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If I still don't feel comfortable in 10 years, there'll be hell to pay! <-- sometimes when I forget to export VISUAL to emacs in my profile, git commit and other assorted tools use vim if it's installed 01:16:28 I then proceed to gleefully write text while forgetting to press the initial 'i' =p 01:16:53 when I notice and do enter insert mode, I finish it with C-x C-s C-x C-c and that causes vim to break REALLY nicely lol 01:17:23 alternatively, once in a blue moon when I enter emacs I press 'i' but that isn't happening anymore thankfully =p 01:21:37 I... usually remember what I'm doing when I use vi. Primarily because I know that I'm far out of my usual element, and thus slow the heck down. 01:22:18 heh 01:22:29 one thing that I like about vim though is its syntax hilighting 01:22:57 I still didn't come up with sth I like as much as it in emacs, but I prefer emacs' everything else to vim's 01:23:29 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:25:19 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:29:38 -!- troussan [~user@mobile-166-137-142-145.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:53 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:15 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-84-44-251-151.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:34:20 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-84-44-251-151.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:36:21 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-251-151.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:37:27 rpg 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has joined #lisp 03:47:17 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:48:46 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:49:55 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:50:08 -!- rainbowhouse [~chatzilla@216-80-92-50.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: I'm not here right now.] 03:58:21 good morning 03:58:23 -!- ost`` is now known as ost 04:00:07 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:40 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 04:00:50 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 04:03:28 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:03:59 tama [~tama@cpe-76-184-207-33.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:04:18 -!- tama is now known as coyo 04:04:29 -!- coyo [~tama@cpe-76-184-207-33.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:04:29 coyo [~tama@unaffiliated/bandu] 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joined #lisp 04:53:33 Good morning everyone! 04:54:10 morning beach 04:54:17 did you see my updated insert-vector*? 04:54:40 beach, good morning 04:54:52 I did yes. Didn't put it in yet, because I wasn't sure whether you were convinced that it's working or not. 04:55:42 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:55:57 If you are, I will. 04:56:00 it's working as far as I can tell. I guess adding some tests to the test suite would be nice though :) 04:56:11 Definitely. 04:57:19 slyrus_: Can you give me that URL again, please? 04:57:20 what is the skiplist file referenced from flexichain-test.asd for? 04:57:42 slyrus_: There used to be a reson, but there no longer is one. 04:58:23 http://gist.github.com/609277 04:58:37 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:01:19 mrh0057 [~mrh0057@99-52-161-60.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:35 -!- mrh0057 [~mrh0057@99-52-161-60.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 05:05:20 slyrus_: Done! Thanks! 05:05:25 beach: a couple more things... 05:06:20 1. if :initial-nb-elements is 0, one shouldn't need an :initial-element arg 05:06:42 (defaults to nil. if type is, say, character, it punts saying that NIL is not a character (which it isn't, of course). 05:06:43 ) 05:07:04 2. it's trivial enough to write, but how about a function like: (defun elements (chain) (loop for k below (flexichain:nb-elements chain) collect (flexichain:element* chain k))) 05:07:30 perhaps that's really only useful for testing, but getting a vector that corresponds to the contents of the chain seems useful 05:07:40 (without a real-world motivating case, of course) 05:07:58 Demosthenes [~demo@65.242.219.13] has joined #lisp 05:09:40 slyrus_: OK, I'll look into it later. Right now, I need to work on my accumulated email. Thanks! 05:12:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.231.174] has joined #lisp 05:14:02 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:16:38 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:17:08 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 05:19:06 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:20:48 -!- coyo [~tama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:21:23 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 05:23:59 beach: here are some simple tests that exercise that code path: http://gist.github.com/611042 05:32:46 slyrus_: Thanks! 05:36:08 oh, I see. no one has ported mcclim to abcl :( 05:41:16 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-251-151.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:41:24 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-251-151.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:41:25 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-147-91.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:34 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-209-224.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:44:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@p4081-ipad305osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:46:40 cliftonk [~cliftonk@S010600123ff34d7d.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:17 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:57:55 tama [~tama@cpe-76-184-207-33.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:58:48 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59:31 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:00:06 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:01:52 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 06:03:42 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 06:03:59 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 06:06:46 -!- cliftonk [~cliftonk@S010600123ff34d7d.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 06:12:15 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 06:13:32 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 06:13:36 -!- guther is now known as guther_gott 06:13:51 -!- guther_gott is now known as guther 06:15:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:17:01 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:17:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:17:01 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:24:06 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:24:44 -!- wareya_ is now known as wareya 06:29:07 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:12 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 06:29:16 greetings 06:31:07 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 06:31:07 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:08 Franz is completely dominating the semantic web scene. Someone who is as computer illiterate as a cabbage patch sent me a link to Gruff :-) 06:31:58 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:33:02 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:35:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.231.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:37:13 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:39:41 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:39:50 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:40:29 good morning 06:42:38 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:42:41 sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-79-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:43:03 hey nikodemus 06:44:05 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:46:32 sharps`` [~user@ip-118-90-79-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:46:41 I'm trying to get my head around conditions/handlers/restarts... so suppose I am parsing a file and I want to push all malformed entries to a new file. Where is the most approperiate place to handle this? 06:46:48 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-79-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:49:41 -!- Pepe__ is now known as Pepe_ 06:50:17 I think that it's useful to start from the idea of signals. 06:50:33 -!- sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-79-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:51:14 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:51:28 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 06:51:45 You signal a condition (in some way), the signal handler gets called, it might look in the dynamic environment for somewhere to do a non-local transfer to restart from, or it might return to where it was signaled from with a suitable value. 06:52:16 vs: the pcl-book uses almost that exact scenario as an example 06:52:22 have you read it? 06:52:28 does anyone know if Dylan ever had a MOP? 06:52:44 nikodemus: I own it... but it's fairly unclear actually 06:52:50 The other question is -- should that situation warrant signalling a condition in the first place? 06:52:54 sharps``` [~user@ip-118-90-79-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:53:07 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/hyperspec/HyperSpec/Body/sec_9-1-4.html 06:53:25 Zhivago: so signal with error? 06:53:29 vs: I have a snippet "pattern" that I use for this frequently. hold on. 06:53:47 Well, some conditions are errors. 06:54:22 But depending on how you think, handling malformed entries in a parser might be considered a normal operation. 06:54:41 The question is really "how do you want 3rd party software to interact with this?" 06:54:41 can handlers be define outside of all functions? like anytime error of type x is called, the handler is invoked? 06:54:58 Yes. You can think of them as being like signal handlers in C 06:55:01 PCL seems to have handlers/behave like try/except blocks in python or java 06:55:04 which seems... strange 06:55:20 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:55:23 er *handlers/restarts behave 06:56:04 I think fusss's pattern will help.. I just need to read some code with this pattern 06:56:10 vs: handlers can be anywhere. they don't need to be inside functions 06:57:02 -!- sharps`` [~user@ip-118-90-79-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:57:07 however, they only handle stuff from their dynamic contour, not anywhere 06:57:10 Maybe I misunderstood him -- do you mean "can you define handlers so that they're present for subsequent top-level forms?" 06:57:53 (handler-case (stuff) (error (e) (handle-stuff e))) (more-stuff) ; the handler only handles errors from STUFF, not MORE-STUFF 06:57:59 I need a handler to push me into the debugger 06:58:04 when there is a malformed line 06:58:30 Well, you could just use CERROR there. 06:58:36 you land in the debugger always on error, unless you've disabled it 06:59:12 ...for example by writing a handler. if you want you handlers to be able to _decline_ stuff, you need to use handler-bind, not handler-case 06:59:13 right, or unless I write a handler that pushes the malformed line to a file and continues on its merry way? 06:59:40 I wish PCL was about 10 pages longer on this topic... 06:59:46 vs: here http://paste.lisp.org/display/115215 07:00:35 in this case you may find with-simple-restart useful 07:00:53 adeht: indeed 07:01:38 I have various patterns like those that I had to collect when orchestrating 5 different web services in an app and had to some major league error handling and reporting 07:01:42 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Quit: Kerrick] 07:02:25 (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (when (zerop (random 2)) (continue c))))) 07:02:25 (with-simple-restart (continue "go on") 07:02:26 (error "oops")) 07:02:26 'continued) 07:02:29 thanks fusss... still digesting 07:02:35 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:02:47 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:03:06 splittist [~John@195-130.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:03:08 morning 07:03:34 vs: what that does is implement a "skip bad record" mechanism. in the RESTART-CASE form you can implement simple logging, by gathering record location, file name, etc. and printing out at the end of the computation. 07:04:10 fusss: your post? or nikodemus's above? 07:04:22 his 07:04:41 vs: oh, mine. i just fired up slime to test nikodemus' 07:04:51 mine is an example of declining to handle stuff, so another handler -- and ultimately the debugger -- gets to run 07:04:55 *fusss* could always use more condition system tricks 07:05:16 this is the only part of lisp that seems strange so far... 07:05:17 50% of the time the handler continues, 50% of the time you end up in the debugger with option to continue 07:05:34 vs: handler-case is pretty much like try/except. unwind-protect is like try/finally. handler-bind and restarts are unique to common lisp 07:06:38 -!- sharps``` [~user@ip-118-90-79-5.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:07:08 that helps nikodemus! 07:07:19 I think I will try to hack together something with that and fusss's code 07:07:35 vs: if you want to understand conditions, I suggest you read up Kent Pitman's papers 07:08:22 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:08:49 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-66.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 07:09:16 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:09:16 adeht: like this one? http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html 07:09:22 vs: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/index.html .. 07:09:42 vs: yes, and there's also Exceptional Situations in Lisp 07:10:22 *fusss* goes back to jvm spec 07:11:18 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:12:25 fwiw, either Sun or MIT decided it would be fun to remove the original JVM mailinglist. Every major language has its history preserved, but some moron decided it was fair to rm -rf wilson.ai.mit.edu :-/ 07:13:01 I would have loved to read Scott Fahlman's critique of the JVM, referenced by Shivers in his "Suggestions for the JVM" paper from '97. 07:13:03 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:08 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:15:41 xan_ [~xan@i60-42-251-175.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:17:35 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:12 fusss! 07:18:13 hi. 07:18:24 working late again? 07:19:21 fusss: I'll work out the suggestion I mailed yesterday for that ticket. 07:19:40 Can't be more than 20minutes work on a clear Tuesday morning. 07:21:22 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:21:51 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 07:22:14 ehu: see you in #abcl :-) 07:22:28 wvdschel [~wim@vpnq014.ugent.be] has joined #lisp 07:23:11 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:24:48 -!- wvdschel [~wim@vpnq014.ugent.be] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:59 what is the function in handler-bind? (handler-bind ((my-error #'this-func)) ...) 07:25:14 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 07:25:56 I wonder if Jans Aasman's AllegroGraph presentation at ILC will be different from all his other ones? The abstracts are different, but they all blended into one, for me anyway. 07:26:29 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 07:27:31 wareya_ [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:38 -!- wareya [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:32:43 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:33:32 -!- splittist [~John@195-130.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33:55 vs: it's a handler function. a function of one argument that takes the condition that was thrown, and allows you to act upon it. 07:34:50 vs: better use 'this-function instead of #'this-function. that way you can modify the function at run time without having to reevaluate the handler-bind form. same with GUI callbacks, you don't wanna pass function objects, but function names. 07:35:31 -!- tama [~tama@cpe-76-184-207-33.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:35:32 ah, thanks fusss 07:36:39 I still don't see why handlers *and* restarts are necessary 07:36:40 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.74.58.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:36:57 xan__ [~xan@i60-42-245-71.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:38:14 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:38:40 good morning 07:39:15 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:59 wvdschel: did you still have a PW question? You were already logged out when I finally checked the channel last night. 07:40:04 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 07:40:11 -!- xan_ [~xan@i60-42-251-175.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:40:35 aerique, nah it's ok, I wasn't getting the output on compile error 07:41:00 vs: learn the bits you need now, you will need the rest when you know better :-) 07:41:12 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:41:30 wvdschel: okey :) they were busy with the tournament code yesterday, i had some problems as well 07:41:31 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 07:41:31 apparently, their version of SBCL doesn't compile my code when I add (proclaim '(optimize (speed 3) (space 0) (debug 0))) 07:41:43 while it works on my machine 07:41:52 but without it, it just errors on a warning 07:41:55 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:42:04 wvdschel: they're using an ancient version: 1.0.11, better test with that at home as well before submitting 07:42:12 Hi everyone! 