00:00:38 Hmm, sorry, nevermind. Now I'm imagining that the main use case for his argument is when you are using someone else's package, but then you also write your own package that provides the same interface. And you want the symbols to be unqualified so that you can alternate between implementations. 00:00:50 slyrus_: OK, how do you want to store the molecules? 00:00:54 Right. To within some epsilon, given FP rounding. 00:01:43 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-214-241-164.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:03:07 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6395.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:49 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C7AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:12:16 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:15:55 OK, I am off to bed. 00:16:04 -!- serichsen` [~user@f048036220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 00:17:09 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:09 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:17:09 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 00:19:32 alexandria could use a shorter nickname 00:21:11 *Xach* is deeply in love with amazon cloudfront today, adds Default Root Object support to zs3 git 00:21:16 "alex"? 00:21:29 -!- Evil_ [~nick@unaffiliated/evil/x-000666] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:21:44 that'd work 00:24:40 *Xach* has vicious deja vu over this very issue 00:24:59 successful lisp is cool 00:25:01 eheh 00:25:09 i skimmed so many chapters i see 00:25:47 one click and you are almost everywhere on that thing 00:25:52 aaahah 00:26:56 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.2.85] has joined #lisp 00:31:56 What is the best way to set optimization settings when you are in the thick of developing? Or, what is the recommended way to set (optimize debug) for all code in a package? 00:32:36 austinh: hmm, i usually spot-compile things that need high debug with C-u C-c C-c or C-u C-c C-k 00:32:45 I've never really understood that, and I thought Marshall's approach in that thread was kinda interesting. 00:32:51 austinh: I believe you can also do that from the slime debugger, on a frame. 00:33:25 Xach: Ah, I always forget about prepending C-u on C-c C-c. 00:33:33 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:09 *Xach* never forgets, it's the only thing in slime he is responsible for 00:34:52 My understanding is that a declaim will register the debug settings for the code that follows it, but is that only for the current file? 00:35:13 And is there a more global place to put a declaim, then? 00:35:34 in your .dot initialization file ? 00:35:42 austinh: there was recently a discussion here about how the file-scoping of declaim in sbcl and cmucl might not really be justified by anything the spec says 00:36:06 wbooze: I'd prefer that it's package specific. 00:38:31 in-package ? 00:38:36 declaim-special or so ? 00:38:39 i don't know 00:39:16 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:39:22 probably surrounded by something like when-load or so.... 00:43:18 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:44:41 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:51:33 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:11 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:57:27 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240::54] has joined #lisp 00:57:54 adeht [void@91.121.18.93] has joined #lisp 01:10:26 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:16:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@i219-167-153-216.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:16:19 *Xach* posts some of his survey results 01:17:12 Xach: What survey? 01:17:13 at least i couldn't fill the survey 01:17:15 or send 01:17:24 somehow it would freeze 01:17:32 don't know it was browser specific or so 01:17:38 but i even tried it from windows 01:21:43 Hexstream: my Quicklisp CL survey 01:22:02 wbooze: Your voice has not been heard! 01:22:09 Xach: Hum. So I missed that. Anyway, where are the results? 01:22:43 <_3b> Xach: charts aren't showing up 01:23:06 <_3b> links seem to work if i load them directly though 01:23:49 _3b: dang 01:23:56 *Xach* will have to cache them locally or something 01:28:01 Took me 5 minutes, but I finally realized it's on quicklisp.org ;P 01:30:57 _3b: any better? 01:31:03 pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:19 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:31:31 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:32:19 <_3b> Xach: yeah, works now 01:32:44 Xach: Ah, fuck. So I'm late for the survey? I answered all the questions and then FUCK, the submit button is disabled... 01:33:07 There should be a notice at the top, perhaps... 01:33:19 jso [~user@ip68-111-169-131.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:24 Hexstream: I'll check into it. 01:33:48 Hexstream: so you don't read planet lisp, lisp.reddit.com, #lisp on twitter, comp.lang.lisp, lisp-hug, or the Allegro newsletter? 01:34:03 No. 01:34:12 Though reading planet lisp might be a good idea ;P 01:34:24 -!- s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:34:57 I've been 100% lone-wolf since a few (10?) days ago. 01:35:12 like 25% of other responders 01:35:20 How did the 25% who don't interact with other CL users find out about the survey? 01:36:11 Maybe they just don't participate? 01:36:13 <_3b> a non-cl user could have told them about it 01:36:24 they could have browsed reddit 01:36:38 I'm not sure there are a lot among those 25% of responders that did 3+ years of completely lone-wolf development before like me ;P 01:37:14 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:37:28 Hexstream: that was not a question, I'm afraid. 01:37:49 Yeah, sorry, that was quite irrelevant. 01:39:17 I'm glad you did the survey; it's nice to see what other people are doing. 01:39:53 I'm quite the loner type but this isolation has been just a bit too much for me... And now I stop bothering you with this. 01:41:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:42:17 austinh: it had some surprises for me. i wish i had a strong sense that i reached into more CL communities. 01:42:55 austinh: I have a feeling that there's a group of commercial users who are completely unaware of the online CL communities where I asked for responses. 01:43:27 I was unaware of IRC at all until I was dabbling with Lisp. 01:43:58 Xach: I think maybe PCL's quote from you was the first time I'd heard about it. 01:44:19 heh 01:44:23 Xach: Sorry, where are the results of this survey? 01:44:30 *Xach* just passed year 15 of IRC 01:44:39 franki^: planet lisp 01:45:04 Thanks 01:45:53 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:47:09 I have been working on some multi-agent cooperative pathfinding in Lisp. I have a little demo (requires SVG): http://pettomato.com/static/games/restaurant/pathfinding_demo/ 01:48:53 pretty 01:55:18 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-61-75.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:58:33 Fare: hmm, I am a little confused by asdf's initialize-source-registry with :inherit-configuration. 01:59:02 Once you have CL, there's no point in using close languages such as Clojure, Ruby or Python... 01:59:10 C may still have some points. 01:59:12 Fare: "You may extend or override configuration from the environment and configuration files with the given PARAMETER" 01:59:41 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:09 -!- TheLolrus is now known as Xarver 02:00:52 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:02:29 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:02:35 Fare: However, when I try to call it multiple times to extend the configuration multiple times, it seems only to take the last thing, even if I use :inherit-configuration 02:02:35 Fare: I can't tell what I might be doing wrong 02:03:15 Singularity will be the war of the minds over the genes. Why should our selfish genes keep bossing us around. We've got brains. Once we move our brains to artificial systems, we can evolve consciously our mental processes independently from the DNA substrate. Let's write more AI in Lisp! 02:03:29 *pjb* needs some sleep. Good night. 02:03:51 yum brains. 02:04:07 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:33 minion: Chant! 02:04:33 MORE AI 02:05:59 I wonder how much brains would shrink without having the body around. 02:06:15 -!- jso [~user@ip68-111-169-131.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:20 Xach: It does seem odd with 25% not interacting with anyone. How did they even find the survey? 02:06:34 Or would expand, if allowed to manage more "I/O devices" :-) 02:06:48 schmrkc: If you fill out a newspaper survey, does that mean you interact with other newspaper readers? 02:07:09 Well I think so, yeah. 02:07:11 *schmrkc* shrugs. 02:07:38 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:07:40 schmrkc: How so? 02:08:44 Xach: I am looking up interact in an english dictionary. Maybe it does not have the same meaning as I'm used to. 02:08:44 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:54 you interact with the newspaper agency.. if the agency reads its own newspaper... ;) 02:10:39 well I dunno. 02:10:50 to be responding to a lispers survey is interacting with a lisper. :S 02:11:04 but I'm really not very good with english so I could be wrong :) 02:11:17 schmrkc: Sorry, I didn't think to add "Respond to surveys" as an option. 02:11:31 hahaha 02:14:48 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:14:53 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-15-206.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:16:22 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:17:24 -!- sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:17:24 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:17:58 If you are reworking a package and you want to clean it out of the image so that you can reload it freshly, is there a proper way to do that? If I use delete-package, then the package cannot be found when I try to reload it. 02:18:32 austinh: reload with asdf? 02:18:58 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:19:18 Xach: Do you know if that's the same as ",reload" in slime? 02:19:30 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:40 sorry, ,reload-system 02:20:45 austinh: Wasn't a suggestion, I'm wondering what you mean by trying to reload. 02:20:52 I don't know 02:21:02 I don't know what ,reload-system does, sorry. 02:22:29 Xach: Ha, sorry. I'm trying to cleanup my package and I'm hitting lots of issues and I want to just remove it and try to load it again to see if I can get a load without errors. 02:23:05 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-147-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:24:37 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:40 austinh: I tried this here.. (require 'foo) (delete-package 'foo) (require 'foo) and that indeed failed me :) 02:25:03 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx53-2b-76.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:05 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.60.73] has joined #lisp 02:25:24 austinh: ,reload-system seems to do it for me. 02:25:53 schmrkc: Seems to do what? Cleanly remove the system and then load it again? Or, reload it on top of itself (if that makes sense)? 02:26:02 humm. 02:26:05 good question. 02:26:20 I'm under the impression that it's the latter. 02:26:21 *schmrkc* isn't even sure what delete-package actually does. 02:26:25 interesting. 02:26:33 *schmrkc* tries some stuff then. 02:26:53 -!- Xarver [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:57 austinh: by default, asdf decides whether to compile & load based on the file timestamps of the source and fasl files. the state of the packages isn't taken into consideration. 02:27:03 hoh 02:27:07 *schmrkc* crashed sbcl then. 02:27:25 austinh: there might be an option to (asdf:load-system ...) to make it load without considering timestamps 02:27:27 Xach: that's good to know 02:27:37 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Bye bye] 02:27:49 integrity of this image is possibly compromised. 02:27:50 heh 02:28:55 that's amusing. 02:29:28 (defvar cl-opengl::foo) (delete-package :cl-opengl) ,reload-system and this makes life unstable. 02:34:19 cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has joined #lisp 02:34:34 *Xach* should have investigated this asdf issue much earlier 02:36:13 wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 02:36:46 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:40:21 (do-symbols 'package) will get me the symbols in a package. I want to catalog which functions call each symbol. Suggestions on where to look? 02:42:25 wol: implementations often have cross-referencing functions. in sbcl, the sb-introspect:who-calls function might help. 02:42:42 wol: Difficult to do unless your lisp has a cross-reference facility. 02:42:48 using sbcl 02:43:08 I think you also need to compile the code with xref enabled, too. 02:43:31 thanks 02:46:22 ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:46:22 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:43 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:47:08 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:48:24 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:28 sb-introspect:who-calls does exactly what I want. 02:49:31 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:12 Xach: I'm having problem loading hunchentoot on quicklisp demo 02:53:26 anonymous [~sabalaba@219.237.160.35] has joined #lisp 02:53:29 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f72ceaa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:51 -!- anonymous is now known as Guest14515 02:54:04 The quicklisp I have is from end of July. The error is "The slot ASDF:SOURCE-FILE is unbound in the object # 02:54:35 Oh, and I'm using sbcl on Aquamacs 02:54:41 On CCL it works 02:55:05 peterhil: let us chat about it on #quicklisp, ok? 02:55:35 Ok 02:55:44 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f725626.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:56:04 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240::54] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:04:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:04:52 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442446.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:05:30 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:31 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:08:19 -!- Guest14515 [~sabalaba@219.237.160.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:09:57 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442446.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:10:04 -!- MultiMind [~moot@adsl-76-237-182-116.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:15:55 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:20:18 MultiMind [~moot@adsl-76-237-198-27.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:07 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 03:24:56 why eval (slime-eval `(ccl:find-symbol "xyz")) disconnect slime to lisp? 03:37:28 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-24-147-116-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:18 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:42:18 -!- boysetsf1og [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 03:42:35 -!- ska`` [~user@ppp-115-87-234-154.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:42:39 boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:42:52 actually (slime-eval `(find-symbol "xyz")) does that too 03:44:07 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:51:45 -!- bzzbzz_ [~franco@70.83.34.240] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:52:32 -!- pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:54:18 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:55:12 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:04 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:03:20 Is there some known bug or gotcha regarding shadowing symbols and then getting errors because those symbols are unbound? 04:03:28 -!- wareya [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:04:08 I have a package that shadow a symbol from another package, but then when the compiler tries to compile the function with that symbol name, I get an unbound variable error. 04:04:39 wareya [~wareya@74.70.142.220] has joined #lisp 04:12:00 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 04:12:10 -!- dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has quit [Quit: dreish] 04:14:45 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 04:17:46 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:22:16 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 04:22:29 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 04:24:21 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-24-147-116-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:27:13 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.60.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:31:07 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:32:41 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:51 psilord [~psilord@adsl-71-150-251-181.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:29 -!- Zer [~Zer@cpe-24-166-80-78.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:37:30 -!- psilord [~psilord@adsl-71-150-251-181.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:39:19 I'm an idiot. I didn't have :common-lisp in my :use list. 04:43:38 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:43:59 haha 04:44:01 nice 04:48:05 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 04:48:11 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 04:48:26 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:50:46 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:25 sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:19 -!- Kaes [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:09:38 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:10:42 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:15:17 any idea why (slime-eval `(find-symbol "xyz")) disconnects slime? 05:16:07 it can't find FIND-SYMBOL? 05:16:22 try cl:find-symbol 05:17:17 stassats: nice. but should it disconnect? 05:18:03 no 05:20:39 Good morning! 05:27:24 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 05:29:09 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:31:50 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 05:35:01 allo beach 05:35:18 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-249-154.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:35:45 oh it's a .fr address..i should be jealous but with global warming this is actually the more temporate place for the moment 05:37:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.240] has joined #lisp 05:38:20 <---may it always be so (NOT) 05:40:32 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-114-65.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 05:50:25 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:52:08 mmmmm.. temporate place. 05:52:18 -!- schme is now known as schmrkc 05:55:42 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.60.246] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 06:01:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:08:34 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.241.144.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:08:43 TomJ [~tomj@89.241.147.59] has joined #lisp 06:16:08 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 06:16:14 -!- Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:17:39 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has left #lisp 06:20:09 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:22:54 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:23:14 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 06:30:26 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:30:48 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 06:31:40 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@181.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:32:04 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:35:23 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:35:23 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 06:35:23 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:00:39 Kaes [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:09:40 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok094010.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:10:26 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok094010.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:10:31 kingless [~kingless@adsl-242-215-95.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:36 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:15:10 z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 07:15:10 -!- z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [Changing host] 07:15:10 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 07:20:21 -!- kingless [~kingless@adsl-242-215-95.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:23:23 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:24 kingless [~kingless@166.137.12.94] has joined #lisp 07:24:12 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:24:57 -!- MultiMind [~moot@adsl-76-237-198-27.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: MultiMind] 07:25:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:36:01 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:37:07 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:37:21 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:38:51 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:46:09 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:46:25 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:47:11 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:52:07 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 07:54:14 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55:50 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 07:56:16 xan_ [~xan@i219-167-153-216.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:56:26 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:57:49 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 07:58:17 pkhuong_: Thanks for suggesting that method. It works great, and it is very fast. 08:01:05 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:33 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06:43 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E25A43.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-249.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:08:07 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:08:18 moah [~gnu@178.1.122.131] has joined #lisp 08:16:40 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:19:17 splittist [~John@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:19:23 morning 08:23:56 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:24:03 hi 08:26:33 mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:30:37 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 08:33:27 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:33:28 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:53 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-114-65.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:34:49 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-3-161.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:36:05 hello splittist 08:39:42 -!- dys` is now known as dys 08:45:32 urandom__ [~user@p548A420A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:43 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-147-50.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 08:50:04 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-60-82-254-233-53.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:26 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:50:54 yay! Quicklisp beta is now available (-: 08:57:06 nice! 08:57:15 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 08:58:28 vinleod [~vince@c-24-21-184-89.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:46 atomx [~user@92.81.118.66] has joined #lisp 08:59:55 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-161-252.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:00:24 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-5-160.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:06:23 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:07:59 -!- kingless [~kingless@166.137.12.94] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 09:08:56 kingless [~user@adsl-242-215-95.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:50 ska` [~user@ppp-115-87-221-157.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:18:28 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:18:30 yakov_ [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 09:20:00 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25:03 *Xach* didn't get any of the documentation done he hoped to do :( 09:25:39 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-170-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:25:47 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-170-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:26:11 Blkt [~user@93-33-136-136.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:26:33 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:26:42 Xach: but the survey results were interesting. 09:26:50 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:51 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 09:33:15 -!- Kaes [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:35:46 good day everyone 09:39:00 Kaes [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:43:55 josemanuel [~josemanue@113.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:49:49 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 09:55:11 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu211.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:56:11 H4ns` [~user@p579F87FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:32 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.2.85] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:00:19 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9ED1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:03:57 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 10:06:29 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:14:43 sepp2k [~sexy@p548CFA0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:35 yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:49 -!- vinleod [~vince@c-24-21-184-89.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:22:00 hello Blkt 10:24:42 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@113.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 10:27:09 hi 10:27:28 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:30:05 -!- yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:33 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C9FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:17 http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html woo 10:41:29 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 10:44:29 Oh, until-it-dies is a game  I thought it might be some almost-infinite looping system. 10:44:45 Xach: do people that had downloaded QL before have to upgrade it? 10:44:57 What are the cases where (string sym), where sym is a symbol, should return "Package:SymbolName" instead of "SymbolName"? 10:45:03 game and almost-infinite looping system sound the same =) 10:45:18 humasect: touche. 10:45:44 Blkt: no 10:45:56 Blkt: but the old one won't be updated any more 10:46:35 Modius: never. 10:46:49 Modius: STRING returns the symbol-name of the symbol. 10:46:53 Xach: you owe it to the people to post your results on reddit! 10:47:06 benny: nah 10:47:08 Okay. Lispworks is doing it in a certain situation in built applications, I guess it's a bug. 10:47:25 Modius: it's possible for the symbol-name of a symbol to have a colon, though. 10:47:39 benny: lispm needs more karma! 10:47:45 ;-) 10:52:07 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:52:34 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:52:45 yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:09 what does the ":use" function do here? (defpackage :retro-games (:use :cl :cl-who :hunchentoot :parenscript)) 10:53:09 10:53:36 yates: It is not a function. It is part of the syntax of defpackage. 10:53:42 clhs defpackage 10:53:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 10:53:50 netfrog [~netfrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #lisp 10:54:04 yates: It makes the retro-games package use the other 4 packages mentioned. 10:54:14 yates: when reading symbols when the *package* is the retro-games package, symbols from cl, cl-who, hunchentoot, and parenscript may be used without package prefixes. 10:55:17 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens_] 10:56:00 but i thought ALL forms contain a function as the first element? 10:56:13 is there a built-in function to get the package and the symbol out of things like swank:describe-function? 10:56:35 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.250.91] has joined #lisp 10:56:37 yates: nope. 10:56:57 leo2007: swank:describe-function is a symbol 10:57:12 leo2007: you can get its name as a string with (symbol-name 'swank:describe-function) 10:57:32 clhs symbol-package 10:57:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_3.htm 10:57:38 leo2007: or its home package with (symbol-package 'swank:describe-function) 10:57:48 though note that it may be not "SWANK" 10:57:53 thanks 10:59:54 in the syntax section for the defpackage on that clhs page, what do the "*" mean? 11:00:14 yates: zero or more 11:00:34 ah 11:00:36 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:00:46 just like in regexp.. 11:02:18 , 11:02:31 it is a very clean star 11:02:39 yates: you are correct, but (:use :cl) is not a form. It's a sub-form of the (defpackage ...) form. 11:04:23 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:43 i thought ALL parenthesized expressions were forms. 11:04:59 " parenthesized expression is referred to as a form ." 11:05:10 http://www.adampetersen.se/articles/lispweb.htm 11:05:24 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:05:29 kwmiebach [~ad@xdsl-87-78-38-161.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:07:55 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.250.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:09:04 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:09:21 stassats: C-c C-d f/d/v do not find symbols unless the point is at it. So I am creating this function http://paste.pocoo.org/show/273076 11:09:23 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:13:49 -!- lispm [~joswig@g224046078.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:18:03 lispm [~joswig@g224047019.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:18:07 anyone trying the google AI challenge? 11:19:39 davazp [~user@83.54.165.216] has joined #lisp 11:20:29 me and aerique for sure 11:20:29 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20:43 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:20:58 mega is working on it, too, I think 11:21:12 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:22:36 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:23:02 I think I saw him on #aichallenge 11:23:41 Blkt, I downloaded aerique started pack last night 11:24:15 I'm considering having a play, though I am a little late starting 11:25:57 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 11:26:01 naah, you got plenty of time 11:26:04 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E25A43.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:26:07 cya later 11:26:11 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-136-136.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: quit] 11:31:01 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 11:32:04 -!- davazp [~user@83.54.165.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35:04 -!- kingless [~user@adsl-242-215-95.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:35:08 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:43:40 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:46:14 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:48:53 ASau` [~user@77.246.230.186] has joined #lisp 11:49:36 -!- ASau [~user@77.246.230.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:50:27 yates: well, that's not correct. All parenthesised expressions are s-exp (Symbolic Expressions), but only executable s-exp are forms. Now of course the problem is that for any data you can always define an interpreter. For example, (:use :cl) is interpreted by defpackage, so you could call it a defpackage-form. But it is not an eval-form. (eval '(:use :cl)) is an intrinsic error (a program-error). 11:51:39 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 11:52:56 -!- lnostdal [~quassel@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 11:53:08 -!- neomage [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:53:09 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 11:53:29 lnostdal [~quassel@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:53:33 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 11:54:52 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-147-50.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:56:39 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:57:16 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:57:49 smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:19 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-214-219.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 12:00:01 kingless [~user@adsl-242-215-95.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:07 -!- kingless [~user@adsl-242-215-95.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:01:11 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.250.91] has joined #lisp 12:01:39 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 12:04:52 xristos [~x@c-174-61-40-23.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:54 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:05:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:06:19 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 12:08:28 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 12:08:29 HG` [~HG@xdslfd067.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:08:34 gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 12:08:48 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-214-219.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:10:22 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-139-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:07 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-191-33.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:19 -!- gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has quit [Client Quit] 12:14:09 gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 12:17:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:23:07 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 12:23:57 sellout [~greg@64.134.67.12] has joined #lisp 12:29:48 -!- _3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:30:11 pjb: i see - thank you for that 12:30:20 -!- bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:31:22 are "form" and "executable s-exp" synonymous? 12:32:42 there is no such term, "executable s-exp" 12:33:01 stassats: tell pbj 12:33:06 i mean pjb 12:33:14 i'm just interpreting his paragraph above 12:33:46 i'm telling everyone 12:33:48 asked another way, what is the definition of a "form"? 12:34:25 "form n. 1. any object meant to be evaluated. 2. a symbol, a compound form, or a self-evaluating object. 3. (for an operator, as in ``<> form'') a compound form having that operator as its first element. ``A quote form is a constant form.''" 12:34:27 clhs form 12:34:28 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for form. 12:34:43 form n. 1. any object meant to be evaluated. 2. a symbol, a compound form, or a self-evaluating object. 3. (for an operator, as in ``<> form'') a compound form having that operator as its first element. ``A quote form is a constant form.'' 12:34:44 stassats: where did you get that from? 12:35:05 (stassats wins) 12:35:18 yates: from CLHS 12:36:17 clhs,"form" 12:36:33 yates: You would have to look in the glossary yourself. 12:36:50 i see 12:36:51 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-93-112.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:39:34 so "form" and "evaluatable s-exp" are synonymous 12:40:17 Bronsa [~bronsa@host169-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:40:22 clhs 12:42:41 except that there is no such term 12:42:52 s-exp is not in the glossary? i can't find it under "s" 12:43:28 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:44:31 so "form" and "evaluatable object" are synonymous? 12:44:57 why are you trying to invent synonyms? 12:45:06 understanding 12:45:10 yates: And except that it is not quite true. It says "meant to be evaluated" not "possible to evaluate" or (as you call it) "evaluatable". For instance in (let ((print 5)) (1+ print)), the expression (print 5) is certainly possible to evaluate, but it is in a position which makes it not happen so it is not "meant to be evaluated". 12:46:09 you have the glossary and the whole CLHS, which contains definitions 12:46:17 not some synonyms 12:46:28 stassats: did you learn lisp from a book? 12:47:00 yes 12:47:36 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-29-5.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:48:04 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-5-160.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-249.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:50:39 beach: so in the example you give, "(print 5)" would NOT be considered a form? 12:50:59 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:51:04 yates: Correct. 12:51:11 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:51:36 it's becoming more clear - thank you beach 12:51:42 No problem. 12:51:48 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:06 beach is a professionnal professor. No wonder he can make things become more clear! Congratulations! 12:52:16 Thanks! 12:52:52 i'm also getting hung up on "object" versus "symbol" 12:53:07 yates: object is any possible value. 12:53:07 yates: A symbol is just one kind of object. 12:54:26 beach: where do you teach? 12:54:37 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:54:57 yates: University of Bordeaux. 12:56:45 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 12:56:47 what kinds of things can objects be? 12:56:48 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:56:52 besides symbol? 12:57:04 numbers, classes, ... 12:57:10 yates: Numbers, characters, cons-cells, class instances, etc. 12:57:28 yates: packages, hash tables, streams, 12:57:46 yates: arrays, structures, 12:57:55 is there a book or on-line reference that defines these in a manner suitable for a beginning lisp student? 12:58:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:58:37 i should say, these and other fundamental lisp concepts... 12:58:40 yates: The glossary is pretty clear about the definition of `object'. 12:58:47 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:58:56 minion: Tell yates about gentle! 12:58:56 yates: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 12:59:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:00:31 thank you 13:00:37 No problem. 13:02:13 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-191-33.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:02:31 beach: btw, the glossary uses the term "datum" which seems vague to me. 13:02:59 yates: It is vague, because it is a word that means basically "anything". 13:03:38 5-day old pepperoni pizza? :) 13:04:07 Almost anything. 13:04:45 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-147-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:51 A 5-day old pepperoni pizza is probably a "datum" but not a "Lisp datum", which would mean "anything that a Lisp program can manipulate". 13:05:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 13:05:33 A pizza is hardly a "datum", though knowledge of its existence would be. 13:05:42 (G'morning all.) 13:05:47 hello nyef 13:05:52 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:06:10 yates: When you start trying to define terms like "object", "datum", and "thing", you are going to run out of ideas, and start using synonyms in circular definitions. 13:06:48 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:07:48 carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.153] has joined #lisp 13:08:43 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-10.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:11 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:25 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslfd067.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:10:53 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 13:11:06 beach: i was going to say, "how can that be? if one can write a program to interpret such things, mustn't they be VERY well-defined? (re: object and datum)" 13:11:18 but i'll not do that and simply do some more reading... 13:11:59 however, this is not the first or second time that such terms have been a stumbling block for me 13:12:13 perhaps i am just dense or stupid. 13:12:42 Perhaps you need to define other terms for what you're working with? 13:13:16 nyef: "what you're working with"? i'm just trying to grok the language 13:13:23 Ah. 13:13:36 yates: Do you know any other programming language? 13:13:54 C, C++, fortran (a long time ago), multiple assembly languages 13:13:58 Right, forgot about the context established by the first part of this conversation that I saw. 13:14:20 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:14:48 basic 13:15:02 Then you might use PCL instead of Gentle. 13:15:04 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:15:08 minion: Tell yates about PCL. 13:15:09 yates: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 13:15:13 nyef: thank you anyway 13:15:54 beach: yes, i'm trying that too. it seems it's too much example-based without enough concept definition 13:16:14 i may be stupid, but i'm persistent 13:16:19 i'll get it, eventually... 13:17:24 yates: A Lisp datum *is* very well defined. It just gets so tiring to say "number or character or cons cell or array or hash table or package or symbol or structure or class or class instance, or function or method or ..." 13:17:35 -!- yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:18:12 hurrah, my copy of PAIP has arrived 13:18:31 I could almost suggest using DISASSEMBLE on various functions to see what they do, but it's a bit... involved, and could lead to being even more overwhelmed. 13:18:34 Guthur: Congratulations! 13:18:46 Guthur: Indeed. Enjoy it. 13:19:15 nyef, beach: cheers, I will 13:19:39 -!- yakov_ [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:52 I'm going to start my google AI challenge entry today as well. 13:23:38 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:56 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 13:25:08 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:27:52 yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:10 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:29:15 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:25 is a macro a type of object? 13:32:49 No. 13:32:49 as well as symbols, functions, variables, print names? 13:33:13 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:33:27 variables are not objects either, but the names of variables are. 13:33:39 (because names of variables are symbols) 13:35:00 *yates* needs to read more... 13:35:24 And while a macro is not an object, the "macro function" that carries out the job of a macro, is an object. 13:37:10 derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:15 -!- derekv [~derekv@c-68-62-78-203.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:39:10 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 13:40:27 beach: it is precisely these types of semantic mind-locks that keep me at the beginning level... i'm hoping it is because i just haven't learned enough of the basics yet 13:41:50 Like you said, you will get it eventually. 13:42:05 thx :) 13:46:50 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:28 Well macros have definitely a representation in Common Lisp: the macro-function. 13:47:35 macro-functions are lisp objects. 13:47:49 davazp [~user@83.54.165.216] has joined #lisp 13:47:59 My general point is that with software, you only always deal with _representations_. 13:48:16 -!- lnostdal [~quassel@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:34 5-day old pepperoni pizza is not a datum, but "5-day old pepperoni pizza" or (5-day old pepperoni pizza) or # are. 13:48:59 You would need a robot to be able to process a 5-day old pepperoni pizza. 13:49:23 or a tin stomach 13:49:28 lnostdal [~quassel@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:31 But then, if you believe we're living in a computer simulation, the difference between representation and represented is only a question of level. 13:50:02 "the red pill or the blue pill" 13:50:16 Exactly. 13:51:15 But with the most important question: whether our universe is hygienic or not. Ie. whether there's an overlap of the software and hardware levels, or whether they're entirely distinct. 13:51:37 hardware always matters 13:51:45 reality matters 13:52:41 In Mathematics, you have the same problem when trying to define formal semantics. 13:53:12 and then don't forget about the incompleteness theorem 13:53:30 You can only define a semantics with respect to another mathematical model. Hopefully simplier or easier to understand or more practical to deal with, but you've not really progressed: it's all turtles down under. 13:53:58 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-75-183.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:54:50 stassats: yes, but it doesn't prevent the construction of formal structures matching true statements, even if without proof. Proofs are something more restricted in formal systems. 13:55:39 Agrippan trilemma: assumption, circularity, infinite regress 13:55:50 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-15-206.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:56:27 Does anyone know about a weblocks "getting started" kind of tutorial? 13:57:02 adeht: I choose option 3, it's no reason for skepticism. 13:57:09 drdo: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-weblocks/ 13:57:13 see "breaking the ice" 13:57:36 -!- davazp [~user@83.54.165.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:15 Or rather, infinite regression and circularity are valid explanations. 13:58:50 pjb: I do not share your standard 13:59:00 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-38-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:59:15 in fact, the only plausible solution is assumption 13:59:28 don't these sorts of things end almost spiritually? 13:59:50 Innevitably. 14:00:14 yates: i have, i didn't find it satisfactory 14:04:06 hi :) does anyone used any Literate Programming system for Common LISP? something like Knuth & Levy's cweb for C/C++ 14:04:10 V-ille [~ville@80-186-250-210.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 14:04:18 gadek: yes. 14:04:56 pjb: what it was? :) 14:05:13 Looking it up. I crossed it this week. 14:05:32 pjb: Someone gave a talk in Lisbon about that, remember? 14:06:13 Right. 14:06:41 Ah, cl-org-mode did it. 14:06:45 gadek: on the really simple side there is pbook.el. And there is always org-babel (also for emacs). 14:07:03 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/ 14:07:59 splittist, pjb: thanks :) 14:08:04 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:08:19 Drew used org-mode to write literate CL, and the cl-org-mode parser can extract lisp code ("tangle" in literate speak). 14:08:59 gadek: there is another system out there too... 14:09:33 Ah, CLWEB. 14:09:47 ANd in Lisbon, yes. CLWeb, by Plotnick. 14:09:56 That's the one Alex Plotnick presented. 14:10:33 gadek: http://pages.cs.brandeis.edu/~plotnick/clweb/ 14:10:35 Two systems, time for a cliki page! 14:10:49 beach: oh, CLWEB looks very familiar to cweb :D great! 14:12:41 Could someone explain to me what grovel means in the context of lisp or sbcl? I don't really understand it from the sb-grovel documentation. It is also used in the experimental sbcl tree shaker 14:13:51 new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:14:43 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.189] has joined #lisp 14:15:25 sepi: I'm not sure, I never approached it really, but I think it's parsing C header files to generate automatically FFI. 14:15:50 -!- new-lisper is now known as valium97582 14:15:59 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:16:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:16:18 Did someone say Lisbon? Is anyone here portuguese? 14:16:44 pjb: hmm, then I guess the grovel in http://jsnell.iki.fi/tmp/shake.lisp means something else... 14:17:06 drdo: ELS2010 was in Lisbon. And indeed, there are portuguese lispers, eg. at SISCOG. 14:17:27 drdo: http://www.siscog.pt 14:17:37 pjb: I know SISCOG's founders 14:17:46 I've taken several courses with them as lecturers 14:17:52 They teach at my univ 14:18:04 Ok. :-) 14:18:32 the lisp community on Brazil seems to be smaller than that of Portugal 14:18:43 many people prefer visual basic 14:18:45 ugh. 14:18:49 sepi: "to grovel" is a rather generic verb. Meanings approximately "to process laboriously"... 14:19:15 (in our context). 14:19:16 The introductory programming course at my univ is basically a ripoff of SICP 14:19:25 sepi: it's "grovel" in the sense of "crawl"... it crawls the lisp objects and chooses which ones to keep 14:19:38 drdo: To find out who on #lisp is from Portugal, you can do grep join * | grep \\.pt or something like that. 14:19:50 pjb: adeht: Ok, now I see. Thanks 14:20:27 That would be most approximative. People move, or don't necessarily have national domain names. 14:20:54 pjb: It gives an idea. 14:22:00 drdo: There are about 20 recent visits from Portugal according to that method. 14:22:42 -!- splittist [~John@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: ERESTARTREQUIRED] 14:23:05 beach: cool 14:23:15 It's really unfortunate that sbcl does not have a good tree-shaker and that the experimental one is not documented 14:25:23 splittist [~John@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:26:53 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 14:27:00 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:27:17 sepi: Switch to a system that does have one. 14:35:01 quicklisp is awesome, just saying :) 14:35:28 weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:39 beach: what would you recommend? 14:36:46 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:59 sepi: I don't use a tree shaker, but it seems Lispworks and Allegro both have good ones. 14:37:22 sepi: Your other option is to take the experimental one, make it good, and document it. 14:37:41 Or just not bother with tree-shaking anymore. 14:38:46 nyef: That's what I'm trying to do :) 14:39:24 what experimental tree shaker? for which implementation? (sorry i just came in) 14:39:28 beach: well, I'd rather use a free implementation 14:39:32 nyef: even small computers you can hold in your pocket have more than 16 GB of memory, if not more than 64 GB... 14:39:44 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 14:40:09 jleija: Some experimental shaker for SBCL. I remember that there was one, but not the details. 14:40:44 nyef: ah. ok. i didn't know. i'll look it up. tnx 14:40:51 -!- _joey [~user@115.131.194.22] has left #lisp 14:41:39 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-10.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 14:41:49 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 14:41:50 sepi: If you use sbcl, I think you could use clod to see how to introspect a sbcl image, and to make it into a tree shaker. 14:43:01 pjb: what about caches? 14:43:19 -!- netfrog [~netfrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has left #lisp 14:43:20 for a tree shaker? Irrelevant. 14:43:46 What you want is to build the call graph. 14:44:04 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:46 HG` [~HG@xdslfd067.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:44:57 I think that, should I need to deliver a small image, I'd seriously consider abandoning strict CL semantics. 14:46:00 pjb: that's what the grovel method in http://jsnell.iki.fi/tmp/shake.lisp does recursively as far as I understand 14:46:08 Theorically, it's possible to determine it with static analysis (tree shaker, type inference, partial execution, etc). 14:46:18 -!- valium97582 is now known as new-lisper 14:46:58 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:24 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:47:32 Theory is wonderful: Everything works there! 14:47:46 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 14:48:23 nyef: what I'm saying is that I believe it would be less work to do a general tree shaker, than to keep inventing subsets of languages over and over. 14:49:08 On the other hand, you could bet that singularity will occur before we implement a general tree shaker. 14:49:18 Let's stop all we're doing, singularity is close! 14:50:17 I still think that tree-shaking is the wrong approach. 14:50:31 xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.78.42] has joined #lisp 14:50:46 nyef: the wrong approach for creating small images? 14:50:54 Yeah. 14:51:14 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.77.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:51:16 nyef: why ? 14:51:17 Well, I wouldn't say it's for creating small image. I'd say it's for creating small statically linked programs. 14:51:35 It's probably my C background speaking. 