00:00:35 ok, so I can't even write a compiler, or understand how lisp works in machine language :( 00:00:48 I was just joking! 00:01:03 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 00:01:35 -!- kmc [clozure@clozure-DD47715A.mycingular.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 00:01:51 *Hraban* sighs and has another go at his lisp/dragon books 00:02:53 Hraban: why bother with that stuff? 00:03:13 because I'm obsessed with understanding how things move at the metal level? 00:03:29 or just above that, for that matter 00:03:36 Ah. 00:03:40 hi all 00:03:48 good morning :) 00:03:52 Hraban: I found Movitz an interesting read. 00:04:12 "lisp based operating systems"? 00:05:13 oh, it's an os, not a writer >.> 00:05:40 It includes a compiler. 00:06:53 hmm 00:06:59 *Hraban* downloads the pdf on the site 00:07:21 Download the source, too. 00:07:35 mpage -4 and a 3-ring binder and you've got something to peruse in your spare time. 00:08:15 Hraban: the DISASSEMBLE command in your lisp might entertain you too :) for finding how stuff works on the "assembly level" 00:08:44 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.242] has joined #lisp 00:08:47 Xach: Or just copy it to your Kindle, depending on how much you hate trees ;) 00:09:32 Gotta make it seem hip for the kids. 00:10:18 -!- navigator [~navigator@p54892B26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:18 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:40 schmrkc: well, that does give me pseudo-assembly, and that I can understand, but I don't know how the REPL works, or rather, how it remembers symbol names and such 00:13:46 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:47 minion: tell Hraban about LiSP 00:14:47 Hraban: direct your attention towards LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 00:15:24 ironically, i just opened that book :> 00:15:26 hmm. are there any open source projects for embedded/uC lisp environments? 00:15:40 i think "embedded common lisp" isn't quite what i want. 00:16:24 Hraban: pseudo-assembly? what lisp are you using_ 00:16:31 clisp 00:16:33 oh 00:16:48 well, it didn't look like x86 opcodes :> 00:16:54 Hraban: other lisps combine to native. clisp uses bytecode and runs that in a virtual machine :) 00:17:03 ah, that explains 00:18:29 Hraban: sbcl and ccl are popular alternatives to clisp :) 00:20:02 *Hraban* tries them out 00:21:10 ahh, yes, there it is 00:23:10 :) 00:25:01 *Hraban* has to re-write his keyboard again 00:25:11 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-219-167.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:25:32 my pinkies can't handle the shift + 9|0 combinations :/ 00:26:06 left hand shift with some other finger. right hand () 00:26:17 I like to map () on the homerow 00:26:20 Hraban: You must setup your environment so that opening a parenthese, closing it and then putting the cursor inside is ONE keypress. 00:26:24 i just move [] to () and vice-versa 00:26:37 that way i automatically use my index/middle fingers 00:27:17 j + left foot = ( 00:27:20 I set things up so that my right shift is F32, and then I map F32 to a keyboard macro that does this in emacs. 00:27:28 *Hraban* drew a plan for a better keyboard layout but it would probably cost too much to have it built :( 00:27:54 redirecting the most commonly used keys to the most powerful 3 fingers 00:27:55 I should mention that I use a typematrix 2030 and I can press all modifiers with my thumbs... 00:28:04 Isn't that what xmodmap/xkeycaps is for? 00:28:15 ahh yes, that was the program :3 thanks 00:28:30 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-28-36.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:28:32 *rtoym* gave up remapping keys long ago. When he had to use some other keyboard, he couldn't type at all. 00:29:28 rtoym: Yes, I used it to make that configuration possible... 00:29:35 Hexstream: Your point about enabling auto close parenthesis got me thinking. I might as well map () both on j, and use k for something else. I never type ) anyway:) 00:29:37 or almost 00:29:48 r4v5: how small a lisp do you want? 00:30:09 the gambit guys are making very small lisps for very small processors. 00:30:15 Tabstar [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 00:30:33 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:35 -!- Tabstar is now known as Guest51879 00:31:43 -!- Guest51879 [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Client Quit] 00:32:07 Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 00:32:21 -!- Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Client Quit] 00:32:32 there we go! 00:35:03 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:35:03 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:11 Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 00:36:27 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:26 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:40:34 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B80F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:43:13 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-58-28-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:48 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 00:44:47 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:44:57 Hum. It appears that emacs wraps lines to 70 characters by default. Always thought it was 80... 00:46:08 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:01 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:52:43 -!- Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has left #lisp 00:53:50 180 would be nicer :) 00:55:29 Easy to change the fill-column. 00:55:58 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu307.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:56:26 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:56:32 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 00:57:03 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 01:01:02 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:08:34 no :( 01:15:05 Hum. Documenting code is pretty fun after all. I always imagined it would be a sad chore. I guess I just never saw the utility of documenting because I was working alone and the code IS the documentation. But now that I'm open-sourcing my attitudes are a-changin' ;P Moral of the story: documentation is not for me, it's for OTHERS. Weird, but I find that motivating. 01:17:21 I found it helped me organize and streamline things. I was trying to get skippy documented, and when I got to the part about color tables, I realized after I wrote about them that nobody except me would put up with such a convoluted interface. 01:17:42 I never thought about it until I had to describe it in prose. 01:19:32 Xach: Yes, I'm realizing that, too. There's lots of problems I intuitively but consciously didn't think were problems in my codebases, because they were simply not relevant since I was the only one sifting through. But open-sourcing really shines a different light and now I want to modularize and document and do all these kinds of stuff properly. 01:19:32 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:27 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:45 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:21:24 -!- Kaer [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:22:14 As an example, for all the stuff I open-sourced I now have one separate repo for each project and I commit in a pretty sensible way, generally one logical change per commit, and I write a message that makes sense, and all. But for my closed-sourced stuff (mostly one big project I've been working on forever), it's still all lumped many projects in one repo, and I commit like a cowboy with meaningless messages, etc. 01:22:45 Funny how big the contrast is. 01:28:33 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 01:29:59 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925257556.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:31:26 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:38:34 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 01:43:36 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:44:07 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 01:44:42 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:56 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:47:39 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:46 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 01:49:53 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-46-52.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:50:34 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:32 -!- Pavitra [~pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:51:52 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-47-182.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:53:30 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: what did you say ash?] 01:54:31 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-196-2.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 01:55:15 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-50-210.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:01:17 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:01:30 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:02:59 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:03:20 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 02:08:08 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 02:12:48 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:55 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:14:02 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:23 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:22:19 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:21 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:25:12 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:26:42 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:28:20 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:03 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 02:31:04 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:31:04 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 02:31:32 Pavitra [~pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:20 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-111-104.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:34:06 lusory [~bart@bb220-255-244-220.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:34:39 -!- timack [~tim@142.177.10.102] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:34:45 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:36:53 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 02:37:22 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:46:07 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:46:07 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:48:46 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-bwfgxuqtkdalhhxv] has joined #lisp 02:48:46 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-bwfgxuqtkdalhhxv] has quit [Changing host] 02:48:46 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 02:50:03 symbole` [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:59 -!- spiaggia [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:59 -!- fmu_ [89@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mzwgpsdrexivpnoy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:54:59 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:54:59 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:54:59 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-146-208.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:54:59 spiaggia` [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 02:55:00 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:55:00 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f7349a0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:08 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:55:30 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-226.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:56:02 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-25-3.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:56:20 emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:20 -!- emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:56:20 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:58:25 -!- kmc [clozure@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 03:03:01 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:03:01 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:03:01 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-205-165.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:03:01 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:03:02 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-205-165.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:06 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:03:06 -!- chandler [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:03:06 -!- johanbev [~johanbev@44.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:03:06 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:03:27 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f734f92.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:03:27 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-58-28-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:03:28 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:03:29 johanbev_ [~johanbev@44.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:29 chandler_ [~n@new.unmutual.info] has joined #lisp 03:03:29 austinh_ [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:32 kdas_ [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-tcizgvwufofutxtq] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-tcizgvwufofutxtq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:06 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-jtscoyopbmhcciot] has joined #lisp 03:04:08 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:04:09 hdurer`` [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has joined #lisp 03:04:09 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-jtscoyopbmhcciot] has quit [Changing host] 03:04:09 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:04:45 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:41 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:05:51 -!- chandler_ [~n@new.unmutual.info] has quit [Changing host] 03:05:51 chandler_ [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has joined #lisp 03:05:57 -!- chandler_ is now known as chandler 03:07:47 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 03:08:04 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 03:08:25 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-58-28-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:11 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-152-52.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:04 + 03:12:14 tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:23 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 03:15:06 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:16:40 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:16:41 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:21:58 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-135-151.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:22:20 jonsul [~jonsul@cpe-76-187-157-187.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:24:21 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-187-226.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:32:26 -!- veeger [~jarrod@1055hostc2.starwoodbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:32:37 -!- coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:33:19 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ouceqyarkthfmbcg] has joined #lisp 03:33:26 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 03:38:02 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:38:05 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-135-151.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:39:18 psilord [~psilord@adsl-71-150-251-181.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:19 -!- psilord [~psilord@adsl-71-150-251-181.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 03:40:09 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:40:32 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:40 veeger [~jarrod@1055hostc2.starwoodbroadband.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:57 emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:57 -!- emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:44:57 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:46:43 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:47:15 -!- bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:47:25 -!- tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:47:31 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.242] has joined #lisp 03:47:34 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 03:47:46 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:48:07 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48:34 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:49:08 tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:31 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.242] has quit [Client Quit] 03:53:26 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:53:30 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:55:57 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:58:40 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:01:39 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 04:18:37 -!- austinh_ is now known as austinh 04:19:47 -!- dys` is now known as dys 04:20:04 -!- r4v5 [~r4v5@adsl-69-210-251-233.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:21:47 r4v5 [~r4v5@adsl-69-210-251-233.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:50 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:23:29 -!- bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: client closed in haste] 04:24:54 scharan [~scharan@nat/yahoo/x-trqevbormrnetvdx] has joined #lisp 04:30:38 -!- Intensity [3rhAJf5ZUu@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:31:51 wareya_ [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:33:41 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:34:04 Intensity [JtFM7nU9Au@panix5.panix.com] has joined #lisp 04:34:10 -!- Intensity [JtFM7nU9Au@panix5.panix.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:34:10 Intensity [JtFM7nU9Au@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 04:34:19 -!- wareya [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:36:50 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:42:05 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.242] has joined #lisp 04:44:59 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-87-127.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:45:00 -!- scharan [~scharan@nat/yahoo/x-trqevbormrnetvdx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:45:43 -!- zeno` [~user@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:53:41 fmu_ [89@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eewslnvmmlhigiwl] has joined #lisp 04:56:08 -!- Intensity [JtFM7nU9Au@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Quit: Intensity] 04:57:43 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 04:57:53 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-135-151.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:59:51 Intensity [iDkvzSRkOj@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 05:00:42 beach, good morning 05:00:57 antivigilante_ [~antivigil@174-26-108-97.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:03 is there a way to put a character like #\Tab inside the string in format without passing it in with ~c? 05:02:10 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:02:22 Evening, folks. 05:02:37 vs: not really. 05:02:40 howdy 05:03:13 gigamonkey: hm surprising and a bit unfortunate 05:05:08 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:05:54 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 05:07:08 vs: though you're free to write a reader macro for, say, unix style strings. 05:07:35 So maybe #u"foo\tbar\n" does what you want. 05:07:37 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:52 (Or is #u already taken? I'm too lazy to look it up.) 05:09:02 vs: you can just put any character you want in a lisp literal string. 05:09:09 vs: if you want a tab, put there a tab! 05:09:34 Good morning everyone! 05:09:38 Morning, beach. 05:09:44 vs: in emacs, you would type: " H e l l o C-q TAB w o r l d " to get "Hello world" 05:09:51 beach: Good morning! 05:10:08 pjb: this could work, thanks! 05:10:14 vs: well, no. 05:10:26 although gigamonkey's solution may teach me good things 05:10:29 vs: I mean, it may be problematic to push such special control codes in lisp sources. 05:10:47 vs: I would prefer to explicitely write it as (write-byte 9) (ie. using a binary stream). 05:10:52 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:10:53 vs: I think putting literal tabs in your source code would be a pretty bad idea. 05:10:59 vs: or (format t "~C" 9) 05:11:33 Just using control codes in general is a bad idea. Control codes should be reserved to device drivers. 05:11:33 maybe I'll just write a function that jams tab characters inbetween list elements, and then just treat ~c as tab in format 05:11:52 vs: why not use ~T ? 05:12:16 so, I finally have some working code which is doing the same kind of comparison we were doing in python and writing back the insert sql(s) on a text file (in live python system we are writing back to a mysql db) 05:12:25 pjb: downstream tools need to split rows on an actual tab 05:12:27 (format t "~C" 9) could very well output "9"... 05:12:38 vs: so you have a binary file format... 05:12:58 this is a text output 05:13:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-198.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:13:03 No, this is binary. 05:13:21 With fields separated by a binary octets valued to 9. 05:13:26 in python the live system takes around 6-8 hours , here lisp is taking < 3 minutes , can not even belief my eyes 05:14:09 though I managed write my datastructure to load the on memory as 1st step and use that but still it is too fast 05:14:33 kushal: perhaps the problem is rather that python programmers don't know what they have in their object libraries, such as O(n^2) or O(e^n) algorithms... 05:14:51 ok 05:14:58 Perhaps they're ex-java programmers... 05:16:33 pjb, actually I am one of the guys who wrote the system in python :p 05:16:59 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-76-175-244-227.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:17:22 pjb, but now as I started rewriting it in lisp , some people taking it very badly , they just said lisp is very bad for the project, one should always use python ... 05:18:19 also lines like "I don't see language as a barrier here i.e shifting to python." 