00:03:49 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7545d3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:44 -!- maturin [~user@cpe-98-149-134-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:06:28 vs: (subseq list 0 n) gives the first nth elements. 00:07:03 vs: (subseq list 1 (1+ n)) if you want elements 1 thru n. 00:11:10 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:13:08 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-153-145.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:13:18 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-153-145.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:14:33 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-65-141.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:16:18 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 00:22:40 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:27 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.79.57] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:27:55 -!- konr` [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:28:28 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:08 gadek [~gadek@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 00:29:28 timor [~timor@port-92-195-246-177.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:30:57 -!- tim is now known as timack 00:39:16 hi :) question: how is tail-recursion handled in means of performance? Example. Although CLISP favorites iterative one (http://ideone.com/qswJA - no tail recursion?...), SBCL does the reverse with the triangular procedure given (http://paste.lisp.org/display/115177 - recursion is 36% faster). I'd like to know whether to optimize code writing tail-recursive or is it just bunch of luck here... Any ideas or places to search for this information? 00:39:32 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 00:39:39 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 00:40:01 gadek: when it's important, pick your CL implementation and profile the code for it. 00:40:09 gadek: and make sure to compile. 00:40:14 Heh. 00:40:20 micro-optimisations are rarely portable. 00:40:35 And portable optimizations are rarely micro. 00:40:36 (compile and optimize for speed) 00:41:13 pkhuong: luckily, SBCL does compilation for me :) 00:41:23 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@65.242.219.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:41:24 CLISP might not. 00:41:56 clisp does tco when you compile it, at least for recursive calls. 00:42:37 pkhuong: yep, CLISP seems not. Oh well... 00:42:49 clisp does tco when you compile it, at least for recursive calls. 00:43:07 Why do you people keep lying? 00:43:14 generally, is it just luck due to /this/ implemenation or CL generally handles recursions better? 00:43:23 pjb: what? 00:43:24 pjb: I just wrote to make sure to compile. 00:44:55 gadek: CL doesn't requires TCO, so if you want to avoid using stack, use a loop instead of recursion. 00:45:58 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-246-177.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:46:36 pjb: well, I'm stick with SBCL which - from empirical experiment for example - does that :) 00:46:44 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:46:46 even does that very well 00:46:58 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-153-145.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:47:06 too well for me which made me curious about why do looping is slower in this case 00:50:58 <_3b> seems faster here 00:51:53 tiny differences in register allocation. SBCL allocates variables; using a call with explicit arguments instead of a jump is a bit like a phi function in SSA reg alloc, which can result in smaller/faster code. 00:55:02 pkhuong: the difference of 50% of magnitude (it:15.7sec vs rec:10.7sec for 500000x(triangle 100000)) is because of those *tiny* differences? o.O" geez... 00:55:50 maybe some sources (sites/books?) from which one could learn those "tiny" differences? :P 00:56:26 I'd use a quantile of cycle counts as returned from sb-vm::with-cycle-counter to make sure you're not measuring noise. 00:57:16 Heh. "Central Limit Theorem"? 00:57:17 that, or compute the average and standard deviations, get a histogram to make sure the distributions are normal-ish looking, and run a t-test. 00:57:37 21,463,547,024 vs 31,387,550,626 00:57:47 by (timer) 00:58:07 @pkhuong: gimme second, trying sb-vm::w-c-c 00:58:59 oh, didn't mention - ran tests with timer 6 times in a row for each func 00:59:26 gadek: the common theme in my suggestions is to take multiple measurements (one per repetition, for instance), and then compare them either with a robust statistic (quantiles), or use a statistical test that will let you exploit the large number of repetitions you're executing. 01:00:19 timor [~timor@port-92-195-59-232.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:00:26 *_3b* 's suggestion is to optimize real workloads, not microbenchmarks 01:00:36 but yeah, your loop is basically doing nothing, so anything even very minor differences, can have a large impact. 01:02:00 _3b: we (coders) tend to suck at using statistics correctly to make decisions, so I believe trying to get the methodology right even on pointless questions is still worthwhile. 01:04:00 pkhuong: I used this: (loop for i from 0 to 5 do (time (do ((cnt 100000 (1- cnt))) ((zerop cnt)) (triangle% 100000) (triangle%% 100000)))) and that sb-vm::w-c-c gave for ex. 20760 vs 32270 in favor of rec. 01:05:35 oh well... nvm this one, too much attention I think. Any sources for fine-tuning code? 01:06:26 and that's nigh-useless: is it that every one in a while some execution is very slow, or is the difference consistent, or, even stranger, does one function exhibit a strong bimodal distribution in runtimes? You can't tell because you aggregated the values in one of the least useful manners (summing them). 01:06:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-25-199.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:07:50 Interesting as a crash course in statistics may be, I'm going to have to bow out. 01:07:53 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-56-192.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:07:58 the best way to microoptimize code on SBCL is to compile it (with speed optimization), read the notes, see which ones you can affect (e.g. with type declarations). 01:08:39 then compare your options, read disassemblies and ask around, repeat. 01:10:00 pkhuong: well... shame on me, I asked for some simple method for not-so-simple optimization techniques... thanks anyway for hints :) 01:11:44 -!- gadek [~gadek@62.121.148.46] has quit [Quit: time for sleep! c'ya] 01:14:43 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 01:17:02 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-59-232.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:22:46 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:36 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:02 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:31:10 timor [~timor@port-92-195-186-180.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:35:22 wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 01:37:12 Excitement won't stop for ILC 2010! 01:42:07 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 01:43:21 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:43:37 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:45:36 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-0-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:46:45 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-102-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:47:13 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-2-127.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:48:12 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-186-180.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:51:18 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:52:43 Demosthenes [~demo@65.242.219.13] has joined #lisp 01:57:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:03:18 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-102-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:04:00 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:23 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 02:10:19 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:17:05 timor [~timor@port-92-195-35-120.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 02:27:35 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:11 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-135-129.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 02:34:05 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-35-120.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:34:28 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:38:07 Anyone do read-char and read-byte on the same stream and expect it to work? Or do you expect errors if the stream is not of the appropriate type? 02:39:35 rtoym: a bivalent stream would make that work. 02:40:42 *_3b* has used those, expecting both to work, and would also expect errors if the stream wasn't the appropriate type 02:41:16 Yes, I know. I'm just curious if does that on streams other than bivalent ones. (CMUCL 20a and 20b inadvertently allowed read-char and read-byte on all streams.) 02:41:24 rtoym: bivalent streams are not standard. In portable code I'd expect an error on one or the other. 02:45:38 _3b: You expect read-char and read-byte to work on the same stream? 02:45:45 -!- ost````` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:45:59 <_3b> rtoym: if it is a bivalent stream, yes 02:46:06 ost````` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:46:08 <_3b> rtoym: if not, i would be surprised 02:46:40 Ok. That makes sense. I will have to fix that bug. 02:46:57 timor [~timor@port-92-195-61-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 02:47:18 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 02:47:22 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-217-99.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 02:47:46 <_3b> well, you could just document it as 'all streams are bivalent' :) 02:48:42 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-135-129.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:48:43 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-233-194-28.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 02:48:48 Heh. 02:49:15 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:49:20 <_3b> though i guess that probably can't be done and still fit the spec 02:49:35 Unfortunately, there's a bug there in that read-byte will read an octet, but read-char will read the octet again. More or less. 02:51:35 Or maybe I can say screw it. 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[~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:11:52 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 05:11:53 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-72.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 05:16:19 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-130-227.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:59 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18:30 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-157-221.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:20:33 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:20:34 timor [~timor@port-92-195-12-191.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 05:20:35 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-130-227.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:21:20 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 05:22:27 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-252-249.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:24:19 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 05:24:24 fusss_ [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:49 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:27:06 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 05:27:39 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:27:51 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 05:28:11 Good morning everyone! 05:28:15 slyrus_: Now I am! 05:28:28 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 05:28:37 hey beach, I was wondering if you looked at using replace instead of loop for insert-vector* 05:28:53 i got (at least) part of it working, but I couldn't figure out how to exercise the other code path 05:29:05 I haven't looked into that. 05:29:15 (the one where gap-start wraps around to 0) 05:29:28 That should not be that hard. 05:31:09 -!- ppasteau [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255560.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:31:25 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255560.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:32:42 beach: http://gist.github.com/609277 05:35:37 Certainly, the `else' part looks right. 05:35:52 So does the first replace of the `then' part. 05:35:56 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-121-194.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 05:36:42 I was hoping I could use the flexichain test suite to test this, but that didn't work out so well :( 05:37:16 Why? 05:38:20 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-12-191.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:39:17 first the flexichain-test.asd dependencies were messed up 05:39:24 second, ABCL doesn; 05:39:37 't seem to like mcclim (not flexichain's fault, obviously) 05:39:47 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:40:23 I would have written :start2 as (- (length vector) (- (length buffer) gap-start)), but it's the same thing (I think; I am not quite awake yet). 05:40:43 slyrus_: You can run the test suite without the .asd file. 05:41:21 well, that part was easy enough to fix 05:41:44 compile and load `stupid', then rtester.lisp 05:41:44 the third problem was that run-tester gives an error about NIL not being of type CHARACTER 05:42:09 isn't that what we use asdf for? :) 05:42:17 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:42:33 slyrus_: Indeed. I don't know why I did it that way. 05:43:22 I'm not sure why flexichain needs a clim-based tester. a clim-tester would be nice if there were a need, but a simple API-based test suite that doesn't require CLIM would be the place to start, if you ask me 05:43:36 Of course, the test code doesn't use insert-vector* anyway. 05:43:44 ah, well, never mind then :) 05:44:03 fourth problem: the test code doesn't use insert-vector* 05:44:15 Right, I wrote the CLIM-based tester first, and the automatic tester only later. 05:44:38 ins't the clim-based tester called climacs? :) 05:45:35 I suppose so, yes. I should remove that tester in Flexichain. 05:45:45 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 05:49:19 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-165-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:49:23 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-165-178.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:49:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:51:07 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:51:43 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 05:52:41 timor [~timor@port-92-195-95-92.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 05:53:06 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-121-194.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:55:17 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:59 kdas_ [~kdas@209.132.181.86] has joined #lisp 05:59:18 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:59:22 -!- kdas_ is now known as kushal 06:01:04 slyrus_: Do you have reasons to believe that your version with replace is not working right? 06:01:45 -!- kushal [~kdas@209.132.181.86] has quit [Changing host] 06:01:45 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:05:27 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:05:27 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:05:27 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:08:38 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-95-92.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:08:56 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:10:26 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 06:12:26 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:12:30 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:17:13 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 06:21:22 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:23:17 timor [~timor@port-92-195-88-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:31:27 hmmm... regarding SBCL survey, If I dabbled with programming since 1997 but can't really say I programmed much should I put >10 years? ;D 06:32:40 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 06:33:10 Or said otherwise, what do they want to learn from these questions? 