07:42:17 which is silly, but at least I know now 07:42:29 splittist [~John@195-130.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:43:14 How can I pull a file into memory and then process it one line at a time. 07:43:19 i intend to get a rudimentary version of my strategy working by tonight 07:43:36 wvdschel: also, your submission is treated as errenous when there's output on stderr (even when it is just warnings). i redirect *error-output* to *standard-output* to get it to compile on their server 07:44:04 aerique, aha 07:44:17 erroneous that is 07:44:20 well, I'll get the warnings out 07:44:22 vs: this stuff is not deep magic. you could reimplement whole of cl conditions on top of special variables, tagbody/go, funcall & closures, and invoke-debugger. maybe a couple of other bits and pieces too, but the way eg. sbcl implements condition handling is pretty much all "user-level" constructs 07:44:45 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.74.58.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 07:44:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-64-102.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:02 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:52:24 beach: did you remove element-type? 07:54:02 -!- mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:58:24 cmpitg [~cmpitg@123.16.50.194] has joined #lisp 07:58:46 did anybody here ever try cl4java? 08:02:48 ehu: no, but I've been trying out ABCL lately :) 08:03:11 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:41 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:06:02 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:07:24 Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-197-125.uio.no] has joined #lisp 08:07:52 slyrus_: hah! ok. well, any experiences, good or bad: put them in a mail. We like to hear about them. 08:08:34 ok, I'll try to do that later this week. I've mostly been getting cl-bio and flexichain to play nice with each other/abcl. 08:08:46 also, I noticed that there doesn't seem to be a mcclim port for abcl :( 08:09:17 slyrus_: to my understanding that's a multi-year undertaking? 08:09:41 slyrus_: I'm not against starting it, but would actually prefer others to help out if and when we do. 08:09:59 hmm... ok. well, time for bed. more tomorrow. 08:10:05 night 08:23:02 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:10 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 08:25:54 hello lispers 08:26:12 Hi 08:27:42 hi 08:27:50 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.74.58.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:28:29 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:47 is there an easy fix available for slime to indent code within a , or ,@ section of a backquote properly? 08:31:00 no 08:31:11 a trick is to use a space between ,/,@ and the ( 08:31:27 yes, I'd like to avoid the space 08:32:06 (this code base was written using ELI and doesn't have spaces in these cases...) 08:32:34 Where would I have to look? Is this SLIME-related code or Emacs-related? Any pointers? 08:34:01 in the C source of Emacs I'm guess 08:34:15 I'd 08:34:53 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:34:57 the entry point is M-x find-library cl-indent 08:36:02 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-21-82-64-88-223.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:36:11 Thanks. (That's a suspiciously small file!) 08:36:27 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:38:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:39:57 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 08:41:47 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@123.16.50.194] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:43:17 billitch [~billitch@host.154.243.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has joined #lisp 08:44:09 karim [~karim@neyret.fr] has joined #lisp 08:44:13 hi 08:44:31 lichtblau: if you fix it, do blog! 08:44:37 is there a function to do a cartesian product between two lists ? 08:45:07 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-66.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:45:41 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:45:54 not builtin 08:46:51 ok, thank you nikodemus 08:48:55 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-54-82-251-121-68.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:48 (deftype dword '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) 4)) <-- this look right? 08:50:32 H4ns [~Hans@p579F8DE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:53 dword is a 32-bit value consisting of 4 consecutive octets 08:53:34 yes, but you're wasting space by representing it as an array :) 08:54:16 yeah, probably it's just (unsigned-byte 32) 08:54:34 1 word for widetag, 1 word for length, 1 word for content, 1 word to padd it to multiple of 2 08:54:44 oh, yeah 08:55:07 it's also missing parentheses 08:55:11 I got that 08:56:13 nice. i didn't know how subtypep compared unsigned-byte chunks til now 08:56:31 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:57:18 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 08:58:40 *lichtblau* "fixes" the problem by loading ELI's indentation code into SLIME 08:59:39 seems to work so far. Don't know if it's useful to anyone else, but at least &key indentation works again, and ,@ doesn't need a space either anymore: http://gitorious.org/fi-indent-for-slime/fi-indent-for-slime 09:00:07 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:00:35 tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:53 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-138-192-80.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:04:50 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:06:10 -!- kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6] 09:10:29 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:10:52 mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:11:29 (the lack of interaction with user-defined macros is... positively old-fashioned) 09:12:29 ah, a Lisper finally broke into the top 100: http://ai-contest.com/language_profile.php?lang=Lisp 09:16:26 -!- Guest83602 [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:17:33 -!- mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:19:48 -!- H4ns [~Hans@p579F8DE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:20:10 mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:20:17 -!- karim [~karim@neyret.fr] has left #lisp 09:20:40 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-66.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 09:21:21 Is there a package for downloading files from the interwebs 09:21:55 Guthur: Drakma? 09:22:13 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:22:14 Might be a little fat 09:22:24 I only want to download a csv fiel 09:22:27 file* 09:22:56 Guthur: what do you mean by "might be a little fat"? 09:23:12 well its a full on web client 09:23:36 Guthur: so? 09:23:46 Guthur: #'run-program and wget or curl? :) 09:24:01 Guthur: wget and curl are also full-on web clients... 09:24:47 doing cookies and all? 09:26:03 Blkt [~user@93-33-134-89.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:26:09 yes 09:26:17 H4ns [~user@pD4B9ECC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:19 and get and post requests 09:26:26 and doing html rewrites 09:26:37 drakma is really barebones compared to those 09:26:47 what adeht said 09:27:13 hehe, well ok I'll check it out 09:28:26 I even had to patch it to get some SSL working with a key/cert, or allow UTF-8 for URI strings 09:29:20 adeht: send patches 09:30:27 H4ns: the SSL thingy is a crude hack, but I saw someone on the mailing list already sent a patch 09:31:16 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36:02 -!- Pavitra [~pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:38:34 shame on me for fearing the dependency, drakma is what I want, cheers guys 09:39:00 i'm no longer afraid of pulling in dependencies 09:39:12 what happens here? 09:39:12 if a library solves a problem, just use it! 09:39:29 sounds like mass enlightenment 09:39:33 Blkt: see topic 09:40:05 Bordeaux-threads? 09:40:35 You skipped a lot to get to Bordeaux-threads 09:40:40 Blkt: what about them? 09:40:44 do you usually start in the middle 09:40:48 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:40:48 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 09:40:48 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 09:41:17 Actually it's more like the end 09:41:48 New: ABCL on Maxima, SBCL 09:41:48 1.0.43, Bordeaux-Threads 0.8.0, CMUCL 20b 09:41:54 that's everything I read 09:42:32 oh ok, then yes you did start in the middle, hehe 09:42:42 :D 09:43:01 "skip the gibberish until there is something that looks like i can read it" 09:43:19 greedy parse, I'm sorry, I just woke up 09:44:49 And thats exactly what drakma is doing for me when downloading the file, hehe 09:44:55 life is good 09:47:24 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:47:45 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-197-125.uio.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 09:48:50 Krystof [~csr21@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:50:40 -!- billitch [~billitch@host.154.243.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:51:02 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:55:57 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:58:21 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 09:58:44 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C3BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:28 pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:02 -!- pjb` is now known as ogamita 10:03:47 -!- xan__ [~xan@i60-42-245-71.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:04:49 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:05:21 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:05:26 xan_ [~xan@i60-42-245-71.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:11:07 Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-197-125.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:14:39 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-138-192-80.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:16:20 Joreji [~thomas@64-035.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:19:00 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 10:19:10 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 10:19:10 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:22:55 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.172.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:24:52 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.199.84] has joined #lisp 10:27:38 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:56 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:30:41 -!- ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:15 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:38:42 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:41:04 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:43:13 in the SBCl debugger how to see which line/expression is causing the error ? 10:44:42 in Slime, press v on the frame 10:49:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:49:12 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:50:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:51:05 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:51:36 pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:59 -!- pjb` is now known as ogamita 10:56:14 freik [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-66.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 10:57:14 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-66.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:57:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:57:24 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:00:57 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:57 -!- pdo_ is now known as pdo 11:01:48 -!- attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:02:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:02:29 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:03:59 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 11:04:10 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:29 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 11:06:52 tfb [~tfb@92.41.98.201.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:10:50 -!- freik [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-66.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:11:18 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-64-102.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:15:38 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:16:00 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 11:16:50 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-197-125.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:17:56 is there the adjoin verb for the loop macro? 11:18:09 I need collect in a set 11:20:38 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Client Quit] 11:20:57 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 11:21:21 Blkt: you can use delete-duplicates afterwards 11:21:41 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Client Quit] 11:22:02 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 11:22:14 or (loop with result = '() .... do (pushnew elt result) finally (return result)) 11:22:26 I found the pushnew solution right now 11:22:37 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Client Quit] 11:22:39 wannabe master of lexical scope 11:22:45 mal__: this would be O(n^2). collect + delete-duplicates could be O(n*log(n)). 11:22:58 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 11:23:03 actually I never being able to use slime 11:23:04 or even better. 11:23:11 pdo` [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 11:24:38 freik [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-78.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 11:25:42 -!- Krystof [~csr21@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:28:25 kushal: why not? 11:28:40 tcr, need a simple tutorial 11:28:48 to understand 11:29:16 There's an old but mostly-still-valid video which demonstrates the basic work flow 11:29:39 If you are not yet an Emacs user, try the emacs tutorial first (C-h t) 11:31:20 tcr, learned very basics of emacs to use it 11:31:26 tcr, will check the video 11:32:04 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-72-142.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:34:42 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:37:23 -!- ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:37:55 I am getting illegal function call http://paste.lisp.org/display/115219 11:38:17 oh course you do 11:38:18 kushal: paste the source, too 11:38:22 of course 11:38:24 oops. 11:38:31 ((dolist )) 11:38:39 Hi H4ns! 11:38:46 tcr: *verbeug* 11:39:12 I shall come and give Berlin a visit 11:39:24 tcr: very nice, when will that be? 11:39:52 tcr: today would be particularily suitable, as we got our monthly lisp meeting this night :) 11:40:13 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:08 When will be the next? 11:41:27 1st week of a month usually? 11:41:35 tcr: every first tuesday of the month, so second november 11:42:43 that sounds manageable 11:44:24 tcr: what will your presentation be about? :D 11:46:26 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:47:37 kushal: Get yourself viper-mode and vimpulse. ;) 11:50:41 H4ns, http://paste.lisp.org/display/115220 is the source 11:51:01 kushal: tcr was right 11:51:20 H4ns, tcr , never understood the issue 11:51:50 kushal: not much to understand about what he wrote. just remove the extra parentheses. 11:51:51 (dolist (y test) 11:51:51 (format t "~A%" y)) 11:52:09 H4ns, ok 11:52:43 kushal: you seem to think that parenthese are as insignificant in lisp as in other languages, which is not the case. if they are there, they mean something. 11:53:02 kushal: so (tmp_var) is something completely different from tmp_var, and the former will probably not work. 11:53:12 H4ns, yes, I think they are trying to use the expression as a function and call it 11:53:19 H4ns, yes 11:53:27 H4ns: Something about using Lisp for TCP/IP stacks 11:53:59 tcr: cool! 11:54:28 still not being able all syntax related issues :( 11:54:33 tcr, H4ns thanks 11:56:27 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:03:06 kushal: have you read Practical Common Lisp? 12:03:50 nikodemus, not all chapters yet , and yes I am forgetting many things 12:05:13 if you're having trouble understanding why ((dolist (x list) ...)) doesn't work, read again from the beginning 12:05:28 nikodemus, ok 12:06:37 kushal: if you find it hard to follow, you trouretzky's book may be another alternative. i haven't read it myself, but some people say it does the job too 12:06:46 minion: gentle introduction 12:07:02 minion: where are you? 12:08:04 this is the touretzky book: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ -- but i would stay with pcl unless you find it hard to follow 12:09:53 nikodemus, PCL is not hard 12:11:47 ok :) 12:14:02 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 12:14:05 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.199.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:15:49 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:17:18 ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:55 brickhazel [~brickhaze@63-144-132-78.