00:00:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:01:59 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:04:09 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:08:21 ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has joined #lisp 00:11:15 qbomb [~qbomb@pool4-118.teleclipse.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:26 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:39 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 00:11:53 -!- fundamental [~fundament@cvar.townhouse.clarkson.edu] has left #lisp 00:12:44 redline6561 [~yaaic@m245e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:03 -!- bobbysmith0071 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:15:02 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:22 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-35-69.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:44 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f967.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 00:18:40 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-26-220.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:19:13 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 00:19:53 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:20:22 what lisp interpreter/compiler for general purpose lisp experimentation do you guys use on mac os x? 00:20:36 jvia [~via@ip98-176-221-44.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:37 the choices ive found are sbcl, clozure cl, and mcl 00:20:40 CCL seems to be a pretty reasonable decision for OSX. 00:20:41 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:54 ok thats what i was afraid of 00:21:00 "afraid"? 00:21:01 Why "afraid"? 00:21:09 (the installation from it is a little intimidating) 00:21:10 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:10 I use cmucl, but ccl is probably good. 00:21:19 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:21:23 I run Linux on my mac, so I can't really help you. 00:21:32 steven_t: what's intimidating about it? You do an svn checkout and run the binaries. 00:21:49 *rtoym* Adds support for cmucl executable images on mac os x. Finally. 00:22:03 ive done that.. but the binaries arent installed into a normal place like /usr/local/bin 00:22:04 Heh. 00:22:11 rtoym: So that's finally working for you properly? 00:22:25 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DC48.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:22:26 steven_t: it's unix. There are pretty simple solutions to this "problem" 00:22:52 It's not even Apple's first Unix. 00:22:54 nyef: Pretty much works now on Linux, Solaris, and now, Darwin. And I got rid of that awful use of ld with a custom linker script. 00:22:56 i dont trust myself enough to konw which files to copy there and which not 00:23:10 rtoym: Cool. 00:23:40 steven_t: Options: 1. symlink the binaries to /usr/local/bin, 2. copy the binaries to /usr/local/bin, 3. add the binaries' path to your $PATH 00:23:49 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:24:01 nyef: IIRC, sbcl just tacks on the Lisp spaces to the executable. CMUCL links the spaces into the executable as if they were .o files. 00:24:33 ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has joined #lisp 00:24:38 *rtoym* needs to see if he can get rid of the (less) awful linker script on Solaris. 00:24:56 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:29 Yeah, that's what I remember about SBCL. 00:25:41 What'd really be nice is being able to link -fasls- as .o files. 00:27:46 Why? 00:28:12 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ip68-9-237-174.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:14 I know I'm naive, but isn't that sort of what a core does? 00:28:15 As a lead-in to a "better" executable-delivery platform. 00:28:19 or what a core is 00:29:52 I bet you'll then be getting lots of questions about why you can't link the .o from sbcl into any random C program. 00:29:57 *Sikander* has basically no idea what's going on behind the screen 00:31:41 Sikander: That's because it involves big electromagnets, and phosphor dots, and... 00:31:56 nyef: magnets, how the **** do they work? 00:32:27 As far as I can tell, on the FM principle. They're F***ing Magic. 00:32:56 Well, I'm no computer scientist, and for now I'm happy just writing working stuff in lisp. 00:33:45 And since it's only a year or so that I'm actually working with lisp, I think I won't bother with the rest just yet 00:35:35 Hmmm, phosphor dots... 00:35:53 edrx [~Eduardo@187.67.172.73] has joined #lisp 00:37:14 Admittedly, that's for a CRT screen. LCDs do something else. 00:37:56 D'oh! I was getting all excited with finally knowing some high-tech lingo... 00:39:18 So, when I open it up, it WON'T be full of car's? 00:39:40 -!- Edward [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-30-32.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:40:59 No, it'll be full of druggies... Or was that doped-up semiconductors? I forget. 00:41:28 a very basic question... how do I change the "PS2 prompt" in sbcl and gcl? in both cases they're the empty string here, and this confuses emacs's comint mode... 00:41:31 You mean, like a bunch of guys who check your ticket on the train? 00:42:07 Heh. 00:42:12 edrx: "PS2 prompt"? 00:42:14 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:42:25 I guess he means like $PS2 in bash 00:42:28 *nyef* is fairly sure that his PS2 doesn't have a prompt... 00:42:32 yep 00:42:46 Then again, I've been mostly using the N64 recently, so it -might- have one... 00:45:32 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 00:46:24 -!- borism [~boris@130.77.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [K-Lined] 00:47:20 edrx: I'm not sure you can change that. As I understand, a prompt basically waits for a full sexp. There simply is no $PS2 00:47:43 Right, in SBCL there's certainly no prompt there. 00:48:17 So when you press enter, but there's no complete sexp, read is basically still reading your input. No secondary prompt there. 00:48:17 He's probably running sbcl/gcl inside emacs in shell-mode. 00:48:32 Oh, ok, don't know about emacs. Never use the stuff myself 00:48:41 Sikander: hmmm, ok - I'll have to take a look at what the emacs-based repls for {sb,g}cl do 00:48:45 -!- chiiph [~chiiph@gentoo/developer/chiiph] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 00:48:58 chiiph [~chiiph@dumbledore.com.ar] has joined #lisp 00:49:09 -!- chiiph [~chiiph@dumbledore.com.ar] has quit [Changing host] 00:49:09 chiiph [~chiiph@gentoo/developer/chiiph] has joined #lisp 00:50:07 edrx: If you can use slime. 00:50:23 "If you can, use slime." 00:50:35 Oops. yeah. 00:50:44 Aaaaanyway, it's been fun and all, but I should get some sleep. 00:50:49 Goodnight 00:50:51 people at #emacs just recommended me inferior-lisp mode and slime - with a warning that slime is too complex (maybe like gnus) 00:50:55 Sikander: Sleep well. 00:50:59 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: time to sleep] 00:51:40 but those things wouldn't help with maxima, though... maxima has two repls, one for lisp and another one for maxima syntax 00:51:52 I'll take a look, though 00:51:55 thanks 00:52:35 Slime is not too complex. You don't have to use the hairy stuff. 00:53:15 And long ago, I once figured out how to get maxima and slime to work together. It worked, but I don't think it works together anymore. 00:53:42 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:06 rtoym: Do I remember rightly that you also experimented with McCLIM + maxima? 00:54:06 And AFAIK, maxima doesn't have two repls. Well, I suppose you could do to_lisp(); to get to the lisp repl. If that's what you mean. 00:54:17 brb, then I'll try slime & friends 00:55:06 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 00:55:16 nyef: Yeah, I did. I basically had maxima's repl go through McCLIM. It worked ok. I wanted to make it fancier like what Andy Hefner (?) did with presentations, but never got to it. 00:56:03 Ok. Got rid of the (less) hairy ld/linker script on Solaris too. 00:58:06 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:54 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:01 Hmm. I guess there's a possible security hole in how cmucl creates an executable image. If you're fast enough you could replace CORRO.o with something and that would get linked into lisp. 01:02:46 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:03:40 Given the -other- holes in CMUCL and SBCL, that hardly seems worth panicking over. 01:03:50 *nyef* glares at the GCs. 01:05:05 Yeah. On linux, the current scheme doesn't even work on common-lisp.net. A bug in GNU ld is triggered so the executable can't even be made. I'm not going to fix that. 01:10:18 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-111-85.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 01:11:39 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:11:39 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 01:11:39 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 01:12:09 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:31 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:56 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.127] has joined #lisp 01:17:57 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:18:40 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:19:08 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:33 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 01:19:37 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:20:44 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-8-52.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:21:14 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 01:21:19 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-50-237.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:23:08 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-194-156.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:23:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:24:06 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.56.176] has joined #lisp 01:29:59 -!- badipod is now known as ldunn 01:32:17 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:43 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:37:14 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:52 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:59 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:09 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-103-9.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:52:39 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-103-9.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:56:23 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.99] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:56:56 im only on chapter 3 of ANSI Common Lisp and so far im not seeing how the benefits of lisp outweigh the costs 01:57:35 steven_t: Probably because Graham doesn't actually like Common Lisp. 01:57:40 steven_t: "im only on chapter 3" pretty much sums up what the answer should be to that. 01:57:41 whaaaaa? 01:57:49 and nyef speaks truth. 01:57:50 wait, two different answers 01:57:54 whaaa!!! 01:57:59 i thought graham loved it 01:58:01 Graham isn't a terribly exciting person when it comes to Common Lisp. 01:58:05 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:08 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:58:25 But his On Lisp book was really good. I learned a lot. 01:58:42 is there a #c++ channel? 01:58:57 manic12: ##c++ 01:59:16 steven_t: ##c++ 01:59:42 manic12: why are you telling me about ##c++? 01:59:44 steven_t: Touretzky, Norvig, and Seibel are much more exciting people when it comes to Common Lisp. 01:59:46 imnsho 01:59:52 sykopomp: oh really 01:59:55 hmm 01:59:56 yes. 02:00:04 i dont see what a person has to do with it 02:00:04 because lisp costs too much for the benefit 02:00:15 manic12: you're on crack right? 02:00:25 steven_t: I think he's poking fun at your remark. 02:00:26 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 02:00:55 steven_t: that said, do you think you've learned enough about common lisp to be able to make that judgment? 02:01:04 ive just read a ton of grahams pimping why CL is so much better than other OOP, and im not seeing it yet. im hoping its just because im on chapter 3 02:01:20 that's funny, because graham hates CLOS. 02:01:44 right. i think he meant the other paradigms 02:01:47 like functional programming etc 02:01:59 he never so far mentioned CLOS in particular as a reason 02:02:04 that's funny, because CL isn't very functional. 02:02:16 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-geoihibnetrxialo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:02:21 minion: graham crackers 02:02:21 graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 02:02:34 people should go with the language(s) that are of the most benefit to them 02:02:37 but yeah, i read from matz that he designed ruby to have a simpler object system than CLOS.. and i think ruby's object system is perfect for me 02:02:41 probably worth having as a companion to ANSI Common Lisp if you want to read that. 02:02:41 so im guessing CLOS sucks 02:02:59 steven_t: I think you've got it all wrong. 02:03:01 but then again, im pretty sure lisp is powerful enough for me to design ruby's object system in it 02:03:05 Ruby's object system is a toy. 02:03:06 oh? 02:03:20 ruby's object system is plenty powerful 02:03:28 not compared to CLOS :) 02:03:28 (related: your face is a toy) 02:03:40 hmm that sounds intimidating 02:03:47 I think 'simpler than CLOS' is everything that's wrong with Ruby, really. 02:03:56 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-rzybbbsfplsnapzc] has joined #lisp 02:03:56 well, no. The syntax is hideous and ultimately useless. 02:04:01 but CLOS is pretty great. 02:04:11 i thought ruby was ok, but i can't live without slime 02:04:24 syntax of which is hideous etc, ruby's or CLOS? 02:04:26 graham is the Arc guy, is he? i really liked some of his texts 02:04:29 steven_t: Ruby's. 02:04:37 oh. yeah, disagree. sorry. 02:04:43 its not the best but its tolerable 02:04:46 steven_t: in any case, I don't know of anything that Ruby's object system can do that CLOS can't. 02:04:58 thats not the issu 02:05:02 but there are plenty of things CLOS can do that Ruby doesn't :) 02:05:07 it would appear to be that CLOS can do too much 02:05:08 ;) 02:05:21 at least in matz's opinion 02:05:39 the one thing i missed in ruby that clos has is mop 02:05:41 matz is entitled to his opinion. I'm entitled to consider him a joke. 02:05:54 haha 02:06:01 you guys are way mean 02:06:04 syamajala: multimethods, method combination, performance? 02:06:09 i dont dig that. sorry. 02:06:18 nice multiple inheritance? 02:06:27 *manic12* has become a true #lisp-er 02:07:11 i dig rubys MI 02:07:14 its simple. 02:07:17 gets the job done 02:07:23 steven_t: in one ACL chapter you write a small message-based object-oriented system 02:07:27 CLOS' defaults are simple, and they get the job done. 02:07:42 adeht: oooo i look forward to it 02:07:43 steven_t: in one On Lisp chapter you write a small generic function object-oriented system 02:07:46 chapter 3 is so damn dull 02:08:26 What's chapter 3? 02:08:33 rtoym: working with lists 02:08:37 damn dull, apparently. 02:09:14 steven_t: I guess it may seem dull to you, but it's the fundamental stuff you need to know 02:09:14 damn dull because lists are dull or because the presentation is dull? 02:11:30 so how do you guys figure that graham doesnt like CL? 02:11:45 he said he doesn't like oop 02:11:48 hes written 2 books on it so far and many essays, all of which explain why its really cool 02:13:29 I am trying to run slime (cvs slime on cvs emacs), following what should be the standard method described in http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html - but when I run (require 'slime) I get an error, because somehow slime-setup is being called with two arguments... by toggling debug-on-error I could see that something equivalent to this was executed: 02:13:37 (eval '(slime-setup :autodoc t)) 02:13:44 sounds familiar to anyone? 02:13:58 "Some may say Ruby is a bad rip-off of Lisp or Smalltalk, and I admit that. But it is nicer to ordinary people." Matz, LL2 02:14:11 try evaluating slime-setup with no args 02:14:16 steven_t: Graham said that he likes Lisp, not CL.. in his books he emphasizes a style that's not wholly CLish 02:14:32 oh 02:14:39 steven_t: he writes little about certain CL features, sometimes in a disparaging voice 02:15:57 steven_t: it's ok to start with his ANSI Common Lisp (I started with that).. but after that you should, if you want to learn CL style, read a book like Norvig's Paradigms of AI Programming or Seibel's Practical Common Lisp 02:16:12 i dont necessarily want to learn CL style 02:16:14 manic12: after evaluating the require and having it fail I can execute (slime-setup) and it seems to work, but the require thing has been aborted in the middle do to an error, and that's worrying me slightly. 02:16:15 if you program long enough eventually your programming language won't do something you like it to do, it which case some people like extensible lanaguage 02:16:22 do -> due 02:16:24 steven_t: what do you want? 02:16:26 i just want to learn whatever i can to get real smart 02:16:59 edit the .el file and fix it and report the bug :) 02:16:59 a few months ago i started learning python for the hell of it, and then after that i learned ruby. both were surprisingly quick to learn and surprisingly satisfying too 02:17:17 steven_t: I suppose you didn't care for their style either? 02:17:23 and recently i stumbled upon lisp and heard its the king of metaprogramming 02:17:32 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-27-22.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:33 yeah im not big on python. i loved it until i learned ruby. 02:17:41 now that i know ruby, python is just inconsistent and ugly to me 02:18:00 i have a feelign i wont like ruby anymore once i learn lisp 02:18:39 hm 02:18:43 I like Common Lisp. 02:18:47 and I really like CLOS. 02:18:49 :) 02:19:12 steven_t: so you're on a breadth-first search for real smarts 02:19:18 tsk tsk 02:19:27 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-35-69.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:19:47 i guess? i dont know? 02:19:47 But there is so many flavours to chose, its hard to stay long with one, hehe 02:19:54 steven_t ever played with Lua? 02:20:10 no but i looked at it and it looked like it had no benefits over python or ruby for the kind of code i write 02:20:14 then again i said that same thing about lisp 02:20:25 maybe i should learn haskel or erlang 02:20:37 im just so tired of the ridiculous limitations of ObjC 02:20:44 csharp. 02:20:45 Lua is awesome, the nicest ALGOL based lang i know 02:20:51 its *almost* powerful enough to do a whole ton of things.. but it falls 2 inches short and can do none of those things 02:21:14 what kind of code do you write? 02:21:31 mac applications for now 02:21:46 im so sick of the hoops im made to jump through because of objc's idiocy 02:22:08 steven_t: are you using Clozure CL? 02:22:14 i am now 02:22:18 It has a fantastic ObjC bridge. 02:22:29 lua has tables which are awesome shit and is heavy influenced by Scheme 02:22:33 so you can hook lisp into your existing ObjC applications. 02:22:34 ive also looked into Nu which is even closer to ObjC i hear 02:22:52 Nu looked like ObjC with random parentheses... 02:22:58 my initial reason for learning lisp was so i could understand Nu better and use it for things like metaprogramming and closures (before 10.6) 02:23:04 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 02:23:08 ah but its more powerful! 02:23:12 macros etc! 02:23:17 objc is reeeeally stupid 02:23:23 thanks to its C heritage 02:23:33 right, but all you really get is ObjC with macros. 