00:00:15 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:02:00 Hmm. Slime dies when cmucl tries to print a string containing surrogate pairs for a codepoint outside the BMP. 00:02:15 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75681c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:35 ... Damnit, specbot! 00:03:50 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:46 minion: Are you okay? 00:04:47 maybe 00:04:50 Good enough. 00:06:38 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:08:17 Xach: 1.0.38 -- not even ancient. 00:08:50 What? That's -so- five months ago! 00:09:48 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.85.36] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 00:09:56 *Fare* extracts the asdf from there with (cd ~/src/sbcl ; git show ,sbcl_1_0_38:contrib/asdf/asdf.lisp) and tries to correlate that with something in the asdf repo 00:10:36 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:46 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:44 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:12:10 -!- phadthai [mmondor@66.11.161.166] has quit [Quit: brb] 00:12:46 phadthai [mmondor@66.11.161.166] has joined #lisp 00:13:18 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:13:20 hum. How do I iterate something across all git revisions? 00:13:47 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:49 xavieran_ [~xavieran@ppp118-209-81-14.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:39 for rev in `git rev-list ...`; do ...; done? 00:18:29 ugh asdf 00:20:17 -!- pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:20:40 nyef: thanks! 00:20:53 *Fare* prefers $( ... ) to `...` - it nests better 00:21:23 yeah, $(...) is a god send 00:21:28 (as is $IFS) 00:22:01 <_3b> rtoym: at one point i remember having problems with lisp and emacs disagreeing about the length of strings with odd characters in them 00:22:04 (and GNU coreutils on Solaris 10 is "oh god someone kill me", but that's waay OT) 00:24:03 _3b: Ah, is that the problem? Could very well be. 00:24:27 for i in $(git rev-list HEAD -- asdf.lisp) ; do echo "$i $(git show "$i":asdf.lisp | sha1sum)" ; done | grep fd7eab8cd8e5eaeb34264896d62a8bb3847b4d00 ===> nothing :( :( :( 00:24:57 so the ASDF in sbcl doesn't exactly match any revision in the asdf git repo. Lovely. 00:25:44 Of course not, SBCL's ASDF is -upstream-. :-P 00:25:54 (Or was.) 00:26:06 :-/ 00:27:08 *Fare* finds that 1.0.38's asdf comes from nikodemus's 1.0.29.50 which says "update ASDF" from http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.git 00:27:57 *Fare* thanks git log sbcl_1_0_38 -- contrib/asdf/asdf.lisp and digs what was the state of ASDF on 2009-06-27 00:28:05 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-006.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 00:28:50 Okay, linux 2.6.35.7 building on my x86oid. 00:29:05 of course, gwking was in the middle of hacking asdf.lisp the same day. 00:29:09 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-142-120.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:29:11 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-142-120.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:29:40 *nyef* is glad he finally started making notes on important system maintenance routines, such as building new kernels and fixing the system clock from open-firmware. 00:30:12 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:18 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-220-114.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:44 grrr for software archeology. 00:31:56 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-220-114.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:32:57 btw, does anyone know of a *fast* way of converting a bit-vector to integer (and vice-versa)? It came up today on #lisp-pl and I'd like to see an "experienced" solution. 00:33:04 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:33:43 p_l|uni: i don't know, offhand, but why bother? 00:34:00 *rtoym* doesn't know of any way other than extracting each bit and putting into the integer. 00:34:20 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:34:20 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925385290.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:34:31 Xach: I don't know exactly what the guy needed it for, but I recall needing to do that once too (though I suspect I ended up not needing it in the end) 00:34:35 p_l|uni: On the one hand, why bother using a bit-vector? On the other, if I were on SBCL (or maybe CMUCL), the combination of VECTOR-DATA-SAP (or whatever it's called) and SAP-REF-32 would work wonders. 00:34:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:35:01 It's vector-sap. 00:35:09 Right, something like that. 00:35:17 I usually have to look it up every time I use it. 00:35:18 you guys are entirely not paranoid enough about the gc moving stuff around on you. 00:35:36 Everything on the register set and on the stack is pinned. 00:36:24 (Okay, that's not true on all systems for me, but for x86oids it's the case.) 00:36:27 Even on ppc? 00:36:34 No, not on PPC. 00:37:42 Another possibility is to smash up the bit-vector into something larger, like an (unsigned-byte 32)-vector. 00:37:53 Here's a gross hack: Frob the bit-vector header to look like a bignum. 00:38:01 Oh, too slow! 00:38:22 Different slot layout, isn't it? 00:39:07 Oh, maybe. I thought simple-bit-vector just had a header word, like bignums. Need to check though. 00:39:34 *Fare* sorts asdf revisions by number of lines that differ from sbcl's ASDF 00:39:40 For something in this vein, have a look at RENDER-GL-TEXT in http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=users/abridgewater/game-stuff.git;a=blob;f=scratch-drawing.lisp;h=5977a2db66ecd8f94cebbd6616f20edb878bd1a2;hb=52cfe65585da056816b3956b5e926edc6460c26a 00:40:14 *rme* winces 00:40:32 *Fare* finds 3ef18cd49ef82c6a2dd92034972019721458d22c that only differs by whitespaces. 00:40:52 Fare: Right, whitespace canonicalization. 00:41:04 SBCL's build process converts tabs to spaces. 00:41:14 that explains it. 00:41:28 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:51 ... damn, it's sad day when one of the first things I thought as reasons for getting a new computer is "Firefox will stop lagging... hopefully". My developement tools run fast enough most of the time :/ 00:41:56 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:42:06 now -- should I extract each and every revision of ASDF that was used by SBCL ? 00:42:18 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 00:43:29 nyef: You're right. vectors have a length word and bignums don't. So you'd have to frob the header to be a fixnum or something and smash the length slot to look like a bignum header. Of course, this will only work if the bit-vector bit order is the same as the bignum order. 00:43:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:43:54 Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:43:54 rtoym: I think they're both LSB-first. 00:44:47 nyef: I meant p_l examples. Sometimes I've used bit vectors where bit 0 was actually the MSB. 00:44:47 Fare: So, if you want to create some sort of mapping between asdf.git versions and sbcl.git versions, start with the asdf.git versions, create untabified files, use git-hash to find the corresponding sbcl.git checksums, then look to see if the object exists in sbcl.git? 00:45:05 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.75.4.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:45:08 ... On PPC? 00:45:28 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:45:50 nyef: No, it was a matter of interpretation. I had a bitvector that I wanted to convert to an integer. element 0 was supposed to be the MSB of the integer. 00:46:25 Mmm. Even then, it'd be faster to reverse the bits once you have them as an integer, surely? 00:46:49 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.165.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 00:46:58 Speed was not important so, I just did the simple loop thing. 00:47:11 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 00:47:16 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:24 Actually, I might have even used read-from-string/format to do it at one point. :-) 00:47:54 Ah, yes. Optimizing for programmer time, not for run time. 00:48:11 Oh, and if the bit-vector is supposed to be a positive integer, converting to a bignum might end up producing a negative integer. 00:48:36 ... Right. 00:49:08 I think I'll stick with converting strings to octets. 00:50:06 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:50:25 Oh! While I think of it, and while you're here, how's the x86oid disassembly in CMUCL? 00:50:28 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:03 Joreji_ [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:51:16 Are there any other implementations than SBCL that used to distribute copies of ASDF? 00:51:44 ecl did. 00:51:53 -!- Anarch [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:52:17 nyef: What do you mean? It works, I think. 00:52:40 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 00:52:44 minion: paste 115066? 00:52:44 Paste number 115066: "more disassembly" by nyef in None. http://paste.lisp.org/display/115066 00:53:13 What I've actually got running now has even more notes. 00:53:52 anyone has any advice regarding building equivalent of Ruby's Delayed::Job framework for Lisp (SBCL/CCL used server side)\ 00:54:34 leo2007 [~leo@117.28.22.96] has joined #lisp 00:54:48 There, annotated with the most recent thing I've got. 00:55:20 nyef: more like, list the revisions of SBCL where ASDF changed, and for each of them, find the revision in asdf.git that has least diff -uab | wc -l 00:55:37 Fare: Or that, yes. 00:55:48 meh. 00:56:13 in any case, not for today, but sent email to asdf-devel in case someone (including a future self) has courage for it. 00:57:05 rtoym: Anyway, I just spent a day and a half improving x86oid disassembly in SBCL, and figured that CMUCL might be able to use some of the changes. 00:57:34 The disassembly before and after are the same. 00:57:37 should I commit old versions to the test tree, or should I have the make target for tests extract the versions from git? 00:57:48 Yeah, but look at the notes on the right side. 00:57:59 Let me paste cmucl's result. 00:58:47 rtoym: you mean annotate 00:58:56 Yes, of course. :-) 00:59:04 nyef: annotated. 01:00:13 I think Tim Moored added all that goodness. 01:00:30 ... Nice. You win. 01:01:21 "CMP EDX, 186", though? Really? 01:01:39 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:02:26 What's wrong with 186? 01:02:39 what kind of tag is that, anyway? 01:02:48 It was an accident, but have a look at the equivalent in the SBCL output. 01:02:52 you both lose by not including it in the comment. 01:03:15 (The threaded SBCL output.) 01:03:16 tcleval [~funnyguy@187.114.112.134] has joined #lisp 01:03:36 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@187.114.112.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:03:57 Fare: And, yes, I am aware that most tags -don't- show up that way on SBCL, but the unbound-marker does. 01:04:09 (At least, it does on x86.) 01:05:52 186 is the unbound marker for cmucl. It would be nice to have to annotated as such. 01:06:39 For sparc, I added some annotation around pseudo-atomic allocation to indicate the tag being stored and the words being allocated. 01:06:51 Er, number of words. 01:06:57 My tree is at http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/shortlog/refs/heads/x86oid-disassembler-fixes the commit that got me that unbound-marker is "x86: Display referenced immediate constants..." 01:07:18 -!- navigator [~navigator@p54897915.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:07:44 -!- rme [rme@clozure-12127D16.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 01:07:44 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-87-127.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 01:07:45 Also works for fixnums, characters, et cetera. 01:08:22 How do you distinguish random constants versus tags? 01:08:34 I don't. 01:08:47 If it can be interpreted as a valid object, it will be. 01:09:12 That said, I'm quite happy with the verification done by MAKE-LISP-OBJ these days. 01:10:37 (Especially since I made it happen for cheneygc as well instead of just for gencgc.) 01:10:43 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:56 Hum. Am I the only one not liking how DO stops looping when its end-test is true? Seems to me the more usual and "intuitive" (yes, I realize it's arbitrary in the end) way would be for it to *continue* looping while the test is true... I guess it's just an unfortunate backward-compatibility consideration from forgotten times? 01:11:27 Hexstream: Actually, you're the only one using DO. 01:12:10 I never used it either. But now that I'm banning LOOP I'm considering using more of the rest of the language ;P 01:12:27 *rtoym* uses DO. 01:12:48 nyef: paste annotated with sparc allocation notes. 01:12:54 banning loop? 01:12:55 Well, I'm not banning LOOP completely, but I won't use it in the majority of cases I would have used it in before. 01:13:17 Oh, sweet. 01:13:26 nyef: Anyway, getting the tags is cool along with other constants. 01:14:11 Yeah, I don't actually get the tags. The only reason the unbound-marker comes through is that it's one of the immediates that make-lisp-obj will create. 01:14:13 phadthai: "Banning" in the sense that I will clear my codebases of it almost completely and won't use it anymore except in rare cases. 01:14:52 I'm not a big fan of loop, but even I'm not that anal about removing loop. 01:15:14 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:15:42 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:16:10 Wow. There's a -lot- of stuff left to do on SBCL's disassembler, then. 01:16:12 Thanks! 01:18:16 No prob. I should steal your constant printer. 01:18:48 Have at. :-) 01:19:14 I did that when adding gencgc because things were breaking and I got tired of having to look up everything all the time. 01:19:18 -!- tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:aa:7f56:b85b:157c] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:19:57 I'm actually getting really tired of the whole debug experience, especially when things break during cold-init. 01:19:58 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:20:04 I should add the header word stuff to x86. 01:21:11 Yeah, that's not much fun. No debugger, no printer, no repl, right? Just good old gdb. If you're lucky. 01:21:20 I should be so lucky. 01:21:30 Then again, gdb isn't that useful either. 01:22:14 Obnoxiously often, it's LDB again, with the system already having -discarded- a signal context or something. 01:22:26 And/or the backtrace being unusuable, et cetera. 01:22:37 I never got gdb to work with cmucl and darwin. Signals mess things up completely. Debugging gencgc on darwin/ppc was really messy. 01:22:43 MB_MB [Constant_R@64.220.221.166.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:08 No, wait. That was debugging tracing on darwin/ppc and darwin/x86. 01:23:20 *nyef* shudders. 01:23:34 Darwin? Good old unreliable-breakpoints darwin? 01:24:09 Wha tis this? 01:24:12 I'm rather glad that the worst of the gencgc bring-up was already over with by the time I got my PPC. 01:24:32 MB_MB: SIGTRAP on darwin is unreliable. 01:24:54 What's the recommended way to deal with cases where the init-form and step-form are identical but pretty big in a DO clause? 1. Copy/paste? 2. #1= #1#? Lift that in a flet? 01:25:21 Yes. My problem was that I couldn't run under gdb. I had to print something from C, put a sleep, go to another window with gdb and attach. Do some debugging, remember to detach, and continue to the next message, where I'd attach again. And if I forgot, I would have to start all over. Yay! 01:25:38 (forgot to insert 3. before the last option). Btw I'm not interested in "just don't use DO" answers ;P 01:25:47 Hexstream: List-splicing is rarely-to-never a good idea in source code. 01:26:10 I think the one time I've used it was in a macro, and that was a very special case. 01:26:55 So what would you recommend instead? 01:27:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:27:15 Option 4: Rethink why my DO has to do that. 01:27:16 One of the other two options. 01:27:27 Okay, other three options. 01:28:07 wow, you guys are code talkers.... 01:28:14 I need help with learning something new 01:28:42 Uh...? I thought by "list-splicing" you meant #1= #1#... I thought that was weird terminology. 01:29:20 It probably is weird terminology... But it's also obviously splicing a list together at read-time. 01:29:57 Well, you said you recommended one of the other 3 options, but list-splicing was one of those options... 01:30:09 What did rtoym say? 01:30:18 Ohh. 01:30:21 My bad. 01:30:58 MB_MB: ? 01:31:05 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:31:09 yeah 01:31:45 Is there a way to assign a default function argument as a function that gets eval'd upon being called? 01:32:28 vsbuffalo: ... I can't parse that. Perhaps you could explain in more detail? 01:32:30 vsbuffalo: What? 01:32:47 vsbuffalo: i don't understand the "gets eval'd upon being called" bit. or the "assign a default function argument as a function bit", though i have a guess about that. 01:32:51 vsbuffalo: What function doesn't get evaluated upon being called?.. 01:32:56 MB_MB: well, you didn't explain what you wanted to learn... 01:32:58 vsbuffalo: optional arguments are evaluated at runtime. 01:33:10 sorry, that was unclear... 01:33:31 I mean this - I have a function that returns a list, and I'd like to make that the default value for a function argument 01:33:45 so it becomes an optional parameter 01:34:15 (defun foo (&optional (arg (make-default-list)) ...) 01:34:17 tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:48a:fbfc:b85b:157c] has joined #lisp 01:34:18 Maybe. 