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00:45:14 <cisticola> cxml is not playing nice with asdf, asdf:defsystem looks as if it type checks its arguments and not what they resolve to. cxml.asd supplies an expression as an argument.
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00:48:53 <cisticola> loading cxml fails on clisp sbcl and cmucl, there is a cxml mailing list bug query as yet unresolved,
00:49:41 <cisticola> Is this a bug, and if so is it a asdf or cxml bug?
00:50:02 <drewc> cisticola: i find that hard to believe... i've never had problems with loading cxml, so unless this is very new (say within the last few days), i suspect something else is amiss.
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00:51:58 <madnificent> mathrick: looks like a good start :)
00:52:58 <madnificent> mathrick: at least, it's an important step.  If ecl would be able to compile applications for android, then we'd have the ingredients, no?
00:52:59 <mathrick> madnificent: aye, hopefully I can get make into a useful devel environment
00:53:00 <drewc> cisticola: and by way of confirmation, i have no problem loading the latest cxml (as of right now) into the latest (as of a few hours ago) sbcl
00:53:28 <madnificent> mathrick: I'd be glad to test and help where possible (and when I have the time)
00:53:44 <mathrick> madnificent: yeah, though not really applications. You want to stay within the confines of the JVM if your apps are to be well-behaved on android
00:54:04 <madnificent> mathrick: what are you trying to say?
00:54:04 <mathrick> madnificent: sure, that'll come in its time :)
00:54:10 <cisticola> the mailing list query, not by me, was 22may. I first tried loading cxml about the same time.
00:54:24 <mathrick> madnificent: that you'd be compiling JNI components rather than standalone applications
00:55:22 <madnificent> mathrick: and what are the implications of that?  the JNI components can call back to java code, so if our/your system would be smart enough to know what it should make accessible to JNI, then you'd be able to control everything from within CL
00:56:14 <mathrick> madnificent: yes, that's my hope too. But what I'm saying is that it needs more smarts on the DSL level, because it needs to be partitioned into components corresponding to all necessary activities
00:56:18 <madnificent> mathrick: and exposing the correct components boils down to building the correct java code (for which you're building the important parts right now)
00:56:30 <drewc> cisticola: it works with the latest and greatest, it looks like the bug report is someone trying to do it via debian packages... never a good idea
00:56:36 <madnificent> mathrick: ah yes, I understand you now
00:56:46 <drewc> cisticola: are you on debian using debian packaged libraries?
00:56:47 <madnificent> mathrick: that could be something cool de develop though :)
00:57:10 <drewc> and/or sbcl
00:57:27 <mathrick> madnificent: my pipe dream is to make it cross-platform, putting even more weight on the DSL. But we'll see how it goes
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00:57:40 <cisticola> yes cmucl and clisp
00:58:12 <madnificent> mathrick: how cross-platform?  over multiple types of phone os?
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00:58:32 <cisticola> but asdf and cxml is not
00:58:36 <drewc> cisticola: don't use debian packages for lisp related things and you won't run into such problems. Otherwise, take it up with the package mantainer, as it works 'in the wild'
00:59:23 <mathrick> madnificent: yes
00:59:32 <drewc> minion: tell cisticola about clbuild
00:59:33 <minion> cisticola: please look at clbuild: clbuild is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild
00:59:41 <mathrick> madnificent: being able to target android, pre and S60 would be nice
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00:59:52 <drewc> cisticola: use your debian-installed sbcl to build sbcl via clbuild, forget about cmucl and clisp
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01:00:12 <madnificent> mathrick: it sounds hard, but I think mvilleneuve was thinking about something similar (if not, I'll need to dig in the logs of #lispgames)
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01:01:13 <cisticola> drewc: OK, got you, clbuild will be investigated
01:01:35 <_3b`> is that one of the things that changed in asdf2 (and are you using that?)
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01:02:04 <mathrick> madnificent: oh? More info is needed
01:03:11 <cisticola> _3b`: ARRGGGHHH never noticed I will look at that as well, thanks
01:04:03 <_3b`> if you are using asdf2, that might be the problem
01:04:03 <madnificent> mathrick: don't take the following for granted, I'm not an elephant: I don't think he started on it yet, and it wasn't going to be open (perhaps if it'd be a joint venture, it would be open) and it wasn't initially going to be common lisp
01:05:35 <_3b`> cisticola: does (asdf:asdf-version) work?
01:06:10 <mathrick> madnificent: I see. Well, I dunno how exactly what I'm doing is gonna work, but I think I'll want to make it open for greater good, even though I want to make commercial apps too
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01:07:17 <madnificent> mathrick: I don't think webos works the same way as android does
01:07:41 <mathrick> I know, hence my mentions of a DSL to even things out
01:07:48 <madnificent> mathrick: however, with a decent core, it would be fairly simple to port applications between the several versions.  WebOS has an NDK too (it's called differently there) and webos is fairly hackable
01:07:57 <mathrick> webos is JS + HTML, which is covered by parenscript
01:08:33 *madnificent* still wants a pre (not nice of palm to leave us out for so long) 
01:08:43 <_3b`> drewc: just to verify, you aren't using the new asdf/asdf2 to load cxml, right?
01:08:47 <madnificent> mathrick: you'd really want to have common lisp instead of parenscript
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01:09:01 <madnificent> mathrick: but the javascript part can probably be what you do in java now
01:10:07 <mathrick> madnificent: parenscript is much more similar to CL than LinJ, which makes it easier
01:11:18 <madnificent> mathrick: wouldn't you want LinJ out of the picture (for the user of the system) in the end?
01:12:00 <drewc> _3b`: ah, indeed i am not. using whatever asdf is included with SBCL AFAIK
01:12:24 <mathrick> well, yes. But what I meant is also that it'd be much more doable to make parenscript the language you write in, because there's not as much pressure to get it out of the way
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01:13:59 <cisticola> _3b`:  yes it does, I am on 1.728 which is asdf2
01:15:02 <_3b`> cisticola: try putting #+asdf2 "xml/" #-asdf2 before that(merge-pathnames ...
01:15:27 <mathrick> madnificent: the drawbacks are not as significant, since you wouldn't be using a million CFFI-calling libs on a mobile handset anyway
01:16:37 <cisticola> _3B` OK but its going to be on cmucl because I broke sbcl
01:16:53 *_3b`* assumes the implementation doesn't matter for that
01:16:53 <madnificent> mathrick: somewhat, yes...  I find parenscript to sound like a great approach, but whenever I use it, it makes me a bit sad.
01:17:03 <mathrick> madnificent: so with a little care, you could probably compile everything down
01:17:08 <mathrick> madnificent: why so?
01:17:08 <madnificent> mathrick: it just isn't lisp.  You still have to think about how it will expand, not what you want to write.
01:17:32 <mathrick> well, yeah, but that's the life of a foreigner
01:17:41 <madnificent> mathrick: the best option for parenscript imho, is to write a lisp that would compile to/run in javascript
01:17:49 <Guthur> madnificent, It becomes easier
01:18:06 <mathrick> madnificent: that's what parenscript is. A lisp that compiles to JS
01:18:10 <madnificent> Guthur: it becomes easier, but you're still thinking in two languages... they only look the same for a large portion
01:18:18 <Guthur> I'm generally creating correctly expanding PS now more often than not.
01:18:20 *_3b`* would like a full lisp that compiled to js, or a thin sexp js... ps is currently too much in the middle, so has the weaknesses of both
01:18:21 <mathrick> one very close to CL, too
01:18:23 <madnificent> Guthur: I'm not claiming that parenscript isn't a great thing to have though!
01:18:45 <Guthur> The PS guys are actively developing it
01:19:03 <_3b`> mathrick: not close enough (though i understand that is the goal, so presumably it will get better)
01:19:04 <madnificent> mathrick: I had a design document for that laying around somewhere (real writing on real paper though)
01:19:20 <Guthur> And from the mailing list there seems to soundings of moving more towards what _3b` mentioned of a PS compiling to JS
01:19:25 <madnificent> Guthur: another thing! ps changes quite often.  It's good that it evolves though..
01:19:27 *_3b`* wonders what happened to that guy who did a CL-in-js for school
01:19:35 <Guthur> And the PS being more CL like
01:19:45 <madnificent> ps is just a tough nut to crack imho.  It isn't CL, and if I'd need to do a lot of stuff, I'd prefer CL.
01:19:48 <mathrick> madnificent: for a CL on JS implementation?
01:19:53 <madnificent> _3b`: any name, maybe?
01:20:13 <madnificent> mathrick: in a longer sentence that question would become, what?
01:20:44 <mathrick> madnificent: the design documents you have, what are they for?
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01:21:41 <madnificent> mathrick: ah, for CL within JS.  In short:  you have a small core that evals, a small core that allows to call native JS functions, and a system to fetch lisp components from the server.  In that way you don't make the browser first load 5Mb of source JS before the site can start running.
01:22:13 <madnificent> mathrick: it would also allow for libs to be cached on the client's side
01:22:37 <madnificent> but it would require a CL to be written mainly in CL... which is a lot of work I guess
01:22:42 <madnificent> the whole thing would be a lot of work anyways
01:23:11 <mathrick> madnificent: hmm, what about compiling down to JS, rather than running in JS?
01:23:24 <mathrick> aka more ECL style than ABCL style
01:24:35 <madnificent> mathrick: it sounds hard to do too...  Having a core written in CL would only make it easier though.  Also, I'd like to have eval support in the browser.
01:24:50 <madnificent> mathrick: essentially, yes.  But still a lot of work
01:25:09 <madnificent> CL is a complex beast
01:25:24 <mathrick> madnificent: well, depends on what you want to use it for. 5MB of JS doesn't sound fun in almost any scenario, really
01:26:04 <madnificent> mathrick: by splitting it up in components, you should never reach that amount (far from that amount even)
01:26:14 <madnificent> mathrick: perhaps a hybrid approach?
01:26:18 <adeht> just have a flash-like (Clash?) plugin :d
01:26:28 <mathrick> adeht: somebody made it actually
01:26:34 <mathrick> though for FF only, IIRC
01:27:00 <mathrick> madnificent: well then you run into the on-demand loading thing, which is not very feasible either
01:27:00 <madnificent> mathrick: the benefit of that is that you don't need to load everything you want the user to execute.  It will be loaded on demand.  Thus allowing you to require a whole bunch of huge libs, and only send the relevant parts to the client
01:27:05 <adeht> also, doesn't 3b work on Flash-based Lisp?
01:27:06 <drewc> why not use CL on the server, and JS in the browser? works for me.
01:27:17 <madnificent> adeht: yup, that's working even (I think)
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01:27:40 <drewc> seems like a cl->js compiler adds a lot of complexity for very little gain.
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01:28:02 <madnificent> drewc: because if you want to develop WebOS applications in Common Lisp, then you don't want to have javascript (as it's not CL)
01:28:20 <madnificent> especially not if you want to cross-compile between android and webos
01:28:28 <drewc> this doesn't mean you need CL in the browser
01:28:47 <drewc> GWT doesn't put Java in the browser
01:28:55 <mathrick> madnificent: webos is not a browser, really
01:28:59 <madnificent> it doesn't mean you need it, I would _like_ it
01:29:07 <madnificent> mathrick: no, but it is javascript which powers the applications :)
01:29:44 <mathrick> doesn't mean I want my apps break because the user has gone out of range before they happened to hit the on-deman-loaded part
01:30:06 <sepult> what kind of language is opera written in ?
01:30:24 <adeht> C++
01:30:46 <sepult> doesit use some javascript or so ?
01:31:02 <sepult> it's very fast here even in a vm
01:31:03 <madnificent> mathrick: actually, I figured that one out.  By running an application you could see which parts it requires (preferably over multiple users) and send all that data to them.  That would make it fairly complete.  Or the whole thing if you'd want.  If you can send content, you can send w/e you need them to know.
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01:31:29 <adeht> sepult: it has a javascript vm
01:31:33 <sepult> ah
01:31:36 <sepult> ok
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01:32:22 <madnificent> mathrick: also: for webos that (range) is not a problem, as you'll supply the full app to them.  For regular websites it's quite common (but html5 offers solutions)
01:32:57 <mathrick> madnificent: I still don't think a CL in JS is needed or even beneficial. You don't need the whole CL with all its interactive, REPL-y glory to deploy an app
01:33:06 <adeht> sepult: http://my.opera.com/core/blog/2009/02/04/carakan
01:33:34 <mathrick> madnificent: for regular webapps yes, but it'd be rather ridiculous to implement AJAXy bits by embedding a full CL in the browser
01:34:05 <madnificent> mathrick: no you don't, but it would be nice to have for regular web apps and I think it would be good for WebOS too
01:34:09 <mathrick> not to mention readability and debugging
01:35:01 <madnificent> it would be easier to debug, you'd have the whole thing there to debug.  Compiling to JS makes it harder to debug, I think. (it's hard to debug what you just wrote down, as the JS is not what you actually wrote down)
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01:37:39 <madnificent> mathrick: anyways, it would be great to have android support ;)  That'd be a great step forward
01:38:01 <mathrick> hopefully
01:38:25 <mathrick> madnificent: but re: debugging, that's only assuming the CL implementation is perfect and absolutely portable between engines
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01:38:42 <mathrick> which is unlike to be the case in practice
01:38:54 <p_l> btw, you can run ECL (and not only ECL) in Chrome
01:38:55 <mathrick> and debugging second-order code is nigh impossible
01:39:08 <mathrick> p_l: howso? That silly native something plugin?
01:39:12 <p_l> though porting SBCL might be a little hard :P
01:39:16 <p_l> NaCL
01:39:25 <p_l> *NaCl
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01:40:51 <adeht> <script type="antitext/common-lisp"> ...
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01:42:00 <adeht> does Closure support that? :)
01:42:11 <Rolexde> www.motherless.com
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01:42:47 <madnificent> adeht: type="sexp/common-lisp" maybe?
01:43:12 <adeht> sexy/common-lisp for reader macros support
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01:44:06 <dmiles_afk> there is a Cl->JS out there?
