00:03:09 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:07:12 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:08:34 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-247-126.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:10:11 Inline the defcfun and make a lisp wrapper? 00:13:00 hey folks, i'm running a new lisp game contest, not a lot of experience required!! http://dto.github.com/notebook/remix-this-game.html 00:13:04 it's a remix 00:14:46 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:15:04 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:33 carbocal` [~user@206-248-156-163.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:40 -!- carbocalm [~user@206-248-156-163.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:17:40 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:56 Fuzzy_ [~Fuzzy@c73wn1.wifi.halden.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:25 is set a special form? 00:21:46 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-3009.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 00:23:33 No, it's a function. 00:23:38 clhs set 00:23:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set.htm 00:23:42 See? 00:23:45 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@pool-173-77-26-166.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:24:11 why are some things special forms? 00:24:47 Because it'd be boring if everything was an ordinary form. 00:24:53 right 00:25:11 what if I want boring 00:26:01 It's also because there are some things that need doing that can't be done in terms of the non-special forms. 00:26:17 Little things, like QUOTE. 00:26:27 ok, are those sideeffects? 00:26:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:26:41 quote right! 00:27:07 could one have a function for quote? 00:27:38 without the sugar, like ( quote ... ) ? 00:27:41 Not really, the point is to -not- evaluate stuff. 00:27:53 clhs 3.1.2.1.2.1 00:27:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm 00:28:08 right, so ... would be evaluated. 00:28:24 Argument to functions always are .... 00:28:52 they are passed as values. 00:29:20 it makes sens 00:29:36 I see... some control flow forms, three compiler-control forms, a pile of binding-introduction forms of various sorts... 00:29:55 Make that four compiler-control forms. 00:30:15 is that the minimum? 00:30:23 It's the set for common lisp. 00:30:28 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-195-25.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:05 A more minimal set could probably be found in an appendix of the "LISP 1.5 Programmer's Manual". 00:31:34 Largely because there's a reprint of the original paper describing how to write a lisp interpreter in lisp in there. 00:31:51 I am intrigued by the simplisity, but I feel kind of tricked when I learn about the special forms. It is just special syntax emulating the regular syntax. 00:32:26 <_3b`> you can also implement a bunch of them in terms of each other 00:33:07 would you do that in practice. I guess there is compiler optimizations that 00:33:14 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:33:26 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C04D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:33:26 I guess compiler optimization gets compilcated when doing that... 00:34:52 lambda and some sort of continuations can be used to build most of the rest. 00:35:46 But then, especially wrt continuations, you have to consider the difficulty of compiling the a-bomb of control flow operations into efficient executions of its restricted forms. 00:36:45 ... At least it's just an a-bomb and not an h-bomb... Though the latter might be cleaner... 00:37:00 hehe 00:37:28 nyef: add parallel execution to the mix somehow and I'll be ready to call it the h-bomb 00:37:47 You wanted multithreading, didn't you? 00:38:05 you definately want parallel these days 00:41:34 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:31 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:05 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:46 -!- dfox [~dfox@r6l51.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:53:37 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:32 Okay, I'm gone for the evening. 00:54:35 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 00:56:33 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-30-57-91.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:59:57 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:00:09 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01:34:41 srcerer_ [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:15 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 01:36:33 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:29 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:43:53 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@eth0-2.nmd.four.lax.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:44:29 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:46:22 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 01:47:41 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 01:51:52 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:51:58 Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:19 Xach: pm'ed you with more of my crazy links :) 02:05:16 -!- Fuzzy_ [~Fuzzy@c73wn1.wifi.halden.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:21:05 psilord1 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-230.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:41 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-230.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 02:24:43 yates [~yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:25:17 is there a more well-supported, recent, and/or more powerful lisp web framework available than weblocks? 02:25:35 hunchentoot 02:26:19 i knew that!?! 02:26:31 derrida: thx 02:26:35 :) 02:29:38 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.139.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:32:24 -!- yates [~yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 02:36:12 aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has joined #lisp 02:39:18 sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:20 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@2002:4c73:b93b:0:5ab0:35ff:fe75:6f10] has joined #lisp 02:46:56 hohoho_ [~hohoho@airh128006042.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:47:02 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@2002:4c73:b93b:0:5ab0:35ff:fe75:6f10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:50:50 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:51:52 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:52:36 asarch [~asarch@187.132.139.236] has joined #lisp 02:55:37 -!- hohoho_ [~hohoho@airh128006042.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:57:21 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:57:46 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:00:29 #!sbcl --dynamic-space-size 256 03:00:35 doesn't work 03:00:44 works from the commandline 03:01:21 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:01:23 derrida: hunchentoot isn't like weblocks at all? weblocks is built on hunchentoot. 03:01:44 i know 03:02:04 but i think it's still probably the best answer 03:02:21 Not when one of the criteria was "powerful", IMO. 03:03:02 web4r maybe? 03:03:19 Oh, didn't know about that one. :) Thanks. 03:03:32 I like weblocks, myself, but I don't have a lot to compare it to. 03:04:34 web4r is pretty neat, i played with it a bit but wound up wanting to use hunchentoot for probably sadistic reasons 03:04:52 :) 03:06:17 <_3b`> zophy: you might need a full path, and some OS might not handle args to shell script interpreters usefully 03:07:58 _3b, i use the full path.. linux is the OS, it seems to read the --script runtime option ok 03:08:51 the argument to the option is probably the problem 03:09:01 <_3b`> dunno then, i usually just use buildapp when i want something runnable from commandline 03:17:25 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:37 I'm trying to use http://gist.github.com/480086 to interact with C functions of the style: int foo(char **output); 03:30:43 but I think it's causing segfaults 03:30:51 anyone know what I might be doing wrong? 03:31:29 <_3b`> well, setting it to 0 seems odd 03:31:50 _3b`: the idea is that the C function call on the outer pointer will change that value. 03:32:08 the C function might be: int foo(char **output) { *output = somestr; } 03:32:20 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:33:10 i.e. the inner pointer gets assigned to on the C side of things. 03:33:19 <_3b`> do you then try to access it through inner? 03:33:22 yes 03:33:37 *_3b`* suspects that is the problem 03:33:39 ? 03:33:42 the segfault happens within the call 03:34:24 _3b`: that is, the segfault happens before I have any chance to access it. 03:34:36 <_3b`> ah 03:35:57 <_3b`> what address is it trying to access? 03:36:28 Unhandled memory fault at #x37F. 03:36:56 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:12 <_3b`> if you initialize inner to #x1000 instead of 0, does the address go up by the same amount? 03:37:25 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:38:10 no 03:38:16 remains the same 03:38:26 <_3b`> sure you have a valid function? 03:38:49 not sure what you mean 03:39:09 <_3b`> foo actually exists, and cffi can find it, etc 03:39:12 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:22 I'd get undefined alien, not a segfault 03:39:48 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:40:01 *Ralith* verifies signature 03:40:07 <_3b`> maybe try with-foreign-object to allocate a pointer for inner and see if that helps 03:40:10 <_3b`> or that :) 03:40:28 <_3b`> also make sure you aren't supposed to be allocating space for it to write into 03:40:54 <_3b`> though i guess in that case changing the pointer would probably change the address 03:41:08 I am sure; I have C example code that does this 03:41:16 LLVMExecutionEngineRef engine; 03:41:20 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:41:20 LLVMCreateJITCompiler(&engine, provider, 2, &error); 03:41:43 the type of engine is a pointer to an opaque struct 03:44:25 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:46:25 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48:15 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48:48 -!- barcon332 [~barcon332@208.89.210.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:49:05 -!- methionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:51:46 methionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:50 vishsingh [~vsingh@bas2-toronto10-2925235557.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:52:36 _3b`: w-f-o deallocates once control leaves it, doesn't it? 03:53:13 <_3b`> sounds right 03:54:41 well, then that won't really be useful here :/ 03:55:08 <_3b`> well, it only deallocated the pointer to the pointer 03:55:22 what? 03:55:29 no, I mean 03:55:31 20:39:35 < _3b`> maybe try with-foreign-object to allocate a pointer for inner and see if that helps 03:55:41 <_3b`> actually, i'm not sure what i'm talking about anymore :p 03:55:48 anyway, I tried that just to see how it responded 03:55:50 despite the problems 03:55:53 and it still crashed 03:55:56 this time taking SBCL with it 03:56:03 <_3b`> ouch 03:56:11 *** glibc detected *** /usr/bin/sbcl: free(): invalid pointer: 0xb6165ff0 *** 03:56:47 I know something's wrong on the lisp side of things 03:56:57 because I have C code that does this just fine 03:57:22 <_3b`> yeah, i always get confused trying to translate pointer stuff to cffi :/ 03:58:14 <_3b`> i think you do need to allocate foreign space for inner though 03:58:29 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has joined #lisp 03:58:40 _3b`: why? 03:58:59 <_3b`> & makes a pointer, which you pass to the function... that is outer 03:59:04 right 03:59:11 inner is *just* a pointer. 03:59:17 <_3b`> that points to a pointer, which has the value 0 03:59:18 it could be an integer too. 03:59:32 the pointer's address is set by the C code to space that the C code allocates. 03:59:53 <_3b`> right, but there needs to be somewhere for it to store the address 04:00:02 ...it's its value 04:00:05 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:21 it's where the '0' I pass to make-pointer is stored 04:00:34 <_3b`> that is a lisp value though 04:00:42 <_3b`> you need a C pointer for it to modify 04:01:48 the address of cffi:make-pointer isn't a C pointer? 04:01:52 or rather 04:01:55 doesn't point to a C pointer? 04:02:16 <_3b`> i'd expect make-pointer to be some opaque lisp thing (a SAP or whatever) 04:02:41 okay, was hoping a SAP would fallthrough 04:02:42 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:02:43 but then 04:02:47 why does the w-f-o version fault? 04:03:23 <_3b`> paste that version? 04:03:26 maybe my image was just corrupted by then 04:03:30 will in a sec 04:05:09 <_3b`> actually, now i'm back to thinking you don't need it :p 04:05:18 hm, segfaulted again 04:05:20 _3b`: huh? 04:05:20 <_3b`> did i mention this stuff confuses me? :p 04:05:23 :P 04:07:09 _3b`: refresh the gist, added the wfo version 04:07:23 got around the dealloc issue by returning (make-pointer (pointer-address inner)) in functions that use it 04:08:35 <_3b`> what is c-type in this case? 04:09:42 :pointer 04:09:52 well, a synonym of :pointer 04:09:57 it's only there for documentation purposes 04:09:58 <_3b`> ah, i think that might have been confusing me 04:11:27 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.133.239] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:13:58 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 04:14:08 <_3b`> yeah, i think the first one sounds right again 04:14:22 they should both work. 04:14:27 <_3b`> but inner still isn't much use, since it won't see changes to outer 04:15:09 what? 04:15:13 outer doesn't get changed 04:15:18 how would outer be changed O.o 04:16:20 <_3b`> outer is 1 pointer worth of foreign memory, you pass the pointer to that space to the function, and it changes the contents of that space 04:16:35 <_3b`> it was initialized with the pointer in inner, but nothing points back to inner 04:16:56 _3b`: er, outer points to inner. 04:17:05 outer *is* the pointer to inner 04:17:14 <_3b`> no, outer is a pointer to 0 04:17:18 what? 04:17:28 `(let ((,inner (make-pointer 0))) 04:17:33 <_3b`> right 04:17:41 that's inner 04:17:42 not outer 04:18:17 ooh. 04:18:20 prototype WAS wrong. 04:18:23 jus tmissed the error twice. 04:18:24 somehow. 04:18:28 <_3b`> :p 04:18:45 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:44 *Ralith* rebuilds 04:20:27 <_3b`> what are you working on? 04:21:42 toy lisp compiler 04:21:52 <_3b`> cool 04:21:57 blarg 04:22:05 now the error forwarding is segfaulting. 04:22:12 <_3b`> heh 04:22:18 <_3b`> progress! 04:22:20 ^^ 04:22:25 thanks for taking a look 04:22:56 <_3b`> guess i get to go back to trying to figure out how to implement setf expanders and related bits and pieces :p 04:23:12 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:26:44 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:27:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.83.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:29:29 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@89-180-135-76.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:33:44 xinming [~hyy@218.73.135.82] has joined #lisp 04:34:12 _3b`: does w-f-o call free? 04:34:30 <_3b`> seems like a reasonable thing for it to do 04:34:52 that explains a lot 04:35:12 the pointer obtained from C is being free'd 04:35:13 >.< 04:35:45 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:36:08 <_3b`> not sure i'd expect it to do that 04:36:26 <_3b`> you getting bad pointers from free again? does it drop to ldb or exit completely? 04:36:39 drops to ldb 04:36:49 fuck if I know what to do there though 04:37:08 <_3b`> back should give you a backtrace i think 04:37:44 Kenjin [~josesanto@89-180-135-76.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 04:38:04 kk 04:38:33 ...the fuck? 04:38:42 I've got some code behind a conditional 04:38:50 and whether it's 'unless' or 'when' it still gets called 04:39:00 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:39:42 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 04:39:45 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:40:46 <_3b`> if you add a print to it, does that get called too? 04:40:48 hohoho [~hohoho@airh128004095.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:41:17 hm, wait a minute 04:41:24 you're right, that pointer shouldn't be getting free'd 04:41:36 so why the hell does it memfault when I use the wfo form 04:41:38 but not the other form 04:42:02 *Ralith* tears hair out 04:42:10 <_3b`> my guess would be it thinks you passed it an old one and it should free it before allocating a new one or something, that is a completely random guess though :) 04:43:05 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:43:40 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 04:43:52 _3b`: what thinks that? 04:43:56 the C? 04:43:56 no. 04:44:00 again, see the example I pasted 04:46:10 <_3b`> like i said, random guessing :) if you wanted to test it though, see what happens if you initialize engine to some random number in the c version 04:46:41 it is already 04:46:47 that is, it's not initialized at all 04:47:46 _3b`: 'back' doesn't work in ldb, btw 04:47:50 says unbound variable 04:47:55 <_3b`> hmm, help maybe? 04:48:04 The variable HELP is unbound. 04:48:36 google says 04:48:39 "It's considerably more useful on non-x86 ports because it knows how to do backtraces." 04:48:42 great. 04:48:52 it supports backtraces on everything but the platform everyone's on? 04:49:12 <_3b`> strange, works here... though i guess this is x8664 04:50:33 _3b`: could I get you to try to reproduce? 04:51:12 <_3b`> depends on how hard it is to install stuff 04:51:30 should be easy 04:52:52 grab llvm if you don't have it, then clone http://github.com/Ralith/cllvm and load it and run (llvm:create-jit-compiler-for-module (%llvm:module-create-with-name "root") 2) 04:53:01 hold up 04:53:03 lemme push fixes 04:54:05 pushed 04:54:22 evaluating that expression should cause sbcl to drop into ldb 04:54:38 <_3b`> llvm not quite done installing anyway 04:54:53 with "double free or corruption (out)" from glibc 04:54:59 hm 04:55:14 can I use ldb to find the instruction at a given pc? 04:55:20 no, wait, that won't be useful 04:55:59 -!- aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:56:05 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@89-180-135-76.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:58:21 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 04:59:06 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:00:25 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.139.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:00:27 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 05:00:51 <_3b`> hmm, can't find any llvm libs for ubuntu 9.10 05:01:52 O.o 05:01:55 that can't be right 05:02:02 Kenjin [~josesanto@89.180.135.76] has joined #lisp 05:02:17 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:04:14 <_3b`> seems to just have non-lib version 05:04:27 the static lib, you mean? 05:04:45 <_3b`> binaries and static libs, yeah 05:06:11 <_3b`> shared lib seems to be a new feature of llvm 2.7 05:06:36 and 2.7 isn't available on ubuntu 9.10 yet? 05:06:38 no backport? 05:06:45 <_3b`> dunno 05:07:15 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 05:08:06 um 05:08:08 you on 32 bit? 05:08:11 I could just upload my .so :P 05:08:12 <_3b`> 64 05:08:46 <_3b`> i'll see what is in th ellvm binary tarball 05:10:09 <_3b`> apparently not the big .so :/ 05:11:32 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@89.180.135.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:12:39 :| 05:12:55 feel like doing a build? 05:12:56 hohoho_ [~hohoho@airh128016001.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:14:00 <_3b`> just started one :p 05:15:25 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@airh128004095.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:16:44 thanks 05:20:28 <_3b`> ok, trying again 05:24:31 <_3b`> not particularly useful backtrace :p 05:24:49 ask [~iaim@24.148.202.40] has joined #lisp 05:26:20 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 05:30:50 aw. 05:30:55 you reproduce the crash, though? 05:30:59 <_3b`> yeah 05:32:07 hm 05:32:13 *Ralith* is really drawing a blank 05:32:38 -!- ask [~iaim@24.148.202.40] has left #lisp 05:32:54 <_3b`> create-jit-compiler returns, then the err function crashes i think 05:33:59 oh? 05:34:01 wait 05:34:03 what err function 05:34:11 <_3b`> dispose-message actually 05:36:23 this is why I wish slime gave more detailed backtraces 05:36:27 why is there always stuff missing :| 05:36:42 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 05:38:01 _3b`: okay, you're right, doesn't crash with that commented 05:38:25 but why isn't it filling in an error? :| 05:38:54 <_3b`> does "Unable to find target for this triple (no targets are registered)" sound like a llvm error? 05:39:00 yes 05:39:05 :D 05:39:07 where did you see that? 05:39:13 (I know exactly why that error's happening) 05:39:17 <_3b`> what i was saying before about inner not getting modified :p 05:39:19 (mising init code) 05:39:23 _3b`: ? 05:39:36 <_3b`> sec, lemme reassemble it into the macro and paste it 05:39:42 kk 05:43:16 Kenjin [~josesanto@89.180.135.76] has joined #lisp 05:43:55 <_3b`> ah, i guess that error is asdf2 doing something strange, not actually something to do with my changes 05:49:12 <_3b`> ok, fixing .asd makes that go away 05:49:16 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-120-72.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:56 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-239-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:49:57 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:12 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-239-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:51:00 _3b`: ? 05:51:10 :/ 05:51:56 <_3b`> Ralith: http://paste.lisp.org/display/112577 05:52:32 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@89.180.135.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:52:47 <_3b`> it might still not do scope stuff properly, dunno about that 05:53:00 -!- methionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:54:23 <_3b`> at least the asdf bug is already fixed upstream, so i don't have to report that :p 05:54:42 Guest25748 [~josesanto@89-180-135-76.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 05:55:16 _3b`: that works? 05:55:27 <_3b`> seemed to 05:55:30 O.o 05:55:32 wtf 05:55:38 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:55:49 the C code should be dereferencing that! 05:56:12 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-28-104.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 05:56:14 _3b`: how do you expect the C code to be able to set the value of something that is passed to it by value? 05:56:16 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:56:34 <_3b`> the value passed is the pointer to the space allocated by with-foreign-object 05:58:05 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-19-95.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:58:06 <_3b`> (with-foreign-object (foo :pointer) (format t "~s ~s~%" foo (mem-ref foo :pointer))) 06:00:07 ooooh. 06:02:38 thanks :D 06:02:45 don't think I'd've gotten that 06:04:03 Binding stack exhausted. 06:04:04 O.o 06:04:07 what does that mean 06:04:23 <_3b`> means you broke it :p 06:04:58 :P 06:05:08 -!- Guest25748 [~josesanto@89-180-135-76.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:05:24 <_3b`> too much recursion? 06:05:37 Kenjin_ [~josesanto@89-180-135-76.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 06:05:40 there shouldn't be any recursion 06:05:44 and the backtrace shows none 06:06:20 <_3b`> what does it show? 06:07:15 6: (COMPILE-AND-EVAL 1) 06:07:18 then a bunch of foreign funcs 06:07:23 0: (SB-KERNEL::BINDING-STACK-EXHAUSTED-ERROR) 06:07:31 this is on the third run 06:07:33 first run works 06:07:35 second memory faults 06:07:40 all further ones give this error 06:07:48 probably something not getting cleaned up properly 06:07:55 but the fact that it's not just binding stacks wtfs me 06:11:26 god why do slime backtraces suck so much 06:11:36 <_3b`> because you didn't fix them :p 06:11:48 <_3b`> (it isn't slime, it is the host lisp anyway) 06:12:30 <_3b`> or inferior lisp, or whatever it is in this context 06:13:05 s/slime/sbcl/ then' 06:15:03 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:15:29 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:19:09 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:20:02 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:10 okay, I'll just refrain from deallocating those things for now I guess 06:25:16 everything else works 06:25:19 aid much appreciated 06:27:14 -!- Kenjin_ [~josesanto@89-180-135-76.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:28:29 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:28:57 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-211-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:31:11 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:32:59 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:33:07 Kenjin_ [~josesanto@89.180.135.76] has joined #lisp 06:33:43 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has 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has joined #lisp 07:27:57 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f95c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:22 dr_maligno [~dr_malign@176.Red-88-18-231.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:57 -!- Guest91351 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 07:37:58 -!- chp [ca710c51@gateway/web/freenode/ip.202.113.12.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:39:30 any SBCL hackers know how to get the IR1 from an arbitrary form you want to compile? i just want to see what it looks like 07:40:20 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-211-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:40:24 compile-file :trace-file ? 07:42:19 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:45:01 stassats: it would be nice to get a lisp object out so i can convert it to an svg or something more graphical 07:45:54 there's example code in one the graph libraries to do exactly that 07:46:05 (the result is completely incomprehensible) 07:47:50 yeah, this trace file is pretty 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yobahDegobah [~cmsimon@pool-72-90-115-146.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:50 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 09:38:04 NIR[f] [~root@188.92.197.53] has joined #lisp 09:42:08 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:46:05 ! 09:46:11 ! 09:47:22 Be quiet. 09:48:06 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.6] has joined #lisp 09:49:41 johanlindberg [~johanlind@81-234-18-19-o286.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:49:59 accident, sorry; palm rubbing against touchpad. 09:55:36 is anyone here using lisp on windows? 09:59:31 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:30 Deltafire: there are a few that are awake now and then. Is there anything specific you are wondering about? 10:04:43 well, i would like to know the best setup to use.. at the moment i'm using lispbox with clisp (which works well), however it doesn't include asdf-install 10:04:59 Deltafire: that's a good thing 10:05:01 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:05:14 i'm not sure i can add it either, i think it depends on other tools normally available on a unix-type system (tar etc) 10:05:52 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by Martian Death Ray] 10:06:13 Deltafire: I'm sure there is tar on windows :) 10:06:28 yes, i could install cygwin 10:06:44 but i was wondering if i'm going about this the wrong way 10:06:55 Good q. there. I have no idea. 10:07:32 Deltafire: Personally I don't even use asdf-install. Perhaps you can get clbuild to run on windows? 10:08:01 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:09:30 does clbuild require git? 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:47 I'm pretty sure clbuild isn't going to work on windows 10:11:23 fortunately, downloading software by hand isn't as difficult as people make it out to be. 10:11:55 hefner: right. and I'm sure windows can unpack tarballs. 10:12:55 Komi [Komi@62.32.129.180] has joined #lisp 10:13:04 jmbr [~jmbr@165.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:13:52 -!- johanlindberg [~johanlind@81-234-18-19-o286.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:18:02 well winrar can 10:19:03 maybe dos7 can but don't think so. It does natively handle zips. 10:19:03 still, you should probably pull things from cvs/svn/darcs/git instead 10:19:47 -!- hohoho_ [~hohoho@airh128016001.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:23:07 hohoho [~hohoho@airh128006086.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:24:07 speaking of such things, I'm a little baffled how on OS X, a downloaded .tar.gz file (via Safari) will be gunzipped automatically, but not untarred. Seems like the worst of both worlds. 10:24:41 i think the browser detects gzip compression and automatically decompresses it 10:25:09 a lot of web pages are also sent gzip compressed 10:26:10 i think that describes Mac well 10:26:26 i've seen the same behaviour on some windows browsers also 10:27:20 hefner: That made me laugh with the auto gunzippin'. 10:27:25 Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-65-206.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:29:59 dto: I don't think I got 'em. 10:31:29 dto: I notice your game XONG got a shout out on the front of tigsource recently 10:33:30 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:35:40 hefner: there's an error in many browser configuration where gzipped data is uncompressed automatically, so Safari might be exhibiting that behaviour 10:36:02 (i.e. noticing GZIP data and handling it like Content-Encoding 10:36:03 ) 10:39:01 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 10:46:18 -!- NIR[f] [~root@188.92.197.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:51:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.229.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:53:35 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:53:35 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:53:35 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-23-82-248-84-243.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:53:35 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:53:35 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:53:35 -!- christoph_debian [christoph@sf-ogame.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:53:35 -!- az [~az@2a01:4f8:101:4a2::9c00] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:53:36 -!- fractal_heart [~matomic@mzhang-linux.ucsd.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 10:53:36 -!- syntaxman 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bozhidar` [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 11:59:39 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:02:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-5.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:04:01 goner [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/goner] has joined #lisp 12:13:53 NIR[f] [~root@pppoe-42-230.prtcom.ru] has joined #lisp 12:17:45 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:58 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:19:22 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.129.180] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:19:34 Komi [Komi@83.231.89.90] has joined #lisp 12:22:43 Soulman1 [~knute@44.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:22:46 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:23:35 dfox [~dfox@r6l51.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 12:28:39 prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has joined #lisp 12:29:06 ponderer [~chatzilla@59.161.182.115] has joined #lisp 12:29:15 hi 12:32:06 Are you pondering what I'm pondering? 12:34:06 -!- sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:34:07 maybe... 12:34:07 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has joined #lisp 12:34:30 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-115-13.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:34:35 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:01 hefner [~root@ppp-58-11-46-139.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:35:12 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:35:53 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@165.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:56 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has joined #lisp 12:37:23 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:39:18 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:49 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.152.64] has quit [Quit: Well, the machine might have gone down. Brb after a reboot.] 12:54:52 asarch [~asarch@187.132.131.31] has joined #lisp 12:55:23 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.38.217] has joined #lisp 12:56:46 moah [~gnu@dslb-092-073-070-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:05 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@airh128006086.mobile.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:00:34 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75732c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:04 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:24 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 13:19:07 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.131.31] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:22:43 ponderer: I don't recognize your nick. Are you new here? 13:22:53 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:49 "New Now Know How"... i recognize that ircname from somewhere 13:30:09 p_l: Seems to be some default for chatzilla. 13:32:20 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-11989.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:23 ah 13:32:24 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.6] has joined #lisp 13:32:33 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-11989.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:00 *p_l* is used to irssi which uses GECOS field for ircname 13:45:07 -!- cthuluh [moo@supergoo.wxcvbn.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:02 e-future [~e-future@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 13:49:03 -!- e-future [~e-future@a89-152-184-50.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Changing host] 13:49:03 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 13:49:22 hefner: yes i saw the xong link on tig :) 13:59:01 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:02:11 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:04:55 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:48 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75732c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:06 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-58-11-46-139.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:11:34 netgod [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:38 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:17 G'morning all. 14:13:42 hello nyef 14:16:19 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:07 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:41 carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.238] has joined #lisp 14:24:43 Old_Spike0 [~Old_Spike@213.37.52.40.static.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:51 peterhil [peterhil@YYYMMMCDIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 14:27:29 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A426.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:11 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:29:53 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 14:30:20 So, going back to yesterday's question about losing signals in PA... I found a scenario in which PPC will do precisely that. 14:31:18 At least, there's a strong indication that it will. 14:31:30 Worse, it actually loses PA at such points. 14:35:30 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:36:17 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 14:44:36 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:33 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:45:57 ephcon [~ephcon@67.196.206.226] has joined #lisp 14:46:49 splittist [~David@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:46:53 morning 14:47:11 hello splittist 14:47:18 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 14:50:48 Okay, scratch that theory, looks like there's a bad comment in check_interrupt_context_or_lose(). 14:59:58 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 15:00:07 nvteighen [~nvteighen@80.30.171.65] has joined #lisp 15:00:17 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@67.196.206.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:00:19 Odin-` [~sbkhh@157.157.121.26] has joined #lisp 15:01:25 A style question: If one creates a procedure that takes an instance of a class, would you create a method even though no genericity is needed? 15:01:46 -!- dfox [~dfox@r6l51.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:03:03 It rather depends on how I feel the program will develop over time. 15:03:03 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:14 nvteighen: You can easily make it a generic function later. 15:03:25 Well, that's what I usually do 15:03:33 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 15:03:35 but I've seen people that just use defmethod 15:03:49 kinda by default 15:09:41 it doesn't matter much because in any case there's no need to change the callers 15:10:06 yup... 15:10:07 (as opposed to Some Other Languages) 15:10:35 well, using defmethod may be useful to coerce a procedure to work just with one single type/class 15:10:48 without using (typep ...) weird stuff 15:11:05 or check-type. 15:11:58 nah. the types won't be checked statically anyway (well, sbcl might give warnings), so no big win over just landing in the debugger with a type error 15:12:15 No, I was thinking at runtime 15:12:28 and check-type would be better due to expressing the intent in a clearer manner, yeah 15:13:03 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:13:37 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:52 The thing is that I prefer to use defun's over defmethod's unless some generic is needed 15:14:03 dunno... it's due to my Scheme background I guess 15:14:30 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-49.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:50 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:16:49 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:17:20 then use defuns, it's not anything to obsess over 15:19:59 ok 15:20:26 I thought there might be a technical reason, but if it's style... then I'll keep doing it so 15:23:43 -!- Old_Spike0 [~Old_Spike@213.37.52.40.static.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:26:27 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:28:38 -!- ponderer [~chatzilla@59.161.182.115] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100625222733]] 15:29:23 dfox [~dfox@r6l51.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 15:29:40 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 15:29:43 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:19 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:33:04 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:36:06 BrianRice` [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:06 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] 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[~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 17:07:16 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:07:30 -!- rmarynch [~roman@bras-4-ge-62.122.200.230.utm.if.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:19:08 hdurer_ [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:23 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@nat/yahoo/x-mjhozphfjxswnhiq] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:20:34 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 17:20:48 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 17:24:51 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@210.8.79.105] has joined #lisp 17:25:15 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@210.8.79.105] has quit [Changing host] 17:25:15 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:26:47 -!- benny` is now known as benny 17:26:50 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:27:45 -!- hdurer_ [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:28:14 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-37.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:29 timor [~timor@port-92-195-236-238.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:31:10 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:31:15 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-236-238.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32:40 ok, i can start sbcl with --dynamic-space-size 256 and get it to run on my virtual server, but i wonder how i can profile the memory usage of sbcl now ? 17:33:00 k 17:34:03 timegod [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:12 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Quit: alinp] 17:35:32 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:41 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:37:43 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:19 hdurer_ [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:29 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 17:42:50 zophy: (room t) will give some detailed info. 17:48:07 Be careful when using ROOM, though. The SBCL implementation is in desperate need of maintenance. 17:49:35 (Here's an utterly silly Englishism: The verb is to maintain, but the property of being maintained is maintenance. Both from the French, IIRC, but one indirectly.) 17:50:00 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:51:08 Just don't get into pronunciation next. 17:54:31 Why not? 17:55:37 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:55:41 The spectrum of a speech signal is controlled by reshaping the throat and oral and nasal cavities, and by repositioning the tongue, among other effects. 17:56:18 Therefore, the principles of muscular control should apply to speech signal generation... 17:56:19 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:02 Giving a possible angle of attack for ab inito models of coarticulation effects. 17:57:25 Ah well, so much for literacy. 17:57:51 Heh. 17:57:54 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:58:14 You might consider how "pronunciation" is pronounced. 17:58:51 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-72-180.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:59:04 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-28-104.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:35 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 18:01:44 ephcon [~ephcon@67.196.203.18] has joined #lisp 18:03:07 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-37.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:03:35 rkm_ [62659c44@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.101.156.68] has joined #lisp 18:06:28 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@67.196.203.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:14:10 Kenjin [~josesanto@89-180-135-76.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 18:17:16 -!- hdurer_ [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:19:07 hdurer_ [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:45 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.127.18] has joined #lisp 18:20:10 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:25:45 nyef: What's the best way to invoke the undefined-tramp? 18:26:57 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:42 dto: ping 18:28:06 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.142.28] has quit [Quit: Well, the machine might have gone down. Brb after a reboot.] 18:31:03 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.142.28] has joined #lisp 18:33:12 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-183.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:18 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-183.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:35 heh. CLOSE isn't exported from openmcl-socket. :\ 18:33:50 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.142.28] has quit [Client Quit] 18:36:46 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:36:49 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:36:52 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082BAF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:03 -!- rkm_ [62659c44@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.101.156.68] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:39:49 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082E13C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:40:27 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-71-59-211-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:05 is there a reason why CLOSE isn't exported from iolib.sockets? 18:44:52 sykopomp: because it's CL:CLOSE? 18:45:47 stassats: oh 18:45:56 gray streams and all 18:45:59 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:15 stassats: thank you. That really confused me :\ 18:47:08 pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:58 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:28 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:52:25 -!- navigator [~navigator@p548970AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:03:29 -!- TDT` [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:03:34 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA8EC9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:18 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:24 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:07:36 rtoym: (defun foo () (undefined-function)) (foo). Make sure FOO gets compiled 19:08:09 rtoym: If you just try to funcall #'undefined-function, you'll get the -other- code path for undefinition, which is in coerce-callable-to-fun. 19:08:18 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.89.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:08:30 nyef: Yeah, I figure that out. Works as expected on sparc. Doesn't work on x86. :-( I must have messed up the assembly routine. 19:08:39 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-120-72.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:09 What about closure tramp? Although, I think that's probably working because when I had that wrong, cmucl wouldn't load. 19:10:47 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:11:03 Closure tramp? Similar effect, you need an fdefinition object that's set to a closure. 19:12:06 Hmm. The disassembler seems not to disassemble int 3 instructions. 19:12:14 So, something like (let ((x 2)) (setf (fdefinition 'closure-test) (lambda () (incf x 1)))) should set things up, then call closure-test the same way you called undefined-function. 19:12:15 Ok, I'll give that a try soon. 19:12:44 Or possibly a defmethod, not sure how those work in cmucl. 19:13:14 (In sbcl, they're run through the closure tramp, then the funcallable-instance tramp, then end up at the right function.) 19:14:10 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:14:35 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:02 TomJ [~tomj@89.240.204.35] has joined #lisp 19:16:13 Thanks. Your closure-test works on sparc. 19:16:36 -!- pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:16:42 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:43 Zombie1 [~abc@196.207.27.99] has joined #lisp 19:16:44 Komi [Komi@62.32.135.50] has joined #lisp 19:16:55 Works on x86 too. That's good. 19:17:11 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 19:17:14 -!- Zombie1 [~abc@196.207.27.99] has left #lisp 19:17:16 Undefined tramp is broken. 19:17:21 On x86. 19:18:12 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:18:17 Umm... x86 function layout is different, isn't it? 19:18:49 The SELF slot is an unboxed pointer to the entry point. 19:19:43 *rtoym* goes to look... 19:20:36 -!- yobahDegobah [~cmsimon@pool-72-90-115-146.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:20:55 Seems to be an boxed pointer here. 19:22:12 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:22:42 carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.238] has joined #lisp 19:23:08 Really? How odd. 19:23:41 Maybe not. I'm still looking.... 19:24:36 stellaG [~cmsimon@pool-72-90-115-146.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:21 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.127.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:26:24 I think you're right. It is unboxed. 19:26:38 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.105.190.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:27 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:28:35 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 19:30:01 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 19:31:54 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-71-59-211-125.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher] 19:36:25 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 19:43:02 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-211-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:45:43 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-092-073-070-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:48:02 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:51:59 -!- NIR[f] [~root@pppoe-42-230.prtcom.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:52:01 Yay! undefined-tramp is now working. 19:53:22 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:49 Xach: cl-plplot isn't in http://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects. 19:53:59 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:55:16 CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 19:55:47 frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:48 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-48-33.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:56:58 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-37.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:57:17 -!- stellaG [~cmsimon@pool-72-90-115-146.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:02:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 20:12:58 -!- frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:13:37 frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:56 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.113.79.8.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:41 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.105.190.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:16:01 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:57 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:31 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:18:00 -!- frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:18:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 20:19:34 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:20:18 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-211-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:23:49 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:25:02 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:25:22 ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:01 Hmm. It wouldn't be too hard to move the ppc tramps to Lisp assembly. But without a way of testing, that's probably not a good idea. 20:28:11 Start making a TODO (and audit) list for the various platforms you can't test on, for when someone comes around to actually maintain them? 20:30:17 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:31:23 -!- CrEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:05 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:34:26 Dranik [~dim@178.125.35.66] has joined #lisp 20:38:25 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@93-80-65-206.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:38:33 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has quit [Quit: Oo] 20:40:00 -!- Dranik [~dim@178.125.35.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:36 T1750 [~T1750@unaffiliated/t1750] has joined #lisp 20:41:15 http://www.cpan.org/ ... http://pypi.python.org/pypi ... where is this for lisp? 20:43:37 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:43:37 T1750: Nothing like it. 20:44:02 seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:13 Xach: For now, we hope, right? 20:44:21 Odin-`: yeah. 20:44:56 T1750: many people here use clbuild to get libraries 20:45:57 *rtoym* is patiently waiting for quicklisp. 20:45:59 though we might go soon for Quicklisp :) 20:46:09 Some of us just keep our dependencies so far down that managing things manually is easy enough. 20:46:17 astalla [~astalla@93-36-227-82.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:46:29 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.113.79.8.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:38 however, forgive me for saying this, but I'm starting to feel that a tool like Ivy (or Maven, except without that fugly XML) might be necessary 20:47:45 (one that can keep deps *per project*, including versions and local changes) 20:48:04 -!- Phaedrus_ [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:48:56 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:37 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:49:57 p_l: what does "keep deps" mean in that sentence? 20:50:04 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@89-180-135-76.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:12 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 20:50:23 Xach: keeps track of dependencies including versioning etc., but per project 20:50:34 local "cache" + per project links or copies 20:50:48 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 20:51:17 so upstream can make incompatible change even if upstream is a source repo because the project is running on development versions 20:51:26 *Xach* has never been to java-world, used or seen any of its now-common tools. 20:51:41 abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:06 *T1750* likes lisp language, but doesn't really like how disconnected it all is, with python i want to say use kde wallet, "pip install keyring" 20:52:09 me neither, however I had seen some of the functionality trying to run it 20:52:09 p_l: i'm hoping the indelibility of archives on quicklisp.org helps moving back to previous sets of working versions. 20:52:18 T1750: well, you'll have to get used to it for now. 20:52:23 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:52:31 Xach: yeah, but I'm talking about user-side as well 20:52:48 "for now" is important 20:53:01 if some clever person is making it right 20:53:09 that makes lisp a better bet to invest in 20:54:21 Xach: anyway, Quicklisp is definitely a go in good direction, though I'd like to make it work with Drakma etc. (as an option), so I could make a small, ECL-built binary for it 20:54:51 p_l: drakma for the https? 20:56:21 T1750: a lot of people are working on making it nicer, it's not clear yet that any in particular will actually help. 20:56:36 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-23-82-248-84-243.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:56:42 Xach: and for proxy support 20:56:55 -!- netgod [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:58 -!- timegod [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:20 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:57:34 proxy is no problem, but https proxy is a drakma thing too. 20:57:47 though you could also just use cl+ssl with the built-in quicklisp client, too. 20:58:31 the http fetching will be hookable for that purpose. 20:58:47 Xach: yes, but it means duplicating extra while losing the experience and testing that went into drakma 20:59:01 *Xach* doesn't give a shit 20:59:40 there's got to be a bunch of coders out there in the day on a .net who would rather be working on lisp 20:59:49 Xach: well, if you want to put in your own work for that, sure. I just care about dumping a nice executable that can replace clbuild and that has full functionality on all platforms :) 21:00:29 and in "platforms" I include "HELP MY WORKPLACE/UNIVERSITY LOCKED ME BEHIND FASCIST PROXY/FIREWALL!" kind as well :) 21:00:45 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 21:00:58 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:01:47 *T1750* wonders if people in here would ever do paid lisp work without charging astronomical rates 21:02:19 yes 21:02:30 Cost is a function of supply and demand. Given that there's very little supply, anyone who found a demand would surely charge as much as they could! 21:02:53 TomJ: not everyone is a walking game theory bot or short-sighted 21:02:57 *p_l* would happily work from £12/hr if there were enough hours and the work was interesting 21:02:59 *Xach* once did hundreds of hours of Lisp work for free! but it was for his father-in-law 21:03:14 by making the cost too high it just means no use lisp for project 21:03:23 And I'd happily drop that rate lower depending on project 21:03:32 and other projects... 21:04:13 T1750: people overly focused on costs end up paying more after their "made in India sweatshop" software breaks down 21:04:34 i mean fair play to those who can cold COBOL charging a jag, 12 holidays a year and a ride on the wife who would want to 21:04:36 T1750: There seem to be some flaws in your logic - if someone wants a Lisp developer already, those lisp developers will be able to charge a lot because there are relatively few of them. If you're saying "Would someone quote for a project, suggest Lisp, and then charge a lot" then, no, they'd charge whatever they thought they could get for that project 21:05:03 Which would have to be competitive compared to other vendors who weren't using Lisp (in this scenario, the language chosen is irrelevant to the costing) 21:05:07 <_3b> there is also the supply of/demand for lisp jobs affecting price as well, not just suuply/demand for lisp code 21:05:38 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:05:42 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA8EC9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:42 *_3b* for example would charge more for work in annoying languages 21:06:00 <_3b> (same as for work involving wearing a suit, or working fixed hours, etc) 21:06:05 Likewise. I charge a PHP premium :) 21:06:31 *p_l* would require less money for coding COBOL than PHP 21:06:47 T1750: there are probably many hobbyist Lisp developers who would love to be paid to work in Lisp, myself included. However, affirmed Lisp professionals can charge a lot because there are few of them. 21:07:23 However, even those that have an occassion to use Lisp for work have to deal with questions like "who will maintain it after me" 21:08:08 thats the thing, im trying to get these projects started and my brain is screaming at me three things "JAVA!" cheap drones, slot in and out, pay a serious guy to make the tests which glue it together" and it's a strategy. another is screaming at me "python!" theres a zillion libraries for it, coders are 2 a penny, i can even do it myself and then theres... lisp... lisp is a dead language, so why's the room so full? looks like lots of people want to work on 21:08:10 lisp... committed people who love what they do = win 21:08:43 astalla: so long as there is one master guru who can make the tests to glue it together any lang can be used 21:09:07 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-76-59.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:08 that's what I'm now pondering, since I've found that I might get a job making a sort-of ERP tool. The company doesn't have deep pockets and they don't have anyone skilled in programming, they would have to either track me down or rewrite it if they needed to change anything 21:09:16 Well it's obviously not a dead language - just seemingly a very underappreciated one (I speak as someone who had never even considered Lisp until 4 hours ago when the #emacs guys sent me to some Paul Graham links, and now I want to learn a lot more) 21:09:16 you can always use any language you want. It's a matter of trade-offs. 21:09:48 TomJ: I recommend you don't read his books though, when it comes to *learning* lisp 21:10:02 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:10:17 p_l: Right, OK, thanks. I'm starting with PCL. I was already told not to touch On Lisp until much later 21:10:34 If you use Java/python/.net you get lots of libraries and mature tools. With Lisp you get a really versatile language, but less tools and libraries. 21:10:44 T1750: right now, I'm also considering a startup that uses CL for backend, in similar way as Google uses Scheme in their App Inventor 21:10:44 (though more than people usually think). 21:11:44 especially since I find that I'll have to make my own web framework anyway 21:12:09 p_l: may I ask you why you have to? 21:12:10 astalla: "they call that agile if you wear convess trainers" 21:12:28 ikki [~ikki@189.247.83.231] has joined #lisp 21:13:03 T1750: what does that mean? 21:13:27 astalla: the wide availiablily of libs + dynamically typed language = agile 21:13:48 p_l: which books? cuz i l learned lisp like 3 times but like everyone i never use i forget it :) 21:14:02 so where should i start, i just started downloading lispworks 21:14:09 Agile development to me always meant small teams, sprint/scrum type process, and was independent of any language (as I understood it) 21:14:24 TomJ: I agree 21:14:29 astalla: None of the frameworks around fit me 21:14:31 i looks at sbcl but them not bothering to make their default install build without errors scared me and i want compile to native :) 21:14:39 UCW's REST mode was the closest, I guess 21:15:03 p_l: that's obvious, I'm interested in why they don't, if you care to share 21:15:25 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 21:15:25 TomJ: It means all sorts of things, I but it's always ruby or python you hear with agile, it's PR anyway who cares 21:15:37 T1750: send an email to lispjobs when you have something concrete. That ought to be much more useful (in less time) than wondering out loud about some hypothetical situation. 21:16:04 T1750: well I think you're describing people who are misusing the term, making what is an actual thing into a meaningless marketing/PR buzzword 21:16:15 the standard pointy-haired-boss syndrome 21:17:00 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:17:47 pkhuong: i have some projects which are very probably going to go ahead, and the truth is i am very probably going to use python because i know it, so i can be the QA guy, but i just can't help thinking that say, one lisp guru mentoring a few newbies who love lisp could be more productive long term 21:17:58 astalla: weblocks is interesting but uses CPS and has issues regarding internal structure (view/widget dichotomy, unclear - to me - navigation and application structure), some just don't fit me or don't have enough docs to make look into it, like DWIM (though mine is similar, however dwim.hu doesn't encourage me) 21:18:34 I couldn't find any functioning docs on dwim at all. 21:18:54 -!- seidos [~kevin@cpe-76-168-0-89.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:18:59 p_l: ok, thanks :) 21:19:02 rlpowell: M-. is the dwim documentation standard :) 21:19:19 lol 21:19:39 -!- ionine_ [~ionine@ool-18b8992c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:19:59 I don't use emacs so I don't get it. 21:21:12 drafael [~tapio@ip-118-90-135-58.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:21:36 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:21:56 *T1750* used emacs for a few months, until they realised they were spending all their time making emacs scripts not real work 21:22:18 brb 21:23:17 rlpowell: M-. is a SLIME shortcut that jumps to definition :) 21:23:36 Ah. 21:23:40 -!- peterhil [peterhil@YYYMMMCDIX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:24:38 T1750: there are two of you there? :) 21:24:48 there are 1750 of them 21:24:53 hehe 21:28:50 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:33:34 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-211-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:35:48 asarch [~asarch@187.132.138.254] has joined #lisp 21:39:09 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:40:59 T1750: I've a real job for you, there's this heap of stone that need to be broken into sand by hand. 21:41:17 Anything done with a computer is not real work. It's telling the computer how to do the real work. 21:42:04 T1750: hurry up to do this real job, soon enough, there will be robots, and even breaking stone won't be able to be done as real job, but only as orders given to a robot/computer. 21:46:56 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:39 Joreji [~thomas@86-129.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:51:44 peterhil [peterhil@YYKMMMCCLV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:51:57 agvar [~michael@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:41 pjb: i care nothing for the economy or "real jobs" further than it's the current standard medium of human co-operation and competition :) 21:54:03 lisp newbie... in the emacs repl editor, if I am in lisp-mode, the interactive env is not working... if i type (+ 1 2) , , nothing happens 21:54:32 in slime-mode it's fine, and after i hit enter, it prints 3 on the screen 21:54:40 what's "emacs repl editor"? 21:54:47 pjb: and i enjoy breaking stones :D 21:55:02 stassats: it means read evaluate print loop 21:55:11 you put something in, it evaluates it as lisp 21:55:16 prints the result, then does it again 21:55:23 read print eval 21:55:24 -!- drafael [~tapio@ip-118-90-135-58.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:51 i'm not asking what's REPL, i'm asking what's "emacs repl editor" 21:56:20 stassats: write stuff in emacs, execute it as LISP REPL 21:56:22 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:56:28 emacs editor running repl 21:57:04 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:57:14 *T1750* re-writes emacs in python 21:58:00 agvar: you described your problem not in the common terms, so i can't understand 21:58:00 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:58:45 in M-x lisp-mode 21:58:47 agvar: so you need to describe what you're doing, what you're getting, and what you're expecting 21:58:59 repl is not printing 21:59:42 my memory of lisp is a little hazy but from what i recall of emacs you didn't normally do a lot of REPL you made buffers and executed them 22:00:08 agvar: why are you doing M-x lisp-mode? 22:00:40 i am a newbie... i saw some article, and did what it said... 22:01:01 the solution is: don't do this, read your article more carefully 22:01:29 meaning don't do M-x lisp-mode while in the REPL 22:01:30 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@c-24-20-94-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:38 because it will indeed break it 22:02:53 and you hardly ever need to do M-x lisp-mode anywhere, since *.lisp files are set to enable lisp-mode automatically 22:03:18 got it, thanks 22:03:26 -!- astalla [~astalla@93-36-227-82.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 22:03:42 agvar: and what article are you reading? 22:03:52 http://osix.net/modules/article/?id=912 22:04:00 If you want Emacs to automatically do lisp highlighting, then name the 22:04:00 file with a .lisp extension. Or name it anything you want, and do the 22:04:01 following M-x and type `slime-mode' M-x and type `lisp-mode'. 22:05:02 So, an SBCL question. What am I supposed to do with this from the backtrace: 0: ((LAMBDA (SB-PCL::.ARG0. SB-PCL::.ARG1. SB-PCL::.ARG2.)) # #)[:EXTERNAL] 22:05:09 That is, how do I figure out what line of my code that is? 22:05:23 The actual complaint is "invalid number of arguments: 2", which is no more helpful. 22:05:46 agvar: that's right, though you only need M-x lisp-mode 22:06:08 iirc when i used SBCL with SLIME the help system didn't work properly either 22:06:15 and CLISP was much more instructive 22:06:19 and REPL is not a source file, that's why it breaks it 22:06:28 <_3b`> rlpowell: if you compiled with high enough debug settings, just hit v on that frame 22:06:46 <_3b`> rlpowell: sounds like you actually want the next frame down though, i think that is part of CLOS internals 22:07:19 protip: to compile with high debug settings use C-u C-c C-k 22:08:04 <_3b`> (this all assumes SLIME of course) 22:08:41 I'm very much not in SLIME. 22:08:45 all sane people use slime anyway 22:08:47 <_3b`> well, except the part about the next frame probably being more interesting 22:09:07 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:09:07 *T1750* made emacs work like textmate then went back to vim 22:09:09 haha 22:09:33 *T1750* wonders if he is going to get banned soon :) 22:09:35 rlpowell: well, then your first step should be to install it ... debugging is a lot nicer in slime than at the repl 22:10:19 I've been using vim for over a decade; re-learning emacs would almost certainly take more time than any savings SLIME might bring, since I don't code in LISP every day, or even close to it. 22:10:31 mister_m [~matthew@c-71-201-6-9.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:47 that's irrelevant 22:11:07 <_3b`> yeah, you wouldn't avoid GDB because you use vim, right? 22:11:12 who said anything about learning emacs? 22:11:13 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:11:29 <_3b`> (you can also try the various vim lisp addons, and see if any of those have useful debuggers) 22:11:47 maybe that's way you don't use L_isp_ everyday, because it's not comfortable 22:11:48 I'd have to get used to emacs movement again, for starters; that alone would take me a few days. 22:11:54 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:12:09 No, I don't use LISP every day because it's not what I do for a living and I have limited free time. 22:12:16 a few days? to learn to use the slime repl and debugger? 22:12:24 <_3b`> you can't use arrow keys or a mouse? 22:12:31 *sigh* 22:12:32 i think it would take a matter of minutes 22:12:38 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 22:12:50 Why is it that more than half the time I ask a question here, I get yeled at over my choice of tools? 22:13:06 'i know how to use a hammer... so i can't take the time to learn to use a saw!' 22:13:09 It takes me a long time to get used to new movement keys, OK? This came up when I learned dvorak. I have a very clear idea of how long it takes. 22:13:10 because your choice is wrong! 22:13:21 rlpowell, aspergers 22:13:25 <_3b`> the vim part is ok... the no debugger part is less OK 22:13:32 mister_m: Heh. 22:13:40 really... i how much movement does one do in a debugger? 22:13:44 So there's no actual way to do what I want from the SBCL repl? 22:13:53 drewc: Point. 22:14:02 <_3b`> you could probably do whatever it is slime does 22:14:33 <_3b`> try source 0 22:14:36 rlpowell: sbcl's debugger has defaults that work very well for slime; not so much for humans (source locations aren't very human-readable, anyway) 22:14:41 <_3b`> or source 1 22:14:45 # has no debug-block information. 22:14:56 <_3b`> (or help. which is where i got that idea) 22:15:11 _3b`: Yeah, that's where I looked; source seemed unhelpful. 22:15:12 rlpowell: Can you start by reasoning from the previous frame? 22:15:16 rlpowell: that one won't. Like _3b` said, it's a CLOS internal function; you want to go back a bit. 22:15:35 *nyef* really doesn't want to start getting into the SBCL debugging disaster yet. 22:16:01 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 22:16:04 # has no debug-block information. -- which is a function of mine, that is fairly large. 22:16:24 THere's nothing between the two. 22:16:24 rlpowell: compile with a higher debug level. 22:16:29 pkhuong: How? 22:16:30 <_3b`> well, recompile that function with higher debug and try again, if you can't fid it from the args passed to frame 1 22:16:45 <_3b`> declare or declaim (optimize debug) 22:16:57 or restrict-compiler-policy 22:16:57 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Debugger-Policy-Control.html -- that? 22:17:03 pkhuong: i think i will somewhat take your advice, i will get my big project im going for and i'll do it in python which makes me sad, then i'll spend a week teaching myself enough lisp to QA and get some small jobs where i can get junior guys who just love lisp and who will probably turn out to be much smarter than me with it it, then when i got small projects with lisp go for major ones 22:17:04 Got it, thanks! 22:18:02 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 22:18:37 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:18:46 T1750: a weak?! 22:18:55 s/ea/ee/ 22:19:04 small, simple projects :) 22:19:06 web shops 22:19:13 this sort of stuff 22:19:43 Hah! THat's perfect; thank you all. 22:19:48 and i'm not completely lisp naieve i did know it before, it's disused knowledge 22:19:51 (and: yes, I'll see about trying SLIME at some point) 22:19:58 so i will pick it up a lot faster than a complete newbie 22:20:08 9 years instead of 10? 22:20:45 i didn't say i wanted to be the QA guy on a LISP project that's running the london stock exchange ;) 22:21:03 i don't want to be the QA guy in the end at all finally 22:23:10 *T1750* learned from emacs that lisp is a beautiful language. it's suffering from being fractured 22:23:59 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932f95c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:24:09 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:33 and emacs lisp is the ugliest lisp 22:24:48 i was in awe of it 22:25:48 it was... well ruby++ where ++ means better better not add huge amounts of stuff to plus it out that is horrible to work with 22:26:44 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:27:32 abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:46 that's it's curse too though i thought why it became so fractured 22:27:54 you can make your own DSL so easy 22:28:01 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.135.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:28:07 Matt_S_G [~Matt@77.31.94.65] has joined #lisp 22:28:08 then you're not doing the same thing as everyone else anymore 22:28:25 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:29:22 i heard all the jokes about brackets but it was practically writing in english 22:30:30 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 22:32:10 it needs a dictator :) im sure HRH stallman would kill me for saying something like that but at least it neads kingdom dictators 22:32:30 too many ways to do it isn't always good 22:34:12 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:37 Recur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:49 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:57 well, one day i hope i can have my lisp kingdom, and it won't be me who built the castles and did the logistics but far better people 22:35:03 ok enough OTT ramble 22:35:19 i want to put LISP into real world projects summary and last comment on issue 22:37:40 T1750, start with s/LISP/Lisp/ event better /Common Lisp/ :-P (-; 22:37:44 even* 22:39:31 -!- Recur51v3 [~Recursive@209-20-84-78.slicehost.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:39:41 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 22:41:07 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:41:15 i got something of a plan the waffle in here helped it germinate 22:47:30 wat 22:48:18 i like clojure's POA 22:48:21 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:48:31 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:50:15 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:52:25 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55:53 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:57:02 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:32 agvar: what is POA? 23:01:37 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:01:45 plan of attack 23:01:57 ah thanks 23:02:03 specifically, running on the JVM 23:02:24 why preferable to compiling to native? 23:02:26 yeah instantly gives it huge compatibility 23:02:34 a .net version would be nice.. 23:02:36 ahh i getcha 23:03:36 there is a clojure for .NET 23:03:41 not sure how stable it is though 23:03:54 lisp got a good web scraping library? 23:04:07 T1750: Closure HTML is a good building block 23:04:09 *T1750* always ends up writing his own cuz he gets annoyed with other peop 23:04:12 les 23:05:01 On the subject of Ruby from earlier - I never quite got the point of it myself. It seemed to have the same basic goals and results as Python, without being nearly so tidy. But I've never studied it in huge detail. 23:05:22 TomJ: "matz described it as lisp for normal people" 23:05:24 fatelang [~user@24-217-193-233.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:05:37 -!- Matt_S_G [~Matt@77.31.94.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:06:09 T1750: which would imply that it does have some major differences in functionality to Python? I know that closures and lambda, for example, in Python are not as complete as they could be - I haven't used them myself yet so don't know all the details 23:06:36 TomJ: Python is has and continues to steal all the good things ruby has it doesn't 23:06:40 -!- mister_m [~matthew@c-71-201-6-9.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:06:45 TomJ: I have quite an opposite impression. Same basic goals as Python, but including some perl-foo and being so much more tidy. 23:06:47 which is why ruby seems to be sliding... 23:06:58 Maybe you could discuss that somewhere else. 23:06:59 T1750: so basically Lisp minus all of the cool stuff that's too hard for "normal people" to learn? 23:07:11 Python is full of old-time mistakes for me  being cleaned up only in the 3.x series... 23:07:20 I have a macro of the form (mac symbol-or-something symbol), when passed two symbols it works. But if I have (mac1 (mac1 sym1 sym2) sym3), I want mac1 to deal with the runtime value of mac2's expansion. How? 23:07:31 python is a messy practical language like c 23:08:14 fatelang: (defmacro mac (sym-or-something symbol) `(let ((s1 ,sym-or-something) (s2 ,symbol)) ...)))))) with suitable gensyms instead of s1 and s2 23:08:25 antoszka: right OK, interesting. You're right there's a lot of crud in Python. But, for me, at least coming from Perl, C#, Java, C, etc, everything about it seemed clean - starting with significant whitespace and pseudo-code like syntax, to the awesome reflection, first class functions, OOP from the start, etc 23:08:35 Maybe Ruby does all that too besides the whitespace? 23:08:43 Toekutr: it does dsls, closues, that sort of thing brought it mainstream 23:09:16 TomJ: clean and "significant whitespace" are the last things in the universe that I'd be willing to put one next to another :) 23:09:33 TomJ: But I guess it's a matter of taste. 23:09:36 Or something. 23:09:37 significant whitespace is a bit like brackets 23:09:44 matter of taste 23:10:02 antoszka: oh ok, why? I love that a) it enforces indentation so you know all code is properly indented and b) much less punctuation-soup as a result 23:10:11 and like the brackets you don't notice after a while 23:10:31 Unless you mix spaces and tabs. In which case you cannot tell the indentation level unless you do a hexdump of your code ;) 23:10:43 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:10:48 tabs are spaces in python period 23:10:54 Xach: That part I think I have with a working symbolp test for the symbol case. It's the negative case that's problematic. Or are you saying the let would cause it to eval? 23:10:56 Or not. 23:11:06 antoszka: the let would cause it to eval. 23:11:07 python will parse tabs :) but nobody writes it like that 23:11:08 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 23:11:08 sorr, 23:11:13 it's "against the rules" :) 23:11:13 fatelang: the let would cause it to eval. 23:11:14 antoszka: well yeah, true. I guess it can bite you sometimes. But I've either used a full IDE, or else Vim, but in both cases it took care of indentation (using spaces) for me and I've never had a problem 23:11:35 Xach, thanks. I'll give it a try. 23:11:53 I work with a lot of junior coders who somehow think indenting code is a waste of time, so I enjoy using a language that doesn't let them :) 23:11:56 TomJ: I just think it's conceptually extremely unclean  I know most editors will try and take care of it properly. Be it vim, emacs or some bigger GUI stuff. 23:12:30 TomJ: hahaha strange atttitude of them and i like pythons enforced whitespace 90% of the time 23:12:54 sometimes it's annoying and you end up with ugly brackets everywhere but well... ugly brackets... 23:13:20 TomJ: And forcing indentation won't make someone a good and cultured code writer IMO. Like putting a metronome next to a person won't make him/her a good musician with a good feeling of time. :) 23:13:28 It's a wasted efford basically. 23:13:32 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-2982.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:13:34 antoszka: fair enough. I must admit when I first read it I thought "WTF? No language is going to tell ME how to indent." But then in using it I realised I always indented correctly anyway, or nearly always, so it just seemed transparent - but I didnt have to bother with { } etc, and if I did make mistake, it told me straight away. 23:13:40 I've seen plenty of ugly Python code. 23:13:45 Pasta-style. 23:13:53 Huge blocks of basic like, imperative commands. 23:14:08 *T1750* will when writing stuff for his eyes only put vim in paste mode on occasion :) 23:14:37 abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:37 TomJ: So ruby seems to be mostly like that, except you just add end at the end. 23:14:51 TomJ: And skip the superfluous :. 23:14:58 antoszka: Yeah that's all true. I just find that at least it's easier to help them improve when I don't have to spend the first hour indenting their code for them :) 23:15:04 If you'd like to talk about ruby and python, please do it somewhere ele. 23:15:04 (which really isn't necessary in Python) 23:15:12 TomJ: True. 23:15:16 Xach: OK. 23:15:59 ok we gotta stop the non lisp apparently 23:17:03 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e50a2-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:17:29 I need to take my dog for a walk in (properly indented) whitespace anyway. 23:17:34 one OT ruby comment, i think it awakened young peoples interest in lisp 23:17:49 they realised all the cool things it did where they came from and went looking 23:18:18 My road to interest in Lisp was rather via Tcl. 23:18:30 But reading about Ruby helped as well, probably. 23:18:33 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:25 AnimaL__ [~a@ip-100-74.zb.lv] has joined #lisp 23:20:31 *AnimaL__* slaps [df], _3b, _3b`, ``Erik, abeaumont, abend, absalom, ace4016, acieroid, adeht, Adlai, Adrinael, agvar, aidalgol, Aisling, amaron, Anarch, andreer, AntiSpamMeta, antoszka, aoh, araujo, arbscht, asarch, ASau, ASau``, Avisch, Axioplase_, az, beach, Beetny, benny, bfein, bgs100, billstclair, bobbysmith007, bougyman, boyscared, bozhidar`, BrianRice, burton, bzzbzz, carlocci, carrl, cataska, ccl-logbot, chiiph, christoph_debian, chrnybo, clog, clop, cmm, 23:20:34 -!- AnimaL__ [~a@ip-100-74.zb.lv] has left #lisp 23:20:46 lol 23:21:13 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e3145-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 23:21:33 Well, he was singular in his goal. 23:21:52 If incomplete. 23:22:03 Somewhat. 23:24:01 i am young... learned plt scheme in college, it seemed great, but not mainstream enough to get a job knowing well. 23:24:20 please, don't wake kibo. 23:24:21 *knowing it well 23:24:29 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-207-131.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:38 gigamonkey: *the* gigamonkey? 23:25:44 does anyone use lisp professionally here, on a daily basis? 23:26:30 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:26:34 TomJ: yep. 23:26:41 ? 23:26:57 abugosh [~Adium@pool-71-166-113-249.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:03 Excellent. Just started reading his book (which is very good indeed) 23:27:49 agvar: what does the answer mean to you? 23:30:15 there are lisp jobs out there, I might have one today if I'd been willing to move to another city 23:30:32 adeht: nothing really... but i am looking to find something where i can practice lisp on a daily basis 23:30:44 There are a lot more lisp jobs than lisp qualified coder 23:30:57 it like cobol, everyone want the hottest new thing 23:31:08 but in trailing edge techology there is big money 23:31:29 true, I'm far from qualified; they've have had to train me up 23:32:17 nyef: Around? 23:32:34 recently, i've seen a lot of interest in clojure, haskel, erlang... a lot of concurrency and cloud computing 23:32:34 rtoym: T 23:32:38 agvar: it's easier to do Lisp every day if you do it for pleasure (and/or business) 23:33:05 -!- dfox [~dfox@r6l51.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:33:14 that cloud computing hyperbole really annoys me, everyone on the net is suddenly "in the cloud" 23:33:37 it's a couple of replicated servers, oh a cloud 23:33:47 haha, i know what you mean, i am the same with "augmented reality" 23:33:52 miasma computing 23:34:12 *T1750* loooks for an edit he made to wikipedia a long time ago 23:34:13 agvar: that's been around for millenia. Just before it was always organic or chemical :) 23:34:22 it was a "vandalism" so ill be a while brb 23:35:02 TomJ: I see what you did there. 23:35:12 nyef: Another question about GC. When gc happens, the stack is scrubbed, so things outside the current stack pointer are cleared? 23:35:44 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:45 Yes. 23:36:12 Modulo possible differences with x86oid conservatism if you have that. 23:36:21 the inventor of PCR which amplifies DNA and is a cornerstone of the modern genetics industry, said he came up with the idea while his reality was augmented 23:37:10 Ok. So a function allocate some stack, and puts things there. Function returns, and another function allocates some space. So there could be random objects on the stack that would prevent GC from collecting them, until the function returns. 23:37:32 nyef: Yes, x86 is conservative still. 23:38:00 Right, that's the basics of stack conservatism. 23:38:28 spacebat: Funny, the story I heard was that he was driving a car at the time... 23:38:49 perhaps his reality was augmented by windscreen wipers 23:39:33 They can be mesmeric. 23:39:41 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:39:41 nyef: Umm, is this stack conservatism different from or the same as conservatism because you can't tell if some random value on the stack is a pointer or not? (Unlike sparc/ppc where the stack always contains boxed objects.) 23:40:15 It's different: You can always tell when a given value is a pointer, just not which values are still "live". 23:41:02 x86oid conservatism you just can't tell, so you can't rewrite any of the "pointers", and they might not be boxed pointers, et cetera. 23:42:10 Ok. 23:44:44 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-120-72.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: REALITY IS TEARING ITSELF ASUNDER, BUT I MUST RACE] 23:45:26 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:46:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:46:32 how do you use this thing http://wikipedia.ramselehof.de/wikiblame.php?lang=en&article=Cloud_computing 23:47:29 hi, ..hm.. someone mentioned a way to trace references to objects (sbcl) a few days ago; attila had something? a lib or patch for sbcl? 23:49:05 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 23:49:57 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75732c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:08 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:50:29 Hi TomJ 23:50:41 Glad you're enjoying the book. 23:54:51 gigamonkey: Very much so. Thanks a lot! 23:55:17 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:55:22 (Doubly so for giving it away for free) 23:55:58 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-68-86.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:35 I'll buy the ebook too at some point :) 23:58:13 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-34-80.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:59:30 Kenjin [~josesanto@89-181-99-107.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp