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[Quit: Leaving.] 04:06:04 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:28 -!- Lithos [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 04:12:29 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:13:43 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-181-25.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:24 linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 04:15:22 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:15:32 -!- linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:21 deech [~user@24-107-146-101.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:31:53 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.96.69.29] has joined #lisp 04:33:54 symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:36 vng [~user@123.20.87.49] has joined #lisp 04:35:09 Good morning! 04:38:17 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 04:38:53 -!- rme [rme@clozure-42E6C71B.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:38:53 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-123-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:55:21 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:56:11 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:56:30 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 04:56:32 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 04:56:32 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 04:57:10 plage [~user@91.113.251.138] has joined #lisp 04:57:14 Good morning! 04:57:22 hello plage 04:57:48 Hey vng! What day are you leaving? 04:58:17 plage: June 10th 04:58:41 Oh, so maybe we will meet before you leave! 04:58:57 plage: yeah, great! 04:59:39 pnq [~gaiug@AC810AF8.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:08 plage: Do you have any presentation about CL when you come? 05:07:56 plage: If yes, I am going to attend. :) 05:09:21 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 05:09:31 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:12:42 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:15:51 vng: I was planning to, yes. 05:16:21 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:16:22 vng: But probably more likely after you have left, given how busy the students are. 05:22:29 -!- waterless_cloud [~waterless@adsl-75-56-209-205.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 05:24:02 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:26 Borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:29 milanj [~milanj_@109.92.212.54] has joined #lisp 05:27:01 -!- psilord2 [~psilord@adsl-75-42-235-187.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 05:30:54 rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:05 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-btzjopytxbnbjvjs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:34:05 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 05:41:51 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.96.69.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:43:07 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:46:48 -!- plage [~user@91.113.251.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:53:00 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-68-8.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:57:05 lyra [~user@dsl-216-221-38-33.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 05:57:32 plage [~user@91.113.251.138] has joined #lisp 05:59:05 antifuchs: We made it to Vienna, and nobody lost our bags! 06:01:29 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-252-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:08 -!- lyra [~user@dsl-216-221-38-33.aei.ca] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:02:39 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:09:49 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.156.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:12:32 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.128.137] has left #lisp 06:13:09 -!- plage [~user@91.113.251.138] has left #lisp 06:16:24 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-150-179.aei.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:18:54 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.92.212.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:19:16 -!- aanand [~aanand@113.193.105.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:22:35 aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has joined #lisp 06:37:57 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:39:39 spahn [~b@h207.49.23.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:35 there is nothing you can do in Lisp that you can't do in c 06:40:55 you can have complete functional model in c with function pointers and structs 06:41:19 no one stops you 06:41:20 and encasulation of data members in the structs, to control state 06:41:22 sure, same with machine code 06:42:34 no not same 06:43:08 please, do not continue this discussion, it's boring 06:48:26 in scheme: (define foo (lambda (a b) (+ a b))) 06:48:30 in c++ 06:48:37 Lambda((int a, int b), int, return a+b) foo; 06:48:40 spahn: stop this 06:48:41 man thats nice 06:48:51 lets truly discus the merits here 06:49:05 plage [~user@91.113.251.133] has joined #lisp 06:49:55 That's not a very interesting troll 06:50:01 note the lack of archaic infix notation in the c++ version 06:50:10 spahn: go away 06:50:21 why 06:50:44 I wanted to discuss teh relative merits of your language vis a vis modern, fully featured languages 06:50:57 spahn: There are none. Happy? 06:51:16 If you ignore it, it will go away. 06:51:51 what, Lisp? 06:51:54 i know 06:51:58 -!- konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:53:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.2] 06:54:24 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:55:03 hmm, I thought minion knew about my `features' web page, and also that of arbscht, but I can't find it now. 06:55:14 minion: features of common lisp? 06:55:14 features of common lisp: Features of Common Lisp, a one-page summary of what makes Common Lisp unique: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 06:55:26 stassats: Ah, thanks! 06:56:00 HEY 06:56:13 they left "obscelscence" off the list 06:56:33 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:56:34 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:53 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:58:07 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.59.220] has joined #lisp 06:58:10 spahn: go already and write in your blog how unwelcome #lisp is, and how lispers are all smug and weenie 07:01:23 -!- plage [~user@91.113.251.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:02:02 spahn: everything you say (or may "think") have been said and "thought" by thousands of trolls before you. so why bother? 07:03:10 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 07:03:37 Because he believes he is a very clever boy 07:04:55 and he's not the first time here, i believe 07:05:53 plage [~user@91.113.251.133] has joined #lisp 07:05:59 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 07:08:18 stassats: I think he is actually. 07:09:47 It is my experience that people like that are afraid that others might know something that makes those others more productive, so in order to avoid that possibility, or being themselves forced to learn something new, they prefer rediculing the others, and their knowledge. 07:10:47 And since they are convinced that others work the same way, they immediately think others will take up the challenge, and try to reciprocate. 07:12:24 i notice similar things in the arts, some people think their taste is superior 07:14:52 My essay "the psychology of learning" is about my observations and their interpretation by professional psychologists. 07:16:53 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:21 plage: I think that the observation that insecure people can become aggressive when challenged isn't a particularly novel one... 07:22:06 -!- plage [~user@91.113.251.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:33:44 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:35:42 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-68-8.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:36:42 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 07:38:45 -!- aja [~aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:41:53 spahn: everything you say (or may "think") have been said and "thought" by thousands of trolls before you. so why bother? 07:42:18 "troll"??? is that how you label anyone you disgree with? 07:42:21 very very mature 07:43:10 I don't think this person is even an adult, so plage's analysis is looking a little too deep 07:44:10 Oddity: you overestimate adults 07:45:04 brb 07:45:04 -!- spahn [~b@h207.49.23.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: MY GOD, IT'S FULL OF PRIMES] 07:45:15 I definitely don't. I just think this one isn't actually an adult. 07:45:21 But I wouldn't be too surprised if I was wrong. 07:45:25 note to channel: don't feel the need to reply to trolls 07:45:32 if they're ignored, they'll go away 07:45:40 if they don't, then I can make them go away 07:45:48 :) 07:46:12 but trying to convince them that they're stupid, evil and wrong only rarely works, and otherwise degrades the SNR 07:47:18 -!- pnq [~gaiug@AC810AF8.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]] 07:49:31 /ignore works 07:49:57 -!- seangrove [~user@180.64.8.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:50:23 seangrove [~user@180.64.8.254] has joined #lisp 07:53:57 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0103-86-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:02:07 I suspect most of these trolls are bedroom programmers who were forced to take a Lisp in university, but since they already know it all (and aren't being taught well), they simply cannot grasp anything different 08:02:40 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06:03 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757799.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:33 Phoodus: How does that explain trolls on non-programmer related forums? (: 08:10:34 xan_ [~xan@216.Red-217-125-15.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:55 lisp trolls on non-programming forums? 08:11:04 Naah. Just trolls in general. 08:11:21 Forced to lisp in school. that would be awesome. 08:11:22 (: 08:11:22 um, I said "these trolls", as in the ones who feel the need to come into #lisp for a quick tirade 08:11:32 -!- Devon [~devon@pool-71-255-169-210.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:11:33 Yes. I realise this now. Sorry for the noise. 08:11:35 -!- seangrove [~user@180.64.8.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:11:36 *schmx* just woke up. 08:11:36 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:11:36 heh 08:11:55 Lisp is the second oldest programming language it is kind of ... old.. 08:12:09 Pretty sure CL isn't that old. 08:12:18 is it the second oldest programming language? I know it's the second oldest programming language _still in use_ 08:12:34 yeah yeah 08:12:39 I'm sure there are other dead languages older 08:12:50 machine code is really frickin' old. Yet C and everythinge inisists of working with it ;) 08:13:04 yeah! what the hell is with that? 08:13:05 "Machine code" is even less "a language" than Lisp 08:13:33 I dissagree 08:13:42 oh forest. what did I do. 08:13:47 I would say that it is even more of a language 08:14:14 Oh forest? 08:14:22 the universal computer language of love 08:14:32 Oddity: Well I can't really say "oh God" not being a believer in gods, can I? 08:14:41 sure you can 08:14:44 *schmx* does believe in forests though. 08:14:55 machine code is a CPU-specific numeric spec. That's about as far away from "universal" as you can get. :) 08:14:56 Thomas_H: Well sure I *can* but it makes me feel sick. 08:14:56 I'm an Atheist too goddamnit 08:14:59 Sure you can. 08:15:05 hehe 08:15:20 arnee [~arnee@a89-182-205-245.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:24 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:15:53 This oldness thing is stupid. spanish is really old.. still people use it. 08:16:11 i don't! 08:16:16 Me neither. 08:16:16 Neither do I 08:16:23 only noobs use spanish 08:16:59 Klingon is older than Common Lisp 08:17:28 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-201-253.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:18:37 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-201-253.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:42 -!- arnee [~arnee@a89-182-205-245.net-htp.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:20:29 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:29 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:20:29 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 08:21:41 -!- dreacu666 [~dreacu666@79.112.89.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:23:12 (define tom (+ (noob)(bored)))(if (someoneteachestomsomethingnew)(haveanawesomeday)(gotobed)) 08:24:37 DEFINE 08:24:41 my frog 08:25:45 wut 08:27:56 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.85.36.92] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:32:16 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-17-12-60.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [] 08:33:00 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-237-1.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 08:36:11 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:38:08 dreacu666 [~dreacu666@79.112.78.67] has joined #lisp 08:39:58 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:43:12 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:46:57 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:50:27 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:52:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:54:07 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:41 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:56:25 -!