05:18:31 :) 05:18:36 Then what do they thing of the 6 hours vs. 3 mn? 05:18:44 s/thing/think/ 05:18:48 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 05:19:09 that person never came to me yet, I waiting eagerly to listen the arguments against that :) 05:19:16 pjb, ^^ 05:19:20 * came back 05:22:06 Anyone else having trouble with comp.lang.lisp? 05:24:06 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 05:24:16 fmeyer_ [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 05:24:48 So if I take a piece of code someone else wrote and start out cleaning it up in order to understand it ... 05:25:02 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:25:13 ... and eventually rewrite the whole thing, is there some point that I can claim it's no longer a derived work of the original? 05:25:21 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 05:25:26 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 05:25:31 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:25:51 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:26:10 jonsul: haven't had any trouble with it since I stopped reading it. ;-) 05:26:30 -!- fmeyer_ [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has quit [Client Quit] 05:26:31 kinda new to mail lists, is there some kind of freeze or something after a while? Cause I can't make a post anymore 05:27:02 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has quit [Quit: fmeyer] 05:27:06 fmeyer_ [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 05:28:04 jonsul: so for starters comp.lang.lisp is a Usenet group, not a mailing list. Where are you reading it? 05:28:47 lol, I only have a small understanding of usenet. Google groups 05:29:17 I can't imagine that Google stops you from posting. 05:29:29 gigamonkey: depends. some folks think that just having _seen_ (the details of) another implementation can taint the new work and will make engineers do "clean-room" versions. I think the standard for "derived work" is pretty poorly-defined. I think the key question is "is the original author/rights-holder likely to sue me for infringement?" 05:29:31 That said, the Groups interface is pretty terrible so, who knows? 05:29:53 I've made a few posts and it's been a few hours, also it hasn't shown any new posts in that time. which is odd 05:29:56 and evening folks 05:29:58 true 05:30:04 slyrus_: yeah, that's pretty much what I figured. I.e. there's no clear cut answer. 05:30:04 hello slyrus_ 05:30:13 -!- fmeyer_ [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has quit [Client Quit] 05:30:16 jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has joined #lisp 05:30:17 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-135-151.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:30:19 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 05:30:28 It's a bit odd, though in these days of open source where folks are likely to see all kinds of code. 05:30:37 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:55 slyrus_: so it looks like I'm going to have to actually learn Clojure one of these days. 05:30:59 Any good books on it yet? 05:31:01 well, thanks. I'll look for a usenet tutorial or something 05:31:10 gigamonkey: The Joy of Clojure 05:31:12 the internet book! 05:31:34 gigamonkey: Practical Clojure is meh 05:31:49 gigamonkey: ah, good. I think there are enough good ideas there that any CL programmer should learn it. 05:31:50 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 05:32:30 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 05:34:08 nostoi [~nostoi@161.Red-79-148-56.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:57 slyrus_: what's the short list of good ideas? 05:35:55 well... the general cleanup of the language, for starters 05:36:00 2. STM and immutable data 05:36:21 3. the list/vector/map/set literal syntax 05:36:38 4. generally treating more things as vectors instead of just making everything be a list 05:37:04 5. the seq abstractions over list/vector/map/set 05:37:34 I like 5 a lot. I've been enjoying it in Python. 05:37:43 we already have 5! 05:38:09 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:38:11 I'd personally start by moving toward streams rather than sequences or vectors as the basic abstraction there. 05:38:16 2 and 4 are definitely interesting. 05:38:24 pkhuong: yes, between the language itself and the various impls/libraries the CL-universe has most of this stuff, but clojure puts it under one relatively accessible roof 05:38:25 pkhuong: how so? (I.e. how do you mean it?) 05:39:10 A stream being something you can read and advance. 05:39:13 gigamonkey: list/vector via the sequence interface, and libraries are available to unify other ADTs. 05:39:45 Zhivago: which is pretty much how Python does it, esp. in Python3 05:39:56 6. the clojure-1.2-and-later defprotocol/defrecord/deftype/extend stuff is interesting 05:40:22 Well, I'm not sure about python3, but python tends to use iterators instead. 05:40:50 I think that iterators are also ok, but you need a functional alternative as well. 05:40:52 too bad it's all on the jvm 05:40:57 I'm missing the distinction between an iterator and a stream? (Unless it's that the iterator advances automatically?) 05:41:05 side-effects. 05:41:17 Maybe 'chain' is a better word than 'stream'. 05:41:19 7. it's nice that (unfortunately this is thanks to the java interop stuff) one can make a simple GUI app with a very modest amount of code and minimal learning of the entire ecosystem 05:41:25 Ah, so you can save a place in the stream and go back to it? 05:41:31 Yeah, that'd be nicer. 05:41:35 Yeah, a computed cons block, effectively. 05:41:57 Conses of thunks? 05:41:57 8. lazy-seqs and friends 05:42:34 it's a religious argument, and I'm certainly not a monotheist, but I'm starting to like clojure's lisp-1-ness 05:43:33 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 05:43:39 leningen/maven/clojars annoy me, but they do allow folks to get up and running relatively quickly 05:43:56 Well, you'd need a separate underlying class, and then a function to compute car based on the previous car. 05:44:04 there seems to be a general desire to make the language (the implementation of it anyway) palatable to newcomers 05:44:11 Sorry, based on some hidden state. 05:44:25 So it would end up being three cells if you cache cdr. 05:44:27 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 05:44:29 gigamonkey: should I continue? 05:44:51 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:44:51 I'm good. Nothing left for me but to find time to actually learn it. 05:44:58 A variation with inplace updating would give you iterators. 05:45:07 Have you seen the Getting Clojure web site? 05:45:21 -!- jonsul [~jonsul@cpe-76-187-157-187.tx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 05:45:46 It was started by a guy who has been helping me out a bit with Code Quarterly. 05:45:48 looks annoying 05:45:49 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:45:52 ah, that's nice 05:45:52 Heh. 05:46:31 I've only glanced at it though I noticed the other day that someone other than him seemed to be writing stuff for it. 05:46:35 gigamonkey: I guess you could use emacs to answer that question. You could put a property 'original t to the original source, that would not propagate to inserted characters. So if you had "hello^" ^ denoting the point, and typed DEL DEL DEL l l o it would be 2/5 original, but if you typed instead C-SPC C-b C-w DEL a C-b C-SPC DEL C-y, you'd get "hola" with 50% original code... 05:46:46 s/50/75/ 05:47:22 oh, and the general attitude of the clojure community seems to be that emacs-fu is best left to wizards so one should either try and bottle what the wizards are smoking or should use some crazy as shit like eclipse or vi 05:47:25 I guess some hooks would have to be added to save and restore properties... 05:47:44 pjb: I think the problem may be more of a "color of bits" issue. 05:47:55 Yes :-) 05:48:24 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:48:28 gigamonkey: and I guess 'derivied work' could be produced from scratch, as long as you have the same idea... 05:48:47 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-86-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:48:47 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-86-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:48:52 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-219-167.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 05:48:58 pjb: but in this case it wouldn't be a derived work 05:49:06 It's a vaguely interesting question. In this case, it's some guy wrote an implementation of Knuth's DLX algorithm. 05:49:07 gigamonkey: you could ask RMS, he has experience with that, starting with gosling emacs and 'removing' it from GNU emacs. 05:49:21 I wrote two versions myself in different lanugages. 05:49:33 -!- r4v5 [~r4v5@adsl-69-210-251-233.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:49:41 Then I wanted to understand why his code was so much faster than mine. 05:49:59 That's an AI Koan, no? 05:50:16 I've now mushed his around until it's a lot like my own originals and the only real commanality with the original is the DLX algorithm. 05:50:27 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:18 For example, you cuold change all the low level algorithms, but if you have the high level layers doing the same thing, is it the same program? 05:51:25 (Yet, his is still much faster. There's some stupid difference remaining. And Seibel's 1st law is, no doubt, in full effect.) 05:51:38 Conversly, using the same low level algorithms (library) would it be derived work? 05:52:19 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:52:21 pjb: A matter for lawyers, not philosophers. 05:52:40 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:52:40 /join #lisp-lawyers 05:53:16 Zhivago: well, for philosopher/programmers, the question is, at what point have I created an "original" work. Forget the legal issue of copyright. 05:53:29 One possible answer is "never". 05:53:49 I would argue that, indeed. 05:54:04 For example, you kept breathing while doing that work. Hardly any originality in that... 05:54:54 But more to the point we would have to revise all you have learned ever, and trace it back to the original 'work' of someone... 05:55:26 Perhaps a more answerable question is whether it was 'non-obvious'. 05:55:36 r4v5 [~r4v5@adsl-69-211-6-114.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:43 There could be a test for that (if only 'statistical'). 05:55:48 Certainly wasn't obvious to the original author how to write understandable code! ;-) 05:56:11 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:57:44 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 05:58:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:58:53 -!- kmc [clozure@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 05:59:48 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-108-97.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:00:26 -!- antivigilante_ [~antivigil@174-26-108-97.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:00:36 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-135-151.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:02:08 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:03:02 Did you apply a profiler to it? 06:03:52 Zhivago: it's not even that subtle. DLX is a recursive search algorithm and for some reason my code makes many more calls to the search function. 06:05:23 Sounds like you could trace out an example in each and see where they diverge. 06:05:35 gigamonkey: do you explore recurse in the same order? 06:05:56 Zhivago: yeah. I'm about ready to do that, now that I've got his version mushed around the way I like it. 06:06:48 pkhuong: well, at the moment there are some other differences that make that (and the tracing thing) not easy to answer. But soon. 06:07:17 It's inevitable that eventually I'll either break the fast one or fix the slow one and then I'll know what it is. 06:07:18 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:08:38 -!- Pavitra [~pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:08:41 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 06:10:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:12:33 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-219-167.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:12:38 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-lumdprpjswhsoxyw] has joined #lisp 06:13:50 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:13:50 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:14:05 antivigilante_ [~antivigil@174-26-123-44.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:28 -!- antivigilante_ [~antivigil@174-26-123-44.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:20:49 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:20:59 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@161.Red-79-148-56.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:23:51 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 06:25:59 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:30:49 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:16 -!- symbole` is now known as symbole_ 06:31:28 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:32:33 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-152-52.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:33:05 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 06:33:09 antivigilante_ [~antivigil@174-26-123-44.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:11 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:34:46 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 06:35:37 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:38:12 splittist [~John@146-14.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:38:15 morning 06:43:50 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:44:00 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:44:09 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:46:50 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-144-5.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:06 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 06:47:36 segyr [~user@79.85-200-235.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:47:40 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:49:14 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:53:11 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:53:31 -!- r4v5 [~r4v5@adsl-69-211-6-114.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:53:44 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 06:55:09 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:56:11 r4v5 [~r4v5@69.211.14.138] has joined #lisp 06:57:24 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:58:57 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 07:00:50 escanda [~user@81.37.164.23] has joined #lisp 07:01:04 good morning 07:04:26 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:05:28 does exist an asdf version that uses symlinks in windows with ntfs filesystems? 07:06:16 slyrus_: you still here? 07:06:20 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.242] has joined #lisp 07:07:30 yes 07:08:23 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.54.95] has joined #lisp 07:08:38 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:08:41 Does Clojure have anything like list comprehensions? 07:09:17 for 07:09:51 So in Python list comprehensions you can do [(x,y) for x in foo for y in bar] and get the product of foo and bar 07:10:22 Does 'for' provide an easy way to do that? 07:10:27 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:10:27 yes 07:10:39 Cool. 07:10:53 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:11:06 ak70 [~ak70@user050.195.users.nextweb.net.mt] has joined #lisp 07:12:02 'for' is not the easiest thing to google. 07:12:07 H4ns [~user@pD4B9E38B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:39 e.g.: (for [a (range 5) b (range 5)] (* a b)) 07:13:47 (0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 3 4 0 2 4 6 8 0 3 6 9 12 0 4 8 12 16) 07:14:26 that's thing 9 on the list :) 07:16:48 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:16:53 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:55 xan_ [~xan@softbank220015154086.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:45 ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 07:19:46 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:24:13 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 07:24:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@softbank220015154086.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:24:48 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-122-156.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:24:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-198.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:28:04 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:45 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:29:37 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:31:07 kalivu [~user@p4FE03A79.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:22 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:33:16 -!- antivigilante_ [~antivigil@174-26-123-44.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:33:28 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:34:00 -!- segyr [~user@79.85-200-235.bkkb.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34:53 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-129.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:23 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 07:36:38 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:37:10 -!- splittist [~John@146-14.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:39:35 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:41:24 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:46:12 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 07:48:17 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:50:53 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:51:20 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-58-28-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:52:37 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:55 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7349a0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:54:18 ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:59 splittist [~John@146-14.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:58:13 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:58:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:58:58 -!- ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:59:32 Krystof [~csr21@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:04:54 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 08:05:42 -!- escanda [~user@81.37.164.23] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06:17 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 08:10:15 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 08:10:28 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:15:56 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 08:16:11 what kind of assemble is the output from slime-disassemble-symbol such as this http://paste.pocoo.org/show/272084? 08:16:13 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 08:16:57 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:18:27 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:24:18 SCVirus [~B234651@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:44 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:25:21 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:25:27 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:25:42 -!- symbole_ [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:11 leo2007: what do you mean with "what kind of"? 08:32:13 antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-123-44.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:17 antivigilante_ [~antivigil@174-26-123-44.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:26 leo2007: it's jast the output of CCLs DISASSEMBLE function 08:33:08 jdz: it is not real assemble code? 08:33:15 leo2007: it is very real 08:33:39 can I run it independently without ccl? 08:33:49 no 08:33:55 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:37:14 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-117-216.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:37:59 -!- Krystof [~csr21@nat65.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:38:36 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:17 jdz: thanks. I want to understand the output. do you know where to start? 08:40:03 leo2007: you should be able to understand it if you know the corresponding architecture's instruction set and registers 08:40:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:41:14 leo2007: then you only need to learn a couple extra things about CCL's lispy assembler syntax; but it should be mostly straightforward to figure out if you know the instructions and registers... 08:41:43 leo2007: what exactly is it you want to figure out? 08:42:19 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:42:34 jdz: I am not entirely sure except the feeling that it can be useful when optimising lisp code. 08:43:25 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:43:30 leo2007: it sure can be useful; but there are better ways to approach optimising the code, like profiling 08:43:52 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b0e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:19 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:44:57 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu242.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:45:02 Is it a waste of time to learn some assembly language? I am reading this thread http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dnu3w/i_would_like_to_learn_assembly_any_recommendations/. 08:45:15 for the sake of lisp programming. 08:45:18 nothing is a waste of time =) 08:45:20 leo2007: when you have run out of options and cannot figure out why a particular piece of code performs worse than expected (e.g., you've done your homework about the algorithmic complexity) you could try checking the generated machine code 08:45:40 leo2007: well, sure, learning the assembly is worth it 08:45:40 i see. 08:46:10 leo2007: at least you'll get a clue what the CPU is actually doing to run your programs 08:46:29 it is always a waste of time to learn assembly. if you wanted to know what the computer was actually doing you should have invented a magic box of complete understanding 08:47:34 the computer follows rules and the rules can be investigated and seen. they are not sentient and magic=) 08:47:39 r4v5: the magic box relates to CPUs how? 08:48:07 If I write my own lisp interpreter it will feature 'DISASSEMBLE as well as 'ASSEMBLE 08:48:08 Blkt [~user@93-33-132-91.