00:01:44 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:02:03 peterhil: "sw" ? 00:03:00 *adeht* guesses "star wars" 00:04:07 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:07:58 aloof: You probably meant to ask p_l. I guess Star Wars. 00:10:30 bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:00 sheikra [~sheikra@nat/google/x-elgdgqwscjtdnyje] has joined #lisp 00:13:28 hi. Anyone knowledgeable about either sb-alien or cffi? 00:14:03 perhaps 00:14:18 -!- fmu [root@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:14:20 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:14:28 nyef's suggestion to use (extern-alien "blockable_sigset" int) fails because this seems to dereference the memory at said address, instead of giving me the address of the thing 00:14:40 how do I get the address from the symbol, and not the contents of the address? 00:15:02 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:18 peterhil: Yeah, sorry. 00:15:49 Fare: have you tried (addr blockable-sigset)? 00:15:55 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:15:55 <_3b`> (cffi:foreign-symbol-pointer "blockable_sigset") ? 00:16:35 Fare: ADDR ? 00:16:53 sb-sys::foreign-symbol-sap? 00:17:07 sb-alien:addr? 00:17:08 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:17:11 sb-sys:foreign-symbol-sap, even 00:17:24 -!- sheikra [~sheikra@nat/google/x-elgdgqwscjtdnyje] has quit [Client Quit] 00:17:38 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:39 ikki [~ikki@189.228.116.32] has joined #lisp 00:17:42 fmu [root@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 00:20:35 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has left #lisp 00:21:06 cmeow [~cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 00:22:24 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.88] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 00:24:56 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.15.251] has joined #lisp 00:25:05 -!- cmeow [~cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Quit: Meow, meOUT!] 00:27:07 nyef: oh. You mean sb-alien:addr! 00:27:56 -!- bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: bitsurge] 00:28:16 ... Of all the... Why the -hell- doesn't this dsl modem allow to permanently assign a particular IP address to a given mac address? 00:28:47 tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.13.107] has joined #lisp 00:30:05 because they want you to pay more if you want a fixed IP? 00:30:12 For a -local- server? 00:30:13 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-58-15.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:30:49 pkhuong, nyef, thanks 00:30:50 And, of course, I'm using network mangler, so I can't set it static on the computer side. 00:30:51 got it now 00:30:58 because the firmware developer was lazy? 00:31:01 what's network mangler? 00:31:26 Some silly daemon that deals with wireless cards and is exposed over dbus. 00:32:53 Fare: the "let's dumb down the network config to nothingness" project 00:33:16 at least I heard they now support AdHoc 00:33:22 is it better than wicd and/or network manager? 00:33:40 I ran away from network manager, that sucks big time. WICD sucks marginally less. 00:33:52 which is still a lot. 00:34:17 p_l: assuming your hw driver supports Ad Hoc... 00:34:31 It -is- network manager. 00:35:39 I want to set up a network filesystem, but if I can't get a fixed IP... 00:37:38 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.211.73] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:38:54 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-32-132.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:39:17 Paste site seems to have some problems. 00:39:32 peterhil: www.codepad.org 00:39:36 Oh, now it works. 00:42:01 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:44:13 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:48:35 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:49:39 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.233] has joined #lisp 00:50:18 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-135-132.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 00:52:40 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:53:46 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [Quit:  In our sky there is no limits, and masters we have none; heavy metal is the only one! ] 00:54:32 nyef: windows does network filesystems without fixed IP... 00:54:45 and so does Apple. 00:55:26 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A4B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:55:51 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:56:37 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57:06 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has joined #lisp 00:57:50 Fare: linux-to-linux, though? 00:58:01 The obvious choice is NFS. 00:58:16 With samba, I'd worry about file permissions. 01:01:25 whatever the question is, if the answer is NFS, you have a problem. 01:01:51 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@202-180-88-252.callplus.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:08:41 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:09:51 nyef: Avahi is like Apples Bonjour (aka ZeroConf) and is compatible with it, works on Linux. I use it to connect to a linux virtual machine from a Mac. 01:11:08 *Xach* has to finish his implementation of that in CL 01:11:27 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 01:12:38 the RFCs are somewhat obnoxious. sections ranting about random things. 01:14:02 does anyone have cffi up and running with ECL? 01:17:31 -!- aloof [aloof@unaffiliated/aloof] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:20:39 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.belf.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:20:40 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-1-29.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:20:55 A quick search via google suggests either samba or nfs. 01:21:32 So, still no go. 01:23:15 Xach: Maybe the rantings are justified? I just lost connection to my network printer after I discovered it has a settings web page, and changed its name to caintain proper apostrophe. 01:23:53 ..contain.. 01:24:41 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:27:04 madnificent: yes, but I haven't tried with a recent ecl, cffi or asdf. what is the problem? 01:29:59 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.56.37] has joined #lisp 01:32:27 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:44 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.15.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:35:14 Oh well. I give up for tonight. 01:35:17 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:35:38 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.182.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:39 peterhil: Still have little place in an RFC. 01:36:18 arbscht: it fails to require the cffi from clbuild with the error message The function SI:LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-VCS-ID is undefined. 01:38:13 Does anyone know a university, preferably in the UK, or at least in Europe, that loves Lisp? :| 01:38:36 madnificent: what version of ecl? 01:39:41 arbscht: 10.4.2-2010-05-13 01:39:54 franki-: brussels has one 01:39:59 franki-: university of Bordeaux 01:40:20 franki-: at least, they don't condemn it. Ask beach about Bordeaux 01:40:33 but i wouldn't choose schools based on programming languages 01:40:37 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 01:40:54 madnificent: I have not tried the 10.4.x releases. I know 9.12.3 does not have that function but the development source does. you might need to checkout a newer ecl 01:41:48 arbscht: I wonder if I can get much newer 01:41:53 *madnificent* inspects the git repository 01:41:58 Thanks guys, any other suggestions are welcome. And yeah, I don't want to choose based _solely_ on Lisp-friendliness, but I thought I'd see what options were available. 01:41:59 Mesh [~Mesh@216.201.34.14] has joined #lisp 01:42:21 arbscht: the git repository doesn't contain anything newer -_- 01:42:21 you can get 10.7.1 01:42:39 franki-: if you'd choose belgium, let me know! 01:42:51 Hey, I've been working through A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Programming, and I'm up to the chapter on input and output. I've noticed that if I have both (read) and (format ...) stuff in a function, none of the format calls will print till the read calls are done. 01:43:14 madnificent: perhaps I don't understand what you mean, but I'm sure the git repository is newer than that 01:43:14 your git repository is wrong 01:43:19 Actually I'm not describing that right. 01:43:21 Mesh: force-output might be of some help, maybe 01:43:42 finish-output, not force-output 01:44:21 this is the git repository I used: git://ecls.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/ecls/ecl 01:44:58 which is linked from http://ecls.sourceforge.net/download.html 01:45:08 madnificent: I will! Do you study there? Or work there? Or what? 01:45:23 bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:32 franki-: I study not far from there. yvdries works there 01:45:38 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:39 -!- bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:46:08 franki-: I study in leuven, but that's java's world 01:46:11 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:46:23 bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:09 arbscht: I could try the cvs mirror too, if that could be different 01:47:31 madnificent: Cool, and Java's not really my thing, heh. 01:47:35 "In CLISP it behaves as would be expected, with the prompt printed followed by the read, but in SBCL it reads, then outputs. I read a bit on the internet and changed it:" 01:47:38 madnificent: no, git is sufficient. I suspect something is broken with your git arrangement 01:47:39 Huh. 01:47:43 franki-: neither is it mine 01:47:56 arbscht: I just cloned the repos and there are no branches but the main tree 01:48:14 arbscht: git fetch gives me nothing, git branch only gives me master 01:48:46 madnificent: is your build clean? 01:48:58 that did fix it though. Thanks. 01:49:21 arbscht: it shouldn't be anything but ./configure && make && make install right? 01:49:42 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok071104.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:49:52 arbscht: actually, I'm getting an error whilst trying to load it now... I hadn't loaded up a new terminal, which is likely to have been the cause 01:50:36 ecl% git status => # Your branch is ahead of 'origin/master' by 420 commits. 01:51:32 stassats`: git fetch? 01:51:43 _ahead_ 01:52:01 stassats`: I know, enter git fetch if you probably haven't made that much changes 01:53:36 i can't see how git fetch helps here 01:54:43 stassats`: it updates the place of your origin/master too, which may not get updated if you run git pull origin master 01:55:23 git pull runs git fetch 01:55:34 but that besides the point 01:55:39 git pull runs a normal git fetch, git pull origin master doesn't do so 01:55:50 at least, so I've noticed 01:57:59 if i'm 420 commits ahead, then there's nothing to fetch 01:59:02 -!- bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: bitsurge] 01:59:34 stassats`: git looks at where your local origin/master branch is and compares it with that of your current master. If you run git pull origin master, your local origin/master isn't always updated. git then tells you you have modifications, even though it might not be true. Running git fetch updates the remote references and forwards your origin/master to the commit where it is at the server now. 02:00:09 forwards, but i'm already ahead of it! 02:01:14 it doesn't matter. If git doesn't forward your local origin/master to the state where master is at origin, then your git will tell you you're ahead of origin/master... even though the server might be further than you are 02:02:03 the git mirror is broken, it's 420 commits behind 02:02:11 what mirror do you use/ 02:02:12 ? 02:02:18 the official 02:02:31 (and you don't have push rights, right?) 02:02:37 no 02:02:41 maybe github has a repository too 02:06:54 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:00 stassats`: either case, 10.7.1 seems to be recent enough \o/ 02:10:04 stassats`: thanks 02:10:51 someone should email about git problems 02:14:10 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 02:15:22 though, i don't see the problem anymore 02:15:41 how so? 02:15:52 it went away? 02:16:01 have you ran git fetch in the meantime? 02:16:05 or a normal git pull? 02:16:07 _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has joined #lisp 02:16:16 no, let's forget about them 02:17:00 my latest commit is 2f1e68128e16f332293d954a74a8eb5d5dc5d51c of 2010-07-31 02:17:39 and you told you only have 10.4? 02:18:39 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:18:43 stassats`: ah no, I hadn't reloaded my environment. I said that a bit later 02:18:54 sorry 02:19:03 Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:09 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:19:09 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 02:20:15 cffi seems to work on it, I hope the callbacks will work too 02:20:27 that'll probably be something for next week 02:21:22 but it's already the next week! 02:22:01 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:10 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.228.116.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:23:46 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:24:10 stassats`: I just came to realize that it may take me over a month to get some free time 02:25:23 bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:52 -!- bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:07 bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:46 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:28:36 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has joined #lisp 02:29:26 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:25 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 02:40:14 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6717.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45:46 amalloy [~Alan@c-67-180-89-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:41 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 02:47:49 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:53:00 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 02:55:54 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:53 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:22 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:01:53 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-234-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:02:10 -!- toni_ [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:04:51 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-234-195.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:10:35 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-230-199.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: plediii] 03:13:29 jonSmith [~jonSmith@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:33 -!- me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-239-91.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:27 Hi, I implemented userland threads (erlang style) in SBCL this weekend... it was easy, is this useful? 03:14:51 -!- amalloy [~Alan@c-67-180-89-98.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:15:25 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:15:39 jonSmith: depends on how light they are. Given the way we implement dynamic scoping, I'm a bit worried. 03:16:10 -!- troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:16:37 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-102-110.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:16:38 they are at least as light as in erlang, i build a stack machine that executes lambdas. 03:17:00 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-102-110.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:19 So i'm wondering if this would be useful to continue as an extension to lisp 03:17:31 wait, so are they Common Lisp green threads, or a DSL? 03:17:57 I guess they are a dsl, but the dsl implements green threads 03:18:18 if i continued, i could get a lot of common lisp into it 03:18:25 If it's the latter, then you can always post it and see if people are interested, but keep in mind that there's a number of those floating around. 03:18:40 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:21 by dsl, do you mean, a language that is not common lisp, but has green threads? 03:19:21 I wouldn't worry about getting all of CL in as much as about making it convenient for *your* use case. 03:19:39 jon: Erlang style threads are processes. 03:19:57 well they are little tiny stack machines 03:19:58 Zhivago: only as an artefact of immutability. 03:20:01 with registers 03:20:13 jonSmith: no, that too is an implementation artefact. 03:20:15 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:35 well, i'm not sure what you mean 03:20:45 it makes sense (to me) to implement them as stack machines 03:21:05 because then you just have a stack, and registers to save/restore when you are context switching 03:21:16 but nothing in the definition of erlang precludes using another implementation strategy. 03:22:07 right, but stack machines with registers is an efficient abstraction for whatever they are 03:22:19 i mean, when you get down to it, it is all 1's and 0's 03:22:32 what it compiles from is almost irrelevant... 03:22:34 Well, the immutability is also irrelevant. 03:22:34 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:22:39 except for understanding it 03:23:02 immutability in what way? 03:23:16 process immutability or within-process immutability 03:23:17 jonSmith: many people here would find it natural to implement green threads with continuations, instead of an explicit stack. 03:23:35 The pint is that each thread is its own machine, independent of all others. 03:24:04 pkhuong_: thats how i'd do it :D 03:24:27 You can produce that in a variety of ways, but that's not of interest. 03:24:41 i used an array of lambdas 03:25:00 continutations are too complicated, almost 03:25:35 Zhivago: or, you can see that as multiple threads exchanging immutable messages, from which independence follows. 03:26:22 i honestly am not sure how you'd do it with continuations, because within the continuation, you would have to explicitly yield 03:26:42 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:45 jonSmith: and when does your machine yield? 03:26:57 if you have a bytecode constructed of lambda, and encode each 'function' as an array of lambdas, it becomes much simpler 03:27:10 yields when i tell it to ;) 03:27:31 you could just as well capture the current continuation when you tell it to. 03:28:02 i'm not smart enough to program that though ;-( 03:29:13 fwiw, I'm not sure what the point of having both userland threads and preemption is; you get the worst of both worlds. 03:29:34 hmm 03:29:54 i was running like a million threads of a simple ping-pong program at the same time 03:30:32 and i guess that's the question 03:30:41 what can I use this for in real life? 03:32:07 I wonder if the state machine approach would make it easily feasible to have more than one native thread which execute user threads concurrently? 03:32:11 some of the people here are trying to build similar things for MUDs; others for servers; still others to implement the logic to serve interactive web applications. 03:32:37 tcr: it would... but, again, you get to play with inversion of control, *and* race conditions (: 03:32:57 tcr: yeah, it does multiple processors pretty easily 03:32:59 pkhuong: That view doesn't work once you introduce distribtion. 03:33:24 I'd much rather see actual erlang style processes in lisp :) 03:33:31 i ran 8 sbcl threads with the scheduler (is just round robin) 03:33:47 troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:48 Zhivago: I'm thinking state machines myself ;) 03:33:52 How do you handle special variables? 03:34:02 Lisp tends to be far too centralized. 03:34:04 tcr: it's a DSL. 03:34:16 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-39-10.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 03:34:30 you would have to either read-only, or use some sort of mutex on them i think 03:34:34 jon: So, how do your threads communicate? 03:34:44 channels 03:34:52 like in pi-calc 03:35:00 so you have send/recieve 03:35:17 tcr: DYNAMIC-WIND would work, but will make context switch even more expensive. 03:35:21 No other interaction possible? 03:35:42 well i modeled it on erlang's processes 03:35:49 you could read globals i think 03:35:58 jennyf [~jennyf@ANantes-552-1-20-225.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:35:58 but setting them would be pretty obviously dangerous 03:36:13 as in, unpredictable behavior 03:36:51 like in erlang, honestly 03:37:11 what does DYNAMIC-WIND do 03:37:35 unwind, and rewind state 03:37:40 jonSmith: execute code when a thread is paused and resumed (basically). 03:37:51 -!- jennyf [~jennyf@ANantes-552-1-20-225.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 03:38:43 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:39:14 oh, ok, i guess I did that as a macro 03:39:20 it is amazing what you can do with macros 03:39:40 Jut rewrite specials to thread unique cells and keep an unbind stack. 03:40:38 i'm using actually: executions stack, pointer, call stack, and registers 03:40:47 execution pointer* 03:40:49 -!- troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:41:21 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:41:41 then you have like as struct that stores those things 03:42:01 How is dynamic-wind usually implemented in schemes? 03:42:03 and a scheduler which stores your processes 03:42:11 anyway 03:42:15 this has been really helpful 03:42:20 thanks guys 03:42:41 i'll release something when i flush it out a bit more 03:42:43 -!- zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:43:14 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.56.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:43:34 As a list of handlers in the continuation's struct? 03:43:52 from the link it looks like a C function 03:44:36 jonSmith: it's like unwind-protect, except that you can also specify code in case of reentering the continuation 03:44:50 ooooh 03:44:58 so I'm not sure where your impression of "c function" could come from 03:45:01 wow that is powerful then 03:45:34 well it looks to me like it does something involving saving the stack and later popping it back on 03:45:54 with additional stuff 03:45:58 and if i were writing scheme 03:46:04 that would probably be in c 03:46:15 jon: Have you written a cps transform? 03:46:53 Many scheme implementations don't have a stack to pop. 03:46:53 well, i was thinking about writing a tail recursion transform for the little dsl 03:47:19 i have not done a cps transform 03:48:48 jon: It would probably be educational. 03:49:18 i will look into it, i'm reading wikipedia about it now 03:49:56 i take it i could save the continuation of execution state somewhere, and call it later 03:53:53 Well, the important thing is to understand it rather than to change your design. 03:54:19 There are overheads involved. 03:55:09 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.13.107] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:55:41 i understand what CPS is, i'm not sure i understand CPS transform 03:56:19 i guess you are just figuring out when something is the last call and swapping the execution stack rather than pushing on to it 03:56:39 there is no stack. 03:56:52 What execution stack? 03:57:11 so lets say you view your program as a series of sequential functions 03:57:22 (a b c d) 03:57:42 (print (+ 1 2)) -> (+ 1 2 (lambda (r0) (print r0 #'halt)) might be an example of a simple cps transfrm. 03:57:44 or your current executing procedure 03:58:30 and a pointer to whatever instruction you are currently executing 03:58:46 In CPS there are no returns, so no stack required. 03:58:55 invoking another function, would be like pushing onto a stack 03:58:59 right but in non-cps 03:59:14 and right, in cps, instead of pushing you just set the stack 03:59:21 because it is not going to make a difference 03:59:28 No, that's a bad way to think about it. 03:59:30 the last procedure would be to pop the stack anyway 04:00:20 There is no stack -- start from this point. 04:01:11 ok, so if i start from no stack 04:01:20 A continuation is a function that you call with your result to continue with the rest of the computation. 04:02:08 ok 04:02:11 so it is like 04:02:15 if i had a bit of assembly 04:02:24 With CPS, every operation does a computation and then calls its continuation with the result to continue with the rest of the program. 04:02:29 then i fed into it (go label) at the beginning? 04:02:35 No. 04:02:57 woah wait 04:03:00 See the example above -- I add 1 and 2, and then call a function with the result 3. 04:03:04 every operation does a continuation 04:03:15 woah 04:03:20 I then call print with 3 and a continuation -- it prints 3, and then calls its continuation. 04:03:21 so lets say i set a variable 04:03:26 Which is halt, which turns the machine off. 04:03:46 Is there a way to get SBCL to not intercept aborts? 04:03:58 Ralith: what aborts? 04:04:02 woah 04:04:15 pkhuong_: the result of a call to the C function 'abort' 04:04:26 I'm trying to get a backtrace from an abort in a CFFI'd lib 04:04:37 jon: Ok, I think you've realized that you didn't understand what CPS is, and that's good. :) 04:04:42 CPS is fun 04:05:30 jon: With assembly, you can think of there being an implicit continuation from one instruction to the next. 04:05:35 reading my way through LiSP and implementing all the exercises in CL turned my head a little bit inside out 04:05:59 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 04:06:03 jon: And you should be able to see a direct mapping -- "ADD 1 2 r0" "PRINT r0" "HALT" 04:06:54 Ralith: executing sbcl with --disable-ldb will disable ldb. 04:06:58 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:07:35 yeah, i guess i wasn't understanding the part where it calls the continuation implicitly 04:08:04 jonSmith: in CPS? it's always explicit. 04:08:13 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:29 ok 04:10:31 For what you're doing a stack machine is probably a good choice. 04:10:50 But understanding CPS is important. :) 04:11:20 -!- ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:15:19 yeah i've got to admit, my vaguely magical understanding of programming is giving me problems 04:15:31 pkhuong_: it still intercepts the abort 04:15:39 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:15:53 pkhuong_: it just exits immediately after doing so. 04:16:21 you could insert a break on abort... 04:17:20 i think if i implement CPS possibility, i don't have to grow the stack, and then I can run in much reduced space... 04:18:16 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:18:16 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:22:08 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:22:25 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has joined #lisp 04:22:26 jon: Possibly, but then you need to think about register spillage. 04:24:07 in what way? 04:24:34 (trying to figure out what that even means... hah!) 04:24:46 Let's imagine that you have a recursive function. 04:25:06 You need to store intermediate state somewhere, and there is an indefinite amount of it. 04:25:23 You can start by storing it in registers, but you're going to run out of registers at some point. 04:25:48 it is not tail recursive 04:26:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:26:03 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.7] has joined #lisp 04:26:17 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 04:27:45 Well, it is tail recursive, because we CPS transformed it. 04:28:01 But we still need that intermediate state. 04:28:19 So we need to store it somewhere until we can use it. 04:28:57 You could store it on a stack ... except that the order of usage isn't FIFO in all cases. 04:29:08 You could store it in heap records. 04:29:21 You could just produce CL closures to store them. 04:29:30 These all have costs. 04:29:31 hmm 04:30:19 okay, i think i see 04:30:27 but what do you mean by leakage? 04:30:41 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:55 leakage? 04:31:11 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 04:31:13 Do you mean "register spillage"? 04:31:15 hello 04:31:18 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:31:19 register spillage. 04:31:23 yes sorry 04:31:26 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:31:33 jon: Let's assume that our machine has an infinite number of registers. 04:31:43 jon: This means that we can store all of that intermediate state in registers. 04:31:55 jon: Now think about how we map that model to a machine with a finite set of registers. 04:32:24 jon: At some point I need to swap virtual registers out of the real register set. 04:32:35 jon: This is usually called "spilling the registers". 04:32:47 ooh ok 04:32:58 that makes sense 04:33:02 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 04:33:32 troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:50 -!- troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34:24 i guess i was already into virtual registers when i was using an n-ary array for my registers :-p 04:34:45 Well, in virtual machines you tend to have more options. :) 04:35:11 ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:35:17 Anyhow, you need to answer this question -- what benefit would CPS give in your model of computation? 04:35:21 britneypire [~britneypi@ANantes-552-1-20-225.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:35:42 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-oeqtuzhbyhvtwswo] has joined #lisp 04:35:44 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 04:35:58 so normally 04:36:30 -!- britneypire [~britneypi@ANantes-552-1-20-225.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 04:36:50 well actually 04:37:06 CPS isn't so much important as the transformation into CPS is 04:37:15 but anyway 04:37:22 normally i have a function 04:38:05 and at the end of that function, i will call another function 04:38:16 morganB [BoWRR1Plra@lin113-14.cise.ufl.edu] has joined #lisp 04:39:04 if i do not use CPS, my understanding is that i save all of the state of the first function when calling the second function 04:39:46 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:39:47 if i use CPS, i can ignore all of the state from the first function that is not being passed into the next function 04:40:35 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has joined #lisp 04:40:38 but any reduction in amount of memory for a process is a net gain in userland threads 04:43:11 other than that and elegance i'll have to think about it a bit 04:43:19 not sure i completely understand CPS yet 04:43:43 kenton [~mat@173-162-15-89-naples.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:46 -!- kenton [~mat@173-162-15-89-naples.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 04:57:29 is corman lisp dead? 04:57:42 Good morning everyone! 