01:34:24 actually, is it as simple as (defun func (a b &optional (this (default-returning-func))) 01:34:27 what is this thing we are dealing with now? 01:34:37 thansk rtoym, and others 01:35:07 I was attacked with helpful responses, thanks all :-) 01:36:41 MB_MB: This isn't called #lisp for nothing. 01:37:02 I'm confused, what is Lisp.... 01:37:16 This is something new how do i learn it..... 01:37:27 I'm confused, what is a Troll? 01:37:28 is MB_MB a bot? 01:38:21 MB_MB is not a bot! MB_MB is a simple extraction of evident brain cells 01:38:38 minion: Are you a bot? 01:38:40 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 01:39:40 Google is your friend. 01:40:04 Confirm a learning arrangement? --MB_MB-- 01:40:29 MB_MB: go away. 01:40:57 "Xach: Tough on grease!" 01:40:58 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-006.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:41:16 *nyef* notes that he has proof-of-concept samples for a couple of parts for a debugger for lisp processes. 01:41:19 MB_MB will be obliged to leave the channel. But may I stay and conversate!? 01:41:28 No. Fuck off. 01:41:58 MB_MB departing.... 01:42:04 -!- MB_MB [Constant_R@64.220.221.166.ptr.us.xo.net] has left #lisp 01:42:11 jennyf [~jennyf@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 01:43:12 -!- jennyf [~jennyf@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 01:43:30 nyef: you know what's really much cooler to debug? a compiler that doesn't live incestually with the programs it compiles. 01:44:23 Oh, wouldn't -that- be nice? 01:44:35 pkhuong, now you're talking nonsense. 01:45:02 pkhuong, what else, a build system that doesn't live incestually with the programs it compiles? 01:45:37 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 01:45:57 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:09 Actually, what else is an SBCL that produces trace-files on every compile, and a debugger that can sync up the code in the machine to the trace-file. 01:46:16 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:46:30 (Unlikely, I know.) 01:46:35 -!- brandlee [~brandlee@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: brandlee] 01:46:49 are nested lets frowned upon? 01:48:08 vsbuffalo: if too many of them, see fare-utils:with-nesting 01:48:41 perfect, thanks Fare 01:49:00 vsbuffalo: let* might be handy... 01:49:22 (hmm. You probably already know this.) 01:49:23 Hexstream, yea I was just recalling that from PCL... I think that may reduce the depth quite a bit 01:49:42 no, it had slipped my mind. I'm relatively new to common lisp 01:49:51 Ok. 01:50:48 already getting "why the fuck doesn't everyone use this" mentality though... probably not good, considering support is small at my workplace 01:51:22 That's more support than you'll get virtually anywhere. 01:52:39 at least clojure is generating new interest... maybe some folks freaked out by the JVM will come to common lisp 01:53:38 *p_l|uni* sometimes is tempted to go back to Rails, though 01:54:07 BLASPHEMY!! 01:54:52 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55:01 PHP FTW! 01:55:08 I mean, Applesoft BASIC! 01:55:11 btw, is there anything I can read regarding introspection of complex types in CL? i.e. not only finding that the object is an integer, but also gettting that it's (integer 0 3) and similar 01:55:26 *Fare* tests ASDF before to release 2.132 01:55:49 p_l|uni: what's that supposed to mean? 01:56:08 ... and fails. I mean succeeds at finding a bug. 01:56:38 There's no builtin function for that... But it's trivial: (and (typep possible-int 'integer) (> integer 0) (< integer 3)) 01:56:42 pkhuong: basically, I want to write an ORM that can decode the more complex types (including AND, OR etc.) and use that in db logic 01:57:01 I mean possible-int, not integer... 01:57:02 p_l|uni: it's all just sexps. 01:57:51 pkhuong: Even after compilation etc? that is, can I grab an object and "walk" its type? 01:58:08 p_l|uni: Uhhh. You can get a type back to (and one-type another-type) from a value... 01:59:00 p_l|uni: What's the type of this: '("my one-item list")? 01:59:10 Is it CONS or LIST? 01:59:47 p_l|uni: that's meaningless. No object has one type. 01:59:56 And what's 0? An INTEGER or a FIXNUM or an (integer 0 12) or a bit?... 01:59:59 pkhuong: ok, thanks for clarification 02:01:22 *Hexstream* has a flashback of asking why ALISTP doesn't exist. 02:01:59 btw - if you're interested why I am asking... imagine building a software developement tool for non-programmers who might not be techies at all 02:02:45 You want to roll your own Microsoft Access? 02:03:01 Hexstream: *EXACTLY 02:03:14 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:18 with certain differences, of course, but that's the spirit 02:03:39 Eh. Well, have fun with the debilitating support calls. 02:04:13 Hexstream: that's a long way from now... 02:05:23 There's no reason that alistp doesn't exist, given listp, except for frequency of utility. 02:06:10 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.149.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:06:11 *nyef* points out that an alistp with the same level of discernment as listp would -be- listp. 02:06:13 on project's "vague todo list" is 1) simplified lisp dialect (actually compiling into CL) 2) DB integration for it 3) Web "GUI" system 4) IDE 02:07:46 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.193.115] has joined #lisp 02:07:56 p_l|uni: bah, I just wrote the storage and query engine I needed instead of integrating one with lisp (granted, my current needs are ... peculiar) 02:08:02 Zhivago: Is '((a 1) (b 2)) an alist or a list or a tree?... 02:08:55 Hexstream: true. 02:09:28 I learned my lesson ;P 02:09:33 pkhuong: the thing is that I want to make the "simple" variant as integrated and "flowing together" as possible. And at the same time, I need to have the code easily understandable by the IDE in various weird ways (so the "simple" mode doesn't allow for modifying readtables for example and doesn't have #.) 02:10:54 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:10:55 p_l|uni: k, so you're clearly looking to make a DSL. (Domain-specific language) 02:13:10 Along with a VM to interpret it, and a compiler and debugger, editor support and all the rest ;P I made quite a few DSL's but haven't quite gotten around to the other aspects yet. 02:13:11 Hexstream: the "simple" lisp is basically a package which exports a set of symbols used in place of CL: ones, with sourcecode read with custom readtable. The difference from CL is going to be mostly simplification of various stuff - full CL is just around the corner when needed 02:13:19 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:13:33 so... I have VM, Debugger, Compiler, etc. :P 02:13:36 -!- leo2007 [~leo@117.28.22.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:13:58 SWANK isn't really going to notice a difference :P 02:14:39 Okay, fun as all this has been, I needs must at least -pretend- to try and get some sleep. 02:14:42 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-56-192.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:15:23 If you make a sufficiently high-level language with semantics different from Common Lisp, your stack traces will be a mess if you have no tool support (VM, high-level debugger) for your language. 02:15:51 Hexstream: the thing is, it's not going to be much *semantically* different from CL 02:16:25 Ok. So you'll just make a simple embedded DSL. 02:16:56 it's just that a person that doesn't deal with programming at all might be less scared of a hand-holded, "restricted" subset which got the necessary bits he/she/it needs included 02:18:44 What's the proper way, if any, to achieve this effect (where one slot depends on another for initialization)? http://paste.lisp.org/display/115090 02:19:14 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:37 Hexstream: the unfunny thing is that I have, so far, completely no chances of dropping everything else and working with a team full time on it :/ 02:20:15 (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((object my-class) &key needed-value) (setf (slot-value object 'dependent) (compute-stuff needed-value))) 02:22:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115090#1 02:22:36 Ahh, thanks 02:28:18 -!- drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:28:28 rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:40 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 02:29:57 How can I create an (unsigned-byte 64)? I'm trying to satisfy an arg in a CFFI call to xlib but getting tripped up by this type for some reason. 02:32:29 Demosthenes [~demo@65.242.219.13] has joined #lisp 02:32:46 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:37:38 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 02:39:41 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:31 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 02:46:19 ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:46:19 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:34 dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has joined #lisp 03:00:19 minion: memo for Xach: I've pushed what I think is a fix for the chipz stack overflow problem. please try it out and let me know if it works (or point me to test case files) 03:00:19 Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks. 03:10:43 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:11:54 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:10 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 03:13:31 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Client Quit] 03:15:23 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:15:33 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:34 -!- tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:48a:fbfc:b85b:157c] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:20:34 Fare: Ah, sweet. I've been dreaming of a macro like WITH-NESTING forever. I thought about something like that way back, 4 years ago, but I never came up with a syntax and implementation that would make sense. I was always stumbling on the fact that, for example, let has 1 form before the body but destructuring-bind has 2. I just never thought of the elegant solution you've used. This could come handy when the nesting really goes 03:22:00 In fact, the reason why I got attracted to metabang-bind for about 2 days (before deciding I don't like at all after all) was that you can mix many binding forms without nesting. 03:23:37 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-zqcfbjmwrtfaxplt] has joined #lisp 03:23:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-zqcfbjmwrtfaxplt] has quit [Changing host] 03:23:37 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:26:46 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:30:08 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:30:28 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 03:31:20 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 03:31:53 happydude [~me@c73wn1.wifi.halden.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:35 I read that in lisp everything is a list somewhere, then I read that everything it's all function. What is it? 03:33:04 hohoho [~hohoho@p039b58.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:33:07 happydude: neither. Everything is an object. ;-) 03:33:25 wow, like integers and scope and stuff too? 03:34:12 Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "scope and stuff". But otherwise, yeah. However, when I say "everything is an object" I may or may not be using "object" in the way you may be understanding it. 03:34:19 never mind, you was kidding. It was funny though:D 03:34:37 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:34:38 that is so zen 03:34:38 Well, I wasn't kidding. But "object" is a highly overloaded term. 03:34:40 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.165.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:34:53 so is function:P 03:35:14 Yes, but slightly less so. 03:35:58 but, seriously, what is lisp everything of? 03:36:06 bits? 03:36:26 what is the immutable basis of the list system? 03:36:46 What is the immutable basis of C? or Java? Or Python? 03:37:50 those are "allpurpose", hybrid, the-right-tool-for-the-job languages. Not comparable to the zen of lambda! 03:38:12 They are "practical". 03:38:22 happydude: mostly here we talk about Common Lisp which is the all-purpose, hybrid, the-right-tool-for-the-job lisp. 03:38:38 minion: tell happydude about PCL 03:38:38 happydude: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 03:38:40 i understand 03:39:10 I hate when people tell me to read stuff. I don't read all that well. 03:39:42 Mostly I was pointing out that Common Lisp is potentially a "practical" language. 03:40:22 ok. 03:41:40 happydude: PCL also happens to be probably the only newer book that takes a rather "no nonsense" approach to common lisp so you're not drowning in theory :P 03:41:53 you are a lisp-apologetic. Its like a christian saying that it is all about faith, and not that it is absolutely correct because god said so in the fairytale. 03:42:20 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zkgowubohctwbjsq] has joined #lisp 03:42:59 happydude: Lisp got f*ckton of bad myths and some of us got used to having to correct them (because you're trying to sell something based on it, for example). 03:43:02 i like that. I have tried, but I still don't get lambda calculus. Guessing that it is important in lisp. 03:43:16 Not really. 03:43:25 You just need to understand lexical closures. 03:43:31 happydude: outside of some really fringe recognition, I have no idea about lambda calculus at all :-) 03:43:55 (I do grasp closures, but I didn't learn it through calculus) 03:43:56 I do take advantage of closures in javascript. 03:44:07 Then you should have no problem doing the same in CL. 03:44:40 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:44:45 I like the idea that the syntax has no bs. 03:45:16 Well, that's always a matter of opinion. 03:45:37 in lisp I mean. I am very found of parenthesis. 03:45:59 Is 10e3 a symbol or a number? How about 10q3? 03:46:27 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:46:27 Yeah. I think the punctuation in lisp is nice. 03:46:44 But in terms of syntax, it's all very ad hoc. 03:47:10 you are thinking about special forms? 03:47:12 happydude: don't worry. Zhivago thinks pretty much everything is ad hoc. It's not that bad. 03:48:00 happy: Well, let's consider a form like (a b 10e3 c) <- what does it mean? 03:48:06 is there a lisp variant without special forms 03:48:31 a( b, 10e3, c ) 03:48:52 What if that form is inside a macrolet? 03:49:06 What if it is in an unevaluated position in an enclosing form? 03:49:07 Zhivago: What would you prefer? 03:49:17 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:49:32 The answer is that you cannot say what (a b 10e3 c) means without considering all context. 03:49:42 What if the evaluation model where every program consists of nested lists is "wrong"? 03:50:00 giga: I think it's fine -- it's the misattribution of this as being simple that I dislike. 03:50:25 giga: I think that lisp syntax is very complex with a nice and simple delineation. 03:50:37 well said! 03:50:50 Well, simple is a big blob in a multi-dimensional space. In some noticible dimensions Lisp's syntax is simpler than that of other languages. 03:51:02 Yeah, in terms of punctuation. :) 03:51:31 I think that lisp is more or less like a well punctuated natural language in terms of syntactic complexity. 03:52:05 (Where the punctuation delineates most subclauses) 03:53:07 I think it is about what is implisit and what is explisit, when comparing formal to natrual language. 03:53:42 and stuff 03:57:20 *p_l|uni* found automatically-indented lisp source to be possibly the most clear syntax he can provide to non-technical users, so... 04:00:36 I have to say, I do find Python's syntax quite readable though I hate to edit it. 04:01:24 Whereas Lisp I love to edit but sometimes I don't like how it looks. 04:01:36 gigamonkey: it was partially my inspiration, though that example of Lisp S-Expr colored in blocks with invisible parens was bigger 04:02:39 -!- happydude [~me@c73wn1.wifi.halden.net] has quit [Quit: Time to hit the sack.] 04:04:12 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-101-243.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:02 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:08:43 gigamonkey: my latest pet peeve is all of the clojurians' obsessions with the "thrush" operator so all of the code is (-> ...) or (--> ...) 04:08:57 slyrus_: what does it do? 04:10:06 burtdirt [~karim@c-24-91-30-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:59 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 04:11:22 sorry, the second should be (->> ...) 04:11:43 and they basically "thread" the forms through each other 04:12:23 such that (-> 3 inc -) returns -4 04:12:35 shorthand for (- (inc 3)) 04:12:48 I think it helps java programmers read clojure code 04:13:37 Can you give a more interesting example? 04:15:09 I.e. (defun -> (arg &rest operators) (reduce (lambda (x y) (funcall y x)) operators :initial-value arg)) ? 04:16:42 except that it's done with macros so that things that can't be funcalled like that still work, but yeah 04:16:45 -!- dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has quit [Quit: dreish] 04:16:48 slyrus_: I'd say it looks more like infatuation with Haskell 04:16:55 (and some things that can be funcalled don't work) 04:17:24 p_l|uni: yeah, perhaps 04:17:44 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zpaottttkfxlqcgs] has joined #lisp 04:17:49 slyrus_: cause even the syntax resembles the do from Haskell a little 04:18:47 -!- burtdirt [~karim@c-24-91-30-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:19:09 Zhivago: ok, here: (->> "[Na+].[O-]c1ccccc1" smiles/read-smiles-string bonds (map (comp names atoms))) 04:19:48 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zkgowubohctwbjsq] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:20:18 basically you can just take any code of the form (f (g (h x)) and rewrite it as (->> x h g f) 04:20:24 and some people find that more readable, I guess 04:21:07 Makes composing extra filters easier. 04:21:17 yes, perhaps 04:21:45 *p_l|uni* has a reader macro for that kind of stuff 04:22:11 and if you have an aversion to parentheses (and use vim, eclipse or textmate instead of emacs/paredit) but decide to dive into clojure, i guess it seems kinda neat 04:22:46 Well, reading it as "shove x through h, then g, then f" makes sense to me. 04:23:20 yes, but _I'm_ used to reading that written as (f (g (h x))) 04:23:31 :) 04:28:20 benny [~benny@i577A1C82.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:28:42 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:29:16 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 630 seconds] 04:31:23 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.1.68] has joined #lisp 04:33:40 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.75.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:34:32 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 04:36:12 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:52 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 04:39:50 slyrus_: in your example above is (map (comp names atoms)) some sort of Curried expression? 04:40:44 -> macroexpands that to (map (comp names atoms) ...) 04:40:52 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:53 um ->> does that anyway 04:41:24 there's one that does (f @args x) and one form that does (f x @args) 04:41:26 in effect 04:41:27 So it fills in the '...' with whatever is returned by 'bonds', in the example you gave. 04:41:35 yeah 04:42:32 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.64.242.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 04:45:39 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@65.242.219.13] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:46:09 *p_l|uni* goes home for a while - it's too late to go to sleep, but not too late to cook something to eat :) 04:47:04 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: afk] 04:47:55 Good morning everyone! 04:47:56 -!- phadthai [mmondor@66.11.161.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:48:00 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:01 Morning, beach. 04:48:27 howdy beach 04:48:30 morning :D 04:48:43 i went to bed at 7pm last night, due to being a bit tired 04:48:49 feels very good to wake up after that 04:49:43 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 04:52:05 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has joined #lisp 05:00:30 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:05:22 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 05:07:38 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:13:41 and whaddy know... abcl picks up some bugs in cl-bio that sbcl was happy to let slide 05:13:50 s/whaddy/whaddya/ 05:14:04 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 05:15:23 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-38.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:20:06 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 05:22:24 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:26:23 dberg [~user@c-98-234-179-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:37 hrmm... abcl doesn't seem to like the defpackage hackery in cl-bio after all 05:30:58 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:33:02 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 619 seconds] 05:37:28 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.64.242.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:42:36 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:45:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-38.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:45:33 timor [~timor@port-92-195-232-213.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 05:49:52 -!- dberg [~user@c-98-234-179-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:51:53 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:54:31 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:55:31 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:55:34 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:55:41 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 05:56:10 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 05:59:08 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-217-36-187.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:59:52 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@124-148-41-166.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:00:08 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 06:01:28 cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has joined #lisp 06:03:06 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:03:16 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 06:05:26 beach: have you ever tried flexichain with abcl? 06:06:40 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-142-120.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:06:45 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-142-120.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:15:07 mgr [~mgr@newbox.phinn.de] has joined #lisp 06:15:14 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 06:15:50 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 612 seconds] 06:22:36 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 06:23:02 slyrus_: No I haven't. Is there a problem? 06:23:10 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 06:23:23 well, there is for me, but it could be something I'm doing wrong. works in sbcl though. 06:23:28 i'll dig into it tomorrow. 06:23:50 OK 06:25:52 (loop for i from 0 to 10 do (format t "~%i: ~A" i) finally (return i)) will return 11, is there a way to make it return without doing the last increment? 06:26:42 (return (1- 1)) 06:26:47 (return (1- i)) 06:26:58 That won't stop the last iteration though 06:27:09 (loop for i from 0 below 10 do ...) 06:27:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:27:13 which is what I really want (because I am calculating values taken form a list) 06:27:22 and I am doing things with side effects 06:27:33 wait, the side effects won't happen during the last iteration 06:27:47 might be able to works this out.. strange behaviour of loop though 06:27:53 Not at all. 06:28:32 ... to 10 means (when (> i 10) (go loop-finish)) 06:30:58 hmm seems to work as I thought it would with (loop for i in '(1 2 3 4 5) do (something i) finally (return i)) 06:31:10 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-8-171.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:32:02 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:32:19 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-5-201.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:32:25 ok 06:32:32 ok 06:32:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:32:56 iterating over both a list and a number will make it not do the last iteration 06:33:46 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-232-213.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:34:10 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:34:24 eg (loop for i in '(0 1 2 3 4 5) for j from 0 to 5 do (format t "~%i: ~A, j: ~A" i j) finally (return (list i j))) will print 1 1, 2 2, .. 5, 5 and return (5 5) 06:34:36 which is the behaviour I want :) 06:34:41 Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:41 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:34:41 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 06:35:59 beach: I guess it is all consistent if you know that ... to 10 means (when (> i 10) (go loop-finish)), but before I knew that I was in natural-language mode 06:36:02 and then it felt unnatural 06:40:30 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:40:38 good morning 06:44:01 beach: here's the error 06:44:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115094 06:45:44 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 06:48:00 timor [~timor@port-92-195-23-103.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:48:22 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:49:08 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 06:49:10 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-5-201.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:51:24 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ntuhgvqpzblymlku] has joined #lisp 06:52:21 hohoho_ [~hohoho@p021285.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:53:12 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:45 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p039b58.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:54:31 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 06:55:33 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:56:13 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-5-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:57:05 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:57:46 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-56-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:58:35 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 619 seconds] 06:59:07 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:00:22 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:12 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 07:02:01 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-203-164.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:03:12 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-23-103.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:03:26 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:05:36 ost``` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 07:05:36 -!- ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:10:13 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:12:09 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:12:22 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:01 I think the problem is that: (array-element-type (map '(vector (unsigned-byte 4)) #'identity #(0 1 2 3))) returns (unsigned-byte 8) on abcl 07:13:12 umm... that's not supposed to be a smiley with shades 07:13:36 it sends the text through fine, it's just your client showing the smiley 07:14:29 hrm... (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 4)) is t 07:14:30 slyrus_: don't other CL implementations do that too? 07:14:46 sbcl says: (UNSIGNED-BYTE 4) 07:14:51 which is what I expected/wanted 07:15:09 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:20 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-140-105.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 07:15:36 ABCL (currently) only has specialized arrays for unsigned-byte 8, 16 and 32 and signed-byte 16 and 32 07:16:20 ah, perhaps the problem is that flexichain is lying about what it's type really is then 07:16:30 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zpaottttkfxlqcgs] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:16:36 it told me I had a flexichain of unsigned-byte 4 when that type doesn't exist 07:17:00 timor [~timor@port-92-195-36-168.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:01 slyrus_: abcl supports - i believe - all byte-width streams from 1 to 32 07:18:07 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 07:18:16 spiaggia [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:18:18 but not in arrays 07:18:22 Good morning everyone! 07:18:24 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-180-201-14.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:18:31 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:39 ehu: (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 4)) is T in abcl 07:19:01 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 07:19:02 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-203-164.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:20:44 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has joined #lisp 07:20:56 slyrus_: right. ABCL actually only has specialized vectors 07:21:03 not specialized arrays 07:21:13 ah, ok 07:21:30 arrays it has unsigned-byte 8 and 32 07:22:04 I guess upgraded-array-elment-type doesn't know how to handle the difference in supported types. 07:22:06 ok, so flexichain should probably check the upgraded type then 07:22:27 spiaggia: you follow that? 07:22:32 Sort of. 07:22:41 I can 07:22:41 What in flexichain depends on the upgraded element type? 07:22:44 that, or we should support flexichain by adding more supported specialized types 07:23:10 ehu: Flexichain takes an :element-type keyword for creation. 07:23:36 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:23:52 ehu: Oh, you are saying ABCL should have more specialized types? 07:24:02 spiaggia: insert-vector* checks the type of the flexichain array and the the vector that is being inserted 07:24:37 Oh! I think Athas added that. 07:24:50 brandlee [~brandlee@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 07:27:08 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 07:27:10 slyrus_: It only checks the type to see that it is compatible. How is that a problem? 07:27:37 flexichain creates arrays or vectors? 07:27:43 vectors 07:27:49 because to get the vector to insert I do: (map '(vector (unsigned-byte 4)) ...) 07:27:57 but unfortunately 07:28:07 (array-element-type (map '(vector (unsigned-byte 4)) #'identity #(0 1 2 3))) 07:28:15 is (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) 07:28:31 right. that looks like an error in map, doesn't it? 07:28:43 which is incompatible with what flexichain thinks its type for its vector is, which is in fact really T! 07:28:51 s/vector/array/ 07:29:09 No, that looks plausible for map to do that. 07:29:57 Array-element-type is the type of the element that the class of the array uses. 07:30:09 I take that back... the flexichain really is of type (unsigned-byte 8), as is the vector I'm trying to insert 07:30:23 So what's the problem? 07:30:29 the problem is that we aren't checking against the real type of flexichain's buffer, but rather what I asked for the type to be 07:30:34 which is (unsigned-byte 4) 07:30:44 tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:00 Oh, so ABCL array-element-type doesn't answer with the upgraded element type? 07:31:09 no, it does 07:31:15 we're not checking against that! 07:31:29 (array-element-type (slot-value (bio::residues q) 'flexichain::buffer)) != (array-element-type (slot-value (bio::residues q) 'flexichain::buffer)) 07:31:35 wait, sorry 07:31:53 (array-element-type (slot-value (bio::residues q) 'flexichain::buffer)) != (slot-value (bio::residues q) 'flexichain::element-type) 07:32:19 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-238-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:33:01 Oh, I see. Flexichain should not keep track of the element type that was asked for. 07:33:52 It should just check against the real element type of its vector. 07:33:56 yeah, but we can't just use the upgraded-array-element-type because ABCL handles arrays and vectors differently and: 07:34:00 upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 4)) is T 07:34:23 but 07:34:38 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-36-168.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:34:39 (array-element-type (make-array 4 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 4))) is (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) 07:34:52 but we can ask whether the element(s) to insert are of a subtype of the element-type of the flexichain vector. 07:34:57 exactly 07:35:45 clhs: UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE 07:35:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm 07:35:50 Or you could ask if they're a subtype of the type the flexichain vector was specified to use. 07:35:55 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:36:07 no, that's what we were trying to do before 07:36:09 (Rather than whatever the implementation of the vector uses) 07:36:10 so, just remove the element-type slot, and replace references to it by (array-element-type buffer) 07:36:42 Zhivago: I think that is what we are currently doing, and that doesn't work. 07:37:37 Zhivago: the problem is that user code asks ABCL for an array of the specified type (but it's really upgraded to something else) and then hands that off to flexichain which punts because the upgraded array type isn't a subtype of what we originally tried to make the flexichain of 07:37:46 sorry for the awkward late night english 07:38:20 I'm not sure that ABCL is doing the right thing wrt upgraded-array-element-type there in that the snippet at the bottom of that clhs page doesn't work right here 07:38:27 slyrus: Right, so if you remember the original type, you can test that the elements you're inserting are a subtype of that, which will preserve user intent and also fix whatever it got upgraded to. 07:38:41 slyrus: The only issue would be overhead. 07:38:55 s/fix/fit/ 07:39:10 Zhivago: sort of. only if you remember not the original type we asked for when making the flexichain, but rather what the lisp gave us back 07:39:24 or we're back to the problem of ub8 not being a subtype of ub4 07:40:29 oh, you want to test element by element? bah 07:41:58 Well, I'm not sure why you're checking in the first place, so ... 07:43:24 Right. We could just attempt to insert them and see if that works. 07:43:30 spiaggia thanks Athas added some sanity checks there. I say drop the sanity checking and let setf throw an error if it's going to 07:43:36 ah, what spiaggia said 07:44:25 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-64-102.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:45 You might leave them as an option. 07:44:59 have you reported the issue to abcl guys? 07:44:59 nikodemus, memo from joshe: the timer tests all pass for me on OpenBSD now 07:44:59 nikodemus, memo from nyef: http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/shortlog/refs/heads/x86oid-disassembler-fixes has a small pile of disassembler fixes, for both x86 and x86-64. I'm thinking to commit them this weekend, but wouldn't mind feedback beforehand. 07:45:16 whee! 07:45:30 What was abcl doing strangely with vectors? 07:45:49 slyrus_: And insert-vector* should probably use REPLACE. 07:46:11 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan1002.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:23 I think CL would have been simpler with separate subtypep and subclassp. 07:47:21 Zhivago: The way I read the spec is that upgraded-array-element-type must give the right answer for both vectors and arrays, and that seems to exclude having a specialized vector and not a specialized array. 07:48:56 -!- xavieran_ [~xavieran@ppp118-209-81-14.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:49:04 timor [~timor@port-92-195-58-14.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:49:17 spiaggia: ok. send that finding to the armedbear-devel mailing list. We can probably do something about it. 07:49:20 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-81-14.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:49:40 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-238-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:50:47 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:50:56 ehu: That would have to wait. I need to go teach a class in a few minutes. 07:51:15 spiaggia: (vector x) is the same as (array x (*)) is the constraint that requires that. 07:51:44 This is another good example of where type upgrading is the brain-damaged bastard of confusing types and classes. 07:52:06 Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:03 It's only a problem because the types are defined to be identical, but the question is really about classes. 07:55:32 abcl implements different underlying classes. that's why we're not getting the right answers now. 07:57:55 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 08:00:07 And that's perfectly reasonable. 08:00:39 The stupidity is because CL requires you to ask about those classes via type names that are constrained to be equivalent. 08:02:10 spiaggia: I think we can't use replace because we can wrap around back to 0, right? 08:02:21 xavieran_ [~xavieran@ppp118-209-81-14.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:39 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-81-14.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:05 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-31-105.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:03:13 s/can't/can't simply/ 08:03:20 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-148-41-166.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:03:24 but it could be done 08:03:35 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@124-148-41-166.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:03:41 Jabberwockey [~jens@d105232.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 08:04:06 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 08:04:21 minion memo for tcr I'm adding your enhancement request from ticket #88 (lisp-compiled-function-p) to abcl now. 08:04:46 hmm. I never get that right. I'll just mail the guy. 08:06:20 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-58-14.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:07:29 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:10 uffi page down? 08:09:25 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 08:09:33 I need uffi for cl-ncurses :'( 08:11:51 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-140-105.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:12:50 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-101-243.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:19:18 timor [~timor@port-92-195-89-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:19:42 angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 08:19:44 -!- angavrilov_ is now known as angavrilov 08:20:26 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-31-105.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:20:28 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:22:26 maus [~maus@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:43 Good morning! :) 08:25:41 Good afternoon :-D 08:26:36 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-61-122.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:43 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:29:38 aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:36:41 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-89-167.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:38:58 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan1002.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:42:46 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.107.228] has joined #lisp 08:50:12 maetbag [~user@2.94.53.14] has joined #lisp 08:50:45 timor [~timor@port-92-195-36-131.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:18 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 08:54:55 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan1002.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:55 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan1002.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:55:16 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan1002.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 08:58:10 vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:37 Good morning! 08:59:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 09:00:09 -!- SCVirus [~B234651@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:00:40 azathoth99 [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:57 how do lispers handle code distribution in big environments? 09:01:13 is thsi asdf thing scriptable? 09:01:14 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 09:01:24 or do you just push giant lisp function file and load it? 09:03:04 azathoth99: what do you mean by "code distribution in big environments"? 09:03:17 Zhivago: so, the conclusion is that ABCL should add the additional array classes. 09:04:58 azathoth99: if mean "how do you install your server on a farm", i think making an executable is the most common option 09:07:00 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-36-131.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:08:48 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:01 like say you have 8 webservers behind a vip 09:09:08 you update website 09:09:22 I never used the asdf etc 09:09:34 and barely have laoded by owns defs from life 09:09:38 into a clisp image 09:10:24 barely loaded? 09:10:25 was reading some paul graham who said he fixed somethign for customer while they on the phone 09:10:28 wow 09:10:37 well havent done much lisp 09:10:41 and esp not lately 09:10:56 last year during tutorial was loading definitions from text file on unix 09:11:05 then all functions available 09:11:09 I had defined 09:12:41 available where? 09:13:15 in the running clisp 09:13:39 oh, sounds cool 09:13:49 what else did you learn? 09:13:50 to avoid confusion: clisp is a specific implementation. cl is the language 09:14:46 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 09:15:18 yes I know 09:15:29 little about set vs setq 09:15:35 ercursion 09:15:44 I find it hard to use lisp to manipualte file on unix 09:15:52 are lisps facilites there ok? 09:15:58 as a unix admin I am used to bash 09:16:25 you can sure execute bash scripts from lisp 09:17:42 that should make you one happy lisper 09:18:22 nooo 09:18:39 azathoth99: what is it you want to do? 09:18:45 use lisp facilities 09:18:51 to do what? 09:19:06 make a forum 09:19:17 and what is the problem? 09:19:37 real unix admins use bash to make forums 09:19:43 don't know enuf lisp or hunchentoot 09:19:58 minion: tell azathoth99 about pcl-book 09:19:58 azathoth99: look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:20:00 well i could instrall a lamp one 09:20:06 read that to get started 09:20:18 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@23.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:20:30 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:31 k 09:20:32 then you know enough lisp, and hunchentoot has its own documentation 09:20:40 thx 09:20:56 -!- azathoth99 [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:21:23 timor [~timor@port-92-195-70-140.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:05 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:22:22 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C640.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:25 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 09:24:09 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Client Quit] 09:24:29 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 09:26:08 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 09:26:39 hello lispers 09:28:20 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75495f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:09 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:31:24 -!- brandlee [~brandlee@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:33:42 happy mailman day 09:33:52 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:34:25 indeed! 09:35:09 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-84-182.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:06 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-70-140.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:41:17 Xach: The next Lisp meeting in Hamburg is scheduled for 2010-11-24, again at 19:00 at the Ristorante Marilù. 09:41:25 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:41:51 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:42:43 scode_ [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 09:42:54 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:43:21 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:44:18 -!- Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:44:25 Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:15 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan1002.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:45:18 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:45:21 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:48:54 woo 09:48:55 Xach, memo from froydnj: I've pushed what I think is a fix for the chipz stack overflow problem. please try it out and let me know if it works (or point me to test case files) 09:50:36 timor [~timor@port-92-195-50-141.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:50:38 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:51:55 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-84-182.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:52:20 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:52:42 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 09:52:46 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:54:59 -!- tic [~tic@c83-249-196-184.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:56:38 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 09:57:12 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A83A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:04 tic [~tic@c83-249-196-184.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:02:43 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:02:58 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 10:04:32 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.65.168.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 10:05:35 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.109.186] has joined #lisp 10:07:34 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:09:05 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 10:09:17 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:09:39 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 10:17:24 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-191-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:17:33 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-191-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:08 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:46 tfb [~tfb@92.40.23.163.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:25:14 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:26:25 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-153-145.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:34:42 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 10:35:48 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-178-53.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:38:06 brandlee [~brandlee@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:38:42 Xach, hi 10:39:03 hi Xach 10:44:29 a generic question, I have a Django application which takes two different datasets from database and try to match them based on few defined rules (dataset == few million records) , if I try to rewrite the system in lisp and keeping the main dataset in memory, can it help at all as in speed of the execution ? 10:44:36 may be a stupid question 10:45:29 -!- brandlee [~brandlee@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: brandlee] 10:48:11 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 10:49:38 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 10:50:49 may not have an answer until you do it. 10:57:45 bougyman, ok :) 10:58:00 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:58:09 kushal: I had something like that. A query that took around 3-4 minutes on SQLite now takes less than a second. 10:58:11 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.65.168.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:00:15 That's probably an extreme case: the queries aren't well supported by SQL, so I had to copy almost everything lisp-side, and I can exploit sharing between thousands of tables to save a couple GBs. 11:02:04 pkhuong, here we are using mysql and it takes more than 10 hours on a decent desktop with 4GB RAM 11:05:00 really, it depends on your application, and, while using a good compiler can squeeze an order of magnitude or two, arranging your data to fit your queries (in my case, column-oriented storage, sharing of read-only columns and permutation vectors instead of actually permuting data) is where you'll get performance. 11:05:08 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-41-205.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 11:06:15 pkhuong, ok 11:09:06 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:03 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-56-192.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:48 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:27:18 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@88-196-152-75-wifi.est.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:29:00 urandom__ [~user@p548A4771.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:20 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 11:31:41 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:09 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:36:23 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:38:19 -!- hohoho_ [~hohoho@p021285.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:38:39 Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:39:02 why is the i18n/external-formats dir of the CVS version of cmucl also empty ? 11:39:57 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@88-196-152-75-wifi.est.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:40:01 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 11:40:15 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:40:38 Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan1002.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:18 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:41:35 mpasternacki [~user@chello080108072034.10.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:41:48 -!- mpasternacki [~user@chello080108072034.10.11.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 11:41:53 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:19 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:43:57 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:35 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:50:51 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:39 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.172] has joined #lisp 11:52:06 Blkt [~user@93-33-141-96.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:52:18 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:53:19 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:55:18 brandlee [~brandlee@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:56:57 I have a newbie question concerning the use of gsll, maybe one of you can help me with that 11:57:17 maybe 11:57:18 I'm trying to use the multi-dimensional-root-solver-fdf to minimize some function 11:57:24 with scalarsp set to false 11:57:54 so I have to supply functions that, when given pointers to arrays x, f and J, computes function values and corresponding jacobians and stores the results in the given array 11:58:05 using grid:gref, the routine works but only very slowly 11:58:15 using (time ) on my functions shows that they're doing alot of consing 11:58:28 I can circumvent that by allocating cl-arrays of type simple-array double-float, 11:58:36 setting them equal to (cl-array x) 11:58:45 and accessing the corresponding elements using aref 11:59:09 the problem is that this only works if I create the foreign-arrays manually and pass them on to my functions 11:59:13 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:59:14 if the functions are called by gsl, 11:59:23 then the cl-array slots all point to nil 11:59:43 it seems to me that this is supposed to be default behaviour for arrays created by libgsl 12:00:20 so, do you know some clean and efficient solution to that problem? 12:00:28 or maybe I'm simply misusing grid:gref? 12:04:29 Sebastian_Sturm: might want to discuss it with the author of gsll 12:04:43 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:04:59 yes, maybe I should try again later when he's online 12:05:42 -!- brandlee [~brandlee@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: brandlee] 12:06:03 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 12:08:19 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:49 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:11:02 Xach: When are you going to write QuickQi? 12:11:35 Quadrescence: probably 7 years after I start caring about Qi. 12:11:41 I have no schedule for caring about Qi. 12:11:54 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:01 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:13:07 -!- tama is now known as coyo 12:13:13 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:14 Quadrescence, what is QuickQi? 12:13:21 quicklisp installer for Qi? 12:13:23 -!- coyo [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:13:23 coyo [~tama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 12:13:37 Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:13:38 Xach: hahahaha 12:13:41 yakov: Yeah 12:19:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:24:17 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75495f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:36 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 12:25:45 Quadrescence: do you use qi? 12:25:58 No. 12:26:22 -!- coyo [~tama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:26:23 Quadrescence: because there is no quickqi? 12:26:28 -!- bandu is now known as coyo 12:26:46 stassats: um qi is fast it runs at 500 KLIPS 12:27:03 kslt1 [~user@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:11 Quadrescence: why did you ask about quickqi? 12:27:25 Trying to get a funny response back like you gave. 12:27:31 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:27:47 Since I don't exactly see wide acceptance of Qi by the lisp community, but I may be wrong! 12:28:03 LiamH: Sebastian_Sturm has gsll questions! 12:28:41 yes, glad to see you :-) 12:28:52 Sebastian_Sturm: hi 12:28:55 -!- maetbag [~user@2.94.53.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:08 I have been trying to use the gsl-multidimensional-root-solver-fdf 12:29:21 and I have set scalarsp to false 12:29:28 wait 12:29:32 ok 12:29:35 minion: please tell Sebastian_Sturm about logs 12:29:36 Sebastian_Sturm: please look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 12:29:58 ok, thank you 12:31:22 or that's rather for LiamH to read 12:32:34 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-50-141.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:32:40 redline6561 [~redline@m145e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:25 Sebastian_Sturm: can you join the gsll-devel mailing list and email your sample code with actual result and expected result? 12:33:47 ok, I'm still browsing the logs 12:33:50 but I'll do that 12:34:15 I'm reading the logs for what you wrote; I can't dig into the problem right now however. 12:38:40 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:42:35 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:26 -!- coyo [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:44 etenil [~etenil@82.45.133.100] has joined #lisp 12:43:47 hi guys 12:43:50 coyo [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 12:44:18 -!- redline6561 [~redline@m145e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:45:37 Are there any tools to generate documentation for lisp files? 12:46:39 doesn't doxygen do that? 12:47:02 timor [~timor@port-92-195-93-48.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:47:17 Maybe, but I wasn't sure if there was something special for lisp, something that doesn't make me feel like I'm writing C++ for an enterprise e-commerce company writing customer databases. 12:47:23 no it doesn't 12:48:24 well, I'm out of ideas. Perhaps one of the lisp ninja/wizards here might know 12:49:52 sgml 12:49:54 tex 12:50:26 -!- coyo [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:50:30 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:50:49 perl 12:50:56 with pod 12:51:43 vsbuffalo: What suggests to you that Erik Naggum was the first Usenet flamer? 12:54:00 -!- fatblued` [~user@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:41 ... Tools for generating documentation for lisp files? The original, and still the best, is that squishy mass of gray stuff between your ears. 12:55:45 -!- ost``` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56:05 ost``` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 12:58:30 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rread] 12:58:46 clochette [~clochette@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 12:59:40 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:00:01 -!- clochette [~clochette@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 13:01:37 -!- lnostdal [~quassel@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:02:31 -!- Sebastian_Sturm [~Adium@wlan1002.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has left #lisp 13:02:41 lnostdal [~quassel@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:04 brandlee [~brandlee@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:07:17 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@d105232.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:12:26 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:09 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:34 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:44 kslt2 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:51 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ntuhgvqpzblymlku] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:22:42 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-99-46.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 13:23:09 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:26:41 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:02 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75495f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:27 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:39 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:30:56 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:32:13 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:33:06 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:36:04 schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:42:15 Fare: what does the return value of asdf:load-system mean? 13:42:21 Fare: I find it a little confusing. 13:43:27 froydnj: git head of chipz fails on abcl now 13:43:53 -!- kslt1 [~user@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:01 froydnj: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115102 13:45:25 looks like org.armedbear.lisp.Symbol chose to die instead of getting the setf function 13:47:26 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-81-14.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:47:26 -!- xavieran_ [~xavieran@ppp118-209-81-14.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:47:32 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.23.163.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:47:44 *Xach* tries to distill it down to something simpler 13:47:51 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 13:47:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 13:47:51 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:48:00 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:19 cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has joined #lisp 13:48:53 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925385290.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:48:57 Quadrescence: try albert, http://albert.sourceforge.net/ 13:49:06 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-178-53.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:57 V-ille: Neat 13:50:52 Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:00 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:55:47 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Quit: x] 13:56:13 tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:06 kslt1 [~user@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:33 ooo, I didn't know about :properties for asdf systems. that looks useful 13:58:36 aha 13:58:41 i found the problem 13:58:45 (i think) 13:59:56 yes, it looks like abcl does not compile (setf (values (structure-accessor structure)) (values 42)) properly. 14:00:10 which is what chipz now uses to update the crc32 structure 14:00:26 that's easy enough to fix in chipz, though it's also an abcl bug 14:00:31 yeah, i'll report it to them 14:00:35 olgagirl [~olgagirl@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:00:46 I'll push a workaround for that 14:00:54 hah. the "Bug reporting" line item on the abcl site is not a link :) 14:02:03 -!- olgagirl [~olgagirl@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:18 TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 14:02:27 *Xach* signs up for abcl-devel, posts 14:03:18 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C640.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:03:22 -!- kslt2 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:03:26 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0AEE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:18 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.109.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:06:43 fix pushed 14:06:55 froydnj: do you care about benchmarketing? 14:06:56 kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.134] has joined #lisp 14:06:56 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.134] has quit [Changing host] 14:06:56 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:07:15 i set up some tests of Deflate vs chipz on various implementations on my system (linux amd64). 14:07:21 Xach: yes 14:07:25 *Xach* will paste his results 14:07:33 I think pmai did that once upon a time too 14:07:40 kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.165.134] has joined #lisp 14:07:42 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.165.134] has quit [Client Quit] 14:07:44 abcl was one of my last implementations to test 14:08:19 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-qbvyaqchdpvexjzy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:12:04 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-87-127.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:34 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 14:15:02 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:15:08 -!- brandlee [~brandlee@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: brandlee] 14:16:16 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:16:21 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 14:16:43 brown [~user@nat/google/x-vjjoxwnfvjdikuch] has joined #lisp 14:16:49 -!- brown is now known as reb 14:18:12 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:26 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:18:31 phrixos [~clarkema@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has joined #lisp 14:18:43 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:23 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 14:24:31 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:25:12 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:47 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:34:14 vipershadow [~vipershad@12.133.48.130] has joined #lisp 14:34:45 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:37:14 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 14:38:53 Hi folks 14:39:31 I'm currently playing with weblocks, and I'd like to make an application whereby I can visit http://foo/bar/baz, and cause this to run widget bar passing baz as an argument 14:39:42 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:57 I currently have a simple nagvigator working for the first part, but how can i pass the remainder of the URL to the called widget as an argument? 14:40:14 phrixos: I don't think there are many (or any) weblocks users here, but the mailing list is quite active. 14:40:49 ah, ok thanks 14:40:51 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:40:57 the docs seems a bit sparse, so i'll give that a bash 14:42:59 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.107.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:44:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:45:30 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925257684.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:46:58 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:47:28 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 14:50:33 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925257684.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:52:51 froydnj: I don't understand these results at all. 14:53:47 froydnj: Maybe it's because I don't know much about Java... unzipping a 1MB file with ABCL takes 13 seconds, unzipping a 2MB file with ABCL takes 15 seconds. 14:54:26 JIT overhead? 14:54:34 What's the time to read those files? 14:54:52 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:48 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.172] has joined #lisp 14:56:17 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 14:56:30 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:58:46 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.93.164] has joined #lisp 14:59:28 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:01:23 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:02:58 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-8-171.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:03:04 hmm, on most implementations, chipz and Deflate are very similar, but chipz wins by an order of magnitude on Allegro 15:03:34 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925257677.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:05:47 -!- schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:06:11 rtoym: is there a 64-bit cmucl? 15:07:28 Is there some kind of automatic dependency tracking build system for lisp like the autotools? 15:08:37 Borbus: I don't think so. 15:09:08 So does everyone manually enter :depends-on instructions into asdf definitions? 15:09:42 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:09:42 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-64-102.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:10:22 I guess I need to be more disciplined abotu which files I place macros in 15:10:54 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 15:11:04 Borbus: for libraries? yes. for files? no. 15:11:12 For files, I use :serial t and list them in order. 15:11:17 Borbus: most large projects eventually use :serial t 15:11:55 Borbus: And that's one of the things xcvb tries to solve. 15:12:18 Borbus: actually, antifuchs has a program that extracts relationship info from a serially loadable system. I could not get it to run, though. 15:12:21 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 15:12:27 I used to either use :serial t or declare my dependencies explicitly. 15:12:33 These days, I don't bother with asdf. 15:12:50 nyef: back to a loader file? 15:12:53 That's a viable option if you don't participate in the community. 15:12:57 dlowe: If that. 15:13:00 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:13:19 Of course, the project that I do the most work on has a "make.sh" file... 15:13:43 (asdf-install:install 'sbcl) 15:14:10 who will install the installers? 15:14:42 dlowe: "debugger invoked on a CHICKEN-AND-EGG-ERROR: No host lisp available" 15:15:23 schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:15:54 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 15:16:46 Can anyone think of a library that common lisp could really do with, one that, say, Python already has? 15:17:04 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:17:17 Borbus: argparser in python is nice 15:17:17 Borbus: I can think of a lot. 15:17:57 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:18:09 Xach: is it possible that you're witnessing java's mandatory array initialization problem? 15:18:54 Maybe someone should make a list in order of priority of libraries that are needed.. as far as I can tell one of the reasons lisp isn't as popular is because it doesn't have tons of libraries like C and Python 15:20:11 borbus: the only case where i've been forced to use python instead of lisp due to library availability was due to xlrd and xlwt, but i doubt that's a common case. 15:20:27 Xach: No working 64-bit cmucl. There is a start of one, but it was never finished. 15:21:05 well, CL also doesn't have "standard" libraries. Instead of httplib and TCPServer, we have drakma and hunchentoot 15:21:24 borbus: making wxcl as good for quickly delivering a cross-platform gui as wxpython would probably have the most practical impact, even though there are plenty of ui options already. 15:25:13 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:26:09 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:28:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:31:15 wvdschel [~wim@d51A4AD41.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 15:31:31 Xach: I don't think load-system has a standardized return value 15:31:50 Hmm.. I have no experience at all with GUIs or what makes a good API for that sort of stuff etc. 15:33:06 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082B502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:09 in practice, the default method will return the operation and the plan 15:33:37 do you think it should return something simpler instead? 15:33:48 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@118.71.132.157] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:34:13 ahem. Maybe operate should keep returning the same thing, but load-system should return a summary of success vs failure 15:34:24 if you have an API suggestion, I'm all ears 15:34:34 *Fare* realizes that the wrong asdf is online 15:36:18 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B3275A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:42 Is there a way to flush a stream or similar? I'm FORMATing a prompt in a LOOP, and READ isn't occuring (it seems) after FORMAT. I suspect FORMAT is performed, but the display isn't flushed. 15:38:57 Quadrescence: see finish-output 15:39:38 derrida: Perfect! Thanks. 15:39:53 ;) 15:40:27 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:40:32 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:42 I've been doing (terpri) in the meantime which has the, in this case, unfortunate side effect of separating the prompt and input with a newline. :) 15:42:07 froydnj: http://paste.lisp.org/display/115105 15:42:21 srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:52 ECL: crashed, heh. the Allegro numbers are really unusual 15:44:47 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 15:46:54 the ABCL numbers are also disappointing; a good 50% slower across the board 15:47:12 -!- vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:47:52 -!- maus [~maus@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Bye bye!] 15:48:09 Xach: what's the test code look like, out of curiousity? 15:48:48 stassats / tcr: in slime, should everything that elisp calls be a slimefun defined by defslimefun? 15:49:23 I have found at least one that isn't in core slime/swank: frame-source-location is called by sldb-show-frame-source 15:49:26 froydnj: annotated 15:49:26 -!- vipershadow [~vipershad@12.133.48.130] has left #lisp 15:49:34 (among others) 15:51:06 Xach: nice, thanks 15:51:33 similarly, buffer-first-change 15:52:05 -!- schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:52:20 something in Deflate makes ecl fail 15:52:26 not sure what. 15:53:36 kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.165.134] has joined #lisp 15:56:20 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 15:57:20 froydnj: well, for a 1MB file you take 20 seconds, and for a 2MB file, you take 20 seconds. so maybe for a 100MB file you take 20 seconds, while Deflate keeps going proportionally... 15:57:35 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.65.168.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 15:57:51 heh, I doubt it :) 15:58:47 Draigh [Nothingman@157.156.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:59:08 may also depend on the particulars of which states we're hitting; the filesize is not necessarily relevant 15:59:34 and I/O might be an issue, too; you might try decompressing from a buffer or similar 15:59:40 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.165.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:47 kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.165.134] has joined #lisp 16:01:55 I almost have the urge to graph Xach's data 16:02:53 argh, I was hoping you wouldn't be around to see what a poor job of measuring I did... 16:03:00 claint [~user@88.247.119.253] has joined #lisp 16:03:02 *Xach* scuttles away to lunch 16:03:55 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:05:01 Dear Common Lisp: Thank you for making hash tables built in. Love, Quad 16:06:11 hehe 16:07:28 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:03 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.165.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:09:12 kdas_ [~kdas@114.143.165.134] has joined #lisp 16:09:45 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 16:10:14 -!- kdas_ is now known as kushal 16:10:24 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.134] has quit [Changing host] 16:10:24 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:12:45 peterbb [~peterbb@s22-00036.dsl.no.powertech.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:57 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.65.168.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:15:24 ASau [~user@ppp85-141-170-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:16:44 yes, finally managed to select a few rows :D 16:20:29 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:22:31 tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:22:37 Greetings lispers 16:25:39 Have to share how I've been spoiled by lisp. I was getting an incorrect plot in gnuplot of a function with the term 1/2. Finally, I realized the 1/2 was being coerced to 0 because I didn't type 1.0/2.0 or alternatively 0.5. Numbers in lisp are handled so well. 16:28:44 logia_th [~nmo@83.35.117.177] has joined #lisp 16:29:43 *tmh* taps the mic, "Test... 1,2,3... Is this thing on?" 16:29:59 yup 16:30:21 python has bothered me more than once with this 16:30:55 it's nice to get transparent casting of numbers :D 16:31:00 tmh: did you mean "3/2,2,7/2..."? 16:31:16 Hah! 16:34:20 Good evening everyone! 16:34:30 Hello beach! 16:35:33 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:38:03 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:42:01 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:59 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-217-5.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:35 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has joined #lisp 16:44:48 evening beach 16:45:24 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-93-48.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:45:54 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@dhcp-13-200.cable.infonet.ee] has joined #lisp 16:48:23 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:50:40 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:52:44 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-133-219.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:09 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:26 hi 16:56:59 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:19 I got a little func (5 line) not working asking myself why .. 16:57:23 -!- kslt1 [~user@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:57:35 Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:57:38 pierrep: paste.lisp.org 16:58:32 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115109 16:59:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-87.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:59:34 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:12 pierrep: your maplist function requires you to give a function too 17:00:38 the last line should be (map-list fn (cdr l)) 17:01:10 madnificent, erf sorry I am so dumb ... 17:01:18 madnificent, thank you 17:01:45 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0AEE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:01:58 -!- etenil [~etenil@82.45.133.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:03:15 pierrep: you're welcome :) 17:03:23 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:03:42 pierrep: you can stare on those kind of errors for days :) 17:08:53 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:09:51 Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:10:32 -!- vsbuffalo [~fualo@markov.genomecenter.ucdavis.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:36 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 17:13:48 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:12 tokenrove: Hmm, I was going to check out wxcl, but it looks like wxcl-project.org has been hacked to link to spam sites. 17:14:22 tokenrove: Do you know anything about the project? Anyone I could email? 17:15:21 hohoho [~hohoho@i121-114-144-98.s04.a014.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:18:53 dsdeiz [~personal@acl1-730bts.gw.smartbro.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:58 froydnj: is there anything we should speed up specifically in ABCL? 17:18:58 -!- dsdeiz [~personal@acl1-730bts.gw.smartbro.net] has left #lisp 17:19:34 ehuuuu! 17:20:23 hi! saw your bugreport 17:20:29 thanks! 17:20:48 No problem. Wish I was as awesome as ivan4th, troubleshooting compilers like crazy, but that was the best I could do. 17:28:06 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:24 Xach: I'm not awesome. It was just that my car broke (timing belt failed) and I had to do something on my N900 during subway commutes. 17:30:50 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@i121-114-144-98.s04.a014.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:31:34 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:32:03 ehu: no idea. I don't use ABCL. I was remarking on Xach's deflate/chipz benchmarks where chipz was consistently slower 17:33:15 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-99-46.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:34:38 ivan4th: you troubleshoot compilers on your N900? 17:34:54 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:35:24 froydnj: he found a bad bug in ccl's ARM compiler. 17:35:32 froydnj: yes, sometimes. did it with clisp and ccl. with clisp it involved some ARM assembly-level debugging using gdb/insight :( 17:36:03 Xach: i looked into it maybe two years ago, and at that time it was pretty dead, but it looked like they had made some promising progress. i don't know any of the developers, but i do entertain the idea of trying to reactivate the project, except that i haven't had any time for open source CL stuff lately. 17:36:17 "The best place to ask louis vuitton handbags questions, and/or give feedback on the library is the wxCL-devel mailing list." <-- sadly, there is probably truth to that statement. 17:36:24 nice 17:36:39 rme: btw, I've found another problem while trying to compile plexippus-xpath. It has to do with defstruct and it breaks cl-yacc. Will perhaps provide more details soon 17:36:40 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:37:58 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-113-217.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:39:20 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:39:37 ivan4th: Not many people have used the ARM port, so I'm pleased to see you using it, but even more pleased to get bug reports and patches. So, thanks. 17:39:37 -!- nullkuhl [~nullkuhl@196.221.230.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:39 in fact I have this electron accelerator control system thing which I cannot release as opensource project due to currently undefined IP status... The next version will likely run on ARM, so having working CCL there will be nice 17:43:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:49:32 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:58 timor [~timor@port-92-195-86-231.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:38 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@dhcp-13-200.cable.infonet.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:51:11 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@dhcp-13-200.cable.infonet.ee] has joined #lisp 17:51:26 -!- TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:57 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-217-5.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:52:49 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d51A4AD41.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:52:53 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4771.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:57:13 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:01:01 -!- Kaer [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01:10 KB [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:04:32 rme: will CCL work on a jailbroken android phone? 18:06:09 Farrrre 18:06:12 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:22 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:07:19 Xacccccch? 18:07:35 did you try asdf 2.132 ? 18:07:43 No. 18:07:50 Fare: i get lengthy confusing output from (asdf:load-system ...) and I don't see it discussed in the manual. What does it mean? 18:07:57 hopefully it solves your upgrade problems. 18:08:02 I'll try it, thanks. 18:08:31 let me rephrase 18:08:32 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 18:08:34 it means we didn't settle on an api yet, but we do have the default method for operate return something that's useful in some situations. 18:08:47 Fare: No. gbyers has experimented a little bit with getting it running on Android, but there 's certainly no Android port. I don't know what all the techincal issues are. I don't know what NDK lets you do, and how much we'd have to deal with their Java-based UI. 18:08:48 what does the return value mean? 18:08:51 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:54 Possibly, load-system should squash that with (values) instead. 18:09:14 it means nothing if you're not going to dig into ASDF guts. 18:09:27 RaceCond1tion [~RaceCondi@dhcp-13-200.cable.infonet.ee] has joined #lisp 18:09:41 the first value is the operation object - from which you can inspect various things about what happened. 18:10:08 the second value is the TRAVERSE plan, from which you can see which files were compiled. 18:10:41 brandlee [~brandlee@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:11:14 I added this second value after someone (sam s from clisp?) wanted that incremental file information for testing purposes. 18:11:31 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@dhcp-13-200.cable.infonet.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:11:36 but I think the shorthand load-system and such should return nothing -- what do you think? 18:11:36 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 18:11:37 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 18:11:37 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 18:11:50 I tend to think of the shorthand load-system as a user-level, repl interface. 18:11:55 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-133-219.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:12:01 Maybe there could be something else to get that info for a program interface. 18:12:03 yup 18:12:07 should it always return T ? 18:12:34 Fare: maybe it could return the name of the system that was just loaded, or the system object? 18:12:40 Anything but nil on success, please! 18:12:53 T is also very fine 18:13:00 at this point, I can't think of anything useful, so T 18:13:05 swank:inspect-in-emacs is wonderful 18:16:02 -!- RaceCond1tion [~RaceCondi@dhcp-13-200.cable.infonet.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:16:10 Xach: ok, pushed as 2.133 18:16:28 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@dhcp-13-200.cable.infonet.ee] has joined #lisp 18:16:32 is there anything else I need before I bless it as 2.009 ? 18:16:49 Fare: let me try a build of everything with 2.133 18:16:56 that will take a few hours 18:17:37 Fare: does 2.133/pre-2.009 have the fix for the ccl logical pathname host? 18:17:51 what bug was that? 18:17:59 I don't remember any bug that wasn't fixed. 18:18:36 something about no such file or directory: #p"ccl:" in wrapping-something-mumble 18:18:43 *Xach* tries to find the discussion 18:18:51 oh - you mean, the thing that fails when *default-pathname-defaults* is nil or whatever? 18:18:56 https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/636506 18:19:27 Ah yes, that was the one. I had a user encounter that problem this week. 18:19:29 Thanks. 18:19:58 so yes, it will have that fix. 18:20:13 I'm hesitating about releasing it today or not 18:20:18 Fare: I think I'd like to test pre-2.009 more on multiple implementations over the weekend. Unless you're in a hurry, I think it would be better to wait. 18:20:32 ok, let's wait. Thanks! 18:21:47 hopefully, it will be released before the final version of my ASDF2 paper, so I don't have to lie about all important outstanding bugs being fixed. 18:23:28 rlb3 [~rlb@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:23 -!- ASau [~user@ppp85-141-170-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:30:53 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-25-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:32:26 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-86-231.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:34:40 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:48 slyrus_: two replace's should do. 18:35:47 naryl [~naryl@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 18:36:14 -!- brandlee [~brandlee@213.129.230.10] has quit [Quit: brandlee] 18:36:26 Hello. Looks like #ecl channel is empty. Where can I look for some help on ecl? 18:36:53 naryl: the mailing list is very active and helpful. 18:37:17 naryl: some people here use it, also. can't hurt to ask, but there might be no answer. 18:37:36 *Fare* doesn't have the courage to fix cl-launch for ecl once more. 18:39:14 I run "nc -l -p 1035", connect to the socket with sb-bsd-sockets and send some string every second. As soon as I stop nc ecl segfaults. 18:39:45 sbcl raises simple-stream-error 18:39:47 sounds like a bug 18:40:10 how do you debug with ecl? 18:40:23 gdb! 18:40:38 slime unless it segfaults :/ 18:42:50 brandlee [~brandlee@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:42:57 ecl segfaults for me while building itself, eh 18:43:12 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:06 -!- brandlee is now known as brand_lee_jones 18:44:09 -!- brand_lee_jones [~brandlee@213.129.230.10] has quit [Client Quit] 18:44:25 brand_lee_jones [~brand_lee@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:44:48 -!- brand_lee_jones [~brand_lee@213.129.230.10] has left #lisp 18:47:37 vsbuffalo [~fualo@markov.genomecenter.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 18:47:58 actually i don't need to embed it. I just need to build slim binaries with few dependencies. ecl seems perfect closely followed by clisp (is there a way to drop ncurses and readline deps?). 18:49:07 doesn't ECL depend on a C compiler? 18:49:22 runtime doesn't... i hope 18:49:43 well, it does, if you want to compile to machine code 18:50:08 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:50:08 and on what does SBCL depend that makes it unsuitable? 18:50:23 naryl, what target platform? 18:50:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/115113 how could i make this into a function that would take the list as a parameter? 18:50:41 sbcl makes binaries with fewest deps but they are 30MB by themselves. 18:50:53 and yeah i dont know why i didnt just paste that :S 18:50:54 stassats: I mean the executable files compiled by them, not the systems. 18:51:12 Fare: linux/mac 18:51:59 Draigh, (1) sort is destructive, '(...) is a constant -- don't do that 18:52:00 Draigh: i don't understand the question 18:52:06 Draigh: (defun my-function (list) (sort list (lambda (a b) ...))) 18:52:09 (2) use lambda or defun 18:52:15 brand_lee_jones [~brand_lee@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 18:52:35 Xach, i could swear i just tried that! let me try it again 18:52:45 Draigh, annotate your paste 18:53:18 Draigh: and it looks like you're using lists instead of a suitable data structure, which makes your code incomprehensible 18:53:39 Draigh: also http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/a14dcbfcf6cccd13 18:53:52 stassats, that's one of the remarks I made in my ASDF2 article 18:54:07 much appreciated, thanks 18:54:40 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:25 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-5-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:41 "thou shalt tailor thy datastructures to the target problem" 18:57:41 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-26-88.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:58:15 -!- hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-117-136.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:55 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:31 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@dhcp-13-200.cable.infonet.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:07:53 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.93.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:54 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:09:37 timor [~timor@port-92-195-98-150.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:31 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:43 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-25-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:12:03 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: dooty is dooty, and dooty calls] 19:15:31 seelenquell [~kvirc@pD9E47219.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:51 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:20:13 fusss [~fusss@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:31 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:22:17 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:22:40 -!- rlb3 [~rlb@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-202-41.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:24:22 Jini [~pidgin@94.242.140.250] has joined #lisp 19:25:04 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:25:15 it's really a sad day when the CL OAuth library is superior to Jersey, Java's JSR-311 reference implementation 19:25:15 fusss, memo from Fade: http://www.deepsky.com/~fade/mel-base 19:25:26 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:25:49 -!- brand_lee_jones [~brand_lee@213.129.230.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:25:53 fusss: what is JSR-311? 19:26:15 brand_lee_jones [~brand_lee@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 19:26:16 java's RESTful mete-architectue 19:26:19 meta 19:26:54 cl-oath is just 2 files. jersey-oath-client is 5 jars and bundles a relational database (Derby) 19:27:21 imagine if libcurl shipped with sqlite3 19:27:33 I'm trying to use GLX, but I can't run even the demo program supplied together with the CLX package. It fails on glx:make-current with the following error: 19:27:33 Asynchronous MATCH-ERROR in request 14 (last request was 16) Code 1.0 [CreateWindow] 19:27:33 clx-0.7.4, xorg-7.4. Can someone help me? 19:31:14 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:05 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 19:33:43 sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:52 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-48-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:40:23 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:06 -!- Ibex_twin [~lars@a89-152-235-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has left #lisp 19:41:17 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-98-150.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:43:50 <_8david> no idea. Do you need GLX specifically? 19:44:02 <_8david> (as opposed to cl-opengl or so) 19:44:24 Whatever that whould allow me to create my own window 19:44:41 Several windows that is, so SDL and GLUT won't do 19:45:00 *_3b* thought glut allowed multiple windows? 19:45:40 Hm? I saw that you have to enter in main loop when you have done with making the window and thought it doesn't 19:45:40 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75495f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:40 <_3b> could also try glop 19:45:45 I'll check it again 19:46:03 <_3b> pretty sure there is a function in the glut demos to run all of them at once 19:46:30 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.172] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 19:46:41 I didn't know about gloop, I'll try it now 19:46:50 Thank you 19:47:39 <_8david> I think cl-gtk2 also has opengl integration. (Depending on where you're coming from or going to with your project that might be complete overkill or very nice and easy to use.) 19:48:19 Overkill probably. All I need is just a window 19:48:23 <_3b> yeah, cl-opengl could probably work with most of the ffi-based windowing lib bindings 19:48:32 Well, that's what I think right now, perhaps later I will have to change my mind :) 19:48:51 *_3b* has heard arguments both ways for working with clx or not, so dunno about that 19:49:32 -!- fusss [~fusss@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:50:42 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 19:50:56 gcv [~gcv@cpe-24-193-231-103.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:37 fusss [~fusss@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:15 -!- brand_lee_jones [~brand_lee@213.129.230.10] has quit [Quit: brand_lee_jones] 19:52:56 -!- hdurer_ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:52:56 hdurer_ [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 19:53:55 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1C82.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:02:15 sbahra [~sbahra@205.215.253.26] has joined #lisp 20:04:48 Hm, it seems that I misunderstood how glut works 20:05:05 It seems to allow creation of several windows in one thread, so it will work for me 20:05:08 glop also works 20:05:10 benny [~benny@i577A1ACD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:12 Thank you again 20:07:25 So, two things about CLX and GLX... Well, three. First, clx-0.7.4 is unusable for GLX, you need the glx-fixes branch, and possibly from git, as ISTR making some change since the release. Second, ISTR the demos hard-coding the display depth or something. Third, the GLX is more than a little incomplete. 20:07:49 I use it, but you might be better off with something else. 20:09:19 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:20 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:33 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:10:26 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-85.netcologne.de] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:21 timor [~timor@port-92-195-231-250.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:26 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-191-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:12:23 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-191-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:37 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-48-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:16:42 -!- ehks [~user@207.188.29.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:24 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 20:19:30 Hey guys 20:20:04 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:07 Hi Sikander 20:20:37 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:20:41 LiamH: I added additional tests, and only one set of tests is now missing. Working on that as well. 20:20:55 Sikander: nice 20:20:59 Xach: re: naggum - Wikipedia 20:21:02 LiamH: However... it's still incredibly slow... 20:21:03 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:21:23 Sikander: haven't had a chance to do anything on it in a while 20:21:31 -!- vsbuffalo is now known as vs 20:21:32 LiamH: And, this is the worst part, not all cases of the new tests pass. I don't understand why, though. I'm working on it. 20:22:05 Xach: I like your archive btw... excellent resource. 20:22:46 LiamH: It's related to testing the non-radix-2 algorithms on vectors with sizes of powers of 2. So theoretically not something anyone would use, but still, it MUST pass, yet it doesn't. Some random errors in there again (d'oh!) 20:23:05 Sikander: it this committed? I don't see any commits since Sept. 15. 20:23:26 Sikander: well maybe the algorithms are designed to work in those cases; you notice the GSL tests skip those. 20:23:43 LiamH: I haven't pushed yet, because I wanted to figure out the problem 20:24:02 LiamH: Wait, I'll push it now. 20:24:09 LiamH: No, they don't skip those tests. 20:24:14 Sikander: you could push in a new branch if you want 20:24:27 LiamH: Dammit, too late... 20:24:27 Sikander: I thought they did skip them. 20:24:41 Sikander: no worries 20:24:48 LiamH: For the radix-2 algorithms, they skip non-radix-2 vector sizes. 20:24:52 *attila_lendvai* is pleased with his environment. it can easily build sbcl core files with every dependency of a randomly picked project, and start a slime session using these core files and the picked slime branch 20:25:04 Sikander: and vice versa, no? 20:25:13 LiamH: But for the non-radix-2 algorithms, they run them on all vector sizes. 20:25:25 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 20:25:45 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:25:47 now i just need to bring our goddamn slime branch uptodate... 20:26:20 LiamH: It's the second set of nested for loops in the main function of test.c. 20:27:32 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:27:32 SIkander: I don't see FFT tests at all in what you just committed. 20:27:38 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 20:27:48 LiamH: I disabled them, I think. 20:28:26 LiamH: because they fail on 18 cases. Dammit, I was checking something else before I committed. sorry 20:28:33 archangelpetro [~archangel@cpc2-oxfd19-2-0-cust1010.4-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:35 wooooooo 20:28:37 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.65.168.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 20:28:38 lisp 20:28:40 :D 20:28:58 *Sikander* waits until archangelpetro does a little dance. 20:29:54 *archangelpetro* does a little dance 20:30:05 *archangelpetro* gets down tonight 20:31:16 Joreji [~thomas@76-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:31:55 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:33:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-87.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:27 Here's a silly question: since sbcl stand-alone executables are so large, is there any other overhead involved (performance-wise) to an executable compiled from C? 20:36:07 Compared to? 20:36:16 *tmh* does not understand the question. 20:36:24 tmh: Oh, yes, I accidentally the sentence. 20:36:36 tmh: ... compared to an executable compiled from C. 20:37:25 Sikander, i don't think the sbcl executables are so large, considering what's contained in them. 20:38:03 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:38:17 My intuition would be that an SBCL executable would take longer to start, but after that the difference in performance would be what you would expect. 20:38:19 Dodek: So perhaps, what I should say is, considering what's contained in them, does that increase any performance overhead compared to an exectuable compiled from C 20:38:28 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-99-134.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:39:03 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:08 Sikander, it will surely take more memory, but the cpu won't be slowed down by that. 20:39:14 anyone know about common-lisp-stat? how complete is it? 20:39:33 http://github.com/blindglobe/common-lisp-stat 20:39:42 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-231-250.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:39:58 tmh: So if we assume there's no ffi in the lisp code, everything is monolithic, whereas the C program probably has to load shared objects/libraries. How would those compare wrt startup time? 20:40:33 I realise that these questions are rather silly, but it's just something I'm curious about. 20:40:51 Sikander: I have never compared that and now we are getting far outside of my domain knowledge. :-) 20:41:03 tmh: ok, thanks :) 20:41:08 brand_lee_jones [~brand_lee@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 20:41:17 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:41:23 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-85.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:01 Sikander, why don't you see for yourself? i have a 40MB SBCL core image. it loads in, like, 1-3 seconds. i'm not sure how much time exactly it takes, for i don't do this very often - quite rarely, to be honest. 20:42:09 LiamH: Did you try the fft tests (if you just had time now, that is...)? 20:42:52 Dodek: I was curious at people's experiences. You are right, I _should_ try this myself. 20:43:41 Sikander: what do I need to do to activate them? 20:43:47 Sikander: Tangentially, I was reading through the documentation for creating executables with LispWorks and there are quite a few options for controlling what ultimately ends up in the executable. 20:43:54 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:43:56 Dodek: It's just that I'm still very used to running programs from the shell, and use plumbing etc. instead of running my stuff from a repl 20:44:29 Sikander: My goal is to eventually make the REPL my shell. :-) 20:44:39 LiamH: Oh, sorry, uncomment the all-fft-test-forms in tests/fast-fourier-transform.lisp 20:44:41 Sikander, people don't usually do that, they prefer long running images. 20:45:22 Sikander, lisp doesn't come along with unix philosophy very nicely. 20:45:22 tmh: Yes, that's what I want to go towards as well. 20:45:29 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:46:13 Dodek: Why is that? I would actually expect it would. Each function itself is a small program that does only one thing, and very well. From that, you can build larger functions etc. This does require a lisp shell, so to speak... 20:47:56 Dodek: Because of the REPL, I would expect that it _is_ possible to adhere to the unix philosophy with lisp 20:48:04 Sikander, actually, by "unix philosophy" i meant "unix way of doing things". 20:49:03 small programs communicating through pipes are quite different than functions communicationg via data structures. 20:49:53 i specifically mean that the former are more separate from each other then the latter. 20:50:18 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:51 s/then/than/ 20:51:35 Sikander: that's only 20x3, right? 20:51:44 LiamH: Yes, and very slow 20:51:59 LiamH: GSL does 99x3... 20:52:12 and while the lisp, repl etc, may be in the spirit of unix, it is not really convenient to use in a real unix. 20:53:26 Dodek: point taken. It could still be used to build specific environments for performing certain operations. But indeed, interacting with the file system etc would be more the domain of sh-like things 20:54:03 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:13 timor [~timor@port-92-195-110-171.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:54:49 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:51 So that's why people use emacs and permanently running images, eh. To have a lisp environment ready to do useful stuff in 20:55:03 ? 20:55:04 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:55:15 symbole [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 20:55:38 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has left #lisp 20:56:27 Sikander: Check out the documentation for LispWorks sessions. Sessions store a snapshot of your image to disk that you can start from later. It can even be done on a schedule. This is really handy if you have to reboot. 20:56:44 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:49 Or if you mess up your image and need to go back to a previous snapshot. 20:57:14 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-99-134.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:57:19 FAST-FOURIER-TRANSFORM: 983 assertions passed, 18 failed. 20:58:04 tmh: That's pretty fancy 20:58:10 LiamH: Yes 20:58:42 LiamH: the 18 that fail are some of the power-of-2-length vectors with non-radix-2 algorithms. 20:58:43 sounds like the off-radix check again? 20:58:52 heh 20:59:03 you mean off-stride? 20:59:16 oh, maybe that's what I mean 20:59:27 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:43 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:59:59 could be, but the way I fixed the stride bug was independent of radix. 21:00:04 Or so I thought... 21:00:23 OK. I've got go now; will you be on over the weekend? 21:00:36 Aaanyway, the important point was to tell you that stuff is being worked on, stuff is being done, and stuff still breaks sometimes :) 21:00:39 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:00:41 LiamH: Most probably, yes 21:01:13 SIkander: OK good, progress is good even if it goes backwards sometimes 21:01:29 it's some kind of biased random walk 21:01:32 Heheh, reminds me of some chinese puzzle 21:01:55 To make progress, you have to take a step back sometimes. 