00:00:24 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:00:31 and/or rebind functions to your own advanced trace wrapper. 00:01:43 -!- chapter_29 [~Adium@manz-d933eb1b.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 00:03:14 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:48 _8david [~user@port-92-195-14-49.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:06:16 -!- sandor [~sandorm@53.7.broadband16.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:06:16 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-121-212.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:08:16 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:08:40 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:09:09 How do I install ASDF with CLISP? 00:09:31 aidalgol: cliki.net/asdf 00:09:47 ASDF's makefile tries to use sbcl, even if I set lisp=clisp 00:10:31 aidalgol: can't you just load the asdf.lisp file? 00:10:44 madnificent: All that has on CLISP is for Windows. 00:11:07 How do I *install* asdf.lisp? 00:11:19 aidalgol: it contains everything you need to do it on *nix too 00:11:27 aidalgol: you download it, save it somewhere 00:11:30 type clisp 00:11:39 (load "/path/to/asdf.lisp") 00:12:08 OK, so is there something analogous to Emacs's site-start.el file? 00:12:12 ...for clisp? 00:12:56 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 00:13:51 aidalgol: ~/.clisprc.lisp or ~/.clisprc , I think (I don't use clisp) 00:14:02 aidalgol: man clisp should have information about it 00:14:37 -!- Anarch_ [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:15:18 lispm [~lispm@d220150.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 00:16:07 -!- lispm [~lispm@d220150.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:36 ephcon_ [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:42 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:22:00 aidalgol, you could check out clbuild, I think it sets up asdf 00:22:20 it may also provide you an easier means to retrieve libraries 00:22:24 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:22:41 ,clbuild 00:22:49 Oh, right. No bot. 00:23:11 -!- open [~cutintape@unaffiliated/open] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:23:25 minion: Tell aidalgol about clbuild 00:23:26 aidalgol: have a look at clbuild: clbuild is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 00:23:52 minion -is- a bot, hehe 00:24:48 there is other alternatives as well; I'm not very familiar with them 00:25:18 -!- Somelauw [~anonymous@084-246-052-113.PN.NL] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 00:29:14 Guthur: does clbuild contain stumpwm? 00:29:33 Guthur: and clbuild doesn't setup asdf for clisp either, I think 00:30:02 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.15.113] has joined #lisp 00:30:28 madnificent, not sure on either count 00:30:34 I use SBCL which comes with ASDF 00:30:53 But I have a vague memory of someone saying it does 00:31:31 ASDF comes with SBCL, but not clisp. 00:31:51 it would appear so 00:33:04 Guthur: apparently, clbuild --long-help says it understands clbuild --implementation clisp 00:33:35 minion: are you a bot? 00:33:36 ye clbuild should work with a few implementations 00:33:36 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 00:33:42 minion: ^ 00:33:43 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``^''. 00:33:51 *Guthur: ^ 00:33:54 hehe 00:34:03 Minion: are you annoyed? 00:34:04 yes 00:34:12 *p_l* reads Dalvik bytecode list 00:35:25 p_l: we're getting CL on android? 00:36:42 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 00:36:52 madnificent: not necessarily CL, though ABCL should be portable 00:37:30 p_l: ABCL doesn't generate java code, it generates Dalvik-incompatible bytecode 00:38:00 I wonder will people start developing ifinger 00:38:29 Guthur: iwhat? 00:38:31 madnificent: so one needs to make it generate dalvik bytecode and write it to Dex files :> 00:38:37 an RSI problems brought on from overly using such terribly small touch screens 00:39:09 madnificent, I just made ifinger up btw, hehe 00:39:10 Zetetic [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 00:39:10 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:39:23 Guthur: it sounds hilarious, yet NSFW 00:39:28 inspired by nintendo thumb 00:39:35 lol 00:39:42 madnificent, you are well, mad 00:40:35 I'm going to use that term regardless of all that... it sounds good 00:40:39 Doctor: So what's the problem, Patient: IFinger 00:41:05 see not you turned me mad... 00:41:15 *Guthur* goes to have some mint tea 00:42:17 madnificent: I was actually looking into a CL-like language that would directly emit DVM bytecode (kinda like the Java tool included with ACL) 00:43:06 p_l: a subset of CL? 00:43:12 madnificent: sort of 00:43:13 p_l: or something similar to CL? 00:43:17 similar to SACLA 00:43:45 though possibly more limited in beginning (i.e. more like LinJ than like CL) 00:44:11 p_l: how about using sacla? 00:44:38 p_l: then both sacla and your system evolve together where possible 00:44:51 madnificent: sacla itself is written for AS3 VM, I have no idea whether it is similar at all to DVM. And I suspect it's very different 00:45:06 (beach's project is called SICL) 00:45:16 p_l: you'll likely need to fork sacla and replace a bunch of code, but that's not too bad, right? 00:45:25 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:56 p_l: can you link me to sicl? google doesn't like my search 00:46:09 true, the question is how similar the VM is - the big chunk will probably be not "lisp side", but compiler 00:46:09 p_l: nvm, found it on common-lisp.nte 00:46:27 http://common-lisp.net/project/sicl/ 00:46:48 p_l: sicl is probably the smart choice, as it is implementation agnostic. Right? 00:47:02 madnificent: I'll probably use big chunks from it 00:47:29 but for starters I wanted a very simple LinJ-like language 00:48:12 sounds fair 00:48:19 with a compiler based around something a'la threaded code, except instead of leaving threaded code for runtime to run, it would call it during compilation to run apriopriate expanders generating bytecode 00:48:48 don't forget the obvious fact that you'll need a way to interface with the java libraries 00:48:56 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:49:02 madnificent: sure 00:49:29 that was actually the reason why I wasn't thinking of a full CL port, actually 00:50:02 so I wouldn't have to think about forcing a cool peg (CLOS) into a boring hole (Java object system) 00:50:14 (I was running out of shape ideas) 00:50:24 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-78-45.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:50:25 so you just chucked the cool peg 00:50:45 Guthur: because the hole was immovable 00:50:53 p_l: that's a fair choice, I think. Just keep it as lispy as possible :) 00:50:53 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-78-45.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:51:09 p_l: why not generate java code and support future versions of bytecode too? 00:51:33 madnificent: Well, I could generate java, but then I wouldn't have COMPILE available at runtime, right? :D 00:52:23 doesn't java have something like that? the introspection framework 00:52:24 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:53:00 madnificent: yeah, but it's not available on DVM 00:53:18 and the JVM bytecode generated by existing libraries is unusable on DVM 00:53:19 ;_; 00:53:37 well, that's that 00:54:07 # dexopt# dexopt 00:54:08 Usage: don't use this 00:54:10 :/ 00:59:28 -!- Zetetic is now known as Elench 00:59:47 hmm... interesting. I just found a program called "linker" on my android 01:01:01 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:03:37 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-124-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:03 thoolihan [~thoolihan@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:48 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-138-8.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:08:21 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-18-188.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:03 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:19:43 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:21:44 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 01:22:26 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:25:06 What's clisp's site-start file? 01:25:50 (Yes, I've read the manual; yes, I've been Googling for an hour.) 01:26:05 aidalgol: doesn't ~/.clisprc work? 01:26:42 I said *site* start. i.e. system wide, not user specific. 01:27:39 aidalgol: /etc/clisprc or /etc/clisprc.lisp 01:28:15 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:28:42 marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has joined #lisp 01:29:42 -!- cowhm [~cowhm@144.sub-97-155-133.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:30:00 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:25 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:31:33 It doesn't seem to be loading it. 01:32:25 /etc/clisprc or /etc/clisprc.lisp containing only (princ "Hello, world!") doesn't cause clisp to print Hello, world! 01:32:49 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-78-45.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:33:31 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-78-45.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:33:45 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-189.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 01:36:42 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.56.132] has joined #lisp 01:37:28 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.15.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:20 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:13 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:27 Do I need to configure something when I build clisp? 01:41:23 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.132] has joined #lisp 01:41:33 aidalgol, did you check out clbuild 01:42:00 unfortunately I can't help much with clisp, I don't use that particular implementation 01:42:26 Maybe there is no such thing as a site-wide init file for clisp. I would be kind of surprised if there were, in fact. 01:42:57 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:43:55 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.56.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:44:15 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-78-45.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:44:19 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.56.132] has joined #lisp 01:44:29 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-78-45.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:45:22 hugod123 [~hugo123@bas1-montreal50-1279633458.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:47:49 Guthur: darcs complained when I used it to get clbuild, so I gave up on that route. 01:48:31 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:33 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:48:58 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: busy] 01:49:05 aidalgol, Oh yeah I think it complains but it's actually ok 01:49:10 oh he's gone 01:52:35 cowhm [~cowhm@144.sub-97-155-133.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:50 -!- cowhm [~cowhm@144.sub-97-155-133.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:00 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:58:52 -!- Elench is now known as Deus-Imperator 02:01:22 -!- Deus-Imperator is now known as Elench 02:01:45 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.132] has joined #lisp 02:02:11 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-dqsgzfbfalaidbnj] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:02:26 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-20-52.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:57 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-18-188.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:03:59 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-gjjdejtpaojgrkwj] has joined #lisp 02:04:55 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.56.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:08:48 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A69E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:07 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:21 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:11:37 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:38 -!- TomJ_ [~tomj@89.240.46.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:49 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:26:22 -!- thoolihan [~thoolihan@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: http://twitter.com/thoolihan] 02:33:13 -!- Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [] 02:33:29 Elench [~Elench@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 02:39:11 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 02:43:46 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.12.72] has joined #lisp 02:44:16 abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:36 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:46:14 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:46:14 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:47:04 _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has joined #lisp 02:50:08 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:58 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:51:50 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:54:31 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:29 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-scsijtrhexzrlltx] has joined #lisp 02:56:33 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-scsijtrhexzrlltx] has left #lisp 02:56:51 -!- toni [~toni@87-194-44-133.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:57:48 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:06:18 -!- rme [rme@clozure-1D263CDE.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:06:19 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-140-234.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:10:04 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-140-234.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:22 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-140-234.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:12:51 Because you folks are my peeps, here's a sneak peek at something I'm planning for Code Quarterly. Not lisp related but feedback would be very welcome: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/tmp/blog.html 03:13:16 phaer [~user@chello080108090109.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 03:15:29 _JFT_ [~JFT@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:15:33 *demopig* greets 03:16:12 hi 03:16:35 hello 03:16:38 -!- _JFT_ [~JFT@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:16:55 *demopig* guesses that could've all fit on about 5 lines. 03:17:21 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 03:17:26 gigamonkey: sounds like a language-agnostic Ruby Quiz (or Lisp Quiz, or..) 03:17:33 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 03:17:39 -!- abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:18:26 adeht: I suppose. I guess my main questions are 1) does the general idea (a mid-sized coding challenge with the chance that you're code will be publically critiqued/praised) sound at all interesting 03:18:39 and 2) oes the first challenge sound at all interesting 03:18:52 and I guess 3) if so, is the Markup spec understandable. 03:20:00 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:20:26 gigamonkey: Why did you type it out like that? 03:20:33 demopig: which? 03:20:48 What I just said? 03:20:56 Well, they all seem to be about 3 letters per-line ... 03:21:14 You mean the web pages. Hang on. 03:22:08 some say the ideal line length for text is 66 03:22:18 *demopig* sticks to 75. 03:22:19 which i found very reader friendly 03:22:25 demopig: is that better? 03:22:35 demopig: also good :) 03:22:40 gigamonkey: Yeah. 03:22:54 what i find unacceptable are 100+ 03:23:01 What markup spec? 03:23:01 gigamonkey: Thanks. 03:23:13 Ah, in the other page. 03:23:14 Sorry, my notebook's screen resolution is quite high so I often use the previous style when looking at stuff myself. 03:23:22 The defaults are quite tiny. 03:23:29 marioxcc: Yep. 03:23:39 gigamonkey: Oh ok. 03:23:41 Hehe. 03:24:04 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:24:09 Zhivago: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/tmp/code_challenge_markup.tar.gz 03:24:27 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:11 gigamonkey: it does look interesting.. I am not in a condition to read the spec at the moment though ;) 03:25:51 gigamonkey: What's the timeframe of submissions? 03:26:29 demopig: well, this isn't actually an official announcement yet. But when I do announce it, I'll probably give a month or two for submissions. 03:27:08 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-223.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 03:27:52 gigamonkey: I suggest you to post this kind of thing in may, so they take place in june-july, where most people is on vacations :) 03:28:32 marioxcc: Once a month a year? 03:28:40 marioxcc: well, hopefully there will be one a quarter. And the first one will be aiming for the first issue of Code Quarterly which I'm hoping to have out this fall (or maybe winter) 03:29:33 gigamonkey: the tarball/zip give 404s 03:29:35 demopig: i don't mean all years, just the years it will be published 03:29:48 adeht: yeah. This is just a preview. 03:30:00 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:08 -!- ephcon_ [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:30:26 oops 03:30:28 ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:28 demopig: just for grins, how does it look now? (Another change to the stylesheet) 03:30:37 gigamonkey: Moment. 03:30:47 -!- phaer [~user@chello080108090109.9.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:31:18 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:27 gigamonkey: Better :) 03:31:57 Good. 03:35:31 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:39:07 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:39:08 aidalgol` [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:40:46 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.114.179.221] has joined #lisp 03:42:10 oconnor [~eric@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:14 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 03:47:04 abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has joined #lisp 03:54:46 benny` [~user@i577A7F93.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:56:25 good morning 03:56:42 -!- ost` is now known as ost 03:58:28 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-11-98-21.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:00:15 psilord2 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-189.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:22 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-189.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 04:04:15 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-172.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:16 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:07:05 Good morning everyone! 04:09:03 -!- aidalgol` [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:13:21 here is still nigth, hehe :) 04:17:39 shit, it's morning already 04:18:21 p_l: Been working all night? 04:18:52 beach: not exactly working, but spent the night up anyway 04:19:01 (playing with interesting stuff, but unfortunately not work related) 04:19:03 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 04:19:24 As long as it's interesting, that's a good thing. 04:19:45 right now I'm looking at phone's boot animation silently praying it will finish booting without infinite loop 04:21:28 Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:12 hmm... 250% faster. That's what I call an upgrade xD 04:26:54 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:29:34 now if only the proxy started working then I'd be completely happy 04:31:11 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 04:32:09 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-124-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:32:43 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-109-66-31-164.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:06 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.172.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:47:51 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:50:17 -!- benny` is now known as benny 04:54:39 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Moving out of range.] 04:55:58 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-beazrskliwnyxyxa] has joined #lisp 05:01:29 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:05:54 mudge [~nick@adsl-75-42-75-203.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:56 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-246-180.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:06:04 any lisp compiler writers here? 05:06:24 how's it going lispers? 05:06:25 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-246-180.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:06:25 mudge: If you have a question, just ask. 05:06:38 okay, what's it like to write a lisp compiler? 05:07:06 mudge: Can you be more specific? 05:07:40 yea, what's it like to write a lisp compiler in assembly? 05:07:59 mudge: You wouldn't want to do that. Lisp compilers are typically written in Lisp. 05:08:44 yea. I have this insane plan to write a lisp compiler using only software I have written or fully understand the implementation of 05:08:56 mudge: So, start by writing a lisp interpreter. 05:09:07 so currently I'm writting an assembler that I want to use to write a lisp compiler 05:09:19 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 05:09:23 minion: Please tell mudge about LiSP. 05:09:23 mudge: please see LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 05:09:51 mm... yummy, lisp in small pieces sounds good 05:09:57 have you read it beach? 05:10:24 mudge: Write a lisp interpreter in assembly, then write your lisp compiler in lisp and run it on the interpreter. 05:10:29 mudge: Yes, I have, but only in original version. I hear that the English translation is even better. 05:10:43 mudge: Then compile the compiler with itself, and off you go. 05:10:58 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:11:26 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest87383 05:11:28 mudge: Do you not even accept bootstrapping your software with existing one? 05:11:29 Zhivago, beach, thanks guys 05:11:36 No problem. 05:11:49 ldunn [~user@d110-32-154-24.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:12:04 beach, the most bootstrapping I want to do is using an assembler to write my own assembler with 05:12:28 mudge: I agree with you that that's a bit insane. 05:12:58 mudge: Write the assembler in lisp. 05:13:06 compared to that, my idea regarding CL-only SBCL is quite easy... 05:13:16 beach, yea 05:13:21 Zhivago, not a bad idea 05:13:29 p_l: Can you elaborate on that idea? 05:13:51 mudge: But it's contrary to your original idea, if I understood it correctly. 05:14:56 beach: write a low-level language that can be compiled from within Lisp image and use it to reimplement C parts of SBCL. 05:14:56 i'm already on a good start in writing my assembler in assembler, writing the assembler in assembler is useful because it teaches me the assembly language that I need to implement while i'm implementing it, it's really my first serious assembly program 05:14:59 mudge: Typically, you would write an assembler in Lisp, and then temporarily use a different Lisp implementation, until you have written your Lisp compiler, also in Lisp. By that time, you are using only your own software, but you have to bootstrap with a different Lisp implementation. 05:16:17 beach: since said low-level language would be kept in style of lisp and embedded inside CL image, there would be much more stuff that could be done with it (think of it as overgrown macro assembler, if you want) 05:16:22 yea, i think I'll stick with first writing my assembler in assembler 05:16:25 mudge: The risk, of course, is that you will have to do everything over again when the machine language changes. By doing it in Lisp, you only have to rewrite the code generator. 05:16:58 beach, interesting, i hadn't thought of that 05:17:16 p_l: How about adding the low-level primitives to Lisp instead. That way, you can take advantage of existing stuff like Lisp macros? 05:17:56 -!- Guest87383 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 05:18:11 beach: it was kinda mixed between that - scaling from LAP upwards. And the code generated had to support running on base metal. But yes, the compiler would actually allow you to use lisp macros etc. 05:18:46 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Quit: Asta la vista] 05:19:08 I was thinking of making a generic "framework" for writing code generators for different architectures - the idea started as a helper for my investigation into MMIX and work in robotics course 05:19:36 so what's your guys' favorite lisp implementations? just curious 05:19:42 p_l: For instance, you could provide a vector (say the value of *memory*) which presents itself to Lisp as a vector of (unsigned-byte 64). Then you could build everything in Lisp. 05:19:53 mudge: Most people here probably use SBCL. 05:19:54 SBCL, then CCL, then ECL 05:20:02 beach: that was actually part of it 05:20:18 ah, yea, I liked SBCL when I was studying common lisp 05:20:41 the whole language wouldn't need anything from outside CL image, with possible exception of linkers (depending on the target) 05:21:57 p_l: I like that idea. In fact, I suggested it to a colleague, who argued that I would have to rewrite the syscall wrappers now in libc, and that those wrappers actually do some significant amount of work. 05:22:32 beach: there's some truth in that, however, you could always use the vdso 05:22:48 p_l: You could just generate a statically-linked executable (provided the platform supports that). 05:22:57 p_l: vdso? 05:23:08 (vdso is a "virtual" shared library loaded into process space by linux kernel, which contains platform-specific fast syscall paths) 05:23:48 p_l: What makes it "virtual"? 05:23:53 and I never said such a project couldn't link itself with libc or ld.so 05:24:02 p_l: Ah, OK. 05:24:21 beach: the file doesn't exist anywhere, the whole entry and data is part of kernel that gets mapped into all processes 05:24:32 I see. 05:25:20 p_l: Why is the functionality of vdso not implemented as part of libc? 05:25:23 If you have ever programmed on 8bit Atari, you might recall Atari OS jump table, which could be considered a similar approach 05:25:50 p_l: I have not programmed that one, I am afraid. 05:25:53 beach: because you have a) statically compiled applications b) libc might not have optimised routines for your cpu 05:26:13 OK. 05:27:00 vdso OTOH is optimized for the kernel currently running, providing common userspace API/ABI 05:27:30 all of libc's wrappers actually go through it, iirc 05:27:30 p_l: And it presents itself as C-compatible routines? 05:27:36 Running everything in a simple lisp image seems like a great step backward. 05:27:45 er, single. 05:28:09 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:29:30 beach: well, SysV-ABI compatible 05:30:11 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-10-181.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:04 I don't know exact specifics 05:32:17 p_l: Good enough for me. Thanks. 05:32:38 beach: right now I have a simpler project on mind :D 05:33:04 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-20-52.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:33:33 p_l: What's that? 05:33:40 a lisp subset generating dalvik bytecode directly, with language slightly similar to Linj 05:34:31 the whole compiler etc. done in Lisp (CL + Clojure for some support routines running on JVM, though ABCL is also an option) 05:35:03 p_l: That should keep you busy for a while. 05:35:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:35:27 beach: yeah, but first I need to go through my resits next week 05:36:05 p_l: Are you familiar with "K Lambda"? 05:36:35 Zhivago: you mean K-Machine, the register-oriented lispm? 05:36:59 (at least that's what my memory suggests to me) 05:38:23 if so, then yes (but only through a paper published some time later) 05:38:49 http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/klambda.htm 05:39:05 right. I mistakenly remembered it as "K-Machine" 05:39:55 It might be worth collaborating with Shaprio. 05:40:34 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:40:55 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 05:41:33 symbole [~symbole@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:00 hmm... the license got changed. Then I might actually go with it 05:42:49 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:46:45 -!- ry509 [~user@c-67-161-213-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:47:02 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:29 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 05:51:26 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-109-66-31-164.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:51:41 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 05:57:59 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:58:54 minion: memo for drewc: http://paste.lisp.org/+2FBB is my current take on a minimal STM for moderate levels of concurrency. 05:58:54 Remembered. I'll tell drewc when he/she/it next speaks. 06:06:43 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 06:07:41 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-119-124.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:08:47 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 06:10:37 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 06:11:03 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:48 TeMPOraL [~user@erlang.pnet.com.pl] has joined #lisp 06:13:52 Davsebamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 06:14:44 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:44 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:22:11 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:24:58 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has left #lisp 06:26:58 good morning 06:27:24 attila_lendvai 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[~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:43:33 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:43:36 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-159-36.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:43:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-42-213.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:44:08 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:52 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-253-1-52-179.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:53:17 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:53:49 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:56:48 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 08:00:19 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 08:00:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 08:00:40 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01:04 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 08:05:06 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:08:03 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:08:30 -!- beach` is now known as beach 08:08:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 08:11:14 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:11:36 hello. is it bad-style / error-prone to use the result of a print form? (i would like to reuse a macro (print-symbols a b) -> (print (list 'a a 'b b)) in order to print it the list to a file like (print (print-symbols a b) stream) -> (print (print (list 'a a 'b b)) stream)) ? 08:11:58 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 08:12:29 a macro? 08:12:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:14:14 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-beazrskliwnyxyxa] has left #lisp 08:14:16 hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:14 stassats: yes it just generates the (print (list ....)) 08:16:36 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-39-129.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:17:04 i mean, can i rely on (print object) returning object, so (print (print object) stream) writes object to stream (and to standard output)? 08:17:39 clhs print 08:17:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 08:17:54 hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@138.82-134-78.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:17:57 (it would make thing easier here, but i do not have a really good feeling about it) 08:18:16 It has nothing to do with feeling, only with what the spec says on that page. 08:18:29 Spewns [~Spewns@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:18:36 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-7-104.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:20:25 beach: yes, thanks. i read the spec before i was asking. but sometimes things are ok but are known to be a bad idea on the long term (experience). 08:21:32 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-28-106.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:21:41 ('rely was not correct, i meant 'is it a good idea to ...) 08:21:57 Ogedei [~user@e178213135.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:22:03 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:22:06 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 08:22:44 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932edc7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 08:23:12 (let ((stream (make-broadcast-stream other-stream *standard-output*))) (print ... stream)) 08:33:58 -!- inkk [ink@29.62.48.60.trm01-home.tm.net.my] has quit [K-Lined] 08:34:29 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-28-106.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:40 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:43:09 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 08:43:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 08:44:59 -!- Spewns [~Spewns@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Spewns] 08:45:10 -!- hugod123 [~hugo123@bas1-montreal50-1279633458.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:49:58 hugod123 [~hugo123@bas1-montreal50-1279440157.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:51:33 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:50 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54:11 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-154-24.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:43 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:58:53 I suppose this has been thought of before, but it was new to me: It is useful to have a low-level virtual machine implemented in Lisp so that large parts of a compiler can be tested on such a machine, making debugging the compiler a lot easier. 09:01:27 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl7-59-197.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:01:50 there is such a VM 09:02:18 CL is a reasonable target for that. 09:02:29 beach: you didn't have that stuff when you did the Data- och Programstrukturer course? Or maybe they didn't have that course when you studied 09:02:46 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:03:21 In our DPS course, we had a pretty simple register machine implemented in Scheme 09:03:40 you programmed it with a DSL which looked a lot like assembler 09:04:41 we implemented parts of a partial Scheme (called %Scheme), and among other things did some optimizations for a %Scheme -> DSL compiler 09:04:45 the compiler was written in Scheme 09:05:05 There are different levels of such a thing that could be useful for different things, and that represent different degrees of difficulty when it comes to implementing it. 09:05:06 I think converting that machine to CL would be a simple task 09:05:19 OliverUv: That's probably true. 09:05:21 yeah 09:05:24 beach, scheme48 vm was also written in a subset of scheme, so that it could be developed and tested in a real scheme 09:05:54 I've never worked on compiler stuff other than doing some minor optimizations for that one, so I don't really know what would be necessary for work on a real world compiler 09:07:41 aoh: That seems like a different approach to me though. I am not suggesting implementing the compiler in that virtual machine, just to generate code for it. 09:08:27 OliverUv: That course probably didn't exist then, though there was probably something similar. I don't recall using any such virtual machine though. 09:08:56 probably the most interesting course I've taken so far 09:09:15 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082F4CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:30 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082C431.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:10:32 -!- daniel__1 is now known as daniel 09:16:31 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0AF24.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:06 xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:08 zophy [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:10 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A60A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:41 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:00:24 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:24 15:00:24 -!- names: ccl-logbot deepfire stassats` bgs100 wbooze homie Guthur Guest63433 gigamonkey ecraven ikki fiveop syamajala sbahra udzinari TDT tsuru revel0 xinming MagBo rrice xan_ jbd Edward christoph_debian mstevens tritchey timchen1` 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16:34:55 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 16:37:09 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:43:13 slyrus_ [~slyrus@65.203.36.111] has joined #lisp 16:46:19 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-170.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:46:28 Wombatzus [~user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:54 -!- hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Quit: hanDerPeder] 16:51:48 fusss [~chatzilla@textitco.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:36 -!- NiiHiiL [~quassel@83-215-92-223.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Quit: I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubble gum.] 16:52:55 -!- revel0_ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 16:53:22 this is completely offtopic, but I know no one better to ask. I have an app that has a URL hardcoded to it, with no way to set proxy options. How can I force it to access that URL via a proxy? I need some kind of wrapper, I understand, any googlable keywords? 16:53:44 transparent proxy 16:54:14 TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:18 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-596.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:48 fusss: tsocks. 16:54:48 alright; does that somehow hook into the tcp/ip stack? 16:55:01 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 16:55:30 kickass! 16:55:53 NiiHiiL [~blah@83-215-92-223.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 16:59:59 hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 17:00:54 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:01:52 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:48 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:06:19 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:11:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@183.139.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:14:21 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 17:15:42 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.149] has joined #lisp 17:16:34 timor [~timor@port-92-195-3-121.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:16:36 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-3-121.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:49 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:17:15 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-btfxrbyqzeffhmpt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:21:08 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 17:21:25 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:24:39 -!- lispm [~joswig@d221112.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:25:16 ][V][ICHAEL [~user@207.178.208.5] has joined #lisp 17:33:28 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@textitco.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:11 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BACF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:35:47 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 17:35:57 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has left #lisp 17:36:33 madrik [~user@122.168.238.73] has joined #lisp 17:36:54 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:32 -!- madrik [~user@122.168.238.73] has left #lisp 17:39:55 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-63-160.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:40:36 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:01 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-63-160.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:43:29 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-wwfdqcqtcebbecni] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:40 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:45 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:45:55 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:17 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:47:16 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:15 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:49:23 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:32 moah [~gnu@178.1.121.200] has joined #lisp 17:50:28 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:33 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 17:53:12 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 17:53:49 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:54:16 -!- _danb_ [~user@124.149.177.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:58:56 it seems there's a problem in slime or swank: when calling (swank:eval-in-emacs :nowait), the sent data doesn't match the expected data format 17:59:13 Ogedei [~user@e178237021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:58 lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 18:02:04 eval-in-emacs isn't exported from SWANK 18:02:28 Snamich [~Snamich@75.128.11.42] has joined #lisp 18:04:34 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:52 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:58 Hello all. 18:04:58 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.6] has joined #lisp 18:05:07 hi nyef 18:05:41 I just commit sbcl 1.0.41.2 through .7, but probably screwed up the .2 commit message. 18:05:41 nyef: big commit (: 18:06:20 pkhuong_: Meh. This is the start. My current queue is not small. 18:06:39 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:06:48 pmd: would be fixed in CVS, once i defeat it (CVS) 18:07:03 I think I'll find energy to get SSE off my local repo. If it's not in the next two weeks, it won't be for another two months. 18:07:28 -!- ][V][ICHAEL [~user@207.178.208.5] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:31 I've got 30 more patches after this. 18:08:36 ouch. Do you know if SBCL builds on win7/x64? 18:09:04 I also still haven't tested much of my queue on other configurations, so it may be a few more days. 18:09:15 I have no idea about win7/x64, I'm afraid. 18:09:23 Never did manage to scare up such a system. 18:09:59 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:10:24 I could try to play with the win32 threading patches. XP compatibility mode might help. 18:10:48 Actually, one of these patches needs to be split into two.. 18:11:13 -!- zophy [~zophy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:15 -!- Guest63433 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 18:11:53 stassats`: cool, thanks 18:12:14 and it'll be exported 18:12:21 *stassats`* curses CVS heavily 18:12:47 stassats`: yes, it's not exported. i'm trying to use it in allegro so that "find definition" in the ide opens the definition in emacs 18:12:55 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:07 stassats`: and sets emacs as the foreground window 18:13:25 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@69.86.153.232] has joined #lisp 18:14:12 stassats`: this is the part i'm having trouble with. i've defined a `bring-to-front' function in emacs that i want to call from acl, but without having to (setq slime-enable-evaluate-in-emacs t) 18:14:47 but you'll have to set slime-enable-evaluate-in-emacs 18:15:17 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:19 according to the code, i don't if it's async, i.e. :eval-no-wait 18:15:26 not anymore! 18:15:34 damn... 18:16:14 ok, i'll advise slime-ed to show emacs 18:17:00 what problem are you having with cvs? 18:17:07 it's dog slow 18:17:27 -!- Eno_ [~quassel@fl-71-55-191-79.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:17:41 i'm spending more time waiting for diffs than actually fixing code 18:18:06 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.135.191] has joined #lisp 18:18:16 emacs, for some reason, doesn't want to diff against a local copy 18:19:10 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:19:35 i see. i "checkout" with git because of that slowness and line-ending transformations 18:19:57 (using the git mirror in common-lisp.net) 18:20:48 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178237021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:21:08 well, i need somehow to commit my changes, otherwise i'd be using git as well 18:21:14 nyef: I think your memory barriers for x86 are wrong; write-barrier and read barrier are generally no-ops on x86. 18:21:31 and emacs usually does a good job at saving original copies for quick diffs, except sometimes 18:21:53 the *fence operations are only usually necessary if you're doing weird stuff. 18:22:14 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 18:22:35 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:23:30 stassats`: i remember having trouble diff'ing with files which names had tildes in it, because i was using cygwin's diff, and it expanded each one to the home directory 18:23:31 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:23:39 now i use gnuwin32's diff 18:24:11 Eno_ [~quassel@fl-71-55-191-79.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:20 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:42 foom: They're copied from the linux kernel. Take it up with them? 18:24:52 nyef: 99% sure they're not 18:25:21 stassats`: git cvsexportcommit 18:25:32 in arch/x86/include/asm/system.h 18:26:10 smp_rmb() and smp_wmb() gets defined as barrier() 18:26:14 stassats`: oh, since you're at it, in swank-allegro, fspec-definition-locations's first destructuring-bind should have "(position 0)", i.e. default to 0 if not given 18:26:43 smp_mb() gets defined as mb(), which actually does end up calling mfence. 18:26:44 Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:45 that's the only one. 18:27:03 ... smp_rmb() or rmb()? 18:27:21 smp_rmb. 18:27:31 Which would explain it: I copied rmb(). 18:27:55 there shouldn't be any need for the rmb() semantics in SBCL, because it's not dealing with kernel-level stuff. 18:28:29 You're talking to the guy who mmap()ed his video card registers into SBCL's address space and hit them with SAP registers. 18:28:49 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 18:28:51 okay, sure, if you're going to map video card registers into SBCL's address space, you might need those. 18:29:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@68-228.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:29:16 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:45 -!- Eno_ [~quassel@fl-71-55-191-79.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:29:56 pmd: when can it be non-supplied? 18:30:15 Eno_ [~quassel@fl-71-55-191-79.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-106.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:30:31 Good evening everyone! 18:30:33 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has left #lisp 18:30:38 Hello beach. 18:30:41 hi beach 18:30:43 If you want to support that, I'd add a separate argument to barrier called :device or so to indicate that you're making a barrier not dealing with normal memory semantics. 18:31:06 ehu` [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 18:32:13 Well, the macro is designed for such extension, at least. 18:32:47 Or you could just take the customization back out, or whatever. 18:33:20 Either way is fine with me; I'm not planning to write device drivers in SBCL. :) But the current x86/x86-64 implementation is hugely pessimal; *fence have large overheads and are unnecessary. 18:33:54 stassats`: the value is given by acl's internals. i've had problems with that, i can give you more detail tomorrow 18:34:05 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:34:06 pmd: alright, i believe you 18:34:20 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-71.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:34:40 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:35:38 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:45 Hrm. From what I see, smp_mb() is still mb(), smp_rmb() is either rmb() or barrier(), and smp_wmb() is either wmb() or barrier(), depending on some config flags. 18:35:46 pmd: what name can i include into ChangeLog to refer to you? 18:36:13 so that you get all the blame! or fame 18:36:14 stassats`: Paulo Madeira 18:36:37 Yes there do exist config flags to make it do use rmb/wmb, but you shouldn't have them turned on. 18:36:52 Because nobody uses PPRO or OOSTORE? 18:36:58 -!- Eno_ [~quassel@fl-71-55-191-79.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37:02 nyef: would it be possible to encapsulate some in macro a call to some external compiler, then include the generated binary in the body of the macro? (basically "swallowing" small, optimized functions generated by specialized compiler) 18:37:31 I don't think anybody uses an x86 with OOSTORE, and the CONFIG_X86_PPRO_FENCE says 18:37:31 Old PentiumPro multiprocessor systems had errata that could cause memory operations to violate the x86 ordering standard in rare cases. Enabling this option will attempt to work around some (but not all) occurances of this problem, at the cost of much heavier spinlock and memory barrier operations. 18:37:33 p_l: I can't parse that. 18:37:37 If unsure, say n here. Even distro kernels should think twice before enabling this: there are few systems, and an unlikely bug. 18:38:18 Eno_ [~quassel@fl-71-55-191-79.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:24 p_l: we're talking about one instruction per barrier here. 18:39:05 Okay, killing the ppro and oostore stuff is at least not a loss, since we apparently never officially supported such targets anyway (per commentary in the spinlock code). 18:39:09 nyef: ah, my bad. Basically I want to write a macro that will then during compilation use an external compiler to generate short, highly-optimized naked binary routine, then included with some boilerplate in place of the macro 18:39:23 pkhuong_: sorry, just butted in due to strange idea 18:39:44 p_l: Somewhat hackish, but doable. 18:39:45 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:40:47 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 18:41:00 nyef: http://paulmck.livejournal.com/20061.html , http://paulmck.livejournal.com/20312.html 18:43:15 p_l: shouldn't be too hard, even doable with a single VOP, I think. 18:43:30 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: will install proprietary nvidia driver...] 18:44:10 tankrim [~user@c-2ffce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:44:10 -!- tankrim [~user@c-2ffce255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Changing host] 18:44:11 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 18:45:32 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:55 -!- sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:47:05 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 18:47:19 Vecklock [~Vecklock@adsl-163-37-28.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:15 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:49:23 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:50:28 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 18:50:44 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-48-170.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:14 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:06 vtz [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 18:53:49 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:53:49 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:49 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:53:49 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:28 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 18:54:41 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:46 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:47 sellout [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-169-114.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:56:03 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:56:49 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:21 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:43 -!- vtz [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:57:58 vtz [~user@83.228.48.88] has joined #lisp 18:58:12 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-10-181.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:31 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:58 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-172.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:00:21 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-10-181.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:22 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:00:53 Komi [Komi@83.231.60.25] has joined #lisp 19:01:01 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-596.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:03:11 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:03:16 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:53 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:04:15 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-10-181.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:41 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-10-181.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:05:00 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:08:55 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:48 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:45 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12:29 so there is no way to turn Lisp code into asm code (and opcodes) and every lisp executable has to either have a lisp interpreter or carry it along? 19:12:58 <_3b> Hraban: your question is broken 19:13:05 Hraban: You are confused. 19:13:19 *Hraban* hurt himself in his confusion 19:13:19 <_3b> Hraban: many lisps compile to native code, /and/ require a runtime to be included 19:13:46 but that's bytecode then, no? 19:13:50 Hraban: And what _3b says is no different from any other language. 19:13:51 no 19:13:53 Hraban: no 19:13:56 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:14:08 <_3b> no more than any other x86 (for example) binary is 'bytecode' 19:14:14 Hraban: bytecode is something very specific. It's interpreted by a virtual machine. 19:14:28 well, then what is the runtime? 19:14:52 Hraban: depends. Usually, the runtime is stuff like the garbage collector, OS-interface library, etc etc. 19:14:54 <_3b> most compiled C code requires a runtime as well, it is just much more likely to be part of the OS or installed by default than for lisp 19:15:14 In the case of SBCL, the "runtime" is in charge of core image loading and saving, garbage collection, and dealing with the disaster that is unix signals. 19:15:29 Oh, and starting additional threads. 19:15:31 Hraban: SBCL and CCL, though, also require you to include the _compiler_. 19:15:55 (something that can probably be fixed, but that's the state of things right now) 19:16:07 hmm 19:16:38 but that's just a detail. Some implementations can strip Lisp down to only the basics, maybe less. 19:16:43 vtz` [~user@83.228.48.88] has joined #lisp 19:16:44 <_3b> the problem is more that most lisps don't provide any easy way to separate the runtime/standard libs/etc to be installed separately 19:17:04 _3b: it's not like Common Lisp makes it easy to do so, either... 19:17:11 This problem has been deemed to be "not a problem" by many, and "not a priority" by many others. 19:17:14 specially when you consider your implementation MOP-compliant :\ 19:17:41 -!- vtz [~user@83.228.48.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:18:01 <_3b> sykopomp: that sounds more like a problem for 'no-compiler' rather than 'separate compiler 19:21:52 Hraban: What gave you all these strange ideas? 19:21:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@dsl-242-22-74.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:22:19 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:25:31 beach: well, I'm not that well versed in computer science :p the only language I really understand somewhat is C, but I never really delved in libraries or other forms of system interfacing 19:25:40 _3b: implementing the MOP can involve runtime compilation. 19:26:09 <_3b> pkhuong_: right, i'm not saying get rid of the compiler, just separate it out so it doesn't need duplicated in every binary 19:26:57 Hraban: But surely, since you asked this question, something or someone must have given you that idea. And I am interested because my students sometimes think the same thing, and I would like to know why, which is why I was asking what made you think that. 19:27:35 Hraban, try (disassemble (lambda (x) (* x 2))) 19:27:41 well, all Lisp tutorials I have gone through so far just worked with an interpreter and only talked about saving/loading work in the forms of (load "filename") 19:28:00 Hraban: a REPL is not an interpreter. 19:28:02 vtz`` [~user@83.228.48.88] has joined #lisp 19:28:05 well what _3b said has merit, having it separate would be logistically better 19:28:10 Hraban: To you, what is the definition of an "interpreter"? 19:28:10 <_3b> Hraban: are you sure the 'interpreters' you use aren't compiling? 19:28:21 _3b: they _are_ compiling. They have to. 19:28:22 not having to duplicate the runtime in every executable 19:28:28 -!- vtz` [~user@83.228.48.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:28:31 err, clisp? o_O the REPL loop thingy? 19:28:48 basically that thing with the prompt that returns stuff when I put other stuff in it :> 19:28:59 Hraban: that's called a REPL, not an interpreter. 19:29:14 Hraban: What is it in your definition of "interpreter" that makes you think it is one. 19:29:30 <_3b> sykopomp: nothing requires compilation at the repl 19:29:47 it interprets my human words and chunks out code that gets executed and turns the returned stuff into legible things? 19:29:48 <_3b> (but nothing prevents it either, which was my point) 19:30:18 Hraban: So the C you have been using could very well be an interpreter? 19:30:29 well, the compiler, sure 19:30:42 except it didn't return stuff, my program had to see to that 19:30:53 here goes confusion 19:31:11 Hraban: You really *are* confused. 19:31:17 ._. 19:31:22 It's a shame they never thought of such separability when drawing up the spec 19:31:28 I can't help it 19:32:13 _3b: everything requires minimal compilation, no? 19:32:14 the only thing I know is "load number in eax, call interrupt, tada, your request gets served by the OS" 19:32:23 is the repl an exception I don't know about? 19:32:29 <_3b> sykopomp: only compilation requires minimal compilation 19:32:36 anything higher than that in the forms of libraries or linked objects or etc. is a dark area 19:32:37 <_3b> sykopomp: so only COMPILE or COMPILE-FILE 19:32:54 Hraban: This is why the question is important to me. My students think: slow is bad (fair enough), interpreted is slow (OK as well usually), Lisp is interpreted (false), so Lisp is bad (false conclusion due to false premises). 19:33:11 Guthur: Oddly enough, they kindof -did-, but it's extremely rare to have a lisp system that does it. 19:33:25 <_3b> sykopomp: sbcl and ccl tend to compile everything by default, but it isn't required 19:33:29 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:33:47 nyef: Oh, interesting, is there details in CLHS? 19:33:49 (I see no EAX here... Oh wait, this is an x86-64, it's RAX... And this is a PPC, I don't know which register it is there...) 19:33:55 _3b: ah. I thought the process of expanding symbol macros, compiler macros, and regular macros was considered 'minimal compilation'. Sorry. 19:34:05 beach: maybe if I had had more experience with OO languages I'd understand things like garbage collectors and such as a runtime environment :\ 19:34:10 Guthur: Not exactly. But they paid lip-service to several things that nobody ever did, such as subsetting. 19:34:19 Hraban: So I am still interested in knowing what gave you the impression that you stated in your first question. 19:34:24 lispm [~lispm@d221112.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 19:34:37 <_3b> sykopomp: right, that 'minimal compilation' is the minimum a conformaing implementation can do when told to compile something 19:34:42 beach, actually I thought the same thing when I first came to lisp. I think it has to do with the similarity of the REPL to interpreted languages, like bash or perl, versus using something like C, where there is an explicit save -> compile -> run user experience. 19:35:10 well, I compiled (defun hello () (format t "hello, world")) and it gave me a 5.4 MB file, executing it dropped me back in clisp, so I just assumed clisp copied itself in the executable 19:35:17 Hraban: libc is a runtime 19:35:50 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:36:00 Hraban: it does (include itself in the executable). 19:36:08 nyef: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_g.htm 19:36:13 Hraban: And how would it follow from that experience that it is impossible to turn Lisp code into machine instructions? 19:36:16 hehe, not much though 19:36:30 i thought libraries were just additional functions that were common enough, turned into already-binaries, and linked to your program image at runtime 19:36:33 Hraban: that's not compilation, that's making of executables 19:36:46 Guthur: Right, as I said, lip-service. 19:36:49 vtz``` [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:37:18 beach: well, I can write C programs for computers that don't have C compilers, I just assumed I could do the same with Lisp 19:37:30 oconnore: I can see that. But I can't figure out who told these people that interactive implies interpreted. Nor can I figure out who told them that *languages* are interpreted or compiled, as opposed to *implementations* of languages. 19:37:36 Hraban: what stassats` said -- compilation is the process of translating code from source to target. Not the process of building a runnable file. 19:37:41 -!- vtz`` [~user@83.228.48.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:37:47 can you write C programs that don't have libc? 19:37:54 for the computers 19:38:10 Hraban: But that has nothing to do with the question you ask, so I am still asking: what gave you the idea that Lisp cannot be turned into machine code? 19:38:14 nyef: ya, I got the link to that from an article discussing the situation, apparently they felt it would have been difficult to draw up a universally acceptable subset. 19:38:16 stassats`: yes :) 19:38:18 stassats`: of course you can. How do you think linux is compiled? 19:38:21 beach: aren't _languages_ compiled? 19:38:52 sykopomp: no, languages are not compiled 19:38:54 sykopomp: I don't think so, no. At least not with some usual definitions of `compiled'. 19:38:55 as in, when you decide to compile something, you go from languageA to languageB :) 19:38:55 that's not what i meant 19:39:27 *lispm* programs are getting compiled 19:39:33 sykopomp: a compiler translates a sentence in one language to a sentence in another (which may be the same language) 19:39:54 beach, people recognize patterns. If you see 10 blue birds, you will expect the 11th to be blue too, unless you already know that green birds exist too. 19:40:04 adeht: that's what I meant, yes. I know you can have source lang to source lang compilation. 19:40:14 beach: because I can (theoretically) put a C program on a floppy and fiddle with the first sector and have it boot, but not the same with Lisp? 19:40:14 I didn't mean 'languages are inherently compiled or not' 19:40:20 oconnore: Yeah, that's probably it. 19:40:30 Hraban: wrong 19:40:32 sykopomp: Oh, but that's what I meant. 19:40:40 sykopomp: so, it's not the languages that are compiled (translated), it's the sentences, or expressions, in those languages 19:40:40 :( 19:40:43 beach: okay. That clarifies it :) 19:41:06 minion: please tell Hraban about movitz 19:41:07 Hraban: please look at movitz: Movitz is a Common Lisp implementation that targets the x86 PC architecture "on-the-metal". http://www.cliki.net/movitz 19:41:15 adeht: I wouldn't expect anything less than the most extreme level of nitpickiness from this channel. Thanks. 19:41:19 oconnore: this is nonsense 19:41:27 what is nonsense? 19:41:31 this. 19:41:37 oconnore: your "induction" hypothesis 19:41:57 *_3b* thought it sounded reasonable... people build a mental model, sometimes that mental model is wrong 19:42:21 Guthur: The thing is, you don't need a "universally accepted" subset for making a subset to be a reasonable thing to do. 19:42:41 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932edc7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 19:42:47 3b: that's right, but that's not what oconnore's conditional statement says 19:42:50 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:56 i always consider relativistic effects when i ride my bicycle 19:43:06 [mzm] [~ziggy@de1-as20249.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #lisp 19:43:06 Hraban: wrong in both ways. You can't put a C program on a floppy and boot it, because C requires things like i/o, which is part of the runtime environment of C. And just the way you can fiddle with your C program in some implementations so that you can boot it, there are Lisp systems that can do the same, like Movitz mentioned before. 19:43:32 adeht, python, perl, bash, dash, zsh, php... etc. All dynamic languages that you don't have to explicitly "compile", all of them are interpreted (in the common implementation). 19:43:37 Hraban: So, I am still waiting for an answer, what made you think that Lisp cannot be turned into machine code? 19:43:43 what conclusions would you draw as an ignorant student? 19:43:49 adeht, I would call it Baesian reasoning. The expectation for the output increases with the incidents. The world after all is not logical but statistical. All we have is a number indicating our degree of confidense. 19:43:53 because I thought an interpreter was like java? o_O I don't know 19:43:56 python is kind of compiled 19:44:09 the only interpreter/runtime I know is java, therefore all interpreters/runtimes are like java ? 19:44:13 Hraban: clisp, the implementation, uses a similar strategy. 19:44:21 younder: this is not "Bayesian reasoning" 19:44:26 Hraban: other common lisp implementations do not necessarily take this approach. 19:44:38 *_3b* thinks this discussion has fragmented beyond usefulness :p 19:44:51 *Hraban* is just confused and hopes a grue doesn't eat him 19:45:01 oconnore: As a student, I would listen to my professors, and if they don't provide the right answers, I would change to a different university. 19:45:04 -!- spytheman66 [~delian@95.111.111.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:45:07 *Guthur* spots an approaching grue 19:45:11 lispm, really? I'm not particularly familiar with it. 19:45:17 beach: how many universities did you have to switch? 19:45:35 sykopomp: I was pretty happy with the answers I got. 19:45:42 because I don't know any professors, no matter how good, that can really provide 'the right answers' no matter what you ask. 19:45:51 beach, do they actually argue with you after you explain it? 19:45:53 Hraban: Not at all. Like I said, I am just interested how these strange opinions form. 19:46:00 sykopomp: did you ask P=NP? 19:46:44 -!- vtz``` [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:46:53 oconnore: That does happen yes. Especially those who start off knowing C or C++ and hate Lisp (because they are close minded). Accepting fact would mean losing face, so they prefer to deny facts. 19:46:59 vtz``` [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:47:09 stassats`: a professor told me once that dynamic languages are useless, and that Java's static typing makes it superior to everything else available. 19:47:46 beach: I guess oconnore was closest to what I meant... you don't need an OS to run assembly, you need an OS to run C, you need bash to run bash scripts, you need a JRE to run java... o_O 19:47:57 at least he has an opinion! 19:48:06 beach, maybe you should pick new students :P 19:48:07 he was the head of the CS department. 19:48:16 Hraban: Ah, so to you, it is impossible to turn C into machine code? 19:48:17 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:48:27 oconnore: Not a choice here in France. 19:48:31 Hraban: need is a strong word 19:48:31 ah 19:48:38 beach: well, it's possible certainly, but it has to pack every function itself and can't rely on libraries 19:48:47 he was responsible for pulling the SICP course out of the university's curriculum and replacing it with "programming methodology", which was a course exclusively for learning Eclipse, SVN, and Design Patterns in Java. 19:49:07 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:49:20 (disclaimer: my obviously-wrong world-view is not an opinion, merely an interpretation :> ) 19:49:39 Hraban: you do need an OS to run assembly.. indeed, the World is the ultimate operating system 19:49:46 oconnore: In France, every person with a high-school diploma has the right to go to university. We have to adapt our pedagogical methods to that. 19:49:50 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 19:51:10 sykopomp: I am sorry to hear that there are colleagues of mine out there that are close minded as well, but we (as a discipline) are in no way protected from infiltration by people like that. 19:51:41 beach: he's the reason I've pretty much decided to not do a Master's. :\ 19:52:01 couldn't you do it at a different university? 19:52:05 unless I can show up at a university with a thesis completed in my own time and get a diploma for it. 19:52:23 sykopomp: Oh, I am terribly sorry to hear that. Would you like to come to Bordeaux instead? 19:52:32 stassats`: I'm not confident that the case would be any different in most other universities, and I don't care to travel around the country until I find one that will both accept me, and not have this silliness in it. 19:52:38 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-140-234.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:52:53 beach: I would consider it if my life opened up that path for me. 19:53:02 sykopomp: I would not limit myself to your current country of residence. 19:53:26 there are other things that can limit you 19:53:27 beach: family and spouse considerations make choices like this more difficult. 19:53:36 sykopomp: True. 19:53:43 -!- bougyman [bougyman@bougyman.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:53:43 bougyman [bougyman@pdpc/supporter/gold/bougyman] has joined #lisp 19:54:04 but I appreciate the offer :) 19:55:04 entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-jlydtlbebkehmemc] has joined #lisp 19:55:47 -!- lispm [~lispm@d221112.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:49 vtz```` [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 19:57:52 -!- vtz``` [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:59:50 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:00:02 beach: can you recommend any books that teach about programming languages? (not to program but to clarify concepts such as runtime and interpreters and libraries and (that's all I can think of, really))? 20:00:58 Hraban: Tough one. At least Lisp in Small Pieces will give you some info. 20:01:06 minion: tell Hraban about LiSP. 20:01:06 Hraban: direct your attention towards LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 20:01:21 thanks :) 20:01:24 -!- sellout [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-169-114.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:02:13 Hraban: It is probably one of those books I should consider writing one day. 20:03:58 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 20:04:36 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:25 Hraban: Basically, there are different levels of runtime support needed. For C, you need access to system calls and i/o routines and other convenience functions in the library. For higher-level languages like Java, you also need more sophisticated memory management with a garbage collector. For Lisp, it is required that the compiler be present at runtime, so another level of support is needed. 20:06:12 well, *frequently* it is required for the compiler to be present at runtime. 20:06:24 sellout [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-37-227.w90-45.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:07:12 can I assume the runtime (such as the garbage collector) to be something akin to a dynamic library full of functions that are woven around the main program (the one the programmer actually writes) by the compiler? 20:07:45 oconnore: It is very hard to create a test that will make sure that the compiler is not required. 20:07:49 *nyef* notes that one of the requirements for COMPILE-FILE involves either having the compiler as part of the image, having the compiler in intimate communication with the image, or forking a copy of the image for the compiler to talk with. 20:08:28 Hraban: Sure, the same as in any language, like printf in C. 20:09:37 so why do you need the compiler for Lisp? if the program is already compiled? 20:09:42 Heh. I remember fixing a printf bug once... NetBSD libsa, IIRC. 20:10:40 Hraban: Because Lisp has a function called EVAL that requires the compiler. And various other parts of the system may take advantage of this requirement, such as recompiling generic functions for optimization. 20:10:43 beach, why do you need a test? (save-application :include-compiler nil) 20:11:07 or (save-application :i-will-not-use-symbol-trickery-to-call-eval t) 20:11:15 oconnore: And just fail when the program does (apply (read) args)? 20:11:27 :i-will-not-use-clos-and-mop t 20:11:45 ahh, so that's how it's able to create functions on the fly, that makes sense 20:12:17 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-119-124.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:13:11 beach, in some cases it could be cool. and in small applications failing like that would be a good trade off for the space saved. 20:13:39 Hraban: Most function creation doesn't require the compiler, such as the use of lambda, because the compiler will compile the body of that expression, and all that is required at runtime is to turn it into a closure, but it is quite handy to have the compiler around when you want to optimize CLOS and MOP as stassats` pointed out. 20:14:14 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:15:01 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-39-129.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:15:28 so when I compile a program, it gets turned into code for the metal? 20:15:43 Hraban: In most Lisp implementations, yes. 20:16:16 yes, I see now, much clearer :> 20:16:49 vtz````` [~user@83.228.48.88] has joined #lisp 20:16:53 thanks 20:16:59 Hraban: anytime! 20:17:05 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-33-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:17:07 err [~user@lawn-143-215-116-235.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 20:17:46 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.60.25] has quit [] 20:18:15 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:18:44 -!- vtz```` [~user@87-126-255-94.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:19:19 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:46 avallark [~user@59.93.22.124] has joined #lisp 20:19:52 hello all :) 20:20:00 hello avallark 20:20:03 hello 20:20:33 stassats`: good evening! how come its silent up here 20:20:48 avallark: It isn't. 20:20:49 trying to refresh lisp 20:21:05 beach:aah greetings! 20:21:21 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:37 avallark: We just had a great discussion about interpretation vs compilation, and the consequences of that. What made you think it was silent? 20:21:47 Hraban: you should also take into account that hardware and software is a continuum.. 20:21:48 just sat down and made a single pdf of the practical lisp book.. i wonder why they cant provide a single pdf file straight away! 20:22:03 they can, but they don't anymore 20:22:24 -!- vtz````` [~user@83.228.48.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:24 beach: i just came in and got a little impatient to speak with some one i guess ;) sorry mate! 20:22:45 stassats`:that sucks! 20:22:52 avallark: Are you from Australasia? 20:22:59 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:23:01 well anyway .. i just made that for both the books 20:23:15 beach: I am from India :) 20:23:16 Have any OS X users among you fine folk had as much trouble getting paredit's default barfage/slurpage commands working in console emacs? I don't think Terminal.app plays nicely with C-( , C-) , C-{ , C-} 20:23:19 maybe it sucks not to have it, though i've never used it 20:23:42 err: why not just use a graphical emacs session? 20:23:52 i generally do; 20:23:57 ssh? 20:24:19 nope local machine 20:24:26 stassats`: i just sat and made the single pdf out of these two books http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html and http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 20:24:33 if anyone wants them i could email it to them 20:24:56 I'm not sure that's kosher for PCL? 20:24:58 *beach* would bet that doing so is illegal, but he is not sure. 20:25:38 sykopomp: i was wondering the same 20:25:38 we won't tell gigamonkey 20:26:10 avallark: did you see anything on the /book page granting you permission to distribute such a pdf? 20:26:10 i was just wondering why they would do such a thing as to provide the whole book online as html, but wouldnt provide a single ps or single .pdf file 20:26:38 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:42 sykopomp: i do not think so, my mistake .. i guess i wont. 20:26:51 :) 20:26:59 avallark: in any case -- I highly recommend actually getting a dead tree version. 20:27:05 it's a great book to have on your shelf :D 20:27:30 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.135.191] has quit [Quit: bye!] 20:27:53 i was trying to get a deadtree version, but it would take 2 weeks to get it delivered, so i thought i ll wait till i get to spain before i order the book 20:28:05 i am just using the book now to refresh my lisp 20:28:09 used to be good at it 20:28:17 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.133.50] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 20:28:24 how long ago was this? 20:28:58 i remember for our campus placements back in 2002, cyprus semiconductors had asked a lot of questions on algorithms and stuff to be written in C, but i refused to write in C and wrote all that in lisp :)) 20:29:15 2002 i guess =)) 20:29:20 cheeky :) 20:29:56 of course they dinn pick me .. but maybe i shud have written all that in C, i ended up working in pl/sql for oracle !! 20:30:08 *yikes* 20:30:11 :( 20:30:55 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:14 ok, fellas quick simple question, on emacs what mode do i use for common lisp 20:31:15 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:21 avallark: lisp-mode. 20:31:25 wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:26 And install SLIME. 20:31:27 avallark: the superior lisp interaction mode for emacs. 20:31:39 and cherish paredit 20:31:46 installing slime! thanks! 20:31:56 and don't use the online SLIME docs. 20:31:59 ...until mac terminal clobbers/ignores your keybindings 20:32:12 sykopomp: why not? 20:32:25 adeht: they're out of date? 20:32:33 or has that been fixed? 20:32:43 where do i get the docs then? 20:32:52 sykopomp: depends on what you want to get from them 20:32:54 avallark: doc/ in the slime distribution. 20:33:09 sure 20:33:14 sykopomp:thanks 20:33:18 sykopomp: simple installation + setting up contribs should work 20:33:19 adeht: I'd rather not touch outdated docs. Subtly wrong information is more dangerous than obviously wrong. 20:33:20 oh well, i don't have write permissions for slime docs 20:33:40 topo_ [~topo@p57B9BE02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:41 though i can fix index.html to point to another docs 20:34:02 stassats`: that would be nice! 20:34:36 though updating them every time doesn't seem great 20:35:04 -!- topo [~topo@p57B9F82E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:35:07 i found this on common-lisp.net common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/slime.pdf >> SLIME User Manual version 3.0-alpha 20:35:08 stassats: looks like the job for a script 20:35:27 looks like a job for having some kind of release cycle. 20:35:27 adeht: that's what i meant 20:35:45 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:46 sykopomp: haha 20:35:48 sykopomp: sure, would be a release manager? 20:35:53 would you 20:36:05 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:07 avallark: that's outdated 20:36:16 aah.. good i asked 20:36:22 stassats` thanks 20:36:23 stassats`: if you don't care about having someone who has no idea about the details of SLIME dictating when the latest version is released, I would. 20:37:16 sykopomp: i, personally, don't care about releases, but my word is nothing, you need to talk to Helmut Eller 20:37:44 does he hang out around here? 20:37:49 no 20:38:14 is he accessible through the/a slime mailing list? 20:38:21 yes 20:38:38 hm. 20:38:47 actually, probably better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. 20:38:52 s/better/easier/ 20:39:32 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:39:43 minion: what's up? 20:39:44 not much 20:40:06 so, i just can't resolve common-lisp.net? 20:40:21 wfm 20:40:22 oh, now i can 20:40:28 wfm2 20:41:25 though it looks sluggish 20:42:09 loading pages near-instantly here. 20:42:25 it oscillates here 20:42:54 http://common-lisp.net/stats.shtml seems a bit out of date, though. 20:43:56 -!- benny [~user@i577A7F93.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:44:09 -!- avallark [~user@59.93.22.124] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:45:06 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:20 josemanuel [~josemanue@143.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:45:49 ok, automatic documentation update can be done 20:46:02 maybe sometimes later 20:46:10 stassats`: thanks :) 20:46:27 you don't know my "later" yet! 20:47:23 I have faith in you! 20:47:24 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48:12 avallark [~user@59.93.22.124] has joined #lisp 20:48:21 hey all, am back 20:48:24 jmbr [~jmbr@26.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:48:29 the slime startup is sweeeeeeeeeet! 20:48:39 me encanta! 20:48:45 have you already read all those books? 20:48:59 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:49:06 lol 20:49:27 sellout- [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-95-199.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:49:31 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@65.203.36.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:49:39 stassats`: though I do appear worldly and confident and superman-ish , i still am human ;) 20:50:12 minion: are you a human? 20:50:13 no 20:50:19 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:51:07 -!- sellout [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-37-227.w90-45.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:51:07 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 20:51:29 albino: Hacks and glory await! 20:51:41 Err... Damned tab-completion. 20:51:55 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.133.50] has joined #lisp 20:51:55 That was meant for avallark, not albino. 20:52:03 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 20:55:30 nyef: thanks mate! .. i feel quite n00bish heheh .. like that feeling actually 21:01:51 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:03:48 pkhuong_: i like that mini STM paste, very concise. 21:03:48 drewc, memo from pkhuong_: http://paste.lisp.org/+2FBB is my current take on a minimal STM for moderate levels of concurrency. 21:03:56 yeah, that one. 21:04:00 MagBo [~Sweater@mpe-2-170.mpe.lv] has joined #lisp 21:04:33 drewc: helps that I don't try to make anything transparent. 21:04:35 ... Would that STM work for me, or does it also need memory barriers for PPC? 21:05:03 -!- avallark [~user@59.93.22.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:07 nyef: there might be one or two non-CASed write that should include a barrier. 21:05:24 but since the acquisition writes are CASed, it might be good enough. 21:05:41 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:06:05 avallark [~user@59.93.22.124] has joined #lisp 21:06:17 Fair enough. I'll not audit it unless I decide I need it. 21:07:25 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:38 drewc: I'm trying to figure out how to handle object-level rollback. 21:09:00 pkhuong_: one could wrap in in a BIND/RETURN type interface and have STM-LET* if one wanted some transparency, but i don't mind explicit at all. 21:09:56 actually, macrolet would be enough. 21:10:54 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:11:08 -!- moah [~gnu@178.1.121.200] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:13:30 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-31-66.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:14:14 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:14:48 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-23-78.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:15:12 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:15:52 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:19:15 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:20:22 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 21:21:41 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:24:07 Lis [~Lis@p5B204054.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:22 abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:07 xabolxuux [~kotee@94-21-30-36.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 21:28:27 -!- avallark [~user@59.93.22.124] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:28:32 -!- xabolxuux [~kotee@94-21-30-36.pool.digikabel.hu] has left #lisp 21:34:42 -!- hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Quit: hanDerPeder] 21:34:55 pkhuong_: true enough.. i just like monadic-style code i guess, and see it everywhere :) 21:35:01 xabolxuux [~kotee@94-21-30-36.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #lisp 21:35:19 -!- xabolxuux [~kotee@94-21-30-36.pool.digikabel.hu] has left #lisp 21:36:42 -!- akamaus [~maus@94.231.115.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:37:00 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722150226]] 21:37:57 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 21:39:31 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:39:47 hanDerPeder [~hanDerPed@c92FBBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 21:40:09 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 21:43:36 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 21:45:05 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 21:45:59 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.93.205.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:26 -!- entropax [~entropi@nat/intel/x-jlydtlbebkehmemc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:34 entropax [~entropi@192.55.55.39] has joined #lisp 21:50:48 -!- entropax [~entropi@192.55.55.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:08 entropax [~entropi@192.55.55.39] has joined #lisp 21:51:25 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-132-106-62.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:28 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:53:04 ... Is the git repository usually hours behind cvs, or is this a new situation, or am I now looking in the wrong place? 21:53:25 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 21:53:34 it's usually within 10-20 minutes 21:53:49 <_3b> i seem to remember there being some problem with the mirroring a few days ago, not sure if that ever got resolved 21:54:23 -!- abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:58:19 nyef: just when I need membars (: 21:59:03 -!- NiiHiiL [~blah@83-215-92-223.stjo.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:59:04 pkhuong_: Yeah, and when I'm sortof waiting for git to catch up so I can sync everything up... And, per foom, I have some changes to make to the x86 and x86-64 versions. 21:59:04 Hi! I'm making a trie implementation, and I'm having trouble with this traversal function: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113183 21:59:26 -!- Vecklock [~Vecklock@adsl-163-37-28.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Vecklock] 21:59:30 ... What? Why CHECK-TYPE? 21:59:38 Could you tell what I'm doing wrong, or how could I make it prnt right. 21:59:39 Anyone know of any programming contests/challenges along the lines of Project Euler, [Lisp|Perl|Ruby] Quiz? 22:00:01 abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:04 ... And you're modifying a parameter variable? Bad style at best, and usually indicates a confusion about how parameters work. 22:00:15 gigamonkey: spoj.pl 22:01:09 Might also help to have more background than just the traversal function. 22:01:30 The check-type is quite superfluous on this traversal, but useful on other functions. And when making this one. 22:02:24 Mmm. I'd just have used DECLARE, myself. 22:02:56 The tries are built using recursion. And each node is a trie in itself. 22:03:28 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:59 The WHEN in the LAMBDA is superfluous or should be testing for branches on B instead of TRIE. 22:04:08 -!- abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:04:25 Hrm. 22:04:32 Newer versions. 22:04:48 anyone know what common causes of Lisp nesting exceeds `max-lisp-eval-depth' in SLIME? not sure how to debug emacs lisp code 22:05:24 infinite recursion? 22:05:43 stassats`: thanks. 22:05:44 M-x toggle-debug-on-error 22:05:56 or tell me how to reproduce 22:07:38 peterhil: I'm rather at a loss, largely due to not knowing what the actual -problem- is. 22:08:00 nyef: Thanks. I'll look at that in a momet... 22:08:26 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:01 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 22:10:28 Well, the first version actually prints right. And the second is a mess after two hour juggling, but points out the thing I am wondering. I do not want the (nil)s there... 22:12:30 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:12:31 Guthur_ [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:35 stassats`: it seems to happen after I have been in emacs for a long time. The call stack in *backtrace* looks like http://paste.lisp.org/display/113190 22:14:10 -!- sellout [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-95-199.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:14:50 -!- Guthur_ [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:15:07 stassats`: it looks like slime-dispatch-events is present on the backtrace as many times as errors that I have debugged the whole session 22:15:22 i've seen something like this, though i couldn't reproduce 22:16:15 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-132-106-62.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:16:32 -!- smokecfh [~user@5ED1C224.cable.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:18 stassats`: i've got the emacs session live still, if you have any ideas for debugging it I can still eval emacs code 22:17:50 actually, i don't, except for "thinking hard" 22:17:52 peterhil: what -do- you want for empty subtrees, then? 22:19:10 peterhil: You might benefit from writing out a definition of the behavior you want, without reference to the function you have, then writing the function. 22:19:23 gonzojive: though you can annotate that with *slime-events* 22:19:40 (That precise debugging method has helped me an awful lot: Define the problem/solution first, then debug the code.) 22:19:49 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:52 because i can't provoke "thinking hard" part 22:20:28 sellout [~greg@ABordeaux-257-1-119-114.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:20:52 stassats`: unfortunately, I have killed my slime-events buffer. 22:22:11 shouldn't it resurrect? 22:23:10 nyef: That was a good idea! I actually just to want to traverse the trie doing something. In this case printing out the *WORDS* the trie contains, not the nodes. :-) 22:23:57 And I have a fundemantal flaw, of not marking the word endings... 22:25:57 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:15 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:51 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:17 peterhil: This is actually a variant on the Feynman method of problem-solving. 22:29:38 (1. Write down the problem. 2. Think real hard. 3. Write down the solution.) 22:32:50 well, it appears that I am deep in a recursive edit due to SLDB-SETUP. i'm not sure if this is SLIME's fault or mine 22:33:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-106.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:33:27 i'd blame slime 22:33:59 *_3b* would blame slime-proxy if it is involved :p 22:33:59 Great, I haven't heard about that Feynman algorithm of problem solving. I have to start exercising the first step more... :-) 22:34:01 urandom_ [~user@p548A46F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:54 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:35:55 Guthur_ [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:07 _3b: yes, indeed. i'm trying to figure out what slime/slime-proxy should be doing to cancel recursive edits. I kill SLDB buffers periodically, and this may be may be leading to zombie recursive edits 22:36:24 -!- Guthur_ is now known as Guthur 22:36:44 <_3b> well, one problem i had was leaking continuations, which tended to confuse slime once in a while 22:37:04 lispm [~joswig@d221112.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:14 <_3b> possibly there is something similar for synchronous slime-eval stuff 22:40:40 _3b: i should say that i have not opened any buffes in slime-proxy mode, but i do load slime-parenscript in slime-setup 22:40:50 what was the leaky continuations problem? 22:41:11 <_3b> ah, wouldn't epect it to be able to cause problems if not going through the proxy 22:41:52 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42:04 <_3b> i think it was mostly a problem of not catching errors properly, so not returning a useful result/running the continuation 22:43:50 <_3b> usual symptom being always increasing numbers for the eval counter in the modeline 22:44:24 <_3b> i think that was mostly cleaned up by the time i uploaded it though 22:45:13 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 22:45:42 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:46 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 22:48:39 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:50:30 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:51:30 ok. it looks like my slime-stack-eval-tags is not null, which makes sldb-start enter a recursive edit whenever the debugger is entered. not sure why there is a pending continuation, though 22:52:59 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:53:00 <_3b> do the tags in that var show up anywhere in the backtrace? 22:53:10 <_3b> might be able to find what triggered it from that 22:53:35 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:42 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 22:55:03 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 22:56:31 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has left #lisp 22:59:30 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:53 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 23:05:17 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:43 homie [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:08:43 nyef: can you look at raw-instance-atomic-incf-c/word in x86-64/cell.lisp? Is the side-effecting of an argument tn right? 23:10:23 You mean the use of DIFF in the XADD instruction? 23:10:27 yes 23:11:13 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-132-106-62.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:17 AFAIK, live registers are treated as linear variables, born in one VOP and dying in another. 23:11:31 So my mental model says that this is "okay". 23:11:46 good. 23:11:54 At the same time, if you're worried, you could switch the xadd and the move. 23:12:56 Umm... And DIFF and RESULT might not be getting packed into the same register. 23:13:17 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:13:24 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-31-66.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 23:13:29 (My mental model is that :TARGET is very weak, and the compiler is malicious when it comes to register packing.) 23:16:14 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.91] has joined #lisp 23:18:51 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@143.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 23:19:11 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: 'bye.] 23:21:04 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:06 pinterface [~pinterfac@174-30-96-78.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:24 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-132-106-62.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:24:30 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:22 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 23:26:32 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:35 abugosh [~Adium@c-68-50-42-230.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:43 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:30:34 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:52 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 23:31:01 -!- Lis [~Lis@p5B204054.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 23:32:40 -!- lispm [~joswig@d221112.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:39 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.133.50] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 23:36:02 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:37:23 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:37:34 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:58 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:45:04 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:22 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-25-74-198.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:46:22 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:29 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 23:47:13 _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 23:47:29 <_Pb> is ansi common lisp still a good way to learn cl? 23:49:08 _Pb, The book? 23:50:03 <_Pb> Guthur: yes 23:50:16 Was it ever a good way to learn CL? 23:50:23 It doesn't have many fans here to be honest 23:50:24 minion: Graham crackers? 23:50:24 Graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 23:50:28 <_Pb> ah 23:50:42 <_Pb> lots of pg hate up in here? 23:50:49 The common belief here is that PG doesn't actually like common lisp. 23:51:06 Based on pg's statement "I don't like Common Lisp." 23:51:07 And it's a matter of public record that he didn't like keyword arguments until -after- he wrote ANSI Common Lisp. 23:51:20 Heh. 23:51:26 Good basis, at least. 23:51:49 what does he suggest as an alternative? 23:51:51 <_Pb> i like his writing style, the couple chapters on his site were much more digestible than practical common lisp 23:51:54 zfx: Arc 23:51:57 <_Pb> to me 23:52:02 to keyword args, I mean :) 23:52:12 <_Pb> i'd use arc if it weren't implemented in mzscheme 23:52:18 <_Pb> or java 23:52:41 zfx: AFAIK, he doesn't. He just hadn't found the use-case for keyword arguments until the whole viaweb thing. 23:53:04 that seems to be a pattern with CL attacks 23:53:16 <_Pb> so, how should i learn CL, then? 23:53:24 Practical Common Lisp 23:53:33 disliking some unique feature until hitting that 1% case where it becomes very important 23:53:43 <_Pb> ah 23:53:45 although keyword args are hardly the 1% case... 23:54:02 minion: Tell _Pb about gentle 23:54:02 _Pb: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 23:54:17 _Pb that's apparently very gentle though 23:54:20 <_Pb> Guthur: thanks 23:54:21 PCL is great 23:54:27 <_Pb> i already know some lisp and scheme 23:54:40 some lisp? 23:54:43 Yeah, keywords are -hardly- a 1% use-case. I use them quite often. 23:54:46 Lisp 1.5? 23:54:55 PCL would be a step up in ungentleness, then after that maybe PAIP 23:55:03 <_Pb> heh, i already have gone through a couple chapters of PCL 23:55:08 nyef: I miss them like mad in languages that don't have something similar 23:55:11 <_Pb> and a little bit of the lisp 1.5 manual too 23:56:05 <_Pb> and mccarthy's original lisp paper 23:56:11 _Pb: Ever read PAIP? 23:56:16 <_Pb> nyef: no 23:56:33 <_Pb> minion: paip? 23:56:34 paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 23:56:38 <_Pb> ah 23:56:41 <_Pb> cool 23:56:51 _Pb, That is a great book 23:56:57 my recommendations would be: PAIP, PCL, the Sonja Keene book on CLOS, and Art of the MOP 23:56:59 Pb: ANSI Common Lisp is a good way to learn part of Common Lisp. so is Gentle, PCL, PAIP, etc. 23:57:04 very expensive but a lot of meat in ti 23:57:05 it 23:57:39 Lisp Style & Design is badly outdated, but is still a fun read in places. 23:57:44 <_Pb> what about successful lisp? that's also free 23:58:13 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.160.223] has joined #lisp 23:59:20 nyef: the norvig paper?