01:44:17 <dmiles_afk> there is a CL->JS out there? that would be nice
01:44:29 <madnificent> dmiles_afk: I think we only have PS for now
01:45:20 <nus> @minion parenscript?
01:45:23 *dmiles_afk* looking at scroolback for what P is
01:45:25 <nus> eh,
01:45:28 <nus> minion, parenscript?
01:45:29 <minion> parenscript: Parenscript is a translator from an extended subset of Common Lisp to JavaScript. http://www.cliki.net/parenscript
01:46:19 <nus> anybody using mozrepl?
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01:46:36 <dmiles_afk> damng that is awespome.. one can target any back end maybe.. even java
01:47:11 <dmiles_afk> (besides javscript)
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01:47:37 <nus> the awe wears off when you find the target VM lacking necessary operations.
01:48:11 <madnificent> and parenscript not being so common lisp after all
01:48:12 <dmiles_afk> well you still probly have to write 1/2 the lisp built in objects
01:48:47 <dmiles_afk> ah
01:49:17 <dmiles_afk> larkc Lisp->Java is still closed source
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01:49:33 <madnificent> dmiles_afk: don't get your hopes down though, it may be a good base to start from :)
01:49:50 <dmiles_afk> and tryin to opensource it is like very hard to figure otu how to surgically extract it w/o taking the rest of the system to
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01:50:56 <dmiles_afk> well i have a secret agenda ... to take the class emitter of ABCL.. and make it print to a set of AST objects.. then have those AST objects print java
01:51:28 <dmiles_afk> or whatever output language one wants
01:51:50 <madnificent> does ABCL have a class emitter?
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01:52:09 <dmiles_afk> madnificent: yeah. its not bad
01:52:18 <madnificent> cool, I didn't know that
01:52:23 <dmiles_afk> they call it the compiler
01:52:37 <dmiles_afk> makes .class files named .cls
01:52:40 <madnificent> doesn't abcl compile to bytecode directly?
01:52:58 <madnificent> (so no java source class files)
01:53:02 <dmiles_afk> right the bytecode is the class emitter
01:53:32 <madnificent> oh right, and you want to go from bytecode back to java
01:53:33 <dmiles_afk> i was being confusing saying that ;)
01:53:39 <dmiles_afk> yes
01:53:55 <dmiles_afk> then to any langyuage
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01:54:28 <dmiles_afk> so i was going to instead of emitting bytecode (classes) emit a language thart can be converted to java/javascript/c/c++ etc
01:54:48 <dmiles_afk> i was saying actualyl ABCL gets us closewr than PS
01:55:02 <dmiles_afk> i was saying actualyl ABCL gets us closer than PS.. by doing it that way
01:56:05 <dmiles_afk> sincejava bytecode is just a straight forward programming language .. and when its not the ABCL class emitter can be made to emit straight forward stuff
01:56:28 <dmiles_afk> sincejava bytecode is just a straight forward programming language .. and when its not,  the ABCL class emitter can be made to emit straight forward stuff into something clean
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01:57:12 <dmiles_afk> oh but doing this.. the point?
01:57:22 <_3b`> ah, found it... i think http://sourceforge.net/projects/acheron/ is the lisp->js thing i was thinking about
01:57:34 <dmiles_afk> the point is to make the compiler easier to work on
01:58:13 <dmiles_afk> going for a gnereric infrastructure for  compilation... going in.. and then targeting output
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01:58:53 <dmiles_afk> so from "jimple" (aka bytecode) to JS/C etc
01:59:15 <dmiles_afk> can target .NET / Parrot etc
01:59:59 <dmiles_afk> but then getting to that IR the stuff i think ABCL does pretty well .. also should be able to be imporoved
02:00:10 <madnificent> dmiles_afk: how about: you code CL in CL, based on the least amount of base constructors which you think you need
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02:00:29 <madnificent> dmiles_afk: then you replace those base constructs by those of the target language, and boom, you have lisp in that language
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02:00:51 <_3b`> ouch, it appears to be written in java
02:00:55 <madnificent> dmiles_afk: the benefit is that you can add performance-optimizations by implementing certain functions lisp uses directly
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02:01:07 <madnificent> _3b`: does that matter?
02:01:45 <_3b`> madnificent: a bit, i'd need to install a java, and if i don't like something about it, i won't be able to fix it
02:01:49 <dmiles_afk> madnificent:  by implementing certain functions lisp uses directly.. like in the target output language?
02:02:08 <madnificent> dmiles_afk: that would be the idea, yes
02:02:19 <dmiles_afk> right on, the end effect i want indeed :)
02:02:57 <dmiles_afk> madnificent: yeah thats why i am so jazzed on larkc.. thats how it works. and ABCL a little if it can be made to wrk that way as well
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02:04:24 <madnificent> dmiles_afk: I believe it could be benificial for many targets.  It could provide alternative implementations of functions and it could serve as a reference
02:05:17 <dmiles_afk> madnificent: indeed
02:05:47 <dmiles_afk> i wish ABCL to not think emitting bytecode is the hottest new thing.. unless they can make fibonacci in lisp runing on ABCL in the same JVM run as good a finbonacci writteen in java on that same JVM.. then they should not be emitting bytecode.. they should be emitting .java instead
02:06:45 <dmiles_afk> once ABCL can pass that milestone.. then go from .java to .class :)
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02:07:45 <dmiles_afk> becasue goign to .class loses thqat chance to fix it by hand
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02:08:14 <madnificent> dmiles_afk: maybe just take the implemantation that does the most CL in CL itself, then start from there onward?
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02:08:28 <madnificent> dmiles_afk: I don't think ABCL is going to change perspective any time soon
02:08:43 *nunb* sees "error in process filter: Invalid rpc: Thread not found: :REPL-THREAD"
02:09:10 <nunb> should I just do swank::create-server? at the terminal?
02:09:17 <dmiles_afk> madnificent: i have started i promise :).. i just not getting any time in the next 6 weeks :(
02:10:17 <dmiles_afk> madnificent: i am working on removing all the lisp code from ABCL.. well bit by bit
02:10:45 <dmiles_afk> making sure it continues to work as i go
02:11:00 <madnificent> dmiles_afk: wait, removing all the lisp code?
02:11:17 <dmiles_afk> not all... but the lisp code thats doing naughty slow stuff
02:11:48 <madnificent> I'd try not to care about speed for the initial idea, that's something you can solve later imho
02:11:52 <dmiles_afk> and just making it in my optimion easier to maintain
02:12:02 <madnificent> dmiles_afk: is there a mailing list or blog about it?
02:12:23 <dmiles_afk> i really need to start one.. i was dedicating full time to this last year.. this year now i am part time
02:12:47 <dmiles_afk> less.. i have svn history. i guess
02:12:59 <dmiles_afk> lessee.. i have svn history. i guess.. one sec
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02:13:15 <dmiles_afk> i am trying to devlope it like a branch.. where i merge in their changes
02:13:52 <dmiles_afk> http://code.google.com/r/logicmoo-invoke-interface/source/list
02:15:02 <dmiles_afk> i kind of need one or two people beside me that belive in the project to help out though
02:15:48 <dmiles_afk> there are some design paths i wish ABCL would go down.. but i can force them to
02:15:56 <dmiles_afk> i cant force thenm to
02:16:58 <dmiles_afk> i need to write more a paper explaining and bloging indeed.. if i expect it to gain traction
02:17:47 <dmiles_afk> i am not wanting to compete with ABCL eigther .. but it is losing so many oppertunities
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02:18:55 <dmiles_afk> to leverage the existing JVM infrastructure by doing simple stuff liek making LispObject an insteface instead of a concrete class
02:19:02 <dmiles_afk> interface
02:19:18 <dmiles_afk> the reason ABCL did this was only for speed reasons.. no other reason
02:19:33 <madnificent> quite acceptable from their point of view
02:19:58 <dmiles_afk> which makes it more dififcualt to imporove the speed at the same time ;)
02:20:02 <p_l> dmiles_afk: is there some guide to ABCL internals?
02:21:10 <dmiles_afk> mainly lots of time with it.. but no guides.. i probly only know about 50% of everytign i should about it
02:21:52 <dmiles_afk> erm actualy hard to judge how much i know by now about it
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02:22:24 <dmiles_afk> but generally thru archeology.. it went thru three designs
02:22:41 <madnificent> dmiles_afk: make a blog or site about it, or create a channel on freenode and drop content in there from time to time :)
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02:23:01 <p_l> there's already an abcl channel
02:23:16 *p_l* was thinking of porting part of CL to Dalvik
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02:23:23 <madnificent> p_l: but dmiles_afk's goal is somewhat different :)
02:23:34 <dmiles_afk> three designs as far as getting itself working .. one is the extreme java phase.. then a .. replace as much java iwht lisp phase.. then closing the loop phase
02:23:36 <p_l> heh. brb
02:23:36 <madnificent> p_l: porting to java would allow it to run on dalvik too
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02:24:02 <dmiles_afk> i think some more  extreme java phase is needed
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02:24:44 <dmiles_afk> my intial goal started when i needed ABCL to run on GCJ and .NET
02:25:13 <dmiles_afk> once i got it running .. i realized all the imporovments that could happen
02:25:40 <dmiles_afk> but yes.. i think my goals are not totally inline with ABCLs
02:26:25 <dmiles_afk> but i still am able to include all their improvments as they make them.. and leave some out since they are going backwards in my oppinoin
02:26:40 <dmiles_afk> in some of them
02:26:54 <dmiles_afk> not wrong.. just differnt dirrection
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02:28:27 <dmiles_afk> what concerns me .. is why cant they consume the imporovments i am able to make.. w/o impact on their code.. they should be able to take of leave them
02:28:48 <dmiles_afk> take or leave them*
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02:29:30 <dmiles_afk> its just the underlaying design patterns
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02:40:07 <drewc> trdddfr755555                  44444444444777777777777777777777777777r``````````````````````````````````````````````````
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02:40:17 <stassats> ferrets!
02:41:16 <nus> dmiles_afk, what if you instead write, say, a CL frontend to LLVM?
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02:42:10 <stassats> there's sbcl-llvm, but i don't think it's in a working state
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02:42:20 <stassats> foom was working on it
02:43:08 <dmiles_afk> the stage that pre-existing sbcl stops and sbcl-llvm starts should be pretty re-usable by any IR to llvm thing right?
02:43:37 <p_l> IMHO the only real issue would be how it generates and loads code
02:44:14 <dmiles_afk> *nod*
02:44:28 <dmiles_afk> hey what would really rock is a sbcl-jvm !
02:46:08 <nus> dmiles_afk, what's wrong with ABCL, again?
02:47:09 <dmiles_afk> nus: fibonacci in lisp on ABCL doesnt run as good as fibonacci written in java
02:47:31 <dmiles_afk> or many programs
02:48:11 <dmiles_afk> write it in java it seems to run faster than if its written in lisp to run on ABCL
02:48:32 <nus> dmiles_afk, have you done any deeper analysis why it does so?
02:49:12 <dmiles_afk> nus: much much .. and on the path to fix
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02:50:01 <dmiles_afk> some of the repair is going to take a lot more learning on my part.. but need a infrstructure to use these leanring how to fix
02:50:22 <toast-opt> cool, you work on abcl?
02:50:47 <dmiles_afk> nope.. i dont .. i work on a differnt java lisp.. that is closed source
02:51:01 <toast-opt> fun
02:51:02 <dmiles_afk> but their is an opensource downstream
02:51:06 <toast-opt> can you say where?
02:51:28 <dmiles_afk> the larkc project uses bits and pieces of this losed source javalisp
02:52:17 <dmiles_afk> with cycorp
02:52:57 <dmiles_afk> so it starts out in Cyc.. ten they give out parts to opensrc larkc.eu
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02:53:38 <dmiles_afk> Cyc uses a closed source SubLisp2Java translator
02:53:57 <dmiles_afk> then humans go back in and fix the java code that the emitter created becasue its horrible
02:54:13 <toast-opt> heh, wow
02:54:22 <dmiles_afk> and optimize it becasue eveyone knows "we are not there yet"
02:54:41 <toast-opt> maintenance nightmare, no? when they have to fix the lisp, do they manually merge the java output?
02:54:43 <dmiles_afk> once we get there.. sure.. we'll emit bytecoide
02:55:09 <dmiles_afk> once "we get there" (sane code).. sure.. we'll emit bytecode and skip the silly .java step
02:55:20 <toast-opt> oh, gotcha
02:55:22 <dmiles_afk> but no ones there yet.. not ABCL
02:55:30 <dmiles_afk> or anyone
02:56:02 <dmiles_afk> some files yet are gegen and hand loved on.. but those there is no reason to regenerate
02:56:19 <dmiles_afk> some files yet are gened once, hand loved on.. but those there is no reason to regenerate
02:56:26 <dmiles_afk> liek the pretty printer
02:56:54 <dmiles_afk> oh but every once in a wile the SubLisp2Java gets really well imporoved.. and the system is regnerated
02:57:37 <dmiles_afk> but IMO its never perfect enough to not check at least once for optertunmties to fix someothng bny hand
02:57:41 <aidalgol> What's the most terse code to calculate the roots of a quadratic function?
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02:59:03 <dmiles_afk> so what i am hopeing to do with all talkign here.. is eventualyl build a co olituion to do this sort of javalisp thiong in a totally opensourced enviroment.. using ABCL as the starting point
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03:00:11 <dmiles_afk> but as someone said .. need to start all the website and such
03:00:20 <dmiles_afk> the blog and etc etc
03:00:21 <nus> dmiles_afk, I fear what you end up with would be a more thorough understanding why you don't want too.
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03:02:07 <dmiles_afk> nus: i am also tryign to understand if it will be possible to make such a compiler
03:02:38 <dmiles_afk> sbcl has though hasnt it?
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03:03:00 *dmiles_afk* not sure.. but amzaed byu SBCL often
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03:03:40 <dmiles_afk> that if a person writes the same proram in C and in Lisp.. if the Lisp one isnt slightly crippled compared to the C one
03:03:47 <Phoodus> is it possible to somehow use tagged pointers in a JVM?  I don't recall if the validator would boot you for it
03:04:27 <dmiles_afk> Phoodus: yes.. the SWIG output uses longs in this manner
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03:05:00 <Phoodus> huh, so you can cast longs to pointers
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03:05:32 <dmiles_afk> or sometimes uses 'int's this way.. but its nicer when its 'long' becasue its immediate info that its a foriegn pointer
03:06:53 <dmiles_afk> well actually LongHandle of JPL does that
03:06:57 <aidalgol> I have two S-expressions (/ (+ (* b -1) (sqrt discriminant) (* 2 a))) and (/ (- (* b -1) (sqrt discriminant) (* 2 a))).  Can I use a macro to reduce the code duplication there?
03:07:26 <pkhuong> aidalgol: you could use variables.
03:07:31 <dmiles_afk> Phoodus: well actually LongHandle of JPL does something nghty like that.. they are tagged pointers
03:07:53 <aidalgol> pkhuong: So a macro isn't appropriate here?
03:08:17 <pkhuong> I don't see how.
03:08:38 <aidalgol> OK, thanks.
03:08:50 <dmiles_afk> Phoodus: and java even can do some bit mask comparison if it wants to to outsmart how the C code of SWI-prolog is using these masked pointers
03:08:58 <aidalgol> I'm still tryig to figure out macros. :)
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03:13:46 <dmiles_afk> nus: though .. well i had spent ... (dont laugh!) over 3000 hours (at least) and i still working on this java lisp.. and true i do feel liek i shoul dhave given up .. since it still hasnt gotten any better yet
03:14:14 <Phoodus> btw, why is Java the target?  deployability?
03:14:50 <dmiles_afk> for them (cycorp) yeah.. but for me, all the cool packages that come with java
03:15:07 <nus> what cool packages?
03:15:32 <nus> dmiles_afk, why don't you write missing packages in CL, instead?
03:15:32 <dmiles_afk> they actually cant allow themselves to do anything that java based.. since it wont run in the C RTL (w/out JNI love)
03:15:34 <Phoodus> one would think that reimplementing the java stdlibs in CL would be cheaper than writing a better CL in Java
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03:16:54 <dmiles_afk> cool packages.. owl3  jason,  jetty, jena, osgi
03:16:55 <Phoodus> or if you want to use any Jar, do a JVM bytecode to lisp compiler
03:17:19 <dmiles_afk> interface to swi-prolog
03:17:32 <Phoodus> that should be much less of an impedance mismatch than cl->jvm
03:17:40 <dmiles_afk> we can write it cffi sure.. but its already done as a .jar
03:18:33 <dmiles_afk> like my lisp bot currently can log into secondlife and do all sorts of things
03:20:00 <stassats> can it logout and never login again?
03:20:03 <dmiles_afk> becasue its based on VM (no extra code)
03:20:05 <toast-opt> fun, lisp playing second life
03:20:55 <Phoodus> hmm, if you compiled JVM to CL, I wonder if you could also have it natively support a JNI -> CFFI layer as well
03:21:22 <Phoodus> (I haven't used either native bridge)
03:21:52 <nunb> How would one deal with swank thread not found?
03:21:56 <nunb> I get this error: error in process filter: Invalid rpc: Thread not found: :REPL-THREAD
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03:23:08 <nunb> aidalgol: a general rule for macros: use them only if you need some part of an expression to be unevaluated.
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03:23:31 <toast-opt> like 'if', for instance
03:23:47 <Phoodus> or if you have repeated patterns of code all over the place, even though there are no unevaluated parameters
03:24:06 <nunb> toast-opt: exactly. I think PCL has an example where he develops a use-case that absolutely requires a macro (maybe it was if?)
03:24:35 <stassats> toast-opt: that's easy: (defun if* (condition then else) (if condition (funcall then) (funcall else)))
03:24:50 *_3b`* wonders if it is safe to assume setting a slot to NIL is atomic
03:25:12 <nunb> stassats: that requires that then and else are thunks?
03:25:29 <stassats> nunb: you guessed right
03:25:46 <toast-opt> stassats - cheating. if you surpress evaluation with a lambda or thunk, then you never need macros to supress evaluation
03:25:49 <toast-opt> take haskell
03:26:05 *nunb* thinks stassats is carrying a briefcase with a beelzebub retainer inside
03:26:09 <nunb> stassats: amirite?
03:26:31 <_3b`> toast-opt: there is still the case where you want to modify the unevaluated arguments
03:27:02 <nunb> toast-opt: but even using a thunk doesn't work if you want the thunking to be invisible to your end-user, so you need macros there too.
03:27:15 <pkhuong> stassats: macros are useful for syntactic sugar. Great news.
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03:27:46 <stassats> i was about to say that, macros don't add anything semantically, only syntactically
03:28:03 <nunb> heh, we're scaring the newbies with abstruse offshoots :-)
03:28:37 <stassats> and if you're into lambda calculus, you can use LAMBDA alone
03:28:41 <nunb> stassats: agreed. when one is wading in pages of code, syntactic salvation is longed for!
03:28:47 <toast-opt> lambda = everything, yup
03:29:18 *nunb* wonders if there is a LtU channel ..
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03:31:49 <toast-opt> seems there is #ltu
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03:32:02 <toast-opt> near empty tho
03:32:27 <toast-opt> per http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1953#comment-23675
03:32:53 <pkhuong> #oasis used to be as good as #ltu.
03:33:36 <aidalgol> nunb: OK, thanks!  I'll keep that in mind.
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03:37:30 *p_l* recalls an interesting quote on LtU about why FP is so great... \end{sarcasm}
03:38:43 *_3b`* will just assuming setting stuff to NIL is atomic enough for now, since other threads shouldn't be using it by that point anyway
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03:46:12 <toast-opt> so, ILC is colocated with oopsla this year?
03:47:08 <toast-opt> i've never been, but would like to get to know more about the lisp community. What should i expect?
03:47:54 <stassats> grumpy white-bearded fifty year olds
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03:49:31 <toast-opt> heh, really?
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03:49:54 <toast-opt> i saw some grey beards in last years pics, so it can't be as bad as you say
03:50:22 <stassats> that was last year, they're aging!
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03:51:17 <toast-opt> gotcha
03:51:26 <toast-opt> ugh, i'm already starting to grey :-S
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04:12:23 *p_l* was unfortunately told that he will probably go bald...
04:12:38 <p_l> the ones that got only gray hairs are lucky
04:14:02 <p_l> otoh, it will take a long time before I can manage to set aside money to go to ILC :/
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04:15:08 *drewc* has had grey in his beard since he was 19
04:15:08 <nus> p_l, how much money does one need to go to ILC?
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04:17:12 <p_l> nus: enough to pay for ticket and for the bloody US paperwork if it happens in USA
04:17:47 <p_l> for now, I'd rather invest such money into my own business
04:18:36 <p_l> (and USA kind of gives me similar feeling one probably had for a visit in North Korea thanks to War on Terror)
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04:20:41 <toast-opt> feels like he rides the short-bus country
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04:24:30 <p_l> well, >3k USD don't come easily
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04:27:31 <p_l> 2900 USD is just the airplane ticket
04:27:44 <p_l> (Aberdeen -> Reno -> Aberdeen)
04:29:31 <p_l> or more detailed, Aberdeen -> Amsterdam -> Los Angeles -> Reno and the same way back
04:31:16 <p_l> .... flying to tokyo is cheaper
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04:34:26 <p_l> hmm... QPX managed to find a flight for £661
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04:40:38 <dmiles_afk> " <Phoodus> hmm, if you compiled JVM to CL, I wonder if you could also have it natively support a JNI -> CFFI layer as well" thats true.. there is that one JVM impl that someone in here made
04:41:09 <dmiles_afk> i'd be happy with that
04:42:54 <dmiles_afk> though lately i been runing everythign JVM on IKVM which runs lisp
04:43:08 <dmiles_afk> IKVM is a tad slower but not by much
04:43:43 <dmiles_afk> on mono its 2ce the speed though.. but nice to not have to rewrite a bunch of code
04:43:53 <dmiles_afk> on mono its 1/2!
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04:48:06 <p_l> aargh
04:48:25 <p_l> sometimes it's really easier to just boot the damned image and call (apropos ...)
04:48:46 *p_l* really couldn't find fork or setsid in LispWorks
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04:58:49 <p_l> minion: memo for Guthur: Job Application? Anything interesting? :)
04:58:49 <minion> Remembered. I'll tell Guthur when he/she/it next speaks.
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05:15:14 <aidalgol> How long does it take for lisppaste to send a message to this channel?
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05:16:14 <housel> four or five seconds max, if it's up and connected
05:16:34 <aidalgol> It's been longer than that. :/
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05:16:41 *aidalgol* pasted http://paste.lisp.org/+29KE
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05:17:22 <stassats> clhs list
05:17:22 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm
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05:17:50 <stassats> why do you take a sqrt twice?
05:18:11 <aidalgol> I do?
05:18:43 <stassats> i don't know who does, maybe someone is putting it there while you're not watching
05:19:21 <aidalgol> I take it once for each root.
05:19:41 <stassats> that is twice
05:20:16 <aidalgol> Oh, I thought you meant twice for each root. :P
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05:25:34 <stassats> and you can negate numbers by (- number)
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06:39:51 <_3b`> anyone around who understands sb-queue/sb-concurrency:queue internals?
06:40:38 <fe[nl]ix> _3b`: two days from now
06:40:56 <p_l> ... that's an interesting answer
06:41:41 <fe[nl]ix> tcr is not here at the moment. he'll return on Sunday evening
06:41:52 *_3b`* is trying to figure out how to make sure the garbage it generates isn't all linked together
06:42:13 <_3b`> since that seems to be where my memory is leaking
06:49:28 *_3b`* pokes at it randomly, seems to have fixed the problem
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07:35:44 <nunb> aidalgol: you were asking about "what programs can be done in lisp but not python" (paraphrased)
07:36:28 *stassats* smells a turing tarpit
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07:38:21 <attila_lendvai> i had enough of iterate's broken code walking and want to initialize a new repo for a clone using a proper code walker... anyone with some name ideas? hu.dwim.iterate is prone to confuse. hu.dwim.looperate? :)
07:38:30 <nunb> aidalgol: never mind, I'm confusing you with someone from lispforum
07:38:36 *nunb* mumbles to himself
07:39:09 <attila_lendvai> it'll be a complete rewrite
07:39:10 <_3b`> attila_lendvai: reiterate?
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07:39:24 <nunb> _3b`: nice!
07:39:25 <attila_lendvai> _3b: heh, good one :)
07:39:33 <_3b`> or rewriterate
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07:39:49 <stassats> illiterate
07:39:54 <nunb> nicer :-) do you do shows?
07:39:54 <attila_lendvai> the former is easier on the tongue
07:40:06 *nunb* votes rewriterate
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07:40:32 *attila_lendvai* leans towards reiterate for now
07:40:58 <stassats> or obliterate
07:41:30 -!- delYsid` is now known as delYsid
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07:42:55 <maus> Good afternoon!
07:44:19 <attila_lendvai> _3b: i think i'll go with hu.dwim.reiterate. i'd be happy to credit you for the name, on which name should you be mentioned?
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08:35:19 <_3b`> in http://paste.lisp.org/display/105714 do the arrays survive GC due to conservative GC?
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08:40:29 <fe[nl]ix> _3b`: on my machine, all the arrays get collected
08:41:18 <_3b`> fe[nl]ix: on the 2nd call to ROOM?
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08:42:01 <fe[nl]ix> hmm, no. on the last one
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08:42:30 <_3b`> right, the 2nd one is the one i'm mostly concerned about, though i've had some survive all 3
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08:44:47 *_3b`* suspects that is an indication of something odd happening with the GC, not sure what though
08:47:17 <_3b`> as far as i can tell, the queue leaves all the previously queued stuff in 1 interlinked chunk, which is why they all stay... not sure what keeps the queue nodes alive though
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08:53:01 <toast-opt> sb-concurrency?
08:53:31 <_3b`> sbcl contrib
08:53:42 <_3b`> expanded version of sb-queue
08:54:48 <toast-opt> cool
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09:00:27 <toast-opt> ah, found it. SRFI-49. i was curious if such a syntax might work better in common lisp, due to the separate function and variable namespaces
09:00:28 <toast-opt> http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-49/srfi-49.html
09:00:34 <toast-opt> thoughts anyone?
09:00:54 <stassats> ugh
09:01:07 <toast-opt> i know, i know.  i'm not suggesting doing it
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09:01:37 <stassats> only thinking about it? no thanks!
09:01:45 <toast-opt> it just never occured to me that the separate namespaces might have a positive impact like this somewhere
09:01:52 <toast-opt> even if it's somewhere you'd never go
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09:02:03 <attila_lendvai> toast-opt: you lose a whole lot of structured editing commands which is one of the key fetures of the lisp non-syntax...
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09:02:22 *_3b`* doesn't see how multiple namespaces would help
09:02:43 <toast-opt> atilla_lendvai: i know. i hate refactoring python code because of just that fact.
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09:03:14 <fe[nl]ix> attila_lendvai: not necessarily, but with current emacs that's correct
09:03:15 <toast-opt> _3b` well, in this scheme, a line "x" gets expanded to "(x)"
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09:04:10 <toast-opt> so something like "__if_c_a\______b" (_ = whitespace, \ = newline) will parse as (if c a (b)), which is unintended
09:04:45 <toast-opt> however, being overly clever, one could make the line parse as a function application only if the symbol existed as a function -- and parse as just an expression otherwise
09:05:19 <toast-opt> so, same case, if b is a function, it parses as (if c a (b)) like before. but if it isn't a function, parses as (if c a b), which is meaningful
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09:05:22 <_3b`> seems to me you either have a deterministic mapping based entirely on whitespace, and names don't matter... or you have some heuristic, which will break unpredictably
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09:05:41 <toast-opt> well, you can always be explicit
09:06:02 <toast-opt> if you need it to parse as (if c a b), then don't indent too far :)
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09:06:41 <toast-opt> sorry, i must be smoking some bad curly-brace-laden junk
09:07:14 <_3b`> if i wanted to avoid typing parens, i'd set up the editor to type them for me
09:07:35 <_3b`> and if i wanted to avoid reading them, i'd make them togglable
09:07:53 <toast-opt> parens as 50% grey?
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09:08:44 <_3b`> but i'd keep them in the on-disk (or wherever) serialization format
09:09:23 <stassats> arrange them so that they are inside a blind spot
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09:10:25 *_3b`* thinks making code nice to edit or view should be the responsibility of the editing/viewing program though
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09:12:34 <toast-opt> eh, i agree at a level. it must be made easy to read and write the code. a good (or language-aware) editor is one way to acheive that
09:13:16 *_3b`* is objecting more to baking various decisions into the compiler for no reason
09:13:22 <toast-opt> it does seem redundant, though, that a very large fraction of program lines both begin and end with a paren
09:14:31 <_3b`> what fraction of those are matching pairs though?
09:15:00 <toast-opt> that varies, to be sure
09:15:04 <_3b`> and not like other languages don't middle and end with a paren :)
09:15:33 <toast-opt> true. haskell is unique in this respect
09:15:43 <_3b`> ( is fewer characters than a bunch of spaces anyway
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09:15:51 <toast-opt> yes, (f x) and f (x) are equivalent in terms of punctuation overhead
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09:16:05 <toast-opt> haskell wins this mini-benchmark with f x
09:16:31 <toast-opt> well, spaces are invisible, and admit that you indent anyway
09:16:32 <stassats> whitespace wins
09:16:45 <stassats> example:
09:16:57 *_3b`* doesn't indent, emacs does
09:17:26 <toast-opt> fair enough. but the indent is there, and you have the option of overriding it
09:17:33 <stassats> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language) for those who's unfamiliar)
09:17:45 <toast-opt> oh, whitespace the language :)
09:18:21 <toast-opt> well, that's the other side of the problem -- not seeing something you need to be able to see
09:19:06 <stassats> M-x whitespace-mode
09:19:30 <toast-opt> plus some of us don't use emacs :-P
09:19:35 <toast-opt> <-- ducks
09:20:15 <stassats> that's their problem
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09:20:48 <toast-opt> do you use ctags?
09:20:58 <toast-opt> was curious how well it works in CL
09:21:05 <toast-opt> haven't had time to try it out
09:21:13 <_3b`> most of us probably use slime instead
09:21:25 <stassats> no ctags, introspection from a lisp image
09:21:30 <_3b`> it asks the running lisp where the code is
09:21:50 <toast-opt> oh, i didn't realize that existed
09:21:57 <toast-opt> darn, that would be useful instead
09:22:12 <_3b`> if you don't use slime, you miss out on a lot :/
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09:22:50 <_3b`> (probably, i'm assuming you also don't use any of a number of other rare options like a real lisp machine)
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09:23:10 <kiuma> hello
09:23:22 <stassats> or a virtual lisp machine
09:23:58 <kiuma> hello lispers
09:23:59 <_3b`> true, i suppose what i actually meant was lispos rather than machine
09:24:27 <stassats> zmacs was nice
09:24:43 <kiuma> if I'd like to implement my IMAP client, would iolib be a nice choice ?
09:24:49 <toast-opt> actually, one of my coworkers has a lisp machine
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09:25:42 *toast-opt* keeps it in his office, boots it up from time to time
09:25:43 <stassats> my lisp-machine is called "intel-x86"
09:25:50 <galdor> kiuma: if I may, try no to be dependant of the socket layer
09:26:05 <toast-opt> rather, he keeps it in his office (gotta turn off that auto-action parsing)
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09:26:42 <toast-opt> i was totally blown away by it, for the time period its from
09:27:00 <stassats> nineties?
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09:30:42 <toast-opt> symbolics genera
09:30:45 <toast-opt> ?
09:31:44 <kiuma> galdor, ok
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09:34:30 <stassats> toast-opt: it's from the nineties
09:34:37 <toast-opt> thx
09:34:42 <stassats> i mean it was still there
09:35:08 <stassats> from 80s to 90s
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09:47:09 <toast-opt> 80's
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10:36:49 <leo2007> there's a package cl-plplot that I am using and every time it asks user for input, it is shown in the terminal that runs lisp and not in slime.
10:36:55 <leo2007> How to work around this?
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10:43:15 <billstclair> leo2007, you've got to bind the standard input & output streams in the process asking for input. Tends to be a bit confusing, though, seeing the listener and other process input and output mixed:
10:43:18 <billstclair> (process-run-function "Foo" (lambda (*standard-input* *standard-output*) (format t "Say something: ") (finish-output) (format t "~&~s~%" (read-line))) *standard-input* *standard-output*)
10:43:53 <billstclair> That's ccl:process-run-function. Name will be different in other lisps
10:44:44 <billstclair> And cl-plplot may use *terminal-io* instead of *standard-input* and *standard-output*. You'll have to look
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10:46:55 <leo2007> billstclair: thanks for that. I will look it up.
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10:49:30 <leo2007> billstclair: there's neither terminal-io or standard-in/out in its source. but cl-plplot is a cffi binding to the c lib plplot.
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10:51:15 <billstclair> Not sure what lisp does with I/O on the low-level streams. One would hope that it sends them to *standard-input* and *standard-output*, but I don't know off the top of my head
10:52:17 <billstclair> But you'll find out pretty quickly if you bind those vars in your code that calls cl-plplot
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10:56:52 <leo2007> billstclair: I don't understand the code you pasted which I put in lisppaste http://paste.lisp.org/display/105719. There are still many areas of lisp I am learning.
10:57:33 <leo2007> lisppaste not announcing pastes any more :(
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10:58:33 <leo2007> billstclair: if my code is only (plstar 2 2) where to insert that form in 105719?
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11:15:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Again, can you make arbitrary Lisp objects callable?
11:16:29 <stassats> only your own
11:16:37 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, how?
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11:17:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Since funcall isn't generic.
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11:20:06 <attila_lendvai> clhs funcallable-standard-class
11:20:07 <specbot> Sorry, I couldn't find anything for funcallable-standard-class.
11:20:25 <_3b> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.alu.org/mop/concepts.html#funcallable-instances might be a starting point
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11:26:21 <tfb> Phantom_Hoover: see for instance http://paste.lisp.org/display/105720
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11:28:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "There is no class named FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-CLASS.
11:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> (Latest SBCL)
11:28:40 <stassats> it's in sb-mop
11:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah
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11:29:37 <mvilleneuve> good afternoon
11:31:47 <_3b`> is writing to an iolib socket stream from multiple threads expected to cause errors? (beyond garbled output)
11:34:02 *stassats* has read "25 reasons to buy symbolics genera"
11:34:06 <stassats> i like one of the reasons "Yup - you need it, we got it."
11:34:11 <stassats> i'm convinced!
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11:36:32 <antoszka> Pity you can't really buy it anymore.
11:36:54 <stassats> you can't?
11:37:13 <antoszka> I thought there's only aftermarket stuff now around.
11:37:15 <antoszka> Maybe I'm wrong.
11:37:52 <stassats> i don't know about right now, but in recent years i heard you can buy something
11:40:03 <tfb> I'm pretty sure you can't get anything recent - Open Genera ran on Alphas which are reasonably long dead now
11:40:35 <tfb> and Ivory (let alone L/G systems) are very, very long dead
11:40:46 <stassats> but that doesn't mean you can't get one
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11:42:15 <tfb> stassats: no, of course.  I used to have lots.
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11:43:27 <stassats> but anyway, it's better to spend money and time on modern lisp projects
11:43:36 <billstclair> leo, if you type (plstar 2 2) in the slime listener, and output goes to the *inferior-lisp* window, then I don't know how to fix your problem
11:43:43 <billstclair> leo2007,
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11:43:51 <tfb> stassats: agree
11:43:58 <stassats> then you need to enable output redirection in slime
11:44:09 <stassats> that is swank:*globally-redirect-io*
11:45:17 <leo2007> billstclair: I have slime remote connected to swank which runs in a ssh terminal. the prompt goes to the terminal.
11:45:55 <leo2007> stassats: any consequences of setting swank:*globally-redirect-io* to non-nil?
11:46:12 <stassats> leo2007: your output gets redirected
11:49:13 <leo2007> stassats: I have set *GLOBALLY-REDIRECT-IO* to t and it is still asked in the terminal: http://imagebin.org/98691
11:50:12 <stassats> did you restart swank?
11:50:18 <leo2007> yes
11:50:24 <leo2007> and check that it is T.
11:50:53 <leo2007> but the ask for input is from the C code; it is not in lisp.
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12:39:14 *Ifrit* good afternoon
12:39:26 <madnificent> good afternoon Ifrit
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12:50:27 <attila_lendvai> heh, i have an iterate clone, currently in 370 lines, that supports collect, in, repeat, finally. and it properly deals with the lexenv and is on the way to properly handle nesting iters...
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12:52:14 <adeht> Don't ITERATE, HU.DWIM.ITERATE!
12:52:47 <attila_lendvai> adeht: almost. hu.dwim.reiterate
12:53:13 <dlowe> nice play on words
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12:53:41 <attila_lendvai> credit goes to _3b
12:54:37 <leo2007> Is iterate a real improvement over loop?
12:54:54 <attila_lendvai> definitely
12:55:56 <dlowe> I haven't been convinced yet
12:56:20 <dlowe> though I recently started using iolib, so maybe I'll end up using iterate too
12:57:05 <attila_lendvai> dlowe: first-time-p, collect clauses nested deep in the body, etc...
12:57:51 <stassats> if you use it all the time
12:58:35 <adeht> I usually just stick with the standard, non-walked loop.. but I like iterate
12:58:45 <adeht> FORMAT, on the other hand...
12:59:12 *Xach* looks around for ehu
12:59:16 <stassats> loop has an advantage of being available everywhere out of the box
12:59:29 <dlowe> that's a substantial advantage
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13:01:38 <dlowe> but then, I avoid hairy LOOPs like I avoid hairy FORMATs
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13:04:48 *rsynnott* quite likes loop
13:04:59 <rsynnott> but not format :)
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13:05:33 <lichtblau> loop is a great counterexample to all the silly DSL hype
13:05:38 <lichtblau> Just because you _can_ write a DSL that is totally different from the code it's being used in, doesn't mean you should.
13:06:18 <madnificent> lichtblau: I was quit impressed by loop though
13:06:47 <madnificent> lichtblau: java gives you while, do-while and for... lisp gives you loop
13:07:12 <stassats> i miss LOOP while dealing with inferior languages
13:08:05 <madnificent> lichtblau: not saying that it's better than iterate or the likes, but it was something that impressed me when I started using lisp (I also hear others finding that same loop very impressive)
13:08:14 <Xach> stassats: is there something like slime-kill-definition?
13:08:48 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-187-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp
13:09:05 <lichtblau> LOOP is an impressive demonstration of what happens when a committee doesn't have a great proposal on hand, and chooses a fair one instead.
13:10:34 <stassats> Xach: not that i know of, but one can easily write one: (defun kill-defun () (interactive) (beginning-of-defun) (kill-sexp))
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13:11:35 <Xach> stassats: perhaps "kill" is the wrong word in the emacs context. yesterday i wanted to remove a method from a gf while i was at the method's definition. I wanted M-x dwim to remove the method. C-c C-u does fmakunbound, which was too broad.
13:11:57 <dlowe> I still love series, but I don't love the things it does to integrate itself into CL
13:12:52 <stassats> Xach: oh, that. no, there isn't
13:12:56 <madnificent> lichtblau: something for cltl3 to fix then?
13:13:21 <stassats> and it should be easy to add once there will be parsing of method arglists to get to the specific method
13:14:26 <madnificent> lichtblau: if the CL core would be reduced and split into modules, then it would be easier to replace loop with iterate
13:14:31 <madnificent> lichtblau: a guess
13:14:53 <lichtblau> that doesn't make sense, because there is no cltl3 and isn't going to be
13:15:04 <pkhuong> dlowe: I'd like series if it reduced the scope and went with an EDSL instead of trying to codewalk its way into transparence.
13:15:10 <stassats> there is cltl3
13:15:32 <stassats> maybe it's not breathing
13:15:53 <dlowe> pkhuong: I've thought the same
13:16:52 <dlowe> I'd also like it if it were integrated into the language, so that sequences and streams were subtypes of series
13:17:51 <stassats> will be fixed in Common Lisp 2084
13:18:35 <Xach> attila_lendvai: when compiling hu.dwim.logger I get: Symbol "%SYS-GET-MONOTONIC-TIME" not found in the IOLIB.SYSCALLS package
13:18:41 <Xach> attila_lendvai: can you suggest a fix?
13:18:49 <attila_lendvai> Xach: pull iolib
13:20:30 <lichtblau> iolib has dropped the %sys- prefix.
13:20:34 <Xach> attila_lendvai: i still get the error. am i pulling from the wrong place?
13:21:02 <attila_lendvai> Xach: probably. some gitorious.org or whatnot is the latest, and make sure you use git://
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13:23:04 <adeht> I believe git://repo.or.cz/iolib.git is the latest and greatest
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13:24:05 <Xach> I'm using the latest iolib.
13:24:21 <Xach> It looks like the hu.dwim.logger i'm using is running into the problem lichtblau describes.
13:24:52 <attila_lendvai> Xach: ahh, sorry. you need to pull _hu.dwim.logger_
13:25:12 *attila_lendvai* was confused with the directions
13:25:27 <Xach> attila_lendvai: I did that from http://dwim.hu/live/hu.dwim.logger/ - is there a better place to use?
13:25:44 <attila_lendvai> Xach: s/live/darcs/
13:26:12 <Xach> Thanks.