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:51 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cfcuzpyvalszfpyi] has left #lisp 12:21:03 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.54.114] has joined #lisp 12:24:39 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:26:39 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:15 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-25-3.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:30:19 Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-200-169.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:31:48 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:31:58 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-87-127.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:04 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:54 LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:33:57 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:36:09 ah, with the same election aide that doesn't know how to operate the machine 12:36:12 soory 12:36:32 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:36:44 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.98.201.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:15 -!- freik is now known as freiksenet 12:39:04 Krystof [~csr21@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:39:23 hi Krystof! 12:39:39 hello! 12:40:28 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:40:31 LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:41:48 hmm, which section of CLHS i should have read to not expect a proclamation that is in a file which is loaded from my init file to work? 12:42:04 e.g., i have .sbclrc, which loads .common.lisp, and the proclamation is in .common.lisp 12:42:24 if i have the proclamation in .sbclrc, it works, if in .common.lisp, then it does not 12:43:04 -!- LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 12:43:35 Krystof: greetings. You didn't tell me 'What the Ladybird Heard' was a book about programming (and reverse engineering)! 12:43:43 jdz: presumably it is works when EXECUTE'd but doesn't when merely LOAD'ed. or something. 12:43:53 none. sbcl and cmucl file-scope declamations, and by extension also proclamations. there's nothing in the spec suggesting that this is valid 12:44:33 i have (proclaim '(optimize (safety 3) (debug 3))) as the proclamation 12:44:34 but having declamations have global effect after a file compilation finishes is just totally insane 12:44:55 splittist: heh. Nice way of thinking about it :-) 12:44:56 i'm intentionally using proclaim instead of declaim 12:45:50 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.248] has joined #lisp 12:45:55 IIRC the spec is fairly silent about how much leakage of compilation environment is allowed/required 12:46:00 jsnell: and after SBCL starts, the proclamation from .sbclrc still has the effect (as confirmed by sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy), but if it is in the other file loaded from initfile, then it does not 12:46:16 cmucl used to be fairly leaky, lispworks is among the less leaky I've used 12:46:28 jdz: i would encourage you to file a bug about this on launchpad 12:46:39 jdz: yes, IIRC .sbclrc is not loaded but read and evaled, exactly for this reason 12:47:10 serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06a2b2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:15 jsnell: and wrapping the proclamation in EVAL-WHEN with all times does not change the effect 12:47:33 ok, i'll try to submit a bug report; i'm just not sure it's a bug 12:47:37 yes, I know that. I explained it above 12:47:42 so was asking about a reference to CLHS 12:47:54 i think i at some point came to the conclusion that it is valid for a toplevel DECLAIM to be file-local, but that load-time PROCLAIM should persist after the file has been loaded 12:47:59 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:48:29 nikodemus: well, that's my intiuition about proclaim as weell 12:48:51 except that declaim is exactly the same as proclaim + compile-time effect 12:49:08 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@65.242.219.13] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:49:16 so if you put (declaim ...) somewhere in your project, then load the fasls, you've just (by the spec) changed the global compiler policy. (Which is insane) 12:49:17 Krystof: i don't see language requiring load-time effects for declaim 12:49:26 methinks there should be another special form or two, something like SB-EXT:{DECLAIM,PROCLAIM}-GLOBALLY 12:49:32 that'd be nice and explicit 12:49:48 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914123505]] 12:50:02 nikodemus: it's execution behavior is "Establishes the declarations specified by the declaration-specifiers." 12:50:05 then again, perhaps it can already be done be playing with the optimization policy settings somehow 12:50:13 hm. "also made at compile-time" 12:50:43 "Benefits: Users will know what to expect when they use PROCLAIM." 12:50:45 haha 12:50:48 (from the issue) 12:51:18 I think that where people nowadays say (declaim ...) they really mean (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (proclaim '(...))) 12:51:51 well, PROCLAIM is broken now. i think unbreaking it and making DECLAIM somewhat differently broken might be a win here :) 12:52:25 I think I'd be happy with that 12:53:06 you mean declaim having no :load-toplevel or :execute? that does not sound good 12:53:06 (declaim ...) => (progn (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :execute) (something)) (eval-when (:load-toplevel) (something-else))) maybe 12:53:23 I think I mean declaim optimize having no load-toplevel 12:53:24 Krystof: for what it's worth, i've used DECLAIM for file-local declarations (e.g., relying on the compiler to do some magic with the file "compilation unit") 12:53:39 jdz: well, that's fine, but that's also completely against the spec 12:53:51 your declaim will also be evaluated, in the global environment, at load-time 12:53:51 Krystof: against? 12:54:05 when you load the code containing a declaim, it will be evaluated 12:54:16 Krystof: well yes, and it's unspecified if the effects stay after file compilation 12:54:28 it is not unspecified if the effects stay after file _loading_ 12:54:29 "persist" 12:54:39 cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has joined #lisp 12:54:54 Krystof: yes, that's a more interesting issue 12:54:55 we can do more-or-less what we want at compile-time, yes, including approximate file-scoping 12:55:09 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@169.156.190.90.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:58:05 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:16 Krystof: you're completely right about what i meant with the declaim :) 13:00:08 anyway, learn something new every day 13:04:35 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:11 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:19 -!- ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:30 ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:30 sellout [~greg@64.134.67.12] has joined #lisp 13:09:00 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:09:08 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-142-56.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:04 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:40 plage [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:10:46 Good afternoon everyone! 13:10:54 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 13:11:04 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:06 afternoon plage 13:24:24 hello plage 13:24:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:25:20 claint [~user@85.102.155.24] has joined #lisp 13:28:04 mvilleneuve: You are lucky that this is a "Conseil Restreint", so you don't have to be here. 13:28:45 could anyone explain me what's wrong with this function? http://paste.lisp.org/+2GWR 13:28:51 mvilleneuve: We have spent 1.5 hours of 17 people's time to discuss a document of three pages. 13:30:12 blkt It probably doesn't do what you want it to do. 13:30:25 Blkt: I don't know what the fundamental problem might be, but using getf instead of accessors makes it a little hard for me to read. 13:30:52 Blkt: Do you get some kind of error message? 13:32:29 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 13:32:52 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@227-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:34:02 brb, problems at hpome 13:34:41 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-200-169.uio.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 13:36:10 plage: yuck... :( 13:36:44 Good news: salza2-ified lichtblau-zip seems to basically work. Bad news: it's not working for my particular purpose. 13:37:02 boo 13:37:12 what is your purpose? 13:38:21 making .docx files. 13:39:28 what's special about how .docx files use ZIP? 13:40:27 it WFM with .odt files and OpenOffice! 13:40:40 lichtblau: I don't know yet (: 13:41:56 if you take "ordinary" zip software and unzip-rezip the file written from Lisp, does the rezipped file work? 13:42:56 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-56-192.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:55 lichtblau: I now realise I have screwed up the test. 13:44:14 Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-200-169.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:44:25 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:04 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:53 -!- ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:46:55 -!- claint [~user@85.102.155.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:46 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:47:53 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-77-93.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:49:18 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-25-239.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:51:48 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-78.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:55:41 Does anyone actually manage to use emacs+slime with 5+ windows? Is there a way to have the repl, stack trace, compile errors, and inspector always be in their own specific windows? have you tried it, does it work well? 13:56:19 *nyef* points out that this is the -normal- case under the emacs interpretation of the term "window". 13:57:08 what I mean is I want their windows to always be visible and locked in a specific place 13:57:25 Ah, fixed-position windows? Never tried it. 13:58:06 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 13:59:02 I can deal with things opening in different windows all the time with 3 windows, but when I get above that I find it confusing 13:59:21 scottj: By "window" do you mean what Emacs calls "frame"? 13:59:27 Are you mixing up emacs windows and emacs frames, or something else? 13:59:33 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-220-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:59:53 nope, I'm aware of the difference 14:00:09 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-220-2.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:00:41 emacs window management basically sucks 14:01:34 you can either try various non-really-working hacks in order to adapt emacs to the way you expect things to work, or you can adapt to emacs 14:03:21 -!- plage [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has left #lisp 14:03:32 I just normally keep one window visible and expect other windows to pop up when anything interesting appears in them (and when I'm done with them, I hide them back) 14:04:12 so I have 'C-x 1' wired into my fingers :) 14:04:21 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:21 I've found that having a monitor wide enough to do a vertical split and still see my files full-width in a maximized emacs frame is -wonderful-. 14:04:35 The problem then is that C-x 1 kills the split. Haven't figured that one out yet. 14:04:46 I've got my emacs full-screened 14:04:48 or high enough, for that matter 14:05:07 nyef: I've thought about using multiple frames and a tiling wm 14:05:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-035.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:05:41 Mmm. The machine that I'd consider a tiling wm (or a full-screen-only wm) for doesn't have a large enough display for this, unfortunately. 14:06:46 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:08:52 ideally I'd love to try a setup where the screen is managed by a traditional wm, but I can designate some areas to be tiling-only (and to behave like windows as far as moving/minimizing is concerned) 14:09:28 cmm: I like awesome because it does the reverse. 14:09:52 pkhuong: why is the reverse a good idea? 14:09:59 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu350.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:10:56 I have the DWIMish efficiency of tiling most of the time, but applications/windows that should float around are detected semi automatically, and I can move tiles around with my mouse. 14:11:18 moving tiles with a mouse seems like a winning solution 14:11:55 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@169.156.190.90.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:38 hrm. have to try this 14:13:08 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:13:24 and it's scripted in Lua, not crazy lisp or haskell ;) 14:13:32 does awesome accomodate the Gnome panel and stuff (please don't laugh) 14:13:34 ? 14:14:03 yes, it does 14:14:07 I just started it up 14:14:27 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:14:39 irc is amazingly useful today :) 14:15:18 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:41 correction: sort of 14:16:26 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:57 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:47 milanj [~milanj_@93-86-186-230.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:19:35 does it have virtual desktops in the traditional X sense (not the weird paging stuff modern desktop environments use)? 14:19:37 oh, and it's one huge himym reference to boot 14:19:57 there's probably a better place to find out about wms :) 14:20:34 dlowe: not about wms that are good as emacs crutches :) 14:21:07 mouse is the best emacs crutch 14:23:23 pkhuong: Try wmii which is scripted in bash, not some crazy lua, lisp or haskell ;) 14:24:16 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dinaywnogptprosa] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:25:05 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:21 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:29:54 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:31:10 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:15 Joreji [~thomas@64-035.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:35:00 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:36:28 kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.161] has joined #lisp 14:36:28 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.161] has quit [Changing host] 14:36:28 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:36:57 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 14:39:34 morning 14:39:45 Hello slyrus_. 14:40:09 tcleval [~funnyguy@187.58.90.214] has joined #lisp 14:40:23 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-233-194-28.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 14:41:16 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.67.12] has quit [Quit: sellout] 14:41:57 congratulations to the ABCL developer, nice work! 14:42:21 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-200-169.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:42:23 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:42:49 "ABCL on Maxima", isn't it the other way around? 14:43:16 Is it really normal that I can't explicitly ignore the VAR of DOTIMES because the var is being incremented internally? 14:43:17 I dont know, but it is cool anyway 14:43:39 Hexstream: why would you want to ignore it anyway? 14:43:52 also, note INGORABLE 14:44:13 As an alternative for (loop repeat x do stuff) 14:44:19 Hexstream: The spec actually says that in all standardized DOFOO macros, the iteration variables should essentially be declared IGNORABLE by the implementation itself 14:44:26 I don't want to have to name the variable, and I can't use NIL. 14:44:38 here you go again 14:44:42 use i! 14:44:46 Hexstream: (dotimes (#.(gensym) $n$) ...) ? 14:44:47 unfortunately I'm not aware of any implementation which gets that completely right 14:45:17 Why don't you just use loop repeat? 14:45:32 Jabberwockey [~jens@s1510.dyn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:14 (dolist (foo '(1 2 3)) (print ".")) produces a "The variable FOO is defined but never used." warning... 14:46:14 tcleval: #abcl might be more delighted hearing such cheering 14:46:30 Yes it's a bug 14:46:34 nyef: lol... not for me I guess. 14:46:51 I'm seriously trying to get rid of LOOP. 14:47:06 I succeeded in finding alternatives I like in all but a few cases. 14:47:27 huh 14:47:28 But. why? 14:47:45 stassats: yes it seems to be the wrong way around 14:48:22 -!- ehu changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: Maxima on ABCL, SBCL 1.0.43, Bordeaux-Threads 0.8.0, CMUCL 20b 14:48:47 tcleval: tcr is right, but thanks anyway. 14:49:03 tcleval: are you planning to use it? 14:49:08 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:49:37 LOOP is unlispy (not enough parentheses and quite unlike the rest of the language), it's a virus (if you want to use ONE of its features you have to convert your whole iteration construct to LOOP, and eventually EVERYTHING looks like a LOOP), and ditching it makes me appreciate other, more specific parts of the language more. 14:49:48 I like stumpwm on low res screens, for emacs reasons. 