00:00:08 Ah, it was a Z8. And Zilog still exists. 00:00:39 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 00:01:02 Heh. I learned Z8 assembly over a lunch period one day. 00:01:15 (Well, learned enough to do some damage.) 00:01:20 Demented CPU, really. 00:01:40 Didn't help, in the end, that the manuals we had were wrong in places. 00:02:01 Hard to do a perfectly cycle-counted loop when the manual gives the wrong cycle timings for some instructions. 00:02:04 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:48 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:54 Heh. That sucks. I once had a hardware project that I just couldn't get working after weeks of debugging. Everything was right! 00:03:06 timack [~tim@hlfx53-1-164.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 00:03:45 Until I looked closely at the data sheet that was given to us in class. There was a smudge over one of the lines. It was actually a bar. Hence, my logic was supposed to be inverted. 00:04:33 mbohun [~mbohun@eth649.act.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:08 Never played with a Z8, but read about the Z8000, which was nice, except for the segmented architecture. 00:06:04 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@eth649.act.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:06:13 p_l|backup: thanks for the suggestions on hosting. 00:06:23 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:06:27 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:33 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:07 wonderful news, the SQL speed issue was due to mysql and my filesystem being improperly configured, not clsql :-) 00:07:23 need barrier=0 using ext4 on ubuntu, apparently 00:07:32 ... As I said earlier, my condolences. 00:08:59 4096 registers. funneh 00:10:49 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 00:12:10 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:04 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:10 -!- s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:16:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:20:52 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:53 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 00:23:14 The_Jon_Smith: There's a reason why most "big" databases usually work on direct access to disks 00:23:29 brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:23:53 luckily for me this is just a little school project :-) 00:24:03 p_l|backup: not anymore, actually 00:25:59 anonymouse89 [~anonymous@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:16 _8david: herep 00:26:52 night 00:26:57 -!- leo2007 [~sl392@webserver-ucamorg.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: leave] 00:29:55 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.2.85] has joined #lisp 00:33:27 koollman: Oracle (which isn't a good example but well...) does, the same for "big iron" version of DB2 (which while it goes through "filesystem", it's different enough to warrant this statement). 00:33:40 Though I'll agree, that many don't do that anymore 00:34:04 SQL Server uses a hybrid approach - MS has extensions built on top of NTFS that are used by it, afaik 00:34:47 minion: memo for _8david: David, are you the maintainer of trivial-gray-streams? I just sent you a patch for ABCL, let me know if it's not good enough 00:34:47 Remembered. I'll tell _8david when he/she/it next speaks. 00:35:38 regarding databases, I'm currently pondering between usage of PostgreSQL and rucksack :/ 00:35:58 p_l|backup: in what universe are the two comparable? 00:37:10 fusss: in the "nothing has been done yet and both are usable for the application in question" 00:37:13 fusss: Probably the same universe in which they may be compared to a summers day. 00:38:23 rucksack has ease of integration going for it, while PostgreSQL has "future proofing against hit-by-bus condition" as well as more outside support & backing up solutions... 00:40:27 when it comes to API and usage, the only difference I can think of is that postmodern one step extra: $ createdb .. 00:40:52 and rucksack is easy in the sense that hacking limbs off of toddlers is easy with a chainsaw 00:41:02 lol 00:41:32 well, the application in a way is one that isn't necessarily well suited for RDBMS (think "document storage") so I guess couchdb would be also an option 00:41:42 I know already that part of the data is going into OpenLDAP server. 00:42:49 and you want to use rucksack for *document* storage? 00:43:45 fusss: Given that those "documents" would be CLOS classes (and not BLOBs)... 00:44:58 postmodern is the most succinct persistence API for _any_ language that I know of. and it's backed by a solid, tried and true solution. 00:45:36 dicking around with "web scale" technologies is just gonna waste your time and embarrass you 00:45:42 rucksack has the advantage of chewing up lots of compute cycles while loading things if you need to heat your office 00:46:09 Meh. If that's all you need, set up an SBCL buildbot. 00:46:15 fusss: Nah, not going for "web scale" stuff 00:46:22 That'll generate plenty of heat. 00:46:29 is there something like Mnesia ? 00:46:39 nyef: I use "run firefox on big webpage" for that 00:47:44 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 00:48:14 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:20 I guess I should try postmodern for the cl-bio backend db one of these days 00:50:35 -!- logia_th [~nmo@83.35.117.177] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 00:50:38 slyrus_cl-bio? 00:51:34 slyrus_ add it to quicklisp :-) 00:52:14 it's not really ready for quicklisp yet. pieces of it aren't that far away from being ready, but I haven't been actively working on it for a while. 00:53:25 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 00:54:14 it has: 1) compact DNA/protein sequence representations, 2) editable (including insert/delete) sequences with good performance thanks to flexichain, 3) nice routines for getting reference/publication data out of pubmed thanks to drakma 00:54:55 does cl-pubmed relate in any way? 00:55:14 4) taxonomy (species tree) I/O, 5) FASTA I/O, 6) sequence alignment representations 00:55:46 and publications 00:55:48 Xach: only in that they're somewhat similar 00:56:40 IIRC, I ended up with what I felt was a cleaner implementation by using plexxipus (sp?) than kmr did with his hand-coded xml walking stuff 00:57:02 come to think of it, cl-bio is a nice example of how one can do an awful lot using CLs existing libraries: 00:57:14 more dependencies! 00:57:40 Xach: well, sort of... more well-founded dependencies, I guess 00:58:04 i don't care if they're well-founded! MORE! 00:58:13 but I think cl-bio would benefit by removing the rucksack dependency 00:58:21 Xach: "Too many dots" :-( 00:58:35 *slyrus_* depends on dinner 00:59:50 argh, clisp is not completely accurate in its man page about what files are read at startup. 01:00:35 rplaca [~vwood@oucs1229.otago.ac.nz] has joined #lisp 01:00:44 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:50 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:01:43 ls 01:03:06 Is my client borked, or is it just quiet? 01:03:07 shh! 01:03:22 rplaca: Everyone is hacking too much for idle chatter. 01:03:40 *fusss* hacking with a chainsaw 01:04:02 rplaca: it is 3 am. people are sleeping 01:04:05 -!- ddevaal [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:04:28 so, how could weak pointers be faked on the jvm? trivial-garbage wants it 01:06:10 It's 2pm here. You could cast the pointers to integers and cast back when you need to use them? 01:06:42 Wait, no that's stupid 01:07:58 fusss: with java.lang.ref.WeakReference. 01:08:22 pkhuong: THANKS :-) 01:09:10 clog [nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 01:09:36 alright, good nite all 01:09:38 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]] 01:11:00 Xach: what do you mean not accurate ? 01:11:58 fe[nl]ix: I mean that the manual page for my clisp says that it will load ~/.clisprc.lisp or ~/.clisprc.fas, whichever is newer 01:12:16 fe[nl]ix: however, my clisp prefers ~/.clisprc and if present, ignores ~/.clisprc.lisp 01:12:34 fe[nl]ix: that might be described in the implementation notes, but i haven't checked yet. 01:15:01 interesting 01:15:07 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:15:13 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:18 I think the use of ~/.clisprc is rather new 01:18:11 ... Why am I reminded of the old behavior of GCC when it sees a #pragma? 01:18:50 which one? nethack? 01:19:18 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:27 Well, it's more that it had a documented list of what it was supposed to try, and there was what it actually tried, and they differed somehow. 01:19:35 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 01:25:40 Abezethibou [~user@213.74.106.241] has joined #lisp 01:27:26 -!- Abezethibou [~user@213.74.106.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:38 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:29:26 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:38 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #lisp 01:32:26 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:10 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:35:55 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:38:29 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 01:41:07 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx53-1-164.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41:44 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:41:47 -!- froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:44:33 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:44:51 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-134-127.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:50:12 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 01:59:04 froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:33 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:51 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:02:25 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 02:08:28 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:09:40 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:09:51 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:15 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:10:45 -!- dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:11:21 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:17:19 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:44 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:17:54 Stupid power glitch. 02:18:16 *rtoym* should probably get another battery backup for the external drives. 02:20:46 -!- sytse [~sytse@2001:888:1817:0:226:18ff:fe65:ac7b] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:21:39 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:22:05 -!- Lajla [~Lajla@213-84-222-243.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:23:16 wow. I started cl-bio almost 4 years ago. and have done frustrating little with it since then :( 02:23:18 http://github.com/slyrus/cl-bio 02:23:48 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:50 time flies. 02:23:57 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:24:41 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:25:16 oconnore [~oconnore@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:21 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-95-133.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:27:24 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-139-26.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:27:39 speaking of time, what time does _3b wake up? 02:28:01 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:28:35 _3b: WAKE UP 02:29:22 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:29:28 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:29:41 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 02:29:45 it's still way early there 02:30:00 hmmm... is b9.com down? 02:30:33 p_l|backup: seems so 02:31:03 argh 02:31:13 just my luck to be in conditions where quicklisp doesn't work :/ 02:36:33 let's see if SBCL won't balk on tsocks... 02:37:15 ... doing so in middle of full system upgrade wasn't my best idea 02:44:01 Do you still have to email to get quicklisp? 02:44:16 You can also join #quicklisp. 02:46:30 ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:46:30 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:31 pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-141-26.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:48 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:47:22 SegFault|Laptop [~SegFaultA@c-98-210-3-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:37 -!- pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-141-26.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:48:30 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 02:50:50 pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-141-26.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:35 -!- ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:34 spradnyesh [~pradyus@115.242.95.29] has joined #lisp 02:56:14 -!- pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-141-26.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:58:11 BillGators [~cen@pool-173-77-119-219.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:25 hello lispfans 02:58:55 i am trying to discover why LISP may be right for me 02:59:02 i hear it can do things no other language can 02:59:11 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@115.242.95.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:59:15 however i've seen no specific examples of that 02:59:43 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bppafahwhbgqdmvy] has joined #lisp 02:59:50 ddevaal [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 03:00:16 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.63.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:00:23 it is difficult to see from a distance, one may have to experience for himself the various options 03:01:03 Xach: is it just me or does Quicklisp now support proxy? 03:01:26 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-119-238.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:01:58 p_l|backup: not quite 03:02:08 p_l|backup: not sufficiently documented or exported 03:02:11 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.48.180] has joined #lisp 03:02:31 Xach: anyway, just checked it against my uni's badly-done proxying :) 03:02:47 did it work? 03:02:50 LISP is to programming languages what clear is to color 03:02:52 yup 03:02:57 p_l|backup: oh, cool. 03:03:08 i'll finish it off soon. 03:04:05 http://paste.lisp.org/+2GPM 03:04:56 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-118-38.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:14 p_l|backup: cool 03:06:44 Xach: btw, what do you think about reusing quicklisps's base of prepared tarballs for distro packages? 03:06:57 needs more work 03:07:05 Good morning everyone! 03:07:58 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 03:08:00 BillGators: Learn the language and you will find out. 03:08:21 ... How to tell you stayed up too long - you see beach saying "Good morning" before you go to bed... >_< 03:08:49 p_l|backup: nyef is using the same method. 03:09:14 Xach: btw, package for inclusion in quicklisp - trivial-ldap. it seems to even be nicely packed into tarballs already 03:09:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:10:20 p_l|backup: it's already in there 03:10:41 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 03:11:02 I don't know, I can see why lisp would be powerful by the fact you can define things in it 03:11:07 But I can't see myself writing in it 03:11:16 BillGators: Then don't. 03:11:22 Unless I dropped a ton of acid and read a lisp book while on it. 03:11:27 Which I might have to do. 03:11:37 BillGators: Don't be a dipshit. 03:11:48 How is that being a dipshit? 03:12:54 BillGators: There are plenty of people that agree with you, but why would they hang out in #lisp? 03:13:04 I was actually being serious. 03:13:11 morphling_ [~stefan@gssn-5f755b32.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:17 Yeah, right! 03:13:33 I've done acid and surfed the web on numerous occasions. 03:13:49 I could never get myself to focus enough to program on it, though. 03:13:56 But I never tried learning a new coding language. 03:14:17 you wrote basic and then stuck with that? 03:14:43 I write whatever I have to use to pay my rent. 03:15:02 Xach: hmmm.... I can't find it in QUICKLISP:SYSTEM-APROPOS 03:15:03 LISP is really appealing to me because it seems like you can essentially morph the language. 03:15:06 ok, found 03:15:20 But it's also not appealing because I can't change the syntax. 03:15:24 you just need something to make with it. there is no sense programming for the sake of it unless you would learn the language for the reason of interest. 03:15:41 bill: Which part of the syntax can't you change? 03:15:46 LISP has a syntax? =) 03:15:47 p_l|backup: (ql:update-all-dists) 03:15:48 dracco235 [~andy@pool-71-190-1-67.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:19 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757fb6.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:16:19 BillGators: If you want to "just jump into language", use PCL. It's designed to allow one to grasp enough of CL to write fast. If you want to morph the language, get through gentle introduction (chapters on evaluation rules), then go for OnLisp and PAIP (especially PAIP's marvellous chapters on compilers) 03:16:32 humasect: Yes, lisp has a syntax. 03:17:05 if you want to morph a language write a compiler 03:17:22 you can write a compiler that compiles to lisp and learn lisp at the same time 03:17:28 BillGators: Also, you can change the syntax rather extensively, as what you pass to COMPILE or EVAL is essentially an AST. How you build it, is completely different question. No one forces you to use CL reader :) 03:17:31 -!- drakko [~andy@pool-96-224-52-122.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:17:38 BillGators: How many other languages do you know where you can change the syntax? 03:18:27 None. 03:18:35 That's the problem :( 03:18:40 PAIP contains as an example a Prolog -> CL compiler. 03:18:55 it is liberating to think in LISP. it is natural to talk with computers using it because as far as i know, the design of computers started about the same time and nothing else has really changed. 03:18:56 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:19:08 humasect: Gibberish. 03:19:34 My attraction to LISP stems from my experiments with psychedelics. 03:19:53 Zhivago: may i not share my opinions on LISP? 03:19:58 pot enforces abstraction 03:20:05 It feels like if I could get my head around it, that I would be able to program in it better than any other language. 03:20:11 hohum: You have been, and your last one was gibberish. 03:20:26 BillGators: do you not trust your intuition? =) 03:20:28 Zhivago: I disagree. 03:20:32 hohum: I suggest that you fix yourself so that your opinions are less stupid. 03:20:43 "Liberating to think in Lisp" is what I'm really looking for. 03:20:48 Zhivago give it a rest for once 03:20:52 what? 03:20:59 hohum: "it is natural to talk with computers using it because as far as i know, the design of computers started 03:21:11 Zhivago: That was humasect 03:21:22 constructing programs with LISP is very clear and it flows naturally from the fingers. i don't really care about historical reasons but i tried to look for one just ther. =) 03:21:50 Sorry, nick slipped. :) 03:22:03 humasect: Anyhow, that's complete gibberish. 03:22:11 Also, I feel that I could make a shit load of cash as a LISP programmer if I feel that I understand it well enough; because of how esoteric it is. 03:22:29 Which means I wouldn't be stuck programming C# .NET for $20 03:22:31 an hour 03:22:36 And could do real R&D. 03:22:38 BillGators: interesting, how ? 03:23:58 humasect: I feel like if I learn LISP, my life will be better. 03:24:06 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:11 Bill: Then shut up and learn it. 03:24:27 *beach* thinks #lisp members must be bored, or else they wouldn't engage in this "discusssion". 03:24:35 trust your intuition, regardless if others perceive it as gibberish 03:24:47 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:25:00 hi beach 03:25:05 *p_l|backup* points out that we had a discussion about working for $20/hr few days ago ... :P 03:25:18 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:25:28 depending on the cost of living that could be ok 03:25:30 i had to take the long way around! the more i played with other languages, the more LISP made sense. 03:25:54 manic12: Two years ago I never thought I could make $20 an hour. 03:25:55 manic12: it was started by me, cause that's my current hourly rate :D 03:26:02 I'm a highschool dropout with a passion for hacking assembly. 03:26:18 beach: I thought the only way to justify responding to too many stupid remarks was if I switched my keyboard layout to colemak and used it as practice. 03:26:20 But now I've seen such terrible programmers getting 40 to 75, and it's just like.. 03:26:35 I know I'm better than them, not in a egotistical sense; but I'm just more bang for the buck. 03:26:49 scottj: Oh, that's an idea. Use pointless discussions to practice your typing skills. 03:26:50 So I'd like to find something I could excel in with no certifications. 03:26:55 LISP feels like it. 03:26:59 makes sense. 03:27:13 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 03:27:27 i am a high school drop out as well and i had work with haskell and erlang and smalltalk 03:27:46 I don't know anyone in computer science who actually knows LISP or any non-algorithmic language 03:28:49 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 03:29:07 hmmm.... non algorithmic language... wouldn't that describe most languages used today? I mean, the closest to what I'd call algorithmic is Haskell, given it's unholy obsession with maths ;-) 03:29:35 and if I play my cards right, I'm going to have it in one of my courses.... 03:29:51 ^_^ 03:30:05 p_l|backup: his comment would almost be correct if he meant algol instead :) 03:30:35 beach: regarding the "are we bored question": I'm waitin for the code to download and compile :P 03:30:53 ha, my code's compiling excuse 03:32:30 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:32:30 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:32:30 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 03:33:16 drakko [~andy@pool-71-190-15-78.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:01 -!- dracco235 [~andy@pool-71-190-1-67.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:34:43 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:35:25 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 03:36:20 argh 03:36:25 bad connection strikes again 03:38:47 just found this amusing quote: Any sufficiently well-documented lisp program contains an ml program in its comments 03:46:18 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:48:22 azathoth99 [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:27 dracco235 [~andy@pool-71-190-7-138.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:15 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:51:38 -!- drakko [~andy@pool-71-190-15-78.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:52:17 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:52:42 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:19 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:55:14 is there a lisy rsync ? 03:55:14 azathoth99, memo from beach: Yes, I did write that essay. 03:55:25 ? 03:55:48 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:57:17 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 03:57:45 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:57:55 *p_l|backup* wonders just *why* some people use "gray on white" colors for webpages... 03:59:06 link? 03:59:42 http://www.kalzumeus.com/ <--- otherwise very good and informative site... 04:00:57 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:09 guess that's their attempt at decreasing contrast 04:01:46 would have done better to also bring down the brighness of the background as that's the main cause of eye exhaustion >_> 04:03:48 *p_l|backup* can't stand low-contrast text 04:04:04 if the page wasn't so good in terms of content, I'd close it already ;_; 04:08:45 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08:54 so what is an example of nicer coloring? 04:10:02 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 04:10:16 http://nixos.org/nixos/ perhaps? 04:10:17 black on white looks quite well, IMHO 04:10:26 yeah 04:10:27 http://gobolinux.org/?page=at_a_glance 04:10:57 is there anything like a lisp version of rsync? 04:12:02 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:12:16 http://fuse.sourceforge.net/sshfs.html i suppose I could use this, then use lisp to just move the files 04:15:25 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:15:35 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:16:10 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:16:10 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:16:10 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 04:17:43 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-103-52.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:17:56 -!- oconnore [~oconnore@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:05 hmmm... interesting 04:19:15 somehow, I got quicklisp to execute in background (from SLIME) 04:20:09 i put it in sbclrc 04:23:20 http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/utah2000/ good contrast 04:24:35 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 04:24:42 in my case it was an error :D 04:24:52 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 04:25:02 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:25:13 azathoth99: the CMS used on that site has rather readable defaults 04:25:23 it's not as easy to setup, though :/ 04:27:27 what a scrollback. 04:27:36 that's nice 04:28:20 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:28:24 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:28:44 azathoth99: 20:53:47 beach did you write an essay about the performance v perfectionist mindset? 04:29:30 oh oh 04:29:34 yes where is that link? 04:29:43 Hold on... 04:30:02 yeah the werc is interesting I have not gotten it to work yet 04:30:08 http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html 04:31:11 nice, that is it, I am inspired to learn to touch type 04:31:25 it is discomfort but so it exercise 04:32:15 the more I learn python at work the more I want to dump it and use clisp 04:32:50 brb, reboot 04:33:06 beach: in coders at work it's sad that the only programmers who didn't say they debug by either staring at the code or using print statements were the smalltalkers 04:33:32 scottj: Ouch! 04:33:45 azathoth99: specificially CLISP the CL implementation, or CL in general? 04:34:02 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.48.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:35:11 scottj: I often say this, and perhaps I shouldn't, but debugging Lisp code sometimes makes me feel like I did programming in C before GDB existed. 04:35:18 -!- azathoth99 [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:35:36 scottj: I could of course buy LispWorks or Allegro, and I assume that would fix that problem. 04:35:42 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.194.39] has joined #lisp 04:37:38 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@203-214-121-106.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:38:29 beach: btw similar concept to your article is maximizers/satisfiers concept from the paradox of choice 04:39:07 beach: you use slime? 04:39:12 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 04:40:08 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 04:43:47 What idiot wrote that the ecl manual is 'quite complete'? 04:46:42 scottj: how does one debug if not by print statement? 04:46:48 -!- BillGators [~cen@pool-173-77-119-219.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:46:59 The_Jon_Smith: by using a proper debugger, of course 04:47:33 OTOH, I second the "stare at code" thing. Code that you can't "read" suggests something is rotten :) 04:47:36 hmm, not familiar with that 04:48:05 Why does SBCL seem to think it helpful to tell you which character the bug was on, but not the line? 04:48:30 rplaca: I'm not sure if there's a surefire way to tell on which line 04:48:48 p_l|backup: Newlines would be the obvious answer 04:48:59 rplaca: except the compiler doesn't get newlines 04:50:04 p_l|backup: Yet it can tell which character it occured in, a count which presumably includes #\Newline 04:50:07 compiler gets a list of lisp objects. Reader is the only part that is truly concerned with textual representation 04:50:40 shouldn't it drop you to the debugger and give you a stacktrace anyway? 04:51:02 Not always helpful, even when I declaim debug 3. 04:51:14 rplaca: what kind of error, btw? 04:51:47 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 04:51:51 p_l|backup: Not actually dealing with one currently. 04:52:54 *p_l|backup* lol's @ antifuchs' case of "accidentially a verb" in cl-beanstalk testsuite 04:54:36 scottj: I do use SLIME, yes. 04:54:56 anyway, I usually let SLIME direct me to the code that err'd, and it usually directs me correctly 04:55:18 p_l|backup: Provided an error is signaled. 04:57:48 *p_l|backup* starts the room warmer known as "compiling firefox" 05:00:11 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:02:13 apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has joined #lisp 05:02:57 p_l|backup: The problem is when there is no error but the result is not what I expected. 05:03:23 that's what print statements are for 05:03:41 The_Jon_Smith: No, that's what a debugger is for. 05:04:43 hmm, if you have one 05:04:53 The_Jon_Smith: exactly my point. 05:05:13 I'd say it's both... logging can catch stuff that debugger won't, for the simple fact that you won't necessarily know where to look for. And a lot of the advice regarding debugger use is related to languages with much less introspection (usually none) 05:05:34 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:06:08 yeah, a lot of the time i will catch an error and start typing in variables that i know are involved 05:06:47 p_l|backup: That's kind of the usual excuse "but, Lisp allow a lot of introspection, so you really don't *need* a debugger". 05:07:26 well lisp repl is like a debugger for the guy who had his debugger foreclosed on in the real-estate crash 05:07:38 ... wtf? 05:08:19 What I meant is that many older languages have inferior debugging capability, thus the advice not fully applying 05:08:44 p_l|backup: I should not have brought it up. I am no doubt doing this wrong, since I feel the need for tools that are only required for lesser languages. 05:08:47 anyway, I once had a bug that was a) untrackable with print statements b) pretty hard to track with debugger, too 05:08:51 anyway, you can take my print statements from my cold dead hands 05:09:25 I didn't solve the bug, because the bug went outside the pay grade :P 05:10:54 (a return from subroutine in dynamically-linked library smashed the stack on MIPS32 little endian - took days to track it down to that point) 05:11:13 yeah was about to ask 05:12:27 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 05:12:58 The_Jon_Smith: the thing was that other code, compiled in exactly the same way, reliably called the lib without issues. 05:13:35 (the offender was SQLite3, btw) 05:13:46 that's crazy 05:13:49 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 05:13:49 i hate eigenbugs 05:14:47 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 05:15:31 Is there any useful ECL documentation? 05:15:45 yeah. I figured it went waaay out the pay offered for finding the bug (though I still got paid what was negotiated before, plus bonus) 05:15:54 rplaca: I found ECL manual to be rather usable... 05:16:24 It's woefully incomplete in the areas of embedding in C, callbacks and generally describing the API 05:17:23 ah 05:17:41 it seems that this area was, despite the goals of the poject, heavily undeveloped. 05:18:04 *p_l|backup* personally never ever used ECL for embedding it inside other application. 05:18:07 p_l|backup: So ECL is not so great at being embedded? 05:18:59 rplaca: it's the greatest out there that doesn't have a 4 digit price tag 05:19:34 in what currency? 05:19:40 Euros 05:19:49 -!- rplaca [~vwood@oucs1229.otago.ac.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:20:38 though I bet 4 digits per year doesn't look like much when a single sale of your software means a 5 digit paycheck :P 05:21:47 You don't need much of the manual for that for ECL. 05:21:51 *p_l|backup* envies Piano's creator 05:22:13 Since it compiles lisp to C, interfacing was quite straight-forward in my recollection. 05:35:25 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:35:51 *p_l|backup* decides to ignore "web frameworks" altogether for his project and just make a web service serving JS app... sounds easier and saner to work with 05:39:37 Is there a good way to numerically determine if two colors would be readable as a fg/bg combo? 05:41:15 scottj: there are ways to do that, but I usually just use some color-matching service where I "explore" the color space - one of them, which I don't remember the link to at the moment - even included simulation of sight impairments 05:41:40 (though it didn't include mine, though I have yet to talk with proper neurologist about it) 05:41:46 scottj: that seems to be a matter of opinion 05:41:54 segyr [~terje@ti0014a380-1619.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 05:42:58 scottj: you can algorithmically derive whether the contrast etc. will make it readable, but it won't guarantee you that the result won't make people puke from its ugliness :) 05:44:34 that's the matter of opinion. I once had to use the account of a friend of mine who used bright red on bright yellow for his xterms. And no easy way of changing that :( 05:48:52 hohoho [~hohoho@sbm210-128-84-23.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:49:36 with contrast is it just a matter of seeing that the sum of the absolute values of the differences in the rgb values is above a threshold? 05:50:20 scottj: Actually, doing this properly is quite complicated. 05:50:34 scottj: You might want to do a little reading into human vision models. 05:50:44 scottj: it could be if human eye used RGB :P 05:50:54 -!- segyr [~terje@ti0014a380-1619.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: segyr] 05:50:58 ok I'll look for a java lib that does it for me :) 05:51:12 scottj: you probably won't find one in Java... 05:51:23 though I heard h264 is quite similar in some aspects :P 05:51:45 scottj: In general the monochromatic contrast is the important one for fine distinction. 05:52:27 iirc eye transmits ~12 channels of data to the brain, none of which look remotely like your normal RGB data :) 05:54:17 I don't remember now which colors were interpreted how in the initial stage, but what the brain actually needs to "see" is rrather complex 05:55:43 -!- apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has left #lisp 05:56:22 I think that if you consider comic books then you can get a rough idea of how human vision works. 05:58:19 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:59:08 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 06:01:24 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:01:43 tij [~tij@c-67-190-5-189.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:37 -!- tij [~tij@c-67-190-5-189.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:04:12 tij [~tij@c-67-190-5-189.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:34 -!- tij [~tij@c-67-190-5-189.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:06:17 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:07:47 p_l|backup: which verb did I accidentally? and did I accidentally the whole verb? 06:11:23 You probably slipped and fell. 06:12:12 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:12:12 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 06:12:12 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 06:12:27  So that my workers can units of work, in the right order. <--- can what? 06:12:55 :-) 06:17:53 I think I'm going to organise a protest to get our uni to set the proxies better :/ 06:18:12 *p_l|backup* is lost in "find, download, wait" cycle 06:19:54 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-15.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 06:22:32 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:22:32 pers [~user@167.sub-75-199-207.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 06:24:01 afk 06:25:58 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925385290.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:27:27 haha, /that/ verb. 06:27:31 thanks for the hint (: 06:34:44 -!- Krystof [~csr21@78.146.236.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:37:54 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:38:06 good morning 06:41:28 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:47:28 bozhidar` [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 06:47:58 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:48:21 -!- bozhidar` is now known as bozhidar 06:50:40 sytse [~sytse@2001:888:1817:0:226:18ff:fe65:ac7b] has joined #lisp 06:52:19 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-28-255.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:53:54 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-9-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:54:56 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:18 -!- darkestkhan [~darkestkh@109.243.197.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:59:56 Hello mvilleneuve 07:00:05 [and Good morning everyone!] 07:01:17 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:01:33 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:09 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 07:13:30 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:14:09 fiveop [~fiveop@p5B284F6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:56 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:15:51 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-64-102.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:55 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 07:20:18 beach: a question: Would you allow a student who failed (in part due to bad living situation) half of the required credits, but passed all of *required* subjects (failed subjects being from non-core stuff) to simply sign up for extra courses next year to recoup the lack of credits? -_-; 07:20:45 *p_l|backup* is kinda building a case for his professor 07:21:36 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:23:55 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:24:00 splittist [~John@83-206.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:24:11 morning 07:24:16 hello splittist 07:24:57 p_l|backup: Yes, we always do. 07:25:11 *spiaggia* takes off for a meeting. 07:25:41 uff, so there's a chance... 07:25:41 brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:28:12 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B8C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:32 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.172.42] has joined #lisp 07:30:51 etenil [~user@82.45.133.100] has joined #lisp 07:30:54 Hi there 07:31:44 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:32:51 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:33:04 I'm attempting to write a tiny lisp interpreter, and I'm a bit confused with the tokens that start with a '. I know that for instance ``'(a b)" is just a list, not a program, but what about ``'a" or ``'b"? Are they to be considered as variables? 07:34:08 timor [~timor@port-92-195-126-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:34:14 clhs quote 07:34:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm 07:34:30 thanks Ralith 07:34:40 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.172.42] has left #lisp 07:34:43 -!- prip [~foo@host36-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:35:02 prip [~foo@host36-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:35:09 etenil: it strike me as odd that you're writing an interpreter while unfamiliar with some very basic elements of lisp. 07:35:32 Ralith: "learn it by writing a book about it" approach? :) 07:35:40 I suppose! 07:36:15 just like I was recommended to do regarding SBCL arm port :P 07:36:15 I know, it's just a way for me to learn lisp :D 07:36:29 the hard way ;) 07:36:50 I know some elisp so far 07:37:43 but when writing an interpreter, there are a lot of things that need to be clarified. I'd have used the ' without thinking about it, but now I have to :) 07:39:12 Blkt [~user@93-33-130-96.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:40:16 (case (first expr) ((quote) (second expr)) ...) ; what else is there to know about quote? 07:41:10 well for instance that it's actually equivalent to (quote blah) 07:41:20 also that blah will not be evaluated 07:41:25 just returned as such 07:41:46 good morning 07:41:51 morning 07:42:08 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:19 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:42:46 etenil: you're considering backquote/comma here. It is orthogonal to quote. 07:42:56 minion: tell etenil about sicp 07:42:56 etenil: direct your attention towards sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 07:43:22 minion: tell etenial about LiSP 07:43:22 etenial: please see LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 07:43:44 etenil: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 07:44:13 etenil: those two books have plenty about lisp and interpreters 07:44:19 ok 07:44:27 well I am talking about this: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm 07:44:34 it doesn't look like comma to me 07:44:41 SICP is particularly good in several lovely ways 07:44:43 thanks for the books 07:45:00 but if you want learn common lisp... 07:45:10 minion: tell etenil about pcl-book 07:45:10 etenil: have a look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 07:45:28 nikodemus: yeah, I've got this one already :D 07:45:34 ok :) 07:45:40 etenil: you don't interpret 'x. You read it. What you get reading it is (quote x) ; this is what you interpret. 07:45:55 etenil: LiSP is all about implementing lisp-alikes (from a conceptual point of view). If you want something to work through, it'll take you quite a while to fully understand everything. But then you will KNOW. 07:46:20 pjb: no, what you say is ''x => (quote x) 07:46:23 'x => x 07:46:33 (case (first expr) ((quote) (second expr)) ...) ; what else is there to know about quote? 07:46:40 that's what the documentation says anyway 07:48:07 (defun interpret (expr) (if (atom expr) (error "niy") (case (first expr) ((quote) (second expr)) (otherwise (error "niy"))))) (interpret ''x) --> X 07:49:22 pjb: well I don't know about that, but emacs agrees with the documentation, evaluating ''x returns (quote x) 07:50:10 etenil: reading is different from evaluating. 07:50:16 relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 07:50:17 these are distinct actions. 07:50:41 (interpret (list 'quote 'x)) --> X 07:50:51 etenil: 'x is read as (quote x) 07:50:57 (interpret (list (intern "QUOTE") (intern "X"))) --> X 07:51:00 etenil: (quote x) is evaluated to x 07:51:08 oviously 07:51:14 *obviously 07:51:22 etenil: do read chapter 2 of clhs! 07:51:24 ''x is read as (quote (quote x)) 07:51:40 (quote (quote x)) is evaluated to (quote x) 07:52:13 Ralith: yes and evaluating (quote x) returns x 07:52:14 brandlee [~brandlee@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 07:52:16 I've got this 07:52:33 that makes sense 07:53:10 basically ' expands to (quote ) 07:53:32 it's a reader macro which does so, yes 07:53:46 Ralith: that's what I didn't get :) 07:53:48 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:54:08 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:54:22 etenil: what is? 07:54:43 that ' is a macro 07:54:53 it's a reader macro. 07:55:05 this is distinct from regular macros. 07:55:18 -_- 07:55:24 that's getting confusing 07:55:59 -!- sytse [~sytse@2001:888:1817:0:226:18ff:fe65:ac7b] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:55:59 -!- vandemar [rings@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:55:59 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:56:15 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] has joined #lisp 07:56:17 -!- xristos is now known as Guest83602 07:56:30 etenil: that's why the folks have been trying to help you think about the various stages, phases or times that are involved (reading, evaluating etc.). 07:56:38 -!- Guest57074 [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:56:55 etenil: the important bit is that when the reader gets the string "'x" it returns the list (quote x) 07:57:27 Ralith: alright. I'm focused on just quote for the moment 07:57:48 and we agree that it returns the quoted stuff without evaluating it, right? 07:57:54 define "it" 07:58:00 the reader never evaluates. 07:58:03 it = the quoted stuff 07:58:05 if the reader just gets a quote, it'll throw an end-of-input error or similar, I would imagine... 07:58:12 the quoted stuff returns the quoted stuff? 07:58:20 no 07:58:20 I'm not sure what that means. 07:58:27 quote returns the quoted stuff 07:58:40 (quote x) returns x 07:58:48 right 07:59:05 EVALuating (quote x) returns x 07:59:05 and say (quote (+ 2 1)) returns (+ 2 1) 07:59:09 not 3 07:59:18 when evaluated, yes 07:59:23 right 07:59:35 that's all I need so far 07:59:49 thank you all for your infinite patience ;) 08:00:07 note that ' doesn't exist after code has been READ. 08:00:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-171.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:00:35 yes, it is removed 08:00:58 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-15.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:00:58 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-121-106.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:01:25 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:01:32 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-121-106.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:02:19 vandemar [bella@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has joined #lisp 08:02:39 sytse [~sytse@2001:888:1817:0:226:18ff:fe65:ac7b] has joined #lisp 08:02:59 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:08:17 cow-orker [~mw@c541745C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 08:11:24 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:16:03 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:16:17 etenil: well, i'd say it is not removed, but turns into QUOTE special form 08:16:28 etenil: when reading the code 08:16:31 jdz: ok 08:16:50 etenil: implementing QUOTE special form in an interpreter is trivial, though :) 08:17:13 yes, but first you need to understand it, which was the problem 08:17:21 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@sbm210-128-84-23.bmobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:25 a bug in my brain basically :D 08:18:29 etenil: the first thing for you to get a grasp should be the separation of READ, [COMPILE] and EVAL times 08:18:47 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:18:48 well I understood read and eval 08:18:52 after reading, the code is just a tree of conses 08:18:56 but I don't know about compile 08:19:20 jdz: that's what my interpreter does (and consumes too much memory in my opinion) 08:19:23 rather, a tree of s-expressions 08:19:48 -!- brandlee [~brandlee@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: brandlee] 08:20:09 etenil: well, you first do it right, then you optimise :) 08:20:16 sure 08:20:25 my goal is mostly compiling anyway 08:20:37 interpreting would just be a convenience feature 08:20:47 i'm not sure where the memory consumption arises, though? 08:20:58 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:03 once compiled, it won't matter anymore 08:21:23 but that's just not an efficient interpreter 08:21:31 etenil: are you aware of the Lisp in Small Pieces book? 08:21:37 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:21:56 oh, it arises because I'm doing a full parsing before evaluating 08:22:14 etenil: what do you mean by "full parsing"? 08:22:20 etenil: in lisp we call it "reading" 08:22:32 I create a sexp tree for the whole file(s) 08:22:39 right 08:22:45 etenil: storing source as tree is not very memory hungry... 08:22:54 then I'm not evaluating while reading 08:23:00 etenil: you probably are not interning symbols? 08:23:00 which would be more efficient 08:23:12 er, no, I doubt that 08:25:06 Ralith: why? 08:26:39 etenil: for one thing, it's much faster to process symbols and lists than raw character streams. 08:27:00 but really, you shouldn't be worrying about this at all right now 08:27:39 Ralith: I could just read one sexp and start evaluating 08:27:40 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-69.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:27:41 fascinating discussion 08:28:09 thus I wouldn't have to allocate the whole tree 08:28:20 but that's not what I want to do anyway 08:28:23 etenil: that's ... not very much allocation. 08:29:30 Ralith: well that's just seeking efficiency, but as you pointed out, unnecessary for the time being 08:30:10 and since I'm aiming at compiling, it's better for me to read the whole sexp tree so I can tokenize if afterwards 08:30:13 etenil: you don't seek efficiency by going "hm, I bet I could allocate 1k less memory over the entire run of the program" 08:30:18 s/if/it 08:30:36 etenil: The reader already tokenizes it. 08:30:44 vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:17 yeah right 08:31:21 etenil: READing is the process of converting a character stream to one or more sexps. 08:31:31 Good morning! 08:31:34 hello vng 08:31:42 hello spiaggia 08:32:06 etenil: you're considering premature optimization. Remember: NEVER optimize without profiling. 08:32:11 ok I meant compiling it, not tokenizing 08:32:23 Krystof [~csr21@78.146.236.83] has joined #lisp 08:32:25 furthermore I am _not_ optimizing anything 08:32:31 you're considering it. 08:32:31 :P 08:32:42 I'm just thinking of several ways I could accomplish the same task 08:32:47 which is quite different 08:32:59 and if you profiled, you'd realize that what you're considering is a wholly pointless, if not counterproductive, optimization. 08:33:57 possibly, but I'm not implementing it in this manner anyway, and I'm not going to try. So it's rather pointless for me to even quantify the gains this would bring me. 08:34:31 EngiNerd [~quassel@cpe-76-179-25-166.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:33 I just know it might save a bit of memory 08:34:48 how much and at what cost doesn't really matter 08:35:04 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:35:07 Okay, I dunno if this is a Lisp problem or an Emacs problem 08:35:09 BUT 08:35:25 INTERN("(SETF COMMON-LISP:QUOTE)"): #1=# is locked 08:35:25 [Condition of type SYSTEM::SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR] 08:35:26 etenil: another thing that might save a bit of memory would be rewriting your program in x86 ASM with no libraries. 08:35:29 :P 08:35:41 I get that when I try compiling, no idea where the hell it came from ._. 08:35:50 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B8C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:36:00 EngiNerd: what are you trying to compile? 08:36:17 Ralith: if you knew my compiling target, you'd be rofling 08:36:26 EngiNerd: at a glance, it looks like you're trying to do something along the lines of (setf 'x y), which is illegal. 08:36:36 It's just a lisp file ... not comfortable just posting it, because it's homework related 08:36:40 Really? o.o 08:36:45 maus [~maus@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:48 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:36:49 engi: It is trying to create a symbol named "(SETF COMMON-LISP:QUOTE)" ... 08:36:49 I can't help you without more information. 08:36:58 Ohhhh okay 08:36:58 Good morning! :) 08:37:03 hello maus 08:37:06 morning 08:37:10 I thought I broke Emacs somehow... 08:37:13 Thanks 08:37:17 hello spiaggia! :) 08:37:21 emacs can't be broken! 08:37:24 :D 08:37:29 the name isn't the issue, though, but trying to intern it in the package COMMON-LISP is 08:37:45 engi: Hmm, well, it might be a confused error message also -- is this ECL? 08:38:09 CLISP, is it? 08:38:52 Look for spurious quotes, as ralith as suggested. 08:39:03 fiveop_ [~fiveop@p5B283D0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:41 Found it 08:39:42 Thanks 08:39:47 what was it? 08:39:54 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 08:40:17 (defun run () 08:40:17 (let (sim) 08:40:17 (setf sim (make-instance 'simulator)) 08:40:17 (simulate (sim)))) 08:40:40 I had one on "setf 'sim" because it crashed at runtime 08:41:36 thought so. 08:41:48 EngiNerd: incidentally, you can rewrite that as (let ((sim (make-instance 'simulator)) ...) 08:41:55 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5B284F6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:42:15 spiaggia: comment allez-vous? :) 08:42:21 Or simply (simulate (make-instance 'simulator)) :) 08:42:27 Bien merci! Et vous? 08:42:43 maus: Impressive! :) 08:42:44 spiaggia: tres bien, merci! :) 08:43:10 actually, come to think of it 08:43:16 I like that last one a lot o.o 08:43:23 EngiNerd: why have you wrapped parens around sim in that last line? 08:43:40 is sim a global function or a lexical variable? 08:43:49 ...that probably explains my issues 08:43:57 *EngiNerd* is too used to C still 08:44:35 EngiNerd: when a sexp is evaluated, the first symbol is generally the name of a function, and the remaining symbols are its arguments. 08:44:37 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.75.79] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:44:42 spiaggia: thank you! :). The Lab here, EPITA, registered a course for us, it's an online-one. :) 08:44:58 I know that, I had forgotten when I wrote that 08:45:03 kk 08:45:14 of course, this isn't true for every list literal in a lisp source file. 08:45:14 EngiNerd: I suspect it should be (simulate (make-instance 'simulator)) 08:45:23 *splittist* is irrationally disquieted by string-right-trim and string-left-trim being different lengths 08:45:29 maus: Ah, nice! 08:45:37 spi: did that, it works 08:45:38 EngiNerd: might I suggest PCL? 08:45:43 spiaggia: and at the beginning of this October, we have a "real" class too, 3-hours a day. It's very nice! :) 08:45:43 engi: You might find it more comfortable to write a convenience function called make-simulator that calls (make-instance 'simulator). 08:46:02 EngiNerd: try to use the full nicks so that one can use grep in the future. 08:46:09 *EngiNerd* shrugs 08:46:14 minion: tell EngiNerd about pcl-book 08:46:14 Oh ... sorry :P 08:46:14 EngiNerd: please look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 08:46:20 EngiNerd: Use completion, so that you don't have to type as much. 08:46:30 *EngiNerd* has that book, I think 08:46:36 oh, good! 08:46:47 we all highly recommend referring to it, if not working through it sequentially. 08:47:19 To be honest, about 3/4 of my issues with this to date have been Emacs, so yeah 08:47:38 maus: is EPITA where V-Diddy (Didier Verna) works? 08:47:43 nevertheless, it is easier to learn CL by PCL than by trial and error. 08:48:09 Ya 08:48:14 splittist: maus and vng are doing their internships for Didier. 08:48:25 Wow - cool! 08:48:33 splittist: The are my students from HCM city. 08:48:36 splittist: yes, EPITA is the Lab where Didier Verna works. 08:50:04 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:50:23 splittist: :) 08:50:53 engineering school right? 08:51:31 azathoth99 [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:02 good morning everyone 08:53:09 morning 08:53:09 hello azathoth99 08:53:25 (this sentence always reminds me of farnsworth in futurama) 08:54:18 -!- EngiNerd [~quassel@cpe-76-179-25-166.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: For the record: :3] 08:55:18 xinming [~hyy@122.238.75.79] has joined #lisp 08:57:52 brandlee [~brandlee@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 08:57:53 etenil: yes, it's an engineering school of informatics. 08:58:58 I took a new role at work, one of software update and development environment management. 08:59:14 Kind of interesting. 08:59:19 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B8C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:24 xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.75.79] has joined #lisp 08:59:30 azathoth99: So now you can impose Lisp on everyone? 08:59:54 azathoth99: what does it mean in plain English? 08:59:57 Well I am tempted to try using lisp to solve some problems and to see how far I can go. 09:00:10 update code and configs for tomcat java webservers 09:00:17 ah ok 09:00:31 for 50+ projects in 5 colos 09:00:44 currents tools are bash calling perl and some python. 09:00:59 just demistifying the bash is a pain since it calls perl stuff 09:01:09 I find the bash almost unreadbale in parts 09:01:17 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.75.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:01:36 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:01:45 I agree, bash is even more intricate than perl 09:02:10 one line has $$ and another $# neither of which I have seen.... 09:02:29 in bash? 09:02:58 I know what they mean in perl 09:03:28 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bppafahwhbgqdmvy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:03:32 What do they mean? 09:03:36 I am curious 09:03:59 well my perl is rusty, but I think $# is to count the number of items in an array 09:04:10 not sure about $$, could be a variable variable 09:04:28 but if it's bash, I just don't know 09:04:41 I wish I could throw it away and redo it. 09:04:51 I would define all variables at the top. 09:05:10 and do if thens based on the defnied values 09:05:14 well commenting would probably tremendously improve the situation 09:05:26 if the comments are up to date.. 09:05:37 just the flow would be so much nicer 09:05:46 and I personally don't like bash functions 09:05:56 I would rather use a while or for loop 09:06:02 keep it dirt simple 09:06:08 hell even do it in sh 09:06:24 most of heavy lifting is done by rsync in any case 09:06:38 then of course the bastard has to call a perl script 09:06:47 from the bash script 09:07:08 I also prefer to simply define x=blah y=blah in the script file 09:07:17 not use $0 and such crap 09:07:28 cool I can do arithmetic and comparisons with my interpreter \o/ 09:07:35 then perhaps have soem comented out examples 09:07:53 ah ah 09:07:54 which implementation? got readling? 09:07:59 readline 09:08:05 basically you want to get rid of bash 09:08:57 no just make the script dirt simply and readable 09:09:02 simple 09:09:17 this is related to lisp how, guys? 09:09:23 I get really bugged if I can read the flow of a shell script without asking someone something 09:09:27 its not 09:09:50 do you gents ever use lisp for syncing files accross geographically distributed boxes? 09:10:15 rsync does this better imho 09:10:34 does invoking rsync from a lisp program count? 09:12:35 serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06d883.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:38 Good morning! 09:17:28 sure 09:17:45 anything to let me put files where they should go in an asy to understand way 09:18:04 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:24 azathoth99: replace all your bash/perl scripts with an ever-growing lisp dwim script with a set of arcane command-line options. 3: Profit! 09:22:13 in my company they script the servers in C# (windows servers)... I'd give anything to trade that with an ugly bash or perl script :( 09:22:41 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 09:23:55 etenil: I find PowerShell to be wonderfully extensible, now someone just needs to connect clisp to it :) 09:24:49 *etenil* is a stubborn unix guy and will never like any windows server thingies 09:24:53 OK - I've implemented enough of the @scribble syntax for today. Now to separate some layers! (Or perhaps read V-Diddy's Visitor Pattern paper... 09:24:54 ) 09:25:29 p_l|backup: did you have any luck updating & getting trivial-ldap? 09:26:16 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:26:22 Xach: yes 09:26:29 woo hoo 09:26:35 *p_l|backup* right now fights Firefox 4 09:27:47 if anyone knows how to disable the highlighting animation on mouseover for tabs, I'd very very happy 09:28:28 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bniwsezfjvdymsky] has joined #lisp 09:28:50 p_l: just my guess, but they probably have some CSS rule somewhere in theme 09:29:23 p_l: i think it was once possible to browse the DOM tree of Firefox itself with the DOM inspector 09:29:37 or maybe i dreamed it up 09:30:06 Please, please. Let's get back to shell scripting. 09:31:02 or let's just have a meta discussion about topic 09:31:14 Even better. 09:32:00 or let's just talk about lisp 09:33:59 right, regarding shell scripting - hook clisp as ActiveX scripting provider and add good COM support (including CLOS mapping), and you've got CL-based scripting in PowerShell :) 09:34:29 (actually, you can use that on all NT5.x and later for scripting as well!) 09:35:52 jdz: it used to be possible, yes (DOM) 09:39:41 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 09:41:05 afk - going to plead with my proffessor 09:41:15 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.2.85] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:42:47 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-139-26.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:43:56 yay! IF now works in my interpreter! 09:44:00 :D 09:46:13 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.109.186] has joined #lisp 09:51:20 weirdo [~sthalik@c146-20.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:54:55 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:57:22 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 09:57:26 logia_th [~nmo@83.35.117.177] has joined #lisp 09:59:12 -!- azathoth99 [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:02:00 okflo [~user@91-115-193-151.mobile.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:06:01 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:34 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:08:18 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:10:52 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-87-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:11:47 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-87-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:12:19 -!- logia_th [~nmo@83.35.117.177] has quit [Quit: 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has joined #lisp 11:32:33 <_8david> fusss: here! 11:32:33 _8david, memo from fusss: David, are you the maintainer of trivial-gray-streams? I just sent you a patch for ABCL, let me know if it's not good enough 11:33:09 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:46 <_8david> fusss: ABCL support went in May 8 this year. Is your change on top of that? 11:35:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:38:19 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-101-207.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:40:02 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.109.186] has joined #lisp 11:40:52 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.109.186] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:43:11 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:44:46 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:48:02 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:49:35 HALLELUYAH! 11:49:36 *p_l|backup* is a third year student 11:51:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:51:38 p_l|backup: congrats, I guess. 11:52:33 _8david: re: trivial-gray-streams - one should be using the CVS version, then (via CL+SSL)? 11:52:58 splittist: thanks. I barely made it - I lacked 20 credits... then we managed to slip two extra subjects into my first year transcript giving me +60 11:53:41 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:54:43 <_8david> splittist: I don't know. I'm certainly not making tarball releases. But perhaps Anton takes care of that occasionally. 11:55:19 _8david: got your email as well 11:56:54 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 11:57:23 _8david: in trivial-gc/package.lisp it says "too many dots". there is a weird ".." somewhere 11:57:37 quicklisp is getting trivial-gc from a darcs repo somewhere 11:59:00 fusss: that's in the 2008 tarball - there is a #-(supported impls)... , and abcl isn't in the list. 11:59:44 do we need a new tarball release? 12:00:24 'we', heh. It looks like ql pulls cl+ssl from cvs, so why not do the same here? (Perhaps this is the wrong channel.) 12:00:48 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 12:02:16 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:39 tfb [~tfb@92.40.83.185.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:04:04 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:05:36 splittist: I am doing it all for ql 12:06:53 it's the ql loading process that's broken, not my manual asdf invocation of my own copies (self patched no less) 12:08:44 fusss: I applaud your selflessness, but wonder if we'd be better discussing this in #quicklisp 12:08:56 you're right 12:13:44 oconnore [~oconnore@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:18 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 12:21:48 gemelen_ [~shelta@shpd-95-53-170-156.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:23:42 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:23:42 -!- gemelen 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14:13:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@115.242.37.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:13:11 logia_th [~nmo@83.35.117.177] has joined #lisp 14:14:13 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hgxuunhxlyvmdwvt] has joined #lisp 14:15:29 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-134-127.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:25 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:17:38 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:18:48 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:19:36 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:20:14 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:22:48 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:53 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-30-82-253-156-111.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:18 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.106] has joined #lisp 14:28:08 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:29:34 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:29:40 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has left #lisp 14:29:41 HarryS [H@2001:470:892c:3432::1] has joined #lisp 14:29:48 would be nice to have a slime/repl command that copied that last N forms evaluated in the repl into the kill ring, so I can paste into a buffer 14:30:46 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:54 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:31:42 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 14:31:58 -!- oconnore [~oconnore@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:32:49 you need really heavy duty integration with the compiler for that don't you? 14:33:33 unless you say last N chunks eval 14:33:38 Lycurgus: no, just the repl history 14:33:38 d by the repl 14:33:56 whatever M-p does 14:34:15 (as opposed to forms as such) 14:35:24 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 14:35:30 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.152.