06:33:21 yep 06:33:45 *p_l|uni* puts 5-10, sounds like more useful piece of data 06:34:17 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:37:58 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:21 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-54-137.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:39:55 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-88-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:40:08 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-72.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:40:50 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-72.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 06:40:51 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47:30 What could be the cause of (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :system) not compiling the system. 06:47:36 s/./?/ 06:47:49 beach: error in timestamps? 06:48:12 if it can't decide that there are new changes to compile, it won't try. 06:48:30 I removed the .fasl files. 06:48:33 add :force t 06:48:48 (asdf:load-system :system :force t) 06:48:57 OK, trying that. 06:49:27 Worked! Thanks! 06:49:31 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:49:40 np 06:49:44 So did it just load the .lisp files instead? 06:49:52 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 06:50:02 beach: probably, but :force t is there to force recompilation 06:50:33 krappie_ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 06:50:46 OK. I am still surprised that removing the .fasl files did't force the compilation, though. 06:50:59 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 06:52:26 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:44 -!- ASau`` is now known as ASau 06:55:17 timor [~timor@port-92-195-11-205.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:56:22 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-54-137.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:56:33 ... people actually use newLISP !? 06:57:02 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:57:24 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:57:37 p_l|uni: there're people actually using jonesforth 06:57:59 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 06:58:05 p_l|uni: no wonder someone actually use newLISP. 06:58:26 ASau: Jones FORTH looks much much more sensible to use :> 06:58:57 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:58:59 p_l|uni: not at all. 06:59:20 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:59:26 *p_l|uni* actually noticed a use case just after opening the page 07:00:27 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 07:01:05 namely the fact that it assumes very little of the available OS makes it an interesting starting point for a firmware-sized implementation 07:02:34 There're other more powerful and more useful implementations 07:02:34 that don't have any of major drawbacks of jonesforth. 07:03:20 E.g. non-traditional and non-standard semantics of same words. 07:04:18 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:07:04 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 07:07:32 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:09:11 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:09:43 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-72.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:09:47 azathoth99 [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:08 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-193-201.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:12:36 veeger [~jarrod@1055hostc2.starwoodbroadband.com] has joined #lisp 07:12:38 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-11-205.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:12:38 hi 07:12:53 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-72.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 07:12:54 I want to learn lisp. What is a good way for a newbie to learn lisp? 07:13:18 I looked at practical common lisp but there are no practice problems. I would like to write lisp code and learn at the same time. 07:13:34 veeger: do you have previous programming experience? 07:13:45 a little bit. 07:13:58 cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has joined #lisp 07:14:06 PCL is IMHO written more for someone who already programmed quite a bit, so its "practical" parts can be rather weird for people completely new 07:14:18 damn, where's minion when you need it 07:14:19 oh okay 07:14:30 veeger: wait a while, let me dig the link... 07:14:31 should I learn something else? 07:14:36 oh okay 07:14:41 I can use google too. 07:14:49 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ <--- have this 07:15:17 it's good as general introduction to the more abstract kind of programming, and is quite decent "first book" IMHO 07:15:27 okay 07:15:27 "Ansi Common Lisp" was nice, too 07:15:51 okay 07:15:53 you can use bits from PCL to help yourself in setting up the environment, Gentle Introduction was written as an academic textbook and assumes everything is set up 07:15:57 I am going to program in lisp. 07:16:04 *ehu* has "Ansi Common Lisp" 07:16:14 (plus it's quite old and thus doesn't know about SLIME) 07:16:38 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7569fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:29 Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-197-125.uio.no] has joined #lisp 07:17:36 I know that there are a lot of different lisps. Can I just use sbcl? 07:18:08 well, I'm using SBCL ... along with many others. 07:18:34 okay I will use this 07:18:41 So, yes ;-) 07:18:53 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-216-215.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:13 veeger: what other programming experience do you have? 07:19:23 a little bit of python. 07:19:24 veeger: what's your OS? 07:19:25 c 07:19:26 veeger: are you on Linux? Go with SBCL. On Windows, I'd still go with CCL despite advances of SBCL/win32 07:19:29 ruby 07:19:37 I dont focus very well 07:19:46 I want to focus on lisp and program in lisp 07:19:52 I am on linux 07:20:15 I have never programmed anything that uses threads. 07:20:29 veeger: do you have experience with those tools (ruby, python) in interactive mode? 07:20:45 yes, a lot for testing things. 07:20:46 ie where you enter stuff directly at the prompt? 07:20:48 ok. 07:20:56 then I guess sbcl would be good. 07:20:58 and documentation in python 07:21:00 okay 07:21:15 I only know math up to about basic calculus 07:21:19 can I still use lisp 07:21:33 yes. 07:21:36 okay. 07:21:38 thanks. 07:21:47 I appreciate your feedback. 07:21:56 welcome. 07:22:13 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Ping timeout: 630 seconds] 07:22:39 veeger: most important thing about learning lisp, for me, was to find a good coach / tutor. Someone who provides you with feedback when you solved your problems. 07:22:40 hmmmm, I'm having a weird problem, and I have no idea what's wrong 07:23:09 brb, switching buildings 07:23:14 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Switching buildings] 07:23:21 Is it okay if I just come here? I do not have many friends. Not because I am weird or anything. I just dont. 07:23:47 Those statements were meant in response to ehu 07:23:54 veeger: sure. 07:24:05 okay 07:24:10 Thanks. 07:24:34 veeger, I don't think you need permission to join IRC channels :) 07:25:23 wvdschel: what's the issue? 07:25:36 I'm trying to use a package, which I clearly define, yet it fails to find it 07:25:39 wvdschel: right, my language was ambiguous. I meant "Can I come here for feedback on my code." 07:26:36 veeger: that's alright, I didn't mean to attack you, and welcome :) 07:26:42 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:26:48 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-193-201.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:26:56 wvdschel: which implementation do you use? Do you define the package in the same file as you use it in? 07:26:56 ehu, it keeps giving me 'The name "UNIVERSE" does not designate any package.' 07:27:00 SBCL 07:27:23 no, but I'll give you an extract from the code, i (load) the file 07:27:28 wvdschel: maybe you need to paste some code so we can look at it with you. 07:27:29 http://pastie.org/1197947 07:27:45 timor [~timor@port-92-195-90-169.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:28:02 missed some parens in the code? 07:28:12 seems like it didn't copy the first paren 07:28:17 but it's in the file 07:28:25 in the paste, i meant 07:28:28 universe.lisp compiles just fine, and works 07:28:31 :) 07:29:32 people usually use keyword symbols or strings to designate packages. I'd say this ought to work too though. 07:29:34 well, you could try writing :universe 07:29:49 (DEFPACKAGE :UNIVERSE ...) 07:30:06 (defpackage :my-bot ... (:use ... :universe)) 07:30:34 others use uninterned symbols in order to prevent cluttering the keyword package: #:universe 07:30:56 You can use strings, but be careful of case mangling. 07:32:07 ah, there is a keyword package universe? 07:33:10 ok it gets past it when I add ':' in front of the package names 07:33:11 thanks 07:33:12 sorry? all keywords are interned in the "KEYWORD" package 07:33:36 keywords are specified by having a leading ':' on the symbol. 07:34:03 ah ok, misunderstood 07:34:24 xan_ [~xan@p1021-ipad71osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:34:29 it's been quite a while since I've used lisp, and I don't even understand all my own code at this point :) 07:34:43 it's slowly coming back though 07:35:29 wvdschel: planet wars? 07:35:51 thanks for the recommendations. I have slime and emacs set up and I have that book. 07:36:28 aerique, you guessed it :) 07:36:32 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:39 it's been since the tronbot challenge since I last used lisp 07:39:51 welcome back 07:41:00 thanks 07:42:02 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:42:10 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-2-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:42:29 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:42:36 -!- prip [~foo@host36-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:43:18 prip [~foo@host36-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:43:50 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-90-169.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:44:14 how can I query lisp lists from a lisp on box1 toa lisp on box2? 07:44:20 timchen1` [tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 07:44:24 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 07:44:37 without disk activity? 07:44:50 azathoth99: oh, you're back? 07:45:01 I never left. 07:45:02 azathoth99: you use sockets for that, no? 07:45:13 oow I never used sockets.. 07:45:21 are they hard to use? 07:45:48 no 07:45:58 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:46:07 you just have to do some reading before doing so 07:46:42 azathoth99: how's your webserver doing? 07:47:05 my webserver? 07:47:37 ye, the one in bash? 07:48:33 incidentally i was just wondering which unix admin does not know about sockets... 07:49:11 apparently we have one here 07:49:27 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:49:42 oh really 07:49:52 you know a lot of unix admins writing socket code ? 07:50:01 most I know simply use rsync 07:50:11 over ssh 07:50:14 azathoth99: no, but knowledge of BSD sockets is indispensible when fixing mess left by some apps 07:50:24 I bet 07:51:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:51:22 I think be able to query data held in ram on remote boxes would allow for sme great apps. 07:51:27 azathoth99: have you ever used commands like "netstat" or "netcat"? 07:51:32 yes 07:51:51 splittist [~John@166-141.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:51:53 morning 07:53:30 azathoth99: so it's good, you know how the sockets work from the outside, now all you have to do is read some documentation to do it from the inside. 07:55:56 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-64-102.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:12 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 07:58:42 hmm 07:59:31 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-2-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:04:26 kmc [~keegan@c-98-216-243-239.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:36 -!- Guest27450 is now known as seejay 08:06:38 -!- seejay [~seejay@plexyplanet.org] has quit [Changing host] 08:06:38 seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 08:09:06 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:10:11 cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has joined #lisp 08:10:59 I am a lil intimidaed by lisp. 08:11:10 Guna starting workin my way through few books 08:11:19 it makes sense to me more than python 08:11:31 and bash is simpler for moving files but very kinda diiosyncratic 08:14:02 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:14:09 good morning 08:14:13 timor [~timor@port-92-195-92-130.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:14:19 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-197-125.uio.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 08:14:38 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:48 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:16:53 konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has joined #lisp 08:19:00 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:57 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:22:25 kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 08:22:28 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:23:04 -!- Pavitra [~pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:24:36 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Client Quit] 08:28:03 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-73-213.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:23 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:38 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-72.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:29:51 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:29:55 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-92-130.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:34:06 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:34:50 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-20-82-64-50-165.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:36:26 good morning 08:41:24 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:45:07 hello nikodemus 08:45:18 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-73-213.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:45:22 .. and mvilleneuve, splittist. 08:47:13 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 08:47:17 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:47:27 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.60.245.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:47:43 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-21-82-64-88-223.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:05 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 08:51:05 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:52:17 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 08:59:52 timor [~timor@port-92-195-103-29.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:02:42 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:07:47 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-141.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:08:38 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-28-157.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:08:55 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-141.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 09:09:05 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-141.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:09:25 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-72.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 09:14:57 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-46-215.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:15:05 beach: I'm trying to find the part in the spec which tells me about coercing bigints to floats, especially if the number doesn't fit in the float type specified. Any idea where to look? 09:15:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-25-199.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:15:52 would that be section 12.1.4.3 (Rule of float under/overflow) 09:15:54 ? 