00:00:53 meh 00:02:02 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:20 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.94] has joined #lisp 00:02:44 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:25 LTK supports printing postscript hardcopy of screen, noice 00:09:58 I wonder how LTK compares to STk (a Tk binding for scheme that is integrated pretty nicely with scheme). 00:12:18 cg uses gtk on linux and mac 00:12:34 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.86.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:13:25 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:13:33 so, what's #lisp's opinion of UnCommon Web? 00:13:51 <_3b`> various parts of #lisp develop it or forks of it 00:14:40 <_3b`> seems like the popular thing to do is just write your own framework and use that though 00:14:54 heh 00:15:28 that theme pervades lisp in general 00:15:52 *_3b`* tries to avoid it, doesn't always succeed 00:16:33 sometimes you end up with a cancerous beast 00:18:32 i dunno why i eat at that stupid mexican restaurant 00:19:33 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:19 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:20:28 -!- homie- [~user@xdsl-87-79-165-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:21:09 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:23:20 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-165-25.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:23:37 asarch [~asarch@187.132.134.145] has joined #lisp 00:27:03 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:05 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has joined #lisp 00:28:13 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.179.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:28:54 X-Scale [email@89-180-212-78.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 00:31:05 -!- niels_ [~chatzilla@ip72-218-209-107.hr.hr.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.4/20100611134546]] 00:36:25 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: astoon] 00:36:43 At least we just rewrite the web frameworks constantly, and not the entire system like the forth people do. 00:37:35 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:39:37 -!- dfox [~dfox@r11mg201.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:39:48 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-144-13-253.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 00:40:01 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:18 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:46:18 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:48:10 but it would be 10 times better if we just rewrote everything from the kernel and up 00:48:41 oconnore [~eric@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 00:51:20 future generations will curse our names 00:52:34 *p_l* is even looking into making commercial framework! :P 00:53:13 if I have a loop that's using (read-char), how do I send end of input with slime? my mind has went nil 00:53:55 seems like C-c C-d works on some modes, but that's a doc command in slime 00:56:01 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-8-216.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:57:29 C-c C-c will interrupt the REPL. 00:57:48 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-30-152.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:58:12 pkhuong: nod, that's how I've been killing it 00:58:39 I know I've done this before, just can't recall how =/ 00:59:55 bytecolor: C-q C-d? 00:59:55 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:00:05 not sure, but i'd try it. 01:00:08 Dodek: tried that too ;) 01:00:56 heh, no idea then. 01:02:11 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:48 -!- kenpp` [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:04:56 Apropos for EOF? 01:06:37 I've got (read-char *standard-input* nil :tok-eof), when end of input is read, it should return :tok-eof, correct? And I should be able to test for that. Just want to make sure I have that much correct. 01:06:55 <_3b`> C-u RET ? 01:07:17 _3b`: that's it me thinks 01:07:53 ... No size function for... fincallable_instance_tramp()?!? 01:11:20 -!- gko [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:12:12 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B97A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:12:24 abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:48 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.134.145] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:13:54 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:56 thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:06 -!- thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:16:07 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 01:18:25 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:21:14 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:34 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:26:29 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:20 -!- scott_ [~scott@botters/staff/tsion] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33:18 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:24 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 01:37:40 evening 01:40:49 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:41:01 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:44:46 -!- sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:45:36 morning! 01:45:47 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 01:46:30 galabad [~root@cpe-76-189-138-66.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:34 peterhil [peterhil@YYCDXCII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 01:47:02 Hello slyrus_. 01:47:59 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 01:52:22 http://omploader.org/vNHdrYg ..... ogg video of my lisp game expo entry opening movie :) 01:52:29 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.142.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:55:22 ... Of all the -stupid-... I have a "perfectly valid" boxed pointer that I'm trying to run through the sizetab to find out how large the object is... But there are at least two cases where the object turns out to have a simple-fun-header-widetag, which is deliberately set to size_lose. 01:57:02 i hate when that happens. 01:57:36 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:58:44 Okay, limiter added for > DYNAMIC_SPACE_START and < DYNAMIC_SPACE_END. Maybe -now- this bug will go away. 02:00:59 asarch [~asarch@187.132.134.145] has joined #lisp 02:03:30 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-hheymlbkmgclfiza] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:03:34 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-yccxrlflblolvmsn] has joined #lisp 02:09:39 -!- peterhil [peterhil@YYCDXCII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 02:14:43 nyef: can it be replaced with functions that report whether the pointer points to dynamic space? 02:15:32 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:15:52 Could, but I didn't see such a function handy. 02:16:30 nyef: for the future, I mean 02:16:45 I need to dig out lichtblau's patches and adapt them to 1.040 02:16:49 *1.0.40 02:18:15 Patches for what? 02:19:04 relocation and allocation 02:21:07 *nyef* sighs. 02:21:33 4f9a3590. Why is -that- failing now? 02:22:00 Actually, scratch that, I'm not up to dealing with this any more tonight. 02:22:14 nyef: I have a host that runs 1.0.18 because that was what compilated with relocation patches, since SBCL and grsec don't like each other 02:34:04 abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:13 -!- lolage` [~areyoufuc@cpc2-blfs1-0-0-cust267.belf.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:38:14 -!- mcc_ [~mike@ip68-104-164-151.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:38:35 dto: I'm only getting a "sorry we're still working on it" page 02:41:33 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:41:49 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:42:50 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:24 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-62-73-203.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:08 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-46-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:45:47 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:03 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:47:44 Right, I'm gone for the night. 02:47:50 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:56:27 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:56:30 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-141-180-34.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:57:23 ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 03:04:21 are there any masochists working on a ffi to llvm? 03:04:38 that would be frickin awsome 03:09:12 I remember of a discussion of ecl+llvm but have am not aware of a project or its status 03:09:25 s/have// 03:10:12 most probably ecl+clang more than native llvm 03:10:23 -!- rme [rme@clozure-F99A37CC.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:10:23 -!- rme [~rme@pool-68-238-7-51.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:11:05 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 03:13:05 bytecolor: llvm itself doesn't do anything for FFI 03:13:31 Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-148-31-40.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:38 as LLVM is more an equivalent (sorta) of CMU/SBCL Python 03:14:16 It is however possible to hook clang as a library, afaik, and it could be used to dump necessary information 03:14:32 p_l: I was looking at the llvm Kaliedoscope tut, just to learn a bit about operator precedence parsing, and started rewriting it in cl. 03:14:58 bytecolor: Might not be what you had in mind but... http://repo.or.cz/w/cl-llvm.git 03:15:03 bytecolor: btw, there's already cl-llvm 03:15:10 and sbcl-llvm 03:15:39 sbcl-llvm actually supports compilation of forms using llvm 03:16:15 (very limited, though) 03:17:14 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qydclhklushkbwee] has joined #lisp 03:17:30 well, I was looking for a backend for my general purpose parser written incl. 03:18:04 I could just emit lisp code. but llmv looks fun ;) 03:18:30 redline6561: I'll check that out, thanks 03:18:51 bytecolor: Sure. :) 03:21:52 -!- galabad [~root@cpe-76-189-138-66.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it.] 03:33:12 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:33:29 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.6] has joined #lisp 03:34:30 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34:36 -!- ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:35:42 -!- Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:36:19 Athas` [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 03:36:56 -!- Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:37:13 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-74-103-38-231.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:37:23 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:25 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:53:35 hello 03:53:53 -!- ost` is now known as ost 03:57:12 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:59:41 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:18 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:00:39 *fusss* just came back up after diving into SQLAlchemy, and now disbelieves the hype 04:01:39 seems like it optimizes for that 1% case; when the database is being created for the first time 04:06:10 Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:23 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:08:11 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-73.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:08:44 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:49 Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has joined #lisp 04:10:14 fusss: have you read the paper on UCL-GLORP? 04:10:14 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:10:16 acieroid [~acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 04:10:20 -!- soupdragon [~quantum@unaffiliated/fax] has quit [Quit: soupdragon] 04:10:44 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:15 fusss: have you read the paper on UCL-GLORP? (repost) 04:11:24 not ye 04:11:38 actually, i skimmed 04:11:43 should I 04:12:39 maybe, the code isn't available anyway 04:12:39 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14:44 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:07 *p_l* thinks he needs to update his fusss-watcher 04:15:23 heh 04:15:46 you drop in and drop out :D 04:17:37 Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:51 yeah, freenode doesn't seem to like me 04:18:03 i have 5 ssh sessions that are fine 04:20:15 fusss: ssh has some automagic reconnection code. 04:20:37 pkhuong: more like large timeout windows 04:21:11 p_l: it actually reimplements a connection protocol on top of tcp, really. 04:21:35 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 04:21:46 the timeout is long enough that your link gets back on and TCP resynces - at least that was my experience, haven't noticed extra SYN/ACK exchanges 04:21:57 alright 04:22:46 *fusss* is currently fascinated by other stuff 04:22:53 p_l: it works clients suspending to ram and reconnecting (: 04:22:53 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:22:56 *with 04:23:23 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:46 the whole of Rails is an homage to a Martin Fowler book 04:24:43 and fwiw, weblocks is unnecessarily more high level than stock rails 04:25:24 TR2N` [email@89.180.212.78] has joined #lisp 04:25:30 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:27:19 -!- X-Scale [email@89-180-212-78.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:27:40 bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:40 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 04:29:15 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:29:55 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.134.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:34:45 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-49-76.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: G'bye] 04:36:10 rkm1000 [62659c44@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.101.156.68] has joined #lisp 04:36:10 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:36:45 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:58 bah, gotta end this connection misery 04:37:00 nite all 04:37:00 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:41:50 asarch [~asarch@187.132.134.145] has joined #lisp 04:41:54 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 04:44:48 -!- bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:12 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:51:41 -!- rkm1000 [62659c44@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.101.156.68] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:51:59 rkm1000 [62659c44@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.101.156.68] has joined #lisp 04:55:36 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:55:53 acieroid [~acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 04:55:57 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 04:56:19 has anyone installed cl-llvm recently? Do I have to apply the patches to build cl-llvm.so, or are those only if I want to rebuild starting with swig output? 04:57:34 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:00:35 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-144-13-253.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:50 -!- Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:01:30 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:01:34 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 05:01:52 -!- Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:02:04 bytecolor: you can ask foom when he wakes up. 05:03:20 oh, he's the author no? 05:05:16 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 05:09:47 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:18:17 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 05:22:47 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:23:14 Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:28 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 05:24:04 Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has joined #lisp 05:24:24 acieroid [~acieroid@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 05:35:28 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 05:36:09 -!- ignis_ [~quassel@c-98-226-186-66.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:42:51 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:42:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:42:51 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:42:51 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:42:51 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-165-25.netcologne.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:42:52 -!- abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:42:52 -!- Intensity [gnjnSDjgDl@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:42:52 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:51 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:51 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-62-73-203.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:51 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:51 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-9-124.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:51 -!- benny [~user@i577A72A7.versanet.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:51 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:51 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.190] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:51 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:52 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:52 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:52 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:52 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:52 -!- Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:52 -!- inklesspen [~jon@inklesspen.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:46:52 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@67.207.145.149] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:53:24 ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 05:55:35 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 06:00:38 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:00:59 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.134.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:28 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:10:00 -!- rkm1000 [62659c44@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.101.156.68] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:10:52 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:19 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-44-82-249-193-94.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:14:28 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-134-6.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:15:42 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:16:46 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:10 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:23:47 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-52-82-65-85-197.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:18 Good morning everyone! 06:25:25 hi beach 06:28:46 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:40:45 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-52-82-65-85-197.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:49:19 kenpp` [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:53:03 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cpitnoqgvzmflbvb] has joined #lisp 06:53:05 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-134-6.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:53:56 aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has joined #lisp 06:55:06 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-93230.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 06:57:36 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:57:54 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:04:13 good morning 07:04:46 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-163-120.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:06:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:19:39 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:38 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 07:20:47 hello mvilleneuve 07:21:14 Are you impressed by recent SICL activity? :) 07:22:04 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 07:22:08 sicl? 07:22:41 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.212.78] has left #lisp 07:22:53 leo2007: crazy project: http://common-lisp.net/project/sicl 07:25:05 dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:25:52 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has joined #lisp 07:26:19 thanks. 07:31:43 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 07:32:44 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:34:16 -!- sad0ur [~sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:39:08 beach: it is more or less a new common lisp implementation? 07:42:47 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:43:20 leo2007: FSVO "new" (: 07:43:42 beach: progress! awesome! 07:43:57 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 07:43:57 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 07:43:57 abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has joined #lisp 07:43:57 Intensity [gnjnSDjgDl@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 07:43:57 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 07:44:18 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:44:33 -!- aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:44:33 aja_ [~aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:34 -!- aja_ [~aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 07:44:41 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-62-73-203.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-9-124.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 benny [~user@i577A72A7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.190] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 inklesspen [~jon@inklesspen.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:41 jrockway [~jrockway@67.207.145.149] has joined #lisp 07:46:38 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 07:46:56 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:48:17 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-9-124.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:48:46 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:49:47 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-9-124.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 07:49:47 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 07:49:47 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-62-73-203.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 07:50:55 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 07:50:56 leo2007: You could view it that way, but I prefer not to, because the probability is high that it won't ever happen. However, if you view it as highly-portable, high-performance, drop-in replacement for existing modules, then I might actually manage to get a module or two out the door. 07:52:44 antifuchs: Yeah, it suits my current work which gives me short intervals of free time, but no periods of several uninterrupted days of work. 07:54:31 antifuchs: I am pretty close to having a near-complete implementation of the conses dictionary. And some of the functions are already faster than the SBCL equivalent, even if compiled with speed 0 and debug 3. 07:56:07 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-224.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:43 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:01:08 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75514b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:46 beach: a lot of activity indeed! :) 08:09:25 hmm, it feels like Ubuntu 10.04 has a new implementation of Gnome that uses a particularly bad GC that generates long pauses. 08:09:38 zomgbie [~jesus@chello062178135013.2.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:12:01 revel0__ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:13:48 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 08:14:42 runnynoze [~UsedSockP@189.214.151.190.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 08:14:59 beach: nice! 08:15:20 (well, the conses dictionary, not the gnome thing) (: 08:15:51 does gnome/gtk do gc things at all? 08:15:52 -!- runnynoze is now known as CuMmYeYeZ 08:16:25 how many people use the lisp OS? 08:16:35 23.7 08:16:37 Is Lisp based out of San Fran like Google? 08:17:11 Except for the offices in Antarctica. 08:17:31 i have always wanted to be a lisping San Francisco treat! 08:17:32 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:17:33 DING 08:17:41 i sho lubs dat rica a roini 08:17:47 hello lispers 08:18:09 thith ith a thupport group 08:18:11 for lithpers 08:18:41 It includes a subgroup for brain-damaged people who can't spell -- that would be your demographic. 08:19:40 dialtone_ [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:40 -!- dialtone_ [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:19:40 dialtone_ [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 08:19:48 I've just published the first release of clonsigna (an imap client lib), if anyone want to give it a test, it would be great 08:19:49 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:20:02 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 08:21:54 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 08:22:01 good morning, CuMmYeYeZ 08:22:15 andreer [andreer@flode.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 08:22:49 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:22:52 good morning antifuchs 08:23:20 -!- dialtone_ [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:25 CuMmYeYeZ: so what have you been working on recently? 08:23:39 *Odin-* could've sworn he heard the sound of a bullet being chambered... 08:24:08 well i was wondering if lisp 08:24:18 could be used as a web design language 08:24:21 for the UMT website 08:24:38 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:38 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:24:39 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 08:24:40 UMT? 08:25:16 an organization that causes havoc on Digg, webforums, and sometimes IRC 08:25:23 Troles Unidos Mexicanos 08:25:57 you could definitely use lisp for that. there's a couple of very nice web service abstraction libraries around 08:26:32 we want to build something that will make Last Measure look like pussy work 08:26:45 like a nice sweet dripping panocha 08:26:50 mmmmmm 08:27:02 one with that yellowish gonnorheal pus 08:27:34 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 08:29:44 it doesn't seem like a full commitment is what you are thinking of 08:29:49 you could get this from any other language 08:30:33 but I want to proudly say that it came from LISP 08:30:36 on the website 08:30:39 ;) 08:30:43 give you guys some prestige 08:30:50 Oh dear. 08:30:54 Eh, who needs prestige? 08:31:08 i want this one to not only hijack the browser 08:31:17 but make it to where anybody who hasn't updated their antivirus 08:31:23 will have their desktop background 08:31:33 changed to a woman getting anally fisted by a cat 08:31:35 :) 08:31:52 That's really not a function of the programming language. 08:31:53 every week the code will be modified to get around the antivirus update 08:32:05 i just want to say that it came from linux 08:32:12 i have an indian firm on retainer 08:32:17 ready to do my bidding 08:32:20 CuMmYeYeZ: I suggest you go troll in some other channel. 08:32:45 beach: Oh, hush, it's not like there's anything else going on. ;p 08:32:47 lisp programmers must be some sort of negrolovers 08:33:00 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:33:02 the ought to join c h i m pout 08:33:03 -!- andreer changed the topic of #lisp to: /ignore CuMmYeYeZ 08:33:06 -!- CuMmYeYeZ [~foobar@baker.boinkor.net] has been kicked from #lisp by antifuchs (kindly fuck off) 08:33:12 CuMmYeYeZ [~UsedSockP@189.214.151.190.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 08:33:14 sorry 08:33:21 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 08:33:22 c h i m p o u t . c o m / forum 08:33:26 join today 08:33:28 -!- antifuchs has set mode +b *!UsedSockP@* 08:33:31 if you can't stand blacks 08:33:41 gotta love dem netsplits 08:33:42 jajajaja 08:33:44 -!- antifuchs has set mode +b CuMmYeYeZ!*@* 08:33:46 (damn) 08:33:59 -!- CuMmYeYeZ [~UsedSockP@189.214.151.190.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has left #lisp 08:34:03 oops. didn't mean to change the topic 08:34:12 -!- antifuchs has set mode -b CuMmYeYeZ!*@* 08:34:15 wtf 08:34:18 CuMmYeYeZ [~UsedSockP@189.214.151.190.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 08:34:26 chinguen a sus madres 08:34:29 -!- antifuchs has set mode +b ~*!*@189.214.151.190.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx 08:34:34 -!- CuMmYeYeZ [~UsedSockP@189.214.151.190.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has left #lisp 08:34:37 CuMmYeYeZ [~UsedSockP@189.214.151.190.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 08:34:43 soy el dueño de ustedes 08:34:44 jajaja 08:34:53 no pueden vencer a los troles unidos mexicanos 08:34:59 Mexicanos al grito de guerra 08:35:07 el acero aprestad y bridon 08:35:15 y retiembla en su centro la tierra 08:35:19 -!- antifuchs has set mode +b *!*@189.214.151.190.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx 08:35:26 -!- CuMmYeYeZ [~UsedSockP@189.214.151.190.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has left #lisp 08:35:47 (thanks freenode, for useful hostmask documentation) 08:36:25 I thought that was a bot, but apparently it was stupider than a bot. 08:36:33 oh definitely (: 08:36:34 "Oh, aren't you just using your client's /ban command?" 08:37:16 Odin-: I am indeed using that, but this client defaults to using the argument given to /ban verbatim 08:37:22 which results in a nickname ban. 08:37:27 Ah. 08:37:41 Do note the quote marks, though. 08:37:50 yeah 08:37:52 My client doesn't even *have* /ban. :p 08:38:04 -!- antifuchs changed the topic of #lisp to: Topic: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: GNU CLISP 2.49, SBCL 1.0.40 08:38:09 -!- antifuchs changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: GNU CLISP 2.49, SBCL 1.0.40 08:38:15 (today, in failure news) 08:40:30 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:44:02 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:45:58 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:46:31 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:31 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:46:31 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 08:46:58 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:52:13 -!- kenpp` [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:54:33 -!- revel0__ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:08 fiveop [~fiveop@g229175143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:26 xan_ [~xan@109.144.253.211] has joined #lisp 09:00:34 -!- pkhuong 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[~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:16:15 dialtone_ [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:15 -!- dialtone_ [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:16:15 dialtone_ [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 10:18:25 peterhil [peterhil@ZYKMMMCCCXXII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 10:19:06 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:19:45 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-163-120.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:27:59 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 10:28:48 p_l: I have to thank you (and probably gigamonkey as well) for recommending the Practical Common Lisp book! The code style of the book is really cool, and it gets straight into doing something interesting. 10:29:26 I was dissapointed by Practical Clojure by comparison 10:31:24 thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:31:33 -!- thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:31:34 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 10:32:36 peterhil: well, you can thank gigamonkey for writing it :) 10:33:41 is there anybody who want to give a test to clonsigna ? 10:34:44 relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 10:35:12 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 10:35:19 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:38:40 Komi [Komi@62.32.146.143] has joined #lisp 10:38:56 rsynnott: I thought so. 10:39:21 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 10:40:34 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:59 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:41:32 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:45:42 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 10:55:53 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 10:57:46 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 11:00:05 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:03:29 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:04:20 OliverUv [~oliver@c-f685e555.024-50-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:05:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:05:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello062178135013.2.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:05:45 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.190] has joined #lisp 11:06:38 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:07:55 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 11:08:03 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-93-81.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:12:50 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-193-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 11:16:11 argiopeweb_ [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has joined #lisp 11:18:12 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75514b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:18:56 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@66.42.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:23:59 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 11:27:15 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:15 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:27:15 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 11:27:25 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 11:30:30 I am trying to build SBCL 1.0.40 with 1.038 on Ubuntu x64 and get dropped in the ldb shell 11:30:55 -!- dialtone_ [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:31:06 I have tried to run ./clean and then make again, but the same thing happens 11:33:07 blandest: you'll have to give us a little more information to even hope for help here. 11:33:26 pkhuong: I know... building SBCL again 11:33:39 it will take a while to get the error again 11:34:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:38:15 Is there any way to return the length in pixels of a string composed of characters of a proportional spaced font? 11:39:07 One of Xach's library has stuff like that. 11:41:11 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:44 to reload a system, is ,load-system XXX in SLIME sufficient? 11:42:40 sellout [~greg@212.234.38.214] has joined #lisp 11:42:53 no, there's reload-system 11:43:09 tcr: thanks. 11:43:45 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:47 pkhuong, great to hear. I'll see if I can find it. 11:44:02 dfox [~dfox@r3ah44.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 11:44:21 11:44:40 lat: cl-vectors (I think it was called) plus zpb-ttf does that, I think. 11:45:00 cl-vectors is the library responsible for the rasterization (which you need for the pixel count) 11:45:25 I get this when I do a "$ sh make.sh": http://paste.lisp.org/display/112388 11:46:29 I have built SBCL before and it worked 11:49:52 tcr: there seems to be problems with ,reload-system when swank is running on a remote server. 11:56:00 no idea 11:56:45 leo2007: that will call asdf:oos on the remote server, and will compile and load the source files from there. 11:57:05 if you're modifying source code locally, that won't affect the remote server at all, obvsly (: 11:58:28 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:00:48 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:01:25 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-28-82-250-188-152.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:47 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-80-28.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:02:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:13:49 antifuchs: You don't need rasterization for the pixel count. 12:14:02 Xach: oh, then I misremembered 12:14:43 Glyphs are laid out in an em-square with a specified font-units-per-em, and you can scale from there. 12:14:53 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 12:15:13 zpb-ttf will do some basic left-to-right layout and give you the raw numbers. 12:15:35 O_o 12:16:30 Is it just me, or are most of the pieces needed for running a more-or-less all-Lisp system there, you'd just have to connect them? (Which is a huge hassle and not worth it, I know.) 12:17:17 Odin-: seems like there are a lot of 85% pieces and a small number of 97% pieces 12:17:49 Xach: 85% meaning "cover 85% of what you need" or "do 85% of the work they'd need to"? 12:18:14 what's the difference? (: 12:18:25 Erh. Yeas. 12:18:29 -a 12:19:01 fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has joined #lisp 12:19:42 Meaning "pieces of a system that gives you 85% of what an all-Lisp system would need to do" or "pieces that do 85% of what they'd need to, in order to fit into an all-Lisp system"? 12:19:49 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:49 If that's any clearer. Which I doubt. 12:20:14 In any case, it's an insignificant question. 12:20:35 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 12:21:22 Does anyone have Olin Shivers's sre.txt? 12:21:41 ah, http://www.scsh.net/docu/post/sre.html has a copy 12:21:51 Odin-: see the Preamble of that document for some context 12:22:47 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.5/20100623161114]] 12:22:48 Already reading. :) 12:22:50 barcon332 [~barcon332@208.89.210.254] has joined #lisp 12:23:02 And, yeah, seems to be the latter. :p 12:24:04 *Xach* misoverestimated by 5% 12:25:23 *Odin-* is insane enough to be interested in trying to implement POSIX in Lisp. 12:25:29 It just sounds like a neat exercise. 12:26:38 NIR[f] [~root@188.92.192.193] has joined #lisp 12:26:41 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.132.170] has joined #lisp 12:27:03 Could someone have a wild guess what's wrong with this slime-log buffer? (http://paste.pocoo.org/show/236435) 12:27:23 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 12:27:26 the system loads fine if I restart lisp but errs when ,reload-system from slime repl. 12:28:03 Odin-: there are already cases of such stuff being done, but it usually lacks the parts necessary to make it ueful 12:28:06 *useful 12:28:10 leo2007: you can just ignore those errors. 12:28:24 p_l: That's what I'd imagine. 12:28:24 there's SBCL-OS, there's Movitz 12:28:29 Ah. 12:28:35 Movitz isn't _quite_ that. 12:28:47 leo2007: sbcl issues warnings if the package defined by re-evaluating defpackage differs in certain ways from the package known already to the system 12:28:49 *Odin-* isn't actually talking about doing kernel stuff. 12:28:51 Odin-: first of all, it's easy to make a single-threaded Lisp OS - just get SBCL to run on bare-bones 12:29:14 I'm talking about the POSIX interface. Don't care if it's running on top of another POSIX or whatever. :> 12:29:49 Odin-: POSIX is rather firmly based on C, not sure if it is usable interface to be implemented when going for an all-lisp system 12:30:09 as for "OS running on top of host OS", look into how IRAF is implemented 12:30:34 bakkdoor [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 12:30:36 -!- bakkdoor [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has left #lisp 12:31:29 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cpitnoqgvzmflbvb] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:31:44 they kinda "overdid" their compatibility layer :D 12:31:48 p_l: You should be able to present the interface on a user level, though. And possibly to a C compiler-slash-runtime. :p 12:32:22 p_l: (I did say "insane" didn't I? I'm not thinking about something useful in any sense other than somebody going "that's fucked up".) 12:32:37 Make it so! 12:32:40 talk is cheap! 12:32:47 Odin-: try getting a hold of Genera CD, there might be sources for ZetaC 12:33:11 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-afksohqnbnugvtqr] has joined #lisp 12:33:27 p_l: Actually, I've found those lying around on the internet. That's part of what got me thinking about this sort of stuff. 12:34:14 Odin-: I bet you found OpenGenera one, that doesn't have full sources :D 12:34:23 Xach: ok, thanks. 12:34:45 p_l: Quite possible. Didn't look through it. 12:34:54 asarch [~asarch@189.188.198.168] has joined #lisp 12:35:22 p_l: But getting hold of anything related to LispMs is going to be hard here ... I don't think we ever had even a single one in the country. 12:35:48 *p_l* wishes OG2 stopped being so conflicted regarding X.Org... 12:35:52 p_l: the ones that Scott himself released? 12:37:07 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.132.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:37:19 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has left #lisp 12:38:03 lichtblau: I've only encountered those: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3769989/Symbolics_Open_Genera_2.0_for_Alpha_-_complete_package_with_Lisp 12:38:14 -!- peterhil [peterhil@ZYKMMMCCCXXII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 12:38:39 http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/TI/Explorer/zeta-c/ 12:38:49 (which doubles as the "most awesome reaction to your proprietary software showing on TPB") 12:38:55 That's the one I came across. 12:38:58 p_l: Oh? 12:39:26 Odin-: dkschmidt's comment on the torrent 12:39:26 ... the top comment is Symbolics? O_o 12:39:27 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:39:36 Wow. Okay. Yes. 12:39:40 I see your point. :) 12:39:48 btw, they are apparently still working on OpenGenera 12:41:06 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.128.112] has joined #lisp 12:42:19 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:33 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:42:35 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:35 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:42:35 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 12:45:25 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zkdrfrozugumpgse] has left #lisp 12:47:47 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:47:49 http://lispm.dyndns.org/news?ID=NEWS-2010-01-30-1 <--- new OpenGenera 12:50:02 -!- lusory [~bart@bb121-6-230-28.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:12 yay! 12:50:40 Interesting. 12:51:58 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:52:24 Although I have to admit I suspect development would speed up by some orders of magnitude if they opened up... 12:52:52 Odin-: opening up might be problematic 12:53:31 especially given USA's screwed copyright time length 12:53:35 AIUI, symbolics belongs to a clown nowadays 12:53:39 IP issues? 12:54:03 Wouldn't most of the IP belong to Symbolics themselves? 12:54:53 Odin-: some of it might have been licensed to them 12:54:57 p_l: did you get OG2 working recently on linux/amd64? 12:55:10 mal__: not recently 12:55:42 *mal__* neither. it hangs X during boot up 12:55:54 I did get Meroku to work recently, but last time I've got OG2 to run was 2y ago 12:56:16 p_l: They're keeping Macsyma closed, and unless I seriously misunderstood the development history of that, the only non-cleared copyright that can be there is Symbolics copyright. 12:56:51 p_l: So it would appear there's some resistance... 12:56:51 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:57:03 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-64-80.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:57:15 Odin-: or there simply was no real push for open sourcing 12:57:52 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:57:57 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 12:58:17 antifuchs, thanks for the link. Xach, thanks for the library. 12:58:27 lat: no problem. you can be user #2! 12:58:29 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-8-216.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:58:54 p_l: Dunno. Might be. There is an open fork of Macsyma. 12:59:54 *p_l* wonders if along with the ITS bits in Maxima some of Maclisp FFI code survived... 13:01:38 franz lisp was based on maclisp and has always been free. there might be some pieces of it there too. 13:01:41 Xach, what did you use zpb-ttf for? it must have been an interesting project. 13:01:56 lat: I use it ten thousand times per day on http://wigflip.com/ 13:02:15 almost all the tools there use it 13:02:40 Maclisp FFI was fun 13:03:14 davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has joined #lisp 13:03:56 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:04:08 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-afksohqnbnugvtqr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:04:34 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hoycbsnamrmylroh] has joined #lisp 13:08:03 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:08:44 Xach: #3 at least! 13:08:54 Xach: I'm using zpb-ttf for an experimental classic clim backend (: 13:09:23 oh, sweet 13:09:28 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 13:09:32 classic clim? bah. 13:09:43 it's still too experimental to publish, but it should be neat once done 13:09:55 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-163-120.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:10:52 Is that work being sponsored by paying classic CLIM users? 13:11:09 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:11:37 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-137-134.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:11:54 -!- oconnore [~eric@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:12:25 lusory [~bart@bb220-255-245-158.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:12:26 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:15:30 'classic clim'? 13:16:12 as opposed to mcclim 13:17:03 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:18:26 TDT [~user@173-30-32-53.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:29 lichtblau: indeed (: 13:18:29 Is there a single reference implementation, or does McCLIM backend stuff not match spec? O_o 13:18:57 jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:57 the backends are not sufficiently specced 13:19:01 -!- jan247 [~jan247@tkt34.chikka.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:19:01 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 13:19:11 also, mcclim and classic clim deviate from the spec in various ways (: 13:19:17 mcclim, less so than classic (: 13:19:43 I take it "classic" is a single implementation used by more than one commercial CL, or something of that sort? 13:19:47 I have a version of classic in Lispworks but I've never done anything with it 13:19:55 (I'm genuinely ignorant, and would like to know.) 13:20:15 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 13:20:54 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-137-134.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21:43 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.146.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:21:45 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has joined #lisp 13:21:49 p_l: I don't think any of the Maclisp FFI still exists in maxima since maxima does not support any FFI. 13:22:00 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:22:27 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:52 rtoym: yeah, it would be however really funny to find some :) 13:23:21 Why would that be funny? 13:23:26 Odin-: there are about three or four classic clim implementations around. they all have one ancestor, source code wise (also IP-wise) 13:23:39 Odin-: I am responsible for one of them. 13:23:46 that is, I answer bug reports (: 13:23:49 rtoym: in the "what manages to survive inside source" way 13:24:18 DUIM is also opensourced I believe 13:25:19 oconnore [~eric@209.177.151.180] has joined #lisp 13:25:29 mal__: it's related to CLIM conceptually (and through authorship), but AFAIK not through code 13:25:48 antifuchs: *wave* 13:26:00 antifuchs: I know. It's written in Dylan. but it's interesting to see what McKay did different in his second design. 13:26:49 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:27:12 now were on the subject of ancient soft, does any one have a copy of Harlequin MLWorks? or know what has happened to it 13:27:20 mcc_ [~mike@ip68-104-164-151.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:27 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:28:28 antifuchs: I see. Thank you. :) 13:30:20 *p_l* recently looked into compiling Dynamic Windows, but gave up 13:31:16 Xach, is units/em the function needed to get the length? does it work on only one character, or the whole string? How would I get the length of this string:  13:32:39 hey Jabberwockey (: 13:32:40 whr [~user@chello084010174193.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 13:32:49 lat: http://xach.com/lisp/zpb-ttf/#string-bounding-box 13:33:22 lat: that will give you the bounding box in the em space. you'd have to scale the values for some particular scaling of em space. 13:33:27 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 13:34:07 lat: for example, if your em space is 1000 units per em, and you want the font at 18 pixels, multiply all results by 18/1000. 13:34:17 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:06 Komi [Komi@83.231.20.33] has joined #lisp 13:35:23 lat: what font are you using? 13:35:27 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:35:34 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:17 Xach, LMRoman12 13:41:21 antifuchs: I'll move to Dortmund in October 13:41:31 cool! 13:41:47 Jabberwockey: I'll probably move in October, too (: 13:42:16 Where to? 13:42:21 Don't make me jealous 13:42:32 then I won't say (-: 13:42:42 nah, I don't want to jinx it, so no public announcement yet (: 13:42:45 Ok, go on then 13:43:09 Hopefully Reno! 13:43:12 At least temporarily. 13:43:40 Netking [~yeah@cpc2-clif5-0-0-cust181.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:45 -!- slaker [~slaker@212.183.140.48] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:44:22 *Xach* finds his bookmarking service and github's naming policy in an unfortunate clash: "Saving vseloved's nuts at master - GitHub" 13:45:50 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:13 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.20.33] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:47:28 Komi [Komi@83.231.23.57] has joined #lisp 13:50:26 Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:24 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.128.112] has quit [Quit: Well, the machine might have gone down. Brb after a reboot.] 13:52:12 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:56:33 Xach, thanks for the explanation. I'll play around with it a little bit, then let you know the results. It may take a few days, as I'm really busy right now. 13:56:36 Joreji [~thomas@90-231.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:56:59 lat: no problem. if you run into any trouble, let me know. 13:57:40 ferada [~user@g224098167.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:00:26 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has joined #lisp 14:00:58 Xach, thanks. Will do. 14:03:15 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:03:40 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:08 -!- xan_ [~xan@109.144.253.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:06:15 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:09:02 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@2002:440c:cc83:1234:223:dfff:fee0:3016] has joined #lisp 14:09:21 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:09:54 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:10:15 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:11:18 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:20 lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 14:13:17 konr` [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 14:14:15 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:15:51 -!- mcc_ [~mike@ip68-104-164-151.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:18:22 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:19 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 14:21:11 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229175143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 14:21:35 rme [~rme@pool-68-238-7-51.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:08 is clojure the future of common lisp? 14:22:20 clojure is the future of clojure 14:22:46 but some senior lispers seem to believe that? 14:23:22 who? 14:23:44 daniel weinreb 14:24:23 and I also learnt from quite a few blogs from people who attended ilc2009. 14:24:33 clojure is pretty awesome, but it's not a common lisp (: 14:24:34 roygbiv [~JohnRambo@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:24:54 leo2007: well, clojure isn't common lisp, so can hardly be the future of common lisp 14:24:59 it's also _very different_ 14:25:15 peterhil [peterhil@YZCCXXX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 14:25:17 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:36 it was funny when I first saw a piece of code ending in )))])) 14:25:39 Clojure is more closely related to Scheme, I believe 14:26:02 I think you could call it a conceptual relative of CL 14:26:14 In worse is better, common lisp was supposed to be an intermediary product. 14:26:25 *stassats* is stuck in the present 14:26:40 and then coming better was going to come out. 14:26:41 leo2007: did daniel weinreb say that clojure was the future of Lisp or Common Lisp ? 14:26:52 kuwabara: I can't remember exactly. 14:27:19 the situation was similar to LaTeX2e 14:27:37 except LaTeX2e is more widely used. 14:28:41 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 14:29:17 LaTeX3 is in development for more than 1.5 decades. 14:29:33 fatblueduck [~user@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:13 good morning pound lisp 14:30:55 leo2007: It's my impression that people will continue to use CL for a long time regardless of the state of Clojure. 14:30:55 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:58 leo2007: I'm honestly surprised that LaTeX is still in development, I can really not think of much more than LaTeX can do. 14:31:52 Xach: I'm sure people will still use CL, but I do hope that Clojure does make a larger dent in development circles at least hopefully gaining about as much popularity as Ruby/Python. 14:31:55 TDT: you are going to be more surprised that they have gained some momentum (two young active developers) and we might see a release pretty soon. 14:31:58 ugh 14:31:59 Is Clojure "closely related" to any existing Lisp? 14:32:06 clojure is not lispy enough for me 14:32:25 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:32:31 dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:32:33 it combines one of my favourite languages with one of my least favourite languages 14:32:41 leo2007: I'll be intersted to see their changelog when it comes out 14:33:00 TDT: http://www.mail-archive.com/ctan-ann@dante.de/msg03157.html 14:33:20 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 14:33:28 The only advantage I see with Clojure in terms of sitting on the JRE is access to all the java libraries is actually kinda nice. I know very very very very little clojure so I can't speak too much about it :) 14:34:08 TDT: and that's a big advantage. they already have a package to do proper statistics. 14:35:14 leo2007: I'd also find it helpful for accessing some of the lucene stuff for text mining, and weka libraries for other data mining stuff. 14:35:19 TDT: well, and it's designed with clear direction for parallel stuff 14:35:32 if you only want access to java, there's ABCL 14:35:40 relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 14:35:41 p_l: ah, I didn't know about that part (the parallel stuff) 14:36:40 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:37:08 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest64459 14:37:09 is it incorrect to feel that clojure lacks a certain 'sovereign' status because of its dependency on jre? 14:37:18 p_l: I've been resistant to learning Clojure since I feel I'm not that good even at CL at this point and hope to continue my learning. Maybe ABCL is actually something I should try using here and there. I'm not too terribly interested in parallel programming, at least not at the moment, but there are some nice java libraries. 14:37:50 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:38:19 mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:21 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 14:40:12 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hoycbsnamrmylroh] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:40:14 TDT: i have a similar situation. and I slightly dislike clojure's syntax. 14:41:45 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:42:11 Yeah, I do find it odd the brackets here and there. 14:42:18 dym [~dym@217.20.175.226] has joined #lisp 14:42:35 Tanami: well, you're not strictly speaking forced to touch the icky Java 14:42:46 -!- Guest64459 [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:42:57 the STM stuff is rather nice, though 14:42:59 I guess 14:43:25 dcrawford_ [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:25 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:39 -!- dcrawford_ [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:44:00 vng [~user@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:15 Good afternoon! 14:44:33 (response 'greetings) 14:45:41 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:10 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483CBCE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:57 morning 14:47:25 blandest` [~user@109.166.128.165] has joined #lisp 14:48:58 hello vng 14:49:01 hello slyrus 14:49:10 vng: Are you in Paris now? 14:49:11 hello beach 14:49:43 beach: yes, I've been here for a month 14:49:53 beach: how are you? 14:50:10 vng: Fine! How are things with you? Did you find a room yet? 14:50:30 beach: yes 14:50:50 beach: it's good 14:51:03 Great! How do you like Paris? 14:51:06 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:51:30 beach: yeah, it's very beautiful 14:51:58 beach: maus wants to hello to you 14:52:25 vng: Sure, tell him hello from me as well. 14:52:56 beach: certainly 14:54:02 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 14:54:04 -!- peterhil [peterhil@YZCCXXX.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 14:54:21 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:54:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-231.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:54:41 How to get all file names in a directory? 14:54:56 vng: DIRECTORY can do something like that. 14:55:21 Xach: can you explain more? 14:55:56 xan_ [~xan@109.144.219.59] has joined #lisp 14:56:00 clhs directory 14:56:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm 14:57:00 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:02 -!- abend [~alx@delta.muted.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:57:22 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:57:50 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:58:04 vng: See http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/vietnamese.png for my latest application to help me drill Vietnamese vocabulary. It is trivial, but then I wrote my own Vietnamese input method for Emacs so as to allow me to type Vietnamese text much faster. 14:58:05 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:12 -!- fmu [root@unaffiliated/fmu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:59:22 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-93-81.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:00:25 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:00:31 beach: great 15:01:58 fmu [root@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 15:02:30 vng: Yeah, it helps the memorizing process a lot that one has to actually type the word with accents and all. 15:03:51 carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.149] has joined #lisp 15:04:12 *_3b`* suspects memorizing vocabulary isn't a particularly efficient way to study language (at least for me) 15:04:43 stassats: how do I list all file of a file type in a directory (like: ls /dirs/*.dat) 15:06:40 _3b`: It is kind of necessary when you learn a language where you have no previous associations of its vocabulary. Also, the Vietnamese grammar is relatively simple, so learning the vocabulary is pretty much the only difficulty. 15:06:55 <_3b`> having to type things does seem like it would be helpful though, aside from the part about needing something to type on 15:07:13 <_3b`> beach: i mean more memorizing it at the word level 15:07:22 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:07:47 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.230.215] has quit [Quit: off] 15:07:47 *_3b`* is doing that with japanese currently, but wishes i had the resources to try out some more complex strategies 15:07:54 _3b`: reading, listening, speaking are most important to me, speaking is the most important but it is too dependent on the environment. 15:08:01 vng: try (directory "/dirs/*.dat"), if you use a hardcoded pathname 15:08:17 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:21 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-200-129.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:08:30 davazp: i'll try 15:08:42 <_3b`> leo2007: yeah, i'm actively avoiding any attempts to speak currently, since i have nobody to complain about my accent for me :) 15:09:10 ASau`` [~user@77.246.230.215] has joined #lisp 15:09:20 _3b`: good strategy. If you are serious about one language, you should go to that country to work for a year or so. 15:09:50 <_3b`> my goal is to get enough vocabulary to start trying to read, then work on listening 'til i can watch anime without subtitles, then start on speaking 15:10:43 davazp: thanks 15:11:04 _3b`: is that the sole reason you learn Japanese? 15:11:30 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 15:11:31 <_3b`> anime? not really 15:11:37 ok 15:11:58 it would sound a lot of effort to do something which may or may not be important in life. 15:12:06 <_3b`> just the easiest access to relatively large quantities of spoken japanese 15:12:23 <_3b`> well, part of it is just that i don't like only knowing 1 language :p 15:12:36 _3b`: which is your mother tongue? 15:12:40 <_3b`> american 15:12:54 -!- Netking [~yeah@cpc2-clif5-0-0-cust181.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 15:13:11 <_3b`> (or US english if you prefer) 15:13:52 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-hevpafspksuyslhf] has joined #lisp 15:13:54 *_3b`* would assume that would be obvious from IRCing in english and learning japanese to avoid only knowing 1 language :) 15:14:06 _3b`: learning another language is definitely very very important. 15:15:04 <_3b`> japanese is also one of the more important languages for game dev, though from what i hear Sony has decent docs in english now 15:15:24 _3b`: in my experience, listening comes easier first, then speaking... but getting to the point where you can read a Japanese mag or newspaper is far steeper learning curve. 15:16:05 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:16:30 tsuru: someone told me Japanese doesn't have too many sounds, so going from English Japanese is easier than vice versa. 15:17:07 <_3b`> yeah, reading at an adult level will take a while, i focus on teen level for now, since kanji+furigana is easiest to read 15:17:33 leo2007: but there are still some inflections on those sounds that will get you :) 15:17:42 <_3b`> leo2007: i'd argue that makes it harder for listening/reading, since there are more words that sound the same 15:18:01 <_3b`> not having to learn to make new sounds does help though :) 15:18:38 I've always found that speaking is easier than listening. 15:18:48 hmmm, but my Japanese friends are struggling with English. One of them is an English teacher at a university in Tokyo. 15:18:57 Zhivago: That is extremely unusual. 15:19:00 There are a few difficult sounds for an ENglish speaker -- wo, ng, lr. 15:19:13 <_3b`> leo2007: well, that is english, everyone has trouble with that :p 15:19:24 odin: I don't see why -- you know the words you know after all, which are the ones you are speaking. 15:19:32 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:19:38 odin: People speaking to you often use words that you don't know. 15:19:45 Zhivago: Yes, but you don't always know the words you need to get out. 15:19:57 leo2007: blending consonants is a little hard for them. 15:20:02 Well, that can require a little creativity. 15:20:05 <_3b`> harder to figure out what to say from context :p 15:20:20 *Odin-* has that problem in, oh, three languages. :/ 15:20:22 tsuru: yes 15:21:04 The main problem with Japanese is the incredibly stupid writing system. 15:21:14 whenever I couldn't remember vocab I would take the english word and put it into japanese syllabry... it worked more often than not 15:21:28 -!- sellout [~greg@212.234.38.214] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:21:40 It would be like pronouncing 'telephone' as 'farspeaker' by analogy in English. 15:21:58 Zhivago: You mean the number of different writing systems, or? 15:22:00 ? 15:22:19 tsuru: do you know if Japanese use idioms heavily? 15:22:47 -!- blandest` [~user@109.166.128.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:22:56 The japanese use chinese characters for meaning, but map it back to whatever random japanese word that meaning intends. 15:22:58 *Odin-* can't help thinking that alphabets, with all their problems, are substantially more useful than most any other writing system. 15:22:59 <_3b`> leo2007: seems like it from what i've seen 15:23:08 leo2007: about the same I would guess... I didn't encounter it too much when I was there other than when my office was quizzing me 15:23:18 So you end up with sometimes 20 pronunciations for a given kanji character. 15:23:31 *_3b`* has been surprised to find that i seem to be better at memorizing words with more kanji compared to things using only kana 15:23:44 Odin: They're actually pretty poor. Just look at any text that's significant old, written in an alphabet. 15:23:45 -!- carrl [~carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:23:45 Including the "can't hold together a massive monocultural empire" bit. 15:23:56 <_3b`> Zhivago: doesn't help that they imported chinese pronunciations from a bunch of different eras too 15:23:57 Zhivago: "significant" meaning how long? 15:24:19 _3b`: My British friend just complained to me that he can make himself understood in Chinese but he couldn't understand people become they like to use idioms here and there. 15:24:26 Odin: A couple hundred years of popular literacy does it nicely. 15:24:31 Zhivago: but it kind of helps break up a sentence when you don't have spaces :) 15:24:31 because* 15:24:46 carrl [~carl@61-64-164-206-adsl-tai.STATIC.so-net.net.tw] has joined #lisp 15:24:56 Odin: If you go for phoneticism, then phonetic drift rips your texts to pieces in a couple hundred years. 15:25:00 Zhivago: So ... "text over 200 years old isn't comprehensible to modern people"? 15:25:10 Odin: If you go for morphology, then it tends to be more stable. 15:25:29 Zhivago: Oh, so you _are_ talking about the content of the text, not the appearance? 15:25:39 Odin: English spelling tries to balance between the two, having both mediocre phoneticism and morphology. 15:25:46 Zhivago: Then I have some 900 year old books I can read quite easily. 15:25:53 Odin: In which language? 15:25:56 Zhivago: Icelandic. 15:26:10 Pretty much a dead language isn't it? :) 15:26:16 Errr? 15:26:24 There's still 300.000 of us. 15:26:31 That's bugger all. 15:26:35 Sure, but that's not dead. 15:26:42 _3b`: 1+1 > 2, so keep up with it. 15:26:50 Having a small, geographically concentrated population is one way to slow down evolution. 15:27:07 silenius [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:13 have learned russian as a child by wathcing TV and reading.. I think that experience helped me alot with english.. 15:27:15 Personally, I think the chinese approach of focussing on semantics with secondary phonetic hints is a better choice. 15:27:37 It's just that the Japanese did such a lousy job of integrating them. 15:28:00 Zhivago: that happened in 13th century, no? 15:28:06 Zhivago: have you studied Korean's way at all? 15:28:09 Zhivago: I suppose it depends on what your objective is. 15:28:17 they used to embrace Chinese almost entirely. 15:28:25 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has left #lisp 15:28:30 tsuru: Yes. Koreans use Chinese much, much better. 15:28:59 Zhivago: But I should note that reading old European texts usually runs into more trouble with script styles than spelling or language issues. 15:29:08 <-- Historian. 15:29:28 tsuru: The Chinese character is used for words of chinese derivation, and generally there's one pronunciation per character (rarely two, as in cha and da-sil). 15:29:44 Odin: Ever read any chaucer? 15:30:51 UnwashedMeme [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:31:02 Zhivago: Yes. But English is a remarkably horrible example. 15:31:25 -!- rme [~rme@pool-68-238-7-51.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 15:31:26 "This frere bosteth that he knoweth helle," 15:31:36 Zhivago: I also meant hangul which, I've been told, is pretty much always pronounced as written... which I took to mean few if any "exceptions" 15:31:42 "this friar boasted that he knew hell"? 15:31:43 <_3b`> english is as bad as japanese for way to read a given chunk of word :p 15:32:01 tsuru: There are common phonetic blendings in hangul, and you have patchim transference. 15:32:33 _3b`: Not only is it currently sucky, its development history is also a nightmarish mishmash of random influences. 15:32:34 tsuru: e.g., hesseupnida is prounounced hesseumnida. 15:32:45 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:47 tsuri: jongro is pronounced jonglo. 15:33:16 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 15:33:42 tsuru: Also, it's lost a bunch of its elements over the years, like the l paired z sound, etc. 15:33:42 Zhivago: I see. 15:33:59 Zhivago: You seem to have overlooked my main point, however. 15:34:20 tsuru: You can also see significant phonetic drift in hangul texts going back 300 years. 15:34:33 odin: Which was? 15:34:53 Zhivago: Which was that stylistic developments in the writing itself usually does more to obscure the content than linguistic drift. 15:36:27 Zhivago: At least, for the alphabetic systems, which are what I know, since those are the sources I work with. 15:36:41 odin: As long as you don't look at anything like old-english or ... 15:36:57 Zhivago: No. Including that. 15:36:58 odin: I think that largely that's an artifact of general illiteracy. 15:37:08 Zhivago: If you can't read Chaucer, that's your problem, not mine. 15:37:10 -!- lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:37:27 Chaucer isn't old english ... 15:37:33 What kind of historian did you say you were? 15:37:40 he's middle, isn't he? 15:37:48 Zhivago: Ah! 15:37:49 old English isn't particularly like English at all 15:38:00 Zhivago: Old English *isn't* the same language. 15:38:12 Well, that's a convenient excuse. 15:38:19 Zhivago: That's sort of like going "but if you compare French and Spanish". 15:38:22 Whenever it gets tricky we'll just say they're unrelated. 15:38:33 Yeah, why not compare french and latin ... 15:38:34 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:38:52 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 15:38:54 Since french is essentially illiterate latin with drift. 15:39:10 Zhivago: Contemporary English is a pidgin language. Old English is one of its sources. 15:39:47 Now, if we we had been using a nice lexographic system, the change would have been far less significant. 15:40:07 Zhivago: No, it wouldn't. It just wouldn't have shown up in the written record. 15:40:24 Which is the lesson chinese gives us -- let the speach drift, but anchor the writing in meaning. 15:40:28 WHat? 15:40:46 We're talking about the change to the written language ... 15:40:52 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.72.132] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:41:00 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:41:38 You can look at English spelling as a half-arsed attempt to do what chinese does. 15:41:53 Zhivago: I prefer not to look at English spelling. 15:42:03 English orthography and grammar have exactly one thing in common. 15:42:08 And they share that with God. 15:42:12 None of 'em exist. 15:42:15 :> 15:42:43 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 15:42:44 Well, you're not going to make a very good historian with wilful blindness like that. :) 15:43:03 Zhivago: I don't think there's conscious decision about that. 15:44:16 I'd like to see English spelling reformed closer to its morphology -- enflamable rather than inflamable, etc. 15:44:18 Zhivago: No. You see, I think we're at a basic point here. You think the English lack of orthography is a "half-arsed attempt". I think it's complete lunacy. 15:44:44 Odin: Well, you also think that Chaucer speaks Old English, so ... 15:45:10 Zhivago: No. You'd been talking about Chaucer moments earlier so I replied on autopilot. 15:45:11 xinming [~hyy@122.238.72.132] has joined #lisp 15:47:24 -!- vng [~user@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:38 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 15:49:05 mattrepl_ [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 15:50:16 vng [~user@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:53 Ah. With Korean you also have long and short vowels which are written the same way in hangul. 15:51:15 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:51:17 Like mal and mal -- speach and horse respectively. 15:51:35 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:51:35 -!- mattrepl_ is now known as mattrepl 15:51:41 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:52:35 Or chamhada meaning decaptiation or something vaguely like comely or becoming. 15:53:10 Probably remanants of a tonal system. 15:53:26 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:54:02 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:54:10 -!- NIR[f] [~root@188.92.192.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:54:39 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:51 G'morning all. 15:55:14 hey :) 15:56:41 I am beginning to dislike the intersection between function-calling and GC. 15:57:26 nyef: The consing of essentially book-keeping data? 15:57:59 Zhivago: the assumption of a sane backtrace. 15:58:02 No, the question of "how the hell do I keep my program counter and/or link register straight?" 15:58:04 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:11 Ah. :) 15:58:35 If it were -just- a sane backtrace, I'd be a little happier. 15:58:50 Instead, it's the program counter ending up being -wrong-. 15:58:53 What are you trying to fix? 15:59:25 _3b`: regarding japanese, there's an interesting case for memorizing just kanji, using one of possible meanings (and not necessarily the most common one), in order to drill your mind into fluent recognition of the writing, then crank the vocab to match :) 15:59:27 Typically, this bug manifests itself as an illegal instruction trap after a GC. 16:00:50 ignis_ [~quassel@c-98-226-186-66.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:08 <_3b`> p_l: i'm sort of going the other way around... learning vocabulary without worrying about whether i know the kanji in it or not :p 16:02:34 -!- konr` [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:54 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 16:03:32 konr` [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 16:03:58 *_3b`* suspects adding some sort of knowledge about which kanji i've seen before into the selection of which words to learn and in what order might be useful, but more work than i want to do at the moment 16:04:32 -!- vng [~user@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04:37 sellout [~greg@212.234.38.214] has joined #lisp 16:04:49 3b: The kanji are important if you want any significant vocabulary, since they allow you to decompose compounds of chinese origin, which compose the majority of vocabulary. 16:04:55 <_3b`> or at least some way to check whether i know other words with same/similar kanji when i see one i sort of recognize 16:05:32 <_3b`> Zhivago: yeah, i'm not avoiding them, just not worrying about learning them separately from whole words yet 16:06:08 _3b`: I heard that if you try the "just memorize the shapes and single word", significant amount of kanji can be memorized quite fast (someone claiming to do all necessary 1945 in few months), then you can easily expand the vocabulary :) 16:07:18 To learn kanji you should learn how to do radical decomposition. 16:08:30 That reduces the complexity of the characters a great deal. 16:08:34 curi [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:52 <_3b`> yeah, i need to learn more radicals at some point ;/ 16:09:00 Zhivago: afaik it was part of that method 16:09:09 Also you won't be able to write properly otherwise. 16:09:42 *_3b`* will wait on handwriting until i have time to write a game for practicing it 16:10:01 <_3b`> not like i can write in english by hand all that well 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has joined #lisp 16:49:11 How can I add package to current package ? 16:49:19 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75514b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:43 what's "add"? 16:49:45 USE-PACKAGE, not that I've ever used that explicitly 16:50:07 Usually you add another package to the :use clause of your DEFPACKAGE form, and recompile that 16:51:33 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-28-250.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:33 I'm trying to make an allegro lisp image and it complains about ide.base package 16:51:58 They have responsive support lists 16:52:09 if I could just add it to current package 16:52:41 prljavi_hari: What is it supposed to mean to add a package to another package? 16:53:06 that it contains that package 16:53:42 prljavi_hari: Lisp packages cannot contain other packages. They just contain symbols. 16:53:56 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:54:30 I tried making my own package but I don't know what packages current packe contains 16:54:31 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.2] has joined #lisp 16:54:38 jmbr [~jmbr@149.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:54:50 prljavi_hari: Lisp packages can't contain other packages. 16:55:01 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 16:55:06 prljavi_hari: Lisp packages contain name-to-symbol mappings. 16:55:17 I mean :use :package1 :package2 16:55:28 prljavi_hari: That is not containing. 16:55:44 *beach* feels this is another case where everyone else on this channel knows what is meant except him. 16:56:13 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:56:18 clhs use-package 16:56:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_use_pk.htm 16:56:35 how it's called then 16:56:57 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.23.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:44 prljavi_hari: with use-package, one package inherits the external symbols of another packge. Read the page referred to by the URL that I gave you above. 16:58:24 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:38 ok, thanks 16:59:13 No problem. In the future, you should work on getting your terminology straight. It makes it a lot easier to get help. 17:00:28 good evening, does anybody here happens to be from academia and uses scheme/cl for teaching? I need an urgent advice.. 17:00:51 udzinari: Yours truly uses CL in courses. 17:01:16 udzinari: [and good evening to you] 17:06:52 *nyef* wonders if he can guarantee that either reg_CODE or reg_LRA is -always- valid if the PC is within the heap... 17:07:18 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 17:08:49 ... and the answer is, "not during tail-call". :-/ 17:09:58 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:10:10 Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:26 -!- Avisch [~Avisch@70-101-99-64.dsl1-field.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:05 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:13:59 -!- Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:14:15 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:14:28 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:19:04 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:20:14 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-8-112.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 17:20:17 Revolve [revolve@wind.nullroute.eu.org] has joined #lisp 17:20:41 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:12 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 17:24:37 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:24:40 TR2N [email@89.180.161.235] has joined #lisp 17:24:52 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has joined #lisp 17:29:23 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:30:17 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 17:30:27 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 17:30:31 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Quit: cutting distraction] 17:32:55 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 17:33:05 -!- NIR[f] [~root@pppoe-44-166.prtcom.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:33:37 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.92.96.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:37:00 -!- froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:38:50 milanj [~milanj_@109.93.205.228] has joined #lisp 17:39:14 jbd [~user@67-198-71-121.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:18 how do people use clsql, which apparently requires uffi, with clbuild, which uses cffi-uffi-compat? 17:45:42 jbd: in principle, cffi-uffi-compat should be a drop-in replacement for uffi. Is it not working with clsql nowadays? 17:45:43 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 17:45:46 cffi-uffi-compat "provides" uffi, doesn't it? 17:46:15 I had several uffi failures when testing quicklisp stuff because cffi-uffi-compat was insufficiently compat. 17:46:30 *Xach* will check again sometime soon 17:47:09 when loading clsql-mysql with cffi-uffi-compat, i get the error "caught ERROR: (in macroexpansion of (CONVERT-FROM-FOREIGN-STRING CHAR-PTR :NULL-TERMINATED-P ...))" 17:47:34 "error while parsing arguments to DEFMACRO CONVERT-FROM-FOREIGN-STRING: unknown keyword: :ENCODING; expected one of :NULL-TERMINATED-P, :LOCALE, :LENGTH" 17:48:15 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-234.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:35 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-252-73.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:52:33 -!- oconnore [~eric@209.177.151.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:37 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 17:53:11 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:54:21 NIR[f] [~root@188.92.198.81] has joined #lisp 17:54:53 jbd: make sure you have recent versions of BOTH clsql and uffi 17:56:02 -!- Drakeson [~user@75-119-246-205.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 17:56:05 UnwashedMeme: do you mean cffi-uffi-compat? i don't think uffi works with clbuild 17:57:20 jbd: the latest versions of clsql don't think work with cffi-uffi-compat, the uffi protocol changed a bit and i don't think anyone has gotten around to updating the cffi-uffi-compat layer 17:59:05 sad0ur [~sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 17:59:17 astalla [~astalla@93-36-229-113.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:04:37 jbd: iirc clbuild itself doesn't care about either CFFI or UFFI 18:04:50 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:05:41 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:59 p_l: clbuild does not include uffi, considers cffi to be the source of uffi 18:06:11 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 18:08:06 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 18:09:53 oconnore [~eric@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 18:09:55 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082C0F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:10 daniel [~daniel@p5082C0F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:55 ah 18:11:18 bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-252.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:10 switched to a clsql version from Feb 6, 2010 before the "Support UFFI's new internationalized string capabilities" was added and it compiles with cffi-uffi-compat now 18:19:56 LiamH: how does gsll handle cblas? 18:20:04 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:23:01 -!- xan_ [~xan@109.144.219.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:23:57 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:04 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-252-73.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:58 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:31:20 xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.77.76] has joined #lisp 18:33:01 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:34:08 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.72.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:34:21 Hi all. 18:34:36 Is there any analogs for ASDF? 18:34:57 mk-defsystem 18:35:49 The ever-popular "just write your own load.lisp for each project" 18:36:19 stassats: Does it work in CLISP? (I'm a happy Slackware user and too lasy to use SBCL btw.) 18:36:23 -!- dfox [~dfox@r3ah44.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:36:31 rkm1000 [62659c44@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.101.156.68] has joined #lisp 18:36:37 now there's XCVB, isn't it? 18:36:47 NIR[f]: oh, you're being serious? 18:37:26 what's your problem with ASDF? 18:37:36 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082F07C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:39 dfox [~dfox@r3ah44.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 18:38:40 stassats: Just personal hate for ASDF from the time of Debian Etch. 18:38:51 NIR[f]: get over it. 18:39:17 XCVB looks interesting. 18:39:38 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082C0F8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:39:51 i don't think XCVB is ready yet 18:40:36 it needs a few more minutes in the oven 18:41:25 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-24-12.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:41:50 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-9-124.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:42:59 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:46:16 varjagg [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:46:32 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:49:02 /q 18:49:03 xinming [~hyy@122.238.74.31] has joined #lisp 18:49:11 -!- kirkwood [~kirkwood@c-76-104-244-75.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:49:27 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:22 What is the general opinion of Clojure in the lisp community? 18:50:45 There Is No Community 18:50:49 i only know that it's off-topic in this channel 18:50:51 That, or I'm not sure anyone bothered to conduct a survey 18:51:57 Ok, how do you lispers feel about it in gerneral? 18:52:12 SegFaultAX: what stassats said seems relevant. 18:52:21 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.77.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:52:40 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-46-234.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 18:52:53 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 18:53:12 sykopomp: Well as you know I am just getting started in common lisp, and I am curious if clojure is a next logical step, as opposed to Scheme or Erlang or something. 18:53:21 it's just another language and i don't think i need to feel anything about it 18:53:28 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA992F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:53:49 SegFaultAX: Clojure is not a Common Lisp descendant. 18:53:51 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:53:51 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:03 sykopomp: But it is a lisp dialect. 18:54:06 SegFaultAX: CL is pretty conservative. I don't think any language has the ability to make everyone who likes CL jump ship. 18:54:56 pkhuong: I meant in terms of learning and growing in the lisp way, not jumping ship. 18:55:19 clojure code i've seen does a lot of things non-lisp 18:55:25 er 'not the lisp way' 18:55:32 Lisp is large. if you're just starting, pick one and stick with it. 18:56:08 i like CL because it doesn't change and is still good enough 18:56:08 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:56:10 Fade: But I am looking for a bit of direction is all :) 18:56:36 konr` [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 18:56:37 stassats: Do you feel its "modern" enough for you? Is that even an issue at this point. 18:56:42 Common Lisp is a good direction; 'course, you're likely to get that opinion, here. 18:56:55 SegFaultAX: Arc is the next logical step from common lisp, ofc. 18:57:16 *_3b`* votes CMlisp is the future 18:57:30 hah. I wish. :) 18:57:34 *Fade* fires up frostburg 18:57:35 Fade: I realize that asking is CL a good language in the CL channel is silly, but a lot of lispers seems to be comfortable with many dialects. 18:57:46 Fade: Right tool for the right job and all that. 18:58:01 SegFaultAX: How long have you been using CL? 18:58:03 sykopomp: Arc? Is that a CL descendant? 18:58:11 TDT: Literally 3 or 4 days. 18:58:15 well, you haven't stated a job. if you have to deliver systems on a javaruntime, and you already know lisp, clojure makes excellent sense. 18:58:22 SegFaultAX: tongue is firmly planted in cheek. 18:58:51 SegFaultAX: ah, wow...I wouldn't be too worried about the next logical jump..been using CL here for...um...1-2 years, I don't know exactly, and I still feel like a newbie at this stuff :) 18:58:56 but if you're a neophyte, then common lisp or scheme are probably more reasonable choices. 18:59:42 So I'm not shooting myself in the foot by learning CL with all these newfangled lisp dialects sprouting up? 19:00:01 I don't think so. 19:00:07 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:09 CL is an excellent language. 19:00:24 TBH I found the concepts that CL helped give me to be far more beneficial so far than the applicable use of it. 19:00:55 *Xach* is busy applicablatin' 19:00:56 and while I may not code at work in it full time, ever hope to get a job doing CL...I am happy to have learned what I have so far, and feel I have a long, long road to go yet 19:01:01 TDT: That's the whole reason I started lisping, I want to be an even better developer. 19:01:10 SegFaultAX: You sound like me 2 years ago 19:01:21 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:33 SegFaultAX: I should dig up the list of books that people in this room recommended to me back then :) It's been a good guide 19:01:49 TDT: I come from the C world, so this has been kind of a big jump for me so far. 19:02:25 TDT: I have been reading PCL and next on the list is a gentle introduction to symbolic programming or something similar to that title. 19:02:28 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:02:29 That's why it's good to take it. It's a totally different paradigm than the C/C++/Java world, and in a good way. I came from C/C++/PHP personally, and at first it was hard too 19:03:50 TDT: On the other hand I feel compelled to learn a dialect that might help me in my professional life as well as my personal, so I am curious of I have made the right choice with CL. 19:03:55 The books recommended from here were: PAIP, Pragmatic Programmer, Common Lisp - The Language, OnLisp, some design patterns books, SICP, Art of the Metaobject Protocol. 19:04:05 As I clearly do not have my finger on the pulse of CL yet. 19:04:25 -!- curi [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:04:41 I think that depends on how you define helping your professional life. As I was saying, I think the conceptual knowledge is what helps out the most. 19:04:59 TDT: Then that's good enough for me. 19:05:14 Various CL implementations can interoperate with C, Java, and .net, if that's your concern 19:05:24 TDT: Also, about 50% of the reason I am picking up CL is so I can finally read SICP. 19:05:44 SICP uses Scheme, not CL 19:05:47 sicp uses scheme. 19:05:50 natch 19:05:52 :) 19:06:08 but SICP is a very general course. 19:06:21 so what you learn there is xlatable to just about everything. 19:06:54 It wouldn't take long to pick up enough SICP to get through the book, SegFaultAX. I would recommend looking at the iTunesU setup on MIT's CS course. THey have an SICP course there 19:07:03 astalla: > and .net, if that's your concern 19:07:03 Really? Can you tell me the name of such implementation? 19:07:37 minion: rdnzl? 19:07:37 rdnzl: http://weitz.de/rdnzl/ 19:07:42 SegFaultAX: I'm personally going through PAIP, but I woudn't recommend that right off..it's dense as heck when it comes to some of the lisp that's done here. Great book though. 19:07:45 *NIR[f]* is looking for ways to use CL in commercial purposes. 19:07:57 NIR[f]: what minion said :) 19:08:23 NIR[f]: that's easy, write something in CL and then sell it 19:09:01 Well I know it sounds silly to learn CL to read SICP but I read that going from Scheme -> CL is harder than CL -> Scheme because Scheme is simpler in a lot of ways. 19:09:50 I had hoped that learning Lisp would give me a head start, and Scheme would be a smooth transition more or less. 19:09:58 Err, CL. 19:10:13 stassats: And who will buy this code? 19:10:16 SegFaultAX: not really. You'll write scheme with a CL accent. 19:10:29 NIR[f]: most people buy applications, not code. 19:10:42 or services 19:11:19 <_3b`> or ads 19:11:24 Would be fairly easy to build a webapp or something in CL and could market it as a service of sorts :) 19:11:40 *TDT* is visioning github 19:12:08 SegFaultAX: I started of with pcl & pg's book and I'm pretty happy workin with paip atm 19:12:22 M-m. Then, the second problem is graphical libraries. They're not well developed for CL AFAIK. Am I mistaking? 19:13:12 NIR[f]: that's somewhat true if you want to pay zero dollars. 19:13:45 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:14:02 clozure CL has an excellent bridge to the OSX graphics system. 19:14:20 commonQT looks very promising for other systems... 19:14:25 Or use abcl and tie in with java's libraries 19:16:00 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 19:16:12 this looks interesting: http://password-taxi.at/EQL 19:18:08 Is that a distribution or a library...looks like a distribution. 19:20:12 Avisch [~NONE@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:25 Hm Page title written partially in German. I don't know German well. :) But screenshots look beautiful. 19:20:30 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:21:13 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-hevpafspksuyslhf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:15 -!- Avisch [~NONE@cpe-24-93-16-141.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:28 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 19:21:29 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 19:21:29 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 19:23:06 That's one thing about CL I wish wasn't there, is so many different distributions. Having distributions specific for one certain area, such as graphic libraries, tend to follow the same issue Linux has. I'd be much happier with just a tiny number of distributions, and just trying to strengthen the libraries for the distributions out there rather than creating a new distribution. 19:24:01 distributions? 19:24:08 pkhuong: I think he means implementations. 19:24:27 Sorry, yeah getting linux and CL mixed up now, what sykopomp said 19:24:45 No, I could see the argument for "collections of software bundled together". 19:26:35 Yeah, and maybe it's not that big of a deal if one's using libraries to smooth out the differences between distributions, I don't know for sure. 19:27:31 TDT: I haven't found it that troublesome to write cross-implementation libraries. 19:27:40 TDT: it's just a library 19:27:49 and I quite like that I have a selection of implementations, depending on my needs. 19:28:05 although I can also see an argument for wanting the existing implementations to provide more. 19:28:44 I wouldn't even bother touching clisp if SBCL had a really nice delivery system that significantly shrank its runtime and slad images. 19:28:52 or you could focus on using the implementation you're currently using, and worry about portability later. 19:29:01 sykopomp: like bzexe? 19:30:02 pkhuong: I have not tried that one. I tried a couple of exe-shrinkers a while back, and it seemed like a crapshoot whether the resulting binary would even work. 19:30:44 plus, bzexe doesn't prevent the running image from taking up 50M+ once it's launched. 19:31:09 is it time for this discussion again? :) 19:31:10 oh, it's rsize you're worried about. 19:31:21 was the crapshooting dependent on the shrinker program or on the image? 19:31:26 I'd still like to see a tree shaker, but I don't think it's as interesting as I used to. 19:31:26 pkhuong: it's both distribution size, on-disk size, and rsize. 19:32:16 -!- ferada [~user@g224098167.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:32:45 davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has joined #lisp 19:33:04 pkhuong: I couldn't tell you specifics at this point. It was likely related to the shrinker program, though. 19:33:09 I haven't used clisp after finding out about sbcl...but I will admit, 50meg executables is like "ugh" 19:33:25 syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:52 TDT: apart from the psychological sticker shock, what's the problem? 19:35:32 pkhuong: depending on the kind of application, not everyone is going to feel very nice about having to download a 50M binary. 19:35:53 Transferring it from one system to another, mostly. It's mostly an issue if I'm at home coding and want to push it to a work machine (using the same distribution). 19:36:04 <_3b`> me could use a smaller RSS on my cheap VPS 19:36:22 pkhuong: for example, paktahn (a package manager for Arch Linux), has probably lost its share of users due to how huge the binaries are. 19:36:33 sykopomp: that's where compression comes into play. 19:36:41 hi 19:37:01 the ls program takes about 130k. No one would accept a 50MB ls command. 19:37:14 pkhuong: I find it obnoxious that a command line tool insists on sucking up 50M+ of RES. 19:37:18 pkhuong: I think my lisp images compressed to something like 26-30megs from the 50s...26 is still pretty big depending. 19:37:29 syntaxman: I'm honestly surprised if ls is even that big 19:37:35 CCL seems to eat less memory 19:37:40 Why should it be impossible to write small utilities in lisp without using 50MB 19:37:47 stassats: it's still somewhere in the SBCL ballpark. 19:37:52 TDT: I rounded up :-) 19:37:52 so ship the code. 19:38:06 syntaxman: 111k here, that still seems big..I'm surprised, haha. 19:38:07 You could compromise, and put 50 small utilities in one image. That would then average out to 1MB/utility! 19:38:09 Fade: which defeats the whole purpose of not requiring people to have to install and configure a lisp. 19:38:15 syntaxman: you are not taking libc into account 19:38:22 *Xach* wonders if you could get one MILLION utilities in an image 19:38:30 you are defeating that purpose when you ship a binary. 19:38:32 stassats: fair enough 19:38:36 <_3b`> libc argument only counts when i can ship an sbcl binary using the installed libsbcl :p 19:38:42 I think there is not trouble with core sizes actually. However, 19:38:52 I guess you could construct a double clickable runtime if you wanted to make it click'n'drool simple. 19:38:53 Xach: I think that depends on how much of a life the dev has :) 19:38:56 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 19:39:03 sykopomp: you know, _3b` is the only one who articulated a reason for preferring smaller rsize than 50MB. 19:39:55 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:02 if lisp was 'popular', how to manage so many programs on sbcl? a image for each programs is not good solution 19:40:39 and lisp startup time is not quite good in order to load programs on demand, I think 19:40:49 pkhuong: and not wanting a 50M+ res package manager for a minimalist linux distro is unacceptable? 19:41:37 If you were going to run several lisp progs at the same time, it would at least make sense if they could all use the same lisp runtime. 19:41:40 davazp: so, don't stop it 19:41:58 of course it is a question about a hypothetical situation :-), others troubles now 19:42:01 sykopomp: unacceptable *why*? (actually, why minimalism?) 19:43:08 I think UI is a serious problem to common lisp; so I doubt common lisp will ever become popular unless one of the lesser languages evolve towards it. 19:43:11 pkhuong: ...so it can run on machines with relatively limited resources (small VPS systems) without pushing things into swap? 19:43:36 ccl uses about 13 mb here with a number of libs loaded 19:43:37 I'm not saying that there are no valid reasons for wanting a smaller footprint, but so far, only _3b` has managed to express one that wasn't either an onomatopoeia or a feeling. 19:43:37 leo2007: I think cl-gtk2 solved it 19:43:45 pkhuong: Using 50M+ for simple applications is, honestly, unreasonable, and severely limits the scale to which Lisp can be used. 19:43:50 it's not like sbcl is the only option 19:44:13 it is good, though perhaps someone can write a higher level API on cl-gtk2 19:44:17 how large are ecl binaries? 19:44:23 If one wanted quick startup times, with lisp controlling most of it..I wonder if a daemon listening on a port that did some sorta web service support would be a simple way of doing that. I could see writing the frontend of the utility in Python or ruby, calling the service, the service does the job, returns the results as really a simple string which is then outputted by the script. 19:44:34 Fade: a couple of M, I think? 19:45:47 unreasonable is just an adjective like outrageous. You might be going for demagoguery; otherwise you should be able to articulate why it's unreasonable (and why it matters whether the application is simple). 19:46:23 pkhuong: I guess 'I've lost users, and seen other lisp apps lose users, because of it' is just not good enough these days. 19:46:53 nor is "I have to explain, each time, why this dumb command-line utility is devouring users' RAM" 19:47:18 if it's a barrier to use, then I guess it's a viable goal. 19:48:08 when I first came to CL the image size suprised me, but I don't really notice it any more 19:48:47 well, a cross-version portable binaries generated a'la sb-heapdump would be enough, IMHO 19:48:53 pkhuong: Using adjectives is fine. They are accurate adjectives. It's unreasonable because clear reasoning would lead one to realize that using more RAM than is needed is wasteful of the users' resources - whether they have plenty, or not. 19:48:53 sykopomp: you have the same issue with python/ruby/c#/java etc 19:48:53 we also tend to ship code, and not images. 19:49:01 davazp: could you name a few common lisp apps using cl-gtk2? 19:49:02 it significantly limits what sorts of things Lisp can be used for. My opinion is that it makes SBCL basically undeliverable for anything except very large applications where the size of other assets dwarfs the binary's size, or for server-side use where everyone having to do anything with the application is already pretty familiar with Lisp land. 19:49:07 (though I wish for time to workt on removing parts of image) 19:49:19 I don't build lisp images if I can help it, but that has to do with more portability of the lisp image than anything. I compile the image push it to another machine and having it fail for whatever reason is annnoying, I sitck with cl-launch a lot because of it. 19:49:22 pkhuong: plus there are minimalist and embedded systems that *need* everything to be efficient and small. 19:49:45 leo2007: it is a new library, but, could you name many new lisp apps? 19:49:46 xristos: C# and java, yes. python and ruby are already pretty small. They're on the same level as clisp/ecl there. 19:49:59 Komi [Komi@62.32.155.126] has joined #lisp 19:50:04 small ? not if you have to bundle everything 19:50:11 davazp: good point. lack of ui cut off 90% of apps. 19:50:25 xristos: aren't python/ruby binaries somewhere around 2-3M? 19:50:27 sykopomp: I can understand it being frustrating for a developer. A decent response would indeed be to try and make the executable smaller. Attempting to first understand *why* size matters to the user is likely to lead to better solutions, or at least a greater variety to choose from. 19:50:39 pkhuong: When you stonewall and pretend that everyone elses reasonable concerns are unfounded and just emotional, you ruin the opportunity to come to an agreement at all. 19:51:00 sykopomp: i haven't seen any self-contained python apps 19:51:04 syntaxman: no need to be rude. 19:51:08 konr`` [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 19:51:19 but python itself with nothing loaded uses 4 megs here 19:51:34 sykopomp: I was responding to the "demagoguery" remark. Not intending to be rude. 19:51:36 pkhuong: I understand what you're saying. These days, we have immense bandwidth. Even a 50MB download isn't that big a deal, and 50MB is a joke on modern hard drives. 19:52:03 sykopomp: ccl with nothing loaded needs 4.5 mb 19:52:06 leo2007: what do you mean? 19:52:08 thats not a big difference 19:52:10 sykopomp: except that low bandwidth high availability is much more common nowadays 19:52:16 sykopomp: for instance, if the problem is only rsize, I can imagine a VM-aided scheme to push most of the runtime to disk explicitly. 19:52:25 LiamH: which one? 19:52:32 -!- konr` [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:52:39 GSLL handling cblas? 19:52:41 sykopomp: many people use internet over cellular access, and believe me, 50 MB over 48kbit/s link isn't fun 19:52:52 leo2007: I agree, but I don't hope a UI library to improve this situation 19:53:01 pkhuong: I think a big part of the issue is a mixture of ease of distribution, and perceived complexity by users. 19:53:06 <_3b`> p_l: cellular links to machines that can run sbcl though? 19:53:27 _3b`: sure, like laptops. 19:53:31 pkhuong: I _have_ had experiences where people have outright refused to download a 10M compressed binary because the application was supposed to be too simple to warrant that much. 19:53:31 LiamH: I looked at the documentation of GSL and it mentioned it can linked to external cblas lib for performance. So how does GSLL handle this? 19:53:48 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:54:17 _3b`: I recall going for a dinner so I wouldn't go mad from looking at progress bar of Erlang OTP download :> 19:54:22 (it was ca. 40MB) 19:54:35 leo2007: Oh, I imagine transparently. I haven't figured out how to do that external linking, but I presume the libgslcblas interface would stay the same, in which case GSLL would be the same. 19:54:36 I think a prebuilt sbcl with batteries, e.g, sbcl+, included in major distributions would be nice :-) 19:54:40 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:15 davazp: a reliably usable one will. Emacs has a ui, people wrote org-mode and even historian learnt how to use Emacs in order to use orgmode. 19:55:27 it could include cl-ppcre, cl-gtk2, cl-opengl, etc. So small applications does not troubles with deployment and 19:55:37 4 megs is still too many for an ordinary utility. 19:55:44 there's also the issue of complexity of delivery for the user. 19:55:44 davazp: I hope to make something like that easy with quicklisp. 19:55:47 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.52.212] has joined #lisp 19:55:47 err, developer. 19:55:52 big systems could use classical approach yet 19:56:07 *Xach* is trying to get the new demo finished enough for more people to bang on it 19:56:22 *p_l* recalls people bitching about 750 kB GUI library that was statically compiled into executables... 19:57:13 lispm [~lispm@f054052040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:36 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:59:00 -!- lispm [~lispm@f054052040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:59:25 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has quit [Quit: TheEnd2012] 19:59:47 Xach: is it thought to help to new programers, or to do easy deplyoment? 19:59:52 maybe both 20:00:02 davazp: yes to both. 20:00:47 I will follow the project :-) 20:01:03 Xach: do you have any plans as far as submission of new systems and adding of 3rd-party repositories go? 20:01:18 sykopomp: yes 20:02:16 Xach: some sort of QA would be good. I like good documentation. 20:02:31 leo2007: read the source :\ 20:02:33 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:43 leo2007: It would be nice, and I like good documentation too. That won't be one of quicklisp's initial goals, though. 20:03:00 leo2007: Making it easy to find any documentation that exists would be nice, but that's also not an initial goal. 20:03:22 well, maybe it is. 20:03:25 sykopomp: There are half-finished CCL and ECL ports for paktahn by the way. We would like to get image size down one of these days. CCL just needs to catch SIGINT...but that appears easier said than done. 20:03:41 *Xach* is trying to balance push-out-the-door with all-the-nice-and-reasonable-initial-features 20:05:18 Xach: do you pack a sbcl (or other) or it is implementation-independient? 20:05:20 Xach: CTAN is a good example of good documentation. I usually never have to do much to get what I want. 20:05:28 redline6561: I've ended up settling with clyde. :\ 20:05:30 leo2007: implementation-independent. 20:05:40 sorry, meant for davazp. 20:06:03 sykopomp: No hard feelings. If the ECL port starts working better or CCL starts supporting signal handling, I'll let you know. :) 20:06:40 redline6561: well, then you'd lose the big performance benefit of using SBCL. 20:06:44 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsNBCSa9Ils Xach: trailer for my game in progress for the expo 20:06:53 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:58 dto: sweet! 20:07:33 marioxcc [~user@200.92.184.45] has joined #lisp 20:08:20 gonzojive__ [~red@171.66.52.212] has joined #lisp 20:08:29 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@c-75-68-111-84.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:43 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.52.212] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:58 sykopomp: did you see i have the project list on github? 20:10:18 Xach: I did not! 20:10:35 http://github.com/quicklisp has it 20:10:51 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:10:51 andreer has been helping add data 20:11:21 Xach: exciting! 20:12:10 Xach: following/watching. 20:12:47 sykopomp: For paktahn, I'd argue we're IO-bound as much as anything else. We might notice it some but I wouldn't think it's killing us. Then again, I'm a young/inexperienced/naive programmer much less lisper. 20:12:53 sykopomp: I have an idea about installing multiple sets of possibly-overlapping project releases, and a (hopefully easy-to-use) way to express a preference for one set over another, or an individual project from a set. 20:13:09 Xach: you mean versioning?? 20:13:18 ha ha ha, versions? in the common lisp world? 20:13:35 redline6561: it always depends on how cunningly vicious your packages' dependencies are (: 20:13:50 pkhuong: True. :) 20:13:55 AndroUser [~androirc@cpc2-hem18-0-0-cust473.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:32 dto: How far are you in the project so far? Still a long ways to go on our project. 20:14:43 Xach: releases, then? :< 20:14:51 pretty far, but i have a lot of stuff to work with 20:15:08 sykopomp: No, not at all. 20:15:08 sykopomp: -Releases-? In the common lisp world? 20:15:17 nyef: QuickLisp has them! 20:15:33 Sure, but a number of other things don't. 20:15:38 TDT: what are you working on? 20:15:48 *Xach* might have to pick new names 20:15:58 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:16:22 dto: I'm hoping we'll have something playable by the end fo this week, but it's going to be a lot of content we need to work on, not sure how long that'll take. Basically a merger of a MUD and a Roguelike, so it's totally textual based like a MUD, but single player and focuses a bit more on exploring and likely a little less on fighting. 20:16:42 hey cool. 20:16:45 wow. 20:16:45 sykopomp: in quicklisp-land, a "release" is a project at a state in time, and might come from a traditional release (like vecto 1.2.0) or a snapshot from the VCS. 20:17:08 *Xach* wonders if someone will finish Golgotha in Lisp 20:17:26 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-193-193.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:17:53 Xach: right, I've gathered that much. 20:17:56 -!- gonzojive__ [~red@171.66.52.212] has quit [Quit: gonzojive__] 20:18:11 Xach: it's nice, regardless, to be able to have a 'release' to point to from the quicklisp perspective of things. 20:18:24 even if the authors themselves insist on living in HEAD/trunk. 20:20:09 *Xach* has put off thinking about updates for now 20:24:50 Hm I like this conference! Maybe, it worth to visit it more often. 20:25:17 NIR[f]: The International Lisp Conference is also pretty awesome. 20:26:39 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:26:40 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.52.212] has joined #lisp 20:27:14 Isn't the lisp conference a dual-location, one being in Nevada or something? Still considering going to it this year. 20:27:43 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 20:28:04 TDT: No. It's sharing conference time and space with SPLASH (formerly OOPSLA). 20:28:06 > The International Lisp Conference 20:28:06 > Nevada, USA 20:28:06 I'm too far and have no money to visit it. :( 20:28:26 NIR[f]: you have a few months to write your awesome application and make dozens of dollars 20:28:33 -!- rkm1000 [62659c44@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.101.156.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:28:35 lodging in reno is cheap 20:29:06 Good evening everyone! 20:31:23 > NIR ; > Russia, Saratov province, Engels. I doubt someone in my location are able to earn "dozens of dollars" at such short time. 20:31:46 peterbb [~peterbb@13.181.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:31:55 And what is "reno"? 20:32:10 Place. 20:32:55 -!- cddr [~user@5ac75eca.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:10 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:13 I suspected that. 20:33:13 xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:33:20 It's a city in Nevada. 20:33:53 Usually the only place besides Las Vegas anyone has ever heard of... 20:33:56 Xach: Hmm, how is that going to work for the lisp converence. If sharing conference time will it be just pay one cost and go to both conferences during the sahred time? 20:34:18 Xach: Any idea what a ballpark fee to attend is (the conference/registration) not Reno, etc? 20:35:25 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:36:29 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 20:36:53 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 20:37:20 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:38:16 jmbr_ [~jmbr@149.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:39:07 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 20:40:07 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@149.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:40:07 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:47:28 lispm [~lispm@f054052040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:47 -!- lispm [~lispm@f054052040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:46 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@149.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:50:48 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:51:25 jmbr_ [~jmbr@149.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:52:39 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-28-82-250-188-152.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:52:40 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 20:52:57 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@149.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:53:36 jmbr_ [~jmbr@149.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:53:53 francogrex [~user@109.130.52.99] has joined #lisp 20:55:54 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:56:59 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Client Quit] 20:57:38 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:43 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 21:01:34 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.52.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:34 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@149.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:47 jmbr_ [~jmbr@149.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:02:25 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:43 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:10:52 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 21:12:52 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:14:00 *Lycurgus* wonders if google is pinned to a specific lang, completely lang agnostic or what? 21:14:44 Lycurgus: mostly, you have a choice of C, C++, Python or Java. 21:14:44 is there a ltk repo? 21:15:01 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:15:01 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:15:01 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 21:15:16 pkhuong, ah. Are you a googler? 21:15:59 makes sense though 21:17:25 jmbr__ [~jmbr@149.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:17:34 Nope, just that the question's been asked many times. 21:18:12 -!- hdurer [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:18:22 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75514b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:44 redline6561: not sure. it was a few hundred bucks for '09 in cambridge. 21:18:58 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-57-82-249-16-182.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:03 hdurer [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:41 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229175143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:19:42 Lycurgus: last time I checked, though, some group greenspun a lisp for their project (at google) 21:19:49 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@149.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:19:59 so officially it's Java, reality is lisp 21:21:05 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.198.168] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:21:23 I wonder if the ITA purchase is going to increase the standing of lisp inside google. 21:21:25 Xach: Thanks. 21:21:41 Fade: I sure hope so. 21:21:57 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:22:22 When I interviewed at google, they drilled into the lisp aspects of my resume pretty hard, even though there was a lot more python stuff there. 21:22:56 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 21:24:03 pkhuong, pl, in #haskell someone seemed to take offense at the question. Since google programmers are about the highest paid employee programmers I was naturally curious. 21:24:04 so they don't use their own programming language "go"? 21:25:06 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:20 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:25:40 kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 21:25:53 http://ileriseviye.org/blog/?p=1221 21:25:54 Lycurgus: Highest paid? I doubt that. 21:26:12 consultants are paid more. 21:26:48 According to Ken Aulettas book google programmers make between $100-300K. 21:26:58 I wish I could work at google, but I don't think I'm quite good enough at all this to apply and have a hope of getting in. 21:27:18 well, the interview process was the most intense I've ever seen. 21:28:17 Lycurgus: you wanted high pay? go for COBOL 21:28:28 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:28:39 and I said "among the highest paid employee programmers" 21:29:18 Lycurgus: a coworker of mine once mentioned a friend at IBM getting 360k (or similar) for programming 21:29:25 ah I see I said about when I meant among 21:29:34 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.52.212] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 21:30:06 yes, it's possible I did a lot of work at IBM in the 80s and 90s 21:30:26 more people seem to go for Google due to work environment, though I don't really agree on open space 21:30:28 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:30:32 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:41 they're much more focused on professional services now than they were then 21:31:09 the people who write programs for big iron in cobol and fortran make an unholy amount of money. 21:31:15 the IBM mainframe in particular. 21:31:58 of course, nobody would do the work otherwise 21:32:01 supply and demand. :) 21:32:19 a TPF programmer probably can clean the budget in few months... 21:32:50 some engineers in petrol industry get up to several thousands a *day* 21:33:02 I mean really, do *you* want to work on big iron cobol and fortran programs that were originally written in 1980 and hacked up by hordes of contractors for 30 years since then? 21:33:10 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:33:25 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 21:33:28 foom: depends on the money 21:33:31 if it pays $300/hr yes 21:33:37 exactly. 21:33:46 that's why it pays $300/hr. :) 21:33:48 heheh 21:33:58 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:25 in my case it's "if it pays enough that I do work for few months then enjoy books, flying and working on my own projects for the rest of the year" :D 21:35:02 my experience consulting in such environments is that when they finally bring in the contractor, they're up the creek, and the days aren't long enough. 21:35:13 which is good for the invoice, but not so much for the rest of your life. ;) 21:36:17 Fade: So you just take one or two of those jobs per year, which sets you up to take the rest of the time off. 21:36:29 It can work like that. 21:36:42 -!- xan_ [~xan@p50991b34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:39:44 Xach: have you used sheeple? 21:40:12 leo2007: what about it?... 21:40:36 I just found it. no experience yet. 21:40:52 ah. If you have any questions, let me know. :) 21:40:53 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:35 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-93230.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:43:16 sykopomp: the version numbers seem to indicate it is stable and usable, right? 21:43:40 leo2007: relatively, yes. 21:43:45 -!- NIR[f] [~root@188.92.198.81] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:43:47 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:44:02 It's not complete or mature in the sense that CLOS is, though. 21:44:28 -!- dfox [~dfox@r3ah44.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:44:54 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 21:45:25 -!- konr`` is now known as konr 21:47:40 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:48:29 So if there are functions missing from my stack trace on SBCL, I assume it's because they are somehow being optimized away or inlined. Anyway, to force them to show up? 21:48:59 minion: CHANT! 21:48:59 MORE DEBUG 21:49:03 <_3b`> compile with higher debug/lower optimize 21:50:13 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:51:07 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:52:50 NeverGone [~NeverGone@78-131-58-28.pool.hdsnet.hu] has joined #lisp 21:52:51 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 21:53:06 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:10 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:53:33 -!- NeverGone [~NeverGone@78-131-58-28.pool.hdsnet.hu] has left #lisp 21:54:36 -!- peterbb [~peterbb@13.181.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:54:37 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:55:55 -!- hdurer [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:58:12 ... So it occurs to me that I could "just" use search_dynamic_space to find the object that contains the program counter location, scavenge it, and rebase the program counter... Except that this is mid-scavenge, so that search_dynamic_space might not work. 21:58:49 Another option is to do two passes over the interrupt contexts, pinning the program counters on the first pass, then scavenging. 21:59:39 <_3b`> could you check the PC before moving things? 22:00:17 <_3b`> (which i guess could be a special case of pinning it depending on what you do if it matches) 22:01:24 or be ultraconservative: Don't move any objects that contain the pc value (: 22:01:45 <_3b`> actually, i guess that way would probably be more checks anyway, forgot about multiple PCs 22:03:13 *_3b`* goes back to playing with my toy pretend CPUs 22:04:12 leo2007: no 22:05:30 what do you call a user of sheeple, anyway? sociopath? 22:05:52 'a syko' 22:06:06 *sykopomp* is probably the only user. ;) 22:07:00 sykopomp: soon it will get quicklisp-fame! 22:07:05 Xach: <3! 22:07:24 Xach: is that kind of like lemonodor fame? 22:07:50 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:08:19 yes, except there are fewer people discussing jay-z 22:11:56 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:12:00 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 22:12:17 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 22:16:07 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:25 -!- Holcxjo is now known as hdurer 22:16:37 -!- hdurer [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:16:37 hdurer [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 22:20:40 -!- AndroUser [~androirc@cpc2-hem18-0-0-cust473.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:21:06 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has joined #lisp 22:23:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:23:35 mindCrime [~chatzilla@eth0-2.nmd.four.lax.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:42 -!- astalla [~astalla@93-36-229-113.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 22:28:34 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:36:28 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA992F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:16 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:39:42 lispm [~lispm@f054052040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:40:43 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:41 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc_AFK 22:43:15 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:36 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:44:39 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:36 -!- lispm [~lispm@f054052040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:41 what was the loop syntax for traversing graph nodes implemented as objects/struct; i want to "advance" by (node-parent x) 22:46:27 (loop for node = child then (node-parent node) do ...) 22:46:31 sort of like (do ((x node (node-parent x))) .. 22:46:41 cheers pjb! :-) 22:46:44 (loop for x = node then (node-parent x) do ...) 22:46:45 :-) 22:50:47 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:51:42 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 22:52:45 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-250-117.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:09 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:58:33 schoene [~user@cpe-65-189-214-151.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:21 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:05:56 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:06:31 -!- varjagg [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:31 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:21 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 23:08:02 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:08:44 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e2efb-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 23:08:56 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 23:10:16 kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 23:10:57 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:27 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:21:16 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:36 -!- sellout [~greg@212.234.38.214] has quit [Quit: sellout] 23:21:42 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-223-155.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:44 sellout [~greg@212.234.38.214] has joined #lisp 23:22:44 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:31 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:26:11 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:26:24 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:27:08 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 23:27:27 ef [~ihk@m83-185-20-45.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 23:28:02 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:28:56 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:30:51 -!- schoene [~user@cpe-65-189-214-151.neo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:32:20 -!- argiopeweb_ [~elliot@184.91.42.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:20 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:33:43 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:43:32 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:46:08 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.6] has joined #lisp 23:48:09 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:49:34 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 23:50:15 http://paste.lisp.org/display/112409 <-- I don't get it, what's wrong with this? 23:50:21 it seems perfectly cromulent to me 23:51:37 oooh, I see, it's not allowed when the non-local exit has a specific destination, such as an outer block? 23:52:40 It's not allowed when the "extent" of the entry has ended. 23:54:06 According to the spec, as soon as the unwind for a non-local exit begins, all of the possible unwind-targets between the current context and the current target are "abandoned" and can no longer be used. 23:55:05 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss152_w.htm has the details. 23:55:45 Essentially, the spec calls for MINIMAL, but most implementations actually go for MEDIUM. 23:55:52 (Which is easier to implement.) 23:57:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:58:08 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:59:03 mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has joined #lisp 23:59:54 -!- marioxcc_AFK is now known as marioxcc