:40:11 ASau`: intentionally? 12:40:25 Alright, alright. 12:40:41 beata__: (sort (copy-list '((3 2) (2 3) (2 1) (3 1) (1 3))) #'< :key #'car) 12:40:46 anyway, i'd use FIRST and SECOND functions instead of CAR and CADR, because the "pairs" are not really pairs 12:40:54 ASau`: That doesn't fix the problem. 12:41:00 beata__: (sort (copy-list '((3 2) (2 3) (2 1) (3 1) (1 3))) #'< :key #'cadr) 12:41:28 Ok, and getting the packages not in quicklisp yet to load was as simple as linking the asd files into the right place, and quickloading them. 12:41:30 Ok, I take that back. It fixes the problem. 12:41:57 andreas: hooray 12:42:18 Xach: good work! :) 12:42:23 Though I don't quite understand why the reader wants to reuse previously built literal. 12:42:27 -!- ohih0wru [~ohih0wru@80.233.141.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:43:01 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:44:23 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 12:45:46 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:23 ASau`: because it's allowed to! 12:47:25 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 12:48:13 #'second is arguably a clearer way to extract the second element in a list. 12:51:12 andreas: do you use nuclblog? 12:51:31 Xach: I do, yes. 12:52:02 andreas: not even slyrus wants to use it :) 12:52:12 andreas: does it work ok with modern hunchentoot? 12:52:19 Are there alternatives? 12:52:29 I don't know. 12:52:55 It works with 1.0.0. I'll find out whether it works with 1.1.1 later this day, I guess. :) 12:52:56 dlowe [~dlowe@c-76-24-31-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:10 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:54:37 When I looked at it last year, it certainly was better than having to write everything myself. 12:54:53 And I don't mind a bit of hacking. 12:56:42 mrSpec [~Spec@D8-805-router.ket.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 12:56:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@D8-805-router.ket.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Changing host] 12:56:42 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:59:52 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:17 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-128-73.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:02:10 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:10:04 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:52 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 13:10:59 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:11:37 silenius [~silenus@p549470B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:45 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:05 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:16:11 -!- gadek [~konrad@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 13:16:37 hypercube31 [~hypercube@66.90.18.146] has joined #lisp 13:16:41 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 13:17:31 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:21:55 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 13:22:34 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:26:33 davazp [~user@83.55.183.181] has joined #lisp 13:26:38 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-119.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:33:46 -!- dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:37:08 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 13:39:53 Why has nobody written a qrcode generator in CL? 13:40:04 That should be so easy! 13:40:16 with vecto? 13:40:28 so easy, even ZPNG or skippy. 13:41:07 could be a fun weekend project 13:41:25 Exactly! How about it, Internet? 13:42:28 jwz invokes the lazyweb 13:45:24 abstrakt [~abstrakt@unaffiliated/abstrakt] has joined #lisp 13:45:35 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:52 I guess that the main encoding/decoding functions should simply output resp. expect as input a 2-dimensional bit-array. That could then be wrapped by image processing. 13:47:24 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:06 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.183.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:19 Xach: I haven't found a good enough spec on how to write one... 13:52:16 right now there are some, might get it to work... 13:52:21 lnostdal [~Lars@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:13 might be useful later 13:53:53 Joreji [~thomas@134.61.78.56] has joined #lisp 13:54:10 Where can a specification be obtained? All I find is behind paywalls. 13:54:11 obkt write apps, not libraries! :) 13:56:01 ohih0wru [ohih0wru@78.84.189.39] has joined #lisp 13:56:39 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:56:44 http://www.swetake.com/qr/qr2_en.html 13:56:54 http://www.swetake.com/qr/qr1_en.html <--- first page 13:57:40 mal__: the QR-code would be used for printout tagging 13:57:51 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:58:19 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:26 afk 13:58:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 13:59:02 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:00:31 jpd [~jpd@pine.noqsi.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:52 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-39-143.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:03:05 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:03:41 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:03:41 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Changing host] 14:03:41 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 14:04:07 -!- silenius [~silenus@p549470B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:04:40 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:05:53 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 14:09:29 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 14:09:29 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 14:09:29 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:12:13 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 14:13:42 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 14:13:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 14:13:42 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:14:43 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:16:01 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:21:35 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:22:34 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:22:40 -!- rudi [~rudi@mineralogix.ifi.uio.no] has quit [Quit: rudi] 14:23:17 araujo [~araujo@213.28.64.66] has joined #lisp 14:23:17 -!- araujo [~araujo@213.28.64.66] has quit [Changing host] 14:23:17 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:24:14 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0842.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:33 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:27:22 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:29:47 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-47-79.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:30:01 anyone have recommendations for learning functional programming? specifically any ideas for a good project or task that would be suitable for or well served by functional programming? 14:30:55 We're lisp people, not necessarily functional-programming people. 14:31:26 nyef: so I guess that means no... at least from you anyway 14:31:40 abstrakt: compilers are probably the domain in which functional programming is most useful 14:31:41 isn't lisp a language that is or can be highly "functional" ? 14:31:41 in fact, given the current programming language ecosystem, most people who use lisp probably don't use it to program in a (exclusively) functional style. 14:31:42 Anything that you can do with procedural programming you can do with functional programming, although some things are harder than others. 14:31:50 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-6-34.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:32:11 I'd suggest implementing some functional versions of basic ADTs. 14:32:18 A functional queue, for example. 14:32:20 Zhivago: sorry what's an ADT? 14:32:30 Abstract Data Type. 14:32:32 This does not bode well. 14:32:35 Zhivago: ahh, implement a queue or deque you mean? 14:32:46 well I know what those are 14:32:53 I just didn't know the acronym, so sue me 14:33:12 abstrakt: you also have seen implementations of them in any functional language? 14:33:14 nice attitude, hotshot. 14:33:32 I've implemented stacks, queues and deques and the like in C and C++ 14:33:36 abstrakt: You might start with something simpler, like a stack, which is trivial. 14:33:46 linked lists, etc 14:33:54 Zhivago: ok thx for the suggestion 14:34:09 abstrakt: a great task to learn would be a QR code generator! 14:34:22 Xach: and what's QR? 14:34:24 shh 14:34:27 and please don't say "this doesn't bode well" 14:34:37 I'm learning, cut me some slack 14:34:50 Ok, sorry. My suggestion was not made entirely seriously. 14:35:08 I'm more than willing to google or take links to manual pages or tutorials 14:35:09 abstrakt: A qr code is a 2d bitmap that encodes some data, a little like a UPC code 14:35:13 abstrakt: Xach was just surprised that no-one made a QR Code (one of the 2D barcode systems) generator in CL, and started egging people to make one. 14:35:26 They're popular in Japan. 14:35:38 p_l|uni: ahh, ok... hmm, I don't know that I have access to hardware to do the barcode scanning 14:35:48 abstrakt: no need to scan, i was just thinking of producing 14:35:48 You don't need it for generation. 14:35:49 Zhivago: not only in Japan - QR Code is the only one universally available on all mobile phones 14:36:02 oh right, just a generator of barcodes 14:36:09 I'm sure I could implement a "virtual scanner" too 14:36:11 abstrakt: they are usually scanned with cameras built in mobile phones :) 14:36:37 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:36:44 p_l|uni: yeah I've started to see those ipod type barcode blocks on plenty of posters 14:37:18 abstrakt: they aren't actually related to iPods at all, but QR code took over most other standards when it came to "consumer" use 14:37:38 DataMatrix got a lot of traction in industrial market, afaik 14:37:45 well, yeah whatever, ipod is a lot shorter than typing out the name of ever portable/mobile device that might be able to read those things 14:37:54 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:55 dcrawford_ [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:55 -!- dcrawford_ [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:38:07 abstrakt: you mean shorter than "QR code"? 14:38:18 or just "QR" :) 14:38:20 abstrakt: Spend 5 minutes to implement a functional stack. :) 14:38:28 aight 14:39:36 status report: nuclblog w/ sbcl 1.0.43.48, Hunchentoot 1.1.1, Quickload, up and running. 14:39:53 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.251.189] has joined #lisp 14:39:54 andreas: cool 14:40:06 andreas: nice. how about the auth & vhost stuff? 14:40:07 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.160.132] has joined #lisp 14:40:26 Xach: that's required to get nuclblog to work. 14:40:39 hmm, so with a QR code, basically I'd just need to read it into a 2 dimensional array and then parse it 14:40:39 andreas: excellent, thanks for trying. 14:40:46 -!- ohih0wru [ohih0wru@78.84.189.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:40:46 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.160.132] has left #lisp 14:40:49 Xach: i cloned the git and linked the .asd. 14:41:23 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:41:41 it's the par you "just" do that's the most work. 14:41:48 *part 14:41:55 abstrakt: read into a an array? read from where? directly from camera? 14:42:30 well, from an image... parsing a bitmap/jpeg like that into a 2D array should be fairly straightforward I would guess 14:42:39 Xach: Quicklisp was remakably well-behaved. Documentation for adding your own dists would be my most urgent request (and that's not really urgent). 14:42:47 abstrakt: yeah, if you got fair and square picture of it 14:42:51 andreas: glad to hear it 14:42:59 abstrakt: not actually what you get when people take pictures with phones 14:43:06 demism [~demism@pool-71-168-1-136.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:11 *p_l|uni* will soon have a report on QuickLisp in business case :) 14:43:14 jdz: I'm well aware of this 14:43:23 *Xach* doesn't care about reading a QR code, just generating one 14:43:33 abstrakt: ok, it just sounded as if you were not. 14:44:12 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:23 pedantic hackers, trust me guys, I'm just as dubious and skeptical about the relative intelligence of someone I've never met, but seriously... I'm not a newbie, only relatively new to LISP and functional programming, and yes I know that the two don't necessarily go hand in hand 14:45:36 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:56 jdz: sounds as if you were making a lot of assumptions and jumping to a lot of conclusions, which IMO neither deductive nor inductive logic should really lead you to, but thanks for the vote of confidence 14:46:02 I'm gonna go play around with stuff now 14:46:33 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 14:46:56 abstrakt: sounds as if you're making a lot of assumptions and jumping to a lot of conclusions 14:47:23 yeah, like calling Lisp "LISP" 14:47:32 w/e 14:47:36 -!- abstrakt [~abstrakt@unaffiliated/abstrakt] has left #lisp 14:48:26 suddenly me pointing out that i may have misunderstood someone does not sound like the best thing to do 14:48:40 did we just add to the infamous "unhelpful irate smug weenies" stereotype? 14:48:52 Actually, I think stassats' comment was the over-the-top bit. 14:49:05 yay! 14:49:14 I think he started out being an unhelpful irate smug non-lisp weenie 14:49:20 so I'm not sure it's a loss 14:49:25 (Then again, I was considering trying to make a point about inductive logic, which really /does/ lead to such conclusions.) 14:49:40 dlowe: he started it! 14:49:49 he's gone guys 14:49:55 :( 14:49:55 If he doesn't write me a CL QR code generator, I will be very cross with you all. 14:49:58 sure. that's why we're talking behind his back 14:50:39 and i know that recognizing QR from pictures is not all that hard, either 14:51:31 -!- benny [~benny@i577A20DB.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:52:28 -!- flip215 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:12 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:42 Well, causality is only inferred from coincidence and anti-coincidence, so it's all we have for dealing with the real world. 14:55:28 i don't have a horse in the race, but i don't think he was particularly irate or smug 14:55:39 Just a little illiterate. 14:56:27 i have no idea if he overestimated his own abilities or not, but i'm saying that not knowing the acronym for ADT and not knowing what a QR code is doesn't really tell anything 14:56:48 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:48 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:56:48 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 14:56:50 I don't know what a QR code is 14:57:08 see? 14:57:21 i have seen them, just did not know they are called QR codes 14:57:59 silenius [~silenus@p549470B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:09 this channel is full of illiterate people! 14:58:56 -!- elopezc [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:59:01 stassats: yeah, real lisp programmers keep their functions to the size that fits into a single QR code! 14:59:16 which version? 14:59:19 I've almost only seen grammatical sentences so far. Reads literate to me. 14:59:45 pkhuong: literacy today means being able to draw QR codes with a pencil on a paper 15:00:22 jdz: the largest version can contain 4k characters, i'd stay away from such functions 15:01:14 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:31 stassats: with the highest error correction? 15:01:44 sorry, i'm too illiterate, have not read the spec 15:02:02 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-251-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:06 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-251-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:24 1,273 for 8bit binary data 15:02:53 (with 30% ECC) 15:03:00 nikodemus: The first problem was the opening question: Inductive reasoning tells us that people who start off by asking about functional programming are usually badly misinformed. 15:04:02 is that their fault? 15:04:22 ... Yes! 15:04:30 But it also sets the tone for the entire subsequent conversation. 15:06:33 nyef: true. but i don't think he tried to refute any sensible corrections. quite the opposite, we was willing to listen to facts. "abstrakt> isn't lisp a language that is or can be highly "functional" ?" then he got told that it isn't really, and he got of the functional horse right away 15:06:58 -!- silenius [~silenus@p549470B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:03 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:08:26 The whole side thing with QR codes didn't help. 15:09:15 hehe 15:09:32 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724574.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:09:45 hello all. 15:10:14 cl-curl or drakma? or any other client? Any commentary 15:10:16 ? 15:10:27 drakma 15:10:32 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:44 guaqua: for any reason in particular? 15:10:55 Shaftoe: drakma's written in Lisp 15:11:03 and it's been known to work 15:11:09 *Xach* is a happy drakma user 15:11:10 great., 15:11:13 i've never had any problems with it 15:11:13 that's what I wanted to hear. 15:11:16 thanks much 15:11:21 no prob 15:11:32 also, cl-curl isn't in quicklisp :) 15:11:36 except for ssl support, which isn't written in lisp 15:11:40 *Xach* is not sure where cl-curl is 15:11:55 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12:03 oh, from the cl-curl project page: 15:12:11 » I have found that DRAKMA will do everything that I wrote cl-curl for, with the bonus that it is pure CL. I am maintaining the information below for those that need it, but suggest that DRAKMA be investigated in preference to cl-curl. 15:12:21 (all hail edi-weitz. I seem to be using most of his projects) =) 15:12:47 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:12:54 so, who want to write SSL in pure lisp? 15:13:19 isn't there something like iron-x? 15:13:20 heh... SSL? this is madness 15:13:36 guaqua: ironclad 15:13:52 stassats: I do, I do! But not today. 15:14:05 drakma is truly better than Curl :) 15:14:12 I've heard nothing but horror stories on the state of the OpenSSL libraries. 15:14:24 stassats: me, but it's pretty low on the priority list 15:14:28 so I don't think you can much depend on using that as a reverse engineering source. 15:14:35 elopezc [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:14:44 you'll have to start from the spec, which is daunting. 15:14:48 why do you need to reverse engineer it? 15:15:20 by reverse-engineer, I meant the softer kind: i.e. looking at existing source code to figure out what is done in what circumstance. 15:15:27 i always start from a readable description, if any 15:15:36 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:50 Shaftoe: you mean harder kind? 15:15:54 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:16:00 heh =) 15:16:04 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:16:18 stassats: however, if you were also interested it would go way up on that list :) 15:16:21 unless it's thoroughly commented and idiomatic 15:16:34 yes, which OpenSSL isn't. 15:16:45 *Xach* is reminded of the cdb format, which is incompletely described in prose 15:17:21 fe[nl]ix: i haven't yet researched what it takes to implement it 15:17:41 or the x86-64 calling convention 15:18:01 i challenge anyone to implement it from just the abi description 15:18:39 Heh. Even if someone /did/ implement it from the ABI description, odds are it wouldn't work. 15:18:55 amusingly, even the llvm guys didn't manage. to implement it you _have_ to read gcc source, because the abi description isn't just cryptic, but plain incomplete 15:18:59 stassats: you need the cryptoraphy algos and the network protocol which is described in a few RFCs 15:19:11 stassats: last time I looked ironclad was missing a few things 15:19:16 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.173.2] has joined #lisp 15:19:21 Xach: right. and written in djb-c. 15:20:00 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 15:20:12 and my mind is almost untouched by any cryptography 15:20:36 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:08 minion: paste 115441 15:21:08 Paste number 115441: "apropos, here's my best attempt at x86-64 abi" by nikodemus in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/115441 15:21:34 (in case someone is motivated at trying to implement by-value structures for sbcl) 15:21:36 stassats: a lot of work would have to go into proof-reading ironclad and making sure it isn't vulnerable to known crypto attack techniques(timing attacks, etc...) 15:22:08 to the best of my knowledge that implementation is gcc-compatible -- at least all the test-cases i threw at it come out right 15:23:17 (aside from the FIXME's in there, of course) 15:23:27 pkhuong: I've grown to kinda like djb-c. 15:23:54 sure. the comma is clearly underused. 15:24:44 fe[nl]ix: is there a central repository of sorts that lists the known crypto attacks? 15:25:18 without that, methinks this is a really unbelievably difficult task 15:26:05 Shaftoe: I have no idea. Schneier's blog, perhaps ? 15:26:20 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:26:26 *andreas* has a clue or two about crypto. 15:26:35 what's djb-c? 15:26:46 C written by DJB 15:26:56 -!- beata__ [beata@she.hatesme.com] has left #lisp 15:27:00 jdz: d.j. bernstein has a distinct personal style 15:27:34 fe[nl]ix: not sure about Schneier. I have the impression that his blog is all about laymanification of crypto (which is necessary). but I rarely see him go into super technical issues. 15:27:52 and djbfft is something else altogether. "compile in -O1, otherwise gcc's reordering and CSE pessimises the output" ;) 15:28:32 I doubt that there exists any concise list of attacks OpenSSL defends against. 15:28:55 One could wade through cv.mitre.org, and list all the pitfalls they have been running into... 15:29:02 cve.mitre.org even. 15:29:12 speaking of Schneier's blog. the current top article is interesting. Apparently they were able to circumvent all of that orwellian technology. I am impressed. 15:29:26 *cmm-* swears loudly at /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/02-common-lisp-controller-userdir.conf 15:30:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:30:05 clc... well, you asked for it 15:30:07 I mean, wtf? which implementation/asdf is clctested with? 15:30:34 cmm-: Yeah, I hit that last night... And I uninstalled clc ages back. 15:30:39 well, I install sbcl by hand, but for other implementations debian packaging is sort of handy, and they require clc 15:31:01 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@c-69-181-60-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:01 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@c-69-181-60-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:31:01 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 15:31:07 nyef: how did you hit it, then? 15:31:17 does normal ASDF2 read that clc-supplied file accidentally? 15:31:17 -!- demism [~demism@pool-71-168-1-136.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:31:21 Sure. Same here. I had an SBCL build failure (all fourteen contribs), first build since the update to ASDF 2.009. 15:31:30 lichtblau: It's /on purpose/. 15:31:36 I found the long list of places where ASDF2 looks for config files rather scary. 15:31:40 gah 15:32:03 The less you know about ASDF2, the better it seems. 15:32:03 ustreamer-369 [~ustreamer@softbank221084032214.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:09 I recommend total ignorance. 15:32:18 that's why you need to purge clc, not just remove 15:32:22 *Xach* foolishly let that bliss escape 15:32:26 Only reason I had the clc config files on my system was because the upgrader tried to install clisp, and clisp couldn't do its memory-dump thing. 15:32:27 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:32:43 oh, I see: I've commented out the *central-registry* tweaks in my .sbcl in order to try quicklisp, so now asdf does its new-fangled thing :/ 15:33:24 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:34:27 can one sanely combine QL and own library repo using *central-registry*? 15:35:02 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:41 *cmm-* decides to fix the /etc file instead 15:35:58 cmm-: central registry takes precedence over ql. i think it can be sane if you keep that in mind. 15:36:19 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:36:31 Xach: thanks! 15:37:07 (I'll try to embrace the new way of doing things for now, I guess) 15:37:33 I, for one, welcome the new quicklisp overlord. 15:38:35 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:38:36 my *central-regisry* these days is #p"./" followed by various cvs and git directories 15:40:40 is there a reason why asdf:load-op doesn't work properly after a sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die call? 15:40:59 (i.e. in the resurrected image) 15:41:14 it may be already loaded in the image ? 