00:02:58 wow that program sucks 00:03:47 T1750: which? 00:04:43 i wanted to find a specific vandalism i made to wikipedia using that "blame" thing they made it sucks 00:04:46 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-58-25.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:57 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:13 Never heard of it. They don't keep vandalisms in the normal page edit histories on wikipedia.org itself? 00:06:53 different wiki 00:07:06 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-68-86.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:07:45 -!- fatelang [~user@24-217-193-233.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:08:05 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 00:14:17 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:38 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:21:10 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.228] has joined #lisp 00:31:40 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:33:44 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:37:57 basman_ [~user@c-24-23-180-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:09 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:20 i just wrote a program that will find it in python but it will take ages cuz the lib i used isn't thead safe and im too lazy after 4 drinks to make forks and IPC 00:44:42 assuming i don't get wiki-killed for spidering their site 00:45:09 please, no off-topic 00:45:13 sorry 00:45:45 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.13.78] has joined #lisp 00:46:34 i made a room called #listp-ot for anyone who is interested in talking about non lisp related stuff too so we don't disturb this one 00:46:47 Probably a good idea to spell it right 00:47:01 i did in the making #lisp-ot 00:47:03 lol 00:47:09 but yeah good cool 00:47:25 s/cool/call/ 00:47:45 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:47:45 So, #lispcafe all over again? 00:48:07 *T1750* cannot comment cause it's ot :) 00:49:35 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:02 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:50:39 -!- 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#lisp 02:09:15 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:35 fatelang [~user@24-217-193-233.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:45 abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:06 -!- fatelang [~user@24-217-193-233.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:11:48 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:05 -!- basman_ [~user@c-24-23-180-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:16:25 medgno [~user@c-75-72-238-81.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:38 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:52 -!- octet64 [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:21:55 Amazing, I found a way the string comparison functions can't be parameterized: there's no way to specify the character comparison function. 02:25:42 -!- possibly-sam [~androirc@c-75-72-99-111.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:35:12 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:38:05 fatblueduck [~chris@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:20 I tried using asdf-install to install hunchentoot for use with my sbcl and one of the dependencies requires MOP, but sbcl uses SB-MOP 02:39:53 how do I forward symbols exported by one package into the exports of another? 02:40:05 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:05 abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:08 I tried googling and didn't find any obvious solutions 02:40:24 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:30 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:30 what would be the best thing for me to do? 02:40:44 aeouhtns [~daniel@189-47-113-161.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:42:54 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:44:33 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:44:50 aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has joined #lisp 02:49:14 Ralith: what do you mean? 02:49:46 -!- sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!] 02:50:18 gigamonkey: I have packages %llvm and llvm 02:50:24 the former contains direct CFFI bindings 02:50:31 and the latter minimal lispyness wrappings 02:50:42 many of the direct CFFI bindings don't actually require any wrapping 02:50:58 so I'd like to export them from llvm: as-is 02:51:08 So in llvm you need to import the symbols from %llvm and then export them. 02:51:21 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:51:22 import? As in, :use? 02:51:34 as in (:import-from :%llvm :foo :bar :baz) 02:51:39 ahh. 02:51:40 thanks. 02:54:17 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.138.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:55:20 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has joined #lisp 02:55:23 When you :use another package it's exported symbols became "accessible" but not "present" in the using package. 02:55:52 Oh, hang on, you can export accessible symbols to. 02:56:25 So if all the symbols from %llvm you want to export from llvm are exported from %llvm you should be able to (:use :%llvm) and then (:export ...) 02:56:25 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:40 (where "..." is the actual list of symbols you want to export.) 02:57:45 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:57:58 i removed my problem by renaming mop to sb-mop in one of the system files 02:58:11 gigamonkey: sounds good, thanks 02:58:24 gigamonkey: I guess :import-from is the same as :use except selective? 03:01:03 Well, :import-from makes the symbols "present" in the package not just "accessible". And you can import non exported symbols if you want. 03:01:07 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:21 boyscare1 [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:56 oo, neat 03:01:59 -!- boyscare1 [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:01:59 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:02:39 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:24 Basically :use is kind of a symlink and :import-from is a hard link (loosely speaking, ignoring the fact that you :use a package and :import-from specific symbols) 03:07:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:10:56 -!- medgno [~user@c-75-72-238-81.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:13:31 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:14:55 a hunchentoot book would be really cool 03:15:02 it could be entirely white 03:15:08 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:15:09 with the black hunchentoot logo on the front 03:15:20 nothing else 03:16:49 Anyone wants to write one, and doesn't want to deal with typical tech book publishers, get in touch with me. 03:23:26 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:24:50 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:43 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:52 hey, http://xkcd.com/224 03:36:44 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:02 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:41:45 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.11] has joined #lisp 03:42:01 shortsightedsid [c0a314e8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.163.20.232] has joined #lisp 03:42:25 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:43:51 alt21 [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:12 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.238] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 03:44:37 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:51 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:45:17 -!- alt21 [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48:31 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:53:10 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:56:23 something like W(p)GtR for Lisp would be productive I think 03:57:36 Isn't that, perhaps "Casting Spells" 03:58:07 Or maybe this: http://www.amazon.com/Land-Lisp-Learn-Program-Game/dp/1593272812/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1279511871&sr=1-1 03:59:11 oh, great! 03:59:14 Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-148-30-127.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:38 thank you for the link 03:59:51 that was what i was searching for 04:00:06 and hey your lisp book is really good 04:03:01 alt21 [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.83.231] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:04:26 sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:47 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 04:04:51 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:04:51 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:08:41 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-148-30-127.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:13:43 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:13:58 -!- absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:14:38 davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has joined #lisp 04:18:04 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:19:32 aeouhtns: thanks! 04:21:13 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:09 Good morning everyone! 04:22:52 morning beach 04:28:30 -!- alt21 [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:30 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-30-188.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:31:00 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-72-180.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:35:04 morning, beach 04:35:45 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:36:18 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:40:37 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined 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now known as TR2N 06:50:27 ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 06:52:54 Soulman1 [~knute@44.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:53:18 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:53:33 good morning 06:53:43 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 06:55:07 mornings 06:57:44 hello mvilleneuve 06:58:09 OsamaBinWOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:16 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:02:04 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:05:30 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:06:33 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@165.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:07:47 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 07:08:12 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 07:12:23 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined 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[~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:24:39 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:24:49 -!- bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:24:49 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:28:11 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:33:05 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-71.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: plediii] 10:35:29 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:37:20 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 10:37:22 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 10:37:30 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 10:38:26 Just to get the discussion going, I have a proof-of-concept implementation of the lower level of a still-incomplete CLIM3 specification: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/clim3.png 10:40:22 sellout [~greg@89-230.252-81.static-ip.oleane.fr] has joined #lisp 10:43:10 CLIM3? 10:43:23 Yeah, like the successor of CLIM2 10:43:46 (which itself was a successor of CLIM1) 10:45:42 any links to documents? 10:45:59 p_l: For CLIM2 or CLIM3? 10:47:15 why is it that soo many language have a subset of lisp features? 10:47:32 or is it lisp that have included other features from those languages? 10:48:31 CLIM3 10:48:37 Davse_Bamse: I think it's both. 10:49:20 Davse_Bamse: Some languages in their design only can implement some lisp features, not all. 10:49:35 p_l: Very out of date, but still: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/spec.pdf 10:49:38 Davse_Bamse: Lisp simply got there being one of the oldest surviving languages - when many of the languages that are popular now (of the High-Level ones) were just an odd idea in their creator's mind, lisp was already there... 10:49:44 amaron: that sounds reasnoble.. but still, everytime someone come and tell me "Hey check out. It is awesome, can I see that it is a subset of lisp" 10:49:50 Davse_Bamse: And when lisp people see some usefull stuff from other laguanges, they can add it to lisp. 10:50:00 ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:01 amaron: true! I have observed that a couple a times 10:50:34 Davse_Bamse: then you have the fact that modern Lisp dialects (fsvo "modern") are flexible enough that you can bootstrap basically anything on top of them 10:50:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 10:50:49 IIRC Haskell actually started out this way :) 10:50:59 he :-) awesome! 10:51:06 Davse_Bamse: I always get the impression that the designers of Lisp tried to push the limits of the langauge as far as possible without sacrificing performance. No other language I know seems to have been designed that way, and that explains your observation. 10:51:18 so it is true that lisp is no language.. it is a building brick :-) 10:51:35 beach: ahh that sounds reasnoable 10:51:55 more like lego than bricks 10:52:06 Davse_Bamse: I'd say working with it is kinda similar to how I see working with nanofab... no real limit, but you need sometimes to code the necessary blocks yourself :) 10:52:30 hehehe :-) 10:52:39 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-65.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:52:40 _ace4016_ [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-65.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:55 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:53:41 *spacebat* imagines a world overrun by a grey goo of nanoscale parentheses 10:53:48 -!- carrl [~carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:53:51 and some things might not be as obvious or simple to someone used to other languages, take for example the way Ruby world uses DSLs 10:54:47 there's no easy way to write an equivalent of that with CLOS, though you can make something that is equivalent in features - it will just have wildly different syntax and probably use MOP a lot :) 10:56:51 he true.. I was just looking at eiffel and I thought "Hey I can do this and that in lisp too" 10:57:08 -!- _ace4016_ [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-65.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:57:37 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:01:55 Well, most of lisp's features are fairly obvious ideas, and those are the ones that have been duplicated mainly. 11:02:04 I don't see people copying the condition system, for example. 11:02:14 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-65.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:25 And lisp hardly has a monopoly on things like reduce and map. 11:03:34 Even things like "everything is an expression" don't seem to be doing too well. 11:04:04 exceptions are sore thing in most languages, it seems 11:04:49 -!- muddyferret [~muddyferr@83.39.117.46] has quit [Quit: muddyferret] 11:05:07 So, if everyone's so keen to copy lisp, why haven't they? 11:05:07 expressions are one concrete difference between Ruby and Python 11:05:20 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has left #lisp 11:05:21 Personally I think that these things are largely reinvented rather than copied. 11:05:32 exceptions are wrongfully used in languages like C# and Java anyway 11:05:37 (That is the things listed as being stuff copied from lisp) 11:05:47 Zhivago, in the case of Ruby, weren't the ideas copied? 11:06:32 Well, possibly, although ruby's heritage seems more perlish. 11:06:32 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:48 And to be honest, ruby seems to be losing out to python. 11:07:07 Ruby is actually "nicer" Perl, with design based on Smalltalk and bit of Lisp 11:07:10 Javascript is probably the clearest example of 'popular language inspired by lisp by admission' 11:08:06 And that inspiration isn't exactly shining through in obvious ways. 11:08:09 Larry Wall went through a Lisp phase, which he called his own personal McCarthy era 11:08:43 Perl's list context, typeglobs and symbol tables come from that 11:09:08 If you want a language for easy object-oriented programming, or you don't like the Perl ugliness, or you do like the concept of LISP, but don't like too much parentheses, Ruby may be the language of your choice. <--- From Ruby man page 11:09:48 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:10:04 I don't like that Ruby's top level is Object scope 11:10:12 though one has to remember that while Ruby was made to resemble Perl (Matsumoto was working a lot with Perl before Ruby, iirc), a lot of the design comes from Smalltalk 11:10:28 spacebat: you mean "everything is an object" ? 11:10:35 also its numeric representation is broken 11:10:58 everything is an object has some things to recommend it 11:10:58 -!- ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:11:05 gnooth [~test@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:26 I mean that if you define a function in ruby outside of a class 11:11:36 then it is a method of Object 11:11:54 which can easily break the runtime 11:12:26 interesting 11:12:30 haven't tried that yet 11:12:45 I've always extended Object using explicit extensions 11:12:51 too much emphasis on monkey patching 11:12:57 not interesting, this is not #ruby 11:13:05 ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:07 :) 11:13:10 indeed 11:13:17 That's another things that hasn't caught on -- generic functions. 11:13:48 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-184-207-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:10 my assumption was that people (companies) don't like their frameworks to be easily extended 11:14:18 Zhivago: because people got stuck in Object.Method() idea 11:14:21 but that is at most true for closed source 11:14:52 Zhivago: it took Haskell for me to actually get some understanding of CLOS, enough to work with it 11:15:19 I can understand that the corporate world can be conservative and leans towards languages that don't syntactic extension 11:15:36 -!- lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:15:42 so that programmers become more interchangeable and commoditized 11:15:48 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:16:18 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-148-30-127.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:16:18 -!- sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:16:40 but that creates a niche for more dynamic shops, and Ruby certainly benefited from that 11:16:45 I think Lisp is also 11:16:48 -!- ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:16:53 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:17:09 spacebat: that's what made Java popular later on, but those kind of shops aren't cost-efficient IMHO 11:17:20 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:37 yeah... our local ISP has a billing system written in perl 11:17:42 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:18:06 nothing wrong with that per se, but its crufty, monolithic and old 11:18:36 so they hired a team of java guys, who have yet to make significant inroads despite 4 years of hacking 11:19:03 ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 11:19:24 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-71.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 11:19:49 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-20-94-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:20:01 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:20:07 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-20-94-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:55 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21:16 haha 11:21:18 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.190] has joined #lisp 11:21:27 Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-148-30-127.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:01 -!- NIR[f] [~root@188.92.193.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:22:07 lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 11:22:20 afk 11:23:13 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 11:25:26 spacebat: they're trying to refactorize it? 11:25:38 spacebat: often the best to do is to rewrite from scratch. 11:26:26 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:26:45 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:26 yes I think the CTO needs his head read 11:28:24 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:28:43 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:12 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:34:02 -!- dfox [~dfox@r6l51.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:34:26 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:35:07 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-112-47.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:36:18 every time I call (use-package :my-package) from slime it hangs my lisp interaction 11:36:59 NIR[f] [~root@pppoe-47-228.prtcom.ru] has joined #lisp 11:37:02 but I can call the functions in the package by (my-package:foo ...) 11:37:15 is this something I shouldn't be doing? 11:37:18 sbcl? 11:37:25 sbcl, yes 11:37:40 Does it work without SLIME? 11:37:47 or to put it another way, what is the correct way to default a package in the slime listener 11:37:56 I ran into that some months ago 11:37:57 I haven't tried 11:38:01 Try taking a look at your *inferior-lisp* Emacs buffer. 11:38:09 had to revert to a previous version of sbcl to get it to work 11:39:04 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-151-200.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:39:16 nothing, the lisp just hangs, no further expressions will evaluate in any of the slime listeners *inferior-lisp* or *slime-repl sbcl* 11:39:32 No error messages in that buffer? 11:39:42 nope 11:40:00 one before it starts SWANK 11:40:11 WARNING: These Swank interfaces are unimplemented: 11:40:12 (DISASSEMBLE-FRAME DUP EXEC-IMAGE MAKE-FD-STREAM SLDB-BREAK-AT-START 11:40:12 SLDB-BREAK-ON-RETURN SOCKET-FD) 11:40:29 I think warnings are typical. 11:40:39 But I'm not really qualified to say. 11:40:39 and some style warnings 11:40:58 yea, well I don't think I've ever not seen those when I start slime 11:41:18 -!- Odin-` [~sbkhh@157.157.121.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:41:26 what version of sbcl> 11:41:27 ? 11:41:37 1.0.37 11:42:39 it's not a show-stopper at this stage, but it gets really trying having to type (package-name:foo) all the time even with m-/ at my side 11:43:12 maybe make a horrible workaround by renaming my package to :z while I'm working on it 11:43:25 I'm running 1.0.40 and slime 2010-06-22 and its not happening for me 11:43:28 so I just type z:test-me-function 11:43:54 I'm running 2010-04-23 11:43:56 -!- fatblueduck [~chris@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 11:44:04 perhaps I should upgrade slime and sbcl 11:44:22 but it used to, I dimly recall having to step back from 1.0.3x to 1.0.28 or so to evade that bug 11:44:25 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:31 I'd say that's the best idea 11:45:06 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 11:45:07 well it's 23:45 for me, not doing it tonight 11:45:39 xan_ [~xan@host217-39-8-88.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 11:45:40 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:45:46 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:21 I'm having problem loading gsll with ccl trunk. the error is in http://paste.pocoo.org/show/239363. Ideas? 11:47:10 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:47:22 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:48:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:49:37 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:52:41 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:54:22 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:54:42 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:06 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:59:20 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:00:50 xiackok [~umur@78.187.90.153] has joined #lisp 12:01:31 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:32 Dranik [~dim@93.85.228.153] has joined #lisp 12:05:43 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.128.117] has joined #lisp 12:15:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:16:29 im confused with data structures. Its so simple. I have posints (A, B, C ...) and i have some lines between points like (A -> B, A -> C, B -> C) and how can i reference points on lines list. I want query like get A point, find lines from A. It returns (line A -> B) (line A -> C) (line A -> D) and so on i want get point references for coordinates. points in a diferent list 12:16:35 sorry for bad eng. 12:17:40 xiackok: For each point, store a list of lines through that point. 12:23:09 -!- xan_ [~xan@host217-39-8-88.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:23:25 xiackok: you just want to represent a graph, right? 12:23:27 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23:44 yes i thought. did you mean: 12:23:44 ok we have A,B,C points and we have (A -> B) (A -> C) (B -> C) lines: 12:23:44 it must be like this? 12:23:44 ((A (B C)) (B (A C)) (C (A B))) 12:24:19 xiackok: I would use defclass. 12:24:35 im working on rewriting planarity game. http://www.planarity.net/ 12:24:55 ruepel0r [~rue@f051066142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:25:26 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:25:51 my problem is how to reference points. its way use symbols?? 12:26:05 xiackok: I would use defclass. 12:26:05 beach: can you give a little sample 12:26:16 (defclass point () ()) 12:26:39 beach: sorry i mean how can i reference classes?? 12:26:56 i dont want copy points everywhere 12:26:56 xiackok: (make-instance 'point) 12:27:11 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 12:29:21 beach: i mean i have an point instance A. and i want use this instant on points list and lines list. but when i access over lines list and points list to A point. I want access the same instance. If i change the coordinates. I must access to one A object from different lists 12:29:46 barcon332 [~barcon332@208.89.210.254] has joined #lisp 12:30:21 xiackok: Common Lisp never copies anything unless you explicitly asks for it. 12:30:45 xiackok: We (or at least I) call this "uniform reference semantics". 12:31:34 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-yozunfzowfvhxyzi] has joined #lisp 12:31:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:31:49 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mweajdewudxksons] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:32:01 beach: ok "uniform reference semantics" is the key word for me. i will search this thank you 12:32:02 asarch [~asarch@187.132.139.3] has joined #lisp 12:33:20 xiackok: It just means that all objects are referred to through a reference or a pointer, meaning nothing is ever copied (unless you ask for it), and if you store the same object in two different data structures, modifications through one data structure are visible when the object is referenced through the other data structure. 12:34:02 xiackok: Or even shorter: It always does the right thing, and you don't have to worry about it. 12:34:13 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:39 beach: ok i understood. i must try few simple code at house. 12:35:13 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-112-47.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:38:09 beach: and that only apply to objects? 12:38:14 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-30-188.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:38:36 10 is an object. 12:38:40 Davse_Bamse: everything in lisp is an object. 12:38:52 Xach: That's not true. 12:38:57 Except for values and ... 12:39:15 beach: Ok. What are some non-object things in Lisp? 12:39:22 Davse_Bamse: What do you mean when you say "an object". 12:39:43 Xach: The lower part of the letter `L' in the name Lisp. 12:40:02 Xach: What VALUES produces. 12:40:40 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:41:21 Xach: less witty, things like character syntax. 12:41:54 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bkzemutmiyduhfgq] has left #lisp 12:42:40 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:44 Xach: statements such as "everything in x is an object" always get modified into the equivalent of "everything in x that is an object, is an object" after a short discusssion. 12:42:45 -!- NIR[f] [~root@pppoe-47-228.prtcom.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:42:51 Types aren't objects, either. 12:43:12 ... and there are many more examples. 12:43:22 beach: if I have the same list and use it two places whether any chagne is reflected in the other 12:43:40 Davse_Bamse: Yes, I just said that to xiackok 12:44:02 yes.. I just thought that list and object where different 12:44:16 Davse_Bamse: now why did you think that? 12:44:34 Davse: In CL a list is a pattern of data, much like strings are in C. 12:44:40 dunno :-( got confused I think 12:44:54 A great time to explain character syntax and glyph forms. 12:45:33 How is an object saved to disk? 12:45:47 lat: By writing a sequence of bytes. 12:46:11 lat: There are many ways. If the object prints readably, you can use a character stream open for a file and use PRINT. 12:46:15 xiackok: Interesting game. 12:46:17 Hmm, I tried to run the Lispbox 0.7 64bit test build, and it failed with "mmap: Cannot allocate memory ensure_space: failed to validate 8589869056 bytes at .." - that's 8 terabytes by my reckoning. impressive. 12:46:48 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 12:47:32 Does "object" always mean the same thing in CL documents? 12:47:43 lat: It is defined in the CL glossary. 12:47:59 lat: http://l1sp.org/cl/glossary/object 12:48:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:48:53 Madsy: its a headbraker. 12:49:12 Madsy: when you start to playing you cant leave :):) 12:49:46 TomJ: it's common to prereserve a contiguous chunk of address space, but only actually use as much as the user fills up. 12:50:36 I like how that function is called "ensure_space." 12:50:49 xiackok: I wonder if there exists a known algorithm for making non-planar graphs, planar. To solve that game algorithmically that is. 12:51:00 http://paste.lisp.org/+2EVY <-- shouldnt *hest* and *h1* be the same? 12:51:45 TomJ: that's 8 gigabytes 12:52:40 stassats: oh, fail. yes. 12:53:08 Davse_Bamse: you don't modify any objects here 12:53:11 32bit version ran fine anyway 12:53:29 TomJ: check your limits 12:53:30 Davse_Bamse: no. you changed the value a variable is bound to, but did not change the contents of any object. 12:53:35 stassats: but I do a SETF that do not modify values? 12:53:37 Madsy: he says solition for game but img is broken. http://www.debianslashrules.org/Random/Planarity.html 12:53:40 Xach and beach, thanks. 12:53:43 Xach: ahh ofcourse! 12:53:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 12:53:51 Madsy: and of course its possible 12:54:04 Davse_Bamse: try (setf (first *hest*) 42) for example 12:54:13 Madsy: http://johntantalo.com/wiki/Planarity and here the game algorithm 12:54:36 Davse_Bamse: There is a syntax error in your code. You can't do (setf *hest* (1 2 3)). 12:55:06 Davse_Bamse: And if you say '(1 2 3) instead, you are not allowed to modify that list. 12:55:08 beach: yes :-) I copied the wrong line :-) 12:55:42 ahh now I get it :-) great thanks everyone now it work like I expect :-) 12:55:46 Try (list 1 2 3) and then what Xach said. 12:56:09 beach: i did the '(1 2 3) but I copied the wrong line from sbcl 12:56:24 -!- spoofy [~lsj@78.31.74.25] has quit [K-Lined] 12:57:08 Davse_Bamse: And, as I said, if you do that and then try what Xach said, you are subject to undefined behavior. 12:57:15 and you could just do (defparameter *hest* (list 1 2 3)) 12:57:56 stassats: ok, I will remeber that 12:58:06 Guthur [~michael@host81-132-170-159.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:13 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:58:42 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 12:58:48 (why is it that I am not listened to today?) 13:00:19 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has joined #lisp 13:00:36 beach: ? 13:00:54 NIR[f] [~root@188.92.194.61] has joined #lisp 13:00:55 Davse_Bamse: Never mind. It's not important. 13:01:01 ok 13:01:13 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-151-200.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:02:57 TomJ: that was 8G, standard allocation for 64bit SBCL 13:03:20 -!- ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:03:38 Yeah I changed the ulimit 13:04:24 TomJ: be wary of overcommit on linux, though (i.e. don't disable it unless you're going to set virtual space accordingly - Linux got "issues" with its VM) 13:05:39 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 13:05:49 Yeah tell me about it. My servers are all Solaris, but I haven't put lisp or emas on those yet, just learning on my workstation. 13:09:15 ssuhe 13:10:18 -!- aeouhtns_ [~daniel@189-47-112-207.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:10:31 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:51 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 13:13:06 what does a funny function name like #_tmpnam (in CCL) mean? 13:13:59 leo2007: http://openmcl.clozure.com/manual/chapter12.12.html#rm_sharpsign-underscore 13:14:42 timor [~timor@port-92-195-98-126.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:15:18 Xach: many thanks. 13:15:29 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:15:31 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:18:05 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:18:05 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:18:08 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 13:18:48 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-yozunfzowfvhxyzi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:19:43 in ccl is there something like setenv to change environment variable? 13:20:16 ccl:setenv 13:20:27 what an obscure name 13:20:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:18 stassats: thanks. I type env for fuzzy completion and that didn't show up. 13:21:33 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:22:00 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-133-68.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:24:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:24:33 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:24:35 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 13:26:15 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:54 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:29:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:31:19 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/session] has joined #lisp 13:31:21 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/session] has quit [Changing host] 13:31:21 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-uikjjwdngdfvrbia] has joined #lisp 13:31:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:34:08 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:14 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:48 Can't downvote :-( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1525393 13:37:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-212-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:38:21 *Xach* shrugs 13:39:39 smart people should try to convince themselves, then decide what to do about it 13:41:04 I mean: absolute statements like that are usually false 13:41:30 All absolute statements are false! 13:41:40 also, "antisocial community" is kind of funny :) 13:42:02 EVIL #LISP 13:43:27 *ZabaQ* remembers Rahul 13:43:29 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:44:41 metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has joined #lisp 13:45:21 i'll just go and assume every pl gets these kinds of people and i'm just noticing more of them for CL for obvious reasons 13:46:31 jrockway is one of the 303 folks in #lisp. 13:46:53 *Xach* wonders which half he's in 13:47:35 sometimes people feel that the general terseness in #lisp is actually a malign attitude. 13:47:50 maybe it's the topic police :) 13:48:01 maybe i've just been succesfully trolled 13:48:03 anyhow, that's the theory that explains people getting upset after asking stupid questions. 13:48:17 that'll teach me spending time on forums 13:49:08 I've often thought that MUDs would be a good forum for programming discussion. If all else fails, you could challenge someone to single combat. 13:49:10 anyhow, I think CL does get more of these kinds of people speaking against it than most other languages. 13:49:30 with the possible exception of fortran and cobol, which everybody seems to hate in a perfectly even distribution. 13:49:44 aerique: I haven't found it's a good use of time getting into debates over CL in places like that. 13:49:52 *Xach* has too much code to write 13:50:15 -!- NIR[f] [~root@188.92.194.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:50:16 *Xach* wants to make libraries for his favorite CL people to enjoy 13:50:30 How many favourites do you have? 13:51:36 Zhivago: the number of people using the libraries, I'm guessing 13:52:44 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:52:55 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.129.180] has quit [] 13:53:12 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest47691 13:53:38 I think that lisp tends to have a nasty combination of naive newbie and reactionary rearguard. The same probably applies to C, C has a privileged position. 13:53:47 er, but C has, that should be. 13:53:48 i'll go work a bit on my ILGE 2010 for the last 15 minutes at work 13:53:58 "...wading through and evaluating all the half-finished libraries all by yourself, because the community wont do it.." -- yeah, sure, and each every other programming language got its libraries so perfectly sorted-up and polished... pfft. 13:55:13 Lisp just has a reputation for being different, and so attracts a certain ratio of the cranks and the curious 13:55:41 NeverGone [~NeverGone@78-131-94-203.pool.hdsnet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:55:42 Well, it has a magical reputation, which is a bit more than just different. 13:55:58 -!- NeverGone [~NeverGone@78-131-94-203.pool.hdsnet.hu] has left #lisp 13:56:13 Of course, reality can't meet that standard. 13:57:13 Well, things could be better, and people are working on making it better, and I think it will actually be better in the future. 13:57:44 it will grow like a snowballing coral reef! 13:58:03 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-133-68.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:58:09 in sldb, I am seeing "Replace the definition of TEMP-PATHNAME." how to find out the symbol for that restart that can be passed to invoke-restart? 13:58:33 find it on the left 13:58:50 I don't know -- the reactionary attitude toward clojure, newlisp, etc, doesn't give me confidence. 13:58:57 NeverGone [~NeverGone@78-131-94-203.pool.hdsnet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:59:04 -!- NeverGone [~NeverGone@78-131-94-203.pool.hdsnet.hu] has left #lisp 14:00:29 -!- Guest47691 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:00:36 stassats: this is what I see http://imagebin.org/105936 14:01:07 zard1989 [~user@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 14:01:20 leo2007: and the name is CONTINUE 14:01:27 leo2007: it is purple, in []s 14:02:52 thanks, stassats and Xach. 14:04:20 and there is a function CONTINUE, which will do (invoke-restart 'continue) (almost) 14:04:38 NIR[f] [~root@pppoe-45-239.prtcom.ru] has joined #lisp 14:05:03 dto's 'remix this game' thing got slashdotted. 14:05:07 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:06:08 oh no, now lisp will be popular 14:06:42 http://dto.github.com/notebook/remix-this-game.html 14:06:54 he studiously doesn't mention lisp at any point on that page. :) 14:07:34 ah, not true. 14:07:37 "The game logic is written in the Common Lisp programming language" 14:07:46 that's not too subtle 14:08:36 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:08:57 The source examples and file extensions are a bit of a give-away. 14:09:38 I'm experiencing proxy dammange. 14:09:40 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:10:12 anyway, it's pretty cool to see it getting attention. 14:10:52 -!- ruepel0r [~rue@f051066142.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:10:57 -!- NIR[f] [~root@pppoe-45-239.prtcom.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:12:20 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:24:47 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-137.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:24:52 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-137.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:25:19 Odin-` [~sbkhh@157.157.121.26] has joined #lisp 14:26:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-222-213.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:30:23 NIR[f] [~root@pppoe-43-174.prtcom.ru] has joined #lisp 14:31:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:32:31 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:33:47 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:54 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:05 G'morning all. 14:34:09 howdy nyef 14:34:21 are YOU hyped for the boston lisp meeting next week? 14:34:26 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-34-87.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:34:31 I was supposed to bring you a book, but I can't remember which. 14:34:40 An old edition of AIMA? 14:34:51 ah yes 14:35:03 I'll bring it down. 14:35:15 Thanks. 14:35:19 hello nyef. 14:36:23 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:36:55 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:14 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.139.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:42:19 nyef: Was looking at your new register pairing stuff. Does that work for you? 14:43:55 xan_ [~xan@p5DDC4D4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:07 It... doesn't break for me. 14:44:19 Dang. 14:44:32 I can't say that it -works-, but it's the only thing that could be done that is guaranteed to fit the model. 14:44:54 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 14:45:20 I still haven't found the actual bug I've been hunting, but the only approach I have for hunting at this point is to build explicit models of how the code should work and then audit the code against them. 14:46:34 Actually, I should probably also add a limiter that an interior pointer should only be rebased if it points to oldspace. 14:47:04 Which would effectively limit things to heap-space, and allow for values pointing to places like C functions or static spaces to be used unbased. 14:47:25 I have a case on sparc where PC = 0x1027ce58. reg_CODE = 0x1027c96f, but it pairs with 0x1027ce2f which, I think, is reg_A2. 14:48:06 That doesn't work so well. 14:49:23 Really? They're all heap-space addresses, and PC is nominally placed in relation to reg_CODE, and if it's within the body of the object pointed to by reg_CODE then reg_A2 would have its position relative to reg_CODE be a fixed offset... 14:50:06 Well, actually, I don't know if that's the problem. But I do eventually get a segfault early on. Perhaps it's some other register. 14:50:10 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:30 asarch [~asarch@187.132.80.82] has joined #lisp 14:52:28 0x1.... is reg_A2 points to the return PC header. 14:52:58 Shouldn't take you long to convince yourself that that's safe to rebase from. 14:56:47 Yeah, they all point to the same piece of code which if it moves, all move the same amount. 0x1... is read-only space. 14:57:48 And read-only space doesn't move anyway. 14:58:28 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:01:19 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 15:05:05 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:32 Right. 15:07:27 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:07:48 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 15:09:13 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:23 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:11:45 I guess something is messed up. 15:11:57 Okay, just pushed , which may or may not confuse the issue. 15:16:36 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:17:57 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:21:46 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:21:47 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-34-87.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:31 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-35-220.