21:02:17 LiamH: You mean it's a general Brownian motion towards some point? 21:02:28 towards perfection! 21:02:38 Exactly! 21:02:45 Sikander: I prefer to think of it like simulated annealing ;) 21:03:02 ah, exactly! 21:03:50 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@205.215.253.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:11 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:29 LiamH: anyway, progress is slow because I pretend to hold a job as well as a life, and sometimes I like hacking away at random other things, but I'm still on it. 21:04:59 Sikander: well, same here, and I imagine for most on this channel, so, no worries 21:04:59 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:05:34 Great. Because for some reason, I decided I wanted to have a try at shuffletron as well :) 21:06:18 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-219-157.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:06:49 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:08:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08:21 Also, I still have fftw on my list. My initial idea was to have it as a contrib-like project in gsll, but perhaps I should first have separate fftw bindings making use of gsd/foreign-array and only then put gsll-compatible wrappers in gsll. 21:08:26 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-211-219.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:52 Sounds good, chat later. Bye 21:09:00 Later 21:09:10 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:09:15 Time for me to go too, btw 21:09:35 thanks for the help, and see you later 21:09:43 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:09:45 -!- UnwashedMeme [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:10:05 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:20 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-29-128.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:11:47 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-156-189.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:11:48 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-110-171.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11:55 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:14:20 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.65.168.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 21:16:38 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:55 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.65.168.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 21:18:29 -!- brand_lee_jones [~brand_lee@213.129.230.10] has quit [Quit: brand_lee_jones] 21:22:48 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:23:28 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:23:39 -!- gcv [~gcv@cpe-24-193-231-103.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: gcv] 21:24:20 is stg widely used around here? (a thin layer on top of a git repo that helps managing a stack of pending patches) 21:25:09 I've never heard of it. 21:26:09 the project description seems to be exactly what i need, but i'm wondering about the quality of the real deal... 21:26:09 timor [~timor@port-92-195-1-32.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:26:39 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-29-128.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:26:45 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:38 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-242.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:30:08 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925257677.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:31:00 Janik [~chatzilla@79.189.74.148] has joined #lisp 21:31:12 -!- claint [~user@88.247.119.253] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:32:50 Joreji [~thomas@76-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:32:54 Hinatka [h184x126@ufo.ds13.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 21:33:03 rswarbrick [rupert@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:33:15 urandom__ [~user@p548A6764.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:19 kacper [~beluch@aabn58.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:34:35 -!- Hinatka [h184x126@ufo.ds13.agh.edu.pl] has left #lisp 21:35:05 If you've been hesitating about going to the ILC in Reno, I'm sure the chance to win an ARM smartbook with a free copy of CCL will make you want to attend after all. 21:35:25 *Xach* never hesitated 21:35:41 :/ 21:36:02 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-199.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:36:56 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 21:37:03 *_3b* suspects it would be cheaper (if not as entertaining) to just buy a smartbook directly :p 21:37:34 But the free copy of CCL! 21:39:03 Maybe we can get Gary Byers can autograph it. 21:39:20 <_3b> the copy of ccl? :) 21:40:08 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:40:42 people are getting their kindles autographed at author signings these days 21:40:49 ILC seems to be a good opportunity as a first visit to the USA on tax deducible company money... :) 21:41:03 so sure, why not getting the smartbook signed by the author of a piece of software on it. :) 21:42:58 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-1-32.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:43:02 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-51-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:43:58 The *only* problem I have with that is I think the signature would smear. 21:45:04 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-243-238.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 21:45:08 -!- fusss [~fusss@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:45:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:49:26 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-113-217.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:30 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:58 what is 'lisp '? 21:53:17 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:54:38 -!- kacper [~beluch@aabn58.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has left #lisp 21:54:46 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:55:35 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:57:34 that was fast 21:57:34 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-51-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:47 timack [~tim@hlfx53-1-34.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 21:59:08 timor [~timor@port-92-195-77-147.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:02:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-87.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:04:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-202-41.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:05:56 brand_lee_jones [~brand_lee@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 22:06:23 -!- brand_lee_jones [~brand_lee@213.129.230.10] has quit [Client Quit] 22:06:40 -!- seelenquell [~kvirc@pD9E47219.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net] 22:08:56 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:09:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:09:40 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:11:01 Joreji [~thomas@76-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:13:38 redline6561 [~redline@216-177-174-170.block0.gvtc.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:50 Ppjet6 [~ppjet@ALille-256-1-33-235.w90-18.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:14:07 burtdirt [~karim@c-24-91-30-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:14 -!- Ppjet6 is now known as Pepe_ 22:14:19 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:14:26 -!- Pepe_ is now known as Pepe__ 22:16:21 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-77-147.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-29-75.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:21:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:21:52 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:22:45 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:54 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.151] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:07 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:04 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:25:08 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-199.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:25:31 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:25:50 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-243-238.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:26 -!- tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 22:30:49 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 22:31:17 timor [~timor@port-92-195-124-61.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:31:41 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:10 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06f04b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 22:38:01 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:58 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:41:23 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:41:59 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:35 -!- Janik [~chatzilla@79.189.74.148] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.11/20100701023340]] 22:44:04 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-78-164.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:45:07 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-124-61.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:47:53 What's an easy way to determine if the name of a symbol ends in a given string? (my actual use-case here is looking for symbols ending in "-WIDETAG"). 22:48:07 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:48:34 alexandria:ends-with-subseq? 22:48:59 No dependencies allowed. 22:49:16 (Not an arbitrary restriction: This is going in my local SBCL tree.) 22:49:35 I'd use string= then. 22:50:04 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-78-164.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:15 (and (longer than "-widetag") (string= symbol "-widetag" :start1 (- ...))) 22:50:26 Mmm. Thanks. 22:50:31 <_3b> (eql 0 (serach 22:50:50 <_3b> (eql 0 (search "GATEDIW-" (reverse (symbol-name symbol)))) ? 22:51:11 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.60.137] has joined #lisp 22:51:26 ooof 22:51:27 Ouch, but workable. Thanks. 22:52:48 And the EQL being important, as the SEARCH can return NIL. Right. 22:53:41 <_3b> wrapping the string= thing in a function would probably be a nicer solution though :) 22:53:58 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 22:54:14 It's going in a #. or a toplevel form (not sure which yet). 22:54:16 phrixos [~clarkema@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:54:22 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-141-96.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please] 22:54:46 I'm really not worried too much about factoring it. 22:54:59 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:33 <_3b> ah, actually, i guess (zerop (mismatch "-WIDETAG" (symbol-name sym) :from-end t)) or something like that would work too 22:58:56 zerop will fail for the case where mismatch returns nil 22:59:04 <_3b> yeah, was just about to mention that 22:59:25 <_3b> so eql 0 there again, if you might have a symbol named "-WIDETAG" 23:01:23 <_3b> actually, i guess the whole thing should return t in that case, so that isn't quite right either :p 23:01:34 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 23:02:14 Hi a CLOS/mop question. Suppose a class FOO inherits from BAR. BAR has a slot S with :ACCESSOR BAR-S. If you get the DIRECT-SLOT-DEFINITION for S and call SLOT-DEFINITION-READERS on it, you get a list containing BAR-S. Now suppose I want to override the initarg for S in FOO. I use something like (S :initarg "gibbon") in the defclass form. Now SLOT-DEFINITION-READERS returns the empty list. Is there a way not to have to specify the 23:02:14 :accessor this time round too? 23:03:07 <_3b> hmm, a string as :initarg? 23:03:19 Sure! Have you tried calling BAR-S on a FOO? 23:03:23 (in my copy of AMOP, I notice that it says something about SLOT-DEFINITION-READERS etc. returning the explicit :READERS passed) 23:03:58 nyef: Yes, but I've got a MOP-based generic display thingy which needs to get the reader for an arbitrary slot in a class it's passed. 23:04:06 So that doesn't generalise :-) 23:04:24 STBY, then. Have your "thingy" walk the inheritance tree. 23:04:38 Ah, that's a good point. 23:04:43 STBY?? 23:05:44 Basically, I was hoping someone would say there was an equivalent of CLASS-SLOTS' relation to CLASS-DIRECT-SLOTS for readers on a given slot. 23:05:47 Surely The Best Yearning 23:05:51 But maybe there isn't. 23:06:07 fusss [~chatzilla@64.134.66.41] has joined #lisp 23:06:21 Xach: ??!! Ok, so I'm missing a cultural reference? 23:06:44 Xach: I closed the (setf values) issue because it doesn't exist on trunk with d-m-c patches 23:06:53 rswarbrick: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=stby 23:07:03 Xach: you will need to apply both patches from #66, of I can send you updated jars. Cheers! 23:07:27 s/of/or 23:07:35 *sigh* I should probably not have just googled for Xach's reply :-) 23:07:49 fusss: cool, glad to hear it 23:07:55 fusss: what's d-m-c? 23:08:23 define-method-combination, the long form of it. It's the only difference between my instance and release 23:09:04 did you want me to try it on a pristine one? 23:09:24 -!- Draigh [Nothingman@157.156.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [] 23:10:16 *Xach* doesn't know 23:11:17 -!- burtdirt [~karim@c-24-91-30-6.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:11:38 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:51 fusss: how did you test that it was fixed? 23:13:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 23:13:38 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 23:14:52 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:15:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-87.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:16:43 I run it on my abcl? 23:17:27 Xach: if I can't replicate the problem, when I am running trunk with a patch; that leaves me to think that the fix is either in trunk or the patch. 23:18:15 fusss: You run what your your abcl? 23:18:33 Xach: you're not making sense :-D 23:18:43 yes, I ran your trigger function and it works just fine 23:18:46 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:52 fusss: You compiled & loaded the file? 23:19:05 oh, no, interpreter .. (sorry!) 23:19:08 let me try that now 23:19:13 No problem interpreted. 23:19:54 Xach: I be damned .. you're right 23:20:33 *Xach* tries to make sense 23:21:14 apologies old man! 23:23:53 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:24:28 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:28:15 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:14 pferor [~user@42.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:30:23 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:30:24 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:31:48 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:33:10 jso [~user@ip68-111-169-131.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:21 -!- pferor [~user@42.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: !] 23:36:16 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:34 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-149.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:38:18 If anyone's interested, I found a solution to the "finding a slot reader" problem. The codes pasted at http://paste.lisp.org/display/115120 . Yes, the IFs and UNLESSes are indeed pretty ugly. 23:38:35 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:33 s/if no-error nil/unless no-error/ 23:41:45 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:28 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.60.137] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:29 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6764.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:42:30 (Unless results in NIL if its condition evaluates to false.) 23:42:47 r4v5 [~r4v5@adsl-69-210-251-233.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:24 ... And no, I'm not going to nit-pick further than that. 23:43:44 Well I instantly see a difference between #lisp and ##c 23:44:29 Heh. 23:44:44 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.65.168.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:45:07 why do you need to find them? 23:48:38 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.65.168.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 23:48:38 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:49:07 nyef: Ah, thanks. 23:50:24 kslt1 [~user@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:31 would be nice if there was only one in-package per file, and preferably somewhere in the top 23:52:04 that is the convention with which i am most familiar 23:52:16 fusss: Ever tried only one def-package per file, at the top? 23:52:44 nyef: good memory ;-) 23:54:51 fusss: why would anyone ever use lisp it is a slow language and was only used my mit like 50 years ago 23:55:31 Quadrescence: http://twitter.com/xach/status/25350810547 23:55:32 you need LISP for MACSYMA 23:55:50 Xach: hahaha 23:55:57 fusss: That is very true! 23:56:32 fusss: Actually, jokes aside, Maxima is what got me interested in Lisp in the first place. 23:56:43 So ner! :-) 23:56:47 *Quadrescence* is still looking for a copy of MACSYMA for the old lispms or pre-1990. 23:57:17 *rswarbrick* doesn't have an old lispm 23:58:48 /me continues on original ... discussion 23:59:23 if lisp is so good then why is java so popular and lisp is dead??? 23:59:47 Quadrescence: I think you want #ironicallystupidlisp