15:41:27 did you look at the (list-all-packages) ? 15:41:28 nope. it was giving me a package not found condition 15:41:34 ah 15:41:56 then your image was garbled before the save 15:42:14 I've added the load-op to before the image is written and now it's just fine. 15:42:17 maybe something broke it before you saved 15:42:19 garbled meaning? 15:42:27 are you certain that you're running the saved core, and not an empty one? 15:42:28 the image is fine. 15:42:32 the reader was confused ? 15:42:34 yes, fairly certain. 15:42:43 the image is a long running webserver. 15:42:47 Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:47 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:52 by some package, tried to be pulled in, but was not successfull ant it left garbage ? 15:42:58 I Was just trying to load drakma onto it for a quick test, and it wouldn't. 15:43:17 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 15:43:18 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rread] 15:43:21 so what I'm hearing is that this isn't normal sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die behaviour? 15:43:51 no, normally it should load all the packages, which were saved too 15:43:51 Well, it possibly /is/ normal SLAD behavior. 15:44:01 but it may lack the environments 15:44:17 you maybe have to save it a little bit different 15:44:24 nyef: in what way? 15:44:40 hmm. maybe it is an environment issue. you are right. 15:44:56 Xach: I see that QL added itself to *central-registry*. does this mean I have to use *central-registry* for my own stuff too, or do I miss something here? 15:45:01 there's an option to save the env too 15:45:15 I See. that's most likely it then. 15:45:35 try it, and if you again get errors, it maybe an actual bug in some package or the lisp impl. itself.... 15:46:00 but make sure, you get no errors, when installing packages before you save the image 15:46:17 so load only packages which you know are safe to be put in there 15:47:38 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.29.201] has joined #lisp 15:48:16 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.251.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:48:30 or maybe do a (gc) before you save too 15:48:43 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:49:11 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:15 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-118.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:49:28 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-23-130.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:51:14 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b52-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 15:52:47 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0842.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:53:08 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53:50 additional gc before save-lisp-and-die is meaningless 15:54:07 Zephyrus [~emanuele@81.174.11.81] has joined #lisp 15:54:10 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@81.174.11.81] has quit [Changing host] 15:54:10 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 15:54:48 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:59 I see a key for save-list-and-die called environment-name. However, I'm not exactly clear on what it should be or how it interacts with anything 15:55:20 you can ignore it 15:55:22 try :earth 15:55:33 "I've added the load-op to before the image is written and now it's just fine" 15:55:51 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b52-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:56:13 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:33 what does this mean? i'm confused. obviously a system will not be in the saved core unless you load it before saving, so i'm guessing you mean something else here 15:56:59 but i can guarantee you that if a package exists before you save a core, it will also exist in the saved core when it is restarted 15:57:34 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:47 no magic required. please check sb-ext:*core-pathname* after starting the saved core to make sure you started the right core 15:58:40 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:00:25 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-120-194.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:00:32 nikodemus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115445 16:01:14 -!- prip [~foo@host247-125-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:01:15 that environment-name was just a test. it makes no difference whether it's there or not. 16:01:30 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 16:02:54 to answer you: core pathname goes from being sbcl.core (in sbcl lib dir) to the name of the core file I've created. 16:03:44 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:04:06 Debugging problems that happen on fasl load time is no fun. 16:04:48 Shaftoe: and what result do you get? 16:05:14 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:05:24 ... Wait, which package are you trying to load? 16:05:30 (unless *work-p* , I get a debugger invoked on a ASDF:MISSING-COMPONENT in thread # "initial thread" RUNNING 16:05:30 {AA32651}>: 16:05:30 component "local-time" not found 16:05:40 local-time. 16:05:46 it's the same behaviour for any package 16:06:00 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:06:03 it is clearly something about the load paths and/or environment. 16:06:37 Mmm. Which ASDF version? 16:06:57 *nyef* is liking ASDF less and less these days. 16:07:49 nyef: how do I tell? 16:07:53 I see a datestamp on my fasl 16:08:04 I have sbcl 1.0.35 16:08:10 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:08:42 maden [~maden@198.168.103.254] has joined #lisp 16:09:09 Modern ASDF has some sort of version thing in it. 16:09:24 Shaftoe: that should be asdf-1 16:09:46 Shaftoe: try (asdf:asdf-version), i don't know if that exists in asdf-1 16:09:53 I've always felt that the contents of the .asd file duplicates information I have in the defpackage. 16:10:16 how so? 16:10:22 andreas: So you only have one file per package? 16:10:32 [not everyone does] 16:10:59 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:11:07 beach: No. But I tend to state in my files which package they belong to. 16:11:33 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:11:36 beach: so there's duplicate information that needs to be kept in sync. 16:11:38 andreas: Of course, but there might still be an order to respect between files belonging to a package. 16:11:45 interesting. Any idea why POSIX-GETENV would raise an UNDEFINED-FUNCTION ? 16:11:57 (once again, this is after save-list-and-die) 16:12:06 (before, it is fine) 16:12:11 cmm-: you don't have to use the central registry 16:12:21 cmm-: you can also use the file-based ASDF2 configuration thing if you like 16:12:22 Shaftoe: because there's no such function? 16:12:26 cmm-: or the system search function stuff 16:12:41 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 16:12:55 Shaftoe: check that you use the correct package 16:12:56 andreas: i'm not sure i follow. i see the asdf system information as being largely orthogonal to any package considerations. 16:13:25 prip [~foo@host169-128-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:13:41 stassats: I was just looking at what the asdf:*central-registry* value held. 16:14:03 the SB-EXT:POSIX-GETENV is in there. I will double check 16:14:10 tokenrove: it's not just the information of which file belongs to which package that's duplicated. It's also the dependencies. 16:14:21 andreas: like, my system may have a couple of packages, and may depend on a few other systems, some of which contain packages which i happen to use in some of my packages. 16:14:30 I think I've found my culprit 16:14:47 and some symbols belong to multiple packages 16:14:54 andreas: how so? 16:15:36 or you specify stuff every dependency into :use? 16:15:39 Well, imagine a file starting with (in-package :my-package) (use-package :base-package) 16:15:44 not the wisest thing to do 16:16:18 I feels wrong to me to have to state the same information in the asd again. 16:17:23 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:17:24 Although it's easy to imagine a situation where finding that package dependency from the file isn't easy. 16:17:45 so you're saying that asdf should scrape files and try to figure out where :my-package and :base-package are defined? that seems nontrivial 16:17:54 most of the time i have only :cl in my package use lists 16:18:12 bam. problem solved 16:18:14 and further dependencies between files (except when :serial t) would also be pretty tricky to figure out 16:18:34 (SB-EXT:POSIX-GETENV "SBCL_HOME") was returning the directory the core was saved in. 16:18:40 which resulted in tears. 16:18:42 TEARS! 16:18:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:19:21 tokenrove: I know it's non-trivial. :) I still hate having to maintain dependency information manually. 16:19:45 Ok, got to leave. Later! 16:19:55 -!- andreas [~andreas@p4FF2A0AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:20:01 Shaftoe: does it get harcoded in there ? 16:20:04 but how ? 16:20:04 Xach: I was under the impression that a non-null *central-registry* trumps those? or is it "trumps" in the sense "is consulted first" and not "cancels"? 16:20:18 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:52 it's not hardcoded. the central registry has a call to the function. (just examine the central registry value) 16:21:08 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:21:11 when the image is launched without an export SBCL_HOME=blah; value, it just assumes the current di 16:21:12 dir 16:21:19 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:21:22 (I mean, I would just check instead of bothering people here with stupid questions, but who's to say that the behaviour I'll see is by design and not a "bug" that will be fixed in asdf 2.123?) 16:21:38 ah ok 16:21:57 so what's the fix for it then ? 16:22:12 load the core with SBCL_HOME environment variable properly set. 16:22:24 cmm-: you can change the order of the system search functions however you like. 16:22:27 (e.g. export SBCL_HOME=/usr/local/lib/sbcl ; sbcl --do magic) 16:22:32 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:22:41 Shaftoe: yes, but determined by the environment or can it be set from within the lisp image too ? 16:22:48 cmm-: the central registry has priority, not exclusivity 16:23:00 I think the answer to that question Xach just gave you 16:23:21 ok 16:24:05 Xach: thank you! 16:24:18 but you could deprioritize it 16:25:00 not sure I want to know that yet :) 16:26:42 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:28:47 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-127-140.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:31:23 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.173.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:31:58 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:21 Shaftoe: see the annotated paste 16:38:34 you weren't loading local-time before you saved the core, so naturally it wasn't there. SBCL_HOME is indeed defaulted from the location of the core unless it is explicitly set 16:40:24 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:40:53 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:57 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-127-140.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:30 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@178-25-57-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:42:33 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@178-25-57-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:43:42 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E2566E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:26 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 16:46:17 anyone here who attends nyclisp meetings? 16:46:23 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:46:35 yan_: hmm, i don't think there often is. 16:46:51 yan_: rahul used to, maybe he still does 16:47:20 Xach: do you know if they're informal meetups or do they usually feature presentations/and more structured? 16:48:06 yan_: Sorry, I don't know. The next one coming seems to be informal. 16:49:29 yeah, it's tonight, was just curious 16:50:43 yan are you thinking of going? 16:52:58 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.39.47] has joined #lisp 16:56:03 Dawgmatix_: i am.. just want to meet other lisp people.. i just started learning very recently, so i figure it'd be nice 16:56:32 yan_: I've always enjoyed meeting up with the Boston lisp nerds, even if the formal presentation part isn't something of strong interest to me 16:57:06 presentation ? 16:57:17 it's nice to talk to another nerd who doesn't start in with "Lisp, huh? I've been meaning to study that but I can't figure out closures or functional programming!" 16:57:21 wbooze: like in slime 16:57:38 i might show up too now that i know about it. ive always wanted to go 16:57:56 or in CLIM 16:58:15 who does held the presentations ? 16:58:19 the organizers ? 16:58:20 Xach: i've been into lisp concepts for years and went through most of SICP and appreciate functional programming, but have never actually tried to write anything.. now i have a project in mind that i think is a good fit, so i'm making an earnest attempt to move further this time 16:58:29 or are the guests thought of presenting them too ? 16:58:34 yan_: great to hear! 16:58:40 s/them/themselves/ 16:58:42 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:59 wbooze: at the boston lisp meeting, fare generally finds a speaker to give a long-form presentation and there are also a few short lightning-talk presentations. 16:59:08 wbooze: before and after, the nerds mingle 16:59:19 ah ok 16:59:35 eheh that must be funny 16:59:46 I went to a meeting a few months ago. Slava Pestov used my laptop! 17:00:24 you should have auctioned it on lambda the ultimate 17:01:53 Xach: and you don't reboot it anymore? 17:03:01 Xach: The Factor presentation? 17:03:28 yes 17:04:08 Mmm. I remember that. 17:04:43 you guys got to see the first quicklisp talk! 17:04:47 wvdschel [~wim@d51A4AD06.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:05:01 I also recall that the coolest part of that presentation was how well the environment worked. Like CLIM, only without the sucking. 17:05:07 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:54 bohanlon [~bohanlon@66.170.231.191] has joined #lisp 17:09:07 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13:28 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@189.66.39.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:13:28 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:14:54 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:16:15 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:17:18 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:17:40 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 17:23:14 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 17:23:14 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 17:23:14 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 17:25:14 I have this computer with 24 cpu cores... I wish the sbcl build was parallelizable. 17:25:50 Fade: xcvb was supposed to make that possible 17:26:01 Fade: build 24 sbcl instances at once instead! 17:26:16 dlowe: for building sbcl itself? 17:26:25 heh 17:26:31 Morning, folks. 17:26:34 stassats: just to enable sane parallel compilation of lisp projects 17:26:36 dlowe: yeah. i have big hope for xcvb 17:26:38 mornin, gigamonkey 17:26:52 what is xcvb ? 17:27:02 wbooze: experimental asdf replacement 17:27:05 minion: poiu 17:27:06 poiu: poiu is an asdf variant that compiles in parallel. http://www.cliki.net/poiu 17:27:11 ah 17:27:18 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:28:09 through parallization xcvb will be up to 8 times faster than asdf at finding the wrong libraries. 17:28:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@134.61.78.56] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:29:15 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007005.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 17:29:43 *Fade* chuckles 17:29:54 Why do you say so? 17:30:34 I mean, why the bad vibe about XCVB? 17:30:52 i think it's a vibe against ASDF 17:31:22 deepfire: I've been wrestling with ASDF2 lately and its shortcomings and bugs have been painful to me. 17:31:58 Xach, sure, but how XCVB enters the picture? 17:32:38 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-50.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:32:41 deepfire: Fare 17:32:47 Fare what? 17:32:57 deepfire: by the same author 17:33:03 Oh. 17:33:11 hah. emacs23 builds from sources on this machine in under 30 seconds. 17:33:16 -!- elopezc [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:33:26 Fade: Hello, new quicklisp buildbox! 17:33:26 the future is now. 17:33:30 Fade: and orders of magnitude more time on my ipad (: 17:33:33 Fade: you can build it each time before starting-up 17:33:47 Fade: does that include building all the elisp? 17:33:55 Xach: alas, it's a workstation for one of our mathemeticians. 17:33:57 well, you don't *need* to compile the elc 17:34:47 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:35:32 Xach, you know what, let's see when quicklisp sees the same wide use as ASDF2, and let's talk about its shortcomings and bugs then. 17:35:48 I have a six cpu alpha coming in the next week or two 17:36:04 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:36:05 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:36:08 if anybody is interested in using it for sbcl I can make it available. 17:36:20 it sure is funny to see a lisper poo-poo something on the basis of its limited popularity 17:36:37 Fade: why do you use an alpha workstation? 17:36:40 Fade: ... is it EV68or EV7? ^___^ 17:36:43 pkhuong: yeah, most of the build time is in elisp 17:36:44 deepfire: Quicklisp is an agent of ASDF2 popularity. 17:37:18 deepfire: It's because Quicklisp is using ASDF2 that many of these problems are becoming apparent. 17:37:19 How do i get SBCL to use UTF-8? 17:37:48 drdo: set the locale-related environment variables before starting SBCL 17:38:01 Xach: i did 17:38:07 drdo: on my system, that means e.g. "LANG=en_US.utf8". but that happens automatically. 17:38:14 Xach, ok. But do you think ASDF1 would be better than ASDF2 for Quicklisp? 17:38:14 Yes, i have exactly that 17:38:19 deepfire: Yes. 17:38:20 drdo: What is failing for you? 17:38:23 drdo: Ok, what suggests to you that SBCL isn't using UTF-8? 17:38:27 drdo: like example use case. 17:38:51 Xach: the errors i get when trying to load anything that isn't ASCII 17:39:07 Xach: and quicklisp is using ASDF2 just because many libraries are adopting it? 17:39:08 drdo: You mean with e.g. (load "eurolisp.lisp")? 17:39:12 yes 17:39:22 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755dea.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:47 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:39:47 drdo: and you're sure these non-ascii files are encoded in utf-8? What do file or iconv say? 17:39:52 gigamonkey: No, no libraries are adopting it. Many libraries had to be fixed because of backwards-incompatibility. 17:40:14 I guess because unloading ASDF is not an option, so dealing with whatever ASDF is present is more realistic.. 17:40:18 gigamonkey: I used it because it seemed like what would be the supported ASDF going forward, but now even that isn't the case. 17:40:30 Eh? 17:40:40 Xach: file reports UTF-8 17:40:56 drdo: you can also specify external format explicitly: (load "eurolisp.lisp" :external-format :utf-8) 17:41:28 drdo: what's sb-impl::*default-external-format*? 17:41:39 Xach, didn't Juanjo say that he'll pick up the ASDF flag? 17:42:04 elopezc [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:42:11 deepfire: We'll see. 17:42:16 gigamonkey: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/asdf-devel/2010-September/001604.html 17:42:35 "If this man should fall, who will lift the flag and carry on?" --Glory 17:42:42 Xach: :ANSI_X3.4-1968 17:42:57 well, that's not :utf-8 17:43:03 s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 17:43:41 Is that a secret synonym for ASCII? 17:43:45 nikodemus: i know, the question is, why isn't it? 17:43:48 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-148-28-145.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:43:55 drdo: for whatever reason nl_langinfo believes that is the right thing -- and sbcl does what nl_langinfo tells it... possibly you have an LC_ALL or LC_CTYPE in addition to LANG? 17:44:00 *attila_lendvai* just struggled due to missing this: sudo localedef -f UTF-8 -i en_US en_US.UTF-8 17:44:12 if your locales aren't working, try running "locale" 17:44:24 see what it says for LC_CTYPE, and see if it emits warnings about the locale not existing. 17:45:27 foom: i rest my case re. --external-format command-line argument. (though Windows is another thing to consider -- i have no idea how things are supposed to work there) 17:45:33 Ok, the problem is that the locale doesn't exist on that machine 17:45:47 yay for server admins 17:45:48 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:46:19 nikodemus: Not sure how that makes the case; sbcl could emit a warning like perl and locale do. 17:46:30 nikodemus: you don't need to add a separate command-line arg for that 17:46:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-231-231.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:47:14 drdo: in case you know a good way to make sure that the above localedef is not need, then do tell! due to updates or something else, i have to re-run it every year or so... 17:47:29 attila_lendvai: on what kind of system? 17:47:29 foom: i'm not sure i follow. you mean re-implement nl_langinfo and parse the environment ourselves? 17:47:33 i like sbcl --external-format utf-8 more than LANG=ru_RU.UTF-8 sbcl 17:47:36 foom: debian 17:47:55 attila_lendvai: dpkg-reconfigure locales, select the ones you want 17:48:15 nikodemus: no, the return value of setlocale 17:48:34 attila_lendvai: found another machine on the cluster that has the locale, gonna use that :D 17:48:40 why do we need setlocale? 17:48:55 because that's what sets the locale from the environment variables 17:49:08 foom: thanks a whole lot! you're my guest for a beer (or two :) on els2010... ;) 17:49:29 --external-format utf8 ??? 17:49:34 ah, we do have a setlocate call in the runtime. missed that 17:49:40 there is no command-line option like that here 17:49:47 wbooze: there isn't 17:50:00 we're talking about adding one 17:50:06 ah 17:50:14 and I'm talking about not adding one. :) 17:50:50 point in favor of --external-format: sbcl's utf-8 works fine without the locale -- and ditto for any external format 17:50:54 does SBCL use locale for anything else besides external format? 17:50:58 nope 17:51:17 there are times, the locale will be purged, albeit temporarily, from the system (upgrades, downgrades) 17:51:40 will that be of help or rather confusing then, when you started an app with that --external-format thing ? 17:51:53 oops. getting late -- need to head home 17:52:32 points in favor or against can be freely recorded at https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/659107 :) 17:55:00 They are out to get me :( 17:55:04 ist162447@sigma01:~$ sbcl 17:55:04 Floating point exception (core dumped) 17:55:11 On the only machine that has the locale installed 17:55:21 (that machine also has way older software) 17:55:42 foom, nikodemus: having had a --external-format would have spared me quite some time when i was setting up our rc.d scripts... the value of $LANG in rc.d scripts was not obvious to me, so SBCL failed to use utf-8, which made our code break in ways that were not obvious. it worked when run manually, but fail at reboot... which you don't do often on servers... 17:55:55 drdo: Can't you just use tha machine you were using and set external-format ? 17:55:56 drdo: like i said, you don't need the locale: (load "mylisp.lisp" :external-format :utf-8) 17:56:09 *attila_lendvai* records his experiences in lp 17:56:13 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:56:28 attila_lendvai: how is it easier to use --external-format than specifying LC_CTYPE? 17:56:47 drdo: or set the default one in your startup files. 17:57:17 Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-30.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:57:24 foom: e.g. LC_CTYPE doesn't work if one misses the localedef voodoo, which i wasn't aware of until your kind suggestion just recently 17:57:50 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:58:16 Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-148-28-145.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:59:02 attila_lendvai: yea, but then all your other software is also broken... 17:59:26 attila_lendvai: why should SBCL have a special switch to work around misconfigured systems? 17:59:35 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 18:00:04 foom: not really. i haven't noticed anything for example in the last two days while dwim.hu was unreachable due to this... 18:00:11 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:00:22 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 18:00:27 why was it unreachable? 18:00:45 sbcl works fine not in utf8 locale, just like the rest of your software.. 18:00:45 i have an explicit export LANG=en_US.UTF-8 in my rc.d script 18:01:07 http://dwim.hu a rather lame website for our lisp libs... 18:01:50 the problem is that we use non-ascii in places, like in .lisp files. 18:02:12 ah, yes. In other languages, the locale doesn't change the reading of source files. 18:02:49 also, i've added an assert to the startup procedure, so that it fails early. (not having a watchdog is another issue, but we don't have much time for that site) 18:03:17 e.g. python source files are ASCII, unless they have an encoding declaration on the first or second line 18:04:20 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:05:12 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:05:38 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.79.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:53 xinming [~hyy@122.238.79.216] has joined #lisp 18:09:48 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:42 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.47.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:11:07 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:12:12 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:12:38 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.183.37] has joined #lisp 18:12:52 dborba [~dborba@74.105.202.55] has joined #lisp 18:14:05 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:14:49 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d51A4AD06.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:15:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007005.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:16:32 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 18:18:12 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-251-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:18:16 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-251-24.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:20:33 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:22:11 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:23:22 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:24:55 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:58 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007037.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 18:29:16 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724574.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 18:29:19 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:31:59 -!- s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:34:04 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212-200-193-125.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:35:51 -!- sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:35:52 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:40:46 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: afk] 18:46:05 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:49:33 gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 18:49:36 -!- gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:32 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:52:54 Soulman [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007037.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:28 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:55:50 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-118-21.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:59:00 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.51.136] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:52 hun [~hun@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:54 weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:10 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:02:28 gonzojive [~red@171.66.83.205] has joined #lisp 19:02:32 Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:32 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:02:32 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:03:07 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 19:03:17 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:04:31 -!- Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-30.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 19:05:40 Bronsa [~bronsa@host105-180-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:09:14 Xach: thanks for quicklisp and vecto :) 19:09:47 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@nat/mozilla/x-hlsnbcpvsbmwbxxp] has joined #lisp 19:09:47 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@nat/mozilla/x-hlsnbcpvsbmwbxxp] has quit [Changing host] 19:09:47 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 19:09:49 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:11:04 hun: you're welcome! 19:11:38 Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:38 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:11:38 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:12:34 Xach: i used pango-view to render ttf to png for a embedded product. they changed their hinting, and i could hack together a replacement in 2h. was very nice (though it would be really cool if string-bounding-box didn't need a canvas. but that doesn't really matter :) 19:13:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:13:36 hun: it doesn't! 19:13:58 hun: zpb-ttf has its own string-bounding-box, but it is unscaled (i.e. at the font's glyph space sizes) 19:14:01 tayloj [~tayloj@human77.hss-win.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 19:15:00 oh, ok :) i'll look at that tomorrow 19:15:16 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.241.159.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:38 usually you can scale by zpb-ttf:units/em 19:17:28 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:17:55 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@human77.hss-win.rpi.edu] has left #lisp 19:18:51 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 19:20:07 TomJ [~tomj@89.241.159.104] has joined #lisp 19:21:55 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:23:02 Heh. Lisp and Fortran may be of similar age, but Fortran seems to be the only language with a continuous lineage that has survived multiple official revisions. 19:23:24 Hraban [~user@78-22-147-148.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:23:39 C? 19:25:40 Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-50-68.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:28:20 Krystof: I'd argue C didn't really survive C89 -> C99 since Microsoft never supported C99 19:28:30 "survived" is obviously being used in an odd way here. 19:29:25 ok then, how about Ada 19:29:36 maybe it never lived since Microsoft never shipped an Ada compiler :-) 19:29:44 Krystof: not as old ;) 19:30:32 well, neither is C 19:30:36 C survived via C++ 19:30:42 ECMAscript has had multiple revisions 19:31:50 Krystof: the latest attempt at revision of ECMAscript was a major train wreck 19:32:28 So Ada had two official standards, 1983 and 1995. So I'd say that's one revision, not multiple. 19:32:30 gigamonkey: was? 19:32:44 pkhuong: yeah, was, is, will be forevermore. 19:32:53 pkhuong: the browsers weren't on board, so it died a fairly quiet death 19:33:03 gigamonkey: (I bet you're regretting this now) What way are you using 'survived' - that the major implementations have followed the standards up to and including the latest? 19:33:07 ah, nice one. 19:33:38 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:48 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:34:00 luckily it was abandoned before it actually became a standard. 19:34:01 splittist: my meaning is pretty vague. But basically that at each revision most implementors and users moved on to the new revision. 19:34:15 I don't think most Fortran users have moved on to the new revision 19:34:30 Krystof: well, that's a good point. 19:34:34 I think the most widely used Fortran codes are still F66 19:34:40 (rules out scheme...) 19:34:56 It certainly seems like Fortran worked pretty hard on backwards compatibility. 19:35:01 HPF, F2000 or F90? 19:35:31 Krystof: do you think most shops that use Fortran and write new code use a F66 or F90 compiler? 19:35:32 I think that's pretty much true of ECMAScript, if you leave out the 4th revision which was abandoned. 19:35:48 splittist: yeah, scheme was going pretty well until R6RS 19:36:01 gigamonkey: I like the way you say "shops" :-) 19:36:11 I don't actually know, to be honest. 19:36:24 and actually I think I might mean f77; 19:36:56 Krystof: I don't either. But looking at how the language evolved (based on Wikepedia's history), it seems likely that folks could be using a modern compiler even if they use libraries written in the 60s and may even write most of their own code in an older style. 19:37:06 COBOL thru '85? 19:37:08 but I would imagine most new Fortran code is in modernish Fortran and most widely used code is WRITTEN LIKE ITHIS 19:38:03 Krystof: re, "shops", is that an Americanism? 19:38:39 well, I would guess that most Fortran programmers do not think of themselves as programmers 19:38:56 for me a Fortran "shop" would involve people whose job it was to write Fortran 19:39:22 whereas I suspect most people who write Fortran are researchers 19:39:36 but actually I am extrapolating based on very few data points now 19:39:38 Krystof: I suspect the non-programmer nature of Fortran users is part of what allows its stability as a language. 19:40:01 They don't really care about language wars: they're actually trying to get their work done. 19:40:34 what obstacles in the way of progress! 19:41:06 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #lisp 19:41:19 I found it amusing when I interviewed Fran Allen that her first job at IBM was to teach the IBM scientists this new fangled language, Fortran. 19:41:24 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:41:27 Which they hated and didn't want to use. 19:41:52 Guess one change was enough for them. 19:42:46 splittist: yeah, COBOL is another interesting case. 19:43:54 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:43:58 Krystof: I have the same picture as you. To me the "Fortran shops" are most likely really "physics shops" where they happen to use Fortran. 19:44:21 and here I thought real world shops only used libraries. 19:45:04 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Upgradin'] 19:46:39 can anyone recommend a resource on deftype and how to use/extend the type system in CL, the standard is a little dense (so am I) ? 19:47:57 gigamonkey: there are definitely still fortran users in industry. i know at least one case in the domain of nuclear power. 19:48:01 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-77-169.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:48:05 johanbev: did you have a particular goal in mind? 19:48:10 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:48:14 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-118.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:48:33 just poking around really 19:48:39 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:48:40 johanbev: I ask because I think you can get a lot done without ever learning too much about the type system, but there are situations where it helps. Wondering if you're in one of those situations. 19:48:59 deftype is really primitive 19:49:10 but im just about to launch ACL on some really huge datasets 19:49:20 and any performance i can get will help 19:49:24 deftype are macros for types. 19:49:55 Not much ACL tuning expertise around here; you might want to ask franz directly when you have a working prototype. 19:50:22 johanbev: deftype can make your code tidier, but not faster 19:50:47 ok, good to know 19:51:11 this is really a tangent, im procrastinating, but i got to do something while the model converges I guess 19:52:20 and if there are gains to be had, then why not (even though if it's just my understanding on how CL works) 19:52:28 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:53:00 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:56:16 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:56:45 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:56:48 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:57:39 There's no way to do a "splicing-read", right?... Something like (defpackage #:mylibrary (:export #:safe-symbol #-mylibrary-noconflict,@'(#:collecting #:collect #:with-collectors #:compose))). My first idea is to put those symbols in a separate :export declaration and prefix it with #-mylibrary-noconflict, but I'm slightly annoyed how it means my symbols won't be in "file order" anymore. I'm also wondering if it would be technica 19:58:34 yes there is 19:59:14 sure you can. 19:59:14 (foo . #+sbcl (1 2 3) #-sbcl ()) 19:59:18 read OOP in CL by Keene 19:59:25 ^, right 20:00:03 pkhuong: Ok, but I have many symbols after my #-mylibrary-noconflict. 20:00:18 Hexstream: so does stassats's example. 20:00:40 Oops, yeah, that was stassats' example I was talking about.. 20:00:45 -!- maden [~maden@198.168.103.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:55 you mean you want to splice in the middle? 20:00:59 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:01:03 Yeah. 20:01:10 you can conditionalize each symbol 20:01:25 drdo` [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:02:13 (foo . #.`(1 #+sbcl ,2 #-sbcl 3 4)) 20:02:17 I thought of that. A bit verbose for my taste. I guess the different :export strategy is not all that bad ;P Now, do you see any technical limitations that would prevent one from writing a splicing-read reader macro? 20:02:20 ugly as hell 20:02:23 i asked earlier today, but figure i can ask again: anyone going to nyclisp tonight? 20:02:23 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@ip98-177-157-69.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:39 Hexstream: I've become a fan of #.`... instead of complex reader conditionals. 20:02:41 stassats: Agreed. 20:03:23 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:04:04 and they say lisp has no syntax! 20:04:28 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:06:00 stassats: Relative to other languages like Java or Perl or... well, almost every other language in existence: there is some truth to it. 20:06:05 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 20:08:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-231-231.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:53 How would you call libraries such as cl-utilities that provide very generic utilities that are potentially useful in most projects? "base utilities"?... 20:09:15 CL 20:09:48 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 20:10:09 stassats: ?... I believe you misunderstood the question. Or am I getting lost in your sea of snark again? ;P 20:10:14 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:10:37 Hexstream: the CL package fits your description 20:11:02 I'm talking about libraries that provide utilities that CL doesn't already provide... 20:11:42 i don't use utility libraries "in most projects", so i don't know 20:11:47 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-251-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:51 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-251-24.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:16 Hexstream: I don't think there's a specific name for libraries of that sort 20:12:28 drdo: Not yet! 20:12:38 like glib and boost 20:12:58 i've never seen any name to describe that sort of general purpose library 20:13:02 how about hexstream-lib? 20:13:19 stassats: you're missing the point 20:14:43 but nobody else would think to name a library "hexstream-lib", so you won't get collisions 20:14:52 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host105-180-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:15:06 i disagree 20:15:31 are you planning to use that name too? 20:15:36 hex stream sounds like something someone could implement 20:15:42 DeadPanda [~Brett@host81-153-209-250.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:46 -!- DeadPanda [~Brett@host81-153-209-250.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:16:08 stassats: It's not to name my own such library. I already use com.hexstreamsoft.lib as a name for that. I'm referencing the type of "class" which cl-utilities "belongs" to in documentation for another one of my libraries. 20:16:29 what's wrong with just "utilities"? 20:17:06 alexandria is also advertised as a collection of utilities 20:17:27 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 20:17:40 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:18:20 *austinh* votes for "utilities library" 20:19:22 I hope quicklisp leads to a consolidation of utility libraries. There are at least a half-dozen personal collections in there. 20:19:25 if you're trying to sell them, you can use "utilities for everyday", "general purpose utilities", or "practical utilities" 20:19:37 "standard utilities" 20:19:50 cleansing stuff 20:20:03 for closette ? 20:20:04 lol 20:20:46 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:21:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:23:54 francogrex [~user@109.130.107.122] has joined #lisp 20:24:52 Context of why I was asking these questions: http://github.com/Hexstream/loopless/blob/master/loopless.lisp 20:26:04 Xach: Nice suggestion! I should have read that before committing and uploading o_o 20:26:19 fe[nl]ix: You mentioned yesterday about updating cffi to create libraries. Was that right? 20:26:28 "basic utilities"? 20:26:29 yes 20:27:29 fe[nl]ix: Why does cffi need the ability to create libraries? Granted, that would be nice for me, but still.... 20:27:51 Hexstream: your mapvcon does some unnecessary consing (apply #'max (mapcar #'length vectors)) => (reduce #'max vectors :key #'length) 20:28:00 stassats: Yes, that's another possibility I considered. In the end, I guess "base utilities", "basic utilities" and "standard utilities" would be viable alternative spellings. 20:28:26 rtoym: in order to wrap C macros, which obviously do not have ELF entries and cannot be called through the FFI 20:29:04 roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 20:29:18 stassats: Whoa. Let me digest that because it's not immediately apparent how this works, but I'm sure you're right ;) 20:30:01 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:01 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:08 Hexstream: and your mapv doesn't look analogues to mapl 20:31:30 it looks exactly just like MAP 20:32:14 though i don't think that mapl for vectors would be useful anyway 20:33:07 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 20:33:38 and your loopless contains to much LOOP 20:33:51 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E2566E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:55 stassats: Have you not read the comment about this "irony"? ;P 20:34:46 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:09 I must be lazy because I just tend to use loop 20:35:32 though I do try use mapping when possible 20:35:43 About MAPV not being very useful, maybe not, but MAPVECTOR and MAPVCON might be just a bit more so, and also I figured adding these just wasn't costly in terms of effort and conceptual complexity because it's so in line with other similar functions offered by the library. 20:36:30 Hexstream: the usual trick to getting people to use one-off vanity utility libraries is to write a super-awesome non-vanity non-utility library that depends on it. Did you write one of those yet? 20:36:45 It's a bit how like I added DOVECTOR, which doesn't seem like such an incredible addition, on the principle that there's no reason iterating over a vector should be different than iterating over a list... 20:37:03 Hexstream: well, the definition of MAPV can be just: (apply #'map 'vector function first-vector rest-vectors) 20:37:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:38:55 -!- bohanlon [~bohanlon@66.170.231.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:08 and you could declare &rest parameters as dynamic-extent where it makes sense 20:39:36 Xach: I believe I wrote a few of those. However, none of them is yet in an actually usable state because they're completely undocumented and not unit-tested and most of them have issues such as weird module boundaries because of the very recent open-sourcing. I will work on these issues for the next year. LOOPless is the first library I "completed". I'm sorry that it looks worthless to you. 20:40:13 -!- elopezc is now known as ikki 20:40:26 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 stassats: d-x &rest arguments don't mean what you think. 20:41:31 Unless you expect dxness to also propagate to the arguments themselves. 20:41:35 It might be of some help to newbies. LOOP is a bit of a behemoth to learn, IMHO, when combined with all the other "unconventional" stuff newbies have to get acquainted with. 20:41:47 pkhuong: that's so broken. :( 20:42:14 Hexstream: I think newcomers will be better-served by learning the language that everyone uses first. 20:42:17 Hexstream: It doesn't look worthless to me. It looks like a one-off vanity utility library. 20:42:49 foom: &rest list being list is what's broken ;) 20:42:58 Xach: I don't know what you mean by "one-off vanity utility library". Especially the "one-off" part. 20:43:06 pkhuong: i expect (foo (list 1 2 3 4)) to avoid consing that list 20:43:26 -!- Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-50-68.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:43:28 pkhuong: fine, but I also consider it a broken interpretation of the standard to propagate the dxness to the arguments of a function call. 20:43:30 Hexstream: I mean that nobody is going to install the library just for the sake of installing it - it's a step to some other goal. 20:43:30 stassats: there's no rest list there. 20:43:57 foom: DX is clearly specified in terms of dynamic reachability, not static visibility. 20:44:01 Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-24.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:44:08 Xach: well, cl-utilities is the same in that respect... 20:44:15 Hexstream: exactly right. 20:44:32 pkhuong: what is there? 20:44:50 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 20:44:58 (foo (list 1 2 3 4)) 20:45:30 and that list need to be allocated on the heap before passing it to foo? 20:46:11 Xach: I don't really expect any already existing project to convert to what I'll call "LOOPless-style" (call that super extra vanity if you like), but it might be fun to try for new libraries. Not for you, perhaps, but someone else who wouldn't throw up or burst out laughing when first encountering my library ;P 20:46:16 pkhuong: that may be, but it breaks everyone's assumptions about what it should do 20:46:25 pkhuong: and I don't see how it's actually a useful thing for the compiler to do 20:46:52 foom: I think it was specified to allow smrter runtime optimisations... 20:47:09 foom: i'm mostly with pkhuong, but i have been thinking that inlined &rest should be special cased 20:47:41 Yes, even if it's technically allowed, it's not what the user wanted. 20:47:45 pkhuong: It's true that eventual mastery of LOOP is a requirement but I think a newbie could get started for a while without learning all the intricacies of LOOP and using it to its full extent right when beginning to learn CL. 20:47:48 but then again doing that makes it a special case -- which doesn't really make learning easier 20:48:20 foom: without being as agressive about it as sbcl is, dx structures would not have a prayer 20:48:42 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:45 mmm. 20:48:52 pkhuong: and i meant (apply #'foo (list 1 2 3 4)) 20:48:54 (though special casing &rest might not hurt too bad) 20:49:06 as pkhuong said, the real problem is that &rest is a list in the first place 20:49:42 if it was specified to be a vector on the stack always, or something, then this wouldn't be a problem. 20:50:31 stassats: sure, if you're one of the few people who expect (flet ((g (&rest x) (declare (d-x x)) [store (car x) somewhere])) (g (list 1 2 3))) to be unsafe. 20:50:55 stassats: ah, there we go. Then the issue isn't with the list that's passed to apply, but to that list's elements. 20:51:09 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:25 in (apply #'foo (list (make-array ...))), the result of make-array could also be assumed DX. 20:51:34 oh, i see 20:51:49 i wouldn't expect that indeed 20:51:59 if sbcl autodetected dxness when it could, this might be less of an issue too 20:52:07 foom: generational gc etc etc ;) 20:52:09 since people wouldn't have to insert explicit declarations and get it wrong. 20:52:34 sure, and if sbcl had a working efficient generational gc, you wouldn't care about stack allocation either. :) 20:53:05 I think PCL has a very good introduction to loop 20:53:24 I think I learnt most of what I know of it from there 20:53:45 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:53:58 I do feel it happens to be the worst part of the CLHS though 20:54:28 i mastered LOOP through reading CLHS 20:54:34 Hexstream: I don't think that's a very good idea, LOOP isn't really required and someone who just started learning won't be looking to install libraries and might actually be better served by implementing those utilities themselves :) 20:54:50 part of the problem is that (imo) the sane way to implement dx as optimization would be to have (declare (ftype (function ((dx string)) ...) foo)) which would tell FOO's callers that the string can be stack-allocated, in which case the compiler could at least attempt to verify that FOO is implemented correctly 20:54:52 foom: alternatively, late-bound higher order functions are the problem ;) 20:55:48 actually, while stack-allocation is good for short-lived data, sometimes it is _excellent_ for long-lived data too 20:55:51 stassats, I thought you were the CLHS 20:55:57 hehe 20:56:21 Guthur: sheesh, it's not even a palindrome! 20:56:26 Jabberwock [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:47 drdo: I think a newbie would rather install a library (especially given Quicklisp) to help live without LOOP that provides utilities quite similar to and composable with the rest of the language than write their own library of utilities... 20:57:32 Hexstream: depends on what kind of utilities 20:57:42 loop is loop. there is also iterate. and then there's do. each of them already does it in some uniform-ish way 20:57:53 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 20:57:54 i remember when DO seemed to me complex 20:58:01 it is complex 20:58:08 stassats, I was kind of referring to your ability to replace specbot 20:58:09 guaqua: But they're monolithic. 20:58:25 How is DO complex? 20:58:45 for some reason DO has always seemed to generic to me. never got a hang of it 20:58:46 Jabber_ [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:57 i rather use LOOP 20:59:00 drdo: easy for you to say, Dr. Do 20:59:01 i have to look at the clhs every time i use it because i forget if the break condition is negated or net 20:59:14 most people will be familiar with DO from the for construct of a lot of languages 20:59:21 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:21 i heart loop so much 20:59:27 gigamonkey: haha, good one :) 20:59:27 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:59:27 or mapcar 20:59:50 loopless looks great... but i see that lisp has many many years over my own life. i trust its traditions =) 21:00:00 drdo: interesting. never thought of it like that 21:00:08 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:00:25 DO has quite annoying quirks... One thing that irritates me about it, and is a bit subtle at first, is that the end condition is tested AFTER updating all the variables, which can produce "off-by-one" errors where you're computing some variables that you don't need the values of anyway because the looping is over. 21:01:07 humasect: LOOPless tries to make the most of those traditions. 21:01:17 -!- Jabberwock [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:01:46 ahh =) i like its power and flexibility so personally i would highly likely be using it. 21:02:53 Hexstream: and you don't need a progn after DO in LOOP 21:02:54 Hexstream: I actually love that "quirk" 21:02:55 seeing those examples i don't think i have a choice, which is related to the reasons to choose LISP, so it seems is related to those traditions 21:03:16 By the way, is there a way to extende LOOP? 21:03:24 *extend 21:03:30 stassats: I kinda suspected that... 21:03:36 Yay! ps-print-buffer actually Just Worked 21:03:49 drdo: Portably, no, but most implementations are derived from MIT LOOP, and that has some sort of extension mechanism. 21:04:00 drdo: It's possible to extend iterate, which is a bit like LOOP but arguably marginally better. 21:04:00 -!- hun [~hun@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:18 Er, except for failing to print certain non-ascii characters. 21:04:19 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.83.205] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 21:04:45 Hexstream: though, maybe while expanding a macro it's useful to guard against hijaking loop 21:04:53 -!- Jabber_ [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:13 gigamonkey: is that related to parenscript? 21:05:19 Jabber_ [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:54 stassats: Well, that's what I thought, too o_o I didn't remember thinking it, though. 21:06:01 though you can hijack loop with (loop-finish) inside progn too 21:06:40 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:05 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:07:05 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Changing host] 21:07:05 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 21:07:16 drdo: no. Postscrip.t 21:07:33 and you need to advertise that it establishes a block named nil, although it's a common thing to do for DOx macros 21:07:44 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:07:46 and there is another argument against using LOOP for macros, but i forgot it 21:08:58 stassats: Using LOOP was for expediency, mostly. I'd like to eventually use something else for the implementations. 21:09:14 TAGBODY? 21:09:50 I don't know yet. My mind has kinda been warped by years of using LOOP, so I didn't explore alternatives such as TAGBODY a lot. 21:09:58 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:10:17 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Client Quit] 21:11:42 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 21:12:13 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-118-21.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:12:17 stassats: loop-finish, for instance. 21:12:29 Another warping I have is that my brain has been drugged with "GOTO considered harmful" for so many years. I first heard of the concept of GOTO not necessarily being bad in all circumstances just a few years ago, max. (yes, I did know that hardware and low-level stuff craves GOTO). 21:12:53 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-181-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:12:54 *drewc* doesn't let trivial general mapping constructs past code review, fwiw 21:12:58 pkhuong: yeah, but i said that 21:13:56 someone should write "tail recursion considered harmful" 21:14:33 Is it?... Are you referring to Python's creator's dislike for it? 21:14:51 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.183.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:15:04 drewc: What do you mean? 21:15:10 Hexstream: no, i'm referring to its similarity to goto 21:16:37 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.66.148] has joined #lisp 21:16:49 Hexstream: i mean when one of my team members commits code that includes a trivial iteration utility function, it's immediately ripped out and relaced with something more reasonable before hitting the release branch. 21:17:07 stassats: Oh. I have not completely wrapped my head around that concept yet, tail-recursion itself and then its similarity to GOTO. I understand how to make functions "self-tail-recursive", but I don't really understand the exact implementation of tail-recursion in the general case. 21:17:36 DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:50 drewc: Yes, that is perfectly reasonable policy. 21:18:07 dore [~dore@athedsl-203622.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:18:21 Jabberwock [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:18:23 stassats: it's goto, but slightly clearer (the rebinding is more explicit than assignment) 21:18:31 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:43 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:20:08 Ehh, i love using tail recursion to iterate 21:20:19 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:20:19 But i usually don't do it in CL 21:20:56 *drewc* is a big fan of trampolines ... mmm bouncy 21:21:06 -!- Jabber_ [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:22:37 -!- Jabberwock [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:23:06 -!- dore [~dore@athedsl-203622.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:25:02 foom: now i remember why special-casing &rest was tricky 21:26:45 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:26:45 drdo` [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:27:05 local call conversion (as eg. in the FLET STORE example earlier) gets rid of %listify-rest-args, which leaves the compiler with things a just a few calls to cons 21:27:29 i forgot again, what &more is doing in sbcl? 21:27:43 -!- DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:27:50 it's like &rest, but harder to use 21:27:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:27:57 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:28:54 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 21:28:56 look at profile-encapsulation-lambdas for usage 21:29:13 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.107.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:16 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:29:27 you can pass &more args to your callees without consing using multiple-value-call and %more-arg-values, etc 21:29:57 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06d231.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 21:30:19 it's basically low-level abstraction over register/stack allocated varargs 21:30:28 nowl [~nowl@c-66-30-78-234.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:51 oh 21:30:53 oooh 21:30:54 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:08 i think i have an idea 21:31:20 i'll write it down and see if it looks good tomorrow :) 21:33:51 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo_] 21:33:53 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:40:13 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:47 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:41:27 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:41:48 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:42:06 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:25 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:45:31 antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-120-196.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:58 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 21:48:37 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 21:52:14 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:34 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:53:31 Was anyone here using Lisp between 1994 and 2000? 21:54:59 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-1-3.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:55:37 There's a very slight possibility that I may have tried to use CMUCL for something over that time period, but not for very long before I gave it up as a bad job and went back to C. 21:55:46 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:47 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:55:56 gonzojive [~red@171.66.77.197] has joined #lisp 21:56:06 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:07 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:56:08 It seems that there was a resurgence in interest in Lisp around the turn of the century. 21:56:20 I'm trying to figure out if a) that's true and b) what caused it. 21:56:26 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:27 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:56:29 Paul Graham's essay in 2001 was one big thing. 21:56:37 SBCL was new in 1999 may be another. 21:56:43 gigamonkey: internet? 21:56:46 Millennial fever? 21:56:46 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:47 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:57:06 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:07 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:57:10 danb's araneida and asdf were instrumental, too 21:57:13 christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:14 xristos [~x@c-174-61-40-23.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:15 with the advent of internet it became more easy to obtain information about lisp 21:57:18 -!- FareWell is now known as Fare 21:57:26 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:27 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:57:33 stassats: yeah, though the internet was around well before 2000. 21:57:37 and not only through some academic circles 21:57:37 araneida pretty much got me started writing web apps in Lisp 21:57:39 Well, ITA started in 97 or so, using Lispworks. So, don't count any of us ITAers if you're counting. :) 21:57:46 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:47 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:57:59 When did araneida and ASDF come out? 21:58:06 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:07 Presumably after SBCL was started. 21:58:07 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:58:13 asdf is 2001 21:58:15 gigamonkey: but it wasn't as widely available 21:58:24 -!- roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 21:58:26 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:27 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:58:38 *gigamonkey* is feeling old thanks to stassats 21:58:46 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:47 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:59:00 foom: were you there at the beginning of ITA? 21:59:06 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:10 going to dig into my disk, see if I can find out when the first Araneida commit was 21:59:17 gigamonkey: or you just live in a big city of an economically developed country 21:59:25 rich_holygoat: Commit? Not likely! 21:59:34 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:59:39 in darcs! old school 21:59:46 Even less likely! 21:59:56 darcs pre-2000 ? :) 22:00:18 gigamonkey: no 22:00:27 I mean, Araneida goes back to the days of Free The X3J13, surely? 22:00:30 schmrkc: darc ages? 22:00:37 stassats: ouch 22:00:50 gigamonkey: but I'm using lisp because ITA's product is written in it, not because of a resurgence in interest. 22:01:10 gigamonkey: the history of modern lisp? :) 22:01:16 I'm certainly happy that there is interest in it, but that's not why I started using it. 22:01:21 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:25 foom: right. But there's the fact that ITA started and decided to use Lisp. 22:01:36 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 22:01:40 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:43 gigamonkey: right. but before 2000. :) 22:01:45 was it started by old-timers? 22:01:48 Was Dan Weinreb one of the founders? 22:01:51 no 22:01:53 and no 22:01:59 gigamonkey: I was using Lisp in that time frame. 22:02:24 foom: Do you know why they choose Lisp? (Wasn't there a write up about that somewhere?) 22:02:25 my boss's brother works there 22:02:48 As I hear the story (remembering that I wasn't around then) lisp was used because some guy they hired from the AI Lab to write the first prototype used lisp, because he liked it. 22:02:49 (odd coincidence) 22:02:58 http://www.paulgraham.com/carl.html I think was what I was thinking of. 22:03:17 lisp virus? 22:03:32 gigamonkey: I actually got a book on lisp from the library back in the 90s sometime.. 94 or some such. to go with clisp on my fancy amiga 500. I abandoned it kinda quick though :( can't provide any interesting historical information at all 22:03:50 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:03:55 earliest mention I see of Araneida was 2000-02-18: http://web.archive.org/web/20000902103848/araneida.telent.net/doc/index.html 22:04:16 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:04:33 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.29.201] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:38 Ah, so it originally was written for CMUCL. 22:04:52 gigamonkey: I wish you had published your book a *couple* of years earlier. 22:05:05 Was danb later an SBCL developer? Or just part of the SBCL gang? 22:05:59 schmrkc: nah, otherwise i wouldn't have read it when it was still fresh 22:06:03 http://www.cliki.net/Daniel Barlow 22:06:16 looks like he did the threading and AMD64 ports 22:06:30 gigamonkey: http://xach.com/charts/cmucl-and-sbcl.html 22:08:02 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:21 stassats: "this book seems ok. but it is 10 years old. bleeeh" 22:08:22 what was that large spike in activity of wnewman around 2005q3? 22:08:22 Xach: you should probably add a label to each curve when it pops to the top. 22:08:40 Yeah, danb did some amazing work on SBCL... And put out some amazing crap in Araneida, Cliki, and ASDF. 22:08:47 stassats: detabification 22:09:09 Xach: Are the CMUCL and SBCL vertical axes the same scale? 22:09:40 gigamonkey: yes 22:09:48 lat_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:10:07 gigamonkey: mouseover helps a little too 22:10:15 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:16 Ah, missed the mouseover. 22:10:20 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2D8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:27 Xach: what are the units? 22:10:38 stassats: "commits" 22:10:45 stassats: i don't remember exactly, sorry 22:11:07 Cliki was around the same time, circa 2000-2001? 22:11:21 -!- lat_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Client Quit] 22:12:21 danb wrote a lot of code, with a "release early" strategy that led to an initial infinite increase in quality followed by a long stagnation. 22:12:34 "Couple of evenings in May 2000" based on danb's slides from ILC 2002 22:13:31 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:13:50 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-120-196.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:14:11 -!- splittist [~John@125-164.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: It's after midnight and I'm still at work ENOLIFE] 22:15:01 Xach: if you ever felt inclined to make a "box-office" graph of number of posts to c.l.l by poster, I'd love to see it. 22:15:51 Where is danb these days? 22:15:53 gigamonkey oooh 22:16:08 gigamonkey: right after my qr code generator! 22:16:16 qr? 22:16:19 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:29 (qr code) (generator) 22:16:45 qr is still unbound for me 22:16:58 Xach: looks more like the number of files changed 22:17:05 Ah, those barcode things. 22:17:10 Xach: heh, I'm sitting at my Mozilla desk right now looking into using QR codes 22:17:32 rich_holygoat: ah, even better. please write me a library and i can skip to the cll boxoffice chart. 22:17:43 heh, it might be in Javascript :D 22:17:52 the hardest part about QR is understanding how to use Reed-Solomon error correction codes 22:18:40 well, for me 22:21:21 Uh, google "objects" and look at the weird image results 22:21:45 *rtoym* wrote a RS encoder and decoder many years ago. 22:21:55 rtoym: ping 22:22:13 Herep. But will be leaving momentarily. 22:23:03 could you try executing autoconfig's config.guess on a few Solaris boxes and report the output ? 22:23:17 *autoconf 22:24:15 sparc-sun-solaris2.10. 22:24:31 Gotta go.... 22:24:36 thanks 22:29:18 symbole [~user@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 22:32:45 lat_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:34:33 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-66-30-78-234.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:35:32 -!- lat_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:32 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:37:08 bohanlon [~bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:28 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:32 Jabberwock [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:46 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:39:47 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:43:45 -!- Jabberwock [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:44:11 Jabberwock [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:28 hm...I just realized that local-time's day-of function sometimes gives the same day even though it outputs different dates when printing...guess I'll have to read the docs more carefully 22:45:28 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:50 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:46:37 cYmen: don't use day-of - that's the internal representation, which is always in UTC 22:46:37 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B248.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:47:34 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 22:47:38 *dlowe* should really give local-time a poke. 22:48:24 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:48:25 ah 22:48:40 I'm just trying to find the easiest way to write a is-today? function 22:49:34 -!- Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-24.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 22:49:57 cYmen: todayp you mean? 22:50:13 (defun is-today (date) nil) is only wrong for 1/365 22:50:23 1/365.25 22:50:57 1/365.2564 22:51:33 mh...sure :) 22:51:59 I suppose I got a naming convention wrong? 22:52:05 I'm not sure what you're talking about.... 22:52:24 cYmen: we're just playing around 22:52:35 use unix timestamp and mod 86400? 22:52:43 cYmen: but yes todayp would be more coherent with CL style 22:52:58 Hraban: I'm going to do the equivalent (or try) and use the offset command. 22:53:13 eh, adjust-timestamp 22:53:46 today is not friday 22:54:04 -!- Soulman [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:54:22 fridayp :( 22:54:29 maybe lisp should return :( instead of nil 22:56:18 heh 22:56:21 [1]> :( 22:56:21 :|| 22:56:43 it appears to be unenthousiastic :P or something 22:57:18 it's a suitcase 22:57:51 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:26 Jabber_ [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:01:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:03:00 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu205.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:04:05 -!- Jabberwock [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:04:47 stassats: Who shall I reference you as in commit logs? "stassats"? 23:05:04 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:05:26 you can look in my /whois 23:06:28 *stassats* typed /whoami to refresh memory 23:07:07 Ok. Is it always safe to assume that the real name is what should go in the commit if it's available in /whois? 23:07:29 i can't speak for anyone else 23:07:50 -!- Jabber_ [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:07:55 Then I guess I'll ask for each new contributor. 23:09:35 *stassats* goes back to understanding Galois fields, oh dear, programming is hard 23:12:05 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 23:12:10 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:12:39 hm...setting the seconds apparently also uses the internal representation and sets the date back to yesterday 23:13:06 decto [~decto@pdpc/supporter/student/decto] has joined #lisp 23:14:25 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:18:02 ... Galois fields? Didn't they have some application to error-correcting codes, particularly in RAID arrays? 23:18:03 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:18:14 they do 23:18:36 *Xach* hopes stassats is almost done with the qr code generator 23:19:59 hm...so I have this magical date and time library that is so magical I can not figure out how to check if two times are on the same day 23:20:27 cYmen: convert them to something you can compare? 23:20:49 i believe that the simple-date package in postmodern has some support for that kind of date comparison. 23:20:51 like use the same storage structure for dates. 23:21:12 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:21:58 I have some old code where I simply stored year, month, day tuples which I considered hideous and wanted to simplify.. 23:22:04 No luck it seems. 23:22:55 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@2001:858:745:a0e4:200:1aff:fe19:d355] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:25:46 maybe store as seconds since some date? :) 23:26:07 hrhr 23:26:08 (simple-date:encode-date 2010 11 29) => # 23:26:17 which can be turned into a universal time, or whatever. 23:26:54 republican_devil [d834eb65@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.52.235.101] has joined #lisp 23:27:49 eihrul [~eihrul@ip72-193-224-224.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:34 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.77.197] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 23:31:29 timestamps from the same package can encode hours/minutes/seconds 23:35:25 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:35:31 anyhow, it's a pretty nice little date lib. 23:35:37 I find it convenient at any rate. 23:38:34 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:41:31 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:42:11 I am having trouble coaxing clisp to compile using libsigsegv 23:42:15 ok gota that fixed 23:42:26 now it wont see readline I just freshly compiled 23:42:29 why? 23:42:37 it finally sees libsigsgv 23:42:42 libsigsegv 23:43:42 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-236-50.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:52 republican_devil: I have tried this many times. Never managed to do it. Why are you using clisp? 23:45:22 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:55 Fade: but I don't really want postmodern as a dependency.. 23:46:59 cYmen: the more dependencies, the better! 23:52:55 simple-date is a separate system, at least in quicklisp. :) 23:52:58 Jabberwock [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:55:57 *Xach* makes mental note: spot instances with low bids are not good for interactive quicklisp work 23:56:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:56:03 (ec2, that is) 23:56:38 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:56:58 Jabber_ [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:57:12 dunno 23:57:16 maybe will try sbcl 23:57:22 :( 23:58:09 republican_devil: sbcl is pretty awesome. 23:58:48 -!- Jabberwock [~Jens@f050067044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:59:27 republican_devil: hope to see you at ILC!