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:48:54 So I can write optimizers in Lisp... 08:49:21 dostoyevsky: what code will your interpreter interpret? 08:49:52 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-20-82-64-49-113.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:38 jdz: the magic box of complete understanding allows you to completely understand things. There may be LSD in the box. 08:50:48 dostoyevsky: i mean, you're going to build a VM? 08:51:09 r4v5: nobody was suggesting "complete understanding" 08:51:20 if such a thing can actually exist 08:51:29 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 08:51:31 good day everyone! 08:52:05 Good morning! 08:52:13 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:52:24 jdz: I would "compile" the lisp code... 08:52:53 dostoyevsky: well, all current lisp implementations compile lisp code, what's going to be different in yours? 08:53:15 Sorry jdz, i'm just bitter at the moment and at my complete lack of understanding 08:53:49 jdz: That I wrote it myself. So, for any other than me there's no real advantage I guess. ;-) 08:54:04 dostoyevsky: oh, the good old NIH syndrome 08:54:36 jdz: Whatever... Norvig's lispy made me want to do something like he does in C... 08:55:10 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:55:29 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:43 jdz: And the real challenge is not the parsing and executing, it's the memory management, compiliing, and garbage collection... I have an idea to do code it briefly in C but I am not sure whether it's realistic... 08:58:39 dostoyevsky: i'm still unsure what are you going to execute: lisp code directly, some byte-code, or machine code? 08:59:20 dostoyevsky: your mentioning of ASSEMBLE hinted that you're going to compile to non-lisp; so byte-code and machine-code are left 08:59:34 dostoyevsky: if it's machine code, then CPU is quite a good interpreter for that 08:59:45 jdz: Eval'd lisp code... Eval needs to generate a representation of the tokenized lisp code that's easy to execute... 09:00:11 dostoyevsky: you know that lisp code, when read, is a tree? 09:00:23 dostoyevsky: an s-expression 09:00:25 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 09:01:10 jdz: I think so... But maybe I am not sure what this entails with regards to eval... 09:01:10 dostoyevsky: my point being that eval does not need to generate anything 09:01:11 xan_ [~xan@i125-201-129-165.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 09:02:25 dostoyevsky: i'm still unsure what's the "easy to execute" representation in your mind 09:04:54 dostoyevsky: and Norvig's lispy is lis.py, which is not C at all 09:05:22 dostoyevsky: ok, i probably misread that 09:06:03 jdz: Yes, I just see it as a simple definition of a lispy language that I could port in C, just for fun and learning... 09:06:15 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-144-5.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:07:39 dostoyevsky: why do you want to do it in C? 09:08:15 jdz: Because I want to implement my own memory management and garbage collection... 09:08:29 dostoyevsky: you don't need C for that... 09:08:33 I could do it in asm but I am lazy. :) 09:10:00 if you don't care about the performance, you can just have an array (which will represent the memory in your VM), and do everything you want 09:10:10 if, otoh, you care about speed, then you don't implement it yourself 09:10:33 is not meant to discourage you in any way 09:10:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-26.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:12:06 jdz: I always wanted to write a GC in C... I've done some code in C recently for memory management. It's much faster than using malloc(), especially when your program uses a lot of memory... 09:12:19 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12:44 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 09:12:44 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 09:12:45 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:13:18 dostoyevsky: program in what language? 09:13:40 On 64bit you can use a lot of memory, but the normal allocators can not administer this amount of memory efficiently... 09:14:52 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:16:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:16:41 dostoyevsky: are there any good reads about memory management for dummies or so? 09:17:14 reads that you'd recommend 09:18:43 there the garbage collectors survey 09:19:03 go on, please, I'm quite interested in GCs 09:19:06 first hit on google for this one :) 09:19:21 lol 09:19:46 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:19:56 Uniprocessor Garbage Collection Techniques? 09:20:02 yes 09:20:05 thanks 09:20:30 i read it more than 10 years ago, though 09:20:41 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-13-188.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:18 Jabberwockey [~jens@85.22.60.36] has joined #lisp 09:25:16 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:25:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:26:20 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:27:11 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:15 blkt: I'd borrow the Lins and Jones GC book from a library. 09:28:23 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7349a0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:48 It provides a good introduction to most of the GC approaches. 09:29:16 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:29:48 let me find it... 09:30:07 -!- r4v5 [~r4v5@69.211.14.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:30:35 Garbage Collection: Algorithms for Automatic Dynamic Memory Management ? 09:30:47 Blkt: Hmmm.... Well, many can afford to not have much knowledge of GCs... I don't know any good books or reads.. 09:30:59 -!- ak70 [~ak70@user050.195.users.nextweb.net.mt] has left #lisp 09:31:42 dostoyevsky: if you're thinking of implementing a GC, you cannot afford to "not have much knowledge of GCs" 09:31:52 jdz: Why? 09:31:57 dostoyevsky: and a couple good reads were just suggested 09:31:57 jdz: I could be bold 09:32:02 I agree with dostoyevsky though 09:32:05 you just try 09:32:07 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:32:08 r4v5 [~r4v5@69.211.14.138] has joined #lisp 09:32:27 when you face a bigger problem, get back on books, loop 09:32:29 yeah, my job here is done 09:32:53 ? 09:33:44 if all you want from a book is: "oh look, these guys have come up with the same stuff i have, only a lot better and 20 years ago", then yes, go on 09:33:59 dost: GCs tend to have significant domain specific performance issues. 09:34:20 So a broad over-view is important. 09:34:45 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:34:49 Consider the case of where you want a real time GC v.s a GC for very large objects, vs a GC for lots of little objects, ... 09:34:52 jdz: do not misunderstand me, I was just saying that, for learning/teaching purpose, implementing a simple GC can be instructive 09:35:05 I'm not talking about production software 09:35:14 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:39 I just regret that noone ever told me anything about Garbage Collection at University but things like "Java is garbage collected, C is not. Period." 09:35:43 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 09:36:05 Blkt: Java has very good approaches to GC if you read the source... 09:36:08 Blkt: i'm also not talking about "production software"; just wasting time reinventing trivial wheels is not a good way to spend time 09:36:18 But they are also complicated... not easy for learning 09:36:54 Blkt: great, you've found what to blame for that, the university! 09:37:09 stassats: what do you mean? 09:37:17 But Lisp is the most demanding for GCs... so you cannot afford to not know about GC. :) 09:37:31 Blkt: implementing something yourself works like this: you read some technique, can't thoroughly understand it, implement it => now you have thorough knowledge of the technique 09:37:32 Blkt: that you shold've learned that yourself 09:37:51 that's why I'm looking for books :) 09:38:28 Blkt: The wikipedia page is imho sufficient for an overview of GCs... It has all the ideas described.. 09:39:34 minion: bigsurv? 09:39:35 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``bigsurv''. 09:39:56 ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/garbage/bigsurv.ps 09:40:04 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BF83.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:02 oh, it's already been mentioned 09:41:04 the basic concept is really not hard at all, and the specifics are so wildly divergent depending on circumstance that it doesn't make sense to go any deeper than a superficial review before you decide to actually implement a GC 09:41:49 that Wilson paper is very good, afair 09:41:50 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:59 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 09:42:15 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 09:42:19 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:42:26 stassats: may I ask you what's your job? 09:42:58 i'm unemployed 09:43:36 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 09:43:48 I see 09:43:56 the best job there is :) 09:44:06 being unemployed doesn't mean you have no job! 09:44:34 well, i don't get paid for anything i do 09:44:35 your job is to provide correct answers very quickly on #lisp 09:45:22 not a great job, i'd say 09:45:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:45:44 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 09:45:53 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:45:55 you are doing one, though :) 09:45:58 why not? aren't you loved and respected by the community? 09:46:20 if only there were a community 09:46:49 i wonder what love and respect taste like when cooked... 09:46:54 there should be a Godwin's law variation for the word "community" in these parts 09:47:10 cmm: what do you mean? 09:47:13 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.123.6.143] has joined #lisp 09:47:39 (fyi, I don't know what's Godwin's law) 09:48:06 Blkt: google is very friendly, you should try it 09:48:18 I get it 09:48:20 found it 09:48:34 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:48:35 hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 09:49:24 bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-133-72-37.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:51 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:54:45 How the fsck does Lips gain ground? How does it prove itself above and beyone C++, C, Java, etc.? I know quite a few just dont care, but Lisp is *the* way. You could take any modern language, with the possible exceptions of Scheme and Haskell, and they would all pale in comparison with Common Lisp. 09:55:15 bytecolor: what's your point? 09:55:46 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E68F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:47 bytecolor: or did you ask a question? 09:55:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:55:54 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:55:55 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 09:55:55 jdz: why the fsck is Lisp not recognized as the one true way? 09:56:05 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:56:08 bytecolor: why there should be only one true way? 09:56:21 bytecolor: and your use of fsck is wrong 09:56:37 bytecolor: at least in this channel 09:56:55 there is no U in fsck 09:57:16 everybody can see that; what's your point? 09:57:43 byte: Nonsense. 09:57:45 is somebody prohibiting you to write the word "fuck" like "fuck"?+ 09:57:46 jdz, when is the last time you wrote code in c++? 09:58:01 bytecolor: more than 10 years ago 09:58:07 aye 09:58:13 byte: You need to understand that the problems that people with lots of money want programmers to solve and the problems that you want to solve are not the same. 09:58:36 byte: For those people, Java is usually a much better choice. 09:58:37 Zhivago: but the problem is the same 09:58:41 byte: No. It isn't. 09:58:48 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:58:53 byte: The problem is one of how to control programmers. 09:58:54 how so? 09:58:54 bytecolor: what problem? 09:59:06 byte: So that they produce good ROI. 09:59:29 ok, social verses pragmatic 09:59:46 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E38B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:00:01 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:00:09 bytecolor: see what your use of fsck has done to you? you no longer can type letter 'u' 10:00:14 that's pretty sad 10:00:18 indeed 10:00:20 SICP looks pricy 10:01:20 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.123.6.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:01:28 I guess I look as Lisp as a philosophy, which does not compute. 10:02:12 i always thought that Lisp is a programming language 10:02:23 not even close 10:02:41 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 10:03:01 when you compare common lisp with c++, C, Python, etc, it's leaps and bounds ahead 10:03:14 it's sad to wake up one morning, and realize that something you have believed in all your life before, is suddenly wrong 10:03:29 made wrong by somebody on the intarwebs 10:03:47 :) 10:04:05 jdz, but it's not wrong. There are those that belive Lisp should remain a curiosity. 10:04:11 bytecolor: did you take your anti-smugness pills today? 10:04:33 no, I take no pills. 10:05:13 that's showing 10:05:33 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:05:42 byte: So, how do you make a new kind of sequence in CL? 10:05:43 Anyone that has ping-ponged between C++ and Common Lisp must be perplexed. 10:07:22 byte: No ideas? 10:07:37 Zhivago: Common Lisp does not have its short commings. 10:07:45 it's not perfect 10:07:50 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has left #lisp 10:08:07 bytecolor: How do you do that in python? 10:08:34 bytecolor: Or C++, for that matter? 10:08:43 In many regards CL is behind the times. 10:08:49 that's easy: (defclass my-sequence (sequence) ()) 10:09:20 stassats: Not in conformant CL. 10:09:25 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:09:36 yakov_ [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 10:09:53 Zhivago: why do you attack someone that would like to see Lisp gain ground? 10:09:58 byte: I'm not. 10:10:05 byte: I'm helping you to tell fewer lies. 10:10:35 byte: There are few things worse for lisp than a puffed up moron making specious claims like that. 10:10:40 what lies? Lisp trumps every other language with the excpetion of Scheme and Haskell/ 10:10:50 how is that a lie? 10:11:05 because it's not true? 10:11:06 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:11:27 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:11:43 and so Lisp will die 10:11:44 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:11:50 bytecolor: So, how do you make a new kind of hash-table in CL? 10:12:01 -!- yakov_ is now known as yakov 10:12:02 it wont, as Kent Pitman said in his opening speech at ELS2010 10:12:16 yakov_ [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 10:12:21 because Internet will keep it alive, as with many other languages 10:12:37 bytecolor: How do you extend the file-system interface to transparently handle http? 10:13:02 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:13:05 bytecolor: No ideas? 10:13:11 Zhivago: I don't know, but I do posses the intelligence to find out. 10:13:57 Zhivago: that doesn't sound like a good idea, because http will be transparent only in the simplest case 10:14:02 bytecolor: Then I suggest that you learn CL before trumping its virtues. 10:14:02 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 10:14:37 Zhivago: that there exists things which CL fails at does not make it inferior. 10:14:39 stassats: Well, you should be able to do stupid things, too. 10:14:39 Zhivago: philosophy and syntax are mutually exclusive 10:14:55 bytecolor: What? You can't have syntax and philosophy at the same time? 10:15:03 bytecolor: What the hell are you smoking? 10:15:09 Zhivago: nothing 10:15:27 bytecolor: Then go and get some medication so that you stop babbling nonsense. 10:15:43 I am perplexed. 10:21:56 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:26:46 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:28:22 -!- kalivu [~user@p4FE03A79.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 10:28:43 So. There are loud voices that wish to keep Lisp a "secret". I cannot see any other reason for Lisp being perceived as a curiosity. 10:29:55 bytecolor: We discuss it in #lispconspiracy. Please hop over there if you'd like to continue. 10:30:22 lol 10:30:32 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:33 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:31:04 what kind of conspiracy is that if you talk freely about it? 10:31:55 That hasn't hurt Bielefeld, has it? 10:32:05 "conspiricy" is a word used to discourage thought. 10:32:30 conspiracy* 10:35:38 my only thought: how can you possible learn (even the basics of Lisp) and not realize how it is, in fact, leaps an bound beyond most every other language used? 10:36:54 That coupled with the popularity of, say, Java just perplexes the hell out of me. 10:37:25 of course that goes back to Zhivago's comment, of profit. 10:37:28 loljava 10:37:56 bytecolor: you need to sip some kool-aid to realize that 10:38:34 stassats: whoes kool-aid? Java's? 10:38:45 Kaer [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:39:03 -!- Kaer [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 10:39:11 antivigilante__ [~antivigil@174-26-123-44.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:20 -!- antivigilante_ [~antivigil@174-26-123-44.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:39:23 Kaes [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:39:37 bytecolor: What kinds of programs do you write in Lisp? 10:39:53 Xach: parsing mostly 10:40:10 parsing programming languages 10:40:23 bytecolor: What do you do with the resulting data? 10:40:24 *tcr* laughs out 10:40:28 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:40:36 put it in a tree 10:40:55 Sort of an orchard of programs? 10:40:58 bananas or apples? 10:41:07 apples 10:41:37 parse-for-fun then? 10:41:40 PEG parsing 10:43:14 I could either build a tree of expressions or I could evaluate the espressions as they are read from input 10:44:39 claint [~user@78.185.126.108] has joined #lisp 10:45:05 in which context do you use this programs? 10:46:01 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 10:46:36 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-135-151.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:00 it depends on the language, it could be an embedded language to, for instance, evaluate d1@sketch2. d1 being a dimension at sketch1. 10:47:02 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-135-151.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:47:28 zeno` [~user@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:47:32 no, I mean, do you do that for job or what? 10:47:40 I really don't give a fsck what the alpha males of this group have to say. Lisp is fscking awesome. 10:48:59 Blkt: I don't get payed to code. If I did, I'd probably hate it, unless I was writing Lisp. 10:49:10 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-122-156.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:49:22 if you really didn't care about them, you wouldn't try to argue with them about Lisp superiority 10:49:46 you'd just give it for granted 10:49:49 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has joined #lisp 10:49:50 touche 10:49:52 bytecolor: Well, clueless advocacy has its place. I learned Lisp because I interviewed a guy at work who said "Did you know Lisp is my favorite language? Paul Graham wrote Yahoo Store in Lisp! Use it? No, I don't actually *use* it..." 10:50:06 And I thought: Dang, I don't want to be like *that* guy. 10:50:30 I think for some it has the opposite effect, though. 10:50:39 who was this guy? :D 10:52:13 Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:54:05 is that like saying "i hate C++" without actually using it? 10:54:20 Xach: I *would* use it, if I could do GUI with it that does not look like in the mid-80's ;-) 10:54:44 but as it is now, i'm stuck at admiring it 10:54:47 daniel: does Qt count as mid-80? 10:55:21 a qt-lisp binding would be new to me 10:55:27 and great news 10:55:47 the bindings i have found were all non-usable 10:55:57 fscking horrible binding 10:56:09 there is commonqt, but it's not yet polished 10:56:31 lisp-cffi-qt4 is dead, and had never a stable version 10:56:47 but then, if you want something ready, commercial lisps provide modern guis 10:56:51 oh, they updated the page with a reference to Clojure and Qt Jambi 10:57:14 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:57:16 i would be using lisp for open source work, only 10:58:01 Clojure, to me, is the future. 10:58:58 get pissed off all you want, but portablilty with a Lisp base philisophy is fscking awesome 11:00:09 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 11:00:25 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:09 I didn't appreciate how they modified slime-swank for their needs, it messed up all my previous configuration, but I'm talking on early versions 11:01:33 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:01:36 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:01:39 not to mention the worthless plugins for Eclipse and 11:01:43 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:01:45 what was it 11:01:47 ... 11:01:56 NetBeans 11:02:18 worthless to you. i guess many people appreciate it 11:02:28 i'd never want to work with eclipse, though 11:02:29 but they were bugged to hell 11:02:43 Blkt: someone just gave me a link regarding clojure/slime but I haven't tried it yet 11:03:01 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:03:06 the repl took like 15 seconds to boot up on a machine I use to play Starcraft 2 11:03:14 I'm not a clojure fan, just curious 11:03:35 I use it for an univ project, it was fun 11:04:58 I need to create a git base for my PEG parser 11:06:31 fscking yacc/bison. 11:07:24 please, put back the u in it, I keep reading it as fs check... 11:07:38 bytecolor: maybe people will start to take you more serious when you stop swearing 11:07:46 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has joined #lisp 11:07:54 heh 11:08:00 there is no "YOU" in fsck 11:08:48 daniel: seems like many people who want to sell GUI programs in Lisp use LispWorks CAPI 11:10:12 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 11:10:25 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:13:51 -!- yakov_ [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:15:07 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925257556.