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:22:53 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:24:07 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:24:31 prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has joined #lisp 15:25:27 milanj [~milanj_@93.87.180.213] has joined #lisp 15:26:47 For those who missed it before: I have a proof-of-concept implementation of the lower level of a still-incomplete CLIM3 specification: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/clim3.png 15:27:53 Ooh. 15:28:43 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:30:03 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30:06 Athas`` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:30:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-222-213.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:31:02 ferada [~user@g230249169.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:17 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:32:34 -!- Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:33:14 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:34:31 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:36:14 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:15 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:36:18 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:36:39 Ah, npc is paired to register 0. That doesn't work so well. What did I do wrong? 15:36:44 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:23 -!- Athas`` is now known as Athas 15:37:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:37:59 ... You're in a call-out sequence? 15:38:27 Possibly. Still investigating.... 15:38:44 A2 could be a previous LRA... what's reg_LRA point to? 15:39:42 You said you were in read-only space. Perhaps it's a static-function call-out? 15:40:14 -!- TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:26 And read-only space is in the map file, isn't it? Failing that, you should have a list of the assembly-routines so you can figure out which one you're in... 15:40:30 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:53 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:41:18 -!- barcon332 [~barcon332@208.89.210.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:43:18 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-uikjjwdngdfvrbia] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:43:29 i just hope the slashdotting of the Remix This Game contest gives a good impression for CL.... i may not be the best CL programmer or designer, but who knows, perhaps it will expose people 15:44:23 A good Greek tradition, that. 15:46:22 what? 15:46:22 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.128.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:47:11 dto: I am sure it will be fine. 15:47:38 shipping the sbcl compiler, aside from making a bigger download, is cool because people can edit the game logic in-place :) 15:47:59 most of the negative comments on slashdot were about my graphics being bad 15:48:04 :) 15:48:06 not about lisp 15:49:23 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:50:16 That makes no sense. register 0 isn't a boxed register so it can't be the paired register. 15:50:27 -!- xiackok [~umur@78.187.90.153] has left #lisp 15:50:43 Hrm. 15:51:09 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:51:23 Are you initializing the pair to -1 before doing the search? 15:52:43 -!- NIR[f] [~root@pppoe-43-174.prtcom.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:53:08 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:53:44 Yes, it's your code, more or less. 15:56:45 Hrm... Then check the definition of BOXED_REGISTERS? 15:57:18 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:34 Hrm. It's reg_ZERO anyway, isn't it? 15:58:18 BOXED_REGISTERS looks ok. And yes it's reg_ZERO, aka zero-tn. 15:59:21 Either I have some really stupid typo that I don't see or there's a compiler bug. Within pair_interior_pointer, I see *register_pair is 18, just like for PC. But after return, it looks like it's zero. 15:59:47 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:00:00 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:20 Passing the wrong variable for the register pair? 16:03:23 No, that's not it. The npc value is 4 more than the PC value. 16:03:44 In any case the pair value can't be 0. 16:04:29 I must be doing something stupid. Time to take a break.... 16:04:46 rlb3 [~robert@ng1.cptxoffice.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:56 alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 16:05:56 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-30-188.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:06:41 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-35-220.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 16:07:39 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jafmmzhdjiblufhp] has joined #lisp 16:07:54 NIR[f] [~root@188.92.197.94] has joined #lisp 16:08:27 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:08:43 -!- sellout [~greg@89-230.252-81.static-ip.oleane.fr] has quit [Quit: sellout] 16:12:24 Does usocket work on win32? The portablity doc mentions CL implementaions but not platforms..only one way to find out, I guess.. 16:12:38 -!- NIR[f] [~root@188.92.197.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:12:45 -!- benny [~user@i577A2504.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:13:12 rmarynch [~roman@bras-7-ge-62.122.200.234.utm.if.ua] has joined #lisp 16:13:16 Hi all 16:14:02 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:14:13 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:22 hello rmarynch 16:16:50 Hello rmarynch. 16:16:51 Ohm [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:19 -!- Ohm is now known as Guest12703 16:18:14 billitch1 [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:21 How goes the documentation project? 16:18:21 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:18:54 nyef: how do you think, should src/runtime be structured a bit better in SBCL? New ports are likely to enlarge the chaos there:) The project goes fine... 16:19:40 Actually, I think that src/runtime is the -least- bad of the overlarge source directories. 16:19:51 -!- Guest12703 is now known as OliverUv 16:20:38 can something be done with it? I guess there should be dirs like /x86 /ppc etc? 16:21:28 The problem is that you have a cross-product effect between CPUs and OSes. 16:22:21 thats bad... but it is possible to gather the OS-independent stuff into /common, right? 16:22:40 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Quit: alinp] 16:22:47 I think I'd argue against that, as well. 16:23:06 Now, moving the Config.* files out to a subdirectory makes a certain amount of sense... 16:23:07 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jafmmzhdjiblufhp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:23:40 it may reduce the size of /runtime root almost to a half of the original 16:23:52 260 items is too many 16:24:14 This is still academic until we move away from CVS as system-of-record. 16:24:28 clear 16:25:07 How stupid. pc is not npc. That seems to fix the problem. 16:25:10 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:25:24 rtoym: Ouch. Nice catch, though. 16:25:28 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:44 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:46 nyef: Too much cutting and pasting. 16:25:51 Actually, if we move the per-CPU stuff to separate subdirectories, we can lose a couple of the symlinks in the build process. 16:25:57 rtoym: That's why I used macros. 16:25:59 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:35 nyef: Yes, I used those, but I copy-pasted each call. :-( 16:26:39 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:27:39 Ah, so you rebased pc twice, and npc not at all? 16:27:46 Or paired pc twice? 16:28:09 benny [~user@i577A2072.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:31 I see that we have a single commit, and it is almost the end of the month. I do not know the long SBCL commits history, is that typical for the summer? 16:28:52 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:29:01 nyef: paired npc but put the result into pc variables. 16:29:04 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:09 rmarynch: It's winter in the southern hemisphere. 16:29:18 :) 16:29:33 rmarynch: Actually, it's surprisingly atypical. I don't think we've -ever- had so few commits for a release. 16:29:35 It was strange to be in Kiwiland and hear about Google Summer of Code. 16:29:51 *nyef* would have a pile of commits to go in, but for this stupid bug. 16:29:53 -!- djdatavirusd627 is now known as dj-datavirus627 16:30:15 Interesting. There are cases where pc and npc aren't paired with any register. 16:30:20 ... do you think it's ethical to use Common Lisp for job securitu? 16:30:24 *security 16:30:26 yes 16:30:36 how could it not be ethical? 16:30:40 beach: it's odd when you're not used to there really being a winter/summer, too (the tropics). 16:30:48 rtoym: reg_CODE isn't loaded for assembly-routines or call-in/call-out. 16:30:54 sykopomp: Indeed. 16:31:04 Tanami: cause I heavily doubt my clients ability to find another CL programmer. Ever. 16:31:15 nyef: Ah, ok. The pc value looks like an assembly routine address. 16:31:16 sykopomp: RSOC (Rainy Season Of Code) 16:31:25 :D 16:31:40 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-19-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:31:58 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:32:01 p_l: you chose the best possible language, I wouldn't consider it unethical 16:32:11 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-94.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:12 unless ... you'd rather use COBOL 16:32:38 Tanami: I say "I'd rather use COBOL" when they tell me to use Java 16:32:43 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-30-188.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:32:51 p_l: indeed! 16:33:15 nyef: I see that we can lose some newbie developers, just because their patches are ignored during the long time (I do not say about myself). How can we help that? The patches review process seems to be almost dead :( 16:33:21 p_l: indeed 16:33:43 It might be problematic to use a particular implementation known to be buggy in ways that are not acceptable to the particular development situation. 16:34:16 But I can't see it be a problem to use a particular language, unless that language has intrinsic problems of course. 16:34:39 beach: finding a replacement if I get hit by bus 16:34:42 If there's money, then a CL programmer can manufacture itself. 16:34:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@p5DDC4D4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:35:03 It isn't like the language is particularly complicated. 16:35:44 rmarynch: Part of the problem is that the various developers with commit access have all their cycles taken up by other stuff. 16:36:48 (or holed inside a psych ward, which seems the trend) 16:37:12 tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 16:37:18 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 16:37:32 nyef: but this prevents other developers from getting that commit access:) In such a way the development freezes dramatically 16:37:48 rmarynch: Fork SBCL! 16:37:51 With the US unemployment rate lately, you'd think finding a programmer willing to do CL would be easy. :) 16:37:59 beach: Oh, god. Don't tempt me... 16:38:08 client isn't big enough to warrant that, I guess. 16:38:10 nyef: Sorry! 16:38:39 beach: I do not need two SBCLs, it is enough to have the one 16:39:00 ok, I need to go, afk 16:39:16 Zhivago: but it is intimidating, and has LOTS OF BRACKETS 16:39:19 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:40:50 Just lure them in with cans of cat food. 16:40:57 NIR[f] [~root@188.92.198.131] has joined #lisp 16:41:15 brackets? what brackets?...oh wait... I see them now 16:41:21 Where did they come from 16:42:42 p_l: beware your employer getting over-protective 16:43:11 can't travel on same plane as other CL programmer, etc :) 16:43:12 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:43:29 rmarynch: You call it something else, like IFCL (Iron Finance Common Lisp). 16:43:30 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:24 Iron Finance sounds like a good name for something that the government might bail out 16:44:28 Komi [Komi@62.32.133.3] has joined #lisp 16:45:35 *beach* vanishes to watch Euronews. 16:45:37 Nah, it's where top bankers compete in front of Chairman Koga 16:46:14 nyef: About your comment about checking for from_space. The current cmucl sparc code does that. The PC and NPC registers are only fixed up if they point to the from-space. 16:46:33 One option would simply be to maintain a public git branch of SBCL with all of the pending patches applied. 16:46:35 and then get bailed out by the government (top bankers would presumably settle for nothing less than billions in risky mortgage-backed securities as ingredients) 16:47:18 (Actually, that might be a good idea anyway.) 16:47:20 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ecf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:29 rtoym: Same for reg_LIP? 16:48:02 another option is to give the commit rights to all people who wants it, and then ban those who break the system :) 16:48:10 rtoym: In theory, this only matters for objects positioned -after- the heap spaces anyway. 16:48:12 nyef: Have a testing and stable release? 16:48:21 Guthur: Let's not go that far. 16:49:11 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:49:13 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 16:51:12 No, reg_LIP doesn't have that check. Could be a bug, though. 16:51:28 -!- Odin-` [~sbkhh@157.157.121.26] has quit [Quit: BAH.] 16:51:31 Isn't there a git repo for sbcl? 16:52:21 Sure, which makes the whole thing easier. 16:52:33 Is there any examples of really small Lisp implementations, say to fit within 64KB or less? 16:52:37 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 16:52:50 common lisp? That'd be impressive :) 16:53:05 What I'm suggesting is that someone just step up and make their own public branch of SBCL with the various patches applied, which would make it easier for someone with commit access to just grab one and commit it. 16:53:16 minion: Tell Guther about lisp500? 16:53:37 Oh. No minion. Again. 16:54:29 hehe, I'll check out lisp500 16:54:32 (loop for symbol being the symbol in :cl sum (length (string symbol))) => 11271 16:54:46 how to manage that in Launchpad? 'Fix Committed' would be ambiguous 16:54:50 11k only for all symbols, though i guess it can be compressed 16:54:57 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:04 minion: lisp500? 16:55:04 lisp500: A 500-line-or-less implementation of a basic Lisp, available at http://www.modeemi.fi/~chery/lisp500/ 16:55:42 rmarynch: You'd include the lp bug number in the commit message in an obvious place, so that whoever does the real commit can update lp. 16:55:55 From what I'm reading 500 lines is a little bit of a misnomer 16:56:10 500 unreadable lines 16:56:12 Its 500 lines of C, yes, but a further 5800 lines of CL 16:56:22 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-71.rice.edu] has quit [Quit: plediii] 16:56:24 Hey, that beats SBCL by quite a bit. 16:56:59 nyef: but this does not solve the reviews problem, unfortunately 16:57:38 No, but it'd make it easier for the reviewers to keep track. 16:57:48 CL is probably just not a good fit for embedded systems 16:58:14 embedded doesn't mean small 16:58:14 Guthur: As a full environment? Probably not. But as a target-compiled system, why not? 16:59:07 nyef: there is the link 'bugs with patches' in LP, it is probably enough to keep the list of patches... 16:59:19 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:59:24 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:59:38 Perhaps, but it's still an extra step. 16:59:49 nyef: Good point. 17:00:32 Probably possible with JTAG to have the environment on a PC during development 17:02:12 Guthur: Still requires some careful environment design, and consideration of lisp compilation / load semantics. 17:03:47 nyef: okay, maybe I will create and maintain such git branch. I need to think about it more before making the decision 17:04:01 That's fair. 17:05:10 loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has joined #lisp 17:05:12 Unfortunately I'm probably not going to commit to developing it. I find it really hard to think of worthwhile embedded projects. I have one I want to do, it's quite small, and it has taken ages to actually come across a semi useful project 17:05:36 neyf: but I need to know the person with commit access who will check that branch on regular basis (let us say, once per month) 17:05:58 nyef: sorry, mixed the letters 17:07:45 nyef: I will mail sbcl-devel in case I want to go this way and maintain the branch. We will discuss it there 17:10:49 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:12:41 atzsts [~nullset@unaffiliated/atzsts] has joined #lisp 17:15:16 plediii [~plediii@75-148-137-210-Houston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:00 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 17:18:00 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-19-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: brb] 17:19:20 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-19-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:19:53 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:20:22 -!- atzsts [~nullset@unaffiliated/atzsts] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:21:26 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-19-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:22:47 davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has joined #lisp 17:24:05 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has quit [Client Quit] 17:24:20 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-19-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:26:16 astalla [~Alessio@93-36-225-75.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:28:04 nec555 [~user@207.178.208.5] has joined #lisp 17:28:33 nyef: That all seems to work very nicely now. Thanks! 17:31:37 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:34:00 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:34:05 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:41:58 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:43:50 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 17:44:13 nyef: maybe the idea to have the experimental and stable branches is reasonable? there are a lot of TODO items which are unlikely to jump right into the main CVS repo - they need to be tested first. This could be the purpose of the experimental SBCL branch. Or it is better to follow the rule 'one new feature - one personal git branch'? 17:44:46 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-137.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:48 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-137.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:45:33 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:47:19 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:50:06 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 17:54:22 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:57:55 nyef: a runtime-only CL with external compiler wouldbe nice to have (and might be usable for lisp500-like system) 17:58:33 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 17:58:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:00:56 rsynnott: she (the boss) was really happy about telecommuting, though :) 18:01:07 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:02:59 oconnore [~eric@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 18:04:58 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:05:56 it's the first time I sold someone to replacing an Operating System by mentioning SSH (without mentioning technical terms, though) 18:09:49 Is SSH not a technical term 18:09:57 carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.134] has joined #lisp 18:10:11 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has left #lisp 18:10:33 Guthur: I didn't mention SSH itself, I mentioned the fact I'll be able to login to the server :D 18:11:36 I have grown quite fond of ssh since getting a VPS, understandably of course. 18:12:28 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:13 I tried VNC there recently to access my laptop on the home network, was decidedly underwhelmed 18:13:44 Guthur: try NX 18:15:04 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 18:15:31 umm, I'll give it a spin. cheers p_l 18:15:53 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 18:17:07 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:21:47 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:55 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 18:23:05 UnwashedMeme1 [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 18:24:08 -!- abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:25:12 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:26:46 -!- UnwashedMeme [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:27:11 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.48.168] has joined #lisp 18:27:17 moah [~gnu@178.1.124.187] has joined #lisp 18:27:50 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.48.168] has quit [Client Quit] 18:28:54 -!- plediii [~plediii@75-148-137-210-Houston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: plediii] 18:31:41 -!- rmarynch [~roman@bras-7-ge-62.122.200.234.utm.if.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:32:08 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755ecf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:33:16 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:44 daniel [~daniel@p5082D4E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:37 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082BAF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:43:32 WormDrink [~WormDrink@196-210-144-96.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:46:59 -!- TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:12 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:55 Good evening! 18:49:55 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has joined #lisp 18:49:59 hey beach, afternoon here :) 18:50:15 Although I wish it was 3 more hours in the afternoon so I could go home...or evening would be OK too 18:50:16 TDT: A good one I hope! 18:51:07 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:53:24 coulc be better ;) I noticed there are some ways to run perl within Lisp...same with Python. I was curious about the performance issues with trying to run perl or python from within CL...I'm sure the cffi layer adds a bit, but is it that much slower than just running it straight up? 18:55:10 TDT: Are you practicing subversive activities? 18:55:31 there's a perl-on-cl?... 18:55:53 TDT: do you need cffi to run python from CL? cl-python doesn't use it, iirc 18:56:06 http://www.cliki.net/perl-in-lisp 18:56:13 arbscht: I thought it did, if it didn't then my mistake 18:57:17 beach: Well...figure if there's a kick-butt library in perl or python, and I want to run it from within lisp, if it'll be an issue :) 18:59:07 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 19:01:11 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 19:03:29 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.48.168] has joined #lisp 19:04:26 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:19 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 19:05:34 -!- mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:15 arbscht: Good to see you are still around! How are things these days? 19:09:05 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:09:16 beach: hello :) things are ok! I've been hacking with lisp a lot more, lately 19:09:41 Kenjin [~josesanto@89.214.147.221] has joined #lisp 19:09:53 arbscht: Excellent! I kind of feel responsible for ruining your potentially brilliant career by teaching you Lisp. 19:10:09 ha! 19:11:39 Not so? 19:13:01 about the career, it may be too soon to say. but I'm certainly very happy learning and using lisp 19:13:20 I feel better already :) 19:14:11 Actually, you are smart enough to be able to decide your own career decisions. I am just joking. 19:14:59 I hope you'll let me know if one day it turns out it has had a good impact on your career. 19:15:21 I will 19:17:07 hi 19:17:15 I see clisp says its partly written in c 19:17:19 can i ask what part ? 19:18:43 WormDrink: i don't know offhand, but you could answer your own question if you get the clisp source archive, unpack it, and look at the files. 19:18:57 yeah yeah yeah 19:19:09 (: 19:19:12 was hoping to save time asking here so i can get some porn in 19:19:15 :D 19:19:21 no its cool, i will do that 19:21:38 -!- astalla [~Alessio@93-36-225-75.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 19:22:25 JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:24 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.48.168] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 19:23:53 -!- JohnTheSavage [~jahnthesa@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [] 19:31:06 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@89.214.147.221] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 19:33:57 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:43 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34:56 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:28 alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 19:38:44 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:39:33 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.102.26] has joined #lisp 19:41:24 francogrex [~user@109.130.50.140] has joined #lisp 19:41:24 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:41:45 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:13 I managed to establish callback from sqlite to ECL using the FFI 19:44:51 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:10 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:26 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 19:46:01 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e4339-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 19:46:37 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:49:41 hi, at risk of making someone weep: I need to kill/start a sbcl process that REQUIREs a few hefty modules (hunchentoot, postmodern). I'm developing on "source.lisp" which resumes from a core (with the deps REQUIREd already) before it gets loaded to skip loading them each time while still loading the src in source.lisp. is there a saner way to do this? 19:50:34 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:50:56 egn: i sometimes use buildapp for things like that. 19:51:08 Xach: I'll check it out, thanks 19:51:17 WormDrink: actually the 'c' in 'clisp' comes from C. Most parts of clisp are written in C, mostly for performance reasons. A few high level functions are written in CL. 103620 LOC CL, 320195 LOC C 19:51:36 ah 19:51:37 thanks 19:51:40 that helps 19:51:50 i was looking at compile process and also seemed like that 19:51:56 too tired to dig through source 19:52:15 WormDrink: that's what computers are for. 19:52:22 find . -name \*.lisp -exec cat {} \; | wc ; find . -name \*.[hcd] -exec cat {} \; | wc 19:52:51 well that only tells me how much code is in c or lisp 19:52:54 not what parts 19:53:09 from what i could tell the interpreter/compiler is in c though 19:53:23 Actually IIRC, the compiler is written in lisp. 19:53:27 oh 19:53:29 hmm 19:54:03 There's src/compiler.lisp 19:54:20 clisp compiler is simple, because it targets a lisp machine (the clisp VM). 19:55:33 hmm, what is clisp.run then ? 19:56:42 Most likely the interpreter. 19:56:47 I.e., the VM. 19:57:02 I am confused by the output location of fasl files with asdf2. I have some systems where they are saved in the same place and others to ~/.cache 19:57:03 (I don't know, though, so I may be wrong.) 19:57:12 I don't know. locate clisp.run doesn't give anything here. 19:57:37 its built during compile 19:57:46 and used to compile compile.clisp 19:57:58 i dont argue that compile.clisp is written in lisp 19:58:03 just not sure whats going on 19:58:34 WormDrink: well, lisp.run is an executable in base or full. Perhaps clisp.run is an intermediate stage. 19:58:52 Since there's this lisp code, it needs a clisp interpreter to run the compiler to be compiled. 19:59:30 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.50.140] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:41 Compiling compilers usually involves bootstrapping stages, where a first version of the system is compiled, which is used to compile the following version, and so on. 20:00:07 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.133.3] has quit [] 20:00:49 pjb, i know 20:01:05 i was just not sure - i mean alternatives like with gcc is cross compiling 20:01:33 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:02:06 but anyway 20:02:22 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:03:20 hankhero1 [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:03:20 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:50 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has 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[~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:20:53 peterhil [peterhil@YYCCLXXXVII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:22:30 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:43 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:24:32 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-4d07f360.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:25:09 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:26:06 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:18 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.102.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:28 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:30:13 So, did slime gain some noteworthy features during the last half-year, which were also underpopularised? 20:30:55 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:30:56 perhaps 20:31:09 Any word on what they might be? 20:31:24 i don't know what noteworthy is 20:31:55 Well, anything that excites you will do.. 20:32:07 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has joined #lisp 20:32:24 i'm not easily excited 20:32:41 You're also boring me to tears. 20:33:01 i'm trying! 20:33:04 Catching up a conversation you've no intention to carry on. 20:33:04 -!- bozhidar` [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:12 How meaningful is that. 20:33:20 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:48 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 20:35:48 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-65-102.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:37:03 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:41:00 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:48 -!- nec555 [~user@207.178.208.5] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:47:08 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has 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[~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:16:50 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:16:50 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:17:28 dfox [~dfox@r6l51.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:20:23 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:28 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:37 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.56.182] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 21:29:45 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 21:32:06 BrianRice-mb [~briantric@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:37 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:18 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:38:28 -!- fractal_heart [~matomic@mzhang-linux.ucsd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:38:28 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:38:32 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:38:45 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 21:44:52 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e4339-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:44:55 marioxcc [~user@200.92.184.45] has joined #lisp 21:45:50 hi 21:46:03 ¿what's more efficient? 21:46:17 ¿a cons, or a lenght-2 vector? 21:46:47 Depends on what you use it for. 21:46:58 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.148.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:47:06 rtoym: to store 2 numerical values 21:47:17 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has left #lisp 21:47:18 for an cartesian patfinder 21:47:30 marioxcc: it's more efficient not to use upside down questions in English 21:47:39 What kind of numerical values? 21:48:12 fixnums 21:48:50 Probably doesn't matter then. 21:48:59 But profile, profile, profile, if it really matters. 21:49:04 ok :) 21:50:54 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 21:51:01 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Quit: trying to segfault X] 21:51:07 -!- Dranik [~dim@93.85.228.153] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 21:51:14 space or time efficient? 21:51:47 time, space is not much of an issue 21:52:02 it's a pathfinder, but used on small graphs 21:52:28 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:52:29 If the graphs are small, the pathfinder doesn't take much time does it? 21:52:42 well, yes and no 21:52:51 it takes little time, but it's used very often 21:53:07 so it's the most critical part of the program currently 21:53:11 What fraction of the overall time? 21:53:44 i don't remember, but the important thing is that i need to speed it up 21:53:46 :) 21:54:25 If you can't remember even roughly what fraction, then you have no idea, and I claim it's not important enough to worry about. :-) 21:55:37 also, you can use COMPLEX numbers and structures 21:56:03 rtoym: i forget but the important thing is not how much time it takes NOW, but how much it WILL take 21:56:16 stassats: yes, true :) 21:56:37 marioxcc: then you should care about it in the FUTURE 21:57:01 And right your code so you can easily switch out the representation if needed. 21:57:15 Er, write. 21:57:39 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:40 -!- astalla [~astalla@93-36-225-75.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 21:57:43 yes 21:57:49 i'd use structures in the first place 21:57:59 stassats: ¿why? 21:58:09 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 21:58:18 i only need to store 2 numerical values, nothing more, they are just used in one function 21:58:21 marioxcc: ¡because you will have a distinct type! 21:58:55 sure, but i don't need it 21:59:42 that's a bad argument 22:01:13 usally it would be, but in this function speed is more important than conceptual correctness 22:01:33 i guess structs may be slower on some implementations than cons, ¿aren't they? 22:01:34 We don't actually know that. 22:01:37 *aren't 22:01:45 ok 22:01:49 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:01:55 thanks 22:02:01 did you know that you can store structures in conses or vectors? 22:02:31 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:02:34 marioxcc: and again, ¿ isn't used in English 22:02:47 i did know of vectors and lists 22:03:00 -!- BrianRice-mb [~briantric@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice-mb] 22:03:03 but not of cons directly 22:03:07 yes, sorry for the ¿ 22:03:23 Looks like an upside down question mark to me 22:03:33 Guthur: it's used in spanish. 22:03:34 Begs the question, which language is that used in 22:03:38 ah ok 22:03:54 marioxcc: well, lists are conses 22:03:57 except for NIL 22:04:10 sykopomp, Is it just coincidental that it looks like an upside down question mark? 22:04:17 stassats: sure, but i mean (a . b) instead of (a b) 22:04:19 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:04:21 Guthur: no, that's exactly what it is. 22:04:23 marioxcc: The only way to know for sure is to pick one representation and profile it for your future problems. If it's slow, hopefully you can change representation easily and get some speedup. 22:04:52 sure, thanks for the help 22:04:54 Guthur: it looks like a nose 22:05:11 umm, I suppose it does a bit. 22:06:49 Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:07 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:07:20 also, you can use fixnums directly, if your numbers fit into the half of a fixnum 22:10:30 Packing small fixnums into a fixnum? 22:10:53 right 22:13:05 That would certainly work, using probably the least amount of space and probably be very fast too. 22:16:26 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:56 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA86C0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:19 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:21:59 -!- dfox [~dfox@r6l51.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:22:02 asarch [~asarch@189.188.142.182] has joined #lisp 22:22:45 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:24:48 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:27:19 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:27:54 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:29:21 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:31:33 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-93743.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:33:46 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 22:36:28 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:12 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:56 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:41:31 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 22:43:51 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:44:08 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:59 sctb [~user@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:15 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:48:03 Komi [Komi@83.231.90.114] has joined #lisp 22:48:16 Zontar [~Zontar@80-219-8-29.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:50:59 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:51:02 -!- Zontar [~Zontar@80-219-8-29.dclient.hispeed.ch] has left #lisp 22:51:14 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 22:51:52 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.10.1 -- Are we there yet?] 22:54:14 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 22:54:51 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:55:29 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:55:40 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:56:40 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-20-94-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 23:06:45 bleakgadfly [~cato@168.81-166-171.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:41 igor-explorer_12 [~igor-expl@213.88.72.55] has joined #lisp 23:08:42 Hi I want to learn common lisp and I'd like to ask: what book is better for newbie in lisp (and functional programming as well): On Lisp, ANSI Common Lisp or Practical Common Lisp? I know only C/C++ assembler and Java. so which book would be more appropriate to me at first? 23:08:57 igor-explorer_12: depends if you're a newbie programmer too. 23:09:03 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:11 If you already know programming, read PCL and SICP. 23:09:23 no. I'm professional system programmer 23:09:30 If you're a newbie programmer, read gentle 23:09:32 minion: gentle? 23:09:32 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 23:09:33 igor-explorer_12: PCL to begin with. 23:09:53 igor-explorer_12: (then later PAIP, PCL and SICP). 23:09:56 is it Practical CL? 23:10:01 igor-explorer_12: Yes. 23:10:02 minion: pcl? 23:10:03 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 23:10:32 igor-explorer_12: On Lisp is considerably more abstract, and covers somewhat different things. 23:10:47 davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has joined #lisp 23:10:53 igor-explorer_12: are you interested in languages implementations (compilers) too? 23:10:58 more mathematical than practical? 23:11:08 igor-explorer_12: Not exactly, no. 23:11:16 i got SBCL 23:11:19 (as a system programmer you might). 23:11:24 igor-explorer_12: It builds on things that Lisp has that none of the languages you mentioned has. :) 23:11:37 yes I know 23:11:56 it's more powerful as I know 23:12:02 more high level 23:12:24 SBCL is good compiler? 23:12:29 Yes. 23:12:35 Most CL implementations are good. 23:12:39 i heard that clozure CL is good too 23:12:43 what is better? 23:12:53 They each have their own strong points. 23:13:05 just i don't want to use lispworks or Allegro 23:13:20 emacs+slime+sbcl is nice too. 23:13:26 emacs+paredit+slime+sbcl is nice too. 23:13:53 dabd [~dabd@a81-84-78-157.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 23:13:58 and else question. Does all compillers allow bind lisp code with C code? 23:14:13 igor-explorer_12: Vy russki? 23:14:16 what is the slime? 23:14:18 Most of them, yes. 23:14:19 igor-explorer_12: Not all, no, but most. 23:14:20 yes 23:14:23 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-164.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:26 igor-explorer_12: check CFFI compatibility. 23:14:26 how did you guess? 23:14:37 http://www.paulgraham.com/books.html 23:14:50 :) yes I read this site 23:14:54 paul graham has is books free in electronic format 23:14:55 cool 23:15:08 igor-explorer_12: also browse http://cliki.net/ 23:15:15 igor-explorer_12: Your nick and speech pattern. 23:15:23 ))) 23:15:39 minion: slime? 23:15:40 slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 23:15:51 ok so SBCL as a compiler and PCL as a first book will be OK? 23:16:14 Yes. 23:16:32 Ok thank you for advices 23:16:33 igor-explorer_12:  ,        . :) 23:16:45 where are you from? 23:16:54 Iceland. 23:17:00 cool 23:17:25 your russian is definately better than my english 23:17:48 Meh, I lack vocabulary. 23:17:54 But thank you. 23:18:03 -!- dabd [~dabd@a81-84-78-157.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 23:19:10 just you didn't make mistakes and formed all words like usual russians do 23:19:33 so I thought you are from Ukraine 23:19:37 :) 23:21:39     ,     . :p 23:22:58 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:23:03 russian is difficult language. most russians write with mistakes 23:24:26 igor-explorer_12: all slavic languages are like that 23:24:40 others' positional grammars are weak :P 23:25:05 yes english and german and even french are more simpler 23:25:26 Depends on how you measure them up. 23:25:48 for russian is difficult to learn languages with weak grammar 23:25:48 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:25:55 igor-explorer_12: btw, I have found that some people mixed Czech, Polish and Russian back into a single language that is understandable for speakers of all of those :) 23:26:04 German can be pretty bizarre, too. 23:26:10 German is just bizarre 23:26:15 yes 23:26:25 Slavic grammars are otoh plain WTF 23:26:26 I can understand people from 23:26:30 Poland 23:26:41 I can form a sentence in Polish in almost *any* way 23:26:44 for example 23:26:56 p_l: At least they have grammar, unlike English. O_o 23:27:11 but czech is very different from russian 23:27:12 Odin-: I call it bureaucracy, not grammar 23:27:46 heh 23:27:46 I can't understand people from Czech Republic 23:27:51 -!- sctb [~user@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 23:27:56 English is deceptively simple. It's easy to learn enough to get by, but if you try reading anything even slightly more specialised than the news, you have to climb a bloody mountain. 23:28:40 Odin-: because Formal English is French with English vocabulary 23:28:41 Let alone writing that sort of stuff. Yeesh. 23:28:45 ^_- 23:28:53 yes, phrasal expressions in engrish are terrible 23:29:49 no, french has difficult grammar enough 23:29:53 p_l: I read parts of Krushchev's "secret speech". I prefer 19th century German to that, and even legalistic English is better. 23:30:18 Odin-: did you take newspeak into account? 23:30:30 p_l: I'm perfectly aware it's out of the ordinary. 23:30:38 p_l: Marx isn't exactly typical German, either. 23:30:39 -!- fatblued` [~user@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:45 reading some of the more hardline communist texts is... interesting 23:31:05 though I'm actually considering voting for commies next time 23:31:05 they are boring 23:31:15 texts 23:31:16 igor-explorer_12: I meant the style 23:31:21 aa 23:31:22 But, sheesh, sentences that are larger than my fist when rendered in twelve points on A4? 23:31:24 :) 23:31:55 *Odin-* is mostly a historian of political ideas, hence the texts chosen... 23:31:57 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:32:11 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-54-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:32:43 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:34:26 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-51-20.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:34:29 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-51-20.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:42:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:45:55 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:48:49 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:57:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:58:15 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:45 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.90.114] has quit [] 23:59:25 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]