14:49:50 nonsense 14:50:26 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:44 It may be nonsense, but I'm demonstrably right on all three counts. 14:50:52 Except you aren't 14:51:12 ehu: where was the most of the problems, ABCL being non-ansi enough, or Maxima being written in non-ansi enough CL? 14:52:02 stassats: out of the last 9 tests, the problem was mostly Maxima testing for exact floating point outcomes which were off on the last digit in ABCL. 14:52:06 isn't ITERATE for people who hate loop? 14:52:06 Is it not true that LOOP is quite unlike the rest of the language? Is it not true that to use even one of LOOP's features you have to convert your whole statement to LOOP? Is it not true that not using LOOP makes you use other parts of the language more? 14:52:17 stassats: (about half of them) 14:53:01 Hexstream: Is it not true that if these things mattered more to others, they too would agree with you? 14:53:05 Fade, iterate? Why did nobody tell me about this before? 14:53:23 ITERATE is for people who think the concept of LOOP is acceptable but that the default syntax and implementation are not as good as it could be. It is true that ITERATE is better than LOOP on many counts. But if you come to the conclusion that LOOP is a bad concept in itself, which you probably won't, then ITERATE is not suitable either. 14:53:25 Hexstream: I don't find any of those three to be an intrinsic good 14:53:30 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:53:33 stassats: the rest 50/50 ABCL not being CL enough (failing to signal a condition on float-overflow) and Maxima not expecting CL enough (it not digging underflow errors, but expecting 0 instead) 14:53:42 i use LOOP all the time, though i still use DOLIST, DOTIMES, MAP*, when they're enough 14:53:48 except DO 14:54:00 ehu: i see 14:54:06 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:46 Hexstream: I'll give you that (a) LOOP is different from most of the rest of the language [although not the 'rest'] and (c) that converting from LOOP is helping you use other parts of the language more. I don't follow (b) - dropping a (loop repeat x do ...) in doesn't really make ... completely LOOPy. 14:54:48 DO itself is a bit of a heavyweight... 14:55:36 PROGV is the real deal! 14:56:04 my only beef with loop when I started with lisp was that emacs/slime at the time wasn't very good at formating loop constructs. 14:56:11 *nyef* shudders in memory of his last encounter with PROGV. 14:56:16 now it is, so I don't think twice about it. 14:56:16 err, PROG 14:56:38 splittist: I think I'll have a better taste of when to use LOOP if I visit both extremes of loving it and using it indiscriminately and hating it and never using it even if it would make sense. And then I can find the right balance. But so far, experience seems to tell me I'll tip way more on almost never using it than using it a lot. 14:57:14 finding the mean by living at the edges of an envelope isn't necessarily the best pedagogical approach. ;) 14:57:56 It's a bit like how Stallman is too extreme, but it helps us find the right balance ;P 14:58:31 *ehu* doesn't feel he needs help to find balance 14:58:50 i find finding balance by finding balance to be a better approach 14:59:09 and the point is made explicitly. :) 14:59:10 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:59:42 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:01:37 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:45 stassats: How would you know what warm is if you never experienced both hot and cold? 15:02:19 by experiencing warm 15:03:26 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:03:28 How would you know to call that experience "warm" if you knew no other temperature? 15:03:35 we have imagination so we can experience things in simulation without actually, you know, dieing to find out what life is. 15:03:41 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:43 this is a pointless discussion 15:03:48 yes 15:03:51 stassats: Agreed. 15:04:06 let's discuss anaphoric macros instead! 15:04:13 Haha ;P 15:04:15 heh 15:04:51 Let's discuss PG's great lisp style and Arc, the future of lisp. 15:04:58 space_ghost [616a98cb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.97.106.152.203] has joined #lisp 15:05:04 Hexstream: ##arc is that way. 15:05:33 I like the way you don't have a direction there 15:05:34 let's just agree to hate newLisp and talk about something interesting, like window managers! 15:05:37 Can't tell if you didn't get my sarcasm or I didn't get yours ;p 15:06:11 *p_l|uni* found out that Eclipse is still too heavy a tool on 2G machine to use 15:06:22 Eclipse, the window manager? 15:06:36 or Eclipse the Java OS? 15:07:28 Eclipse, the award-winning fantasy film? 15:07:42 Wait, I'm thinking of the CL library CLON. 15:08:00 *Xach* can't wait to heckle that talk at ILC 15:08:12 ehu: the Java integrated bullshit environment 15:08:14 Xach: which one? 15:08:25 Hexstream: Graham doesn't care for the extended LOOP macro either, so there's at least one point of style on which you agree. 15:08:49 there was a lot of dissent around loop during standardisation. 15:08:54 rme: One too many! 15:09:16 stassats: the CLON talk 15:09:29 i mean which CLON 15:09:34 Exactly! 15:09:48 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:09:49 p_l|uni: that environment will keep growing; it'll stay ahead of processing power and memory growth and won't be an option to be run anywhere but mainframes 15:10:21 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:10:28 ehu: the thing is, I really wonder how I manage to get everything so swapping like hell with just FF, Chrome, Emacs and small project loaded into Eclipse 15:10:39 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 15:11:00 i see you like duplicating applications 15:11:12 Fade: Let me guess: my objections are old and boring. 15:11:17 p_l|uni: just loading Eclipse would have been enough 15:11:31 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:11:45 ehu: what do you use for ABCL? 15:11:50 Netbeans 15:11:54 or emacs 15:11:59 Hexstream: lets just say that the arguments have been made, and the decision is set in stone. 15:12:06 so, ignore loop if you want. :) 15:12:16 emacs mostly, but Netbeans for profiling and debugging Java side 15:12:34 Hexstream: LOOP is part of the ansi standard, like it or not. avoiding loop will probably not hurt your common lisp style, although there are places where using other idioms makes you look ignorant because loop provides for the easy and readable alternative. 15:12:37 ehu: what do you use for writing Java in Emacs? 15:12:48 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@s1510.dyn.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:13:02 p_l|uni: nothing special; just C mode. 15:13:06 Fade: I shall. It will be a great way to keep people out of my codebases, HAHAHA. 15:13:21 H4ns: Oh no, you mean I could look ignorant? Can't have that. 15:13:43 p_l|uni: if there are better options, I'll gladly hear them. 15:14:47 if you're really just against iterative constructs in general (you haven't said, but implied as much in your criticism of iterate) maybe scheme would be more to your taste. 15:14:58 *Fade* shrugs 15:15:09 There's only one idiom where I feel LOOP clearly wins over the alternatives: (loop for form = (read my-stream nil nil) while form do stuff) 15:15:20 but recursion is iteration 15:15:53 yes, well. 15:17:21 ehu: I recently looked into it (slightly Lisp related, even), because JDE is old and unmaintained. There's a new mode, I compiled it but haven't tested it yet, that replaces JDE and supposedly includes even code completion for Java 15:17:37 Fade: I am not against iteration at all. I gladly use DOLIST and other similar constructs. And while I use and appreciate recursion when appropriate, I don't like to use it because it's frequently harder to read than other paradigms, and also it's less understandable to other people and though I'm a nonconformist I don't want to alienate people gratuitiously and arbitrarily for no good reason either. 15:18:21 p_l|uni: code completion would be nice. ABCL doesn't exactly have short method names. It's where Netbeans clearly improves on Emacs. 15:18:28 at least, emacs as I use it. 15:18:37 I meant I don't like to use recursion when there are clear alternatives that are more readable.. 15:19:14 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:21:40 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:48 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:23:33 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:24:44 ehu: it's malabar-mode, however it doesn't really work on projects that don't use Maven right now 15:25:01 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:11 hehe. that seems to exclude use with ABCL. 15:25:20 well, it's at least worth a look. 15:25:39 ehu: the author wrote that if someone contributes support for non-maven projects, it will get added, but he is maven-only developer :D 15:26:02 fair enough. 15:28:34 *splittist* is a happy abcl user, but is frightened of the sheer vastness of [the] Java [ecosystem] 15:30:36 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:48 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-251-99.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:31:23 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:32:18 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 15:34:56 varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:35:47 daniel___ [~daniel@p50829FEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:20 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 15:37:34 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082BC33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:38:05 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 15:38:12 So, zip2 (as it exists in a brutally hacked about version on my machine) can unzip docx's (which is nice, because I replaced the Allegro inflate with the quicklisp one), and can unzip zip archives it creates itself; but some archives it creates itself can't be unzipped by WinZIP or MS Word. 15:40:40 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:40 -!- space_ghost [616a98cb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.97.106.152.203] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:40:57 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-11-134.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 15:41:04 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:41:24 on a byte-for-byte level, there are endless differences between what this libraries does and what others do. 15:41:44 Perhaps it would be worth trying to emulate one of them exactly: Write a byte-for-byte comparator which ignores only file times, and then hack until there's no remaining difference. 15:42:57 (It doesn't write the unix extensions, for example.) 15:47:24 lichtblau: yeah - hexl-mode is my friend (not a very good friend...). Still, you've done all the hard work, so I can't complain (except about proprietary underspecified specs) (: 15:47:45 hmmm... it seems the bog offender is Chrome, not Eclipse. 15:48:42 *big 15:51:37 Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-206-11.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:53:42 -!- Krystof [~csr21@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:39 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:53 How to set a Javascript variable to a Lisp list iin Parenscript ? http://paste.lisp.org/+2GWX 15:56:54 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-117-17.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:16 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-251-99.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 15:57:36 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:58:18 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:29 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-206-11.uio.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 16:00:11 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754eba.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:09 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:15 drdo [~user@93.108.192.98] has joined #lisp 16:02:36 prljavi_hari1 [~h@dh207-34-98.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 16:03:38 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-11-134.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:04:59 ehu: yes, and I plain to build an archlinux package from it? 16:05:05 oops.. no ? there 16:05:28 s/\?// 16:05:32 hmmm... defservice got ported to hunchentoot, one file less to write! 16:06:46 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:09:25 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:11:24 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:59 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 16:13:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-035.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:15:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.231.174] has joined #lisp 16:17:04 enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:07 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:17:26 -!- prljavi_hari1 [~h@dh207-34-98.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 16:17:50 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has left #lisp 16:18:06 Hello ... is there a straightforward way to do a dynamically local binding of a symbol's function cell? 16:19:00 no 16:19:09 billitch [~billitch@host.154.243.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:21 ok, that's what I thought, just wanted to be sure -- thank you 16:19:26 enn: just use funcall for when you need such functionality 16:20:35 -!- xan_ [~xan@i60-42-245-71.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:21:49 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:21:50 enn: funcall a function in a dynamic variable 16:22:03 splittist: I like vbindiff 16:22:19 in a dynamic variable? 16:22:28 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 16:22:49 enn: also restarts are dynamically bound functions (but most probably implemented on top of function clusteres in a special variable) 16:23:11 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:14 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:29 -!- gz` [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 16:23:29 p_l|uni, tcr: yeah, maybe I can do that. I was hoping to write a macro that would intercept calls to certain functions made within its body, without requiring any function that might be invoked from the body to be made aware of it 16:23:42 tcr: ah, I hadn't thought of restarts, that might be a way to go, thanks 16:24:03 enn: maybe you want something on top of TRACE? 16:25:01 which basically is uwp + (setf symbol-function); which might be ok if you are not using threads 16:25:11 -!- gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:25:31 Bronsa [~bronsa@host246-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:25:32 josemanuel [~josemanue@78.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:25:33 Pavitra [~pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:04 -!- gz_ is now known as gz 16:26:16 hmmm ... that might work; I want to be able to prevent the function from running, looks like I could do that with TRACE :break and invoking a restart 16:26:18 gz: hey! 16:26:52 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:27:11 lichtblau: thanks 16:27:21 enn: well, that sounds easy. just have your macro expand into LABELS where each local function is (FUNCALL *VAR*) 16:28:10 will not work for cl stuff though :-) 16:28:25 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:28:41 Case in point: SB-INT:COLLECT won't allow to name a buck VALUES because it expands to a MACROLET involving that name 16:28:48 s/buck/bucket/ 16:28:55 cmm: not sure I follow, LABELS are only in scope within the body lexically, right? so that won't affect calls to the the functions that are further down the stack 16:29:19 but maybe I'm not understanding you correctly 16:30:37 Xach: could you add pf's version of defservice into quicklisp? http://github.com/pf/defservice/ 16:31:05 (maybe there should be a nice,fast and easy script to prepare submissions to QL... kinda like cabal upload? XD) 16:31:31 enn: ah, I see. 16:32:04 tcleval: very nice. How often does archlinux allow updating of released packages? 16:32:21 p_l|uni: i'll check it out 16:32:34 enn: define a DEFDYNFUN macro, then, just make sure it agrees with your local-binding macro on the hidden variable names 16:33:09 jmbr [~jmbr@229.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:33:10 ehu: arch is a "rolling distribution", apparently 16:33:35 ah. that's - in this case - a very nice thing. 16:34:01 cmm: ah, that makes sense, thanks 16:34:37 enn: won't be able to dynamically rebind regular functions, though, but I doubt you really want that 16:35:41 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:43 cmm: no, just one or two specific user functions I have in mind, so I think a DEFDYNFUN would work fine 16:35:50 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:35:59 lemoinem [~swoog@116-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:44 be warned that the style police will loudly frown on the name "DEFDYNFUN"; DEFINE-DYNAMIC-FUNCTION would be more fashionable :) 16:37:10 yeah :) 16:38:16 really? def-dyn-fun or definedynamicfunction are strictly forbidden. But defdynfun is pretty normal. 