- pok_ [pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:03:25 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:03:30 Soulman1 [~knute@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:38 pok [pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 09:04:06 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 09:04:35 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:15 sie [~root@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has joined #lisp 09:06:05 http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/files.html <-- In Reading a File one Line at a Time in first example there are two (read-line`s  why, shouldn't there be only one? 09:07:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@216.Red-217-125-15.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:09:07 sie: that's how DO works 09:09:28 the first is initialization, the second is next step 09:09:29 clhs do 09:09:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm 09:09:54 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:09:56 Oh. >.< 09:12:09 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:12:56 ouch, I need equalp for (equalp '(#(1 2 3 4)) '(#(1 2 3 4))) and I need equal for (equal "foo" "foo") 09:13:12 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok016207.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:13:23 Murdox [~uhhh@host86-186-32-95.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:56 -!- pok [pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:13:59 pok [pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 09:16:00 -!- Murdoc [~uhhh@host86-183-28-99.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:16:17 Murdoc [~uhhh@host86-135-168-2.range86-135.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:17:36 -!- Murdox [~uhhh@host86-186-32-95.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:20:41 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:12 If I've a char  #\a how could I make it into #\b or next character? Is there some function for that? 09:22:40 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22:54 sie: char-code and code-char could take you there. 09:23:09 lhz: Yay, was searching for exactly that. 09:24:11 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 09:24:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:25:34 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:26:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:29:10 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 09:30:24 SeroMer^ [~cb796003@gateway/web/freenode/x-pwjkawyqxgyqwzdp] has joined #lisp 09:36:28 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:02 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:40:06 -!- pok [pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:40:09 pok [pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 09:40:21 -!- Sumpen 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WePac [~bubble@p54AA5469.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:52 Why can't I iterate over a string with loop? :/ 11:14:59 you can 11:15:33 sie: strings are vectors 11:16:04 (loop for c in "string" collect c) gives me a error. 11:16:08 -!- Arelius` [~user@208.80.117.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:16:11 Arelius` [~user@208.80.117.82] has joined #lisp 11:16:25 right, strings are not lists 11:16:28 strings are vectors 11:16:34 there is a different looping construct for vectors 11:17:12 That'd be? 11:18:02 sie: across 11:18:41 xan_ [~xan@197.Red-79-155-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:18 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-31-127.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:19:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-225.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:19:29 *lichtblau* <- aims to provide helpful (not merely correct) input 11:22:09 *sie* can't find any across anywhere. 11:22:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 11:23:09 *lichtblau* <- fails 11:23:14 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:23:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 11:23:37 sie: try this link http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_abae.htm 11:25:55 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:26:15 Yay. 11:31:44 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.128.137] has joined #lisp 11:35:09 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:35:28 While trying to compile cl-opengl with SBCL I get an erred while compiling the the package.lisp, and in the compiler output it displays a warning regarding cl-opengl exporting some cl-opengl-bindings symbols. 11:35:48 They aren't listed in the :export though. Anyone seen this before 11:36:39 <_3b> have you already loaded it (or an older version) into that image previously? 11:36:59 Ah, indeed that might be it 11:38:23 Many thanks _3b, that was it 11:39:46 <_3b> cl-opengl does tricks with exporting things at runtime, which causes problems sometimes :( 11:40:45 I'll try to keep it in mind. 11:41:53 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:42:24 tcr [~tcr@203.82.94.20] has joined #lisp 11:42:42 -!- SeroMer^ [~cb796003@gateway/web/freenode/x-pwjkawyqxgyqwzdp] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:43:14 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634288.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 11:44:10 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634288.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:44:49 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634288.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 11:45:36 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634288.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:46:31 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 11:50:02 -!- joga [joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:55:49 -!- amos__ [~amos@host81-157-251-55.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:03:26 billitch [~billitch@cpc3-cmbg14-2-0-cust129.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:02 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-161.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:01 joga [joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 12:06:11 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0103-86-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 12:06:12 -!- joga [joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Changing host] 12:06:12 joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 12:14:03 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-143.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:18:04 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-71-107.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:35 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:35 Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-53-164.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:19:39 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:20:27 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:20:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.2] 12:23:22 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-171-14.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:24:45 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-254-139.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 12:25:26 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-225.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:27:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-225.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:30:47 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-54-90.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:32:18 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-60-130.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:35:04 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:07 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.28.204] has joined #lisp 12:35:24 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:27 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:49:05 Murdoc [~uhhh@host86-173-175-132.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:59 -!- Murdox [~uhhh@host86-177-29-90.range86-177.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:55:45 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-252-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 13:00:04 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-223-150-41.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:13 G'morning all. 13:00:31 good morning to you too. 13:00:38 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:01:12 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:01:36 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:03:44 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 13:03:55 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.93.128.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:05:22 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@222.65.69.14] has joined #lisp 13:05:49 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-58-125.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:08:46 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-80-94.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:10:02 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.92.212.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:13:15 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:14:48 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:35 hmm.. anyone knows of small computer boxes (preferably without fan) with 64bit capability? either amd64 or ppc64 (for Lisp deployment, actually) 13:19:37 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:01 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0103-86-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:22:05 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 13:22:08 I was thinking of delivering intranet webapps this way to SMEs :) 13:22:16 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0162-171-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:59 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:24:35 p_l: Netbooks? Or older-model mac minis? 13:24:39 <_3b> 'small' + 'space for enough ram to justify the 64bit req' might be harder to find 13:25:10 1G? 13:25:16 You could also sell the netbook-as-application-server as having a built-in UPS. 13:25:53 and green power 13:29:01 <_3b> http://www.newegg.com/Store/Category.aspx?Category=3&name=Barebone-Mini-Computers ? 13:29:52 Why can't I defparameter in defun, or can I? 13:30:16 <_3b> you can, but it probably doesn't do what you want 13:30:44 I def it, but it say's it's undefined. 13:30:45 <_3b> (assuming you mean the body of the defun, not the function name or arlist) 13:31:04 *_3b* suspects that is part of the 'not what you want' bit 13:31:14 <_3b> it will define the variable when you run the function 13:31:40 each time 13:31:47 <_3b> you probably want LET or something 13:32:45 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0162-171-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:02 Thought that.. >.< If I'll make-array in LET and return it from the function will it be freed or not? 13:35:25 if you will use it, it won't be freed 13:35:26 <_3b> it will not be freed until (some time after) there are no references to it 13:37:39 and it's better not to build analogies from other languages 13:37:54 Tru.dat 13:38:26 it sometimes helps, sometimes not 13:39:00 <_3b> hmm, some of those small computers are tempting 13:39:15 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-254-139.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:39:35 by that link? as i understand, the price doesn't include CPU, or does it? 13:39:52 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:40:04 <_3b> i think the ones in the 'mini/booksize barebones systems' category do 13:40:20 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-182-148.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 13:40:50 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 13:41:27 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:41:38 <_3b> not enough lan ports on most of them though :/ 13:41:39 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:43:29 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.243] has joined #lisp 13:44:45 -!- xan_ [~xan@197.Red-79-155-255.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:45:33 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@222.65.69.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:45:36 At this point, particularly with SBCL, I'd be inclined towards investigating PPC for a long-running system, though I'll admit that my reasoning is that PPC has a precise stack scavenge. 13:47:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 13:47:44 skeledrew [~skeledrew@port0090-abh-dynamic-adsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:01 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.243] has left #lisp 13:48:28 TeMPOraL [~user@188.147.73.116.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:49:26 is making gc precise on x86oids hard? 13:49:47 or not feasible 13:50:43 For x86, hard. For x86-64, more possible. 13:51:21 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:22 Precise scav on x86-64 is on my list to investigate, at least. 13:51:49 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:13 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:12 *stassats* uses CCL for a long-running process, mainly because it seems to consume less memory from the beginning 13:57:13 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-98-118-48-156.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:41 Murdox [~uhhh@host86-179-108-20.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:15 -!- Murdoc [~uhhh@host86-173-175-132.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:04:45 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 14:04:50 Murdoc [~uhhh@host86-182-103-118.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:56 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-94-57.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:06:46 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.2.205] has quit [] 14:07:58 -!- Murdox [~uhhh@host86-179-108-20.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:08:52 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:09:37 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:38 ak70 [~ak70@85.232.205.197] has joined #lisp 14:17:18 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:19:41 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:22:48 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:57 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.2] 14:23:03 CrazyTB [~crazy@187.14.227.179] has joined #lisp 14:23:29 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 14:24:18 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-98-118-48-156.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 14:25:14 -!- CrazyTB [~crazy@187.14.227.179] has left #lisp 14:25:54 _3b: I'm more worried about address space and availability of more registers than memory size, I guess 14:26:06 Plust the fact that I'm rather fixed with only 64bit systems 14:26:10 MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:35 -!- MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:31:13 rootzlevel [~user@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:34:47 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:59 <_3b> p_l: well, probably any non-x86 chip would give you more registers, 64bit or not :) 14:37:04 _3b: yes, but getting an usable CL implementation on it might be harder - it isn't hard to get a PPC board, but it's hard to find a prepared solution with a box 14:38:40 <_3b> yeah, found a few ppc32 boxes, bit expensive compared to the atom or arm stuff though 14:38:51 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-251-31.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:39:31 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-85-28.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:40:06 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 14:40:27 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 14:42:01 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:45:41 Can I collect items in vector, not in list with loop? 14:45:58 p0a [~user@athedsl-375890.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:46:01 arm doesn't have a CL implementation to use (other than ECL, GCL is a joke, and I'm wary of clisp). The ppc boxes I had seen were mostly ruggedized stuff for telcos 14:46:11 sie: you could do that with :do 14:46:23 <_3b> sie: not as easily (you have to allocate the vector and store the elements in it by hand) 14:46:42 Hello, I'm trying to write a project that uses :lispbuilder-sdl and :lispbuilder-sdl-image but I'm getting some errors. here's the code and the error log 14:47:16 <_3b> p_l: the ppc stuff i found was the cherrypal ($250) and plathome openblocks 600 ($600) 14:48:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/100297 14:48:25 marioxcc [~user@200.92.175.253] has joined #lisp 14:48:41 The issue I can see is that I want to use LOAD-IMAGE from lispbuilder-sdl-image not lispbuilder-sdl. How can I shadow the latter? 14:48:46 <_3b> p_l: lack of lisps on arm is a problem though, i'd probably have an arm system or 2 if there were better lisps available for it 14:48:52 But other than that, I don't know what is wrong and why there's so many errors 14:49:06 <_3b> (well, a system or 2 more than i do already) 14:49:24 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:38 <_3b> p0a: (in-package :mypkg) ? 14:50:32 _3b, undefined variable T and TEST 14:50:34 <_3b> not sure what to do about the symbol conflicts though, i tend to not :use packages as much 14:50:41 What is the alternative? 14:50:51 <_3b> p0a: might also want to :use :cl 14:51:05 still get these errors 14:51:07 <_3b> p0a: specify packages explicitly sdl:with0init for example 14:51:26 <_3b> (except without the typo) 14:51:36 But that's tiresome 14:51:54 http://paste.lisp.org/display/100297#1 14:51:54 <_3b> no more than typying sdlWithInit in c would be 14:52:20 But C sucks :] 14:52:30 <_3b> (not that that actually exists in the C version i guesS) 14:52:36 _3b: the funny thing is that Lisp shouldn't be that hard to implement efficiently on ARM (barrel shifter ftw!) 14:53:07 <_3b> p_l: probably more a question of 'time' and 'motivation' than 'hard' :) 14:53:43 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:54:46 <_3b> p0a: that last error is from trying to compile the code without :use :cl, pick a restart to use the cl:defun, delete the package, or restart the lisp 14:55:12 <_3b> (the conflict between mypkg::defun and cl:defun that is) 14:56:01 <_3b> the undefined variables were presumably due to redefining the package failing 14:56:01 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.147.73.116.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:56:10 _3b, I decided I'll be using sdl: and sdl-image: instead. But I get this new error which is weird and unrelated to everything else. http://paste.lisp.org/display/100297#2 14:56:19 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b31:1220:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 14:57:47 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b31:1220:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:06 <_3b> p0a: you are aware that the lispbuilder-sdl stuff on sourceforge is out of date, right? 14:58:19 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:43 I installed it with asdf-install 14:58:50 _3b: you think a mini-itx board with Athlon64 would be a good solution? :) 14:58:50 or are you saying the example is out of date? 15:00:02 <_3b> p0a: both, asdf-install is probably OK though 15:00:21 <_3b> p0a: so probably should use the current docs 15:00:51 ok I'll try 15:01:12 <_3b> p_l: hard to say, haven't been paying much attention to low-end x86/x86-64 stuff 15:01:38 <_3b> p_l: atom or athlon64 seems like the easiest way to get a small lisp capable box though 15:01:58 ... or maybe I'll manage to finds a 64bit Atom 15:02:22 <_3b> p_l: lot more to choose from too, compared to arm/mips/ppc 15:02:36 <_3b> p_l: looked like most of the ones i saw should be 64 bit 15:02:47 <_3b> (atom systems that is) 15:03:49 _3b, it seems there's no mistake 15:06:03 <_3b> p0a: (:video-expose-event () ...) ? 15:06:57 _3b, you are right, thanks. I thought the () was visible in my source code 15:07:36 <_3b> p0a: looks like it was broken that way in the example on sourceforge, so more reason to use the new docs :) 15:08:10 _3b: Some of the |nettop" oriented cpus from Intel have 64bit 15:08:48 <_3b> p_l: are the still shipping any 32bit x86 cpus? 15:09:58 <_3b> ah, i guess so 15:12:23 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@port0090-abh-dynamic-adsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:18:18 Lithos_ [~chatzilla@DSLPool-net209-213.wctc.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:48 -!- p0a [~user@athedsl-375890.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: bye] 15:20:14 most of the low-power stuff is 32bit only 15:20:24 except for Via Nano 15:20:52 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 15:21:12 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 15:21:16 fiveop [~fiveop@64.235.198.242] has joined #lisp 15:23:06 skeledrew [~skeledrew@port0090-abh-dynamic-adsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:54 -!- Anarch 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#lisp 19:28:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:28:51 MasseR [~masse@dyn68-323.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 19:30:16 Hi, I'm a total beginner with common lisp. I have an assignment where I need to create a list of multiplication table like ((1 1 1) .. (2 2 4) .. (5 5 25)), I tried to do it with a do in a do loop, but wasn't able to append them to the outer list 19:30:21 -!- WePac [~bubble@p54AA6E13.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:16 (loop for a from 1 upto 5 collect (loop for b from 1 upto 5 collect (* a b)) 19:31:18 clhs with-output-to-string 19:31:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm 19:31:47 c|mell: Thanks, I'lll test it 19:31:55 it's not what you want i think 19:32:13 Is there an error in CLHS? The description of with-output-to-string mentions "with-output-from-string" which makes no sense to me. 19:33:02 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 19:35:12 c|mell: Anyway I think it will bring me closer to what I want :) 19:38:21 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.2] 19:39:34 LiamH: there are a number of errors in the spec. oh well. 19:39:42 minion: errata 19:39:42 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``errata''. 19:39:46 minion: clhs errata 19:39:46 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 19:39:54 meh, try googling 19:40:08 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:12 proposed%20 19:40:15 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:16 rahul: I vaguely recall that there was a list of errata somewhere. 19:40:45 http://www.cliki.net/Proposed ANSI Revisions and Clarifications 19:41:49 "This page doesn't exist yet" 19:42:36 \o/ c|mell thanks! 19:42:59 (loop for i from 1 to 5 append (loop for j from 1 to 5 append (list (list i j (* i j)))))(loop for i from 1 to 5 append (loop for j from 1 to 5 append (list (list i j (* i j))))) 19:43:03 -!- rread [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43:10 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-rambncnkfjlpaaqs] has joined #lisp 19:43:53 <_3b> MasseR: use COLLECT and 1 fewer LIST in the inner loop 19:44:00 LiamH: replace all the spaces with %20s, then 19:44:03 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-87-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:45:13 Krystof: ... or just cut and paste the whole thing as a url and not rely pidgin's urlification which stops at the first space. Thanks. 19:45:43 Phoodus [foo@174-17-12-60.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:28 _3b: Thanks :) 19:47:07 right, I remember looking at that before, and someone added at the end "not sure if this is the right place for it" and added some errata. I guess it is de facto the right place for it. 19:49:44 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:49:54 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@port0090-abh-dynamic-adsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:05 iPac2 [~bubble@p54AA6E13.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:48 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 19:55:14 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-85-28.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:55:15 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634288.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:56:46 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:59:10 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-85-28.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:19 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:01 skeledrew [~skeledrew@port0090-abh-dynamic-adsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:33 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 20:04:59 derekv [njpvm67ijr@c-76-112-240-178.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:45 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:31 http://paste.lisp.org/+25EC 20:15:10 silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:55 It doesn't return. Infinate loop or somesuch, I can't see why. 20:17:00 Do you have a call which does return? 20:18:54 It returns with a number as expected if the third parameter is small say 10 or 10000 20:19:57 the magic seems to happen around 1000000000, then it just sits-n-spins until I kill it. 20:19:58 <_3b> heh, hard to even interrupt that here 20:20:13 Hrm... And that should only affect computation of PDISK and... 20:20:15 yea i had a hard time interupting it in slime sometimes 20:20:21 Yeah, I see what this is. 20:21:38 Does it still die if you try, say, (defparameter *foo* (MTTDL_BER 10 1 (expt 10 10))) ? 20:22:15 nyef: yes, same result. 20:22:18 Hrm. 20:23:19 <_3b> seems to be bignum stuff 20:23:29 doesn't like this: (expt (- 1 (/ 1 (/ (expt 10 14) (* 512 8)))) (/ (expt 10 10) 512)) 20:23:29 Yeah, bignum or large rationals. 20:24:36 What's this actually trying to do? 20:24:38 I was just translating from an equation without thinking too hard about reducing it as you can see. 20:24:55 from here http://storageadvisors.adaptec.com/2005/11/01/raid-reliability-calculations/ 20:25:34 <_3b> hmm, that is a big number 20:26:40 there are a lot of bits on a hard drive these days 20:27:04 *_3b* interrupted it, and has rationals with components with integer length 1130726 20:27:09 <_3b> in th ebacktrace 20:27:58 <_3b> derekv: do you need exact rationals there? probably would be faster if you used floats 20:28:27 I don't need exact rationals. 20:29:02 gospch [~gospch@unaffiliated/gospch] has joined #lisp 20:29:52 rahul: there was also CDR document 20:29:55 *documents 20:31:09 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:15 argh, someone could take better care of AIM documents 20:31:39 <_3b> derekv: are you expecting values much larger than (expt 10 10)? 20:32:43 1TB drive is about 10^13 bits 20:33:41 (expt (float (/ 1 (/ (expt 10 14) (* 512 8)))) (float (/ (expt 10 10) 512))) -> 0.0 20:33:53 <_3b> ah, never mind, actually the part i was worried about is a constant anyway :p 20:34:15 <_3b> use double floats 20:35:05 nyef: how many tag bits would you recommend? 20:35:15 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:35:38 <_3b> derekv: also, you dropped a (- 1 ...) from that 20:35:48 -!- gospch [~gospch@unaffiliated/gospch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:13 _3b: yea, for simplicity. (float (- 1 (/ 1 (/ (expt 10 14) (* 512 8))))) -> 1.0 20:36:26 I can probably find a way to restate the equation 20:36:31 <_3b> right, use double floats 20:36:36 <_3b> (float (- 1 ...) 1d0) 20:36:55 *p_l* finds that he can't use more than two tag bits anyway... 20:37:15 <_3b> might still be worth reorganizing though 20:37:44 _3b: no soup with 1d0 20:38:08 nyef: how far did you get with SBCL for ARM? 20:39:22 *_3b* gets 0.99999999995904d0 for the (- 1 ...) part, 0.999200319657861d0 for the full (expt ... (/ (expt 10 10) 512)) 20:40:14 I think this equation is wrong anyways. 20:40:44 p_l: Umm... One more log entry than is available on the site, I think. 20:41:00 I keep thinking about picking it up again, but there's so much else to do. 20:41:10 postamar [~postamar@206-248-162-221.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:04 Its not supposed to be an exponant anyways, or I can't think of why. 20:45:49 <_3b> expt seems reasonable 20:46:04 The probability of a bit error is P, for each bit read independantly, you read the whole disk, thats got C bits on it, the probability of at least one bit error should be P*C 20:47:15 <_3b> so if you flip a coin 100 times, probability of at least 1 heads is 50? 20:47:50 no... man, I think my brain stoped working. 20:47:56 <_3b> :) 20:48:31 <_3b> you want 1 - the probability of all of them not being errors 20:49:57 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslex153.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:51:40 -!- marioxcc` is now known as marioxcc 20:59:06 <_3b> not sure what you are doing after calculating PDISK though 21:02:51 carlocci [~nes@93.37.215.192] has joined #lisp 21:05:49 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:06:18 pnq [~asdf@cpe-174-101-95-132.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:11 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-255-98.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:59 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-18-32.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 21:08:00 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-94-57.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:09:40 billitch [~billitch@cpc3-cmbg14-2-0-cust129.know.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:47 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:14 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-161.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:02 (what's probability of unexpected variables coming in to play?) 21:13:48 <_3b> 0.62944734 21:13:59 the result of this equation isn't that absurd of a number. 21:14:10 its supposed to be about %96 for PDISK 21:15:30 nyef: I was just thinking of how to stuff 4 tag bits on pointer on ARM :D 21:16:23 at least for lists, it should work... dunno if it would be needed, though 21:18:03 I can have the pointers to lists have the lowest 3 bits as tags (each cons being 8 bytes) without much change... 21:21:07 -!- retupmoca` is now known as retupmoca 21:24:20 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-94-57.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:26:53 Umm... 32-bit platform. Why would we change the tag scheme from other SBCL targets? 21:27:23 (Hint: There is one possible good reason, but it's still an invasive change.) 21:28:10 (It's also the sort of reason that would be better received on x86.) 21:29:20 blbrown [~Berlin@75.139.142.224] has joined #lisp 21:29:52 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634288.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:32:48 nyef: I was mostly looking at it from a fresh start view, haven't looked much into SBCL sources 21:33:04 Fair enough. 21:33:28 The main reason you might want to use more tag bits, though, is tighter alignment control on allocations. 21:34:15 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:34:23 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 21:34:24 nyef: or, rather, to better take advantage of larger alignment. 21:34:35 Yeah, something like that. 21:34:49 mjl [~mjl@c83-250-109-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:34:57 -!- mjl [~mjl@c83-250-109-232.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 21:35:04 If you only align to a doubleword boundary, then you don't have tight enough control to hit a quadword boundary. 21:35:31 well, I was aligning cons cells to octawords (2*pointer) 21:36:14 mjl [~mjl@c83-250-109-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:37:11 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:37:28 that gives me 3 tag bits for cons cells, though I'll have to look into best alignement for other values 21:37:38 The proposed tag scheme for wider fixnums on 32-bit SBCL involved losing the instance-pointer-lowtag, making typechecks a touch more expensive, doubling the alignment on non-cons pointers, and having conses still be two words each. 21:38:25 with wordsize=32bit? 21:38:30 Yeah. 21:38:51 With 64bit words we had spare lowtags to begin with. 21:39:19 what I found very nice with ARM is the integrated barrel shifter available in the same cycle as a load :D 21:39:23 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:39:34 Yeah, ARM has some sweet options. 21:39:47 I'm looking at my port log now, actually. 21:40:12 someone also proposed SBCL/dalvik :) 21:40:16 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:50 though I suspect it would be a rather... interesting port 21:41:01 Like constant cross-compile 21:41:38 \hakl [~user@203.81-167-92.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:08 (unless you actually want to put the compiler there) 21:42:14 Odin- [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has joined #lisp 21:42:40 hmm.. could you actually use SBCL on machine without floating-point? 21:43:04 p_l: sure, soft float. 21:43:26 -!- mjl [~mjl@c83-250-109-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: mjl] 21:44:42 pkhuong: I was thinking of maybe passing floats to JVM's Bignums 21:44:58 I don't recall Dalvik having much support for floating-point 21:46:11 ah, there is. I guess I don't need to care about that 21:47:27 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-191-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:37 still, I think CL for Dalvik would require a completely new start, or at least something like ABCL, instead of SBCL 21:48:35 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-191-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:48:52 Wouldn't it matter whether the VM in question is stack or register based system? 21:49:08 +a og -system, depending on preferences. 21:49:30 s/og/or/; # My fingers are used to typing 'og'. :p 21:49:33 Odin-: It would matter that Dalvik is oriented towards Java, including built-in handling of classes and instances 21:49:50 and Dalvik is register based, with 64k registers 21:50:07 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Quit: Meow, meOUT!] 21:50:13 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:51:15 p_l: True, but it might also be problematic to adapt ABCL to a register-based system, since the JVM is stack-based. 21:51:52 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:52:41 cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 21:53:20 I think it would be easier than adapting other stuff 21:53:42 cause the changes would be mostly in call convention, while SBCL would require much much more than just that 21:54:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:54:36 Yes. Seems silly to have two different VMs for Java, though. 21:55:34 Well, it happened, and it can't be really reversed, can it? 21:56:03 <_3b> sure it can, just port jvm to dalvik :p 21:56:37 <_3b> (or write a dalvik interpreter/jit in java) 21:57:06 not in that way :P 22:00:05 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-161.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:44 -!- blbrown [~Berlin@75.139.142.224] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:01:44 Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-161.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:30 Hrm... soft-float, huh? Might be interesting to see that implemented in SBCL itself. 