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:37:49 slime-repl-browse-input-history might be a handy addition 14:38:30 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.61.160] has joined #lisp 14:38:37 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 14:39:58 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 14:40:18 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 14:41:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:42:44 Woah! So much typing. "dribble" is a shorter symbol ;) 14:43:20 minion: memo for Fade: your deepsky account is deadski. donde esta the mel-base patch? 14:43:20 Remembered. I'll tell Fade when he/she/it next speaks. 14:43:28 Jarbell [~willijar@host81-156-231-128.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:31 relcomp: Sounds like something a baby would do during mealtime. :-P 14:44:12 -!- etenil [~user@82.45.133.100] has left #lisp 14:45:30 would someone be a pal and build me a PDF/html of the textinfo sources of mel-base? I am unix disabled atm, and have 100MB remaining in my windoze HD :-( 14:45:33 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-8-248.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:45:42 err s/sources/documentation/ 14:46:15 TomJ [~tomj@89.241.155.73] has joined #lisp 14:47:33 I think emacs might be able to view them as well .. googling 14:48:27 specbot: dribble 14:48:45 clhs dribble 14:48:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dribbl.htm 14:49:10 Aaah. I forgot. 14:49:27 -!- HarryS [H@2001:470:892c:3432::1] has quit [Quit: QUITTING IRC FOREVER] 14:50:49 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:31 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:58:21 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:37 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.65.79.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 14:58:52 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:52 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:58:52 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 15:00:01 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:52 *splittist* marvels at the magic of C-c x 15:04:12 splittist: what's it do? 15:05:13 jdz: adds the symbol for the current def-thing to the export list of the appropriate package declaration. 15:05:58 splittist: is it a new feature? i don't have that binding. 15:06:09 it doesn't exist in the repl 15:06:18 jdz: it's in slime-package-fu or similar 15:06:26 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:06:53 splittist: ok, thatks. 15:06:55 thanks even 15:07:13 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:25 does anybody else dislike EXPORT calls scattered all across the source tree? 15:07:52 Yes! Package data should be consolidated, not distributed! 15:08:59 as a writer I can see the attraction of a defun*/define-exported-function; but as a reader I like the quick overview of intention that consolidated package definitions give 15:10:17 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 15:10:23 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:10:24 splittist: there is even M-x slime-export-class 15:11:22 Xach: Can you add a Lisp meeting for 2010-09-29 19:00 (tomorrow) in Hamburg, Ristorante Marilù? 15:11:33 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:11:51 and slime-export-structure (which is the same actually) 15:12:42 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:12:56 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:13:08 palter [~palter@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:18 Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:15:45 MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has joined #lisp 15:15:48 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:16:14 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 15:16:24 serichsen: sure 15:16:25 HH - the white hot heart of international lispdom 15:17:33 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-8-248.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:17:49 *p_l|backup* recalls that one of hamburg-based meetings (ECLS?) once had the social part in red light district... :P 15:18:14 -!- palter [~palter@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:19:21 palter [~palter@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:55 p_l|backup: you were in Hamburg ? I don't remember you 15:20:16 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:20:58 palter_ [~palter@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:01 Xach: Thanks! By the way, is the list on Planet Lisp auto-generated? 15:21:20 fe[nl]ix: unfortunately not yet, I've only read about it. I'm planning on being next year though, with my own demo :) 15:21:22 -!- palter [~palter@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:21:23 -!- palter_ is now known as palter 15:21:25 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:21:36 p_l|backup: So it is perhaps rather the _red_ hot heart of international lispdom? :) 15:21:46 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:21:56 serichsen: yes 15:21:59 -!- palter [~palter@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:22:44 serichsen: I'm tempted to modify that to add "full of hot, pulsing blood" but that would be pushing it. 15:23:47 (from the term "nekketsu" and the genre associated with it) 15:24:15 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:24:35 Xach: I am asking because the Google calendar is updated, but the list on Planet Lisp does not show it. 15:24:54 serichsen: lies! 15:24:59 (i just updated it :) 15:25:20 Xach: Oh, and it is even red. :D 15:25:23 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@c146-20.icpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:25:48 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:04 weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:01 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:27:31 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:30:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30:26 splittist: theorically, the last documentation generator written by Didier Verna should be able to produce a centralized documentation of the package from spread exports, since it does it with introspection. 15:32:11 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326231.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:29 ogamita: sure - the argument against 'your source code should look like this' is 'get better tools', which is think is truer than not. 15:32:45 Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:33:25 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:46 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-145-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:35:36 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B3271CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:37:32 -!- ogamita [~user@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:38:34 *tcr* marvels at splittist writing lisp code like ever before 15:39:41 tcr: well, there was the Great Climacs Burst of '05 (; 15:40:01 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:43:37 wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 15:44:46 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:45:25 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:46:57 froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:50 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:08 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:50:46 fatblueduck [~user@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:08 The Great Climacs Climax? 15:52:54 I'm using dso-lex and trying to pass an anonymous function as a "filter", but it says the value of (lambda (x) ... ) is not of type (or function symbol), any ideas what is up? 15:52:57 are there official git mirrors of the hu.dwim software? 15:53:33 Xach: what is your model for pulling libraries? 15:53:38 Ah I know why.. it must be quoting the lambda form itself 15:53:46 *Fare* is looking for roommates for ILC'2010 15:53:46 Should I use eval? 15:53:52 Borbus, probably not 15:54:16 Borbus: #' instead of ' ? 15:54:34 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:55:06 No that doesn't work, it's using whatever defun uses so that you don't have to quote the function name I think, can't remember what that's called 15:55:25 Or quote the argument list rather 15:55:29 The Climacs Climax of 2006 was a great time! 15:55:49 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:37 Borbus: what does (documentation 'filter) say? 15:56:50 Borbus, not enough context. Use lisppaste 15:59:08 http://paste.lisp.org/display/114988 15:59:39 You can see how it is supposed to work with parse-integer, so they've done it so you don't have to quote the name yourself 15:59:39 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:56 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:00:02 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:09 Borbus, where is deflexer defined? 16:01:33 does it accept lambda-expressions? 16:02:06 Here: http://trac.fugue88.ws/lex/browser/trunk/lex.lisp 16:02:34 looks like you'll have to define a named function and pass its name 16:02:55 (an awful interface, btw) 16:03:08 What is it called where it quotes it for you, is it the same as what defun does? 16:03:29 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.109.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:03:34 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 16:03:39 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.109.186] has joined #lisp 16:03:50 It does the job.. I guess it's meant to be like the UNIX's lex 16:03:50 Borbus, 1- stupid, 2- no. 16:05:21 Borbus: formulating your questions in such a way that all "it"s in the same question refer to the same thing would be a good start towards being more easily understood 16:06:14 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:06:46 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:21 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-170-156.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:11:40 Why don't you have to quote the argument list for defun? 16:13:00 cen___ [~cen@pool-71-246-108-152.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:59 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-8-248.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:14:45 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:15:12 you don't quote it for lambda either 16:16:05 since there's no imaginable need to pass a value there instead, why would anyone want to? 16:16:32 Borbus: lambda and defun aren't functions, so don't need to evaluate their arguments. 16:16:50 so you don't need to quote them 16:18:24 alinp [~alinp@89.137.99.145] has joined #lisp 16:18:44 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-248-67.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:20:11 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:04 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:23:20 how do i tell asdf2 not to use .cache? 16:24:43 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:26:13 nikodemus: (asdf:disable-output-translations) perhaps 16:26:55 -!- vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:27:03 -!- maus [~maus@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Bye bye!] 16:27:20 *Xach* uses http://l1sp.org/asdf/manual 5x/day 16:27:30 excellent, thank you 16:28:17 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-87-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:28:23 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-87-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:30:08 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.181] has joined #lisp 16:30:21 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:30:42 -!- schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:32:42 DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:55 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hgxuunhxlyvmdwvt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:34:14 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:34:39 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: a morfar] 16:35:29 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.81.159.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:35:50 Here is a random question; what is more powerful: LISP or Assembly? 16:36:15 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:36:15 Alien or Predator? Batman or Superman? 16:36:26 cen___: Lisp is more powerful. 16:36:28 here is a random answer: Yes. 16:36:45 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:36:48 I'm trying to figure out how I can wrap my mind around a non-algo language. 16:37:00 Even assembly makes more sense to me than Lisp 16:37:16 cen___: let your mind go - it is the algolism that has constrained it. 16:37:28 But how 16:37:37 splittist: Don't feed the troll. 16:37:42 I'm not trolling. 16:38:01 cen___: by hard word and patience 16:38:05 s/word/work/ 16:38:18 -!- kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:48 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-74.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:55 There are three opinions on LISP: That it is very powerful and robust, that is powerful but they're unsure why, and that it is completely retarded. 16:38:57 cen___: and here's an answer: Turing equivalence :P[1~ 16:39:10 cen___: In 2010, it is written "Lisp". 16:39:40 and in 2010, "retarded" is written as "[CENSORED]" 16:40:23 opinions on "LISP" invariably suck 16:40:36 Which is what attracts me to it. 16:40:44 -!- gko [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:40:46 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:40:52 People always dismiss and demonize anything they cannot comprehend. 16:41:11 il non-conformista? 16:41:24 More like I'm looking for Gnosis. 16:41:35 stassats: ? 16:41:35 People also dismiss and demonize things that suck horribly. PHP, for example... 16:41:59 ... 16:42:02 *p_l|backup* shudders 16:42:15 fe[nl]ix: yes? 16:42:24 I will not stay in a channel whose members ridicule and demonize PHP. NOT. 16:43:23 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:43:42 fusss: PHP can be done somewhat nicely and sensibly (Wordpress impressed me with it's internal structure) but I have seen (and sometimes written) one too many "monsters" 16:44:01 stassats: what's "il non-conformista" ? 16:44:03 some people dismiss and demonize anything that gets the approval of the majority 16:44:30 Xach: is it good or bad that you should be using the manual so much? 16:44:47 Pee Etch Pee, I am dynamite .. 16:44:55 -!- wvdschel [~wim@mansamusa.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:45:05 fe[nl]ix: the antipode of "Il conformista" 16:45:12 there was this movie 16:45:23 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:46:01 nikodemus, sorry if it's being nasty to you 16:46:26 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:54 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has left #lisp 16:48:57 -!- Jarbell [~willijar@host81-156-231-128.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 16:49:41 Fare: nah, it's just that when i my lisp-implementation-version changes a dozen times a day, it accumulates a lot of fasls for no good purpose 16:51:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:51:22 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:53:18 -!- anonymouse89 [~anonymous@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54:12 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dyvgollfqeimvltg] has joined #lisp 16:54:53 anonymouse89 [~anonymous@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:11 you still need to erase all fasl's just as many times. 16:55:54 in one case, you have to be discriminating by file types, in the other you just rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-* 16:56:40 (and then you'll miss generated *.c *.o a.out, etc files) 16:57:35 but - the user is king. 16:59:07 -!- anonymouse89 [~anonymous@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:59:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:05:41 segyr [~terje@ti0014a380-1619.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:08:33 urandom__ [~user@p548A7D07.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:14 Fare: i have hooks to recompile fasls and other stuff -- and i'm seriously running out of disk on my laptop daily 17:10:27 nikodemus: Time for a larger disk? 17:10:39 maxed out on the spec when i bought this 17:11:12 i could probably get a bigger third party disk now, though. (macbook pro) 17:11:13 remove some of the music/videos, obliterate windows/macos/blah ? 17:11:34 (Only reason my current system doesn't have a larger disk than I bought it with is because the extra millimeter or so of thickness meant the cover panel wouldn't go on properly. 17:11:37 move everything into the cloud? 17:11:57 md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 17:12:07 yea, I'm running out of space on my laptop too. 17:12:12 stassats: Moving things into the cloud doesn't help for those nice sunny days when you take your laptop to do some work outside where there's no internet access. 17:12:32 mostly cause of pictures (who gave ameras so many megapixels??) 17:12:52 nyef: yeah, there isn't much clouds on sunny days 17:13:13 stassats: That, and the no-internet-access bit, yeah. 17:13:44 Cellphone service works most places if you're willing to spend $$ for the ability to tether to your phone. :) 17:14:37 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:15:56 foom: and the slowness. And the fact that for two weeks I had no 3G access on T-mobile until I got an Android update yesterday. 17:21:09 Fare: I'm not sure. The manual has generally answered my questions. 17:21:48 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 17:23:55 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:34 Fare: Say I load asdf1 and an asdf1 system S1 in my init file. Later I update to asdf2, and I try to load a new system S2 that depends-on S1. What will happen? 17:30:20 two cases: 17:30:38 1- S1 doesn't modify ASDF. Then everything works fine, as if S1 had been loaded by ASDF2. 17:31:03 *Xach* wonders what would happen if he made an asdf that never checked timestamps for recompilation, for worldbuilding purposes 17:31:18 2- S1 does modify ASDF. Then you need to (asdf:clear-system :s1) and load it again. 17:31:48 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:32:20 Fare: Neither of those being this, then: The slot ASDF:SOURCE-FILE is unbound in the object # 17:32:28 Xach: that's called (asdf:load-system "foo" :force t) 17:32:47 Xach: that's a bug. 17:32:51 Fare: What causes it? 17:32:52 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:33:04 do you know how old your ASDF1 is? 17:33:08 No. 17:33:14 It's not mine. 17:33:51 I should start a collection of old ASDF1 files that are in the wild, and include upgrading from them in the ASDF test suite 17:34:00 Fare: I had the impression that :force t causes more recompilation. 17:34:24 What I'm looking for is something that throws out the recompile-if-source-is-newer check, since I am checking out sources that will never change (for my unit of work). 17:34:54 I am reloading the same systems over and over and over and over and over and over again. I wonder if it would save any time. 17:35:39 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:44 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:36:34 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 17:37:32 maybe you can asdf:clear-system the bastard, and everything should be fine thereafter. 17:38:06 Fare: is it a matter of a missing update-instance-for-redefined-class method? 17:38:28 possibly. 17:39:05 Xach: I had a thought that in some cases it might make sense to distribute a heap image with preloaded 3rd party dependencies + program source. That would require freezing all systems loaded in the image, because there might be no sources any more when the image is loaded. 17:39:55 I didn't imagine I'd need it. Apparently, gwking added this slot no later than 2009-08-13. 17:40:23 So if you have an earlier ASDF, I failed to take that into consideration and add a method on u-i-f-r-c 17:40:28 Patch welcome. 17:41:45 Jabberwockey [~jens@hmbg-5f766934.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:43 I don't know what u-i-f-r-c would do, though. By the time you reach this point, it might be too late. Maybe try to recover path from the component-pathname and the name? 17:43:20 clear-system the bastard? 17:44:25 \o/ functions evaluating to verbs 17:46:39 -!- md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:58 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-8-120.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:49:30 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.99.145] has quit [Quit: alinp] 17:49:57 (asdf:clear-system :bastard) 17:50:23 gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:26 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:38 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.47] has joined #lisp 17:55:44 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:55:49 p_l: do you have a PROXY or HTTP_PROXY environment variable set? 17:56:21 Fare: what emacs mode (if any) do you use for writing with Exscribe? 17:57:24 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.47] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:57:49 rrice [~rrice@iii.portagecounty.lib.OH.US] has joined #lisp 18:00:18 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dyvgollfqeimvltg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:01:05 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.3] has joined #lisp 18:02:07 Xach: no, I manually set QL-HTTP::PROXY-URL 18:02:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-145-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:23 *p_l|backup* right now translates his crazy calendar into remind 18:02:48 p_l|backup: How do you configure your proxy settings for other programs (e.g. wget or a web browser) to know about? 18:03:29 Xach: depends. Normally I used tsocks to get through my SOCKS5 SSH tunnel :) 18:03:37 right now the tunnel is slightly unpaid :P 18:03:48 Firefox got its settings through FoxyProxy 18:04:12 proxy configuration on linux is pretty crappy. 18:04:31 foom: it gets crappier when google software is involved 18:05:10 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925385290.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:05:12 ehhh, not sure how; every piece of software already makes you configure proxies in its own way on its own config file. 18:05:30 (or environment variables) 18:05:44 foom: except that with exception of Picasa, Google HTTP stacks try to pretend proxies don't exist :) 18:06:02 Chrome? 18:06:37 Chrome doesn't support setting proxy at all, it can get HTTP_PROXY on linux or grab the value from registry on windows, but forget about switching it without browser restart or supporting SOCKS 18:06:53 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:23 Quicklisp has stellar proxy support (*without* setting QL-HTTP::PROXY-URL) compared to Chrome 18:07:36 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:08:03 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:17 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-126-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:43 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:09:12 right, it supports proxies configured through the system mechanism. 18:09:24 except on crappy platforms that don't have systemwide proxy settings... 18:09:25 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.61.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:09:33 foom: no, it doesn't crash when I slip tsocks in 18:09:41 *does 18:10:22 doxtor [~doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.61.160] has joined #lisp 18:11:48 tsocks isn't the systemwide proxy settings, it's a horrible hack 18:12:07 You spelled "delightful" wrong there! 18:12:10 and chrome does support SOCKS natively, I'm pretty sure. 18:12:37 foom: Chrome doesn't support SOCKS outside of (maybe) windows. At least I haven't seen a way to force it to use it so far 18:12:50 did you try running it under gnome and using the gnome settings? 18:13:12 anyone know a more beautiful way to do this? 18:13:13 http://paste.lisp.org/display/114994 18:13:17 foom: Do I look like I have few extra gigs to install a DE just to turun a browser? 18:13:33 but it is beautiful! =) 18:13:34 salva_ [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:51 p_l|backup: I admit, you don't look like a normal person :P 18:13:53 tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:34c9:2cee:b85b:157c] has joined #lisp 18:13:57 OliverUv: (assert (every #'integerp (list ...)))? 18:14:07 ooooooohhhh shhiiiiiiitttttt 18:14:07 man 18:14:08 :( 18:14:41 -!- rrice [~rrice@iii.portagecounty.lib.OH.US] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:44 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:14:44 -!- salva_ is now known as salva 18:14:51 OliverUv: you sound like you just saw 2 girls 1 cup 18:15:00 knowing about every would have saved me a (reduce #'(lambda (a b) (or a b)) somelist) here and there 18:15:10 p_l: I dunno, maybe if linux wasn't so crappy, configuring proxy settings wouldn't be desktop-environment-specific. 18:15:12 but creating a list doesn't sound like fun 18:15:22 I know I've known about it before, but forgotten it 18:15:27 I will not forget that I have forgotten. 18:15:57 stassats: how do you suggest I do it? All of those things in the (list ..) are arguments to the function I am defining 18:16:20 don't assert at all, let it fail later 18:16:47 foom: yeah, there are still some ways in which *nix is like MS-DOS.. 18:16:55 Problem is it wouldn't fail beautifully, it would just venture into unspecified behaviour 18:16:55 pretty crappy, that 18:17:01 which I dislike when debugging my app 18:17:42 OliverUv: use check-type on each individual parameter 18:17:54 foom: actually, it could be very very easy to do, but environment variables aren't writable outside the process... 18:18:21 OliverUv: it has the added benefit of being understood by the type inferer 18:18:27 heh, one could easily make it into a filesystem with such settings, instead of the registry-like mess that is GConf+DBus 18:19:12 (though it's definitely an improvement that you don't have to build a graphics driver AND an audio driver AND a full IP stack AND drivers for network cards AND a DHCP client into every single application :D) 18:19:15 p_l|backup: and also the separate one which is whatever KDE uses. 18:19:49 foom: my personal policy is "keep freedesktop away from my desktop" 18:19:58 spradnyesh [~pradyus@115.242.28.123] has joined #lisp 18:20:23 dlowe: hmm, that sounds like the nearest best practice I can get at then 18:20:44 Anyone know where I can find a list of type specifiers? CLHS is difficult to navigate and search. 18:20:46 good luck with that. :) 18:21:18 I suspect you'll run into more and more of this kind of issue, due to things that ought to be core infrastructure instead being put into DE-specific places. 18:21:44 integer looks like what I want 18:23:59 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-87-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:02 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-87-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:57 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.109.186] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:25:11 timor [~timor@port-92-195-126-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:25:34 salva_ [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:35 Soulman [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:25:39 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.109.186] has joined #lisp 18:27:31 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:27:59 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:28:16 i don't understand what the colons like '(:client (:login aoeuaoe)) means. even though i am using them 18:28:31 They're keywords. 18:28:47 Keywords are automatically interned in the KEYWORD package as needed. 18:28:50 cargo cult colons 18:28:52 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:29 And they're accessible from anywhere without needing to manage them with packages. 18:29:55 -!- salva_ [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:30:15 And they're self-evaluating. So evaluating :my-keyword yields :my-keyword, that is, the symbol named "MY-KEYWORD" from the KEYWORD package. 18:30:25 well, you need to manage them with a package 18:31:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/114994#1 18:31:22 What I mean is that you don't need to export them or explicitly :use a package to access them. 18:31:25 dlowe: what do you think of that construction? 18:31:36 it seems to do what I want it to be doing at least :) 18:31:55 Hexstream: well, you don't need to do this with other symbols by fully qualifying their names 18:32:10 Or is that macro dirty wrt the symbol value 18:32:15 that's what you do when you use #\: in that case 18:32:45 OliverUv: it's a wrong macro 18:32:56 oh no! 18:32:59 why? 18:33:07 OliverUv: I think you're missing out on the benefits of having one assertion per line 18:33:45 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 18:33:48 You're right, I didn't consider that. I was too focused on code density to care about ease of debugging 18:34:04 stassats: I'd still like to know why that macro is wrong though? 18:34:07 Yes, but since it was a sinple assert call, I don't think it was expected to give much information. 18:34:33 I defined a DESTRUCTURING-LAMBDA macro. How do I get it to highlight exactly the same as LAMBDA in emacs? 18:34:40 OliverUv: it should expand into a series of check-type 18:34:45 (mapc (lambda (x) (assert (integerp x) (x) "Expected only intgers, ~S is a ~S" x (type-of x))) list-of-things) 18:35:15 Hexstream: ahh i see, thanks =) 18:35:55 wait, assert is a lambda? 18:35:58 wow 18:36:04 Hexstream: (put 'destructuring-lambda 'cl-indent:method (get 'lambda 'cl-indent:method)) 18:36:32 OliverUv: not exactly, but it takes also a list of place, and a control-string+arguments. 18:36:33 assert is a macro 18:36:55 Hexstream: perhaps other properties are needed too, Check (symbol-plist 'lambda) 18:37:10 stassats: by "being a lambda" i meant I thought it could take a lambda-list and work it like a lambda 18:37:24 OliverUv: it does not. 18:37:32 OliverUv: no, i wonder where you got this notion 18:37:40 pjb: Ok, so that tells me how to get it to indent correctly, but not how to highlight it. I searched through the plists and found nothing relating to highlighting. 18:37:57 (assert (integerp x) (x) ...) 18:38:13 that looked suspiciously like some strangely ordered lambda to me 18:38:28 anyway I guess I'll be doing simple little check-type statements instead 18:38:44 -!- pers [~user@167.sub-75-199-207.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:39:24 .... that's the second time I heard something like that today 18:39:24 In fact, it was already indenting correctly. 18:39:24 your macro should've been (defmacro check-types (type &rest values) `(progn ,@(loop for value in values collect `(check-type ,value ,type)))) 18:39:47 What is the difference between (lambda () ... ) and #'(lambda () ... ) ? 18:39:58 the former expands to the latter 18:40:02 In practice, pretty much nothing. 18:40:09 hehe 18:40:13 stassats: alright, thanks for that 18:40:26 another one: what is the difference between , and ,@ ? 18:40:37 Is it good practice to include the #' for any reason? 18:40:38 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:40:42 no 18:40:47 clhs , 18:40:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dg.htm 18:40:52 clhs ,@ 18:40:52 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ,@. 18:40:57 sheesh 18:41:00 clhs ` 18:41:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 18:41:09 humasect: there 18:41:19 ohh, cool. thanks. 18:41:34 humasect: ,@ splices the rest into the list 18:41:49 Hexstream! 18:41:55 Xach: Yo. 18:42:03 hmm 18:42:39 4 18:42:45 Good evening everyone! 18:43:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-145-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:43:34 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:43:44 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@115.242.28.123] has left #lisp 18:44:58 Hexstream: quicklisp now uses a different gunzipper that should not blow your stack 18:45:07 Nice. 18:45:33 stassats: your macro isn't really working either, if I do something like (check-types integer 1 2 3 'a) it complains that a is unbound 18:46:19 I found a practical method to reliably read/write nested backquotes which anyone relatively experienced should be able to master in 30 minutes. Is that novel and useful?... 18:46:33 Hexstream: spill it 18:46:35 And it's super easy and quick to use when you know. 18:46:42 aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:46:43 but I also see why my macro would be wrong for basically the same reason, any reference made to a variable in the list would be replaced by the symbol name of that variable 18:46:44 OliverUv: sorry, the variable name "values" is misleading, it should be "places" 18:46:53 -!- doxtor [~doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has left #lisp 18:47:01 ahh ok 18:47:03 Ok, well, seems like that will be my first blogpost ever. 18:47:24 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [] 18:47:29 Hexstream: go 18:47:36 i'm interested in your thoughts 18:47:43 I guess I'll just make a text file for now. 18:47:46 l 18:47:47 k 18:47:54 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:52 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-88-10.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:54:34 francogrex [~user@109.130.134.90] has joined #lisp 18:54:46 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-28-255.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:56:34 -!- splittist [~John@83-206.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: while you're ahead!] 18:56:53 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:58:30 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 19:02:50 antivigilante [~antivigil@63-225-203-9.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:59 gonzojive [~red@171.66.86.27] has joined #lisp 19:13:24 gabnet [~gabnet@67.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:45 -!- tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:34c9:2cee:b85b:157c] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:20:42 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:11 -!- DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 19:23:55 I'm searching if anyone knows of a good lib for version/control of documents (and possibly ability to diff etc)... 19:24:02 tomaw_ [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 19:24:59 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 19:26:57 -!- hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:32 francogrex: You mean something that's you'd use as a user or really a library which you'll use programmatically? If the former, I'd recommend git. 19:28:39 ditto 19:29:05 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:29:21 Kaer [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:29:42 Great git hosting site: github.com Great git reference for quickly learning the basics: gitref.org (incidentally, made by github.com) 19:30:41 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:31:14 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:31:25 Hexstream: The idea is to setup a system in a local network with collegues to be able to work in docs together with version control and being able to see the modifications made from one version to another etc... 19:31:43 git is perfect for that. 19:32:21 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:36 git is perfect for that unless you have to teach your colleagues how to use git 19:33:38 ok thanks. I was looking at rcs and then cvs and thought maybe there is something in CL... I'll see git then 19:34:31 the pain of teaching programmers a new version control paradigm is as nothing compared with the pain of teaching non-programmers the bazooka of version control systems 19:35:50 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:55 collegues are not too ignorant... if git is not toocomplex it may be fine for our purpose 19:35:59 francogrex: have you looked at google documents? It has all of that built in 19:36:13 wareya_ [~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:25 but yeah, git is pretty much perfect for your purposes if the documents are of some obscure type 19:38:19 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:40:41 OliverUv: they're not obscure mostly text/word docs but can contain sensitive/confidential material so I prefer something that stays on a local internal network and not the internet 19:41:46 then git would be preferable to google docs 19:41:52 you might want to look at getting a google apps domain 19:42:06 that way you'll be able to use google docs on local servers only 19:42:11 tama_ [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:2457:2cee:b85b:157c] has joined #lisp 19:42:21 I thought it still stored it at google in that case? 19:42:23 but that's not going to be free 19:42:27 Just in your private area 19:42:27 no, it won't be stored at google 19:42:55 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 19:43:03 hello 19:43:40 I was just trying hash-DEK from http://blog.quasi.in/2009/03/some-common-hash-functions-in-common.html 19:43:43 on sbcl 19:43:59 you sure? i'm 99% sure it's stored "in the cloud" still. 19:44:25 OliverUv: google apps for domain is in the cloud 19:44:40 google extra-promises to keep your data secure, though 19:45:38 "cross your heart and hope to subpoena" 19:45:46 nikodemus: ah oh! I was under the wrong impression then! 19:46:07 well then, I guess git is what I'd recommend 19:46:18 there should be libs to use if you want to make it possible to see diffs and such on your documents 19:46:19 getting late -> good night 19:46:22 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:46:24 sleep well 19:46:25 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:46:40 any company hosting its own data is just as susceptible to a subpoena as google is hosting your data 19:47:02 but isn't git also a repository that is out there (not just local between us and the local drive cut off from the rest of the net) ? 19:47:11 nope 19:47:12 git is local 19:47:18 git is totally decentralized 19:47:37 github is a popular place to store repos publically, but it is by no means necessary 19:47:45 is lisppaste broken? 19:47:52 you can also pay github to store repos privately "in the cloud" 19:48:03 OliverUv: ok so for local what do I need (to download) ? 19:48:09 francogrex: git 19:48:14 kami`: The in-channel announce is turned off. Other things might be wrong as well, depending on what's happened since the last time the system was bounced. 19:48:15 it is both a client and a server 19:48:31 nyef: thank you. I just pasted http://paste.lisp.org/+2GQJ 19:48:46 If you want to build your own apps using git, I'd suggest heading over to #git and asking.. I haven't done anything other than using it as a VCS by myself 19:49:03 and would like to understand the sbcl messages 19:49:24 (though I occasionally push my code to my public github repos as a non-local backup solution) 19:49:46 minion: paste 115003? 19:49:46 Paste number 115003: "hash-DEK type warnings" by kami in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/115003 19:49:47 ok 19:50:08 the code is from http://blog.quasi.in/2009/03/some-common-hash-functions-in-common.html 19:50:13 kami`: They're optimization advice. 19:50:51 The compiler is basically saying "I did this slow thing here, but I could do faster things if this were the case, or this were the case, or this were the case..." 19:51:26 nyef: Python is awesome. Just sayin'. 19:51:44 is written in C git? 19:52:00 francogrex: ENOPARSE 19:52:25 kami`: the declarations aren't in the right place 19:52:44 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3E20.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:52:54 ENOPARSE ? 19:53:02 (declare (type (unsigned-byte 32) hash)) should go just under the list of binding in (let ((hash ...)) [here]). 19:53:50 (map nil (lambda (x) ...) str) might also be just a tiny bit faster, especially if you don't optimize with (safety 0). 19:54:15 *kami`* tries out 19:54:49 yep all c. goodf 19:55:17 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has quit [Quit: TheEnd2012] 19:56:39 pkhuong: in what I pasted, is the (declare ...) not immediately after the let bindings? 19:57:53 in your code, the declaration for simple-string and optimization settings are usually right after the argument list. 19:57:53 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:58:28 ... That's an unsigned-byte 37 I see all over the place? 19:58:50 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-64-102.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:59:02 nyef: I see 32 here. 19:59:21 the_unmaker [d834eb65@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.52.235.101] has joined #lisp 19:59:26 when compiling clisp 19:59:28 (mod 137438953441) is 37 bits wide. 19:59:36 I don't see the option for my custom compiled gettext 19:59:39 pkhuong: in the blog post, declare is before let, but in http://paste.lisp.org/+2GQJ, it's after the let 19:59:42 anyone know the option? 20:00:01 Something seems to be defeating the modular-arithmetic optimizations. 20:00:19 nyef: oh yeah. that's the (ash foo 5). 20:00:32 Oh. LDB is almost precisely the wrong tool for this, isn't it? 20:01:06 I think it's supposed to work as well as mod or and. 20:01:34 Still, shouldn't it be something like (dpb hash (byte 27 5) 0) ? 20:01:35 Still, if mod arith isn't smart enough on mod/ash, it'll work better to mask *before* shifting left. 20:05:56 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-170-156.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:07:44 -!- segyr [~terje@ti0014a380-1619.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: segyr] 20:10:08 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@67.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 20:13:07 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:14:50 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-51-136.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:13 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:19:09 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-136-89.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:12 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-136-89.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:19:14 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:19:18 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:27:36 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:32:38 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:33:25 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:38:41 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:43 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.109.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:38:56 MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has joined #lisp 20:44:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-145-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:44:55 How do you call , and ,@?... Like, "unquoting"? 20:45:23 quitains ? 20:45:37 What??... 20:45:55 comma, comma-at 20:46:22 I know, but what's the "verb" to describe applying a comma or comma-at to something? Unquoting I guess?... 20:46:23 i think he means the general wording for such things.... 20:46:27 "to unquote"? 20:46:29 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:34 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:42 yes but in noun form now 20:46:46 not verb 20:47:09 evaluate 20:47:11 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:43 Oh. Well that's a pretty generic term. 20:49:29 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A7D07.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:56 -!- Soulman [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 20:52:57 nope, it could have been splicing in the above example too.... 20:53:01 pkhuong, nyef: IIUC, sbcl deduces from the (ash hash 5) that the result is 37 bits wide and issues the warning 20:53:06 that's not it 20:53:17 more like quasiquotation 20:54:02 kami`: Yes, but the LDB should mask back down to 32 bits, and the compiler knows how to propagate that for the set of mathematical operations you're using. 20:54:23 ... Unless you've somehow gotten your paws on a version of SBCL so old as to not have modular arithmetic? 20:54:32 What's your (lisp-implementation-version)? 20:54:53 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:55:37 (Hint: Anything older than 1.0.30 is more than a year old.) 20:55:39 hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:47 nyef: no, I use a quite recent 1.0.41 20:59:45 Hunh. x86oid? 20:59:46 on windows you just can get the 1.0.37 version, which is experimental 21:00:09 nyef: Linux, x86 21:00:33 wbooze: Right, because none of the maintainers can be bothered to keep a windows box going with all of the appropriate buildstuff. 21:01:04 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02:04 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:05 wbooze: So now's your chance! Build the latest release each month for windows, put it somewhere online, and tell sbcl-devel. 21:02:25 ewww, lol 21:02:49 if i could get my usb-disk going maybe i even would build it from sources for windoze... 21:03:04 or try to at least... 21:03:07 wbooze: nyef is the man who gave the world that ewwworthy piece of industrial software we all take for granted 21:03:23 Time was, I cross-built SBCL for windows from Linux. 21:03:43 *Xach* feels the excitement 21:03:49 nyef, pkhuong: thank you for the explanation 21:03:54 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.61.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:04:00 i just could't find any cmucl ports...' 21:04:09 good night 21:04:17 nite kami` 21:04:23 Yeah, I blame "css" (carl shapiro?) for the lack of CMUCL/Win32. 21:04:31 kami`: stop by abcl some time will ya? 21:04:44 kami`: Sleep well. 21:04:51 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-139-26.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:04:57 nyef: Cansei de Ser Sexy? 21:05:20 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:27 antifuchs: I retweet all your English tweets 21:05:32 fusss: ((-: 21:05:44 why the need for a java centric lisp ?? 21:05:49 I assure you, my german tweets are also highly retweet-worthy (: 21:05:50 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.61.160] has joined #lisp 21:05:57 (full-on egomania!) 21:05:58 is lisp not mighty enough ? 21:06:07 wbooze: 21:06:12 wbooze: for kicking ass on more platforms than we have sbcl and ccl support for 21:06:20 ah 21:06:20 wbooze: JVM is a desirable platform for some. 21:07:17 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 21:07:21 wbooze: also, for ruthlessly pillaging java libraries while just as ruthlessly disparaging their creators on the interwebs MUUUUAHAHAHAHA 21:07:46 lol 21:08:59 dumb lisp question... how can I get the type of some arbitrary object? 21:09:01 *fusss* does that megalomaniac laugh with every jar-ball FFI'ied 21:09:08 (type-of object) 21:09:20 thanks fusss.. I kept trying type? type, etc 21:09:20 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:10:31 type? would customarily be the predicate to test if an object is a type. In CL, the ? is usually p; so TYPEP is, in fact, the function to test if an object is a type 21:10:53 oh, thanks fusss 21:11:04 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has left #lisp 21:11:31 usually, however, when type heirarchy matters, you use SUBTYPEP; that way, you can test for an entire type tree at once, taking the root type 21:12:14 since when does subtypep exist ? 21:12:19 Is there a name for the ratio of the standard deviation of a set of numbers to their mean? 21:12:22 clhs subtypep 21:12:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subtpp.htm 21:12:34 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.86.27] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 21:12:42 wbooze: Since 1994 at the latest, possibly 1984 or earlier. 21:12:45 gigamonkey: coefficient of variance 21:12:48 I believe. 21:13:04 er, variation. 21:13:21 fualo: close enough for Google. ;-) 21:13:34 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-130-96.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:13:47 did I just help out the author of PCL? 21:14:01 You did. Thanks! 21:14:14 Sweet! Great book btw. 21:14:20 gigamonkey: How goes the publishing business, btw? 21:14:35 nyef: well, publishing would be easier if there were more people who actually wanted to write. 21:14:39 :-( 21:14:46 Ah. Fair enough. :-/ 21:14:48 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:56 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.134.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:02 It's looking more and more like I'll be writing nearly all of the first issue of Code Quarterly. 21:15:03 I can write, but only about drug addiction and using computers while on LSD... 21:15:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 21:15:05 i think nowadays writing is even more difficult... 21:15:45 cen___: you could be the Hunter S. Thompson of the hacker world 21:15:53 gigamonkey: people are busy? 21:16:00 gigamonkey: you're making a new coding journal? 21:16:03 i guess that'd be cool 21:16:11 but nobody would ever publish even if i wrote something 21:16:15 fualo: http://www.codequarterly.com 21:16:25 i lack qualifications and only hack zelda 21:16:42 pjb: yeah, and writing is hard. Let's go shopping! 21:16:55 gigamonkey, did you prod the LtU crowd? 21:17:08 Well, if you write it all, I guess you get to keep all the benefits! 21:17:12 deepfire: a bit. It was on LtU at one point and I had dinner with Ehud. 21:17:52 gigamonkey: it's sure that I would expect codequarterly to publish articles of better quality than what appears on cll, or in blogs... 21:17:54 I'm hoping that after I get one issue out, it'll be more concrete for people. 21:18:04 Perhaps there's some amount of self censuring? 21:18:06 pjb: that's the theory. 21:18:22 something on the line of the accu journal for c++ ?? 21:18:29 just in lisp for lisp code ? 21:18:33 My hope was that I'd get there sometimes by editing other peoples' writing rather than by writing it myself. 21:18:43 wbooze: no, all languages are welcome. 21:18:55 ok 21:19:11 gigamonkey: get the data nerds involved... they love writing 21:19:22 data nerds? 21:19:37 i somehow thought of mostly on lisp...didn't exclude the others on intent... 21:19:37 the folks on twitter that post to the #rstats hashtag 21:20:02 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:17 I didn't know about code quarterly, but it seems like something they'd be into 21:20:18 -!- cen___ [~cen@pool-71-246-108-152.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 21:20:34 fualo: I'll look into that. Is the 'r' in #rstats for the R language? 21:20:51 yes 21:20:58 in r-cran too 21:21:33 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:05 gigamonkey: if you get some @s on twitter, that was me :-) 21:25:31 I think the group of people that talk about data hacking on twitter a lot will be into this project 21:26:58 gonzojive [~red@171.66.75.182] has joined #lisp 21:29:27 fualo: Just tweeted to those hash tags. See what comes of it. 21:30:20 are you primarily looking for authors at this point? 21:30:39 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B8C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:30:59 Well, if you're interested in reading it, when it's ready, fill out the form on the web site and I'll include you in my periodic email updates. 21:31:16 brandlee [~brandlee@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 21:31:47 I've got a designer signed up to do the first issue and have spent lots of money on lawyers so I'm basically ready to go once I can get my conent together. 21:33:52 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:35:34 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-8-120.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 21:35:34 anonymouse89 [~anonymous@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:38 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:37:55 fualo: you can also follow codequarterly on twitter. 21:38:24 so no startups 21:38:32 just make money with books 21:38:34 gigamonkey: excellent, will do. I really look forward to seeing it 21:38:38 about progrmming? 21:39:56 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 21:39:57 the_unmaker: uh, have you ever tried to make money with books. ;-) 21:40:23 Sorry, was that a suggestion or a question? 21:40:31 I was going to buy PCL this month, actually... :-) 21:40:35 rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:39 Yay! 21:40:48 that should buy you a cup of tea or coffee, right? ;-) 21:40:53 Exactly. 21:41:08 If you go through the PCL website on your way to Amazon, two cups of coffee. 21:41:15 I shall do that 21:41:29 Unless you buy a copy of PCL and a big-screen TV, in which case I can buy a whole pot of coffee. ;-) 21:41:34 -!- jfincher [~jfincher@nat/google/x-rtqfoelpgqmeokft] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:41:37 you should have a buy-it-through-you-get-free-s-expression-signature deal 21:42:08 or some equally dorky signature 21:42:28 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-235-117.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:43:04 who's going to ILC2010? 21:43:04 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:12 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-219-157.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:04 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-230-225.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:12 Fare: I'll be there. 21:48:25 I'm doing an incredibly stupid thing now. 21:49:02 I'm trying to whip NoMachine's MinGW sshd port into sufficient fitness for desire buildslave purposes. 21:49:39 Raw alpha-quality win32 crap on my head. 21:50:10 I don't know how I keep getting into system crap every time I want do something. 21:50:20 it's awesome I finally have a project at work that requires common lisp 21:51:38 claint [~user@88.247.119.253] has joined #lisp 21:51:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-145-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:52:28 afk 21:55:52 molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-202-29.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:57:05 nyef, do you know about how to get an win32 auth token sufficiently good for CreateEnvironmentBlock, without involving LogonUser? 22:00:00 bloody clisp won't compile 22:00:05 gaaa 22:00:13 [looks for 64bit options] 22:00:40 deepfire: Nope. No clue. 22:01:01 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 22:01:18 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-126-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:32 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #lisp 22:02:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-145-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03:55 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-170-156.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:03:59 gigamonkey: The "email me" link at the bottom of http://www.codequarterly.com/write.html is broken. 22:04:22 dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has joined #lisp 22:05:22 Hexstream: That's the first test to see if you're competent enough to submit ;) 22:05:43 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:06:18 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:07 wouldn't it be nice if defpackage took a :export-as argument, allowing you to map a symbol name into something else. that way if you shadow imports from another package, you don't have to refer to them by their fully qualified name. (defpackage arithmetic .. (:export-as (:plus-op '+) ..) 22:07:38 (defmacro def-package ..) time! 22:11:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-145-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:12:05 I used to think that. But it would hamper many tools such as grep and would probably result in a big mess. Anyway you can achieve a similar effect by other ways if you really want to, like for example defining a new function that just wraps another but with a new name. 22:12:13 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:13:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:13:28 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 22:13:57 Hexstream: that's what PLUS-OP is, a new function which wraps an existing one. but it gets exported as 'plus-op, not '+ 22:14:00 Heh. I was just thinking that symbols in CL are a fairly broken concept, and what you typically want to access is rarely the symbol and usually the binding of the symbol in a certain namespace. 22:14:11 Hexstream: thanks. 22:14:27 Admittedly, I was thinking this in the context of SBCL internals, but whatever. 22:14:50 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:09 Hexstream: should be fixed now. 22:16:57 gigamonkey: It is. 22:18:34 gigamonkey, I suppose you already got your room at the hotel 22:18:38 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:19:17 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 22:19:28 Fare: yes. 22:21:10 *Fare* is cheap and trying to share 22:21:30 yes, symbols suck, CL is so broken. :( 22:21:49 -!- claint [~user@88.247.119.253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:22:18 Fare: JonL sent me an email about how on priceline the Nugget is the only 3.5 star hotel in the Sparks area and you can possibly get a room for around $40/night. 22:22:18 nyef: do you mean the plist aspect of symbols? 22:22:27 or the whole first-classness part? 22:22:54 gigamonkey, GAH! 22:23:58 Fare: Yeah, the Nugget is the only place to stay. It was a staple of Amazon warehouse trips. 22:23:58 foom: what language is least broken? 22:24:14 "Amazon warehouse trips" ? 22:25:06 Fare: Amazon's large warehouse closest to Seattle is near Reno, so it's where those of us who worked in operations would visit to run experiments. 22:25:53 "run experiments"? 22:25:55 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:26:02 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:26:10 hm, least broken, that's a hard question to answer, because everything is broken in its own unique ways 22:26:20 sykopomp: Almost the first-classness. 22:26:26 But every other language I know of is less broken in its modularity system. Including C. 22:26:35 including C ??? 22:26:49 Because having actual symbol objects is convenient, but the mapping of concepts to source code is a mess. 22:27:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:27:09 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:14 Fare: Yeah, we wrote the software that determined how everything moved through the warehouse, so when we wanted to make changes or improvements, we'd go to Reno, give them the new software to run, and see how it affected things. 22:27:27 well, maybe not standard C. But C as implemented with ELF shared libraries on Linux, certainly. 22:27:31 what's good about modularity in C ? It doesn't claim to do more than a flat namespace? 22:27:48 are you talking about symbol versioning? 22:28:55 nyef: would you be satisfied with scheme syntax-case style identifiers? 22:29:15 In standard C, you can use "static" to make internal functions/variables/etc. In ELF, you can use symbol visibility to decide which things to export 22:29:20 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 22:29:40 to extend the idea of "static" to an entire library. 22:33:53 For the non-private stuff, you need to be careful about what you call things, and use a manual namespacing mechanism with a name prefix. 22:34:00 And of course, C++ fixes that with namespaces. 22:34:40 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-87-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:34:42 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-87-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:35:13 -!- logia_th [~nmo@83.35.117.177] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 22:36:20 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-222-94.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:36:23 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-222-94.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:38:46 why oh why wont my nice lil clisp compile 22:38:47 ? 22:38:51 readline complaining? 22:39:01 I dont have root but I comiled each lil lib it needed 22:39:10 there is no example for gettest however 22:39:20 libsigsev has example line 22:39:28 to point it to my local copy 22:39:39 I compiled readline from gnu wth 2 patches applied 22:39:44 clisp compile bombs 22:39:47 gaaa 22:40:01 maybe C can accept the namespace thing from C++. 22:40:02 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.75.182] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 22:40:32 do namespaces allow importing / renaming / shadowing / whatever? At the linker level? At the source language level? 22:40:46 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:10 -!- molbdnilo [~Ove@c80-216-202-29.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: molbdnilo] 22:42:20 brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:45:39 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:46:35 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:58 -!- brandlee [~brandlee@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: brandlee] 22:47:13 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:47:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:54:47 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-248-67.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:54:53 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: test] 23:05:32 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-30-82-253-156-111.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:05:50 luis: aroundp 23:07:29 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:07:50 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-40-82-251-172-184.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-145-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:10:01 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d06d883.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 23:11:13 brandlee [~brandlee@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 23:11:29 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:49 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 23:11:56 Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:12:38 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.119.129] has joined #lisp 23:12:38 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.119.129] has quit [Changing host] 23:12:38 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:16:19 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:18:49 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:19 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:19:36 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-51-136.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:20:34 p_l|backup [~plasek@pp83.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:20:38 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:13 -!- drakko [~andy@pool-71-190-7-138.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:22:44 drakko [~andy@pool-96-224-58-211.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:34 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:30:56 Jabberwock [~jens@hmbg-5f762e1d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:39 salva_ [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:05 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:32:06 -!- salva_ is now known as salva 23:34:19 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@hmbg-5f766934.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:14 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 23:36:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:37:58 Joreji [~thomas@93-004.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:38:42 Xach: The reign of terror of nested backquotes is over: http://github.com/Hexstream/easy-backquote-nesting/blob/master/easy-backquote-nesting.lisp 23:41:29 gonzojive [~red@171.66.82.205] has joined #lisp 23:41:33 So, I found somewhere recently that I'd used a bunch of nested backquotes... And I don't know if they could be simplified or not. 23:41:50 But I saw a lot of ,', stuff. 23:42:31 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 23:42:33 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316055951]] 23:43:25 nyef: Backquotes can't be simplified, you either have the right "answer" in the right context or you don't. 23:43:52 ,', is perfectly normal. My easy-backquote-nesting explains that, among other things. 23:44:19 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:44:25 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:44:31 I have two counterarguments: First, a large amount of the time you can simplify nested backquote by breaking things out into separate functions. Second, the backquote implementation itself includes a simplifier. 23:44:47 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 624 seconds] 23:45:28 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:46:13 For the first one: Yes, what I meant is that if you have a certain context of nested backquotes, there's only one correct solution for unquoting how you need it to. 23:46:13 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 23:46:52 Right, that's fair enough. 23:47:14 Of course you could do completely without backquotes if you wanted to, or rearrange things by pulling things up in a LET in stuff, like PG was doing in On Lisp. 23:48:19 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.48.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:49:30 Never actually read On Lisp. 23:49:59 For the second one... Would it be possible to write the simplified version directly instead of letting the implementation do it or it's really just an internal optimisation you couldn't do yourself?... Like, I guess the sort of simplification you're talking about is where instead of generating LISTs and LIST*s and APPENDs in a naive way it will coalesce some operations together and stuff... But it won't simplify your task of writ 23:50:43 I read it when I was a newb... or at least much newber ;P So I couldn't tell if it was good or not. 23:51:01 Apparently, the simplifier -must- be enabled for correct operation. 23:51:27 I'm not sure we can call that a "simplifier", then.... 23:51:37 Yeah, well. 23:54:37 is there not an end to the crap one has to learn on a daily basis? 23:55:42 fusss: Yes, of course. 23:55:49 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-51-90-133.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:50 Eventually, you run out of days. 23:55:56 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:56:12 Alternately, it could cease being crap and become some other noun instead. 23:56:19 -!- Jabberwock [~jens@hmbg-5f762e1d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:56:47 OliverUv: You expressed interest in my easy-backquote-nesting thing earlier. It's now available: http://github.com/Hexstream/easy-backquote-nesting/blob/master/easy-backquote-nesting.lisp Github handling of long lines is not very good so you might want to Download Source at the top right. 23:57:09 my day starts with a simple aesthetics problem: "I really should make this nice". And ends with an epiphany about the futility of human life. 23:57:43 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-89-168.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:36 weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:55 no, no no. I am not gonna wrap java collections with iterate just so I can write WITH-PROPERTIES, which is used only once. NO. 23:59:12 -!- weirdo is now known as Guest19435 23:59:19 -!- bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:59:41 Yeah, well, any day in which I can put a Ghostbusters quote into an SBCL patch can't be all bad.