16:39:19 just DDF 16:39:42 defdynun (only one F in defun...) 16:39:51 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:40:10 dedynfun? 16:41:14 sorry about starting this, dear world! 16:41:45 in before DEFUN* 16:42:24 i bet DEFUN* is already used, so you'll have to settle on DEFUN** 16:42:54 Well, being dynamic, how about *defun* ? 16:43:11 also, you can avoid symbol naming headaches by just using earmuffs in the function names. so that *FUNCTION*'s function binding is (funcall *FUNCTION*), end of story 16:43:53 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:44:00 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:34 it's called define-layered-function! 16:47:54 drewc: it's part of AspectL or ContextL? 16:47:58 contextl 16:48:06 in fact, it _is_ contextl really. 16:48:31 that is, context oriented programming is based around the idea of composable dynamically scoped functions 16:48:51 I was thinking I should be looking at contextl for this 16:49:03 haven't ever really used it yet though 16:49:15 -!- cen___ [~cen@rrcs-208-125-13-148.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 16:50:22 (deflayer foo) (define-layered-method bar () 'bar) (define-layered-method bar :in-layer foo () (cons 'foo (call-next-layered-method))) (with-active-layers (foo) (bar)) => (FOO . BAR) 16:50:31 enn: that's about all you need to know :) 16:50:34 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host246-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:50:59 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:09 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:10 yeah, contextl is awesome :) 16:51:32 Bronsa [~bronsa@host246-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:51:42 drewc: huh, nice, I'll have to grab it, seems straightforward 16:52:20 enn: you need a fully supporting CL. ABCL won't work (yet) 16:52:38 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:52:48 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:52:51 yeah, full MOP is a requirement. 16:53:02 ok, I assume it works with SBCL though? 16:53:16 OTOH, porting http://p-cos.net/context-scheme.html over to CL would be a trivial task and get you most of the way there 16:53:24 enn: yeah, works great with SBCL 16:54:55 drewc: do you do all of the web developement *inside* lisp or are you using some extra libraries (in JS, for example) "outside" Lisp (i.e. parts that weren't generated by lisp code at some point) 16:54:59 speaking of which - with 458 responses, http://goo.gl/kRoP has the chart of "What CLs do you use?" 16:55:30 wow, GCL got more responses than SCL 16:55:49 p_l|uni: i think my choice of announcement venue skewed the results 16:55:59 Anarch [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 16:56:05 p_l|uni: i use jquery for JS things and a tend towards yahoo grids for a css framework 16:56:14 i don't think it's representative of CL in general, but in context, it's interesting to me. 16:56:37 the survey link is going out in an franz or allegro newsletter of some sort this week 16:56:39 i don't use parenscript since the change of direction... too much headache for too little benefit. 16:57:44 wow. some 25 replies for ABCL! 16:57:54 drewc: I've been experimenting with making the interface in GWT (effectively Java) and doing only a RPC api in lisp, but I'm not yet convinced I'm doing the right thing (but I suck at web design and there's no money for designer, heh!) 16:59:12 p_l|uni: well, that's the way some major lisp using org does it, but FWIW i have it from on high that they somewhat regret the choice, and if there was better lisp web stuff available at the time, they would have gone another way. 16:59:46 me, you couldn't pay me enough to touch java, and i don't need the extra billable hours + headache, so i tend to keep it as simple as possible. 16:59:52 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:00:07 Xach: I like the mod 78 tickmarks - very human... 17:00:38 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:00:58 -!- talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:01:11 -!- billitch [~billitch@host.154.243.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:01:19 billitch [~billitch@host.154.243.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:39 drewc: well, right now I don't have time to develop the thing I'd like to have, but in my long-term project, one of the parts GWT-like thing done completely in Lisp 17:07:52 that is, no JS visible unless you want to. 17:09:05 *drewc* doesn't like the GWT approach whatsoever, and doesn't mind javascript for interacting with the browser 17:09:31 perhaps it's because i've spend more time fighting javascript generators now then i have fighting javascript :) 17:09:41 spent* 17:09:43 drewc: haha 17:09:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.231.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:09:58 *drewc* 's grammer is reverting to french today for some raison 17:10:24 Nitrogen appears interesting in that area as well, but I want to kick the "design" part of it... might be doable with some "Ajaxy" designer, though 17:11:43 *drewc* does all his work in plain html, and adds _minimal_ javascript, that degrades well, for select features. 17:12:02 rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-218-131.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:20 drewc: well, the exact details of that will go when I have money to "idle" on that :) 17:12:54 though I suspect that I'll be able to reasonably well expect full JS "HTML5" experience for the target domain 17:13:04 calendars widgets... great place for JS. Tab layout widgets in js? you're doing it wrong! :) 17:13:27 urandom__ [~user@p548A2C73.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:34 hear hear 17:13:51 gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:32 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-251-99.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:15:14 "something that is supposed to act close to how a desktop application acts" <--- probably will require quite a lot of JS xD 17:16:13 always thought the desktop was a terrible metahphor personally... i much prefer working in hypertext :) 17:17:26 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:17:40 heh. The "desktop" for me means (in computing context) "computer that was placed on/used at a desk". :-) 17:17:55 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:12 Plus, I'm trying to get something usable by non-technical people who want to create an application for their own use 17:18:36 fair enough.. haven't had one of those in years... does "Navigation Table Application" mean anything useful? :) 17:18:58 ... lack of data, please elaborate :D 17:19:08 *drewc* lives on a boat, does not have a desk 17:19:23 ah, right. forgot about that 17:19:34 drewc: you're on a boat? 17:19:51 *p_l|uni* started using some maritime metaphors himself, makes for easier and clearer communication with current client 17:19:52 p_l|uni: so a desktop is used for: Facebook, Twitter, reading blogs, watching youtube, reading newspapers, booking holidays, interfacing with the web-based HR system, logging into salesforce, a terminal emulator for the old inventry management system, and using MS Word like a very annoying typewriter. And Outlook. 17:19:58 I think you'll be interested in talking to archimag :) 17:20:08 *Adamant* wonders how many times drewc has heard that joke 17:20:16 Adamant: a mf'n boat :) 17:20:20 :P 17:20:23 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-72-142.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:20:56 splittist: I think it was rather obvious that I meant "application running on it". Something that has most of the code running remotely on a server and you only access a frontend doesn't count as a pure desktop app... 17:21:36 But exact details of *how* it will look and behave in the end depend on further research. I'm trying not to fall into the trap of desiging a project without it :) 17:22:29 p_l|uni: I guess what I'm saying is that there aren't many of those left in the wild. Throw in MS's servery thing with the name I can't remember and even the office apps are just clients. The Outlook is Cloudy. (groan) 17:22:41 SharePoint 17:23:39 splittist: till you look at the space of various small (or not so small) apps that are local to a single company and are never meant to be used outside. All crazy automation tools cobbled together with VBA, VB6, Delphi and used to somehow get more stuff done 17:24:38 which is my target :) 17:24:46 p_l|uni: fair enough. But I wonder if the brief really means 'make the app look like our cobbleware, not the pro stuff we pay big bucks for' (: 17:25:16 I'm just trying to give you an excuse not to cleave to the 'desktop' metaphor. 17:25:49 splittist: the decision will be taken when I get something to experiment on and have a look at what people will actually prefer in the long run 17:26:29 I'm actually going to be enforcing sort-of design guidelines in it, so that it won't look as cobbleware as it might :D 17:26:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-107.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:30:15 Ok, now I know why most of the documentation on RESTAS is in Russian. archimag doesn't speak english. Any volunteers for translation? 17:30:25 google? 17:31:00 google translates so good that nobody outside RU uses RESTAS. 17:31:22 RESTAS? 17:31:25 o.O 17:31:25 -!- wareya_ is now known as wareya 17:31:35 http://www.cliki.net/RESTAS 17:32:25 Hm. 17:32:31 Sounds interesting. 17:34:36 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:54 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:34 -!- splittist [~John@195-130.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 17:36:58 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:37:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:38:57 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:40:44 claint [~user@88.247.119.253] has joined #lisp 17:41:38 YO 17:41:42 how to unbind a function? 17:41:48 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-233-194-28.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:00 OliverUv: fmakunbound 17:42:03 fmakunbound 17:42:05 :( 17:42:15 thanks 17:42:50 i should practice more and next time i'll win 17:45:22 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 17:49:11 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-218-131.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 17:50:38 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:50:55 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.248] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 17:51:12 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:51:52 -!- billitch [~billitch@host.154.243.23.62.rev.coltfrance.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:59:40 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 18:00:29 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:00:46 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:08 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:02:01 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:20 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:32 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:04:06 any way of getting a function object with the symbol, instead of the string? 18:04:12 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-138-192-80.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:26 (I need to use fboundp, which takes a symbol, to check if a function is defined) 18:05:05 (fboundp (find-symbol name package))? 18:05:13 oh, that works? 18:05:23 nice yeah I guess it should work :) 18:05:23 thanks 18:05:25 why shouldn't it? 18:05:38 Yeah, but make sure your FIND-SYMBOL call is doing what you expect. 18:06:50 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:06:55 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.54.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:07:04 right now I am doing stuff like (when (function-defined "myfun") (funcall (function-defined "myfun"))) 18:07:20 expecting function-defined to return nil in case of the function not existing 18:07:20 looks fishy 18:07:52 my function-defined used to just be (find-symbol str-arg 'common-lisp-user) 18:07:58 why are you calling functions by strings? 18:08:04 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:08:10 but I noticed that will return symbols if the function has been defined 18:08:13 or if some other symbol exists 18:08:38 stassats: seemed to be the appropriate way at the time, that was like 2 months ago 18:08:44 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.194.198] has joined #lisp 18:08:48 I don't remember the exact reason 18:09:10 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:09:12 it didn't seem appropriate two months ago to me 18:09:50 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:11:32 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:11:48 i think the problem was I couldn't just put the symbol name in there, because the SBCL compiler would complain that it was unbound or something 18:12:02 so I used find-symbol to get past that 18:12:09 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-74-71.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:14:15 OliverUv: you know there are ways not to evaluate a symbol yet having it in your source code, right? 18:14:32 I heard of quote. 18:14:34 :p 18:14:43 next time: use it. 18:14:44 yeah I can't really figure out why I did it this way 18:15:07 oh yeah 18:15:29 I didn't want to use the symbol because then it might interfere with defining a function with that name later on 18:15:33 .... perhaps 18:15:37 would that be a good reason? 18:16:17 I don't know. I should have the code in working order now though. 18:16:47 OliverUv: can i tactfully suggest you review your favorite lisp book? Specifically, the parts on symbols, packages, the reader, etc. 18:17:16 I should indeed 18:17:21 drewc: you tactfully would suggest - like - cover to cover? :-) 18:17:23 No time for it, though :C 18:17:43 perhaps in a couple of years 18:17:51 when I do my next lisp project 18:18:02 :'( Java 18:18:03 OliverUv: but you have time to flail about writing random code you don't understand? 18:18:40 drewc: I already did flail around doing that. Now I have modified it to do things properly. 18:18:46 or maybe an EQUAL hash table of name -> function would work better than abusing the package system. 18:19:30 pkhuong: I need to dynamically determine whether some functions have been defined, without the person defining the functions knowing anything about it 18:19:59 so I can't have them push anything to the hashtable or anything 18:20:07 rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-218-131.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:12 Krystof [~csr21@nat79.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:20:43 gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:58 -!- zc00gii_ is now known as zc00gii 18:21:12 *drewc* mumbles something about that being an odd requirement and gets back to work 18:21:31 Axius_ [~fd@109.97.45.234] has joined #lisp 18:23:15 drewc: making a gui for beginner comp-sci students, they'll be editing a backend and the gui should detect whether some functions are defined and use them as appropriate 18:23:17 OliverUv: "have them"? Have you heard of macros? 18:24:05 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@78.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:24:17 Yes. We these labs are being done before they understand macros. 18:24:19 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:32 We want the code they write to be as clean, simple, and non-involved as possible 18:24:41 that's why we're using lisp to teach, instead of say Java 18:24:46 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-251-99.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 18:25:05 OliverUv: you're teaching? 18:25:42 OliverUv: you don't have to understand macros to use them. DEFUN is a macro. 18:25:52 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:26:25 pkhuong: yes, I know. I don't really want to dive in and muck about with those things - as you can see I don't have a full grasp on the reader and its workings yet 18:26:41 OliverUv: you're teaching? 18:26:42 ehu: nope, just adding a gui to some previously existing lab software 18:26:59 ok. 18:27:57 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:28:00 OliverUv: would this work? (or (ignore-errors #'function-to-be-defined) #'function-default) 18:28:03 -!- Axius_ [~fd@109.97.45.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:29 then funcall that? 18:28:53 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:29:13 -!- bobbysmith0071 is now known as bobbysmith007 18:30:22 bobbysmith0071: I'm not sure, probably? Right now I'm expecting nil in case of function not existing and a symbol bound to the function if it exists 18:30:51 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-186-230.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:31:13 sane men shouldn't allow themselves to be anywhere near ignore-errors 18:33:36 Am I remembering correctly that GCL was, for a long time (i.e. as recently as the late 90s early 00s), notably non-ANSI compliant compared to some other impls? 18:33:42 -!- nikodemus changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: Maxima on ABCL, SBCL 1.0.43, Bordeaux-Threads 0.8.0, CMUCL 20b, SBCL User Survey http://random-state.net/sbcl-survey-2010.html 18:34:00 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:01 yes 18:34:02 gigamonkey: is it ansi compliant already? 