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:15:29 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17:01 That's where I'm most likely a thorn to some developers. Profit is not an issue. 11:17:22 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 11:17:44 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:17:46 is there any book which talks about different types of problem/issues people solve using lisp ? (Declaimer: I am yet to go fully with PCL, I am reading it, this is just a question popped up) 11:18:29 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:19:59 Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:20:58 kushal: no central location, the best you can do is google. Just keep in mind: there is no problem that cannot be solved by Lisp. 11:21:10 :) 11:21:48 *kushal* wants to shift to lisp as primary language from python :) 11:23:59 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:24:15 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 11:24:19 bytecolor: you're invoking turing completeness, topic closed. 11:24:28 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:26:23 I really don't give a fsck what any one says, Common Lisp can solve any problem you throw at it. 11:27:30 yakov_ [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 11:27:50 it's not Common Lisp, it's the programmer solving the problem. 11:27:52 You may have to write a domain specific language to do it (screamer), but it can be done. 11:28:28 bytecolor: nobody ever argued that something cannot be done in CL 11:28:37 bytecolor: what exactly are you arguing about? 11:28:55 jdz, but ther is the crux of the language. 11:28:59 *there 11:29:12 bytecolor: there is what? 11:29:26 it's fscking programmable 11:29:37 jdz: he's been doing this since this morning. leave it. 11:29:57 *bytecolor* rolls a smoke 11:30:00 one more mention of "fsck" program, and you're getting on ignore list or something 11:30:44 muahah, ok. I'll keep that in mind 11:31:06 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 11:31:34 tfb [~tfb@92.41.216.66.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:32:58 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:34:24 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-140-24.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:18 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:41:50 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 11:42:52 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 11:43:40 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:43:56 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:43:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:43:57 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 11:46:20 serichsen [~user@f054169123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:46:23 Hello! 11:46:43 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-13-188.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:50:58 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:52:56 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:57:59 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 11:58:48 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:00:48 Hello serichsen 12:01:12 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:51 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-69-67.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:52 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:05:01 -!- claint [~user@78.185.126.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:05:10 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 12:06:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:08:33 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 12:08:39 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:09:26 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:10:20 aerique [~euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:11:35 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:23 -!- aerique [~euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:16:48 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:16:50 aerique [~euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:17:08 urandom__ [~user@p548A2B61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:11 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-135-151.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:20:57 LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:22:05 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:23:50 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 12:23:53 LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:25:56 -!- LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 12:26:00 LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:29:03 Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has joined #lisp 12:29:27 on windows platform where does cffi usually look for foreign libs 12:29:45 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:31:14 I'm not sure, but I'm going to go with "probably $PATH". 12:32:08 nyef: sounds feasible 12:32:21 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 12:32:24 I really don''t like this platform 12:33:50 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ouceqyarkthfmbcg] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:34:38 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:25 Hmm, what's the standard way to install ccl system-wide on Linux? 12:35:33 *Xach* is working from an svn checkout 12:35:42 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-87-127.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:03 Xach: Ask again now ;)  but I don't think there is one. 12:36:31 Hmm, what's the standard way to install ccl system-wide on Linux? I am working from an svn checkout! 12:36:47 *Xach* decides to check out in /usr/local/ccl, make symlinks, see how it goes 12:37:10 Xach: That's what I would do, as well. 12:37:11 I usually put it in /usr/local/src/ccl and copy ccl/scripts/ccl to /usr/local/bin 12:37:38 hi, I had a question last week concerning gsll; sent it to the mailing list (after registering), but it doesn't seem to reach the list. 12:37:46 nyef: Good call on Path variable 12:37:47 could it be that it has been put on hold because it includes an attachment? 12:38:18 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 12:38:18 12:38:18 -!- names: ccl-logbot rme Sebastian_Sturm stepnem Guthur LiamH urandom__ aerique tritchey Dodek madnificent Salamander__ Jasko nikodemus serichsen attila_lendvai nyef execve tfb astoon yakov_ xyxxyyy Krystof mathrick zeno` Kaes antivigilante__ rootzlevel sabalaba pchrist_ super__ H4ns bytecolor tcr relcomp Deesl katofiad pavelludiq Yuuhi nha r4v5 dys setheus Jabberwockey gravicappa xan_ Quadrescence hlavaty drdo Nshag Blkt ziarkaen morphling incandenza antivigilante 12:38:18 -!- names: SCVirus kiuma splittist humasect jdz Athas simplechat Beetny ost`` dto lat ehu mega1 kleppari mcsontos mrSpec vu3rdd dborba jsoft The_Jon_Smith Intensity fmu_ wareya_ tama emma veeger pjb hdurer`` c|mell austinh s0ber_ rdd chandler johanbev_ spiaggia` lusory skalawag legumbre BrianRice MetalDust chrnybo Hraban svk_ Ralith e-future Guest22034 rread Anarch xinming_ Xach rpg Euthydemus Adamant benny hugod TomJ lnostdal naryl nowhereman fmu daniel tsuru 12:38:18 -!- names: ddevaal housel sepi jmcphers vinnana rtoym kuwabara Obfuscate quasisane cmm cataska araujo derrida beach sonnym tychoish logia_th minion Modius gz` drewc lemoinem enn sellout mulander varjag yan_ debiandebian eno Tristam cmeow sigjuice konr srcerer Xof cow-orker fe[nl]ix slyrus clog ASau specbot arbscht prip ivan4th Pepe_ kloeri kmc nasloc__ krl krappie_ Fullma petter` sbahra boysetsfrog Axioplase_ dmiles_afk fihi09 kvsari AntiSpamMeta Tasunteld seejay 12:38:18 -!- names: gds mornfall mal__ clop lonstein Borbus erk_ scode holycow tomaw lisppaste deepfire symbole foom bfein lichtblau angavrilov sie billstclair Tordek siccegge schmrkc sykopomp vs marienz ineiros djinni` stettberger tic mgr Adrinael phadthai egn V-ille zeroish Buganini Aisling starseeker bzzbzz_ l_a_m hdurer_ mtd drakko antoszka hohum Fade cpt_nemo vandemar felipe qsun tessier vsync fda314925 guther bobbysmith007 codemonkeyx delYsid fitzgen eli eldragon cpc26 12:38:18 -!- names: adeht Draggor rotty koollman boyscared yahooooo slyrus_ ramus Kovensky Khisanth _3b` baley Dazhbog OliverUv m4thrick pok antifuchs gnooth qebab CrazyEddy jsnell cYmen ecraven aoh blitz_ p_l rullie `micro Odin- franki^ joshe sid3k ``Erik dostoyevsky abend Bucciarati Yamazaki-kun joast turbo24prg pkhuong acieroid hypno nuba johs rapacity luis zbigniew dose lharc tvaalen ianmcorvidae cods albino _3b tokenrove PissedNumlock herbieB_ [df] galdor dcrawford 12:38:18 -!- names: nullman spacebat Zhivago jpanest djm jrockway amaron 12:38:56 rme, sellout: You guys are so helpful! Now, what's the best way to delete a directory with ClozureCL? 12:39:14 *splittist* gives up (for now) on the Great OPC Zip Mystery 12:39:42 Sebastian_Sturm: I haven't seen the email but I will look into it to see where it might be held up. 12:39:52 thank you 12:40:34 sometimes it's a problem of sending it from a different email than the one you registered; I know that's happened to me on occasion. 12:41:47 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:44:43 Xach: Good question. There are some internal functions (ccl::recursive-delete-directory and ccl::%rmdir of course), but it seems like there ought to be something exported for the user to use. (Have to go; be back later.) 12:45:12 rme: cl-fad references ccl:delete-directory, so it makes me wonder if it used to exist 12:45:21 it's conditionalized on #+openmcl 12:46:14 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 12:49:28 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 12:50:06 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:54 -!- konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:53:10 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 12:53:58 anyone notice emacs/slime/CCL hanging on windows 12:54:49 It freezes up emacs but if I shutdown the CCL process everything frees up, of course the lisp is then dead which isn't ideal 12:54:58 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:39 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:57:41 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:58:15 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.183] has joined #lisp 13:00:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-26.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:02:53 LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:03:04 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:04 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:03:04 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 13:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:50 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 13:12:51 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has joined #lisp 13:13:25 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:13:50 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:58 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 13:15:10 -!- baley [~baley@87.229.24.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:15:55 -!- zeno` [~user@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 13:16:04 baley [~baley@87.229.24.201] has joined #lisp 13:16:29 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:16:55 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:17:57 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:21:11 i'm getting a failure "stream.impure.lisp / OVERAGER-CHARACTER-BUFFERING" on latest git checkout of SBCL 13:21:18 if anybody cares 13:21:37 and shouldn't OVERAGER be OVEREAGER? 13:23:29 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:25:23 jdz: please report details on launchpad or sbcl-bugs (lp preferable) 13:25:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.26] has joined #lisp 13:27:17 nikodemus: what kind of details exactly? 13:27:36 nikodemus: the failing test was added with revision 1.0.43.6 13:28:00 i'm now at 1.0.43.28 13:28:34 all i can give is an output of uname and /lib/libc 13:28:38 jdz: uname -a, output from the failing test and failure mode 13:28:58 nikodemus: how do i get the latter ones? 13:29:51 failure mode meaning: reported normally vs. hangs vs. computer grows wings and flaps around the room 13:30:06 oh, right 13:30:35 i have the "good" failure mode (reported normally) 13:30:42 ok, off to lp i go then 13:30:42 output: if nothing else, you can do "sh run-tests.sh streams.impure.lisp > test.log" and attach test.log to the bug 13:31:18 if you have time to isolate the relevant parts, that is of course appreciated 13:31:37 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:06 ok, looks like it is not related to external formats (but rather with FS access; i'll try to dig into this a bit) 13:33:23 will restart the computer first, though :) 13:33:33 who knows what might be involved 13:34:09 jdz: actually, also add your umask to the bug 13:34:17 could have something to do with that too 13:34:35 yeah, it might 13:34:44 i have a very interesting setup here :) 13:34:59 brb 13:35:02 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:37:40 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:36 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 13:40:15 konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has joined #lisp 13:43:37 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:44:04 I want to try an asdf-installable package without installing it -- can I load it from a temporary location? 13:44:55 The package is Utz-Uwe Haus' version of cl-soap. 13:45:45 this an all other "package" management problems are solved by Quicklispy 13:45:53 ok, Quicklisp 13:46:02 Sure, download it and unpack it manually to your temporary location, and load the .asd with LOAD before using REQUIRE or OPERATE. 13:46:16 At the same time, ye gods, don't use asdf-install! 13:46:27 nyef: That doesn't sound too hard. BRB. 13:46:30 chrnybo: I used to use this: wget --no-cookies -O foo.tar.gz http://cliki.net/foo?download 13:46:49 replace foo with cl-soap 13:46:56 sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has joined #lisp 13:49:05 yay, this is cool 13:49:46 sb-posix:mktemp returns a string with a #\Nul as the first character 13:50:26 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-7-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:52:12 Xach: No problem with regards the download, I have a local directory with cl-soap-uuh-read-only/cl-soap.asd and cl-soap-uuh-read-only/src/*lisp. 13:52:28 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-46-52.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:53:01 chrnybo: ah, gotcha. well, it's fairly easy to tell asdf how to find system files in any directory. 13:53:09 nyef: loading asd files with LOAD does not work, in general. 13:53:38 Xach: Seemed like a good idea at the time. 13:53:43 nyef: asdf's loading of .asd files sets up an environment that plain load does not, and some system files depend on that special environment. 13:53:54 chrnybo: a fortunate coincidence, then 13:53:55 ... Fair enough, although it usually works. 13:54:32 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-98-200.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:29 jdz: ok, i can reproduce the failure 13:55:53 "System call error 2 (No such file or directory)" 13:55:58 is that what you see? 13:56:08 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-98-200.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:25 yes 13:57:29 i also get groveling warnings about SIGEMT, S_IFWHT, O_NOFOLLOW, O_DIRECTORY and O_DIRECT being unknown to the C compiler 13:57:38 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-129.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:58:33 ... There's an Emergency Medical Technician signal now? 13:59:05 nikodemus: hmm, looks like sb-posix:mktemp does not like the .tmp extension after the XXXXXXX's 13:59:14 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:59:17 scratch the apostrophe 13:59:47 for me it breaks at mkfifo 14:01:14 just remove the .tmp from temporary file name 14:01:18 then it works 14:01:28 and that's what needs to be fixed... 14:01:33 yeah 14:01:38 so it seems 14:02:31 -!- benny [~benny@i577A838A.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:56 hypercube31 [~hypercube@66.90.18.146] has joined #lisp 14:08:47 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:08:52 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 14:10:04 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:33 jdz: fix committed, no need to report on lp anymore. thanks for making noise about it 14:11:52 nikodemus: you're welcome, glad to be of assistance. 14:12:19 SBCL has not switched to Git, has it? 14:12:19 -!- veeger [~jarrod@1055hostc2.starwoodbroadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:12:20 but for future reference, lp is really the best place to report stuff. making noise here _after_ reporting is good too, but putting it on lp ensures that it will not get lost 14:12:46 jdz: well, pretty much everyone uses it, but the commits go to CVS 14:12:54 veeger [~jarrod@1055hostc2.starwoodbroadband.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:07 somebody should bite the bullet and just switch over? 14:13:22 jdz: it's not clear that git will catch on 14:13:34 Xach: on CVS? 14:13:54 jdz: it's not good to chase every passing fad! 14:15:42 jdz: switching without taking advantage of gits features doesn't buy much anything, and still takes work. taking advantage of those features requires some thinking that hasn't happened yet -- and will likely have an effect on release engineering as well 14:16:33 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:19:54 Xach: did you switch to Common Lisp already? 14:21:16 ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-214-106.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 14:21:26 stassats: i'm hedging my bets. 14:21:50 stassats: there's no guarantee that it will be adopted 14:28:15 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:31:30 Xach: btw, congratulations - QL is even in Franz mailinglist :D 14:32:05 p_l|uni: not a lot of survey responses from it, though 14:32:35 pity 14:33:27 still, I might need to find a way to bridge clbuild to QL... I've got projects that I download through clbuild whil all the rest is handled by QL. it gets messy when clbuild wants to download deps :) 14:35:07 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:49 is there way to get all the reserverd keys for a lisp implementation ? 14:37:04 err reserved keys,symbols,words etc... 14:38:06 'reserved'? 14:38:10 bound? 14:38:24 wbooze: what do you want to do? 14:38:34 this question seems to be en vogue lately ... :/ 14:38:41 wbooze: outside of their docs? I doubt so. CLHS will list the ones that are defined in ANSI standard and what can you do with them, but I have no idea about implementation-specific stuff 14:39:08 mind you, it's usually not that a symbol name is reserved, but a symbol name in specific package 14:39:19 (which I exploit mercilessly in a project of mine) 14:40:00 ok 14:40:03 p_l|uni: I have some ideas in that direction, but perhaps the quicklisp channel is a better place to discuss them 14:42:35 nikodemus: yeah, fair enough. 14:44:29 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:45:10 (loop for symbol being the symbol in 'cl collect symbol) ? 14:45:44 gz [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has joined #lisp 14:45:45 brnhack [~hrk@ntsitm093182.sitm.nt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:45:55 -!- gz [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has left #lisp 14:46:09 -!- brnhack [~hrk@ntsitm093182.sitm.nt.ngn.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 14:47:31 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:49:16 -!- aerique [~euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:50:45 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:51:39 Bronsa [~bronsa@host190-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:55:36 So, before I shave this particular yak, is there anyone finding yasnippet useful in their day-to-day cl coding? 14:55:39 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:17 btw, I have a quick question regarding coding style involving macros: http://paste.lisp.org/+2GYU 14:56:35 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:11 It's... not horrible, I guess? 14:57:25 why macros? 14:57:35 benny [~benny@i577A838A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:46 True, macros don't gain you anything over functions there. 14:57:53 stassats: it was what came to my mind first, I just considered the function-based option 14:58:08 (while writing the paste) 14:59:05 so far I didn't have a project that needed something like this :) 15:00:21 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:00:53 What is the CL of choice for windows 15:00:55 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:01:13 sbcl inside a virtual machine with linux? 15:01:29 Guthur: I choose SBCL, for obvious reasons. 15:01:31 stassats: Not sure if VM really counts to be honest 15:01:39 p_l|uni: that's not a million miles from what I'm noodling away at. The base level is a bunch of functions that, when nested, create a tree of objects. There isn't a one-to-one mapping between function-names and object-names because I want to be able to then modify ('style') the tree before rendering it. 15:01:59 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:00 nyef: I was considering but I also had a requirement for threads 15:02:13 ccl, acl, lispworks? 15:02:17 Guthur: can you pay? If not, CCL, if yes, LW or ACL (I'm leaning towards LW as it has SMP threading) 15:02:21 s/lispworks/lw/ 15:02:22 So take a look at the threaded-win32 patches? 15:02:28 p_l|uni: you could set it up so that your GUI 'definition' is a closure, which, if it has free vrbls, is a sort of 'template'. 15:02:32 Corman also works fine if you don't need Unicode 15:02:58 Not going to pay unfortunately, CCL was freezing for some reason, but maybe it was slimes fault 15:03:08 Guthur: there have been bugs in windows threads in the 1.5 release that would manifest themselves as slime freezes. Please try the trunk, or update 1.5 from svn (I think the fixes were merged there). 15:03:39 see, for instance, http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/696 15:03:50 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:38 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:06:40 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@85.22.60.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:06:52 rme: how would CCL react to code that would set its own SEH handlers? I kinda need those to support MSVC's exceptions 15:10:38 splittist: I've been thinking more of "components" rather than "templates" 15:11:05 where I'd define "component" which would create a class + apropriate wrapper function for it 15:11:37 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:12:23 I don't know. CCL itself doesn't do anything with SEH. 15:13:29 What does CCL do with exceptions that aren't "for" it in some sense? 15:13:54 Oh, right, the stack-switching as well. 15:13:57 *nyef* shudders. 15:14:22 *p_l|uni* simply wonders whether VEH (used by CCL) and SEH (used by C++ exceptions) will not tangle into incoherent mess 15:14:52 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@59.10.182.29] has joined #lisp 15:14:55 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:15:05 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-142-136.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:07 p_l|uni: VEH trumps SEH, but can defer to SEH, so it depends on the VEH handler. 15:15:18 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:23 Note that SBCL doesn't have this problem, it has different problems. 15:15:53 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 15:16:05 nyef: I personally prefer SEH despite the somewhat lacking docs :) 15:16:06 iNtERrUp_ [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has joined #lisp 15:16:21 (unless I really need to handle the signal globally) 15:16:29 davazp [~user@83.54.165.216] has joined #lisp 15:16:35 Don't know what you're talking about. The win32 SEH documentation is great! 15:17:12 maybe I looked in incorrect places 15:17:49 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:17:56 still, C++ interop *requires* SEH 15:18:54 it's wierd. irc is only text, but i can clearly see nyef's "that's what i've been telling everybody for YEARS" expression 15:19:03 Good evening everyone! 15:19:17 e-future [~e-future@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 15:19:17 -!- e-future [~e-future@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Changing host] 15:19:17 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 15:19:24 Heh. 15:19:26 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:19:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19:57 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:20:04 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@59.10.182.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:20:17 *p_l|uni* will be building SEH frames at runtime 15:20:52 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-219-167.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:21:07 Here is a problem: I have a bitvector V with N = a couple hundred thousand elements. I need to answer O(N) questions like this: given a k, what is the largest i < k such that V[i] = 0. Any ideas how to do what without wasting too much space (factor 2 is OK), perhaps taking advantage of machine instructions that I don't know of. 15:21:35 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:21:37 rme: Cheers I will checkout the trunk 15:22:56 p_l|uni: SBCL should be able to handle that, more or less. 15:23:14 beach: like (position 0 b-v :from-end t :end k) ? 15:23:37 stassats: Yes, but O(N) per question is unacceptable. 15:23:57 stassats: I know how to do it in O(log N) by building a bit tree. 15:24:05 p_l|uni: If you're doing it within lisp code, though, your handler will need to pass on the exceptions that SBCL needs. If you're just doing it as part of your call-out sequence, then have fun. SBCL will establish its own handler on call-in anyway. 15:24:15 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:24:49 stassats: But I am also thinking of the constant factor. My method requires lb N iterations, so around 20, which is what I would like to cut down on if possible. 15:24:53 Umm... You may have some trouble -throwing- an exception from lisp code, due to SBCL's handler, but that should be fixable. 15:25:03 well, in case of b-v constant savings are large, by factor of word-length, basically your first search the first word which isn't #xFFFFFFFF 15:25:06 well, throwing exceptions will take time :) 15:25:34 i really like the way lp allows migrating bugs between projects 15:25:43 stassats: A couple 100 k divided by word lengh is much greater than 20. 15:26:53 roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 15:28:24 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:57 p_l|uni: Actually, one amusing factoid about SBCL on windows: If you walk the SEH chain, you will see -every- currently-live unwind-protect. 15:29:30 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 15:29:39 beach: you can do it in O(1) with O(n) extra storage. 15:30:07 beach: it shouldn't be too much on modern hardware 15:30:22 pkhuong: Right, but the constant factor might be too great. 15:30:28 No. 15:30:33 no? 15:31:11 on my more than 5 years old CPU traversing a bit-vector with two million elements takes less than 100 ms 15:31:13 Just use an array to map from index k to the last index i with V[i] = 0. You can do so at the word level, and refine the search later on. 15:31:16 stassats: 100k / 64 > 1k iterations. I know how to do it in 20. I doubt hardware can help a factor 50. 15:31:29 nyef: which IMHO fits very well :D 15:31:30 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:31:37 and in 32-bit mode 15:31:39 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:32:10 And building the auxiliary array is a single traversal, and you look for 0 bits by comparing each word with (ldb (byte width 0) -1). 15:32:13 pkhuong: I considered that solution but couldn't figure out how to use less than N full words. 15:32:34 you work at the level of multiple chunks of bits. 15:32:52 a word is ideal. 15:33:47 OK, so I would use one word for each word. 15:33:56 right. 15:34:08 And then how do I find the 0 within a word. 15:34:19 (in less than 20 iterations) 15:34:20 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B32755C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:43 use the x86 instruction to find the first 0 bit. 15:34:53 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082ABE8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:34:58 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 15:35:01 Ah, that's what I was looking for. What is that instruction called? 15:35:12 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:27 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 15:35:29 And does CL have a function that exploits that instruction? 15:36:12 integer-length? 15:36:20 You can fake it with some bit twiddling and integer-length. 15:36:29 Excellent! Thank you both. 15:36:55 (integer-length (logxor x (1+ x))), I think. 15:37:19 pkhuong: I can figure that out. Thanks again! 15:39:00 in x86, that'd be not/bsr (or bsf) 15:39:28 OK. 15:39:35 As usual, #lisp is very helpful. 15:41:11 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:41:19 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:51 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:51 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host190-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:44:08 beach: there's a certain subtleness in how the cache is computed; you probably want to compute first-non-one-word[floor(x/32)]. That way you have to search the cached index and the word in which the initial position is. 15:44:43 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 15:45:57 I didn't get it. What's the alternative? 15:47:35 Your cache must return an index for positions x...x+31, for instance. 15:47:50 Yes, of course. 15:47:51 But sometimes, the 0 will be in one of those positions (e.g., at x+16). 15:48:23 OK, and how does that matter? 15:48:34 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:48:39 So you have to decide if you'll compute the index for x, or for x+31. If you with x, you only have to search 2 words; I'm not sure if you can do something similar if you choose x+31 instead. 15:49:14 Bronsa [~bronsa@host190-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:49:49 I am a bit lost, but I am sure I'll figure it out by thinking about it some more. 15:49:52 right 15:50:37 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host190-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 15:50:59 If you went with x+31, you'd only have to search the indices cached at (floor x 32) and (1- (floor x 32)). If you go with x, you search the index cached at (floor x 32) and the word at index (floor x 32). 15:51:12 beach: if you lost a bit, now you know how to find it! 15:51:21 Bronsa [~bronsa@host190-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:52:54 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.183] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:20 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 15:57:36 pkhuong: I think I see the problem now. 15:58:12 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:30 pkhuong: And I am beginning to think it is not as easy as just using integer-length, because as you said, I might need to find a 0 (or a 1) in a word, starting at a particular position. 15:59:46 that's just a mask away. 15:59:59 pkhuong: True. 16:00:27 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 16:02:30 I'll program this up at some point and submit it for inspection! 16:02:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:05:57 And on a 64-bit machine, the vector containing indexes can use a smaller integer that might be specialized, such as 32-bit. 16:07:08 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.216.66.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:07:31 right. 16:07:47 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-103-252-153.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:31 -!- Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:16:01 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:20:17 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host190-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:20:32 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:22:20 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:22:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@i125-201-129-165.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:23:44 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:23:51 -!- splittist [~John@146-14.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has left #lisp 16:24:05 splittist [~John@146-14.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:24:32 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has left #lisp 16:28:33 -!- iNtERrUp_ [~interrupt@61.43.139.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:56 pkhuong, ping 16:30:27 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:31:21 kushal: pong. 16:31:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.54.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:32:06 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:18 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:32:43 pkhuong, if you remember about the system I ask asking few days back , from python to lisp with a new on memory db, I managed to write some code to test the speed difference 16:33:33 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:33:49 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan0215.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:33:57 pkhuong, the python code takes 6+ hours 16:34:17 pkhuong, lisp code is doing < 3 minutes 16:34:20 :D 16:34:34 any details kushal? 16:34:53 that's awesome. I suppose the usual way in python would be to go through something like numpy or a C extension. 16:34:58 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:35:39 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 16:36:22 Dawgmatix, the system mostly matches few values of a database row based on input against some other rows from a database 16:36:55 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:56 number of rows we are comparing are like 1300000+ 16:37:15 oic 16:37:16 now doing that using Django orm was slow 16:37:36 are you fitting the entire db in memory? 16:38:10 Dawgmatix, no, only the portions (and columns I need) on a datastructure , it is taking around 215MB 16:38:34 so the in memory python version of that data is taking 6 hours? 16:38:47 (just trying to understand the performance gap) 16:38:56 (as a person who uses both lisp and python) 16:39:18 where is the python code spending its time? 16:39:23 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Client Quit] 16:39:27 Dawgmatix, no 16:39:55 ah okay 16:40:02 Fade, mostly it was lacking in memory db part and object creation seems to be slow + ORM issue 16:40:08 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 16:40:25 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:40:29 functioncall overhead in python can be non-trivial. 16:40:48 but i'm kind of surprised that you're seeing that much speedup. 16:41:06 yeah but this is also comparing in-memory for lisp to on disk for python 16:41:32 another big issue is writing back of data, ORM does each row in a separate transaction , here everything goes on a single one 16:41:42 -!- gz` [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 16:42:00 -!- gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:42:14 yeah kushal -> django orm is great for quickly prototyping things in a day 16:42:36 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:42:45 not so much for perf. it encourages to much back and forth traffic between the db and the app 16:44:03 -!- symbole [~user@216.214.176.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:34 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 16:45:34 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 16:45:34 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:46:51 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:46:57 Dawgmatix, yes 16:47:40 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:48:47 how are you talking to the database from lisp? 16:52:26 Fade, clsql 16:53:23 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:56:37 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:57:08 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:57:27 Dawgmatix: heh... have you seen Ruby's ActiveRecord? 16:58:11 (regarding "performance being not amusing") 16:59:01 at this point making fun of ruby on performance grounds is sort of like punching a handicapped child in the nose. 16:59:10 heh 16:59:24 a quick slime annoyance: so I (setq pop-up-frames t) in my .emacs. normal emacs popups (help, completion, the works) work great, in that their frames go poof when I press 'q' or whatever is relevant. slime popups (the inspector, for instance), however, leave their frames behind. any quick cure? 16:59:25 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:59:31 Fade: the thing is that AR isn't slow because of Ruby 16:59:55 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-lumdprpjswhsoxyw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:00:09 there are a lot of other ORMs for ruby that beat it in performance in orders of magnitude :) 17:00:33 cmm: don't know about quick, but let me see 17:01:23 I only have one professional experience with ruby, and it turned out that a lot of the issues we were being brought in to look at turned out to be rooted in the fact that the ruby vm was dog slow. 17:01:26 AFAIK AR's original developers considered things like JOINS or complex queries to be not interesting for them and thus a lot of stuff that the RDBMS can do for you is done inside library code 17:01:43 ovedone the quick factor a little, yeah, sorry about that :) 17:01:56 so I kind of concluded that building complex applications in ruby was a zero sum game, from a performance perspective. 17:01:57 Fade: If you still have contact with that project, suggest them JRuby if they need speed :) 17:02:15 we already moved them from ruby to a combination of python and CL. 17:02:28 Ruby <=1.8 used to walk AST trees during executions 17:02:53 i wonder how setting pop-up-frames might be useful, i've already got a bunch of frames and they're multiplying 17:03:15 heh 17:03:44 *p_l|uni* is usually lost in windows, still haven't found a concise documentation on how to navigate between them... 17:03:44 if there's a next iteration, i'd like to get rid of the python. 17:03:45 stassats: enable frame-pop ? 17:03:50 I guess we'll see how it goes. :) 17:03:56 stassats: or disable ? 17:04:06 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:04:41 stassats: i think there are two kinds of (at least 2, wouldn't be surprised if there were more) frame pop handlers in emacs 17:04:47 stassats: I'm trying to harness the supposed amazing power of awesome 17:05:13 I like awesome quite a bit, actually. The first tiled wm that I find pleasant 17:05:27 yeah, me too. 17:05:39 #lisp is useful :) 17:05:43 now to sort out the emacs popups and I'll be all set 17:06:22 -!- yakov_ [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:31 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:08:53 p_l|uni: have you done a lot of work in ruby? 17:10:07 Fade: Some 17:10:14 Fade: it saved my bacon once 17:10:35 how so? 17:10:37 I have a ruby fan who works with me on python code base and then went to RubyConf India for a talk and gave a talk on why django is than Rails :p 17:10:45 people thought of killing him 17:10:59 -!- konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:11:06 you're missing a mofifier in there somewhere, kushal 17:11:08 django accidentally than Rails? 17:11:13 Fade: we had less than a week to move from "Excel file on shared volume" to "something that works" 17:11:38 the whole thing was running in developement mode with me looking at error console, but it ran 17:11:46 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 17:11:47 hah 17:12:03 including modifying the core database schema in middle of work 17:12:11 cmm: ok, i don't see a quick way, but basically you need to look at what all those commands are doing and what slime isn't doing 17:12:15 Fade, :p 17:12:19 though i'm not impressed by what they're doing 17:12:30 kushal: his message was django was better or worse than rails? 17:12:36 sorry p_l was away 17:12:42 *better* 17:12:44 stassats: according to google, noone is 17:12:53 Fade, better 17:13:00 ahh 17:13:09 but he is a ruby fan 17:13:11 oh well, thank you in any case 17:13:33 some emacs commands don't respect it either, like backtrace 17:13:50 i've found most frameworks that spit out a database schema automagically sort of deficient when it gets beyond "prototype to impress the client". 17:14:03 true@fade 17:14:09 Fade, yup 17:14:11 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:29 i think theyre great for the phase when youre trying to discover "will this sh** make money?" 17:14:47 unless the answer is "yes" in which case, you're already in trouble. 17:14:49 lol 17:14:55 :) 17:15:09 Fade: that's why I prefer DataMapper and Sequel. The first is similar a little to how some CL libs work with single place to generate both schema and data object, and the other is more of a very thin layer on top of SQL 17:15:23 (prefer to ActiveRecord, that's when I'm working with Ruby) 17:15:34 most startups who do get into the money then end up hiring serious engineers to fix their sins :D 17:15:34 p_l|uni: do you use lisp for any web projects? 17:16:09 Fade: right now I'm trying to do that :) 17:16:15 what stack are you using? 17:16:19 building my own framework, though 17:16:19 hunchentoot? 17:16:26 ah a true lisper ;) 17:16:39 (Hunchentoot + whatever ends on top, though defservice seems to become the routing layer of choice) 17:16:39 *Fade* has been fighting with UCW this week. 17:16:47 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.183] has joined #lisp 17:17:16 havent heard of defservice but then ive been missing from the lisp world for some time. 17:17:33 defservice is that allegro thing? 17:18:03 Portable, now. 17:18:07 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:24 as for lisp frameworks in general, I've been thinking of writing something that could be Lisp's equivalent of Ruby's Rack 17:18:46 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:18:52 Fade: there's a very thin layer of code to port it to different servers, and hunchentoot support is already available in pf's branch of it 17:18:53 hunchentoot is that, but it ships with a bunch of stuff on top 17:18:59 "is that, in a way" 17:19:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:19:23 antifuchs: I was thinking of splicing Hunchentoot's API and making it a separate compat library 17:19:55 p_l|uni: where can I read about it? 17:20:03 I suggest you talk to edi and H4ns first. I got the impression they might be interested in this change (: 17:20:08 at least H4ns might be (: 17:20:13 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-103-252-153.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:20:17 can I use Hunchentoot with sbcl ? 17:20:20 Fade: about defservice? 17:20:25 yes kushal 17:20:25 kushal: yes 17:20:29 kushal: SBCL works wonderfully for that 17:20:30 it works pretty well 17:20:42 insofar as lisp frameworks go, I think there's already some good tech for various pieces of the puzzle. it may be just down to an integration thing, like they did with TurboGears. 17:20:50 p_l|uni: yeah 17:20:54 totally agree fade 17:21:18 what's missing is documentation for a lot of those pieces. 17:21:19 Fade: http://github.com/pf/defservice 17:21:29 Fade: and a spiffy web page :) 17:21:36 UCW is very cool, but the available docs are largely conflictin/out of date. 17:21:41 something that puts templating + url routing and throws in some documentation and a web 2.0ish website 17:21:45 everybody is agreeing with everyone, where's fun in that? 17:21:54 lol 17:22:04 stassats: just wait until people start discussing which ORM to use (: 17:22:06 yeah, UCW is pretty cool - what I'm considering right now is somewhat similar to Components in it 17:22:18 antifuchs: that's easy: none 17:22:26 stassats: hah 17:22:28 when ucw was released, segv had a kickstarter script that started it up and started swank so you could connect to the image with slime. 17:22:34 which was unique and useful. 17:23:08 I believe he took that from araneida (: 17:23:16 well, it was super neat. 17:23:17 lol 17:23:27 *Xach* shivers 17:23:30 also, xach's script is excellent 17:23:38 which script? 17:23:45 he has it on his blog 17:23:58 http://xach.livejournal.com/215066.html 17:24:09 *p_l|uni* personally considers looking into Ruby again, if only to get some dough to fund work on Lisp-based stuff :0 17:24:16 (I use a separate tmux session for this nowadays) 17:24:58 p_l|uni: well, UCW could use more hands 17:25:08 drewc and unknown_lamer maintain it. 17:25:31 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-132-91.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:47 antifuchs: tmux? 17:26:06 time-machine unix? 17:26:09 yeah, it's like screen but better in some parts, and you can google for it (: 17:26:15 "terminal multiplexer" 17:26:15 sure 17:26:30 I tend to use screen :) 17:26:50 leave an emacs/slime attached to the app, get the control interface for free! 17:27:11 you mean the destruction mechanism? 