13:26:19 <attila_lendvai> or alternatively clone iolib from our live system, and then you'll have no integration headaches. (install guide at http://dwim.hu)
13:27:37 <lichtblau> attila_lendvai: in general, would you say it's a sound idea to use --lazy in clbuild for darcs checkouts?
13:28:22 <attila_lendvai> lichtblau: IMHO, yes. darcs will get the patches it needs afterwards...
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13:29:14 <attila_lendvai> lichtblau: i was about to add the dwim.hu stuff to clbuild, but i couldn't convince levy to rename hu.dwim.asdf to hu.dwim.build-environment or hu.dwim.asdf-extensions... so i just dropped the whole idea for now
13:29:42 <lichtblau> what's wrong with the current name?
13:30:16 <attila_lendvai> people think it's an asdf fork
13:30:34 <lichtblau> I had a clbuild-dwim.hu somewhere, but too many forks of non-dwim.hu libraries were needed at the time to put it into clbuild proper.
13:31:22 <lichtblau> Perhaps that has changed and http://dwim.hu/darcs/* could just go into wnpp-projects these days?
13:31:31 <attila_lendvai> i so much want to get rid of those extra patches... the works offender is a debugger cleanup in sbcl. the rest could be dealth with
13:32:34 <attila_lendvai> lichtblau: metacopy is definitely an issue, although our branch is backwards compatible. (it's on our todo to create a lib for customizable equals and copy which would replace metacopy)
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13:34:28 <attila_lendvai> afaics, the problematic repos are metacopy and sbcl
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13:37:45 <lichtblau> which hu.dwim project is it that has the special SBCL requirement?
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13:38:31 <attila_lendvai> lichtblau: the error handling in util, namely the backtrace extraction
13:39:02 <attila_lendvai> i was trying to convince sbcl comitters to look into my cleanup, but no luck
13:39:30 <attila_lendvai> http://dwim.hu/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl;a=summary
13:40:01 <attila_lendvai> namely, http://dwim.hu/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=sbcl;a=commitdiff;h=db6fe3821c98c7b894083cd2f8bc4f2ac5006775
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13:41:12 <ClaudiaS> Hi people!
13:41:51 <fe[nl]ix> adeht: I'm using gitorious now, with a mirror on c-l.net
13:42:24 <ClaudiaS> can anyone point me to a way to re-return a values return?
13:42:32 <ClaudiaS> (was this clear??)
13:42:35 <Xach> ClaudiaS: no.
13:42:46 <ClaudiaS> Ah
13:43:03 <ClaudiaS> not clear?
13:43:04 <fe[nl]ix> _3b: I've never tried to write concurrently to an iolib stream. I wouldn't bet that you'll get no errors
13:43:19 <Xach> ClaudiaS: not clear.
13:43:42 <ClaudiaS> Xach: (floor 1 2) --> 0 1
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13:44:22 <ClaudiaS> Xach: I'd like to do something like (values (floor 1 2)) --> 0 1
13:44:37 <Xach> ClaudiaS: why?
13:44:52 <stassats> the last form of progn returns all values
13:45:14 <stassats> and there is multiple-value-prog1
13:45:16 <ClaudiaS> I have a huge values "list" to be processed in an auxiliary fn
13:45:51 <ClaudiaS> this aux fn is called inside a cond in the main fn
13:46:22 <stassats> if it's huge, it has no point being multiple values
13:46:34 <stassats> clhs multiple-values-limit
13:46:34 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_multip.htm
13:46:37 <ClaudiaS> I just want to pass through the value
13:46:51 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp
13:47:28 <ClaudiaS> huge is 10
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13:48:03 <stassats> it fits in 20, but it will be unlikely optimized
13:48:15 <ClaudiaS> yeah, I know...
13:48:20 <ClaudiaS> legacy code
13:49:26 <ClaudiaS> I'm refactoring this huge cond branch. in the deep end of it it has a (values ...) statement with 10 thinguies to return
13:50:15 <ClaudiaS> The protocol of the main function cannot be changed
13:50:35 <ClaudiaS> and the 10 values are a must
13:51:25 <stassats> if you need something more then just returning all values, then save them and return
13:51:50 <ClaudiaS> save them?
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13:51:59 <blandest> ClaudiaS: Does this make any sense (values (multiple-value-call #'list (values 1 2))) ?
13:52:02 <stassats> clhs m-v-b
13:52:02 <specbot> MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_multip.htm
13:52:03 <ClaudiaS> I need to calculate them, and then return
13:52:22 <stassats> so, what's the problem then?
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13:55:47 <ClaudiaS> I wanto to hide those 10 values
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13:56:21 <ClaudiaS> i don't want to do (values la la la ...) in the huge main function
13:56:29 <ClaudiaS> in several branches
13:56:42 <ClaudiaS> of a cond statement
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13:56:52 <stassats> and?
13:56:53 aw [~aw@89.204.153.102] has joined #lisp
13:57:23 <ClaudiaS> but the main function must return those 10 values
13:57:34 <pkhuong> ClaudiaS: do you mean that many of the multiple values can be computed before the cond, or that they're computed the same way in each branch?
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14:00:11 <adeht> fe[nl]ix: oh, good to know
14:00:35 <ClaudiaS> oh! Luis just helped me out
14:00:39 <fe[nl]ix> adeht: http://gitorious.org/iolib/
14:00:57 <luis> IRC sucks. Support IRL works so much better. :)
14:01:09 <ClaudiaS> thanks guys!
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14:02:59 <frustrated> what does this mean? --->  (BLA X) is neither of type SYMBOL nor a list of the form (SETF SYMBOL).
14:03:11 <adeht> exactly what it says
14:03:15 <frustrated> my code is:  (defun (bla x) (x * x)) (format t "this: ~a" (bla 5))
14:03:20 <frustrated> shouldn't it run fine?
14:03:38 tster [~user@nat/ibm/x-utyhlcgwfnsndifi] has joined #lisp
14:03:41 <Guthur> Lots of things wrong there
14:03:41 <minion> Guthur, memo from p_l: Job Application? Anything interesting? :)
14:03:42 <adeht> no.. function names are either symbols or (setf <symbol>)
14:03:53 <ClaudiaS> (defun bla (x) ...) you mean?
14:04:18 <adeht> frustrated: also, what do you expect (x * x) to do..
14:04:25 <frustrated> return x * x?
14:04:57 <stassats> you must be not only frustrated, but also confused
14:05:05 <stassats> minion: please tell frustrated about PCL
14:05:06 <minion> frustrated: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
14:05:10 <Guthur> p_l: I think I might have been referring to an application to Jolt Online, its a web app developer position using python by the looks, which would be great actually.
14:05:30 <frustrated> i'm following pcl
14:06:06 <stassats> then you should know that common lisp uses prefix notation
14:06:08 <frustrated> but also following the MIT videos on Lisp
14:06:28 <Xach> Not a great idea to context-switch between those.
14:06:31 <Xach> Try serially instead.
14:06:32 <frustrated> it said that I could do (defun (bla x) (...) )
14:06:35 <stassats> you mixed three different languages in that snippet
14:06:39 <tster> Hello, newbie question, can this be done simpler? http://paste.lisp.org/display/105725
14:07:18 <stassats> frustrated: in Common Lisp it should be (defun bla (x) (* x x))
14:07:22 <Xach> tster: (rotatef (getf x y) (car x)) perhaps?
14:07:31 <frustrated> right tight, but how come it can't be (defun (bla x) (* x x)) ?
14:07:38 <tster> Xach: thanks
14:07:42 <Xach> frustrated: that's not the syntax of Common Lisp.
14:07:43 <frustrated> it works in Scheme
14:07:43 <stassats> frustrated: because it's not a valid syntax
14:07:47 <pkhuong> tster: what is that supposed to do?
14:07:59 <frustrated> but the guy in the MIT Lisp video said it does... so it doesn't anymore?
14:08:15 <Xach> frustrated: he is describing a language that is not Common Lisp.
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14:08:24 <stassats> you know about Scheme, so you should know that these videos are about Scheme
14:08:24 <frustrated> oh ok
14:08:27 <tster> pkhuong: exchange values of car of x and nth place in x
14:08:38 <frustrated> no he doesn't mention scheme in the video
14:08:44 <Xach> tster: getf doesn't do that.
14:09:01 <Xach> tster: nth does, though. i think using rotatef with nth might do what you want.
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14:09:43 <pkhuong> except for traversing the list twice, but that's a detail.
14:10:10 <adeht> frustrated: they use Scheme but call it Lisp
14:10:21 <frustrated> oh... that explains it then
14:11:58 <frustrated> thanks
14:12:56 <breeze> Is there a Common Lisp function that can do this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/105726 ?
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14:14:06 <frustrated> anyone here uses lispworks ide? i'm looking for the keyboard shorcut to compile...
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14:14:59 <Xach> frustrated: it's not all that common here, I think most here use slime. lispworks has an active and helpful mailing list, though.
14:15:15 <Xach> breeze: not directly.
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14:17:12 <ClaudiaS> humm
14:17:31 <tster> Xach: thanks again, (rotatef (nth n lst) (car lst)) did it
14:21:10 <frustrated> Xach: thanks for the tip - yeah one day i'll evolve to use emacs + slime  :)
14:21:37 <Xach> frustrated: some of the best lisp nerds i know use and love lispworks. they just don't gather here, in general.
14:21:45 n00p [~z0r@unaffiliated/n00p] has joined #lisp
14:21:55 <frustrated> Xach: hmm wish there were an irc channel for it
14:22:04 <n00p> ok, I'm confused... "Implementations have enough leeway that the expression (eq 3 3) can legally evaluate to either true or false."
14:22:13 <n00p> (eq 3 3) can evaluate to false?
14:22:16 <Xach> n00p: yes.
14:22:17 <stassats> yes
14:22:28 <pkhuong> n00p: yes. That's why you should use EQL in general, and especially with numbers or characters.
14:22:38 <Xach> EQ is a predicate with limited applicability.
14:22:38 <stassats> and (eq "3" "3") can evaluate to true
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14:24:40 *n00p* shrugs it off :P
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14:26:34 <gigamonkey> n00p: some folks, including myself, advises pretending EQ doesn't exist.
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14:26:56 <gigamonkey> Others, however, passionately disagree with that advice.
14:27:01 <adeht> stassats: so can eql ;).. true or false
14:27:25 <pkhuong> gigamonkey: you just have to know what you're doing!
14:27:40 <stassats> adeht: because it uses EQ
14:27:55 <gigamonkey> pkhuong: well, I know what I'm doing (in that regard, anyway) and I still don't like EQ
14:28:36 <pkhuong> I still have an evil plan to randomly break EQ on characters and numbers.
14:28:50 *gigamonkey* approves that plan.
14:29:23 <n00p> ok, I can understand your hatred for it... Why do some passionately disagree with that advice?
14:29:47 <n00p> Under what circumstance would it be appropriate to use eq?
14:29:59 <gigamonkey> Some folks like to use it as a way of indicating that they are specifically comparing objects for which EQ works, usually symbols.
14:30:18 <n00p> ok, to test that they are the same object... correct?
14:30:29 <n00p> not just that the objects contain the same value
14:30:30 <pkhuong> or that they don't care about false negatives (e.g. caching).
14:31:10 <Phantom_Hoover> EQ tests whether the objects are both the same thing, doesn't it?
14:31:24 <adeht> no, EQL is about sameness, EQ is about identity (heh)
14:31:33 <gigamonkey> Actually, strictly speaking the spec uses "the same" to mean 'equivalent under EQL'
14:31:46 *gigamonkey* was typing slow -- that was to n00p
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14:32:50 <gigamonkey> Basically, EQ is a little window that when you peek through it makes characters and numbers non objects in the sense of not having stable identity.
14:32:55 <adeht> the Notes section for EQL sums things up pretty well
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14:32:57 <n00p> I'm sure I understand...
14:33:17 <n00p> Please don't make this a kindergarten lesson.
14:33:39 *rme* was at kindergarten just this morning.
14:33:48 <n00p> I'm learning Lisp, not 2+2 :P
14:33:56 <stassats> they teach lisp there too?
14:34:00 <billstclair> I use EQ when I mean EQ and EQL when I mean EQL
14:34:09 <pkhuong> n00p: and EQL *is* about sameness, and not the objects' contents.
14:34:19 <billstclair> And EQUALP when I can't help it
14:34:31 <adeht> gigamonkey: it's interesting that (EQL 1.0 1.0) may return false however
14:34:45 <rme> Maybe I should have given the kindergarten library a copy of PCL instead of Mr. Pine's Purple House.
14:34:58 <gigamonkey> adeht: yeah, to quote myself from Coders at Work, "Like the Spanish Inquistion, nobody expects floating point."
14:35:09 <pkhuong> adeht: how?
14:35:15 <adeht> clhs eql
14:35:16 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm
14:35:18 <adeht> pkhuong: see notes
14:35:55 <pkhuong> They write float as in random floating point type.
14:36:03 <n00p> function or type specifier?
14:36:08 <n00p> I guess function...
14:36:12 <pkhuong> I don't see how that applies to floats of the same type.
14:36:13 <stassats> but notes aren't part of the standard
14:36:16 <gigamonkey> adeht: actually, can the literal expression (eql 1.0 1.0) really return NIL?
14:36:30 <adeht> pkhuong: that's a valid interpretation
14:37:00 <tfb> I think the point is that 1.0 might not have a unique bitpattern
14:37:04 <pkhuong> "if the arguments are characters or numbers of the same type then their values are compared."
14:37:15 <n00p> the notes clear things up
14:37:18 <n00p> thanks
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14:37:27 <adeht> pkhuong: look up the definition of "same"
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14:38:21 <n00p> that whole little thing about the window though... that just brought back bad memories of looking out the window and dropping the soap... looking out the window and picking it up... then looking back and seeing a naked sailor, "permission to come aboard cap'n?"
14:38:26 <pkhuong> adeht: same type?
14:38:26 <stassats> n00p: but keep in mind that notes aren't normative
14:38:32 <adeht> but tfb has it right I think.. -0.0 and +0.0
14:38:37 <stassats> clhs 1.4.3
14:38:37 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_dc.htm
14:38:49 <n00p> stassats: shall do
14:39:10 <pkhuong> adeht: sure. That's not 1.0, though.
14:39:15 <tfb> adeht: I am now wondering if they mean (eql 1.0s0 1.0d0)?
14:39:24 *gigamonkey* awards n00p one Cuil
14:39:31 <tfb> which, I think would be =?
14:39:47 <pkhuong> tfb: that's how I read it.
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14:40:03 <n00p> gigamonkey: What's a Cuil?
14:40:25 <fe[nl]ix> luis: can we declare the CFFI git repo on c-l.net official now ?
14:40:32 <adeht> pkhuong: but the type is the same and the value is conceptually the "same"
14:40:43 <gigamonkey> n00p: http://cuiltheory.wikidot.com/what-is-cuil-theory
14:41:01 <adeht> pkhuong: one problem is that neither of the three definitions of "same" in the glossary helps in disambiguating this
14:41:45 <pkhuong> adeht: what type is the same?
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14:42:09 <adeht> pkhuong: the type of 1.0 (I'm talking about (eql 1.0 1.0))
14:42:12 <tfb> pkhuong: on CCL (eql +0.0 -0.0) is false, so I think either CCL is wrong or my earlier interpretation is correct
14:42:23 <n00p> gigamonkey: C has many of those... just ask Zhivago.
14:42:24 <adeht> pkhuong: or +0.0 or -0.0
14:42:45 <adeht> tfb: same on sbcl
14:43:20 <tfb> So I guess implementations are taking it to mean that if they are the same type then compare the bitpatterns
14:43:46 <tfb> since I think the values of +0.0 and -0.0 are the same
14:44:24 <pkhuong> tfb: and one would have a broken reader if 1.0 did not always yield the same bit pattern.
14:44:29 <luis> fe[nl]ix: yes, I'll take care of that this weekend.
14:44:40 <adeht> pkhuong: how come?
14:44:46 <fe[nl]ix> ok, thanks :)
14:44:47 <adeht> pkhuong: and why is the reader involved?
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14:45:16 <tfb> pkhuong: but I think a float system is allowed to have multiple bitpatterns for something which is numerically 1.0
14:45:42 <tfb> (whether or not any current ones do)
14:45:53 <pkhuong> tfb: sure, speculate away.
14:46:54 <pkhuong> adeht: I couldn't understand how else you would justify (eql 1.0 1.0) => NIL.
14:48:43 <adeht> pkhuong: when I wrote that I didn't mean to restrict it to something being read
14:51:08 <gigamonkey> adeht: yeah, that was what my question way back there was about.
14:52:24 <adeht> still I see no reason why a reader couldn't do (choose representation-1 representation-2) :)
14:52:55 <gigamonkey> adeht: Right. I could easily imagine the spec doesn't rule that out.
14:52:57 <adeht> other than abysmal quality of implementation reasons :)
14:53:10 <tfb> adeht: and it would actually be good to do that, because it would expose bugs in code sooner
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14:53:42 <tfb> if a computation can return several representations, better find out sooner rather than later
14:53:53 <adeht> well, if you find out at all
14:54:23 <pkhuong> adeht: numbers are supposed to be preserved by print/read roundtrips.
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14:55:49 <adeht> pkhuong: hmm.. yeah, that might rule it out.  -0.0 prints as -0.0
14:56:38 <gigamonkey> I think I just figured out why languages with no specs have so many more libraries: their programmers never waste time on these kinds of conversations. ;-)
14:56:38 <blandest> I find it funny that: (or (> 0.0 -0.0) (< 0.0 -0.0)) -> NIL
14:57:17 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:57:31 <p_l> gigamonkey: no, it's just that whenever they try some crazy thing like that they give up in first 15 minutes
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14:57:47 <gigamonkey> Hmmm. Maybe that's the germ of an idea for my ILC talk: "The Perils and Proft of Having a Good Spec"
14:58:02 <stassats> blandest: that's because (= 0.0 -0.0) => T
14:58:24 <blandest> stassats: yes, that's consistent I guess
14:58:26 <kiuma> how do I transform a list to a vector ?
14:58:32 <gigamonkey> kiuma: COERCE
14:58:34 <p_l> gigamonkey: personally, I think it's also an issue of pure unadulterated *number* of programers and then a little about FFI
14:58:34 <stassats> (coerce list 'vector)
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14:58:57 <gigamonkey> p_l: yes, of course. I was joking. Sort of.
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15:01:38 <stassats> and some of these languages have incompatible versions
15:01:43 <tfb> adeht: I'm pretty sure that read/print consistency is defined in terms of similarity, and "two numbers are similar if they are of the same type and represent the same mathematical value"
15:02:11 <stassats> and you should know when and what feature appeared if you want compatibility
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15:02:21 <pkhuong> tfb: same is EQL.
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15:03:37 <tfb> pkhuong: +0.0 and -0.0 are of the same type and represent the same mathematical value
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15:04:56 <pkhuong> tfb: you'll note that infinities and signed zeroes are nowhere in the spec.
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15:05:38 <tfb> pkhuong: so do you claim that systems with these things are not conforming?
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15:05:51 <tfb> pkhuong: because that would be an interesting claim I think
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15:06:28 <pkhuong> no, it's just outside the spec.
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15:10:43 <adeht> tfb: same mathematical value is pretty close to same conceptual value, which is what eql tests for
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15:13:14 <tfb> adeht: except, not for positve and negative 0.0 :-)
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15:14:33 <rme> tfb: Now you've got me wondering if it's a bug that (eql +0.0 -0.0) is NIL.
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15:14:48 <pkhuong> rme: if it's a bug, it's a useful one.
15:14:54 <tfb> rme: that was the original question
15:14:56 <adeht> now for maximum confusion, =: The value of = is true if all numbers are the same in value
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15:15:12 <pkhuong> tfb: your original question.
15:15:35 <adeht> +0.0 and -0.0 are =.. so they're the same in value.. they're also the same in type
15:15:38 <tfb> I suspect (but don't know), that the intention around EQL was to be the same as = *if all arguments are the same type*
15:15:52 <adeht> if they're the same in value and type, they're eql
15:15:55 <tfb> but that intention is not met by implementations
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15:16:23 <tfb> (at least not by two we have tried)
15:16:43 <pkhuong> except that nans and signed zeros throw a wrench in that intention.
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15:17:57 <adeht> (actually I should've also quoted the otherwise clause ;)
15:18:43 *Xach* discovers tinaa tries to asdf-install its own dependencies
15:18:53 <Xach> ...in its .asd file, that is
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15:20:02 <tfb> Actually, it turns out that the spec is completely clear on these float issues (at least the zero one): "(= 0.0 -0.0) is always true. If there is a minus zero, (eql -0.0 0.0) is false, otherwise it is true. "
15:20:09 <tfb> from FLOAT section
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15:20:47 <tfb> pkhuong: and it turns out that yes, signed zeros are considered in the spec
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15:21:38 <adeht> tfb: that's good because that's the behavior I'd expect
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15:24:03 <adeht> tfb: I suppose "mathematical value" doesn't make much sense with floating-point :)
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15:24:37 <jmckitrick> I'm experimenting with flet and macrolet, and ran into a scope question....
15:24:39 <jmckitrick> http://paste.lisp.org/+29KX
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15:25:57 <jmckitrick> The function BAZ does not compile, but the others do.  Yet, it seems the call to FOO-2 defined in the FLET should work inside the MACROLET form.  But it does not.
15:26:20 <jmckitrick> Yet the QUUX version works.
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15:27:04 <p_l> hmm... anyone knows of a library variant of git?
15:27:48 <Xach> p_l: http://github.com/froydnj/glitter
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15:28:23 <Adlai> jmckitrick, "the consequences are undefined if the local macro definitions reference any local variable or function bindings that are visible in that lexical environment."
15:28:27 <Adlai> clhs macrolet
15:28:27 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
15:28:32 <p_l> thx. Now to turn that into object storage...
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15:29:44 <p_l> versioning of CLOS classes would be ... interesting :)
15:30:42 <Xach> p_l: joe marshall wrote a little bit about that
15:31:04 <jmckitrick> Adlai: ah, thanks.  I wonder why that's an unusual edge case..
15:31:09 <Xach> http://eval.apply.googlepages.com/changesafe.html
15:31:56 <Adlai> jmckitrick, because the macrolet definitions run at compile time, before the lexical environment has actual values
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15:32:53 <pkhuong> tfb: cool, we have that at least. I'm really surprised by how little float arithmetic is specified considering they had kahan as an advisor.
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15:33:17 <jmckitrick> Ah, I see.  So if I don't want the FLET function out in the namespace, it's best to just keep it inside the macro body, then, right?
15:33:50 <Adlai> you could put it there, yeah
15:34:13 <tfb> pkhuong: I suspect might have been exhaustion
15:34:51 <tfb> pkhuong: also perhaps some major implementations which might not have conformed if they did <x>
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15:34:55 <jmckitrick> Excellent, thanks for the advice.
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15:42:14 <kiuma> I'm doing (coerce lst 'vector) but I'm having -> The value of VECTOR is #(), which is not of type (VECTOR (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8))
15:42:34 <kiuma> tp what sould I coerce ?
15:42:57 <pkhuong> kiuma: You can coerce to a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) 1), or make-array and initial-contents.
15:43:12 <compaq> can anyone write some code for me.  I am running sawfish, and I want to run xcompmgr and cairo-dock on startup, I can write the script in bash, but not in lisp
15:43:15 <drewc`> kiuma: if your vector is #(), just use NIL :P
15:43:16 <pkhuong> Or, even better, work with vectors everywhere.
15:43:28 <drewc`> compaq: no
15:44:10 <Xach> kiuma: what function is expecting octet vectors?
15:44:16 <compaq> how do you run a program name in a lisp script?
15:44:50 <kiuma> Xach, http://paste.lisp.org/display/105730
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15:45:37 <pkhuong> kiuma: vector-push-extend.
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15:50:31 <drewc`> compaq: this channel is about common lisp. librep barely qualifies as a lisp, and is certainly not a common lisp.
15:51:04 <compaq> drewc`, common lisp isn't compatible with sawfish?
15:51:30 <Xach> compaq: nope.
15:51:39 <compaq> drewc`, because I am interesting in learning the basics of lisp programming for sawfish
15:51:58 <compaq> ok guys thanks for the fyi
15:52:14 <compaq> could you tell me what kind of lisp goes with sawfish?
15:52:28 <drewc`> compaq: have you tried google? google will tell you that sawfish uses librep :
15:52:35 <drewc`> http://librep.sourceforge.net/
15:52:53 <compaq> ok source for intrusion, thanks for the help, bye then
15:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover> compaq: Try (system "/path/to/binary")
15:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I give no guarantees, though.
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15:54:42 <p_l> compaq: sawfish afaik used some scheme implementation, so  #scheme@freenode.net
15:55:18 <Xach> p_l: nope.
15:55:23 <Xach> p_l: as drewc mentioned, it uses librep.
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15:55:53 <p_l> Xach: damn, missed that. Though I always thought it used guile or something like that.
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15:56:09 <Xach> nope. it's not as schemey as some little lisps.
15:56:38 <p_l> haven't seen Sawfish since GNOME 1.4, back when there was still some mention of "Lisp is going to be main GNU extension language" ;P
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16:04:08 <drewc`> ``GNU will be able to run Unix programs, but will not be identical to Unix [...] Both C and Lisp will be available as system programming languages.''
16:04:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Bah, why are the cool things always left out?
16:04:56 <p_l> still, there's no GNU OS yet
16:05:08 <drewc`> p_l: tell that to RMS?
16:05:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Better, don't. He has swords, remember?
16:05:50 <drewc`> GNU/Linux or GNU/Hurd are not GNU OS's?
16:05:53 <p_l> drewc`: Only if at range of >500 m and with battle rifle
16:06:11 <koollman> Hurd is a gnu os. or rather... would be. if it was developped ;)
16:06:27 <p_l> drewc`: I'm not really sure regarding the name "GNU/Linux"
16:06:49 <Guthur> Debian refer to it as GNU/Linux
16:07:01 <p_l> it was more fitting long time ago, but now? Glibc and GNU coretools are easily replaced.
16:07:10 <Guthur> And think RMS said it was acceptable as well
16:07:12 <p_l> Guthur: Debian for a long time was RMS' pet distro
16:07:17 <Guthur> Linus didn't though
16:07:32 <drewc`> p_l: huh? RMS's pet distro? what exactly does that mean?
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16:07:36 <koollman> Guthur: not really. it was more ... debian called it linux, and rms said it was gnu/linux. then debian said ok, it is.
16:07:53 <p_l> drewc`: official blessing as a "free" distro ^_-
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16:08:07 <koollman> drewc`: officially considered 'the distro to use', by RMS and the FSF. (not anymore, though)
16:08:19 <Guthur> Well guys then lets get cracking on the Lisp OS, hehe
16:09:35 <Phantom_Hoover> ...Won't you need a proper compiler?
16:09:46 <drewc`> GNU/Linux is an operating system that uses the GNU runtime and userspace with the Linux Kernel. If you replace glibc and the userspace GNU tools, then it's no longer GNU... this isn't hard to understand folks :)
16:10:15 <drewc`> Linux is a kernel, and a kernel does not an operating system make :)
16:10:31 <p_l> drewc`: I know :)
16:10:41 <Guthur> Chicken and egg maybe
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16:10:47 <drewc`> but to say there is no GNU os because the linux kernel wasn't developed at GNU is somewhat silly...
16:10:50 <Guthur> But I think GNU had the chicken first
16:10:51 <drewc`> is there a Mac OS?
16:11:34 <Guthur> drewc`, Well it must not be complete yet then, there is non system level Lisp
16:11:47 <Guthur> non/no
16:12:15 <p_l> drewc`: What I meant was more about the fact that GNU/Linux isn't exactly considered GNU OS even by FSF... and I do remember horror of seeing some crazy/idiotic function prototypes in glibc that were no-ops everywhere except "future use in Hurd"
16:12:54 <drewc`> Guthur: http://abstractnonsense.com/schemix/ <----- kernel level lisp
16:13:29 <Guthur> If Jobs says there is a Mac Dodo then it has indeed been brought back from extinction and was designed by Apple marketing department
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16:13:46 <drewc`> p_l: bullshit :
16:13:48 <drewc`> http://www.gnu.org/
16:14:01 <Phantom_Hoover> For system-level Lisp there's also Movitz.
16:14:10 <p_l> drewc`: ok, maybe it changed. I've got biased against GNU in last few years
16:14:10 <drewc`> p_l: linux is mentioned on the front page :)
16:14:21 *drewc`* has never liked GNU much
16:14:28 <drewc`> but i know the facts :)
16:14:39 <p_l> it's just that for a long time I heard about Linux being "stopgap till we get Hurd running" ;P
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16:15:57 <Guthur> drewc`, on the same page it says "Hurd, GNU's kernel "
16:16:07 <drewc`> Guthur: kernel != operating system
16:16:19 <Guthur> And that GNU and Linux, is GNU/Linux operating system
16:16:29 <drewc`> sigh.
16:16:32 <Guthur> not the GNU OS
16:16:38 <drewc`> Guthur: you know what? I don't give a flying fuck.
16:16:49 <drewc`> arguing about naming is boring
16:16:50 <Guthur> neither do I really
16:17:01 <Guthur> I'm just having some downtime
16:17:11 <Guthur> I was up late programming last night
16:17:22 <p_l> let's code
16:17:25 <p_l> minion: chant
16:17:25 <minion> MORE ABOUT THE FACT
16:17:29 <Guthur> lol
16:17:30 <p_l> lol
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16:17:42 <Guthur> You couldn't make that up
16:17:58 <Phantom_Hoover> minion: chant
16:17:58 <minion> MORE ABOUT THE FACT
16:18:05 <drewc`> you can insist all you want that the kernel GNU, but when "GNU is often used with the kernel Linux", appears on the page, you're just arse-talking... what point are you trying to make?
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16:19:09 <Guthur> drewc`, Non, you brought up GNU
16:19:17 *p_l* notes he talks illogically and shuts up. EOT
16:20:03 <drewc`> Guthur: p_l brought up GNU actually.... your reading comprehension skills could use a little work :P
16:20:21 <Guthur> drewc`, I may have missed the beginning
16:20:38 <Guthur> the first comment for me was...
16:20:39 <Guthur> <drewc`> ``GNU will be able to run Unix programs, but will not be identical to Unix [...] Both C and Lisp will be available as system programming languages.''
16:20:55 <drewc`> Guthur: are you now arguing with me over who said what when?
16:21:29 <Guthur> meh, whatever
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16:21:55 <drewc`> Guthur: ahh... you came after the beginning.
16:22:15 <Guthur> indeed, sorry for jumping the gone
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16:22:24 <drewc`> it's not reading comprehension, just context you are missing i suppose.
16:22:25 <Guthur> gone/gun
16:22:43 <Guthur> I'm moving on to some other distraction now
16:23:11 <stassats> to a mortar?
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16:29:51 <Guthur> stassats: I upgraded http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2S4_Tyulpan.jpg
16:30:27 <stassats> that's a nice flower
16:30:53 <Guthur> Ye the dutch grow quite a few apparently
16:31:45 <drewc`> i remember how to take care of those things :
16:31:46 <drewc`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A-10_Thunderbolt_II_In-flight-2.jpg
16:31:47 <Guthur> That's of Russian origin, obvious, they do flowers different over your way
16:31:58 <drewc`> works for flowers and tanks
16:32:31 <drewc`> those who will remember, will remember it like this:
16:32:33 <drewc`> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A-10_Tank_Killer_Coverart.png
16:33:59 <p_l> http://www.ausairpower.net/5P85SE-9M96E2-Quad-Launcher-MAKS-MiroslavGyurosi-1S.jpg  <--- takes care of aircrafts ;-)
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16:34:57 <drewc`> p_l: i can beat that... check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
16:35:01 <Guthur> The A10 II is only about 60mph faster than the top speed of the supermarine spitfire
16:35:16 <p_l> drewc`: heh.
16:35:19 <fe[nl]ix> isn't this all a bit off-topic ?
16:35:25 <p_l> yep
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16:36:12 <p_l> to go a little back to on-topic - anyone here tried to use AllegroCache and AllegroGraph from other CL implementations?
16:36:41 <drewc`> p_l: do they even make them for common lisp?
16:37:12 <drewc`> I was under the impression that they were written specificially for and an Allegro CL
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16:37:22 <drewc`> and in*
16:38:11 <p_l> Well, I do recall about some people using it from Java (buying AllegroCache/Graph as a server product)
16:39:50 <drewc`> p_l: what specific features do you need? (that rucksack doesn't offer)
16:42:40 <drewc`> p_l: it seems like an expensive idea: buying an ACL cache/graph licences just to use it as a DB server
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16:44:12 <p_l> drewc`: text indexing, clustering, distributed db... those are the ones I can see now as "distinguishing features". I can do without them, but I haven't yet fully evaluated rucksack (which is on TODO list)
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16:46:17 <drewc`> i use montezuma indexes stored in rucksack for full text indexing. Clustering and distributed DB are not (yet) available. I've done some work on the latter, but stopped after my performance tests: we don't need it yet, and when we do we can afford to write it :)
16:46:56 <pmd> i can't resist: (defun (foo x) (* x x)) :D -- schemer
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16:47:16 <pmd> (about a message some hours ago)
16:47:45 <stassats> well, it was (x * x)
16:47:45 <drewc`> pmd: (defun foo'x (* quote x))
16:47:58 <stassats> so it's a mix of scheme, cl, and something else
16:48:10 <pmd> stassats: lol! yeah i should've copy-paste it
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16:48:28 <dlowe> pmd: you mean define?
16:48:40 <pmd> dlowe: let me copy-paste it for you
16:48:53 <p_l> drewc`: do you have any data on storage/memory usage of rucksack?
16:49:14 <pmd> >>> right tight, but how come it can't be (defun (bla x) (* x x)) ?
16:49:27 <pmd> (note, that was not me)
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16:49:54 <p_l> drewc`: I'm afraid I'm mixing some persistence systems which load all the data into image at all times, and I'm not sure it's feasible for my projects
16:50:25 <pmd> (i apologize for laughting at beginner's mistakes, it's just that human brains try to correlate things really hard)
16:50:39 <stassats> pmd: anyway, you're bit late, it was already pointed out about scheme
16:51:57 <pmd> stassats: yeah, i just couldn't resist letting it out loud here
16:52:04 <pmd> even if late
16:52:20 <drewc`> p_l: memory usage? it depends on the size of your cache. Storage? depends on how much data you are storing and how you index it.
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16:52:20 <stassats> next time use a larger resistor
16:52:41 <pmd> it would generate heat
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16:53:27 <drewc`> p_l: with a large enough cache,rucksack can be used as a prevelance scheme or sorts. With a small enough cache, it's almost all on disk.
16:53:33 <drewc`> of sorts*
16:54:34 <p_l> drewc`: ok, so I confused rucksack with some other store that belonged to the "let's load all storage into image at startup" category
16:54:39 <p_l> good to know
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16:55:31 *stassats* likes "let's load everything" approach
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16:55:43 <drewc`> stassats: because RAM is cheap now! :)
16:56:00 <stassats> that's right
16:56:09 <p_l> stassats: until you end up with 32bit address space and 10Gb of data ;-)
16:56:16 <drewc`> unfortunately, not cheap enough for my uses
16:56:38 *Xach* was pleased to move his usenet search from memory to disk without a terrible speed hit
16:56:49 <p_l> (hypothetical situation - the actual issue is more like "RAM is still not cheap enough")
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16:57:25 <drewc`> p_l: we have that much data in our current project, all in rucksacks
16:57:58 <drewc`> (multiple.. we decided that we'd 'shard' our data from the start)
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17:01:59 <p_l> drewc`: nice, I think I found a new favourite lib :)
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17:07:15 <drewc`> p_l: warning: it has one major flaw right now in that all transaction are serial. make sure you use fin-grained with-transaction forms if you have multiple cores that you want to keep spinning.
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17:08:01 <drewc`> p_l: i'm working on plugging in a better transaction mechanism (either MVCC or direct-update or something else based on pcos's CSTM work)
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17:17:59 <p_l> drewc`: ok
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17:47:40 <viric> hallo
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17:48:03 <viric> I'm beginning with common lisp...
17:48:12 <viric> and I just found it hard to recall how to specify a pathname
17:48:21 <viric> I could not manage to get that from the hyperspec...
17:48:29 <viric> I remember something like #P"pathname"
17:48:40 <viric> Where should I have a look at, to find this?
17:48:46 <p_l> clhs pathname
17:48:47 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pn.htm
17:49:12 <viric> ahhh good
17:49:13 <p_l> clhs 19
17:49:13 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_.htm
17:49:19 <p_l> this one is better starting point
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17:50:31 <viric> mm I may be doing something wrong
17:50:36 <viric> (cl-fad::list-directory #P"/nix/store")
17:50:38 <viric> what is wrong in that?
17:51:21 <viric> I may be ignoring something fundamental :)
17:51:56 <viric> sbcl says The variable /NIX/STORE is unbound.
17:52:16 <fe[nl]ix> rpg: ping
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17:53:00 <p_l> viric: can you paste the whole message (through lisppaste)
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17:54:51 <viric> ok, it was the double colon :)
17:55:00 <viric> p_l: I could go beyond. Thank you :)
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18:20:32 <leo2007> I'm debugging a bug in cl-plplot and I have been asked to "If so, can you change how slime interacts with the lisp process so that it does not use interrupts?"
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18:20:43 <leo2007> any idea how to do that?
18:21:39 <nixeagle> leo2007: missed the question, could you re-ask for me?
18:21:59 <viric> hmm
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18:22:20 <rpg> fe[nl]ix: just back from lunch
18:22:53 <viric> I want to read all the lines from a stream; how would you do that? loop?
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18:23:13 <p_l> viric: yeah
18:23:13 <Xach> viric: (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) while line <do something with line>)
18:23:16 <nixeagle> viric: if its a subset of char yea
18:23:21 <leo2007> I want to configure slime so that it does not use interrupts when interacting with lisp/swank. nixeagle like this.
18:23:55 <nixeagle> leo2007: ok what interrupts, swank usually runs on its own thread
18:24:06 <fe[nl]ix> rpg: asdf 1.655(in last month's ECL release) behaves as asdf1 wrt. :pathname
18:24:53 <rpg> fe[nl]ix: I'm not entirely surprised --- all of the most recent updates to ASDF I've seen have to do with pathname merging, and there have been a flurry.
18:24:57 <viric> yes, char.
18:25:16 <viric> I want to accumulate the lines in a list.
18:25:17 <leo2007> nixeagle: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.graphics.plplot.user/92/focus=115
18:25:28 <fe[nl]ix> rpg: ECL HEAD has 1.704 . is that recent enough ?
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18:25:35 <leo2007> that was the crash I reported and the followup ask me to change ...
18:25:39 <viric> I'm using a (let (v) (loop ... (append v line)))
18:25:43 <viric> does that do any sense?
18:25:55 <Xach> viric: no.
18:25:57 <viric> - I'm only starting on clisp... sorry for the silly questions
18:26:02 <Xach> viric: use (loop ... collect line)
18:26:05 <nixeagle> leo2007: do you get some sort of backtrace from slime?
18:26:30 <viric> And the result of the loop form will be the collection?
18:26:32 <nixeagle> If its in that thread, link me to where that is, looks rather long :P
18:26:48 <rpg> fe[nl]ix: No, I don't think so.  We're on 1.728 and 1.728 and 1.725 both seem to have pathname-relevant bug fixes.
18:27:09 <nixeagle> viric: you have an repl, try it ;). (with-input-from-string (...) ...) ;)
18:27:16 <leo2007> nixeagle: does this count http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.graphics.plplot.user/114?
18:27:18 <viric> I'm trying in the repl, yes.
18:27:29 <p_l> ... the LISP routing protocol is chock-full of Lisp shoutouts...
18:27:35 <rpg> fe[n]lix: 1.718 even seems to have a patch specifically for ECL
18:27:53 <nixeagle> leo2007: yeah that is what I wanted, give me a sec ^-^
18:27:54 <viric> I have the stream from a (run-program)
18:28:03 <leo2007> nixeagle: thanks in advance.
18:28:04 <rpg> I pushed a test and doc update, that hasn't yet reached a tag number...
18:28:24 <viric> hmmm that (loop ... collect line) works terribly slow;
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18:29:06 <nixeagle> leo2007: well I'm just looking to see if I can spot something halfway interesting to me. I can't promise a solution. Can you link me to the app so I can try to reproduce?
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18:29:45 <viric>     (loop for line = ( read-line s nil) collect line )))
18:30:02 <leo2007> nixeagle: I am using http://www.cliki.net/cl-plplot which is a cffi binding to http://plplot.sourceforge.net/
18:30:04 <viric> I think that ends in an infinite loop
18:30:13 <dlowe> viric: stick a while line in there
18:30:19 <nixeagle> leo2007: ok got some source code to make me crash what I got?
18:30:25 <nixeagle> I'll grab a copy of that
18:30:45 <viric> j    (loop for line = ( read-line s nil) while line collect line )))
18:30:48 <viric> dlowe: thits?
18:30:50 <viric> this?
18:30:55 <dlowe> viric: yup
18:31:00 <viric> but that form returns 'nil'
18:31:02 <nixeagle> I've used this in the past ^-^
18:31:25 <nixeagle> but lets see, I'll dig for some of my code too ^-^
18:31:30 <dlowe> viric: then you're not getting a line
18:31:46 <viric> hm
18:32:06 <leo2007> nixeagle: http://paste.lisp.org/display/105741
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18:33:01 <leo2007> sorry missing one line (defparameter *plot-device* "xcairo")
18:33:06 <viric> Let me paste the function
18:33:10 <viric> (defun list-local-store ()
18:33:10 <viric>   (let* ((p (run-program "nix-store" '("--gc" "--print-live") :output :stream))
18:33:10 <viric>          (s (process-output p)) v)
18:33:10 <viric>     (loop for line = ( read-line s nil) while line collect line )))
18:33:32 <viric> that command gives lots of lines
18:33:53 <viric> 11929 lines according to |wc -l
18:34:20 <nixeagle> leo2007: thanks
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18:35:56 <nixeagle> leo2007: ok, I had to run this thing twice to get the unhandled memory fault error
18:36:15 <viric> ahh... run-program needs something to run that on PATH iirc
18:36:19 <leo2007> nixeagle: yes
18:36:25 <leo2007> nixeagle: are you using plplot?
18:36:29 <nixeagle> leo2007: yes
18:36:52 <nixeagle> leo2007: I'm using sbcl and getting the same thing. what you could try doing is running this from another thread from slime
18:36:53 <leo2007> nixeagle: that's great!
18:37:04 <nixeagle> I'm going to try that now
18:37:33 <leo2007> nixeagle: I can crash lisp in ccl too.
18:37:50 <nixeagle> leo2007: I'm not crashing sbcl, just getting unhandled memory faults
18:37:57 <nixeagle> and I'm getting this even from another thread
18:38:09 <nixeagle> leo2007: http://gist.github.com/417541
18:38:48 <nixeagle> I'm going to try this with no slime now
18:39:13 <leo2007> nixeagle: it works with no slime.
18:39:31 <leo2007> I tried it directly in the repl in the terminal running lisp.
18:39:40 <nixeagle> leo2007: weird, reminds me of that sbcl bug where deleting a package twice and a few other things caused lisp lockage
18:40:10 <nixeagle> leo2007: eg I'm suspecting a lock is not getting released or is being released when it should not be.
18:40:11 <leo2007> but this also happens in ccl.
18:40:27 <nixeagle> I'm going to try spawning a thread in the prompt :)
18:40:35 <leo2007> ok
18:40:41 <nixeagle> leo2007: it happens in sbcl too, so it does not matter what implementation this is
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18:40:58 <leo2007> if you can get rid of this bug it will be very welcome.
18:41:12 <nixeagle> leo2007: I doubt I can get rid of it. I'm just trying to reproduce it
18:41:34 <nixeagle> I've used this library in the past, which is why I was interested after you asked me :)
18:41:58 <leo2007> nixeagle: I am helpless with this except asking for help.
18:42:19 <nixeagle> leo2007: I'm aware, but I'm not going to be able to assist more then trying to find a way to reproduce without slime
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18:42:44 <nixeagle> this reminds me very strongly of an sbcl bug I ran into and produced a working testcase for
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18:43:40 <leo2007> nixeagle: could you advice me on how to answer this http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.graphics.plplot.user/115?
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18:45:49 <nixeagle> leo2007: hey cool just got your unhandled memory fault in the terminal :>
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18:46:26 <leo2007> I think it will be easier to debug for someone not using slime.
18:46:42 <nixeagle> leo2007: that means I think the bug can be reproduced outside of slime (which helps bigtime)
18:46:54 <leo2007> i agree.
18:46:56 <nixeagle> but let me make sure its not due to my new debian install not having xcairo
18:47:49 <nixeagle> leo2007: I do get this:
18:47:53 <nixeagle> *** PLPLOT WARNING *** plsdev: Must be called before plinit.
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18:48:33 <nixeagle> but this all could be because I don't have part of the puzzle, let me grab that :>
18:49:18 <leo2007> nixeagle: in the code it is before plinit.
18:50:11 <nixeagle> leo2007: ok, weird that I get that error. let me paste the log out to you, its been a while since I used this and part of this may be because I don't have xcairo (fixing that now)
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18:50:31 <nixeagle> but I have the same lisp side machine fault outside of slime, maybe you can reproduce
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18:51:57 <nixeagle> leo2007: http://gist.github.com/417561
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18:52:54 <nixeagle> leo2007: dunno if you can reproduce that sequence, the key part here is calling your stuff from another thread instead of calling from just the repl
18:53:10 <nixeagle> notice the (bt:make-thread (lambda () ....) :name "test-bug") part
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18:54:04 <leo2007> nixeagle: to workaround this bug my sbcl is actually single-threaded.
18:54:16 <leo2007> it doesn't crash.
18:55:20 <leo2007> nixeagle: do you have ccl's equivalent to that?
18:55:44 <nixeagle> leo2007: ok, well what I would do in your place is reproduce this bug on your machine using (bt:make-thread (lambda () ....) :name "blah") and take _those_ logs to the mailing list. Removing slime means the developers can't ask you to run it without interrupts and whatnot because there is _no_ slime involved. (from what I'm seeing my guess is a lock somewhere is or is not being held).
18:56:41 <leo2007> nixeagle: ok. thanks a lot.
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18:56:59 <nixeagle> what I just pasted is a fairly simple testcase that I"d think the developers might actually be able to work from as it removes the slime complexity. (not everyone including myself really knows what all slime is doing that is not normally in a lisp environment so folks tend to question if the bug is a result of _slime_).
18:57:30 <nixeagle> leo2007: the key thing here... do this yourself because my lacking xcairo in that paste can be a factor.
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18:58:24 <leo2007> ok, i will take of this bit.
18:58:35 <leo2007> really appreciate your input.
18:58:40 <nixeagle> leo2007: no, reproduce it yourself
18:58:52 <nixeagle> I don't know that not having xcairo is actually inducing a bug
18:59:01 <nixeagle> I can't rule that out
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18:59:44 <leo2007> nixeagle: I have found xwin not to have this crash problem that I am having. Crashes only happen with new drivers such as xcairo or qtwidget.
19:00:19 <nixeagle> leo2007: sure, but I simply don't have xcairo and that alone might be the cause of my issue in that gist.
19:00:40 <nixeagle> What I'm saying is my gist has _two_ potential issues, your bug, and the lack of xcairo. Its not clear to anyone which is the problem.
19:02:16 <nixeagle> leo2007: the steps to reproduce are right there in the gist, I left out defining WITH-PLOT-WINDOW, but other then that... that gist is a transcript.
19:05:47 <leo2007> ok; i'm downloading a multi-threaded sbcl.
19:06:13 <viric> hmm I have a new problem I don't know how to solve
19:07:08 <viric> I want to compare two strings; they will have a common prefix, until I find a character that does not match. I want to know if that character is a number of not.
19:07:28 <Xach> viric: (digit-char-p (mismatch string1 string2))
19:07:28 <leo2007> nixeagle: how to force sbcl to always recompile?
19:07:31 <viric> Would you "loop" along the sequence, and at the first non-match, you would check if it is a number?
19:07:45 <viric> Xach: really that simple?
19:07:49 <Xach> viric: really.
19:07:53 <nixeagle> leo2007: it always recompiles
19:07:54 <viric> can't believe :)
19:07:58 <viric> I'll try
19:08:02 <Xach> Try it, friend, and believe.
19:08:07 <nixeagle> you have to go out of your way to make it interpret
19:08:13 <Xach> viric: I'm wrong, actually.
19:08:31 <Xach> viric: Do you want to test the character in string1 or string2?
19:08:53 <Xach> viric: mismatch gives you an integer index, but you have to use that index as an argument to e.g. AREF or CHAR
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19:09:07 <Xach> it also might return NIL if there is no mismatch, and that's not a suitable index
19:09:10 <leo2007> nixeagle: i'm tired of sbcl asking this http://paste.lisp.org/display/105743
19:09:38 <Xach> leo2007: see http://cliki.net/asdf for a recipe to automatically work around that
19:10:00 <nixeagle> thanks Xach :) I usually use zsh and rm to do rm **/*.fasl ;)
19:10:14 <Xach> that is less than wonderful
19:10:57 <nixeagle> Xach: I'd imagine ^-^
19:11:01 <nixeagle> it works though :)
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19:12:06 <leo2007> Xach: thanks; i used to use rm
19:12:24 *Xach* uses find ... -delete sometimes
19:12:30 *Xach* mostly uses that asdf recipe though
19:12:59 <leo2007> Xach: that's what I meant.
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19:14:49 <leo2007> nixeagle: where is package "BT"?
19:14:55 <leo2007> I'm getting package "BT" not found
19:16:22 <viric> Xach: ah ok
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19:18:11 <nixeagle> leo2007: http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/
19:18:33 <leo2007> ok thanks.
19:18:37 <nixeagle> you probably already have it
19:18:47 <leo2007> I thought that was part of sbcl. yes, I have it.
19:18:50 <nixeagle> its one of the few libraries that is literally everywhere ;)
19:19:02 <nixeagle> leo2007: it is an independent portability library for threads
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19:19:21 <nixeagle> but as I said its everywhere
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19:22:22 <leo2007> nixeagle: I got the Unhandled memory fault at #x90.
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19:23:22 <nixeagle> leo2007: great, that means the testcase is valid without slime which is very very important to the cl-plplot developers. If you send that up with the right steps and whatnot the devs simply can't blame slime as its not even in the picture.
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19:38:54 <_3b`> fe[nl]ix: ok, that explains that error then. Is send-to to one socket from multiple threads any safer?
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19:59:17 <vng> G9!
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20:06:31 <jlf`> any ecl people around?  (disassemble (compile nil (lambda (a b c) (+ a b c)))) -> ;;; Warning: Cannot disassemble the binary function #<compiled-function 000000010248fe00> because I do not have its source code.
20:08:18 <p_l> jlf`: ECL can't disassemble it because it was compiled into C and loaded
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20:11:19 <jlf`> p_l: ok, i wasn't aware of that limitation. thanks.
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20:35:29 <viric> how can I get all values in a sequence that match a condition?
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20:36:50 <adeht> clhs remove-if-not
20:36:50 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm
20:37:15 <viric> ahh ok
20:37:20 <viric> thx!
20:37:21 <magius_pendragon> I've a kinda strange question. If I have packages A and B, and a function A::f, is it possible to redefine f in B s.t. A uses B's definition instead? Assume I don't want to use classes / generics
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20:38:47 <adeht> magius_pendragon: (in-package B) (defun A::f ...) .. packages contain symbols, not functions or anything else
20:39:09 <viric> and is there any predicate that allows me to sort a list of strings in alphabetical order?
20:39:20 <adeht> clhs string<
20:39:20 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stgeq_.htm
20:39:28 <viric> great!
20:39:39 <adeht> minion: tell viric about pcl
20:39:40 <minion> viric: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
20:39:50 <magius_pendragon> adeht: what if I wanted to redefine a struct?
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20:40:06 <viric> minion: I'm reading it...
20:40:09 <minion> what is ``it''?
20:40:10 <adeht> magius_pendragon: the consequences of redefining structs are not specified
20:40:13 <viric> minion: but in parallel I'm trying to make a useful program
20:40:13 <minion> you speak nonsense
20:40:15 <viric> minion: pcl
20:40:15 <minion> pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
20:40:34 <viric> ahh
20:40:41 <viric> I had a dialog with a bot
20:40:53 <viric> these things happen.
20:40:56 <adeht> minion: are you a bot?
20:40:56 <minion> Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 47 seconds is too many.
20:40:59 <adeht> :(
20:41:20 <viric> I start doubting it is a bot or not
20:41:22 <viric> :)
20:42:29 <nus> magius_pendragon, which f would package C depending on both A and B use?
20:46:26 <viric> In a lisp program...
20:46:34 <viric> the return value should be only that of the last form in the file, isn't it?
20:46:55 <viric> I have some (setq ... ) lines, and its values appear in stdout when I run the program (a sbcl script)
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20:48:17 <magius_pendragon> nus: preferably B, but I agree it's ill-defined
20:48:24 <magius_pendragon> nus: and I'm okay with it being ill-defined
20:49:45 <nus> magius_pendragon, I believe what you really want is A1 (or (An+1)) instead of B
20:50:08 <nus> ie versioned packages/symbols
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20:51:16 <magius_pendragon> nus: not sure what you mean by that. What I really want is A exports f1, and has internal function A::f. B uses A, redefines f and exports f2. Package C uses A,B. f1 should use A::f, f2 should use B::f
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21:00:27 <adeht> magius_pendragon: you don't seem to grasp packages.  they contain, export, import symbols.. this has nothing to do with functions
21:00:47 <nus> magius_pendragon, well, then, as long as C cares f2 and f1 are different things and could as well be named foo and bar. The whole point of exporting a symbol is to provide uniform interface to the internal implementation. As long as there're only two packages in the system, the naming/exporting doesn't matter.
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21:01:58 <Zhivago> magius: See 'shadow'.
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21:02:59 <Zhivago> B uses A, shadowing f. Defines its own f.
21:05:14 <viric> are all 'and arguments evaluated?
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21:06:54 <adeht> viric: you were twice given a link to the spec.  why can't you check the answer to that question there?
21:07:31 <viric> understood.
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21:11:42 <Zhivago> viric: Possibly.
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21:14:12 <viric> (subseq x (- (length x) 5) (- (length x) 1)) ".drv")
21:14:13 <viric> argh
21:14:25 <viric> not meant for the channel.
21:14:31 <viric> Zhivago: I understood reading the ht. thank you.
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22:04:09 <p_l> # sounds like something carried by spiders... <--- from OpenGenera init files xD
22:04:21 <p_l> (about "esac" in bourne shell)
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22:08:47 <Phoodus> carried by eSpiders
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22:18:01 <p_l> afk - VLM disassembled :3
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22:22:35 <p_l> (unlike the amd64 snap4, the original VLM2 is rather easier to disassemble)
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22:31:52 <bytecolor> it's like xmas when I can compile a dozen-file system and get zero warnings on sbcl ;)
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23:51:11 <Xach> mixalot!
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23:58:33 <_3b`> hmm, still leaking memory somewhere :(
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23:59:14 <_3b`> '927,276,032 bytes for 19,096,384 instance objects.' isn't exactly what i was looking for :p