18:34:06 i think it still 18:34:40 is. i believe "ansi-enough-to-run-acl2" is where things stand currently, but could be mistaken 18:35:27 acl2? i thought gcl was developed for the use by Maxima 18:35:28 and no official release for last two years, afaik 18:35:35 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-156-118.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:37:51 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 18:37:54 gigamonkey: The last release 2.8.0pre(?) is still missing some significant parts of CL. There has been some significant work in the last few months, though. Don't know if any of the work makes it more CL compliant. 18:38:08 I was just checking that the 1994 release as GCL (I.e. the year the ANSI standard was finished) wasn't made to bring it up to date. 18:39:02 which reminds me, dtc said he didn't think he would fix the *d-p-d* bug. 18:39:18 stassats: Don't know about that, but it certainly helped that gcl and the finally open-sourced version of maxima were done by the same person. 18:39:52 Xach: is it that hard to fix? 18:40:14 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-251-99.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:40:23 stassats: it seemed to have an impact on scieneer's URIs-as-pathnames feature 18:41:09 (And we owe him a great thanks for getting the license to maxima finally clarified.) 18:41:39 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:42:01 Anyone here happen to know anything about the early history of CLISP? The ChangeLog in the latest distribution goes back to 1997 18:43:08 That's about the time I first used clisp. Maybe 95. (Memory is going.) I think Bruno or Sam could give you more info. 18:43:11 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 18:43:29 rtoym: yeah. I'll email them. 18:43:39 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 18:43:42 gigamonkey: http://clisp.sourceforge.net/impnotes/clisp-history.html 18:44:30 stassats: thanks. 18:44:41 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:24 Heh. I'm still a CLISP developer according to Sourceforge. 18:45:31 stassats: which ECL are you using? 18:45:38 does your patch fix it? 18:45:55 Fare: see my reply on LP 18:45:58 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:46:36 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754eba.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:36 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-251-99.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 18:46:51 Xach: are you happy with asdf 2.133 ? 18:47:07 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-251-99.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:47:16 -!- mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:48:23 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:29 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@229.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:49:56 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50:10 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-251-99.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:43 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:51:38 stassats, do you have errors from gcc? 18:51:53 no 18:52:19 can you build with :verbose t and paste / attach the log? 18:52:47 with (t t) or without? 18:52:57 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:12 both if possible 18:53:13 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 18:53:30 in any case, without (t t) it tries to use the default ~/.cache/, which isn't suitable for me 18:53:31 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:54:10 I don't remember what (t t) is meant to do -- probably override the ~/.cache behaviour 18:54:53 :verbose t doesn't reveal anything new 18:58:24 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:00:20 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:41 *Xach* has a brain-teaser 19:01:15 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host246-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:01:48 Say I have written a method on asdf:find-system and I really want to know if asdf:find-system is being called as part of evaluating (asdf:defsystem ...). Is there an easy way? Or a hard, gross, but working way? 19:02:09 *Xach* ain't scared of ::, either 19:02:38 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:03:20 phrixos [~clarkema@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has joined #lisp 19:03:39 Xach: sb-debug:backtrace-as-list? 19:04:43 Am I being dumb or is there no email address on this page: http://sites.google.com/site/juanjosegarciaripoll/contact 19:04:51 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:05:26 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-218-131.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 19:05:37 Bronsa [~bronsa@host246-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:05:59 Xach: TRACE? 19:06:11 gigamonkey: apparently he wants you to email him at his public PGP key 19:06:33 gigamonkey: i don't see either, but there's juanjose.garciaripoll@googlemail.com 19:06:35 gigamonkey, Definitely not there, you are official not dumb 19:06:38 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 19:06:49 stassats: thanks. 19:07:09 maybe it's encrypted? 19:07:24 gigamonkey: That is not evidence for your dumbness, at least :) 19:08:05 Last night's debugging session, however, was. 19:08:09 urandom_ [~user@p548A466B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:14 no, but you can extract the address from the public key 19:08:16 Seibel's 1st Law with a vengeance. 19:08:27 phrixos: how's that? 19:08:29 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:08:32 rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-218-131.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:51 save that public key block to file, call it foo 19:09:05 507 clarkema@loki:~/pgp> gpg --import foo 19:09:06 gpg: key 9C9213DD: "Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll " not changed 19:09:08 gpg: Total number processed: 1 19:09:11 gpg: unchanged: 1 19:09:28 lol awesome 19:09:47 Great new way to avoid spam 19:09:55 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:09:59 Might want to put some instructions there, though 19:10:08 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2C73.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:10:08 probably avoid quite a few none spam contacts as well though 19:10:24 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:10:29 of course now we just give his email address to all the spammers 19:10:34 Heh. 19:10:51 spammers can scan for pgp keys 19:11:02 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:14 well if they weren't they probably are now, 19:12:17 good thing this channel isn't publicly logged, so his careful attempts to hide his email address from the web won't be easily defeated! 19:12:42 yep, his secret is safe with us 19:13:12 I was going to tell my geek friends about it 19:13:52 It says something about me that I did actually find the fact he hide his email as PGP key rather amusing 19:13:59 nyef: looking for asdf::parse-component-form, then? 19:14:24 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host246-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:14:34 it's not against spammers, but against dumb emailers 19:14:52 Bronsa [~bronsa@host246-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:15:15 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host246-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:15:30 Well it had most of us stumped 19:15:30 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 19:15:37 "must try harder" 19:16:24 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 19:16:43 -!- benny [~benny@i577A16C0.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:52 it's possible that his mailer won't accept mail that isn't signed to that key, if he's feeling really paranoid 19:17:43 well, i had his email from ecl mailing list, so he wasn't to cautious, after all 19:17:49 anyway, Xach, I have a vecto question 19:18:17 Ok! 19:18:21 I'm trying to make a line with 1px width, but failing even with (set-line-width 1) 19:18:38 *gigamonkey* has a poll too! 19:18:39 http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2010/10/05/lisp-implementorsmaintainers-poll/ 19:18:45 am i missing something obvious? My lines always end up having non-unit width 19:19:20 stassats, what about *compile-verbose* t *compile-print* t ? 19:19:25 phrixos: I'm guessing you mean a horizontal or vertical line? 19:19:26 for example, http://clarkema.org/scratch/qgraph.png - you can see that the lines aren't as thin as they could be, because where they meet they go half way into the line they abut 19:19:42 yup, like the axes and tick marks on that graph 19:19:44 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:15 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:08 phrixos: There is a site that gives a nice visual explanation for it, but I don't know where it is, but the origin in Vecto is at 0,0. So if you were to draw a 1-px circle there, it would "touch" four pixels, not 1. 19:21:13 Fare: nothing interesting other than saying "compiling that file" and "bum, error' 19:21:15 Bronsa [~bronsa@host246-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:21:55 phrixos: similarly, if you have a line from 0,0 to 10,0, with a width 1, it will touch more than 20 pixels, approximately. 19:22:46 *Xach* makes an example image 19:23:16 so in effect it touches pixels on either side of a line with no width running along the described path? 19:23:52 with no width? 19:24:05 mainly i'm just trying to make something that looks like an rrdtool graph, but what i'm getting at the moment is a bit blocky 19:24:19 well, a line mathematically has no width 19:24:43 obviously that can't be done in real line, but it should be the minimal width achievable in the given medium 19:24:48 s/line/life 19:25:56 gigamonkey: just to clarify -- are you interested in "no, i wasn't involved" too? 19:26:09 nikodemus: yes. 19:26:22 I'm interested in definitive statements in either direction. 19:26:30 sbcl format q: (format nil "~F" 1234567890.123) => "1234568000.0" ... this is a reader issue, right? 19:26:50 Preferably with a real name attached unless you are very shy. 19:26:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-129.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:12 phrixos: If you want something that only touches one row or column of pixels, align it at half units. 19:27:23 -!- kmc [clozure@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 19:27:35 ok, let me have a play 19:28:03 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-138-192-80.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:28:31 blackwolf: that doesn't look right 19:28:31 Xach: That seems odd given how most other graphics libraries appear to work. 19:28:52 phrixos: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115241 19:29:34 nyef: What are some example libraries I can check out? 19:30:00 Isn't CLIM specified to do something different? Doesn't X do something different? 19:30:01 blackwolf: though, it's accurate 19:30:20 nyef: Are those good models to follow? 19:30:41 Doesn't windows do something different, for that matter? 19:30:46 blackwolf: the singificand for single floats isn't that large. 19:30:49 nyef: Is Windows a good model to follow? 19:30:57 They aren't necessarily good models to follow, but their reasoning is well documented. 19:31:16 ok, i've stuck a (translate 0.5 0.5) in there, and that seems to have sorted the whole thing out 19:31:23 looks a lot better now, thanks 19:31:24 phrixos: png! png! 19:31:24 Never mind - added a 'd0' and it works as i thought it should 19:32:30 on its way 19:32:37 satellite latency sucks 19:33:46 http://clarkema.org/scratch/qgraph1.png 19:34:12 hm, some implementations print ~f using exponential notation after 1e7 19:34:21 it seems to have broken the rectangles of the graph itself a bit, but i can sort that 19:34:33 the main thing is the lines are nicer 19:34:36 which doesn't look right, according to CLHS 19:34:43 the_unmaker [d834eb65@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.52.235.101] has joined #lisp 19:34:58 so what does bordeaux threads give one? 19:35:18 the_unmaker: try some new question 19:35:49 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-251-99.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:38:49 is there something like rsync for lisp? 19:39:07 gonzojive [~red@171.66.82.153] has joined #lisp 19:39:20 Xach: for old times sake, here's an updated C@W chart http://www.gigamonkeys.com/coders-at-work-charts/sales-rank.png 19:39:43 -!- Krystof [~csr21@nat79.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:39:51 *gigamonkey* was reminded of wrestling with that 1px line not being 1px wide. 19:40:30 *Xach* was reminded of the C@W chart 19:40:34 how many copies has pcl sold? 19:40:44 and how many c@w? 19:40:57 nikodemus: I think PCL is still under 10k by a bit. 19:41:03 what do you guys think of successful lisp by lamkins? 19:41:19 And C@W is a bit over 22k 19:41:32 is pcl better in most ways or pretty much better over all? I think it seems a good book sofar 19:41:38 -!- claint [~user@88.247.119.253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:57 that's pretty respectable 19:42:25 nikodemus: yeah. If I could just figure out how to keep the curve going up. ;-) 19:42:27 i haven't read the lamkins book, but pcl is excellent 19:42:36 nikodemus: thanks for your poll response. 19:42:52 lamkins book is good too 19:43:00 gigamonkey: pcl+coders at work combo promotion needed obviously :) 19:43:04 note: the_unmaker is gavino 19:43:07 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-138-192-80.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:25 gigamonkey: so what book did you learn lisp from? 19:43:29 curios 19:43:37 i bet from PCL 19:43:38 PCL. ;-) 19:43:39 stassats: how are you? 19:43:39 gigamonkey: what did you use to generate that chart? 19:43:44 i have just only pdfs of all of those, and can't read them tru like i would when they were books 19:43:45 Fade: Vecto. 19:44:00 is it possible to see the code? 19:44:12 the structure of pcl and lamkins are different 19:44:13 *Xach* wonders if it's like sausage and legislation 19:44:16 If you have ugly-filtering googles. 19:44:33 well, I have to deal with my own code every day, so I think i'm set up. :) 19:45:32 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:33 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:46:29 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:47:39 So are pastes just not announced anymore? 19:47:40 you cant learn from a book that didn't exist... 19:47:59 gigamonkey: that's correct 19:47:59 Fade, http://paste.lisp.org/display/115242 19:48:24 thanks! 19:48:27 fe[nl]ix: did someone decide it's better that way? 19:48:52 the_unmaker: well, as it came into existence, I did. 19:49:04 Long ago I read (and was confused by) Winston & Horn. 19:49:15 I read some of PAIP but never finished it. 19:49:20 yeah I have a copy, and that book throws stuff out without explaining it 19:49:26 winston & horn 3rd edition seemed pretty decent to me. by the time i read it, though, i was not learning. 19:49:29 a la mr paul graham in ansi common lisp 19:49:33 And I read the Hyperspec backwards and forward. 19:49:41 woa 19:49:45 thats a lot of pages 19:49:52 Oh, yeah. I guess I read Graham's books somewhere along the way. 19:49:55 gigamonkey: You realize that the_unmaker is a known troll, right? 19:50:03 And when I was working on PCL I sat down and read CLTL2 cover-to-cover. 19:50:05 nyef: yeah. 19:50:25 faux [~user@94.191.151.251.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 19:50:25 not just a duck troll? :) 19:50:49 duck typing? 19:51:08 ezzactly 19:51:10 I don't know why I can't ask questions, I must have been really bad to ge this rep. 19:51:17 Guthur: http://twitter.com/#!/peterseibel/status/22058207542 19:51:28 gigamonkey: a few months ago lisppaste got spammed, which caused minion to flood a lot of channels, so chandler(IIRC) disabled announcements 19:51:50 hehe, very good 19:52:10 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:52:24 Okay, lame to do this but . . . Gigamonkey, bought your "Coders at Work", fantastic fantastic book. 19:52:48 Modius_: thanks! 19:53:50 thank you for putting the book on line giga 19:54:00 the_unmaker: no problem. 19:54:25 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host246-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:54:56 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 19:55:18 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:37 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:56:26 gigamonkey: when c@w will be online? 19:56:42 stassats: there are no plans. 19:57:21 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:21 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:57:21 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 19:57:56 jeti [~jeti@p54B47E9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:17 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 19:59:23 stassats: I have thought about putting up the raw audio, mostly as a contribution to the historical archive. 19:59:54 second the online book thing -- I have the hardback of PCL at home, but forgot to pack it when i came away 19:59:54 Though I'd have to check with my subjects. Which I should probably do sooner rather than later. 20:00:01 so the online refrence is pretty handy 20:00:07 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:00:42 What struck me the most was the degree to which they were all successful by different metrics; but very different. 20:01:53 High-level guys, low-level, different perspectives on testing and development pacing based on their experiences/needs/background.s 20:02:53 so, there's hope for me! 20:03:03 who is Joe Armstrong 20:03:12 invented Erlang 20:03:18 Guthur: ask google. 20:03:48 right, that's sorted that stuttering in the graph as well -- thanks xach 20:04:52 does erlang not provide just as large gorillas as OO languages 20:05:33 I'm going from his quote on C@W website 20:06:18 Guthur: I think his point is that in a functional language, the individual functions, by definition are stand alone. 20:06:31 Or, in any language, if you write your code functionally. 20:06:49 at this point, I think most people want both ebook and hardback copies of books. 20:07:00 ok, makes sense, I suppose there is alot of context in the interview 20:07:05 ebook for travel and hardback for reference 20:07:19 (or softcover,or whatever) 20:07:20 Adamant: well you can get a Kindle version of C@W. 20:07:23 i like audio-books 20:07:27 gigamonkey: ah 20:07:31 *nyef* wants a bookshelf of holding. Too many books, not enough shelves. 20:07:37 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has left #lisp 20:07:46 I want the time to read all the books that catch my eye. . .. 20:07:47 nyef: that's what ebooks are for 20:07:54 Maybe they can sell time on amazon.com 20:08:13 I have not been impressed with the Kindle format. ePub seems much better. 20:08:18 benny [~benny@i577A3110.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:08:23 I don't get ebooks via my usual book acquisition channels. 20:08:24 stassats, can you paste nonetheless? 20:08:48 gigamonkey: epub and pdf are the real standards for ebooks 20:09:00 Fare: what for? it's the same as the one at the bugtracker 20:09:08 Okay, I'm looking for examples from Elder Days of how the same folks working on/with Lisp were also doing other cool CS. E.g. McCarthy working on timesharing; the folks at MIT, BBN, PARC doing Lisp and everything else. 20:09:15 more background for me to understand what's going on. 20:09:16 Any others. 20:09:17 ? 20:09:18 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:29 gigamonkey: AI stuff, of course 20:09:32 gigamonkey, is it still on the first print, or has errata been added by now 20:09:41 the C@W book 20:09:41 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-141.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:09:44 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-141.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:09:52 I believe that one bug has been fixed in ECL, and that there's now a second bug, probably in asdf-ecl or asdf. 20:09:59 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-141.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:10:00 It's in its 5th or 6th printing, I think. 20:10:10 gigamonkey: you mean disappointed with Kindle due to technical reasons, or reasons unrelated to file format itself? 20:10:12 oh cool 20:10:17 Fare: can't you reproduce it yourself? 20:10:21 Though the first two or three printings were all exactly the same--no errors fixed. 20:10:21 steele doing java and fortress? 20:10:30 also, CMlisp? 20:10:39 *p_l|uni* was very happy with .mobi, but very unhappy with what Amazon did to Mobireader 20:11:15 p_l|uni: to date most of the .mobi formatted books I've read (on both iPad and a real Kindle) have had pretty crappy typography. 20:11:29 E.g. blockquotes not distinguishable from the main text. 20:11:33 Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115244 20:11:48 gigamonkey: afaik typography is reader stuff - the file format itself is very-very close to HTML 20:11:49 And one horrible novel that used hyphens for mdashes. 20:11:55 Can you read novel/textbook type books on an EReader suitably? (I haven't been impressed on computer screen vs having the real book)) 20:12:20 p_l|uni: I actually looked a bit at the file format spec and it's a pretty limited subset of HTML compared to ePub. 20:12:32 Modius: that's what I used mobireader for, running on my old Nokia E51. 2" screen at 240x320 made a surprising good tool to read... 20:12:47 gigamonkey: well, it was done for Palm... 20:13:12 Right. But that seems like a bit of an albatross to be dragging around in 2010. 20:13:54 gigamonkey: the nice bits about it were unfortunately also linked to how Mobireader was readily available and had mostly unobtrusive DRM 20:13:55 gigamonkey: are you talking about CL? 20:14:02 stassats: boo! 20:14:31 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-141.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:18:01 stassats, works for me. 20:18:21 what do you have in your asdf configuration? 20:18:34 whoa amazon are giving £10 to signup for the master card, gigamonkey your book could cost me only £4 20:19:14 Guther: cool. Go to Amazon through the links on my websites and I'll be able to buy an extra cup of coffee. ;-) 20:19:37 actually £10 on all purchases about £25 for the first 60 gays 20:19:39 eek 20:19:40 days 20:20:07 gigamonkey, will do 20:20:14 Guthur: how long does that promotion last? 20:20:29 p_l|uni, not sure 20:20:35 Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115244#1 20:20:36 ... also, Amazon got scary recommendation system 20:20:38 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:20:40 I think I might go on a multi order spending spree 20:20:59 or rather they placed my current wishlist in a way that made me scared about it ^^; 20:21:12 p_l|uni, one of there top datamining gurus has recently moved to the company I work for 20:21:16 there/their 20:21:31 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3110.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:33 I am actually hoping to join her team 20:22:28 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:23:00 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:23:26 whoa it seems to be £10 credit on any £25+ purchase, not only at amazon 20:23:58 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06a2b2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 20:24:06 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:24:12 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:01 stassats, still works for me 20:25:38 ok, i'll try to sanitize the environment 20:26:42 what's in your source registry? 20:26:56 Use of relative pathnames make me think something stinks there. 20:27:30 what is "source registry"? 20:27:38 or central-registry 20:27:57 (*DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* #P"/home/stas/lisp/systems/") 20:28:31 is *default-pathname-defaults* a relative pathname, and trivial-features found there? 20:28:41 no 20:29:30 bohanlon [~bohanlon@static-64-61-142-155.isp.broadviewnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:56 (asdf:component-pathname (asdf:find-system :trivial-features)) 20:30:10 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:26 alright, I am setting the rest of the day aside to answer Lisp polls. hit me! 20:30:47 3 in a day is not enough 20:31:10 lisp polls ? 20:31:16 stassats, or maybe your problem is due to some spurious enough-namestring somewhere? or lack of a truename? 20:31:57 => #P"/home/stas/lisp/site/trivial-features/" 20:32:12 fusss: what kind of lisper are you? (a) annoying (b) stupid (c) obsolete (d) poseur (e) all of the above 20:32:15 homie: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp et http://twitter.com/peterseibel/status/26483371517 20:32:24 Fare: (d) 20:32:32 Fare: where is "smug"? 20:32:33 Fare: smug is assumed, I take it. 20:32:36 *gigamonkey* wins! 20:32:45 not in my client! 20:32:55 judges? 20:33:14 gigamonkey, unfortunately your site only goes to amazon.com as far as I can see, not sure if you will get your coffee if I go to the co.uk one 20:33:28 gigamonkey: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/10.10.05 20:33:31 Guthur: ah, yeah, I don't know about that. No worries. 20:33:31 gigamonkey: you might be better off with the new mailing list. hardly any gray-beards on twitter 20:33:46 fusss: ah, good idea. 20:34:08 -!- tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:34:17 gigamonkey: i'm faster by a whopping second 20:34:25 stassats: hum. Is there some magic logical pathnamization to home: happening? 20:34:52 or enough-namestring'ation to same? 20:35:14 *gigamonkey* bows to stassats 20:35:30 Fare: (enough-namestring (asdf:component-pathname (asdf:find-system :trivial-features))) => "lisp/site/trivial-features/" 20:35:39 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-251-99.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 20:35:44 well, clearly i'm in my home directory 20:36:01 Trying to build from mine -- still works. 20:36:15 If you build from /tmp, does it work? 20:36:16 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-129.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:36:20 doesn't work from / either 20:36:43 ugh, it's enoughed without /, let me try tmp 20:37:10 I have no idea what's failing or why. 20:37:14 ok, a different error now 20:37:21 please paste 20:37:24 sure 20:38:23 Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115244#2 20:38:39 note that there are no enough-namestring's in either asdf.lisp or asdf-ecl.lisp 20:38:46 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-220-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38:49 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-220-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:02 backtrace? 20:39:36 someone might be missing a (ensure-directories-exist ...) too 20:40:16 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-241-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:17 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:22 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-241-162.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:49 Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115244#3 20:41:29 stassats, also, you .fas is translated but not your .o -- is that on purpose? Smells like a bug in enable-asdf-binary-locations-compatibility maybe inherited from the original ABL 20:41:42 backtrace not helpful 20:41:55 ecl uses enough-namestring for invoking gcc 20:42:46 i don't remember any problems with the original ABL 20:43:22 btw, anyone here used picolisp? 20:43:29 bug not inherited from ABL. Rather due to ABL doing mapping at component level, and AOT at filename level. 20:44:12 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:22 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:45:37 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-138-192-80.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:46:14 stassats, map-all-source-files nil seems buggy on ecl and clisp. 20:46:24 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:08 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:27 -!- kmc [clozure@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 20:49:19 Fare: the error is coming from perform ((o load-op) (c cl-source-file)) method 20:49:35 1900th line in asdf.lisp 20:49:45 and does some tricks for ecl 20:50:08 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A466B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:32 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:51:16 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-233-194-28.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:51:20 changing it to :when (string= (pathname-type i) "fas") :collect (load i) makes it work 20:52:01 N-14 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:52:01 -!- N-14 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:41 sounds wrong. How could it possibly be working before? 20:52:43 About the SBCL User Survey, "12. What SBCL contribs do you intentionally use?", if I use a socket library that uses sb-bsd-sockets, would that count as "intentional" use? 20:52:59 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:53:02 -!- the_unmaker is now known as use_freebsd 20:53:37 Like, I use a portability layer that works across implementations, but I actually only use SBCL exclusively... 20:54:14 Fare: in my case it fails because .o is situated along .lisp files 20:54:26 if it were somehow alongside .fas, it would work 20:54:59 Hexstream: whatever you consider intentional 20:55:04 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: switching buildings] 20:55:23 the mind boggles 20:55:49 i fumbled the question, basically 20:56:07 nikodemus: Ok. Also, I note that sb-threads is missing. Is that intentional? Or it's not considered a "contrib" anymore since it's enabled by default on x86. Or some other reason... 20:56:16 sb-threads aren't a contrib 20:56:41 sb-thread is? 20:56:52 sb-thread isn't either :) 20:57:02 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-122-74.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:04 ... so it's been moved into core?... 20:57:10 but yeah, i could have asked about that too. better questions next time around 20:57:16 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:17 wasn't it always there? 20:57:27 I vividly remember having to enable sb-thread explicitly and having to compile to use it, until recently... no? 20:57:32 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:33 they've always been in the core, just not built by default outside linux/x86oid 20:57:39 well, it's an optional feature, yes 20:57:57 as well as sb-unicode, and some other things 20:58:06 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 20:58:08 Ah, so some features enabled through the "contrib" system are not actually "contribs"... I'm confused.. 20:58:22 But don't mind that ;P 20:58:33 sb-thread isn't enabled through the "contrib" system 20:58:44 It was until relatively recently... 20:59:08 customize-target-features isn't a "contrib" system 20:59:14 I had to create that file before compiling that pushed :sb-thread onto *features* to enable the compilation of it... I didn't hallucinate that up. 20:59:26 Oh. It isn't?! My bad, my bad. 20:59:28 francogrex [~user@109.130.1.228] has joined #lisp 20:59:35 Hexstream: well, that's it, enabling/disabling an optional feature 20:59:48 Yeah, I didn't remember it was called that. I thought it was for contribs only. 21:00:14 i don't think there is an easy way to disable building a contrib 21:00:30 stassats, first, use map-all-source-files t 21:00:49 using map-all-source-files nil will fail on ECL for that very reason, and I'll disable it. 21:01:27 then, don't change this :unless into a :when, that smells bad. 21:01:59 Fare: but i don't see the logic behind the current code 21:03:01 What's the definition of a contrib? A piece of code made by a third-party that's included in the distribution of the main project? 21:03:17 Fare: with map-all-source-files it works indeed 21:03:36 I don't see any logic either, I'm just keeping what Marc Goffioul wrote. 21:03:57 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:08 Fare: i don't see any logic in keeping unlogical things 21:04:14 Hexstream: contribs are stuff that you need to REQUIRE. things that aren't in sbcl.core to start with 21:04:25 ok, and I was failing to see the error because I was building with disabled translations before I built with your configuration, or some such. 21:04:30 and the fasls were still there 21:04:39 Oh. ok. So it's a bit like a "standard" library that comes with SBCL. 21:04:58 stassats, you fix the bug, you test it, I commit it. Especially if you have automated test code to add to the suite. 21:05:15 I bless thee asdf maintainer for ECL. 21:05:24 specifically such things that are distributed with sbcl, no matter if they originate from a third party (like asdf) or exist only as sbcl-add-ons like sb-rotate-byte 21:06:05 I think I managed to understand a little bit the handler-case: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115247 but have difficulty still with handler-bind.Seems more complex. Is there something significantly more different in handler-bind that needs learning or is just knowing one of the two is enough? 21:06:11 Thanks for the clarifications. It's appreciated. 21:06:18 Fare: i don't even use ECL! 21:06:32 nikodemus: is there anything gained by not including these in the core? 21:06:55 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.82.153] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 21:06:59 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:08 francogrex: handler-case rewinds the stack promptly. However, with handler-bind it's possible to invoke a restart in the context where the condition was thrown. 21:07:27 stassats, then why do you care? Neither do I. 21:07:43 Hexstream: so it is important to master both 21:07:47 I think. I didn't use the condition system a lot so far so I'm not very secure in my "knowledge" ;P 21:07:58 Fare: build simplicity, theoretically smaller cores 21:07:59 well, i test my code on ECL occasionally 21:08:12 and it's good to play an opensource fairy 21:08:30 francogrex: Restarts are a great feature but you can go a long way without mastering them. 21:09:34 *Fare* is sick of playing an opensource Faré 21:09:51 Fare: Heh. Nice pun. 21:10:05 Fare: i'll try get away with the blessing for that particular bug 21:10:33 no bugs should be left unfixed! 21:11:25 -!- brickhazel [~brickhaze@63-144-132-78.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:13:02 and is there a way to instead of invoking a restart to supply for example new values to use handler-case/bi,nd to automatically supply new faly upon errors? 21:13:03 *Fare* commits 2.134, but waits for the tests to finish before to push 21:13:09 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:13:17 -!- bohanlon [~bohanlon@static-64-61-142-155.isp.broadviewnet.net] has quit [Quit: I fear that I am popping off for a bit.] 21:13:34 stassats, wait till I push 2.134 and tell me if it's satisfactory. 21:17:04 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu350.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:17:32 ShereKahn [~ajourez@88.17-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:17:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-107.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:03 nice error message: Broken at ;;; SuAsSpDeFn:d:iPnEgR FpOrRoMces.s 21:19:04 rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:28 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:19:41 francogrex: you can establish a high-level condition handler that invokes a given restart whenever a certain condition is signaled 21:19:51 gonzojive [~red@171.66.73.212] has joined #lisp 21:19:55 Is that not sufficient? 21:20:00 tests pass. 21:20:13 *Fare* pushes asdf 2.134 to git - stassats please test. 21:20:27 gigamonkey: yes it is of course. thanks 21:20:56 *stassats* eagerly presses git pull 21:21:27 "will press button for updated software" 21:22:21 sorry, try again, there was a merge conflict 21:23:19 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:25:55 -!- faux [~user@94.191.151.251.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:03 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-134-89.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:26:22 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:32 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:48 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:27:01 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.194.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:27:51 something's wrong again, doh 21:28:45 davazp [~user@83.54.165.216] has joined #lisp 21:28:49 Have any current CL impls adopted UFFI or CFFI as their "native" FFI? 21:28:57 no 21:29:00 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.55.203] has joined #lisp 21:29:03 And if not, is there any reason that would be just dumb. 21:29:24 Blkt [~user@93-33-134-89.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:29:34 gigamonkey: I've wondered about that too 21:29:41 Fare: ok, now it works from /tmp, but not from ~ 21:30:18 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:29 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:32:06 and for that matter, it fails from ~ with default translations too 21:34:26 I think ecl adopted uffi, i'm not sure though maybe they just use it as a synomym for their own ffi 21:35:04 natively: (in-package :uffi) #<"FFI" package> 21:35:06 logia_th [~nmo@83.35.117.177] has joined #lisp 21:35:29 -!- davazp [~user@83.54.165.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:33 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:35:36 Are there features of any native FFIs notably missing from CFFI? 21:36:23 mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 21:36:30 francogrex: it only means that FFI has a nickname UFFI 21:36:37 http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch18s04.html 21:36:44 which probably means that theire APIs are compatible 21:37:10 stassats, I don't know where the enough-namestring is coming from, and why I don't seem to be experiencing it. 21:37:23 Fare: from within ECL 21:37:28 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:37:41 if you isolate the bug, send a report to ecl 21:38:05 ok, let's call it a day 21:38:09 at this point, I'm too tired to handle it, but will merge any fix. 21:38:59 gigamonkey: not all CLs can adopt CFFI. See ABCL. 21:39:20 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.1.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:20 ABCL could adopt CFFI, via the JNI, no? 21:39:26 there is a CFFI port which uses JNI, but that's not a very good idea 21:39:26 nope 21:39:30 Heh, I was just about to suggest that. 21:39:34 hi fe[nl]ix 21:39:37 the native java libraries are safer, faster and more secure 21:39:42 hi Blkt 21:39:58 no, JNI is not what it's cranked up to be. please feel free to benchmark it yourself. 21:40:21 fusss: sure. But if you have some random C code you want to use, it could be done, no? 21:40:26 fusss: if you're referring to luis's patch, that doesn't use JNI 21:40:44 fusss: the same goes for native lisp code 21:40:59 random C code is fine, but if there is higher quality java code, better use that. though you can always poll the #abcl community. 21:41:51 stassats: native lisp is always preferred to java extensions 21:41:51 fusss: Sure. I'm thinking about what benefits/drawbacks there would be if you could wave a magic wand and say, every impl that has a FFI for C used CFFI. 21:42:41 gigamonkey: there would be huge benefits, and just a a drawback for *one* implementation. I also wish Lisps uses the bordeaux-threads, usocket, and extensible steams APIs 21:42:50 extensible sequences too 21:42:51 that would be neat. 21:43:07 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-vjjoxwnfvjdikuch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:20 abcl's thread package is a replica of bordeaux-threads anyway 21:43:22 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:44 foom: was that just sarcastic ? 21:43:58 -!- drdo [~user@93.108.192.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:05 fe[nl]ix: no. I've been saying that impls should stop having their own custom crap for a long time 21:44:12 ok 21:44:20 the argument for having their own custom crap is that it lets you do stuff that CFFI doesn't. 21:44:28 foom: since you helped porting an application from one lisp to the other? 21:44:50 which is bullshit, because then you're saying to users "use CFFI, it's the nice portable way to do things. But *we* don't want to use it, because it's not good enough." 21:45:01 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:45:08 either make it good enough, or make your things extensions to it, instead of a completely separate layer 21:45:33 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:45:40 Has anyone (presumably the CFFI developers) analyzed how far apart the different native FFIs really are? 21:46:07 gigamonkey: the ABCL community is up for a vote on a JFFI anyway; and they're very open to adopting what other Lisps use. Stop by sometime and offer some weight on aesthetics :-) 21:46:41 Well, CFFI is kinda lame compared to SBCL's alien package. But I'm not sure it actually matters: if you actually use alien in any meaningful way, your code is horribly slow anyways. 21:47:39 I dunno how it compares with other impl's packages. 21:48:26 anyways, it hasn't actually caused me any particular pain. I haven't /really/ ported software from one lisp to another. 21:48:46 it just seems particularly silly. 21:48:52 foom: What sort of "meaningful way", and how "horribly slow"? 21:49:10 foom: doesn't CFFI work by wrapping all the impl's custom crap? 21:49:13 nyef: if you make alien objects that can't be optimized away. 21:49:22 Ah, right. 21:49:28 Does anybody but Pascal Costanza really care about the differences in MOP implementation between CLs? 21:49:43 if you only use alien in a way that all the aliens can be optimized away, it's almost equivalent to cffi anyhow 21:50:25 Right, right. 21:50:38 Ralith: no, it requires a very small number of primitives from the implementation, and then builds an ffi on top of that 21:50:40 gigamonkey: i doubt, since there's closer-mop 21:51:01 jsnell: right, but would those primtives *be* there otherwise? 21:51:19 sorry, I don't understand the question 21:51:35 cffi doesn't "wrap all the impls custom crap" 21:51:45 Right, so is anything lost if every impl made their MOP conform so that closer-mop becomes an empty file? 21:51:46 that would be uffi 21:51:55 jsnell: would the primtives CFFI builds on exist if impls didn't habitually have custom stuff? 21:52:06 primitives 21:52:10 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:52:19 Ralith: the impls could make some primitives and ship CFFI, instead. 21:52:39 brown [~user@nat/google/x-eyddxxpxetdissbq] has joined #lisp 21:52:41 -!- brown is now known as reb 21:52:42 at this point if I were to be making a new CL implementation, that's what I'd do 21:52:55 gigamonkey: at least that's the case with SBCL 21:53:01 gigamonkey: for that most part, the abcl mop package is a replica of closer-mop. indeed, SICL is the future. let a thousand tiny runtimes bloom, with one versioned, user-level Lisp. 21:53:25 Anyways, it's not just CFFI. It's all the other stuff too. 21:53:56 and it's not just SBCL, of course, it's all the lisps. 21:53:59 btw, didn't JNI require extra coding on C side? 21:54:02 sorry mate, i spent 6 hours fighting with cl+ssl; i don't look to kindly at FFI now 21:54:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:54:30 Is that really the goal of SICL; to provide code that could realistically be adopted by any impl? 21:54:45 p_l|uni: might have at some point, but it's not heavily automated to swig-like groveling and reflection 21:54:51 gigamonkey: yes 21:54:57 gigamonkey: I believe so. read the specs. 21:54:58 foom: right, but would CFFI have been able to come into being in the first place? 21:54:59 tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:29 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 21:55:38 Ralith: Ideally, implementators would cooperate on developing a shared API up-front. 21:55:54 foom: frankly, that seems like a lot to expect. 21:55:57 gigamonkey: with the exception of anything that depends on FFI 21:56:01 the thing is also that some implementations have much wider scope of operations available in their FFI. CFFI is there just as common ground 21:56:04 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:56:04 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:56:06 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:28 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-218-131.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 21:56:30 p_l|uni: which is why they should be shipping cffi as their interface, and ship extensions to the CFFI interface instead of a whole separate thing. 21:56:39 p_l|uni: so what are the things that would be lost (from which impls) if everyone tossed their native FFIs in favor of CFFI? 21:56:53 p_l|uni: so that users don't have to rewrite their whole app when they realize they need a non-portable extension 21:57:21 gigamonkey: have you looked into the scope of, for example, ACL's FFI? 21:57:52 A haven't. However I sort of recollect that it's one of the most different. 21:57:53 gigamonkey: how well does CFFI handle callbacks into Lisp? 21:58:09 fusss: no idea; that's why I'm asking. 21:58:11 But anyways, when I brought up this subject at ILC Boston a couple years ago (or one year ago? I forget), the people developing the closed source lisps seemed to be *especially* hostile to doing anything shared. 21:58:13 that might be something to suffer 21:58:37 fusss: i haven't any problems with callbacks 21:58:38 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:58:50 "What, we can't talk to other implementors about APIs! Anti-trust mumble mumble!" 21:58:51 foom: I haven't really encountered any published code that was in condition that required rewriting to CFFI... it's usually stuff that wouldn't port anyway (like ECL's Qt4 support) or stuff where it's not exactly economic for the authors (big application using lots of native components, written with ACL) 21:59:00 not that i was trying to get any 21:59:10 stassats: IME, calling out was universally approachable, but callbacks were tricky, at least on win32 21:59:27 foom: one of their selling points is having a very sophisticated proprietary FFI 21:59:31 foom: yeah. Certainly that seemed like one of the issues that lead to going the ANSI route. 21:59:37 foom: it seems more realistic to hope for for APIs to converge, not start out identical. 21:59:39 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:59:47 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:08 Ralith: Indeed, and since everyone already has an impl of threads, sockets, C FFI, that's what I'd propose they do now. 22:00:25 for a Lisp that has 3 different FFI APIs, take a look at ABCL :-) 22:00:28 Seems like if the open source impls smoothed out some of the differences that might be enough to force the commercial ones to at least support those APIs. 22:01:07 right. The OSS lisps could replace *their* apis with the best-of-breed wrapper-library APIs. 22:01:08 foom: perhaps it'd be easier once they have something closer to feature parity? 22:01:41 foom: the big API difference between implementations will be plugged (I hope) by the project I want to show off at ECLS 22:01:46 and if you want to run something on ACL, you can just download a wrapper libraries like you do today. 22:02:25 the rest is less of API problem, more of "the insides are completely different" thing 22:02:57 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 22:03:15 p_l|uni: what project ? 22:03:51 fe[nl]ix: C++ interop for lisp, based on CFFI 22:04:06 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:04:25 interesting 22:04:28 or rather, it would be a CFFI extension that might use implementation-specific stuff to speed operations when possible 22:04:38 (like custom VOPs on SBCL) 22:04:52 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:05:45 next April ? 22:06:02 I hope to have something to show by that time 22:06:37 I did a lot of theory so far, need some extra details on win32/win64 and start cracking at the necessary assembly 22:07:35 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08:42 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:26 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-156-118.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:13:12 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 22:17:55 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 22:18:12 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:18:33 benny [~benny@i577A3110.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:20:03 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:12 good night everyone 22:21:34 fe[nl]ix: the target is to have full support for classes and exceptions 22:23:51 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-134-89.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please] 22:24:04 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:38 -!- ShereKahn [~ajourez@88.17-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:24:47 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:30:59 mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 22:31:34 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:33:18 I wonder how many times I can use Ron Garret quotes as examples of completely wrong and misguided thinking before it turns into a personal attack. 22:33:38 n times 22:38:39 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:38:56 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:31 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:13 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:45:18 -!- phrixos is now known as vp8dmh 22:46:38 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-eyddxxpxetdissbq] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:47:40 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:51:53 brown [~user@nat/google/x-ashpkwhaqcigyblq] has joined #lisp 22:52:00 -!- brown is now known as reb 22:52:31 kingless [~kingless@adsl-242-215-95.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:17 -!- kingless [~kingless@adsl-242-215-95.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:53 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:54:53 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:00:15 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:48 -!- jeti [~jeti@p54B47E9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:03:12 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:10:26 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 23:11:08 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:11:17 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:38 drewc: btw, I always wondered, is anything you wrote in Lisp (as in, delivered) something that might be seen from internet (even if not actually used without paying or whatever)? 23:15:07 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:16:47 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9ECC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:17:40 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:26:38 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.73.212] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 23:31:35 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:12 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:36:27 gonzojive [~red@171.66.80.48] has joined #lisp 23:37:13 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:41:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:44:05 whos ron garret 23:45:18 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 23:46:37 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:37 -!- wareya [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:24 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:47:46 wareya [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:23 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 23:54:03 http://www.google.com/search?q=%22ron+garret%22 23:54:26 is there a way to see all functions in a given package? 23:54:39 something like python's dir() 23:57:51 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-1-181.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:58:08 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:58:18 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-141.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:59:17 p_l|uni: not right now, but the project i'm working on now will be publically available 23:59:24 cool 23:59:49 most of my work is internal db type applications. 23:59:59 drewc: Yeah, I figured :)