09:16:48 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-103-29.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:19:05 *ehu* wonders what makes "a floating point operation" 09:20:48 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 09:21:49 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:24:13 TomJ- [~tomj@89.241.144.236] has joined #lisp 09:24:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 09:24:32 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:24:35 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.241.155.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:25:50 ehu: By "not fit", do you mean that the magnitude is too great, or do you mean that the precision is too great? 09:27:05 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:27:39 the magnitude is too great 09:27:52 ehu: if a coersion is not possible, an error of type type-error is signaled. 09:27:58 clhs coerce 09:28:08 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 09:28:11 ah. thanks. 09:28:19 http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=fannkuchredux&lang=all <-- they're obviously meaningless...unless we win! 09:28:27 I guess that should be it indeed. 09:29:59 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:30:18 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 09:30:58 timor [~timor@port-92-195-76-198.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:31:13 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 09:32:13 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-46-215.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:32:24 found it. Thanks! 09:32:36 (currently the answer is infinity, which is clearly incorrect) 09:33:05 Xach: it uses evil! 09:33:50 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:34:07 *stassats* looks into the sources 09:34:26 jdz: and too much macros 09:34:48 i wonder if it's really necessary 09:34:59 but not enough to reimplement the benchmark... 09:35:17 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-153-145.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:35:39 i want a benchmark were idiomatic code is contested 09:36:18 otherwise i can beat everything by using VOPs in SBCL 09:36:19 stassats: you'll have to write those yourself then, i guess 09:37:13 stassats: you were about to contribute an assembly program? 09:37:37 no, i only imagined that 09:39:58 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:40:47 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:41:05 hmm. abcl coerces 1.0d128 (double float) into infinity single-float. 09:41:09 that seems wrong too. 09:41:45 there should be a contrib, sb-shootout, that contains all necessary VOPs and transforms 09:42:01 Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-197-125.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:42:57 There's a small typo in SBCL 1.0.42, COPYING file. "was was" should be "was". 09:45:06 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: AFK - need to pick up attendance sheets and go to lecture (where I'll stealthily prepare rework my PIM and prepare for firsties, yay!)] 09:46:16 good catch 09:46:28 do you want your real name in the commit log? :) 09:46:57 ok. 09:47:57 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-12-181.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:49:04 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-76-198.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:51:08 Hexstream: if you do, you need to tell me it -- /whois is uninformative for you 09:51:24 Ohh. Jean-Philippe Paradis 09:51:27 thanks 09:52:28 My github account is third result on google for "Hexstream" and that has my real name. 09:53:21 -!- xan_ [~xan@p1021-ipad71osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:54:55 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:00:19 nikodemus: I can't enter both X86 and X86-64 in the survey, and once an OS has been selected, it can't be erased in Firefox. 10:01:30 as stated: select the OS that you use the most then 10:01:37 or architecture, whatever 10:03:58 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-12-181.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:04:08 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 10:04:39 -!- azathoth99 [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:04:48 beach: i know -- it's a misfeature in the survey backend, and i didn't want to waste space by open-coding all the different combinations into a checklist 10:05:33 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@1x-193-157-197-125.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:09:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:49 stassats: could try to get rid of the compilation note in define-alien-routine execv in swank-sbcl.lisp? 10:16:11 Pepe__ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:02 timor [~timor@port-92-195-121-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:17 in the beginning of swank-sbcl.lisp debug is set to 2, that's what causes that note to appear 10:19:55 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu252.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:20:14 oh, that's interesting 10:21:32 looks like some transform is not applied in that case 10:21:42 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:21:53 (when (policy node (<= speed debug)) (setf body `(invoke-with-saved-fp-and-pc (lambda () ,body)))) 10:22:01 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 10:22:26 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Client Quit] 10:23:07 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:24:13 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/654485 10:24:16 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 10:24:33 i can macroexpand sb-alien:define-alien-routine and declare debug 1 inside 10:25:19 nikodemus: or the fix will be available soon? 10:26:12 i'd put a LOCALLY (declare (optimize (debug 1))) around it for now 10:26:26 i'll look at it, but i'm not sure how long it will take 10:26:43 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:26:52 it's not a show-stopper, so slime can wait 10:27:44 now to get rid of that pprint-logical-block note 10:30:01 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu252.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:30:50 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu252.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:33:21 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-0-65.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:34:11 that's hardly to overcome it's where sbcl's dead code heuristic fails 10:34:22 well, it doesn't fail 10:34:23 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D2E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:28 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-121-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:34:40 uhm it does, annoyingly so 10:35:14 well, it works, but it should works silently for internal code 10:35:29 Maybe we're not talking of the same thing 10:35:50 in this case it eliminates one of the legs of CASE known at compile-time 10:36:37 I'm talking of the dead code notification 10:36:44 that's where a heuristics is applied 10:37:09 it's very hard to distinguish between what's internal and what's user code 10:37:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115187 what exactly I am doing wrong with let here ? 10:37:16 In Common Lisp 10:37:50 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:37:58 kushal: you use the wrong syntax for LET 10:38:03 clhs let 10:38:06 oh well 10:38:39 stassats, google with same worked, now reading the page :) 10:38:48 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:06 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 10:40:43 stassats, understood 10:45:34 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 10:47:49 timor [~timor@port-92-195-128-54.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:49:54 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-0-65.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:52:36 tcr: the discussion about SHIFTF helped me to write quite concise fibonacci function using shiftf 10:53:33 (defun fib (n) (let ((current 1)(previous 0)) (dotimes (i n) (shiftf previous current (+ previous current))) previous)) 10:56:37 Blkt [~user@93-33-140-115.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:58:26 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 11:02:41 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:44 stassats: ok, i have a fix. going in today -- let-conversion of the open-coded ALIEN-FUNCALL body was being inhibited by debug > speed 11:07:14 xan_ [~xan@i220-109-188-60.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:11:30 Krystof [~csr21@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:12:07 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:14:39 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7569fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21:14 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:21:33 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:23:41 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 11:27:02 stassats: fixed in HEAD 11:27:14 ok, thanks 11:28:08 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:28:19 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.181.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:30:01 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.166.152] has joined #lisp 11:32:23 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:52 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.166.152] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:32 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:33:58 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:37:06 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.47.56] has joined #lisp 11:37:46 gadek [~gadek@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 11:39:00 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-56-192.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-25-199.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:43:18 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.47.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:43:40 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.47.56] has joined #lisp 11:44:09 xan__ [~xan@i125-201-136-161.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:44:17 the log appears to be lost here too 11:44:49 does clog form it here? 11:47:05 -!- xan_ [~xan@i220-109-188-60.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:47:48 Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has joined #lisp 11:51:07 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:52:03 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:52:58 -!- Krystof [~csr21@nat67.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:53:49 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:54:07 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:11 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:20 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:03:33 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:38 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@65.242.219.13] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:05:42 Athas 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[~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:49 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7569fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:59 -1,894,965,048 bytes of memory allocated. 12:24:01 that is nice 12:24:16 that is efficiency at its best 12:24:26 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 12:24:35 run the program twice for even more free memory! 12:24:45 haha 12:24:46 Sell the surplus. 12:25:07 that sounds like a good business... 12:25:35 schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:25:43 beach: so I'm just about finished with the calendar project 12:25:56 that was on ccl, let me try to overflow SBCL 12:26:01 OliverUv: where do we see screenshots and the source? 12:26:05 but I rely on Allegro CL CLIMs pane switching 12:26:18 source is available at http://github.org/OliverUv/Almavis 12:26:38 i haven't taken screenshots of the finished product yet, but there are some old ones at http://ida.uvman.se 12:27:20 oh, the source is in scandinavian? 12:27:37 SCL 12:27:51 Svenska Common Lisp 12:28:11 the answer to Hungarian Common Lisp 12:28:25 well, my first guess would be Swedish, but that's just a very wild guess 12:28:40 might as well be Norwegian or Danish 12:28:57 does not look like Finnish, though 12:29:10 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 12:29:11 beware the very wild m00se 12:29:18 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-glhujvefinpokvmg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:29:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@62.201.126.9] has joined #lisp 12:29:27 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 12:29:55 anyway i should try to get into the clim programming (again) 12:29:56 well, OliverUv being from Sweden it's easy to guess 12:30:03 maybe should code up another small game or something 12:30:16 stassats: i did not cheat :) 12:30:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dchxxkmxitjtdbxu] has joined #lisp 12:30:48 well, what could I do if I remembered that? 12:31:23 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31:36 stassats: try to come up with a way to make profit off it :) 12:31:43 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31:58 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:59 i'm still harvesting memory from SBCL 12:32:17 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 12:32:27 stassats: that would be two unbelievably good ways of making profit today 12:32:57 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:57 sbcl is not afraid of huge consing 12:34:04 64,801,031,208 bytes consed 12:34:11 sell them! 12:34:50 well, it's positive bytes 12:34:50 you sure don't need that much, do you? 12:36:18 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:42:42 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 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[~GilbertEr@user-0ccsi5d.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:51 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:53 Xach: do you have any feel for how difficult it would be to create a PKWare deflated ZIP file, given Salza2's deflating capabilities? 14:25:24 splittist: lichtblau's zip library already does that. 14:25:27 -!- GilbertErik [~GilbertEr@user-0ccsi5d.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:25:40 so: not hard 14:25:49 it is based on salza1, i believe 14:27:02 Xach: ha! Thanks! 14:27:25 be warned that it does not build with asdf2 14:28:32 salza2 by the looks of the asd 14:28:46 lichtblau: I can't reproduce whatever problem I thought I had with closure-html and allegro. Maybe my state was too dirty. 14:29:27 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:27 ppasteau [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255560.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:44:27 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255560.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:47:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 14:47:27 lacedaemon [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 14:47:31 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 14:49:05 freik [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:52:13 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@maske.rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:41 kclifton_ [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:28 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has left #lisp 14:57:32 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 14:58:48 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:59:23 ok, beginner problem: I've defined a function that reads some input, and it works fine on its own 15:00:09 but once I put things into packages, symbols it reads from the input won't (eq) to the ones I compare them with 15:00:24 I could not use symbols, and I probably should (right?) 15:00:55 then you're comparing different symbols 15:00:56 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:00:56 -!- kclifton_ is now known as kclifton 15:01:05 stassats, i kno 15:01:08 know 15:01:19 At which point, you might consider if binding *PACKAGE* could help. 15:01:31 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:01:38 -!- logia_th [~nmo@83.35.117.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:44 nyef, what is *PACKAGE* for? 15:01:51 clhs *package* 15:02:15 ... Damnit, specbot! 15:02:33 minion: Are you here, at least? 15:02:57 stassats, i know what's going wrong, I just don't know how to fix it 15:03:11 don't use symbols when you need strings? 15:03:28 ^^^ what he said 15:03:55 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:21 also, in general it is a bad idea to read arbitrary user input using READ 15:04:25 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:30 -!- TomJ- [~tomj@89.241.144.236] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:04:33 clhs *package* 15:04:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pkg.htm 15:04:57 cmm, that's what I found for converting strings to floating point numbers using google 15:05:33 wvdschel: . 15:05:46 pkhuong, no libraries 15:06:02 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-56.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:07:35 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:51 is there a way to do it without libraries? 15:09:02 Don't like dependencies? 15:09:08 it's supposed to execute on some server which I can't install anything on 15:09:17 I just send in the code, and they execute it 15:09:20 programming contest 15:09:35 wvdschel: i'm using parse-number in my starter package, check it out 15:09:37 also, don't like asdf 15:09:49 Oh, you're not alone in disliking ASDF. 15:09:57 ah, link aerique? 15:10:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:10:05 you can always cram the parse-number code into whatever you are submitting, I guess 15:10:45 wvdschel: http://ai-contest.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=421&start=80#p4494 15:10:58 parse-number lacks :junk-allowed and is not fully standard compliant I was majorly disappointed when I looked at the source :-) 15:11:07 wvdschel: there's other people packages as well and there's a minor bug in mine, read the thread :) 15:11:08 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:11:59 I only really need the parse-number part, I don't like starter packages 15:12:09 I enjoy writing my own :) 15:12:48 wvdschel: you can just see how i use parse-number and ignore the rest 15:14:15 wvdschel: you can also write your own basic parse-float function just for this program :) 15:14:31 aerique, i could indeed 15:14:34 maybe I will! 15:14:43 *wvdschel* starts writing his own 15:14:59 did you write your own Lisp already? 15:15:02 reinventing the wheel is sort of a hobby of mine 15:15:16 wvdschel: waste of time to be honest but good practice for getting back into CL perhaps 15:15:16 stassats, of course, didn't everyone? 15:15:24 i didn't 15:15:47 stassats, I was joking, and aerique, yes, probably, but I'm in it for the practice 15:17:37 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:46 when I create a hashtable with lots of data from a db , I can see sbcl memory usage is around 300MB , when I setf the variable again with same set of data again (calling the same function to get the data) , isn't gc should take care of the memory allocated to the old data ? 15:19:03 in my case memory usage is just becoming double 15:20:27 am I still connected ? 15:20:33 you are 15:20:45 oh ok 15:21:04 kushal: setf'ing happens after the expression is evaluated. Therefore, there is a point in time where both hashes need to be in memory. 15:21:09 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:21:34 -!- fatblueduck [~user@pool-71-104-155-233.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 15:21:58 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:22:59 Without more data about your specific case, I would say that the first hash is garbage collected at a later time after the second setf, so a subsequent memory allocation would reuse it. 15:23:01 kuwabara, but how long gc will wait to clear the old data from memory ? what happens when user calls gc, I tried but never understood, as the memory usage was still double 15:23:47 kuwabara, ok, let me show you the code then which I was trying t 15:23:52 Memory usage may of may not decrease after gc. Memory can be reused, but quite often can't be released to the system. 15:24:05 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 15:24:17 This is the case for most languages on most platforms. 15:26:01 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:26:47 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:12 kuwabara, oh ok 15:29:26 stassats: did you see my message (here) concerning CommonQt problems? 15:29:33 nope 15:29:45 minion: tell me about logs 15:29:45 stassats: please look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 15:30:06 kuwabara, http://paste.lisp.org/display/115196 here is the code, I must be doing many other things wrong in that 15:31:04 i see now, looking at it 15:34:04 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.74.58.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 15:34:06 -!- ppasteau [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255560.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:06 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255560.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:11 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:02 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082BC33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:22 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082A236.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:36:22 commonqt still feels messy and confusing, even after i started understanding it 15:36:48 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:36:55 Maybe you should just start your own CLIM implementation instead? 15:37:21 i'm waiting for CLIM3 15:38:04 i guess by the time it gets here i'll sort out all problems with commonqt and implement it on to of Qt 15:38:36 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-128-54.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:55 timor [~timor@port-92-195-128-54.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:39:32 and marshalling between C++ and Lisp is one big problem 15:40:08 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:09 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-223.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:40:23 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-128-54.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:28 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:28 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 15:40:46 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:35 timor [~timor@port-92-195-128-54.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:43:08 stassats: yes, C++ is PITA in general... No reflection and no easy access via FFI... On the other hand I like Qt and it's unfortunate that it is implemented in such, well, problematic language 15:43:41 Yeah, Qt is as good as it can be considereing C++ really 15:43:46 qmetaobject helps a little 15:44:10 unfortunately it doesn't include all methods 15:44:20 just signals/slots/properties... 15:44:33 -!- timack [~tim@24.222.87.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:58 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-215-180.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 15:48:10 pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:49 -!- pjb` is now known as ogamita 15:49:36 kslt1 [~user@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:02 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:52:42 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:55:12 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:56:43 gentoo people: does emerge install sbcl from cvs, or where? 15:59:10 cristina [~cristina@79.171.163.162] has joined #lisp 15:59:13 not by default 15:59:42 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:59:58 !ciao 16:00:06 We have release engineering. Pulling directly from CVS bypasses that process unless they pull a specific tag, at which point why the heck not just download the tarball? 16:00:15 !list 16:00:17 Oops. 16:00:20 Wrong window. 16:00:24 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 16:00:28 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:00:41 nyef: completely agreed :-) 16:00:43 I think the CommonQt caching code is messed up in the sense that it still caches more than I meant to cache (while not caching enough to make any reasonable guarantees). 16:00:55 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:14 lichtblau: btw, have you seen ECL's Qt4.x support? 16:01:59 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:07 What confuses me about your patches is this: I don't see any code path that would enter an object into the weak cache except #_new. And #_new has the exact class, not a subclass. So further checks of qobject-class shouldn't be needed. 16:02:49 bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:48 p_l|uni: heard about, but not investigated further. Is there documentation? 16:04:15 lichtblau: afaik yes, but they use ECL's inlining of C code (or in this case, C++) 16:04:40 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:04:46 *p_l|uni* just blurted a viable business opportunity in a channel full of devs... 16:05:29 -!- cristina [~cristina@79.171.163.162] has left #lisp 16:07:34 sblc fans? i'm getting useless backtraces in slime. for example unbound variable inside 6 frames of dross; but no sign of my actual program's frames... pastebin to follow 16:08:07 http://paste.lisp.org/+2GVX 16:08:20 cristina [~cristina@79.171.163.162] has joined #lisp 16:08:26 can somebody explain what's going on with that? 16:08:30 -!- kslt1 [~user@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:38 :-*ciao 16:08:46 "something got wrong" 16:08:54 !list 16:08:59 cristina: What are you trying to do? 16:09:34 bhyde: and where's your code? 16:10:18 :-Xciao 16:10:21 bhyde: It means that the variable *required-type* needs to have a value, but it doesn't. 16:10:29 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7569fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:35 beach - oh yeah i know :) 16:10:35 -!- cristina [~cristina@79.171.163.162] has left #lisp 16:10:50 bhyde: Darwin issues? 16:11:02 Yeah, that's almost-certainly darwin... 16:11:23 yes darwin, is there anything practical I can do? 16:11:29 (The "stack_allocation_recover" frame was a bit of a tipoff...) 16:11:56 Does this happen on all "internal" errors / for anyone else? 16:12:15 stassats - my code is vast, awesome :), and sadly private 16:12:43 nyef it happens on a lot of errors that are what i'd call 'runtime system' level; though not all of them 16:13:07 Hrm. 16:13:28 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:13:59 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: sudden "RTB" request.] 16:15:14 x86 or x86-64? 16:15:24 hm 16:15:37 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:52 gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:22 I'd guess x86-64, but am not entirely certain. 16:16:45 (not (not (member :x86-64 *features*))) --> T 16:16:56 not not? 16:17:13 How about (car (member :x86-64 *features*)) => :x86-64 ? 16:17:36 how about (find :x86-64 *features*) => :x86-64 ? 16:18:04 :) ... (and (member :x86-64 *features*) t) --> t 16:18:38 #+x86-64 t #-x86-64 nil 16:19:53 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:59 or (machine-type) 16:20:06 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:36 (values #+x86-64 t) => t (or "; no values") 16:20:57 stassats: (machine-type) is supposed to be more dynamic than that, I thought? 16:21:05 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:21:35 how often the of the machine changes under your feet? 16:22:15 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:22:21 How often do you run 32-bit binaries on a 64-bit host? 16:23:15 occasionally 16:24:01 -!- ASau [~user@77.246.230.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:24:04 anyhow, i gather i should just live with this behavior... ? 16:24:13 install linux? 16:24:24 bhyde: Actually, it should probably be reported as a bug. 16:24:34 Assuming that it's not already in the tracker. 16:24:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:26:16 is there something like Java's Double.POSITIVE_INFINITY in CL? 16:27:05 Blkt: Possibly not portably, but it's a common thing to see. 16:27:10 -!- ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:13 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:27:20 ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:27 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 16:27:28 nyef - i don't see it in the tracker, backtrace also didn't show it, any other keywords to suggest - http://j.mp/9djKde 16:27:31 ... Yeah, not seeing any bugs in the tracker for this. 16:27:50 I looked under os-darwin and backtrace, neither of which showed. 16:27:58 ok, i'll open a bug and see if i can make a smaller test case 16:28:12 nyef: I didn't get what you said 16:28:41 I understand the portablility matter, but what do you mean with common thing to see? 16:28:41 As far as your test case goes, try (+ 3 nil), and see what happens. 16:28:44 e.g. sb-ext:double-float-positive-infinity 16:29:05 thanks 16:29:08 Blkt: It's not in the standard, but a lot of implementations have it somewhere. 16:29:18 or ccl::double-float-positive-infinity 16:29:32 thanks 16:30:47 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-18-4.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:30:57 in http://www.lispworks.com/products/myths_and_legends.html Myth1, it is written about "properly declared code in Lisp" , does that mean to declare types ? 16:31:14 lichtblau, stassats: I've relaxed type checks for cached objects in (%qobject ...). These were introduced by stassats -- for what reason? Maybe they're really not needed at all? 16:32:22 they're needed, because sometimes the cached class isn't the right class 16:33:25 why? Qt deletes something without lisp side knowing? i don't really know 16:33:31 -!- ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:34:27 stassats: hmm. I can see how the problem you're describing would have happened before 782982aa, but not in versions newer than that... 16:36:07 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:06 -!- gadek [~gadek@62.121.148.46] has left #lisp 16:37:41 stassats: I never saw it too... 16:38:18 well, i did! 16:38:24 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 16:38:25 -!- xan__ [~xan@i125-201-136-161.s02.a027.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:38:46 stassats: any way to reproduce it?.. 16:38:57 not at the moment 16:40:33 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:40:35 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:53 it's very hard to develop this code base any further without lots of tests and benchmarks (both micro- and macrobenchmarks) 16:42:00 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:42:01 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:42:21 gadek [~gadek@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 16:42:21 I've got a few microbenchmarks, but no tests or high-level benchmarks. 16:44:36 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 16:45:11 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:47:19 yes, perhaps every further bugfix / feature additions (including marshalling for different types) should be accompanied by test cases. And I'll try to write some tests for existing functionality too... 16:47:26 -!- konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:16 can I compile lisp code into native binary ? 16:48:20 yes 16:48:38 kushal: It is usually done automatically, but otherwise use compile-file. 16:49:13 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914123505]] 16:49:49 "done automatically"? 16:49:58 ok, i reproduced this 16:50:28 rtoym: Like when you load a file, unless the implementation then uses the interpreter instead. 16:50:33 stassats: let's make the first test case from it... 16:50:41 it's quite large 16:50:46 i'll try to distill it 16:51:31 beach: What implementation besides sbcl compiles when loading? (Does sbcl compile when loading?) 16:51:48 rtoym: You got me there. I don't know. 16:53:37 rtoym: CCL 16:53:43 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.60.137] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54:05 So what's the standard list of things that folks wish were in the standard and aren't? (Especially things that can't be done in userland) Threads. Anything else? 16:54:23 pathnames! doh 16:54:36 stassats: Ah, didn't know that. 16:54:36 beach, it creates a .fasl file which I can run, but can it create native code which does not need sbcl to run ? 16:54:50 kushal: no 16:54:52 kushal: A fasl file contains native code. 16:54:53 gigamonkey: extensible sequences? 16:54:54 stassats: meaning how they map to Unix/Windows filesystems. 16:55:00 stassats, beach ok 16:55:17 And extensible streams, I guess. 16:55:31 kushal: You need a runtime system. It contains the standard functions and the memory manager, among other things. 16:55:33 gigamonkey: yes, lots of uncofortable corner cases 16:55:45 beach, ok 16:55:48 gigamonkey: MOP, too, perhaps 16:55:52 Don't most implementations already support Gray streams? 16:56:04 (Maybe that doesn't count for extensible streams.) 16:56:49 rtoym: they do, but neither completely agree what it should be 16:57:00 rtoym: and they're not in the standard 16:57:02 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-215-180.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:57:02 rtoym: sort of seems like they haven't been widely adopted. 16:57:06 hence the necessity of trivial-gray-streams 16:57:10 There are still things like simple streams, etc. 16:58:05 stassats: I guess that's what happens when there's no official standard. 16:58:33 some also miss a networking library 16:58:36 gigamonkey: also signalling some concrete conditions instead of simple-error wouldn't harm in many places 16:58:42 stassats: ah, that's the one I was blanking on. 16:59:08 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:00:02 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:17 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7569fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:12 gigamonkey: another thing that comes to mind is separation of some kind of 'kernel language', code walker problems etc. 17:02:29 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:02:53 beach: no reason, but I'm pretty sure that code path hasn't been taken either 17:04:15 claint [~user@88.247.119.253] has joined #lisp 17:05:11 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 17:05:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:05:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:07:03 gigamonkey: Subsets! 17:07:44 And the entire symbol / package thing is broken, and... 17:07:46 gigamonkey: as much as lisp and CL were forward thinking with languages, I wish the standard had also had the luck of being forward thinking with the networked world we are in now. Specifically, having some kind of security model. 17:07:48 gonzojive [~red@adsl-76-200-103-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:53 nyef: of the language, you mean? 17:08:42 nyef: everyone complains about packages but I don't know that I've ever seen an obviously better proposal 17:09:16 Yeah. Being able to say "this source file uses math, and classes, and multiple-values, but don't include the eval junk, or hash-tables, or... 17:11:13 Pavitra [~pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-223.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:13:10 nyef: if folks really want that why not make a set of packages that import subsets of symbols from COMMON-LISP? 17:13:23 Then :use those subset packages rather than COMMMON-LISP 17:13:38 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 17:13:39 Yeah, the subset thing is doable in "user-space", but it'd've been nice. 17:17:44 Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:18:20 Oh, and specifying how to compile without needing the entire bloody image loaded. 17:18:33 gigamonkey: working on cltl3? 17:18:42 ehu: nah, just an ILC talk. 17:18:56 ah. heh. it could have been. 17:19:58 -!- splittist [~John@166-141.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 17:20:22 Actually, it starts to look like everybody is creating their own 'next language version' forum. Too bad. 17:20:37 gigamonkey: what we need more than any of that is a central place where we decide upon all this. 17:20:43 once we establish that body, 17:20:56 no problem remains that can't be addresses. 17:20:57 -!- bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:20:59 addressed. 17:21:11 *ehu* is not very hopeful 17:21:25 ehu: actually the point of my talk is that that idea is fundamentally wrong. ;-) 17:21:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.231.174] has joined #lisp 17:22:08 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:22:11 good. because it's a dead end road. 17:22:11 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 17:22:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.231.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:41 I'm eager to learn about your point then. Unfortunately, I won't be at ILC. 17:23:05 Hopefully it'll be recorded or I'll get my act together to create a written version of it beyond just notes. 17:23:06 *nyef* won't be at ILC either. 17:23:31 I guess at the very least I'll bring a digital voice recorder and record it while I deliver it. 17:24:21 that'd be very nice. 17:25:37 Reno's not the most appealing venue, is it? Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. 17:27:45 gigamonkey: Do you like defpackage? 17:27:55 does one have to jump through some strange hoops to get asdf working on windows? 17:28:07 Quadrescence: I think it's basically a fine solution to the problem it sets out to solve. 17:28:08 I tried to day but kept failing miserably 17:28:23 The problems usually arise when people think it's trying to solve a different but similar problem. 17:28:31 gigamonkey: What problem is that? 17:28:51 Guthur: Because, historically, windows didn't have real symlinks, and ASDF, being a unix-targetted project, used symlinks in its search strategy. 17:28:52 How to map text tokens to unique symbols at read time. 17:29:08 (That's the one it solves.) 17:29:22 Which one doesn't it solve that you were referring to? 17:30:01 How to create independent "modules" of software. 17:30:01 nyef, It's really painful, I spent far too much time to day trying to shoehorn a working CL environment into windows 17:30:03 Guthur: It works Just Fine (or did) if you load the .asd files manually, and apparently there are options involving custom search functions. 17:30:21 Guthur, have you checked out Quicklisp. 17:30:25 Meh. I gave up on it. 17:30:37 Pop over to #quicklisp if not. 17:30:39 All of my working CL environments these days are on Linux. 17:30:45 gigamonkey, I am using it on my linux box 17:30:57 And I spent a -lot- of time on it, back when. :-P 17:31:11 gigamonkey, I'll have to give it a whirl on the windows 17:31:41 nyef, I would give a spare appendage to have a linux box at work 17:31:45 One of its main features, as I understand it, is it aims to work the same on Windows as Unices. 17:32:10 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-56.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:32:10 nyef, you're unrelated to the nef at tunes? 17:32:16 Guthur: CoLinux, VMware, et cetera. 17:32:32 Lycurgus: So far as I am aware, I am unrelated to the nef at tunes. 17:32:45 That said, for all I know, we could be second cousins or something. 17:32:47 nyef, I'm tempted, but I don't really have the permission to do that 17:33:09 gigamonkey: May I PM you? 17:33:16 Sure. 17:33:37 just asking because the logging seems to be broken, not limited to this channel though 17:34:31 josemanuel [~josemanue@4.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:35:37 What about the ccl-logbot? 17:36:55 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 17:36:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 17:36:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:37:18 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-206-201.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:37:22 -!- gonzojive [~red@adsl-76-200-103-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 17:37:59 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 17:38:31 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:38:39 wvdschel [~wim@d54C37DB8.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:38:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.231.174] has joined #lisp 17:38:52 minion: logs 17:38:52 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 17:39:43 My main CL environment is on Windows these days. 17:39:55 sorry for the lagged contribution. 17:40:11 I used to work with CL exclusively on Linux. 17:41:10 AlligatorKing [~cen@pool-71-246-124-192.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:23 Yeah, well, you all know my CL-on-Win32 story. 17:41:43 ehu, what CL-implementation do you use there? 17:41:55 wvdschel: ABCL (Java based CL) 17:42:12 ehu, ah, I've tried that as well, but it seemed so insanely slow? 17:42:47 rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-217-99.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:02 wvdschel: could be. what type of problem were you trying to solve? Did you compile the code you were running? It has an interpreter which you're probably invoking from the REPL. 17:43:24 it did produce the best results I've had on windows though. Better to be slow than to have random crashes :) 17:43:49 ehu, is the compiler any good? 17:45:15 the compiler generates direct java byte code. I like it, but there are lots of opportunities for improvement, ofcourse. 17:45:16 -!- Pavitra [~pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:46:11 ehu: How does it run on Android, if it generates java bytecode? 17:46:30 i don't think it does 17:46:41 android uses a java-like language, not java 17:46:43 there was a screenshot recently of initial work 17:46:51 I don't think it runs java bytecode at all 17:46:55 it doesn't fully work on android afaik. 17:46:59 OliverUv: it does not, correct. 17:47:03 oic 17:47:07 right 17:47:26 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:47:54 OliverUv: it'd need to be ported to do that. 17:48:07 ehu: is that what fusss is doing? 17:48:11 OliverUv: Dalvik uses a java->dalvik translator 17:48:24 to generate dalvik bytecode. 17:48:45 sykopomp: maybe in the (near) future. He's dying to learn how the compiler works. 17:49:40 sykopomp: as a bonus, I recently factored out much of the jvm references 17:49:43 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:49:48 Nobody is worried that Android might abandon Dalvik, or at least JAva as its input language? 17:50:03 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:50:24 worried? I -hope- they do! ;) 17:50:31 although I don't see how that's likely. 17:50:37 beach: I can't seem to get the (when (= gap-start (length buffer)) code path to get fired from climacs. I'm wondering if that path is _ever_ followed. 17:50:46 Oracle is a rich company, the lawsuits will not end soon 17:50:55 not after all the effort they've put into getting an ecosystem up and running. 17:51:03 Google is also a rich company. The lawsuits will not end soon :) 17:51:06 beach: oh, never mind. that's how to do it. 17:51:33 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:52:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-006.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:52:47 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:53:11 sykopomp: indeed 17:53:20 I don't get why Oracle have to ruin the things they buy 17:53:25 slyrus_: all booked for ILC? 17:53:35 i was about to rant but that'd be OT 17:53:37 gonzojive [~red@171.66.82.12] has joined #lisp 17:53:39 bbl 17:53:46 beach: and my version doesn't work :( 17:53:55 Xach: no. I might drive up, but there's a lot going on down here. 17:55:00 slyrus_: c'mon, i'll be able to tell you when your blog is down in person! 17:55:14 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 17:55:20 heh, it's been up for a few days now, at least! 17:55:44 so reliable that I have been resisting the urge to switch onto a clojure-based blog system. 17:58:20 jga [~gajon@201.103.221.148] has joined #lisp 17:58:47 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:02:10 phew 18:02:14 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.42.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:02:38 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-217-99.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:03:51 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.73.179] has joined #lisp 18:04:45 OliverUv: Because they don't understand how it might have any worth beyond bringing them profits. 18:04:53 It's called 'capitalism'. 18:06:52 bohanlon [~bohanlon@66.170.231.227] has joined #lisp 18:07:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:08:20 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:22 rfg [~rfg@81.102.104.183] has joined #lisp 18:09:31 TomJ [~tomj@89.241.144.236] has joined #lisp 18:10:16 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:10:25 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:20 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:14:10 Odin-: i have heard of capitalism before 18:14:46 i mean, I am also critical of it 18:15:01 but there are companies which see the value in these things even though they are profit driven 18:15:08 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:47 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:17:39 OliverUv: Certainly. But those companies are usually ones that try to have some semblance of creativity beyond being governed by quarterly profits. 18:18:16 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:16 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:21:08 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:25:06 rtoym: you're a CMUCL developer, yes? 18:25:14 gigamonkey: Yes. 18:25:39 the last of mohicans 18:25:45 Was there a quiescent period in CMUCL's history? 18:26:01 Probably. Why? 18:26:31 I'm curious about it's trajectory: i.e. active in the 80s along with the development of CL itself. 18:26:43 Then funding at CMU dropped in 94. 18:26:57 Was it sort of "revived" later, and if so, by whom? 18:27:21 beach: this seems to work: http://gist.github.com/609277 18:27:23 gigamonkey: did you see my chart? 18:27:31 Xach: nope. 18:27:39 gigamonkey: That would be Paul Werkowski, who finished the x86 port on FreeBSD. 18:27:41 gigamonkey: http://xach.com/charts/cmuclfull.html 18:28:00 I guess my real question is, is there an unbroken chain between the original developers and tody's developers or was there a break in the chain. 18:28:11 gigamonkey: CVS commit history 18:28:39 ASau [~user@77.246.230.186] has joined #lisp 18:28:42 By commits or LOC or something else? 18:28:46 commit count 18:29:03 (i think) 18:29:24 When did SBCL fork? 18:29:46 SBCL forked? 18:29:52 gigamonkey: I think there was a small break at some point when Paul started, but there was also a period of a year or two where Paul's changes were on his own cvs repo. It was only after sometime that Paul got the original cmucl repo to work on. 18:30:08 gigamonkey: 1999 18:30:12 Kovensky: from CMUCL 18:30:15 Heh, ram is Rob MacLachlan who is the guy who is not Skeff Wholey. ;-) 18:30:54 The SBCL announcement was December 1999, wasn't it? 18:31:23 conveniently timed to be ten years before the SBCL 10th anniversary workshop 18:31:38 Who's dtc? 18:31:44 douglas tiberius crosher 18:31:48 Mr. Scieneer 18:32:02 (maybe it's not tiberius) 18:33:05 lol 18:33:26 And was dtc at CMU? 18:33:48 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:33:50 I don't think so. He lives in Australia. 18:33:53 I.e. how did he (and I guess Paul Werkowski) get involved? 18:34:10 Did they just adopt it? Or did they have some connection with the original developers? 18:35:30 I don't recall how Paul and dtc got started. I think I asked long ago, but those email archives are in the great bitbucket in the sky. 18:35:42 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:36:10 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:11 I don't think they were connected with CMU until after they started working on it. 18:36:56 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:42 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:30 gigamonkey: Why the history? 18:40:33 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:40:33 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:40:37 Working on my ILC talk. 18:41:13 Part of my thesis is that the standard, for all its flaws, was good enough to allow the language to cross a "generation gap". 18:41:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:41:32 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:41:32 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 18:41:54 I.e. most of the developers working on CL impls today (with the possible exception of folks at Franz), are not the folks who were involved in the definition of the language. 18:41:56 gigamonkey, who cares? 18:42:11 Fare: I care. 18:42:23 in other words, what lessons for the future? 18:42:27 Xach, apparently. 18:42:37 Fare: That's a nicer way to put it. 18:42:49 What about clisp and gcl. I think they existed around 94 and earlier. 18:43:11 gcl is still massively incompatible 18:43:42 Well, it seems to me that a lot of the present day confusion about how best to move into the future is rooted in poor understanding of the past. 18:44:44 rtoym: were they developed by folks who were involved in the definition of CL (i.e. on the pre-CLTL1 mailing lists or as part of ANSI)? 18:44:54 is there movement in sight for the future? 18:45:14 I haven't seen any recognizable names in the email archives I've looked at but I haven't looked at everything. 18:45:33 gigamonkey: I don't think sds was. Don't know about Bruno. Pretty sure the current gcl maintainer wasn't. ECL maintainer probably wasn't either. 18:45:53 GCL came from KCL which was notable, I think, for being implemented from scratch based on CLTL1, with no other involvement in the language definition. 18:46:18 Fare, depends what you count as movement, I suppose. 18:47:06 I'd say Quicklisp represents useful movement. And, in a completely different way, Clojure is another interesting kind of movement. 18:47:15 *Fare* pats the bowel disruptor on his side. 18:47:26 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-206-201.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:48:07 Quicklisp looks great, but it's not a change to the standard. 18:48:20 Clojure is not based on CL either. 18:48:36 No, but QL can enable other kinds of change. 18:48:45 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@4.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:48:45 And, yes, I'm aware Clojure is not CL. But it is a Lisp. 18:48:55 So depending what you care about, that may or may not be interesting. 18:49:16 aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:49:22 While we're at it, we could include R7RS and Perl 6, then. 18:49:25 I don't expect that CL is the last Lisp that will ever be so I'm glad to see new Lisps with some smarts to them as opposed to, say, Newlisp. 18:49:55 We could. Depends, as I say, what you care about. 18:50:29 but I fail to see how these non-CL lisps are a symptom of the CL standard having or not having been "good enough". 18:50:58 Fare: Do you know who takes care of the tunes log? It seems to be down. 18:50:58 Fare, no, they're all related to the larger topic of my talk. 18:51:07 ouch. 18:51:10 I need to restart it. 18:51:48 That would be great! Thanks! 18:53:12 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:39 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 18:54:25 clog [nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 18:54:32 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:48 gigamonkey, 18:54:55 I'm looking forward to hearing your talk :) 18:55:15 Pressure's on, now. ;-) 18:55:17 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:56:01 fe[nl]ix, thx 18:57:20 Lycurgus: for what ? 18:58:01 the log of this channel not at tunes 18:58:17 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 18:58:57 (specifically causing minion to report same) 18:59:19 :) 19:01:35 What is the #1 thing in the topic line? I don't think I have encountered that yet 19:02:08 *Fare* fe[nl]ix at long last, someone at ITA is going to use iolib for production code... 19:02:08 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:02:09 Borbus_: A reader macro. 19:02:21 damn it, /m and /me are so similar 19:02:21 -!- freik is now known as freiksenet 19:02:27 But I think I get that it's supposed to create an infinite list containing programmable 19:02:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:02:30 gigamonkey: do you know if ccl is also of "unbroken lineage"? i know that there are people working on it now who were involved in the cl standard, or at least around for it. 19:02:44 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:02:47 tokenrove: who are you thinking of? 19:02:58 gigamonkey: gail zacharias, for one 19:03:03 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:03:05 Is the = part of the reader macro? 19:03:05 Borbus_: The reader is able to create arbitrary graph structures through the use of ## and #=. 19:03:34 Borbus_: It is a very powerful feature that I often use to save data structures to a stream. 19:03:34 tokenrove: What do you mean by "unbroken lineage"? 19:04:06 sellout: oh, just what gigamonkey was talking about earlier -- having people involved from, i guess, pre-standard days to the modern age. 19:04:32 Fare: who ? 19:04:45 tokenrove: At least Gary Byers has been working on CCL since 1984. 19:04:49 i think it's an interesting concept, so i hope the ILC talk will be published. 19:05:01 -!- Borbus_ is now known as Borbus 19:05:19 I need to check my paper ANSI standard to see if their names are in the rather large list of folks who contributed to the standard. 19:05:26 sellout: i suspected as much but i only saw gz in some of the ancient mail archives i have here. 19:06:38 Yeah, I see gz in some archives I have. 19:09:38 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:09:59 So CCL started as MCL which started inside Apple, right? 19:10:14 gigamonkey: no 19:10:24 coral existed before apple, right? 19:10:26 gigamonkey: CoralCL -> MCL -> OpenMCL -> ClozureCL. 19:10:53 http://ccl.clozure.com/history.html 19:10:54 gigamonkey: The sidebar here has some info: http://clozure.com/clozurecl.html 19:11:13 Does (setf (gethash s h) 'foo) replace the value of the key s with 'foo? In my case it seems to be adding an identical entry. 19:11:41 Oh, I always forget MACL 19:11:58 Quadrescence: what kind of object is s? 19:12:01 Right. So it started in 1984 so that's right around when CLTL1 came out. 19:12:09 Quadrescence: and what is the test for h? 19:12:18 Xach: A quoted list. The test is the default one. 19:12:29 Quadrescence is it an EQL-hashtable? 19:12:33 sellout: do you know if any of those folks participated in X3J13 19:12:38 Quadrescence: (eql '(a b c) '(a b c)) need not be true 19:12:53 gigamonkey: No idea  rme might, or try #ccl. 19:12:59 Quadrescence: Try adding :test #'equal to your make-hash-table? 19:13:08 Xach: Hm, but I can look up values just fine. Wouldn't that imply that EQL is succeeding? 19:13:13 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-128-54.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:40 Quadrescence: Do you want something that works by coincidence or design? 19:13:43 Quadrescence: 'need not be' means it may behave unpredictably 19:14:04 well, it's quite predictable 19:14:12 Xach: Ralith: Oh, I thought "need not be" implies one or the other and not both. :) 19:14:45 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 19:15:28 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:16:42 To my mind, "need not be" implies that the system is permitted to choose its behavior maliciously. 19:17:36 (eql '(f00) '(f00)) => # 19:17:59 are you native speakers of English? To me it simply implies a lack of necessity 19:18:00 drewc: actually it's not that bad, is it? 19:18:23 it will always return true or false; you just don't want to be in the business of predicting which. 19:18:36 Well, I've met a few nasal daemons, and they were most untasteful characters. 19:18:39 gigamonkey: well, # probably evaluates to true 19:18:45 :P 19:19:01 you just can't _depend_ on that behavior 19:19:33 To me # implies that your hard drive may (or may not) have been reformatted. 19:19:39 Haha 19:19:58 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:20:24 gigamonkey, not just your harddrive, but all harddrives on the planet, and H-bombs may be detonated, too. 19:20:31 i don't think (eql '(f00) '(f00)) is allowed to format your hard-drive 19:20:34 yeah, it does indeed. but it can also imply you'll get the correct behavior in some very specific circumstances 19:20:47 but it would be a most unhelpful implementation that had these effects. 19:20:50 *drewc* is not defending that particular usage 19:21:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:21:02 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:21:03 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 19:21:37 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-199-222.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:22:28 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:43 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:23:42 attila_lendvai: i had some trouble updating from dwim.hu today. was there an outage? 19:24:22 attila_lendvai, what are your gripes against git? 19:24:23 Xach: yeah the server was down, sorry for that. fe[nl]ix knows more, we are hosted on his hw now. 19:25:29 Fare: that i've never spent so much time staring with annoyance at VCS documentation. (i have 10+ years of darcs experience, plus the other crap) 19:25:45 really, the git ui is simply a bad joke 19:26:06 what git ui? 19:26:26 its CLI. the GUI apps are another story... 19:26:39 *Fare* admits to following recipes and having them work well enough that I prefer git to svn. 19:26:48 Also, I never could wrap my head around darcs. 19:26:54 Xach: there was a file system corruption, I had to call technical support to reboot the server 19:26:58 hi fe[nl]ix 19:27:06 hi Blkt 19:28:41 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu252.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:29:46 Fare: also, i've tried to use some patch management layer (stg mainly) over git to make it more usable when it comes to dealing with unpublished patches, but i managed to put it in a broken repo state in 5 minutes. but inspite of all these, i'm planning to use git to manage our extra patches to slime. mass rebase of patches is still not released in darcs... 19:30:24 mpsctlpjhs [~chatzilla@33.81-167-14.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:26 rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:55 *attila_lendvai* reboots dwim.hu for an fsck 19:36:33 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:36:37 re. nasal demons: it is important to distinguish between "unspecified" and "undefined" 19:37:37 the latter can be properly nasal-demon-bad. the former is required to be harmless (whatever the exact wording in the spec is) 19:39:09 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-141.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 19:39:13 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-141.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:39:23 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-141.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:40:42 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-131-56.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:42:35 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:42:55 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:43:44 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-141.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:43:54 -!- mpsctlpjhs [~chatzilla@33.81-167-14.customer.lyse.net] has left #lisp 19:45:16 -!- tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:45:47 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 19:53:44 mattrepl [~mattrepl@64.134.98.227] has joined #lisp 19:54:16 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:22 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:14 benny` [~benny@i577A16C0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:59:35 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1D0E.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:00:11 -!- benny` is now known as benny 20:01:21 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host220-183-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:01:44 hi 20:04:30 hm, I keep getting "error in timer slime-attempt-connection" errors when I start slime in emacs 20:04:47 using sbcl 20:05:34 does it say more? 20:05:57 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:06:20 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:06:27 it's also unstable; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't; when it doesn't, "M-x slime" and answering "no" when it asks if it should relaunch *inferior-lisp* makes it work too 20:06:30 tcr: yes 20:06:44 *Kovensky* goes pastebin 20:06:58 minion: paste 20:06:59 paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations 20:09:16 *Kovensky* pokes lisppaste 20:09:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115203 20:09:29 it doesn't announce anymore. :( 20:10:06 there's not much point in using specifically paste.lisp.org/new/lisp then :( 20:10:28 Krystof [~csr21@nat79.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:11:18 slyrus [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:22 emacs 23.1.1, slime seems... older than I expected it to be (snapshot from 20090908), SBCL 1.0.29.11 20:11:25 Kovensky: I think that's a known bug in Emacs. Just retry M-x slime until it works. 20:11:39 Kovensky: Upgrading to Emacs 24 should fix the issue, iirc. 20:11:48 there's an emacs 24? :D 20:11:58 no 20:12:15 aww 20:12:16 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 20:12:29 Development tree, a late 23.x might have the fix included, too 20:12:32 hun [~hun@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:16 seems my emacs is a minor revision too old 20:13:24 Just make sure not to use bzr but the git mirror :-) 20:13:31 lol 20:13:44 23.2 or git? hmm... 20:14:02 emacs' switch to bzr has not gone swimmingly, has it. :P 20:14:03 *nyef* is still running an emacs22 on one machine. 20:14:18 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7569fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:19 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:14:47 is there even a reason to switch to bzr from git? 20:14:52 speed? 20:14:59 or they're switching from svn? 20:15:01 (isn't bzr notoriously slow?) 20:15:04 they switched from CVS to Bzr 20:15:17 lolcvs 20:15:25 why not git, not free enough for them? 20:15:34 *sykopomp* guesses Launchpad. 20:15:36 "Bzr is a GNU Project." 20:15:41 or that. 20:15:59 Kovensky: So you know, the system-of-record for SBCL is still CVS. 20:16:23 ugh :X 20:16:34 good thing I never developed anything under cvs 20:16:38 All the developers use git, but the system-of-record is still CVS. 20:16:43 (which is somewhat laughable, imho, considering that contributing to it requires copyright assignment to Canonical) 20:17:35 oh, there's a git-cvs too 20:17:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:17:39 I wonder if it lessens the pain 20:17:56 N-14 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:18:19 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:18:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-169-124.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:19:13 davazp [~user@103.Red-88-8-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:31 -!- kmc [clozure@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 20:22:51 Pavitra [~pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:18 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 20:29:18 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-158.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:29:32 Sikander [~soemraws@5356F49F.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 20:29:38 Hello 20:30:03 aerique, can I bug you for a minute? 20:30:13 I was wondering if there are any resources available on how one would go about writing a parser for another language in CL 20:30:18 it's about planet wars 20:30:41 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.82.12] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 20:30:51 I've taken a look at cliki and saw the parser generators there, but also saw parse-js, which doesn't use such things. 20:31:56 Are there any other resources available, or some general documentation on how one would approach such a problem? 20:32:01 Sikander: you might like esrap: http://github.com/nikodemus/esrap 20:32:16 it's a packrat parser 20:33:45 nikodemus: Thanks, I'm having a look now 20:33:53 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-138-192-80.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:33 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 20:35:39 nikodemus: seems interesting, thanks 20:35:50 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:36:13 Sikander: docs are pretty sparse, but it should not be too hard to figure out 20:36:40 gonzojive [~red@171.66.82.12] has joined #lisp 20:37:04 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-138-192-80.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38:20 Sikander: i've got just the thing, ny translation of Hutton's "Monadic Parser Combinators" into common lisp! :) 20:38:24 nikodemus: What is the typical thing you use it for? Reading "data", or as the parser part for a language? 20:39:05 drewc: I don't understand the concept of a monad (although I've never tried too hard to understand either) :( 20:39:48 What is the actual tab character in format? the hyperspec doc says ~t defaults to 2 spaces 20:39:53 Sikander: that's ok, it's meant as an introduction to both parser combinators and monads 20:40:46 Sikander: see http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/smug.html 20:41:15 vs: I use ~C with #\Tab 20:41:29 -!- hun [~hun@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:54 Sikander: i've used it for parsing semi-structured text, but you can parse anything you like with it 20:41:58 Sikander: Sikander and you put each #\Tab character between list items? 20:42:04 source-code _is_ data 20:42:05 (if you wanted tab delimited) 20:42:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:42:24 dparoulek [~dparoulek@c-76-120-251-234.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:20 vs: then I use ~{ ~} for the list 20:44:10 vs: ~t gives you better formatting control, though 20:44:13 Sikander: so (format nil "~a~c~a~%" (list 1 #\Tab 2)) or something? 20:45:15 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d54C37DB8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:45:51 vs: No, in that case not. ~T gives you formatting control, doesn't it? You just say how many spaces you want at least. 20:46:10 Sikander: I need a tab character for further downstream parsing by other people other tools :-) 20:47:17 nikodemus: Sure, but I want to try to parse a toy language and also "run" it from CL, that is possible, right? 20:48:03 Sikander, everything is possible. 20:48:49 There's some sort of comment about turing-church completeness needed here 20:49:01 drewc, and I was just writing an in(de)finite undo stream library... 20:49:22 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 20:49:28 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:49:29 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-211-219.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:49:33 vs: Erm, ok, then I don't know :( 20:50:42 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-138-192-80.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:43 Fare: Sure, but what is the typical thing to do then; parse the language into a list of symbols and arguments, and then have a giant case or if, to test what the symbol is and call the function relating to that symbol's meaning? 20:50:51 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-205-165.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:16 Heh. No wonder I couldn't find any mechanism for that truncated-backtrace bug. The log shows that I fixed it last February. 20:51:23 I feel there is a book I should be reading about this stuff... 20:51:40 I guess I can always just put a tab in the format string with C-q tab 20:51:45 minion: tell esrap about sicp 20:51:45 esrap: please see sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 20:51:50 minion: tell esrap about LiSP 20:51:50 esrap: please see LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 20:52:02 both of those teach you this and more 20:52:13 tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 20:52:22 Greetings lispers 20:52:36 Hi 20:53:01 What about PAIP? It has a chapter on compilation as well. 20:53:17 nikodemus: Thanks; I guess you meant minion to tell me that, and not your packrat parser 20:53:19 yeah, paip would be my first vote, too. 20:53:23 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:52 minion: tell Sikander about paip 20:53:53 Sikander: please look at paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 20:54:17 Actually, Winston and Horn has a chapter on "Lisp in Lisp", at least in the second edition. 20:54:47 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54:57 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:55:08 -!- jga [~gajon@201.103.221.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:56:03 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@64.134.98.227] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 20:56:06 i dunno about W+H, but the Art of Prolog has a pascal-like compiler in about twenty pages, and once you have PAIP, you have enough prolog in your lisp to copy it. 20:56:26 mattrepl [~mattrepl@64.134.98.227] has joined #lisp 20:56:51 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:53 Ok, thanks for the suggestions. 20:57:19 Mmm. Simple language environments is easy once you know what you're doing. It's optimizing compilers that's hard (in both senses of the phrase). 20:57:28 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255560.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:58:57 I actually seen a computer job recently that want someone with experience in creating language environments and compilers 20:59:02 computer games* 20:59:31 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:59:38 -!- claint [~user@88.247.119.253] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:59:42 Sounded very interesting indeed 21:00:05 Meh. They want someone to work on their in-game scripting engine. 21:00:09 How "easy" is it, generally, to write a parser in CL for a simple language? 21:00:19 Say, for something like posix shell? 21:00:31 Sikander: (defun parse-simple-language (stream) (read stream)) ? 21:00:33 writing a recursive descent parser by hand is trivial 21:00:37 heheh 21:00:43 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@64.134.98.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:00:46 posix shell is hardly a simple language. 21:00:47 Sikander: I'm a broken record, but I vote META-SEXP. 21:00:53 mattrepl [~mattrepl@64.134.98.227] has joined #lisp 21:01:13 nyef, Possibly, its the company behind one the largest MMOs 21:01:29 not the WoW one 21:01:35 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.231.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:02 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.73.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:02:06 Runescape 21:02:38 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:02:57 nyef: Ok, you mean in terms of syntax, it's not simple, right? 21:03:07 But I certainly wouldn't knock it, it would knock the socks of enterprise java for a financial institution 21:03:19 In fact, it's a big, mess... dammit 21:03:38 -!- bohanlon [~bohanlon@66.170.231.227] has quit [Quit: Farewell!] 21:03:39 Sikander: Smalltalk wasn't too hard to parse, if that helps at all. 21:03:47 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.143.89] has joined #lisp 21:04:02 -!- Krystof [~csr21@nat79.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05:05 nyef: did you write an interpreter for it? 21:05:40 drewc: perhaps I can use smug as a CL-replacement for joshua choi's fnparse (clojure) for my SMILES parsing 21:05:50 Sikander, considering that Lisp is self-extensible, that means implementing all of Lisp in shell 21:05:59 Sikander: And a compiler, but they both had bugs to do with closures. 21:06:17 ... Actually, I wrote -two- compilers, one to ST-80 bytecode. 21:06:34 Fare: ? 21:06:57 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:07:07 nyef: Do you have CL code lying somewhere that you could share? :) 21:07:52 Sikander: in terms of parsing shell, you might want to approach it in a way similar to the way existing shells do. see what approach is used by programs like dash and pdksh; that approach will only be made simpler by CL. 21:08:35 tokenrove: Sounds like a good idea 21:08:36 Sikander: http://www.lisphacker.com/codex/004-parsing-smalltalk.txt is readily available, the rest doesn't appear to be. 21:08:59 nyef: thanks 21:09:00 Sikander: I missed out on the motivation, why do you want to parse shell in CL? 21:09:09 No reason. 21:09:17 I wanted to parse "a language" in CL 21:09:23 jga [~gajon@189.253.66.20] has joined #lisp 21:09:49 I wanted to make a simple command line interface for a set of functions I have, something similar to sh, in a way 21:11:05 tmh: A simple shell, if you will, for the standard data processing I do on the fly while collecting data 21:12:05 OK 21:12:30 ... The REPL not good enough for you? 21:12:53 I had also been looking at the shuffletron interface, which is a big conditional statement 21:12:56 *tmh* was thinking the same thing, but. 21:13:16 I didn't want to dig further to understand the requirements. 21:14:01 Sure, I use the repl now 21:14:16 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:23 I just want to limit the possibilities (for a student who doesn't understand lisp) 21:15:09 Any suggestions? 21:15:13 Sikander: You have the opportunity to corrupt a student with knowledge of lisp and your passing it up? 21:15:17 Why limit students 21:15:20 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:30 *Sikander* sighs. 21:15:34 make him gain knowledge instead... 21:15:41 Sikander: you might not need to parse a full language for that. some good emacs bindings would be enough, or a tab-completing line editor that removes one layer of parens and does some function-specific syntactical sugar. 21:15:43 *tmh* was kidding. :-) 21:15:53 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:03 Well, I'm in physics, right. And everyone is allergic to lisp where I work 21:16:34 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255560.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:16:56 ah, just write a fortran interface to your code and hand them some punch cards. 21:16:59 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@64.134.98.227] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 21:17:15 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:21 tokenrove: It would not be a full language, just some small things. Which is this tab-completing line editor that removes a layer of parens, btw? 21:17:23 mattrepl [~mattrepl@64.134.98.227] has joined #lisp 21:17:45 I was considering cl-python, since he does know python 21:18:00 You could just give them a limited package 21:18:06 Sikander: oh, you'd write that yourself, tailored to your problem domain, but you could start with something like linedit which is much like readline. 21:18:19 Ah, right. 21:18:22 unless you wish to save them from the parenthesis as well 21:18:50 Guthur: Well, yes, that's one of the major issues people are allergic to 21:18:57 I don't understand this, though... 21:19:05 Sikander: Look at how MAXIMA does it. 21:19:31 Sikander, ye its rather baffling 21:19:33 Sikander: And PAIP was mentioned earlier, that is definitely a good place to start. 21:19:36 Everyone exclaims OMG THE PARENS and immediately goes on how incredibly difficult lisp is to understand ("Where is the function?! Where is the argument?!") 21:19:41 don't forget that you can cheat a lot with carefully chosen reader macros. 21:19:51 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:09 the parens are only difficult just because the normal repl does not flash them or colorize... 21:20:14 Sikander: To make your life easy, is there already a tool that everyone is familiar with? Copy that language. 21:20:27 s/Copy/Adapt/ 21:20:34 tmh: yeah, that would be both shell-like, and python 21:20:34 slsh ? 21:20:38 I miss my parens so, java makes me feel unclean 21:20:40 huups 21:20:58 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21:00 Sikander: Python is big in physics? 21:21:21 *tmh* thinks of a joke about reference frames. 21:21:37 how do I create a symbol for a plist in CL? 21:21:43 tmh: It's definately getting there. People stop using matlab (thank god) and python is the thing of choice now 21:21:48 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@64.134.98.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21:58 Blkt: eh ? 21:22:03 python is used at least in biochemistry quite a lot. i've yet to use it in physics, but i mostly do FEM/FVM-stuff. it's probably too slow. :/ 21:22:55 Sikander: I'm slightly surprised, but overall think it is a step in the right direction. 21:23:00 hey all, I'm an absolute lisp newbie. I'm sure this is obvious, but can't seem to find the answer... I'd like to pass an association list into a function, for example, I'd like to pass this: '(created . (current-time)) 21:23:05 hypno: The reason people like python, is that it serves as excellent glue, while numerical stuff is done by the numpy module, which is written in C/fortran (i.e. libraries) 21:23:20 how do I get (current-time) to evaluate? 21:23:48 dparoulek: Create a list, don't quote it. 21:23:49 fe[nl]ix: I want to create as many symbols as vertices in a graph to represent neighbours of a vertex 21:23:56 dparoulek: (cons 'created (current-time)) :) 21:24:07 dparoulek: (cons 'created (current-time)) 21:24:13 awesome, thanks 21:24:15 dparoulek: or `(created . ,(current-time)) 21:24:25 Sikander: Ah, ok. I have not have any course really at chalmers that covered it. the HPC people is all about fortran more or less (or C), and for the rest mostly use matlab, with MEX-stuff for glue if speed is really needed. 21:24:47 fe[nl]ix: so that I can (getf :x (neighbs y)) 21:24:56 tmh: Why are you surprised? 21:26:01 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-39-80.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:05 Blkt: but why use a plist ? 21:26:17 fe[nl]ix: what should I use? 21:28:05 Sikander: My experience is that by the time a professor gets tenure, s/he looses interest in learning new tools. Thinks it's a distraction from their actual research and consequently imposes the tools they are comfortable with on their students. 21:28:10 Blkt: a hashtable, for example 21:28:26 mmm, I don't have many vertices... 21:28:54 tmh: Ah, professors here don't care what you use, as long as you produce results. It's up to PhD's to choose. 21:29:23 In fact, if you ask them what they would suggest, they tell you to ask other PhD students what is typically used. 21:29:49 This goes for everything, EXCEPT for LaTeX. If you don't use LaTeX, you don't belong. 21:30:00 Sikander: Awesome. 21:30:24 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:51 Which is slightly ironic, considering fucking around with LaTeX can be such a waste of time it borders on insanity. 21:31:16 tmh: I think it's a good way to do it, since students will use what they are comfortable with and have fellow students to help them for stuff they don't know. 21:31:18 better than MS Office. 21:31:24 MSWord* 21:31:41 The problem is that LaTeX sucks, but there just isn't anything better out there. 21:32:02 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:32:05 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas11-montreal02-1128531309.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:32:10 latex does not suck. if you want more control (and more wasted time), try context. 21:32:11 tmh: But beach would probably kick my ass and tell me I should force them to use lisp 21:33:55 tokenrove: context is completely different, no? I mean, latex _hides_ the typography from the writer and just does the right thing. 21:34:05 Sikander: exactly. 21:34:41 I've been finding that I like LaTeX, but dislike the tools I have for working with it. 21:34:51 nyef: Exactly 21:35:02 *nyef* glares at org-mode. 21:35:09 Sikander: I'm split on that. If learning lisp is too much of a distraction, they shouldn't do it. It's a fine line to walk. 21:35:18 I quite liked using Auctex, actually (was that the name?) 21:35:36 Yeah, auctex, particularly the preview stuff, is great. 21:35:42 getting inline previews of everything was quite handy :) 21:35:43 *Sikander* feels shame of bringing up LaTeX in a CL channel. 21:35:50 Except when it doesn't :) I've spent days messing with graphs and tables to get them at the place specified, and it /is/ a black art. 21:36:03 Sikander: Ideally, you would have enough lisp support packages to make learning lisp worth the students time. 21:36:15 But doesn't seem to integrate well with what I try to use it for. 21:36:34 And don't get me started on the complete disaster that trying to usefully format source listings in LaTeX turned out to be. 21:36:39 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 21:36:50 tmh: One of the problems, though, is that python _does_ have numpy, which makes numerical operations on arrays easy. 21:37:31 tmh: Also, everyone is used to a C-like syntax, e.g. variable_name = some_value 21:38:01 tmh: So actually, your MAXIMA suggestion was right on the spot. I will have a look there. 21:38:43 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:38:57 Sikander: Way back I was using Python exactly as you describe. At the time, there 2 competing numerical libraries, numpy was one. It was frustrating because the concensus was to use one and not the other, but the one that was supposed to be the future never made any progress. 21:40:14 tmh: Which one was that? I remember Numeric and numpy/scipy. 21:40:19 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:20 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-20-67.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:40:36 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:40:37 Sikander: I think it was Numeric and numpy, which came first? 21:41:03 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:41:43 tmh: I think Numeric came first, then numpy. At a certain point, Numeric didn't go anywhere, and everyone started using numpy.Numeric (or so, which was a compatibility module), and transitioned to numpy. 