17:27:40 heh 17:28:07 Fade: yeah, tmux makes it easier for me as I always have it running on that server anyway... screen-in-screen annoyed me too much one day. I can share my config, it's not very different from what xach has there, though 17:28:23 *Fade* nods 17:28:43 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:28:44 gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:56 tmux and screen are, as far as I can tell, interchangeable. Except you can't have clients with different active screens on tmux 17:29:19 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:29:21 screen -x can be quite useful when debugging. 17:30:12 Or when you have to persuade the bots to reconnect. :-/ 17:30:33 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:30:48 anyone use kernel here ? 17:31:10 homie, now what is kernel ? 17:31:21 another lisp 17:31:24 oh 17:31:27 why that nae 17:31:36 it start confusion 17:31:39 * starts 17:31:43 colonel would be a better name 17:32:07 -!- davazp [~user@83.54.165.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:08 with vau calculus and source-to-target macros, which are called micros or so 17:32:11 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:32:17 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:23 so like runtime macros.... 17:32:32 Fade: I'm currently looking at my own, but it will mostly reuse existing components... UCW is partially the inspiration, though 17:32:33 Or "kernal", since I've only seen that spelling in C=64 documentation. 17:32:35 dlowe: I like the session separation. what I used to do in a separate screen I do in a tmux session now, and connecting to that is a matter of keystrokes (: 17:32:42 ah, cooking is almost finished , will be back 17:32:58 p_l|uni: I'd like to see what you have when you're ready to show it. 17:33:09 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:16 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:33:55 lnostdal's symbolicweb looks very neat 17:34:02 have you looked at that? 17:34:16 yes, but haven't checked lately 17:34:28 I think he's working on it again after a hiatus. 17:34:38 i think we previously agreed that programming languages should be named like PL-3569, to avoid any possible confusion and to make googling easier 17:34:50 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:09 Mine is different in the way that I decided to drop playing with certain advanced techniques (no CPS, for example) and try to get it running first 17:36:05 is there any particular reason why you didn't just use UCW as a base? 17:36:29 Fade: got rather confused by available docs 17:36:36 I know the feeling. :( 17:36:56 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:37:09 And I recall only one page (which I can't find) that showed how to use UCW without CPS in a way that actually made sense 17:37:22 so I'm kinda building mine based on what I've read about UCW :D 17:37:22 the trac practically exists to put users on the wrong path. 17:37:44 the only docs that are even remotely current are the getting_started.txt file in the distribution. 17:37:55 and that doc only covers the first 'chapter'. 17:38:08 Fade: I still have UCW on my hard disk, from QL 17:38:31 ql has symbolicweb, too. :) 17:38:47 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-87-127.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:40:42 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:40:47 ql is not out yet, and already "it's in ql!" is not at all a sign of suitability for purpose 17:40:56 bah 17:41:23 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066255.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:41:40 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:41:41 so far it's proving to be very suited to my purposes. 17:41:42 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:41:43 *Fade* shrugs 17:42:00 if only you could get quicklisp from asdf-install 17:42:05 heh 17:42:36 Is it permissible for an implementation to add format directives, making strings that would otherwise be illegal format specifiers legal. 17:42:59 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:43:33 nothing is true, everything is permitted. 17:43:40 or something. 17:43:48 your question just turned my brain inside-out. 17:44:28 I.e. can an implementation implement this: http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/lost-u-directive/ 17:44:28 i don't remember ever encountering such permission while reading pages on format 17:44:37 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:37 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:44:37 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 17:44:39 without becoming non-conformant. 17:44:40 but anyway, there's ~// 17:45:07 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010d00.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:31 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:45:34 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:45:45 I'd say the spirit of the spec _should_ be "no way" 17:46:22 gigamonkey: if it documents the extension as an implementation-dependant one, then yes 17:46:25 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:47 unless you find language that explicitly forbids implementation specific extensions for format 17:46:58 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:47:14 Okay, free beer to the first implementor to add ~U to their implementation. ;-) 17:47:18 hullo 17:47:45 eg. there are something extensions that are explicitly forbidden: something about defclass at least 17:48:20 "A conforming implementation shall be accompanied by a document that separately describes any features accepted by the implementation that are not specified in this standard, but that do not cause any ambiguity or contradiction when added to the language standard. Such extensions shall be described as being ``extensions to Common Lisp as specified by ANSI <>.'' " 17:48:20 gigamonkey: sexy :) 17:48:40 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:49:31 (defun cl-user::u (stream arg column at) (princ (case (floor (log arg 10)) (3 "kilo") (-3 "milli") (t "")) stream)) (format t "~/u/meter ~/u/meter" 1000 0.001) => kilometer millimeter 17:50:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:56 Heh. FORMAT should have been specified so that any non standard character after a ~ (and suitable :, @, and arguments) gets dispatched to a user-modifiable table. 17:51:09 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:18 Just to get rid of those pesky //s 17:51:20 i keep attempting to use FROMAT. 17:51:35 sorry 17:51:49 gigamonkey: yeah, because it's not hard enough to understand format control-strings 17:52:28 Bronsa [~bronsa@host190-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:53:49 there's always the (format nil #"unexpectedly alter this ~U string" foo) approach... 17:54:04 oh dear 17:54:12 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:31 -!- splittist [~John@146-14.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: not recommending it, just sayin'] 17:55:19 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b0e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:47 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59:44 something like (format t "~distance/si/" 1000) => 1 kilometer would be more interesting 17:59:56 though you obviously pass "distance" like that 18:00:05 can't 18:00:29 probably "~/si:distance/" 18:00:40 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:01:17 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 18:02:05 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:03:08 kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:16 ecl has a SI package already, doesn't it? 18:03:32 yup 18:04:00 well, screw ECL! 18:04:18 boo. it is trying hard to unscrew itself. 18:04:56 -!- antivigilante__ [~antivigil@174-26-123-44.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:04:56 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-123-44.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:05:15 then it can have such a thing built-in without needing an additional package 18:05:17 stassats: ~distance/si/ should work, afaik... 18:05:26 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:05:34 p_l|uni: really? how about ~d being a format directive? 18:06:17 stassats: it should read-in the whole ~distance/si/ before dispatching, otherwise it's not ANSI-compatible 18:06:23 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 18:06:36 and it can be SIU, for Système International d'Unités 18:06:42 p_l|uni: oh really? 18:06:48 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:07:19 stassats: FORMAT dispatches on whole tokens, not per char. in ~d~S the second tilde causes it to recognize a new token 18:07:45 *stassats* moves his lips to the right 18:07:45 at least that's what I understood from CLHS 18:08:15 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:08:34 you know, that's the reason why you have to quote chars with ' in format 18:09:33 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:10:04 -!- vandemar [bella@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:11:02 -!- djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has left #lisp 18:11:55 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:41 ok, apparently I'm wrong, however the spec still talks about extra parameters being passed... 18:14:09 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925257556.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:14:26 the spec also talks about what might constitute parameters: signed integers, chars, quoted with ', V and # 18:14:28 ... ok, managed something 18:15:22 "~'t'e's't@:/test-format/" <--- gave me parameter list of (stream format-arg T T (#\t #\e #\s #\t)) 18:15:28 rfg [~rfg@82.132.136.152] has joined #lisp 18:15:40 Jabberwock [~Jens@f050073153.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:16:42 which is illegal 18:17:17 antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-94-63.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:21 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:17:26 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:31 antivigilante__ [~antivigil@174-26-94-63.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:26 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066255.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:18:37 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:19:05 -!- Jabberwock is now known as Jabberwockey 18:19:52 wvdschel [~wim@c080h249.guest.ugent.be] has joined #lisp 18:20:58 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:21:29 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:21:39 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:23:21 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:23:25 hmm... it seems ok in CLHS... guess I'd need some spec-expert on that 18:23:42 I would have expected rather more commas 18:24:16 clhs 22.3 18:24:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 18:24:24 starting with "A directive consists of a tilde," 18:24:33 -!- rfg [~rfg@82.132.136.152] has quit [Quit: rfg] 18:24:40 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:25:32 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:43 stassats / tcr : slime's swank:compile-file-for-emacs 18:25:57 it has a load-p parameter, and the docstring says "if load-p is true, load the file" 18:26:13 however, I think the current implementation does not load the file if load-p is true 18:27:04 (format t "~'t,'e,'s,'t@:/test-format/" "blah") ; This is compliant, then 18:27:12 and ugly 18:27:37 jmbr [~jmbr@181.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:27:44 Krystof: true, it passes it around 18:28:09 you complaining about the dosctring being incorrect, or that you relied on that feature? 18:28:33 (format t "~'k/si-units::distance/" 1000) ; this looks sensible... somewhat 18:28:47 what does k mean? 18:28:53 p_l: no need for :: in ~// 18:29:20 stassats: it makes my reimplementation of the swank protocol in a different language ... difficult :-) 18:29:23 p_l: ~// plays by its own rules. 18:29:34 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:29:53 I want to know if I need to worry about the protocol changing much 18:30:34 vandemar [holy@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has joined #lisp 18:30:55 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:31:20 currently, it's a bit awkward how compile-file-for-emacs deals with that loadp 18:31:44 yes! 18:31:47 it passes it back to emacs and then emacs decides whether to load or not 18:32:01 I can emulate this behaviour 18:32:47 but I am confusled 18:33:45 it's for the case if something terrible happens during compilation so that you can bail out of loading it 18:36:35 -!- s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-205-165.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:36:49 i guess it should be modified to something like: either take t or :ask-on-failure 18:36:53 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-205-165.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:55 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:47:15 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:39 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:49:25 -!- wvdschel is now known as jaspervdj2 18:49:27 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:50:34 stassats: ok, fine :-) I will go with that kind of interpretation for now 18:50:56 -!- jaspervdj2 is now known as wvdschel 18:52:18 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:23 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:36 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:53:06 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:47 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-205-165.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:59:26 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-205-165.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:29 -!- wvdschel is now known as jaspervdj2 19:01:09 -!- jaspervdj2 is now known as wvdschel 19:06:13 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:06:27 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:36 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host190-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:08:04 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:08:20 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:08:37 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-81-129.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:09:28 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:42 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:46 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:14:06 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:15:59 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:16:47 -!- sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has quit [Quit: sellout] 19:17:05 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-103-252-153.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:46 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:23:04 -!- kmc [clozure@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 19:23:20 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 19:23:23 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:24:31 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:27:05 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:38 -!- benny [~benny@i577A838A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:04 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:16 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:30:30 Sikander [~soemraws@5356F49F.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 19:30:38 Hi 19:31:04 Is there such a thing in loop like "continue" in languages like C? 19:31:38 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 19:31:39 Just use IF, WHEN, UNLESS, and that ilk? 19:32:14 Hmmm, then that would become quite deeply nested I think... 19:32:17 (No, I don't remember there being any non-local loop control like that beyond LOOP-FINISH.) 19:32:36 Probably the best way is just a do (cond ...) or something 19:33:09 (tagbody . :next-iteration) then use (go :next-iteration)  if it's all after a DO 19:33:28 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-067.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 19:33:36 notice that DOLIST etc. all expand to an implicit tagbody so you get that for free 19:33:55 tcr: Ah, thanks. I'll give it a try 19:35:12 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 19:35:28 Another question: I've recently left vim and am using emacs 100% of the time so I can use slime. I noticed, though, that indentation is not "automatic". I have to press C-M-q for every sexp I wrote. Is that normal? 19:35:53 You indent with TAB 19:35:55 Hum. Some people actually use (explicit or implicit) tagbody?... 19:35:57 Note that "recently" is "three days ago" 19:36:07 tcr: So... no auto-indent? 19:36:12 Hexstream: All the time sure, usually I use PROG though 19:36:15 Sikander: C-j 19:36:25 Sikander: You can bind RET to newline-and-indent 19:36:28 PROG? That's even more surprising o_o 19:36:37 tcr: is the :next-iteration part of the standard? 19:36:57 p_l|uni: No. 19:37:13 tcr, Hexstream : Ok, thanks 19:37:13 (dolist (e list) :continue ... (go :continue) ...) 19:37:15 Hexstream: explicit tagbody is very useful 19:37:22 He's suggesting you use :next-iteration as a tag which you then GO to. 19:37:29 i find that progv for multiple value processing, produces large assembly code 19:37:29 ah 19:37:39 wbooze: Mu. 19:37:40 larger then all the other alternatives... 19:38:04 -!- wvdschel [~wim@c080h249.guest.ugent.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:38:09 with many jumps 19:38:19 don't know why is that so 19:38:24 Sikander: I bound TAB to slime-indent-and-complete-symbol which indents if used at whitespace, but completes at non-whitechar 19:38:56 p_l|uni: Hum. Can you lisppaste some use-case(s) for TAGBODY? 19:39:09 Hexstream: Also C-c M-q in Sline reindent the whole current defun 19:40:03 tcr: Oh nice, I knew that existed but didn't remember the invocation. 19:40:37 That was supposed to go to Sikander actually :-) 19:40:48 Hexstream: do you have SBCL sources on hand? :D 19:41:02 tcr: Uh, actually C-c M-q doesn't seem to work... 19:41:29 Hexstream: I think it's in the slime-editing- contrib 19:41:37 if yes, then the reader implementation in SBCL is an example of FSM done with tagbody (or maybe it was labels and I just misremember? there were a lot of GO) 19:41:55 p_l|uni: Yes, but I'm presuming most uses of TAGBODY in SBCL source would be for maximal performance or to thwart bootstrapping issues. 19:41:58 tcr: Thanks, especially the TAB binding seems interesting 19:42:22 Hexstream: FSMs are considered one of those places where "GOTO is most advised" :) 19:42:28 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:41 PROG is nice for iteration macros to expand to, for writing FSMs in general, and for the continue bit 19:42:41 benny` [~benny@i577A1240.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:42 minion: Tell Hexstream about paste 115308, please. 19:42:43 Hexstream: direct your attention towards Paste number 115308: "A use of TAGBODY" by nyef in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/115308 19:43:25 ah and for the C-style multiple-cleanup-entry-points bits 19:44:01 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:44:25 FSMs indeed sound like a perfect use of TAGBODY. I probably messed around with closures when TAGBODY would have been more appropriate in a few cases. 19:44:39 you could say that you want TAGBODY (or GOTO in general) when your control flow goes sideways, not up or down 19:44:42 Arguably, that example is, implicitly, a state machine, and I didn't try overly hard to find an alternate way to express what it does. 19:45:13 (Mutually tail-recursive co-routines, maybe?) 19:45:38 sounds like more work for little result 19:45:47 Yeah, something like that. 19:46:11 nyef: Hum... ";; Can't believe I'm using a tagbody... " 19:46:33 Yup! Don't think I've used one before or since. 19:46:38 not to mention that the tail-recursive bit might end up being implemented the PAIP way. That is, a TAGBODY 19:46:42 That only reinforces my preexisting belief that TAGBODY is not actually used a lot ;P 19:47:12 tcr: Hum... how do you bind slime-indent-and-complete-symbol to TAB only in lisp mode? 19:47:23 It -is- used a lot... Just not directly. 19:47:45 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:47:52 Sikander: Monkey with the keymap in the slime-mode hook? 19:48:14 Sikander: Setting slime-complete-symbol-function to it is one way 19:48:38 Sorry for the stupid questions. I just moved to emacs three days ago 19:49:21 Sikander: (add-hook 'lisp-mode-hook '(lambda () bindings-here)) 19:49:26 nyef: I'd like to have coroutines available just for finding out what freedom of expression it would yield (there we go) 19:49:51 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:49:59 ska`` [~user@ppp-58-8-214-106.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 19:50:26 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:51:03 I'm actually looking at that project again now. I remember why I stopped hacking on it, and roughly where I left it, but not the details. 19:51:44 Hexstream: Thanks 19:51:53 Hexstream: i've used tagbody a decent few times, but almost always in iteration macros and series-functions. there are some examples in the series documentation. 19:52:04 Hexstream: Out of curiosity: Why do you need the quote before the (lambda () ... ? 19:52:18 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:52:23 hdurer_: Because this is emacs lisp... 19:52:44 hdurer_: You don't need it, that it works reflects the ancienty of emacs lisp 19:52:52 Actually I don't know much about emacs lisp. Maybe it's not necessary. 19:53:17 It used to be the case that lambdas were *literally* lists with the symbol LAMBDA in its CAR, specially treated by the interpreter 19:53:24 I may have copy/pasted that from somewhere and kept it cargo-cult style. 19:53:40 That was even the case in the early stage of CL 19:54:13 tcr: used to be? :report? :) 19:54:16 Good Ol' (broken) Days 19:54:31 :report, ((lambda (x) x) 5) 19:54:41 there's other places I can't recall. 19:54:44 Thanks 19:54:53 Uhm sykopomp that's besides the point 19:55:28 how so? 19:55:56 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:56:00 Because I'm talking of something else? 19:56:16 (functionp '(lambda (x) x)) => t, in elisp 19:57:00 I guess the case with :report and ((lambda ...)) is more static. I see your point. Sorry about that. :) 19:57:27 the case about :report is that it basically specifies the macro to expand to #',report 19:57:49 bigjust [~user@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:50 hm no that's wrong, :report is just broken :-) 19:57:57 indeed :) 19:58:12 Davidbrcz_ [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:58:15 I think there's another place where only -lambda expressions- are accepted. 19:58:18 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 19:58:31 it's on my blog 19:58:33 faux [~user@109.58.32.177.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 19:59:11 http://trittweiler.blogspot.com/2008/12/on-relationship-of-lambda-and-lambda.html 19:59:13 ahh, :print-function and :print-object, too. 19:59:25 is that all of the places? 19:59:46 antifuchs: is Clucumber ready to use? 20:00:01 I guess FUNCTION also accepts lambda expressions, too. 20:00:04 p_l|uni: it's good enough for cl-beanstalk and cxml-rpc (: 20:00:22 but that's a bit different. 20:00:30 p_l|uni: so yeah, it should work, and I'm fairly confident it'll make you happy 20:00:37 ... I have a sizable chunk of Smalltalk implementation in Lisp. What, if anything, should I do with it? 20:00:47 -!- r4v5 [~r4v5@69.211.14.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:50 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:04 nyef: Do you have the GUI IDE working yet? 20:01:07 (I tested with cucumber 0.8.x; if you're using a newer one and it doesn't work, please let me know) 20:01:34 sykopomp: No, it's actually just the tools to bootstrap an image and a compiler. 20:01:41 antifuchs: at the moment I've got to bugfix the program I'm going to replace, but I'll give you feedback when the real project starts 20:01:50 yay! 20:02:05 Throwing an interpreter together should be straightforward, though, which would "just" leave defining the image. 20:02:22 Adamant_ [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:22 -!- Adamant_ [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:02:22 Adamant_ [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:02:42 nyef: that sounds cool. Do you have the code up somewher? 20:02:45 somewhere* 20:02:50 pkhuong_ [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:21 ... Not that I see. 20:03:25 Why? 20:03:32 dostoyev1ky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 20:03:37 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:56 srcerer_ [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:04 boysetsf1og [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:04:18 fmeyer_ [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 20:04:29 franki^_ [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:33 egn_ [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:43 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:04:43 Sikander_ [~soemraws@5356F49F.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 20:05:13 kuwabara1 [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 20:05:23 tcr: Typo in your post: "Howsoever" 20:06:20 stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:06:37 (That really should have been a private message...) 20:06:40 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:40 -!- abend [~user@alpha.muted.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:06:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:40 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:40 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:40 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok094010.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:40 -!- franki^ [~frankie@unaffiliated/franki] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:40 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:40 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:41 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:41 -!- boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:41 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:41 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356F49F.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:41 -!- kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:41 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:41 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:41 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06:50 seejay` [~seejay@plexyplanet.org] has joined #lisp 20:06:54 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-195-64.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 20:06:58 -!- qebab [~robb@jaguar.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 20:07:00 debiandebian_ [~chatzilla@ntszok094010.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:07:01 -!- debiandebian_ is now known as debiandebian 20:07:07 qebab [~robb@jaguar.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 20:07:11 cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:41 -!- Sikander_ is now known as Sikander 20:08:03 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:08:13 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.183] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:13 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:13 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-8-214-106.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:13 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-7-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:13 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:13 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:13 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.77.168] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:13 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:14 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:14 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:14 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:14 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:14 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:14 -!- seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:14 -!- siccegge [~siccegge@faui49j.informatik.uni-erlangen.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:08:14 -!- Adamant_ is now known as Adamant 20:08:29 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:08:29 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 20:08:40 nyef: It would be interesting to look at a nascent language implementation project like that. 20:08:53 since I'm trying to learn this stuff and working on my own toys. 20:08:54 Thanks for the help. Goodnight 20:09:00 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356F49F.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:02 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:09:10 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:09:15 Well, the absolute start of it should be somewhere... 20:09:46 jumping into CCL and SBCL's compiler and runtime isn't as nice, since you have literally decades of development layered on the basic ideas, and odd decisions that were made in reaction to odd problems... 20:09:46 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:51 sykopomp: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/bootstrap.lisp 20:09:57 That's what it was at one point. 20:10:02 jsoft_ [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has joined #lisp 20:10:02 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:02 siccegge [~siccegge@faui49j.informatik.uni-erlangen.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:07 Odin- [~sbkhh@130.208.131.159] has joined #lisp 20:10:14 xinming [~hyy@122.238.77.168] has joined #lisp 20:10:31 Heh. Yeah, I /still/ don't understand great swathes of SBCL's compiler, though I'm getting better. 20:10:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:42 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:10:47 Whoa SHIT. I didn't know DEFINE-SYMBOL-MACRO existed! The page for SYMBOL-MACROLET "helpfully" doesn't list it in its "see also". 20:10:50 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-205-165.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:11:04 Hexstream: toplevel lexical variables! Woo! 20:11:07 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 20:11:35 nyef: "When in danger, when in doubt: Run in circles, scream and shout!" :) 20:12:14 Gotta admit, I don't remember the last time I wished there existed a way to define global symbol-macros... 20:12:18 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-209-105.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:20 Yeah. Swiped that from a webcomic ages back. 20:13:23 sykopomp: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/speakeasy-smalltalk-snapshot.tgz 20:13:36 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:30 nyef: nice, thanks! 20:14:54 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-81-129.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:15:21 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 20:15:44 jdz [~jdz@host183-106-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:15:54 sykopomp: I'd be interested to hear what you think of it as a whole. 20:16:13 Even if it /was/ written before my current coding style came together... 20:16:22 nyef: I'll look at the code once I get home, then :) 20:16:32 *sykopomp* sneaks a peek now, though. 20:17:54 sykopomp: You might also find http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/sorcery.tgz to be of interest... or to be a disgusting kludge. Possibly both. 20:18:54 what's that? 20:19:08 -!- egn_ is now known as egn 20:19:19 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:19:24 Generating win32 executables by hacking up on SBCL's assembler. 20:19:53 Heh. The compiler really is reminiscent of the LiSP compilers. I guess that's still how things are done :D 20:20:11 It is when you're not optimizing heavily. 20:20:42 It's basically a syntax-directed translation pass (if you have a Dragon book, the an explanation will be in there), straight to assembler. 20:21:19 so you don't have any IRs here? 20:21:23 (is that what you mean?) 20:21:27 varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:21:28 The Python compiler appears to be a syntax-directed translation to IR1, some optimization passes, another translation to IR2, and then assembly. 20:21:38 Right, the only IR is a symbolic assembly language. 20:21:45 gotcha 20:22:08 Engineering a Compiler was at least kind enough to explain that part of compiler architecture clearly. :) 20:22:24 I needed something simple enough to implement, and I was targeting a rather basic bytecode set. 20:22:49 Heh. Again, we ended up with some very different books on our shelves, even if some of them share titles. :-P 20:23:48 *p_l|uni* unfortunately has to deal with the fact that his university scrapped the course on compiler design. The Library still got the books, yummy! 20:24:18 Compilers seem so fun :) 20:24:38 I'm still struggling with my 'fast' pretreating-interpreter. 20:25:44 The other thing about simple compilers is that they so rarely deal with things like object file formats and such. 20:26:15 that's a nasty minefield by itself? 20:27:05 It can be. Consider the case of dumping a FASL and loading it in Lisp. 20:27:17 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:27:25 *p_l|uni* munches on a cpu-design book.  ^_- 20:27:32 gigamonk` [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:41 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:28:44 nyef: I don't know the issues involving FASLs. 20:28:58 I ended up knowing more about Pentium 4 than I ever wanted to from that cpu-book binge. 20:28:59 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:29:07 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:29:13 To me, FASLs are magic files. You load them up, and freakin' fairies start flying around you. 20:29:13 francogrex [~user@109.130.113.109] has joined #lisp 20:29:25 and for some reason, SBCL likes putting them in my filesystem! 20:29:48 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 20:29:48 nyef: could you elaborate? I have some guesses, but nothing certain 20:30:15 can sbcl work without fasls? 20:30:17 It's a serialization format for lisp objects, including machine code. 20:30:35 hi, how can I use directory to list all the "children" files in a folder like: (directory "c:/emacs/scripts/*/*.*") ? 20:31:03 oh this one is great 20:31:07 if there are deeply nested folders ? 20:31:08 It can handle arbitrary recursive structures, has to deal with MAKE-LOAD-FORM, /et cetera/. 20:31:14 francogrex: I'd go with cl-fad. It might be not the best library out there, but it manages that. 20:31:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:45 Plus if you need to have your code-objects refer to random objects that may not even be part of the heap? It can get quite nasty. 20:33:00 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:33:41 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 20:35:02 p_l|uni: yeah seems like the answer is cl fad with recursive applic 20:35:25 recursive applic? take a look at fad:walk-directory 20:36:05 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:37:32 francogrex: have you tried (directory "c:/emacs/scripts/**/*.*")? 20:38:02 srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 20:38:49 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:45 jdz: oh yeah! That goes very deep 20:40:52 nice 20:44:07 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 20:46:28 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:30 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.113.109] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:51:10 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 20:51:52 rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:18 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:00:24 -!- sie is now known as yomamma 21:01:11 -!- yomamma is now known as sie 21:06:20 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:46 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:30 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:24 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:05 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:10:26 -!- ska`` [~user@ppp-58-8-214-106.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:13:36 syddraf [~syddraf@DHCP-129-59-170-148.n1.vanderbilt.edu] has joined #lisp 21:14:08 How do I go about passing two lists to a function as arguments? 21:14:50 straightforwardly 21:14:56 like, if the function accepts 5 parameters, and you have lists of length 2 and 3? 21:15:32 I am taking two ordered pairs and calculating something from them. 21:16:16 It needs to accept (function '(1 2) '(3 4)) 21:16:46 mapcar 21:17:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:17:10 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:17:16 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #lisp 21:17:21 (mapcar #'function '(1 ...) '(2 ...)) 21:17:42 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-067.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:19:48 Ok. Thank you, Fade. 21:19:54 -!- syddraf [~syddraf@DHCP-129-59-170-148.n1.vanderbilt.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:20:37 and i still didn't understand what was the problem 21:20:50 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:22:13 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:22:48 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:48 -!- jdz [~jdz@host183-106-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:23:14 -!- faux [~user@109.58.32.177.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:17 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-067.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:23:41 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:17 -!- fmeyer_ [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 21:27:32 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:00 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 21:28:20 vng [~user@LRouen-151-73-4-166.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:28:23 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:02 Can anyone access the log 10.10.03 ? 21:30:26 Suaig [~chatzilla@131.128.199.162] has joined #lisp 21:31:04 vng yep 21:31:17 is it a blank page? 21:31:52 no very full for me 21:32:03 lol oh wait wrong year 21:32:47 Guthur: really? I can't access it. It's 0 KB 21:32:56 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:33:36 sorry I was looking at the wrong year 21:34:36 sbcl's describe is awfull 21:34:43 Guthur: Did you try to access it? 10.10.03 21:34:48 vng yep its empty 21:34:50 vng: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2010-10/lisp-2010.10.03.txt 21:35:33 stassats: not found! 21:35:59 stassats: sorry! It works 21:36:02 works her 21:36:07 her 21:36:11 stassats: thank you 21:36:11 here, damn 21:36:20 perhaps it's oscillating? 21:36:40 is it another log? 21:36:54 no, it's the log of #lisp 21:36:57 the mysterious case of the oscillating log 21:36:59 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:37:32 stassats: I usually access the log: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ 21:37:40 so do i 21:38:00 *stassats* has M-x lisp-log for that 21:38:02 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-178-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:38:49 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-98-200.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:39:17 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-98-200.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:39:38 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 21:39:38 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 21:39:38 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 21:39:50 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2B61.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:57 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:40:04 stassats: Can you show me that? Do you need to write something in .emacs for that? 21:40:29 indeed, you need to write it somewhere 21:41:00 stassats: what is it? 21:41:14 its definition, obviously 21:41:46 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115311 21:42:13 replace w3m-browse-url-other-window with whatever you want 21:42:32 i really like having linedit immediately available 21:42:48 stassats: thank you! 21:43:02 what is muffle-conditions ? 21:43:12 a conditions muffler 21:43:45 vng: browse-url might work 21:43:48 and compiler-note ? 21:43:58 a note emitted by the compiler 21:44:14 gee, am i helpful today 21:44:35 I'm looking for package name suggestions. I have a package that provides an interface to a set of project-specific data, and it is used by several other packages to query and manipulate the data. It's not much more than an abstraction layer over the database. How would you name that package? 21:45:15 wbooze`: presumably, if you connect the former to the letter, the latter will disappear 21:45:56 ah so it supresses warnings and such ? 21:46:05 austinh: "mysterious" 21:46:31 austinh: blingbling 21:46:49 at least that's what i gathered what it's doing from your description 21:46:50 austinh: intruder 21:46:55 maybe plural 21:46:56 stassats: it works nice! thanks again! 21:46:57 lol 21:46:59 Did I say something odd? 21:47:47 austinh: meta-boss ? 21:48:29 vng: and did you set the right time-zone? 21:48:44 good night 21:48:45 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010d00.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:48:50 nyef: Do you see much merit in the Smalltalk like IDE? 21:49:01 Munksgaard [~philip@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 21:49:27 stassats: No. I do it at once 21:49:54 Yes... and no. 21:49:56 konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has joined #lisp 21:50:08 i mean instead of "Europe/Moscow", "America/Phoenix" is the t-z of the log 21:50:19 It's really for a language like Smalltalk, not for a language like Lisp. 21:50:20 (or was at the time i wrote this) 21:50:28 nyef: Do you happen to be familiar with Domain Driven Design or Naked Objects? 21:50:46 Not especially, no. 21:50:58 I've at least heard of Naked Objects before, but that was a long time ago. 21:51:10 -!- Davidbrcz_ [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:51:14 uwww nudists 21:51:20 lol 21:51:20 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has left #lisp 21:51:28 One of trainers at work is a big advocate 21:51:43 He contacted me regarding Apache Isis 21:51:44 "The nudist camp shut down today, the sign on the gate said 'clothed 'till may'." 21:52:02 fiveop_ [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-139-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:14 It's java though which just doesn't get me very excited 21:52:17 vng` [~user@LRouen-151-73-4-166.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:52:54 Out of interest why would the smalltalk IDE not suit Lisp 21:53:16 *vng`* 's internet connection in his room is too bad! 21:53:27 Guthur: have you heard of Buzzword Driven Design? 21:53:36 hmmmm, a good question 21:53:36 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:53:38 -!- vng [~user@LRouen-151-73-4-166.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:54:06 stassats, yeah I know it has that air to it 21:54:10 stassats: Oh, is /that/ what all the "BDD" stuff I've been seeing is about? 21:54:16 dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has joined #lisp 21:54:24 perhaps 21:54:28 -!- fiveop_ [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-139-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:54:33 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-142-136.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:55:00 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-139-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:20 stassats: Done! Europe/Paris 21:56:05 -!- vng` is now known as vng 21:56:11 Guthur: have you seen Interlisp? 21:56:12 lol BDD seems to be DDD by another name 21:56:18 DDD? 21:56:28 Domain Driven Design 21:56:38 "Data Driven Debugger"? 21:56:43 francogrex [~user@109.130.113.109] has joined #lisp 21:56:51 "Binary Decision Diagram"? 21:57:13 TLA galore 21:57:16 and not "Data Display Debugger"? 21:57:44 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BF83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:57:57 Behavior Driven Development! 21:58:04 Guthur: anyway, I think some version of Interlisp used an IDE similar to the smalltalk one 21:58:12 Demonstrably Deficient Design? 21:58:22 Derp Derp Derp 21:58:36 p_l|uni, Having a look, cheers 21:58:42 InterLisp-D? 21:59:32 *p_l|uni* is mostly acquaintainted with BDD folks due to RSpec and similar test frameworks, though it's still TDD for him 21:59:56 I never really grok'd or accepted TDD :D 22:00:29 Bondage and Discipline Design must be fun 22:01:15 stassats: no, that's TDD, BDD is too relaxed for that 22:01:18 oh hah 22:01:25 wikipedia has a great description of BDD in it. 22:01:35 "BDD is a second-generation, outside-in, pull-based, multiple-stakeholder, multiple-scale, high-automation, agile methodology. It describes a cycle of interactions with well-defined outputs, resulting in the delivery of working, tested software that matters." 22:01:37 I got on with the guy quite well and was hoping to collaborate but I am having a little difficulty buying into either Domain Driven Design or a Java centric project 22:01:55 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-7-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:02:03 *sykopomp* dies a little inside. 22:02:14 -!- bigjust [~user@cei-gla-cpk2.coxinc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:14 sykopomp: oh, you mean the "buzzword-bingo" variant 22:02:19 sykopomp: well, sounds buzzword-compliant 22:02:25 indeed 22:02:45 sykopomp, where is that from, wiki? 22:02:56 Guthur: yup. 22:02:57 oh wait doh need to read more 22:03:05 sykopomp: those buzzword-bingo slogans already got me into discussion with Software Engineering prof. :D 22:03:44 p_l|uni: did you fight over definitions of buzzwords? 22:04:09 "That's not what OOP is!" 22:04:20 (is OOP still buzzwordy?) 22:04:26 is the assembly the form which get's to the machine ? 22:04:32 and i guess these people are serious 22:04:34 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:41 stassats: no, I fought over what "Agile Programming" is, which for me isn't really buzzword-compatible :) 22:04:42 or is there an optimization on hardware level possible too ? 22:04:49 and yes, he's got OOP hardon 22:04:58 wbooze`: yes, it's possible 22:05:02 ah 22:05:03 ok 22:05:12 I tried to post this in the newsgroup didn't go: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115312 any hints? 22:05:19 "We write down, in a semi-structured mostly-english, what we want the system to do, then we define a mapping from mostly-english phrases to test preconditions, actions, and postconditions, and and make it run. It's, like, COBOL, but newer!" 22:05:42 wbooze`: all modern x86 cpus do further optimization on small code blocks 22:05:50 ok 22:06:26 so is there something like a catcher for repetition blocks of the same form on hardware level ? 22:06:37 ^_^ 22:06:38 wbooze`: no, they reorder the code around 22:06:44 francogrex: use a use-value restart? 22:06:52 *Hraban* implemented cons and lists in C and has reached level 6 of LISP satori 22:07:02 what do you mean with reorder ? 22:07:23 Hraban: and you're still calling it 'LISP'? 22:07:26 try try try -> try 3 ? 22:07:37 sykopomp: well, it helps me understand the machine language behind it clearer 22:07:47 Hraban: 6th is the first level? 22:07:51 no, 1 is :P 22:08:12 wbooze`: execute the instructions in different order to maximize usage of available execution units (there might be different units that support different instructions), as well as reorder them based on storage locality 22:08:15 then what's at the top? 100th level? 22:08:24 stassats: +Inf 22:08:26 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:31 because, implementing linked lists in C isn't at all impressive 22:08:37 "level" is an unsigned 64-bit int :> 22:08:49 :( I only did it to make me understand it better 22:09:02 and it's not even related to Lisp 22:09:03 Hraban: IMHO Gentle Itroduction would help you more :P 22:09:08 ^ 22:09:09 So, for my database abstraction layer, I'm thinking of calling it [projectname]-databroker. 22:09:11 only tangentially 22:09:20 austinh: that sounds ok 22:09:26 no, I understand lisp, I just don't understand its behind-the-scene workings 22:09:38 minion: LiSP? 22:09:38 LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 22:09:40 (as in garbage collection, symbol management, cons creation, etc) 22:10:00 Xach: thanks 22:10:24 What's wrong with CLSQL, it seems rather mature and covers a lot of DBs 22:10:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:11:07 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.10.1 -- Are we there yet?] 22:11:42 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Quit: see ya] 22:12:20 Lizard46 [~Lizard46@173-166-26-206-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:28 Guthur: it had unresolved issues afaik 22:12:58 unresolvable? 22:13:18 does anybody here depend on the specified behaviour of hash tables which should grow by a specific amount, given the CLHS, if rehash-size is used? 22:13:31 ehu: that would be wacky 22:13:41 Xach: right. 22:14:16 Xach: I would like to defer handling of our hashes to the Java libraries, because they're much better tuned and suitable to the task than our own code. 22:14:34 p_l|uni, Still seems to be getting patches 22:14:35 Xach: but the problem is that they don't have a 'rehash-size' concept :-/ 22:14:46 Xach: so that's why I was asking. 22:14:51 Hraban: there are good books in garbage collection 22:14:53 ehu: if someone cares about hash-table-size being a specific value after a set of operations, they should get punched in the nose 22:14:53 ehu: "Such decisions are implementation-dependent, and these values only hints from the programmer to the implementation, and the implementation is permitted to ignore them." 22:15:13 that's about rehash-size and rehash-threshold 22:15:21 oh. nice. 22:15:30 let's leave that to Java then. 22:15:47 *ehu* wipes some custom code 22:15:52 p_l|uni: is BDD just developing with unit tests, but with strings in failure reports? 22:16:02 -!- stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:08 *stassats* eagerly awaits for a ten-fold performance increase 22:16:13 thanks! 22:16:42 sykopomp: more like instead of isolated unit tests, you make "stories" of what the user does, then turn them into tests that simulate said activities, then make it work 22:16:52 well, I definitely prefer the Java code, except for if we can do better in the context of our Lisp libraries. 22:17:04 however, general hashing isn't such a case, I think. 22:17:19 Java has non-locking hash tables 22:17:19 ehu: You work on ABCL, correct? 22:17:28 i do. 22:17:54 ehu: There seems to be an issue with trivial-garbage 22:18:11 that up to the package maintainers I suppose 22:18:13 ? 22:18:26 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-103-252-153.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:18:57 use-value combined with invoke-restart-interactively ? 22:19:07 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:19:32 I was a bit surprised to see one of the trivial packages having issues 22:19:53 they tend to be quite ubiquitous 22:20:49 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:20:57 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:32 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:22:51 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:59 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 22:23:28 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:24:07 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:30 -!- roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 22:26:07 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:26:18 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-139-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:26:42 ok here is what I came up with then, dunno if it's valid: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115312#1 22:29:41 Guthur: well, abcl has evolved a whole lot over the last two years. not all packages release that often. 22:30:37 francogrex: are your users too dumb to select the right restart themselves? 22:30:37 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:31:09 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:31:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:31:18 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-067.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:32:23 ehu: Understandable, hopefully it will continue to develop and packages will aim for that implementation as much as the others 22:33:08 stassats: no but here I am giving them the opportunity to select 22:33:10 *Xach* hopes quicklisp makes it easier to test things on ABCL 22:33:31 Xach, I was using QL as well 22:33:35 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-067.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:33:41 francogrex: where here? 22:33:53 That's how I found the issue, trying to build that zeromq stuff today 22:34:05 in the last post 22:34:24 I combine use-value with a restart 22:35:00 but why are you selecting it? 22:35:27 MultiMind [~moot@adsl-76-237-182-116.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:01 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:36:23 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:35 -!- ddevaal [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Quit: *goodbye weechat*] 22:37:02 i figured that when there will be a division by zero, will let the user select the value (it's the second part of the code, the annonated art) 22:37:11 part 22:37:22 (use-value (value) ... 22:37:26 I really would like to get a project going with that zeromq, but I've had enough pain with CL and windows so it wont be the project at work, I do not have enough time to continue trying to get a workable windows environment 22:37:59 francogrex: are my eyes deceiving me or there is "(invoke-restart-interactively 'use-value)"? 22:38:41 "Am I being paid to use windows? No. Would I have to pay to use windows? Yes. Would I voluntarily use windows under such circumstances? Not bloody likely." 22:38:44 it doesn't do anything except prompting 22:38:59 new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 22:39:06 hello, everyone 22:39:26 francogrex: and the answer to the question "can't your user select the right restart?" turns out to be "no." 22:39:36 nyef, I am fortunately, unfortunately depending on ones view, being paid to use windows 22:40:10 the right restart no, I just want to give them possibility to change the value 22:40:12 (Does this have anything to do with the amount of attention I pay to SBCL/Win32 problems? Absolutely.) 22:40:36 if anybody would pay me not to use windows, because that's what i do all the time 22:40:49 francogrex: so, the question is: why use restarts at all? 22:41:27 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:41:28 stassats: Because you get to hijack the implementation's quite excellent user-interaction code to prompt for the new value? 22:41:30 Unfortunately most corporations have an annoying tendency to deploy windows desktops 22:41:51 new-lisper: Hello. 22:41:57 stassats: how can I prompt them to enter their value of choice without that? 22:42:09 upon a divison by zero 22:42:21 francogrex: you just did it yourself 22:43:16 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:43:16 (lambda () (format t "~&Value to use: ") (list (eval (read)))) 22:43:40 yes ok 22:44:02 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 22:45:03 Guthur: So, it's been 30 minutes since you asked but I'll let you know that I, for one, used CLSQL quite a lot and I always hated its goddamned square-brackets syntax with a passion. Its indentation would break horribly and I couldn't navigate it like I do with s-expressions, it was a total nightmare. I'm not sure if these issues have been fixed but I decided to make my own DB interface library (work in progress...) 22:45:13 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 22:46:09 just a fast question: i've found that in CLISP i can use a variable without DEFVARing it first, is that ok? 22:46:17 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:33 *sykopomp* actually quite enjoyed S-SQL syntax quite a bit. 22:46:43 s/quite a bit// 22:47:08 new-lisper: no 22:47:25 new-lisper: many implementations will issue a warning for that 22:47:43 and I'm not sure about the specifics of whether such variable is special or not 22:47:46 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050073153.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:47:53 p_l|uni: it's undefined. 22:47:55 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu242.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:47:57 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-161-252.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:48:03 jso [~user@ip68-111-169-131.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:03 ah, my favourite word in specs 22:48:04 yes, i've asked because it doesn't work on SBCL 22:48:32 it should work, but not the way you might expect 22:48:40 p_l|uni: setq works on variables. If you haven't defined the symbol as a variable, you're making setq act on 'something'. 22:48:40 Hexstream, To be honest I only used CLSQL briefly, I didn't delve to deep either 22:48:52 Hexstream, Do you have a project repo? 22:49:00 actually, I believe CLISP creates -lexical- variables when you SETQ arbitrary variables. 22:49:11 not special ones. 22:49:13 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.113.109] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:50:13 in CLISP : (setf x 9) ; Evals to 9, ok 22:50:30 in SBCL : (setf x 9) ; Error, x undefined 22:50:35 correct. 22:50:51 because X is not already a variable. 22:50:59 incorrect 22:51:14 ? 22:51:27 oh, it warns. 22:51:35 There's probably a line of argument which puts CLISP in the wrong here, too. 22:51:54 clisp -ansi 22:51:56 i think 22:52:08 Hexstream, I think if it was me, I would use Stored Procs for the vast majority of the database querying 22:52:09 actually... 22:52:13 Guthur: Well, many. http://github.com/Hexstream But if you mean a repo that uses CLSQL, then I don't have one of these that are open-sourced. If you mean my work-in-progress CLSQL replacement, it's at http://github.com/Hexstream/hexql but it's thoroughly undocumented right now and the only thing it can do is connect to the backend... 22:52:16 new-lisper: your transcript of SBCL is incorrect 22:52:17 nyef: I can see a line of argument which puts CLISP very much in the right. 22:52:23 clhs 3.1.2.1.1 22:52:35 "If a form is a symbol, then it is either a symbol macro or a variable." 22:52:56 "Am I trying to assign to a symbol macro? No? Then it's a variable, and I can assign to it." 22:53:02 well, that's ok, but it doesn't say it has to define it special 22:53:09 ... Dammit, specbot! 22:53:11 stass 22:53:11 which is the case with defvar 22:53:16 oops 22:53:20 damned enter key 22:53:33 Guthur: I hate stored procs ;P I'm really not a databases guy. I use postgres but only for the crucially needed functionality and nothing else. 22:53:42 sykopomp: The argument actually is that if you have a symbol that isn't a symbol-macro or a variable, it's not a valid form. 22:53:51 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw226086.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:54:34 sykopomp: but it is undefined which kind of variable and in which scope it should be. 22:54:37 so you set your X with 9, and then you do (flet ((foo () x)) (let ((x 10)) (foo))) and ba=>m 9 22:54:56 Hexstream, Yeah I understand most database programming feels mighty archaic, but you would lose quite a bit of performance benefits from ignoring SPs on most DBs 22:55:07 nyef: the definition for form doesn't seem to indicate such. 22:55:55 so, there's a difference between using SETF and DEFVAR, but both cases work, just differently 22:55:55 sykopomp: Work it backwards. A FORM which is a SYMBOL is one of ..., you have a SYMBOL which is not one of ... by their own definitions. Therefore: The SYMBOL is not a FORM. 22:56:24 Guthur: My most "ambitious" project so far had to serve single-digit concurrent connections per second. 22:56:46 nyef: it bottoms out at 'object'. 22:56:53 Modus tollens. 22:57:02 The way thinks are looking, I won't actually have to worry about performance issues for a long time. I'll tackle them as they arise. 22:57:07 Anyway, I'm going out of scope now. Good night! 22:57:52 -!- serichsen [~user@f054169123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 22:58:05 nyef: "If a form is a symbol that is not a symbol macro, then it is the name of a variable, and the value of that variable is returned." 22:58:07 so yes? 22:58:10 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 22:58:16 Hexstream: heh, you could use a better website IMHO xD 22:58:17 Yes. 22:58:51 p_l|uni: Haha, haven't come around to that yet. 22:58:52 Also, the first sentence of 3.1.2.1.1: "If a form is a symbol, then it is either a symbol macro or a variable." 22:59:21 I mean, I did a real website "back then" but it's now offline. 22:59:29 But starting from your quote, it goes on to define an exhaustive partition of "variable"s. 23:00:19 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 23:01:04 nyef: It seems to me more like CLISP is being correct, as far as the spec goes, but the spec really doesn't give us much to work with in this case. 23:01:30 Then, 3.1.2.1.1.1 says that your free reference to X is not a lexical variable. And 3.1.2.1.1.2 says that it can only be a dynamic variable if it is "special", or there's an unshadowed dynamic binding in the lexical context. 23:01:42 aha 23:02:21 And then you have 3.1.2.1.1.3, defining constant variables. 23:02:59 Your previously-undefined symbol does not fall into /any/ of these three categories. Therefore, it is not a variable. 23:03:01 -!- vng [~user@LRouen-151-73-4-166.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:03:06 nyef: wait, where in 3.1.2.1.1.1 does it say that the free reference to X is not a lexical variable? 23:03:51 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:03:57 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:57 It's not a lexical variable because it's not within the lexical scope of a form establishing it as a lexical variable. Hence, a "free" reference. 23:04:27 *Xach* hugs linedit again 23:04:47 Ah. And SETQ is not establishing a new lexical scope. 23:05:07 Even if it /was/, you can't refer to the value again anyway. 23:05:30 The lexical scope for the SETQ ends when the SETQ ends. 23:05:40 right 23:05:48 Therefore, X is not a form. 23:06:01 you mean, not a variable? 23:06:08 Right, not a variable. 23:06:08 If you had to give a special name to "alists" that have the value in the second element instead of the CDR, what would you call it? 23:06:17 And since it's not a symbol-macro either, it's not a form. 23:06:22 Perhaps "palist", as in "pseudo-alist", or something... 23:06:33 Hexstream: what? 23:06:42 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:47 you mean '((a b) (c d))? 23:06:47 night all 23:06:53 sykopomp: Yes. 23:06:54 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:02 *sykopomp* calls those alists, too. 23:07:06 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:07:13 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:07:14 Yes, that's what I do too, usually. 23:07:31 But if you had to give it a different name, what would it be? 23:07:44 nested list? 23:08:01 ......... nevermind, palist will do. 23:08:06 "poor man's associative data structure" 23:08:09 what's the problem with the correct term? 23:08:28 it is an alist after all. the value just happens to be a list, itself 23:08:28 "You should be using vectors"? 23:09:11 antifuchs: You'll see later when I release this LOOPless library of mine ;P 23:09:14 antifuchs: well, the differente is that the value is intended to be the contents of that list, not the list itself. 23:09:26 Hexstream: "Forgot-the-dots-list" 23:09:36 sykopomp: why? 23:09:40 sykopomp: then you have another data structure nested in the value portions of your alist 23:09:45 that doesn't make the alist less alisty 23:10:09 i mean, if you have a single value, why stuff it into a list? 23:11:07 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-067.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:11:08 Oh yes, and arguments that point to sense 2 of the glossary entry for form are flawed by the conflicting-language priority-resolution rule and by sense 1 of the glossary entry. 23:11:11 stassats: Yes, indeed, why doesn't let use (key . value) for each binding?! 23:11:29 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-067.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 23:11:33 (Clearly, sense 2 is for those macros that take "a form, not evaluated".) 23:11:48 nyef: that is wonderfully language-lawyer-y. 23:12:35 Hexstream: it does, when value is nil (-: 23:13:01 nil-as-empty-list insanity strikes again (: 23:13:45 Besides, I've had this discussion before. 23:13:50 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:16:26 antifuchs: good thing assoc returns the whole thing 23:18:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:19:04 stassats: However, rassoc then doesn't work. With (key value), I mean. 23:19:20 Unless you use #'equal as comparison or something... 23:20:08 ASSOC takes a KEY argument. Use :KEY #'CADR. 23:20:45 Oh. 23:22:04 nyef: Uh... not sure I understand. That would test the second element of the CAR of the alist entry, no?.. 23:22:18 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:22:49 You'd have to go with FIND, perhaps... 23:23:42 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:35 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:26:49 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:32:55 i have a weird question: i understand why you need to prepend funcnames with #' since the namespace for variables and functions is different, but why do i need to add them to #'(lambda...) forms when passing them around? or do i even need to? 23:33:28 (under common lisp [sbcl]) 23:35:07 Oh, right. Oops. 23:35:27 <_3b> you don't, LAMBDA is a macro that expands to the same thing #' reads as 23:36:10 You needed it briefly during the standardization process, as they took the macro out at one point, then put it back in... 23:36:37 But that was over something like sixteen years ago. 23:36:41 _3b: thanks.. i'm following siebel's book and that tripped me up.. 23:37:12 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.217.177.174] has joined #lisp 23:37:27 -!- new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: "Bye everyone"] 23:38:04 _3b: ah just noticed footnote 13 on chap 5 that explains it 23:38:25 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:39:38 Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-29-123.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:40:00 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 23:40:28 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:41:00 -!- franki^_ is now known as franki^ 23:41:19 -!- franki^ [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:41:19 franki^ [~frankie@unaffiliated/franki] has joined #lisp 23:42:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:44:14 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:14 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-067.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:46:04 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-067.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 23:46:08 -!- Lizard46 [~Lizard46@173-166-26-206-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: http://irc2go.com/] 23:46:11 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 23:51:35 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:51:48 Ah, so I found the easy and convenient solution for my alist conundrum (however you spell that) earlier. I'll just append a * for functions which deal with "pseudo-alists". There will sure be a lot of starred names in that library. You could call it an ALL-STAR library!... Did I mention I'm thinking of ditching programming and becoming a professionnal stand-up comic? 23:52:08 kingless [~kingless@adsl-242-215-95.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:29 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]