00:02:06 -!- heyhey [512beecb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.43.238.203] has left #lisp 00:02:07 -!- sellout [~greg@111.Red-80-34-183.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:30 sellout [~greg@111.Red-80-34-183.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:53 -!- sellout [~greg@111.Red-80-34-183.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:38 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 00:05:01 sellout [~greg@111.Red-80-34-183.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:45 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-6-5.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:10:04 is there some portable library that allows creation of directories from lisp? 00:11:14 ensure-directories-exist isn't working for you? 00:11:41 i just found that. i was confused because there is an FAQ entry that says there is no portable way of creating a directory 00:12:05 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/faqs/lang/lisp/part2/faq-doc-19.html 00:13:35 -!- roygbiv [~JohnRambo@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 00:14:25 Can the lisp compiler detect recursive or cyclic macro expansion? 00:16:27 -!- sellout [~greg@111.Red-80-34-183.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 00:16:34 coyo|pingout [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:55 SegFaultAX: when I evaluate (progn (defmacro foo (x) `(foo ,x)) (macroexpand '(foo 1))), my REPL hangs, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a stack overflow in other situations. It would depend on the compiler of course, but I wouldn't expect the compiler to do anything more clever with macroexpansions that it would with analysis of other code. 00:18:41 SegFaultAX: macros can use arbitrary side effects, so there's pretty much no way to detect cyclic expansion 00:18:58 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:19:27 rme: thanks 00:20:15 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-46-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:20:19 -!- bandu [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:20:45 I see. 00:20:53 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:53 -!- prip_ [~foo@host163-125-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:53 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:53 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:53 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:53 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-141-180-34.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:53 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:20:53 -!- legis [~legis@unaffiliated/legis] has quit [*.net *.split] 00:21:25 Thanks tayloj and pkhuong for the explanation. 00:22:24 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 00:23:33 Is a p at the end of a function hungarian notation for a boolean return type? 00:24:10 Or a variable with a p postfix is a boolean? 00:24:37 it usually indicates a predicate 00:24:43 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:24:57 legis [~legis@204.97.199.6] has joined #lisp 00:25:31 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 00:27:21 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:22 Komi: How do you mean? 00:27:39 Komi: "Yes." 00:27:44 Er. 00:27:46 SegFaultAX: "Yes." 00:28:11 -!- Lis [~Lis@p5B206116.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 00:29:02 Got it. Thanks Odin- 00:29:05 SegFaultAX: Predicate basically means "function returning boolean". something-p basically means "is something true?" 00:29:07 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@rrcs-97-77-55-50.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:14 Odin-: Right, I just wanted clarification on "it usually indicates a predicate." Thanks for clearing that up. 00:31:48 SegFaultAX: however not all functions that end with "p" are predicates and not all predicates end with "p" 00:32:15 Komi: Is that a style thing or are there reasons for some and not others. 00:32:48 it's usually the data type predicates which do 00:32:57 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:06 like symbolp, listp, integerp and so on 00:33:45 and defstruct, by default, creates struct-name-p 00:33:55 but consider eq, eql, equal and equalp 00:34:02 tayloj: I'm not to structs yet. :) 00:34:49 -!- mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:50 it's more of a naming convention than a requirement 00:35:04 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:35:55 So as a general rule for readability, if I am dealing with predicate logic, functions or variables should use that convention. 00:36:34 prip_ [~foo@host163-125-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:36:44 Komi: Actually, you could argue that the equivalence functions aren't _strictly_ predicates; i.e., they don't check if a description is true for a thing... 00:37:12 well, predicate can also often mean a function of one argument returning a boolean, and in that sense eq, eql, etc, are relations, not predicates. Of course, that's not a hard and fast rule, as the binary function argument to sort, e.g., is a binary predicate 00:37:18 metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #lisp 00:37:24 Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-141-180-34.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:31 usually it's the unary ones that get a 'p' suffiux 00:37:33 *suffix 00:39:01 I'm speaking a bit more generally than CL, there, though. The CLHS glossary has predicate as any function that returns a generalized boolean (as its first value). 00:39:24 Odin-: i agree 00:39:45 cl is huge, there are number of exceptions to naming conventions, mostly because of historical reasons iirc 00:41:45 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:45:37 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:47:25 regarding the -p suffix, cltl2 explains it in more detail, here's a small overview of cl naming conventions http://www.cliki.net/Naming%20conventions 00:47:30 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 00:48:01 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:56 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:49:23 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:21 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-39-210.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:52:57 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BD90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:54:16 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-56-141.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:55:08 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:55:18 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-108-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:55:48 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:12 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:01:07 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@dsl-220-235-118-249.sa.westnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:06:13 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:14:27 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:14:31 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rread] 01:15:37 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:16:23 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.19.221] has quit [] 01:20:06 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 01:28:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:30:01 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:33:30 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-46-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:52 http://svrg.net/CL-Javascript 0.10.05.html <-- awesome 01:37:01 *manic12* agrees 01:40:04 my impression is that there was a tension between conventions in the dialects of Lisp that CL was trying to unify and consistency in things like ending predicates with p. I could be wrong, but that's what I have been told about some other inconsistencies. 01:41:28 Also, I can;t imagine how hard it must be to design a language by comittee. It's actually surprising that CL turned out as well as it did, IMHO. 01:41:52 -!- dfox [~dfox@rb5cd235.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:42:01 from what I've heard there were a few strong voices on the committee 01:42:11 I imagine that helps a lot ;) 01:42:53 but you're right, it must have been difficult to get everyone on the same page 01:42:55 And of course people had had a lot of experience in designing the Lisps CL was unifying. 01:43:14 Or at least trying tio unify... 01:46:00 -!- legis [~legis@204.97.199.6] has quit [Changing host] 01:46:00 legis [~legis@unaffiliated/legis] has joined #lisp 01:46:28 On the other hand the various institutions using those Lisps must have felt like there was a lot at stake in getting their version in, on some level. Probably mistakenly, in retrospect, but I do get the impression that one of the ideas behind CL was making a Lisp that could run code from all the dominant Lisps with only a bit of work... 01:48:59 absalom: very much so 01:50:24 The first chapter of AMOP is certainly really optimistic about that. one of the justifications for the MOP cited is allowing code from different CLOS predecessors to run in the same environment. 01:53:00 yeah, but that didn't really materialize afaik 01:53:14 Yeah, it was very optimistic. 01:53:22 for instance franz version of flavors is just lisp 01:53:24 -!- WoodenBoy [~WoodenBoy@87-194-114-233.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:53:47 With the benefit of the last 20 years of hindsight, it was ridiculously so, but of course they didn;t have that. 01:54:15 one thing that I have found out about mop, as neat as it is, is that you have to dig into non-mop code and optimize if you want it to go as fast as regular clos 01:54:59 it's great for language experimentation though 01:55:10 Yeah- I do wonder if our current ideas about efficiency are going to be useful much longer though. 01:55:23 in what area? 01:55:42 multicore multiprocessing? 01:55:45 Seems to me that the main wuestion in the future will be: can it be parallelized? 01:55:56 "In the future"? 01:56:03 well, the near future ;) 01:56:17 But I mean... "to 500 processors" 01:56:40 yeah that's a tender area for cl 01:56:45 indeed 01:56:53 *nyef* finds that his main optimization question recently has actually been "oh my god, what is all this junk, and how much of it can I eliminate?" 01:56:54 because CL has a lot of state 01:57:33 as hickey has pointed out, there need to be paradigm changes 01:57:59 Well, the spec is both a blessing and a curse, I guess... that's well-trod ground. 01:58:27 smp is not easy in any language, particularly CL 01:58:36 right nyef? 01:59:39 Well this is one case where Lisp is ideally situated to win, but where CL might impose a few impediments. 01:59:52 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:00:00 Clojure is interesting, but... 02:00:01 i'm so wired on caffeine 02:00:17 well I have only toyed with it, so I can;t really offer an informed opinion about it. 02:01:05 either Clojure needs to mature or I need to mature my understanding of it before I can be practical with it 02:01:11 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100625231939]] 02:01:31 Yeah, well it's pretty young 02:01:34 Lisp has the opportunity to do some incredible things with regards to parallelism. But CL doesn't, so much. 02:02:05 ski [~slj@c-e812e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:02:21 The thing is that my resistance to Clojure ,may actuallly be a resistance to models that really are necessary for highly parallel stuff... 02:02:35 nyef do you think that features from cl can be used? 02:02:36 I like to have mutable state without syntactic overhead. 02:02:49 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has joined #lisp 02:03:01 Sure, features from CL can be used. But, as you point out, CL has far too much mutable state. 02:03:18 -!- legis [~legis@unaffiliated/legis] has left #lisp 02:03:26 I would like to see a parallel language which can be embedded in CL and run on gpus and such 02:04:08 Clohure makes me feel like I am writing a lot of useless bookkeeping code in cases where I really don't care about being purely functional... 02:04:25 But like I said I haven't programmed enough in it to have a firm opinion of it. 02:04:51 ABsalom: Isn't that what macros are for? 02:05:13 Hmm.. I'm not sure they solve the problem here though... 02:05:40 start with a gpu language with parens and see where it goes... 02:06:12 But maybe I misspoke- it is less a matter of bookkeeping syntax than it is a matter of mandatory semantics. 02:07:01 One issue that causes problems with distribution is the anonymity of objects. 02:07:20 -!- ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:28 This is one area in which I think newlisp does a decent job. 02:07:46 Hmm- well Clojure is quite explixitly not designed to explixitly address distrubuted systems at the language level, I think. 02:08:01 err- explicitly... 02:08:23 i dunno 02:08:35 *manic12* scratches head 02:08:43 Anyway, I find Erlang, dor instance, even more uncomfortable than Clojure. 02:09:24 So as I say, this might well be my resistance to a tide that is irresistable. 02:09:32 one of the Erlang guys came and spoke to the bay area lisp meetup, i thought he had quite an interesting presentation 02:09:51 Erlang is awesome, conceptually. 02:10:14 And its model lets you do very intereting things. 02:10:25 just don't like writing procedures in it. 02:10:32 i don't think we need to sit down or especially not form a committee to solve the problems of parallelism 02:10:54 i think evolution will just happen 02:11:01 Well I'm not sure forming a comittee to solve parallelism would be very helpful... 02:11:18 yeah, exactly 02:11:32 in fact the more implementations of concurrent languages the better 02:11:40 But it will be painful, I think. Another case where there is no silver bullet. 02:11:43 You're saying that parallel language development should be done in parallel? 02:11:48 yes! 02:11:52 heh 02:12:12 It's mainly an issue of sensible divisions into discrete entities -- another area that lisps generally do poorly. 02:12:24 we're still understanding parallelism, it's a difficult subject 02:12:30 Actually, that's another area that newlisp beats CL/scheme in as well. 02:12:47 Hmm- I have never actually looked at NewLisp... 02:13:05 It has a bad reputation, and makes some weird design choices. 02:13:11 is it dynamically scope3d? 02:13:15 if i could ever find the time I would do ptx with parens 02:13:24 But they actually mostly make sense if you open your mind up a bit. 02:13:45 Yeah, it's dynamically scoped, but with partitions, iirc. 02:14:05 Hmm... 02:14:25 Well, I guess I will have to check it out. 02:15:04 I'm not recommending using it, but it's worth looking at, imho. 02:15:21 smp is pushing common lisp implementations to the limit, that part is for sure 02:15:28 Yeah, I meant it in that spirit. 02:16:07 manic12: implementations not so much as the very semantics. 02:16:12 I mean on one level you could probably build enough supersturcture on a CL implementation to emulate almost any model, but... 02:16:30 Well, CL assumes that everything is in the same place. 02:16:33 at that point you are just using CL as an implementation language for a nother language. 02:16:46 I think that's the most serious issue. 02:16:51 pkhuong: you're saying the semantics are the problem, if so, agreed. 02:17:52 clhs 2.1.2.1.2 02:17:53 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 2.1.2.1.2. 02:18:15 You'd want semi-transparent forwarding pointers, at the least. 02:18:57 what about all variables being thread local and all global state being in a transactional memory database 02:19:08 Zhivago: forwarding pointers? why? 02:19:10 (obviously not CL) 02:19:36 pkhuong: To establish copying boundaries. 02:19:57 *manic12* certainly hasn't thought about it as much as hickey or the erlang folks 02:20:06 pkhuong: Say that I want to copy 'agent X' to system Y. I need to know what part of the world is 'inside agent x'. 02:20:44 is this the explanation or the commentary of forwarding pointers? 02:20:57 because I have no idea what they are 02:21:00 maniac: This is answering 'why'. 02:21:14 can you do "what" next? 02:21:20 Zhivago: and why do you need to copy agents? Pass references to the agent. 02:21:58 pkhuong: Then you can't scale either computationally or in terms of i/o. 02:22:18 If I have a simple macro that uses &body body as a parameter, why do I need to splice it into the destination with @? 02:22:41 Zhivago: and forwarding pointers change that how? 02:22:43 manic: Think of symbolic links without the filenames. 02:23:03 chains of them? 02:23:06 SegFaultAX: because only you can tell where you can the body to go. 02:23:25 or just one level? 02:23:26 Well, then I can compute the transitive closure of the graph without forwarding pointers in order to work out what needs to get serialized. 02:23:36 pkhuong: Sorry can you explain that again? 02:23:44 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 02:24:06 manic: A symbolic link is a kind of unix file-system level forwarding pointer. 02:24:31 ok 02:24:53 pkhuong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/112331 02:24:54 manic12: except without as much optimisation opportunities (e.g. union-find style path compression in distributed systems) 02:25:04 segfault: &body produces a list ... do you want ((print 1) (print 2)) or (print 1) (print 2)? 02:25:35 I'm going to have to let this distill 02:25:36 SegFaultAX: oh, the question was "what is the difference between unquote (,) and unquote-splicing (,@)?" 02:26:02 ah- Zhiovago you must have some experience building garbage collectors... 02:26:08 pkhuong: Yea sorry. 02:26:20 Garbage collection is the other casuality of distribution :) 02:26:38 pkhuong: Or just why does body have to be spliced back instead of just quoted back? 02:26:59 Indeed.. but what I meant is that your way of thinking about this is very reminiscent of garbage collection. 02:27:04 SegFaultAX: read what Zhivago wrote. 02:27:05 I think there you end up really needing to separating the responsibility for tracing and collecting -- and making the application responsible for tracing by establishing periodic leases. 02:27:31 absalom: Well, forwarding pointers are used in some copying collectors. 02:27:46 Zhivago: Oh so the splice takes away 1 layer of () kind of? 02:28:01 clhs ,@ 02:28:02 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ,@. 02:28:07 There are some other abstractions though, I think... 02:28:09 Seg: Probably -- why not test it? 02:28:31 I wind up thinking about RDBMs systems a lot when I think about concurrency. 02:28:37 SegFaultAX: although thinking about it as textual substituion with parentheses erased is bound to lead to trouble. 02:28:40 Why? 02:29:23 Because they are a successful example of a highly concurrent systems. 02:29:39 But not distributed ... 02:30:10 Zhivago: really? I must be mistaken. 02:30:20 About? 02:30:23 OK, well I m separating concurrency from distribution in my thinking. Is that necessarily a mistake? 02:30:37 Zhivago: I've used databases distributed over multiple machines. 02:30:39 pkhuong: Well it's just an expansion of a list right? 02:31:06 absalom: Well, distribution implies concurrency, but not necessarily the other way around. 02:31:21 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@64.134.184.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:31:23 right... 02:32:22 pkhuong: That's pretty well irrelevant. You can distribute a lot of things across multiple machines badly. 02:32:30 though of course, to be pedantic, distribution doesn'rt becessarily imply concurrencyh, as the term is usually meant. 02:32:41 Of course as a practical matter it does. 02:33:44 absalom: As soon as you have distribution you have multiple temporal contexts and need to accomodate overlap or pay a lot. 02:33:57 Yes, but you can of course pay a lot. 02:34:23 If you're mentally retarded you might think that running only one machine at a time is a good idea, sure. 02:34:33 pkhuong: In this example do I need the splice because the use of &body (&rest) causes everything to get wrapped into a single list, and you need to remove that wrapper by @splicing it? 02:34:38 But, as a practical matter your system would not be distributed if you didn;t desire concurrency. 02:35:05 absalom: The example of non-concurrent distribution is persistence. 02:35:32 Sending a copy into the future to be opened after your death. 02:35:34 I think I qualified that by saying that I agreed that in practice it was true. 02:36:02 Lots o things that are true in theory would only be put into practice if you were retarded. 02:36:25 Or an MSCE. 02:37:32 On the other hand, it is an interesting question... 02:37:49 Is there anyh case in which you would want a sequential distributed system? 02:38:20 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:39:09 At the point where you want a sequential distributed system, why do you want the distribution? 02:41:21 What is a sequential distributed system? 02:42:28 -!- absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:42:35 nyef: You might want persistence -- which is distributing to a time after your own death. 02:42:38 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:42:50 absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:36 meh, my internet connection is new, and goes down occasionally... 02:44:31 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:41 I can't think of anything that would make distribution necessary in the absence of parallelism, but I can think of a lot of things that might be convenient. 02:46:41 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:47:19 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:47:54 Snamich [~Snamich@166.189.39.192] has joined #lisp 02:51:05 -!- absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:51:49 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:53:00 absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:52 roygbiv [~none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 02:59:19 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.79.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:03:11 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:51 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:06:47 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:07:00 ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 03:10:32 xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has joined #lisp 03:13:23 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:15:32 there's also performance. It may be simpler to distribute code around than data, for instance. 03:16:07 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-179-217.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: I wish the toaster to be happy, too.] 03:26:37 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.153.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:27:46 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:28:18 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:28:44 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:50 xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has joined #lisp 03:31:23 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:32:51 -!- absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:34:06 -!- silenius [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:34:36 silenius [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:57 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:37:30 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:39 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:42:30 felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-198-24.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:26 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:48:05 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-102-6.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 03:49:21 -!- roygbiv [~none@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 03:54:38 symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:49 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:58:28 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@rrcs-97-77-55-50.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:59:32 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-228.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 03:59:37 xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has joined #lisp 03:59:42 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-108-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:00:33 absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:54 tcr [~tcr@115.132.79.190] has joined #lisp 04:07:13 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-198-24.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:31 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09:23 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:11:07 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@rrcs-97-77-55-50.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:48 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:16:22 rirombo [~rirombo@h43.180.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:34 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:18:11 grrrr, ccl was able to shuffle a million integers in milliseconds but it's taking it 5+ minutes to print the result (it hangs) 04:18:22 who is to blame for this; emacs, win32 or ccl? 04:19:42 the user? :P 04:20:32 A good trick is (null (some-big-computation-whose-results-take-forever-to-print)) 04:21:10 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.159.212] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:21:16 (just joking about the user part, btw) 04:23:23 -!- mqt [m@lambda.nirv.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:23:40 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:24:16 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-195-53.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:34:55 fusss, why not output them to a file instead, should be faster 04:35:17 blame slime, then emacs, and lastly ccl 04:36:28 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 04:37:41 Nice try, you almost made me want to come up with numbers 04:37:59 ysph [~user@adsl-221-198-178.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:04 -!- davazp [~user@83.55.180.105] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:48:06 mqt [m@lambda.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:06 -!- mqt is now known as Guest25764 04:48:22 sileinius_ [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:39 -!- silenius [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:48:53 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:48:58 -!- sileinius_ is now known as silenius 04:49:16 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:54:08 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 04:56:39 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:58:36 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:59:27 -!- zbigniew [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:00:00 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 05:00:17 zbigniew [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:25 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:13 rme: heh, thanks :-) had to step out for a bit 05:11:22 and fwiw, my naive vectors-only implementation of drustenfeld is beating the pants out of alexandria:shuffle 05:13:45 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 05:16:45 shuffling a vector of integers is a time-critical operation for you? 05:17:15 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.224] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 05:19:44 no, it's a benchmark 05:20:33 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-46-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:20:53 and not a benchmark of anything useful, just trying to build a small toolkit to play with graphs 05:21:40 i have been trying to have a nice library of "containers" for the last years, but always end up writing something app specific, hastly and badly 05:24:23 what kind of containers? 05:25:45 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:30:45 xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has joined #lisp 05:32:14 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:32:35 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-198-68.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:33:02 tcr: it would be an impressive feat for SLIME to somehow be faster than the layers it's built on top of :) 05:35:04 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has joined #lisp 05:35:28 actually it's very slow as one of my last mails complained about 05:36:52 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has quit [Client Quit] 05:38:56 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:39:20 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:38 *fusss* stops collecting trillion integers in a loop 05:40:12 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:22 toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:28 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 05:40:36 hefner: by "container" I meant some generic data structures and algorithms that operate on user supplied units of data, which most comparison and termination predicates are user supplied callbacks 05:40:42 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:40:46 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has joined #lisp 05:40:47 the stuff you see java people use 05:42:48 I'd hoped you'd be more specific. 05:45:07 most of the stuff is obviated by CL's sequences and its subtypes, but right now i am itching for a graph library 05:45:46 understandable. 05:46:21 graph permutation, bipartite graph, spanning trees, searching in various ways, partitioning, connectivity test, etc. 05:48:31 *hefner* thought slyrus wrote a graph library of some sort, but can't locate such a thing 05:48:46 -!- rme [~rme@pool-68-238-7-51.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:51:41 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-228.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 05:52:03 bytecolor [~user@adsl-71-137-195-53.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:11 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 05:53:25 when compiling a file I get the error: don't know how to dump [Bb] (default MAKE-LOAD-FORM method called). 05:53:35 [Bb] is defined like: (set-macro-character #\[ #'make-ppcre-character-class-scanner) 05:54:05 hefner: thanks, but i am not itching to use one, rather, to *write* one :-D 05:54:09 it works find if I just load, but not compile 05:57:18 I have a print-object method on the object returned by [foo] that prints the exact input so [foo] => [foo], instead of # 06:01:49 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 06:02:40 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]] 06:03:08 bytecolor: if something is broken at a certain situation, and works in another, it's a usually a sign that you have a top-level form that should be wrapped in an eval-when 06:03:31 paste a minimal snippet 06:04:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-4.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:04:33 fusss: nod, I found that part about wrapping set-macro-character in eval-when, which I have done, but it didn't help. 06:04:50 what sort of eval-when? 06:04:53 -!- e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:04:58 hrm, a miminal snippet would take a while ;) it's a beast 06:05:00 -!- AqD|Home [~aqd_home@122-116-21-207.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:05:17 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 06:05:34 nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 06:05:41 fusss: well any code directly related to the (set-macro-character !\[ #'make-ppcre-character-class-scanner) 06:06:07 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@209-6-50-99.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:06:08 #\[, that is 06:06:16 e-future [~e-future@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 06:06:25 i typically avoid messing with reader macros; premature syntactic sugar is the root of all eval! 06:07:13 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@rrcs-97-77-55-50.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:07:23 fusss: I never mess with it either but this syntax is for an embedded language 06:08:27 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:08:53 your embedded language needs to be nice s-expy! m-p-c-c-s doesn't look like a stock cl-ppcre function; did you write it yourself? 06:09:12 i would post a snippet 06:09:34 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-128-172.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:09:37 Good morning! 06:10:07 hey beach 06:10:36 hrm, maybe I could create a seperate package with just the reader syntax, and a file that uses the syntax. To post. 06:11:42 I wrote the reader func, it just returns a string that is used by cl-ppcre 06:12:06 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-123.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:41 actually based on someone elses #/foo/ reader syntax for more general regular expression reader syntax 06:13:28 ok, lemme see if I can put something small together 06:14:30 -!- Guest25764 is now known as mqt 06:14:37 i really wish CLtL2 had the removal notices at the start of each subsection, not at the end of it. "X3J13 voted on June 1989 to remove X" should be at the start of X's section, so I can skip it. 06:15:26 i prefer to remain in ignorance, instead of laboring to *return* to it. 06:15:43 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-137-198.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:15:56 I kinda enjoy reading some of that, just for the historical context 06:15:57 AqD|Home [~aqd_home@122-116-21-207.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:57 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:17:58 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:09 well, I think COMPILER-LET could fix your woes then. get yourself an ancient CL and hack away. 06:22:12 bytecolor: Do you know about named-readtables? 06:23:20 tcr: no, not even a little 06:23:28 but I can read! ;) 06:23:36 minion: named-readtables 06:23:37 named-readtables: Named-Readtables is a library that provides a namespace for readtables akin to the already-existing namespace of packages. http://www.cliki.net/named-readtables 06:23:58 dabd [~dabd@a85-139-97-135.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 06:25:16 -!- rirombo [~rirombo@h43.180.131.174.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has left #lisp 06:26:39 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-231-102-232.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:26:39 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:28:18 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:36 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:31:26 Does sbcl not take .sbcl/systems/ into account anymore with asdf2? 06:32:17 xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has joined #lisp 06:33:32 I'm still using the old asdf 06:34:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-170.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:35:32 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-221-198-178.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:35:52 Cowhm [~Cowhm@c-24-6-240-176.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:06 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-99-210.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:36:34 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 06:38:00 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:41:42 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e6932-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:41:48 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e1a49-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 06:43:15 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:43:19 schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:43:19 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 06:43:19 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 06:45:08 reader macro not compileable: http://paste.lisp.org/display/112336 06:45:47 compileable? heh 06:48:41 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 06:49:17 morning everyone. I think we just had the hottest summer in the UK. 06:50:46 I've got a fan in my window set on maximus-blastus 06:55:13 100 degrees in washington d.c :-/ 06:55:29 seriously? 06:55:35 yep 06:56:10 I thought you fled that miserable hellhole 06:56:43 came back 3 weeks on a visa run; gonna take 3-6 months, took a dev gig with a local startup 06:57:05 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:06 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:57:38 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:51 -!- Cowhm [~Cowhm@c-24-6-240-176.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05:48 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-59-198.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:36 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-123.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:07:39 Beetny_ [~Beetny@ppp118-208-7-48.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:46 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:10:25 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-59-198.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:10:25 -!- Beetny_ is now known as Beetny 07:14:49 it's 59 degrees in oakland 07:17:50 manic12: no fahrenheit, please. kelvin 07:17:50 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:18:18 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:21 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 07:20:35 i think thats about 288 if you must have kelvin 07:21:01 i don't do math well tired though 07:21:05 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:21:26 There must be a web site for converting those things. 07:21:48 i did it by hand (by repl) 07:22:01 then checked against a website 07:22:08 and added 273 07:22:37 I'm not fond of Kelvin, mainly because when it's -20 F you can bundle up and get through it, but when it's -20 Kelvin... 07:22:38 http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/bltempconvert.htm 07:23:23 xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has joined #lisp 07:23:24 right 07:23:55 don't ask me what time it is in berlin though 07:24:00 beach: google "convert 59 F to C" 07:24:07 i know it's morning there thats all 07:24:13 hmm- are you in Berlin? 07:24:37 who are you talking to? 07:24:46 tanami [~rlynow@150.101.97.171] has joined #lisp 07:24:51 There must be a Berlin Iowa, Berlin Texas, etc. 07:25:01 absalon: then you know that you failed physics. 07:25:04 you- you're the one who metnioned Berlin, so of course I am talking to you 07:25:07 berlin iowa is 2:24am 07:25:21 i also mentioned oakland silly :) 07:25:43 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@rrcs-97-77-55-50.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:25:49 There really *is* a Berlin Iowa? I made that up! 07:25:51 berlin Iowa doesn't count when you just say Berlin- you have to wualify that with the Iowa package. 07:25:57 hell if i know 07:26:02 -!- tanami is now known as Tanami 07:26:09 if there is a berlin iowa it's nearly 2:30 am 07:26:45 which makes it 12:25am oakland time 07:26:58 way past my bed time 07:27:03 I don't approve of geomonkeypatching 07:27:47 well i don't approve of monkeygeopatching 07:28:00 hmm- that I'm kind of fond of... 07:31:04 what time is it beach? 07:31:26 09:30 07:31:42 are you near berlin? 07:31:52 100 F isn't unheard of. Beijing can be about 108 F at times. 07:31:57 manic12: Compared to you, probably yes. In the same time zone anyway. 07:32:31 leo: you are near Beijing? 07:32:55 -!- silenius [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:32:56 I did my undergrad there. 07:33:14 i've noticed that german speakers speak better english than me which is bad since english is my native language 07:33:28 I am in the NE US- It has been over 100 here recently wchich is hotter than usual 07:33:50 .global-warming. 07:33:57 Hmm- they speak better formal English maybe, but... 07:34:26 "than I". 07:34:32 see 07:34:38 manic12: when I was in forbidden city last summer, I met many foreigners speaking better Mandarin than me. 07:34:47 no, you were right. "than ME" 07:34:51 Well, you're American, aren't you? No-one expects you to speak English anyhow. 07:34:53 meh- I was in Florda until Jan 13- it was below 25 F 10 nights in a row there... 07:35:03 yes, i'm merkin 07:35:06 id that global cooling? 07:35:15 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-102-6.revip.asianet.co.th] has left #lisp 07:35:27 Weather != climate 07:35:32 "than I" is grammatically incorrect; people say that to sound smart because they think "me" is somehow juvenile sounding 07:36:18 so I am a juvenile sounding proper english speaker? 07:36:19 I have learnt not to care about grammar rules. 07:36:23 cool 07:36:56 i have forgotten whether to use "whom" as a subject or an object 07:37:06 when the rules of grammar conflict with usage, usage is correct, IMHO.. 07:37:39 after all, where did the rules come from? 07:37:41 manic12: NO. you spoke proper english until Zhivago decided to butt in 07:38:13 i could have sworn though that misunderestimated was not a word until bush (W) became president 07:38:15 wo zai daxue de shihou wo xue le liang nian zhongwen.. 07:38:24 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:38:29 keshi hen chang shijian wo mei shuo le,,, 07:38:33 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has joined #lisp 07:38:40 absalom: pinyin without tones sucks! 07:38:47 i'm not seeing the font 07:38:48 I agree ;) 07:38:55 absalom: you are good. I understood that. 07:39:10 absalom: Na ge da xue? 07:39:20 But I have no idea how to do pnyin with them in a universal way in IRC 07:39:21 wo ye shi zhonguo de 07:39:27 NOT! :-D 07:39:51 fusss: that's confusing. 07:39:59 VBetyonf which, I wonder how many people I would crash if I started typing Japanese... 07:40:27 leo2007: i tried to say "I am also from China". didn't "ye" mean "also"? 07:40:30 さあ、、、 07:40:48    07:40:51 absalom: that's not UTF8 07:40:55 apparently not very many 07:40:55 fusss: wo ye lai zi zhongguo would sound better. 07:40:58 and this is very OT 07:41:08 leo2007: thanks :-) 07:41:38 fusss: I bet if you write it in Japanese I can at least understand 50%. 07:41:38 i can speak cat 07:41:46 fe: it is whatever the wiondows IME decided Japanes should be represented as, which is pretty m,uch the standard now... 07:42:26 leo2007: i am not the japanese speaker, absalom is. my scribble was arabic. 07:42:28 In other words it is almost certainbly wrong. 07:42:30 Probably shift-jis or something horrible like that. 07:42:54 fusss: sorry. 07:42:54 Hmm- actually I doubt it is shift-JIS 07:42:56 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 07:43:00 Zhivago: so are you gonna let that one just slide without an apology? ;-) 07:43:29 so when is the last world cup game or did i miss it? 07:43:57 manic12: in 10 hours, 46 minutes and 01 second 07:44:01 fuss: Your error? 07:44:09 fuss: Yes. I thought it would be kinder. 07:44:24 fusss: are you native speaker of Arabic? 07:44:41 i use arabic numbers 07:44:46 no, learned it very young though; ~12 years old 07:44:49 But I bet there is a "conversion ;ayer" built into win that might indeed convert it to shift-JIS occasionally, for the hell of it. 07:45:15 manic12: i use hindi numbers 07:45:40 I have all of my windows systems set to Japanese as the main lnguage and... they still do really weird things to Japanese. 07:45:45 both of them? 07:46:10 manic12: not the last game but the penultimate, for 3rd place. germany vs uruguay, both Suarez and Mueller are playing. 07:46:34 when is the holland spain game? 07:46:55 The Japanese have been slow to adopt unicode. Mostly due to disliking the font they used to print the standard. 07:47:04 I'm kind of on the poit of telling everyoine who is Japanese that thyte just have to learn English, but that's hard to pul off with clients. 07:47:10 manic12: sunday 07:47:39 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.10.121] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:47:47 i have to cheer for holland or else get fired 07:48:10 exactly 07:48:11 absalom: you're one of many jexpat lispers i know 07:48:36 absalom: Just tell them that they need to catch up or they'll get overtaken by Korea. 07:49:39 Suarez is the hand ball foot ball player? 07:49:45 manic12: yes 07:49:57 I'm not an epat in Japan, actually- I am, I guess, a Canadian expat in the states... but I soeak enough Japanese to ge3t by, wchich is not that common among programmers, I guess. 07:50:37 a man who knows his probability well. Changed the P(goal) from 1 to 0.75. 07:50:54 woo hoo, I think I figured it out. The compiler didn't know how to write the object to the .fasl because I didn't supply a make-load-form method. 07:51:10 yeah, it was some clever cheating 07:51:28 yes- ot'd more important to typr quickly and be understood than to type precisely and be respected. 07:51:50 *fusss* is looking for some DIY way to verify the randomness of a large sequence. diehard is not that i want. 07:52:32 tomorrow I shall hack, tonight - too tired -- 07:53:55 i should make a list of all the cool projects i will probably never do 07:54:11 fiveop [~fiveop@g229110006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:54:20 and hope someone else does them 07:54:48 who's going to write me a lisp->ptx assembler, for instance? 07:54:59 sellout [~greg@111.Red-80-34-183.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:17 er i guess that's actually a compiler of sorts 07:56:22 you should make a list of those programs and put them on your list 07:56:59 push bq-list stuff list 07:57:40 If I had a nickel... 07:59:10 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@rrcs-97-77-55-50.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:00:04 this is what happens when you have about five shots of espresso 08:00:28 you start annoying people in berlin 08:00:49 amazing the internet 08:01:25 when I inspect an object, I see "Effective Slots: # [finalize]" 08:01:29 hmm- the entire internet? 08:01:38 what does 'FINALIZE' do? 08:01:53 it gets a class ready to make instances 08:02:19 specifically it computes the cpl and then the effective slots 08:02:54 <_3b> manic12: http://github.com/angavrilov/cl-gpu not close enough to ptx for you? 08:03:07 manic12: cheers. 08:03:59 i love it when _3b unleashes information upon #lisp 08:04:06 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 08:04:15 _3b: sweet 08:04:31 *_3b* hasn't tried it yet, but looks interesting 08:04:42 *_3b* started an opencl binding once, but didn't get very far :( 08:04:46 i wonder if it's the same guy on linkedin who was talking about it 08:06:09 -!- sellout [~greg@111.Red-80-34-183.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 08:06:59 now push on to the list cl-gpu programs to do lapack type cruft 08:08:00 i may try to port some of my finite element code to gpu if i ever get time 08:08:23 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:09:20 _3b, sbcl has an fwrapper system probably, right? 08:10:31 abhaya [abhaya@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-tprwmvckfsuomdbv] has joined #lisp 08:10:48 Is this a place to discuss Racket, or is this specific to CL? 08:11:08 because i was thinking that instead of recompiling your opengl program to not use geterror use fwappers 08:11:19 please discuss Racket 08:11:31 not that I'll have a clue though 08:11:33 manic12: Hmm. 08:11:40 <_3b> manic12: google says http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/Fwrapper i don't know anything beyond that 08:12:05 <_3b> #scheme would probably be a better place to talk about racket, assuming they don't object there 08:12:24 <_3b> this channel focuses on CL 08:12:24 _3b: So this channel is CL centric? 08:12:26 Right. 08:12:28 yeah, please steal this idea, i definitely owe you some 08:12:40 sorry abhaya 08:12:53 would have liked to hear how scheme grew into a racket 08:13:07 <_3b> manic12: don't think that would help, since i think most cl-opengl functions are inlined 08:13:33 can't you trace inlined functions? 08:14:14 <_3b> also, sbcl isn't the only target for cl-opengl 08:14:29 maniac: By the incremental work of the plt team. 08:14:34 i know, but i already know that acl has fwrappers 08:14:46 And probably a growing disillusionment with the scheme standards process. 08:14:49 <_3b> if you have something that solves the problem more nicely for your lisp of choice that doesn't require too much #+ it could probably be added 08:14:57 i had a plt scheme roommate once 08:15:46 manic12: Was he a maniac? 08:15:52 _3b, what is your strategy for extension functions on windows and linux which require (glx|wgl)GetProcAddress? 08:16:07 no, i was the maniac 08:16:16 he worked on the debugger though 08:16:17 <_3b> there is a variable which should be set to soe function that works like one of those 08:16:37 Why do people prefer CL over Scheme/Racket? Library support, perhaps? 08:16:41 <_3b> (either one of those directly, or sdl_getProcAddress, or glfw... or whatever) 08:17:00 *_3b* likes lisp-2 better than lisp-1 08:17:04 packages. 08:17:28 manic12: Hmm. 08:17:31 <_3b> don't remember if there was anything else, or just that i happened to find PCL at the right time 08:17:34 That can't really be the only reason. 08:17:43 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:45 _3b's reason 08:18:23 Ah. 08:18:52 -!- rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:18:59 so what happens if you have a window with one pixel format running in one thread and a window in another thread with totally different pixel format calling the same extension functions? 08:19:20 <_3b> in that case, you need to fix cl-opengl :/ 08:19:35 <_3b> there is a comment about it somewhere in the code 08:19:39 ic 08:19:48 <_3b> just sonething that hasn't happened enough for anyone to bother fixing it 08:20:00 <_3b> (particularly since fixing it portably + efficiently will probably be hard) 08:20:11 well, i hacked something together in acl, but it uses acl ff internals and it's not pretty under the hood 08:20:31 <_3b> and possibly require more communication between cl-opengl and whatever created the context 08:20:36 rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 08:20:36 -!- rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:20:50 use thread locals 08:21:06 <_3b> yeah, that is one idea 08:21:44 yeah, the exensions thing was a thorn in my side so i hacked that first 08:22:30 i'm working on a layer (in lisp) similar to sdl video 08:27:21 rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 08:28:27 _3b, it was frustrating to find out that SDL 1.3 doesn't support shared contexts 08:28:52 most of the cruft I write for opengl uses that feature 08:29:20 *_3b* hasn't bothered with it 08:29:28 <_3b> (multiple contexts) 08:29:37 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:29:53 *manic12* is sad that _3b doesn't spend a lot of time opengl hacking these days 08:29:59 <_3b> i'd rather focus on trying to keep the app running, rather than share data between runs 08:30:08 *_3b* too 08:30:47 i guess i want to have a lot of opengl windows simultaneously 08:30:59 got smp on my mind 08:31:13 <_3b> yeah, i might behave differently in that case 08:31:32 you or it? 08:31:46 <_3b> though i'd probably still mostly use the same pixel formats between windows 08:31:56 yeah 08:32:01 <_3b> i mean i'd be more likely to use multiple contexts if i had multiple windows 08:32:07 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:32:09 but anything goes in lisp 08:32:27 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:33:05 plus these days lots of people have multiple video cards & monitors 08:33:15 peg->cl http://paste.lisp.org/display/112341 08:33:22 *_3b* would expect more people to be using multiple monitors from 1 card 08:33:30 true 08:33:31 read a peg file, ouput a parser in cl 08:34:05 <_3b> and then a good chunk of the multiple-card people to be running multiple of the same card 08:34:06 but you never know 08:34:06 I ran dual monitors for a long time, but I used two cards 08:34:10 <_3b> (or at least same vendor) 08:34:24 i can just see the sprs 08:34:54 "why does your friggen program segfault when i do this?" 08:34:55 <_3b> right, i wouldn't deploy a mass-market app that wanted multiple monotor support on windows without multiple contexts... but i'm not going to worry about it for random hacks :p 08:35:45 _3b, a true visionary 08:35:52 :P 08:36:09 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 08:36:33 i can't wait until this whole getprocaddress crap goes away 08:36:37 *_3b* currently focuses on flash for mass-market deployment 08:36:45 *_3b* wouldn't expect it to go away 08:36:47 -!- abhaya [abhaya@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-tprwmvckfsuomdbv] has left #lisp 08:36:55 <_3b> extensions are an important part of OpenGL 08:36:57 getprocaddress? 08:37:11 <_3b> (and MS isn't likely to start cooperating any time soon anyway) 08:37:27 i know, the suck sometimes 08:37:30 they 08:37:42 <_3b> right, getProcAddress (not that i expect flash to go away either) 08:38:33 well i don't feel bad for working on this then 08:38:56 apparently with apple you don't have to call getprocaddress 08:40:19 <_3b> you also don't get new features without waiting on Apple though 08:41:44 <_3b> (that might not be too bad though, since Apple presumably cares about GL, and controls the platform so can do whatever they want) 08:42:01 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 08:42:23 I find this essay insightful http://www.drdobbs.com/high-performance-computing/200000266;jsessionid=XHKDTZYV5SSEZQE1GHPSKHWATMY32JVN?pgno=5 08:42:24 dfox [~dfox@rb5cd235.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 08:42:28 any idea who wrote it? 08:42:29 it's not like you can get an apple with a quadro afaik 08:43:20 <_3b> leo2007: presumably the person named after 'By ' just below the title? 08:43:48 strong possibility 08:44:23 I wonder if that's a pseudo-name. 08:44:33 like "manic112" 08:44:50 when I googled for the name, the first entry was richard gabriel 08:45:01 I don't know why people think that Apple has a particuoarly open platform, I have to support Wimdows, OS X, and inux with my current priject, and it is always OS X that is the pain in the ass. 08:45:05 -!- AqD|Home [~aqd_home@122-116-21-207.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:23 with windows a close second? 08:45:36 *_3b* suspects they all compete actively for that honor 08:45:37 well, I guess it depends on gou baseline ;) 08:45:54 But yeah, since I consider the Linux version canonical... 08:46:05 <_3b> though osx is the most expensive to support if nothing else :/ 08:46:17 <_3b> (at least if you follow the license and only run it on real mac hardware) 08:46:48 But for instane I do a lot of Gl in this app... 08:47:07 and, every time, stuff just fails to render under OS X... 08:47:24 extensions not present? 08:47:36 Nah, I mean really basic GL... 08:47:54 like g;_draw_lines 08:47:57 *_3b* 's biggest problem with OSX is the silly 'first thread only' stuff 08:48:40 I have done a ;oty of dead chicken debuggin to make things work under OS X recently... 08:49:44 what's that _3b? 08:50:05 *manic12* hasn't touched a mac in years 08:50:10 basically we wave a dead chicken at it until it works, and then we commit and never touch that code again. 08:50:37 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-102-6.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:51:27 But that describes a few thigs in ourt development... 08:51:31 what is the first thread only "stuff"? 08:51:49 you need to run certain things on the initial thread only. 08:51:54 We recently discovered that x.y().z() broke everything, but.. 08:52:07 hi antifuchs 08:52:07 <_3b> right, like even /loading/ the glut library from any other thread crashes 08:52:12 hi manic12 (: 08:52:12 a=x.y() 08:52:25 b=a.z() 08:52:28 worked... 08:52:49 something sounds rotten about that 08:52:54 I really wish I had access to that code... 08:53:21 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:53:22 you should give me the heads up on that issue antifuchs, because you may see this code 08:53:33 manic12: dunno, I know a bunch of gui toolkits that don't like threads altering GUI elements simultaneously (: 08:53:39 mcclim used to be one of them, I think (: 08:53:43 <_3b> particularly fun on lisps like CCL that grab the initial thread for their own use, or when using SLIME configured to start a new thread for most evaluations 08:53:56 Unfortunately it's locked away in the premiere (and basically only) animation package... 08:55:45 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:08 AqD|Home [~aqd_home@122-116-21-207.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:08 CLIM may not be thread-safe when multiple threads access the same objects, but that's not very surprising on usual. CLIM is actually nice in that it allows multiple independent threads to make their _own_ objects at least. 08:56:08 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 08:56:22 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-73-98.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:59 that's reasonable 08:57:06 <_3b> yeah, only working from 1 thread at a time wouldn't be so bad, as long as I get to pick which thread 08:57:34 i guess you have to send messages to other gui elements and get them to process the message in their own thread 08:57:36 Swing and Qt are good examples for libraries which only ever have one GUI thread. 08:58:06 _3b: I've been meaning to look into the implications of that in CCL - on OS X, I use libao for audio output, which has to be initialized by calling a certain function from the main thread (after which you're use it from other threads) - does CCL provide a way to do that? 08:58:31 Having written a few multi-threaded aps, I have come to the conclusion that I am not smart enough to handle concurrency manually, in the general case. 08:58:32 "you're *free to* use it from other threads", rather 08:58:34 The Mac thing is very annoying in that you can pick any thread to be your Qt GUI thread on Linux, but if you port to Mac, that presumably stops working. 08:59:01 It is very reminiscent of the realization I came to about managing memory, many years ago. 08:59:10 LispWorks CAPI allows multiple GUI threads (kind of like CLIM), but not when on Mac, then they suddenly share the same Lisp thread. 08:59:17 <_3b> hefner: there is a way to move the CCL stuff from first thread to some other thread, look in the opengl example in the ccl source tree 08:59:45 lichtblau: What's the technical reason for that restriction on osx? 09:00:13 tcr: it's that on cocoa (or maybe even carbon), all gui interaction has to happen on the initial thread. 09:00:15 them's the rules. 09:00:34 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:00:37 there's the performSelectorOnInitialThread: method, and you either use it or you get crashes. 09:00:38 yuck 09:00:41 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:00:57 antifuchs: But why the restriction on the initial thread? 09:01:23 tcr: no idea 09:01:25 <_3b> presumably Apple hates developers :p 09:01:44 hmm- h9ow things have changed in just a few years... 09:01:47 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 09:02:25 Apple used to be famousd for treating developers well... 09:02:50 <_3b> well, presumably there is a subset of developers who consider their treatment OK 09:02:51 Maybe success has gone to their head. 09:03:03 <_3b> ObjC devs probably don't mind them as much for example 09:03:38 well that's a tautology isn;t it? 09:03:47 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:53 I wouldn't be surprised if this was carried over from NextStep 09:03:55 <_3b> actually, i guess it is the same as the treatment of their users... they don't like anyone who disagrees with them 09:04:16 but then, same thing 09:04:17 hmm- yeah sounds about right. 09:04:55 Which has worked out so far, since they have been right. 09:05:14 fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:17 But no one is right for all that long. 09:05:27 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@ip70-187-235-200.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:05:30 <_3b> 'right'? i must have missed that :p 09:06:02 yay, an intense debate about apple's politics is exactly what I needed on a saturday morning 09:06:15 <_3b> good point :) 09:06:30 so what's the temperature today in Cupertino? =p 09:06:39 right in the sense that their products have made gobs of money. And the guys who understood the Mac way have made a lot too by being able to move first. 09:06:52 probably 60 < T < 70 09:07:15 now i know i'm way past my bedtime 09:07:33 But, as my Mom used to tell me, "the sun don't shine on one dog's ass all the time" 09:08:45 i can't afford to buy a mac 09:08:50 mcc_ [~mike@ip68-104-164-151.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:00 well there you go- you are ahead of the curve ;) 09:09:08 to participate in this discussion 09:10:07 I thought about buying a mac and then realized i could get nearly twice the machine for the same money 09:10:28 (but didn't really have money for either, ;) 09:10:58 so what did y9ou buy in te end? 09:11:02 *_3b* didn't get a mac because they didn't have any high DPI laptops :( 09:11:07 neither 09:11:27 So you are IRCing purely through brainwaves, or... 09:12:24 -!- pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:12:51 pr [~pr@109.74.204.63] has joined #lisp 09:12:51 -!- pr [~pr@109.74.204.63] has quit [Changing host] 09:12:51 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 09:13:31 i like my quadro video card in this workstation, i'm thinking i might get a quadro laptop if i do save my money 09:14:53 I'm terrible about buying machines for myself... I used a PII bought in 1997 until 2007, and then got a cheap Dell. On the other handd I make anyone emplying me get me a really 09:15:06 uscly machine... 09:15:34 I'm terrible about buying machines for myself... I used a PII bought in 1997 until 2007, and then got a cheap Dell. On the other handd I make anyone emplying me get me a really nice machine, because... 09:16:09 Every seconf my tsts are runing is a second I am not riting code ;) 09:16:24 i'm just happy to be employed 09:16:41 i'll hack code on a typewriter if they pay me 09:16:41 Yeah, me too, actually... 09:17:03 But that's no reason to stop kicking for a better machine. 09:17:49 dr_maligno [~dr_malign@69.Red-88-8-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:52 i actually was provided with a nice machine, quad core 8 gigs 09:18:34 And actually I had to swap my monitors with a guy who came back to the studio and was doing lighting, recently. 09:19:14 Had I not comlained about it , I doubt I would be getting them back... 09:20:22 i think the reason i don't want to sleep is because when i wake up it takes an hour to feel awake 09:20:32 But I am not going to let them get away with having me walk in on day 1 and get the best stuff, and then have it swapped out for lousy stuff. 09:21:43 I want my big monitors back, andf I am thinkiong about demanding a third monitor, and a crad that can handle it. 09:21:53 i better just force myself to go to bed, nite all 09:21:59 night 09:32:53 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 09:35:21 timor [~timor@port-92-195-61-106.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:30 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:45:28 -!- AqD|Home [~aqd_home@122-116-21-207.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:46:07 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-108-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:49:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.10] 09:52:41 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:56:08 -!- absalom [baldanders@c-24-63-132-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:56:22 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754957.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:11 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:07:22 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-52-8.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:08:56 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:10:01 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29:15 moah [~gnu@188.109.145.248] has joined #lisp 10:34:27 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has joined #lisp 10:36:39 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:37:38 nus [~nus@91.205.131.3] has joined #lisp 10:43:01 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:44:03 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:44:36 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:46:16 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:13 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:47:34 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:48:46 vonholstein1 [~habibnaha@122.167.24.184] has joined #lisp 10:50:30 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@2002:440c:cc83:1234:223:dfff:fee0:3016] has joined #lisp 10:53:24 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-128-172.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 10:57:10 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BAE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:05 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-30-168.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:00:37 good day everyone 11:02:06 -!- emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:04:12 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:09 Komi [Komi@62.32.133.50] has joined #lisp 11:11:33 -!- dr_maligno [~dr_malign@69.Red-88-8-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:12:34 -!- Tanami [~rlynow@150.101.97.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:15:54 barcon332 [~barcon332@208.89.210.254] has joined #lisp 11:17:04 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has joined #lisp 11:18:45 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.0.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:19:45 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:22:28 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:26:04 -!- phadthai [mmondor@66.11.161.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:27:37 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:27:59 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-102-6.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: hefner] 11:28:35 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-102-6.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:28:40 how to update the systems known to asdf2 on a running lisp? 11:28:55 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:29:23 -!- lexa_ is now known as Guest78363 11:29:45 Tanami [~rlynow@150.101.97.171] has joined #lisp 11:30:10 reinstall them ? 11:30:17 -!- Tanami [~rlynow@150.101.97.171] has quit [Client Quit] 11:30:23 tanami [~rlynow@150.101.97.171] has joined #lisp 11:30:38 homie: that is not a very good suggestion. 11:30:43 oh ok 11:30:54 leo2007: Did you install something in a particular directory, and now you want asdf2 to be able to load it? 11:31:27 Xach: install something into the same directory where asdf2 can already find it if I restart lisp. 11:32:13 -!- tanami is now known as Tanami 11:32:29 wasn't it (asdf:compute-source-registry) ? 11:33:21 that, or asdf:initialize-source-registry, don't remember which one 11:33:43 it causes the ASDF system search database to be recomputed 11:33:46 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-211-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:35:02 p_l: yeah, I'm looking at that too. 11:43:24 -!- vonholstein1 [~habibnaha@122.167.24.184] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:45:34 http://paste.lisp.org/display/112346 .. i'm trying to figure out what's leaking .. i'm not sure whether what i'm doing in the patched remove-direct-method in std-class.lisp is correct at all, but still(?) 11:45:49 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:46:32 <_3b`> lnostdal: tried (gc :full t) ? 11:46:58 <_3b`> ah, missed the ldb part 11:47:44 so there must be a third hash table somewhere? 11:47:50 <_3b`> actually, i guess it would be interesting anyway, see if t crashes during any GC or just if it runs one normally 11:48:38 <_3b`> there are caches in method dispatch stuff etc in PCL, dunno if those would hold enough to cause problems or not 11:51:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@145.236.198.66] has joined #lisp 11:52:33 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:52:45 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-21-82-64-117-225.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52:54 yeah, sb-pcl::*effective-mehtod-cache* leaks also 11:53:37 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:53:52 containing entries like; # Good afternoon! 12:58:10 hi beach, rme :) 13:05:52 milanj [~milanj_@93.87.249.218] has joined #lisp 13:07:23 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:40 G'morning all. 13:07:53 hello nyef 13:08:43 hi nyef 13:16:48 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:20:28 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 13:24:58 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:04 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:09 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@145.236.198.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:33:05 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:42 Edward_ [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-13-245.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:36:40 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-211-112.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:07 jan247 [~jan247@120.28.127.83] has joined #lisp 13:40:07 -!- jan247 [~jan247@120.28.127.83] has quit [Changing host] 13:40:07 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 13:41:56 -!- Komi [Komi@62.32.133.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:42:49 -!- nus [~nus@91.205.131.3] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:44:49 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has joined #lisp 13:45:10 Komi [Komi@83.231.60.93] has joined #lisp 13:45:17 -!- thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:46:01 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:04 tayloj [~tayloj@rrcs-24-97-174-84.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:19 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754957.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:18 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:05:19 -!- Edward_ [edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-13-245.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 14:07:13 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:07:46 TeMPOraL [~user@178.182.147.196.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:09:25 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-61-106.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:28 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:48 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:12:19 what is the difference between single quotes and double quotes in a (list ...) ? 14:12:42 You mean between ' and " ? 14:13:09 <_3b`> ' is a reader macro for QUOTE, "" is reader syntax for literal strings 14:13:09 Or something else? 14:13:14 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-99-210.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:14:52 ah 14:14:55 of course 14:15:19 <_3b`> ( " is also a reader macro, but doesn't map directly to a normal CL form the way ' does) 14:15:49 AqD|Home [~aqd_home@122-116-21-207.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:47 Alternately, ' doesn't map directly to a normal CL form the way " does. 14:21:05 <_3b`> well, ' reads as something you could write without ' 14:21:19 <_3b`> harder to write a literal string into source without " 14:22:06 #.(make-array 3 :element-type 'character :initial-contents (quote (#\s #\o #\?))) 14:22:23 :-D 14:23:01 *_3b`* 's main point was to clarify that i didn't mean to imply " wasn't a reader macro though 14:23:11 Right, right. 14:24:25 *nyef* needs to find a way to break whatever it is that breaks on threaded PPC quicker and more easily. 14:25:17 *_3b`* needs to find a way to fix the thing that i can break quickly and easily in my flash compiler :p 14:25:43 I've got a couple of those on my list for SBCL, too. 14:25:57 But they're the sort of thing that I just don't have any real angle on. 14:26:20 <_3b`> hopefully hooking slime up to it will make things easier to poke at 14:27:04 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:28:56 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 14:29:22 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:57 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:32:33 I wonder what happened to bauhh.dyndns.org. 14:33:04 Up to half a million lines of output on one test run, and still no sign of damage. :-( 14:38:46 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 14:39:12 _3b`: speaking of that, how far are you with your CL-in-AS? And do you make it available anywhere? 14:40:09 <_3b`> no AS involved 14:40:32 <_3b`> it is at http://github.com/3b/3bil 14:41:36 <_3b`> it is usable, but missing lots of stuff, and a few annoying bugs (like the one i'm supposed to be working on today) 14:43:03 <_3b`> after that i'll try to do something about symbols and handling full lambda lists, which should make it a bit nicer, and hopefully let me add in a bunch more SICL stuff 14:44:37 <_3b`> if the slime stuff i'm working on now works out, that should make it a bit nicer to use too 14:47:30 _3b`: right, I meant to say AVM 14:48:04 _3b`: is it a compiler, or an interpreter? 14:48:27 <_3b`> compiler only at the moment, not self hosting, so need to run the compiler on a real CL 14:48:50 aha 14:48:58 <_3b`> which produces avm2 bytecode to be put into a .swf file 14:49:45 are you using it for anything? 14:50:34 <_3b`> i do all my flash dev with it, not that i do as much flash dev as i'm supposed to yet 14:51:43 aha, so it is actually usable for real-world things? 14:52:04 _3b`: what are you doing in flash, if I may ask? 14:52:08 <_3b`> http://3bb.cc/tmp/lgdc/jigsaw5.swf is something i made with it for last lgdc 14:52:23 <_3b`> i'm supposed to be starting a company to make silly web games in flash 14:52:28 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93.87.249.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:52:32 I see 14:52:37 <_3b`> haven't actually gotten to the point of making the company or making any games though :p 14:53:04 that jigsaw would be a bit easier to use if the pieces weren't black on black :) 14:53:06 *_3b`* spent way too much time failing to finish up that jigsaw puzzle thing for example 14:53:09 chrismay [~user@d83-176-155-201.cust.tele2.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:33 billitch [~billitch@dslb-088-075-177-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:38 <_3b`> yeah, configurable background color, and highlighted edges are on th elist of things that i'm supposed to be adding to it 14:54:05 <_3b`> (it is actually more dark green background though, so adjusting monitor might help a bit) 14:54:10 Hi, I'm reading lml2 source and try to imagine how to combine existing (defined with def-std-html) tags in a way that allows me to use new tags like the existing ones e.g. (html :fload-divider) or (html ((:my-fancy-html-composite innerclass "foo" outerclass "bar"))). Is that possible with lml2 or should I forget about "use new tags like the existing ones"? Should I not want to combine html tags at all because they don't become complex 14:54:11 enought? I'm missing something? Should I use another library or write my own? What do you think? 14:55:27 I'd go for CL-WHO or YACLML 14:55:39 LML is kinda not maintained, afaik 14:58:48 p_l: ok, I will look into it, thank you. 14:59:18 yaclml does have a macro called deftag, btw 14:59:45 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:04 I just thought maybe I'm not experienced enough for extending something like lml2. Is this so or is lml2 inherently "none extensible" in this way? 15:00:42 I think "abandoned" fits more 15:08:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:12:02 maybe I just found out why the abondoned it 15:13:51 Okay, thread with bogosity in its context, C stack trace is (sig_stop_for_gc_handler+0x354), [0x1000bd6c], [0x100370], [0x0], [0x1000bd6c], (funcall0+0x48). 15:13:52 who knows, bye 15:13:56 -!- chrismay [~user@d83-176-155-201.cust.tele2.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:14:08 seems eql-specialization in CLISP does not leak .. i thought it did, but it doesn't (perhaps i'm using a newer version now) 15:14:08 Bogus value is 1032 again. 15:15:58 s3r3n1ty [~s3r3n1ty@190.213.44.77] has joined #lisp 15:16:01 hi 15:16:21 Can someone recommend a decent book/link that gives an in-depth introduction to functional programming? 15:17:26 <_3b`> SICP is pretty good for programming in general, and i think it uses a fairly functional style 15:17:33 s3r3n1ty, http://www.amazon.com/Purely-Functional-Structures-Chris-Okasaki/dp/0521663504 15:17:39 Hrm. 10016e18 is in low_level_handle_now_handler... 15:17:46 thank you 15:18:05 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:13 Which is a reasonable thing to see calling sig_stop_for_gc_handler. 15:18:32 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@rrcs-24-97-174-84.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:18:56 ... or not? 15:19:16 Guess it is. 15:20:30 -!- OsamaBinWOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WAAAAAAAAGH!!] 15:20:34 And 100370 doesn't look to be in any known space... 15:21:16 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:21:37 -!- sixpoint8 [~jaykub@2002:440c:cc83:1234:223:dfff:fee0:3016] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:22:02 dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:08 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:19 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:25:15 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:47 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:26:10 Hrm. call_into_c+0x54 is just after the bctrl function to call the C function... So my backtrace appears to be missing stuff... 15:26:44 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:54 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 15:28:11 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 15:28:46 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:30:03 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-168-9.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:48 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-230.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:53 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.135.75] has joined #lisp 15:32:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:32:30 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:35 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:44:59 gko [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:43 octavo- [octavo-@186.110.131.64] has joined #lisp 15:45:55 tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 15:46:00 Dodek [dodek@jest.pro] has joined #lisp 15:48:06 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:48:47 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:50:29 tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 15:56:42 I'm having problems using clbuild. I was under the impression that clbuild was newer, and an improvement over, asdf. 15:56:44 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: ] 15:56:46 Is that correct? 15:56:49 no 15:57:41 So... I should use asdf instead? Or is there another facility|package I should use? 15:58:12 clbuild uses asdf 15:58:18 are you referring to asdf-install ? 15:58:37 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:37 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:56 ASDF is equivalent of make, clbuild is more like BSD ports or Portage 15:59:28 I suppose so. I'm trying to get sbcl, hunchentoot and others, running. 15:59:52 I'm new to lisp and trying to figure out the best way to manage the packages. 16:00:43 What problems do you face? 16:00:45 ... And now it's time for your next lesson: "packages" refers to something completely different in common lisp, closer to "namespaces" than any other concept you likely have. 16:01:11 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:01:41 nyef: thank you. I appreciate the clarification! 16:02:24 minion: tell syntaxman about linux-quickstart 16:02:24 syntaxman: please see linux-quickstart: Linux Common Lisp Quickstart (Emacs, SLIME and SBCL + clbuild): http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ 16:02:36 tcr: clbuild appears to download all the dependencies for hunchentoot, for example, but then in running it there are some deps missing. 16:03:46 what deps are missing? 16:04:37 p_l: several. cl-who is the one I remember off hand. I had to go through the cycle several times. 16:05:05 <_3b`> cl-who isn't required by hunchentoot as far as i know 16:06:19 Well... having downloaded what clbuild told me I needed, then doing a dumpcore or run it would fail and say a package was missing... 16:06:32 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:07:19 syntaxman: so you're telling us that you saved a core and just executing it would error out because of a missing package? 16:07:29 <_3b`> well, if you want more than 'works for me' responses, you need to provide more details :) 16:07:31 Yes 16:07:40 benny` [~user@i577A7C85.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:10 you did not enter anything at the repl? 16:08:12 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:08:47 _3b`: Of course, but being new to lisp, I assumed that if it was clbuild causing the problem and not me, that I'd find out quickly that clbuild is problematic. 16:08:51 minion: lisppaste 16:08:55 pkhuong: no. 16:09:10 <_3b`> well, if 'works for me' is a good enough answer, it works for me :p 16:09:24 pkhuong: I updated sbcl and did an implementation-build. 16:09:40 *_3b`* doesn't dump cores though, so i suppose it could make an effort to break those strangely 16:09:58 actually, did you dumpcore, then execute the core, or does dumpcore also fail with a missing package? Can you paste the exact error message, along with a transcript? 16:10:02 then I updated hunchentoot, accepted the deps it recommended. After that I tried to dumpcore. 16:10:45 -!- benny [~user@i577A1F0E.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:46 pkhuong: After specifically updating some deps, the dumpcore succeeded, but running failed. 16:11:18 cl-ppcre stopped the dumpcore, but cl-who prevented it from running. 16:11:49 Now, I see that the START-SERVER symbol is not found in HUNCHENTOOT. 16:11:56 fundamental [~fundament@cvar.townhouse.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 16:11:59 Don't know how to get around that. 16:12:41 I never did enter anything at the repl. 16:13:15 kirkwood [~kirkwood@c-76-104-244-75.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:39 I'm not avoiding the repl, I'm just trying to get the environment installed and working. 16:13:47 Learning one thing at a time 16:14:05 -!- octavo- [octavo-@186.110.131.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:14:31 hmmm ... i never go with dumpcore 16:15:09 <_3b`> dumpcore is just an optimization when setting up dev environment, so unless you are on a very slow machine probably better to skip it for now 16:16:07 What is the process you use, then? 16:16:19 Start a repl and load modules manually? 16:18:06 <_3b`> load a .asd for whatever i'm working on, which loads any dependencies 16:18:10 I have no aversion to that if that's the best way. I just have no way of assessing what the best way is. 16:18:24 <_3b`> (or load deps by hand if i haven't gotten to the point of having a .asd) 16:19:09 may be a propos. 16:20:01 that way you only have tell asdf to load *your* project, and it'll also load all the dependencies. 16:20:38 pkhuong: Thanks, that looks very helpful. 16:21:47 lnostdal: have you tried replacing sb-mop::*eql-specializer-table* with a weak hash table? 16:22:13 lispm [~lispm@e177122171.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:22:33 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-170-230.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 16:22:44 i tried :weakness :key , pkhuong .. (also on sb-mop::*eql-specializer-methods*) 16:23:00 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:23:08 and? 16:23:17 i also tried making some (probably dumb) changes to remove-direct-method; http://paste.lisp.org/display/112346 16:23:23 still leaking somewhere, pkhuong 16:25:24 <_3b`> hmm, does zip not work with asdf2? 16:25:36 -!- lispm [~lispm@e177122171.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-170.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:26:46 -!- benny` is now known as benny 16:27:18 well, you'd need key-and-value weakness 16:27:25 since the value points back to its key 16:27:31 syntaxman: personally I either load modules manually or load them with asdf system description for my project, plus I added load-multiple-systems to my ASDF 16:29:59 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754957.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:03 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:34 -!- Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:30:34 Holcxjo [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 16:30:44 -!- Holcxjo is now known as hdurer 16:31:44 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:32:13 ok, trying that, pkhuong (compiling) 16:32:55 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:45 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.135.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:33:45 -!- pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:35:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-203.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:37:15 no, that wouldn't be enough... 16:37:22 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-229-110.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:37:41 we pretty much have to make the object slot in eql specialisers weak pointers. 16:38:13 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:39:47 yeah, but even "manually" removing that wrapper-object from the hash-table like (i think) i do in that patch for remove-direct-method; something else still leaks somewhere 16:40:57 the hungarians have a tool to track referents. 16:41:51 yeah, or perhaps sbcl has something that'll list all structures in ascending order of space used? .. i recall something like that i think 16:46:53 What needs to be done for the return value of some function to be 'setf-able'? 16:47:49 fundamental: that doesn't actually happen. 16:47:49 you could wrap the value in a cons, fundamental .. then access the CAR (or CDR) of the cons to setf the inner "real" value 16:48:00 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:48:19 or in general wrap the value(s) in something; e.g. a simple one-slot struct perhaps 16:48:23 When you (setf (foo x) ...), you're actually calling a function named (setf foo), or expanding a special macro. 16:48:45 So, to define a place, you can define a setf expander, or, more commonly, a setf function. 16:49:51 pkhuong: it looks like those where the keywords that I needed 16:50:25 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:50:29 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:53 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:53:44 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:53:58 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 16:54:20 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:58:05 <_3b`> heh, guess the slime magic for M-C-x on defvar doesn't work for cl:defvar 16:58:58 Yeah, there are a few slime things that break down if you use a package prefix. 17:01:39 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:54 johanlindberg [~johanlind@81-234-18-19-o286.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:14 -!- fundamental [~fundament@cvar.townhouse.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:08:33 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-9-124.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:09:12 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-22.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:18:22 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@178.182.147.196.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: g2g] 17:18:35 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:50 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:20:27 Giovys [~giovys_06@189.174.138.72] has joined #lisp 17:22:39 -!- Giovys [~giovys_06@189.174.138.72] has left #lisp 17:26:28 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:26:47 -!- johanlindberg [~johanlind@81-234-18-19-o286.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:30:29 -!- x-ip__ is now known as x-ip 17:30:36 -!- x-ip [~x-ip@host101.200-82-110.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Changing host] 17:30:36 x-ip [~x-ip@unaffiliated/x-ip] has joined #lisp 17:36:08 p_l: When I google: asdf "load-multiple-systems" I get nothing. Didn't find it in the asdf manual online either. 17:36:25 p_l: Got a pointer to a doc anywhere? 17:36:36 WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-253-6-86.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:47 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:38:04 Hello, quick question: Is there a function/macro in common lisp that conses a value to the end of a list and returns the last cons. Like in a loop function where it keeps an "iterator" or pointer to the back of the list for collects? 17:38:13 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:38:48 ... Bwah? #x408 is a non-descriptor value?!? 17:38:55 It's a bloody FIXNUM! 17:39:10 I wrote my own and it works, but it seems like there should be something built in. 17:42:21 minion: paste 112351 17:42:22 Paste number 112351: "asdf:load-multiple-systems" by p_l in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/112351 17:43:55 p_l: Oh, I see. Thanks! 17:44:08 Oh. 17:44:16 Bleh. Unmarked use of hexadecimal. :-/ 17:44:29 WarWeasle: Seems like it'd usually be easier to just use the start of the list instead... 17:45:01 So, funcallable-instance-header-widetag... 17:45:35 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:46:15 Snamich_ [~Snamich@166.189.39.192] has joined #lisp 17:46:48 Odin-: Yeah, but I'm trying to clever. I should know better by now,lol. 17:47:17 I woke up my son. need to go. bye 17:47:29 -!- WarWeasle [~brad@c-98-253-6-86.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:54 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@166.189.39.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:47:54 -!- Snamich_ is now known as Snamich 17:58:38 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:59:15 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.60.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:31 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:49 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:02:56 thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:01 Komi [Komi@83.231.60.93] has joined #lisp 18:03:02 -!- thunk [~user@cpe-24-26-199-70.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:03:02 thunk [~user@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 18:10:00 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 18:12:15 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:19:23 Joreji [~thomas@64-165.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:24:33 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:45 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has joined #lisp 18:33:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-203-109.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 18:34:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-165.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:34:42 Joreji [~thomas@64-165.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:35:06 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082BFEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:13 -!- dfox [~dfox@rb5cd235.net.upc.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:38:28 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B7C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:47:44 Gah! The -count- register is used in the function-call sequence, but it's not accounted for in GC! 18:48:25 One down, but not enough. 18:49:06 pr [~pr@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 18:49:07 -!- pr [~pr@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Changing host] 18:49:07 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 18:53:41 plediii [~plediii@nat-168-7-232-71.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 18:54:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-89-223-203-109.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:55:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@64-165.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:57:08 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:03:33 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:04:37 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.164.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:06:07 rtoym: ping 19:06:19 Yes? 19:07:09 I cannot unsubscribe from cmucl-help 19:07:36 I've tried several times, listar responds that I've been deleted, but then I keep receiving messages 19:08:13 Can you send messages to cmucl-help? I'm not the admin. Martin is. 19:10:17 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:14:10 nyef: Is that ppc with gencgc? 19:14:25 It's PPC generally, but yes, gencgc specifically. 19:14:54 There's a 1-2 instruction window on every funcall where a GC can occur. 19:15:07 Far less likely with cheneygc, as you'd need to take a signal in that window. 19:15:20 But when you have threads, it'll happen a touch more often. 19:16:07 Anyway, that's -one- failure mode figured out. 19:16:14 But there's still one more. :-/ 19:16:36 That's odd. cmucl does something with the CTR register. 19:16:59 And the LR register too. 19:17:14 Yeah, LR is covered, due to it being used on multiple architectures. 19:17:40 CTR is probably relatively recent in cmucl, as in post-split. 19:19:19 Yes, ppc/gencgc didn't happen until sparc/gencgc and that was post split. 19:19:46 Heh. Maybe sbcl should get sparc/gencgc. 19:20:10 On the other hand, I have embryonic plans for x86-64/cheneygc, which I think would be amusing. 19:20:17 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-11-221.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 19:20:20 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754957.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:20 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 19:20:27 nyef: why amusng ? 19:20:40 fe[nl]ix: No threads, no object pinning, etc. 19:21:24 It's the sort of thing that you'd -only- build as a maintenance activity, as you wouldn't want to run it normally. 19:21:45 But it'd give many more sbcl developers the ability to run a cheneygc target. 19:22:43 Why not let them run x86-32/cheneygc? 19:23:01 *rtoym* doesn't know if cmucl will run cheneygc anymore. 19:23:45 I want to make a tunnel on port 4005 to connect to the same machne (win xp) with ssh2 or putty to connect to swank server. Does anybody know the exact ssh2 cmmand ? 19:23:57 fe[nl]ix: If you can send a message to cmucl-help that would be good. If that doesn't work, let me know and I'll get Martin to remove you. 19:24:11 We don't -have- x86oid cheneygc. 19:24:14 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has joined #lisp 19:24:51 Oh, really? You dropped that completely for x86? 19:30:22 I believe so. 19:30:59 Hey, how does cmucl do object pinning for gencgc/ppc? 19:31:33 By not doing it. 19:31:47 mtk [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:59 No conservativeness is needed, so object pinning was never implemented. 19:32:13 milanj [~milanj_@93.87.249.218] has joined #lisp 19:32:20 Umm. Even for alien-funcall? 19:32:44 Hunh. 19:33:10 Being able to pin the occasional object is critical for a few aspects of SBCL's FFI. 19:33:38 And on cheneygc, that's accomplished via WITHOUT-GCING, which arguably pins a few more objects than necessary. 19:34:01 josemanuel [~josemanue@222.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:34:33 I think you're expected to use without-gcing for alien-funcall if you have objects that might move. 19:34:36 Caused me a few problems before I figured out what was going on and implemented something usable. 19:35:43 That really doesn't work well if you have threads, especially if they need to pin mutex objects that they intend to sleep on. 19:36:20 CMUCL solves that problem by not having threads. ;-( 19:36:31 (Well, OS threads, anyway.) 19:37:38 Yeah, but still. 19:38:01 Xach: is quicklisp going to be something similar to CTAN, CPAN, CRAN...? 19:38:14 (This is the last bug for sbcl ppc threads. It has to be.) 19:38:19 abugosh [~Adium@70.15.204.182.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:30 leo2007: ... CSPAN? 19:39:07 leo2007: There's been a handful of tries at that, I believe. 19:39:33 if you get OBAMA's approval on using lisp exclusively on their projects. 19:40:18 Odin-: none of them went anywhere, sadly. 19:40:57 The Object Based Application Management Authority? 19:41:41 ... It's a bit late now, but did anyone start a project called "CLinton"? 19:44:52 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.169.254] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 19:46:27 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-11-221.xnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:49:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-203.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:49 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-198-68.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:52:25 leo2007: that would, I think, be serious micromanagement 19:52:56 rsynnott: it is impossible anyway. 19:54:32 So, now that I have an additional piece of information coming from when the problem is detected, the problem isn't recurring. :-/ 19:55:22 Hmm, G W Bush - GWBASIC 19:55:34 <_3b`> throw some NOPs in the window and make it easier to hit maybe? 19:55:49 rtoym: what version should I use to compile the latest snapshot on Linux/x86 ? 19:55:53 Don't know where the window for this one -is-. 19:55:54 and, of course, there's a scheme implementation named after a Soviet dictator 19:56:14 rsynnott: are you sure ? 19:56:19 rsynnott: "chicken"? 20:00:05 deech [~user@24-107-146-101.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:50 fe[nl]ix: The previous snapshot should work. That's what I used. 20:00:53 Stalin - a quite fast optimizing Scheme compiler 20:01:03 ? 20:01:03 Gotta run. bbl. 20:01:14 Hi all, I am playing around with the CVS version of slime and am getting a "error in process filter: Elisp destructure-case failed: (:write-string "2 20:01:14 " :repl-result)" at the SLIME repl. Has anyone seen this in the latest slime? 20:01:21 [oops, wrong window] 20:01:39 xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.68.40] has joined #lisp 20:02:25 -!- xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.68.40] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:29 -!- Komi [Komi@83.231.60.93] has quit [] 20:05:53 deech: what did you do? paste *slime-events* to lisppaste 20:06:07 rtoym: http://paste.lisp.org/+2EOX 20:06:15 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-200-182.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07:06 cmm [~cmm@109.64.200.182] has joined #lisp 20:08:26 stassats: it is at http://paste.lisp.org/display/112354. Thanks for taking a look. 20:09:50 deech: any reason for using fd-handler communication? 20:10:36 stassats: no, I don't know what that is. I am just using the CVS version of slime. I haven't made any changes 20:10:54 what's in your ~/.swank.lisp? 20:11:55 #+sbcl (setq swank:*communication-style* :fd-handler) . I didn't even know I had that, must've been from years ago. 20:12:57 I just uncommented it and now I get "Thread not found :REPL-THREAD" when I type anything into the REPL. 20:13:50 you need to restart it better 20:14:17 I'll give that a shot. Thanks a lot! 20:16:59 dlowe [~user@c-66-30-114-116.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:35 -!- mtk [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:19:07 mtk [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:08 stassats: I completely restarted Emacs and recompiled Slime but I still get the same error "Thread not found :REPL-THREAD" 20:19:33 well, annotate your paste with *slime-events* again 20:20:09 will do that, the communication style seems to default to "spawn" 20:20:42 done http://paste.lisp.org/display/112354#1 20:21:19 -!- mtk is now known as mtk_ 20:21:30 -!- mtk_ is now known as mtk 20:21:31 <_3b`> deech: out of curiosity, what does M-x slime-protocol-version say? 20:21:42 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.106] has joined #lisp 20:21:43 <_3b`> sorry, M-: not M-x 20:21:47 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-135-174.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:50 _3b`: 2010-07-06 20:22:14 <_3b`> stassats: you are sure slime and swank match? 20:22:24 _3b`: it'd complain otherwise 20:22:30 <_3b`> true 20:23:45 "2010-07-06" 20:24:01 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-7-48.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:24:26 I changed communication-style to nil as per the manual with the same results 20:24:43 Do I need the latest version of SBCL? 20:24:45 communication-style :spawn is alright 20:25:04 i think 1.0.30 should work, though updating SBCL never (almost) hurts 20:25:15 it doesn't seem to create a REPL for some reason 20:25:22 Hrm. Okay, got an #x1032 in reg_FDEFN. 20:25:29 Which is boxed, but wasn't at one point. 20:25:35 deech: so, post your emacs side config as well 20:25:37 <_3b`> deech: paste your slime config from .emacs ? 20:27:21 done http://paste.lisp.org/display/112354#2 20:27:55 well, don't use slime-autoloads 20:28:23 or use it correctly (which i don't know how) 20:29:32 Ugh. It's in descriptor space, so now I have to desk-check all of the VOPs. :-/ 20:29:37 Err... dynamic space. 20:29:40 I commented that line with the same results 20:29:41 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@222.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 20:29:57 <_3b`> deech: probably better to load contribs with slime-setup 20:30:01 Or I can try to rig things even more severely to try and find a function name... 20:30:06 deech: and to load contribs you just do (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-banner slime-asdf)) 20:30:12 peddie___ [~peddie@adsl-99-69-97-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:18 ok 20:30:28 deech: not comment it, but don't use it at all, meaning ditch eval-after-load 20:30:55 and you don't need to add contrib directory into load-path 20:31:02 (if you're using slime-setup) 20:31:09 and you don't need to call -init functions 20:31:31 and slime-complete-symbol*-fancy has effect only on compound completion 20:32:06 *_3b`* would also suggest using utf8 rather than leaving the default (which seems to be latin1) 20:32:15 whow that worked! 20:32:15 -!- peddie__ [~peddie@99-27-201-7.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:32:55 thanks! 20:34:10 _3b`: And how would I set the encoding? 20:34:31 <_3b`> (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) in .emacs 20:34:59 *_3b`* also has (set-language-environment "UTF-8") not sure if that is required or not 20:35:08 slime-autoloads often comes up as a problem, i should check whether it works at all or the manual just doesn't do its job 20:37:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-12.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:38:28 I notice the manual has been updated fairly recently, can I rely on it? 20:39:22 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:39:26 deech: it's updated semi-regularly if there are any changes 20:39:44 you can rely on it, but if there's something off, you can always report it 20:39:54 Cool, so the core documentation (key-bindings etc) are good. 20:40:11 i hope! 20:40:27 I'm revisiting Lisp after a 2-year hiatus, so what little muscle memory I had is gone. 20:41:00 note that you need to build the manual yourself, the one at c-l.net might be outdated 20:41:22 stassats: yes I did that by running "make" in the doc/ directory. 20:41:36 deech: ok, now you can run M-x slime-info 20:42:08 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Quit: reboot] 20:42:37 cool! 20:47:25 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:28 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:50:23 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:50:33 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@clip-point-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:51:00 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:51:35 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:52:47 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:54:24 roygbiv [~JohnRambo@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 20:55:25 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754957.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:28 -!- deech [~user@24-107-146-101.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:00:47 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 21:07:07 _3b, if you're awake, I'm wondering if you're going to Reno in october 21:07:31 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:10:39 <_3b`> manic12: not planning on it 21:11:38 *_3b`* is too lazy/antisocial to even go to conferences in my home town :p 21:11:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:12:42 Shmur [csmartin@pool-173-71-147-248.nrflva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:13 -!- pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:14:40 pr [~pr@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 21:14:40 -!- pr [~pr@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Changing host] 21:14:40 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:15:56 -!- pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Client Quit] 21:16:57 pr [~pr@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 21:16:57 -!- pr [~pr@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Changing host] 21:16:57 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:18:52 francogrex [~user@109.130.71.73] has joined #lisp 21:21:39 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:50 -!- pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:20 pr [~pr@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 21:22:20 -!- pr [~pr@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Changing host] 21:22:20 pr [~pr@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:23:02 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:10 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 21:23:20 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:23:56 araujo [~araujo@61.173.116.67] has joined #lisp 21:24:06 -!- araujo [~araujo@61.173.116.67] has quit [Changing host] 21:24:06 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:28:19 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-91-8-208.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 21:28:27 i suppose i will just have to continue pestering you on irc 21:30:11 bakkdoor [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 21:30:17 -!- bakkdoor [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has left #lisp 21:31:19 who was it that was saying they have a c++ ffi for gcc? 21:31:55 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:32:04 ... Surely gcc can generate -native- C++ calls, not requiring an FFI? 21:32:37 surely, but this isn't #c++ 21:33:12 <_3b`> nyef: might not be able to generate native calls to some other compiler's c++ though 21:33:28 might have been p_l 21:33:30 'swhat ABI standards are for, surely? 21:33:51 nyef: I could imagine a library to handle all the mangling. 21:33:57 does microsoft prescribe to (community) standards? 21:35:40 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@166.189.39.192] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 21:35:40 Prescribe would be the word for what microsoft does... along with not document its prescription properly. 21:35:47 our ffi can handle vtbl access for a small subset of C++, microsoft specific proabably 21:37:11 -!- coyo|pingout [kvirc@pool-71-164-242-147.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:30 Bloody bug. I finally have things set up to tell me something -actionable- about its location, and it doesn't occur. :-/ 21:38:19 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 21:39:15 manic12: I've got theory worked out for most of the stuff except exceptions (pun intended) 21:39:35 I guess I could implement it, but lately different things took my time 21:40:56 I would like to see it for selfish reasons 21:42:03 manic12: I cut some corners by using information dumped by GCC (which is already available through GCC-XML package) and I recall that Verrazano was supposed to do similar stuff, but I don't think it actually added C++ support 21:42:08 i've got a c++ interface to SMLib which wraps exported c code around the c++ methods 21:42:20 er lisp-to-c++ 21:42:23 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:42:37 nyef: so it's fixed 21:43:12 stassats: No, it's just laying low. I haven't even -found- it, but I already know it's an intermittent failure. 21:43:23 well, the virtual method calls are quite simple (static methods are *dead simple*), the real problem is exception handling and getting the right pointers in first place 21:43:36 i don't see why requiring information dumped by the compiler is out of the question for usual use 21:44:23 p_l is it sbcl specific? 21:44:26 well, it's not a problem for me... to get it working to the point of calling virtual methods would probably took a week of dedicated work, maybe less 21:44:29 manic12: nope 21:44:41 cffi specific? 21:44:53 hjpark [~user@221.138.233.64] has joined #lisp 21:45:00 in so far, I haven't written the code, but studied the necessary ABIs etc. (it involved some disassembly) 21:45:20 ic vaporware 21:45:21 manic12: right now, I was planning on making it CFFI-compatible with some extras for SBCL and maybe CCL 21:45:29 manic12: didn't have time, simply 21:45:51 the times when I can actually be productive got taken by other stuff 21:45:53 you should offer to sell it to somebody 21:46:12 manic12: hah, first someone would need to be willing to pay for it :D 21:46:41 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:12 well, i'm not the only one interested in SMLib and there are certainly plenty of people who use C++ libs from Lisp 21:47:43 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:47:46 kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 21:48:38 carlocci [~nes@93.37.208.45] has joined #lisp 21:49:51 yeah, C++ ffi seems like kind of a holy grail... the research I did was done during one of my rare better moments of clarity of mind 21:49:58 if it's runtime speed is faster than a foreign call to C which then calls C++ somebody could be convinced to pay for development, or if its simply easier 21:50:22 manic12: it would also mean less writing of C boilerplate 21:50:35 yeah, that's the "easier" part 21:51:44 i'm thinking to write a lisp yacc parser to read SMLib header files and write the C and Lisp, SWIG was a great way to start but gets difficult for the details 21:51:58 well, personally I think the job isn't that hard (GCC will dump data from C++ header nicely) 21:52:15 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.71.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:19 manic12: you can use Verrazano for starting point, I guess, it parses files from GCC 21:52:40 in other words you think gcc should just preprocess the headers for lisp? 21:52:47 -!- mtk [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:52:49 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:07 p_l: dump how ? 21:53:30 SMLib only uses multiple threads from vc++, not gcc, so i'm interested in a general solution 21:53:38 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:54:02 (but by then SMLib will have gcc support for multithreading i suppose) 21:54:13 fe[nl]ix: there are options that cause GCC to dump information from its parser, including VTable layout and mangling data 21:54:37 ka-ching 21:54:53 there's also GCC-XML, which adds XML output of the same data 21:55:15 p_l: can it dump function definitions ? 21:55:27 fe[nl]ix: yes, that's how Verrazano works 21:55:33 no 21:55:42 gcc-xml only dumps declarations 21:56:09 so what you mean by definitions? the code? then no 21:56:21 .o 21:56:49 yup 21:57:45 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:08 C++ objects are rather simple in retrospect, but working with C++ is like going head-to-head with Cthulhu 21:59:11 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has joined #lisp 21:59:14 *manic12* thinks about stack-allocating c++ objects 21:59:18 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-46-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:34 kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 22:00:00 if you have the mangled name of the constructor, you might be able to stack allocate c++ objects 22:00:14 unless it allocates memory deep inside 22:01:02 i would like to be able to stack allocate the memory for the object then call the initialization function on the pointer on the stack 22:01:09 manic12: I just called the constructor and used its return value, allocating on the stack is definitely possible if you break "encapsulation", no matter how flimsy it is in C++ 22:01:34 "encapsulation"? 22:01:45 manic12: the supposed "hiding of details" inside a class 22:02:03 some objects in SMLib only are stack allocated, the destructor does nothing essentially 22:02:08 the class instance is a simple C struct, so allocating it on the stack is easy once you know the layout 22:02:25 right 22:02:33 that's the easy part 22:02:41 manic12: yeah, placement new? 22:02:44 initializing all the slots and such, is hard 22:02:51 Anyone know of any examples of Lisp (any dialect) used in safety critical software? 22:03:07 gensym's product 22:03:13 runs panama canal 22:03:38 g2 or something 22:04:05 you should ask them...are you putting this in a book? 22:04:17 gigamonkey: depends on what is "use" in your example - CL got used for more than one space mission (or scrapped mission), generating specialized code that run on microcontrollers 22:04:30 pkhuong: can you explain? 22:05:38 manic12: you could google for it? C++ has explicit support for constructing objects on pre-allocated memory. 22:05:59 [ka-ching] 22:06:05 you guys are great 22:06:09 bigjust [~user@c-24-126-240-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:18 varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 22:06:43 manic12: as for C++, be sure to read IA-64 C++ ABI documents, it explains the ABI used by modern GCC and GCC-compatible compilers 22:06:44 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 22:06:46 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 22:08:32 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:08:54 gigamonkey: why d'ya ask? 22:11:57 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229110006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:12:11 fiveop [~fiveop@g229110006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:28 -!- dabd [~dabd@a85-139-97-135.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:12:50 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:13:31 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has joined #lisp 22:13:34 manic12: the only really ugly thing with FFI to C++ is exceptions, which in my design needed Lisp-side assembly writer 22:14:44 i wonder if the lap mechanism (in acl) has everything required for that 22:14:46 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 22:15:09 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:15:31 (gigamonkey is furiously writing I suppose) 22:15:59 gigamonkey: are you working on a new book? 22:16:39 *manic12* needs to get his second book 22:16:46 manic12: well, my fallback mechanism was supposed to be writing raw bytes to CFFI-allocated chunk of executable memory 22:17:25 what was the non-fallback mechanism? 22:17:57 (that could trigger dep on certain systems) 22:18:08 *_3b`* is guessing he works on the periodical, rather than a book 22:18:08 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e1a49-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:13 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-b21e1a49-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 22:18:26 manic12: non-fallback was LAP on CCL, VOPs on SBCL etc. 22:18:37 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:39 ok 22:18:42 VOPs? You need them inline? 22:18:52 probably lap will work on acl 22:18:59 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-52-8.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:19:06 nyef: I *wanted* them inline inside a CL function that was the "interface" 22:19:13 Ah, right. 22:19:26 nyef: and we already discussed it XD 22:19:37 Yeah, but I paged the details out. 22:19:40 Actually I was asking because some guy was asking me. 22:19:41 mtk [~mtk@ool-18e4dfad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:56 I told him to ask on comp.lang.lisp but if anybody knew of any examples off hand I was going to pass them along. 22:20:12 *gigamonkey* is contemplating a Lisp themed issue of Code Quarterly at some point. 22:20:28 gigamonkey: did you supply him with a kill file first? 22:20:38 p_l: heh. 22:20:47 I'd imagine that ACL2 might be used in safety-critical software, somehow. 22:20:58 -!- christop` is now known as christoph_debian 22:21:38 *p_l* was lately thinking of a way to get a REPL into LEO so... 22:22:42 why not GEO? 22:22:49 nyef: I guess if any safety-critical software runs on AMD chips, ACL2 is indirectly involved. 22:23:26 gigamonkey: Exactly! Alternately, perhaps it's used at one less remove to prove something about a safety-critical device or software? 22:23:54 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:24:11 That reminds me: I should interview J Strother Moore. 22:25:05 gigamonkey: For that matter, when can we purchase our *first* issue of Code Quarterly? :) 22:25:14 -!- hjpark [~user@221.138.233.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:33 redline6561: I'm hoping to start things off with a Fall 2010 issue 22:25:34 i save my quarters for the laundary machines 22:26:00 But the work of getting it done while dealing with a new baby could push things to Winter 2010 or worse. 22:26:17 congrats 22:26:31 I've got writers under contract but haven't yet received any full first drafts. 22:26:34 Congrats, indeed. I didn't realize. 22:26:48 And I've got to get in gear and write my own articles. 22:26:52 Well, looking forward to it in any event. 22:26:53 Thanks, guys. 22:27:06 I figure better a bit late but high quality is better than early and crappy. 22:27:16 stassats: GEO is waay too expensive 22:27:39 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has joined #lisp 22:27:51 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.90] has joined #lisp 22:28:15 I guess I could get SCL into space for under million :P 22:28:25 first impressions! 22:28:55 p_l: i see you're doing good, if you have money for sending it to the LEO 22:29:05 All that said, if you, or anyone you know might be interested in writing for CQ, send them my way. I'm always looking for good stuff. 22:29:28 what kind of stuff do you want? 22:29:31 stassats: nah, i don't, i'm researching how to con those that can send it :P 22:29:55 manic12: See http://codequarterly.wordpress.com/ 22:30:07 And also http://www.codequarterly.com/write.html 22:30:40 kloeri_ [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 22:33:06 gigamonkey: I've been pushing a friend's father of mine that was one of Negroponte's grad students and went on to do some cool stuff at Tektronix. Not sure he'll bite. :-/ 22:34:30 *p_l* laughs at dynamic programming being supposedly taught at universities... 22:34:53 what's so funny about it? 22:34:54 fe[nl]ix: ping 22:35:12 easyE [98Litalb9w@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:42 stassats: Many places it just doesn't happen. 22:35:43 p_l: I have two introductory books on the topic. 22:35:45 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:35:47 stassats: the bits I learned about it where what I encountered by myself about memoization 22:35:57 depends on the university, then. 22:36:05 the algorithms that I had seen in the algorithm subject didn't require them... 22:36:18 rtoym: pong 22:36:24 though I'll admit my last year I was a bad student 22:36:32 being homeless kinda breaks your mind 22:37:01 homeless? thats no good 22:37:22 p_l: we use , and I had Brassard as a lecturer. Dynamic programming gets a decent treatment. 22:37:41 fe[nl]ix: Couple of issues with the paste. I think the best approach is to do a cross-compile to 2010-07 using 2010-06. This works. Then use 2010-07 to build current CVS. I don't think you can go directly from 2010-06 to CVS. 22:38:06 rtoym: that's 2010-06 trying to compile 2010-07 22:39:08 manic12: I'm currently thinking if I should try to get into full time job instead and do part-time studies to finish my MSci 22:39:18 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:39:53 fe[nl]ix: Oh. Ok. Then you need to do a cross-compile. src/tools/cross-build-world.sh -B boot-2010-06-cross-x86 linux-target linux-cross bin/lisp 22:40:26 (src/tools/create-target.sh linux-cross and linux-target first, before doing the cross-compile.) 22:42:01 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has joined #lisp 22:42:46 rtoym: ok, I'll try that 22:43:13 fe[nl]ix: If that doesn't work, let me know and I'll what I can do. 22:44:20 Er see what I can do. 22:44:49 -!- moah [~gnu@188.109.145.248] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:45:17 -!- mtk [~mtk@ool-18e4dfad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:47:52 -!- varjag [~eugene@84.118.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:57 redline6561: let me know if there's anything I can do to help with your friend's father. 22:48:28 gigamonkey: Will do. He loved Coders at Work. *sigh* 22:48:38 Well, that's a start. 22:48:55 p_l, how much longer do you have? 22:50:42 manic12: for my MSci? 3 years, assuming I manage to pass my resits (it's not like I don't understand the topic, but my "issues" prevented me from properly taking care of some of the subjects, leading to failure in getting enough credits) 22:50:50 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:51:23 to be correct, the program is 3 years for BSci, then a year of industrial placement, then a year for MSci (it's not exactly full Master's degree, but close) 22:51:30 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:51:35 I just went through my second year 22:51:44 of undergrad? 22:51:46 *p_l* still learned most of his stuff by himself 22:53:17 yeah, unfortunately. And financial problems don't help it. Guess I need to get some minimal pay menial work and prepare funds :/ 22:53:53 Uh-oh. "PC-OFFSET (-125228) not in code object." 22:54:06 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:54:14 I thought I'd managed to nail that one. :-( 22:54:46 manic12: and unfortunately my second brush with work a year ago backfired badly on me 22:55:02 i have had that experience 22:55:35 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has joined #lisp 22:55:38 I'm very fortunate to be in a good environment now 22:55:48 Oh, right, I see where I screwed up on that. :-/ 22:56:14 but other jobs have been political nightmares 22:56:32 -!- Shmur is now known as shady 22:57:06 -!- shady is now known as Shmur 22:57:25 sellout [~greg@111.Red-80-34-183.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:22 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:59:11 manic12: well, in my case, it was also financial crisis :/ 23:03:11 isn't a job supposed to alleviate that? 23:03:42 manic12: not when it really fails horribly (on both sides, I'll admit) 23:04:22 so either they were not paying you or you were not spending your money wisely or something 23:06:11 1) I wasn't paid properly and I didn't think of ensuring the payments 2) Due to lack of any real structure at the startup etc. as well as the fact that I was the only one working on the code and nearly never seen anyone else, my work left a lot to desire. 3) in the end, I got something like 1/2 of monthly wages after 3 months 23:06:36 being homeless doesn't help in finishing up the code to show your boss to get the payments fulfilled 23:06:54 it's not always like that 23:07:33 had I hounded the boss to take be more proactive in the development work, I'd probably not slack so much, and I could get the payments correctly 23:07:48 my inexperience in working *for someone*, not in programming, are what killed it 23:07:50 -!- abugosh [~Adium@70.15.204.182.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:08:11 mtk0 [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:09:31 don't expect your first at-bat to be a grand slam 23:10:08 manic12: it was my second, though 23:10:24 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:10:28 i was 36 when i got my first really good job 23:10:31 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 23:10:34 I really wish I stayed as cable monkey at old job :/ 23:10:58 it payed better than my second job, and was quite good work 23:11:14 (rather junior contracting sysadmin) 23:14:35 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has joined #lisp 23:15:53 I really liked working with "Big Iron" 23:16:14 i hate ironing 23:16:19 :P 23:16:21 even when my boss had screwed sense of humour that could give a 21yo a heart attack :D 23:17:12 (he called the guy I went with to disconnect a server about whether we disconnected it already. Hearing confirmation, he said that half the corporate net just went belly-up...) 23:17:31 -!- mtk0 [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:17:39 sweet 23:17:47 *manic12* chuckles 23:17:49 we are talking about company where "net" doesn't mean the stuff that supports office workers :D 23:18:07 mtk0 [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:22 shattering 1/3rd of mobile comms in a country would be an... achievement 23:18:40 -!- mtk0 [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:18:56 he managed to shock my coworker before his bullshit detector could help him :) 23:19:31 mtk [~mtk@ool-44c6fcaf.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:35 as for Big Iron... it was fun installing big IBM POWER systems :D 23:20:20 crawling under the floor with cables etc. 23:20:27 (that's why "Cable Monkey") 23:20:56 i used to help build 18 ton machines 23:20:59 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 23:25:24 p_l: it is funny how "dirty work" somehow ends up being more fun than any corporate bullshit almost every time.. 23:25:41 udzinari: yeah. Especially dirty work on giant or powerful machines :3 23:25:52 -!- kloeri_ is now known as kloeri 23:26:22 *p_l* finds the whine of several heavy-duty servers to be soothing 23:26:47 kinda like the roar of jet engines at full power :3 23:27:57 much better than all the fuzz in the open-space & cubicle environments imho 23:28:33 open-space isn't good for programming work 23:28:36 p_l: I'd love to mine's heat your way. 23:28:56 open-space is horrible for programming. 23:29:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:29:14 -!- sellout [~greg@111.Red-80-34-183.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 23:29:25 Actually, I'm doing all my programming work at home, and all the office time I have to do is entirely lost for any productive work. 23:29:45 I've already sat in cockpit of 4.5 gen fighter, now I need to just get a chance of flying one... 23:29:56 is it good for any kind of work? 23:30:10 killing and maiming? :-) 23:30:22 I men't open space 23:30:40 udzinari: it is when you are aimed with Uzi and your enemies with Macs 23:30:43 I guess it let the PHB keep easily an eye on his slaves. 23:30:45 (old joke found on net) 23:31:38 something about Unix guy with Uzi being capable of getting rid of 30 mac users fast (back in 80's) 23:32:19 unix is frustrating 23:32:30 no wonder 23:32:49 manic12: well, like emacs and lisp machines, the point of unix is that you can easily change what frustrates you inside it. 23:33:03 manic12: nah, what I found really frustrating is starry-eyed mac fanboys and their equivalents on other fronts (some linux neophytes are even worse) 23:33:46 Microsoft thanks to being designated whipping boy seems to have hid such people better, though 23:34:04 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has joined #lisp 23:35:26 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:33 yes, microsoft should never die so that we can all have something to complain about 23:35:48 manic12: besides, I'm currious what you could find frustrating in unix? 23:35:57 to avoid pointing the finger at ourselves 23:36:50 on freebsd, it boots on usb fine until it loads the o/s usb driver and then can't mount root 23:36:51 manic12: unfortunately, it seems that Microsoft is transforming into a rather a friendly business while Apple takes the place of Orwellian Big Brother... (I mean, "think different" starts to sound like newspeak to me) 23:37:23 p_l is right again 23:37:36 manic12: Yes, that would indeed be frustrating. Linux seems to have solved that problem. May be you could copy it? 23:37:56 there has to be a rootdelay switch somewhere 23:38:09 *manic12* uses ubuntu instead 23:38:42 when not using windoze 23:38:48 well, linux seems to deal with such issues of mounting root by adding a delay till the device it's supposed to switch to becomes available 23:46:22 And debian even has a busybox inside its initrd in case it cannot mount root... 23:46:23 if i could only teach the dryer to text me when it's done 23:47:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:48:50 actually that would be pretty easy if you have a device with an a/d channel and debian 23:48:50 manic12: you could put a computer-on-a-chip with an optical captor and ethernet in front of it to send you an email when it doesn't seen any movement for a while. 23:49:14 just expensive 23:49:33 Less than 100 , I'd guess. 23:49:48 99 for guru plug 23:49:54 dunno if it has a/d 23:50:45 you could probably use a teensy or whatever it's called to go analog to usb 23:51:04 $117 plus labor 23:53:02 ikki [~ikki@189.139.217.17] has joined #lisp 23:53:22 Meh. It vibrates when in operation. Stick a microphone on it and watch the input levels. 23:54:43 how about a thermometer which could give you a heads up as it cools 23:55:43 vibration is better source of information, I believe 23:56:10 though you'd need to ensure your program takes time into account, so it can detect short pauses 23:57:29 as for equipment, a cheap arduino board or something similar would be enough 23:57:33 just set the alarm clock on your cell phone 23:57:49 with an analog source to record vibrations