00:00:12 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-133-72-37.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 00:00:32 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:22 -!- kingless [~kingless@adsl-242-215-95.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 00:02:12 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 00:04:02 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:37 gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:53 -!- Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-29-123.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:05:54 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:57 gonzojive [~red@171.66.89.213] has joined #lisp 00:08:26 gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:35 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:10:44 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:46 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-067.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:36 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.217.177.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:52 -!- sdsds is now known as infinityward 00:20:35 -!- infinityward is now known as sdsds 00:25:24 -!- srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:05 -!- kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: kjbrock] 00:32:08 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.2.85] has joined #lisp 00:32:54 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:24 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 00:40:38 -!- jso [~user@ip68-111-169-131.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:40:50 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-162-86.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:27 i'm playing with slime/allegro lisp and my defun get's compiled just fine (with C-c C-c), but it mentions i had one warning.. how can i check what that warning was? 00:43:14 gets* 00:43:52 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-162-86.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:40 M-p and M-n 00:44:46 -!- franki^ [~frankie@unaffiliated/franki] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:48 franki^ [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:05 Hexstream: I laughed at the all-star library 00:50:23 schmrkc: Wow. I thought it was pretty bad but anyway ;) 00:50:56 Ur5us [~Ur5us@121.98.212.19] has joined #lisp 00:51:18 But really, it will be the first Actually Documented And Usable library I'll ever have released. So it's exciting. 00:53:10 what does it do? 00:54:16 It's called LOOPless. It does exactly what it sounds like: it lets you use LOOP less or go completely LOOPless if you're so inclined. 00:54:42 Release is minutes away. I'm just writing a few more examples... 00:55:02 Hexstream: You wrote a library for DO and friends? :) 00:55:34 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:44 Hum. Well, with LOOPless you shouldn't really have to use LOOP or DO ever again, I think. 00:56:25 And it will be much less painful than trying to do away with LOOP but only rely on Common Lisp without LOOP. I tried that and it wasn't super nice, hence this library. 00:56:58 o.O 00:57:07 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:57:10 so.. 00:57:14 you're writing ITERATE? :) 00:57:43 any root on common-lisp.net around? or nikodemus? 00:58:33 schmrkc: No, that's precisely what I'm NOT writing. ITERATE is a bit better in my opinion, but in the end it's just more of the same concept. The concept being: "one big monolithic all-encompassing looping construct". 00:59:10 LOOPless does completely away with the concept of a LOOP-like construct. 00:59:10 Hexstream: how do you write the equivalent of (loop repeat n do (foo))? 00:59:25 (dotimes* (n) (foo)) 00:59:48 why is it preferable? 01:00:12 Contrived simplistic example = unimpressing result. 01:00:16 whats wrong with the normal dotimes? 01:01:00 That you have to name the variable even if you won't use it?... If at least it was possible to "name" it nil to signify ignore... 01:01:15 Anyway, that's one of the least interesting additions of LOOPless. 01:01:39 Hexstream: ok. so say you want one var going upfrom 15 and one going down from 15, one iterating over some list, and one grabbing keys out of a hash table... and doing stfuff with all that, etc.. how you do that in your all-star library? 01:01:42 Hexstream: can you give a more impressive example? 01:01:44 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:01:48 contrived example, of course 01:02:04 I'll lisppaste all the examples I have so far. 01:02:12 better idea :) 01:03:33 Hexstream: wrt my loop, now suppose it's (loop repeat n for x in list do (foo x)) 01:04:07 *Fare* thanks fe[nl]ix 01:04:44 *Fare* reboots to recover from stale NFS filehandles. Sigh. Why are we still using NFS in 2010? 01:05:01 legacy support :> 01:05:30 Fare: because somewhere on the campus there's a SunOS 4.x fileserver that contains critical data for some guy that was high on the chain 01:05:34 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.89.213] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 01:05:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 01:05:57 Sorry, was wrestling with lisppaste. Channel supports seems broken or something. http://paste.lisp.org/display/115318 01:06:15 (otoh, NFSv3 can be at the same time better and worse than SMB/CIFS... I can never say which. NFSv4 rocks, however.) 01:06:27 still, MIT got it right... AFS :3 01:06:51 haha. firewall here at work blocks paste.lisp.org 01:06:59 well, a power outage on the server or router causes my linux client to be out without recourse. I blame Linux. 01:07:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115318 01:07:05 eep 01:07:11 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:07:29 Rating : Dangerous. Threat: Verified fraudulent page or threat source. 01:07:36 thank you, trend micro 01:07:45 I'm particularly proud of FOR* ;P 01:08:28 -!- antivigilante__ [~antivigil@174-26-94-63.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:08:43 I found a way to use one of the more worthwhile features of LOOP in conjunction with any looping construct whatsoever. 01:09:06 worthwhile and unique* 01:09:29 ugh 01:11:00 Hexstream: some of the examples and operators I can appreciate.. for* is not one of them.. also, there is an example that doesn't make use of your library at all? 01:11:59 Yeah, LOOPless is about not using LOOP where you might be tempted to use it (sort of). Some of LOOP's use-cases are already correctly handled by the standard. 01:12:09 I guess I could say something to this effect explicitly... 01:12:53 Hexstream: have you looked at SERIES? 01:12:58 *schmrkc* hugs LOOP 01:13:16 adeht: No, not yet... 01:13:52 schmrkc: This library is not for LOOP lovers, that's for sure. It's for people who would like to use LOOP less if only they were presented with a viable alternative. 01:14:13 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:14:13 Hexstream: Ya man. good work anyway :) 01:15:28 As for FOR*, it's true that it's not conventional and may look a bit weird at first. But for what I wanted to do, which is using LOOP's FOR construct with any looping construct, I think this must be close to the best possible syntax and implementation. 01:16:11 In the past, I frequently converted a looping construct to use LOOP just because I wanted a damn variable i incrementing at each pass. 01:17:38 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316055951]] 01:18:15 When I ditched LOOP, I first tried doing let ((i 0)) and then incrementing manually with INCF but in many scenarios I had to wrap the loop's body with PROG1 because I had to return a value (for accumulation), and then the INCF was far from the place the i was declared and so things weren't clear and there was the possibility of forgetting to write the incf... Messy shit. 01:18:42 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:54 svr [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 01:19:04 Hexstream: what about do? 01:19:30 I also experimented with something similar but with one nesting level to declare variables and then another to wrap the body of the loop, and then each time the scope of the inner body was exited I would have had an incrementation, but 2 nesting levels was unbearable. 01:19:42 Ralith: Well, what about it? 01:19:54 You mean as an alternative to LOOP? 01:19:57 yes 01:20:01 in the trivial example you give, anyway 01:20:08 Almost everyone hates DO... It's archaic, I don't know... 01:20:16 I like DO 01:20:18 I like do. 01:20:28 Well, you're not almost everyone, then. 01:20:34 who is "almost everyone?" 01:20:41 I really tried using and liking DO, at first. 01:20:47 so far it seems like "almost everyone" is "you" 01:20:53 *adeht* feels a new Lisp poll coming up 01:20:55 I couldn't shake the feeling it was weird and archaic. 01:21:06 most people say that about SEXPs. 01:21:13 ... 01:21:19 Let's have a poll. 01:21:22 :D 01:21:38 I'm pretty sure not a lot of people actively use DO *and* enjoy it. 01:22:02 do you use operators by their popularity? 01:22:04 Some things of DO I perceive as problems: 01:22:08 I don't use it often because I'm perfectly happy with loop, too, but I find it elegant when I do use it. 01:22:22 How you have to repeat yourself often for the bindings, you know, the obvious problem... 01:22:31 (not that I think loop's perfect, but it's convenient and has no flaws so glaring that it merits active avoidance) 01:22:42 And then unlike almost every looping construct in existence, it FINISHES when the test is TRUE. WTF. 01:23:11 Hexstream: I await FORMAT-less 01:23:12 :) 01:23:12 adeht: Stupid question, if I did then I'd just use LOOP and be done. 01:23:16 Hexstream: when the init-form and step-form are equal, I often choose another construct, e.g. loop 01:23:24 ^ 01:23:42 schmrkc: Yes, well, I've been dreaming of it for a while but didn't even start trying to find a better concept for it. 01:24:21 adeht: Well then, there's your answer. DO is not a viable alternative to LOOP if you then fall back on LOOP at the first occasion.. 01:24:50 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 01:25:53 Hexstream: first of all - DO _is_ a viable alternative, with help of other operators it can do everything LOOP does.. secondly, I'm not looking for an alternative to LOOP, just to use an operator that fits nicely to the case in point I have to deal with 01:26:33 LOOPless provides many such operators that fit nicely to the case in point you have to deal with ;P 01:26:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:27:03 So. I guess it's time for a release!! I wanted to provide more examples but that can wait... 01:27:48 Hexstream: for many cases I find LOOP more than adequate ;) 01:30:28 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.242] has joined #lisp 01:31:23 LOOP detractors and apologists alike, have a look at this! http://github.com/Hexstream/LOOPless My first documented and actually usable library!!! 01:32:08 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-219-167.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:34:30 I'm a bit conflicted about whether I should call it LOOPless or loopless on GitHub... Using mixed case is probably asking for trouble. 01:34:52 as long as the system file doesn't have mixed case in its name, no trouble 01:35:19 *Xach* has been unable to persuade pierre mai to change Deflate.asd's name 01:35:24 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: ta-ta] 01:36:22 I renamed the repository to lowercase. And no, I would never consider having the system file with mixed case ;P 01:36:25 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-53-173.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 01:37:28 Hexstream: why do you flet outside of defmacros? 01:37:50 Why not?... 01:39:47 I believe it affects top-levelness 01:40:16 flet properly propagates top-levelness. 01:40:31 Like labels, progn, macrolet, and maybe other constructs. 01:41:32 isn't it why you used eval-when for once-only? 01:41:35 adeht: clhs 3.2.3.1 01:41:47 No. 01:41:47 Hexstream: 3.2.3.1 does not mention flet, labels 01:42:51 adeht: Hum. Gosh. Well, I read that a long time ago. I was sure... But it never cause any problems as far as I can tell... hum. 01:43:26 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:27 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:43:53 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:44:32 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:51 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 01:46:00 ONCE-ONLY didn't actually have to be in the EVAL-WHEN in this case. But WITH-UNIQUE-NAMES needs it because it's used by other macros in the same file. 01:46:36 Hexstream: if you move the flet inside the defmacro, you should be able to use it without eval-when 01:47:53 adeht: Nice. I have to try that. I thought that you had to do this for macros that you use inside of other macros in the same file. But now that you mention it, I seem to remember that, indeed, macro definitions must be available to other macros in the same file... 01:51:37 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-26-232.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:53:06 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-7-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:34 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:12 adeht: You were right. What do you want as a name in the commit? 01:55:42 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #lisp 01:56:21 Hexstream: adeht will do ;) 01:56:25 ok. 01:59:31 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-58-28-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:06 Ah, fucking shit. The shell punishes me every time I try to use a "!". That's fucking annoying. 02:01:17 Now there's a nice goddamn backslash in my commit message. 02:01:36 Time for a really careful git reset... 02:02:08 ? 02:02:21 if you didn't push you can amend 02:02:59 Oh, I never tried that feature. I just did git reset --soft 02:03:13 I mean, git reset --soft HEAD^ 02:03:16 it's trivial using git gui 02:04:42 I prefer the command line, thank you very much ;P 02:05:01 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:29 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:05:29 -!- wareya_ [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:05:29 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:06:14 wareya [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:08:58 adeht: Hehe, I'm slow. It's pushed now: http://github.com/Hexstream/loopless/commit/5f401cb16b900559878c2b6fafc47ff82305285b 02:09:39 I somewhat mutilated those boring definitions in the process, but that's of no concern. 02:09:50 So, time to go to bed. Cya. 02:10:07 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:10:08 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:10:16 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-140-24.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:11:48 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:15:32 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:24:47 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-16-74.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:25:59 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:25 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:33 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925257556.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:30:35 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:15 echo-area 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07:33:07 -!- buncito [~user@114.79.55.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:33:15 hello ost, mvilleneuve, splittist 07:33:27 -!- spiaggia` is now known as spiaggia 07:33:45 [and good morning everyone] 07:35:09 spiaggia: I see you started implementing SICL's GC, do you know where I could find information about how that kind of GC works? (for someone who knows close to nothing about GCs) 07:36:18 -!- splittist [~John@121-115.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:37:57 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 07:38:22 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:03 splittist [~John@121-115.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:39:08 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-62-144.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:39:13 mvilleneuve: If you know nothing about GCs, I recommend you start by reading the book by Lins and Jones. 07:39:35 morning spiaggia (and mvilleneuve, and everyone) 07:39:43 mvilleneuve: Another good document is the GC survey by Paul Wilson. 07:40:18 *splittist* wonders why Swisscom interrupts his net connection at ca. 9h30 every day 07:40:31 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 07:41:21 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:41:44 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:41:54 mvilleneuve: The sliding collector I am thinking of using (if performance turns out OK) preserves relative ages between objects, so that one can hopefully avoid promoting too young objects to an older generation, which typically happens to objects that were allocated right before the GC kicked in, and didn't have time to die before it did. 07:42:38 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:42:42 On the other hand, it is probably a bit more expensive in terms of execution time. 07:44:28 Jabberwockey [~jens@85.22.60.36] has joined #lisp 07:44:32 splittist: is it a DSL? Many DSL providers disconnect you every 24h to force a new IP address 07:44:34 spiaggia: mark and slide? (e.g. like CCL) 07:44:50 I don't know about CCL, but it sounds plausible. 07:45:03 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:45:04 mvilleneuve: You should consider that code *very* preliminary. In fact, most people tell me that it is a bad idea to write the GC in Lisp. 07:45:19 Guthur [c0c1f50e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.14] has joined #lisp 07:46:17 if C-c C-c is not working is there another way to abort the current execution 07:47:43 Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:48:31 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:48:48 spiaggia: actually, I'd be subversive and implement as much as possible in lisp...:) 07:49:59 p_l|uni: That's my plan, but it is still the case that many people tell me it's a bad idea. 07:50:01 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-129.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:38 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:51:25 spiaggia: technically I can see some reasoning for that, but most of it would disappear if you introduce a middle ground between LAP and CL, which could be easily used as sort of "C-like language embedded into CL" for the parts where you can't satisfy certain guarantees for CL 07:52:50 p_l|uni: I used to think that, and then some other people convinced me that that language could just be ... Lisp. 07:53:02 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:53:04 p_l|uni: prescheme. 07:53:40 Right, there are several examples of that. Wasn't there something called syslisp as well, perhaps from the PSL people? 07:55:53 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:58:03 heh, I found some interesting papers on GC in meanwhile 07:58:08 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 07:58:38 (basically, I found where exactly you can download PDFs of Sun's papers on JVM GCs without ACM membership) 08:00:32 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:00:55 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:03:28 Well, all you really need there are placeable unboxed arrays of words of various sizes. 08:05:31 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:38 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:06:26 spiaggia: thanks, I'll order Lins and Jones' book along with Muchnick's 08:07:28 I'd borrow it from a library. 08:07:36 Introductory texts don't really age well. 08:08:36 anyway, brb - need to go for a breakfast, so building change needed. cya 08:09:15 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: breakfast] 08:13:18 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7556e9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:47 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 08:16:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:40 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:16:55 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-rpktvyiqfkthkhqr] has joined #lisp 08:16:55 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-rpktvyiqfkthkhqr] has quit [Changing host] 08:16:55 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:17:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:46 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gjwzirqkcapkyohw] has joined #lisp 08:17:46 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gjwzirqkcapkyohw] has quit [Changing host] 08:17:46 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:17:55 (setf a ) used without previously making a special or lexical creates a special or lexical variable? 08:18:04 (apart from emitting a warning from the compiler) 08:18:18 <_3b> unspecified, migfht do either or might not 08:18:24 thx. 08:19:17 By unspecified you mean it's left up to the implementation by the CL spec? 08:22:43 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:23:13 <_3b> right, as far as i remember, implementations are not forbidden to define behavior for that, but the spec doesn't say anything specific about it 08:23:47 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-juglrahxbtirdxmh] has joined #lisp 08:25:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 08:25:51 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:27:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:27:56 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:28:16 clhs 1.5.2 08:28:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_eb.htm 08:28:25 3. Conforming code shall not depend on the consequences of undefined or unspecified situations. 08:29:07 antoszka: a cl program is forbidden from relying on unspecified behavior. 08:31:42 lnostdal-android [~androirc@77.16.150.180.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 08:35:46 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:36:20 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:36:42 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:37:14 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-20-82-64-49-113.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:39:31 -!- SCVirus [~B234651@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:44:08 SCVirus [~B234651@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:08 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 08:48:54 *splittist* updates Adobe Reader, wonders why people complain about size of lisp binaries... 08:49:53 :) 08:50:04 Nshag 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09:16:38 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:20:03 Joreji [~thomas@69-077.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:23:40 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:25:02 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 09:27:50 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:28:18 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:14 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:30:36 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:31:02 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:32:10 -!- adeht [void@91.121.18.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:32:45 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 09:33:11 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: work work] 09:38:23 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-139-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:02 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:26 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.2.85] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:42:20 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu029.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:42:22 *p_l|uni* learns some more HTML5, sees better future for his Lisp startup ^_^ 09:42:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:38 nice, p_l|uni (: 09:42:56 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:44:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:45:04 a non-trivial issue will be mapping simple-lisp into JS, I think... unless I'll manage to succesfully avoid the whole thing altogether 09:45:16 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:46:24 yeah, you could just write javascript (: 09:48:02 antifuchs: the issue is whether or not I should expose fully custom clientside code to users that work at simple-lisp level 09:48:15 (parenscript-classic like system will be always available) 09:50:24 I might keep to Nitrogen-like model for simple-lisp for now 09:51:32 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:51:58 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:53:04 afk for now 09:53:08 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:55:59 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9ED1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-077.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:59:24 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:00:02 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E68F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:00:29 smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:44 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-33.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:01:52 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-33.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:07 Lizard46 [~Lizard46@173-166-26-206-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:49 Does anyone know how to use the 'guess.ss' teachpack in drracket/scheme? 10:02:52 urandom__ [~user@p548A6395.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:53 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:03:32 load it's file in drscheme ? 10:03:42 then you'll see what it all contains ? 10:03:51 and how it is supposed to be run/used ? 10:03:51 #scheme might know 10:04:39 No i'm trying to figure out how to use it to solve this problem: 10:04:41 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 10:04:43 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:04:55 Develop the function check-guess. It consumes two numbers, guess and target. 10:05:07 . Depending on how guess relates to target, the function produces one of the following three answers: 'TooSmall, 'Perfect, or 'TooLarge 10:06:18 The function implements one part of a two-player number guessing game. 10:06:27 One player picks a random number between 0 and 99999. 10:06:35 The other player's goal is to determine this number, called target, with the least number of guesses. 10:06:41 To each guess, the first player responds with one of the three responses that check-guess implements. 10:06:50 Lizard46: have a look at COND, the ur-branching construct, and the predicates in the Numbers chapter of the hyperspec. 10:08:48 -!- Lizard46 [~Lizard46@173-166-26-206-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 10:10:48 I have that effect... 10:14:23 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 10:14:29 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:16:02 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:17:09 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 10:17:45 cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has joined #lisp 10:17:53 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 10:20:54 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:44 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:21:58 mvilleneuve: Those are both good books to have. I am disappointed in the Fortran-like style of the algorithms in Muchnick's book. Someone should rewrite those algorithms in a more modern style. 10:22:40 swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 10:25:37 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:27:58 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7556e9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28:58 isn't that the book with the rather math-y code, which uses set operations in pseudo code, and discusses possible data structures to use for that in the text only? 10:29:14 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:11 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:31:48 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 10:32:40 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:34:58 lichtblau: yep 10:35:59 segyr [~segyr@213.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:37:22 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:37:42 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 10:39:11 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:40:59 Well, not *exactly*. I agree with the first part, but the data structures are often relatively clear, and they are what one would do before the existence of pointers etc. It uses indexes into arrays and such instead in a style that reminds me of a Fortran program that needs to simulate the use of pointers. 10:43:47 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:44:22 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:44:32 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-18-28.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:38 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-108-127.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:45:50 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:52 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:48:39 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:49:01 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-rwytpvsxdmoppahd] has joined #lisp 10:49:10 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-rwytpvsxdmoppahd] has quit [Changing host] 10:49:10 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:51:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:51:29 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:51:55 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:54:18 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:54:58 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-18-28.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:56:12 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C7AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:21 -!- segyr [~segyr@213.85-200-233.bkkb.no] has left #lisp 10:59:00 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 10:59:10 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 10:59:10 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:59:23 I take back whatever I ever said about dependency issues between Lisp libraries 10:59:39 Java takes the DLL Hell to a new level and runs with it 11:00:25 just wait for QL hell 11:01:40 Xach: I somehow doubt that QL will be capable of "losing" a core part of the implementation somewhere during system loading 11:01:42 serichsen [~user@f048037175.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:00 spiaggia: true. a lot of time the explanations are also a tad impenetrable in comparison to what is going on 11:02:01 which is what OSGi just did 11:02:34 Hello! 11:03:21 Xach: I'm kinda close to the error of the kind "package CL not found" ;> 11:03:49 p_l|uni: just wait till you try to load a package that does (mapcar #'delete-package (list-all-packages)) ... 11:05:03 p_l|uni: if java can do it, lisp can do it 10x more! 11:05:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:05:27 nikodemus: Definitely. He can really complicate things that are trivial. 11:09:48 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-245-112.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:08 nikodemus: or (nreverse (package-name (find-package 'cl))) 11:10:59 what is the meaning of /= ? 11:11:07 Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:11:24 homie: numerical inequality 11:11:44 but why is (/= 3 3) false then ? 11:11:55 homie: INequality. 11:12:09 homie: it's supposed to look like an equal sign with a bar across. 11:12:10 think != 11:12:16 (not (= x y)) 11:12:22 ah 11:12:28 ok 11:13:31 (/= x y z) is not the same as (not (= x y z)) though 11:13:42 QL? 11:13:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:14:56 minion: Quicklisp? 11:14:56 Quicklisp: Quicklisp aims to make it easy to get started with a rich set of community-developed Common Lisp libraries. http://www.cliki.net/Quicklisp 11:15:00 why does the hyperspec mention /= is true if two numbers are the same in value ? 11:15:13 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has left #lisp 11:15:22 but then you can give more then one number to it 11:15:22 homie: Er, because that is the definition? 11:15:46 ah, OK, thought it might be something else 11:16:51 homie: "The value of /= is true if no two numbers are the same in value; otherwise it is false." 11:16:58 note the no in "if no two numbers" 11:17:17 huups 11:17:35 oh my, totally missed that "no" in between 11:17:35 so it does pairwise comparisons of all the numbers passed in, and returns true only if no pair exists where (= x y) would hold. 11:17:38 ok 11:18:12 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:19:44 but it does compare alternating the pairs built ? 11:20:42 otherwise (= 3 2 3) would return true too 11:20:50 err (/= 3 2 3) 11:21:54 so the first pair is 3,2 then 3,3 ? 11:22:34 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-120-136.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:22:57 antifuchs: thx 11:23:31 homie: It compares every possible pair of numbers. In your example, 3 and 2, 2 and 3, 3 and 3 11:23:38 ah ok 11:26:25 and in case there is no pair it just returns true 11:26:34 like in (/= 3) 11:26:39 ok 11:27:39 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-120-90.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:27:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:28:12 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:28:25 dore [~dore@athedsl-202561.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:28:57 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tgvlsjeczvdnpkaj] has joined #lisp 11:31:32 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-120-90.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:32:38 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:39:30 Aladore [~Aladore@85.192.211.30] has joined #lisp 11:41:11 ltriant [~ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 11:42:50 froydnj [~froydnj@cpe-173-89-193-139.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:45:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:10 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-wogirxnqqqfpmgwy] has joined #lisp 11:46:10 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-wogirxnqqqfpmgwy] has quit [Changing host] 11:46:10 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:48:33 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:54:43 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:55:02 antifuchs: did you see my modest entry to the competitive world of CL benchmarking? 11:55:36 no, not yet... what did you do? (: 11:55:47 start of sb-bench contrib 11:55:48 "The value of /= is true if no two numbers are the same in value; otherwise it is false." what's hard to understand here? 11:56:02 http://github.com/nikodemus/sb-bench 11:56:40 pjb: it's hard to understand if you miss the "no", see above. 11:57:21 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:33 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 11:57:35 pjb: logic negation. it is probably easier to read as "The value of /= is false if two number are the same in value; otherwise it is false" 11:57:40 nikodemus: okay! 11:57:45 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:58:05 nikodemus: do I understand correctly that this is meant to provide a repeatable running env for benchmarks? 11:58:28 ah, ok, collation too 11:58:30 nice. 11:58:49 (and it's more correct without the copy/paste error, too ;) ) 11:59:20 antifuchs: basically, i want to add a bench/ directory to sbcl cvs for various microbenchmarks. a framework is needed for that. this is the start of that 11:59:33 looks nice (: 11:59:35 I like open-code 11:59:40 -!- Hraban [~user@78-21-52-134.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:59:50 next step is proper reports 12:00:37 something simple like cl-bench's format would be nice. that would make incorporation in boinkmarks very easy 12:00:39 but, i was wondering if i should rename it and factor sbcl specific measurements into sbcl.lisp and make it portable 12:00:43 also, stddev and stuff (: 12:01:19 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:01:20 Can you interlink git projects? 12:01:21 antifuchs: it has stddev :) assuming my implementation of it is correct, that is 12:01:22 hm. I see you're specifying estimated run time, not number of runs 12:01:26 tcr: git-submodule? 12:01:55 I mean if sb-bench is made a standalone thingie similiar to asdf, but you still want to have it distributed with sbcl 12:02:55 it has the sample standard deviation 12:02:58 (sort of) 12:03:04 that may or may not be the same as what you actually want 12:03:08 antifuchs: if you're running against a baseline it number of iterations and samples comes from there. if you don't have a baseline the number of runs is specified but number of iterations is chosen so that the benchmark runs long enough 12:03:59 i want a number that is the most intuitive representation of deviation 12:04:14 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p021285.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:04:14 i still don't understand statistics properly :/ 12:04:36 but deviation of what? 12:04:51 I feel like I should conduct a mini-tutorial at this point: "why do we measure things several times?" 12:04:53 runs = number of samples to take. iterations = number of times the benchmark loops per sample taken 12:05:31 to see if the results are consistent -- if they are all over the place, then the mean is ... less meaningful 12:05:57 so I would claim that the thing you care about is some kind of notional "true" time that one iteration takes (or equivalently, the notional "true" number of iterations per second) 12:06:43 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:06:46 if that is the case, then a useful deviation is not so much the _sample_ standard deviation, as the estimate of the standard deviation of the _mean_ 12:06:57 -!- wareya [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:07:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:07:25 ok. how does one compute that, and what does the sample standard deviation tell instead of that? 12:07:30 wareya [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:07:42 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:07:55 one way of getting an intuition for the difference is: assuming that your samples are drawn from approximately a stationary distribution, the sample standard deviation is approximately independent of the number of samples you take (it is a measure of the distribution's standard deviation) 12:08:09 whereas you expect to become more sure about where the "true" mean is the more samples you take, correct? 12:08:24 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 12:08:34 -!- fmu_ [89@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eewslnvmmlhigiwl] has quit [] 12:08:54 *nikodemus* thinks 12:09:35 ok, i think i see that 12:09:35 the intuition might be that measurement error can go both ways 12:09:49 and the more samples you take the more likely that all your sources of error end up cancelling out 12:10:07 ok, so the quantity estimating the standard deviation of the "true" mean is known as the standard error 12:10:25 the result you want is that it is in fact the same as the sample standard deviation, divided by the square root of the number of samples 12:10:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:10:54 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:10:54 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 12:11:55 krystof: for counted events it's the square root divided by (number of samples minus 1), isn't it? 12:12:15 standard error is (/ stddev (sqrt n-samples))? or standard error is acceptably small when it is that? 12:12:57 Hraban [~user@78-21-52-134.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 12:13:06 flip214: if that correction makes a practical difference, you are doing it wrong 12:13:28 krystof: yes, I know. Just wanted to ask someone who seems to know what's he doing ;-) 12:13:41 nikodemus: the quantity known as "standard error", which is a measure of the uncertainty in the mean, is calculated by (/ stddev (sqrt n-samples)) 12:13:45 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 12:14:05 excellent, thank you 12:14:12 flip214: actually, I think the n-1 comes in to the estimate of the population standard deviation, and not to the square root term in the standard error 12:14:20 i was confused by "the result you want is that it is in fact the same" :) 12:14:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 12:14:30 but I'd have to sit down and work it out, because in practice it never matters 12:15:16 another question: in benchmarking there's something as the optimal timing (no other thread running on the same CPU, caches just "warm enough", etc), so the distribution is one-sided. 12:15:24 (more bad values than good) 12:15:58 should that be accounted for in some way? at least the minimum time for some input set given, so that algorithms can be better compared? 12:17:09 i compute a "quality" for a given benchmark from mean of run-time-sdev/run-time-mean and real-time-sdev/real-time-mean 12:17:32 Perhaps it would be better to give back minimum, first quartile, median, third quartile, maximum. 12:17:36 scaled to 0-100 (clamping negatives to 0) 12:19:01 the quality is intended to be just a quick way of eyeballing if things look sensible. i *think* that should use stderr too, then 12:19:18 Taking the median instead of the mean might be more meaningful for a benchmark. 12:23:56 ska`` [~user@ppp-115-87-234-154.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:24:28 How about this: (values median (/ (- third-quartile first-quartile) 2) first-quartile third-quartile minimum maximum) 12:28:30 That second value would be the median absolute deviation. 12:29:46 serichsen: pretty much all the benchmarks i've seen use mean. i can believe it that people are clueless about statistics -- but can you tell me why median would be better? 12:30:46 nikodemus: It is much less sensitive about outliers, and it represents the location better when the distribution is skewed. 12:30:57 also, it all needs to come down to numbers that are easy to compare and visualize sensibly -- so i'm unsure what to do with data beyond "estimator" and "estimator for error" 12:31:36 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 12:31:55 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:54 serichsen: i think that in benchmarks outliers should not generally be ignored: (1) they should noted because they indicate something is wonky (2) if there are consistent outliers (n% of runs goes off the chart) then that can be GC hitting, which needs to be accounted for in the results 12:33:49 tfb [~tfb@92.40.115.239.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:34:08 wvdschel [~wim@d51A4AD41.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 12:34:09 nikodemus: There are so-called "box and whisker plots", which represent the five values (minimum first-quartile median third-quartile maximum). They give a rough visualization of a more detailed histogram. 12:37:20 -!- lnostdal-android [~androirc@77.16.150.180.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:40:26 so, how to estimate if the number of samples is reasonable? 12:40:35 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tgvlsjeczvdnpkaj] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:41:13 nikodemus: From the distribution of a previous run? 12:41:49 serichsen: so "by inspection"? 12:42:46 as in, there isn't a sensible minimum number of samples after which you can look at standard error and say "hey, we need more samples!" or "good enough"? 12:42:55 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-139-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 12:43:20 *nikodemus* wants a magic number :/ 12:43:25 Munksgaard_ [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:44:17 *katofiad* smacks arbscht around a lot with a lisp trout 12:44:46 nikodemus: well, the easiest magic number is error ~ sqrt(runs) ... 12:44:58 the more runs, the smaller the "measurement error" (whatever that means here) 12:45:12 katofiad: I should have known something was fishy :) 12:45:14 so, to get measurements that could be exact to 1%, you need 10000 runs 12:45:37 nikodemus: I am not sure if such a number can be given, but I think that a first indicator would be the breadth of the distribution in relation to the absolute value of the median. 12:45:38 pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 12:45:38 -!- pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Client Quit] 12:45:48 makes no sense to compare 0.05% speedup if you've only got 3 measurements 12:45:55 pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 12:46:23 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-147-129.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:25 right'o 12:46:29 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.189] has joined #lisp 12:46:48 Unless those are very precise measurements, of course. 12:47:35 Hi, i have a function that looks like this: http://gist.github.com/616725 . When i've opened it in a file in emacs and compile it with slime (clisp), (test 29395278) returns 4427.0, but when i type in the function definition in the REPL it returns 4426.9995. Is emacs messing with my float precision? 12:48:05 -!- pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Client Quit] 12:48:11 pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 12:48:11 -!- pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Changing host] 12:48:11 pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 12:49:14 I would be surprized if that made a difference, but perhaps it does. Perhaps compiled code is more 'efficient' in processing floating point dataflow, thus resulting in less rounding errors. 12:50:04 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:50:14 Well, the last result 4426.9995 is the correct one, the compiled function has more rounding erros :S 12:50:29 Munksgaard_: Maybe one function is interpreted, the other compiled? 12:51:08 relcomp: yes, i'd think so. The one that doesnt work is when i compile it with C-c C-c in emacs 12:51:21 and the compiled wrong gives me a wrong result 12:51:53 Munksgaard_: well, indeed, compiling it changes the result. 12:51:57 compiled one* 12:52:18 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:52:30 pjb: but shouldnt it return the same wether its compiled or not? 12:52:44 Not necessarily. 12:52:53 plage [~user@ssh1.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 12:52:59 Good afternoon! 12:53:01 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:53:02 Yes it should. Even when it doesn't. 12:53:16 when it doesn't do so. 12:53:25 For example, intermediate values may be collected in interpreted code, (thus converting eg. 80-bit floats to 64-bit floats), while in compiled code, everything could be computed in the FPU with 80 bits. 12:53:41 -!- pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has left #lisp 12:53:41 I would expect the compiled results be more precise... 12:54:13 is there a good statistics for dummies book? 12:54:28 pjb: Yeah, i'd think so too, but in this case it isnt. How do i compile my .lisp file from the command line? 12:54:38 (i have a decent math background, statistics just don't feature there very much at all) 12:55:00 There's one "Statistics for Dummies", but it may not be statistically significant... 12:55:28 nikodemus: As far as I have seen, the recommendations for the number of samples are mostly "as much as possible". 12:55:34 Munksgaard_: (compile-file "my.lisp") or (ext:shell "clisp -C my.lisp") 12:55:37 ,standard error, mean , mean-variance, variance, co-variance etc.... 12:55:44 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:55:46 puuuhhh 12:56:36 anyone experimented with integrating existing http push systems with Lisp? The SymbolicWeb stuff afaik uses its own solution... 12:57:05 pjb: soo, how do i run it? :) 12:57:14 serichsen: of course. but measurement error as an estimator for max accuracy of is about just right for my needs 12:57:34 Munksgaard_: (load (compile-file "my.lisp")) ensures it's compiled. 12:57:49 (or in different terms, the infamous "Comet") 12:58:16 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:58:47 pjb: Okay, so the compiled file gives me a rounding error. Any way to fix this? 12:59:59 Munksgaard_: Have you tried different optimization settings? 13:00:02 Munksgaard_: if that's really the case, 1- complain on clisp-list@lists.sourceforge.net ; 2- you could try using double-floats or long-floats or even ratios. 13:00:04 Munksgaard_: did you look at the disassembly ? 13:00:12 Munksgaard_: Curiously, on my version of clisp, the compiled version gives 4427.0, but the interpreted gives 4426.9995. 13:00:33 Munksgaard_: and compared what parts are maybe different, or what is added or removed, that makes it behave that way ? 13:00:39 rtoym: Exactly! That's what mine does too. The compiled one is wrong. 13:00:58 Munksgaard_: How do you know? 13:01:18 homie: No. I'm not really that savy in lisp. I don't know how to dissassemble, or even how to interpret the dissassembled lisp code. 13:01:37 Munksgaard_: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm 13:01:49 plage: well, Wolframalpha gives a much more precise result, namely 4426.9998494032[...] 13:01:57 Seems lispaste is broken, it doesn't return the new url page when sending, and doesn't paste the url here... 13:02:07 So yeah, both of them are wrong, but that really messes up my computations! 13:02:40 Munksgaard_: More digits doesn't mean more precision. 13:03:00 Munksgaard_: do you use a binary or did you compile your own clisp ? 13:03:03 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:03:03 Munksgaard_: 4427.0 is closer to the truth than 4427.9995, then. 13:03:07 plage: 1/6 (1+sqrt(705486673)) precise enough for you? 13:03:11 nikodemus: I've read "statistics for dummies" - good and nice to read, more than enough details, I think. 13:03:55 plage: it's still not 4427.0. So basically isinteger function doesnt work... 13:04:03 Munksgaard_: maybe it's just a matter of enabling something in the lisp reader ? or writer ? 13:04:07 homie: i compiled it with emerge. 13:04:07 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@65.242.219.13] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:04:14 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:18 Rounded to a single float this is indeed 4426.0 13:04:18 oh ok 13:04:25 Munksgaard_: do you have the lisp overlay? 13:04:36 homie: so i dont know exactly what options were enabled, but i could of course compile it again with some other options. 13:04:41 pjb: You mean 4427.0 13:04:42 Munksgaard_: just use doubles: (defun test (p) (/ (+ 1.0d0 (sqrt (+ 1.0d0 (* 24.0d0 p)))) 6.0d0)) 13:04:45 Yes. 13:04:58 serichsen: lisp overlay? No, i don't think so. I'm running it in emacs via slime. 13:05:13 Munksgaard_: anything gsl,lapack,atlas,sse or sse2 specific ? 13:06:11 pjb: Mmm, no i don't think so. I'm not sure what all those are though... 13:06:18 homie: i meant you :) 13:06:23 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:06:37 flip214: thanks 13:06:37 ok 13:06:41 Munksgaard_: gentoo has so-called overlays for portage. 13:07:13 minion: tell Munksgaard_about floating-point 13:07:13 Munksgaard_about: look at floating-point: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://docs-pdf.sun.com/800-7895/800-7895.pdf http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=103163 http://focus.hut.fi/docs/WorkShop/common/ug/goldberg1.doc.html 13:07:21 pjb: okay, i'll try that. I need to check if the result from test is an integer or not (like in, a whole number), maybe i should do it another way than (= (round n) n) ? 13:08:01 pjb: Yeah i think i read that some time ago. Still doesnt explain why the interpreted and the compiled version gives different results. 13:08:10 I explained it to you! 13:08:14 serichsen: No, i don't use any overlays i think. 13:08:28 Compiled gives the right result, because it computes in the FPU, so it avoid rounding errors. 13:08:35 Interpreted you get an wrong result. 13:08:41 munksgaard: the various rounding functions return a second value, the fraction. you could look whether thats <0.001 or >0.999 or something like that. 13:09:05 pjb: Arh. Okay. But then my program is broken :-( 13:09:23 The error in interpreted code is more than twice the error in the compiled version. 13:09:31 Munksgaard_: Then test if sqrt returns an integer and if so, test if the rest is divisible by 6. 13:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:08 Okay okay :D 13:10:25 Thanks a lot for the help guys! 13:10:50 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 13:11:13 Munksgaard_: I would recommend to get the lisp overlay. 13:11:47 I've been really frustrated that it didnt work. I even made a little workaround by calculating it the other way around, but it just seemed so ugly and hackish :-( 13:12:02 serichsen: Okay, i'll look into that. Thank you. 13:14:43 pjb: hmm. but the error in the interpreted version must be clisp specific, right? 13:15:08 LW seems to give the exact same result for both for example. 13:17:05 hypno: each implementation may schedule floating point instructions its own way. So, indeed, it's implementation specific. Even compiled code could give divergent results. 13:17:50 ah, ok. 13:18:01 jade complains on the files generated by Albert that there's no attribute "class" or "hovertext". What can I do about it? 13:18:16 There's no other error message than these ones. 13:19:34 nikodemus: for more style, you might want to be performing geometric rather than arithmetic averages 13:19:37 Perhaps I could use a different version of the dtd? Which one would work? 13:21:08 krystof: maybe just all low-level measurements should be collected first; then an analyser could detect the distribution, and just use log(dt) in case it's then more like a gaussian? 13:21:49 Eeek! no, with 4.2 it's worse! 13:23:48 -!- dore [~dore@athedsl-202561.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:25:06 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d51A4AD41.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:52 nikodemus: in my experience it is easy to 'learn' an awful lot of statistics without really understanding anything. You end up with a list of recipes (autocorrelation, heteroskedasticity...) of increasing complexity without being able to answer simple questions that are slightly off the beaten path. Of course, that could just be me. 13:26:29 i'd like to understand the basics, at least 13:26:38 Blkt [~user@93-33-143-123.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:26:42 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:27:37 good day everyone 13:28:21 hello Blkt 13:28:27 because while i know how to compute geometric mean, i don't know understand what it means in comparison to the arithmetic mean. (i understand the geometry, not the statistical implications) 13:29:01 well, AFAIK the geometric mean is useful if your distribution is log-normal. 13:29:25 ie. if the geometric mean is 100, then 10 and 1000 are equally likely 13:30:08 for a normal distribution for mean = 100 then 10 and 190 would be equally likely 13:30:20 it "just" depends on the distribution 13:31:02 I have been talking to my colleagues about this 13:31:05 dore [~dore@athedsl-194800.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 13:31:13 hm. i think i'll separate out the data collection and statistics a bit more, so that things are more pluggable 13:31:20 or at least easier to change down the road 13:31:30 for benchmark values I'd think that the errors (for a given input set!) are not geometric; not even normal, as positive errors are more likely. 13:31:40 the quick summary is: if your quantity that you are averaging is a scale parameter (i.e. something that measures the size of something else), then the geometric average is more likely to be appropriate 13:32:00 you can't get better than the optimal case - but there are many changes to get worse (gc, other processes, IO, etc.) 13:32:15 that's why I'd like to see the minimum, too. 13:32:22 a slightly different way of thinking about it: if "doubling" and "halving" is the natural way of talking about changes, then you want geometric mean. (If "adding" and "subtracting" is the natural way of talking about changes, then you want arithmetic mean) 13:32:23 nikodemus: good idea, thank you. 13:32:58 Krystof: ok, that makes sense 13:33:41 nikodemus: you can take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lognormal_distribution_PDF.svg 13:34:29 I'd expect that the benchmark results look like the 3/2 line, but starting with the minimum time that's possible 13:34:47 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.10.88] has joined #lisp 13:35:13 but if you're playing around there you might have *real* values to look at 13:35:45 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:35:54 nikodemus: also, I recommend R for data exploration :-) , now with mostly useful features 13:36:36 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 13:37:59 I've played with ggobi a bit 13:38:11 but R is much more, I believe 13:40:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:41:14 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:28 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:41:45 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:02 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-143-123.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:43:05 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:43:14 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 13:43:53 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:46:08 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:48:26 -!- Hraban [~user@78-21-52-134.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:49:33 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:30 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:51:32 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:52:08 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-61-75.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:52:40 -!- plage [~user@ssh1.labri.fr] has left #lisp 13:53:31 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:48 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-26-232.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:53:49 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:55:12 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 13:57:07 phetips [~phetips@89.146.16.136] has joined #lisp 13:57:33 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@116-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:58:00 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:07 lemoinem [~swoog@116-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:02 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:03:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:03:31 *Xach* wonders what happened to xristos's plokami 14:05:10 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:27 I want to be a super cool Lisp Super-Hero, but my problem is it gives me scary dreams at night... 14:07:33 What to do??? 14:08:25 Give up and go back to whatever it is that you do. Clearly, a few troubled nights are sufficient to stop you. 14:08:49 phetips, become a Haskell super-hero instead? 14:09:05 :) 14:09:06 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 14:09:35 no in fact i am very serious about my interests in lisp, and the underlying problem is true.. i just packaged it in a semifunny-ish question 14:09:47 i want to learn lisp, but because i do not know it yet the difference between the dialects puzzles me 14:10:23 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:10:29 so i cannot really figure out what a good place to start is 14:10:33 consider dialects different languages 14:10:35 phetips: Well, to make this easy: start with Common Lisp, read PCL. You are still here? 14:11:22 PCL? 14:11:39 minion: tell phetips about PCL 14:11:39 phetips: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 14:11:43 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-38-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:52 phetips, LiSP in Small Pieces? 14:11:52 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:12:04 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:04 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:10 shriram's book on programming languages? 14:12:11 Allright, just one more question 14:12:13 Strangely enough, if I try to think about the idea of "Pascal Super Hero", the picture of Captain Sweetpants comes to mind... 14:12:26 *Sweatpants 14:12:27 are you recommending this because someone in this channel wrote it :) ? or because it is a good introduction book 14:12:59 phetips: can't it be both? 14:13:04 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 14:13:05 i guess : 14:13:06 :) 14:13:36 allright well solid advice :), thanks 14:13:44 bookmarked 14:13:52 any particular reasons to start out with Common Lisp? 14:14:07 phetips: this is the common lisp channel. 14:14:11 oh hah 14:14:35 Could've seen that yes 14:15:05 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-129.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:15:07 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:15:12 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:31 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-186-77.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:15:56 the only fear I have (if what i heard about lisp is true) is that if i learn it i will start to hate doing anything in a prodedural/OO language 14:16:06 which would be bad considering i have to do that for work 14:16:19 phetips: that can happen even without learning lisp 14:16:28 in fact, it's one of the first things most people who read about do 14:16:37 perhaps not most, but some 14:16:55 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-139-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:45 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:14 Bronsa [~bronsa@host97-178-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:20:37 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 14:20:37 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 14:20:37 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:20:40 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:21:01 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:21:32 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:22:56 phetips: Depending on what you work on or in, there are aspects you may miss. 14:23:21 phetips, if you want a different lisp, there are #clojure, #scheme, #racket, #emacs around 14:23:22 A person making that statement may have said it because he misses closures and macros - it may not hurt as much if you had closures. 14:24:08 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:24:21 -!- siccegge [~siccegge@faui49j.informatik.uni-erlangen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:58 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:28:37 Davidbrcz_ [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:28:53 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.10.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:29:57 silenius [~silenus@dslb-088-075-064-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:05 BrandLeeJones_ [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:31:21 Modius: i work in web development 14:31:52 but according to Paul Graham's bank account Lisp is not too bad for web development either 14:31:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:33:00 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:12 phetips: despite his bta-rant, i guess his bank account reflects more that he was one of the first to develop a sane webshop solution than his choice of language 14:33:31 be it as it may, what Common Lisp will help you with is pragmatic and easy solutions to programming problems. it is a way of thinking, and as such, it will be an aid regardless of language. 14:33:35 according to himself, his choice of language was a large part of his success 14:33:52 programming language doesn't magically make you more clever 14:34:00 i am not claiming that : 14:34:02 :) 14:34:09 stassats, youve taken away my only hope 14:34:14 but it can give you leverage, it funny 14:34:28 what you are saying stassats is a common reaction when people compare high level languages, 14:34:49 *MultiMind* glancesup 14:34:57 but no one will do that if you compare writing a web application in x86 assembly with, say, doing it in python 14:35:00 or php 14:35:02 or ruby 14:35:12 so why cannot it be true amongst high level languages? 14:35:48 25 years or so ago, lisp was key to various influential microcultures...while other languages could express the same meaning, in paris, french was the easy fluency (so to speak) 14:35:49 writing a web application in x86 assembly isn't so bad if you have a good library, though it will surely shape your design. so too in the higher level languages. 14:35:55 stassats: programming language can avoid forcing you to do dumb things 14:36:27 tokenrove: in theory yes, in reality, no 14:36:39 on the first part 14:36:48 of course a language comes with a certain mindset 14:37:05 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:06 other people helping find your dumb mistakes may be facilitated by a known dialect rather than some more obscure assembly-embodiment 14:37:09 but i'm arguing some languages give leverage over others in certain areas of programming 14:37:19 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:37:35 and people get quite sensetive about the subject when i do it 14:37:43 phetips: well, just as with the choice of language in general, it makes sense to choose what's best for the target environment. at the same time, knowing both CL and assembly language will affect the way one solves problems in all languages. 14:37:44 it's as if they percieve it as programming language racism 14:37:53 like all languanges need to be treated equally ;p 14:38:02 someone i know was big for a while on coding disproofs of claims made to any specific language (which they were exposed to at the time by collegagues) 14:38:09 tokenrove: yes i agree 14:38:48 it must be the case that given human minds various expression-methods-choices are more intuitive in each language and would effect certain outcomes 14:39:04 i have learned (as far as that's possible) x86 assembly for that particular reason 14:39:13 and it is the same reason i'm interested in lisp 14:39:27 for writing inline assembly in lisp 14:39:27 as with human languages: 'into the water from the cliff' might experience a different level of nuance in say, spanish than in english 14:39:28 phetips: from that point of view, it makes sense to learn CL, but also Prolog, Erlang, J, Forth, etc. this is not to discourage you from using CL: i think it's uniquely superior in the present language landscape, but it's a common novice mistake to expect it to be a panacea on the basis of grahamhype. 14:39:28 ? 14:40:02 haha yeah 14:40:04 i understand 14:40:08 irrespective of what language you choose, writing code trumps waxing lyrical about the language 14:40:20 and I admit I am sensitive to that type of hype 14:40:26 isn't there an implicit advantage in lisp when switching to a mips processor from x86 assembly though? 14:40:40 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:02 MultiMind: do you mean something in particular? 14:41:03 MultiMind: sure, but maybe your target is an embedded system that serves the webapp. 14:41:07 *MultiMind* would always wonder what obscure processor someone may be working on somewhere on the globe in some not-so-known lab 14:41:13 isnt mips more or less as register starved as x86? or what in particular would be better? 14:41:19 phetips: It has happened a few times that a great webapp is written in lisp with a very small team and then it's acquired by another company and they have to rewrite it in Java or something because they must continue the development and maintenance with much bigger teams. Hehe. 14:41:35 a good argument for an embedded lisp, that might be :) 14:41:51 hypno: there maybe some cool tricks suitable for lisp, but i don't know mips 14:42:11 got me hypno..it was actually a question as well as (a) rhetoric(al) question 14:42:14 hypno: no, mips has way more registers. but it's my least favorite risc of those i've programmed on. sparc on the other hand had some specific concessions to lisps of the time. 14:42:43 hmm question needed parenths too 14:42:44 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:43:17 tokenrove: ah, ok. 14:43:18 also one of the sources of my interest in lisp is that the people coding in it, seem to be several magnitudes smarter than the average programmer :) 14:43:46 a company i knew liked that the caches on the sun processors they used in their big machines (of the day) 14:43:49 so that gets me thinking there must be something there other languages don't have 14:44:21 phetips: after getting into CL, you might develop a hatred for whatever language you're stuck with at a given time, but you'll equally (imho) benefit from the CL perspective (and inevitable greenspunning) even in lamer languages. 14:44:30 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:44:31 sussman and some of the lisp advocates, seemed very smart (i agree) 14:45:13 lol greenspunning eh (as in philip i presume) 14:45:41 roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:45:53 I am ashamed to admit the language I am stuck with it at the time :) 14:45:59 MultiMind: but he's a schemer! 14:46:07 because there are more things that are wrong with it than there is time to mention them 14:46:27 i'd love to hear about that web-school greenspun & co tried 14:46:30 phetips: In my opinion, Common Lisp's single greatest advantage is the ability to easily define DSLs (Domain-Specific Languages) specifically adapted to the task at hand. You can get CRAZY productive boosts (after the initial investment of designing and implementing the DSL) and reuse like this. 14:46:32 MultiMind, MIPS has 32 gp registers, which is 4 times more than the plain old ia16 or ia32. 14:46:54 Sebastian_Sturm: Your (re) posting has not appeared on the mailing list. Did you get a reject message, and if so, can you forward it to me? 14:47:02 Hexstream: yes that's an argument i've heard before 14:47:22 and twice as many as amd64 14:47:38 sounds like a language i would like because that is how i generally approach problems, in a manner that is WAY too broad for projects/language i work on/with 14:47:39 no, I didn't get any response from the mailing list bot. 14:47:54 Fare i noticed some of the sgi machines seemed to run pretty smoothly...like never having lifted the hood on a jaguar i suppose 14:48:41 the sgi software is optimized for the apps they sell. Just don't you stray from the intended use. 14:49:19 Sebastian_Sturm: Why don't you send your email to me, and I'll send it to the mailing list. Then you should at least get a message from the mailing list, and if you can respond to it, we'll see if that message gets through. 14:49:31 open courseware at mit has an old sussman course done in lisp (it's free..and it's fun to see students rifling binders and notes in that era rather than using small computers--not to mention their haircuts) 14:49:33 Hexstream: I'd qualify what you said. It's only easy to write sexp or LL(1) DSLs. 14:49:42 I'll do that, thank you 14:49:56 Fare: what are sexp or LL(1) domainlanguages? 14:50:04 fare i'm going to try a linux on one of the o2's around here one of these days 14:50:17 sexp = s-expressions. (stuff with (many parentheses)) 14:50:20 phetips, a sexp DSL is read by the lisp reader as sexp 14:50:45 a LL(1) DSL is one that can be read by a LL(1) grammar, which can then be a reader extension. 14:50:46 LL(1) is a category of formal languages where you only need to look ahead at 1 symbol to know what to do next (roughly). 14:51:12 i see 14:51:18 because lisp streams have only one level of unread-char / lookahead. 14:51:20 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:48 -!- ASau [~user@77.246.230.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:52:25 I am definitely going to check that book out, perhaps i'll be enlightened and start coding lisp 14:52:47 but yeah, being forced to code PHP 40 hours a week will make anyone beg for something different :) 14:53:07 Fare: I have completely disregarded custom reader-macros in my DSL implementations so far. CLSQL's bracket syntax has imprinted a lasting bad impression of them on me. 14:53:38 you can do some pretty amazing things with the reader. sometimes it's very useful. 14:53:45 (if i can get linux working on an 02, i can then see which non-tuned aps it chokes on most no doubt. hmm actually i have an informant who's used irix and then tuned some linux installs to do vr work, don't i) 14:53:52 Hexstream: the named-readtables library makes it saner 14:54:01 the rule of thumb of reader macros: don't use them unless you need to 14:54:01 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:54:12 Xach: Who knows. I'll have a look at it... 14:54:15 applies to ordinary macros too 14:54:18 oh yeah. named-readtables should become ubiquitous. 14:54:34 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:54:37 funny how I know quite a few programming languages yet haven't the slightest clue what you are discussing at the moment :) 14:54:53 Reader macros are nice for adding new concise ways to write literals for user objects 14:55:07 everything else is probably overuse 14:55:43 phetips: Wait until you try haskell 14:56:27 to allow for arbitrary lookahead in a DSL, we'd need not just named-readtable, but a wrapper that LOADs from streams with unlimited unread and/or a reimplemented parser that is more extensible than READ. 14:56:28 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@c-67-169-164-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:29 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@c-67-169-164-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:56:29 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 14:56:38 tcr: it is even more deviant? 14:56:58 tokenrove: Its adoption is prevented by insufficient support of optional dependencies in ASDF 14:57:10 well, there's extension of the reader intended for use in CL code, and then there's repurposing the reader for reading other things. imho substantial reader macroage is preferable to duplicating that effort for reading certain kinds of little languages. 14:57:12 at which point we're leaving the strict CL world and entering the world of radical extensions of CL 14:57:22 what about a statement like 'Reader macros are nice for adding new concise ways to write literals for user objects' isn't auto-explanatory, phetips? (jk) 14:57:52 MultiMind, as long as those ways are LL(1) 14:58:09 :) well i can try to make something of it, but ondoubtedly i'd come up with something far from it's real meaning :) 14:58:21 macros for me are still compile time code expansions ;-) 14:58:22 phetips: You can, for example, make #/ip/127.0.0.1 be parsed into the relevant in_addr 14:58:58 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host97-178-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:58:59 cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has joined #lisp 14:59:01 ASau [~user@77.246.230.186] has joined #lisp 14:59:24 into the c style in_addr structure? what approach would that imply? 14:59:24 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59:38 i mean, "be parsed" how? 14:59:44 phetips: one of the real wins of CL is that you can write lisp code that runs not just at "runtime", but also compile-time (macros) or read-time (reader macros) 15:00:12 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:19 tokenrove: yes that is exactly one of the things that confuses me into the land of headaches and question marks 15:00:21 By transforming it to an (unsigned-byte 32) at parse time, for example, or in general to whatever representation of ips you choose 15:00:29 could also be a 4element octet-vector 15:00:50 tcr: yes but what was your point? you can use any language to do that right? 15:01:03 You can modify the parser? 15:01:16 phetips: no; in other languages, that code would happen when the program is run 15:01:16 oh you mean the parser of the language itself :) 15:01:19 I'd think that's a rare property of implementations 15:01:41 i think you guys assume more knowledge of lisp style programming than i have :) 15:01:47 because mine is close to nihil 15:01:59 phetips: what tcr was demonstrating is that when the lisp parser reads #/ip/127.0.0.1 it replaces it with a uint32 15:02:09 phetips: so, read PCL and come back 15:02:23 stassats: good approach :), just killing friday afternoon time @ work 15:02:36 Xach: I've dreamed of something like named-readtables quite a few times! It's always nice when I discover a library that implements something I've dreamed of for so long like this. 15:04:02 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:05:56 -!- dore [~dore@athedsl-194800.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:06:27 dore [~dore@athedsl-194170.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:06:43 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:12 -!- BrandLeeJones_ [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones_] 15:08:03 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@85.22.60.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:08:20 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 15:08:37 e66 [~chatzilla@180.149.25.47] has joined #lisp 15:08:48 hello 15:09:09 Is there any way to port a LISP function to C? 15:09:32 rewrite it 8)? 15:09:43 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:09:52 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:53 e66: ECL compiles down to C 15:09:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:10:27 tcr: No I am not looking for any compiler or translator. We already use chestnut to translate SBCL codes. 15:10:51 You're looking for a porter? 15:10:57 e66: you could find someone who knows both Lisp and C and pay them to do it. 15:10:59 e66: then what do you mean by "port"? 15:11:06 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:11:46 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:38 H4ns: We have plenty of files. We are looking for ways to port some functions to C. 15:12:46 tama_ [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:58 e66: you mean you want to reimplement them in c because... because of what? 15:13:19 write the functions in C and use CFFI to use em in Lisp? 15:13:56 PissedNumlock: Thanks. Thats what I was looking for. 15:14:07 -!- tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:14:31 H4ns: Yes there is a because. But I dont want to mention it. 15:14:33 yw, but if that was what you needed you phrased your question poorly 15:14:39 e66: do you work at oracle, or where did you find chestnut? 15:15:55 nikodemus: I can not say where do I work. 15:16:30 PissedNumlock: The reason is I dont know LISP. 15:16:31 :D 15:16:35 e66: sounds like a challenge 15:16:49 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:16:50 (finding out where you work that is) 15:17:11 -!- veeger [~jarrod@1055hostc2.starwoodbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:17:40 lichtblau: ping 15:17:46 *splittist* reads about Chesnut, is fascinated 15:18:42 s/sn/stn/ 15:18:59 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:19:16 rfg [~rfg@82.132.136.167] has joined #lisp 15:19:59 IRC clients should support the s// function and do the edits... 15:20:10 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:56 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:25 jdz: or I could turn spell-checking on... 15:23:40 jdz: you could always make your own irssi script to make that work 15:23:50 hi 15:23:52 OliverUv: except that i don't use irssi 15:23:57 too bad 15:24:14 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:19 i'm only switching from xchat when i have CL irc client 15:24:23 i'm sure any decent irc client should have a simple plugin system 15:24:28 which i'm not making 15:24:38 jdz: ... beirc, wasn't it? 15:24:43 yeah i used to use xchat too, I don't mind it 15:24:54 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-191-33.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:55 -!- e66 [~chatzilla@180.149.25.47] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 15:25:06 I still use xchat, but it's starting to annoy me. 15:25:09 nyef: might as well; would brush up my CLIM skills, too 15:26:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:26:15 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:27 jdz: bring back beirc! (we need more brucio-nicks) 15:28:02 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:25 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914123505]] 15:28:29 BrandLeeJones_ [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:33:30 -!- phetips [~phetips@89.146.16.136] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:34:18 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 15:34:27 man. it has been a long time since anybody has heard from brucio. ;) 15:36:14 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326059.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:26 -!- Guthur [c0c1f50e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.14] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:37:09 has brucio been captured my terrorists or something? 15:37:37 *Xach* wonders what brucio would make of quicklisp 15:37:43 how can I configure the path where fasls go in sbcl? 15:37:53 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B32755C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:38:00 Xach: He'd probably benchmark it vs. asdf-install and clbuild, or something. 15:38:31 and point out that it still does not solve all of the lisp's problems? 15:38:41 "How quick /is/ Quicklisp?" 15:39:40 And I, for one, welcome our new lispy overloard 15:40:06 overloadr? 15:40:16 quicklisp 15:40:19 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:40:45 ... So, I was looking at the LISP 1.5 manual again recently, and I noticed that one of the parts of the system is called "OVERLORD". 15:40:48 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:41:17 -!- kuwabara1 is now known as kuwabara 15:41:25 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:41:27 nyef: is it used to implement EVIL? 15:41:36 "but overall, quicklisp is a lot better than asdf!" 15:41:49 good one, that 15:41:53 was maclisp a lisp 1.5? 15:42:47 Fade: No, it was an early mind-extension product by Apple. :-P 15:43:25 i thought maclisp was MIT's lisp 15:43:40 Brucio-12 [~Brucio-12@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:50 \o/ 15:43:53 ah, so it was. 15:44:11 (ql:quickload :beirc) (beirc:beirc) FTW 15:44:28 yay xach 15:44:30 Fade: From the "Machine-Aided Cognition" project, hence "mind-extension", and it was "mac" lisp, hence Apple. 15:44:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:53 I really need some coffee. 15:45:32 Brucio-12: does that work? 15:45:32 hah 15:45:40 *Xach* tries it 15:46:00 behold, an army of brucious! 15:46:09 Brucio-12: tease 15:46:22 it worked here 15:46:28 Brucio-12: you have a local beirc :) 15:46:33 *Xach* adds beirc to his list 15:46:33 d'oh! 15:46:41 sorry for the false alarm. 15:47:01 well, at least it makes mcclim and friends easy to get! 15:47:18 -!- kmc [clozure@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:47:46 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:47:53 -!- vandemar [holy@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:49:39 does anyone know how usable the cl-dbus library is? 15:50:50 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:51:57 vandemar [holy@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has joined #lisp 15:52:18 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-38-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:52:54 -!- silenius [~silenus@dslb-088-075-064-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:53:23 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:56:51 whoa, yay beirc (: 15:56:56 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 15:57:11 Brucio-12: it still works? (: 15:57:15 that's pretty amazing (: 15:57:19 -!- kmc [clozure@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 15:57:21 antifuchs: only if you have mcclim 15:57:53 ehu: well, yeah, but I'm amazed it hasn't bitrotted badly enough that ql can't install it 15:58:59 well, clbuild thinks it can run beirc (compiling at the moment) 15:59:11 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:59:26 silenius [~silenus@dslb-088-075-064-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:24 hmm, and suddenly a beirc window popped up 16:00:30 yay (: 16:00:56 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:01:11 the last time I looked at beirc, it could launch a frame, but I couldn't get it to join a server 16:01:25 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:01:34 hm, /connect should take care of that, I think 16:01:39 yeah, i'm failing to do that, now, too 16:01:40 it's been a long time 16:01:59 I'm pretty sure I tried /connect 16:02:33 antifuchs: usocket changed only in backward compat ways 16:02:44 antifuchs: I suppose mcclim didn't change at all. 16:02:52 minor changes 16:02:59 and cl-irc hasn't changed in 2 years either. 16:03:13 it's still amazing. bit rot has no powers over us (: 16:03:22 it actually can connect 16:03:23 so I guess they were bitrotting together :-) 16:03:40 sharing a coefficient of bitrot? 16:04:08 ahh 16:04:43 *p_l|uni* just did preliminary scouting of whether the Software Engineering coursework might include Common Lisp code in project deliverables \o/ 16:04:54 -!- jso [~user@ip68-111-169-131.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:05:16 Brucio-13 [~Brucio-13@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 16:05:19 was the answer "yes"? 16:05:21 yay, success! 16:05:24 when the slime fancy inspector is loaded... are all the presentations red for others, too? or is it just me? 16:05:33 Fade: not exactly, but it wasn't a full "no" either 16:05:39 this thing actually works! 16:05:45 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:05:53 Fade: the bad thing? The issues raised weren't exactly technical 16:05:57 jdz: did /connect do the trick? 16:06:19 yes, /connect irc.freenode.net 16:06:27 but first i had to change the nick 16:06:32 because the default one was already taken 16:06:36 probably by other brucio 16:06:49 ... is it a cl-irc party? :D 16:06:56 ok, gtg 16:07:02 cya later probably 16:07:23 Is it possible to profile a thread in sbcl using sb-thread:interrupt-thread and then start-profiling ? 16:08:25 -!- rfg [~rfg@82.132.136.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:54 antifuchs: my bot broke about a year ago. 16:09:09 antifuchs: so, that's where I kinda stopped working on it. 16:09:17 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:50 antifuchs: the problem in my bot is that sbcl seems to think there's an ASCII stream somewhere (instead of UTF-8 or latin1) 16:10:12 Bronsa [~bronsa@host97-178-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:10:18 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:10:19 hm, shouldn't everything be ub8 anyway? 16:10:19 anybody any idea which streams are being initialized to ascii characters? 16:10:47 could it be that - due to the bot running in a 'screen' session - 16:11:06 only if you open them with the appropriate :external-format 16:11:08 lisp usually picks that up from the locale 16:11:13 or you're running in LC_CTYPE=C 16:11:26 unless you explicitly open them with latin-1 or whatever. 16:11:31 *nod* 16:11:48 -!- Brucio-13 [~Brucio-13@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:11:48 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:12:08 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:15:00 right. the machine is running a UTF-8 locale 16:16:27 Blkt [~user@93-33-128-168.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:16:42 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-131-140.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:18:21 older screen programs sometimes override the default settings. 16:18:39 dore_ [~dore@athedsl-203482.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:20:28 -!- cpc26 [cpc26@pilot.trilug.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:43 -!- dore [~dore@athedsl-194170.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:22:32 cpc26 [cpc26@pilot.trilug.org] has joined #lisp 16:22:34 -!- cpc26 [cpc26@pilot.trilug.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:22:38 cpc26 [cpc26@pilot.trilug.org] has joined #lisp 16:23:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:23:44 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:23:44 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 16:24:03 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.115.239.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:18 ehu: i had a lot of headache with our code starting from linux rc.d scripts had some weird locale in the env. i've even added a function at startup to check for utf-8, because hunting it down was painful... 16:25:59 -!- cpc26 [cpc26@pilot.trilug.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:20 -!- fitzgen [~fitzgen@li82-33.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:23 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:16 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:33:53 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:15 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:37:20 -!- Brucio-12 [~Brucio-12@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:29 anyone notice the first line of methods being indented to the start of the method name if you add a qualifier 16:42:42 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@204.8.208.229] has joined #lisp 16:42:42 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@204.8.208.229] has quit [Changing host] 16:42:42 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 16:42:42 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:51 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:19 -!- swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:45:42 josemanuel [~josemanue@27.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:50:15 http://jng.imagine27.com/articles/2010-10-07-084756_ruby_subset_implementation.html 16:50:44 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:51:17 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:51:21 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:53:17 timor [~timor@port-92-195-113-155.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:57:14 jmbr [~jmbr@181.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:57:33 lichtblau: fwiw, beirc is horribly broken on clim-gtkairo on darwin 16:57:34 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 16:57:39 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:57:40 which probably means clim-gtkairo is borked 16:58:00 Fade: ... 16:58:03 *p_l|uni* explodes with laugh 16:58:17 p_l|uni: because of how bogus the benchmark is? :) 16:58:23 sykopomp: that too 16:58:44 though it does suggest an avenue to play with :D 16:59:41 not sure 17:00:48 I just thought it was interesting that someobody thought it was worth persuing. 17:00:49 heh 17:00:49 A compiler like this for a 'subset' of Ruby most likely completely bypasses the Ruby language features that make things so painful (its high dynamicity), no? 17:02:15 well, the implementation of fib and fact avoid the obvious recursive algorithms. 17:03:17 sykopomp: what makes Ruby's performance so painful is that quite a large chunk of the world still runs versions older than 1.9 17:04:06 piggy-backing ruby onto a cl native compiler could be a win. 17:04:10 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:25 That'd be neat. Kinda like cl-python. 17:04:38 *slyrus_* wants cl-clojure 17:04:38 mostly inasmuch as it'd allow you to extend ruby systems in CL. 17:04:43 writing native CL is already a win 17:04:44 "Oh, you want python libraries? Here you go. Ruby? Sure, load that up, too. Make them interact." 17:09:07 cool idea 17:09:34 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 17:10:09 p_l|uni: does ruby's garbage collector do simple reference counting? 17:10:40 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:59 Fade: I think the old one yes, no idea about some of the replacements. I know that MacRuby uses Apple's concurrent GC and also flirts with native code generation 17:12:35 *nod* 17:14:11 the thing is, the 1.8 and older Ruby interpreter actually *walks the AST* as an execution method 17:15:02 D: 17:15:46 that's... bizarre. why? 17:15:48 ... Isn't that what CL interpreters do, though? 17:16:11 (Why is this strange?) 17:16:30 well, because it's going to give you ridiculous performance characteristics. 17:16:38 nyef: there's a significant difference on the level of complexity between pure interpreter CL and Ruby's AST walker 17:16:41 i can see advantages in debugging. 17:16:46 but once the code is working... 17:17:00 Fade: it really wasn't designed for speed. 1.9 got bytecoded, though 17:17:15 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:17:15 and JRuby emits JVM bytecode 17:18:04 anyhow, i always thought ruby looked sort of like mexpressions. 17:18:43 Fade: it was kinda what happened when you got a Perl hacker tired of the mess who REALLY liked Smalltalk with a side of lisp 17:19:30 "what would happen if all of CL was subsumed by LOOP" 17:22:13 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-1177754663.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:22:22 -!- xan_ [~xan@i125-201-129-165.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:02 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:17 xan_ [~xan@i60-42-245-68.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:26:46 rfg [~rfg@82.132.136.168] has joined #lisp 17:27:53 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:29:38 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:05 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:30:07 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:30:11 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@pD951FE37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:59 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-74-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:34:01 weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:42 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:43 *sykopomp* wonders how FEXPRs would affect the possibility of phased compilation or whatever it's called. 17:35:17 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:35:40 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:35:45 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:15 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:42:08 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:43:05 -!- Munksgaard_ [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:44:30 stassats: Did you see my fix for cmucl unicode strings confusing emacs and slime? 17:44:39 no 17:45:07 stassats: I sent it to slime-devel. Maybe it didn't work? 17:45:15 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:45:27 most likely i didn't read it 17:45:52 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-94-63.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:07 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:46:09 It's the last message from me. Or I can paste the small changes. 17:46:18 i see it 17:46:38 though i haven't been following that discussion 17:47:02 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:47:43 When I create strings with characters outside the BMP, and slime displays them in the repl, slime crashes. The issue is that emacs and cmucl disagree on the length of the string. 17:48:08 Emacs counts codepoints, cmucl counts utf-16 code units. 17:48:51 i see 17:48:55 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:26 So that's what my change does: Count the codepoints when setting the length in write-message. 17:50:09 though, instead of #±cmu it's better to use definterface/defimplementation facility 17:50:12 speaking of SLIME - does slime use asdf output translations when available? 17:50:21 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:44 Fare: slime does its own output translations. 17:51:06 Fare: last i checked, swank.asd does only one thing: load swank-loader.lisp. the loader does the rest. 17:51:38 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu029.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:51:38 it would be nice if C-c C-k heeded a-o-t 17:52:05 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.240] has joined #lisp 17:52:19 Fare: agreed 17:52:28 well, you can synchronize them 17:52:51 Oh? 17:53:08 no, not really 17:53:34 (: 17:53:35 currently you can only set slime-compile-file-options to '(:fasl-directory "/fasls") 17:53:46 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56:06 ejh [~ejh@ip208-103-38-36.dyn.mintel.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:12 Evil_ [~nick@unaffiliated/evil/x-000666] has joined #lisp 17:57:35 couldn't slime do something like (if-bind (aot (fboundp 'asdf::apply-output-translations)) (funcall aot path) path) ... 17:58:55 it'd better to have an option/variable which you can pass a function doing whatever you want 18:02:07 The slime-asdf contrib is supposed to hook slime into asdf 18:02:38 stassats: Ok. I'll look into that and send an updated version. Thanks. 18:02:57 so the regular stuff could be generalized enough so slime-asdf / swank-asdf can customize it 18:02:59 rtoym: but you have the commit rights! 18:03:27 mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:03:31 stassats: Yeah, but I don't know the proper slime procedure. 18:03:48 stassats: Update changelog, commit changes? 18:03:59 Advertisement: http://sourceforge.net/projects/acheron/ 18:04:34 rtoym: see HACKING 18:04:54 Ragnaroek_: prefixing something like that with "Advertisement: " is a good way to get booted. Next time just say what it is and why you think anyone here might care. 18:05:00 rtoym: yeah, there are two ChangeLogs one in slime/ and one in slime/contrib depending on what you're modifying 18:05:24 Ragnaroek_: what a bad advertisement, it didn't compel me to click that link 18:05:26 hello all. I'm starting a lisp meetup for people in and around Worcester, Massachusetts (by various estimates, the 2nd largest city in New England, and centrally located with good access to highways and trains. http://groups.google.com/group/worcester-lispers 18:05:48 stassats, tcr: Thanks. I'll look at that and try to do the right thing and not screw things up too much. 18:05:54 hmm, ok I'm bad at marketing 18:06:29 mstevens__ [~mstevens@81.187.11.78] has joined #lisp 18:06:29 -!- mstevens__ [~mstevens@81.187.11.78] has quit [Changing host] 18:06:29 mstevens__ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:07:35 rtoym: committing yourself >> any formal mistake 18:07:43 Ragnaroek_: acheron looks like a Java program. Did you consider writing it in Common Lisp? 18:08:01 yes, I did 18:08:09 but that would be too easy 18:08:22 You weren't lying when you said you're bad at marketing. 18:08:23 moah [~gnu@178.1.122.131] has joined #lisp 18:08:32 it was my Master's Thesis, so I wanted something challenging 18:08:45 ouch, university conditions 18:08:47 yeah, you picked the wrong target auditory 18:08:55 lichtblau: You there now? 18:10:14 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:13:14 Ragnaroek_: is real common lisp involved anywhere? 18:13:30 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.110.52] has joined #lisp 18:14:43 it's a kind of subset of CL that's implemented 18:15:01 -!- splittist [~John@121-115.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: bon weekend all] 18:15:18 but that's it 18:16:07 Ragnaroek_: does it have keyword arguments? 18:16:25 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925256853.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:16:29 Wait subsets of CL need keyword arguments? 18:16:50 its has keywords 18:16:52 tcr: You can be a subset and still have keyword arguments! 18:16:55 I thought that omission was explicitly allowed (or was it expl. disallowed? memory faints..) 18:16:59 but not in the arg list 18:17:28 Ragnaroek_: Do you have any example programs? The manual is pretty bare. 18:17:33 I wonder how much a lexically scoped elisp would count formally as a proper subset 18:20:04 the program: http://acheron.defmacro.de/demos/tm/TM.html 18:20:15 the code: http://acheron.defmacro.de/demos/tm/TM.lisp 18:20:50 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:22:35 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 18:22:35 -!- BrandLeeJones_ is now known as BrandLeeJones 18:23:48 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:51 mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:26:43 -!- mstevens__ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:26:55 smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:02 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:28 tcr: the continued suspense is killing me 18:29:29 waddayamean lichtblau 18:29:46 what is suspense ? 18:30:19 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-58-28-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:28 an uncertain cognitive-state ? 18:31:33 err 18:33:01 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens_] 18:33:37 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 18:36:48 -!- enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has left #lisp 18:36:59 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:35 -!- xan_ [~xan@i60-42-245-68.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:41:55 -!- dore_ [~dore@athedsl-203482.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42:15 how do you feed BNF to a yac ? 18:42:22 xan_ [~xan@i60-42-245-68.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 18:43:10 booyaa [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:31 homie: probably by covering it with grass and lichen 18:44:46 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-113-155.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:58 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:45:08 does it moo then ? 18:46:06 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 18:46:23 They've probably got a different onomatopoetic sound than "moo". 18:48:56 dore [~dore@athedsl-201729.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:51:27 mikelb [~bobak@174.47.1.193] has joined #lisp 18:54:02 mcarter_ [~mcarter@217.155.40.178] has joined #lisp 18:54:15 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 18:55:29 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:56:47 freddie111 [~user@150.140.228.158] has joined #lisp 18:56:54 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:58:24 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host97-178-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:58:46 Bronsa [~bronsa@host97-178-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:00:51 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:53 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:02:23 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:03:06 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.189] has joined #lisp 19:07:59 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:09 s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 19:10:17 -!- mikelb [~bobak@174.47.1.193] has quit [Quit: mikelb] 19:10:58 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12:25 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:12:27 -!- dore [~dore@athedsl-201729.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:12:47 xan__ [~xan@i125-201-150-102.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 19:13:00 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:07 dore [~dore@athedsl-192756.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:14:48 i don't get it 19:15:05 -!- mcarter_ [~mcarter@217.155.40.178] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:15:57 -!- xan_ [~xan@i60-42-245-68.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:16:16 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:17:27 mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:17:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-8-190.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 19:17:54 (cadadr '(((a b) (c d)) ((c d) (b a)))) is giving me (b a) which is correct but (find 'a (my-list-like-at-the-left-form) :key #'cadadr) gives me ((c d) (b a)) 19:18:06 why is that ? 19:18:17 -!- ejh [~ejh@ip208-103-38-36.dyn.mintel.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:19:12 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rread] 19:21:02 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:48 key is what it uses to test against, not what is returned as a result 19:22:55 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:24:10 homie: find searches the result amongst the elements of the given list. The key is applied in turn on each of these elements, not on the list as a whole. 19:24:42 If you want to find on the cadadr of the list as a whole you can just write (find 'a (cadadr (my-list-like-at-the-left-form))). 19:24:55 In general, CL doesn't specify useless features. 19:25:33 i have to digest that now... 19:25:37 guh 19:26:43 phrixos [~clarkema@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has joined #lisp 19:27:09 pjb: logical pathnames? 19:27:17 What? 19:27:27 Oh, no, I use them! 19:27:31 They're not useless. 19:27:42 Physical pathnames on the other hand, I could do without :-) 19:27:48 /usr/share/doc/hyperspec/Body/17_ba.htm ?? 19:28:01 Since posix paths are strings... 19:28:22 benny` [~benny@i577A762A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:52 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1240.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:29:24 no, they are sequences of non-zero bytes. 19:29:28 very different. 19:29:50 -!- freddie111 [~user@150.140.228.158] has left #lisp 19:29:56 Logical pathnames are very useful. 19:30:08 they would be if they worked. 19:30:24 That they aren't useful for the things you imagine they should be does not make them less useful than they really are. 19:32:05 homie: (second (second foo)) would be way, way more readable, in my opinion. I never really used those c*r functions beyond car and cdr, though I wouldn't be surprised others do. 19:32:11 Fare: they usually work as specified. As long as you do not go outside of the limits of what is specified. 19:32:34 Fare: it's true that there's a lot of implementation dependant leeway in logical pathnames. But you can avoid it. 19:33:08 -!- mstevens_ [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens_] 19:33:48 The worse offender is Allegro CL which doesn't map (but it is allowed to) upper case logical to lower case physical, so you would have theorically to write a logical pathname translation for each path in Allegro CL. 19:34:41 francogrex [~user@109.130.113.109] has joined #lisp 19:35:14 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:35:14 It is also easy to create in file systems file names that are unaccessible from logical pathnames without an explicit translation. 19:35:23 But this is not the fault of logical pathnames. 19:37:45 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 19:38:17 kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.130] has joined #lisp 19:38:17 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.167.130] has quit [Changing host] 19:38:17 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 19:38:56 -!- Aladore [~Aladore@85.192.211.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:00 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:39:02 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 19:39:22 Explicit translations aren't a bad thing. 19:40:43 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:41:25 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42:07 -!- mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:42:34 Hexstream: i'm always surprised by functions which are not transparent 19:42:55 ak70 [~ak70@user050.195.users.nextweb.net.mt] has joined #lisp 19:43:55 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@27.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 19:43:59 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:45:10 jtrag-AWAY [~jtrageser@c-174-55-74-243.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:15 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-131-140.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:45:41 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:46:45 as if the left-to-right eval rule is disregarded in that case 19:46:53 or a greedy match to the left... 19:46:57 whatever 19:47:12 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:47:40 maybe i should look at more examples... never used find etc.... 19:47:49 or not many sequence operators 19:48:00 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 19:48:21 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host97-178-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:48:47 did slime support sending images to the repl these days? 19:50:29 aha, slime-media :) 19:50:52 -!- xan__ [~xan@i125-201-150-102.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:52:18 xan_ [~xan@i125-201-135-251.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 19:52:53 -!- ak70 [~ak70@user050.195.users.nextweb.net.mt] has left #lisp 19:54:11 -!- booyaa [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 19:55:02 Must be newish, my last slime update doesn't have it. 19:57:13 in contribs 19:57:20 -!- jtrag-AWAY is now known as jtrag 19:57:30 and nothing on lisp-side yet -- it's part of xof's swankr stuff 19:57:56 So definitely more recent than my last slime update. 19:58:23 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:40 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:03:41 hm. emacs's find-image seems to return nil pretty much always for me :/ 20:04:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@i125-201-135-251.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04:28 but opening image files works, so maybe i'm just incompetent 20:06:19 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.113.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:06:20 xan_ [~xan@i220-109-177-165.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 20:07:33 dparoulek [~dparoulek@c-76-120-251-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:55 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:07:56 -!- dore [~dore@athedsl-192756.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:09:28 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-38-205.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:46 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:09:46 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 20:13:07 bashyal [~bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 20:14:01 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-191-33.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 20:15:46 -!- konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:17:39 _joey [~user@115.131.194.22] has joined #lisp 20:18:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-8-190.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:23:11 Hraban [~user@78-21-49-59.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:24:05 -!- silenius [~silenus@dslb-088-075-064-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:06 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:33 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:39 _alexg [al@115.131.194.22] has joined #lisp 20:26:17 <_alexg> I often read statements that one can be more productive writing programs in Lisp 20:26:47 _alexg: that is especially true if you know Lisp. 20:26:57 Well, if you know it way better than anything else. 20:27:12 <_alexg> given everything else being equal 20:27:51 <_alexg> let's say you know two general programming language one of which is lisp, equally 20:28:24 <_alexg> It's interesting statement but I am sceptical 20:28:38 It's not actually interesting. 20:28:42 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:19 tanuzzo [~silvio@15-166.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:29:26 as the world learns more and more about computer language it creates better and better languages, in an approximation of lisp :> 20:29:53 *Hraban* read that somewhere 20:29:56 <_alexg> Lisp has been around forever 20:30:26 <_alexg> and how much has be done in this language? 20:30:42 _alexg: What's the purpose of this inquiry? 20:30:44 <_alexg> not very much outside of academia 20:30:55 and your point is? 20:31:02 <_alexg> just general interest about programming languages 20:31:07 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-170-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:07 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-170-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:32 _alexg: Common Lisp is the greatest and best programming language ever. If anyone says otherwise, they are probably just jealous. 20:31:38 :D 20:31:41 amen 20:32:10 You might get a different answer in different programming language channels, though. 20:32:10 <_alexg> my point is if it was productive it would have been picked up by the community at large naturally 20:32:24 _alexg: I like that one. It's a bit like "If you're so smart, why aren't you rich?" 20:32:48 <_alexg> it has not been and I don't think it will be despite the fact comuputer are getting faster and cheaper 20:33:15 _alexg: basically, if something is technically superior it should always win in the end? 20:33:20 right? 20:33:21 o_O so the excellence of a language depends on its popularity? 20:33:28 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-33.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:33:33 <_alexg> nah, your argument is not valid, we are talking about programming languages 20:33:50 _alexg: what is your argument? 20:33:57 <_alexg> and there are many. it's better to compare apropriate tools 20:34:00 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-33.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:34:34 <_alexg> anyway, I don't think I will get any valid points here :) 20:34:50 _alexg: it's hard to discuss seriously, sorry. 20:34:55 tcr: aroundp 20:35:19 you should try #java 20:35:20 <_alexg> Hraban the programming language is a tool 20:35:25 they'll take you more seriously 20:35:56 and they'll even praise your thought about the most productive programming language winning in the end 20:36:05 so you should probably go there 20:36:14 <_alexg> can you program? 20:36:23 <_alexg> don't worry about people using java 20:36:38 <_alexg> they can use any programming language, java is their bread and butter 20:36:39 we have a bot 20:36:41 <_alexg> :) 20:36:58 turing test not passed 20:37:17 <_alexg> oh yes, you've written a bot in common lisp. Anything else?:) 20:38:39 srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:13 <_alexg> guaqua do you realise that a deceptive motto 'productive programming' is there for a reason?:) 20:39:20 <_alexg> I doubt 20:39:29 There is loads of cobol programs running on mainframes, maybe it is the best 20:40:02 <_alexg> it has been in the past 20:40:13 <_alexg> but now it's only being supported 20:44:00 <_alexg> Xach why is it hard? 20:44:34 <_alexg> it's not difficult to be naive and self-indulgent 20:44:36 <_alexg> :) 20:44:51 -!- wareya [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:45:13 _alexg: It's a question asked over and over and over again in various forms. It takes patience to take it seriously each time. 20:45:15 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:45:16 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:45 wareya [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:50 *Xach* is not patient at the moment 20:45:51 <_alexg> I see 20:46:00 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:46:11 <_alexg> This is the first time I am discussing it 20:47:11 I don't see what you're trying to provoke here 20:47:12 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:47:15 Would you agree on that you're generally probably more productive doing Java than assembly? 20:47:29 <_alexg> I looked into the language after installed emacs lol. 20:47:45 <_alexg> why are refering to me? 20:47:53 <_alexg> it's not about me. you see 20:47:57 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-191-33.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:00 please, go away 20:48:22 <_alexg> It's about humanity refusing to use the most productive language :) 20:48:32 _alexg, that's one of those points that aren't valid, yes. 20:48:38 lispm [~joswig@g224046078.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:40 -!- hypercube31 [~hypercube@66.90.18.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:48:50 We can say "one" if you want to. 20:48:53 <_alexg> exactly, which point is not valid? 20:49:39 The one dodging the question by asking why it refers to you. 20:50:26 in other news... so... Xach, when will we be popping the champagne corks? 20:50:27 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 20:50:48 *_alexg* is getting an idea bout lisp community :) 20:51:02 gz__ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:08 _alexg, Out of interest what in you opinion is the most productive language 20:51:14 you/your 20:51:34 <_alexg> It consists of people from academia, enthusiast and clueless. The last group is the majority I guess 20:51:51 The point here is realizing that different languages have varying levels of abstraction. If you can agree on that you would probably be more productive doing Ruby/Python/Java, or even C, over assembly, then there might be a slight chance that there are languages out there that are even better than the ones you know. 20:51:57 _alexg, we are getting an idea about you 20:52:06 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:52:09 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:52:10 -!- gz__ is now known as gz 20:52:30 troll uses poor insult 20:52:32 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 20:52:34 it's not very effective. 20:52:50 the Mercedes S-Class is one of the best cars, but somehow few people drive it. Why is that? 20:52:56 It's effective as long as you guys keep talking to him. 20:53:10 *Hraban* is done talking, bbl 20:54:32 <_alexg> tvaalen what on earth are you talking about? 20:55:00 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:55:14 _alexg, what's your point of being here? 20:55:16 <_alexg> good programmers can program in any language 20:55:19 <_alexg> understand? 20:55:29 can you write Lisp? 20:55:37 never ops around when you need them 20:55:48 <_alexg> I never had a burning desire to write in Lisp 20:55:54 why not? 20:56:02 <_alexg> why would I ? 20:56:06 unproductive troll 20:56:14 a good programmer can program in any language 20:56:15 impedance mismatch 20:56:22 he's pretty bad 20:56:25 Lisp is a great programming language 20:56:26 <_alexg> I wrote programs in haskell in my undergraduate years 20:56:27 unproductive troll is a bad program 20:56:32 he's on his 3rd year in the university 20:56:32 <_alexg> I used Miranda 20:56:37 <_alexg> let me recall? 20:56:43 <_alexg> R and SAS 20:56:47 but why not try Lisp? 20:56:50 <_alexg> Oh yes, Java was mong those too 20:56:58 nikodemus: need something? 20:57:08 <_alexg> guys, you are telling me I am insulting you? 20:57:10 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o slyrus_ 20:57:11 _alexg, there is a great book by Peter Seibel you could read? 20:57:19 successful troll is successful. 20:57:22 <_alexg> You insulting yourself with such comments 20:57:23 about Practical Common Lisp 20:57:29 <_alexg> lmao 20:57:36 sykopomp: :( 20:57:44 grow up and come back in a few years 20:57:58 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 20:57:59 I never really noticed how amazing lisp 20:58:02 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:58:11 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:24 -!- slyrus_ has set mode +b *!*@115.131.94.22 20:58:26 guaqua: well, when was the last time taking the bait worked in your favor? :) 20:58:26 I tried it once before but I didn't take the time to really appreciate it. This time around, it's like a whole new light. 20:58:28 -!- _alexg [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has been kicked from #lisp by slyrus_ (_alexg) 20:58:34 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-191-33.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 20:58:36 slyrus_: lovely 20:58:39 _alexg [al@115.131.194.22] has joined #lisp 20:58:49 somebody might want to check my ban syntax 20:58:58 it's been a while 20:59:04 slyrus_: looks good 21:13:37 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:37 21:13:37 -!- names: ccl-logbot attila_lendvai Ralith zomgbie pdo gz lispm V-ille wareya srolls Fullma incandenza Hraban _joey guaqua stis Beetny bgs100 xan_ lisppaste varjag benny s1gma_ redline6561 b-man_ mega1 smanek pierrep vu3rdd moah Evil_ gravicappa kclifton hohoho SegFaultAX weirdo Kenjin Ragnaroek_ rfg jmbr mstevens Blkt Guthur vandemar Joreji daniel__ peterhil humasect dto tama_ gonzojive ASau roygbiv LiamH tcr clop Dawgmatix fiveop milanj lonstein lemoinem ikki Xach 21:13:37 -!- names: legumbre_ Fare jmcphers nyef ska`` froydnj Salamander_ serichsen Yuuhi JuanDaugherty billstclair pjb mbohun arbscht urandom__ H4ns billitch pavelludiq nikodemus ost` mrSpec dfox Nshag SCVirus angavrilov nowhereman ``Erik svr yakov ehu deepfire rdd johs pok dborba The_Jon_Smith abend cataska dys specbot franki^ fihi09 rbarraud MultiMind Obfuscate mornfall austinh ivan4th s0ber AntiSpamMeta xinming Odin- minion jsoft_ cods qebab debiandebian seejay` kuwabara 21:13:37 -!- names: boysetsf1og srcerer cmm- dostoyev1ky pkhuong_ Adamant slyrus__ sellout djinni` naryl baley Buganini stepnem Dodek mathrick Kaes rootzlevel pchrist_ super__ katofiad setheus Quadrescence kleppari Intensity emma hdurer`` c|mell chandler johanbev_ spiaggia lusory skalawag BrianRice svk_ Guest22034 Anarch Euthydemus hugod TomJ lnostdal fmu housel sepi vinnana rtoym quasisane derrida beach sonnym tychoish logia_th Modius mulander yan_ eno Tristam cmeow sigjuice 21:13:37 -!- names: Xof cow-orker fe[nl]ix clog prip Pepe_ kloeri kmc nasloc__ krl krappie_ petter` sbahra Axioplase dmiles_afk kvsari Tasunteld gds mal__ Borbus erk_ scode holycow tomaw foom bfein lichtblau sie Tordek schmrkc sykopomp vs marienz ineiros stettberger tic mgr Adrinael zeroish Aisling starseeker bzzbzz_ l_a_m hdurer_ mtd drakko antoszka hohum Fade cpt_nemo felipe qsun tessier vsync fda314925 guther bobbysmith007 codemonkeyx delYsid eli eldragon Draggor rotty 21:13:38 -!- names: koollman boyscared yahooooo @slyrus_ ramus Kovensky Khisanth _3b` Dazhbog OliverUv m4thrick antifuchs gnooth CrazyEddy jsnell cYmen ecraven aoh blitz_ p_l rullie `micro joshe sid3k Bucciarati Yamazaki-kun joast turbo24prg acieroid hypno nuba rapacity luis zbigniew dose lharc tvaalen ianmcorvidae albino _3b tokenrove PissedNumlock herbieB_ [df] galdor dcrawford nullman spacebat Zhivago jpanest amaron jrockway 21:14:59 -!- roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 21:17:17 -!- svr [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:17:26 -!- rfg [~rfg@82.132.136.168] has left #lisp 21:18:05 svr1 [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 21:19:12 sdqali [~sdqali@180.151.32.194] has joined #lisp 21:20:04 Sikander [~user@83.86.244.159] has joined #lisp 21:20:16 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:23 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:26:41 -!- sdqali [~sdqali@180.151.32.194] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3900, sources date: 20100125, built on: 2010-07-07 00:42:53 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:26:47 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.110.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:49 hmm... whom do I contact if I've forgotten my common-lisp.net trac user id/password 21:28:22 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 21:28:40 Hello, lispm! How are you? 21:28:55 finy, and you? 21:28:58 fine 21:29:18 lispm: You missed the Hamburg Lisp meeting. 21:29:28 yes, I was not in Hamburg 21:30:12 lispm: The next meeting is planned for 2010-11-24. :) 21:30:23 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:45 same problem 21:31:05 lispm: work? 21:31:33 yes, usually tue-thu out of town 21:31:49 travelling three days a week 21:32:15 lispm: Is it Lisp work, at least? :) 21:32:27 no, sadly 21:32:33 :/ 21:32:41 it's interesting, but more managing, not programming 21:33:34 yan_: (loop for i from 1 below limit summing (if (or (zerop (mod i 3)) (zerop (mod i 5))) i 0)) 21:33:41 I also need to get a really portable MacBook for Lisp programming while travelling ... 21:34:07 waiting for a new MacBook Air to be released......... 21:34:08 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:34:26 Why specifically a macbook? 21:34:37 that's what I like 21:34:52 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:34:57 Fair enough. 21:35:08 lispm: What is more limiting, the size or the battery life? 21:35:31 -!- xan_ [~xan@i220-109-177-165.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:35:38 currently the MacBook Air has not enough memory and relatively poor battery life 21:35:38 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:36:00 I want to keep LispWorks and some other stuff running, I hate restarting of programs ;-) 21:36:07 lispm: How much memory does the Air have? 21:36:12 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 21:36:13 max 2GB I think 21:36:31 not enough for mail, office, Lisp and some other stuff 21:36:57 there are better laptops from other manufacturers already 21:37:18 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:37:22 also kind of cool the idea of running CCL on a small ARM machine 21:37:26 lispm: I have 2 GB, and I am running SBCL, Emacs, Firefox, and Thunderbird in parallel without problems. 21:37:31 but that does not run my office stuff 21:37:41 xan_ [~xan@i220-109-177-165.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:37:45 lispm: My office is Emacs ;). 21:37:54 Mmm. I have 1 GB, and all that save Thunderbird. 21:37:57 serichsen, that's true - but I need some other stuff 21:38:06 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:12 yes, Emacs is fun 21:38:15 -!- Guest22034 [~user@nat/google/x-briyyhuqjwaldcwy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:18 with org mode 21:38:19 V-ille1 [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:38:26 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:39:03 (The two problems I have with my netbook are the small screen size and the small amount of memory. If I had to choose a third problem it'd be the size of the hard drive bay.) 21:39:28 the keyboard is okay for you? 21:39:32 North of five hours of battery life, including multiple SBCL builds, is nice, though. 21:39:45 lispm: I guess that stumpwm also uses less resources than the fancy Mac GUI. ;) 21:39:49 Yeah, pretty close to full size, if not full size. 21:40:19 Okay, the third problem is actually playing videos after using the external display connector. 21:40:24 Microsoft office, Keynote, Pages, Versions, Safari, Aperture, ... all that takes lots of memory 21:40:53 five hours battery life is minimum, you get ten already 21:41:12 I guess. I get about seven, normally. 21:41:31 seven is already quite good 21:41:46 then it gets really usable 21:41:53 -!- V-ille1 [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 21:42:01 I don't know that I'd get all seven while doing frequent SBCL builds, but... 21:42:17 my iPad with Wlan and UMTS/3G gets near nine hours 21:42:20 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:42:54 plus the Laptop should be Intel driven and 64bit 21:43:03 for LispWorks and the lispm emulator 21:43:25 *nyef* hugs his N450. Intel, and 64bit. 21:43:30 nice 21:43:48 dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has joined #lisp 21:44:09 I get about ninety minutes of battery life :'( 21:44:30 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-139-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:46:24 serichsen, how was the meeting? 21:48:16 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925256853.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:54 *Xach* hypes the hype 21:50:04 I need to port Quicklisp to Genera then 21:52:51 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:53:27 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:11 lispm: all it takes is a couple defmethods 21:55:36 okay ;-) 21:57:28 lispm: nice. Lutz and Jens were there, and someone (Andreas?) who works at BaSe with Lisp. 21:58:02 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:59:19 froydnj: I think Xof was asking about something like this earlier, but how hard would it be to add SSL streams to ironclad? 21:59:21 gilbert? 21:59:29 serichsen, was that Gilbert? 22:00:03 lispm: No, but he works with Gilbert. 22:00:11 ah, cool 22:02:22 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:02:26 lispm: In other news, I finally made my exams. All that is missing now is a diploma thesis, and I'll talk to the Prof. on monday. :) 22:02:51 got some work also? 22:03:19 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:03:49 lispm: Well, the thesis is work... I think I'll get some rudimentary pay, too. 22:04:37 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:05:49 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:47 so, you'll start on the thesis soon? Lisp involved? 22:06:55 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:07:44 lispm: Heh, it's chemistry :). Perhaps I can sneak in some coding into the evaluation processes of the experiments ;). 22:08:48 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-186-77.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:09:12 timack [~tim@hlfx53-2b-76.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 22:10:21 lispm: As far as I can see, I am already quite exotic as a Linux/LaTeX/gnuplot user there, but some of the electron microscopes run through Unix boxes (Solaris, I think). 22:12:09 mcclim plots 22:13:47 serichsen: cool. you can help with my chemicl library then :) 22:13:48 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:13:49 there are also some other people generating PDFs or graphics files 22:13:59 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-249-154.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 22:14:28 lispm: I have seen cl-pdf and cl-typesetting, but I am not sure how usable they are. 22:14:57 slyrus_: What kind of library? 22:15:37 representing molecules, atoms, bonds, etc... 2-d structure drawing, parsing, etc... 22:16:30 slyrus_: Including automatic layout from topological data? 22:16:45 2-d layout? 22:17:11 if so, yes 22:17:25 slyrus_: I meant that you have a list of atoms and bonds and automatically decide the 2-d layout. 22:17:32 yeah, exactly 22:17:37 Is there any other motivation to USE a package other than to save typing? 22:17:54 slyrus_: And in Lisp? 22:18:03 heh 22:18:18 well, yes, although, and I hate to admit it here, there are actually two projects... 22:18:19 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:18:20 austinh: to create a custom language 22:18:27 chemicl in common lisp and chemiclj in clojure 22:18:39 austinh: the motivation is to avoid name collision when using libraries or programs made by other people (or yourself at a different time). 22:18:51 i was hoping that chemiclj could give me a leg up by using CDK, but that has its own crappy 2d drawing routines 22:19:22 austinh: this is a big problem in emacs, since you tend to load a lot of code written by different people. If two emacs package define a function with the same name (and purposely doing about the same thing) you get some very strange bugs. 22:19:27 slyrus_: Ah. Well, I am very interested in the CL side :). 22:19:30 -!- SCVirus [~B234651@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:37 pjb: That sounds like a reason to use packages, but not to use USE. 22:20:13 Well, indeed, USEing a package is to save typing. 22:20:27 austinh: there's one use although that is meaningful. 22:20:30 austinh: if you use a package, all exported/imported symbols look like internal symbols, the number of directly available names make up a 'language' 22:20:45 austinh: to change the language of a program. 22:21:10 serichsen: I noticed that the 2-d layout stuff isn't online. I'll fix that. the chemicl stuff is at: http://git.cyrusharmon.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=chemicl.git;a=summary 22:21:15 austinh: for example, you could have a source such as (defun f (x) (+ (* x x) (* 2 x) 1)) 22:21:20 I'll move that and the 2d-drawing stuff to github soon 22:21:29 slyrus_: woo 22:21:43 austinh: if you load it in a package where you've USEd CL, and call (f 2) you get 9. 22:21:53 lispm: How does dropping a package qualifier make a symbol part of a 'language'? 22:21:53 slyrus_: Thanks, I'll take a look at it. :) 22:22:39 austinh: but you could load it in a package where you've USEd another package, such as SYMBOLIC-LISP, and calling (f '(+ y 1)) you would get (+ (* (+ y 1) (+ y 1)) (* 2 (+ y 1)) 1) or even better. 22:22:56 austinh: in the source code it looks like a simple symbol provided, you can also shadow built-in stuff an change/enhance it 22:23:16 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:23:18 austinh: for a more mundate example, have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html 22:23:21 I think I understand packages and the namespacing issues fairly well. That's not really what I'm asking about. 22:23:30 -!- tama_ [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:24:13 lispm: like the CL provided in the package "CL", you can have "AUSTINH-CL" and program with that, while behind the back it imports functionality from various packages 22:24:45 austinh: and for a practical example: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/common-lisp/html.lisp where I load html401.lisp. html401.lisp is loaded also in another package where the macros are defined otherwise, to parse HTML instead of generating. 22:24:53 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:15 I've just been rearranging a lot of code lately, and since I've USE'd several other packages, it's often a hassle trying to track down if I am actually using any of the symbols from those packages anymore, of if in the course of my refactoring, I've severed that tie. 22:25:37 austinh: often one starts to program with a new package, say, USING 'graphics', 'math' and 'time' - that's then the language for the problem 22:25:44 austinh: what is meant here, is that there's an indirection that is implemented by USEing a package, so that the symbols read are not absolute, but relative to the current package. 22:26:07 austinh: you should write a tool to check that. It should not be too hard. 22:26:33 austinh: that's something that one needs to keep in mind 22:26:49 Just define all your package (load "packages.lisp"), and then read all your code (no need to compile or load it), and check where all the symbols in the code sexps come from. 22:27:11 austinh: I often avoid :use and use the colon syntax instead with the package written down 22:27:13 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 22:28:04 and it's annoying when you USE a package and then down the road you clobber some other symbol that you didn't realize you also imported, so then you have to shadow. It just seemed odd to me, and I thought I might be approaching this wrong. 22:28:14 yes 22:28:27 lispm: this is good to track package use, or to avoid collisions, but it's an "absolute addressing". 22:28:47 So, more and more, I keep thinking I'd rather using the colon qualifier to prevent these issues. 22:28:54 austinh: I don't think anything is wrong. 22:29:03 austinh: perhaps you have packages that export too many symbols? 22:29:13 pjb: somehow, one could use packages that import these symbols and use neutral names for those packages 22:29:22 In that case you could use instead (:import-from :package :sym1 :sym2) 22:29:39 austinh: that's been my impression too 22:29:40 lispm: that's a good idea indeed. 22:29:42 austinh: I do that too, it makes the code more readable, but can make it harder to maintain 22:29:51 austinh: joe marshall wrote about it but I don't really understand what he meant 22:29:55 I've almost felt like by USE'ing packages, I've given up the benefits of namespacing. 22:30:07 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:30:15 austinh: he wrote that the application code should never use package prefixes but I think he might have had a particular style in mind 22:30:31 austinh: I think that we should not abuse packages. They're not made for fine grained modularity. 22:30:40 austinh: one package per library or per application. 22:30:41 austinh: it is used for portable software, where one carefully crafts portable languages, like CLIM-LISP 22:30:44 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:31:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@i220-109-177-165.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:31:34 also another reason to think about hierarchical packages 22:31:37 *Xach* only recently learned that you could import internal symbols from other packages 22:32:20 I appreciate all your comments and feedback. I feel like systems and packages are some of the more elusive topics in Lisp development. 22:32:23 xan_ [~xan@i58-89-95-185.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:32:40 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:33:38 pjb: one package per app, really? This raises the other issue that I'm having trouble with. 22:34:46 My app has been growing and becoming more cumbersome, so I've been wanting to break things up into more packages just to wrangle it better through encapsulation and more obvious interfaces. 22:35:00 *Xach* uses multiple packages per app 22:35:12 tims [~user@216.148.97.254] has joined #lisp 22:35:24 Well, it depend on the size of the app obviously, but mostly, yes. 22:35:26 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:35:27 -!- tims is now known as Guest11999 22:36:17 What you definitely do not want to do is to define a package per class... 22:36:52 Zer [~Zer@cpe-24-166-80-78.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:28 the world might end 22:37:29 pjb: LOL, now who would want such an absurdity? ;o) 22:37:58 well, there is always CL-USER ;-) 22:38:04 having one package per file is an interesting experiment. 22:38:17 serichsen: well, they have that in other OO languages. 22:38:25 "encapsulation" they call it. 22:38:50 jso [~user@ip68-111-169-131.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:33 I usually have about one package per file ;P I like to have each file very topical. And I used to like it this way, though recently I've started recognizing I do go a bit overkill, in a few cases I have one package for a less-than-50-lines file, that's starting to get a bit ridiculous. I'm thinking of merging some files/packages. But overall, I really like having explicit dependencies. 22:39:33 sykopomp: That reminds me of the blog of some chemist "Things I won't work with". 22:39:53 serichsen: how come? 22:40:23 sykopomp: that "interesting experiment" is something I would not like to be near to. ;) 22:40:35 sykopomp: I might be exaggerating a bit. ;) 22:40:38 serichsen: Yes, I got that. I'm wondering why. 22:40:48 Have a look, for example, at http://github.com/Hexstream/flexiconf/blob/master/package.lisp 22:40:56 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:41:23 jesus 22:42:25 Too bad CL doesn't have a workable module system. 22:43:00 The good news: I developed my own style! The bad news: It may be a bad style! 22:43:12 foom: what are you trying to do ? 22:43:31 Hexstream: clearly, the Lisp way is to blob an entire language and all its components into a single namespace ;) 22:43:36 sometimes I feel that 'workable module system' is kind of difficult to achieve 22:43:37 -!- jso [~user@ip68-111-169-131.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:43:41 in lisp it is 22:43:44 that's clearly package overkill . 22:43:50 because of the stupidity of symbols 22:43:53 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:44:01 foom: can you be more specific? 22:44:36 -!- Intensity [iDkvzSRkOj@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Quit: Intensity] 22:44:56 -!- amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:02 amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has joined #lisp 22:45:32 At first I had very big systems in one package, but I found I sometimes had issues with loading order of files because of implicit, hidden dependencies and stuff. 22:45:43 I like to think about dependencies explicitly. 22:45:48 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:46:00 "Find the dependencies -- and eliminate them." 22:46:03 Hexstream: why not specify the dependencies on the file level 22:46:06 Xach: "application code should never use package prefixes" -- Why do you think he said that? 22:46:07 ? 22:46:08 Hexstream: mostly from macros. It's also advised to put macros in a separate file called macros.lisp and loaded and compiled before the rest. 22:46:14 lispm: I do that, too. 22:46:45 pjb: not sure if want 22:46:47 probably do not want 22:46:51 Identifiers shouldn't directly have values (symbol-value, symbol-function, symbol-alist, etc). That just makes things difficult, and confusing. 22:46:57 Hexstream: That's a lot of packages. 22:46:57 Hexstream: what's the package grouping do? 22:47:16 austinh: I don't really know. 22:47:30 austinh: he had a very lengthy post with diagrams! i'll try to find it for you. 22:47:42 thanks. I tried to search for it, but found nothing. 22:47:44 schmrkc: It imports all the external symbols of the named packages and reexports them all. 22:48:47 gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:57 Intensity [k8GwccVGbN@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 22:49:20 pjb: The suggestion to have one separate package for macros seems odd to me. If you have a big system, seems to me your macros will be clearly related to separate parts of the code. Lumping all macros together look like a weird way to go about things, that possibly doesn't "scale", in the sense that the bigger your system, the bigger your macros file will get. 22:49:26 austinh: perhaps because using package prefixes in code gives you more places to look for dependencies?... 22:49:31 I mean, one separate *file* for macros. 22:50:00 I've seen some nasty-huge utils.lisp files. :\ 22:50:12 sometimes it is more than one file for macros 22:50:15 I can imagine separate macros.lisp files growing similarly, and becoming just as unmanageable, if not more. 22:50:54 sykopomp: No, no. What I'm doing is having macros wherever they belong, not having macros-only files. 22:51:10 Hexstream: I'm commenting ot pjb's suggestion :) 22:51:27 Hexstream: not a separate package, but a separate file. 22:51:45 pjb: Hexstream: I mean, one separate *file* for macros. 22:52:05 Yes. Of course, that could be several files, if you have a big system with different parts. 22:52:07 hmm... no drewc. where's that parser library he was working on again? 22:52:13 slyrus_: smug 22:52:23 yeah, that one 22:52:45 Oh dear. Does that make drewc the smug lisp weenie? 22:52:48 http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/smug.html 22:53:01 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-128-168.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:53:06 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-170-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:53:11 yeah, googling for smug lisp doesn't turn up what I'm looking for :) 22:53:36 slyrus_: Can I clone that chemicl? 22:53:38 slyrus_: I was getting the link. Sorry. :) 22:54:02 the "download and install" section is pretty thin :) 22:54:19 serichsen: yes, you should be able to. or you can wait for me to move it to github, either way. 22:54:24 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-170-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:32 *Xach* found it! 22:57:42 oh man, i commented several packages in or out for my .dot files for each implementation 22:57:51 austinh: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d23a942023da202c 22:58:00 thanks 22:58:03 some packages just don't work with some implementations 22:58:58 slyrus_: I think I'll wait then, I am too stupid to find out which link to pass to git clone now. 22:59:27 git clone git://cyrusharmon.org/pub/git/cl-bio.git 22:59:32 whoops 22:59:34 wrong repo 22:59:48 oh, I see... it's missing the clone URL. sorry about that! 23:00:07 skalawag` [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:40 -!- Guest11999 [~user@216.148.97.254] has left #lisp 23:01:30 hrmm... somethings wrong here. darn. 23:01:58 http://paste.lisp.org/+2H08 23:02:02 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:02:12 all installed with quicklisp 23:02:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-6-221.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:03:02 wbooze: how long does it take to start up? 23:03:28 not much a few seconds like a half minute, not even a half minute i would say 23:04:34 serichsen: ok, should be fixed now 23:05:01 slyrus_: OK, I have it. :) Thanks! 23:05:10 let me know how it goes! 23:06:40 http://paste.lisp.org/+2H09 features list 23:07:53 slyrus_: I shall. 23:11:26 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:29 Xach: That post was largely over my head, but I gathered that he advocating against explicit package qualifiers because he doesn't think you should constrain a symbol to a specific external package, so that you may vary how that symbol is provided (through some configuration system, for example). 23:11:38 http://paste.lisp.org/+2H0A packages list 23:13:54 -!- skalawag` is now known as skalawag 23:14:12 -!- Sikander [~user@83.86.244.159] has quit [Quit: Time to sleep...] 23:14:58 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.230.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:14:58 http://paste.lisp.org/+2H0B modules list 23:15:37 homie: Maybe you should "Annotate this paste" instead... 23:16:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:16:20 Xach: It makes sense that you should think of a method more abstractly than a specific implementation, but in my case, I am importing symbols with very general identifiers like "CONNECT" and I need the package qualifier to help describe them and prevent them from cluttering the namespace. 23:16:20 annotate ? 23:16:39 you mean colorize ? 23:17:01 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:17:16 what is annotation for ? 23:18:10 there is not much to explain for those, they go in combi with the other pastes i put here 23:18:47 the overall state of the 3 impl with the quicklisp packages, some of which are commented out in order to get a smooth upstart of the image 23:19:35 s/image/images/ 23:20:16 homie: Annotating will add to an existing paste, not create a new one 23:20:22 homie: It's often easier to read. 23:20:38 smanek [~smanek@c-98-214-241-164.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:48 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:50 jup, ok yes i see what it is now 23:21:18 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:21:48 i didn't use paste sites that much earlier, so i don't know every functionality... 23:21:55 Now you know. 23:22:01 jup ok thanks 23:25:45 homie: Sorry, I forgot that people don't read on the internet, unlike me ;P 23:25:56 -!- moah [~gnu@178.1.122.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:25:57 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:26:02 slyrus_: The documentation of class 'atom refers to a molecule slot, which I cannot find. 23:26:08 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:20 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:26:23 oh, that may have gone away. I think the docs are out of date. 23:27:39 especially the *modules* part makes me think 23:28:11 if it was a measure for the modularity of code, lisp would be overly monolithic 23:28:24 so what is a modules again then ? 23:28:29 err module 23:28:47 how does it relate to package ? 23:29:05 homie: it doesn't. 23:29:11 which is the sub category of which ? 23:29:17 or am i wrong here totally 23:29:24 serichse` [~user@f048036220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:29:26 oh it doesn't ? 23:29:37 homie: only coincidentally 23:30:33 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:31:10 -!- serichse` is now known as serichsen` 23:32:30 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@pD951FE37.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914120618]] 23:32:38 -!- serichsen [~user@f048037175.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:32:40 slyrus_: Defining :aromatic as a bond order of 1.5 is a bit strange from a chemical perspective. :) 23:33:05 yeah, that's bogus 23:35:28 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.60.246] has joined #lisp 23:37:49 slyrus_: The name is "Hückel". :) 23:40:05 yes, it is, isn't it? 23:40:10 thanks 23:40:41 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:41:08 I got bogged down in the more arcane aspects of SMILES parsing (double bond configurations, chiral ring openings/closings, etc...) and moved over to clojure and fnparse for a while. 23:41:31 I'd like to rewrite the SMILES parser with drewc's smug, but I'm not sure it's ready for it yet 23:41:40 smug smiles 23:42:21 also, I found the immutable data-model of clojure led to a rather nice API, which is a bit different from what I have here 23:44:40 -!- xan_ [~xan@i58-89-95-185.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:46:29 xan_ [~xan@i219-167-153-216.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:48:16 slyrus_: What do you want to output finally? 23:49:50 Xach: Thanks, that whole thread was very educational and just what I needed to read. 23:50:25 austinh: i hope the CL standard hasn't moved out from under it... 23:50:41 *Xach* is still a little weirded out by articles moving so quickly into the past 23:51:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:52:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@i219-167-153-216.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:54:13 Heh. "SIN and COS but not TAN because some claimed it was computable from the other two"? Do I remember rightly that $\Sin\Theta^2+\Cos\Theta^2=1$? 23:54:24 xan_ [~xan@i219-167-153-216.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:54:41 serichsen`: output? I guess I want something of a general purpose library where I can read/write/manipulate molecules, compute on them, draw them, etc... 23:55:01 Xach: Well, I think I understand the issues a lot better now. I think it makes sense for me to use package qualified symbols for other people's packages in most cases, but Marshall presented a compelling argument not do so in your own code under certain circumstances. 23:56:34 nyef: If you set the parentheses right, yes. 23:57:00 Right, right. Square the result of the functions, not the arguments. 23:58:12 But, then again, if the argument only stands for the code that you control, then you could probably get away with other methods to vary the implementations, like he says to Peter Seibel here: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/8d7f0082e353c0f8 23:58:20 neomage [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:24 nyef: (= 1 (+ (square (sin theta)) (square (cos theta))))