21:43:15 I do think, though, that for this type of things, like calculations and numeric operations, language features of C or maxima (such as assignment and infix notation) are more appropriate 21:44:05 So even though I use the repl now, I want to write a small interpreter for such a thing, and I'd probably end up using that as well for this specific purpose. 21:44:07 Sikander: The win for me with CL is what everyone gripes about, the standard has not been updated. I'm glad it hasn't, I don't want to have to update code because of an updated language version. This is even a problem with Fortran. It's worse with Python and Java. 21:44:50 Ok, so, why should the standard be updated? 21:45:06 In Lisp, provided you could get it fast enough for serious work, why not try the DSL-route? 21:45:09 And on which points? 21:45:30 Sikander: I don't know, but it always seems to be something people gripe about. 21:45:32 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:46:19 hypno: Yes, so, how would I go about doing that? Would PAIP be of help there? Are there any good examples one could learn from? 21:46:40 Sikander: PAIP would definitely help for that. 21:48:13 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4D78.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:08 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:49:10 Sikander, does prefix or even postfix not provide for a nicer representation 21:49:16 ? 21:49:19 Hmm, no standard update is not *the* win for me, just a perk. :-) 21:49:59 I have grown to like both actually, prefix from CL and postfix from Forth 21:50:26 Sikander: I've not seen a really nice declarative language for math in any lisp really. but it should be doable of course. Hell, you should even be able to describe /equations/, BCs, meshes perhaps and so forth, and have the computer figure out the rest. That would be quite an improvement over matlab at least. 21:52:31 slyrus: smug works really well for what it does, i've been very happy with it. I've used it to replace the parser in cl-org-mode, and it was a significant reduction in code from the ad-hoc recursive descent CLOS-y parser i had in there before. 21:52:33 hypno: That'd be nice. Possibly even nicer than being able to just drop some math notation in the middle of a function and have it "work". 21:52:41 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:53:51 tmh: Ok, ordered. 21:53:58 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-199-222.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:54:28 Guthur: Hmmm... I'm not sure. For some reason, when doing math-like things, I like to have math-like notation. 21:54:53 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:54:58 nyef: Even nicer would be to drop TeX math notation in there :) 21:55:09 Sikander: That's what I meant. 21:55:12 hey guys - fairly new to lisp here. right now i'm playing around on emacs using slime with clisp and have run into a bit of weird behavior. if i make calls to format, read-line, and y-or-n-p consecutively, a blank line is inserted before the yes or no prompt. It seems to only happen when all 3 are used together & only on slime (can't reproduce it on the clisp cli). any1 know why this might be? 21:55:17 nyef: Ah, ok. 21:55:35 sikander, polish notation? 21:55:42 I wasn't aware that math notation was TeX math notation! :) 21:55:49 Guthur: I'm not polish ;) 21:55:53 hehe 21:55:57 Sikander: The classic http://common-lisp.net/~abridgewater/lisp-tex-test-2.png "I know how to make that compile" thing. 21:55:58 I see your point 21:56:07 reverse polish notation then.... 21:56:10 hehe 21:56:11 nyef: Heh, oh yeah. Imagine such a package with proper OpenGL support, symbolic mathematics integrated, network support for number crunching nodes and so forth. 21:56:58 The problem I ran into, though, is while I know how to make it compile, making it actually look good and be easily editable is a royal pain. 21:57:22 nyef: wtf?! that's awesome! 21:57:38 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas11-montreal02-1128531309.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:58:26 nyef: I'd never seen that... 21:58:26 drewc: have you looked at fnparse? 21:58:34 Sikander: As I said, I know how to make it compile, but making it easily editable is pain. 21:58:45 That's from February or so. 21:58:47 nyef: hmm. you use latex in the background to generate the nice math? 21:58:57 hypno: Yeah, that's the auctex preview thing. 21:59:07 Oh. Very cool. 21:59:29 nyef: Doesn't texmacs do some latex wysiwyg stuff? How does it make that editable? 22:00:09 slyrus: just did. pretty much the same idea yeah? 22:00:16 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:00:30 Sikander: Not the point. Try getting it working in a proper lisp mode instead of in a TeX mode. 22:00:43 Ah, right... 22:00:50 drewc: my cursory glance said yes 22:01:14 -!- gadek [~gadek@62.121.148.46] has quit [Quit: zaraz sprawdz moliwoci XChat-a] 22:01:19 Dammit, why does emacs seem so awesome... I'm much faster in vim... 22:01:34 Sikander: because you haven't learned Emacs yet 22:01:40 and because itis 22:01:42 slyrus: yeah, only he's actually using a monad library, where i didn't, as i 22:01:55 was only concerned with parsing 22:02:00 Adamant: I'm working on it... 22:02:31 Adamant: Navigation with Ctrl-... is awful, though... 22:02:38 *drewc* has another implementation of the parser monad using interface passing style monads, but it's not as fast as using defuns and inlining them 22:02:38 Sikander: no, I mean that's why you're faster in vim. years of use kinda wires it to you. you have to write Emacs to the same level. 22:02:50 *wire Emacs 22:03:13 Also, the "feel" is very different... 22:03:30 I don't feel at home and silently start to cry 22:04:09 Sikander: navigate with incremental search and larger motion keys, just as you don't move around in vim with just hjkl. 22:04:15 And, I hate that emacs lisp is subtly different... 22:05:04 tokenrove: But e.g. 5j is easy in vim, though. 22:05:08 -!- AlligatorKing [~cen@pool-71-246-124-192.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:05:21 Sikander: actually a lot of us don't like that. Either CL or Scheme would be preferable. but for various reasons, it will not happen anytime soon. 22:05:29 slyrus: parsing is one of those things that monads are so well suited for, i find it hard to believe it's not a more commonly used technique. 22:06:08 sikander: not that much harder to do M-5 C-n, though. besides, normally i like to move by logical units (paragraphs, sexps, etc) rather than fixed line/char counts. 22:06:18 Sikander: viper-mode helped me a lot when i started with emacs. it basically gives you a vi[m]-clone, but with all the emacs goodies. :) 22:06:33 moving around with C-s is the real key, though. it makes things a lot faster. 22:07:00 cow-orker [~mw@c541745C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 22:07:16 srcerer_ [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:33 Sikander: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-es/Vimpulse is the viper-mode for vim users 22:07:49 i used viper-mode at first as well, and slowly weaned myself off it 22:08:01 Sikander: Anyway, the trick to getting the sort of stuff in that screenshot to compile is fairly obvious: A $ reader-macro. 22:08:03 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:08:05 Ok, dammit, I'll keep trying. Any (urls with) suggestions for the beginner to set up emacs as an editor for _everything_ (i.e. writing LaTeX documents, hacking C, CL etc)? 22:08:38 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-140-115.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:08:40 Dammit, lisp is just too powerful. How's vimscript going to compete with that?! :D 22:08:45 zc00gii_ [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:57 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:09 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:09:10 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:09:10 -!- cow-orke1 [~mw@c541745C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:09:10 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:10 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:09:18 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 22:09:24 Sikander: it'll take a while. i had used vi and vim for many years before i switched to emacs, and it was a long and difficult process, but finally, well worth it. 22:09:26 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-20-67.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 22:09:28 Sikander: http://www.emacswiki.org/ is a good resource. 22:09:36 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 22:09:42 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 22:10:37 tokenrove: Ok, I'm keeping this in mind. If I still don't feel comfortable in 10 years, there'll be hell to pay! 22:10:41 ;) 22:11:01 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:50 In ten years? Honestly, if you're not comfortable within ten -months-, you're doing something wrong. 22:13:08 (Probably substantially less, 10 weeks might even be overkill.) 22:14:09 So I generally use vim in an xterm (so no gvim). Do people use emacs or emacs -nw, typically? 22:14:37 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255560.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:14:42 i almost always use the "gui" version. 22:14:46 *Sikander* I should actually just go to an emacs channel... 22:15:00 Mmm. windowed here, almost every time. 22:15:09 once you get used to emacs buffer handling you will constantly miss it in vim. that i basically what hooked me on it at least, heh. 22:15:20 I've got three frames open on my laptop right now. 22:15:23 Hmmm, hate the black on white. Need to invert that then 22:15:53 vim also has frames, i.e. split screens. 22:15:56 I got used to the black-on-white, but the first three things that go in my .emacs is to kill the toolbar, menubar, and scrollbar. 22:16:31 Ok, do most people use black on white? Don't your eyes start hurting? Do your xterms also have black on white? 22:16:47 nyef: That's an excellent idea. 22:17:07 Sikander: http://195.43.248.109/~hypno/emacs 22:17:35 Sikander: now, there is a lot of shit you dont need in that, heh. but you do get white on black at least. :) 22:18:01 hypno: Ah, thanks :) 22:18:03 The correct color for a termie is white-on-black. For a while I had my emacsen configured for black-on-white, but it tends to break down for a few things, and one of them was operation on windows: The mouse cursor can be invisible. 22:18:23 Err... s/black-on-white/white-on-black/. 22:18:32 Sikander: you also get slime, and netbsd kernel normal form C-style mode for your C sources. "iwb" is nice when you want to auto-ident all your source, ie, M-x iwb 22:18:41 cen___ [~cen@rrcs-208-125-13-148.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:53 I'd also imagine that LaTeX preview looks better in black-on-white (not having tried it the other way.) 22:19:16 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:20:00 hypno: I appreciate it; it gives me a nice example of an emacs setup. I'll steal what I need and probably learn a lot from it. Thanks 22:20:01 cen___1 [~cen@rrcs-208-125-13-148.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:37 nyef: Sure, for latex preview mode, you're right. Wonder if it's possible to revert to black-on-white in preview mode.... 22:21:38 -!- anonymouse89 [~anonymous@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:22:55 You'd configure the faces specifically for LaTeX mode or something. 22:23:07 nyef: I put (menu-bar-mode 0), but when emacs starts, it shows the menubar for a fraction of a second. Is that right? 22:23:07 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:08 -!- cen___ [~cen@rrcs-208-125-13-148.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:23:28 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-138-192-80.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:23:33 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:39 Yeah, hang on, that took some research to figure out. 22:25:10 Try putting "Emacs.menuBar: off" in your ~/.Xresources and reload the resource DB. 22:25:21 That works on emacs23. 22:25:47 ... or emacs22. I forget which. 22:25:49 Maybe both. 22:25:50 nyef: Ok, same goes for scroll and tool, I guess? 22:26:13 Emacs.verticalScrollBars: off and Emacs.toolBar: 0, but yeah. 22:26:21 Anyway, gone for food, back in a bit. 22:27:58 -!- davazp [~user@103.Red-88-8-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:48 Ok, time for me to get some sleep. Big day tomorrow, working with emacs and all... 22:30:59 Thanks for all the help, suggestions etc. 22:31:04 Goodnight 22:31:21 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356F49F.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: Time to sleep...] 22:35:33 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 22:37:01 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:09 gadek [~gadek@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 22:43:03 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:45:52 -!- gadek [~gadek@62.121.148.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:45:52 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:45:56 gadek2 [~gadek@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 22:46:15 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 22:47:34 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:45 -!- kmc [kmc@clozure-5A26C47B.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kmc] 22:51:10 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255560.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:51:47 dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has joined #lisp 22:55:06 cen___ [~cen@rrcs-208-125-13-148.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:59 -!- cen___1 [~cen@rrcs-208-125-13-148.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:57:05 aidalgol [~user@132.181.15.216] has joined #lisp 22:57:32 fatblueduck [~user@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:56 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-61-130-34.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:14 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-61-130-34.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:41 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:57 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925385285.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:11:31 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:18:28 -!- gadek2 [~gadek@62.121.148.46] has left #lisp 23:18:47 gadek [~gadek@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 23:19:36 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-3-220.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:25:09 l_n [~l_n@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has joined #lisp 23:25:19 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 23:33:52 -!- l_n [~l_n@tuxhacker/lordnothing] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:35:20 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:35:43 -!- tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:41 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-193-253.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:11 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:03 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-216-215.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:38:20 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-grnlqdsxcsksuoeo] has joined #lisp 23:39:23 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-grnlqdsxcsksuoeo] has quit [Client Quit] 23:41:45 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:18 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:13 -!- rfg [~rfg@81.102.104.183] has quit [Quit: rfg] 23:47:26 -!- aidalgol [~user@132.181.15.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:31 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-3-220.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:50:05 -!- fatblueduck [~user@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:51:02 -!- guther_ is now known as guther 23:51:06 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-3-220.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:51:28 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-20-67.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:52:39 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@cpe-174-100-235-249.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:19 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:06 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 23:55:19 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp