00:01:21 Paraselene_ [~Not@81-178-167-119.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:21 -!- Paraselene [~Not@81-178-167-119.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:44 asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.178] has joined #lisp 00:13:37 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 00:14:24 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:26 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 00:18:49 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:24:42 aw [~aw@p5DDABDE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:45 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B5BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:34:14 TR2 [email@89.180.166.212] has joined #lisp 00:34:33 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:35:29 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:36:46 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:37:39 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.45] has joined #lisp 00:40:16 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 00:51:59 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:52:53 angstrom [~anon@unaffiliated/angstrom] has joined #lisp 00:54:03 pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:21 hi all!, i want to look into lisp and wondered whether this is a good tutorial to start with: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 00:54:48 Very. 00:54:49 angstrom: excellent choice 00:54:59 angstrom: what OS you're using? 00:55:04 linux 00:55:13 minion: tell angstrom about linux-quickstart 00:55:14 angstrom: direct your attention towards linux-quickstart: Linux Common Lisp Quickstart (Emacs, SLIME and SBCL + clbuild): http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ 00:55:17 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:56:08 angstrom: this post will guide you through setting up a Lisp installation with all the tools, PCL is an excellent choice for introductory material (if you already programmed before) 00:56:19 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082B83D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:56:24 you might be also interested in Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation 00:56:32 minion: tell angstrom about gentle 00:56:33 angstrom: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 00:57:08 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:32 p_l: thx a lot! 00:59:20 I might write an ASDF2 amendment to quickstart sometime soon, I think 01:00:18 pjb`` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 01:00:45 -!- pjb` [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:01:09 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:02:52 daniel [~daniel@p5082B83D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:44 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:25 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.178] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:12:11 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:25:12 hi, I'm trying to escape a few sequences for shell color. How would I print a \n char (or others) without using ~% ? 01:25:48 <_3b`> ~c ? 01:26:06 <_3b`> or literal characters in the format string 01:27:11 hm, well (format t "foo~c" #\Newline) would work, but I'm not sure how to get others like \e 01:28:30 er, not a literal (format t "\\e") 01:29:37 the result of (code-char #x1B) (e.g., #\Esc) 01:31:05 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:31:25 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:31:31 adeht: ah, thanks 01:33:19 <_3b`> i think cl-interpol might understand c-style \ escapes, also 01:34:08 _3b`: ah, okay. thanks 01:36:35 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:37:12 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 01:43:34 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-63-205-38.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:44:53 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:18 powerje [~powerje@75.60.207.96] has joined #lisp 01:51:47 (loop :for d :in '(1 0 1) :for i := 1 :then (* i 2) :summing (* i d)) => 5 01:51:53 loop is frickin awesome 01:52:01 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:52:17 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-84-57.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 01:52:39 and I've not scratched the surface of it yet, I'm sure 01:52:53 bytecolor: wait till you see iterate and series then 01:53:09 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-84-57.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:15 I'm having enough fun with loop ;) 01:53:49 powerje_ [~powerje@2002:4b3c:ce0a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 01:54:00 bytecolor: For a second I misread those parentheses as square brackets, and my heart skipped a beat. 01:54:30 -!- powerje_ [~powerje@2002:4b3c:ce0a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:54:45 -!- powerje [~powerje@75.60.207.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:54:52 i still don't get the hype about 01:55:02 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-206-10.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:02 ITERATE, but series is very cool 01:55:42 ahaha, scheme allows brackets. IMO the brackets dont make the code any easier to read. 01:55:47 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:02 -!- Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-42-91.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:56:27 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:43 iterate is just loop with more lispy syntax, no? think I read a bit about it once 01:57:10 bytecolor: LOOP, being part of Lisp, could be said to have more 'lispy' syntax, non? :P 01:57:24 I dig it 01:57:39 yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has joined #lisp 01:57:43 iterate has a few features that loop does not 01:58:21 but i have never needed anything it does enough to reach for it... i admit i probably go to TAGBODY or PROG in extreme cases 01:58:54 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:59:48 bytecolor: The brackets help in Clojure, but that's because they mean something different from parentheses. 01:59:58 the semantics of loop still get me sometimes. Ok. this can go here, but not this, oh, and this will call finally, but this will not, etc. 01:59:59 So the language enforces consistency. 02:00:15 Makoryu: [] == array? 02:00:22 bytecolor: Yeah 02:00:54 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-164-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 02:01:10 koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 02:01:13 aw|rerun [~aw@p5DDA965F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:22 bytecolor: And you're supposed to use an array in place of any list that isn't an actual form 02:02:30 toast-opt [~toast-opt@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:38 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-galyednfrhnbcgap] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:02:47 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-uoijwvdaekswficq] has joined #lisp 02:03:41 -!- aw [~aw@p5DDABDE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:04:15 -!- koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit 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hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-84-57.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:34 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 04:04:05 -!- unkanon-away [~8fa6e23b@gateway/web/freenode/x-rmkgskeiqmixatss] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:07:02 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:46 -!- yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:20:13 Does common lisp provide a means of introspection for structures? Like can I say "give me the field names for this structure instance"? 04:20:50 I want to write a more intelligent with-slots which simply opens the scope of every field member in the body with the correct name, and without me having to specify it. 04:21:15 it doesn't provide such introspection even for standard objects 04:21:28 So there is no clean way to do it? 04:21:28 psilord: that's a bad idea 04:21:43 Well, bad idea or no, is it possible? 04:21:57 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:22:11 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:22:40 Hrm, I suppose if I wrote a def-structure macro which kept track of the names of the fields in a separate structure, then I could write an introspection macro to do what I want. I suppose that is close enough.... 04:23:15 psilord: there's MOP which provides such functionality for classes, and might work for structures (with emphasis on *might*) 04:23:24 silently establishing names is a bad idea, because it's confusing 04:24:05 Well, if the macro was called (with-all-slots OBJECT BODY), you'd have a good idea what it was doing. :) 04:24:24 i wouldn't 04:24:52 I agree it would be confusing since a lexical binding would have arisen without specification, but hey, macros let one do wonderous things. :) 04:24:53 and besides, you can't know of what type the object will be at runtime 04:25:27 i mean at compile-time 04:25:40 -!- eva88 is now known as pynchon 04:25:41 -!- pynchon [wa6Z4JWenv@2001:470:1f11:6a1:32a1::2] has quit [K-Lined] 04:25:43 stassats, that argument doesn't hold since I can do (with-slots (foo bar) (gethash :thing table) BODY) 04:25:53 at macro-expansion 04:26:10 psilord: doesn't hold? you just try 04:26:16 Lemme try. 04:26:53 well, sb-mop:class-slots works on SBCL structures defined in default way, dunno about vector storage 04:26:54 write a macro with-all-slots, which creates lexical variables, whose names aren't known at compile time 04:27:26 psilord: and with-slots works, because you explicitly specify (foo bar) 04:29:52 stassats, yes, it doesn't hold. with-slots allows you to use a generalized variable reference for the instance. This means at run time it could come back with a wrong object. 04:30:17 psilord: you didn't understand 04:30:24 What did I miss? 04:31:08 "creating lexical variables with unknown names at the time they should be created" 04:32:43 psilord: anyway, if you want to query slot names, MOP is the way to go. 04:33:18 Ok, if I define my own defstruct! macro, then it can parse the structure definition, and store the field names with the structure type in another structure. Then my with-all-slots macro can see what type the instance is, and bind the lexical names I need. 04:33:39 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 04:33:44 psilord: bind when? 04:33:44 psilord: you don't need that - MOP should work 04:34:04 p_l: on structures? 04:34:16 If I don't define my own defstruct!, then with-all-slots could use mangled slot names to auto-build the with-slots macro I need, like (with-all-slots OBJECT (setf sl!foobar 42)) -> (with-slots (foobar) OBJECT BODY) 04:34:18 stassats: it works on SBCL and ACL, and probably on most others as well 04:34:31 stassats: at least on the ones defined without vector storage class 04:34:51 stassats: thinking. 04:35:19 p_l: I happen to not want to use CLOS at the moment. 04:35:39 psilord: it's not possible even with CLOS and MOP 04:36:14 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qyufjybguaixhuss] has left #lisp 04:36:41 unless your macro is (with-all-slots (object type) ...) 04:36:57 right 04:37:29 I won't agree if it is possible or impossible until I work it out for myself. 04:38:17 But, what I do know now is that it isn't something lisp can immediately do. 04:39:10 Thanks for the conversation, later. 04:39:49 and by the way, with-slots doesn't create lexical variables, but symbol macros, though all i said above still holds 04:40:56 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kryhxhrhvtczehpr] has joined #lisp 04:42:33 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:42:47 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:20 psilord: there are issues between compile-time and run-time.. 04:46:35 psilord: it can work if you specify the type 04:46:43 i wonder why operators that magically create/pollute names are something newbs seems to always want.... do other languages have constructs like that these days? 04:46:55 drew, cause it means less typing. 04:47:24 That's why I only ever care, really. 04:47:32 psilord: then your doing it wrong 04:47:38 drewc: they're just lazy and impatient 04:47:40 drewc: not directly - other languages tend to implement constructs however that do that. Ruby libs are fond of autogenerating elements (especially the RoR-aligned ones) 04:48:00 stassats: the best qualities of a hacker, IMHO. :) 04:48:11 if you're spending a lot of time typing the names of accessors, something is wrong indeed. 04:48:49 psilord: except you're attacking the problem in way which leads to more work later, when you are figuring "where the fuck this identifier came from!?" 04:49:38 p_l: that could very well be true. I wasn't debating whether it is a good idea or not, I'm debating is it possible, and if so, how. :) 04:49:52 yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has joined #lisp 04:51:00 p_l: Im curious just how spectacularly lisp will let me shoot myself in my foot. 04:51:17 lisp is not optimised for shooting yourself in the foot 04:51:53 Lisp is a lot of things, and I mean to find out each and every one of them. 04:51:55 if you want to do things poorly and half-arsed, there are many languages out there that fit the bill :) 04:52:16 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:52:32 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:52 Meh, one can write poorly and half-assed in anything. I just want to know what is possible. Every thing, whether well-known idiom, or oddball thing noone would ever want to do, is simply a tool to be used at the right time. I'm exploring, nothing more, nothing less. 04:54:23 actually... progv exists and will let you shoot yourself in the foot with runtime variables and run time, and have the bonus feature of being dynamically scoped! 04:54:36 errr 04:54:48 an extra runtime in there 04:54:57 clhs progv 04:54:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm 04:54:58 well, you can walk code in the body and replace free variables with slot accessors, a good recipe for shooting yourself in the foot 04:55:40 yeah, code walkers are another good way to lose a toe or two 04:55:42 psilord: Lisp can let you shoot yourself not only in the foot, but with W83 warhead even... if you figure how 04:56:25 psilord: while it's quite possible to do what you want, nobody who knows enough lisp to know how would ever think it a good idea ;) 04:56:27 my favourite hack so far was very implementation-specific, as it relied on undefined behaviour. 04:57:05 (putting literals in LET then manipulating them) 04:57:36 can't you make that with load-time-value? 04:57:39 drewc: that is probably true. Still though, I'm not going to be afraid of learning something because it is wrong or because it might be complex. 04:57:59 wrong only has a meaning in context, and I'd need to see it for myself. :) 04:58:31 psilord: why would you want to learn the wrong way to do something? practicing the wrong thing does more harm than good, as my piano teacher would constantly tell me. 04:58:58 zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@hoasnet-fe22dd00-59.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:59:22 Same reason why in "On Lisp" there are numerous pieces of macros/functions which are labeled as ; Wrong. It needs to be figured out at some time. 04:59:39 oh, well there's your problem 04:59:56 that entire book deserves that label IMO :) 05:00:00 :) 05:00:50 psilord: be wary of taking CL advice from Graham : 05:00:53 minion: graham crackers? 05:00:53 :D 05:00:54 graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 05:01:22 any idea how to get cl+ssl and cffi to work on openbsd? 05:01:29 I get errors from libssl 05:01:44 -!- rj-code [~user@112.198.136.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:45 a lot of "undefined symbol ...." 05:01:55 retupmoca` [~retupmoca@adsl-76-235-174-254.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:14 -!- TR2 is now known as TR2N 05:02:22 minion: tell psilord about PCL 05:02:23 psilord: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:02:31 psilord: that's a much better book to learn lisp from 05:02:37 minion: tell psilord about gentle 05:02:38 psilord: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 05:02:43 minion: tell psilord about PAIP 05:02:44 psilord: direct your attention towards PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 05:03:07 psilord: and I recommend reading those three in that order :D 05:03:21 gentle maybe before PCL 05:03:51 depends on your level of ability... if you already know how to program, than PCL first, because you're not ready for Gentle. 05:04:15 if you are a total newb, you are ready for Gentle but not PCL :D 05:04:19 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:04:31 pnq [asdf@AC82F3C6.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:04:32 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:53 -!- retupmoca [~retupmoca@adsl-76-236-181-239.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:05:58 Meh, I'm not a newb in hacking. I just am asking questions that go against the grain of the language. Don't assume that I'm stupid. 05:06:25 Either my questions have an answer, or you don't know. Simple. 05:06:38 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:06:46 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:06:49 i think you misunderstand 05:06:52 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:58 -!- retupmoca` [~retupmoca@adsl-76-235-174-254.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:07:03 or "questions are wrong" 05:07:03 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 05:07:54 then getting a good CLOS book and maybe User Level Language Crafting or somehow like that 05:08:14 sometimes the only answer is  (Mu) 05:08:31 drewc: I'll perfectly accept that answer. 05:09:23 psilord: I recommend reading ESR's essay on asking questions, then 05:10:07 p_l: I would recommend seriously introspecting into your self whenever your answer is "Why would you ever want to do that." 05:10:10 p_l: Keene is excellent, but i found i didn't understand CLOS until i read AMOP... once you understand that CLOS is just the default, it makes a lot more sense :) 05:11:18 my problem is exactly the reverse of drewc's 05:11:26 i don't get AMOP without keene's 05:11:29 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:30 CLOS 05:11:40 ok, halfway i do 05:11:46 but not fully 05:12:14 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:12:29 and there is one other book, orignally written in french 05:12:29 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:37 LiSP 05:12:55 Lisp In Small Pieces? 05:13:00 right 05:13:00 T 05:13:13 that's good too 05:14:08 and i'm not through with all of'em 05:14:12 only half way 05:14:13 lol 05:14:25 psilord: introspection was proven to be a broken mechanism leading to fallacies (seriously). And I looked over your initial proposal and I could even implement it, I just stopped when I starte thinking of the issues it added compared to gains 05:15:07 drewc: my personal favourite is Paepcke, in terms of MOP 05:15:35 PAIP is very good 05:15:56 didn't read Papcke's yet 05:15:56 I actually have a large collection of lisp books, and a vast collection of scheme papers. I've read them, over and over, and work many of the exercizes. I've written lots of scheme, but not that much lisp. There are certain things I query about a language in order to completely internalize and understand it. One of the purposes to my learning is using lisp to model other experimental languages that have extremely odd behavior whe 05:16:08 sure, AMOP is much more detailed, but Paepcke's "User-Level Language Crafting" was a nice, simple introduction to MOP 05:16:23 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 05:16:24 p_l: true, it's a nice overview. 05:16:41 I was seeing if lisp provided this behavior or there was an idiom for it. Apparently not is the answer. 05:16:56 drewc: it also drives the point behind "why there are so many cases of NIH" 05:16:58 psilord: lisp is dynamically typed 05:17:04 *stassats* only read http://alu.org/mop 05:17:21 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:17:29 yep, dynamically typed is much confusion... 05:17:30 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:40 psilord: lexical scope is also known as static scope... because it's a compile-time thing 05:17:46 kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:30 psilord: since variables do not have types, you cannot know, at compile time, what lexical variables to create for your with-all-slots form 05:18:40 psilord: in order to efficiently implement your proposal, anyway, you need two things - generate identifiers (frowned upon, but not hard) and restrict types (not so hard as well if you explicitly provide the type, which is what happens for example in Object Pascal which contains similar construct) 05:19:03 drewc: or rather symbol-macrolets 05:19:07 drewc, I agree. It is apparent to me now that at best I would have to use a dynamic scoped variable to model this idea. 05:19:33 psilord: indeed, which you don't want to do either. 05:19:43 dynamic variables wouldn't work either, actually, at least the way with-slots does work 05:19:47 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:19:56 stassats: true, setf won't work 05:19:57 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:21 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kryhxhrhvtczehpr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:20:42 drewc: and variables won't be updated if slot's value is changed 05:21:12 and at the end of the books one has to turn back to the actual ANSI spec and look what has changed since ... 05:21:14 The only way I can see this work is if I partition the possible bindings upon which with-all-slots may work. If I allow both lisp structures and my own structure definitions, then having it work looks hard to impossible. 05:21:30 retupmoca` [~retupmoca@adsl-76-235-174-254.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:53 This would appear to be a case where the lisp language objects are not interchangable with my experimental language's objects. 05:22:23 This has meaning in that I may not be able to embed lisp into the experimental language I'm modeling. 05:22:30 the easiest way is to just specify a type 05:22:41 and to the impl. specs to see what is actually implemented which way, for those things the ANSI tells it's impl. dependent 05:23:22 and if you want to type less, welcome to APL 05:23:50 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.156.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:24:13 exactly, explicitness is a feature ,not a bug. 05:24:19 Heh, I studied APL with moderate interest for a while. :) 05:25:05 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gymsneptqirrfaah] has joined #lisp 05:26:09 psilord: PAIP got excellent material on compiling languages into CL 05:26:34 p_l: That is one of the few books I don't own, and is in my queue to purchase. 05:27:47 there is a new edition 05:27:51 the 3rd one 05:28:14 aren't you mixing it with AIMA? 05:29:43 Stattrav [~Stattrav@124.125.181.135] has joined #lisp 05:33:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-227.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:33:45 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:33:58 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:35:13 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:35:28 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:53 Bed time for me. I appreciate the conversation. Thank you all. 05:36:22 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:48 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:36:58 billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:12 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-61-20.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:38:25 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:39:59 p_1: that sounds interesting, which chapter? 05:41:21 -!- billitch [~billitch@rob92-1-82-67-155-88.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:41:35 -!- yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:41:49 yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has joined #lisp 05:44:29 segmond [~seg@adsl-99-91-193-46.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:58 toast`: 12, 22 and 23 05:49:17 thanks 05:55:15 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@hugmyndahus.hir.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:58:08 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:59:53 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 06:02:31 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:02:57 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:08:52 plage [~user@118.68.252.246] has joined #lisp 06:08:56 Good afternoon! 06:09:54 hi plage 06:13:58 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:47 plage` [~user@118.68.252.246] has joined #lisp 06:18:19 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:19:23 -!- plage [~user@118.68.252.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:19:31 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:19:43 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:21:06 plage`: hi 06:21:26 -!- plage` is now known as plage 06:21:36 (define-grammar (foo) (start let progn defun) (let "let") (progn "prog\ 06:21:38 n") (defun "defun")) 06:21:51 p_l: Hey, sorry about the flaky internet connection. 06:22:08 now I can define a grammar with any lisp symbol, coolness 06:22:10 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-36-34.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:03 so that will match the string "let progn defun" 06:23:17 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-160-215.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 06:24:04 sbcl was pissing me off with it's package lock warnings ;) 06:24:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:24:10 *its 06:25:19 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25:33 cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 06:29:45 -!- aw|rerun [~aw@p5DDA965F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 06:31:45 -!- Kizaru [~plaz@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:34:02 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:37:12 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gymsneptqirrfaah] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:37:32 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-25-139.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:39:26 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-60-111.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:43:20 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:43:54 j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has joined #lisp 06:45:27 -!- plage [~user@118.68.252.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:49:17 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 06:51:24 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-44.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:52:27 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:52:47 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.222] has joined #lisp 06:53:56 good morning 06:55:10 -!- xan_ [~xan@83.32.114.158] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:55:41 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-160-215.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:58:11 ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 06:58:43 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:59:02 xan_ [~xan@33.Red-83-36-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:01 madmuppet006 [~alexander@203-211-100-194.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:01:24 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dclhddpnmnfxlmpx] has joined #lisp 07:02:43 -!- ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:03:13 ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:58 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:04:02 Im trying to use some elements of a struct in a function but I cant find anything relating to this online .. been looking for a while so not sure whether Im using the wrong search parameter or not .. any hints appreciated 07:04:31 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:04:47 in what language ? 07:04:49 lisp ? 07:04:51 or c ? 07:05:08 sepult: in lisp yes 07:05:21 in c it's struct.member 07:05:40 in lisp you access member's with the accessor slots i think 07:06:38 I can create the struct and give values to the members I cant use those members in a function 07:06:44 oh 07:07:03 HG` [~HG@85.8.91.151] has joined #lisp 07:08:01 -!- j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:08:16 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:08:17 do you talk of the object instance of of the class now ?! 07:08:30 s/of/or/1 07:09:43 (defstruct foo x) (let ((fs (make-foo :x 42))) (foo-x fs)) => 42 07:10:23 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 07:10:51 yes I can do that .. what I want to do is use x in a function somewhere else .. 07:13:19 you need an instance of foo to get to x, you can't tuck away a 'pointer' to x, afaik. 07:13:35 j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has joined #lisp 07:13:40 -!- zard1989 [~zard1989@Joe.m4.ntu.edu.tw] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:13:49 that's what i meant 07:13:50 ok 07:14:22 so you have to create it inside the function you want to use 07:14:31 right 07:14:35 matthew_y [~matt@c-71-201-6-9.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:38 if you want to access the members? 07:14:56 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 07:14:59 or give pass the function an instance of foo 07:15:14 vng [~user@118.68.174.236] has joined #lisp 07:15:16 or capture the environment of the struct to some variable ? 07:15:37 err closures ? 07:15:52 no that's what he meant at first 07:15:55 maus [~maus@118.68.174.236] has joined #lisp 07:16:07 how would I pass an instance of foo? I tried a lot of random stuff after looking online for ages 07:16:11 could someone give me a brief synopsis on the differences of Common Lisp and Scheme? I know that they are both lisp dialects, but that's about it. 07:16:22 madmuppet006: global variables? passing struct as parameter? 07:16:32 Good afternoon! 07:17:04 scheme small, common lisp huge ;) 07:17:05 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0060-81-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:17:43 p_l: I want to be able to use members in a struct in a function .. just been told that I have to form the struct in the function or pass an instance of it to the function .. I have been looking online for a while so I came here for some pointers 07:19:56 vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:45 does anyone have an implementation of CL that they would recommend to a windows user? 07:22:55 try lispworks ? 07:23:04 matthew_y: google Practical Common Lisp, I think the author of the book has a implementation that works on windows. At least there was at one time. I think it was based on clisp 07:23:18 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:23:38 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:24:04 lisp in a box or some such, I havent booted to windows in a long time. ;) 07:24:44 y go there now ? :) 07:25:05 aw [~aw@w4588.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 07:25:43 install some virtualization tool, install linux inside and use SBCL (first steps to start forgetting windowze). or just install linux and virtualbox, and boot your windoze whenever you need it 07:27:18 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 07:28:34 bytecolor, the book suggests Allegro Common Lisp 07:29:19 madmuppet006: you can think of "instance" as a pointer to allocated struct in C - it is what make-foo returns 07:30:24 bytecolor, but it has a commercial license, of course 07:30:32 matthew_y: I'd say go with either ACL or LW for "easy" ride, or you can try advanced course with manual installation of stuff, SLIME, Emacs, ClozureCL and ASDF2 07:32:31 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [] 07:32:37 for the second I'd recommend having a SUA-capable Windows version (Server, Ultimate or Enterprise) 07:33:18 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:34:27 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:34:37 vng` [~user@183.80.156.92] has joined #lisp 07:34:41 (and if you're on NT5.x on desktop, then you already have all the rope in the world to hang yourself with, switch to *nix or upgrade) 07:35:02 -!- vng` [~user@183.80.156.92] has quit [Client Quit] 07:35:25 -!- maus [~maus@118.68.174.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:35:31 maus [~maus@183.80.156.92] has joined #lisp 07:35:36 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:35:41 -!- vng [~user@118.68.174.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:35:56 relax guys, I'm not here advocating that you all switch to windows 07:36:36 vng [~user@183.80.156.92] has joined #lisp 07:36:58 for windows, you can use clisp under cygwin or lispinabox too 07:37:38 there is also corman lisp, they have free evaluation for non commercial users. there is also a port of sbcl, but i don't know how stable it is, but probably good for a beginner starting out. 07:38:26 matthew_y: Neither I am - ACL and LW have reasonably capable personal editions that come "packaged" and work fine on windows, Clozure works with slight glitches (the infamous WoW64 issue) but would require setting IDE etc. by yourself, Corman is nice and cheap, but lacks proper Unicode support, CLISP... I haven't tested it much, but its integration with SLIME is afaik not too good? and GCL is something you run away from, not use 07:38:37 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:38:38 ECL is a ride for maniacs and pros ;-) 07:39:05 SBCL has issues with Windows, though it reportedly works much better on Win64 07:39:30 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:07 My personal recommendation is either personal editions of ACL or LW (if for learning), if you plan on doing something more on tight budget, CCL and/or ECL (but it involves extra setup) 07:43:21 nostoi [~nostoi@233.Red-79-154-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:36 (Oh, and I meant it - ditch XP if you're still running it) 07:44:23 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:16 p_l, I'm not don't worry 07:45:28 and thank you for the suggestions, everyone 07:45:54 matthew_y: I personally can vouch for CCL/win64 + EmacsW32 + SLIME combination 07:46:48 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:47:52 though if running on windows, be sure to grab ASDF2 - it has builtin support for recursive search so it's easier to get running on Windows 07:48:06 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@233.Red-79-154-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:48:12 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:48:23 my own windows install wouldn't classify as normal so keeping symlinks wasn't a problem :) 07:48:37 -!- cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:53:39 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:54:02 npoektop [~npoektop@92.60.84.90] has joined #lisp 07:56:28 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-178-101.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:59:04 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:59:19 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 07:59:34 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.166.212] has left #lisp 08:00:16 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:04:41 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 08:05:17 vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-ymndjeryiupcwrzx] has joined #lisp 08:06:47 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.45] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:08:09 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:08:13 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:08:14 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:18 Any recommendations for portable toolkit to use with cl? 08:09:52 I've searched a bit but everything seems to be work in progress or kinda old 08:10:07 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:11:28 what is a "toolkit"? 08:11:47 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:12:57 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 08:13:52 hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-139-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:14:37 ah, I mean how to write GUI in cl? 08:15:08 well, they might be work in progress or old, but have you at least tried using em? 08:15:31 I thought to ask here for recommendations before going on 08:15:54 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755993.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:04 well, i don't know. i'm a lisp newbie myself. :) i have seen wxcl which is built on the wxwindows toolkit 08:16:15 but i don't think it's being maintained anymore... 08:16:25 seemed pretty old 08:17:38 i used cl-gtk2 and it worked 08:17:38 well, i haven't had a need for it yet, but when it's time, i will use it and see what limitations it has. 08:17:44 use bindings for Tk, GTK+, Qt if you need an actual toolkit. Use SDL or OpenGL if you just want to draw some graphics. Use CLIM if you're feeling adventurous. 08:17:51 ah, didn't know there was a cl-gtk2, that will be good then. :) 08:18:23 oh wow@lichtblau, that's a whole bunch of em. gtk and qt got bindings? well zmyrgel, there goes your answer. :) 08:19:24 The Qt one seemed dead and cl-gtk2 seemed to be pretty much work-in-progress 08:19:57 gtk seems to have lot of bindings so I think I try some of those 08:20:11 just try it first, sometimes something might not be actively developed because there is nothing else to really add to it. :) and i have seen work in progress version .01 that are as good as version 2.0 in other softwares 08:20:33 thats true too 08:20:48 But old Qt bindings doubtfully work on the new Qt4 08:21:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 08:23:13 ltk, cl-gtk2, those two would be my pick probably. Another option is web-based GUI (make a shell in Qt4.5 that exports necessary functionality to JS, have it display the GUI and run the process) 08:23:27 zmyrgel: CommonQt is written specifically for Qt4.5 and later 08:23:46 (well, it might work with a slightly earlier version, but it might be hard to do) 08:24:41 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:24:58 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:25:03 -!- madmuppet006 [~alexander@203-211-100-194.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:25:29 p_l: oh, gotta see to it as my GUI experience is limited to Java Swing and Qt4 08:27:07 still, CommonQt has a little temperament and might not always work okay... though it tends to work. Haven't checked lately 08:27:25 ok 08:27:54 Finally starting to get hang of the clbuild 08:29:15 -!- c|mell [~cmell@62.242.28.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:29:19 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-qwpheoavqhshttwg] has joined #lisp 08:31:46 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:32:45 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:33:45 -!- pnq [asdf@AC82F3C6.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:34:07 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dclhddpnmnfxlmpx] has left #lisp 08:34:32 (eval (eval 1)) 08:34:47 http://www.cliki.net/wxCL is missing the standard cliki footer (edit, revisions, links, ...). Is this a known bug ? 08:35:00 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mragvpstvezjxdqi] has joined #lisp 08:35:03 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mragvpstvezjxdqi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:32 kuwabara: cliki needs an overhaul, but so far no-one had time 08:35:39 -!- xan_ [~xan@33.Red-83-36-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:35:43 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 08:35:59 p_l: thanks 08:36:46 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mmeckzzjrelqgcmn] has joined #lisp 08:36:53 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mmeckzzjrelqgcmn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37:03 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cxdmwfxolietnrhz] has joined #lisp 08:37:09 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37:17 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cxdmwfxolietnrhz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37:30 jacobian [~jacobian@89.124.152.101] has joined #lisp 08:38:49 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mfceipmzwfjpjgmh] has joined #lisp 08:39:03 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:24 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:40:48 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:43:29 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:44:10 For some reason slime won't find the commonqt package I installed through clbuild 08:44:21 component "qt" not found 08:47:56 shouldn't it find it if I put the clbuild/systems dir to asdf:*central-registry*? 08:53:05 -!- segmond [~seg@adsl-99-91-193-46.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:54:36 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:59:06 -!- hachiya [~hachiya@encyclical.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:04:59 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:05:47 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:08:02 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:08:11 zmyrgel: it should, so you probably need to be a little more explicit about what's going wrong and what you did (use lisppaste) 09:08:31 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:08:38 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:11:00 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 09:13:05 aerique: ok, unfortunately I don't have time to debug it rigth now. 09:13:48 I'll see if I can solve the problem tonight and post more informative question if I need more help with it 09:17:32 zmyrgel: alright. you could also try cl-gtk2 if things don't work out. 09:19:04 I'd prefer qt as I have some prior experience with it 09:21:01 trityum [~shdd@78.191.97.82] has joined #lisp 09:21:08 -!- trityum [~shdd@78.191.97.82] has left #lisp 09:25:24 -!- zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@hoasnet-fe22dd00-59.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:25:50 -!- matthew_y [~matt@c-71-201-6-9.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:29:12 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:31:40 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:36 -!- cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:54:41 plage [~user@58.186.14.124] has joined #lisp 09:54:42 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@eap111068.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 09:55:10 Good almost evening! 09:56:27 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:56:31 hello plage 09:56:33 hello plage! 09:57:04 plage: how are you doing? 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10:47:06 or the most efficient way. 10:47:35 leo2007: "discard" in what sense? 10:49:12 leo2007: exchange the car and the cadr, then remove the cdr instead (assumes it exists, otherwise not possible). 10:50:13 leo2007: You can of course do it by modifying both L and ABC, but if N is large, it won't be efficient. 10:50:51 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:50:52 -!- andelf [~andelf@119.118.230.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:50:59 leo2007: But if you are trying to do something like that, you are probably using the wrong data structure. 10:52:42 -!- stis_i8 [~chatzilla@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:55:37 plage: I think of one way, setf the car to nil and then delete nil once. 10:56:40 leo2007: That's worse than using (setf cdr) and N. As slow, and assumes there is no other nil in the list. 10:57:13 leo2007: And it may not alter ABC. 10:58:33 plage: OK I'll go with exchange the first two elements and then setf cdr. 10:58:53 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59:31 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-95-151.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:59:45 *plage* goes to search for a better connection 10:59:52 -!- plage [~user@118.68.252.208] has left #lisp 11:00:00 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-44.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:00:11 "then remove the cdr instead" this discard the cdr, isn't it? I want to discard the car 11:02:15 -!- ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:04:52 -!- schmx is now known as schmrkc 11:05:38 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@124.125.181.135] has quit [Quit: Well, the machine might have gone down. Brb after a reboot.] 11:06:13 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-182.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:07:10 bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-133-77-125.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:17 ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:06 galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 11:12:45 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:16:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: reboot] 11:17:47 ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:20:12 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:22:21 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 11:24:21 zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@hoasnet-fe22dd00-59.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:24:37 plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has joined #lisp 11:24:43 Good evening! 11:25:23 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755993.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26:23 Evenin' 11:26:53 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:57 Ah, my idea of a good time. Good quiet restaurant with free (and hopefully reliable) wifi, nice staff, good food, good wine. I feel better already. 11:27:11 Been feelin' bad? 11:27:31 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.222] has joined #lisp 11:27:42 schmrkc: Yeah, nothing is working this time, like wifi, phone. 11:28:12 schmrkc: I took a cheaper hotel, because they are rebuilding my favorite one, and it's just not up to snuff. 11:30:35 amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has joined #lisp 11:33:20 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:38:38 hello plage 11:41:43 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:53 hey mvilleneuve 11:43:20 mvilleneuve: We really need stamp now :) They moved the machine on which I do my mail to a virtual server with very slow disk access, so saving a typical INBOX takes 3 minutes now. Since this is done whenever Emacs auto saves, I waste an estimated hour per day waiting for disk access. :( 11:44:27 plage: I see :) 11:44:30 plage: wow... 11:45:42 I guess I could set auto-save to nil, but then with flaky internet, I would lose work instead :( 11:48:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:48:30 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:49:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:51:03 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:52:06 Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-161.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:18 plage: remote access, remote filesystem or IMAP? 11:54:23 Kizaru [~plaz@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:28 pluto12345 [~carcola@unaffiliated/pluto12345] has joined #lisp 11:54:35 When looking at a string displayed in sldb, which is too long to be be shown in full, is there a way to see that string properly? I've tried RET, which goes to the inspector, but that displays the string only as an array, i.e. one character per line. 11:54:50 p_l: Yes, very good idea. Now give me a client with all the features I expect from Emacs (kbd macros, abbrevs, two-keystroke commands, etc). 11:54:55 is there some collection of basic algorithms implemented in lisp? 11:55:11 <_3b__> lichtblau: p or v i think 11:55:26 p_l: I have been looking very hard, and I haven't found anything that I like, hence the Stamp project. 11:55:33 -!- _3b__ is now known as _3b 11:55:50 pluto12345: The concept of "basic algorithms" is very vague indeed. 11:56:05 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0060-81-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 11:56:33 _3b: thanks 11:56:37 pluto12345: a rather broad question. there's a lot of stuff on cliki, but also at the cmu ai repo, etc. what exactly did you have in mind? 11:56:48 plage: I was happily using IMAP from Emacs without any big performance hits even on congested links 11:57:02 i'm searhing for ford-fulkerson 11:57:14 couldn't find by googling 11:57:35 of course it shouldn't be that hard to implement using cl-graph, but having some ready to use algorithm would be better 11:57:37 plage: mind you, I dropped Gnus rather fast - it's really inefficient. Wanderlust was like switching from Bleriot to MiG-31 11:58:25 p_l: And you just keep all your mail on the IMAP server? 11:58:50 p_l: As I recall, I looked into Wanderlust but I forget what problems I had. 11:59:03 pluto12345: beats me, i'm afraid. 11:59:25 pluto12345: I don't think anyone uses a publically available ready-made library for that in industry (or research, for that matter, unless it's their own) 12:00:14 pluto12345: So ford-fulkerson is considered "basic algorithm"? That collection must be pretty big then. I thought you were looking for things like inserting an element in a vector. 12:00:18 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:36 plage: GMail is still better archive than my own harddrives 12:00:50 plage: it's the most basic flow algorithm i'd say, and flow formulations are really popular for several problems 12:00:59 anyways thank you guys 12:01:30 (especially since I had at least three clients on different machines) 12:02:20 <_3b> lichtblau: looks like there is also slime-pretty-print-presentation-at-point, doesn't seem to be bound to anything besides right-click menu though 12:04:07 I have a generic function PLOT that behave differently when pass on 1-d arrays or 2-d arrays, there's no finer type/class than array for this, right? 12:04:54 leo2007: a 1d array is a vector 12:05:07 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:06:08 leo2007: VECTOR names a system class 12:06:20 Xach: thanks 12:08:02 p_l: Problem is, this is professional email, so I don't use Gmail. What happens if I need to search the Subject field of 1M messages for some string? Then, grep is not working so well either these days. 12:08:09 I have various generic functions such as PLOT, BAR, HIST for (line, bar, histogram plots). they share the same setup and cleanup. So I am thinking of creating a base-class for them to inherit. But then the base-class would have no slots. Is this weird? 12:08:38 plage: Sieve-based search? 12:08:42 leo2007: no 12:08:43 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:09:07 leo2007: I assumed you meant L is (a b c d e) and ABC is (d e), and you want to remove d so that L is (a b c e) and ABC is (e). 12:09:23 plage: yes 12:09:35 turns out, there is an ongoing effort to bring threads to sbcl-windows 12:10:23 leo2007: in which case you exchange d and e (rotatef (car ABC) (cadr ABC)) so that you get L is (a b c e d) and ABC is (e d) and then you do (setf (cdr ABC) (cddr ABC)) 12:11:57 leo2007: Which works if (cdr ABC) is not nil. 12:12:02 too bad its description is only in Russian 12:12:35 plage: do you have to special-case removing last element? 12:12:36 p_l: I don't know. Does the average IMAP server do that? 12:12:46 leo2007: You are out of luck. 12:12:56 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 12:13:11 leo2007: There is no way the last cell of L can be removed only by accessing ABC. 12:13:15 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:14:22 plage: a fully featured server, yes. GMail slightly breaks semantics, though 12:14:25 plage: so it seems if I know for sure there won't be any nil elements in L, setf car to nil and do delete is the simpler and efficient way. 12:14:39 Now modify IMAP to have persistent message ids and better caching... 12:15:13 Xach: can you write a couple of words about threads-on-sbcl-win32 project in your blog? 12:15:48 leo2007: I don't see how that could be more efficient. You would have to delete wrt L (which could have a long prefix), and you still would not be sure that ABC would be affected. 12:16:52 plage: abc is temporary, the intention is to delete some elements in L 12:17:29 leo2007: It is still less efficient to traverse the prefix of L that precedes ABC, than it is to access the first two elements of ABC. 12:18:05 but to delete the last element, don't you have to traverse L anyway? 12:18:14 Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:18:28 leo2007: Fine, so just do it all the time. I thought you asked for an efficient way. 12:18:44 drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-164-157.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:19 leo2007: And if you are going to traverse L anyway, use the value of N instead, as in (pop (cdr (nthcdr (1- n) L))) or something like that. 12:19:22 plage: I do. Just not sure which is better considering deleting last element. 12:19:49 leo2007: (setf L (nbutlast L)) 12:20:34 leo2007: But you seem to have an inefficient, incorrect idea in mind. Just use it. 12:23:47 plage: I am always ready to discard any silly idea ;) 12:24:02 leo2007: Good to know. 12:29:17 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31:20 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:33:35 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:45 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:52:53 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-139-149.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:03 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-32-82-254-16-160.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:56:58 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 12:57:38 Wow! This wifi has been working for more than an hour. I think I'll just have dinner here every night so that I can get something done. In addition, the staff knows me so I get good service. 12:58:45 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@eap111068.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:59:43 *p_l* ponders how often he will contradict his lectures during exams... HCI today 13:00:26 do we have rfc2152 in lisp ? 13:01:33 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:01:51 kiuma: Which one is that? 13:02:33 utf-7 encoding/decoding 13:06:20 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:07:07 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:07:36 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-84-57.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 13:09:53 p_l: Is that a good idea? 13:10:23 ejs [~eugen@123-207-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:29 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mfceipmzwfjpjgmh] has left #lisp 13:12:51 plage: I consider various suggestions to be incorrect in details, not in spirit 13:13:43 p_l: Good for you! Good luck anyway! 13:14:02 example: suggestion to use Arial and Helvetica for the sake of similarity 13:14:18 Is 'slime-browse-classes' gone? 13:15:38 p_l: This is HCI? Wow! I would have thought something based on Cooper or what's-his-name-again who designed the first macintosh interface. 13:16:55 Raskin. 13:17:28 plage: that's also included in model-based analysis 13:17:44 p_l: A different course? 13:18:44 plage: no, part of HCI 13:18:52 Ah. OK. 13:18:53 one of three different types of analysis 13:19:53 Raskin is pretty good. Very extreme. Perfect for a university course, because he forces us to think. 13:30:29 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [*.net *.split] 13:30:59 Wow! Two hours and no interruption. I might change hotels actually. 13:31:19 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:03 unfortunately his actual design seems to be outside the scope of current theme of HCI, at least for undergrads 13:32:32 p_l: I can see that. But it's too bad, because it's good stuff. 13:32:58 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 13:33:02 time to scram to uni, see you 13:33:24 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:31 p_l: Good luck! 13:34:07 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 13:35:34 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 13:35:57 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:23 -!- yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:36:50 yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has joined #lisp 13:38:31 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:43:32 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 13:50:03 *plage* leaves restaurant to go back to hotel with flaky internet connection. 13:50:08 -!- plage [~user@113.161.65.230] has left #lisp 13:53:27 cupe [~cupe@mein.eigensex.org] has joined #lisp 13:53:37 -!- aw [~aw@w4588.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 13:56:56 -!- yoonkn [~yoonkn@112.221.19.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:05:17 -!- j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has quit [] 14:07:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:07:53 nvteighen [~nvteighen@211.Red-88-16-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:57 hi! 14:07:59 kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:13:01 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:54 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:01 kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:05 Stattrav [~Stattrav@124.125.181.135] has joined #lisp 14:20:26 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:09 nvteighen: hi 14:23:19 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 14:24:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:33 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:26:27 -!- ejs [~eugen@123-207-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:27:28 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:29:21 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 14:29:36 Fare: ping 14:30:32 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-95-151.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:30:54 marioxcc [~user@200.92.176.147] has joined #lisp 14:31:13 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 14:34:06 PaulVan [~bubble@p54AA76A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:19 -!- nvteighen [~nvteighen@211.Red-88-16-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 14:42:46 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:46:42 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:51:21 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-240.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:15 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@124.125.181.135] has quit [Quit: Well, the machine might have gone down. Brb after a reboot.] 15:00:17 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:04 benny` [~benny@i577A84EE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:29 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1EC5.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:05:04 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:27 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-124-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:11:02 -!- erg [~erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:11:39 pjb [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:37 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:13:53 -!- benny` is now known as benny 15:14:25 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:37 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:15:56 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755993.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:25 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.216.98] has joined #lisp 15:18:17 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:21:23 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-201.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:22:00 -!- kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:05 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:22:43 kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:35 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 15:30:17 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 15:32:25 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:33:38 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-qwpheoavqhshttwg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:22 segmond [~seg@adsl-99-91-193-46.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:44 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-195-89.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:35:59 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-195-89.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:37:22 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 15:38:50 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:39:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:31 varjag [~eugene@59-120-36-179.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:08 Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:42:16 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 15:43:47 Is it ok to make assumptions about the surrounding environment when doing a macrolet or would it be consider dangerously bad form. 15:44:24 The environment being the containing function 15:44:25 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.91.151] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:46:00 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 15:50:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@94-135.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:52:24 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:52:37 symbole_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:15 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:34 -!- vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-ymndjeryiupcwrzx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:19 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:56:30 Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:07 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@92.60.84.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:57:07 Is there a way of using multiple keys in a hash table? 15:57:41 Something like (gethash '(foo bar) *hashtable*)? 15:58:03 Guthur: it's passable if you document it carefully, otherwise it's very bad form 15:58:23 macro breakage is 10x as hard to diagnose as bugs in functions 15:58:23 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-195-89.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:38 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-195-89.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:58:39 Phantom_Hoover: what would be the semantic ? return a list of values ? return the first that matches ? return only if all the keys have the same value ? 15:59:04 Phantom_Hoover: you can use a list as a hash table key if you like. 15:59:07 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:59:16 Phantom_Hoover: you have to use a table created with the appropriate test 15:59:20 Phantom_Hoover: the main problem in you example is that the whole list is a single key. 15:59:20 Ahh. 15:59:22 revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:59:53 mathrick: Ye, they are very short functions, I'd just like a macrolet to make some parts a little more succinct 16:00:19 Guthur: ooh, you mean macrolet done by hand? Then yes, it's okay 16:00:26 Xach: What test function should I use? 16:00:37 what I said holds for macrolets resulting from some other macros 16:00:48 Phantom_Hoover: equal or equalp 16:00:55 OK. 16:01:05 Guthur: your local definitions are obviously allowed to make assumptions, that's why they're local 16:01:15 Why doesn't it just use that by default? 16:01:42 Phantom_Hoover: the default is eql, and it is more efficient for a lot of situations. 16:01:57 mathrick, Cheers for the input 16:03:30 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 16:04:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:05:07 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:05:22 -!- pjb [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:05:32 Joreji [~thomas@66-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:09:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-210.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:09:46 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:12:36 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0060-81-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:13:11 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:14:03 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:17:29 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 16:18:50 sepult` [~user@cable-195-14-196-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:18:59 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 16:19:41 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:21:14 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-34-232-91.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:25:26 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:25:43 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:27:05 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 16:28:34 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:32:19 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 -!- varjag [~eugene@59-120-36-179.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:33:27 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:33:55 -!- mrSpec is now known as away 16:34:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-124-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:34:27 -!- away is now known as spec`away 16:35:19 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0060-81-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:31 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:36:03 erg [~erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:06 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:37:40 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:27 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:44:55 edev [~user@adsl-99-23-150-121.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:42 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:47 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:47:07 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:47:17 -!- symbole_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]] 16:47:26 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-84-57.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:35 Hi there. Is there a decent way to deploy Lisp applications to client computers? I always read about Lisp running on the server side, but it's a shame not to write desktop applications in it if feasible. 16:48:29 Weeell, you can always package a Lisp implementation and an image with your application. 16:48:52 And SBCL lets you make a single executable, but that has the disadvantage of being *huge*. 16:50:01 edev: depends on your implementation: abcl will happily run in a Swing app; Lisp Works delivers executables with a DLL; same with Allegro 16:50:54 edev: I just played a game by one lisper that was a linux64 executable. So yes very possible 16:50:57 edev: ECL produces small executables on all platforms. CLISP's runtime is quite small. 16:51:27 Admittedly the executable was 17mb 16:51:44 edev: people write desktop applications in perl, python and even visual basic... so i can't see why one wouldn't use lisp ;) 16:52:14 the excuse I hear a lot from people who otherwise really like Lisp is a certain lack of libraries 16:52:17 ehu: Lispworks has a 'good enough' cross-platform UI thingy and a tree-shaker 16:52:19 drewc: The natural next question is, well ... DO people? 16:52:21 Yes, sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die can produce executables on x86 Linux. 16:52:34 MrWGW: those people are idiots with poor excuses ;) 16:52:55 edev: some do yes. 16:53:00 And there's CommonQT, which sort-of worked last time I looked at it 16:53:15 i've used commonQT and also FFI'd to GTK+ 16:53:23 example of a simple desktop app: http://www.weitz.de/regex-coach/ 16:53:27 Lisp image dumps are big, but in this wondrous age of fast internet connections that's less of a problem 16:53:42 QT is nice in that it's acceptable on the big three platforms 16:53:54 (gtk for MacOS remains borderline unusuable) 16:54:18 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 16:54:25 Very interesting - I'll look into everything you've all said. Thank you! :) 16:54:29 If you're including Qt in the download, chances are that the Qt and binding libraries are larger than the core file anyway. 16:54:30 edev: I do. 16:54:47 (deliver on the desktop, that is) 16:54:54 ehu: Oh? How do you deploy, if I may ask? 16:55:19 Would it be better to have a function that can possibly return a list always return a list even when the result is an atom? 16:55:21 3 different applications over the last 7 years, which is quite a lot, considering it's not my job. 16:55:53 edev: two I did using Allegro, which comes with an exe, a dll and some additional files. 16:56:12 Guthur: depends on the contract of the function,doesn't it. 16:56:12 the last one is based on abcl; it comes with an exe and several jars 16:56:34 can you link against a dll as opposed to including the lib in the lisp image dump? 16:56:37 ehu: How has your experience with ABCL been? 16:56:55 MrWGW: on some implementations, yes. 16:57:15 edev: it really depends on your purpose. but for mine, it was quite good 16:57:33 ehu: Understood. Thank you! 16:57:48 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-24-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:58:27 drewc, Indeed. I'm going to ensure-list for this particular contract, it makes sense. 16:59:10 -!- PaulVan [~bubble@p54AA76A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:59:11 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0060-81-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:59:59 Though really, the whole cross-platform GUI thing is always a little unsatisfactory, everywhere 17:00:24 *drewc* notes that the browser is the platform now, for the most part 17:00:57 Well, there is that 17:01:04 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:10 with the exception of emacs, almost everything else i do takes place in the browser. If i had a Bmacs, i might never leave :) 17:01:22 Maybe browsing needs to integrated into the desktop, instead integrating the desktop into the browser 17:01:26 there's no particularly convenient way to distribute an application which must run on the user's machine but use a web interface, though, which is a shame 17:01:39 az [~az@carrot.znaider.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:40 Guthur: 'desktop' was a stupid metaphor to begin wiht 17:01:42 There would be all sorts of new exploits, such fun 17:01:59 (except HTML5 thingies on mobile phones; the manifest stuff works well, but that hardly counts) 17:02:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-036.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:02:42 Guthur: hypertext makes a lot more sense for computers than attempting to re-create a physical 'desktop'... it gets stretched quickly to be all but nonsensical 17:02:46 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:02:59 i'm looking at my desk, and there are no windows on it.... 17:03:26 drewc: You haven't receive your MS Table yet then. 17:03:34 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-206-10.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:38 received* 17:03:43 Did that ever get beyond a prototype? 17:03:47 nioe 17:03:48 nope 17:03:52 PaulVan [~bubble@p54AA422A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:02 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.85.46] has joined #lisp 17:04:03 Too expensive. 17:04:13 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-24-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:04:14 where if we look at Augment (the mother of all demos), we can see that interactive distributed networked hypertext has been around a lot longer than desktops and PC's :) 17:04:22 There may have been some special customers though. 17:04:28 good; if nothing else, I can imagine running the simulator for the Apple iTable competitor being inconvenient :) 17:04:31 Is there an easy way to convert a string of numbers to a list of numbers? "123 2 10" ---> (123 2 10) ? 17:04:38 (as it is the ipad simulator doesn't quite fit on my screen) 17:05:02 powerje: split the string on spaces and parse the numbers? 17:05:06 powerje: that is not a string of numbers 17:05:13 (there being no such thing) 17:05:38 Well yes it is a string of char but I think the meaning was clear 17:06:02 Thanks, I was hoping there was some library function to do this 17:06:33 that seems like an overly-specialised thing to have a library function for 17:06:39 minion: tell powerje about split-sequence 17:06:40 powerje: have a look at split-sequence: SPLIT-SEQUENCE (formerly known as PARTITION) is a member of the Common Lisp Utilities family of programs, designed by community consensus. http://www.cliki.net/split-sequence 17:06:43 and you can do it in a single ine, anyway 17:06:48 minion: tell powerje about parse-number 17:06:49 powerje: please look at parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 17:06:59 minion: tell powerje about gentle 17:07:00 powerje: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 17:07:17 (when ever people show a reluctance towards programming, i assume they need gentle) 17:07:54 Thanks I'll check it out 17:07:59 powerje: it would have taken less time to write such a simple function than the time it took to come here and ask about it! The library is huge, and re-writing parts of it is a rite of passage. 17:08:16 powerje: so, next time, write your own version first! 17:09:05 I did a simple one that worked only for numbers 0-9, I'm still trying to figure out string manipulation in lisp in general 17:09:17 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:10:00 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:53 powerje: once you have it working from 0-9, it's a simple matter of (REDUCE op (mapchar #'digit-char-p char)) where op = (op (m n) 17:10:53 (+ (* 10 m) n) 17:11:27 (excuse my 'where op =' syntax, been playing with functional programming again) 17:11:51 err... and s/mapchar/mapcar 17:12:05 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 17:12:18 s/char/list-of-chars 17:12:24 -!- revel0 [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 17:13:07 Stattrav [~Stattrav@123.238.45.214] has joined #lisp 17:14:23 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 17:14:54 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 17:16:04 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B201E07.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:16:23 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0060-81-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 17:17:45 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:02 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 17:19:50 aw [~aw@141.76.6.235] has joined #lisp 17:20:31 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21:20 fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has joined #lisp 17:25:40 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:28:19 drewc pasted "Does this actually work or am i missing something? at http://paste.lisp.org/display/111004 17:29:01 can i get a language lawyer to have a look please? 17:29:10 oh well, xml-rpc isn't working anymore 17:29:15 (to lisppaste) 17:29:52 lisppaste has some issues at the moment 17:30:12 thanks to spammers! 17:30:19 bastards 17:30:45 ;( 17:30:46 Lisppaste Needs You 17:31:37 Enlist at you nearest lisppaste-devel mailing list registration point. 17:32:04 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:36:07 clhs sublis 17:36:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sublis.htm 17:36:19 drewc: why not use sublis? 17:36:39 i knew it was there somewhere! 17:36:53 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:10 Ogedei [~user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #lisp 17:37:28 um, how do i kill a runaway lisp process within emacs? is there a key? 17:37:41 edev: C-c C-c in the repl usually works for me 17:37:49 otherwise, M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp 17:38:11 stassats: you know, i spent at least 30 seconds looking for SUBLIS 17:38:28 drewc: heh, thank you. 17:38:46 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:56 stassats: then i wrote it, as wasting another 30 seconds looking would be silly when it took about 25 to type it in :) 17:39:19 -!- aw [~aw@141.76.6.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:40:18 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-206-10.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 17:40:41 -!- segv [~mb@p4FC1A08C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:40:47 stassats: red herring though, what i'm really looking for is 'all macros have to be expanded before the compiler is allowed to error on (FUNCTION macro-name), or if my naive symbol substitution is going to cause any other issues i can't think of 17:41:12 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0060-81-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:42:19 stassats: and my main use-case is figuring out if a form uses FUNCTION, and therefore i need to provide it with an actual function definition instead of a macro... and i'm hoping that makes sense as well 17:42:53 *drewc* looks at sublis wondering where it's been his whole life 17:43:00 it takes a test and a test-not.... 17:43:11 is there anyone here who knows about sbcl ir1 and constraint propagation badness? 17:43:20 specifically, about "Subject: Re: [Sbcl-bugs] dlocsig: third patch, for common lisp" 17:43:40 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-35-252.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:45:45 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:45:50 What is SBCL IR* I have seen mentioned recently 17:46:36 Guthur: http://insidelisp.blogspot.com/ 17:46:58 segv [~mb@p4FC1AAA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:43 -!- cp2 [~will@89.46.33.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:48:01 oh, it's not going to be frozen anymore 17:49:00 What I don't like about the blog format is that if there is continuing theme you nearly need to read from the bottom up. 17:51:22 Guthur: drakma + cxml + http://insidelisp.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default?alt=rss + 5 minutes and the problem is solved 17:51:41 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:44 (or i'm sure there are plenty rss readers which will do that for you) 17:52:49 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 17:53:29 I'm just not that webby 17:55:48 mrTrololo [~Ark.Rost@95-55-116-87.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 17:56:28 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:56:53 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-223-150-41.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:55 Hi! Tell me please what you think about cltl3. 17:57:04 Hello all. 17:57:26 hi nyef 17:57:31 -!- PaulVan [~bubble@p54AA422A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:59:09 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:59:18 mrTrololo: i think it needs 3 months of work before it will produce anything useful, and the principles don't have that kind of time to spare. Donations welcome! 18:01:06 cp2 [~will@89.46.33.240] has joined #lisp 18:01:20 PaulVan [~bubble@p54AA422A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:44 mrTrololo: cltl3 is really just documenting CL+CFFI+iolib+bordeaux-threads+mop+sb-sequence+CDR documents, so if you're simply looking to be told what you should use, there you go. 18:02:17 drewc: forgetting cl-ppcre? 18:03:08 ah, nyef 18:03:25 ehu: lol :) 18:03:29 do you know anything about constraint propagation? (Or plan to learn it in your next sbcl spree?) 18:03:39 SLIME question: is there a way to travel back and forth in the M-. / M-, stack while preserving the changes to the point? Ie. I jump to FOO-BAR, go two lines down, move back, then move forward and it gets me to FOO-BAR + two lines down again? 18:03:58 ... Does having a book titled "Solving Geometric Constraint Systems" on my recent acquisition stack count? 18:04:05 essentially, a point stack that mirrors the M-. stack 18:04:23 nyef: ooooh 18:04:30 I know this is a crazy simple question, but.... What's the preferred way to add a character to the end of a string? 18:04:34 nyef: does it have anything about filling boxed of known area? 18:04:44 I *just* happen to have a problem like that for my thesis 18:04:50 mathrick: Seems to be more about kinematics, actually. 18:04:53 bah 18:04:58 nyef: probably not :-). The reason I ask is that an sbcl compiler infinite-time bug just got rereported on cmdist 18:05:04 moah [~gnu@dslb-188-101-029-198.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:08 Oh boy. 18:05:10 cmdist? 18:05:20 vtl [~user@r9gc231.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 18:06:33 well, in the hope one of the smart guys listens: What I need is an optimisation algorithm that lets me pick side dimensions for rectangles of known areas to fill a bigger rectangle of a known area, while preserving their relative ordering. This is for paragraph layout in my thesis, thus the need for preserving the order 18:06:42 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-84-57.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 18:06:47 edev: if the string is adjustable you can use vector-push-extent 18:07:00 edev: err, vector-push-extend 18:07:03 the problem I ran into is that x * y = A is not a linear relation, which means the known solutions don't work 18:07:20 fe[nl]ix: no wonder i was getting confused. thank you. 18:07:35 *mathrick* wonders if an ODE wouldn't be more like it 18:07:39 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:53 edev: i'd say the preferred way is to not do that, but rather create a new string. 18:08:07 edev: but if the string isn't adjustable, you can't modify the string itself. in that case you must create a new string 18:09:03 ...which brings us to the odd mutable-but-not-really status of CL strings 18:09:11 Sheesh, it's exactly this kind of thing that keeps turning me off with Lisp.... 18:09:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:09:35 asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.190] has joined #lisp 18:09:41 edev: (concatenate 'string my-string "a") 18:09:42 Actually, I think the next things on my list for SBCL are adding test-cases to the suite for some of the failures in the high-importance bug list and possibly landing wider-fixnums. 18:10:08 edev: get over yourself and trust your garbage collector 18:10:09 nyef: wider fixnums for what archs? 18:10:18 mathrick: All 64-bit targets. 18:10:30 bah, nobody loves 32-bit anymore 18:10:36 (Which, ahh, means x86-64 only.) 18:10:57 no PPC-64 target? 18:11:01 Oh, I know how to make it happen on 32-bit, but it'd be a lot hairier. 18:11:10 nyef: how wide can you get them? 18:11:14 No PPC-64 target... yet? 18:11:24 they're 29-bit on 32-bit archs atm, right? 18:11:31 63 bits on 64-bit systems, 31 bits on 32-bit systems. 18:11:37 No, they're 30 bits on 32-bit. 18:11:43 ah 18:11:47 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:11:48 edev: do you plan to conc chars systematically, like building a formatted string? 18:11:59 nyef: so basically moving to two-level tagging? Fixnum vs. everything else? 18:12:01 Really, how many SBCL devs even -have- a PPC-64 machine? 18:12:10 nyef: pffft, excuses 18:12:13 We're already -on- two-level tagging. 18:12:35 nyef: oh, so how then? 18:12:38 mathrick: Yes, excuses. I've got a pile of other stuff to do on SBCL before I start making it take better advantage of my G5. 18:12:47 Three-level tagging. 18:12:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:12:59 drewc: I'm not turned off by garbage creation - it's all the peculiarities that get me. Like why there's vector-push and vector-push extend, why there isn't one function to concatenate *whatever*, etc. Sometimes Lisp strikes me as brilliant, and sometimes it strikes me as ... quirky. 18:13:07 nyef: there was an implied :) at the end, it's not really a terribly future-proof target to be sure 18:13:16 clhs concatenate 18:13:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm 18:13:29 edev: you mean like concatenate? 18:13:33 pmd: i'm building a string from chars, yes, as an academic exercise 18:13:39 PPC-64 only makes sense if your employer happens to be a scientific lab that just bought 4096 POWER CPUs 18:14:06 Push non-cons tags out a bit, leave cons tags as they are, bring fixnum tags in a bit, and lose either instance-pointer-lowtag or function-pointer-lowtag, costing an extra header tag check for either instance typechecks or function typechecks. 18:14:25 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:14:40 nyef: so it's going to be slower in return? 18:14:48 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-61-20.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:15:00 ... Maybe? 18:15:32 It's certainly -hairier-, and there's no real way to assess the performance impact on real systems without actually doing it. 18:15:38 edev: if have lots of standardised functions to perform a wide set of operations over a well designed set of abstract data types is something that turns you off, there are lots of languages out there that lack those qualities ;) 18:16:02 having* 18:16:14 *drewc* needs more coffee 18:17:09 lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has joined #lisp 18:17:49 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:55 *ehu* lol: drewc 18:18:47 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 18:19:46 aw [~aw@p5DDA965F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:59 edev: (defun concatenate-as-string (&rest args) (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (mapc #'princ args))) <--- is that what you want? 18:20:04 drewc: Something about Lisp's organization just *bugs* me, and I'm sure it's just the learning curve and the fact that it's so different from languages I'm used to. And I have yet to find a simple reference. 18:20:04 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-152.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:20:54 drewc: So many parts of what you just wrote are foreign to me that I have no idea - and what I'm writing, I'm writing for the sake of learning anyway. But thank you. 18:21:33 edev: learn to use CLHS, it's your best friend. More than in any other language, the spec is the first to ask every time you have a question 18:22:04 but it's true that some names and concepts are not necessarily intuitive if you're used to something else, so asking here is generally not a bad idea, *after* you've checked in CLHS :) 18:22:12 mathrick: I have tried and keep trying - I must be missing the genius of CLHS, because I keep wishing it were more like javadoc. 18:22:20 edev: why are you practicing writing things in a language you do not yet know? Much better to work through a good book than to try and make it up as you go along... you're likely developing bad habits along the way. 18:22:39 edev: personally I find javadoc rather annoying and indirect 18:23:19 edev: then you should use with-output-to-string, or an adjustable 1-dimensional array with a fill-pointer 18:23:23 drewc: i'm half way through Practical Common Lisp and feel as though the concepts have buzzed by without sinking in, so I'm trying to get some exercise with them 18:23:31 really, how would you do it in C or Java? 18:23:54 edev: that's a sound plan 18:24:21 can't git clone http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.git 18:24:31 edev: but don't be afraid to go through it again once you've done the first pass; learning very different languages often benefits from re-reading with hindsight 18:25:01 edev: well, there is a chapter on FORMAT in pcl.. more than enough to derive this : 18:25:10 (defun concatenate-as-string (&rest args) (format nil "~{~A~}" args)) 18:25:24 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:25:32 drewc: which is slow as molasses, not that it matters for most of the things you'd throw it at 18:25:48 but for the ones that need to be fast, I have a pretty optimised STRING-JOIN 18:25:57 I think it's 10000x or so faster 18:26:05 mathrick: does it work on things that are not strings? 18:26:09 no 18:26:11 ... 18:26:13 I said optimised, no? 18:26:21 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082F3ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:22 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:27:11 pmd: Been a while since I've used them, but off the top of my head, roughly... for(int i = 0; i < string.length; i++) { if(string.charAt(i) == ' ' { myList.add(curSubstring); System.out.println(curSubstring); curSubstring = "";} else curSubstring += string.charAt(i); } 18:27:12 how does it compare to the with-output-to-string or CONCATENATE 'STRING ? 18:28:09 drewc: CONCATENATE doesn't really work on characters either 18:28:19 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:28:21 is usocket at svn://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/svn/usocket/trunk usocket-svn ? 18:28:28 edev: so wait, what you want is exactly what drewc said before, not concatenating strings, right? 18:29:12 hmm wait... 18:29:33 edev: æh? That does the opposite of what you said 18:29:38 you want to collect strings separated by spaces 18:29:54 edev: i think you're trying to solve problems you have in Java and then getting upset that there is no easy way to solve them in lisp... when lisp programmers don't run into those problems at all :) 18:29:55 the system.out is just for debugging purposes, it seems 18:29:56 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082B83D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:30:29 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 18:30:50 as i've laughted about before, i really enjoy these human brain conflict management, by trying *really* hard to correlate new things with things already known 18:30:56 i've done that error myself 18:30:57 Aaaah, you're taking my Java example far to literally.... I HATE Java, and I may very well have reversed my logic in that one-liner - I'm not very used to writing entire loops on one line, especially in Java.... 18:31:04 mathrick: oh, STRING-JOIN works on characters too? 18:31:07 drewc: to be fair, I've seen at least 10 different SPLIT-* implementations, so it seems to be a common problem :) 18:31:11 asarch [~asarch@189.188.149.190] has joined #lisp 18:31:13 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755993.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:14 however, i must say it is one of the ways of learning a language, but not the best 18:31:27 drewc: no, it doesn't, though it could be made to (at some cost in speed, presumably) 18:31:32 mathrick: 'a common problem', you mean an idiom, don't you? 18:31:47 but I was just saying that it compares favourably, in that CONCATENATE doesn't work on characters at all 18:31:53 or non-sequences in general 18:31:59 lhz: I can clone asdf without problems 18:32:03 drewc: You're absolutely right that I'm writing FAR lower level code than I could with Lisp - I'm trying to practice things like elt, mashing strings, do, etc. 18:32:07 lhz: same here 18:32:11 mathrick: how does it compare to CONCATENATE wrt speed 18:32:23 And I'll be right back. 18:32:36 drewc: oh, been ages since I've measured it, but it was faster 18:32:55 edev: you can get low-level with displaced arrays. if your substrings won't be changed, you can as well just make a displaced array for each of them 18:33:00 edev: lisp is not optimised for practicing low level things, it's for developing software :) 18:33:21 oh boy, it has new optimisation warnings in the newer SBCL versions 18:33:30 edev: you'll find that using Lisp to do real things is a lot better than toy problems... kind of the opposite of most langauges ;) 18:33:32 oh.. me too, I was just being impatient :) 18:33:55 Thanks for the response. 18:34:00 edev: you should try to look at the problem and the solution in different ways than you used to in other languages 18:35:02 What are the advantages of lisp-2 over lisp-1? 18:36:15 drewc: actually it seems to be on-par with the newer SBCL's (which itself is old already) CONCATENATE 18:36:26 I probably need to take a look at the warnings it prints out 18:36:39 mrTrololo: Now, there is a question that has been debated for half a century or so. Check out CLL and various sites on the net for references and make up your own opinion. 18:36:50 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:51 it's *slightly* faster, but not enough to matter 18:37:19 edev: (let ((pos 0) (len 0) (strings '())) (dotimes (i (length string)) (cond ((= (elt string #\Space)) (push (make-array len :element-type 'character :displaced-to string :displaced-index-offset pos1) strings) (setf len 0)) (t (incf len)))) (nreverse strings)) 18:37:40 mrTrololo:  (Mu). There are advantages and disadvantages to both namespacing mechanisms. Careful not to live up to your /nick. 18:38:03 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-35-37.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:38:05 actually I think mrTrololo refers to that stupid song, am I right? 18:38:17 oh, yeah... love that guy 18:38:34 but i thought mr trololo was that face 18:38:51 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 18:38:53 Russian keeps following me wherever I go. 18:39:00 drewc: It sounds like I should stop trying to write my own problems and go back to PCL? 18:39:03 drewc: that's just 4chan added on top, because it's too obvious not to make the troll joke 18:39:23 mathrick: see, i pretend like i'm hip with the kids and their slang... but get of my lawn! 18:39:25 off* 18:39:33 edev: yeah, or maybe even Gentle : 18:39:36 edev: you should stop trying to write Java in your problems 18:39:37 minion: tell edev about Gentle 18:39:38 edev: please see Gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 18:39:57 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-25-139.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:39:57 edev: going through that book (grab a pencil and paper!) will help a lot 18:40:02 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:40:15 edev: doing problems is not bad, but please be prepared to accept that Java's solution is not necessarily (or probably even likely not) the best solution 18:41:31 drewc, mathrick: thank you both. :) 18:41:42 edev: cheers, have fun! :) 18:41:56 trying to :) 18:42:42 so anyway, is there anything to do that kind of point-stack-jumping thing with M-. I asked about before? 18:44:02 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@42.Red-217-125-2.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:47:33 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.151] has joined #lisp 18:47:55 *ehu* likes pencil & paper advice 18:50:17 *gigamonkey* wonders what minion means by "a smoother introduction to lisp programming" Smoother than what? 18:50:40 hahahaha 18:53:53 mathrick: for your paragraph problem, have you tried a straightforward integer programming formulation? 18:53:56 -!- sepult` [~user@cable-195-14-196-122.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:54:38 -!- toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: toast`] 18:55:03 pkhuong: sort-of. I don't have much of a clue about integer programming, so I consulted with our faculty's linear programming guy, and he basically said "that x*y thing there is really bad" 18:55:39 x*y? You're doing 2d placement? 18:55:57 pkhuong: yes, and with variable sizes 18:56:07 lemme write up a more coherent description of the problem 18:56:50 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:58:24 That's likely to hurt, true. I thought you only needed 1D placement on pages. 19:00:33 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:03:28 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:57 milanj [~milanj_@109.93.92.72] has joined #lisp 19:11:15 -!- mrTrololo [~Ark.Rost@95-55-116-87.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has left #lisp 19:11:21 how would you initialize the elements of a vector with the results of a constructor function? something like (coerce (loop repeat 10 collect (funcall #'func)) 'vector), only neater? 19:12:29 ... I might start by checking to see if FOR ACROSS uses mutable elements. 19:13:11 But, really, I'd make the vector, then loop across either its elements or the indices of its elements and do a quick setf. 19:13:24 rootzlevel: I don't think there's any particularly cleaner way than looping over the indices of the vector. 19:14:51 rootzlevel: (map-into (make-array 10) #'func) 19:15:04 uh-oh, did we lose lisppaste completely? 19:15:04 this works? 19:15:24 pkhuong: nice. 19:15:40 and there's a real captcha now? 19:15:45 damn spammers 19:16:00 pkhuong: exactly what i was looking for, thanks 19:17:04 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:20:02 mathrick: Yeah, actually I need to write another email to lisppaste-devel today to summarize some of the technical suggestions for what to do... Or you can read it from the logs from the 29th. 19:20:36 mrTrololo [~Ark.Rost@95-55-116-87.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:22:03 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 19:23:02 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-35-252.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:27:02 Good gravy! Java has become even *more* of a horrible mess since I last used it. 19:28:37 And to think that Java programmers used to complain that Lisp's macros would make code hard to understand. 19:28:51 Is there a restriction on using keywords as (local) function/macro names? Is it defined? 19:28:55 Java programmers know about Lisp? 19:28:55 alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 19:29:14 araujo: well, the ones I used to work with did (sort of). 19:29:18 does anyone know what the term is for the kind of type-inference one can do on CL or JavaScript? (i.e. where the language doesn't cooperate very much, and untypable programs are still valid) 19:30:20 Ogedei: I don't think there's any widely accepted term (or that the very idea is itself widely accepted). I think Riastradh likes to use type reconstruction, and I'm a fan of that one too. 19:30:51 drewc: don't think there's any problem, no. 19:31:14 pkhuong: thanks, I'll start searching with that (can you recommend any good papers/write-ups?) 19:32:21 Ogedei: I believe that the python compiler for CMU common lisp does this, so you might look at some of the papers about it. 19:32:22 pkhuong: i can't find anything in the spec, and it works everywhere i've tried, but you never know :) 19:32:42 Though they probably touch on it only at a high level, not going into many details. 19:33:30 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA8359.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:34:13 I've *really* started to hate ACM now that I don't work at a university anymore 19:34:27 Ogedei: Baker's paper on the Nimble type inferencer for TI Lisp 84(?) and its references, e.g. Kaplan Ullman? 19:34:53 Ogedei: get a shell on some forgotten, unused machine (: 19:35:38 pkhuong, nyef: thanks for the suggestions! 19:36:48 The basic idea, of course, is simple enough that you could probably re-derive what you need for implementation just from your opening question about what term to use. 19:37:50 nyef: I have an implementation for JavaScript, but I'm having trouble handling cyclic type constraints 19:38:08 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:38:17 Ogedei: abstract interpretation provides a nice, well-understood, framework for that sort of analyses. 19:38:37 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:38:51 sepult [~user@cable-195-14-196-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:16 That'll give you the tools to finitely (or even reasonably) handle loops. 19:39:46 *gigamonkey* just had to send a heated email to some of his former Java-programming, Lisp-dubious co-workers. 19:39:50 Ogedei: "Strong Static Type Checking for Functional Common Lisp" (Akers, 93) has a chapter devoted to previous works that should contain lots of references that might be of interest 19:39:50 19:40:05 pkhuong: that's a term that keeps coming up. I guess I'll have to finally find out what it actually means 19:40:06 pkhuong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/111007 19:40:10 does that make any sense? 19:40:11 drewc: thanks! 19:40:17 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Quit: alinp] 19:41:12 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755993.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:51 sellout [~greg@70-91-193-41-BusName-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:13 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:39 drewc: I think symbols in the KEYWORD package are not defined to have any fixed semantics besides having the value cell equal to themselves and their auto-instantiation. Which'd make it a bit of an undefined behaviour 19:42:53 That Akers 93 link looks like it's related to ACL 19:43:31 gigamonkey: The point being that you have to learn the application domain anyway, and macros allow you to not have to keep the mapping from the application domain to your programming language swapped in at all times? 19:44:23 Ah, see the Nqthm reference 19:44:27 mathrick: symbols can be used as functions names.. that is well defined. 19:45:36 gigamonkey: that complaint by Java dudes always makes me laugh. Especially right after they start instantiating AbstractFactoryTypeDispatcherImpl 19:45:47 mathrick: It's one of those cases where you can do it on a local scale, so long as it gets compiled out, but if you do it globally it opens the door for -everyone- to do it globally, thus is more of a social constraint than a technical constraint. 19:45:58 (Keywords-as-functions, that is.) 19:46:07 drewc: hmm, I guess you're right 19:46:15 nyef: exactly 19:46:23 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 19:46:28 mathrick: it's way worse than that, these days. I'm looking at code that uses annotations to trigger transformers that twiddle the bytecode of your methods. 19:46:36 oh yes, that's fun too 19:46:40 and type erasure 19:46:45 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has left #lisp 19:46:56 My friends used to complain about macros since you "couldn't tell what the code was going to do by looking at it" 19:46:56 calling Java simple is dark humour at best these days 19:47:04 but it sure is as inflexible as it ever was 19:47:05 Is anyone else having a test failure with SB-BSD-SOCKETS-TEST::INET-SOCKET-BIND ? 19:47:10 Jeeesh. 19:47:37 *mathrick* is still scarred by touching it briefly during Android learning. Absolutely no closures whatsoever, or function pointers, how on earth does that make anything simple!? 19:47:41 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:00 gigamonkey: yeah, and finding the entry point in a Java app is so much easier 19:48:13 me4 [~opera@091-141-102-114.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 19:48:53 not to mention that (with-retry-restart ...) is so much less readable than its expansion with two-level intertwined CATCH/THROW 19:49:32 of course, there's always dwim.hu to prove you can write arbitrarily complex and opaque macros :) 19:49:38 mathrick: heh? Objects and anonymous inner classes. 19:49:47 pkhuong: exactly 19:50:08 they have no function other than faking what Java omits in a maximally verbose and unwieldy way 19:50:13 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B201E07.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:50:45 there's NO situation in which you think "gee, I sure wish I could make an object of an unnamed class" if you have closures 19:51:09 well, almost no situation, I guess you could come up with some if you really tried 19:51:43 *Guthur* never wants to be stuck without closures again 19:51:48 I'll take anonymous inner classes over only C-style function pointers any day. 19:52:06 pkhuong: good luck with your final local variables 19:52:39 though you can transform that to objects of a local (non-anonymous) type, it's just stupid and you shouldn't need to do it by hand 19:53:13 that's orthogonal to the anonymity of the inner class. 19:53:20 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:42 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 19:54:58 pkhuong: also, had a time to look at that writeup? 19:55:04 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@123.238.45.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:55:06 yes, and no bright idea. 19:55:10 I'm very interested if you have any ideas how to optimise it 19:55:11 oh :( 19:55:23 -!- lvillani [~lvillani@fedora/lvillani] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:56:05 pkhuong: any ideas at least on any kind of papers/research that might deal with this kind of problems? 19:56:49 not without further research. 19:57:13 pkhuong: also, is the explanation clear enough that I might throw it at other people without fear it'll confuse them greatly? 19:58:07 specifying the amount of lookahead allowed would be good. 19:58:39 pkhuong: ah, it's unbounded, but effectively very small, because the page is finite 19:58:47 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:58:50 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:59:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:01:20 So, you're telling me that if I have a paragraph that doesn't fill the whole width of the page, the rest of the text can only go in the strip to the right of that paragraph? 20:01:31 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.85.46] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:02:57 -!- spec`away is now known as mrSpec 20:03:02 pkhuong: http://sei.meidokon.net/files/02_block_progression.svg <-- look at #4 20:03:31 -!- me4 [~opera@091-141-102-114.dyn.orange.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:03:41 not the case I'm interested in. 20:03:53 What if there was space below 3? 20:04:02 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B2014E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:45 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:52 pkhuong: I mean that #4 couldn't be, say, taller than #3 20:05:21 but it's allowed to be shorter, but if so, then #5 would have to fit completely below it (or be split into two) 20:07:16 pkhuong: well, or you could leave some free space, but that's unsightly and causes negative score 20:07:31 so if it's flush on the left, and above it we have two vertical paragraphs side by side, which is the immediate predecessor? 20:07:53 the rightmost one 20:08:04 (I'm trying to see how much state you'd have to represent for a dynamic programming solver) 20:08:39 pkhuong: it's read in the English order, that is lines are read from left to right, and stacked from top to bottom 20:09:07 -!- mrTrololo [~Ark.Rost@95-55-116-87.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 20:09:22 IIUC, you really don't want to allow things like two paragraphs side by side with the rightmost parargraph slightly taller than the leftmost (that'd be weird) 20:09:48 pkhuong: no, it's very much not allowed 20:09:58 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:11:13 and since you have a total order on the paragraphs, that's telling me there's only ever two choices to examine for each paragraph: whether to put it to the right of the previous paragraph, or to start a fresh strip flush to the left of the page, 20:12:15 You seem to be forbidding layouts like ''|, through, with 1 horizontal paragraph right to the left of a vertical one. 20:12:17 pkhuong: or you could put it below an existing paragraph, if it's inside a strip and doesn't take its full height 20:12:32 that'd be |= in your notation 20:13:33 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:13:38 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:14:32 -!- sellout [~greg@70-91-193-41-BusName-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 20:14:56 pkhuong: but yes, basically you're starting in a position flush left, or are inside a strip and then have one dimension capped. Strips can be either horizontal, like this: , or vertical 20:15:00 hold on, brb 20:17:21 actually. It seems to me you want to pack things greedily. As soon as you place one paragraph, you'll want to pack as many of the remaining pragraphs in the newly created strip? 20:18:16 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.73.232.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 20:20:42 Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-49-248.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:22:54 rmarynch [~roman@bras-4-ge-62.122.200.230.utm.if.ua] has joined #lisp 20:22:55 -!- vtl [~user@r9gc231.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:02 -!- rmarynch [~roman@bras-4-ge-62.122.200.230.utm.if.ua] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:43 rmarynch [~roman@bras-4-ge-62.122.200.230.utm.if.ua] has joined #lisp 20:25:23 Hello. Krystof, which bug about constraint propagation you are referring to? I am not subscribed to sbcl-bugs 20:25:23 rmarynch, memo from p_l: You might want to look through efforts of Haskell community, where there are few libraries that integrate GPGPU computing into language 20:26:19 xan_ [~xan@83.40.117.40] has joined #lisp 20:27:04 maybe I can try my skills and fix it 20:27:57 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:28:48 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:29:16 k. 20:29:22 (wrong window) 20:29:33 pkhuong: except that I want to make the best-looking layout, which depends on the individual paragraphs' shapes 20:29:58 pkhuong: also I came up with a bit clearer (I think) description of stripes 20:31:02 basically, you're always inside a stripe, with the whole page being essentially a vertical stripe (because full-width paragraphs are placed from top to bottom) 20:31:08 -!- edev [~user@adsl-99-23-150-121.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting.] 20:31:20 kpreid__ [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@c-67-180-21-133.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:22 -!- kpreid__ is now known as kpreid 20:31:31 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:29 each time you place a paragraph, you can either: 1) fill out the whole width (for a vertical stripe) you're given or 2) start a new, horizontal stripe, in which the constraints are reversed 20:32:35 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.222] has joined #lisp 20:33:02 and inside each substrip you can again start a new substrip, changing the direction every time, until you reach the maximum depth 20:33:32 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-201.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:36 and you have to fill out the current maximally-nested substrip completely before you're allowed to allocate space from its parent strip 20:33:46 C-Keen [ckeen@pestilenz.org] has joined #lisp 20:34:26 and each strip limits the total height (for vertical ones) / width (for horizontal) of everything allocated within it 20:34:41 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:34:49 this way, the area you allocate from is always a rectangle, and you have to place your new paragraph in the top-left corner 20:35:00 pkhuong: does that make any sense to you? 20:35:07 yup. 20:35:31 good, I'm relieved :) 20:35:59 rmarynch: http://paste.lisp.org/display/111013 20:36:47 rmarynch: that's a regalloc bug, fwiwi. 20:37:35 looks seriously :) Do we have something similar in Launchpad already? 20:39:27 I also know that current regression tests may hang on Linux x86-64. Does anybody see the same as here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/578391 20:39:38 ? 20:40:06 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.163.216.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:40:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #lisp 20:40:49 oh, so it is a regalloc bug 20:40:51 duh 20:40:57 I should learn to read 20:41:08 ":LOCAL-TN-COUNT 63" That's fishy. 20:41:30 has anyone admired my l33t texinfo hacking skills? 20:41:45 This bag is a bit far from IR1, I guess? 20:41:49 &bug 20:41:58 yes, sorry to have misled you 20:42:23 in the SBCL manual's indexes, would people prefer to have debugger commands mixed in with functions, or separate? 20:42:37 and the same question, but for declaration identifiers? 20:43:19 pkhuong: does that lead anywhere in the dynamic programming? I have very slight idea about optimisation, so any kind of pointer (such as which of {integer, linear, dynamic} programming to look at) is appreciated 20:43:26 Krystof: "(def!constant local-tn-limit 64)" in vop.lisp... Things are *supposed* to work anyway, but I don't know how often these codepaths are exercised. 20:43:53 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:44:45 mathrick: dynamic programming is just memoisation. You want to minimise the amount of state you keep around to maximise reuse in your depth-first search. (Or, you can build the memoisation table bottom up to avoid recursion while risking performing a lot of useless work) 20:44:55 netytan [~netytan@85.211.16.208] has joined #lisp 20:45:00 Krystof: when I'm debugging, I want an organization by functionality in the debugger, not by the method of access 20:45:13 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:17 kpreid: there's body text for that 20:45:24 and a concept index 20:45:26 ah, indexes 20:45:31 sorry, I misread the question 20:45:47 probably no-one has ever looked at the indexes other than me 20:45:57 to be fair, they are spectacularly useless 20:46:02 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:22 almost all the operators indexed under "S"... 20:46:30 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:48:04 -!- xan_ [~xan@83.40.117.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:48:39 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:51:04 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 20:53:02 pkhuong: I'm thinking I might want to look into ODEs and how the physics solvers do this 20:53:56 Whoa, what? There's an x86-64/linux system out there that doesn't run the test suite to completion? 20:54:58 nyef: Yep, I have such at home :) 20:55:14 nyef: Is that the same suite that's run on compile? 20:55:21 That is... disconcerting, to say the least. 20:55:39 Guthur: (cd tests && sh ./run-tests.sh) 20:55:53 -!- ri4a [~ri4a@2002:d45b:fb92::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:56:16 It still fails on sb-concurrency for me on compile, but that's a known issue. 20:56:29 maybe I have done something wrong... But I still see this issue with 1.0.38 20:56:52 With 1.0.39 I will check tomorrow or later this week 20:57:06 Hunh. I get the CPU load from hell when the sb-concurrency tests run, and I've started (as of less than a week ago, for no known reason) getting a test failure on sb-bsd-sockets, but everything else seems okay here. 20:57:21 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:57:39 nyef: You use x86-64 Linux to test? 20:58:17 Yeah. I have an x86-64 and a ppc system that I've been testing on regularly, and there's an x86 system around here that I test on not-so-regularly. 20:59:14 I am inclined to think that I did the test wrong... I also cannot believe that it failed 20:59:57 In case you and others do not observe this, we should close the ticket 21:00:16 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.73.232.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: asdf] 21:01:46 nyef: Do you use clbuild? 21:03:15 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-71.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:05:17 -!- rmarynch [~roman@bras-4-ge-62.122.200.230.utm.if.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:05:35 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:06:50 ri4a_ [~ri4a@birne.imaginat.de] has joined #lisp 21:07:36 -!- Ogedei [~user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:08:26 duckinator [~nick@botters/staff/duckinator] has joined #lisp 21:08:31 hi Guthur ;) 21:08:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-210.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:09:39 Yo duckinator 21:09:43 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755993.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:58 Which implementation are you using for your bot 21:10:06 CL implementation* 21:11:11 Guthur: Not if I can help it. 21:11:19 Guthur: sbcl, nixeagle got me set up with emacs+slime :P 21:11:34 duckinator, Oh then you are setup nicely 21:11:41 mhm :) 21:11:45 I would recommend clbuild 21:12:00 though that's what nyef was just talking about 21:12:39 It's ok when you work with it, when you try to go against it things quickly fall apart at the seams 21:13:21 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:13:21 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 21:13:28 *nixeagle* waves at duckinator :) 21:13:39 hi nixeagle :P 21:13:47 you found my hideout 21:13:49 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:55 yup :P 21:14:16 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:15:04 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:00 sellout [~greg@70-91-193-41-BusName-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:30 cisticola [~daddy@202.134.251.153] has joined #lisp 21:17:01 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:56 -!- galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:54 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:21:02 -!- ri4a_ [~ri4a@birne.imaginat.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:24:50 ri4a [~ri4a@2002:d45b:fb92::1] has joined #lisp 21:26:03 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:26:35 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:20 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:28:21 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:28:31 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:28:42 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:29:04 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA8359.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:30:34 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 21:33:53 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:20 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@24.40.129.225] has joined #lisp 21:39:09 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 21:42:19 drewc: where does the latest ucw project live? 21:43:23 -!- PaulVan [~bubble@p54AA422A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:30 when i try to load it from the common-lisp.net repo, i get "The function ASDF::OUTPUT-FILES-USING-MAPPINGS is undefined." 21:44:01 oh, i see the trouble. 21:44:19 toast` [~toast`@c-71-227-233-160.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:08 -!- ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:45:21 Xach: oh good, because i have no idea what that error would be about :) 21:45:58 drewc: from hu.dwim.slime's swank.asd 21:46:01 i need the real swank.asd 21:47:47 *Xach* is working on his yet-another-clbuild/lispy/cl-librarian/libcl/etc project 21:48:33 ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:37 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:48:46 xan_ [~xan@83.40.117.40] has joined #lisp 21:48:47 sundaysatan [~sundaysat@c-65-96-217-93.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:02 Xach: Has it got a better name? 21:49:07 I think so. 21:49:14 Well I'm sold 21:49:38 is there a more explicit function for removing a single entry from an alist than remove-if? 21:50:04 mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:50:10 well, remove by key, not remove given the original cons 21:51:30 Xach: what's your take on it? 21:51:49 is lambda a built in procedure in lisp? 21:51:58 *drewc* did one of those at one point too 21:52:48 sundaysatan: yes 21:53:00 sundaysatan: lambda is not a procedure by any reasonable definition of the word, but the short answer is yes :) 21:53:12 drewc: everything available via http, index files with statically listed dependencies, no project tarball ever deleted (so you can go back in time to something that worked right for you), highly available, extremely easy to bootstrap, works on more than just Linux, and much, much more. (actual features may vary by the time i finish or give up) 21:53:31 what is it? 21:53:45 sundaysatan: it's a primitive 21:53:53 it's a special form 21:54:00 or rather special operator 21:54:21 CLHS calls it a macro 21:54:43 Phoodus: LAMBDA is a macro, FUNCTION is the special form 21:54:48 which expands into a FUNCTIOn special form 21:55:12 the fact that it's a macro is a bit of an extra complexity a newbie doesn't need to care about until they start writing macros 21:55:38 but (lambda ...) is also valid in the car of a form that will be evaluated, in which case it's a function name 21:55:39 while I agree with you, "what is it?" does ask for internals :) 21:56:00 hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.151] has joined #lisp 21:56:04 in fact, 'what is lambda' is a pretty deep question that does not have a short answer :) 21:56:22 ahah 21:56:44 sundaysatan: From source code, #'myfunc expands to (function 'myfunc) 21:56:49 Ya it has intrigued me, I find it interesting that its macro 21:56:55 it's* 21:56:56 Phoodus: not true 21:56:57 Phoodus: no it doesn't 21:57:03 Phoodus: (function myfunc) 21:57:09 erm, yeah 21:57:25 as function is a special form and doesn't evaluate it 21:57:53 and (lambda (x) (foo x)) expands to (function (lambda (x) (foo x))) (correct me if I'm wrong) 21:58:00 correct 21:58:05 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 21:58:19 (define dothis (lambda (x) (* x x))) 21:58:21 hmm... trying to use mcclim-freetype keeps hanging in sb-alien::dlopen /.../freetype.6.dylib 21:58:23 right/. 21:58:25 ? 21:58:38 when making a function call, either from funcall/apply, or simply as the first item of an eval'd list, everything generally gets reduced down to something compatible with what FUNCTION returns 21:58:54 sundaysatan: that's not lisp 21:59:08 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@24.40.129.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:59:09 -!- hadronzoo_ is now known as hadronzoo 21:59:12 sundaysatan: try #scheme. the fundamental language is completely different 22:00:15 so lisp doesn't work that way though? 22:00:23 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 22:00:27 we're describing how lisp works 22:00:42 but if you're using scheme, there are differences 22:00:56 oh ok 22:01:01 (actually we're not describing lisp, but common lisp) 22:01:14 so what's lisp... 22:01:15 hah 22:01:26 Lisp is a family of languages which include Common Lisp, and Scheme 22:01:34 and ML and Haskell and Perl 22:01:37 :) 22:01:48 Javascript maybe? 22:01:53 possibly 22:01:57 depends how you define lisp 22:02:11 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 22:02:19 right, does lisp require sexpr syntax? 22:02:47 ah you're right, it IS scheme i am learning, haha 22:02:57 lol 22:02:57 is lisp about the internal or external representation? 22:03:04 what does "sexpr" mean? 22:03:05 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 22:03:10 s-expression 22:03:11 it is about characters or structure? 22:03:13 sundaysatan, Things will be easier if you know what language you are using 22:03:42 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-194.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:46 does lisp require conversion of a list of symbols into a callable function? 22:04:39 haha, well i'm learning from MITs OCW and it said, "Scheme Basics" right next to a, "Story About Using Lisp" so i figured these "Scheme Basics" were basic schems of the langugage 22:04:42 ahah 22:04:55 schemas* 22:04:58 heh, nope, "Scheme" is the language name 22:05:04 -!- sepult [~user@cable-195-14-196-122.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:37 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-f7b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:05:41 Scheme has many superficial things in common with Common Lisp, but when you start asking about the underlying effects of functions and lambdas, they diverge quickly 22:06:10 sepult [~user@cable-195-14-196-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:06:25 -!- mejja [~user@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 22:06:30 and yes, "Common Lisp" is also the name of a concrete, specified language, not just a categorical identifier 22:07:18 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:07:20 ha yeah, cuz most of the functions tuaght use lambda for like factorials and fibonacci 22:07:26 -!- xan_ [~xan@83.40.117.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:07:35 xan_ [~xan@83.40.117.40] has joined #lisp 22:08:01 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-194.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:08:19 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:25 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:08:56 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 22:10:22 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:11:58 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 22:11:58 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 22:19:25 -!- zmyrgel [~zmyrgel@hoasnet-fe22dd00-59.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:21:06 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: good night] 22:21:45 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25:33 cl has a library for fibonacci 22:26:13 -!- sepult [~user@cable-195-14-196-122.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:28:45 dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-98-150-133-209.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:37 phoodus: where do they diverge? things like keyword arguments? tco? 22:31:08 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-98-150-133-209.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:31:15 oh, and the two namespaces. nm, i guess they diverge more than it seems at first 22:31:28 through primitives right? 22:35:51 -!- cddr [~user@5ac75e6a.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:23 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.93.92.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:36:23 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:51 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:40:11 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:18 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.151] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 22:40:31 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:42:08 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 22:43:42 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 22:43:56 milanj [~milanj_@91.150.126.146] has joined #lisp 22:50:48 sellout- [~greg@70-91-193-41-BusName-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:49 -!- sellout [~greg@70-91-193-41-BusName-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:50:52 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 22:51:14 sepult [~user@cable-195-14-196-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:51:46 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:54 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-111-226.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:53:17 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B2014E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:55:43 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-24-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:00:36 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:02:03 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:03:15 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:47 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:43 *Xach* shakes fist at Lift 23:09:08 -!- konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:10:14 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:12:15 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-195-89.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:12:45 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.193.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: ZZzzz] 23:14:03 Lone_Wanderer [~Dan@c-98-202-123-90.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:17 gigamonkeys.com appears to be down 23:15:37 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:15 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 23:18:40 Lone_Wanderer: works for me. 23:19:19 hmm 23:19:24 yay, it's up again 23:19:41 Snap, it's all HTML. 23:19:55 I was hoping to get PDFs and put them on my nook. (I also own a hard copy.) 23:20:43 I guess I could buy it again. 23:20:58 Lone_Wanderer: for a long time Apress had a PDF version available at no cost. 23:21:03 ohh 23:21:03 Lone_Wanderer: I don't know if it's still there. 23:21:46 It doesn't appear to be. 23:22:16 Not a huge deal. 23:22:37 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.16.208] has quit [Quit: netytan] 23:26:48 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:05 -!- aw [~aw@p5DDA965F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30:34 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:39 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-24-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:33:23 -!- Lone_Wanderer [~Dan@c-98-202-123-90.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:33:37 -!- jacobian [~jacobian@89.124.152.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:33:56 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:35:27 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:37:02 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:37:10 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:44 hi 23:39:22 [offtopic]: given 2 ranges of integers, defined by it boundaries 23:39:35 ¿how can i know if the intersection is the empty set? 23:42:00 marioxcc: easy: (empty-set-p (range-intersection r1 r2)) 23:42:43 marioxcc: or rather: (empty-set-p (range-intersection (make-range min1 max1) (make-range min2 max2))) 23:42:43 oh yes :) 23:43:29 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DECE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:43:31 ty 23:43:33 thanks you 23:44:14 marioxcc: otherwise, (or (< max1 min2) (< max2 min1)) should do. 23:45:01 ¿sure? 23:45:09 Do drawings! 23:45:13 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:45:30 let's see, hmm... 23:46:09 *Xach* has often found drawings useful 23:48:20 should I sleep, or should I continue reading LinJ's code where I'm finally making some progress? 23:48:58 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:06 vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:49 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:52:04 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:53:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:54:03 konr [~user@201.82.129.247] has joined #lisp 23:57:53 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:02 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-8-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: vmmenon]