04:57:53 I posted on asdf2 months ago, no reply, all forum topics since seem to be spam 04:58:02 depends on how you define morning ;) 04:58:20 good morning 04:58:25 good night 04:58:27 good time-of-day! 04:59:06 Show [~Show@bas1-longueuil15-1176162151.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:59:45 Hey there! Anybody knows how the reverse the elements inside a list INCLUDING the internal lists? I am new to Lisp and I have been trying without successful results... 04:59:56 in the wee small hours of the morning, when the whole wide world is fast asleep... 05:00:00 With the amazing power of recursion? 05:00:06 Yes! 05:00:16 Well, that was easy -- glad to have helped. 05:00:20 ... 05:00:23 I mean 05:00:25 hahaha 05:00:28 I know I have to use recursion 05:00:31 I don't know how 05:00:32 XD 05:00:38 else I wouldnt be here asking 05:00:39 then learn 05:00:50 to understand recursion you must use recursion haha 05:00:51 Show: (reverse (mapcar #'reverse list)) 05:00:52 I suggest you try HtDP 05:00:53 Show: A list can be thought of as a stack. 05:01:22 So you can reverse a list by popping of its head and pushing it onto another list. 05:01:35 Show: if your teacher requires that you hand in a recursive method that you wrote yourself, then I'll give you some tips 05:01:49 Thank you :) I would really appreciate 05:01:49 When you pop off and element that is a list, you can call your function on that to reverse it, and continue onward. 05:02:07 your function has three cases on which it needs to act differently 05:02:13 if it is handed an empty list, it is done 05:02:29 if it is handed a non-empty list, it needs to check the first thing in that list 05:02:40 *Fare* committed a typo in xcvb, and a few hours later it was found by the zergling. 05:02:43 if the first thing is a list, you need to recurse on that 05:02:49 otherwise you need to do something 05:02:58 (which will also be recursive) 05:03:25 ok 05:03:42 but then 05:03:45 for the internal lists 05:03:48 do I 05:03:49 I think I mostly get recursion except for uh... when you're recursing over binary trees or whatever gentle introduction to symbolic programming was calling car/cdr recursion 05:03:52 make a special case? 05:04:03 for the internal lists you do exactly as with the original list :) 05:04:22 you can see if something is a list with listp 05:05:15 using listp ? 05:05:20 oh 05:05:24 didnt see you wrote it 05:05:25 sorry :P 05:05:27 OliverUv: you wouldn't want to recurse on NIL 05:05:27 haha 05:06:20 also I think I was finding some theoretically correct solutions except they kept blowing the call stack in SBCL 05:06:30 pocket_ [~pocket_@p1196-ipbf3801hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:06:40 it says 05:06:40 lst 05:06:43 is unbounded 05:06:58 I doubt that. 05:07:04 Lemme copy my source down 05:07:11 (defmethod reverse2 (lst my-list) 05:07:22 (setf (list-elmnts lst) (reverse (mapcar #'reverse (list-elmnts lst))))) 05:07:36 defmethod? 05:07:42 lst? 05:07:43 I'm working inside a class 05:07:48 elmnts? 05:07:57 inside? 05:08:00 ... its CLOS 05:08:06 I have a class 05:08:06 called 05:08:08 my-list 05:08:11 and an accessor 05:08:12 called 05:08:15 list-elmnts 05:08:20 which consists of list items 05:08:21 called 05:08:22 elmnts 05:08:27 Now the function reverse2 05:08:31 Show: Please write more than one word per line! 05:08:54 oh hey weird question time 05:09:04 And the function reverse2 takes a list from class my-list and reverse its elemnts and its inside lists. 05:09:34 Wait crap forgot how i was going to word that nevermind 05:09:35 Show: "elmnts" doesn't look like an English word 05:09:42 elements 05:09:43 elements* 05:10:01 see, you know how to spell it 05:10:05 Go ahead Mesh :P 05:10:13 Show: if you have source code, please upload it to paste.lisp.org and then paste the link here 05:10:14 what is the question? 05:10:32 ooh 05:10:45 oh it was just like, as far as I know, you can compile lisp programs into executables although how you actually do that seems to very by implementation 05:11:08 it does indeed vary by implementation 05:11:14 and operating system 05:11:14 Anyway, if you had a compiled lisp program, can you still use eval or whatever to, say, interpret non-compiled lisp code that you're reading in for scripting purposes? 05:11:35 depends on how the program is compiled! 05:11:38 Mesh: If you left the compiler in the executable, which is usually the case, yes. 05:11:38 depends again on implementation 05:11:44 any of the free ones, probably yes 05:12:04 yeah i got the impression that the executable is just the compiler running a snapshot of the current execution state at... ... something. 05:12:26 generally that is about it 05:12:35 is an image afaik 05:13:46 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gngvedzjazgupatp] has joined #lisp 05:18:25 Therefore...what would be say a regular implementation of a reverse function in lisp without using mapcar but would reverse the elements of the internal lists 05:18:58 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:19:08 Show: What do you mean by "regular"? 05:19:13 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 05:19:29 As in without using a class definition 05:19:52 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:20:31 Show: If you want all levels reversed it would use mapcar, like this: (defun revers-all (list) (if (atom list) list (reverse (mapcar #'reverse-all list)))) 05:21:19 -!- jonSmith [~jonSmith@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:26:07 s/revers-all/reverse-all/ i presume 05:26:26 Right, sorry. Didn't test it either. 05:27:33 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:27:57 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 05:29:44 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cdjaelzcprfvkjrh] has joined #lisp 05:30:14 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:31:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:35:17 For the record: just built 1.0.42.42 on linux x86-64, and tests went through just fine. 05:35:24 Show: I'm not sure how you'd manage to involve a class definition. 05:37:25 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-169.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:37:28 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:37:28 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-169.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:37:41 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 05:39:52 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:40:10 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:41:46 -!- tessier_ is now known as tessier 05:45:17 How come Ralith? 05:45:23 -!- Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:45:40 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:47:42 Show: because that's a complex, high level construct, and reversing a list is a very simple, straightforward procedure. 05:47:51 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:48:39 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-1-29.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:49:22 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-14-221.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:51:24 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-134-221.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:52:53 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:53:36 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 05:53:50 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:54:09 -!- pocket_ [~pocket_@p1196-ipbf3801hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:54:13 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-14-221.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:54:53 -!- lightbulb [~null@ppp-70-128-101-251.dsl.tulsok.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:58:25 idea_squirrel [idea_squir@95.89.164.27] has joined #lisp 05:59:00 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cdjaelzcprfvkjrh] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:03:30 aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:06:14 timor [~timor@port-92-195-172-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:06:35 slyrus_ [~slyrus@h-74-1-184-14.snfccasy.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:32 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-166-140-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:22 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-134-221.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:17:34 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:53 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@h-74-1-184-14.snfccasy.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:21:35 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-172-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:22:45 Anybody decent in ruby? As let's say I want to match a random string using regular expressing 06:22:50 expression* 06:23:00 ruby is off-topic 06:30:03 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:30:29 good morning 06:34:48 -!- Show [~Show@bas1-longueuil15-1176162151.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:35:01 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:35:41 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:19 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:44:38 -!- idea_squirrel [idea_squir@95.89.164.27] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:46:09 Hello mvilleneuve 06:48:27 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:56:18 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:56:33 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 06:57:10 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:57:25 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.37] has joined #lisp 07:00:50 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-166-140-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:01:13 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:03:41 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:41 revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:04:47 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:05:44 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:27 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:12:01 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:13:07 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 07:15:12 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:15:43 `26 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has joined #lisp 07:16:05 -!- `26 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/26/x-1186543] has left #lisp 07:17:47 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:18:40 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:48 -!- Mesh [~Mesh@216.201.34.14] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Go on, try it!] 07:22:50 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-13369.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 07:24:43 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:26:01 SegFault|Laptop [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:38 -!- revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:28:38 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 07:29:44 rambler [~popat@adsl-71-132-134-128.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:08 hello 07:30:31 hello rambler 07:31:03 rambler: I don't recognize your nick. Are you new here? 07:31:10 yep 07:31:19 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:31:21 just learned about this from cliki 07:31:32 revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:31:35 also kind of new to irc 07:31:43 But not to Lisp? 07:31:47 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.32] has joined #lisp 07:32:12 i learned lisp in college and wrote a few things but it was before common lisp 07:32:27 the lisp i learned was maclisp and later scheme 07:32:42 rambler: Sounds like we followed the same path! :) 07:32:50 cool 07:33:14 i'm thinking of using lisp again for personal stuff 07:33:20 Actually, I learned a little Interlisp at the university, and I learned Franz Lisp before I learned Scheme. 07:33:31 ah 07:34:09 Lisp is a pretty good language for personal stuff because you can get things done pretty quickly. 07:34:21 seems like things are nice now 07:34:30 not much work to get sbcl and slime working 07:34:43 mostly just apt-get in my ubuntu 07:35:14 haven't yet gotten going fully though 07:35:19 i need a project for that 07:35:44 rambler: Unfortunately, you will get some old versions that way. We recommend clbuild instead. 07:35:55 pkhuong_: you around? 07:36:12 clbuild? 07:36:22 minion: tell rambler about clbuild 07:36:23 rambler: please see clbuild: clbuild is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 07:36:39 cool, thx 07:37:22 I've got a C dynamic lib I'm calling from SBCL that's taking the image down on assert failure; anyone know how to get a backtrace from that? 07:37:35 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:38:49 'break abort' in gdb doesn't appear to do anything 07:40:32 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:40:41 nor does breaking on __assert_fail or __assert_perror_fail 07:42:27 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:03 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:50:03 -!- morganB [BoWRR1Plra@lin113-14.cise.ufl.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:47 how does one search for re-usable common lisp libraries / data structures / algorithms? i guess there's always google :-) 07:52:12 rambler: Go to Cliki or ask here. 07:52:48 rambler: It is good to ask here, because people will tell you about things you can't find out on a web page, such as if the library is maintained, or which one to choose if there are several. 07:53:00 ok -- i'm interested in tries on characters (unicode) 07:53:43 rambler: Interesting, what are you going to do with it? 07:55:26 well in the longer term it would be work-related, but for now i'd like to experiment with (say) a simple language model or n-gram model for spelling correction, as an initiation project 07:56:08 initially i can work with english only 07:56:34 but i'd want the plumbing to be there for arbitrary unicode, including composed characters 07:56:58 i've already tried out some simple tests in sbcl and if the locale is set properly it seems okay with unicode 07:57:06 rambler: That's probably a bad idea. 07:57:06 Actually, a trie is such a simple data structure, it would probably take you longer to find an existing one than to write the code yourself. 07:57:34 rambler: The alphabet size with unicode is extremely large. I recommend that you use tries upon utf-8 strings instead. 07:57:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:58:04 thx beach, will do 07:58:15 not sure i understood zhivago 07:58:19 Zhivago: Why is that? 07:58:37 Zhivago: I mean, why is it that a large alphabet is a problem? 07:59:53 beach: Well, you need to make a decision about the expected branch density in the trie. 08:00:17 Zhivago: I'm sorry, but I don't see why. 08:00:24 Fair enough. 08:00:30 ah, you mean branch on each octet 08:00:46 sure, i could do that i guess but the semantics aren't convenient 08:00:47 Zhivago: You could just store a hash table in each node. 08:00:52 rambler: Yes, then you can make use of structures such as array mapped trees. 08:01:06 rambler: Bagwell has a nice paper on it. 08:01:19 beach: Yes, and I could hammer nails into my head. 08:01:25 beach: I don't think that either would be a good idea. 08:01:30 Zhivago: What kind of a remark is that? 08:01:37 An apropos one. 08:01:56 I see absolutely no problem with a hash table in each node. 08:02:07 what an amusing scrollback, i enjoyed that. 08:02:39 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:02:42 In a trie, the branch density tends to drop off relatively quickly as the number of suffixes diminishes. 08:03:05 Using a hash-table for each node would be extremely inefficient in the majority of cases. 08:03:34 ok, i saw a bagwell "ideal hash trees" paper in search results but the pdf doesn't respond yet -- is that the one? 08:04:05 Zhivago: You don't have to have the same data structure in every node. You can have a hash table where the node has many children and a list or a single character otherwise. 08:04:26 -!- JesterSks [~user@pool-72-66-104-166.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04:32 makes sense 08:05:10 Fast And Space Efficient Trie Searches 08:05:23 beach: So you're not talking about using a hash-table in each node, then. 08:05:40 beach: Hmm, I wonder if this is getting back to the branch density being significant ... 08:06:10 It is usually much simpler to pick a reasonably small alphabet size for the trie and then to encode your data into that alphabet. 08:06:18 Particularly if you're using a compact trie. 08:06:38 http://lamp.epfl.ch/papers/triesearches.pdf.gz <- there you go. 08:06:47 He might have later stuff that is also relevant. 08:08:48 If you're serious about that, then you might also want to think about DAWGs. 08:10:20 I'd tend to suggest working in utf-8 rather than unicode code points for that kind of problem in general. 08:11:04 i'm familiar with some of the early work on dawgs (late 80s) 08:11:27 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:11:52 my longer-term requirements will need more general machinery but i'd like to learn about the act stuff etc., so thanks for the bagwell paper ptr 08:12:23 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-198-221.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:52 okay, i'm a tentative project plan is crystallizing here 08:15:49 i'll compare a few methods of testing whether a substring has been seen in a document 08:16:49 is that a sensible task? or do i need to say "testing whether a 'word' has is in a document" 08:17:13 e-future_ [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 08:17:14 i'd like to bypass tokenization (e.g., consider chinese) 08:17:21 I suggest "Testing to see if an n-gram is present in a document". 08:17:31 ok, sounds good 08:17:34 Or 1-gram if you want to restrict to that. 08:17:40 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:18:02 You can use degenerate gramming -- each character as a gram. 08:18:07 i'm thinking at the character level 08:18:11 yep 08:18:20 With 3-5 grams then basic chinese should fall out. 08:18:29 sounds good 08:19:00 You will have more difficulty with Korean, where morphological boundaries frequently occur within characters. 08:19:19 -!- e-future_ [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Client Quit] 08:19:22 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:19:45 ah 08:20:02 but if i'm not interested in querying for lemmas, only surface forms? 08:21:00 What is a surface form? :) 08:21:20 The distinctions you expect do not hold in general. 08:21:34 not sure i'm using the right terminology here -- i meant the morphologically inflected forms 08:21:44 What's the difference between a word and a morpheme? 08:22:17 morpheme i guess is the smallest orthographic element that has meaning 08:22:27 e.g., could be a prefix, etc 08:23:01 Sure, now how do you tell how many words a given morpheme sequence corresponds to? 08:23:22 not sure 08:23:26 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 08:23:29 why would we want to though? 08:23:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 08:23:49 Well, if you can't, then you can't very well break text up into meaningful units. 08:23:54 i see morphological analysis and tokenization as distinct (albeit related) 08:24:20 that's okay -- i just pick arbitrary unicode-n-grams for this test 08:24:46 Yeah, but that only works if your n-grams are sufficiently fine grained to capture the basic morphological structure. 08:24:46 not sure if it makes sense, but that's what i'm thinking 08:24:56 That's usually the case, but not always. 08:25:02 Anyhow, good luck. 08:25:22 thanks, especially for the bagwell ref 08:26:22 You might also be interested in shingling. 08:26:59 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 08:27:18 yes, i've heard about that 08:27:25 duplicate detection 08:27:38 locality-sensitive hashing too 08:27:44 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@host86-145-59-119.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:28:04 sounds like a lot of neat stuff to look at! 08:28:12 best of all, i get to re-learn lisp 08:28:34 i should take a two-week vacation so i can focus on it 08:28:50 -!- _8david` [~user@port-92-195-2-146.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:28:55 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 08:29:39 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:29:54 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 08:33:20 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:35:21 i guess it would be useful at some point to see some examples of how to open a file stream for input utf-8, read it incrementally, what should be a node in the trie (use defstruct?), etc. -- nice to see some example code 08:36:31 i guess the way to do that would be to poke around 08:37:43 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 08:38:00 i saw some user-contributed utility code from 2003 or so on the allegro / franz site, but it didn't look that great -- porter stemmer, a few dubious utilities to represent binary numbers using run-length encoding, etc 08:38:11 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@224-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:38:29 maybe i should just go through seibel's book 08:39:04 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.15] has joined #lisp 08:42:11 good night all - thanks again beach and zhivago if you're still here - see you again sometime 08:42:38 Welcome, good luck. 08:42:59 -!- rambler [~popat@adsl-71-132-134-128.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 08:51:46 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:02:13 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] 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Yuuhi [benni@p5483AAF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:53 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:13:02 gz__ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:13:33 davazp [~user@83.55.182.251] has joined #lisp 11:13:55 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 11:13:56 -!- gz__ is now known as gz 11:14:08 rambler: I just made a trie implementation on weekend, but I'm also learning Lisp so it may not be the cleaniest one. 11:14:32 -!- gz_ [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 11:16:01 Couldn't you use a trie for looking up Unicode characters? I mean All the codes start up with first 8 bytes, and certain byte values indicate longer codes. Also nearly not not all of the 1 M+ Unicode character space is used. 11:16:15 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:16:15 -!- gz__ is now known as gz 11:16:19 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:16:38 I mean using a separate trie for looking up when a node key should be single or multiple bytes 11:17:15 you could use a trie on (suitably canonicalized) utf-8, actually. 11:17:40 Here is my (almost finished) tre impl.: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113321 11:19:11 peterhil: I suppose it's OK to give you feedback on that code? 11:19:25 See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapping_of_Unicode_characters 11:19:48 beach`: Yes, it is and I already got it last night. 11:19:52 :-) 11:19:56 -!- xan_ [~xan@183.139.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:22:22 Ah, OK. Anyway, indentation is nonstandard; use two `;' if aligned with code; use (1+ depth) rather than (+ 1 depth); consider `cond' when your `if' would otherwise need progn; don't put a `)' by itself on a line. 11:24:06 -!- beach` is now known as beach 11:24:49 ost`` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 11:24:50 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:56 And don't put a series of )s by themselves on a line either 11:24:59 There is no need to use (return-from find-seq nil) the second time. Just write nil. 11:25:52 And instead of (when mumble (return-from block val)) thing say (if mumble val thing) 11:26:52 There is more than one occurence of that. 11:31:08 beach: depends... having the when as guard can help. 11:32:01 pkhuong_: Not in this case. It forces the reader to read the entire body of when before knowing that the expression that follows can never be evaluated when the condition in the when is true. 11:33:11 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-135-132.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:36:25 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:37:01 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 11:38:12 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:38:22 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-135-132.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:43 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:44:27 beach: I will fix those. The orhpan parens are there, because there is not good enough lsip mode on TextMate... 11:44:33 lisp mode, even 11:45:13 lithp mode ;) 11:47:41 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 11:50:58 peterhil_: So you indent and count parentheses manually? 11:51:04 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:51:22 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f194.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:26 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 11:53:00 Builds character. 11:54:30 Oh damn, rambler left already.... It seems we could have some similar interests. I want to make a some kind of grammar model for automatically inferencing structrual features about text data. 11:55:11 beach: Yes, with the help of some very basic lisp bundle. 11:55:24 beach: fairly sure textmate at least does parentheses matching 11:55:54 peterhil_: it'd be well worth having a look at emacs/SLIME 11:55:57 Yes it does with the bundle. But there really could be a way to use paredit or some more sophisticated bundle. 11:56:09 peterhil_: You can ask minion to leave a memo for rambler like this: "minion: memo for rambler: bla bla bla" 11:56:20 I know... I will eventually. 11:57:13 actually, I wonder would swank integration be possible for textmate... 11:57:42 minion: memo for rambler: It seems we could have some similar interests. I want to make a some kind of grammar model for automatically inferencing structrual features about text data. I will use this model for text data compression and maybe to some other applications also. 11:57:42 Remembered. I'll tell rambler when he/she/it next speaks. 12:00:07 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:00:34 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:01:52 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.182.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:02:07 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:02:19 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:46 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:04:41 minion: memo for rambler: I have some ideas for syllabification, based on clustering the symbols using maximum entropy principle into two (eg. vowels and consonants) or more groups. 12:04:41 Remembered. I'll tell rambler when he/she/it next speaks. 12:13:55 brickhazel [~brickhaze@63-144-132-78.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:44 peter: Won't work for English. 12:18:07 How come? 12:18:16 Consider a syllable such as "through". 12:18:33 There is nucles of o 12:18:39 It is one syllable 12:19:07 "nucles" ? 12:19:09 Sure, but why do you think that a maximum entropy system will think so? 12:19:16 nucleus. 12:19:17 nucleus 12:19:29 When I have alphabets in two groups, with one group having o, there is no problem 12:19:41 There is more to it... :-) 12:19:47 Then you're not using maximum entropy -- you're using a heuristic. 12:20:13 That's true. MEP is just a tool. 12:20:13 Just remember that there are over 12,000 syllables in English. :) 12:21:55 "like" is another nice syllable. 12:22:05 Yes, but not all in the same text... Remember I want to do the syllabification automatically. :-) 12:22:50 "Like" Poses more of a problem, and the symbl clustering + MEP method alone won't work with it. 12:22:52 The problem is that to do syllabification in English requires knowledge of English spelling and phonology. 12:24:15 -!- segv [~mb@p4FC1B5F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:24:17 Good luck, bbl. :) 12:24:29 Well, anyway my intent is to make efficient text data compression, not necessarily linguistically correct model. 12:28:46 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gngvedzjazgupatp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:29:33 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-24-249.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:30:03 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:30:43 segv [~mb@p54BE7670.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:19 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-bgrsumeppedtjleg] has joined #lisp 12:31:49 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-32-132.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:38:53 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:39:44 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 12:46:37 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:51:32 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.34] has joined #lisp 12:52:46 -!- ike` [~user@c-71-56-115-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:59:52 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-121-51.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:00:05 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-99-173.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:01:11 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:02:43 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:41 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 13:04:58 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-99-173.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:07:33 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:07:45 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:10:23 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by Martian Death Ray] 13:11:07 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 13:14:52 now I can evolve using GP a lambda of 5 arguments that solves the boolean majority problem... 13:15:11 although it is not such an interesting problem 13:15:34 tritchey [~tritchey@76.14.13.107] has joined #lisp 13:16:23 BTW, it's not lisp related, but finally the Rubic cube has been solved, see http://www.cube20.org/ 13:18:37 tfb_ [~tfb@212.183.140.30] has joined #lisp 13:18:45 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.34] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:18:46 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:18:49 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 13:18:51 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 13:18:58 Never heard of it. 13:19:56 I like the table that summarizes the lower and upper bounds over time 13:20:33 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:13 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-12-199.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:25:09 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:25:09 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-bgrsumeppedtjleg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:26:46 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:27:14 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest91644 13:27:58 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-oeqtuzhbyhvtwswo] has left #lisp 13:38:39 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 13:39:47 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xomusbmzzgoikrtk] has joined #lisp 13:41:23 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@147.pool85-57-54.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:41:55 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:47:02 deafmacro [~user@122.166.122.177] has joined #lisp 13:47:20 -!- deafmacro [~user@122.166.122.177] has left #lisp 13:49:33 relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 13:49:37 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:49 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D199.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:53:02 -!- bitsurge [~bitsurge@S01060004e24ffe41.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: bitsurge] 13:53:11 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:55:46 'morning 13:56:58 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:57:35 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:59:01 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:20 Hello Fade! 14:05:12 greetings, beach. How are you on this fine day? 14:05:53 Fade: Not to bad thank you. What about yourself? 14:06:11 oh, I'm retty good. I have a lot of bug hunting to do today, though. :) 14:06:25 s/ret/pret 14:06:36 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:39 Bug hunting is always fun. 14:06:51 sometimes bug hunting is fun. 14:06:56 At least when one has the right tools for it. 14:07:02 I think I have at least one heisenbug, but I guess we'll see. 14:07:18 Those could be tricky. 14:09:27 they're almost always a failure of cognition and perception, so yeah. :) 14:10:17 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:11:28 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.145.250] has joined #lisp 14:11:42 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-124-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:52 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:19:37 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:23:09 -!- Guest91644 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:23:29 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-14-245.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined 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[~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:41:10 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has joined #lisp 15:43:06 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:43:42 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:45 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:46:03 fisxoj [~fisxoj@ool-45767b73.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:17 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:27 G'morning all. 15:49:48 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:49:53 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:49:55 Hello nyef 15:50:17 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-167-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:50:56 hi nyef 15:54:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-222.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:55:46 TheLolrus 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[user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-196-92.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:40 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-26-202.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:14:54 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-33-32.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:15:16 question for sbcl users: are unicode character constants allowed in Lisp source files? I'm experimenting with cl-couch, which seems to have them...seems against CLHS character types tho.....? 16:15:51 hargettp: AFAIK, they are allowed in lisp source files, but you need to be careful about the encoding used when compiling. 16:16:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 16:16:17 If you don't have good environmental control, it can be a lot of trouble. 16:16:48 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:18:24 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-26-202.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:18:25 since i'm leveraging ASDF to do all the loading...is there an obvious way to specify the encoding when loading at least 1 of the required files? 16:19:46 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has joined #lisp 16:20:55 That I couldn't tell you: I gave up on using ASDF for my own stuff ages ago. 16:21:09 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 16:21:24 Works fine for me. 16:21:53 nyef: it's keeping things tidy for me, so I'd rather hand-edit this source file than drop ASDF atm 16:21:58 Ah, no wait. The strange character stuff is not loaded by ASDF. 16:22:25 In some sense it's "just" a matter of rebinding the default external format around the compile-op. 16:22:34 Unless it isn't, or there's an easier way to do it. 16:22:44 Fare is actually the person I'd ask about that. 16:22:47 nyef: yes, that makes sense 16:23:02 nyef: ty, might do that if I can't find a better way out 16:23:29 Xach: i <3 quicklisp! 16:23:43 btw, is there any sort of consensus among CL implementations about guessing file encoding, like looking for a BOM? 16:24:03 Heh. Yeah, right. 16:24:36 pmd: there's no such implementation AFAIK 16:25:13 pmd: the file that bit me makes no obvious declaration..SBCL wants to load it as ASCII 16:25:36 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Quit: Asta la vista] 16:25:37 ... ASCII? Really? 16:25:41 yep 16:25:45 fe[nl]ix: not that i have that problem (now), but it would be good to count on something, but i support one can control the default external format when loading files... 16:25:52 That's a rather odd-seeming default external format, isn't it? 16:25:57 s/support/suppose/ 16:26:04 that's why I hit a read error--reader chose :ASCII as format, and can't decode a character (actually, a character constant) 16:26:26 Wait, a literal character constant? Why not use the character name there? 16:26:44 (M-x heretic-mode): how does java handle this? 16:27:24 nyef: I could edit the source (it's not my library); was hoping that there was some hidden feature of Lisp/ASDF/universe I could leverage in a clean way instead...but I am not above editing at all :) 16:27:40 pmd: with some design pattern 16:27:43 hargettp: what library ? 16:27:53 cl-couch 16:28:07 to be fair, it has no official distribution, and can only get source from darcs 16:28:40 hargettp: then send a patch to the author 16:28:59 fe[nl]ix: might do that, if I forget a nicer way to do this :) 16:29:48 for anyone who cares, the unicode character constants start @ line 173 in this file: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-couch-cl-couch;a=headblob;f=/client/utils.lisp 16:30:02 hargettp: Try a custom ASDF component class and an :around method for compile-op, or just plain set the default encoding prior to compiling. 16:31:03 lol, he's trying to do Unicode normalization 16:31:18 somebody should add that to babel :D 16:31:44 fen[nl]ix: yes...I think I have code of my own that solves the same problem, and the author points out hunchentoot does the same...lovely to see the same problems solved again and again :) 16:32:22 drewc`: woo 16:32:41 carlocci [~nes@93.37.211.235] has joined #lisp 16:32:46 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 16:33:00 Xach: any way to remove a system once it's installed? 16:33:29 drewc`: not at the moment, but it's meant to work. 16:33:37 the gf is named UNINSTALL 16:34:03 *Xach* nudges drewc` one channel over 16:34:07 ah right 16:34:43 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-26-202.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:34:51 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-26-202.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:35:18 hargettp: interested in implementing Unicode NFKD ? 16:35:24 nfkd? 16:35:46 Normalization Form KD 16:36:09 and btw, binding sb-impl::*default-external-format* to :utf-8 does allow loading of that problematic file 16:36:11 http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/tr15-23.html 16:36:49 hargettp: i believe that you just solved your problem (in sbcl) 16:37:23 pmd: yes....although something barfs a few files later, but at least I understand enough now to move on to a real solution :) 16:37:36 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:49 CMUCL has an implementation of Unicode normalization forms. 16:38:54 all four ? 16:38:55 hargettp: i'd guess that some source files are utf-8 and others are iso-8859-1... you'd have to convert all to either, or add BOM to utf-8 files (note: i don't have any idea if sbcl guesses source code file's external format from the BOM) 16:39:48 katerbau [~axel@mail.hype.de] has joined #lisp 16:39:52 pmd: yeah, I imagine the author is using a different Lisp implementation, one that is more forgiving with formats than the ASCII format my SBCL implementation seems to prefer (built with default features except for threading, so likely SBCL defaults, too) 16:39:52 fe[nl]ix: Yes. Paul Foley implemented them some time back. 16:40:31 nice 16:40:41 fen[nl]ix: normalization forms are a bit beyond the scope of what I'm trying to solve atm :) 16:40:41 lisp:string-to-{nfd,nfc,nfkc,nfkd} 16:40:58 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:41:16 -!- katerbau [~axel@mail.hype.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:41:24 katerbau [~axel@mail.hype.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:37 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 16:41:42 hargettp: Actually, SBCL's default external format is based on your LOCALE. 16:42:24 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:42:25 nyef: hmmm...that seems kinda old school then, for, SBCL to choose :ASCII on Mac OS X 16:42:39 nyef: altho perhaps conservative 16:43:29 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau`` 16:44:03 josemanuel [~josemanue@47.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:44:16 isn't the C locale UTF8 on OSX ? 16:45:38 hargettp: what are the values of $LOCALE & $LC_* on your machine ? 16:46:02 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has left #lisp 16:46:16 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:47:03 fe[nl]ix: no such variables appear to be set in my environment...checked both an ordinary terminal window and the shell in Emacs 16:47:32 so unless I broke something many years ago in my shell setup, these variables aren't set by default :) 16:47:42 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 16:48:40 -!- drewc` is now known as drewc 16:49:58 no big deal, overall: :ascii as a default is probably a very prudent choice, given the age of so much LIsp source code out there in the universe 16:50:58 It's the backup default or something, in case nothing better makes itself known. 16:51:58 Default external format on my machine is utf-8. 16:54:16 interesting! 16:54:19 mac, yes? 16:54:53 Technically. It's a PowerMac7,2 running debian. 16:55:12 nyef: ah :) 16:56:25 If it also ran OSX, I'd probably still be hacking on SBCL internals now instead of relaxing after having finished committing a pile of changes. 16:56:51 nyef: well, then luck you that you can relax :) 16:56:59 *lucky 17:00:28 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:00:30 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.30] has joined #lisp 17:00:36 Eh. Sortof. I'm probably going to have to get back to it soon, though. Just different areas. 17:01:07 nyef: PPC threading not enough? :) 17:01:46 Clearly, you haven't seen my potential-projects list. 17:02:01 most definiitely not :) 17:02:22 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-137.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:02:40 hey 17:03:05 I'm getting errors on macroexpansion saying a certain value will not be of type real (the value is passed to a function which requires this) 17:03:21 any common known cause for this? 17:05:51 hm 17:06:05 x86 non-threaded sbcl builds seem to be broken 17:07:28 -!- katerbau [~axel@mail.hype.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:09:55 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:33 Little things, like horrible brokenness of double-float arguments to local functions... 17:10:37 joshe: Uh-oh. 17:11:08 Damnit, between .17 and .21? 17:11:15 access_control_stack_pointer isn't defined 17:11:29 in the runtime, that is 17:11:32 .21, then. 17:12:11 I'm trying a build with it defined as control_stack_pointer, just like on non-threaded non-x86 arches 17:12:45 Yes, that should work. 17:12:55 nope 17:13:11 I think I'll have to adjust the #ifdef maze to define current_control_stack_pointer 17:13:43 Is whatever file has the error including globals.h? 17:14:01 it's monitor.c 17:14:09 I see that 17:14:10 - current_control_frame_pointer = 17:14:17 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 17:14:22 Ah, right. Umm... 17:14:27 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:15:02 oops 17:15:24 -!- _danb_` [~user@124.149.177.177] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:15:32 Well, that too. 17:15:37 I see that current_control_stack_pointer is defined in globals.h only on !defined(LISP_FEATURE_SB_THREAD) && !defined(LISP_FEATURE_C_STACK_IS_CONTROL_STACK) 17:15:54 Don't know how I didn't think to build unithreaded x86oids during my testing. 17:16:25 Bloody five-commit vulnerable window, and I blow it. 17:18:34 ][V][ICHAEL [~user@207.178.208.5] has joined #lisp 17:19:33 cowhm [~cowhm@61.sub-97-154-35.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:51 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by Martian Death Ray] 17:20:27 why aren't there automated build tests for this? 17:20:50 actually let me rephrase that: How much work would it entail to make some automated build tests? 17:21:04 I don't want to seem condescending, considering that you must be doing a lot of work and I am doing none. 17:21:16 foom had something like that for a while. (maybe he still does?) 17:21:30 I do nightly builds on opensbsd, which is why I caught it 17:22:58 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:23:17 -!- cowhm [~cowhm@61.sub-97-154-35.myvzw.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:23:57 cowhm [~cowhm@61.sub-97-154-35.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:14 I thought antifuchs was the automatic build king? 17:24:54 I've started to put together some stuff for doing regular builds, but I don't have the hardware to dedicate to the job. 17:25:03 I tried to set a thing up, but it wasn't really being used, and I ran out of bandwidth 17:25:21 I pawned it off on Sam Gromoff (deepfire), but it seems to be down right now 17:25:47 it was running with volunteered hardware, which seemed to be fine. 17:26:05 Anyway, I actually tested that series of commits on an x86-64, but running linux, and #!+sb-thread. 17:26:18 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:27:36 I set up buildbot to do automatic builds of ccl; it was a fair amount of work, but it is useful to have. 17:28:02 the problem is that it's a fair amount of ongoing work to make sure that all the builders are still working and such things. 17:28:22 Right, and the workload is definitely "bursty". 17:28:27 Agreed; I just now had to unwedge a build slave. 17:28:52 And nailing the critical combinations of things when you don't have full coverage for everything... Ugh. 17:30:04 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 17:30:20 bighouse [~bighouse@modemcable154.162-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:30:21 nyef: this is enough to pass make-target-1 for me, does it look sane to you? 17:30:22 http://elsasser.org/misc/sbcl-1.0.41-nonthreaded-fix.diff 17:30:37 I'm doing a full build now 17:31:33 I'd worry about threaded builds, actually. 17:32:02 This is that nasty intersection between threaded, non-threaded, x86oid, and sane-platforms. 17:32:36 francogrex [~user@109.130.157.51] has joined #lisp 17:33:45 how would it change anything in the threaded case? 17:33:55 is there a way to save an image (with data and assignments and functiuons etc) that is implementatipon independent? 17:34:48 since some implementations don't support images at all, I'd guess not 17:36:35 Right, my mistake. 17:36:51 Umm... Unless maybe the thread.h changes? I'll have to look at that context. 17:37:43 no, it's in an #elif which follows an #ifdef SB_THREAD 17:37:55 Yeah, so I see. 17:37:59 Fair catch, and looks good. 17:38:14 although I'm not sure the access_control_frame_pointer definition is correct or even needed, I just copied and pasted 17:39:50 hm, it appears to be declared in globals.h on nonthreaded x86-oids 17:41:25 anyway, with that patch I can do a nonthreaded build on openbsd x86-64 just fine 17:42:09 _3b`: i'd be semi-happy with a reader conditional or something 17:42:19 _3b`: at least in the short term that would be an easy fix for me 17:44:48 -!- abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:45:03 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:33 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:16 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D199.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:46 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D2F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:12 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:45 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:54:31 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:57:03 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.145.250] has quit [Quit: bye!] 17:57:05 well, maybe a library? just that I have to read in a lot of data from different files and then if I don't finish all the work in one session, it'll be easy to just pick up from where i left and trash all the files lying around (and some of them on other networks that are not always accessible) 17:57:38 francogrex: you can often use PRINT and READ for that purpose. 18:03:27 revel0_____ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 18:03:27 -!- revel0___ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:04:01 jds` [~user@69.151.75.38] has joined #lisp 18:04:39 abend [~alx@75-175-113-184.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:11 -!- jds` [~user@69.151.75.38] has left #lisp 18:05:22 jds` [~user@69.151.75.38] has joined #lisp 18:07:44 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-33-32.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 18:08:15 LiamH1 [~none@132.250.248.92] has joined #lisp 18:08:43 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:16 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-33-32.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:10:44 bridgeb_ [~barry@cpc3-dudl9-0-0-cust670.wolv.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 -!- Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 18:11:16 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 18:11:20 -!- bridgeb_ [~barry@cpc3-dudl9-0-0-cust670.wolv.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:31 zomgbie [~jesus@93.83.191.198] has joined #lisp 18:11:47 bridgeb [~barry@cpc3-dudl9-0-0-cust670.wolv.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:58 katerbau [~axel@xdsl-81-173-159-250.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:14 -!- lichtblau [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:13:32 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:15:47 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:22:08 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-33-32.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 18:22:10 nyef? 18:22:55 -!- bridgeb [~barry@cpc3-dudl9-0-0-cust670.wolv.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:23:19 nyef: what should I do to check status of threads on NetBSD? 18:24:33 -!- revel0_____ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 18:24:33 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 18:27:11 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:38 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 18:31:38 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.157.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:35 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:39 -!- jds` [~user@69.151.75.38] has left #lisp 18:41:27 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc1-belf4-0-0-cust889.belf.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:42:08 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:58 ASau``: Check the status in what way? 18:45:17 nyef: Are there any tests to run? 18:45:23 ASau``: compile it and run the test suite ? 18:45:39 Is this NetBSD/PPC, or NetBSD/x86oid? 18:45:53 I have no access to PPC. 18:46:03 I can check i386 and amd64. 18:46:25 Ah. 18:46:41 If you need it, I can check FreeBSD/i386 as well, but though it is a bit harder. 18:46:54 Test suite should do fine. If my changes would have broken it then it would fail during build. 18:47:05 Alright. 18:48:03 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-33-32.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:49:55 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:50:28 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:24 chupish [182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.211.71] has joined #lisp 18:52:52 seriously.. how cool is *features* and #+/#-. I love that stuff. 18:54:33 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 18:54:45 cool, but insufficient 18:57:04 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:58:24 gz` [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:21 Right, the truly cool weapon is the combination of #. and backquote. 18:59:26 fe[nl]ix: sufficient enough for my purposes, at this particluar moment, hence my comment :) 19:00:24 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-223-204.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:28 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-223-204.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:49 -!- gz` [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ] 19:01:52 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:02:50 nyef: hey, were you planning on committing that nonthreaded patch soon? 19:03:27 I'm just asking because if you are then I won't include it with the patched I'm resubmitting via launchpad 19:04:19 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@93.83.191.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:04:46 aloof [aloof@unaffiliated/aloof] has joined #lisp 19:05:06 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.216.167] has joined #lisp 19:06:13 -!- katerbau [~axel@xdsl-81-173-159-250.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: katerbau] 19:06:43 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:06:48 I'll fix it this afternoon or tonight. 19:06:49 -!- chupish [182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.211.71] has quit [] 19:07:02 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:07:20 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 19:07:42 ok 19:08:15 that's better than having it languish in launchpad ;) 19:09:07 Well, it's pretty fundamental, and it -is- a bug I created, and recently, too. 19:09:44 lispm [~joswig@d220173.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:23 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:10:43 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:12:08 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:17 -!- coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-242-252.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:13:22 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-2-146.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:14 iisjmii [~iisjmii@128-240.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 19:19:00 Hello, I want a string to end with a backslash, but I don't know how "string\" escapes the quotation mark, and "string\\" becomes string\\ 19:19:08 Anybody know how to do this? 19:19:18 iisjmii: "\\" is a one-character string 19:19:22 iisjmii: the character is \ 19:19:27 iisjmii: you're wrong. "string\\" is contains only the characters s t r i n g and \ 19:20:44 iisjmii: (map nil (function print) "string\\") 19:21:06 iisjmii: or (map 'list (function print) "string\\") 19:21:32 thx, one moment 19:21:46 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 19:22:30 Yes, my fault, thank you 19:23:14 The string was printed with the escape character still it it, so I got confused 19:28:48 -!- benny [~user@i577A8623.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:47 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 19:30:13 you can print it with PRINC also to see 19:30:40 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:33:28 Anyone here a 68000 assembly guru? 19:33:42 stassats: thx 19:34:27 gigamonkey: I'm not a guru, but I'm not horrible at it either, why? 19:34:57 I'm looking for someone who wants to write about Bill Atkinson's recently released Quickdraw and MacPaint code (http://www.computerhistory.org/highlights/macpaint/) 19:35:10 Though I guess MacPaint is mostly in Apple Pascal 19:36:01 gigamonkey: correct. There's some assembler too. And Macintosh Quickdraw was rewritten in assembler too, since the Pascal Lisa version was too big. 19:36:06 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:21 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.216.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:36:42 gigamonkey: have you had a look at Andy Hertzfeld's folklore.org site? 19:36:51 pjb: some, yeah. 19:37:15 I used to be good at 68000 assembler. 19:37:19 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:37:20 Oh, wow. 19:37:53 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:15 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:38:19 Too bad I didn't know about lisp in 1984. I would have written one in 68000 on Mac :-) 19:38:47 Anybody has a time machine to lend me? 19:39:22 pjb: recent OSX version include one 19:39:28 :-) 19:39:30 right. 19:39:30 tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:34 :D 19:40:15 -!- aloof [aloof@unaffiliated/aloof] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:40:20 rvirding [~chatzilla@h115n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:36 benny [~user@i577A8EAE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:42:39 gigamonkey: well, in the Mac team "they weren't hackers", so I guess their assembly code should be rather plain ;-) 19:42:48 I've got a C dynamic lib I'm calling from SBCL that's taking the image down on assert failure; anyone know how to get a backtrace from that? 19:42:49 mlk [~user@41.202.71.239] has joined #lisp 19:42:59 hello 19:43:06 Hi! 19:43:45 Ralith: use gdb? 19:43:52 pjb: perhaps. However Don Knuth described that code as containing "lots of pioneering graphics algorithms" 19:44:03 stassats: and break on what? 19:44:07 If Knuth says it's worth reading, I'm inclined to believe him. 19:44:22 Ralith: something before that assertion, i think 19:44:36 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:41 stassats: if I knew what lead up to the assertion... 19:45:10 aloof [~aloof@unaffiliated/aloof] has joined #lisp 19:45:14 is your library compiled with debug info? 19:45:16 gigamonkey: indeed, QuickDraw was quite advanced. eg. the Regions. 19:45:31 I've read lisp is an interpreted langage. Is it in the same way as java ? I don't understand I've haven't heard of a lisp VM 19:45:53 mlk: interpretation and compilation are just optimizations. They depend on the implementation, not on the language. 19:46:06 mlk: eg. there are C interpreters, and most lisp implementations are compilers. 19:46:10 mlk: Most lisps compile to machine code. 19:46:26 native machine code even! 19:46:28 Some compile to bytecode. 19:46:29 stassats: no. 19:46:41 oh ! 19:47:00 Some interpret in other ways though usually those also do compilation. 19:47:17 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:47:21 Early on Lisp implementors figured out how to mix compiled with interpreted code. 19:47:39 And Common Lisp mandates a certain "minimal compilation" anyway. 19:47:49 mlk: and given that "interpretation" is subject to interpretation, anything may occur in an interpreter, such as just-in-time compilation. 19:47:51 hum.. 19:47:57 i don't know any major lisp which only has an interpreter 19:48:28 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:48:28 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:48:39 even minor implementations, even of minor languages such as basic, usually hide a compiler behind the "interpreter". 19:48:46 stassats: perhaps some serious Scheme implementations? 19:48:59 *gigamonkey* cues Scheme is/is not a Lisp flamewar 19:49:00 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:49:03 mlk: the point rather is that lisp implementations almost always come with a REPL, and _interactive_ environment. 19:49:15 mlk: you should not confuse "interactive" with "interpreted". 19:49:37 ok 19:49:53 It was interesting reading in the Evolution of Lisp paper how the KCL (now ECL and GCL) strategy of compiling Lisp to C was apparently something no US Lisp implementors had ever thought of. 19:50:08 Or at least never explored. 19:50:39 KCL sounds generally interesting in its origins. 19:50:53 gigamonkey: well, the idea is rather silly. It's sustainable only in a bizarre economical context. 19:51:17 there is a c.l.l post comparing compiling to C vs. compiling to machine code 19:51:47 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Client Quit] 19:52:27 I thought compiling reserved for translation to machine code only and lower not to C 19:52:50 the compiling word was reserved ... 19:52:51 mlk: C is an assembler. 19:52:53 you thought wrong 19:52:53 mlk: compiling, generally speaking, is just translating from one form to another 19:52:57 no, compiling is transforming code from one representation to another 19:52:59 mlk: a portable assembler, but still an assembler. 19:53:20 ok 19:53:45 While interpreting, generally speaking, is generating behavior directly from some representation. 19:53:47 though, compiling looks like a misnomer 19:53:50 mlk: that said, even lisp is considered an assembler, for the language in which AI will be implemented ;-) 19:54:17 So even "interpreters" usually have some amount of compilation in them if they, say, turn a text file into an in-memory tree which is then interpreted. 19:54:19 :) 19:54:20 zomgbie [~jesus@93.83.191.198] has joined #lisp 19:54:40 stassats: well "compiling" refers to the act of concatenating code chunks (presumably predefined code chunks). 19:54:56 "translator" would be a better word 19:55:20 -!- tcr [~tcr@81-233-246-97-no37.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:55:22 Funnily, human real-time translators are called "interpreters". :-) 19:55:32 :) 19:55:44 and they say lisp is inconsistent! 19:55:58 mlk: what I told you. It's all a question of interaction vs. batch processing. 19:56:21 ok, it's a bit clearer thanks 19:57:12 pjb: the original meaning of the word is to translate 19:57:15 timor [~timor@port-92-195-172-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:42 pjb: it's only in recent times that its usage became more subjective 19:58:17 mlk: from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compiler : "A compiler is a computer program (or set of programs) that transforms source code written in a programming language (the source language) into another computer language" 19:58:23 -!- bighouse [~bighouse@modemcable154.162-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:58:46 bighouse [~bighouse@modemcable154.162-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:58:53 ok, I though wrongly 19:58:57 -!- bighouse [~bighouse@modemcable154.162-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 19:59:46 In that sens reverse ingeneering could be since in compiling.. 19:59:56 drewc, well it's easy enough to change that definition :) 20:00:07 aloof_ [aloof@unaffiliated/aloof] has joined #lisp 20:00:20 -!- aloof [~aloof@unaffiliated/aloof] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:00:42 it's easy to revert the change! 20:00:45 -!- aloof_ is now known as aloof 20:01:01 source-to-source compilers? 20:01:02 the etymology of the word got me wrong com (with or add to) a pile 20:01:16 clop: i'm just always amazed how many programmers use words like 'compile' and 'compiler' without knowing the definitions of the words. 20:01:32 sykopomp: all compilers are source-to-source compilers. 20:01:44 drewc: source language, not source code. 20:02:00 javascript->javascript compilers, for example. 20:02:16 drewc: i know, compilation is when you choose the best code and display it at an exhibition 20:02:18 drewc: why should they? people use words without regards to "the" definitions 20:04:34 babies don't learn from dictionaries, and as they grow up they don't typically learn many words of their native language from dictionaries either.. 20:05:12 i guess they use the word by analogy, they see that calling make is compilation, and in lisp there is no calling make part 20:05:25 :D 20:05:30 and no final executable 20:05:36 if they do learn the definition, that doesn't guarantee that they'll keep it rigidly in mind whenever they use or encounter the term 20:06:37 katerbau [~axel@xdsl-81-173-159-250.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:06:55 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:09:27 adeht: 'compiler' is not a term usually used by children... it's a technical term... i'd expect an scientist to use things like 'mass' and 'weight' by the proper definitions, while i would not expect the same from a layperson. Similarly, i expect professional/pro-am programmers to use the right words and definitions. 20:10:05 adeht: i'm pretty sure the first text i ever read on compilers and complilation began with the definition of the words. 20:10:26 i suppose i forget that for most people, programming is C. 20:10:31 nyef: your commit series generated the longest boinkmarks cron mail I've gotten in a loooooong time 20:10:35 it's really pretty (: 20:10:42 heh 20:10:50 drewc: there are several mistakes here 20:11:05 adeht: i'm all ears :) 20:11:55 jds` [~user@69.151.75.38] has joined #lisp 20:12:16 nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113347 if you want to see (: 20:12:26 drewc: programming and physics have quite different terminological standards, terms like "mass" are quite central to physics, while "compiler" is just that damn program that "takes my program and produces an .exe" :) 20:12:54 drewc: many programmers don't know much about compilation 20:13:39 physicists go to a mass too? 20:14:35 alas, some do 20:14:51 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 20:14:51 I guess people never misuse velocity/speed. 20:15:07 in my language it's one word 20:15:10 -!- mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Client Quit] 20:15:13 adeht: can we just call those folk 'computer operators' then, and reserve the work 'computer programmer' for one that knows how to program a _computer_ as opposed to operate an IDE 20:15:29 Fullma [~fullma@41.140.28.163] has joined #lisp 20:15:39 drewc: when I was 8 and learned LOGO, I sure as Hell didn't care for what a compiler is.. the books mentioned code like "REPEAT 4 [ FD 50 RT 90 ]", not definitions for "compiler".. 20:16:26 while every basic Newtonian mechanisms book teaches about mass 20:16:30 *mechanics 20:16:34 so you wouldn't use the word "compiler" at all, let alone misuse it 20:16:48 adeht: red herring, i was not talking about 8 year olds learning logo, but professional programmers. 20:17:47 when i first started playing guitar at 8, i didn't care what an arpeggio was, my book mentioned chords like "G D7 C". 20:18:11 stassats: yes, until someone tells you about it, or you encounter some casual use of it.. it's unlikely that you begin reading books about compilation w/o being told to or being specificially interested in this area (which is wider than its perceived scope, of course) 20:18:12 -!- lispm [~joswig@d220173.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:35 still, i would expect a professional guitarist to understand what an arpeggio is and how to make use of them. 20:18:42 then you use an analogy, and sometimes analogy may not work 20:18:55 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:18:59 drewc: "professional programmers" to me just means a person who gets paid for programming 20:19:22 drewc: I guess you attach some status to the term 20:19:58 adeht: well, i attach status to the term "professional", yes. Pity it's been diluted to mean 'getting paid for something'. 20:20:14 some of us expect professionals to have some sort of a clue. 20:20:41 i only judge by the presence of a white beard 20:20:56 sykopomp: in your ideal or in reality? 20:21:05 sykopomp: professional, like compiler, seems to be one of those words that it's ok to use improperly :) 20:21:09 stassats: the longer the better. 20:21:25 sykopomp: in any case, the world must be quite disappointing ;) 20:22:24 Anyone up for fielding a question from a CL newbie who _has_ read (most of) Practical Common Lisp? 20:22:36 jds`: don't ask to ask! Just ask :) 20:22:40 jds`: Go ahead 20:22:46 In Common Lisp, is it possible to create a constant variable whose symbol name is made from a concatenated string? 20:23:04 jds`: yes. Whether that is wise is another matter. 20:23:18 jds`: I think that's in a particular class: "When you learn how to do it, you learn not to want it." 20:23:31 or perhaps "you know enough not to want it" 20:23:43 drewc: it's interesting that you think so about the etymology of "professional" btw.. the online etymology dictionary has this to say: Noun meaning "one who does X for a living" is from 1798; opposed to amateur from 1851. 20:24:24 jds`: Are you intending to use 'constant variables' in the same way defines are used in C? 20:24:30 and Fermat is the king of amateurs 20:24:37 "opposed to amateur" could mean another thing, too 20:24:58 jds`: if so, keywords often fill that role nicely in Lisp. 20:25:18 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-135-132.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 20:25:30 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:25:53 adeht: I think it's funny that you're defending the 'established' definition of one word, but defending how it's perfectly fine and dandy to pick whatever definition you want, in another case. 20:25:55 for identity? you mean like enums? 20:26:07 sykopomp: I am not defending any definition 20:26:14 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:29 sykopomp: drewc mentioned that the term was diluted to mean what I considered it to mean 20:26:36 adeht: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional, definition 1b from 1606 20:26:42 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-135-132.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:42 ah 20:26:44 okay 20:26:51 But still, the name of the keyword symbol I would want to generate, and I'm not sure how to go from string to symbol, except via "intern". 20:27:11 jds`: intern, find-symbol, make-symbol 20:28:17 Thanks for your responses! I'll give it another try. 20:28:35 drewc: yes, the etymological dictionary also mentions early 15th century.. but then it was used "of religious orders" 20:28:57 jds`: you can use SYMBOL-NAME/STRING to grab the name of a symbol, then CONCATENATE 'STRING to create the new name, and then just INTERT + package (presumably :keyword ?). 20:30:12 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-223-204.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:12 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-223-204.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:22 ... well maybe professional has something to do with pro (like first) and fessional (which sounds like a compilation of a latin word mean the doer ) 20:30:50 drewc: later on (18th century) the term "profession" was used for careers of the learned or skilled trades.. 20:31:43 so you would be a professional in lisp for exemple if you would be the first one tho give the right answer is lisp. 20:31:56 someone should create #etymology 20:32:01 hahaha 20:32:13 done 20:32:34 drewc: that the _trade_ is a learned or skilled trade does not mean that the "professionals", those who participate in that trade, are learned or skilled 20:32:39 what about lisp etymology that should be easy :) I don't know it 20:33:18 maybe too easy, i'll chek wiki. 20:35:26 drewc: the attachment of status to the term is simply arbitrary.. if you consider some person competent, you'd call him "professional".. if you consider some person incompetent, you'd call him "unprofessional" 20:35:34 ok I know LISP List Processing 20:35:36 adeht: can i point to the wikipedia definition as one that makes sense as i understand the word? Of course, you're free to change the definition to match those used in centuries past. 20:35:59 drewc: I did not complain about your wikipedia quotation 20:36:02 adeht: the word professional has many meanings in different contexts 20:36:19 drewc: in fact, I thought that you pasted it because it fit with your view of the term 20:36:29 and not to bring wikipedia as an authority 20:36:57 i pasted it? 20:37:22 -!- mlk [~user@41.202.71.239] has quit [Quit: "diner time"] 20:37:34 drewc: oh, are you talking about wikipedia entry for "professional"? (I thought about "compiler") 20:38:00 adeht: yes, "professional" 20:38:16 fellow lispers, let us return On Topic 20:38:17 drewc: like I said, I wouldn't bother to defend any definition, and I accept that terms can have many, many definitions 20:38:23 agreed, not that wikipedia is an authority. 20:38:49 drewc: it's simply your remark about "dilution" of the term that caused me to look for the etymology 20:40:20 I like lisp! 20:40:39 I coded Lisp intensely this weekend. I was very happy. 20:40:54 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 sykopomp: how dare you! 20:42:19 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.133.29] has joined #lisp 20:43:03 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:32 stassats: I couldn't help it! It was sexpressing things to me in such a way.. 20:44:13 sykopomp: lisp is off-topic here, have you anything to say about etymology? 20:44:24 adeht: unprofessional sounds more like 'improper' than 'incompetent' to me 20:44:43 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:58 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:44:58 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 20:44:58 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 20:45:13 Ralith: yes, in the context of managerial vocation I can definitely see how that would make sense 20:45:17 what exactly is the etymology of 'fexpr', anyway? 'functional' expression doesn't sound right... 20:45:52 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-223-204.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:45:54 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-223-204.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:09 Ralith: or any work involving human-to-human relations 20:46:21 fexpr - Did you mean FoxPRO ? 20:46:22 :D 20:46:26 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D2F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:46 fe[nl]ix: I've no idea what FoxPRO is... 20:46:59 oh, a programming language? 20:47:01 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 20:47:08 ahh FoxPro ... DbaseIV IIRC 20:47:46 francogrex [~user@109.130.157.51] has joined #lisp 20:48:14 do you know any women who code in lisp? 20:49:28 gz 20:49:39 francogrex: ^ 20:49:53 my girlfriend codes a little in Lisp 20:50:31 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:37 ok; I think programming in general is a "man" job 20:50:45 gz's one of the best hackers I know. 20:51:38 gz: cheers (if you are around) 20:52:25 Alice Hartley single-handedly kept MCL going for years. 20:53:51 -!- abend [~alx@75-175-113-184.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:54:01 francogrex: I prefer the term "sausagefest". 20:54:21 my wife can code some lisp. 20:54:39 drewc: even your ferrets can code 20:54:47 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h115n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:58 I bet even his ferrets know what a compiler is! 20:55:03 stassats: they are not very good at it though. 20:56:04 adeht: well, for example, it'd be unprofessional to be a huge dick about it anytime somebody else made an error in the codebase, but that doesn't necessarily reflect on your ability. 20:56:40 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:01 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:00:18 -!- jds` [~user@69.151.75.38] has left #lisp 21:01:01 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:01:37 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:01:40 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:38 msnbot [~chatzilla@180.149.12.254] has joined #lisp 21:04:52 -!- msnbot is now known as e6-6 21:05:58 hello room 21:06:14 Ralith: yes, that's another use for the term.. there's a certain "movement" for professionalism, with values such as impersonalism, competence, etc. 21:06:21 what does (symbol-name? ()) means?? 21:07:14 are you sure there is a "?" in there? 21:08:13 I have a statement like, "(image-plane? (if window-for-mouse? (map-to-image-plane from-workspace window-for-mouse?)))" 21:08:15 e6-6: #scheme is over there -----> 21:08:31 *drewc* assumes 21:09:11 drewc: I am completely sure that its lisp. compiler is SBCL 21:09:39 Lisp does not use a ? in names, scheme does 21:09:50 that's just a convention. 21:10:11 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:10:12 Fade: so image-plane? is a valid symbol name?? 21:10:15 Fade: I mean in the standard packages 21:10:18 e6-6: well, then find the definition of SYMBOL-NAME? and go from there.... there is no such operator in CL 21:10:32 sure, it's valid. 21:10:43 it's not considered good style in CL, though 21:10:46 but you can use it. 21:11:21 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 21:11:22 I wished it was good style...even? looks much better 21:11:29 Fade: I though its some kind of tertiary operator. 21:11:33 |ceci n'est pas un nom de symbol| 21:11:46 |oh attendez| 21:12:21 cmm-: '|(this is a funny one) in my opinion| 21:12:25 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 21:13:18 we half-sleep to serve! 21:14:41 katerbau_ [~axel@xdsl-81-173-145-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:14:59 i'll use a #\? sometimes at the end of a local variable name that is expected to have a generalized boolean value, but never on a predicate. 21:15:09 iisjmii: it's hard to talk about such names on IRC 21:15:27 i'm always confused whether it's a question or a symbol name 21:15:33 -!- aloof [aloof@unaffiliated/aloof] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:49 That is true, didn't think about that one 21:16:47 -!- katerbau [~axel@xdsl-81-173-159-250.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:16:59 -!- katerbau_ [~axel@xdsl-81-173-145-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:17:31 I like the fact that some languages have the convention to use (list foo foo! foo?) 21:17:37 abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has joined #lisp 21:17:46 methods with those names, that is 21:18:16 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:32 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:40 I personally kinda like the #\? convention. 21:18:47 although I don't use it in CL code. 21:18:52 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:02 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:19:12 in lisp, I mostly use -p for ? 21:19:28 disumu [~disumu@pD4B9ED1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:30 well, p/-p/atom 21:19:31 :P 21:20:47 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:20:48 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 21:21:26 rvirding [~chatzilla@h115n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:16 I keep forgetting the rules for p vs -p though 21:22:34 madnificent: that's easy, p != np 21:22:37 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-135-132.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:22:59 I can't believe it takes a 100 pages to prove it 21:23:05 <_3b> isn't it just -p if there is already a - in the name? 21:23:16 madnificent: i'd prove it on a margin 21:23:18 _3b: could be, didn't say it was hard 21:24:19 *madnificent* thinks it should just be an adaption of the finite automata theory, in the sense that you now look at an exponential number of them, then prove that you have exp(exp(x)) 21:24:33 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.157.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:43 *madnificent* can't figure out how something like that would take a 100 pages 21:24:49 you mean (exp (exp x))? 21:24:59 madnificent: if there's no #\- in the name, append the p directly. If there are, use -p. If you're using DEFSTRUCT, forget everything you think you know. Also, if you use ATOM. 21:25:02 simple, neh? 21:25:24 sykopomp: lol@defstruct 21:25:37 stassats: if you accept the implementation errors, yes ^_^ 21:25:39 defstruct is pretty naise. 21:26:12 in a horrible "please give me a better macro" kind of way. 21:26:53 -!- iisjmii [~iisjmii@128-240.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:09 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f194.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:28:28 sykopomp: probably something to request for the new spec 21:28:36 ffff 21:28:44 why is SLIME responding to every input with "Connection closed." 21:28:58 even after repeated restarts of the inferior lisp 21:29:30 -!- cowhm [~cowhm@61.sub-97-154-35.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:45 cowhm [~cowhm@61.sub-97-154-35.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:16 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:33 madnificent: or you could just write a macro that wraps DEFSTRUCT -- because you can :) 21:30:50 Ralith: what kind of input? 21:30:58 sure you can, but it would be nice if it would just be there, no? 21:31:23 you can try to find the answer to "why?" in *slime-events* and *inferior-lisp* 21:31:25 stassats: M-x slime-*, typing in the repl, etc. 21:31:31 madnificent: It would be nice to know what sort of syntax is optimal before even bothering with talking about standardisation. 21:31:41 stassats: both of those buffers appear normal. 21:31:42 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-14-245.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:46 sykopomp: #\? obviously 21:32:03 madnificent: we don't need to wait for a committee to agree before we can have our for loops ;) 21:32:10 stassats: last time this happened, I had to restart the emacs process 21:32:27 heh. I think DEFSTRUCT needs a much more serious makeover than just what it attaches to predicates... 21:32:56 it would be nice if you could attach types to arbitrary objects (like lists) 21:33:39 (defun attach (whatever arbitrary-object) (setf (gethash arbitrary-object *whatevers*) whatever)) 21:33:58 Ralith: try to visit " *cl-connection*" (note the space) 21:34:05 pjb: what? 21:34:17 (attach 'types (list 1 2 3)) 21:34:21 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has joined #lisp 21:34:32 madnificent: it is trivial to attach anything to anything. 21:35:12 36DAAD4X1 [~user@p548A5056.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:13 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 21:35:20 pjb: would be nicer if the lisp would interpret the type 21:35:34 -!- 36DAAD4X1 is now known as urandom__ 21:35:40 the same way as it intprets an integer for instance. It would allow dispatching by using clos methods on those objects too 21:35:43 madnificent: it always does. When you call typep et al. 21:36:05 (my-method (get-whatever-is-attached-to object) object) 21:36:13 pjb: what the hell are you blabbering about? 21:36:22 Just program! 21:36:49 Or write a program to write program if you're so lazy you don't want to program. 21:37:56 pjb: is there a way to make (let ((my-list (list 1 2 3))) (type-of my-list)) return some other type than list? 21:38:22 No, because my-list is of type CONS, therefore type-of will return CONS. 21:38:34 stassats: it exists 21:38:50 and it's empty? 21:39:04 yes, and I would like it if I could change the type of an arbitrary lisp object. 21:39:10 madnificent: Then NULL. If you want a whatever then call (get-whatever-is-attached-to my-list). 21:39:21 pjb: what? 21:39:35 madnificent: COERCE 21:39:37 seriously, if you wouldn't be here more often, I'd assume you were trolling :P 21:39:57 madnificent: I wonder what you want. There's already all you need in CL! 21:40:07 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.92.122.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:40:15 madnificent: just write the damn AI we need to be able to all go on holidays definitely. 21:40:23 pjb: doesn't cource only work with types predefined in CL? 21:40:39 coerce 21:40:48 If you need something not predefined in CL, just write it! 21:41:06 For example, my above ATTACH and GET-WHATEVER-IS-ATTACHED-TO. 21:41:59 pjb: so I could actually define a subclass of CONS named MY-TYPE and COERCE my list to be of type MY-TYPE? 21:41:59 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:13 No, you'd write your own COERCE. 21:42:30 pjb: and how would I set the type of my list? By declaring it? 21:42:32 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:42:49 or how do I extend COERCE? 21:42:51 Yes, or using ATTACH, or whatever you want to use. That's called programming. 21:43:04 but I want to have it integrated within CL 21:43:17 madnificent: :shadow :coerce 21:43:18 <_< 21:43:23 for instance, I want to be able to define CLOS methods on it later... 21:43:41 sykopomp: that wouldn't integrate it... that would just shadow 21:43:45 that's a whole different thing than integration 21:43:53 Well, there's a core layer in CL that must not be changed. It's in the package CL. You can now define any other package where you may define symbols with the same name, but doing something else or more. And then in your code instead of using the package CL you can use your package MY-EXTENDED-CL. 21:43:55 what is 'integration'? 21:44:33 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:35 so it is _not_ possible to make lisp believe the type of a CONS is something else than CONS, right? 21:44:42 sykopomp: the opposite of 'differentiation' 21:44:51 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:44:52 (defgeneric coerce (object result-type) (:method (object result-type) (cl:coerce object result-type)))? 21:45:05 madnificent: it is not possible make it believe false things, no. 21:45:12 if it's the name you're so attached to... 21:45:22 pjb: it needn't be false, it may be a subtype of a CONS 21:45:29 stassats: yes, it's empty 21:45:42 that doesn't seem like types, more like tags 21:45:53 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.133.29] has quit [Quit: bye!] 21:45:56 sykopomp: no, it is not... your solution doesn't solve it at all 21:45:56 Tordek [tordek@free.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 21:46:02 madnificent: what's more, at any time, a value has alway an infinite number of types. 21:46:04 madnificent: worksforme 21:46:07 stassats: regardless, it is not possible, right? 21:46:28 pjb: ? 21:46:29 madnificent: therefore if you want to get one specific type, instead of another, you don't have any other choice than telling the system what you want, ie. to program. 21:46:47 madnificent: depends on how far you're willing to go 21:46:53 stassats: what do I do about it? 21:47:06 pjb: no, that'd be crap. lisp has subtypes anyways... it could work in the same way 21:47:20 -!- Tordek [tordek@free.blinkenshell.org] has quit [Client Quit] 21:47:21 Ralith: you can paste *slime-events* 21:47:30 though i'm not really in the mood for remote slime debugging 21:47:31 stassats: _common lisp_ , I want to be within the spec 21:47:42 stassats: eh, I'll just restart emacs 21:47:48 Tordek [tordek@free.blinkenshell.org] has joined #lisp 21:48:03 spineless! 21:48:14 a simple no is fine too... I thought it wasn't possible... but if it would be possible, it would make me happy 21:48:17 this argument makes me sad 21:48:44 It is possible. Just write what you want. 21:49:35 if your question is "is there some function in the standard, which would attach arbitrary tags to arbitrary objects" then the answer is "no" 21:49:41 pjb: how would I attach a type to the list, so (CL:TYPE-OF my-list) would return something else than CONS 21:49:44 you can attach arbitrary tags only to symbols 21:49:54 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:50:52 stassats: it wouldn't be an arbitrary tag, it would probably be defined as a type through deftype 21:51:07 the answer is no 21:51:17 madnificent: (defclass my-cons () (car cdr)) ? (defclass tagged-list () (tag list)) ? 21:51:39 drewc: no, I don't want to define a class, that's not transparent 21:51:58 it is, if you use extensible sequences 21:52:01 anyways thanks, I'm glad this communication is terminated 21:52:51 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-199-196.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:52:57 -!- cowhm [~cowhm@61.sub-97-154-35.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:57 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:18 cowhm [~cowhm@61.sub-97-154-35.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:11 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-199-196.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:44 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 21:57:09 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:29 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:12 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-172-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:25 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:26 madnificent: why do you insist on cl:type-of? 21:59:52 that said, it's possible to rewrite the lisp reader too, so that cl:type-of is not cl:type-of but my-extended-cl:type-of. 22:00:09 stassats: see my attach function above. 22:00:13 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:22 ldunn [~user@d110-32-136-93.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:00:41 pjb: clearly, it doesn't do what madnificent is asking 22:01:33 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:55 do i have to do some declares in sbcl to get tail recursive optimizations on? 22:02:44 no, if you use the defaults 22:03:18 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:03:31 stassats: http://www.cliki.net/Tail%20Recursion Does this apply to SBCL, as well? 22:04:36 sykopomp: that binding special variables defeats TCO? 22:04:45 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:05:02 stassats: that, and the declaration stuff. 22:05:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-166-201.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 22:05:18 oh, nevermind. 22:05:22 ignore me, I can't read. 22:07:28 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:28 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-ce8372d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 22:13:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-137.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:14:29 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:17:03 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:17:03 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5056.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:17:03 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:17:03 -!- 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has quit [Excess Flood] 22:19:50 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:20:54 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:21:07 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:24:23 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.cdif.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:28:02 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:40 Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:39 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-13369.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:34:29 so, I restarted the neglected buildbot master on sbcl.feelingofgreen.ru. 22:34:45 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 22:36:15 It's not too useful right now since the only builders that are online are x86-64. :) 22:37:42 -!- postamar 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has joined #lisp 23:25:39 fualo [~fualo@markov.genomecenter.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 23:27:04 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:28:29 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:41:31 sonnym1 [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:41 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:42:17 -!- sonnym1 is now known as sonnym 23:43:12 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:45:05 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 23:46:37 really loving gigamonkey's book so far 23:46:43 do you make any money off this thing man? 23:47:21 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.211] has joined #lisp 23:47:59 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:47 A bit. 23:48:54 I'm available for other cover endorsements if you know any authors. 23:49:15 *Xach* is willing to work for flat fee + points 23:50:19 Xach: That brought out a comment from someone who looked at my copy: "Wait, they have an endorsement from a random IRC dude?" 23:50:44 I am hardly random! 23:50:52 that's no random IRC d00d, that's fucking Xach ! 23:51:04 That's what I said, too. :) 23:51:12 *drewc* swore for emphasis! 23:51:48 necroforest [~jarred@pool-72-66-100-119.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:13 lol 23:58:27 SBCL segfaults when I call boehm GC's GC_init() function 23:58:31 anyone know why that might be? 23:59:10 if you want Boehm GC in SBCL, you're doing something wrong 23:59:44 not at all