14:51:47 nyef: it's what the ELF linker does with static archives 14:52:25 Sure, and what the a.out linker did before it. 14:52:38 I fail to see what's wrong with that. 14:52:51 I remain unconvinced. 14:53:30 nyef: do you mean you would like to include features that are not used statically, just in case they would be used at run-time? 14:54:02 I'm not sure /what/ I mean. 14:54:19 the question is how effective it is.. for many programs I'd imagine the answer would be: ineffective 14:54:39 adeht: nowadays, few programs use compile or eval. 14:55:08 And those who do can either accept big images, or explicitely designate what they will need at run-time. 14:56:03 pjb: what about READ? 14:56:15 (print (read)) poses no problem. 14:56:24 (eval (read)) will have to deal with the full image. 14:56:24 #.(yeah-right) 14:56:38 adeht: Same again, a great number of programs don't use READ. 14:56:44 For (eval (process (read))) we may infer what is needed, or exect an explicit list. 14:57:15 in any case, that is just my guess.. I don't have any statistics to back it up ;) 15:00:30 nyef: I think a great many programs do use READ (or READ-FROM-STRING).. if not application code, library code 15:00:51 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.67.12] has quit [Quit: sellout] 15:00:53 "library code"? 15:01:02 You mean, at runtime, or at compile-time? 15:01:08 at runtime 15:01:43 Perhaps, but many don't. 15:02:11 ok :) 15:12:10 gabnet [~gabnet@72.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:21 I'm writing a program where I need a table to be created at the time the user calls a function, the table then needs to be available right down the stack and is let go when the original function returns. Obviously this is a lot easier to program if the table is global, instead of passing the table to each and every function. This is no problem if there is only one thread, but what if there is more than one? Do dynamic variables work as expected with threa 15:14:52 Borbus: Yes, the binding of a special variable is usually per-thread. 15:14:55 Dynamic binding is, typically, thread-local. 15:17:05 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:30 rvirding [~chatzilla@112.2.5.118] has joined #lisp 15:20:27 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@112.2.5.118] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:00 rvirding [~chatzilla@202.111.50.2] has joined #lisp 15:22:14 you could define the table creating function as a closure. 15:26:44 -!- lispm [~joswig@g224047019.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:48 morning 15:27:54 yo slyrus_ 15:28:02 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 15:28:14 how's quicklisp day coming along? 15:28:47 it's "blowing up" the twitters 15:29:34 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@202.111.50.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:30:17 http://twitter.com/#!/quicklisp/status/26830667084 named one of twitter's "Top Tweets" of 2010 15:30:31 *Xach* hopes he can come out ahead of Conan O'Brien 15:32:13 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:32:57 excellent 15:34:37 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-10.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:21 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:49 daniel [~daniel@p5082BCDE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:10 psilord [~psilord@76.201.154.11] has joined #lisp 15:36:14 -!- psilord [~psilord@76.201.154.11] has left #lisp 15:37:27 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326059.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:39:03 rvirding [~chatzilla@202.111.50.2] has joined #lisp 15:39:08 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@202.111.50.2] has quit [Client Quit] 15:42:33 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:43 dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has joined #lisp 15:43:49 Joreji 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[~test@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:43 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:54 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442446.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 16:05:17 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:06:56 -!- p_l|uni is now known as p_l|home 16:06:59 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:00 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 16:07:19 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-29-5.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 16:07:23 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 16:09:23 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:09:39 Fade: regarding web frameworks... what do you think about UCW's RERL, coupled with bits of hunchentoot API, as Lisp replacement for Rack: http://rack.rubyforge.org/ 16:11:07 I think UCW is super solid 16:11:34 Rack is kinda similar to what RERL in UCW does 16:11:47 after reading chaper 1 in gentle, i find i cannot answer this question: "Why is FALSE true in Lisp?" 16:12:22 (p.38) 16:12:29 tbh, I'd much rather see a web framework use the good pieces we already have than invent them all over again. 16:12:35 (acrobat p.38, book page 26) 16:12:39 one of the nicer examples of "more advanced" Rack use was adding RPC channel for ExtJS into an existing application, by simply adding apropriate handler at Rack level 16:12:45 what's needed is integration and documentation at this point. 16:12:55 symbolicweb does stuff that I've never seen anywhere else. 16:13:04 yates: there is one false value in Common Lisp: nil 16:13:13 Fade: that's why I'm interested in extracting a very common and very useful bit (RERL) so that I could use it with *all* frameworks 16:14:22 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 16:14:30 well, as drew has shown with LoL and FTW, UCW is eminently hookable. 16:14:52 the only thing missing in UCW is a user community and documentation. 16:15:09 I sort of envy Rack in how all those Rack-based frameworks can interchangeably use certain stuff (Need to go FastCGI? it's already there. built-in server? plug any Rack-compatible one...) 16:15:18 Xach: i see, in the sense that, e.g., (NOT 'FALSE) is nil 16:16:11 you could really build a kickass base on top of nginx and ucw. 16:17:34 rvirding [~chatzilla@202.111.50.2] has joined #lisp 16:17:47 Fade: right now I'm reading through getting-started.txt for the 'nth time to see how exactly I'm going to do some stuff 16:18:17 yeah. you're going to have to dig into the code; that document is truncated. :( 16:18:31 but it will get you to a basic running app 16:18:43 gnooth [~test@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:02 rack uses CPS? 16:19:55 bhyde [~Adium@74.61.201.1] has joined #lisp 16:21:33 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:48 Fade: Rack is equivalent of UCW's basic RERL functionality - you build frameworks on top of it, which might use CPS 16:22:00 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:22:43 *nod* 16:22:55 does rails use CPS? 16:24:43 afaik none of the Ruby frameworks use CPS (and frankly speaking the thing I am building isn't going to use it as well) 16:25:18 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@202.111.50.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:27:00 What is this #\u00C5 ? 16:27:30 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:27:50 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:29:09 lhz: I imagine it's a reader macro for unicode code-point #x00c5 16:30:09 I get the clisp error *** - PRINC: Character #\u00C5 cannot be represented in the character set CHARSET:ASCII 16:30:18 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host169-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:30:28 lhz: sounds about right. 16:30:47 Well, there you go. Might be a Latin Capital A with Diaerisis, if memory serves (; 16:31:25 So I have a stream somewhere in ascii-only, which is feeded this character? 16:32:16 Wait, it's the one with the ring - Å in entity-speak. lhz: looks like it. 16:32:45 Bronsa [~bronsa@host169-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:34:10 mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:34:46 rvirding [~chatzilla@112.2.5.118] has joined #lisp 16:39:46 p_l|home, are you going a google-ai entry? 16:39:50 going/doing 16:40:58 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:11 tcr: Around? 16:42:50 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host169-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:43:10 92AABBSK1 [~bronsa@host169-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:43:38 -!- 92AABBSK1 [~bronsa@host169-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:43:58 Bronsa [~bronsa@host169-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:45:13 Guthur: yes, but I had no time so far :/ 16:45:39 p_l|home, I'm just starting mine 16:46:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-249.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:47:09 in CL I hope? :) 16:47:10 p_l|home, just refactoring the CL startup pack 16:47:24 p_l|home, of course 16:47:31 Just going to the shop bnb 16:49:37 ah.. adding :external-format charset:utf-8 to with-open-file did it :) thanks.. 16:50:14 mstevens__ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:51:26 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@119.192.12.119] has joined #lisp 16:51:40 zvrba [~zvrba@anakin.ifi.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:51:47 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@119.192.12.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:10 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:53:41 p_l|home_ [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:54:00 -!- johanbev_ is now known as johanbev 16:54:19 -!- p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:54:30 -!- p_l|home_ is now known as p_l|home 16:56:41 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:56:43 Fade: right now I was considering Hunchentoot+defservice for my application... but I wonder if I could merge UCW into it :) 16:57:21 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 16:57:56 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 16:57:58 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:59:47 -!- ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:03:02 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:03:05 ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:22 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:54 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@112.2.5.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:06:15 Joreji_ [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:07:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:09:14 -!- atomx [~user@92.81.118.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:38 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:16:47 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:28 beach: glad it works for you. 17:23:18 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A420A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:04 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:55 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:27:38 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 17:27:48 davazp [~user@83.54.165.216] has joined #lisp 17:31:21 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:55 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:32:37 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:35:46 mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:36:21 -!- mstevens__ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:36:21 what are the fundamental object types defined by the language specification? i know one type is "symbol" - what are the other possibilities? 17:36:36 -!- gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 17:36:51 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:32 functions? 17:37:43 classes? 17:39:12 mstevens__ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:39:52 yates: wouldn't the place to look for what the spec says be the spec? There might even be a whole chapter on it... 17:40:27 do you mean the hyperspec? 17:41:12 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/04_a.htm 17:41:16 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:23 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:41:36 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:14 splittist: do you mean the hyperspec? 17:42:52 mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:43:27 Yes, the hyperspec is the spec (well, very nearly the spec). 17:43:48 yates: yes. If the hyperspec seems too speccy, look at the CLtL2 equivalent. 17:44:03 Note that CLtL2 is not normative. 17:45:11 ok 17:45:35 -!- mstevens__ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:45:58 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:51 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:47:00 any recommendations for a javascript / web 2.0 book or other learning resource? 17:47:02 what, at the highest level of abstraction, does a cons cell pointer point to? 17:47:06 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:47:16 or what set of things? 17:47:22 objects? 17:47:23 types? 17:47:28 functions? 17:47:29 variables? 17:47:33 symbols? 17:48:22 mstevens_ [~mstevens@81.2.103.23] has joined #lisp 17:48:22 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@81.2.103.23] has quit [Changing host] 17:48:22 mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:49:10 yates: you're not making much sense. cons cell is an object that refers to two other objects. level of abstraction doesn't really change that. a cons cell _is_ an abstraction -- a very simple one, though 17:49:22 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:49:25 nikodemus: Crockford's JS the Good Bits is worth reading. 17:49:33 (and short) 17:49:38 s/other// (it can point to it self too, of course) 17:49:41 splittist: thanks 17:51:54 nikodemus: section 4.1 of the clhs starts out with "A type is a (possibly infinite) set of objects.". And yet an object is never really defined, except in the glossary as a "lisp datum", which is so abstract and general as to be meaningless. 17:52:02 and you say *I'm* not making much sense?! 17:52:07 yates: I suggest you just start doing things with lisp. When the results don't match your expectations, adjust your expectations. At some stage you will want to really understand /why/ your expecations needed adjusting, but I suggest you are trying to build on but a grain of sand. 17:52:08 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:52:16 no. 17:52:20 i refuse 17:52:28 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 17:52:35 i want the people who have written this language to define things 17:52:46 yates: sucks to be you 17:52:47 They're not here. 17:52:54 i should rather say, i've tried that and it's not working. 17:53:07 jmbr [~jmbr@vpn173.vpn.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 17:53:46 hello everyone. i thought i would mention a new google group mailing list called Worcester Lispers, (for the Worcester in New England USA, not England. 17:53:49 http://groups.google.com/group/worcester-lispers 17:53:51 what grain of sand is that, splittist? 17:53:55 yates: are you trying to learn common lisp? 17:54:09 to demand that the language define its basic concepts? 17:54:54 i thought an object was anything that could be the value of a variable... the things that are arguments to generic functions 17:55:04 while the ansi spec/clhs is very good in many many ways, there are some surprisingly fundamental things that are underdefined from a formal perspective 17:55:12 yates: do you ever use arithmetic? Can you give me a generally accepted definition of /it's/ basic concepts? 17:55:13 nikodemus: yes 17:55:23 yes i can 17:55:28 define set 17:55:30 operation 17:55:30 group 17:55:32 ring 17:55:32 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:55:33 field 17:55:47 zero, number, successor 17:55:52 yates: multiple words per line, please. commas are free :) 17:56:04 if i recall my Lord Russell 17:56:04 nikodemus: my style 17:56:15 yates: our channel :) 17:56:34 nikodemus: are we really having this conversation? 17:57:13 re. weak definitions of some fundamentals. if you can't live with that, you're out of luck. but if you're really trying to learn cl, the hyperspec is not a good place to start. seibel's Practical Common Lisp is excellent, and above all teaches a modern idiomatic style 17:58:23 as for object... an object is everything that can become a variable in CL. There's no separate spec for variable and object. Just keep that in mind, you don't need to know the definition of number to do arithmetics, do you? 17:58:48 yates: and how did you learn arithmetic? (And did reading the Principia really alter how you use 2 + 2?) 17:58:58 *splittist* is slower than p_l|home 17:59:43 yates: what conversation? 18:00:16 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:01:32 nikodemus: what is so hard about getting them defined? 18:01:45 just curious 18:02:03 if i were willing, i could reverse engineer them given machine code. but that's ludicrous. 18:02:39 yates: the exact definition depends on implementation 18:02:59 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:59 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:02:59 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 18:03:01 yates: nothing. but the standardization committee favored codifying existing practice and descriptive text over a more formal approach. 18:03:02 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:03:09 as long as the semantics are kept to spec, the implementation can do whatever the fuck it wants 18:03:18 yates: the question is rather what's the use of defining them. 18:03:41 what's the use of using terms that are ill-defined? 18:03:49 practically speaking, however, the ansi standard is not up for revision in the foreseeable future, so specifying them formally would be a private endevour 18:03:51 why not make up stuff as we go along? 18:04:17 yates: The spec wasn't made for formalism nazis. 18:04:36 yates: right, so, how would improving the definitions help, practically? What would it give us? 18:05:03 Practically, what would the effect be? A specification is made to respond to a need 18:05:36 but objects aren't ill defined in any meaningful sense. there _are_ nooks and crannies in the spec that have really ill-defined stuff in them. "what are objects" is not one of them 18:05:46 the practical effect of any definition is to allow precise communication 18:06:26 urandom__ [~user@p548A4502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:52 precise/efficient 18:07:12 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Client Quit] 18:07:35 object: "any lisp datum". Okay...., welllll, what's a DATUM?!!! 18:07:52 yates: as shown by you, precise doesn't not mean efficient. And vice-versa 18:07:56 in common lisp, and object is an entity with a unique and immutable identity. the only exception to this are numbers and characters, for whom identity is more nebulous: they are the only things the an implementation is allowed to copy silently 18:07:57 datum: "any red floohatymus" 18:08:15 for the purpose of being efficient, HyperSpec avoids the trap of defining *everything* 18:08:35 and yet there are a number of reasonably independently developed implementations of Common Lisp that interoperate. How can that be? 18:08:51 I think the formal definition of datum was given in the original LISP document, wasn't it? 18:09:11 p_l|home: where was/is that document? 18:09:18 but seriously: for learning purposes clhs is _bad_. you cannot read it and understand what is important and what is a distraction 18:09:27 minion: tell yates about pcl-book 18:09:27 yates: please see pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:09:37 yates: Scourge MIT archives, somewhere the paper copy should be lying around 18:10:20 (no, I never really cared to find an electronic one) 18:10:28 ok, th 18:10:29 thx 18:11:19 yates: you could also ask your implementation what it thinks of its type graph. http://paste.lisp.org/display/115372 18:11:37 for the purposes of learning, use the PCL and Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation (which might havean updated version of "what is a variable" there, I guess...) 18:11:52 splittist: if you're asking me, the reason is that these meanings are understood but not explicitly defined 18:12:26 yeah, these "gentle/pcl" suggestions are not working for me 18:12:29 yates: if you want all the types, you can loop over the packages to gather them all. 18:12:43 isn't a package an extension to the language? 18:12:43 yates: that's because you seem to be reluctant to learn... 18:12:48 yates: the hyperspec didn't define such stuff exactly, because it wasn't trying to cover formalism of programming... 18:12:55 pjb: i disagree. 18:13:07 in fact, i'm giving precise questions: you are the ones that can't answer them 18:13:13 yates: the things you look for are pure maths of computing, not learning how to program, IMHO 18:13:19 i can give more examples. 18:13:31 yates: they are better answered in those books, that's why we don't want to copy these books here. 18:13:41 Don't give more examples, get out there and hack on something. 18:13:43 We're not a book copy and paste service. 18:13:57 (Where does the spec define 'troll', anyway?) 18:14:38 yates: are you trying to learn cl out of curiosity, or do you need to learn it for a reason? 18:15:12 if the first, you might feel more at home with scheme 18:15:32 nikodemus: only out of my own interest and potential applications to web building 18:15:43 no class 18:16:30 Jabberwock [~Jens@f050072045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:16:55 i find that both gentle and pcl simply begin to use these terms without defining them 18:17:00 ... and if you really like formalisms so much, maybe look at Haskell? Cause I really doubt that *any* language spec actually ever includes such thing 18:17:19 when i then attempt to go find out what they mean, i run into the mess i've gotten here. 18:17:30 circular/non-existant definitions 18:17:55 p_l|home: that's not at all true 18:18:02 C defines what types are available 18:18:04 e.g. 18:18:10 at least in the base language 18:18:25 yates: CL defines those as well - at least the ones that are *required*, as the implementation might give more 18:18:52 it doesn't have to define *exact specifics* as long as those types keep the semantics required in HyperSpec 18:19:07 yates: then start by readling the glossary of CLHS! 18:19:18 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19:20 yates: "in common lisp, and object is an entity with a unique and immutable identity". numbers, characters, vectors, cons cells, hash-tables, classes, instances of classes, etc are all objects. 18:19:32 But they again, perhaps you will have to do a topological sort on the entries to read them in the right order... 18:19:54 pjb: not a bad idea! 18:20:23 symbols and functions are objects as well -- there is nothing in a common lisp program that _isn't_ an object 18:20:26 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:22:44 semantically, isn't "type" a higher-level construct than "object"? 18:23:00 yates: yes 18:23:01 "type n. 1. a set of objects, ..." 18:23:20 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:23:56 methinks perhaps this is where my confusion begins. 18:24:10 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:12 objects have identity, which is tested by EQ. the only things the system is allowed to make copies of implicitly are characters and numbers -- (let ((x (mystery))) (eq x x)) is undefined if MYSTERY returns a number or a character, but T for all others. (eq (mystery) (list t)) is always NIL, because (LIST T) must allocate a fresh list which cannot be EQ to whatever MYSTERY returns 18:24:29 usually i think of the term "type" as meaning "data type", and therefore "objects" have "type" 18:24:37 here, "types" have "objects"! 18:24:52 well, they both participate in the same relationship :) 18:25:07 so putting either "above" the other is a bit problematic 18:25:50 yah 18:27:25 More fun: It's an M:M relationship. 18:27:30 -!- davazp [~user@83.54.165.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:39 the type latttice goes from type NIL to type T: no objects belong to type NIL, and every object belongs to type T 18:27:43 (Well, M:N, but...) 18:28:39 nikodemus: then what is above them both? what is the father of the family? 18:28:54 T 18:29:16 T is the supertype of all types, and NIL is the subtype of all types 18:29:33 you speak strangely... 18:29:39 note, however, that types aren't objects. a type is a purely formal construction. a common lisp program may have plenty of type _specifiers_ around -- which are objects. but a type specifier is not the type it represents 18:30:22 ok, speaking set-wise 18:30:39 *nyef* glances at SB-KERNEL:SPECIFIER-TYPE. 18:31:06 nyef: the ctype object is really just another type specifier 18:31:20 I suppose it is, at that. 18:31:22 (subtypep nil (random-type-specifier)) => T, T. (subtypep (random-type-specifier) t) => T, T 18:32:32 I can't reasonably expect emacs READ to deal with a #!+whatever conditional, can I? 18:33:35 Actually, what am I thinking? Even if this hack can't deal with them, it'll still be useful. 18:34:02 me at about age 6: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs112.snc3/15941_1180551762710_1495673608_30462243_2512473_n.jpg 18:34:49 *yates* ducks... 18:35:56 _3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:02 i think i'm overloaded for one afternoon - thanks for the thought provokes and put-up-withs, people 18:36:05 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslfd067.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:37:24 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:41:25 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 18:41:45 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #lisp 18:41:57 paredit 22 is released: 18:42:02 -!- benny [~benny@i577A762A.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:42:45 Riastradh: yay 18:44:00 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:44:02 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:12 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:40 benny [~benny@i577A712E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:42 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 18:44:44 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:01 weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:42 time to boot emacs, it seems :) 18:47:37 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:47:43 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:49:08 Riastradh: i forgot, but i have an old feature suggestion (or a bugreport, depending on how you take it) 18:49:38 Oh? 18:51:11 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens_] 18:51:15 if you have foo.lisp open, and insert an unbalanced paren in there, paredit remains active. OK. if you open a file with an unbalanced paren in it paredit doesn't activate at all, and doesn't complain. it would appear to me that it should either compain, or activate itself anyways for consistency's sake. (or possibly enter a dormant mode of some sort, reactivating after the parens have been fixed) 18:51:52 You can type `C-u M-x paredit-mode RET' to force it to activate. 18:52:10 Wait, it doesn't complain? 18:52:14 It tries to complain. 18:52:55 hm, i see. it does give a message 18:53:09 yates: updated version: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115372#1 ; notice that the results are implementation dependant, since some standard types may be implemented differently. 18:53:33 but this is actually the first time i've noticed that -- any cursor movement clears the message, so it's really easy to miss 18:54:43 Riastradh: can we override the old paredit.el ? 18:55:07 the message i get is: File mode specification error: (error "Unmatched bracket or quote") 18:55:15 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 18:55:46 Hmm, OK. Paredit just uses `warn' -- maybe there's some way to configure `warn' to be flashier, or maybe paredit should be flashier itself, such as by popping up a temporary buffer that shows the warning. 18:55:53 pjb, sorry, what do you mean by override? 18:56:13 Nothing I was confused by the version numbers that are close to those of emacs. 18:56:29 Riastradh: y-or-n-p would work for me :) 18:57:19 Oops, actually, it doesn't use `warn'; instead it's basically as if you ran `check-parens' yourself. 18:58:52 I'm not sure it's generally kosher to call `y-or-n-p' in the routine that turns on a mode, but I could make a hook that you can instrument in your .emacs to call it. 19:00:25 or if i can set a flag that tells paredit to turn on even if parens are bad 19:00:36 either would be great 19:01:28 particularly my *slime-scratch* tends to accumulate all sorts of random crap since i keep it persistent 19:01:45 Well, you can always pass a prefix argument to `paredit-mode'. 19:07:07 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host169-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:07:09 lisppaste? 19:07:19 Well, anyway: 19:07:25 chandler, lisppaste is pining. 19:07:35 lisppaste no longer announces here, but you can always ask minion about the paste. 19:07:43 Oh. 19:07:43 (Some maniacs were spamming with it.) 19:07:44 Why not? 19:07:48 I see. 19:07:56 minion: paste 115373? 19:07:57 Paste number 115373: "paredit-override-check-parens-function" by Riastradh in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/115373 19:08:13 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442446.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:08:43 nikodemus, try loading that, and evaluating (setq paredit-override-check-parens-function 'paredit-override-check-parens-interactively). 19:08:43 bayesian filter for lisppaste? 19:08:53 *nikodemus* tries 19:09:58 excellent 19:10:12 notification & ability to continue is golden 19:10:31 I'm not sure of the right way to format elisp conditions, so the query is kinda hokey. 19:14:26 Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to see in paredit. It's better to email me, though, than to wait for my next random visit to #lisp...! 19:15:31 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:16:30 I will bring it up the next time we are both at a Boston lisp meeting 19:17:55 Heh. 19:18:07 Maybe some time next year. I'm on the wrong coast right now. 19:19:08 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:20:26 ILC, then! 19:21:00 -!- dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:21:09 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 19:21:23 -!- Jabberwock is now known as Jabberwockey 19:21:27 That would require me to be in Nevada, a state of affairs on which I'm not too keen. 19:22:20 Xach: looks like someone already unsubscribed from worc lispers :( 19:23:16 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:24:30 Riastradh: but you would get to sing "Viva Las Vegas" on the plane ride! 19:24:30 dto: fooey 19:24:31 :P 19:25:34 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:25:38 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:30 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:07 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-27-7.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:36:04 Krystof [~csr21@nat76.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:42:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-27-7.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:46:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-27-7.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:47:46 serichsen [~user@f048036220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:27 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 19:48:37 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:50:01 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 19:52:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-27-7.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:52:40 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:55:11 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:23 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 19:59:11 Good evening! 19:59:40 it is 4am in here in China. 20:00:00 seelenquell [~kvirc@pD9E435AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:10 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:00:38 It is 4pm here on the US east coast. 20:01:15 Sikander [~user@83.86.244.159] has joined #lisp 20:04:02 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@72-254-62-225.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:09 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@72-254-62-225.client.stsn.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:04:09 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 20:05:45 phrixos [~clarkema@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has joined #lisp 20:06:11 -!- seelenquell [~kvirc@pD9E435AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net] 20:06:37 afternoon all 20:07:16 Xach: I've just nuked my quicklisp preview installation and pulled down the beta, and now when I start sbcl I get "ASDF could not load sb-posix because Not an absolute pathname #P"~/.clc/systems/"." 20:07:31 sbcl is SBCL 1.0.40.0.debian 20:07:55 phrixos: hmm 20:08:20 if i comment out the quicklisp code in my .sbclrc, all is as normal 20:08:28 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:09:56 phrixos: ~/.clc/systems/ is bogus -- sbcl does not currently expand ~ in pathnames 20:11:24 no comment on why it didn't complain about it before, but doesn't make it any less bogus :) 20:11:28 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@72-254-62-225.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:28 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@72-254-62-225.client.stsn.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:11:28 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 20:12:27 phrixos: do you push that onto *central-registry* yourself, or does it come from common-lisp-controller? 20:13:09 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:59 nikodemus: I don't do anything; it happens when I (load "quicklisp/setup.lisp") 20:15:25 phrixos: if you do "sbcl --no-userinit --eval '(require :asdf)' --eval '(print asdf:*central-registry*)'--eval '(quit)', is it in the list? 20:15:44 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:16:16 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Client Quit] 20:17:34 kwmiebach1 [~ad@xdsl-87-79-53-82.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:39 no, that list is nil 20:17:47 -!- kwmiebach [~ad@xdsl-87-78-38-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:18:25 details at http://paste.lisp.org/display/115375 20:18:38 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:18:58 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:19:31 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 20:20:19 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:25 -!- splittist [~John@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: I'll catch it in the logs] 20:22:30 pjb: Hi, I'm still interested in that code you told me about yesterday 20:22:34 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:25:12 phrixos: do you have ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf, ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/, /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf, or /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/ ? 20:27:06 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:27:15 hmm, interesting 20:27:40 the offending entry seems to be in /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/02-common-lisp-controller-userdir.conf 20:27:48 which reads (:directory #p"~/.clc/systems/") 20:28:04 i wonder what's changed to mean that that's now pulled in, and it wasn't before 20:34:36 phrixos: quicklisp comes with its own asdf 20:34:40 timack [~tim@hlfx51-2b-139.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 20:34:58 Blkt [~user@93-33-130-131.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:35:18 phrixos: so if the debian sbcl has had alterations made to the way it looks up stuff, re-loading asdf like ql does will probably cause it to do something differently 20:35:46 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 20:35:46 segyr [~segyr@213.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 20:35:50 right 20:35:56 i guess i'll just remove that file in etc 20:36:01 basically, my recommendation is to wipe ~/.config/common-lisp of anything that doesn't sound sensible to you, then build your own sbcl from sources and just use quicklisp for everything (: 20:36:11 it seems odd that the debian sbcl package depends on something that, if used, breaks it 20:36:23 haha, yeah 20:36:38 that's the best definition of clc I've heard <-; 20:38:26 -!- Krystof [~csr21@nat76.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:29 clc is trouble. well meaning trouble, and trouble that doesn't seem to bother some people at all -- but trouble 20:39:03 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:40:02 phrixos: sorry about that 20:40:10 nikodemus: #lisp is turning noir (-: 20:40:16 no worries, it seems to be more of a debian thing 20:40:29 other than that, quicklisp is making me very happy indeed :) 20:40:45 I knew the dame was trouble the moment she started re-compiling my lisp packages 20:40:56 heh 20:41:39 thanks nikodemus 20:41:47 back up and running now 20:41:49 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:42:11 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:15 clc is a solution to a problem i've never had, and the cause of many a problem for which "don't use clc" was the solution. 20:49:18 The easy solution, at least. 20:49:50 Soulman [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:30 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.120] has joined #lisp 20:52:26 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@178-25-72-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:31 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@178-25-72-86-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:00 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:46 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:02:48 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx51-2b-139.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-249.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:06:10 SCVirus [~B234651@S0106001345655973.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:26 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:06:37 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 21:07:34 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 21:07:46 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:07:54 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:08:11 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:49 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.241.147.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:49 -!- Kaes [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:03 Kaes [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:13:06 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:13:55 Bronsa [~bronsa@host169-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:16:27 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host169-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 21:16:59 francogrex [~user@109.130.98.154] has joined #lisp 21:17:31 -!- segyr [~segyr@213.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has left #lisp 21:17:46 minion: memo for slyrus: I don't think it's overly hard, just fiddly hooking up to the event loop across implementations 21:17:46 Remembered. I'll tell slyrus when he/she/it next speaks. 21:18:32 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-139-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:21:19 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:22:09 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:22:22 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:22:56 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-115-87-221-157.revip4.asianet.co.th] has left #lisp 21:25:55 Once I encountered a function/macro that lets one display the whole file content on the repl (either formatted or not) without explicitly reading a stream like read and read-line. I can't remember what it was (actually I can't find it back I think I probably have dreamt it)! anyone know of such a thing (it's standard) 21:26:19 -!- froydnj [~froydnj@cpe-173-89-193-139.indy.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:27:42 mmap ? 21:27:42 -!- wareya [~wareya@74.70.142.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:28:48 wareya [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:18 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:32:02 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:39 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:32:50 smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:21 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:33:36 -!- Sikander [~user@83.86.244.159] has left #lisp 21:36:31 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:36:43 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:35 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:12 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:41:52 TomJ [~tomj@89.241.147.59] has joined #lisp 21:42:05 Hum, I'm looking for the unicode table characters so I can include a nice raw text table in source code for better documentation. Googling has been unsuccessful. There were old variants of ASCII that had those, surely unicode has them too? I just don't know where to look. What "script" would that be in? 21:42:30 "table characters"? 21:43:01 You mean the old "IBMscii" box-drawing characters? 21:43:02 Well, you know. Like, I use - and | and + right now. But it's really ugly at the corners. 21:43:05 Yes. 21:43:24 ?? 21:43:54 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:44:00 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:06 -!- new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:45:26 nikodemus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115376 21:45:35 <_3b> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-drawing_characters ? 21:46:07 Hexstream: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-drawing_characters shows some of them (also http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/examples/UTF-8-demo.txt) those are utf-8 encoded 21:46:24 Hexstream: annotated the paste 21:46:28 oh I didn't have the time to see the first link was already posted :) 21:46:33 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-128-10.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:46:33 _3b: Thanks, exactly what I was looking for! 21:46:47 *nyef* would have found the codepoints in about another minute. 21:47:49 hm, maybe i should put char-apropos in sb-ext 21:48:01 Heh. Yeah! 21:49:28 nyef: Yeouch. I copy/pasted your annotation in the REPL and it somehow broke the connection: "Lisp connection closed unexpectedly: connection broken by remote peer" 21:49:46 These kinds of errors are always mysterious to me. 21:50:11 <_3b> you probably don't have slime set up to use utf8 21:50:35 Oh, I have a backtrace in *inferior-lisp* 21:51:43 <_3b> probably failed to encode a character as ascii, then failed to print the error for the same reason 21:51:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115376#2 21:52:15 _3b: How would I check what encoding my slime uses? 21:52:44 <_3b> cmm-: slime-net-coding-system RET 21:52:57 <_3b> s/cmm-:/M-:/ 21:53:29 *_3b* should figure out how to turn that confusing nick completion off at some point 21:53:56 <_3b> (or else figure out how to use it intentionally, since it seems smarter than the tab-based nick completion) 21:54:34 <_3b> from the backtrace it looks like you use latin1 though 21:54:43 Yes, that's what I was about to say. 21:54:57 I have the bad habit of assuming everything is UTF-8 by default everywhere. 21:55:18 <_3b> (set-language-environment "UTF-8") (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) in .emacs 21:55:33 Meh. All the world's a VAX, and all the displays VT-220s. 21:55:57 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050072045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:55:59 _3b: Thanks. 21:56:36 *_3b* isn't sure if the first part is required or not, or even what it does 21:57:56 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 21:58:50 Cool, it works perfectly now. 21:58:54 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:29 <_3b> probably still not quite 'perfect' but good enough for most uses :) 21:59:52 *_3b* hasn't bothered to check whether emacs23 handles all of unicode or not yet 22:00:28 _3b: i've been cargo-culting those two lines of slime config since sbcl got unicode, and i also don't know what the first line does :) 22:00:49 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu211.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:02:40 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:02:40 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:04:52 I have a sudden urge to make a raw-text table generator DSL! (Yes, I know there are probably thousands of those around and yes, I still want to make my own). I'll use pattern-matching again to make something ridiculously powerful ;P 22:05:10 Abezethibou [~user@217.131.86.224] has joined #lisp 22:09:29 Abezethi` [~user@217.131.86.224] has joined #lisp 22:09:29 -!- Abezethibou [~user@217.131.86.224] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:09:34 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-5-160.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:18:23 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 22:19:17 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.98.154] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:59 woo 22:20:54 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu211.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:21:16 anyone know anything about colour theory? 22:21:50 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-52-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:21:51 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-52-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:22:24 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 22:22:28 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-52-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:22:30 phrixos: just that Wikipedia has a bunch of stuff on it. unless it's easy I probably don't know it 22:22:33 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-52-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:31 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:24 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:25:20 -!- Abezethi` [~user@217.131.86.224] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:36 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:26:05 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:26:34 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:50 -!- pjb` is now known as ogamita 22:27:54 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 22:28:08 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:25 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:28:43 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:30:38 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:53 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.153] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:33:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:35:29 trying out quicklisp, inferior-lisp-program "/usr/local/bin/ccl64", slime as prescribed, it appears to connect; "Connecting to Swank on port 49728.. [2 times], Connected. May the source be with you!" ... but no repl buffer ... wdyt 22:36:14 make sure to load ze contrib 22:36:36 ze? 22:36:43 the 22:37:16 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:37:29 Indeed. The SLIME-REPL is not loaded by default. 22:37:50 md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 22:38:43 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:39:15 doing: (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-tramp slime-asdf)) fixed it 22:39:44 *Xach* needs to improve slime integration 22:39:59 guess i was too obedient ... i commented out all my many lines of slime config and added only the two lines in the instructions 22:40:30 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:41:05 sorry about that 22:43:19 xach np! thanks for what appears to be an awesome gift 22:44:44 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:45:53 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-38-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:28 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 22:51:31 quicklisp's dependency file lacks clbuild's amusing trailing space on every line :) 22:51:58 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-52-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:51:59 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-52-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:59 open a github issue and i'll fix it! 22:59:34 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 22:59:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:03:31 "Bug 17: Dependency file is insufficiently amusing." 23:03:32 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-24-147-116-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:44 davazp [~user@83.55.183.181] has joined #lisp 23:05:01 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu211.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:07:59 -!- sepp2k [~sexy@p548CFA0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: sepp2k] 23:16:39 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 23:18:48 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:47 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 23:23:56 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-24-147-116-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:26:14 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 23:29:57 serichse` [~user@f048195087.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:30:06 there is only 20 lispers in the whole google-ai challenge 23:30:33 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 23:30:43 p_l|home, what is your entry name? 23:31:38 not yet there, I didn't submit a plain copy of the default bot :) 23:31:48 hi, is it possible to query a symbol about whether it is case sensitive or not? Like (something 'foo) => NIL, (something '|Foo|) => T 23:31:50 and I still got this PHP code to fix... 23:32:28 ignotus: you could try getting symbol name as a string then check it for lowercase characters 23:33:01 -!- serichsen [~user@f048036220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:33:08 p_l|home: that sounds very hackish:) 23:33:19 All symbols are case-sensitive. 23:33:41 nyef: yeah, I mean when the programmer gave the case like |foo| 23:33:42 (Or, more accurately, FIND-SYMBOL and INTERN are case-sensitive.) 23:33:57 But what should (something '|FOO|) return? 23:34:16 T, for me:) 23:34:23 ignotus: if the programmer gave it a case like |foo|, then 'foo is a different name. 23:34:34 -!- serichse` is now known as serichsen 23:34:49 But (eq '|FOO| 'foo) => T. 23:35:12 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.183.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:20 I see, so there is no way to know whether a symbol was written with |..|? 23:35:38 only from the string representation 23:35:47 Right. 23:35:50 argh 23:36:06 You're looking for a property of the serialized input in the de-serialized object. 23:36:13 nyef: I see thanks 23:36:33 And it's a property that can only be guessed at based on print-read consistency, and that ends up being a heuristic approach. 23:36:39 minion: Advice on heuristic? 23:36:39 #11953: Of course, this is a heuristic, which is a fancy way of saying that it doesn't work. 23:37:08 I use yaclml to generate some xml and I wanted to create a tag like , but I can't do that then, because everything is string-downcased 23:37:14 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:37:19 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:25 minion: Advice on veeblefitzer? 23:37:26 #11948: Perhaps your veeblefitzer is clogged. 23:38:04 ignotus: I'd use :invert and fix yaclml to use the same logic. 23:38:23 pkhuong_: what is :invert? 23:38:31 It's a READTABLE-CASE. 23:38:35 ah 23:38:52 I'd use something other than yaclml. 23:38:56 pkhuong_: thanks, I may do that 23:39:07 But then, I do almost no XML stuff in lisp. 23:39:12 yaclml is cool:) 23:39:23 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 23:39:37 althought this is an unexpected problem for me:) 23:40:29 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:32 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-24-147-116-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:22 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:42:56 -!- V-ille [~ville@80-186-250-210.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:44:00 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-52-39.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:46:31 why, why, why in the world did I think that updating slime would be a good idea? 23:46:49 what's the usual extension for cl source code files? 23:46:56 .lisp 23:47:44 jsnell: No idea. My current policy is to update everything in my environment at the same time, by copying the entire environment to a new directory and updating the bits in there. 23:47:46 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-130-131.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:48:29 jsnell: That said, did you see my voplife thing earlier in #sbcl? 23:49:12 yes. it was neat, especially since I never before had understood exactly what the lifetime options meant 23:49:58 Mmm. Now if I can just get /editing/ to work. >:-) 23:51:01 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:54:34 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:54:48 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:47 pjb: i get a "/tmp/cl-types.ps not found" or somesuch from gs 23:57:42 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]