00:00:08 Hi! I'm a lisp newbie and have been using CLISP + Vim through Limp for a few days now. I find the error messages CLISP produces a little cryptic. Is there a way to get CLISP to product better error messages? 00:01:00 I think the only way to get better messages is to modify clisp to produce better messages. 00:01:06 or to learn more Lisp 00:01:35 I guessed so. 00:01:44 sanjoyd: what do you find cryptic about them? 00:02:31 For instance, what does 'Returning to top level' mean? 00:03:05 *rtoym* thinks that falls under the "learn more Lisp" category. :-) 00:03:17 And why am I seeing ((LAMBDA (X) 1):EXTERNAL? 00:03:24 rtoym, true. 00:03:26 the top-level is where you can enter lisp expressions and have them evaluated 00:03:36 adeht, makes sense. 00:03:53 I'm sure I'll be able to make more sense of these messages in due time, as I learn more LISP. 00:04:20 Just that I come from a C/C++ background and am used to seeing stuff like 'Line 42: foo not defined'. 00:04:40 Was wondering if I was missing something. Thanks anyways. :) 00:04:55 *sanjoyd* goes back to 'Practical Common LISP'. 00:05:05 About the second message, I'm not really sure. What were you doing and how did you get that message? 00:05:20 likely it's part of a backtrace 00:06:01 Was doing something like this (count 1 #'(1 2 3 4 5 6) #'(lambda (x) (format t "~a~%" x) x)) 00:06:14 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:06:19 Sorry, (count 1 #'(1 2 3 4 5 6) :test #'(lambda (x) (format t "~a~%" x) x)) 00:06:35 Maxima turns out to be a pretty good regression test for floating-point arithmetic. 00:06:48 sanjoyd: #'foo is a shorthand for (function foo) 00:06:57 sanjoyd: so #'(1 2 3 4 5 6) makes little sense 00:07:07 Sorry, I meant #(1 2 3 4) 00:07:30 *sanjoyd* did all his high-school homework integration in Maxima. 00:08:01 clhs count 00:08:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_countc.htm 00:08:11 sanjoyd: the test parameter takes a binary function 00:08:31 perhaps you want :key 00:08:37 Oh. 00:09:04 Yes, :key should be it. I don't 'want' anything in particular though, just screwing around to learn 00:09:16 Thanks for the help. 00:09:49 Works.:) 00:10:30 gonzojive [~red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 00:10:44 http://paste.lisp.org/+2EGF/1 00:10:49 *Xach* wonders what's missing from http://src.quicklisp.org/systems/2010-06-30/systems.txt 00:10:57 anybody know how to get a pointer to a foreing function with CFFI? I need to pass the function pointer as an argument to a C function 00:12:12 Now writes a .swank-loader.lisp as per clbuild. 00:12:21 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 00:12:36 gonzojive: perhaps you want cffi:foreign-symbol-pointer 00:12:57 working on dowing the .start-slime.el 00:13:14 adeht: that will do, thanks 00:13:16 Xach: atdoc 00:13:58 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:14:13 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Quit: home] 00:15:55 tau [~tau@189-127-58-253.i-next.psi.br] has joined #lisp 00:16:15 what is the best haskell or lisp ? 00:16:32 <_3b> tau: they are both horrible 00:16:47 nyef: I'm not sure why barrier is a progn-variant. That seems confusing to me. 00:17:21 _3b: LOL 00:17:23 foom: Because it was sufficiently easy to add the progn when adding the multiple-value-prog1. 00:17:43 -!- thunk is now known as thunk|away 00:17:48 _3b: what is worse ? 00:18:16 <_3b> tau: well, haslell takes 3 more letters to type, so i vote it is worse 00:18:17 I mean, (barrier (:read) blah blah blah blah blah blah (etcetc)) it seems confusing that the barrier happens at the end but is notated at the beginning. 00:18:28 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:18:54 I don't see why you don't just have a form like (barrier :read) instead. 00:18:55 _3b: LOL 00:18:55 That's a degenerate case, really. 00:19:01 <_3b> tau: (without more context, you aren't likely to get useful answers, and even then they probably won't be very helpful) 00:19:25 It's more for the case of "oh, we're returning this value, but we need a write barrier after computing it but before we return". 00:19:45 _3b: say me why you program in lisp in place of haskell, i find it will be suitable to quit my doubts. 00:19:48 Thus the m-v-prog1. 00:19:51 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-118-115.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:28 I suppose -- I just don't see why returning a value is any business of the barrier syntax, and not, say, the guy calling it. 00:20:31 <_3b> tau: i haven't tried haskell, i moved to lisp from c++ because i wanted better metaprogramming, and to not need a separate 'scripting' language bolted on 00:20:32 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D412.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:21:27 sure, _3b . 00:21:55 It's one of those potential-convenience things. You don't have to use it if you don't want, and then the barrier devolves to (barrier (:read)), returning NIL. 00:22:03 <_3b> tau: lisp is also very flexible, so it is good for prototyping, but it also has the option of being fast, so prototypes can be converted to production code without switching languages 00:22:04 It's not like anybody should be using this stuff outside of the implementation of locks and other threadsafe/atomic data structures, right? 00:22:30 Right, but they haven't been so far, and some of it needs retrofitting. 00:23:27 _3b: i studied haskell for some topics, but i stopped i find it disgusting. 00:23:48 i want to get a functional language to program a chess algorithm. 00:24:28 yea. cause none of those are actually necessary on x86. :) 00:24:46 (except compiler barrier, I suppose) 00:24:53 <_3b> tau: this channel is mainly about common lisp, which doesn't worry as much about 'functional', it lets you use metaprogramming, functional, oo, etc as appropriate 00:25:18 _3b: sure. 00:26:21 Right, and SBCL doesn't even -do- the kind of reordering that requires a compiler barrier, AFAICT. 00:27:21 So, no actual objection to the docstring, just to the design? 00:27:29 I think your description of :data-dependency is wrong. 00:27:38 although I'm having trouble getting my head around it 00:28:04 Yeah, I had to re-read the relevant section of the mentioned kernel document twice before I wrote it. 00:28:28 It basically ensures that all reads before the barrier complete before the reads after the barrier begin, or something like that. 00:28:37 I think there's a better example in arch/x86/include/asm/system.h 00:28:47 strangely enough, considering it's a noop there. 00:28:55 Yeah, it's an alpha-only thing. 00:29:06 All other known CPUs handle it in hardware. 00:30:37 -!- fsmunoz [~fsmunoz@a85-138-208-213.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:31:15 I think the important thing to note is that it *only* works when there's a dependency chain between the loads. 00:31:17 -!- chee [~chee@unaffiliated/chee] has quit [Quit: <3 =^.^= ?>] 00:31:56 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:32:20 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:32:49 Mmm... Okay, that's a fair point. 00:32:50 ...And the reason for that is not because it's a magic type of cpu barrier, but because it only does *anything* on alphas. 00:33:09 because other CPUs already take care of dependent chain consistency. 00:37:00 (which I did not realize before today, actually. I would have expected read barriers to be required there in most non-x86 architectures) 00:37:39 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:42:21 Yeah, it's -just- the alphas. 00:44:06 -!- thunk|away is now known as thunk 00:44:19 I find the way that memory-barriers.txt describes it as being a magic type of memory barrier is really confusing, because I couldn't imagine that any CPU actually had such a weird barrier. 00:44:46 not until I looked and saw that it really meant "read-barrier only on alpha" did it start to make sense. :) 00:46:39 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:04 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:17 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:31 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Quit: Esto se acabooooooo ...] 00:53:11 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:18 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:55:32 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:00:28 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-205-79.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:49 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77.46.249.239] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:03:50 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:49 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:09:18 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:27 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:16:18 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 01:16:46 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 01:18:33 p0a [~p0a@athedsl-4374285.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 01:18:56 I'm getting a FLOATING-POINT-INVALID-OPERATION error when calling into foreign code. Do I need to disable interrupts or something fancy to prevent this kind of error while in foreign code? 01:19:05 Hello is it possible to return the elements of a list as VALUES? 01:19:30 <_3b> gonzojive: probably need to change FP traps settings around the call 01:19:38 ie (let ((l '(1 2 3))) (my-function l)) => 1 2 3 01:19:55 <_3b> clhs values-list 01:19:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vals_l.htm 01:20:09 thanks!! 01:20:27 clhs multiple-value-list 01:20:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_mult_1.htm 01:20:36 p0a: That sounds dangerous. Wouldn't there be a limit on the number of VALUES a function can return? 01:21:43 I am writing a read-n function 01:21:45 <_3b> gonzojive: possibly something like sb-int:with-float-traps-masked (:invalid :divide-by-zero) on sbcl 01:22:02 (read-n-symbols 3) ==> 'foo 'bar 'baz 01:22:15 (supposing *standard-input* contains foo bar baz) 01:22:56 That is so I can latter do (destructuring-bind (x _ y) (f)) because the second read is not used at that point 01:23:18 <_3b> destructuring-bind works on lists 01:23:30 even better! 01:23:34 <_3b> m-v-b is for multiple values 01:23:41 solves the problem balooga pointed out :-) 01:23:46 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@166.188.122.68] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 01:23:52 _3b: invaluable advice! I believe everything worked as it should have 01:23:53 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 01:24:06 <_3b> yeah, if you have a list, returning it as a list and destructuring it sounds reasonable 01:24:12 okay new question: Read a symbol from a stream, how? I could use READ, but that would read more than just symbols 01:24:24 -!- tau [~tau@189-127-58-253.i-next.psi.br] has left #lisp 01:24:44 _3b: is this a common enough issue that a cross-lisp library is in order? 01:25:11 <_3b> if you don't want to use READ, you will probably need to build a trivial parser and then call find-symbol (or intern depending on whether you want to be able to make new symbols or not) 01:26:01 <_3b> gonzojive: don't know... cl-opengl has a macro for it, but doesn't look like anyone has needed to implement it for other platforms yet 01:26:31 balooga: Are you thinking of MULTIPLE-VALUES-LIMIT? 01:27:03 nyef: Yes. 01:28:13 -!- Matrox [~Matrox@unaffiliated/matrox] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:28:16 nyef: But is seems that multiple-value-bind has the same issue, that being the upper limit is implementation independent. 01:28:34 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:29:36 (Said limit is stupidly high in SBCL.) 01:29:49 tau [~tau@189-127-58-253.i-next.psi.br] has joined #lisp 01:30:10 hey, i forgot to ask for one book of common lisp, and one to introduce me into the AI programming. 01:31:43 PAIP is excellent 01:31:44 minion: PAIP? 01:31:45 PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 01:31:55 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:00 There is an implementation of an A* search in "Common Lisp Modules". I was quite surprised. 01:32:03 humm. 01:32:05 sure. 01:32:09 i will get it. 01:32:14 thank you. 01:32:18 PAIP is slightly-old common lisp, and very old AI, but excellent presentation of how to think about programming. 01:32:59 http://www.4shared.com/document/msGKPDxz/Common_Lisp_the_Language_2nd_E.htm 01:33:06 i will get this to introduce me into lisp. 01:33:08 is it nice ? 01:37:30 tau: this is not a beginner's book 01:37:33 tau: it is nice, but not a tutorial or introduction 01:37:40 minion: tell tau about pcl 01:37:41 tau: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 01:38:56 humm, sure. 01:39:00 thank you guys. 01:39:03 minion: all right. 01:39:04 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 01:40:37 :) 01:41:13 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 01:42:47 CLtL2 is a nice book, but it's neither an authoritative reference nor a tutorial. 01:43:19 How can I take the n first elements of a list? 01:43:28 I mean, is there a standard function for it? 01:43:30 clhs subseq 01:43:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 01:43:37 Also works on vectors. 01:43:49 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:45:59 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-109-120.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:48:36 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:49:57 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:49 How do I get a pointer to a primitive type like a double with CFFI? the lisp equivalent of "double x; foo(&x); " I tried (with-foreign-object (x :double) ...) but x is not a pointer 01:51:24 How would you write explode in lisp? 01:51:36 ie (string-explode " " "hello world") => ("hello" "world") 01:51:52 gonzojive: yes it is 01:52:20 adeht: you're right, sorry for the mistake 01:52:26 minion: tell p0a about split-sequence 01:52:27 p0a: look at split-sequence: SPLIT-SEQUENCE (formerly known as PARTITION) is a member of the Common Lisp Utilities family of programs, designed by community consensus. http://www.cliki.net/split-sequence 01:52:39 not a very good description :/ 01:54:19 thanks! 01:56:45 nyef: re compiler barrier, would you be comfortable with instead a form that enables reordering? 01:57:20 pkhuong: How do you mean? 01:57:27 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 01:57:35 AFAIK, python doesn't reorder right now anyway. 01:57:58 Right, but if I wanted to implement reordering transforms. 01:58:29 (with-reordering forms...) would allow reordering within forms, plus a local macro, without-reordering to lexically disable it. 02:01:31 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-114-116.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 02:02:11 Actually, I think the question is, can you just enable the reordering without breaking CL semantics? 02:02:18 tsuru` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:37 depends on safety level, mostly. 02:02:39 At which point, wouldn't you just throw it into compiler policy anyway? 02:03:01 And then what you want is the barrier form. 02:03:09 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:03:10 But yeah, that was raised during the FP optimisation discussions 02:03:42 nyef: the key point here is that, if reordering is lexically scoped, then it's easier to tell which forms can be reordered against each other. 02:03:52 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:03:56 Mmm... I guess. 02:04:39 With a barrier function, the compiler has to deduce whether there might be a barrier between two operations. 02:05:02 At least, there's jsnell's loop classification code... 02:05:48 Hang on, all of the actual memory barriers are predicated on being compiler barriers with a touch of code generation already. 02:06:19 So you still have to do that analysis. 02:06:22 nyef: yeah.. but your current interface is actually nice, in that it helps the compiler. 02:07:04 (since we can interpret it as allowing reordering only within the forms inside the barrier) 02:07:18 -!- p0a [~p0a@athedsl-4374285.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:08:07 So you want kindof a reordering-progn? 02:08:44 right. That's easyish to compile (I've done it ;) 02:09:17 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:24 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has left #lisp 02:09:39 I'm still failing to understand what you're talking about, I'm afraid. 02:11:19 well, there's two things here: if we go with barrier functions for an interface, we have to be able to efficiently tell when a barrier might be executed between two operations. 02:11:54 -!- tsuru` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:08 tsuru` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:30 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-109-120.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:12:55 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:10 The second thing is that it doesn't compose nicely. If I have an inline function or a macro that uses a barrier, the compiler barrier will affect the function's caller. 02:14:13 So... you're saying that overloading the barrier interface I've specified is helpful for this? 02:14:18 Yup. 02:14:21 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-109-120.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:14:41 But this doesn't actually affect what I'm doing now? 02:15:10 no, it does argue against foom's point that you should expose only the C-style interface. 02:15:22 hold on 02:15:29 I don't understand your argument. 02:15:44 Of *course* an inline function will affect the caller 02:15:46 <_3b> would it make sense to have something that looked like a tagbody, with barriers for tags make sense, and anything outside the form could be moved to the other side of the form, but stuff inside was limited by the barriers? 02:15:52 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:16:02 (progn (reordering-progn ...) (barrier) (reordering-progn ...)) ? 02:16:10 But a compiler barrier isn't magic 02:16:16 you can implement it like this: 02:16:25 (defun do-nothing ()) 02:16:37 (defmacro insert-compiler-barrier () `(do-nothing)) 02:17:13 obviously you'd want to implement it in a nicer way than that, but that should be entirely sufficient 02:17:27 but, unless you have a reordering compiler, this doesn't matter. 02:17:35 if you *do* have a reordering compiler, you don't want to restrict it to tiny ranges. 02:18:14 minion: paste 112061 02:18:15 Paste number 112061: "Lexically scoped barriers" by pkhuong in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/112061 02:18:46 I think you're talking about a totally different thing. 02:19:03 pkhuong: Bah. Just have a moral equivalent to WITHOUT-SCHEDULING. 02:19:28 You're talking about telling the compiler it's safe to reoder some things that are not obviously safe 02:19:44 foom: pretty much nothing is safe, with CL semantics. 02:19:48 The compiler barriers are to inform the compiler that it's *not* safe to reorder something that is obviously safe. 02:20:43 pkhuong: I don't believe that at all. SBCL's compiler is remarkably bad at codegen, but there's a lot it *could* do. 02:21:27 foom: specified left-to-right and just about anything that could trigger runtime errors? That's pretty hard to reorder. 02:21:39 Hey, look at that  CCL for Win32 now contains (experimental) support (and DLLs) for Cocotron :) 02:21:40 foom: would an implicit reordering-progn make you happy about the default? 02:22:00 http://clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2010-July/011656.html 02:22:09 it's only hard if you're restricting yourself to looking at the macro level. 02:22:27 where by macro I mean large 02:24:09 or, consider something like: (let ((x (struct-slot-1 struct)) (y (struct-slot-2 struct)))). The compiler can do those reads in any order it pleases. 02:24:37 It knows that nothing else "could possibly" have modified the struct in between. 02:24:52 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:25:38 foom: only if they're safe, or because it's been infused with the knowledge that they have the same failure modes. 02:25:57 -!- tau [~tau@189-127-58-253.i-next.psi.br] has left #lisp 02:26:17 pkhuong: well, it gets expanded to a type check and a load. 02:26:35 so, it can omit the redundant typecheck, and then do the loads whenever it feels like. 02:27:38 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:57 Which is fine (and a good thing!), unless you're trying to do cross-thread synchronization, in which case you need to make sure that one read actually happens before the other. 02:28:15 -!- barcon332 [~barcon332@208.89.210.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:28:25 -!- silenius [~silenius@c-24-130-172-194.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:31:50 even if it has to do two typechecks, it can still do the loads in any order it likes after that. 02:32:45 foom: and, actually, with type redefinitions, there could be observable differences :\ 02:33:11 -!- _3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:33:16 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:34:17 " The consequences of redefining a defstruct structure are undefined. " 02:34:27 -!- thunk is now known as thunk|away 02:37:05 In any case, something without-scheduling is bad: you almost never need to totally inhibit instruction reorder, just inhibit movement across a barrier. 02:37:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has left #lisp 02:39:28 foom: that's why you want both without-scheduling and with-scheduling. 02:40:17 The other view is that you rarely want to inhibit all movements, but rather to ensure ordering between chunks of code. 02:40:54 Snamich [~Snamich@166.188.122.68] has joined #lisp 02:41:06 kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:37 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:25 tcr [~tcr@115.132.78.233] has joined #lisp 02:48:45 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.78.233] has left #lisp 02:49:40 tcr [~tcr@115.132.78.233] has joined #lisp 02:50:09 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 02:51:08 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:51:12 ... I believe I have some sleep to get. 02:51:16 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:51:59 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-86-147.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:00 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:04 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:17 Jubb [Jubb@res55553268.rh.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 02:53:58 hi, would it be ok to ask some newbish questions about the structure of a common lisp function? 02:54:43 No way to know if it's ok until you ask the question. 02:55:24 Ok, so I want to write a function that just calls 3 functions in the body 02:55:58 that take no parameters 02:56:00 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:36 do I just write them one after the other on the same line, or do I need parens separating them? 02:56:58 (func1) (func2) (func3) 02:57:14 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-45-119.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 02:57:19 k thanks, I told you it was newbish. I'm still struggling with the syntax 02:57:26 This is a really, really newbie question, so you would benefit greatly if you got a book to read. 02:57:32 minion: tell Jubb about pcl 02:57:33 Jubb: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:57:53 Thank you. 02:59:08 Good luck. If you get stuck, come back and ask more questions. 02:59:25 Thanks, will do. 02:59:32 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:00:03 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-160-243-60.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:13 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:15 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 03:04:29 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:06:02 -!- baddog [~user@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08:20 So it seems on sbcl, :if-exists :new-version is pretty much like :error 03:08:43 I'd have hoped it adds a .N where N is incremented 03:10:22 I think only cmucl actually uses versions. It uses emacs-style file versioning. 03:12:14 Well, it's exactly what I need right now :-) 03:13:22 vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:49 I don't think anyone actually uses that feature. (Well, except when cmucl builds the po and pot files, which do use versioning.) 03:15:58 Actually I don't want versioning, just backups of the old file. 03:16:29 However, it seems to be that :rename two times in a row will overwrite the backup file 03:18:10 -!- thunk|away is now known as thunk 03:18:22 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:33 That's not really surprising since :rename just renames the file to foo.BAK or something like that. 03:20:39 (At least on cmucl.) 03:21:23 Hmm. Should I delete the cvs tag and recreate it, or just add a new tag? 03:21:53 So can I use DIRECTORY to return a list of all files i /tmp/ beginning with "foo"? If so how? 03:22:20 Or can it only return all files in /tmp/ and I have to match on the returned list? 03:24:23 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:24:34 I think that depends on the implementation. 03:25:37 Cmucl allows you to do (directory "/tmp/foo*") to get what ls /tmp/foo* would return, more or less. 03:26:13 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:27:12 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:36 I always remind myself that cl:directory takes a (probably wild) pathname, and returns files that match it. Thinking about it in Unix shell terms leads to confusion. 03:30:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:30:46 How is that different? 03:30:49 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:32:36 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:36:04 Good morning! 03:37:20 -!- cmsimon [~tific@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:46:33 Bah directory is specified to return truenames 03:47:03 cl-fad's walk-directory endlessly recurses on my /tmp  there must be some symbolic link loop 03:48:17 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 03:48:49 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:48:50 -!- jga [1000@189.216.138.175] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:49:34 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:51:15 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:49 symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:41 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 03:54:46 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-17-206-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:55 _3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:57:02 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:57:09 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:08:57 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:09:28 -!- _3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:10:12 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100628124739]] 04:16:06 -!- tsuru` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:28 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-86-147.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:17:38 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-29.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:21:50 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-109-114.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:05 hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:23:26 evening 04:25:00 hello slyrus 04:25:09 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-112-4.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:26:05 -!- rme [rme@clozure-63F64230.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:26:05 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-137-141.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:26:56 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 04:28:24 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:31:30 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-108-16.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 04:31:52 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-109-114.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:31:53 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:32:04 _3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:36:01 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:36:39 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-85-115.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:13 -!- _3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:39:18 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 04:41:31 _3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:46:10 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:47:39 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 04:49:21 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-108-16.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:50:00 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:50:25 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-108-16.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 04:53:18 symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:50 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-108-16.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: hefner] 05:05:51 beach: I hate those bottles that are borderline corked. Not horrible, but just enough TCA around to be a buzzkill. 05:07:16 -!- clog [nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:07:19 clog [nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 05:09:04 oops. forgot to add "enhancement: ASDF2" to NEWS before the release. 05:11:58 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.65] has joined #lisp 05:17:29 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:23:52 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:30:42 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:30:50 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 05:33:39 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.133.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:34:11 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:34:39 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-240-70.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:39:54 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:42:13 seraph_lld [~wondersha@121.15.134.202] has joined #lisp 05:46:58 Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-117-84.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:21 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:49:48 -!- dym [~dym@217.20.175.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:51:09 somehipbody [~somebody@99.165.6.220] has joined #lisp 05:51:35 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 05:51:38 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:51:49 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:57:16 dym [~dym@217.20.175.226] has joined #lisp 06:04:50 jjong [~user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 06:11:31 -!- jjong [~user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:12:12 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:12:14 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.165.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:24 hello lispers 06:12:32 drewc, hello 06:12:42 are you the CL.net admin ? 06:13:56 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-207.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:15:16 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@host131.72.248.64.conversent.net] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 06:15:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:20:46 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-144-13-73.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:58 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.6/20100628124739]] 06:24:41 -!- R3cur51v3 is now known as Recur51v3 06:24:44 -!- Recur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 06:27:37 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:33:28 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 06:34:58 jvia [~via@ip98-176-220-233.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:45 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:52 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 06:42:00 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:42:17 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: tfb] 06:42:36 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:43:11 good morning 06:43:49 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-45-119.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:44:03 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 06:47:55 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 06:48:31 Joreji [~thomas@69-201.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:49:50 galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-54-84.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 06:50:55 -!- somehipbody [~somebody@99.165.6.220] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:51:36 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-nqiwuwnszgjcwhly] has joined #lisp 06:53:30 hello mvilleneuve 06:54:30 ASau [~user@77.246.230.240] has joined #lisp 07:01:38 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:01:40 dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:41 -!- Toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-117-84.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:01:41 -!- bgs000 [cheshire@gateway/shell/57o9.org/x-jlycofuhsvyelckb] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:01:42 spiaggia: will you be at the UFR council meeting next tuesday? 07:02:15 -!- Jubb [Jubb@res55553268.rh.rit.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:02:16 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:02:16 -!- bgum23 [~bgum23@HERTZ.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:02:16 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-102-44.singnet.com.sg] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:02:17 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:02:17 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:02:17 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:02:18 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-237-76.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:02:18 -!- df_aldur [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:02:18 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:02:18 -!- pkhuong_ [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:02:18 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:02:18 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:03:16 -!- thunk [~thunk@unaffiliated/thunk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:04:38 Jubb [Jubb@res55553268.rh.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 bgum23 [~bgum23@HERTZ.UNI-MUENSTER.DE] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-102-44.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-237-76.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 df_aldur [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 pkhuong_ [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:04:38 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 07:04:49 -!- aw [~aw@147.81-166-214.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04:50 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:04:50 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:05:00 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:05:11 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:18 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 07:05:44 -!- ASau [~user@77.246.230.240] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:06:00 thunk [~thunk@unaffiliated/thunk] has joined #lisp 07:06:10 kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:06:13 catnap [~terimpil@radio-65.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 07:06:21 ASau` [~user@77.246.230.240] has joined #lisp 07:06:37 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:06:58 I tried to install cl-utils, but it doesn't seem to work - how can I check if it is properly installed? 07:07:04 -!- mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:07:06 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:07:26 -!- mindCrime is now known as mindCrime_ 07:07:42 -!- super` [~super_@pool-173-65-48-13.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:08:04 eldragon_ [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 07:08:13 splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:08:18 morning 07:08:56 hi splittist 07:10:33 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:10:38 fiveop [~fiveop@g229176143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:12:09 catnap: why not alexandra? 07:14:28 leo2007: what is alexandra? 07:17:14 <_3b> minion: tell catnap about alexandria 07:17:15 catnap: direct your attention towards alexandria: Alexandria is a collection of portable public domain utilities. http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 07:17:35 -!- loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:18:20 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 07:18:50 MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:27 quicklisp completing-read systems.txt -> hash-table 07:19:36 http://paste.lisp.org/+2EGX 07:19:50 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Client Quit] 07:21:42 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:22:55 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 07:23:26 I tried simple "apt-get install alexandria" - hopefully that worked 07:23:38 why does (require 'asdf) return nil? 07:24:19 <_3b> because the spec doesn't specify what REQUIRE returns? 07:25:33 <_3b> probably means it worked, if it didn't signal an error 07:27:39 there was no error message - I would just expect to see t instead of nil 07:28:17 this having been said, the asdf seems to work 07:28:37 but it displays this: No key found for key id 0x#1=F1DCE557E86007A0. 07:28:55 <_3b> asdf != asdf-install 07:29:24 <_3b> asdf is for loading things that are already on the filesystem somewhere asdf can find them 07:29:31 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 07:29:46 <_3b> asdf-install is a way to download things and put them somewhere asdf can find them 07:30:51 <_3b> asdf-install relies on links on a publicly editable wiki (cliki.net), so uses gpg signatures to try to reduce the risk of any random person changing the link to something ,alicious 07:31:07 <_3b> *malicious 07:31:27 -!- jvia [~via@ip98-176-220-233.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:31:58 <_3b> you can either try to get the keys it is asking for, ignore the warning if it looks like it downloaded it from somewhere you trust, or switch to some other method of downloading things and putting them where asdf can find them 07:32:04 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:32:09 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229176143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 07:32:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@69-201.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:34:41 xan_ [~xan@chello213047069075.1.13.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:34:53 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:36:18 sanjoyd [~sanjoyd@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 07:36:42 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:37:23 Edward_ [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-27-48.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:40:45 zomgbie [~jesus@188.45.22.134] has joined #lisp 07:44:45 k3yb1n [~abraham@host-190-11-72-95.supernet.com.bo] has joined #lisp 07:45:01 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:47:15 the problem still remains - how can I install cl-utils and test it? 07:47:34 I did install alexandria, but it didn't do anyting 07:47:43 <_3b> did you load it? 07:47:59 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@188.45.22.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:48:14 <_3b> and which way did you install it? 07:48:25 zomgbie [~jesus@188.45.22.134] has joined #lisp 07:49:23 -!- MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:50:34 I installed with (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :alexandria) 07:50:55 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:59 <_3b> that loads, not installed, but if that worked, you should have alexandria available 07:51:00 actually I managed to install cl-utils with asdf-install 07:51:26 now this complains about grid which is not found automatically by asdf-install 07:52:30 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:52:31 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.200.255] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 07:53:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:53:49 <_3b> so now you should be able to do things like (alexandria:factorial 10) or whatever 07:54:24 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@188.45.22.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:54:48 _3b: that worked! 07:56:57 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.130.253] has joined #lisp 07:57:00 *_3b* doesn't know anything about 'cl-utils', but if you are looking for something specific from it, migfht be able to tell if alexandria has something similar 07:57:39 <_3b> or you can look at the draft docs at http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/draft/alexandria.pdf to see some of what it does 07:58:02 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 07:58:11 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:58:13 <_3b> (or look at slime symbol completion, or apropos, etc) 07:59:53 zomgbie [~jesus@188.45.22.134] has joined #lisp 08:05:21 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 08:06:52 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:07:01 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 08:07:49 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:08:18 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-108-240.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:26 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 08:08:48 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:03 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:13:52 timor [~timor@port-92-195-123-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:14:29 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:18:45 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@188.45.22.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:19:31 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:24:34 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-123-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24:45 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.98] has joined #lisp 08:28:47 is there videos around for ilc 2009? 08:31:20 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755a19.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:53 vu3rdd` [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 08:32:48 -!- vu3rdd` [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Client Quit] 08:32:57 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:35:49 zomgbie [~jesus@188.45.148.175] has joined #lisp 08:35:53 pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:18 relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 08:37:35 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 08:39:36 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 08:39:40 ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has joined #lisp 08:42:37 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:42:47 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:42:52 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Client Quit] 08:45:08 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@188.45.148.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:47:10 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:47:35 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.56.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:48:50 nostoi [~nostoi@253.Red-79-145-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:06 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 08:55:05 -!- xan_ [~xan@chello213047069075.1.13.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:55:59 does sbcl have threads on osx by default? 08:59:35 leo2007: I think you need to configure it at compilation time in all cases. No default. 08:59:56 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 09:00:31 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: This system is going down for poweroff RIGHT FREAKING NOW!!!] 09:00:38 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:00:45 last time I did, it seems threading was not well supported on osx. 09:00:49 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@253.Red-79-145-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 09:02:22 ephcon [~ephcon@ppp-71-139-27-46.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:40 I want to use iolib.pathnames. But I am curious what features does it bring? 09:02:41 <_3b> as far as i know, it is only enabled by default on linux x86 and x8664 09:05:29 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:05:57 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest25108 09:06:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:08:21 Well, the sbcl I have on MacOSX 10.6 (installed from MacPort) has the SB-THREAD package. 09:11:54 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:15:14 any idea why these patches are merged upstream (http://trac.macports.org/browser/trunk/dports/lang/sbcl/files)? 09:15:20 aren't 09:16:07 pjb`: do you experience any problem with it? 09:17:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:17:16 aw [~aw@147.81-166-214.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:04 -!- pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:20:59 pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:00 what directory does asdf normally use? 09:24:35 catnap: in which circumstances ? 09:25:39 in linux 09:25:49 and with slime and sbcl 09:27:07 -!- aw [~aw@147.81-166-214.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:27:43 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755a19.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:28:40 catnap: you mean where does it put FASLs during compilation ? 09:29:32 leo2007: the posix one is not a fix (a proper fix has been committed a few weeks ago, iirc) 09:29:56 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:30:23 -!- seraph_lld [~wondersha@121.15.134.202] has left #lisp 09:31:03 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:39 fe[nl]ix: when I download something with asdf install, it must put those files somewhere 09:32:00 leo2007: and I'm not sure if the others are at all valuable. 09:32:25 one turns on sb-threads and the other fixes a problem that I don't think has existed in a year. 09:32:26 catnap: asdf-install is not asdf 09:32:29 so what directory should I specify to asdf so that it can find files? 09:33:35 try looking into ~/.asdf-install or ~/.sbcl 09:33:48 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:34:27 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:46 it seems that the files are in ~/.sbcl 09:38:51 catnap: and please try to speak more precisely 09:40:21 I will be more precise from now on 09:41:51 asdf seemed to find the files downloaded with asdf-install even before I pushed the ~/.sbcs/systems directory to asdf central registry - is there a link between the programs even as they are different programs? 09:42:53 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:12 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:44:13 catnap: what version of asdf are you using ? the one included in your sbcl ? 09:44:17 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:45:58 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:46:16 fe[nl]ix: yes - I'm using the default 09:46:39 which sbcl version ? 09:48:22 "1.0.29.11.debian" 09:48:48 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-44-10.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 09:49:02 zomgbie [~jesus@chello062178135013.2.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:49:34 I'd guess that at load-time, :asdf-install pushes ~/.sbcl/systems/ onto asdf:*central-registry* 09:50:14 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-50-108.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:51:10 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:57:27 antifuchs: thanks for the info. do you if there are any problems with threads on osx? any idea why it isn't the default on those systems? 09:57:34 segv [~mb@p54BE77CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:16 threaded tests used to fail from time to time on os x, but I haven't noticed any problems lately 09:58:17 -!- pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:58:46 however, sbcl has a tendency towards conservatism, so they default to shipping the configuration that works 09:59:03 fe[nl]ix: it should push it now if it didn't before 09:59:10 if you wnat threads, you can turn them on; either by using customize-target-features or by patching the source ineptly like the macports guys (: 09:59:18 anybody know if there's SBCL progress on Windows threading? 09:59:37 antifuchs: i think it is time for me to install SBCL again. 09:59:44 (: 10:00:01 antifuchs: are you using it with threads on osx? 10:00:09 Phoodus: somebody was working on that and posted patches just a few days ago 10:00:13 yeah, I'm using threads 10:00:21 cool 10:00:28 single-thread is very painful isn't it? you have to wait for each execution to finish in the repl. 10:00:31 in my low workload, I didn't notice any hangs or deadlocks 10:00:31 anybody uses clisp here? 10:00:33 pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:39 leo2007: depends. 10:00:44 serve-event works, 10:01:11 Phoodus: I'm sure testers would be appreciated (: 10:02:15 yeah, we could put it through its paces 10:02:42 What's a good/convenient place to upload a lisp library source code file to share it with everyone? 10:02:50 right now we're using CCL on Windows, but sbcl32 still runs faster than ccl64 on a win64 system 10:02:57 (non-threaded) 10:04:02 antifuchs: can you give me a direct link? I don't follow sbcl dev myself 10:04:43 -!- Intensity [DbFDVlxpsN@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:05:05 frodef: I like to use github for that 10:05:29 Phoodus: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/14958 10:05:39 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:41 dankeschoen 10:05:49 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:07:37 antifuchs: thanks.. I suppose it's todo with Linus' git? 10:07:48 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:08:10 frodef: github.com - it's a web service (: 10:08:10 Pohsul [Pohsul@83.231.90.164] has joined #lisp 10:08:33 -!- catnap [~terimpil@radio-65.hut.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:08:51 antifuchs: yes, I gathered as much.. :) 10:09:08 yeah (: 10:09:09 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:09 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.5/20100623161114]] 10:09:11 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:09:28 just signed up, but it's still unclear to me if I'm required to use it as a git repository or what. 10:09:42 (..but I'll figure it out, I guess). 10:09:54 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.18.37.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:05 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 10:12:25 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 10:17:42 xan_ [~xan@91-118-2-46.static.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:19:43 hm. I generate a git repo in an empty dir containing the file, and put it up there using the "github" gem (http://github.com/defunkt/github-gem) - that way, it's just gh create "some-name", put the file in, git add . ; git commit; git push, done. 10:22:41 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:26:19 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.130.253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:20 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:26:27 -!- Edward_ [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-27-48.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:26:37 Edward__ [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-31-71.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:27:49 -!- k3yb1n [~abraham@host-190-11-72-95.supernet.com.bo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:35:37 hi frodef! 10:35:38 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:35:55 hi 10:37:09 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:32 does common-lisp.net have git-web ? 10:37:38 yes 10:38:47 behold: http://github.com/frodef/pithy-xml 10:39:14 just what the world needed ;) 10:39:24 fe[nl]ix, how do I reach it ? currently I've created the git repo in /project/cl-api/gl-api.git 10:39:45 pjb`` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:05 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 10:40:11 *Xach* adds pithy-xml to quicklisp 10:40:28 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:40:33 kiuma: you must put it into /project/cl-api/public_html/git/cl-api.git 10:40:54 ok let me try 10:41:18 -!- pjb` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:42:54 fe[nl]ix, http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-api/git/cl-api.git/ ?? it's not git-web 10:43:11 Anyhow, I don't think there was an xml library using packages for namespaces... right? 10:43:50 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AA47.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:06 -!- Edward__ [~edward@AAubervilliers-154-1-31-71.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 10:44:30 kiuma: the repo will be picked up by gitweb in <15 minutes, at http://common-lisp.net/gitweb 10:44:39 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:45:23 ok :) 10:48:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@91-118-2-46.static.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:50:42 xan_ [~xan@91-118-2-46.static.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:51:41 fe[nl]ix, last thing does it have git server or should I tell to clone via http? 10:52:45 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:53:34 lol it's written there :=) 10:54:25 fiveop [~fiveop@dfn6.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has joined #lisp 10:56:32 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:56:32 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 10:56:32 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 10:57:17 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-85-115.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:59:24 Guthur [~michael@host86-160-243-60.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:01:26 frodef: heh, no system file? 11:01:36 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dfn6.rz.tu-ilmenau.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 11:02:10 Xach: uh... asdf? 11:02:46 k3yb1n [~abraham@host-190-11-74-81.supernet.com.bo] has joined #lisp 11:03:07 *frodef* feels slightly out of touch. 11:03:16 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-66-95.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:20 -!- k3yb1n [~abraham@host-190-11-74-81.supernet.com.bo] has left #lisp 11:03:43 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:04:59 yeah 11:05:17 "yeah" the former or latter? :) 11:05:35 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:05:35 (asdf:defsystem #:pithy-xml :components ((:file "pithy-xml"))) in a file named pithy-xml.asd would work. 11:05:44 frodef: can't it be both? :) 11:06:00 Xach: right.. I'll put that in there. 11:06:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:07:02 there. 11:08:00 I'd love to see Marco Baringer's hello-world.mov. Any idea where to download the video? Most of the links I found in google are dead. 11:08:56 leo2007: i would guess it's outdated by now 11:11:05 where is he these days? 11:11:39 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:12:04 Marco? i've seen him here not so long ago 11:12:06 stassats: you should make a new video ;) 11:12:19 frodef: thanks. 11:12:30 Athas`` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:12:33 fe[nl]ix: about UCW? i've never used it 11:12:41 no, about slime 11:12:55 or was hello-world.mov about UCW ? 11:13:05 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:13:09 hello-world.mov is about UCW, and slime.mov is about slime 11:13:26 and slime.mov isn't terribly outdated, though it certainly can be improved 11:13:41 I have slime.mov I think it was a great introductory video. 11:13:54 -!- Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:14:07 leo2007: you should ask drewc about UCW 11:14:10 ah, ok 11:14:31 stassats: ok, thanks. 11:14:45 dysinger [~dysinger@host131.72.248.64.conversent.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:52 Xach: (it's not a very finalized library.. provided as-is etc.) 11:17:44 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:17:44 oh, nice: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.openmcl.devel/5982 11:17:46 frodef: sure 11:17:58 frodef: just like everything else :) 11:18:53 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 11:18:54 pjb``` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:15 rsynnott: very nice! 11:21:03 -!- pjb`` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:22:09 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:26:01 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:27:20 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.240.180] has joined #lisp 11:29:55 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.18.37.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:31 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:32:43 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:30 fiveop [~fiveop@g229176143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:35:56 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:36:19 Not another cross-platform gui library for lisp! TTMWTDI! 11:36:30 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:37:51 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-108-16.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:38:20 ccl might evolve to be the first free common lisp that supports gui out of box in all major platforms. 11:39:05 awesome, can't wait to use it on my iPhone 11:39:47 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 11:40:01 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 11:40:10 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:29 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:41:29 heh. or on some unfortunate friend's android (; 11:43:08 iOS is more of a cage than a platform, no? 11:43:37 iphone has a fractional share of a specialised market 11:43:43 Hardly major platform 11:44:36 But I suppose MacOS and Linux have a even smaller fractional share of the PC market space 11:44:48 a/an 11:44:49 specialised market? and the fractional share is a matter of definition (units sold vs revenue of apps sold) 11:45:28 A phone is quite specialised imo 11:45:55 Guthur: very well, lets leave it at that then :) 11:47:09 Anyway there is the Apple draconian Terms to get on the App store so good luck getting a Lisp past that 11:47:22 Guthur: yeah, that's the bad part :-( 11:48:34 badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:48:34 -!- badipod [~badipod@d110-32-130-188.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 11:48:34 badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 11:49:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:54:49 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 11:56:32 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 11:56:36 -!- bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:57:44 Guthur: it's simple - never become in any way competition to an Apple app/project nor do anything to anger etc. 11:58:07 If you do, they already have prepared the point in regulations that Lisp is not allowed :P 11:59:54 (only C, C++and Objective-C allowed and you can't have interpretersofanysort) 12:00:20 Yeah, I best not comment much more about it, I don't like Apple, I think they are bad for consumer choice, worse so than MS 12:01:20 They have very good product designers and marketing though, which is always going to go far in mass market appeal 12:01:24 meh, consumer choice 12:01:42 Apple succeeds on stripping consumers of choice 12:01:52 "consumers" :) 12:02:14 exactly, not real computer users 12:02:39 I don't see what's so remarkable about CCL having GUI support out of the box. 12:02:47 both "real computer" users, and real "computer users" 12:02:48 The only thing stopping SBCL from being the first Lisp to support GUI development out of the box is the desire to do so. 12:03:02 lichtblau: that's what they say 12:03:07 well there you go 12:03:13 but nobody has gone forward to do it 12:03:22 I thought it was a lack of developer support 12:03:25 lichtblau: well, people don't see that SBCL intentionally dropped it and wonder why others have it while SBCL doesn't 12:03:31 The SBCL side 12:03:32 and a question about cross-platform gui pops up every now and then 12:03:49 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:04:07 Guthur: I guess SBCL wouldn't get where it is now without dropping so much stuff from CMUCL 12:04:13 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:04:19 it happens that among that was GUI support 12:04:32 barcon332 [~barcon332@208.89.210.254] has joined #lisp 12:04:55 lol p_l I'm only noticing now that that is you 12:04:55 *splittist* wonders if abcl supports enough mopery for mcclim... 12:05:06 you mean there was hemlock? 12:05:14 It's not like CCL implemented a Lispy GUI library the way LispWorks and Allegro did, they just use FFI directly. 12:05:28 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:36 stassats: CMUCL has (had?) Motif support included 12:06:22 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:07:09 motif, oh well 12:13:34 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-160-243-60.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:21 lichtblau: if you go down the rabbit hole deep enough, you'll find that lw and acl use ffi for their gui also (: 12:14:44 (but they aren't offering it as an end-user available thing, is probably what you meant) 12:15:11 Guthur [~michael@host86-160-243-60.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:16:01 HG` [~HG@xdslej050.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:18:13 antifuchs: yes, exactly 12:21:02 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:21:03 pjb```` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:35 The question is, does SBCL want to offer a binary installer for Windows with a Hemlock-based GUI in it, not entirely unlike CCL's Hemlock-based GUI? Doing so would be ~2h of work, so it's not a technical question, only a matter of wanting to do it. 12:22:03 lichtblau: why not make an SBCL distro ? 12:22:26 I quite like the fact that SBCL devs concentrate only on the compiler 12:22:44 -!- pjb``` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:24:14 *Xach* races to register quicksbcl.org 12:24:29 fe[nl]ix: I agree with that sentiment. This is basically the bundling discussion we had at SBCL10. 12:24:52 darn 12:25:49 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-108-240.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:26:14 I should have went to SBCL10 too :( 12:26:35 Personally, I don't see what bundling would give anyone on Linux. But on windows, I think that working in cmd.exe is very unattractive from a technical point of view (either the .exe is flagged as a console app or not, and I think it shouldn't be). So the allegro-ish thing of being a windows app and putting the REPL into its own window makes sense to me. 12:27:12 a "distro"makes more sense, IMHO, than making an IDE part of SBCL itself 12:27:29 afaik CCL got an IDE partially due to its history, right? 12:28:36 p_l|backup: from the little I've read on openmcl-devel, the _desire_ for an IDE is rooted in its history, although the new approach is rather different. 12:29:14 Whereas the MCLIDE guy is working on the "real thing". 12:29:40 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:29:54 lichtblau: I also suspect the Mac platform might encourage IDE more than others :D 12:32:07 akamaus [~maus@94.231.115.107] has joined #lisp 12:32:23 more so the history of MCL, which had a pretty excellent IDE 12:37:37 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-160-243-60.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:09 Guthur [~michael@host86-160-243-60.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:40:16 -!- Jubb [Jubb@res55553268.rh.rit.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:42:35 a-s [~user@lixandru-ag.mediasat.ro] has joined #lisp 12:47:25 abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:08 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:14 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:20 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:09 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 12:50:25 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:59 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WAAAAAAAAGH!!] 12:51:04 tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:28 billitch [~billitch@g229051246.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:02 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 12:55:13 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:55:25 *Xach* adds mcclim with surprising ease 12:58:31 TheEnd2012_ [~TheEnd201@cpe-174-100-235-249.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:59:50 rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:00:02 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01:25 WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:53 -!- pjb```` [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:03:58 Xach: so, I give in. How do I try quicklisp? 13:04:09 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-17-206-11.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:04:11 mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has joined #lisp 13:07:10 Is ken tilton on this channel? 13:07:24 I don't think he's been here in years 13:07:32 He once said CLIM is the most obtuse toolkit and I wonder why. 13:08:03 leo2007: that reminds me of what you should not say if a loved one asks you "Do I look fat?": "I've seen fatter." 13:08:16 it's because nobody can tell if he's telling the truth at any given moment. 13:08:55 he was answering someone's question regarding a usable gui for common lisp. 13:09:20 also, he's trapped in a slight conflict of interest scenario with his gorgeous opengl-based toolkit 13:09:25 All that I can say is "thank god for dhtml". 13:09:49 <_3b> so you can use his JS stuff instead? :p 13:10:09 the horror, the horror. 13:10:17 So that most of these stupid UI problems go away and you can get on with doing stuff. 13:10:31 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 13:11:54 (damn, no screenshots of cello available online) 13:12:34 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:13:03 Zhivago: right, they get transformed into security and client-server problems instead (: 13:14:41 santhosh [~santhoshu@27.57.186.51] has joined #lisp 13:15:05 antifuchs: sadly, the more amusing screenshots seem to have disappeared 13:15:17 I particularly liked the inspector set on the side of a cube 13:15:20 sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:20 kenny is somehow amusing, and sometimes partially usable 13:15:38 I'm a big fan of his beachside ranting video 13:15:41 *p_l|backup* got rather disillusioned after trying to compile his stuff 13:16:24 p_l|backup: ramarren keeps a buildable fork of e.g. cells 13:16:52 is cells as a concept actually something he came up with? 13:17:07 it was my first encounter with the idea, but it seems to be reasonably common now 13:17:07 rsynnott: haha, yeah 13:17:35 Zhivago: Only if the human-computer interface is uni-directional. 13:17:55 leo: Um, what? 13:18:23 Zhivago: do your programs have users 13:18:51 leo: What are you gibbering about? Do you know what uni-directional means? 13:19:20 rsynnott: he cites spreadsheets as an implementation of this idea (: 13:19:49 Zhivago: why do you think I don't know what it means? 13:19:56 I emailed him about sbcl/linux build failures for utils-kt yesterday, and part of his response was "Bad news, I stopped caring about portability." 13:21:03 leo: Because if you do understand what it means then you made an incredibly stupid and naive claim. 13:21:47 leo: So, I thought that assuming that you were ignorant was kinder than assuming mental retardation. 13:21:58 Zhivago: by saying that do you have a better claim? 13:22:23 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-160-243-60.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22:34 Guthur [~michael@host86-160-243-60.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:35 leo: Do you claim that dhtml only works for unidirectional communication? 13:22:42 -!- santhosh [~santhoshu@27.57.186.51] has left #lisp 13:23:10 Zhivago: no, that's not what I meant. repl and web browser are two major means for ui. 13:23:25 leo: So, where does this "unidirectional" gibberish come in? 13:23:28 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755a19.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:43 careful, Zhivago will crucify you for the slightest rhetorical liberty 13:23:51 leo: Both the repl and web browser provide bidirectional communication. 13:25:04 Zhivago: I am not disputing that. I am disputing the lack of interest in ui and considering that a major problem. 13:25:22 leo: What lack of interest in ui? 13:25:38 people in common lisp 13:25:46 leo2007: I don't think there is a lack of interest, really 13:25:55 leo: Are you on drugs? 13:26:26 leo: If not, you might need some, since you seem completely incoherent. 13:26:27 Zhivago: have you been particularly provocative? I mean I could ask you just the same question. 13:27:03 leo: So, where does this "uni-directional" bit come in? 13:27:37 *leo2007* is on drugs 13:27:41 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:39 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:29:32 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AA47.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:29:50 leo2007: there are, at least, fairly decent options for making a web-browser-based UI 13:30:28 Zhivago: I mean without either repl or web browser, lisp programs interface go this way: developer -> computer -> user 13:30:39 What? 13:30:47 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AA47.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:50 and non-web-browser-based GUIs are doable; if you want all three major platforms (Windows, MacOS, X11/Unix-alike) then your options are a little limited, but really, in which language are they _not_? 13:30:58 rsynnott: I think that's the best option. 13:31:00 -!- abugosh [~Adium@207-172-111-88.c3-0.tlg-ubr4.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:31:29 So, by unidirectional you mean "developers develop stuff for users to use"? 13:31:30 rsynnott: i mean the web browser. 13:31:51 Zhivago: for users to see the output of the program. 13:32:10 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:25 G'morning all. 13:32:28 palter [~palter@166.137.136.150] has joined #lisp 13:33:57 -!- badipod [~badipod@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPod touch - http://colloquy.mobi] 13:34:26 hi nyef 13:34:34 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p4ae269.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:34:56 rsynnott: C++! Qt is nice! :) 13:34:59 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:35:43 Xach: you misspelled my name as O'Tool on your page 13:35:45 it's O'Toole :) 13:35:47 oh gosh, sorry 13:35:49 that is awful 13:36:10 *Xach* has a frequently-forgotten E in his last name 13:36:30 Zhivago: anyway, I was reading some discussions regarding problems in common lisp http://ilc2009.scheming.org/forum/1 and my feeling is most lisp experts do see the ui a problem. 13:36:36 ... "Beanee"? 13:36:40 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-137-141.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:52 aw [~aw@147.81-166-214.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:55 -!- aw [~aw@147.81-166-214.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:37:17 at least he didn't call you "David Objdump" 13:37:27 aw [~aw@147.81-166-214.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:27 hefner: yeah; Qt is probably the closest to an acceptable toolkit which covers the big three 13:38:09 sadly, it had an awful license situation until recently, which probably retarded non-C++ support 13:38:14 too bad it's C++ 13:40:00 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-102-44.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:44 hefner: that is awful 13:41:02 and of course interfacing with C++ from anything else is a pain 13:41:08 s/ful/esome/ 13:41:45 -!- aw [~aw@147.81-166-214.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:41:47 good thing you didn't forget the frequently-forgotten e in that (: 13:42:15 rsynnott: when you said there's decent options for building ui on a web browser, what are those options you have in mind? 13:42:23 I'm very used to people mis-spelling my name; it's incorrect on my bank account :) 13:42:29 -!- tayloj [~tayloj@cpe-67-248-22-159.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:42:31 aw [~aw@147.81-166-214.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:07 leo2007: take a lisp webserver. Design your interface, probably as a javascript application. Make asynchronous calls to cl backend 13:43:10 Xach: BEEEANE 13:43:15 Jubb [Jubb@res55553268.rh.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:43:18 or alternatively write a more conventional webapp 13:43:48 Or compile your program to html and javascript, or ... 13:43:54 rsynnott: No money for you! My driver's license used to have my first/last name reversed. I almost couldn't vote because of that. 13:44:27 But that doesn't really matter -- the point is that it's actually a standard, usable, and fairly abstract ui system. 13:44:55 And it's pretty well language neutral. 13:45:15 -!- palter [palter@clozure-E22EB9B6.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 13:45:40 lusory [~bart@bb119-74-209-160.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:45:52 Has anyone actually done that with Lisp? 13:46:38 I had the perverse idea in the shower this morning to make a javascript-like syntax with a 1-to-1 mapping with common lisp forms 13:47:22 C has a sexp representation, why not make CL with a C representation 13:47:23 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 13:47:24 rtoym: Done what? 13:47:46 dlowe: there is parenscript. 13:47:51 Zhivago: Make a lisp ui using a browser as the ui. 13:48:19 There are a couple, at least. 13:48:24 leo2007: right. that's the precise opposite of what I'm proposing 13:48:33 <_3b> dlowe: http://alessiostalla.altervista.org/software/c-like-lisp/cll.lisp ? 13:48:46 One of the cutest is a lisp implemented in flash, which runs entirely in the browser. 13:48:53 dlowe: M-expressions again? 13:48:56 _3b: damn! scooped! 13:49:51 hey. anyone know about using lisp for .... dramatic timelines, stories, plots, events ? 13:50:08 nyef: was thinking of something a little more complete. assignment would be converted to a setf form 13:50:33 dto: ala talespin? 13:50:43 _3b: actually I was thinking of something a little more complete than that, too 13:50:45 CL with a C syntax, a.k.a. Javascript 13:50:57 Xach: yeah, I know about ramarren. It was the first time I managed to compile Cells :D 13:51:29 rtoym: In any case, I'm doing that -- by compiling to javascript and running in the browser, although I'm not sure that the language is lisp. 13:51:35 *p_l|backup* would still prefer non-web UI, though 13:51:52 -!- eldragon_ [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 13:53:21 Zhivago: Neat. 13:53:51 *frodef* would not want to use a javascript with a lisp syntax. 13:53:52 rtoym: surprisingly, the bank thing has never been a problem 13:53:58 rtoym: It will be neater when I can send live objects between browsers and servers. :) 13:54:18 i'm doing that, with elephant to have persistence 13:54:18 Hmm, how portable are UTF-8 encoded unicode strings in CL? Is there anything I can do to make them work reliably, or do I need to avoid using them in my source code alltogether? 13:54:32 Zhivago: that's an interesting definition of 'cutest' :) 13:54:34 persistent objects are mapped to URN 13:54:52 morning 13:54:55 hi slyrus 13:55:46 delysid: utf-8 encoded strings are pretty safe -- understanding them in terms of code-points is less so. 13:56:02 delYsid: utf-8 ought to work everywhere. 13:56:34 hmm, it worked on abcl with emacs, but once I sent the code to someone with Lispbox on Windows, it fails for him... 13:56:38 -!- palter [palter@clozure-E22EB9B6.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 13:56:45 fe[nl]ix: What did you want to be able to do with errors on external formats? 13:57:30 Zhivago: what's talespin 13:57:58 delYsid: Because emacs mangled the code when saving to a file or because the user didn't compile/load the code using an external format of utf8? 13:58:07 dto: A lisp program for writing stories about actors. 13:58:09 -!- palter [~palter@166.137.136.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:58:36 http://norvig.com/ltd/test/micro-tale-spin.lisp 13:58:37 rtoym: probably the second... 13:58:37 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 13:58:55 Ah, my source-level filesystem works. :) 14:00:23 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 14:01:03 tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:03 rtoym: I my want to specify a custom replacement character 14:02:01 rtoym: I'd also like to know the offset where the error occured, and how many octets were consumed before encountering the error 14:02:11 Is there some kind of magic cookie that I can put into the source to force the correct external format during loading? 14:02:29 dlowe, Zhivago, wow 14:02:35 rtoym: e.g. invalid value of the third octet in a 4-octet UTF8 encoding 14:02:53 fe[nl]ix: Ok. A custom replacement is no problem, if a bit unwieldy. I should change so it's easier to specify. 14:02:55 dto: the stories it produces are painfully stupid :/ 14:03:00 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:03:44 Well, they at least make sense. 14:03:53 There are some more advanced systems around. 14:04:03 this actually looks interesting. 14:04:12 fe[nl]ix: Still working on the interface, but currently you'll be given a string, the offending octet/codepoint, the index of the octet, and a function for putting back some characters. 14:04:15 i have a very simple directed acyclic graph system right now 14:04:26 and i'm looking up some interactive fiction non-lisp-specific articles 14:04:30 (That's for decoding errors. Encoding errors will be different.) 14:04:47 Meta-Aqua looked quite interesting, but I didn't get it to run. 14:05:14 anyone know how to get paredit working properly on macos terminal windows? C-left-arrow and C-right-arrow don't work. 14:06:16 Does C-left-arrow invoke spaces? 14:06:39 dunno. emacs just says "M-[ 5 d is undefined" 14:07:33 revel0_ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:07:33 -!- revel0_ is now known as revel0 14:07:42 Oh, ok. My Spaces use C-left-arrow to switch between spaces. 14:08:09 palter [~palter@166.137.136.150] has joined #lisp 14:08:13 -!- aw [~aw@147.81-166-214.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 14:08:26 oh, that kind of spaces... no. 14:08:44 aw [~aw@147.81-166-214.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:58 slyrus: emacs can translate those, there was a xterm-xtras.el (not sure about the name) that does something similar, look there for inspiration. 14:09:12 -!- aw [~aw@147.81-166-214.customer.lyse.net] has left #lisp 14:09:25 ok, thanks 14:10:44 -!- Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:11:09 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:12:45 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@ppp-71-139-27-46.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:12:59 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:14:15 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:16:29 Good afternoon! 14:16:32 hi spiaggia 14:16:36 Hello spiaggia. 14:16:45 stassats: Could you make C-u ,reload-system recompile the system with max debugs? 14:17:20 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-233-221.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:45 i'll try 14:18:00 Also I'm wondering why ,reload-system did not just recompile the whole of my system 14:18:07 Do I misremember what it's supposed to do? 14:18:37 I'm on somewhat latest sbcl, definitively on asdf2 14:18:55 i don't remember myself what it's doing 14:19:19 I think it's supposed to recompile the system without recursiveness of :force t 14:19:34 i see now, some terrible hacks, maybe it's not working on asdf2 14:19:57 tcr: that i know, i meant how it achieves that 14:21:04 I didn't found it that hacky; seems like asdf2 did really change quite a bit? 14:21:09 s/found/find/ 14:22:24 Finally my first really public project: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-api/ 14:22:46 I believe there were changes in asdf2 that were supposed to make :force usable 14:23:29 I submitted a bug report but I don't think asdf2 fixed that one yet 14:23:47 how do I add the package on cliki ? 14:24:05 minion: asdf-install? 14:24:06 asdf-install: asdf-install is a development application for downloading and installing lisp packages. http://www.cliki.net/asdf-install 14:24:30 if you are a fan of asdf-install 14:24:36 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-109-120.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:24:38 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:25:21 kiuma: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-api/api.shtml#*api-css*_vars looks off (: 14:25:45 I know :) 14:26:32 but I don't really know if it's the case to "
" var and const values
14:26:42 <_3b> page is a bit wide there too
14:26:56  no 1024 ?
14:27:10  should I try 800px
14:27:37  kiuma: why not :exclude-fun :exclude-class etc
14:28:00  suggestions are well accepted :)
14:28:21  xristos, yours seem better naming
14:28:22 *_3b* would rather not resize the window just because the page decorations are too wide
14:28:23 -!- revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
14:28:28  also since most people capitalize arguments in docstrings you could try presenting them in a better way
14:28:54  and i'd also go as far as hyperlinking to things like `with-output-to-string'
14:29:03 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp
14:29:20  xristos, to CLHS ?
14:29:33  to functions/methods in the same package
14:29:45  ahh k
14:29:52 revel0__ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp
14:30:05  from a quick look looks like :force is more sane now, i'll try it
14:30:19  putting things inside `' is elisp documentation notation but i also use it for cl
14:30:41  and i hacked documentation-template to do hyperlinks and build an index
14:31:08  me too
14:31:22 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp
14:31:34  sounds like you'd really enjoy my homebrewn stuff
14:32:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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14:35:52  quick question: is there anywhere I can view the source for common lisp's built-in functions?
14:36:00 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
14:36:13  like car, cdr, nthcdr
14:36:31  xristos, what do you mean with better way "since most people capitalize arguments in docstrings.."
14:36:41  kiuma: http://www.suspicious.org/~night/plokami
14:37:03  when i refer to anything that is documented from inside a docstring, there is a hyperlink
14:37:43  Jubb: M-. in slime might show you.
14:37:54 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp
14:38:04  Jubb: though it might not always show you what you want.
14:39:05  ok, thanks xach
14:39:13 revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp
14:40:03  xristos, ok but when I encounter FOO in docstring, should I link to the variable or to the functions definition
14:40:07  i like (defun car (cons) (car cons))
14:40:39  kiuma: if it is just FOO it is probably an argument so you don't link anywhere
14:41:03  if it is `foo' then you should find out what it is and link to it
14:41:13  xristos, it was an example :~
14:41:17  stassats: I agree, it's great XD
14:42:19  xristos, I might have (defun foo () ...) and (defclass foo () ...) and so on
14:42:21 -!- Athas`` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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14:44:16  kiuma: absent extra metadata in the docstring, choose one (i'd choose) the function and document the behavior
14:44:30  i don't document classes anyway
14:44:40  but maybe thats not a good idea
14:45:47  ideally the docstring should not refer to a class inside `'
14:46:47  I'll add some tagging parse facility in docstring (I want to keep cl-api very basic, and not to let it take the control)
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14:52:19  xristos, anyway one can easily create a parser for the html maybe using cl-xml
14:52:40  the transform it as he likes
14:52:41  there's already closure-html
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14:53:18  p_l|backup, yes better :)
14:53:19  and scraping it with cxml-stp is pleasure (now if only someone added CSS selector path interface...)
14:54:37  well now I have to add cl-api to cliki , I'm a bit scared :)
14:55:10  cl-api?
14:55:18  yes, why not
14:55:35  also, Cliki needs to be rewritten. From scratch, apparently...
14:55:47  then it will be clonsigna turn
14:56:07  CLiki could be incrementally rewritten, to some benefit, if necessary.
14:56:31  I think I need to get up from cot and actually start writing...
14:56:35  Really, there are only a few really brain-damaged bits in it.
14:58:05  nyef: I didn't say it's braindamaged. But severely bitrotten in places
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14:58:22  dan described much of the cliki architecture in a linux user & developer article a while ago
14:58:30  it seemed sound at the time
14:58:36  You didn't see how page updates are handled, then?
14:58:50  but now, a lot of the things that were NIHed could be much more easily handled by external bits
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15:02:50  what it severely lacks from my experience, is templates (think stuff like the ones in Mediawiki that power Wikipedia's infoboxes) and page deletion. Better UI would also help, though the one in ucliki-powered aclwiki is already much better
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15:14:23  file-based storage could stay, though
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15:25:03  well, adding cl-api to cliki wa not so hard :)
15:25:21  tomorrow will be the clonsigna turn :)
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15:39:03  kiuma: have you seen clod
15:39:04  ?
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15:39:35  Hi all. Is there a library where I can use mod_lisp to server .lisp files without the need to define a dispatch table?
15:39:51  Yes I think I had
15:40:13  p_l|backup, I wanted to create something very easy
15:40:33  kiuma: then, have you looked at Edi Weitz's one? It looks similar :)
15:40:52  Lis: mod_lisp is a variant of the fcgi theme (and obsolete to boot)
15:41:08  no, it's a lispdoc variant :)
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15:41:35  there were some LSP swystems
15:41:50  *systems
15:41:54  p_l|backup Ok, so you mean the best approach to just use the uploaded lisp files with apache is by using CGI?
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15:42:14  p_l|backup If I understood you, did I?
15:42:30  Lis: why do you want to do things this way?
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15:43:36  Lis: the best way is to write a sort of macro (let's call it DEFPAGE) which names the page and path, which would create a lambda (with the &body parameter as code) that gets executed on every access and make the macro hook said lambda to a Hunchentoot dispatcher, then use mod_proxy to connect the lisp server this way
15:43:38 -!- jcw_ [~jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit]
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15:44:03  see: claw :)
15:44:21  I'm a bit scared when I'll have to write documentation :)
15:44:38  rsynnott Becouse I personally like this approach the most, for my needs. I do not want another webserver running (since I can not use any other ports than 80) so I do not like the mod_proxy implementations. I want to have the smalles possible dependencies on external packages and I want my code to be mostly usable in many lisp distributions
15:45:08  mod_proxy would work
15:45:24 -!- jcw_ [~jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit]
15:45:28  (mod_lisp is just another proxier, but using a funny format
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15:45:39  hunchentoot works in most impls
15:45:44  Lis: mod_proxy connects on localhost, so you don't need to worry about port 80
15:46:01 -!- jcw_ [~jcw@madder.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit]
15:46:05  or you can just run hunchentoot without anything in between
15:46:33  (even if ht has its own deps)
15:47:42  Personally so far I used HTTP redirect, but if you want to keep only port 80 opened and served by apache, have hunchentoot on some local port and use mod_proxy to talk to it (without any visibility outside). It's kinda similar to what ruby webapps do (outside passenger, though I believe most bigger ruby apps use balancing proxy in front)
15:48:24  And hunchentoot does allow me to just put a .lisp file into a directory and display it's output?
15:48:31  passenger is just a very fancy fastchi :)
15:48:39  *fastcgi
15:49:15  Lis: it can, but that's not the way it's supposed to be used
15:49:47  Lis: you have a more direct programmatic control with hunchentoot.
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15:49:59  Hm.
15:50:35  Lis: you're trying to carry over a model from PHP or something?
15:50:49  Lis: to do what you want you need to go CGI, since its CGI model you're pursuing
15:51:15  PHP closely follows CGI model, just got speeded up by creation of mod_php and fastcgi version
15:51:27  Lis: the lisp runtime is more dynamic than what you're used to, just putting files somewhere and have them magically load into your stack like passenger does with the file descriptor stuff is very hackish in comparison.
15:51:45  you can attach to a running hunchentoot at runtime and simply act on it directly.
15:51:49  (and even in those it still follows CGI model with possible caching of code by some accelerators)
15:51:53  it's a different paradigm
15:52:10  That would have been my next question. If I put a new file into a directory I need to reload the server don't i?
15:52:14  no
15:52:24  you sound confused
15:52:24  But that's only possible with hunchentoot?
15:52:24  you never need to reload or restart hunchentoot, really.
15:53:07  But I do need to restart the modlisp processes?
15:53:18  forget about mod_lisp
15:53:23  kk
15:53:23  there will be no modlisp
15:53:44  No I mean't if I use modlisp instead of hunchentoot
15:53:49  Lis: perhaps you should read a hunchentoot tutorial before you ask questions about it
15:53:49 *hefner* likes the CGI model
15:53:55  you either proxy with crapache or some other web server or reverse proxy to hunchentoot or bind hunchentoot to port 80 directly.
15:54:36  binding to port 80 directly may be vaguely awkward, though
15:54:42  Lis: like http://www.weitz.de/hunchentoot/#start
15:54:54  hunchentoot has an option to give up root privileges when started, but it does not necessarily work on all impls :)
15:55:05  right, that's a consideration.
15:55:09  adeht: I installed tbnl hunchentoot modlisp I read all of their pages but I did not found my questions there
15:55:10  but the functionality exists.
15:55:13  thats why I ask here
15:55:32  Lis: did you do any of the hunchentoot tutorials?
15:55:33  Lis: that indicates that you didn't understand what you've read
15:55:57  if i wanted hunchentoot on 80, i'd redirect through iptables or something
15:56:12  Lis: tbnl is just an old version of hunchentoot
15:56:18  bougyman I do not want to spend 2 weeks on reading some stuff just to know afterwards it was the wrong decition
15:56:35  Lis: the CGI model is probably not the way to go, unless you have a good reason to go with it
15:56:51  decision
15:57:15  Lis: 2 weeks?..
15:57:21  Ok. So I use hunchentoot. Seems it does support all what I need
15:57:25  Thank you.
15:58:07  is there something extant for hacking a CGI or PHP-esque model as a hunchentoot dispatcher, or is that an outstanding SMOP?
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15:59:50  hola
15:59:52  Um, by CGI model you mean spawning a process to handle it?
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16:00:00 *nyef* tries to remember how to do a git pull from his G5 to his main working repository.
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16:03:57 *Xach* tries to write up short descriptions for every project, goes crosseyed writing "utility collection" so many times
16:05:00  Zhivago: CGI model - a "process" gets started for every request (whether it's an actual process or something ran by container like mod_php is another thing) then it quits, releasing all resources
16:05:02  Zhivago: more like PHP - the part I'm interested in is having a source code to handlers in individual files, with a clear mapping between paths in the file system and URIs on the server
16:05:26  But the tutorial shows that I have a shell access to do a simple blog? http://roeim.net/vetle/docs/cl-webapp-intro/part-1/
16:05:42  Lis: I wouldn't use PHP without shell access too
16:05:48 -!- benny [~user@i577A1289.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
16:05:50  aah come on
16:05:53  Lis: for hunchentoot, yes, basically
16:06:01  fail
16:06:03  epic fail
16:06:06  I'm not sure this is a particularly good or useful idea, but it would be more convenient to edit, and the invisible, hard to inspect accumulation of state inside a lisp process, and having to work with SLIME attached, is sometimes unsettling
16:06:17  theoretically I suppose you could upload a core to run as a CGI
16:06:22  but you probably don't want to do that
16:06:38  hefner: that's the bit I like most about hunchentoot :P
16:07:00 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
16:07:51  Lis: I consider hosting without shell access an epic fail that leads to crazy shit that unfortunately is also very bad as well (I don't mind batshit insane stuff that let's me do untold things to runtime, I mind when crazy but stupid stuff is required to get anything done)
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16:08:30  Lis: and that tutorial is outdated
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16:10:43  rsynnott: I like it for the one thing I've ever used Hunchentoot for, bolting a web UI onto an existing application, but it seems opaque and hard to manage
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16:16:28  hefner: it's easy to write a dispatcher that evaluates forms in separate files.. but imo it's a rather poor approach
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16:18:28  I'm sure it's easy, I'm asking if anyone has already done it (and not in the crappiest imaginable, "(eval (read (with-open-file ...)))" fashion, but with some structure to the files and intelligent recompilation)
16:18:54 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.93.5.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:19:29  that's (load "...")
16:19:59  meh
16:20:21 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:20:41  That's why I suggested defpage macro - it could be made to choose path based on file, and add a bit of recompilation-needed check
16:21:11 *Xach* wonders if anything's especially wrong with http://xach.com/tmp/descriptions.txt
16:21:23 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:21:39 *Xach* stopped adding "library" at some point 
16:22:03  p_l|backup: sorry, I missed that.
16:22:28  I wrote some route compiler thingy a while ago.. should beat the crap out of practically any web framework I've seen (they all seem to use multiple regex matches to route, except mongrel2 which interprets some tree structure)
16:22:44  hefner: basically a macro that creates a handler and attaches the &body as a lambda to it
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16:24:23  Xach: Common Lisp Interface Manager Graphical User Interface doesn't sound good
16:24:56  (they also use regex capture to handle variable bindings.. lame.)
16:25:16  Xach: mixalot is a library for playing audio, shuffletron is the music player
16:25:25  Xach: you could probably s/library// as long as you check whether you need to pluralize (e.g. 'foo stream library' -> 'foo streams')
16:25:49  s://://g: or something
16:26:13  adeht: a route compiler? gimme! :D
16:26:49  p_l: heh.. it's just a simplistic hack atm
16:27:03 x-ip [~x-ip@host101.200-82-110.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp
16:27:12  do you like the clonsigna logo ?
16:27:14  http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=1104
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16:28:21  kiuma: it bothers me that the parens have different semantic values
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16:28:52  p_l: it needs work to be functional, and can surely be optimized further..
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16:29:26  adeht: I was thinking of making a one that would create a compiled lambda
16:29:30  p_l: basically I didn't write it out of need for something
16:29:37  Xach: retrospectiff does both reading and writing of tiff files, fwiw
16:29:37  p_l: yep.. lemme paste
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16:30:27  splittist, what do you mean ?
16:31:18  p_l: http://paste.lisp.org/display/112084 and http://paste.lisp.org/display/111701 for example
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16:32:04  kiuma: the opening/left paren is a 'C'; the closing/right paren is just a picture (unless it's clonsignad)
16:32:19  p_l: like I said, very hacky
16:32:22  adeht: http://code.google.com/p/cl-routes/ ?
16:32:56  splittist, it was only a trick :)
16:33:01 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:33:39  ((clonsigna) is not goodlooking
16:33:52  fe[nl]ix: looks like an interpreter to me
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16:34:25  kiuma: IANJI, of course.
16:34:51  i don't think there should be a logo at all
16:35:19  ehhhh ???
16:35:29  meanwhile, I plan on switching my cl-tc library to KyotoCabinet and writing that Lispy api, finally]
16:36:43 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
16:36:50  ok, splittist heheh
16:37:01  kiuma: I Am Not Jony Ive
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16:37:27  stassats: if you don't have a logo, how do you make the favico? (:
16:37:50  still obscure
16:38:45  ok ok got it :)
16:39:15  gotta go home
16:39:17  ciao
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16:44:31  slyrus: ok, thanks
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16:52:24  splittist: though the resemblance is uncanny
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17:22:04  How do you quit slime inside emacs ?. (quit) does not work. It gives evaluation-aborted message
17:22:12 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!]
17:22:32  Connected to a remote slime?
17:22:37  Try ,disconnect
17:22:59  no
17:23:14  wait, (quit)?
17:23:19  try ,quit
17:23:34  variable quit is unbound
17:23:50  comma is important.
17:23:50  The comma is essential
17:23:58  oh
17:24:15  works
17:24:18  thanks
17:24:56  My first day with lisp, sbcl and emacs
17:25:03  ugh.
17:25:09  i'm hating asdf-install today.
17:25:24  i have uffi installed at the system level, so clsql's uffi-compat is failing miserably.
17:25:28  Get rid of it. Stop the hatred.
17:25:38  tcr: well then i'm worse off.
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17:25:45  when I got into cl i took the asdf route.
17:25:50 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp
17:25:59  i'm not familiar with mksystem or any of the other methods, other than just loading .lisp files.
17:26:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-050.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
17:26:19  asdf-install is not the same thing as asdf.
17:28:18 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
17:29:05  clsql will fail horribly with asdf-install
17:29:29  It was trying build everything which caused issues
17:29:37  I can't remember the exact details
17:29:42  Argh. It's frustrating to have a half-baked, partially working, unreleased bit of software that solves this problem.
17:30:00  (so people could use it instead of the half-baked, partially working, released software)
17:30:02  clbuild works ok
17:30:07  bougyman:  Seems like you're bitten by two unfortune choices. I don't think neither asdf-install nor clsql are particularly recommended nowadays
17:30:20  clsql is actively maintained and works pretty ok
17:30:29  tcr: not really using clsql, it's just needed by elephant
17:30:29  it is not super but not super-awful either
17:30:37  i plan on using postmodern with it.
17:30:38  bougyman: ouch, strike 3!
17:30:46  Xach: elephant is badness?
17:30:54  no, not really.
17:30:54  i'm just going through the web4r tutorial
17:31:01  http://web4r.org/en/tutorial6
17:31:05  trying to run that customer demo.
17:31:18  finally got all the bdb requirements in, not i'm fighting uffi-compat.
17:31:22  er now I am.
17:31:41  i guess I uninstall my system version and move along.
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17:31:53  thought that I installed uffi originally for hunchentoot, but we'll see.
17:32:17  bougyman: one problem with asdf-install is this: when you download a project and unpack it, asdf-install tries to compile and load *every* asd file it finds, even if you only want a particular one.
17:32:30  yeah i've noticed.
17:32:39  what's a better road to start traveling?
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17:32:56  bougyman: you might fare better with clbuild
17:33:03  bougyman: or, you could just download files manually.
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17:34:06  how bout I follow the install docs instead? i never did try http://web4r.org/en/install
17:34:09 *bougyman* tries
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17:35:29  that is just crazy enough to work
17:35:57  Xach: what will tmp/descriptions.txt do?
17:36:08  clbuild definitely works for clsql, but you might wont to go that route
17:36:15  mightn't*
17:36:19  want*
17:36:34  mon_key: the data in it will be used to help people get an idea of what a project is for.
17:37:47  Xach: I wrote the initial bits for hash-table completing-read last night using index/systems.txt
17:39:14  I'm writing the Emacs loadtime check now. It verifys that the current slime is ql and then loads the hashtable of ql systems when Emacs loads slime.el[c]
17:40:03  mon_key: I hope you don't mind if your work is invalidated by drastic changes to the metadata structure.
17:40:19  of index/systems.txt?
17:40:29  Of everything.
17:40:46 mhd [~mhd@pool-98-118-119-86.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
17:41:04  :) I'm trying to be modular w/re paths/fnames ... Data is different though I guess.
17:41:52  I was able to verify last night that everything worked as expected with ~3 false slime-*-cvs subdirs
17:42:07  verifying on a second machine in another hour or so.
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17:44:58  Xach: In short i don't mind at all. But, FWIW it was only after getting these routines configured Emacs side that I was able to transition/incorporate ql to my environments so it is worthwhile if only for that :). Though I imagine most ql adopters will need/want a way to do same.
17:45:28 -!- splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit []
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17:46:21  mon_key: Ok. I don't want to create unfounded feelings of stability in the structure or capability of quicklisp.
17:47:24  Its not ql (which BTW is working fine) but where slime/Emacs is concerned I don't see how certain kinds of bootstrapping/handshaking can be avoided.
17:49:30  E.g unless swank is in core slime can't initially find ql unless she can find herself in the ql path.
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17:53:09  Guthur: how would you recommend it be built?
17:53:23 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp
17:53:38  clbuild works well, but manually otherwise
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17:54:28  I may have got it to work with some editing through asdf-install, quite remember exactly, all I remember is that it was very painful
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17:55:14  I'm surprised by (cl-fad:file-exists-p "/tmp") to return true
17:55:22  It was to do with asdf-install trying to build all the contained .asd which is going to cause issues
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18:02:11  I don't suppose there's some simple CL code kicking around out there for filesystem notifications on the mac (whatever Apple's alternative to inotify would be)
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18:05:35  Hmm.  Disappointingly, FSEvents is sufficiently different from inotify that I don't see how implement the same API in iolib using those.
18:06:06  on windows ?
18:08:00  does iolib support inotify?
18:08:09  fe[nl]ix: no, Mac.  Apparently it's on a directory-level granularity.
18:08:22  You know what'd be neat? A mid-range x86oid system on a PCI card, for use in non-x86 hosts.
18:08:42  hefner: not yet
18:08:50 Hun [~hun@95-89-68-85-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp
18:08:53 *lichtblau* is planning on moving his allegro-based inotify code into iolib RSN
18:09:01  nyef: there were multiple ones made
18:09:06  Sun had some
18:09:08  nyef: I remember using win95 on such a thing, inside a PPC mac, sometime around 1998 :)
18:09:36  Yeah, I know they made such things back when, but I'm thinking a more -modern- mid-range.
18:09:58 -!- galaxywatcher [~galaxywat@ppp-58-8-54-84.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: galaxywatcher]
18:10:05  the one from Sun was i686, definitely
18:10:08  Oh, perhaps kqueue is the better solution on MacOS.
18:10:24  (Hell, they used to make 386 or 486 boards for the old Macs back in the 68k days.)
18:12:20 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp
18:12:36 *p_l|backup* used a PC that was upgraded with a PC-on-ISA cared
18:12:58  *card
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18:13:59 *Guthur* votes for more ARM support in SBCL
18:14:17  then use something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle_Board
18:14:45  Guthur: do you vote with money?
18:14:47  Guthur: Vote with your money, pay me to work on it! :-D
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18:16:29  hehe, well...
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18:19:24  lichtblau: AFAIK kevent should support both files and directories
18:21:29  nyef: I'll probably start working on it some time soon. I have a working gcc on the ipad!
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18:27:50  pkhuong: Fair enough.
18:28:33  do you have the assembler mostly working?
18:28:46  bah, subsidized canadians stealing food off your table? what do they think it is, their birthday?
18:29:17  I don't know how working the assembler is, but it doesn't complain while building.
18:29:59  I sortof left off at trying to get some of the major VOPs involved in IR2-conversion at least dummied up if not properly implemented.
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18:33:09  Is anyone seriously reviewing the win32 threads patch, btw? What are the feelings on the radically different runtime?
18:33:10 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082CEAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
18:33:59  I... haven't actually taken a look at it yet.
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18:35:34  Think I'll try to port the safepoint stuff to other, better loved, platforms.
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18:39:27  I'm getting the impression that compare-and-swap and atomic-{incf,decf} both want to be full memory barriers.
18:40:03  probably... With %-prefixed barrier-free versions?
18:40:13  No.
18:40:23  There -are- no barrier-free version on x86oids.
18:40:36  ... is? versions? Something like that.
18:40:53  right... but other platforms.
18:41:37  Mmm... Dunno.
18:42:20  we definitely use them as implicit barriers, but ISTR some algorithms with multiple atomic operations followed by a single barrier.
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18:52:34  hi
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19:32:31  Xach: whaddya know, the install doc got me where I need to be (mostly)
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19:33:04  still need to dig in to using postgres with elephant, though.  is PCL still the recommended text for building lisp chops?
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19:38:09  bougyman: PCL and PAIP seem to be the popular two here. PCL in particular being good for starting ouy.
19:38:10  *out.
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19:52:09  Oh, lovely. Atomic-incf and atomic-decf aren't.
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19:54:19  q/win 5
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20:03:39  google + ita = <3
20:03:44 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp
20:03:59  meh, who'd want to work for google?
20:04:12  dlowe: Does this mean they've relaxed their anti-Lisp stance?
20:04:23  sellout: that remains to be seen, eh?
20:04:43  I doubt they want to kill the goose that's laying golden eggs
20:05:10  it's official now, though
20:05:18  dlowe: I agree, but it wouldn't be the first time (eg, MS and the Kin)
20:05:44  or, more relevantly, Sony and GOAL
20:05:50  wait, it's official as in agreed or official as in someone has said "no comment"?
20:06:01  agreed and official
20:06:02  Krystof: The former.
20:06:26  announced as of ~20 minutes ago.
20:06:27  http://www.itasoftware.com/pdf/PR1.7.10_Google_and_ITA_Software_Sign_Acquisition_Agreement.pdf
20:06:54 Intensity [gnjnSDjgDl@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp
20:07:14  google fell for the "oh, it runs on python" line
20:07:28  slyrus: Hah!
20:07:34  heh
20:08:25  I hope you ITA guys are getting something out of this
20:08:39  other than a free Google t-shirt
20:09:12  minion: chant
20:09:13  MORE RELEVANTLY
20:09:27  minion: chant
20:09:27  MORE EXITS
20:09:47  first woot, now this :(
20:10:09  wow, documentation on cl-event is nonexistent.
20:10:16 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-108-240.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp
20:10:20  well, congratulations to all those holding ITA stock
20:10:22  does that mean no one uses it or it's so easy it needs no docs?
20:10:26  Xach: I think w00t will be fine  Amazon is pretty good about not touching acquisitions.
20:10:38  Krystof: Heh :)
20:10:46  30% haircut to rumour price, though
20:10:49 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp
20:10:49  bougyman: i don't think i've ever heard of that. can you tell me more about it?
20:10:55 *Krystof* hopes that jsnell is now doubly rich
20:10:56  Xach: about cl-event?
20:10:57  google isn't helping me
20:10:59  bougyman: yes.
20:11:03  it's a wrapper to use libevent.
20:11:17  which is what I use for asynchronous I/O in other languages.
20:11:28  http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~tox/site/cl-event.php4
20:11:30 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
20:12:19  bougyman: how did you find it?
20:12:23  cliki
20:12:30  http://www.cliki.net/cl-event
20:12:31  there
20:12:48  bougyman: I don't think many people use it.
20:12:53 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
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20:13:23  sure hasn't been updated in a very long time.
20:14:42  i'm looking for that or perhaps an actor implementation of async i/o.
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20:17:30  so, can we now say that google uses Common Lisp?
20:18:03  I wouldn't until google actually pays
20:18:31  pays or says?
20:19:16  Just because a deal is agreed to doesn't mean it has happened.
20:19:43  Between shareholder approval and government veto, a lot of things can happen before a deal is complete.
20:19:55  Until then, nothing is changed for sure.
20:20:17  Fare: this one's a done deal. it's too small for goog's shareholders to care
20:20:28  Is Woot implemented in Lisp?
20:20:33 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:20:39  ITA's shareholders are already (contractually) on board undoubtedly
20:20:39  reb: No, why?
20:20:42  BTW, I seem to be loosing signals monitoring SIGCHLD with signalfd in XCVB. Sigh.
20:20:54  reb: As far as I know.
20:21:01  Just curious, given Xach's earlier lament.
20:21:29  slyrus, remains the shareholders on the other party, and the washington nasties.
20:21:39  I'm eager to integrate Lisp compilation into Google's build system.
20:21:53  Fare: you mean you only get some sigchlds?
20:22:06  yup
20:22:13  I get some, but not all :( :(
20:22:17  Fare: yes, of course. the kernel only queues one at a time for you
20:22:26  and I do waitpid until I get 0 or -1
20:22:37  each time I get one.
20:22:41  oh...
20:22:45  and you're still missing some?
20:22:52  yup
20:22:58  did you make sure to block it in all threads?
20:23:08  try installing a SIGCHLD handler and see if it gets called ever
20:23:12  I'm pretty sure I have only one thread
20:23:18  I used sigprocmask to block
20:23:31  I'll try that. Sigh.
20:23:39  sigprocmask is per-thread.
20:23:42  (on linux)
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20:24:55  kernel 2.6.30 if that means anything
20:25:10  (have signalfd bugs been reported against that?)
20:25:28  not to my knowlege
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20:27:07  maybe I am doing something wrong...
20:27:56  installing a signal handler... sigh.
20:27:57  I wonder if ITA's Lisp-based infrastructure is going to go the way of the Yahoo! store....
20:29:02  sykopomp: I thought it might too, but the code is quite different in quality and cost of porting I believe
20:29:11 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:29:12  I wonder if ITA's lisp hackers will be amply rewarded
20:29:15  can I call printf in a signal handler?
20:29:28 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp
20:29:48  Krystof: they will be rewarded by having the privilege to turn QPX into JPX!
20:29:50  Krystof, amply, I dunno, but those of us who have stock options will have an easier time exercising them.
20:29:53  Fare: infamously bad idea
20:30:06  fprintf ?
20:30:19  I mean, sprintf followed by write?
20:30:29  make that snprintf
20:30:43  Fare: I recall discussion in Stevens
20:31:05  printf and fprintf probably are wrong because of buffering.
20:32:18  Fare: man 7 signal
20:32:22  write(2) is async-signal safe.
20:33:01  sykopomp: surely not with jsnell running the QPX integration project!
20:33:17 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-233-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]
20:33:19  yeah, now jsnell can work for ITA again. :)
20:33:25  bonus!
20:33:55  ITA's lisp software is large and full of business logic gleaned over the last 15 years from ill-defined specifications. Rewriting it from scratch would be pretty much insane. If you really wanted to put your mind to it, you could do some incremental porting over time, of course.
20:34:14  fe[nl]ix, I'm worried not to see snprintf in the list -- I'll assume that's because it's in section 3 rather than 2 of the manual.
20:34:55  If it weren't to reuse the existing software, Google would have either started from scratch or bought a new entrant with less code.
20:34:59  (I guess)
20:36:48 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-233-221.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
20:39:11  Is there any lisp alternative to make, using content change rather than timestamp?
20:41:38 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
20:42:15  lhz: you mean, like XCVB?
20:42:41  except that XCVB is currently battling signals?
20:43:14 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp
20:43:16  (and when it has vanquished, it will have to battle co-distribution of lisp images with .so's)
20:43:46  (also, XCVB doesn't right now now use content change rather timestamps, but that's a SMOP)
20:44:13  otherwise, you could write an XCVB backend for OMake or some such and be done.
20:44:31  Fare: could it be used to build a mixed lisp/c sources?
20:44:42  lhz: that's the goal, anyway.
20:45:09 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:47:27  Fare: great, I'll have a look, where do I begin, HEAD?
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20:49:21  a lot more stuff is actually safe to use in signals than is promised to be. :)
20:50:37  rme: that's because it is as close to atomic as it can be (signals can interrupt it though, it just won't muck it up)
20:50:52  lhz: lemme commit what I have...
20:53:19 Phoodus [foo@174-17-116-185.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
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20:56:19  google bought ITA: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/07/taking-off-with-ita.html
20:56:42  levente_meszaros: No way!
20:56:59  agreed to buy
20:57:04  lucky we have the hungarian news channel here!
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20:59:32  oops, I didn't read it through before posting :)
21:00:27  foom: whoa, my signal handler does get called indeed!
21:00:57  and yet there's only one thread, and the sigprocmask looks good.
21:01:08  I'm baffled.
21:02:10 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.192.133.250] has joined #lisp
21:02:45  are you suuuuure?
21:02:48 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp
21:02:52 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: fuck this shit]
21:02:54  yup
21:03:06  did you strace -ff?
21:03:16  what's the double f ?
21:03:19 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:04:24  oh, nice (thanks, man strace)
21:07:25  any lightning talkers for Monday July 26th 2010 at Boston Lisp Meeting?
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21:12:53  Fare: i've cloned at Jun 24. What would be a stable point?
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21:17:49  hi all! where may i find the language spec/std?
21:18:11  minion: clhs
21:18:11  clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS .
21:18:56 -!- meltingwax [~ddasilva@nat/google/x-quuxsqdhgeulumly] has left #lisp
21:20:07  adeht: thx!
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21:40:40 *trebor_dki* "http://www.nuskoolbreaks.co.uk/radio/listen96k.pls"
21:40:59 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:41:07  never clicking
21:41:43 dabd [~dabd@a85-139-103-114.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp
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21:43:32  lhz: whichever I last committed a tarball for is working
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21:47:50  ahem. Apparently, I catch the signal in some cloned process. How do I see from the clone syscall if it's a new thread or a new process?
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21:52:08  Grrr.
21:53:05  WTF, it looks like posix_spawn uses a thread before it actually forks and exec
21:53:21 -!- frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:53:30  the thread in which this happens catches the SIGCHLD and we lose. Sigh.
21:55:12  this sounds like someone is trying to be clever and use vfork, or somesuch, as an optimization
21:55:16  Can you change the default sigmask of a thread, or use a signal handler to rethrow the signal?
21:55:31  dunno.
21:55:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp
21:56:29  it looks like I have to do something special with posix_spawnattr_t
21:57:28  alternatively, I may decree posix_spawn as broken in glibc and stop using it.
21:57:47 -!- astalla [~astalla@93-36-228-2.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via]
21:58:33  http://paste.lisp.org downp?
21:59:35  the whole shebang is down
22:00:16  stassats`: no, intertubes still working elsewhere ;P
22:00:29  mon_key: i meant bots also
22:00:42  :]
22:02:04 -!- sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sellout]
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22:04:07  Fare: did you get my msg?
22:06:28 *Fare* wants YOU to post BLM flyers
22:07:23  Fare: use fork() instead of spawn?
22:11:42  p_l, yes I may end up writing my own variant of posix_spawn.
22:12:38 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]
22:13:48  lhz: I committed a version of XCVB with a somewhat working standalone backend.
22:14:12  i.e. I poll for children every so often to cope with signals being dropped
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22:20:16 *Fare* does not understand the signal provisions of posix_spawn, considering that execve resets signal handling information anyway.
22:20:29  next BLM: http://fare.livejournal.com/157280.html
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22:22:15  foom: many thanks for the -ff option, that helped me understand what was going on.
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22:27:14  in hunchentoot, i've read some middleware threads, but they all involve the request after the URI has been parsed.  does anyone know a way to manipulate the request before the app or framework (i'm thinking of using web4r) gets it?
22:27:42  in my current language, i have a 'middleware' that can manipulate the uri and send it on to the application.
22:27:59 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
22:28:09  the middleware discussion on hunchentoot-devel suggests doing this with a macro, but I can't see how to change the URI an application would receive there.
22:28:35  nor how to apply that to web4r itself.
22:29:18 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-123-64.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:29:44  write a function
22:30:18  Fare: I've tried git pull, but nothing happens, delay?
22:30:27  Xach: i'd assume that, just wondered if it were a common enough problem so as to have been attacked already.
22:31:15 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-76-195-126-249.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo]
22:31:22  i can do it on the webserver (the one in front of hunchentoot) but i'd rather find the 'proper' hunchentoot place to hook into, so testing is more compartmentallized and not coupled to lighttpd and the lua i'd use to manipulate the url.
22:31:59  the problem is, freeswitch sends all dialplan requests to / with just a bunch of post params.
22:32:35 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.240.180] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep]
22:32:46  so i use a normalization middleware to convert get / with post vars of :profile => default, :extension => 1234 into /dialplan/default/1234
22:32:50  and that's what the app sees.
22:33:19  the lisp way to do it is to write a function that dispatches instead of abstracting that into the url-based way I dispatched before.
22:33:29  but web4r is built around path/uri based dispatching.
22:33:43  so i'd be fighting that, if I wanted to use web4r.
22:33:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
22:37:06  Fare: I believe I stumbled upon a bug in asdf bundled with current sbcl
22:37:08 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp
22:37:45  kinda weird, but I'm trying to help someone set this project up with asdf and such, his error is as such, http://flare183.net/paste/error6.html
22:38:12  Fare: compile-file* calls compile-file, which may return NIL, T, T.. then in the :error clause of the status case, nil is passed to delete-file-if-exists
22:38:31  http://gist.github.com/460675 is the macro it's refering to
22:38:43  it works perfectly fine on my set up, but not his
22:38:48  bougyman: Maybe create your own request subclass and do whatever you need in the initialize method
22:39:20  Not sure how successful that approach would be, never really thought about doing it before
22:39:29  http://gist.github.com/460678 mm, that's where those functions it mentions are
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22:50:54  Guthur: it's just hard to get my head around where to put it.
22:51:12  i need to get better at simpler things, so i'm leaving that problem behind for now (putting it in lua on lighttpd)
22:51:21  atm i'm just trying to get my repl right.
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22:52:53  i'm trying to port a dialplan handler for freeswitch from ruby/postgres to web4r/postgres.
22:53:06  it's a very simple app, but it has that one uri routing complexity.
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22:54:20  i'm starting to think web4r doesn't do a lot for me here, so probably going to move to hunchentoot and elephant directly soon.
22:54:38  i just spent today on web4r because I had to get productive with _something_ or i was going to burn out.
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22:56:31  i see a lot of use for the continuations stuff in web4r.
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23:00:02  I am not familiar with web4r at all
23:04:36  it seems adequate for a lot of tasks.
23:04:37 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre
23:04:54  bougyman: if you like continuations, have a look at UCW
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23:10:51  wow
23:10:56  thats alot of people
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23:50:35 <_3b> zc00gii: is the call to define-key-down-event in the same file as the definition of optional-arg-form?
23:50:50  _3b: yes
23:50:57  but..he's afk now
23:51:39 <_3b> that won't work, since the code for optional-arg-form won't have been LOADED by the time it tries to expand the define-key-down-event form
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23:52:40 <_3b> you need to either put them in separate files and make fire optioal-arg-form def ie LOADED before compiling the other, or use EVAL-WHEN to make the definition of optional-arg-form happen at compile time as well
23:52:45  _3b: works on my setup
23:53:12 <_3b> ok, i guess 'duplicate your setup every where you want it to run' is another option :p
23:53:25  it's git
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23:53:47 <_3b> if you prefer, you can rephrase my earlier comment as "that won't work /portably/"
23:54:24 <_3b> i mean use the exact same lisp compiler, at the same version, on the same platform, etc
23:54:47 <_3b> if you want to code to 'what that particular implementation does' rather than code to the spec
23:55:01  we're both using sbcl
23:55:06  if that matters
23:55:16 <_3b> did you restart sbcl before testing, load it the same way, etc?
23:55:41 rvirding [~chatzilla@host-90-237-131-77.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp
23:55:46  emacs just bork3d, and it still works, so yeah
23:55:52  like, crashed
23:56:39  _3b: don't worry about
23:56:47  it, he's afk*
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