22:03:47 (Wasn't there some implementation of ieee floating point in lisp for verification purposes?) 22:06:32 Dalvik would also favor short floats heavily 22:08:06 -!- shasbot [~shasbot@ip70-171-218-55.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:42 the assembler itself is rather simple 22:10:48 pers [~user@221.sub-75-254-9.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:12 Hello fellow lisp enthusiasts. Beautiful sunny day in the city of Atlanta. I have a simple iteration (or loop) question. I am iterating across a set of lists and am reduced to using APPEND like (iter (for el in (append list1 list2 list3)). Is there a way to not APPEND, since it does seem unnecessary work here? 22:14:27 Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-252-67.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 22:14:49 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:15:26 *_3b* would probably use nested loops there i think 22:16:54 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:17:27 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-251-31.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:18:44 -!- Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-53-164.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:19:26 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-161.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:27 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 22:20:50 <_3b> though i guess since you use iterate, you could extend it to iterate over lists of lists 22:21:44 Blah blah blah LICENSE blah blah. <--- apparently emitted by dalvik when asked for copyright... 22:22:02 moshisushi [~henry@h-135-6.A288.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 22:23:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:23:14 what languages compile to dalvik? 22:23:20 _3b: yea, thats where I'm leaning. I was just querying the collective memory in case it's already been solved idomatically. 22:23:44 what languages compile best to dalvik? 22:24:16 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:06 dmiles_afk: everything that outputs .class files that don't require a) APIs that aren't available on Android b) runtime code generation (though it is possible if you target dalvik itself, not JVM) 22:26:45 Android 2.2 adds JIT 22:29:06 Unsichtbar [~irc-data@unaffiliated/appetite] has joined #lisp 22:33:50 -!- dulouz [~dulouz@dsl254-119-219.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:34:51 is there Smalltalk for Dalvik? 22:36:08 eldragon: not yet, afaik 22:36:17 does smalltalk require multiple inheritance? 22:36:40 smalltalk is single inheritance 22:37:02 it shouldn't be hard to write an implementation for dalvik, then 22:37:17 just as long as you avoid runtime compilation, it should be even *very* easy 22:38:09 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:40:12 Dalvik directly implements classes and invoking of methods 22:43:08 lol, some parts of Google managed to avoid the "official languages list" 22:43:08 -!- stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:38 there's a group that uses Scheme 22:45:02 -!- \hakl [~user@203.81-167-92.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:45:17 also, I just found a lisp job not tracked by lispjobs :) 22:47:07 nah, it was a disguised army job 22:47:24 damn. Firefox crash. And on this network, it will take ages to restart it 22:47:36 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:49:26 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 22:50:32 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:52:44 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 22:54:54 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:30 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757799.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:34 Oh, lovely. I start by aiming for a cheneygc target, but decide that I can use the x86oid (no separate non-descriptor stack) move functions as a basis. 23:03:05 -!- Unsichtbar [~irc-data@unaffiliated/appetite] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:04:46 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-44-161.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:06:21 sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:51 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:21 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-44-161.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 23:12:48 ikki [~ikki@189.247.17.118] has joined #lisp 23:13:12 Unsichtbar [~asd93k@unaffiliated/appetite] has joined #lisp 23:17:02 -!- Unsichtbar [~asd93k@unaffiliated/appetite] has quit [Client Quit] 23:18:35 Unsichtbar [~asd93k@unaffiliated/appetite] has joined #lisp 23:20:24 -!- xan_ [~xan@216.Red-217-125-15.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:12 brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:24:43 xan_ [~xan@216.Red-217-125-15.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:49 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-44-161.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:25:11 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-44-161.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 23:30:16 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:26 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:47 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@157.157.93.22] has quit [Quit: Off!] 23:31:31 Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-230-215.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 23:34:05 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 23:34:50 donald [~talau@200.181.184.96] has joined #lisp 23:35:06 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-252-67.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:35:18 -!- donald is now known as Guest61170 23:35:49 -!- Guest61170 [~talau@200.181.184.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:41 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-66-8-173-142.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:36:44 dysinger_ [~dysinger@cpe-66-8-173-142.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:12 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:40:48 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7D87.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:41:57 benny [~benny@i577A7DF2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:42:33 paint [~paint@unaffiliated/paint] has joined #lisp 23:43:07 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-17-213.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:43:08 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 23:44:40 -!- mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:47:21 mtd [~martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:11 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:56 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-144-13-135.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:34 Guthur [~michael@host86-150-202-161.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:38 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:58:02 -!- silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]