02:23:53 all c-like languages are shit 02:24:00 which is still a ton better than objc by itself 02:24:32 steven_t: in any case, you should take a look at the ObjC bridge. You may find it useful with your experience (and the kind of apps you want to write) 02:24:46 tanks 02:24:48 http://openmcl.clozure.com/manual/chapter13.html 02:26:49 http://openmcl.clozure.com/manual/chapter14.4.html#Building-an-Application-Bundle Here's some info on making application bundles, and some notes about Cocoa programming: http://openmcl.clozure.com/manual/chapter14.3.html 02:28:06 has anybody played with cl-gpu yet? 02:28:32 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:31:19 cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 02:35:55 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:46:12 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:47:25 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:47:58 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:49:32 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:50:09 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has joined #lisp 02:51:04 -!- mhd [mhd@clozure-C6F5E19D.bos-static.gis.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:51:04 -!- mhd [~mhd@cust-206-40-162-83.bos-static.gis.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:51:07 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:10 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:57:17 -!- TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:36 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:04:27 -!- ldunn [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 03:05:22 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:42 minion: logs 03:05:42 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 03:05:46 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.170] has joined #lisp 03:06:02 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:10:03 ldunn [~user@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:20:42 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 03:21:32 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:22 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:36:20 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:39:54 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:42:21 -!- symbole [~symbole@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:51:01 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:51:27 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:54:43 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.109.107] has joined #lisp 03:54:46 -!- TheLolrus [~Xarver@cpe-75-83-191-189.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:26 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A598E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:29 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:55 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:56:11 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:17 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.109.107] has quit [Client Quit] 03:58:56 -!- phear is now known as phear_ 03:59:17 phear [~user@unaffiliated/phear] has joined #lisp 04:03:14 I have an interesting situation. 04:03:32 I have a lisp image that I load via the sbcl --core option. 04:03:34 it works fine. 04:04:07 I've just created a new image that is essentially a two liner, which is a (loop do (sb-ext:run-program ) ) on that image. 04:04:24 the point being that this wrapper runs the program, and relaunches it when the child image terminates. 04:05:23 except I get a SB-SOCKET error. 04:05:41 rather, a SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-ERROR 04:06:06 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 04:06:30 http://paste.lisp.org/display/113009 04:06:34 what on earth could this be? 04:06:47 (ps. calling run program on ls or sleep works just fine. 04:07:09 Wait why not use a shell script to begin with? 04:07:29 because this is a boiled down version of something more sophisticated. 04:07:40 I've made a two line lisp file to narrow down my problem. 04:07:45 it's as narrow as it gets. 04:09:31 does that sbcl process also use that core file? 04:10:00 no they are two separate core files. one is daemon.core, and the other one is webapp.core (or other similar names) 04:10:55 the child process is both a swank and web server, if that is of any help 04:10:55 I'd try to find out what it is that actually fails; I guess some syscall returns failure, so I'd try to find out what syscall and the errno value 04:12:25 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 04:13:32 what does it does if i (declaim (inline function-name)) right before a definition? 04:13:41 what does it do too 04:13:43 :P 04:14:29 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:15:12 could it be that forking to an sbcl image is a no no? 04:15:28 tcr: I can't actually investigate the problem because sldb just doesn't work 04:15:44 I get a low level error in the repl on the command line. it doesn't even get to swank 04:15:49 i remember that sb-socket stuff 04:17:47 Shaftoe_: something about spawning an sbcl process with run-program just seems like a terrible idea 04:17:59 it's a kind of breakage that's so low level I have no idea how to deal with it or even go about investigating it 04:18:20 derrida: why's that? 04:20:15 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@pool4-118.teleclipse.net] has left #lisp 04:20:41 Shaftoe_: maybe i don't understand but it seems like a very odd thing to need to do from within a running lisp session 04:22:04 it's simple really: I want a daemon application to do some process failover monitoring and prevention. That wrapper program needs to be programmed in something. I chose that something to be lispachu. I could use pikachu or C-kachu. But I chose lisp. I don't see how it's weird. 04:22:31 I could also make it a shell script. 04:22:36 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.56.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:22:47 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:22:59 but it would be a strange day if people here started advocating I *not* use lisp for a particular programming task 04:27:34 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 04:27:39 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:29:02 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 04:33:39 Shaftoe_: Get a backtrace from sbcl's native debugger, look and modify the source appropriately (of sb-bsd-sockets) to gain understanding 04:34:43 I -think- I remember that I successfully forked to sbcl child processes using the -same- core file in the past 04:35:21 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:30 abugosh 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[~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-8-52.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:58:48 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-8-52.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:04:15 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:04:38 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has joined #lisp 05:06:05 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-162-208-163.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:47 balooga1 [~00u4440@adsl-99-162-208-163.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:05 -!- loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:19:11 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-99-162-208-163.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:20:07 hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:25 -!- drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:21:39 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:50 Why do private variables persist over different invocations of a function in closures? 05:21:53 why aren't they tossed? 05:24:28 -!- Guest17484 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 05:25:57 because it's called "closure" 05:26:38 tcr: but is it "magic"? 05:27:08 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:28:28 It's called closures because the function closes over the respective variable bindings, basically retaining pointers to bindings' memory locations 05:31:11 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:32:53 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37:06 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:43:28 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:21 I'm playing with ECL in slime, but it doesn't like ecl-readline which I load in .eclrc, and it doesn't like being loaded in slime with -norc either 05:50:02 is there a good test to check if code is running under slime? 05:50:31 run it under slime 05:51:16 it throws a condition under slime, which can't connect to swank 05:52:03 so I'd like to not load ecl-readline if some test indicates that slime is running 05:52:09 err, swank 05:53:17 i don't see how ecl-readline can affect slime 05:53:31 if it does, it should be fixe 05:53:32 d 05:53:39 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:54:08 the condition is saying that its not getting the type of stream that it wants 05:54:18 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 05:54:31 disable ecl-readline and its happy 05:55:06 can you say what exactly does it say? 05:55:16 just rerunning 05:56:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/113011 05:57:53 i'd say it's a bug in ecl-readline 05:58:18 (because it's easier to blame someone else) 05:59:28 is there a way to detect if this instance of lisp is being invoked for the purposes of being a swank server? 06:01:34 I guess I'll just check for the existence of the swank package and see if that works 06:02:02 -!- hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-113-72.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:16 that may produce false positives 06:02:19 Nicholas [~Nicholas@ppp-71-139-190-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:36 -!- Nicholas [~Nicholas@ppp-71-139-190-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 06:02:52 spacebat: what version of ecl and ecl-readline are you using? 06:03:00 because i don't seem to be able to build it 06:03:30 Xkqqzzgk [~Nicholas@ppp-71-139-190-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:35 ecl-10.7.1 on x86_64 06:03:47 ecl-readline-0.4.1 06:05:16 -!- Xkqqzzgk [~Nicholas@ppp-71-139-190-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 06:05:45 Xkqqzzgk [~Nicholas@ppp-71-139-190-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:22 Good morning everyone! 06:11:16 beach: Howdy 06:12:20 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:13:21 phear: Hello, are you new here? 06:13:46 beach: Been here for a few days :) 06:14:12 Are you working on a Lisp project? 06:14:48 Depends on how you'd classify learning CL :) 06:15:03 Oh, that kind of project. OK, good luck to you. 06:16:06 Thank you. 06:19:36 -!- Xkqqzzgk is now known as Bhlargg 06:25:06 sellout [~greg@81.253.35.78] has joined #lisp 06:25:45 sellout- [~greg@81.253.35.78] has joined #lisp 06:25:45 -!- sellout [~greg@81.253.35.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25:49 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 06:29:26 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:30:05 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 06:39:19 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 06:43:38 -!- sellout [~greg@81.253.35.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:43:51 sellout [~greg@81.253.35.78] has joined #lisp 06:46:42 blandest [~user@109.166.138.68] has joined #lisp 06:52:32 ficthe [~tapwater@unaffiliated/ficthe] has joined #lisp 06:58:33 -!- x2Sx_ [~x2sx@59.41.94-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:00:36 hmm 07:01:54 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-195-129.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:02:12 dr_maligno [~dr_malign@41.Red-88-8-156.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:03 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:03:21 Hmm? 07:04:25 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:05:43 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:09:04 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:11 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:09:53 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 07:10:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 07:10:46 -!- jvia [~via@ip98-176-221-44.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:12:31 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:12:36 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-125-214.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:14:22 mmm 07:14:28 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:14:34 I agree 07:14:59 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 07:15:18 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15:23 (incf bacon) 07:15:49 Good idea. I should go buy some bacon. 07:16:33 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 07:16:37 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-60-206.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:16:46 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-119-51.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:16:52 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Client Quit] 07:16:53 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-8-52.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:20:09 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:51 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:18 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:21:50 phear` [~phear@unaffiliated/phear] has joined #lisp 07:25:54 -!- phear [~user@unaffiliated/phear] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26:25 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:27:10 -!- phear` is now known as phear 07:27:51 beach, in this paste (http://paste.lisp.org/+2F79) how can I use your functions to save the data (see my function save-dict-rec)? 07:28:15 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:17 rirombo [~rirombo@h100.5.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:28 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:32:21 lat: For each class that you want to save, you need to declare what information you want to store. You do that by giving it the name of the initarg you need to create the information when you read it back and a reader that can access the information. Typically those correspond to a slot, but not necessarily. 07:32:54 revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:32:56 lat: And then you just call write-model an pass it the top-level object you want to save. 07:33:39 lat: Why did you mix up the code of the io package and your own? 07:33:52 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:34:51 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:36:57 beach, should I put it in a separate file in a separate folder, and make a separate package and asd file for it? 07:37:24 lat: It already is a separate package. It is called io. 07:37:49 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:00 lat: Typically, put it early in your own .asd file, and put a defpackage early in your packages.lisp file. 07:40:24 beach, so separate file in same folder? 07:40:36 yeah, that's probably easiest. 07:43:58 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e770.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:27 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:46:13 beach, ok. Many thanks. I'll see what I can do. Lisp is very powerful, but I'm having to learn many new concepts. A lot of them are still rather fuzzy to me. But slowly things are coming into focus. The code needed to tie things together is hardest. 07:46:51 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:47:05 anair_84 [~aakarsh@vpn-8061f4bb.host.ucla.edu] has joined #lisp 07:48:29 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 07:49:35 -!- Bhlargg [~Nicholas@ppp-71-139-190-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Bhlargg] 07:50:43 -!- notrael [~notrael@purpletree.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:51:16 -!- Tabstar [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:51:36 Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 07:54:11 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@vpn-8061f4bb.host.ucla.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:54:59 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 07:55:30 -!- rirombo [~rirombo@h100.5.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:57:30 good morning 07:57:39 hello loxs 07:58:34 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:58:36 (setq a 1) issues a warning. What's wrong with it? 07:58:51 loxs: did you define the variable a? 07:59:09 I thought setq is supposed to do it (and seemingly does it) 07:59:12 loxs: setq assigns to already existing variables. Use defparameter or defvar to create it. 07:59:24 clhs setq 07:59:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm 07:59:39 and "a" isn't a very good name for a special variable 07:59:53 notrael [~notrael@purpletree.org] has joined #lisp 08:00:37 beach, yeah, reading that. Just I thought it's not so bad if I define/assign variables "on-the-fly" 08:00:47 -!- dr_maligno [~dr_malign@41.Red-88-8-156.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:00:51 stassats, I agree. But I'm just experimenting with the REPL 08:01:34 lat: I put together a small system for you that shows how to use the io package: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Example-for-lat/ 08:01:46 that's fine until you scratch your head why your experiments aren't working 08:02:03 test-file was generated by doing (save-example-model) 08:03:12 loxs: That would be confusing, because a single spelling error would go unnoticed, and you would spend a lot of time trying to debug that. 08:03:45 stassats, now that I read your comment more carefully, I see you are talking about a *special* variable. Are there "not-so-special" variables? 08:04:04 there are lexical variables 08:06:23 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:06:51 beach, many, many thanks! An example is just what I need. I've already spent a lot of time on this, and I really badly need to be able to use the program I'm working on. 08:07:19 lat: No problem. It only took me a few minutes. Let me know if you have some more quesitons. 08:07:20 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:24 *questions 08:08:59 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-23-40.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:09:48 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 08:10:14 Is there a known way to search google using cl? 08:10:36 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-66-97.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:10:37 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 08:10:57 it isn't any different from using google from any other language 08:12:16 stassats: Yeah, I imagine. What I meant is if there is a known library for doing it. 08:13:14 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 08:13:54 http://code.google.com/ 08:13:55 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:15:55 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:18:04 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:21 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:22:29 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:03 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24:25 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:25:05 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:25:09 absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:20 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-6344.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 08:26:36 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:24 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:27:45 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:28 So, apparently, there is no longer any reason to explicitly enumerate all the symbols of the CL package in order to build the clim-lisp package. 08:29:50 [not that I know that there ever was any reason] 08:32:19 timor [~timor@port-92-195-112-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:39:08 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:42:21 Let me take a step back. Is there a library to retrieve web pages? 08:42:38 minion: drakma? 08:42:39 drakma: Drakma is a fully-featured Common Lisp HTTP client library that knows how to handle HTTP/1.1 chunking, persistent connections, re-usable sockets, SSL, continuable uploads, cookies, and other things. http://www.cliki.net/drakma 08:42:43 minion: closure-html? 08:42:44 closure-html: Closure-html is a portable HTML parsing library that understands malformed HTML. http://www.cliki.net/closure-html 08:43:05 stassats: Thank you. 08:43:45 didi: http://common-lisp.net/project/closure/closure-html/examples.html#id54525 08:43:45 -!- sellout [~greg@81.253.35.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:43:53 sellout [~greg@81.253.35.78] has joined #lisp 08:44:16 stassats: Cool. 08:45:20 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:46:25 -!- revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 08:46:40 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:47:05 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:48:09 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 08:48:33 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:52:10 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 08:52:49 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:53:33 -!- blandest [~user@109.166.138.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:55:12 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:00:07 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:01:05 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:01:06 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:02:00 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:25 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:06:53 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082F2AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:10 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:09:30 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10:19 -!- daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082E123.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:10:59 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:11:06 beach, I just read your essay, "The psychology of learning." Very interesting. About two years ago, I had a major computer crash, and my backup did not work. Seeing I had to reinstall everything over from scratch, I decided to switch to Linux (from MS Windows), and learn Emacs. Eventually, I also switched to the stumpwm windows manager. The learning curve was very steep at first, but now I'm at least 4 to 5 times more productive. Slime and SBCL are now slowly beg 09:11:07 inning to pay off also, and are opening some doors that were previously closed. I appreciate the encouraging help you and others here have given me in my quest to learn lisp. Learning Lisp I think is like learning to fly a Stealth jet --- not as easy as learning to fly a Piper Cub, but you will be in control of a lot more power and speed in the end. But it also takes more dedication and determination to master it. 09:11:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-47.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:12:31 Learning lisp should be a lot more like learning how to drive a dune buggy -- simple and easy, if you can let go of some preconceptions. 09:12:58 Lisps are fundamentally simple languages. 09:15:00 Zhivago, I think you are right about the preconceptions. They have definitely been a problem for me. 09:15:42 I think that one of the easiest ways to learn lisp is to implement a toy lisp in lisp. 09:15:59 You might want to give that a go. 09:16:36 Just cons, car, cdr, eval, apply, quote, cond. 09:17:27 Oops, where did lambda go? 09:19:38 Zhivago, thanks for the suggestion. I might try that once I finish my present project, which I need to help me with some non-programming related work. 09:21:18 If you're feeling more heroic you can get rid of cons, car and cdr. :) 09:21:37 and parens 09:24:13 ost, actually, I like the parentheses. They make the core of the language seem a lot more simple. With them functions are very easy to recognize. 09:24:26 (a b c) <- is this a function? 09:24:52 yes 09:24:56 No. 09:24:59 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:11 There was a ' on the previous line. 09:25:28 Or maybe there was a macro. 09:25:31 Or maybe ... 09:26:03 What an s-expression means is context dependent in most lisps. 09:27:29 josemanuel [~josemanue@170.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:27:43 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:28:24 Zhivago, but in most contexts that would be a function, no? 09:28:28 -!- sellout [~greg@81.253.35.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:28:38 Well, probably a function invocation. 09:28:45 Unless it was a macro invocation. 09:28:54 Or literal ... 09:29:24 Actually, I think this is the part that upsets people that they then blame on parentheses. 09:30:03 lat: Glad you liked the essay. And good luck to you in your quest to learn more. 09:30:13 There's an interesting argument that you can make for C, which is that C syntax is very context independent. 09:30:32 Which means that you can look at code snippets more or less in isolation from the rest of the text. 09:31:10 beach, thanks! 09:31:58 -!- phear_ [~user@unaffiliated/phear] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:33:43 Zhivago, Each language has its strengths and special uses. 09:33:45 sellout [~greg@81.253.35.78] has joined #lisp 09:34:03 lat: True, but irrelevant. 09:35:24 It's like saying "every piece of driftwood is unique and special." 09:36:39 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:37:25 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:40:44 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-220-62.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:40:54 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:51 Zhivago, I read your posts, and am learning from you and the other regulars here. I'm not a professional programmer, and my time to study lisp in limited. So, please be patient with my slow pace in learning here. 09:43:58 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:43:58 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:44:49 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:45:43 lat: Certainly. 09:45:54 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:47:26 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:50:15 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:50:57 hi Adlai :) 09:51:47 hey fe[nl]ix, how are you? 09:52:44 pretty well :) 09:54:17 In PCL I read the following: "(eql 1 1.0) is guaranteed to be false since the integer value 1 and the floating-point value are instances of different classes". I have no problems believing in that. My question is: What is the meaning of "instances of different classes" here? I thought object-orientedness (in the sence of java and python) is not built into the language core. 09:54:37 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 09:54:47 (print (list (class-of 1) (class-of 1.0))) 09:55:09 Every object in CL has a class. 09:55:46 I suggest that you think of a class as being "an object that describes the implementation of other objects (considered its instances) 09:56:06 note that the CL definition of 'object' is far more general than in java. 09:56:07 Rather than as being a declarative prescription of how other objects will be implemented. 09:57:01 So, there would be no problem with making a class to describe objects that existed before that class was produced. 09:57:06 /joi/join #scheme 09:57:40 but is there a practice of "writing classes" as part of your program? 09:57:48 Sure. 09:58:09 It can be useful, because there are things which discriminate based on class. 09:58:14 e.g., generic-functions. 10:00:26 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:47 then I'm starting to get confused about what does OOP mean in CLOS :) 10:02:48 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 10:02:50 What do you think that OOP means? 10:03:55 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 10:04:10 lat: Want to link me to "The psychology of learning." :) ? 10:05:15 Zhivago, well encapsulation, abstraction, inheritance, object "methods", "properties" etc. 10:05:54 loxs: What does encapsulation mean? 10:07:08 Zhivago, depends. Mostly (to me) it means "different types(may not be the right term)" and different namespaces 10:08:19 loxs: Generally it means that there is a policy that things should only access implementation details indirectly, via defined interfaces. 10:08:52 loxs: Imagine that your interfaces are implemented by separate objects. 10:09:16 -!- cmsimon [~cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:09:25 loxs: e.g., there is an object called + that is responsible for implementing the addition protocol. 10:09:56 loxs: You can now teach that + object how to implement addition upon instances of your classes by giving it methods. 10:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:09 phear, http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html 10:10:11 loxs: Does this makes sense? 10:10:48 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 10:11:06 (trying to absorb it still) 10:11:24 Here are two approaches: 10:11:45 In one case you have one man who knows everything about a given tkind of object. 10:12:05 Zhivago, keep explaining. I'm studying clos now. 10:12:06 When you wat to print it, you say "hey, you -- print it out". 10:12:24 If you want to add it, you say "add this to it". 10:12:34 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:12:37 The other approach is to have one man who knows how to print everything. 10:12:54 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:05 Then you say to that guy "print out one of these for me", and you have another guy who knows how to add things together, and you can say "hey, add these two things for me". 10:13:19 C++ takes the first approach and CLOS takes the second approach. 10:13:50 hmm, now I get it 10:13:53 tcr [~tcr@76.177.48.60.brk02-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 10:14:03 The second approach is a bit nicer because that guy can understand how to add ints and wombles. 10:14:32 Whereas in the other case you'd have to teach the int guy about wombles and the womble guy about ints. 10:15:08 hmm, the lack of this has alwasy been quite annoying to me in python 10:15:30 The other nice thing is that you can redefine things independently. 10:15:31 you always have to do things like str(1) + " man" 10:16:06 If you teach the printer a new method then all of your existing data will work. 10:16:51 If you have to get in a new guy, then you'll have all of your old data doing things the old way and your new data the new way (which is one thing that annoys me about python) 10:27:54 sellout- [~greg@81.253.35.78] has joined #lisp 10:27:55 -!- sellout [~greg@81.253.35.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:27:55 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 10:30:23 lat: Thought so, thanks. 10:33:01 CLOS way is much better. Multimethods is actually one big reason I looked into learning Lisp. I hope to implement a quite complex system of interoperation in the sound synthesis engine I'm developing between different kinds of objects, and multimethods seems to suite this perfectly. 10:33:53 Better is meaningless without context. 10:33:54 I am also tired of writing explicit type casing, coercing methods and arithmetic operators for my classes in Ruby and Python. 10:39:21 Hrm, "better" than what? 10:40:01 -!- ficthe [~tapwater@unaffiliated/ficthe] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:40:51 -!- rsynnott_ [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:40:55 Presumably "better than member functions". 10:41:06 rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 10:41:28 peterhil: Maybe your previous software was just badly designed for the tools you used to implement it. 10:41:30 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:41:47 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:44:05 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 10:44:23 multimethods are great in theory 10:44:33 but they are much more expensive than single dispatch 10:44:35 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 10:44:44 so they are rarely used in practice 10:45:30 Will not a smart compiler fix this for ya though? 10:47:42 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:47:51 bozhidar: Can you support that claim? There are some very good articles on how to implement multiple dispatch efficiently. 10:49:14 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:49:14 -!- SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:50:32 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 10:52:11 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:52:50 Lymia [~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan] has joined #lisp 10:53:05 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:04 beach: I guess no proof is coming up. 10:56:23 Not yet at least. 10:56:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-164-8.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:59:17 I was on the phone... 10:59:28 the proof is coming up 10:59:30 ;-) 10:59:41 Cools. 11:00:16 I'm thinking a good compiler would just fix it and give you a nice chunk of machine code. 11:01:35 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:01:42 francogrex [~user@109.130.141.237] has joined #lisp 11:02:21 *_3b* wonders what the odds are the comparison is actually between static dispatch and dynamic dispatch 11:02:29 schmrkc: Well, obviously, using multiple dispatch if you don't need it is more expensive that using single dispatch if the solution in both cases is identical. However, presumably, if you use multiple dispatch, it is because you have a problem that in some way requires it. Then it becomes interesting to compare the cost of using an implementation with existing support for multiple dispatch, or altering your solution to the problem 11:02:29 somehow manually dispatching on remaining arguments. 11:02:41 it depends on the execution engine 11:02:44 you're using 11:03:03 I haven't used multimethods extensively in CL, but I've done some testing in Clojure 11:03:10 bozhidar: what do you mean by "execution engine" here? 11:03:10 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:18 and there multimethods had significant slowdown 11:03:34 I guess a lot of people noticed this 11:03:39 because in Clojure 1.2 11:03:49 single dispatch was added to the language 11:03:53 to alleviate such problems 11:03:58 keeping track 11:04:05 of the types of all objects 11:04:15 in a dynamic language such as lisp 11:04:19 bozhidar: So your claim is for a particular implementation of multiple dispatch, and presumably you implemented a program that in some way required it, and then you compared the execution time to the same problem where you solved the problem in some other way? 11:04:34 <_3b> bozhidar you are allowed to type more than 40 characters per line, you know 11:04:54 _3b: nasty habits die hard, sorry about that 11:05:15 for some unexplainable reason my brain wraps the lines around the middle 11:05:34 probably related to my work ;-) 11:05:41 So we now know that clojure's multimethod + dynamic dispatch is slow. 11:05:43 beach: yep 11:05:46 also to keep people interested 11:05:47 bozhidar: I mean, the initial claim is very bold, and if you have proof for this being true in the general case, then that is definitely publishable stuff. 11:06:09 well, I cannot image how the compiler might help in a dynamic language without adding some type hints 11:06:18 Well, it comes down to a trade-off between the cost of redefinition and the cost of dispatch. 11:06:45 you have to evaluate all the arguments to know their type then do a lookup in some method table 11:07:05 bozhidar: That's true for single dispatch as well. 11:07:12 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-125-214.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:07:16 Well, you don't need a table. 11:07:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:07:41 But it is a search problem. 11:07:44 Don't we evaluate all dem arguments in a function call anyway? :) 11:07:49 in single dispatch unless you factor override, the type of the first argument 11:08:08 is sufficient to figure out what method are you calling 11:08:20 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:24 bozhidar: Are saying simple dispatch requires static typing? 11:08:40 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.141.237] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:08:46 bozhidar: You now have two very important articles to write. 11:08:53 francogrex [~user@109.130.141.237] has joined #lisp 11:08:57 *schmrkc* is sure the smart CS people have figured out a nice way to make this search fast even for 3 arguments :) 11:09:43 no, I'm not saying that 11:10:10 I'm saying that if know the type of the first argument, you know the methods that can be dispatched by it 11:10:24 <_3b> bozhidar: are you sure your argument isn't that using a generalized multiple dispatch for methods that only ever dispatch on a single argument, on a VM with direct support for single arg dispatch, is slow? 11:10:37 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:10:58 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:12:10 well, I should probably look up some info on a book on the subject, because I'm no MMD expert, but I certainly remember having read in several books that MMD had performance repercussions and should be avoided if it's not absolutely necessary 11:12:17 I've read a lot of code 11:12:31 and I've never actually seen anyone use multi dispatch 11:12:36 <_3b> right, but implementing it yourself when you do need it doesn't sound like an automatic win to me 11:12:40 outside of examples 11:12:45 illustrating it 11:13:01 bozhidar: Read the CLIM spec. That's a great source of reasons for all that CLOS can do. 11:13:01 schmrkc: That might very well be true. I'm not that great of a programmer. :-) 11:13:09 bozhidar: how many object systems support multiple dispatch anyway? 11:13:26 peterhil: If multimethods suit your mind and style better. then all is well though :) :) 11:13:55 <_3b> (also, make sure you need theperfoamce in that particular code path before rejecting things for being' slow' too :) 11:13:56 Dodek: it's not found only in Lisp systems, I remember even C++ versions that had MMD support 11:14:05 the most popular ones do not, so it's not a surprise that not many people us it. 11:14:14 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:14:16 Hmm. 11:14:22 How can C++ do it slow? 11:14:32 /me shuffles feet 11:14:37 schmrkc: C++ doesn't do it slow 11:14:38 bozhidar: Consider things like the visitor pattern. 11:14:57 the question was how many object systems with MMD were there :-) 11:15:06 Or things like print-object 11:15:10 oh 11:15:30 bozhidar: so hang on. You are saying MMD is always slow, but C++ does not do it slow? 11:16:20 well, I can give a bit of information about Clojure(because currently I play a lot with it) - the entire code base + the contrib library has about 6 usages of multimethods 11:16:37 granted this is not a good statistical sample 11:16:53 That's no surprise if cloqure has very slow MMD. 11:16:53 it's an interesting insight... 11:17:01 clojure even 11:17:37 well, the JVM has a problem with dynamics, unlike CLR 11:17:42 good name for a string-and-non-empty macro? (and (stringp s) (> (length s) 0)) 11:17:52 That's all pretty much irrelevant. 11:18:03 <_3b> lhz: why macro? 11:18:46 With multi-methods you're doing a search for a sequence of classes with an associated method. 11:19:04 probably most CL VMs are implemented in a very different manner, but I'm not familiar with details of their implementations 11:19:09 From that point it all becomes speed vs. size vs. cost to redefine. 11:19:13 _3b: no reason eitherway. Looking for a single word name. 11:19:24 I use SBCL most of the time, but I've never looked under the hood 11:19:56 <_3b> lhz: 'no reason either way' is a reason in favor of function :p can't think of any good names though :/ 11:20:00 lhz: making it a macro is not really a wise thing to do 11:20:16 non-empty-string-p 11:20:28 And it should be a predicate function. 11:20:43 macros should be used only when functions won't do, and in this case function is cearly enough 11:20:46 You can inline it if you like. 11:20:50 clearly. 11:21:49 dodek: uri-neun huiheyon-yeok guncho-e manassseupnikka? 11:22:20 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C3C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:33 Zhivago: i don't see your point. 11:24:02 is contentp-stringp confusing? 11:24:16 Yes. 11:24:59 Thanks, I'll go with non-empty-string-p (as a function :) 11:25:51 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.141.237] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:29:05 kukuku [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:10 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:39 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:30:53 there's alexandria:emptyp, which works on sequences 11:31:04 lnostdal [~lnostdal@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:31:11 -!- absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:31:56 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:01 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 11:33:01 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:33:35 lisp-1 and lisp-2, is it only about having two namespaces in the latter, or is it also about the latter being "a better version" of the former? 11:33:58 the former 11:33:58 hardly better 11:34:06 everything is subjective 11:34:14 I wouldn't say that any is better 11:34:58 having to use funcall is one thing that I don't like about lisp-2 11:35:01 well, but the creators of lisp-2 may have had it as a target? 11:35:02 beach: Are you about? 11:35:09 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 11:35:10 but I like the separation between the functions and the variables 11:35:37 -!- tcr [~tcr@76.177.48.60.brk02-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:35:51 loxs: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 11:36:30 thanks 11:37:16 stassats: great link 11:38:33 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has joined #lisp 11:38:58 lnostdal [~lnostdal@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:39:06 where does = stand compared with eq, eql, equal, equalp? 11:39:34 In its own spot. 11:39:48 Probably off with EQUAL. 11:40:02 You think think of EQUAL and EQL as being the basic operators. 11:40:23 EQL being for object identity and EQUAL being for equivalence. 11:40:36 phear: yes. 11:40:37 EQUALP uses = for numbers 11:40:53 = is about equivalence, limited to numbers, so ... 11:42:13 then = means "mathemacial equivalence" (which is quire straightforward of course)? 11:42:33 Well, let's say "numeric equivalence". 11:42:38 eql requires numbers to be of the same type, = don't 11:42:41 So (= 1 1.0) is true. 11:43:11 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e23a0-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 11:43:39 yes, I see 11:44:33 What it mainly means is that if you coerced one to the type of the other, then the result should be eql with the other. 11:45:03 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:45:04 Operations like (/ 1 2) and (/ 1.0 2) might yield different results. 11:45:29 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:56 So it doesn't mean that you can just substitute one for the other with no consequences. 11:47:00 (Which is what eql would give you) 11:47:37 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has joined #lisp 11:47:40 SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has joined #lisp 11:48:04 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 11:48:17 Guthur [~michael@host86-148-29-214.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:26 absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:47 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:50:27 -!- kukuku [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:01:54 -!- redline6561 [~yaaic@m245e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org] 12:04:52 lnostdal_ [~quassel@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:45 plinko [~plinko@ppp-124-122-180-109.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:05:56 -!- lnostdal is now known as lnostdal-xchat 12:06:06 -!- lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 12:09:31 hi i need a help with weblocks datagrit 12:10:28 wich functions must i define for operate with my-collection 12:10:32 ? 12:16:22 -!- lnostdal-xchat [~lnostdal@123.80-203-140.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: lnostdal-xchat] 12:18:07 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 12:23:31 loxs[] [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:49 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:27:09 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:33 i have a weird problem 12:30:44 so weird it's indescribable? 12:30:46 -!- loxs[] [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:30:53 i'm trying to figure out how to explain it 12:31:26 i have a list of lists and i want to remove some of the sublists from the larger list holding them all, thats not the problem though 12:31:51 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e3915-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 12:32:04 the problem is what i want to remove is a list like this (:characters " " nil nil) 12:32:52 where the empty space between the quotes appears to be string= to #\Newline 12:33:27 i tried doing (remove '(:characters #\Newline nil nil) my-lst)) 12:33:31 <_3b> (remove (format nil "\n") foo :test 'string= :key 'second) ? 12:34:06 <_3b> or (remove ' (:characters " " nil nil) :test 'equal) 12:35:22 -!- sellout [~greg@81.253.35.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:35:32 <_3b> s/"\n"/"~%"/ 12:36:08 (string #\Newline)? 12:36:42 <_3b> or that 12:37:07 (remove '(characters " " nil nil)) my-lst :test 'equal)) worked 12:37:17 do you understand why? 12:38:02 well what default test does remove use? 12:38:08 carlocci [~nes@93.37.213.74] has joined #lisp 12:38:08 eql 12:38:32 i have a hard time remembering the differences between eq, eql, and equal 12:38:53 eql is the default test for all comparing things, unless otherwise specified 12:38:53 but i found a useful post on stackoverflow 12:39:13 clhs equal 12:39:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm 12:39:18 They should have called eql as same or something. 12:39:19 that's all there is to remember 12:39:56 there's a table at the end 12:41:12 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-48-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:41:20 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-48-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:43:15 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:44:40 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:44:56 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:27 loxs[] [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:09 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:18 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-125-214.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:51:21 guys 12:51:24 http://boards.4chan.org/jp/res/5830404#5830437 12:51:26 what are the chances. 12:51:45 Tanami: Of what? 12:51:53 chances that i'll go by that link are 0 12:51:55 beach: of that captcha 12:52:09 *beach* is with stassats 12:52:27 OH DEAR IT'S 4CHAN I WILL GET A VIRUS AND DIE 12:52:28 Tanami: 1 in 1. 12:52:28 x_x 12:52:41 Tanami: Just like for every other event that has happened. 12:52:54 that's one more mention of sicp in /jp/ than /prog/ 12:53:01 Zhivago: oh you. 12:53:18 Tanami: It has to do with the risk of wasting time on uninteresting links that people don't bother to explain. 12:53:44 -!- loxs[] [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:53:45 k 12:53:46 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:54:13 khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-28-106.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:58 good. 12:56:15 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-26-26.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:56:38 i was able to fix the code that made the list of lists to just avoid pushing the junk lists like (:characters " " nil nil) into the larger list 12:56:59 so i don't need remove anymore, which is probably better 13:00:46 i really need to setup w3m 13:00:48 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:54 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 13:07:08 -!- absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:08:10 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:09:15 absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:56 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:12 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:28 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 13:17:02 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:20:37 kukuku [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:42 -!- Lymia [~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan] has quit [Quit: Lymia] 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[~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:46:24 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:46:31 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:52 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest67468 14:47:15 is there some way to print the definition of a function via the REPL? 14:48:18 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.56.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:48:43 function-lambda-expression might work ... 14:49:14 _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 14:49:17 but most likely won't 14:49:44 You might want to hijack defun. 14:50:02 Doesn't slime keep track of that for you? 14:50:08 probably the better thing would be to start writing my experimental functions in files :) 14:50:22 Zhivago, does it? 14:51:33 I hope so. 14:52:16 Ah, I can search in that buffer 14:53:18 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:24 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.20.96] has joined #lisp 14:57:21 There's probably a more clever approach, but fair enough. 14:58:59 loxs: i find slime-scratch useful for experimental funcs. 15:00:34 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-43-133.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 15:00:52 Bhlargg [~Bhlargg@ppp-71-139-190-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:10 loxs: you can write them in files and use `M-.' to look up a definition 15:02:26 yeah when I write in files seems better 15:03:03 you may also find pjb's http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ interesting 15:05:38 -!- Guest67468 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:05:52 urandom__ [~user@p548A47C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:17 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:24 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:13:33 absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:31 -!- kukuku [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:19 Could someone look at my Allegro serve code and see what is wrong ? http://paste.lisp.org/+2F7B 15:17:19 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 15:17:25 *_3b* guesses the 'anything else - everything else is simply evaluated in the normal lisp way and the value thrown away.' bit from the htmlgen docs might apply 15:18:26 fe[nl]ix: Did you manage to have a look at the problems I was having with the cffi groveller syntax? 15:18:27 <_3b> maybe (:p (:princ n))? 15:18:28 Drakma is wonderful! I am just testing how many servers support byte range serving 15:19:16 princ or format don't work either 15:19:46 I saw code like this in Practical Common 15:19:55 Lisp book 15:19:58 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 15:20:11 <_3b> was it using the same html generation lib? did you miss the : ? 15:20:11 maybe something has changed 15:20:21 <_3b> did you print to the correct stream? 15:20:46 (princ n) 15:20:51 <_3b> http://opensource.franz.com/aserve/htmlgen.html 15:20:57 doesn't work 15:20:57 <_3b> right, i said (:princ n) 15:21:36 <_3b> princ prints to *standard-output* unless you tell it otherwise, htmlgen doesn't bind *standard-output* to anything useful as far as i can see 15:21:39 you say I put : before a princ 15:22:26 I don't see because of smiles 15:22:55 <_3b> you could probably turn that off in channels dealing with code :p 15:23:00 <_3b> *should 15:23:03 hehe similies in a lisp channel is going to problematic 15:23:12 to/to be 15:23:57 * 15:24:21 ok I'll try (:princ n) 15:24:45 <_3b> does CCL have any hooks that get run before saving an image (or after loading one)? 15:26:44 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 15:26:49 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:27:16 kukuku [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:09 -!- SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:28:39 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29:07 -!- absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:29:43 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 15:30:32 How do I overcome this: ASDF could not load system because failed to find the TRUENAME of /tmp/packages.lisp: No such file or directory. 15:31:04 <_3b> did you C-c C-c a defsystem in a .asd file? 15:31:09 (:p (:princ n)) works. Thanks. How do I turn smilies in this channel off ? 15:31:37 prl: There are no smilies in the channel -- read the documentation for your client. 15:31:37 <_3b> prljavi_hari: up to your irc client 15:31:40 prljavi_hari: that depends entirely on your irc client... 15:31:52 _3b, yes. 15:32:03 prljavi_hari: but you're probably using pidgin, no? :) 15:32:11 I have pidgin 15:32:14 <_3b> lat: don't do that... C-c C-k in that file will probably fix it 15:32:36 prljavi_hari: I think you'll just have to disable pidgin smileys in general (not a bad idea, tbh) 15:32:38 prljavi_hari: you can go to preferences and choose the no smileys theme, I don't think you can do it per-channel 15:32:59 ok 15:33:12 <_3b> lat: it figures out where the files to load are based on what directory the defsystem was compiled in, and C-c C-c stores the specific form in a file in /tmp, so that confuses asd 15:33:49 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:33:56 netytan [~netytan@85.211.52.141] has joined #lisp 15:35:30 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-43-133.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 15:35:42 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 15:39:39 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-115-113.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:49 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:42:08 absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:16 -!- Minishark [cegner@devio.us] has left #lisp 15:43:33 -!- kukuku [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:44:03 _3b, thanks! I would probably never have figured that out by myself. That worked. 15:45:15 aeouidhtns [~daniel@187.10.43.201] has joined #lisp 15:45:46 *_3b* wonders if it would be more annoying than helpful if asdf complained about defsystems directly in /tmp/ 15:51:16 _3b, perhaps the debugger should just give the same advice you gave. 15:51:16 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:18 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 15:51:56 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:52:04 <_3b> lat: yeah, question is when it should give it 15:52:17 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-20-82-64-55-127.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:28 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 15:52:34 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:53 <_3b> i guess it probably would be reasonable to check when finding a component fails 15:53:17 <_3b> that wouldn't give as many false positives in case someone was actually working in /tmp 15:54:01 hi _3b, I got 3bil working on this machine, thanks! 15:54:10 <_3b> manic12: cool 15:56:07 frito [~keithmant@86.7.68.14] has joined #lisp 15:58:16 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:58:23 Folks, I'm having a little hard time in understanding this function from PCL: http://paste.lisp.org/display/113019 15:58:34 especially the last two lines (the connection between them) 15:59:41 It appears to be missing parts. 16:00:00 Also you appear to be missing a question. 16:00:07 <_3b> there is no connection between them, aside from being in the same DO clause 16:00:36 <_3b> (loop repeat ... (format t "*")) prints a row of *, then (format t "~%") prints a newline 16:01:00 <_3b> (well, i guess being separate steps of printing a line of text is sort of a connection) 16:01:12 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:01:14 I *WIN*! CLIM3 stream panes are working: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/clim3.png 16:01:57 JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:42 I was missing the that "~%" prints new lines 16:02:52 sorry for the silly question. Now I get it 16:03:29 <_3b> note that ~% is a format command, not a general way to get newlines in strings like \n in C-like languages 16:03:37 I thought that the last line somehow formats the otput of the previous line 16:05:54 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:06:52 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:09 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:07:34 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:09:42 beach, I wondered why you were coding today. Now we know. When will clim3 be released? 16:10:11 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:10:44 -!- ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:06 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 16:11:08 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:11:24 beach, that is McClim3, right? 16:11:25 lat: Any day now! Nah, just kidding. I am not smart enough to write a specification without testing it by implementing it at the same time, so that's what I am doing, and this will take time. I am hoping at some point I can import large parts of McCLIM, such as command tables and other stuff that is independent of the graphics layer. 16:11:52 lat: No, I am re-implementing a new implementation of a new specification, so it won't be called McCLIM. 16:12:26 what's the main difference? 16:12:53 threading/events maybe? 16:12:54 beachclim, or plageclim 16:13:03 manic12: I did what the CLIM2 people suggested, namely unified sheets, output records, and designs. 16:13:33 any 3d in there? 16:13:36 manic12: This simplifies the entire architecture *alot*. 16:13:49 manic12: Not at the moment. 16:14:10 i'll certainly have to look at it 16:15:05 I'll show it to the public as soon as I have a bit more to show for. 16:15:10 would it run in case-sensitive-lower mode? 16:15:26 JuanDaugherty [~juan@mobile-166-137-139-137.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:26 Of course. All my code does! :) 16:15:34 nice 16:15:54 Not that I have tested it, though! :) 16:16:12 beach, very interesting. When you document it, please give lots of screen shots and examples. 16:16:30 lat: That is some time away. 16:16:44 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:16:53 is antifuchs involved by any chance? 16:17:11 no, but I would love for him to be if like. 16:17:33 beach, I think ahead. 16:18:18 manic12: I think the main difference from CLIM2 is that I'll be able to explain the semantics a lot better, so that it is clear when different things happen. 16:19:35 manic12: That, and my making "sheets" have relative coordinates, means that we don't have to get the quadratic behavior on output records that we are forced to have in McCLIM. 16:19:44 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 619 seconds] 16:20:14 beach: wow, unifying those soudns like it could ease learning for people a lot 16:20:34 let me, pre-emptively, congratulate you on a job well done! 16:20:37 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 16:20:46 OliverUv: Tanks, but that is definitely premature. 16:21:28 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 16:24:55 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:25:12 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 16:25:23 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest3661 16:25:33 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:25:46 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:17 *beach* vanishes to spend time with his (admittedly small) family. 16:26:19 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:26:22 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-119-51.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:27:30 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:28:12 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 16:28:17 Tell you family hi for me, beach. 16:28:29 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:28:50 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.20.96] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:29:37 *manic12* wonders if _3b left too 16:29:49 <_3b> should i have? 16:30:18 no, silly, I want to 3bs with you 16:30:53 I know nothing yet about flash 16:31:13 where should i start? (wikipedia?) 16:31:18 -!- Guest3661 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 16:31:23 jvia [~via@ip98-176-221-44.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:29 <_3b> depends on what you want to learn about it i guess 16:32:16 i know that the 3bil compiler is currently a bit slow, but is there any possibility of on-the-fly streaming of swf? 16:33:28 -!- _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:33:28 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-60-206.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:33:31 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-33-19.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:34:27 <_3b> manic12: 'possible', yes... 'practical' might take some work though :) 16:35:25 3bil takes a subset of CL and compiles it to swf, correct? if so, is that subset CL still, or CL-like? 16:35:53 <_3b> th eintent is to make it as close to CL as is possible/convenient 16:36:27 <_3b> so for example, the numeric stack will probably act like the VM rather than CL for quite a while 16:36:38 yeah 16:37:05 <_3b> i suppose a better description is that the intent is to maximize the overlap between 3bil and cl 16:37:10 what about the graphics/animation is that like an api? 16:38:11 Why be like CL? 16:38:37 Or rather, what problem do you think that being like CL would solve? 16:38:39 <_3b> there are 2 ways to do gfx/animation stuff: you can use the vector/raster gfx stuff in the .swf format, or draw from code 16:38:59 <_3b> drawing from code would involve calls to the flash player built in libs, documented on adobe's site 16:39:43 i think I'll start with the former 16:39:52 <_3b> Zhivago: mostly due to not having anything in particular i wanted to 'fix' about CL at the moment, and not really knowing what i'm doing well enough to build compiler/tools/etc and design a language at the same time 16:40:05 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 16:40:06 I think that parenscript might be a reasonable model. 16:40:07 <_3b> Zhivago: main objective is just to not write in as3 16:40:48 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-33-19.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:40:49 that's a good answer (of course I didn't ask the question) 16:41:17 Well, when I look at parenscript it makes code generation easy. 16:41:18 <_3b> manic12: in that case, you want to look at the 3b-swf stuff, which is what handles everything about .swf aside from actually compiling the bytecode 16:41:18 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-33-19.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:41:36 lisp is mind boggling :D 16:41:37 Beyond that, any similarity with CL just reduces the amount of new idioms to learn. 16:41:44 Zhivago: doesn't parenscript produce source code? 16:42:17 maniac: Sure, but I'm talking about code generation for what you pass to parescript to turn into js. 16:42:19 <_3b> manic12: you could say parenscript just compiles to a very verbose bytecode :p 16:43:38 _3b could have generated actionscript or whatever, but who's going to compile it, the client?? 16:44:14 hargettp_ [~hargettp@mobile-166-137-137-146.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:52 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-33-19.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:45:06 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:45:09 <_3b> manic12: note that 3b-swf doesn't have a particularly nice API, it is mostly just the low-level code for reading/writing the binary data, and a few wrappers 16:45:57 *_3b* should probably go back and look at the parenscript compiler again at some point 16:46:30 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-205.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:46:34 kukuku [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:35 last time I looked at parenscript was a looong time ago 16:46:55 *_3b* finds parenscript + slime to be a nice way to work on web stuff :) 16:47:13 it was basically macros for turning parenthised code into js 16:48:00 what are the capabilities now? 16:48:57 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:15 -!- absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:49:24 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:40 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-205.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:50:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-164-8.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:46 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-205.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:51:13 package fu 16:51:50 flash-utils 16:52:01 <_3b> parenscript is trying to evlove more towards being a real compiler as opposed to just a sexp format for js 16:52:10 nice 16:52:24 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-43-133.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 16:52:34 <_3b> well, nice once they get there maybe, bit annoying wile it is still somewhere in the middle :) 16:52:39 seejay [~seejay@plexyplanet.org] has joined #lisp 16:52:41 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:54 have it's capabilities for emitting js to a browser improved? 16:53:06 -!- seejay [~seejay@plexyplanet.org] has quit [Changing host] 16:53:06 seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 16:53:18 <_3b> not sure what you mean 16:53:58 i had used it inside htmlgen to emit js 16:54:31 now i would use net.xml.generator, but that's not my point, parenscript is 16:54:46 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:55:18 *_3b* assumes you could still call it that way, or just compile whole files to .js files and serve those directly 16:55:39 *_3b* hooks it up to slime, and sends individual forms to browser for testing/interactive dev purposes 16:57:13 -!- djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:58:30 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:00:03 I can't get images in my table. I dynamically set image paths but they are all absolute paths (in page source). http://paste.lisp.org/+2F7I 17:00:18 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp@mobile-166-137-137-146.mycingular.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:50 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 17:00:53 absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:03 <_3b> clhs enough-namestring 17:01:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_namest.htm 17:01:12 <_3b> prljavi_hari: possibly ^ would help? 17:01:34 i doubt (directory "/pics/") produces what you want 17:02:06 he's probably getting back a pathname istead of a string like 3b points out 17:02:06 <_3b> might also need to convert to strings or print them differently 17:02:40 -!- kukuku [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:02:41 *_3b* was actually suggesting a way to convert them to relative paths 17:02:50 ah yes 17:02:52 that too 17:03:14 if you don't mind me butting in, does anyone know of a good utility vectors+matrices library for cl? I'm tired of having to roll them myself for the nth time... 17:03:20 and i meant the lack of wild pathnames 17:03:20 you don't need to publish-directory in the response either 17:03:38 <_3b> plinko: general vectors+matrices, or 3d? 17:03:53 general. 17:04:04 *_3b* uses sb-cga for 3d stuff, don't know baout general 17:04:13 what is that how do I then get the images ? 17:04:15 ah, damn. thanks anyway 17:04:16 you can publish the directory ahead of time and just do a directory in the http-response 17:04:39 ok 17:04:50 does that make sense? 17:05:06 plinko: Look on cliki for several packages that interface to Lapack, if that's what you're interested in. 17:06:25 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-111-85.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:06:49 prljavi_hari: convert your pathnames to string urls to get the images to show up 17:06:52 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@mobile-166-137-139-137.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:54 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-25-66.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:08:06 rtoymn: I'm just doing basic work with vectors and co., really - the stuff you'd find in utility libraries 17:08:17 gah, *rtoym. 17:09:37 like dot products and such? 17:09:42 <_3b> gonzojive: anything happening with your clws/slime-proxy forks at the moment? if not, i'll probably merge them in the next day or so 17:09:49 -!- Bhlargg [~Bhlargg@ppp-71-139-190-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 17:09:59 manic12: yeah, that's it. 17:10:23 roll your own up until you need something like lapack 17:11:05 alright then. 17:11:10 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-6344.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:11:14 what lisp are you using, sbcl? 17:11:19 ccl. 17:11:42 does ccl allow you to pass lisp arrays to foreign functions? 17:11:46 _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #lisp 17:11:57 _3b: i'm not working on it much now. emacs trips up a bit sometimes when I'm in slime proxy mode, so there are a few bugs lurking. Let me make sure i've pushed everything to github 17:12:03 plinko: Somewhere on the cmu ai archives there used to be some package called cl-math. I think it has some simple code for vectors and matrices. 17:12:39 At least I think it was called cl-math. 17:13:10 plinko: that's one of those subjects where everyone has different requirements and so the libraries are all different and nothing standard, i suppose 17:13:14 _3b: everything on github is up to date 17:13:34 <_3b> gonzojive: ok, cool 17:14:04 Ok. cmucl executable images are working everywhere except for freebsd. Now I just need someone to work on the freebsd part.... 17:14:24 for free or for bsd? 17:14:36 (For some (small) value of "everywhere") 17:15:20 I'm certainly not going to pay anyone! 17:15:47 *manic12* is just being stupid silly 17:16:24 ak70 [~ak70@80.77.204.157] has joined #lisp 17:16:30 djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has joined #lisp 17:16:43 a bit late, but rtoym: holy bajeezus it's from 1985 but it ("clmath") does matrices, no vectors, and manic12: yes. 17:16:46 -!- ak70 [~ak70@80.77.204.157] has left #lisp 17:17:21 but thanks. 17:18:03 JuanDaugherty [~juan@mobile-166-137-138-067.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:24 A vector is a matrix. :-) 17:18:33 manic12: Yeah, I guess that. :-) 17:19:25 we were supposed to get into linear algebra but school was forced to close a few weeks early thanks to redshirt protestors holding Bangkok, so I'm a bit of an imbecile in this regard really 17:19:46 I published a directory c:/pics as /pics in repl and all image sources are in this format #P"c:\\pics\\image01.jpg" I still see only some default image. 17:19:48 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:20:01 if you decide, for instance, that you want to use lapack, then you will want your vector lib to be compatible directly with the ffi you uses 17:20:41 maybe you have to do (:princ url) 17:20:56 <_3b> prljavi_hari: (enough-namestring (pop slike) "/tmp/") maybe? 17:21:07 so it won't do the " 17:21:24 <_3b> "/pics/" i mean 17:21:46 no 17:22:08 paths are right but absolute 17:22:22 <_3b> what should it look like? 17:22:37 i'm on windows, no /tmp 17:22:51 I don't no 17:22:54 <_3b> yeah, that should have been "/pics/" not "/tmp/" 17:23:27 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:23:55 <_3b> i guess you will also need to add the "/pics/" back in though 17:24:02 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 17:24:12 he's missing something basic 17:24:20 for local html image paths must be relative 17:24:26 *manic12* is getting out htmlgen 17:24:47 <_3b> prljavi_hari: relative to what though? 17:24:49 Btw, I have been looking for something similar to NumPy for Common Lisp. Any suggestions? 17:24:53 besides printing out filesys paths instead of urls 17:25:00 to html page 17:25:07 *rtoym* needs to go out and buy some bike gloves.... 17:25:12 in which they are 17:26:07 I will ask this no lisp newsgroup. Too complicated 17:26:09 <_3b> prljavi_hari: where is the html page though? you are serving the images from /pics, so if the .html isn't in that dir, you need an absoulte path 17:26:31 <_3b> (relative to the server part of the URL though) 17:26:56 we have only told him 4 times that he's printing filesystem filenames instead of urls!! 17:26:57 there is no html page, just the function creating it 17:26:58 <_3b> currently you are putting in a LISP pathname though, which is why you get the #P and " stuff 17:27:30 <_3b> prljavi_hari: i mean from the browser's point of view 17:27:43 <_3b> prljavi_hari: it loads an html page, from a particular URL 17:27:44 prljavi_hari: convert the pathname to a url first! 17:28:25 how do I do that 17:28:43 excuse me 17:29:59 Or will Lisp's arrays do? Are they fast? Can I do math with whole arrays? Do they have similar iteration/broadcast possibilities or do I have to make my own? 17:30:23 I don't understand correctly publish function. To where do tey publish 17:30:30 peterhil: no, it is very slow to insert an element in a lisp array. 17:30:46 http://paste.lisp.org/display/113024 17:31:20 peterhil: (actually, it is as slow to insert an element in a lisp array than in a C array). 17:31:35 to curren lisp image or url path 17:31:46 prljavi_hari look at my paste 17:31:53 ok 17:32:04 put it in your REPL 17:33:19 minion: tell peterhil about gsll 17:33:19 peterhil: look at gsll: the Gnu Scientific Library for Lisp http://common-lisp.net/project/gsll 17:33:51 pjb: Ok, so Lisp arrays are comparable to NumPy in speed? What about iteration and vector (multiply (arr a) (arr b)) math operations? 17:33:59 Ok, thanks. I will check that out. 17:34:06 prljavi_haru: does that make sense to you? 17:34:47 peterhil: I don't know NumPy. What multiply would that be? dot product or matrix product? 17:35:35 I put in repl. And what now ? 17:35:45 did it print anything? 17:36:02 no, it returned nil 17:36:21 peterhil: I've been using gsll for a while now. Have never compared it in speed to numpy, though 17:36:37 it didn't print anything before it returned nil? 17:36:47 no 17:36:58 Just dot product. NumPy has wonderful iterators: http://books.google.com/books?id=gJrmszNHQV4C&lpg=PA314&ots=rKWVwCWbng&dq=numpy%20iterators%20beautiful&hl=fi&pg=PA303#v=onepage&q=numpy%20iterators%20beautiful&f=false 17:37:09 peterhil: dot product would be O(n). These questions are silly. 17:37:09 -!- frito [~keithmant@86.7.68.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:37:36 peterhil: I think that gsll can work with iterate 17:37:43 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:37:45 what lisp are you using? 17:37:52 I'm prettynew to lisp. I'll look later at this piece of code 17:38:05 allegro 17:38:12 express 17:38:19 but with emacs 17:38:26 which repl? 17:38:44 in emacs 17:39:07 pjb: Sorry. It's just I do not know enough about Lisp yet, so I may ask silly questions. 17:39:10 it didn't print 17:39:14 ? 17:39:22 no 17:39:50 *slime repl allegro* 17:40:16 peterhil: Lisp is a general, algorithmic, programming language, You can implement anything with it. The basic data types include the same basic data types you find in any other algorithmic programming language. 17:40:37 go to the console and paste it 17:41:47 peterhil: I used to use numpy, now I use gsll. I didn't pay much attention to execution speed, but the flexibility and conciseness with gsll and CL beat numpy imo 17:42:06 pjb: And I also come from interpreted languagues like Ruby and Python, where you have to think about the implementation too in addition to the algorithm wtr speed. For example Python's builtin vectors and matrices are very slow compared to NumPy, even though they are written also with C. 17:42:20 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-67-96.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:38 Sikander, thank you. Just what I wanted to know. :-) 17:42:44 peter: Please remove the nonsense term "interpreted language" from your vocabulary. 17:42:46 now it did print 17:42:52 peterhil: well, since there's a definition of the CL language (a standard specification), we can indeed have various implementations, including compilers. 17:43:11 peterhil: don't write your algorithms in python. numpy provides C algorithms. Either stick to numpy or switch to CL with gsll 17:43:16 ok 17:43:30 (with C algorithms I mean algorithms written in C and compiled) 17:43:47 whatever comes after the :src keyword is getting evaluated 17:43:54 I think that numpy uses blas/atlas, and I think gsll does too 17:44:13 but you are printing the pathname and *not* the url 17:44:20 (gsl too) 17:44:31 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-205.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:44 you're browser doesn't know how to find pathnames, just urls 17:44:55 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-205.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:45:00 you must convert the pathname to a url 17:45:01 Zhivago: I will consider that... 17:45:16 it's allegro express ide, why it didn't print it in emacs repl? 17:45:42 peter: Good, because it reflects a basic error in thinking. 17:45:44 which is connected to it 17:45:46 the url and pathname get associated with each other by the publish or publish-directory call 17:46:13 you will have to ask someone who uses SLIME 17:46:53 I managed once to see picture by publish-file 17:47:25 Sikander: I have just used NumPy, and not the builtins or made my own vector algorithms. I guess now I have to learn gsll... 17:48:11 study that bit of code, and know that pathnames and urls are not the same 17:48:30 And what is the url ? /pics or localhost/pics/ 17:48:36 i will 17:49:08 you make the url with the publish-directory function 17:49:50 and theat goes to server direrctory * 17:50:04 likelocalhost/pics/ ? 17:50:20 ok 17:50:36 I'll study that piese of code 17:50:43 it's either got to be http://localhost/pics/ or just /pics/ 17:51:03 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 17:51:26 Zhivago: Could you elaborate what this basic error in thinking is? 17:51:31 ok 17:53:04 peter: Is C an interpreted language? 17:53:13 I guess, you mean that in the interpreters are compiled anyway, and libraries have compiled code, so the distinction is often a blurry one. 17:53:21 No. That's not what I mean. 17:53:28 Ohh, I came at the right time. This is my favorite topic. 17:53:32 Samy [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:34 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 17:54:45 I would say no, C is not interpreted language. But ok, the compiler interprets the code as instructions to make an executable program. So in a sense C is also always interpreted. 17:54:57 peter: Then how can there be C interpreters? 17:55:05 peterhil: you're wrong. C is an interpreted language. I know at least three C interpreters. 17:55:09 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:16 Ok 17:55:20 compilers are interpreters too ;) 17:55:38 peter: Compilation and interpretation are implementation details. 17:55:45 peter: Not language issues. 17:55:48 Yes. I thought that would be the point. 17:55:54 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:56:11 Zhivago: Ah, now I see your point. 17:57:41 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-43-133.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 17:57:46 pjb: I did not know there are C interpreters. Those could come in handy learning C. 17:57:51 Indeed. 17:58:02 Interpreter doesn't imply interactivity. :) 17:58:20 Oh well... :-) 17:58:25 /msg peterhil CINT - http://root.cern.ch/root/Cint.html EiC - http://eic.sourceforge.net/ Ch - http://www.softintegration.com [ MPC (Multi-Platform C -> Java compiler) - http://www.axiomsol.com ] 17:58:25 17:58:33 Likewise compiler doesn't imply a lack of interactivity. 17:58:37 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:59:22 ECL compiles modules via gcc interactively and links them. 18:00:08 Anyhow the reason that I mention that is that "interpreted language" is an error that carries through into many other errors. 18:00:20 peterhil: notice also that with emacs, It's easy to write a compile-and-run command that will compile and run your current buffer, so to learn you also get quasi-interactive development. 18:00:24 It's best to fix that as soon as possible. 18:02:10 Zhivago: Ok, thank you. I stand corrected. 18:02:44 *sykopomp* loves gray streams! 18:03:08 So lisppaste isn't on #lisp anymore? 18:03:15 emacs compile-and-run --> http://paste.lisp.org/display/113025 18:03:45 -!- _Pb [~pb@75.131.194.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:05:52 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:29 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:40 who of you tried to compile ecl on cygwin? 18:08:56 the one should install the actual version of gmp, or ecl will not compile 18:09:38 even when you disable gmp in config? 18:10:03 hm 18:10:12 good question, the developer of ecl wrote this to me 18:11:04 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 18:13:15 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.20.96] has joined #lisp 18:13:51 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:52 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:16:33 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:16:56 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-67-96.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:17:04 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 18:19:39 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:21:10 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 18:23:18 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has joined #lisp 18:24:54 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:02 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:36:07 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-67-96.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:31 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-205.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:36:59 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:24 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-43-133.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 18:44:15 -!- oconnor [~oconnore@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:44:47 milanj [~milanj_@212.200.192.48] has joined #lisp 18:45:13 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-205.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:45:45 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:05 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:47:13 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-6344.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 18:48:09 -!- Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:49:29 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-205.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:49:32 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-205.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:49:45 I published a directory /pics/ with net.aserve:publish-directory. How do I get files in that directory ? If I use (directory "/pics/") it gets me local filenames like "c:/pics/image01.jpg", I just want the image01.jpg or /pics/image01.jpg.. How do I traverse a published directory ? 18:50:40 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50:40 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@mobile-166-137-138-067.mycingular.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:51 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:35 -!- plinko [~plinko@ppp-124-122-180-109.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:53:10 -!- absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:53:11 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@66.183.224.178] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:20 Or how do I get files in published directory in a list ? 18:53:40 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-205.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:58 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-205.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:54:13 can someone give me the link to the official cffi maling list? 18:54:28 I wrote something to the one I found but got no answer 18:54:40 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:55:01 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 18:57:56 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@219.80-202-200.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:02 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-43-133.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 19:01:14 JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:23 moah [~gnu@178.1.125.247] has joined #lisp 19:02:30 pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:52 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:03:58 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:06:00 ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has joined #lisp 19:06:09 -!- ehu [~ehuels@194.48.133.8] has left #lisp 19:06:13 -!- notrael [~notrael@purpletree.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:08:55 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 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[~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:38 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:07:06 Good evening everyone! 20:07:21 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:53 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:54 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-23-40.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:15 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-225-199-143.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:26 hello beach 20:09:57 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-51-181.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:11:13 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:49 -!- mtk [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:12:20 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:00 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@141.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:13:43 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 20:17:57 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 20:18:53 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:19:21 <_3b> what is the correct way to load or not load files/dependencies in asdf2 depening on *features*? 20:19:40 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:19:49 timor [~timor@port-92-195-112-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:23 -!- Edward [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-60-253.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 20:22:58 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:22:58 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:23:02 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 20:23:25 For those who missed it: CLIM3 stream panes are working: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/clim3.png 20:23:49 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 20:29:00 CLIM3 ? 20:29:47 I am trying to design (and code an implementation of) the successor of CLIM 2. 20:33:06 billitch: Do you know about CLIM? 20:33:35 minion: please tell billitch about CLIM. 20:33:36 billitch: please look at CLIM: The Common Lisp Interface Manager (CLIM) is a powerful Lisp-based programming interface that provides a layered set of portable facilities for constructing user interfaces. http://www.cliki.net/CLIM 20:34:36 -!- ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:45 sounds like a big project 20:35:12 billitch: Very likely too big. But then creating McCLIM seemed that way too, and now it exists. 20:35:55 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:10 ok will it beat emacs ? 20:38:17 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:38:43 billitch: Those two are hardly in the same category. Climacs exists and already beats Emacs in a couple of ways, but that's just one CLIM application. 20:39:10 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl13-220-62.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:40:15 beach: in whats ways does climacs beats emacs 20:40:16 ? 20:40:49 climacs' development seems stopped for more than 2 years 20:40:54 <_3b> galdor: it has a better scripting language if nothing else :p 20:41:20 good point :) 20:41:24 galdor: 1. It is written entirely in Common Lisp, so more hackable. 2. It has a much more sophisticated parser framework built in, so it has a much better idea of what's in the buffer. The direct result is better indentation for Common Lisp code. 20:41:35 <_3b> (also the stuff about using real parsers for syntax highlighting and such sounds nice) 20:42:14 I'll have to try climacs one day 20:42:18 galdor: I am perfectly aware that development stopped. 20:43:15 -!- benny [~user@i577A1879.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:43:38 galdor: The problem is that I have too many project to work on, and I need to count on others to help me out. Athas did a great job with Climacs, but then sort of just vanished (well, he is here on #lisp still, but no longer working on Climacs), and I haven't found anyone to replace him yet. 20:43:44 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:43:59 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:04 I didn't mean to criticize, sorry 20:46:14 I didn't know you were a climacs developer 20:46:20 galdor: No, it's OK, I am just explaining. 20:49:53 galdor: The other problem I have is that I have a full-time job doing other things, and that has taken up more than a full-time load for the past 4 years, not to mention any inspiration of doing anything interesting. But that is over now, so things might change (and already have). 20:50:22 -!- aeouidhtns [~daniel@187.10.43.201] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 20:51:14 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 20:55:28 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:05 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@170.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 20:56:24 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:35 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:45 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:01 galdor: So please let me know if you are looking for some interesting Lisp project to work on. 20:57:05 Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:06 Clim3 is an interesting project, keep on the good work :) 20:57:14 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:23 what is Clim3? 20:57:25 galdor: So are the dozens of others! 20:57:51 well I'm working on my personal project as much as I can (which means not a lot, full time job too) 20:57:53 ost: I am trying to design (and code an implementation of) the successor of CLIM 2. 20:58:41 beach: how is it different from CLIM2? 20:58:52 minion: tell ost about logs 20:58:53 ost: have a look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 20:59:11 which one should I read? =) 20:59:29 I use the one from tunes, except when it's down. 20:59:50 ost: CLIM3 is a simplified architecture with more well-defined semantics. 21:00:37 what do you use as a backend? 21:02:28 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02:58 anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:11 <_3b> fe[nl]ix: is iolib expected to work on allegro? 21:05:12 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:05:35 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:11 _3b: no 21:06:32 -!- anair_84 [~aakarsh@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:06:44 <_3b> ok, i'll switch to something else then 21:06:50 lichtblau has a few patches for cffi and iolib, though 21:06:59 maybe they'll work for you 21:07:01 sigh 21:07:22 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 so far, im halfway through chapter 4 of ACL and CL's datatype functions are as ridiculous as C's 21:07:32 i hope things get better from here 21:07:39 ost: Right now, I am trying to use a backend that is both simple and of higher quality than we have used so far. What I came up with a while ago is to use CLX with a client-side X11 image and do all the drawing from CLIM. It gives a more consistent behavior, and it is fast enough, even though I haven't implemented *any* of the optimizations that were planned for. 21:07:46 *_3b* is mainly just seeing how hard some of my libs would be to port, not really worth it if people would need an entire dependency chain of forks :) 21:08:04 steven_t: What's a datatype function? 21:08:17 steven_t: You should give up on Lisp right now, and go try Python instead. 21:08:24 *steven_t* sighs 21:08:34 python is just as bad 21:08:49 i get im just not used to the fact that its not OOP 21:09:03 im so used to OOP meaning cleanliness that its hard to see code as being clean when it isnt OOP 21:09:05 steven_t: Because I can already tell that you are going to be a pain in the neck to many people here with that attitude of yours, and I would rather you would be a pain in the neck to others. 21:09:08 *_3b* votes smalltalk in that case 21:09:15 like python's type() compared to ruby's .class or Class.new 21:09:35 yeah smalltalk is probably where ruby gets that from,isnt it? 21:09:46 *rtoym* doesn't think ACL covers any CLOS until much, much later, if at all. 21:09:49 ive heard that lisp is king of metaprogramming and i love that concept 21:10:11 steven_t: If I don't tell you about the extraordinary capabilities of CLOS compared to other object systems, will you leave now and go to (say) #python? 21:10:19 <_3b> yeah, graham's stuff is probably bad if you want OOP stuff 21:10:21 i guess im just upset and disappointed that my expectations are different from what im finding in the beginning of the book 21:10:38 beach: i get your point, im trying not to have a "lisp sucks" attitude 21:10:40 Choose a better book? 21:10:45 im just disappointed because i expected something a little better 21:10:54 rtoym: its ANSI Common Lisp.. can you recommend another? 21:10:56 steven_t: Which is neither original, nor appreciated. 21:11:00 i dont think its a bad book. 21:11:04 beach: great, I've found a screenshot, it's beautiful 21:11:07 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:11:09 beach: i get your point 21:11:11 ost: Thanks. 21:11:12 lets move on 21:11:22 steven_t: Sounds good. 21:11:22 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.20.96] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:11:34 <_3b> steven_t: the author doesn't like the way CL does OOP, so if you want CL OOP, you should try another book :) 21:11:40 minion: tell steven_t about pcl 21:11:41 steven_t: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:11:44 im sure i will love lisp after im done with the whole book 21:11:56 oh yeah, gigamonkey writes it right? 21:12:04 Although, I liked ACL, but I already knew quite a bit about lisp by then. 21:12:31 i tried to jump into PCL but at the Lisp in a Box part i kind of switched books cuz i didnt know what that was 21:12:37 *rtoym* learned Lisp from Lisp, by Winston and Horn. 21:12:37 rtoym: Yeah, I learned from that one too, but I was in the same situation as you, so I had no problem with it. 21:13:21 -!- dreampilot [~dreampilo@c-67-190-165-149.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: dreampilot] 21:14:04 ive noticed a ton of recursion in ACL.. more than im used to seeing in other books. is recursion more often used in CL than languages like python/ruby? 21:14:16 <_3b> no 21:14:23 so its just graham then? 21:14:31 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-129-171.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:14:39 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:14:39 steven_t: Recursion is used only when called for, i.e. when your data structure is non-linear and recursively defined. 21:14:40 <_3b> probably 21:14:43 A common theme with these problems seem to be ACL 21:14:47 gotcha 21:14:58 <_3b> textbookss tend to favor than real code in general though 21:14:59 Guthur: I think the common theme is the reader 21:15:06 <_3b> *favor recursion more than 21:15:15 i feel like my complete lack of a formal CS education is making ACL a lot harder to read for me than it probably is for others 21:15:18 :/ 21:16:17 especially chapter 4 with its binary search trees and whatnot 21:16:29 steven_t: that's excellent to hear.. make sure you do all the exercises 21:16:45 i dont see how it would be excellent to hear :? 21:16:46 if recursion seems hard, better practice more recursion 21:17:09 steven_t: it means you have something to learn 21:17:23 buh 21:17:38 steven_t: Many of the hard problems we try to solve are inherently recursive. If you only try to solve simple problems, there is no real need to learn Lisp. 21:19:33 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:46 steven_t: Lack of formal CS is no excuse. I don't have it. 21:20:00 steven_t: Take, for instance computing the layout of a 1000 page music score, and displaying the result (at least of the current page) at typing speed (giving you less than 100ms to do so). That's a hard problem that I would not attempt in any other language. 21:20:24 lispm [~lispm@d221054.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 21:20:51 hmm 21:21:39 steven_t: But if all you want is to sum up a couple of dozen entries and show them on a web page, you can use pretty much any language as far as I am concerned. 21:22:42 i used recursion before i knew what the word "recursion" means, it feels so natural but on the other hand i dont really like OOP 21:22:47 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 21:22:53 beach: are you speaking in terms of performance, with regards to the music store example? 21:22:54 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:05 urandom__: Sorry to hear that. 21:23:49 not sure what OOP has to do with recursion 21:24:10 steven_t: Absolutely! In order to get performance out of that, you need some tricky algorithms that would be nearly impossible to implement and debug in anything other than Lisp, at least by someone with my modest intelligence and my modest amount of time available. 21:24:11 nothing, just wanted to say i am the other way round 21:24:16 urandom__: you dont like oop? 21:24:32 beach: do you know ruby? 21:24:46 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932e770.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:24:55 steven_t: I have read some documentation, but never used it for anything serious. 21:25:27 well OOP os usefull for many stuff but also makes stuff more compilcated 21:25:32 steven_t: But I think any (implementation of a) language that doesn't generate native code would be out of the question for this problem. 21:26:00 chawco [~user@69-165-169-202.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:15 urandom__: Not a very useful remark. 21:26:30 urandom__: how so? 21:26:32 beach: i see 21:26:45 netytan [~netytan@85.211.52.141] has joined #lisp 21:26:47 Edward [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-64-222.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:26:57 beach: ruby's metaprogramming abilities are what led me to lisp actually. 21:27:19 what "how so"? 21:27:32 steven_t: Interesting. 21:27:51 urandom__: how does OOP 'make stuff more complicated'? 21:28:08 urandom__: C functions are useful for many stuff (sic!) but also make stuff more compilcated (sic!). 21:28:12 steven_t: after you finish Graham you should look into PCL, the Keene book, AMOP.. then you'll understand how object-oriented CL is 21:28:50 beach: its a little difficult to understand how lisp could be more powerful though than the things im used to.. because ive always conflated oop with cleanliness.. but obviously thats not entirely correct 21:28:55 adeht: hmm 21:30:10 err, s/powerful/clean/ 21:30:11 steven_t isnt that obvios, OOP means more code (and so more complicated) and less performance 21:30:11 steven_t: Well, it is incorrect in that cleanliness has to do with physical stuff like bacteria and nothing to do with software, unless you are willing to give that word some kind of particular meaning other than "I like it better". 21:30:26 urandom__: im sorry but i dont think i agreew ith your logic. 21:30:30 urandom: that's a very strange assertion 21:30:48 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.11/2010071400]] 21:31:16 In McCLIM, how would I go about finding the elements of the matrix representing a transform? 21:31:19 beach: well for one thing, namespaces are less cluttered in a language like Ruby in which there are no functions, only methods, and in wich namespaces are very heavily used in the language itself 21:31:24 steven_t: And I see that you continue your initial attitude that Lisp cannot possibly be more powerful (because of your ignorance) and is less clean (because of your prejudice). 21:31:41 beach: for example, i can define pi and then i can use Math::pi to get the math module's version of pi while maintaining my own version 21:32:02 beach: no no im explaining my initial feelings, even though like i said, i know they are probably wrong 21:32:04 steven_t: And what prevents you from doing this in Common Lisp? 21:32:07 relax :P 21:32:24 steven_t whats not to agree with? 21:32:31 steven_t: CL has a package system 21:32:35 well so far, 4 chapters into this book, i see a lot of functions that seemingly float out by themselves 21:32:39 hmm 21:32:43 steven_t: which Graham doesn't mention until later on 21:32:48 i think ill just shut up until im done reading it 21:32:52 steven_t: You are definitely *not* expressing feelings here. You are claiming false statements as facts. 21:32:54 steven_t: exactly 21:33:27 beach: you're right about one thing, i need to practice on my communication 21:33:37 steven_t: Definitely! 21:34:01 glad we're on the same pge finally 21:34:22 *_3b* always hates the 'pretend classes are namespaces' thing 21:34:22 sellout [~greg@81.253.36.33] has joined #lisp 21:34:25 steven_t: And when you are ready for the extraordinary experience that Common Lisp is capable of giving you, we will be here to help you. 21:34:26 *steven_t* skips over half of chapter 4 assuming its just describing library functions i can refer back to later 21:34:30 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:31 steven_t: notice that you currently enter your Lisp code in a package common-lisp-user (a.k.a. cl-user).. it uses the common-lisp (a.k.a. cl) package 21:34:32 i think one should not draw to many conclusions from reading Paul Graham's ANSI CL book 21:34:47 that book does not explain CLOS in any useful way 21:34:50 adeht: no i didnt notice that 21:35:07 probably because im using a terrible setup.. im running ccl64 from the terminal 21:35:22 i tried to get emacs + slime set up, but it didnt work. 21:35:44 steven_t: what didn't work? 21:35:44 after following some tutorial on the net about it, i ran emacs and did M-x :slime but it said "not found" 21:35:53 I would at least use the shell inside emacs 21:36:05 steven_t: why the colon? it's `M-x slime' 21:36:15 i meant M-x slime 21:36:22 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:36:22 Is the only way to transform individual points and calculate the coefficients from there?! Say it ain't so! There must be a way to directly extract them 21:36:25 'no match' 21:36:47 steven_t: you didn't require slime 21:37:03 damn macports 21:37:13 *steven_t* sighs 21:37:16 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html#Installation 21:37:50 steven_t: it will be a _much_ better experience if you bother to set up slime 21:37:57 thanks 21:37:58 will do 21:38:23 Heh, I CL without slime... and I'm LOVING IT! 21:39:09 Did you mean: I'm LOATHING IT! 21:39:25 Eh, wait... No, I wrote what I meant 21:39:30 Sikander: Your previous productivity must have been 100 times low than what *I* would expect, because you have another factor 10 to go. 21:39:36 *lower 21:39:43 oh good, its compiling something inside emacs or something 21:40:06 *Sikander* cries a little. 21:40:12 beach: thanks :( 21:40:23 I use nekthuth 21:40:25 steven_t: it's also a good idea to load the contribs.. http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Loading-Contribs.html#Loading-Contribs 21:40:27 Sikander: It's my job. I am a teacher. 21:40:36 steven_t: few people like the minimal interface 21:40:52 beach: But I... dislike emacs 21:41:29 No one knows how to extract matrix coefficients from an McCLIM transform? 21:41:32 *steven_t* <3 vim 21:41:58 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:42:11 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:42:20 well ive got slime running in emacs 21:42:21 beach: which is why I have my 100-year evil master plan: implement vi in CL and get the benefits of slime... 21:42:24 not sure whats so great about it yet 21:42:25 Sikander: I am paid by my country (at least partly) to make the software industry more productive. I can't possibly accept arguments from my students such as "I don't like this", if that means that their choice makes their productivity considerably smaller than I expect from them. 21:42:39 seems the same as before when i was running ccl64 in terminal 21:42:43 steven_t: did you set up wtih slime-fancy? 21:42:45 except its i emacs now 21:42:47 beach: Lucky for me I'm not a student of the computer sciences 21:42:48 :D 21:42:51 i dont think so? 21:43:01 steven_t: look at the last link I gave 21:43:17 thansk 21:43:18 beach: I'm just a guy playing around with a computer language. 21:43:20 oh i see it 21:44:07 heh. now its more colorful 21:44:13 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:44:46 -!- Spewns [~jake@97-92-222-240.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:45:12 beach: plus I'm blazing fast when using vim, while it takes me orders of magnitude more time to get stuff done in emacs (because I'm used to vim). which is why I use nekthuth to interact with the repl 21:45:16 steven_t: good 21:45:36 steven_t: you can right click on the red results and choose, say, inspect 21:46:07 *steven_t* sighs, quits Terminal.app and loads up iTerm 21:46:24 ah, the joys of the mac 21:46:29 Sikander: Good to hear. Did you compute the difference between the accumulated difference in productivity and the time to become blazing fast with something else? 21:46:29 yes. pain in my ass. 21:46:51 steven_t: ugh, are you running emacs from a terminal? 21:46:54 Sikander: The exercise is *very* interesting. 21:47:00 *steven_t* gives up and downloads Aquamacs 21:47:12 andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.39] has joined #lisp 21:47:19 blandest [~user@93.122.194.93] has joined #lisp 21:47:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-47.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:47:26 adeht: i was 21:47:45 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-112-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:58 Sikander: Like, when my students use arrow keys rather than M-C-a and M-C-e, it adds up to a couple of months over a life time. And that's just a single key binding. 21:48:21 beach: which is why i use hjkl 21:48:25 :D 21:48:35 steven_t: there's also http://emacsformacosx.com/ 21:48:35 -!- sellout [~greg@81.253.36.33] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:48:45 *Sikander* doesn't like using his toes on a keyboard. 21:48:49 sellout [~greg@81.253.36.33] has joined #lisp 21:49:15 Sikander: Sure, mock it. That's the way forward. 21:49:18 Aquamacs is pretty good, on its download page one can also download SLIME 21:49:19 i hope this one is better adeht 21:49:24 beach: heheh! 21:50:31 Sikander: What is the vim command to go to the beginning of a Lisp function? This is an honest question because my students sometimes ask me, and I don't know. 21:50:32 beach: let's be honest here; as long as you don't lose time moving hands from one part of the keyboard to the other, it doesn't really matter that much. 21:50:44 Sikander: Not true. 21:50:55 beach: depends on mapping, I guess 21:51:49 beach: I use M-C-a but not M-C-e ;) 21:51:53 Sikander: What are some of the options? 21:52:01 beach: I agree with you that vim script sucks. yes, it sucks. Which is why my evil master plan will be implementing a vi in cl :) 21:52:41 Sikander: you can start with pjb's implementation of ED 21:52:44 :D 21:53:00 adeht: heheh, yes, I know 21:53:23 Sikander: So, again, one day you should do the calculations I suggested. Humans are *very* bad at estimating their productivity. 21:53:35 heyhey [4f9d36ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.157.54.173] has joined #lisp 21:53:46 beach: You assume that I program lisp for a living or even for being productive 21:53:53 Not at all. 21:54:22 beach: Fact: when I fiddle with lisp, I'm actually NOT productive. I'm supposed to stand in a lab and do measurements. 21:54:33 beach: Emacs ain't gonna help there 21:54:34 Sikander: If you thought M-C-a and M-C-e was my only argument, you are wrong. They were just two examples out of hundreds. 21:54:46 SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has joined #lisp 21:54:51 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has joined #lisp 21:55:25 beach: and when I even type, I spend most of the time thinking (because I'm slow, I guess) 21:55:34 beach: That's physicists for you... 21:55:49 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:56:08 Sikander: Standard argument. However, the fact is that we spend many hours per week just typing, and saving only a small fraction of those hours adds up to huge amounts. 21:56:26 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has joined #lisp 21:56:38 Sikander: If you are so slow, why do you care that you are "blazing fast" with vim. 21:56:56 I don't think it is just saving time, because I for one loose time by other means:) 21:57:02 beach: fixing things, I guess 21:57:05 For me the main thing is that the editor can work with s-expressions in a nice way 21:57:20 typing fast lets you be more focused on what you need to do, then how 21:57:39 blandest: So your argument is similar to that of my students: because I suck elsewhere I should such at this too! 21:58:19 beach: I like to think I don't lose time typing or thinging about other UI elements when coding 21:58:22 blandest: Sorry, I misinterpreted your argument. We actually agree. 21:58:29 I just want to type the code with no distraction 21:58:36 beach: all the fast ops I need to do are bound under keys I know. 21:58:38 pessimistic students you have... 21:58:40 beach: I gues we agree :) 21:58:48 beach: single keys, that is 21:58:50 so is lisp one of those languages which ties you to a specific editor? 21:58:55 ie, emacs 21:59:00 steven_t: Paul Graham uses vim 21:59:06 how in the hell 21:59:14 steven_t: It makes you want a specif editor, it does not tie 21:59:21 gotcha 21:59:28 so you *can* use vim, but life would suck if you tried 21:59:28 beach: I agree with you as well, BUT I've the keybindings I need without modifiers. It's fast. 21:59:40 heyhey: Nah, they just correspond to the majority, which I mentioned in the essay cited before (the psychology of learning). 21:59:51 I tired to use VIM for lisp, but the lack of image based design made me go away 21:59:55 steven_t: Emacs is just a Lisper's paradise (at least until Climacs is usable ;) 21:59:56 Sikander: But you don't have the commands you need. 22:00:10 I have actually liked Emacs before knowing about Common Lisp 22:00:12 beach: e.g. top level sexp: t 22:00:32 -!- lispm [~lispm@d221054.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:00:38 next matching brace: % 22:00:53 It was Emacs way of thinking (no clutter, just a minibuffer) and the rest is up to you :) 22:00:55 beach: Agreed, evaluate sexp: \et 22:01:02 three keys, dammit 22:01:17 Sikander: there are several vim-plugins that I tried, but none of them felt "confortable" 22:01:20 That's where the slowness really comes in 22:01:28 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:40 it all seemd to hacked, too "pushed in" 22:01:48 blandest: True 22:02:02 blandest: but I felt that way in emacs. 22:02:10 -!- SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:02:35 As I said, vimscript sucks, so fixing your editor to do what you want sucks with vim. I agree, dammit 22:02:55 lispm [~lispm@d221054.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:04 Anyway, my secret plan is to make my Vietnamese students more productive (in addition to being less expensive than we are) so they will take over the world. 22:03:05 But once you set it up the way you want, it's just as fine. I'm no slower or faster than a friend of mine who swears by emacs. 22:03:13 Sikander: I tried VIM mutiple times and still looks like a god damn good editor if it wasn't for CL :) 22:03:15 Sikander: well, emacs is closer to an OS here 22:03:18 I should say: enemy of mine (if I understand the wars here) 22:03:29 adeht: And I just need an editor :) 22:03:31 Sikander: I use erc for irc, gnus to read mail/news, mingus to control mpd, etc. 22:03:45 erc and gnus go without saying :) 22:04:02 blandest: Dammit, that's why I present my plan: clive, common lisp implementation of the vi editor 22:04:32 adeht: I have urxvt :) 22:05:30 from there I can launch irssi, or weechat, or whatever damn irc client I want. I like mutt for e-mail, moc (and recently shuffletron) for music .... 22:05:44 tcr1 [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has joined #lisp 22:06:04 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:07:21 Sikander: what's nice is that everything's integrated and that you can modify and extend the behavior of the programs you use without exiting anything 22:07:31 beach: productivity is not tied to an editor. It's tied to how well a philosophy fits with your way of thinking. I work with modes, you prefer modeless with modifier keys. Probably there are other philosophies. Find the philosophy that fits your workflow best, and pick the best tool. That's what I think 22:07:40 Sikander: plus it's all in lisp ;) 22:07:45 Sikander: I liked the atempt of using screen with Vim and CL, but it still was a little bit clumsy compared to SLIME 22:08:12 blandest: you mean limp. Yes, have you tried nekthuth? 22:09:03 benny` [~user@i577A73BF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:08 By the way, disclaimer, I'm not a lisp guru. I am CL'ing for about a year now. The things that I want/need to do with CL can be done quickly in my vim setup. 22:09:09 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:33 Perhaps (and if I understand beach, definately) as I grow up, I'll have to eventually move over to emacs. But that day hasn't come yet 22:09:42 Sikander: thanks for the tip, I will tyr it 22:09:45 *try 22:09:56 so nekthuth serves my purposes now. 22:10:15 one would say modes are more stateful than modifier keys... 22:10:18 it's perhaps not as complete as slime. But it's got all I need for now. 22:10:18 I believe some vim + ecl has been built, but not sure how portable that could be 22:10:50 if only more people were interested in a cl vi... 22:11:26 I'm currently working on the ncurses backend for mcclim, just for my vi in cl. But since I don't have much spare time, I don't progress much 22:11:54 in my (limited) developer experience, when you rely too much on the editor than you are having a bigger problem than you may think 22:11:56 Plus, I still don't know how to get matrix coefficients out of an mcclim transform, dammit 22:12:34 -!- pavitras [~Pavitra@76-76-236-67.lisco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:12:48 blandest: I don't know, I'm not a developer. But isn't this opposite of what beach is pushing? 22:12:48 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:13:09 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:14:27 Sikander: definitely! I started using Emacs more than 30 years ago. Best investment in increased productivity I ever made, because most of it has remained the same ever since. 22:15:18 beach: how small is your .emacs? 22:15:24 beach: Fantastic. I (perhaps foolishly) started with vi, since I was working over a modem on some remote machine at the university. 22:15:28 -!- ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:15:35 never looked back 22:15:55 -!- benny` is now known as benny 22:16:07 ost: 105 lines. 22:16:49 ost: But I have other files that it loads, like my input mode for Vietnamese text, that saves me many minutes per day (which adds up to a few nice vacation per year). 22:17:29 -!- andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:17:47 beach: but I have to say, you broke my heart a little today. I agree with increasing productivity as much as possible, but I wouldn't have figured that you would push one way of thinking. 22:18:04 *Sikander* cries a little. 22:18:49 Sorry to have disappointed you. I certainly didn't mean to "push one way of thinking". 22:18:58 andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.39] has joined #lisp 22:19:01 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-67-96.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 22:20:03 Sikander: what I was (drunk)trying to say is that no matter the editor as long as you feel confortable and decently fast 22:20:11 As I said before, vimscript sucks. it's hell to configure it to navigate through lisp code properly, I agree. But once it's set up, it works. However, once I increase my cl capabilities and interests, I may very well outgrow the current configurations, and find I really need emacs/slime. 22:20:13 -!- moah [~gnu@178.1.125.247] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:20:18 I hate going back to Visual Stuio :( 22:20:36 what?! Visual Studio? Isn't it supposed to be legendary?! 22:20:42 *Sikander* forgot the sarcasm tag 22:21:00 Never worked with it; I'm not a developer :D 22:21:03 VS is an operating system, not Emacs 22:21:24 VS <-> Windows as Emacs <-> *nix? 22:21:33 Sikander: you have only lost a few years of your life :)) 22:21:35 blandest: That's just not true. You will feel good, but feeling good is not the same as being productive. The reason is that humans are notoriously bad at estimating their own productivity. This is why people feel productive in languages that are not very expressive, because they have to type a lot, so they feel tired at the end of the day. 22:21:35 because emacs is an operating system as well... 22:21:37 I'm not convinced by the "what fits you best" philosophy which has been applied not only to editors, but to programming languages and OS as well. Is it possible that there aren't objective ways to compare things? 22:22:09 http://sei.meidokon.net/files/parenscript/ <-- parenscript is nice 22:22:19 beach: I agree. But as I said, I haven't outgrown what I'm currently using. 22:22:49 it took me a day to layer on a pseudo-CLOS implementation on top, but now I can almost pretend it's not JS and that it's not retarded 22:22:54 Sikander: fine, but use some introspection some time and look at the significance of your utterings. 22:23:40 Sikander: A good exercise is to put those utterings in the mouth of (say) a COBOL programmer arguing against Common Lisp. 22:23:43 beach: My utterings are basically that when it comes to CL, I'm just learning to crawl. Having a high-efficiency vehicle won't help me yet 22:23:45 beach: I once felt "confortable" in many editor until I tried to pay some attention to kbd macros and text (no language specific) processing 22:23:46 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:24:55 I like the idea of working with C# (for example) and also have my SLIME repl near me:) 22:25:59 Hmmm, pardon me for all this. It would appear that you are all CS people. I'm not (oh, boy, I'm not). Excuse my ramblings, I'm going back to my quantum theory 22:26:00 Sikander: Look, I don't care what you do with your time. I am just telling you what my responsibility as a professor is, and what my observations are. You can do what you want with your life, but I need to try to convince as many as possible of my students of the importance of being productive (and of spreading this idea to industry) in order to justify my salary. 22:26:48 *Sikander* still agrees with beach. 22:26:57 beach: I had collages trying to understand (and eventually get productive) with the Allegro IDE 22:27:19 steven_t: Still here? Try this: 22:27:22 (mapcar (lambda (x) (nth x a)) '(0 1 2 3 4 5)) 22:27:25 beach: However, you seem very zealeous. Do you also go outside and shout at random people that "By God, use Emacs!"? 22:27:34 (setf a '(nil . #1=(a b c . #1#))) 22:27:44 :D 22:27:53 but for short class school home work a readline enable CLISP did wondrs 22:27:57 Sorry, try the second with setf first 22:28:21 (loop for i from 0 upto 12 do (print (nth i a))) 22:28:34 So: setf, mapcar and then loop. 22:28:40 Do you know what you have? 22:29:18 beach: I ask you this: how do you know for a fact that emacs is the most efficient tool for the job? What I mean is: what if there is an awesome editor coming on the market tomorrow, which would increase efficiency 10x wrt emacs. Would YOU have the capacity to recognise this? 22:30:27 Sikander: You see, that's a very common reaction from people who totally misunderstand the message and interpret it as an attack on their way of thinking. I don't even know vim, so I can't tell whether it is more productive, and I don't think I have claimed that. I have just been asking you how you go to the beginning and to the end of a "defun" in vim. I could ask you how to do auto-expanded mode-dependent abbreviations as well 22:30:27 (which save me minutes per day), and I would like to know the answer, but so far I haven't seen any. 22:30:43 I agree with your push for greater efficiency, but from my point of view, it appears you equate this to one very specific set of things now, without allowing the remote possibility that something you don't know could be better 22:30:58 -!- lispm [~lispm@d221054.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:33 Sikander: Not all people here are CS people. :-) 22:31:50 Sikander: some of us actually realize that paredit is the most efficient way to edit Lisp code. 22:31:53 Sikander: If that awesome editor would come along, it would be my obligation as a teacher to try it out and form an opinion about it. I do this all the time, not with editors, but with programming languages. 22:32:17 beach, which one is on the top for now? 22:32:18 unfortunately, some people are so lost in their religious vim-zealousness, they fail to see the light of emacs, and all its wonderful extensions. 22:32:19 beach: I have these tied to single keystrokes. I don't know what auto-expanded mode-dependend abbreviations are, probably because I'm still new with cl :( 22:32:24 But I want to learn 22:32:47 And getting shouted at that "You suck" when you want to learn is not fun 22:32:51 *sykopomp* points out that St. IGNUcius is willing to forgive VIMmers. 22:32:57 heyhey: With languages? CL beats all the others I have compared it to. 22:33:03 -!- kib_home [~kib@kostikbel-1-pt.tunnel.tserv6.fra1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:33:21 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:42 beach: When do you know that you have invested enough time and effort to thoroughly know a language before declaring it more/less efficient? 22:34:22 Sikander: http://i.imgur.com/VXUq1.png beat that? 22:34:24 Sikander: You say M-x abbrev-mode and then you get to define abbreviations that get expanded automatically. I use this when I type French to make qqn expand to quelqu'un, qqc to quelque chose, bje to bonne journée, etc. 22:34:33 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 22:35:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:35:14 beach: ah, abbreviations. That sounds good. I'll add that to my vimscript :) 22:35:42 Or should I not be allowed to add it to a vimscript, but just use emacs? 22:35:45 Sikander: You don't, but there are some hints. For instance, I have a great example of the necessity of having :before, :after, and :around methods to be sure you don't break client code in version 2 of a library. It is an artificial example, but not that contrived. 22:36:08 Sikander: I am not going to respond to provocations like that. 22:36:20 beach: Sorry ;) 22:36:45 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:20 beach: But yes, I thought that those methods (even though I never used them) are awesome! Also, I'm convinced that cl's condition system rocks, even though I'm not very proficient in them. 22:37:36 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 22:37:48 The thing is, I recognise the greatness of those features, which is why I thought "yes, it's worth learning CL" 22:38:12 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:29 Sikander: Again, that's a typical reaction of someone who assumes that I work the same way he or she does, i.e., being an uninformed advocate who has to defend my turf. On the contrary, I listen to (and read about) evidence, even though I don't always have time to try everything out myself. 22:38:45 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 22:38:47 adeht: ...that's actually a little scary. 22:39:13 sykopomp: obviously I usually work with one window 22:39:48 Sikander: Nah, C++ is probably much better, because you are already able to type 1000 lines of code per day in it, and who needs multiple dispatch anyway? 22:40:22 adeht: Heheh, I just use a tiling windowmanager :) 22:40:34 beach: wait, what? I'm agreeing with you! 22:41:11 beach: I'm saying "yes, those are great features! Can't use them but I WANT to use them!" 22:41:13 Sikander: Do you still think I am arguing with you? I am not. 22:41:52 beach: I think implying that I might like C++ is one hell of an insult. 22:42:12 -!- andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:42:18 andrewszhao1 [~andrew@221.131.77.39] has joined #lisp 22:42:18 Sikander: *sigh*, you keep misunderstanding. 22:42:52 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-31-205.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42:57 Sikander: I used stumpwm for a while.. but most of the stuff I do is from emacs anyway 22:43:06 adeht: I'm using stumpwm! 22:43:42 beach: Yes, I keep misunderstanding, because you keep attacking me! For some reason... 22:43:52 Sikander: I just want you to recognize standard arguments that people use as similar to some of the ones that you have been using here. I challenge you to become more scientific in your arguments as opposed to using some that you yourself recognize as silly when put in a different context. 22:44:26 entrosca [~entrosca@ip98-167-231-101.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:29 Sikander: If you think I am attacking you, you are wrong. 22:45:00 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-8-182.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:45:11 Ok, look, I'm just a guy, who happens to dislike why people settle for stupid things while there is awesomeness out there. Then I come to #lisp to ask some questions, and get a load of grief why vim is not to be used because you don't know what the efficient key is for this or that. 22:45:38 Sikander: I just recognize in you a person that I *might* be able to teach to consider what *really* is important here. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother, and I would just ask you to leave instead. 22:46:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:46:39 Then, you take my arguments, twist them and insult me while you're at it, and disregard my only argument why I'm still sticking to vim at this moment. 22:46:40 Sikander: I don't think I have said a single phrase against vim. In fact, I couldn't because I don't even know it. 22:47:55 what's keeping lisp from becoming a more mainstream language? 22:48:08 heyhey: people 22:48:10 Sikander: I am terribly sorry if you feel insulted, but you know what? Having others disagree with you is what science is about, and we just learn to live with people disagreeing. 22:48:26 adeht: what's the problem with people? 22:48:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:49:48 beach: No, I don't go telling my fellow physicists that they are wrong because their mother .... I just argue the points. Which you don't do. I don't even know where the whole C++ came from 22:49:53 heyhey: there are many problems with people.. some of them ask silly questions, some of them come up with silly responses.. ;) 22:49:56 heyhey: I repeat what I said yesterday: If a prerequisite for making Lisp more mainstream is for its users to accept unfounded, unscientific, and ill defined arguments, then I prefer that it stay at this level of popularity. 22:50:00 Plus I never argued that whole point 22:50:13 -!- andrewszhao1 [~andrew@221.131.77.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:21 andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.39] has joined #lisp 22:50:55 -!- andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:02 Sikander: The C++ thing was an analogy that you apparently failed to recognized. I should not have mentioned it. 22:51:26 beach: And if you had read more carefully what I was saying, you would've seen that I'm very willing to switch over to emacs/slime once I increase in proficiency. 22:51:44 beach: In analogy, you are shouting at me for using training wheels 22:51:53 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:51:57 some put the blame on the (...(...)...) 22:52:12 -!- yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:52:20 Sikander: *sigh* "I DON'T CARE WHETHER YOU USE EMACS OR VIM". 22:52:36 beach: then what is your whole attack on me about then 22:52:49 beach: I agree with everything else you said. 22:53:19 beach: And then you say in an angry tone that " Having others disagree with you is what science is about " 22:53:26 beach: So we must be disagreeing somewhere 22:53:35 -!- chawco [~user@69-165-169-202.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:53:37 beach: If not that, then I can't find it 22:53:47 yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 22:53:59 Sikander: It doesn't matter that much. At least not to me. So I will shut up. 22:54:10 beach: no, I want to know. 22:54:33 beach: You're verbally slaughtering me, and then when I ask you why, you retreat 22:55:37 *Sikander* feels like he just got an ass whooping by the head master, without him telling why. 22:56:02 Sikander: Perhaps your main problem is that you are interpreting my utterings as attacks on you. They aren't. 22:56:32 Is it a bad time to tell you all to switch to Scheme? 22:56:34 beach: Then what's with the "I am terribly sorry if you feel insulted, but you know what? Having others disagree with you is what science is about, and we just learn to live with people disagreeing. 22:56:48 heyhey: heheh 22:57:38 Sikander: Holy smoke! You took that as an attack? I spend all my day arguing with people, and it gets pretty heated some time, but then we go have a beer together. That's science. 22:58:11 beach: No, it's not. I don't know where you grew up, but it ain't science; it's called sophism 22:58:28 It's actually opposite to philosophy, the mother of science 22:58:44 beach: Basically, just shout alot and you'll be right in the end. 22:58:59 andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.39] has joined #lisp 22:59:21 In any case, I did not take it as an attack, but as a clear hint that you apparently disagree with me on something. 22:59:36 I just ask: what is that thing you disagree with. 22:59:40 Sikander: Yes, I disagree, but that's normal. 22:59:50 beach: WITH WHAT, dammit! 23:00:09 beach: you just generally.... disagree? 23:00:10 Sikander: with your way of estimating productivity. 23:00:28 beach: What's my way of estimating productivity? 23:00:42 *Sikander* doesn't even know that he even mentioned anything like that. 23:01:06 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:08 beach: Sure, you can disagree with it, even though I never discussed my "way of estimating productivity". 23:01:16 beach: Now THAT's science, right there. 23:02:32 chawco [~user@69-165-169-202.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:42 -!- chawco [~user@69-165-169-202.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:53 beach: I respect you, and your ideas, and I understand your motivations. But I'm not an idiot, you know. 23:03:06 beach: here is a project: "instrument" emacs so that it watches what you're doing, and produce advice on new commands or command combinations to use. 23:03:09 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 23:03:31 Could be done by some final year student ;-) 23:03:53 paperclip? 23:03:53 Bronsa [~bronsa@host15-174-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:03:58 Sounds like Bob 23:04:06 Yes, but without the molesting GUI. 23:04:10 ... I mean clippy 23:04:24 More like when you use M-x some command RET it says whatk key binding exists for it. 23:04:28 pjb: you mean foreseeing what someone is going to type? 23:04:36 heyhey: no, after the fact. 23:04:36 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host15-174-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:04:39 Sikander: I know when a discussion becomes unproductive, so I'll just stop here. I don't think I ever said you were an idiot. In fact I said something like the reason I keep arguing is that you seem sensitive to this kind of stuff. I am sorry you are still feeling insulted. Most of my students would be thrilled to have this discussion. 23:04:53 For example, watching that you're using arrows to move over a sexp and advising C-M-f 23:04:58 pjb: Nice project! 23:05:38 beach: We are not having a discussion. You say you disagree. Fine. I want to know with what. I asked this more than 10 minutes ago. I'm not being the unproductive one here. 23:05:54 beach: A discussion would be moving forward. You are just evading. 23:05:55 <_3b> Sikander: yes you are 23:06:31 Sikander: Fine, let's just say I was wrong from the start. I apologize for my stupidity. 23:06:44 *Sikander* sighs. 23:06:50 pjb: That's handy, works on ccl repl too. I really should learn to use emacs. 23:07:08 beach: No, I want to learn, dammit. Tell me with what you disagree, and why, and I will seriously consider it. 23:07:46 pjb: what about backward-kill-sexp? 23:08:00 Sikander: Maybe some other time. I think this "discussion" has already degenerated way beyond what is interesting to #lisp. 23:08:50 ost: yes, all these sexp-editing functions plus paredit are great. 23:09:04 beach: Then let's go back to the beginning, or msg or whatever. I want to know. Seriously. I'm a reasonable person, and you are now making me out to be unreasonable, unscientific etc. 23:09:38 Sikander: Chill out! It's not that important. 23:09:44 *peterhil* goes to drink a beer by the river. See you all! 23:10:38 peterhil: good plan! 23:10:59 -!- heyhey [4f9d36ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.157.54.173] has left #lisp 23:11:08 *beach* goes to get a glass of wine to toast with peterhil 23:11:16 beach: Ok, you clearly disagree with something that's in your own mind, and decided to imply that I don't know how science works. I've given you ample opportunity to say what you disagree with and work this out as adults, but you decline. 23:11:50 Sikander: it's late in Beach's time zone ;-) 23:12:02 1.12 am where I am 23:12:07 Sikander: I won't be provoked. 23:13:15 I don't get it. I come to #lisp to learn stuff about CL from people who know about CL just to be attacked for no *apparent* reason, and I'm just to roll with it. 23:14:17 Not only am I attacked, I'm insulted to my core, as it is implied that I don't know science. 23:14:37 Again, for no *apparent* reason. 23:14:48 And then, yes let's all grab a beer. 23:14:59 <_3b> in another channel preferably 23:15:12 *Sikander* is sad. 23:15:23 I had not expected that here. 23:15:33 Goodnight. 23:15:37 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:18:29 Wow! 23:19:46 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:22 it just like politics :) 23:20:40 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:21:30 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:33 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.52.141] has quit [Quit: netytan] 23:33:08 -!- blandest [~user@93.122.194.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:34:20 *beach* would be a terrible politician. 23:38:17 good night 23:38:18 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:39:39 minion: memo for OliverUv: I have no objections to what you wrote. 23:39:39 Remembered. I'll tell OliverUv when he/she/it next speaks. 23:41:23 Good night everyone! 23:49:48 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:07 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:50:38 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:51:02 ldunn [~user@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:51:09 -!- andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:12 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:56:04 andrewszhao [~andrew@221.131.77.22] has joined #lisp 23:56:25 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@151-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:56:37 lemoinem [~swoog@224-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp