00:00:17 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:01:13 -!- Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:01:16 Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:25 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-27.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:01:47 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:02:50 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:03:57 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:05:23 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-27.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:59 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 00:06:36 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 00:06:42 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:34 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:08:12 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Client Quit] 00:08:25 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 00:10:44 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:11:36 -!- Makoryu is now known as DangerfieldMachi 00:11:45 -!- DangerfieldMachi is now known as Makoryu 00:14:24 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:17:38 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:18:36 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:46 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:33 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 00:25:20 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:29:01 maybe a stupid question, but how do I do while (1) { } in cl? 00:29:12 (loop ...) 00:29:42 cool 00:30:24 rme: Saw your comments on ccl bug tracker about log and expt. 00:31:18 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-140-105.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:31:23 rtoym: I'm still not sure what the right thing is, as you can probably tell. 00:32:11 Neither am I, but I decided that more accuracy for these corner cases doesn't hurt and it's very easy to do (at least in cmucl). 00:32:47 -!- Guthur [~michael@213.122.220.102] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:13 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-140-105.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:33:28 shofetim [~user@97-121-228-198.blng.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:07 !yes 00:35:49 oops wrong channel sry 00:36:13 !yes == no? 00:36:19 rtoym: I'm not very pleased with the answers to your question on comp.lang.lisp, which seem to say, "hey, it's floating-point, so you should expect it to be arbitrarily bad." 00:37:15 rme: Yeah, I was hoping for something a little better than that. But at least some people had a clue. 00:37:22 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-140-105.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:27 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:38:36 nunb [~nundan@59.178.215.222] has joined #lisp 00:38:46 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:39:59 rme: I notice that ccl can compute logs of rationals that don't fit in a single or double-float. That's not required, but very useful. 00:40:54 On argument for doing contagion for logs is that (log 10 10d0) is not the same as (log 10d0 10). Not required, but I think it's confusing. 00:41:09 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-140-105.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:41:53 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:42:28 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 00:43:12 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.18.232.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:43:13 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.215.222] has quit [Client Quit] 00:45:05 rtoym: On the other hand, I can see the point of "if you want to compute with double-floats, then pass double-float args". Maybe enlightenment will come to me somehow. 00:46:32 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-133-77-125.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:46:45 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:46:47 -!- cbeok [~user@lnk2-themill-gw.binary.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:47:38 rme: Yeah, I know. This comes up in a test in maxima. For whatever reason, the code eventually calls (expt 2 #c(-2d0 -1d0)). This makes the test fail. But the maxima routine is generic, so maxima would have to check all possible combinations to get the right argument types. But since Lisp is already doing that for expt, why duplicate the work? 00:48:54 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:49:51 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:50:25 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:54:16 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@nat/redhat/x-jvpqjvkdgnxxsuuc] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:55:19 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:18 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:00:22 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:01:55 cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 01:02:02 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-108-56-179-132.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:03:21 blbrown [~Berlin@75.139.142.224] has joined #lisp 01:07:48 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:07:49 lemonodor_ [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 01:08:02 -!- lemonodor_ [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has quit [Client Quit] 01:08:05 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:10:27 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:11:07 rtoym: I feel this should be fixed, fwiw. 01:11:35 pkhuong: Which? expt? log? both? 01:12:14 errkle [~user@lawn-143-215-206-57.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 01:12:44 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.215.255] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:13:16 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:13:19 rtoym: expt. 01:14:13 That's good. Then I can say that the maxima test failure is a Lisp issue since clisp, cmucl, and sbcl pass. 01:14:16 hefner: no. Usually #define yes 0 / #define no 1 so that they can write if(do_something()){ report_error(); } 01:16:08 -!- errkle [~user@lawn-143-215-206-57.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:16:08 minion: memo for beach: you're right, gcc is yet another example of Greespun's Law. 01:16:09 Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 01:16:11 errkle [~user@lawn-143-215-206-57.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 01:17:23 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.0] has joined #lisp 01:17:41 necroforest [~jarred@pool-108-56-179-132.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:56 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 01:24:18 so... is there a one-stop shop detailing wtf is up with ACL's backquote facility? I cannot compile the following macro (from On Lisp): 01:24:18 01:24:24 (defmacro propmacros (&rest props) 01:24:24 `(progn 01:24:24 ,@(mapcar #'(lambda (p) '(propmacro ,p)) 01:24:24 props))) 01:25:00 you need to use a backquote when you want one 01:25:01 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:25:17 so i can't rely on the one outside the progn? 01:25:26 webdever [~david@64.203.60.56] has joined #lisp 01:25:45 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:26:45 I think the quote inside your lambda should be a backquote, not a regular quote 01:27:14 errkle: do you know what ,@ does? 01:27:43 splices the result of the mapcar call 01:28:40 also, does anybody still really use #'(lambda ...) instead of (lambda ...) ? 01:28:40 errkle: and the result of the mapcar is? 01:30:02 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:30:28 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-251-31.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: ERROR: do not makunbound t please!] 01:30:33 Phoodus, you mean, you want your code to not work on Genera?????? 01:30:52 oh noes! 01:30:53 it'll be a list of macro definitions, i believe 01:31:29 you mean macro usages? 01:31:44 oops, yes. usages. 01:31:48 there's a patch to make that work on genera anyway 01:32:01 then i think /that/ macro will expand into macro definitions 01:32:04 errkle: this doesn't make sense. suppose props is (1 2 3), what do you think (mapcar #'(lambda (p) '(propmacro ,p)) props) should do 01:32:13 (note that this is not a backquote) 01:33:23 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:27 errkle: you're typing in yourself, not copy/pasting? 01:33:49 i copy/pasted PG's example. 01:34:06 well, it's got a ' vs ` typo 01:34:13 gaaa! 01:34:27 (at least from what I gather it's supposed to do) 01:34:46 errkle: please remember the first rule of debugging: it is _your_ fault 01:34:47 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:34:55 always. 01:35:24 course that's nothing new to me: I'm the self-loathing type. 01:37:47 -!- davazp [~user@64.Red-79-157-94.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41:03 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:42:45 I still think I'm missing the gist, however 01:43:58 `(progn 01:43:58 (let ((,children (flatten (children (car sym))))) 01:43:58 (defun ,sym (scene) 01:43:58 ,@(mapcar (lambda (key) 01:44:01 (gethash key (gethash scene *scene-library*))) 01:44:04 ,children)))) 01:44:07 01:44:59 lisppaste: url 01:44:59 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 01:45:08 errkle: , is called _unquote_. ,@ is called _unquote_-splice. 01:45:49 errkle: so once un unquote a backquote, you cannot use unquote without re-backquoting first. 01:45:59 s/ un / you / 01:46:05 inside the mapcar, you're already unquoted 01:46:19 there is no extra scope to jump out of to access yet another outer "children" 01:46:38 errkle: you must track the level of backquote, and you must not go to negative levels with more unquotes than backquotes. 01:47:04 errkle pasted "backquote mishmash" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/99209 01:47:05 bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-133-77-125.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:39 you've got 1 backquote but 2 commas nested between where children is defined, and its usage in the mapcar 01:47:45 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:15 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:32 `( 1 backquote ,( 0 backquote ) `( 2 backquotes ) 1 backquote `( 2 backquotes ,( 1 backquote ,( 0 backquote )))) 01:49:01 You cannot have -1 backquote. 01:49:01 `(progn .. ,@(mapcar .. ,children)) the last one matches no context 01:49:46 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:50:42 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:50:43 I'm only 50 pages into Keene and I can safely say it was worth the $ 01:51:21 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:51:24 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:52:47 nunb [~nundan@59.178.215.222] has joined #lisp 01:54:00 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:54:19 Thanks for the help, guys. I (obviously) had the wrong idea about how backquote/unquote functioned. I just took backquote for granted. 01:54:37 Back to the book-learning for a little while... 01:54:46 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-117-163.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: hefner] 01:57:05 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:58:14 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:58:31 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:59:55 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.0] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 02:00:46 errkle, you can read the abawden paper on backquote 02:01:39 thanks; downloading that now. 02:02:08 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-uzfpegxyexodwpdf] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:03:31 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-xlsrxctypxpmbguv] has joined #lisp 02:05:02 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:07 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] 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[~pip@unaffiliated/pip] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:29:15 -!- pip_ [~pip@unaffiliated/pip] has quit [Client Quit] 03:32:00 jpl3 [~user@zinfandel.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:34:13 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-163-168.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:38:07 gonzojive [~red@128.12.248.192] has joined #lisp 03:39:58 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 03:42:02 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:43:42 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 03:46:30 pickles [~rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:41 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:51:21 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:51:23 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 03:51:27 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 03:53:16 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-23-215.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:55:55 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:58:12 leifw [~user@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:19 Good morning! 03:58:20 beach, memo from pjb: you're right, gcc is yet another example of Greespun's Law. 03:59:40 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 04:00:13 There's nothing wrong with re-inventing half of CL if you do a better job of it. 04:01:23 beach: you just went to sleep! 04:01:34 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.176.155] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:01:43 I think there's a more interesting difference between lisp and C style languages. 04:01:59 psilord1: Time flies when you are having fun? 04:02:12 The tendency to associate by shared container as opposed to embedding. 04:02:24 beach: I guess so. I just left work when you went to bed, and I've been hacking lisp since. I look up, and there you are! 04:03:00 Zhivago: You are wrong. 04:03:38 You should not have said this 04:05:13 varjaaks [~SESA13420@115.118.21.64] has joined #lisp 04:10:18 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qwhdypkurcgskbuo] has joined #lisp 04:10:33 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:15:08 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 04:19:10 ziggurat [~quassel@173.74.42.166] has joined #lisp 04:22:36 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-26.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:34 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 04:24:23 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:25:34 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.18.232.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 04:26:18 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:21 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 04:34:11 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34:19 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:47:11 -!- varjaaks [~SESA13420@115.118.21.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:47:13 how would I make sure a class slot is is always set to one of :foo :bar :baaz? The slot has an :accessor and :initarg. I was thinking I'd have to create :after initialize-instance and setf methods. 04:47:35 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.202.104] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:48:07 varjaaks [~SESA13420@115.118.29.15] has joined #lisp 04:48:17 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:48:28 create your metaclass with this property? 04:49:00 stassats: meta who? 04:49:11 I'm far from that level 04:49:25 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.18.232.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 04:50:08 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 04:50:13 you won't be closer with such attitude 04:50:45 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.18.232.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 04:50:57 stassats: Did you test your patch for maxima? 04:51:06 hrm, the slot will eventually be sent to clx, which will catch it 04:51:09 rtoym: only on Clozure CL 04:51:43 in the whole, on other implementations i made sure they return the right thing 04:51:57 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:53:01 I think it's kind of messy. The maxima script passes some command-line args and I think the underlying lisp is not supposed to see those. But it's been a while since I looked at that. 04:53:08 *rtoym* will try out the patch soon. 04:53:56 bytecolor: Use :type (member :bar :baaz), but see https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/485718 04:54:15 the problem was, imaxima wasn't working with CCL and turned out it just removed all arguments 04:54:54 but since clisp and sbcl are most often used, and they do not remove anything, i suppose it's the right thing to do 04:56:25 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:57:20 Who says clisp and sbcl is most often used? I think gcl is most often used. 04:57:58 ccl is not very well supported because not that many people use it with maxima. 04:58:54 tcr: I read the hyperspec a while ago and it states undefined behavior will result 04:59:17 sbcl ftw! 04:59:40 tcr: that's actaully what I was using 05:00:16 rtoym: right, and gcl 05:01:16 the :type part, not the optimize part 05:01:31 and i'm using INSTALL.lisp method with saving an image 05:01:33 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has joined #lisp 05:03:16 stassats: Ok. I use the normal configure/make way. 05:03:54 But that shouldn't be much different from what you're doing. 05:03:57 ok, i'll look how they differ 05:04:02 Axioplas1 [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 05:04:26 I have not used imaxima; I'll try that out. 05:04:47 imaxima just passes --preload-lisp=imaxima.lisp 05:06:15 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:48 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 05:06:52 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 05:07:29 I guess it's ok if the command line process sees other args, as long as they don't match something that maxima uses. 05:09:40 on sbcl, sb-ext:*posix-argv* doesn't include options which are processed by SBCL 05:10:10 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.151.121] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:10:35 That's the difference, I think. On the other lisps, they contain all of the command line arguments. 05:10:50 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:11:27 -!- varjaaks [~SESA13420@115.118.29.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:11:46 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:11:51 I applied the patch. With cmucl, I get warnings like argument a not recognized. And o and c too. And then it croaks with -1 not being a base-char. 05:12:28 so, perhaps i shouldn't use the image directly... 05:13:06 Not sure. I always use maxima/maxima-local to run maxima. 05:15:25 Patch seems to be ok with ccl, though. At least it doesn't die, and does recognize the -g option for maxima. 05:15:56 nunb [~nundan@59.178.202.104] has joined #lisp 05:16:05 varjaaks [~SESA13420@115.118.29.15] has joined #lisp 05:16:41 -!- varjaaks [~SESA13420@115.118.29.15] has quit [Client Quit] 05:17:15 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:47 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:57 Hmm. But it's not recognizing the -h (help) option. Something is messed up. 05:18:08 perhaps it should work this way: if there's --, pass everything after --, and if there's no --, pass the whole arglist 05:18:38 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:18:43 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:18:47 that way it will work with both an image, and form a shell script 05:19:01 Heh. Maybe so. The maxima script always puts --. 05:19:33 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 05:20:31 -!- ziggurat [~quassel@173.74.42.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:23:44 stassats: The original command-line handles -h ok with ccl. It's getting late. I'll look at it more tomorrow. 05:24:00 i'll resend a patch with what i said above 05:26:22 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:37 Ok, but there's still something wrong. With your patch running from the maxima script, -h doesn't work with ccl. cmucl doesn't work at all. More study needed, tomorrow. 05:27:22 with my new patch, -h works in both ways to start maxima 05:29:51 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:30:27 Ok. I'll try it out tomorrow... 05:30:44 thanks 05:31:48 hohoho [~hohoho@pa3a20d.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:31:53 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 05:32:28 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 05:33:36 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:42 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:34:04 -!- drwho is now known as Guest6910 05:34:12 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:35:40 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:36:47 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:37:44 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:25 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:41:02 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qwhdypkurcgskbuo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:42:22 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:43:03 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:43:45 hi guys, how do i make this work: (let ((x 2)) (eval '(+ x 2))) 05:44:04 Hun [~hun@95-90-225-75-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 05:44:09 eval runs code in the null lexical environment 05:44:12 jan247: Now why would you want to do that in the first place? 05:44:18 so, don't use eval 05:44:26 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 05:44:40 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 05:44:45 (lambda (x) (+ x 2)) is one way 05:45:24 (let ((x 2)) (+ x 2)) is another 05:45:41 straydev: but it's harder to construct this on the fly 05:45:44 ah, i see. i'm actually given the (+ x 2) as an argument.. and i need to bind values to it 05:45:59 jan247: Who gave you that as an argument? 05:46:01 *straydev* nods 05:46:16 trying some genetic programming stuff :) 05:46:16 with lambda you can (funcall (compile nil '(lambda (x) (+ x 2))) 2) 05:46:36 and you can reuse it 05:47:54 pnq [~gaiug@ACA3548E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:48:02 jan247: When you find you need eval, it is very often that you have the wrong approach. 05:48:14 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:48:15 hehe, got it. tnx. :) 05:48:45 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 05:49:00 writing your own ad-hoc interpreter may be faster 05:49:03 jan247: Directly evaluating code that you get from a genetic algorithm is dangerous. Have you limited the permissible genes so as not to allow infinite loops? 05:50:05 Makoryu: it's a simple exercise really, hehe. still starting out with genetic algorithms :) it doesn't even involve loops yet. but lisp seems to be a really good language with that.. 05:50:50 Yeah. It sure helps to be able to directly represent executable code with a very light syntax. 05:51:35 indeed 05:51:39 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.161] has joined #lisp 05:52:16 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:53:23 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 05:55:15 -!- goner [~goner@unaffiliated/goner] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:56:59 -!- xristos [~x@research.suspicious.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:57:18 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xlszqsfxxumzinln] has joined #lisp 05:57:40 _danb_ [~user@124-168-128-117.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:59:25 -!- Guest6910 [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:00:20 -!- synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-178-72.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:01:12 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:49 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:09:55 Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:09:56 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:11:21 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:13:13 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 06:14:24 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:15:19 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:15 -!- Axioplas1 [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Quit: brb] 06:19:38 Axioplas1 [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 06:19:52 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-36-108.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:20:05 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:20:31 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0063-25-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:20:39 -!- Axioplas1 [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 06:21:14 hello lispers 06:21:28 hello kiuma 06:21:50 hi beach 06:22:11 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:22:21 beach, have you knowledge about cffi ? 06:22:42 kiuma: No, I try to avoid it at all cost. 06:23:02 :) 06:23:37 I prefer pure lisp too, but for what I'm trying to do I can't avoid it 06:24:04 kiuma: I have the luxury of being able to choose what I try to do. 06:24:14 -!- rme [rme@clozure-941A5270.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:24:14 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-132-157.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:24:23 kiuma: So what is it that can't be done in Lisp? 06:24:39 using enlightenment :) 06:25:11 -!- dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-98-150-133-209.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dysinger] 06:26:25 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:26:49 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:26:51 kiuma: Bah, you could port those libraries to Lisp. That would be useful to others as well. 06:27:51 In iter macro, (for x in-stream s), I want to change the default "reader". Is it possible? 06:28:22 beach, what I'm trying to do 06:29:13 sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:23 kenjin2201, (let ((*standard-input* xxx)) ....) ? 06:29:56 well anyway with a closure, correct ? 06:30:06 -!- sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:30:06 sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:30:42 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 06:31:43 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:32:04 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 06:32:34 kenjin2201: what do you mean by default "reader"? 06:35:53 stassats, correct question :) 06:36:45 the function which will read next element from the stream? 06:37:03 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@pa3a20d.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:37:03 hohoho_ [~hohoho@pa3a20d.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:37:23 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:37:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39:32 kenjin2201: i guess you can write your own iterate clause which will use another reader by default 06:41:47 stassats, in CFFI is there any difference between a function defined with defcfun and a function that calls foreign-funcall in terms of performances ? 06:41:55 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-17-12-60.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:42:31 kiuma: defcfun defines a function which calls foreign-funcall 06:44:30 ahh, perfect, but I'll have do do a whole cleanup :/ of my code (currently of more then 3000 rows) because I have many useless symbols inside 06:50:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:52:34 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:54:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:55:17 That is not true on all lisps. The allegro and lispworks backends have distinct code paths for foreign-funcall and defcfun. 06:55:40 (also corman) 06:56:23 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:56:31 It's what the documentation says, so probably serves as mental model 06:57:12 lichtblau, so is it better (I fon't need the symbol produced by defcfun) using defcfun of foreign-funcall ? 06:58:18 well, what do your app's benchmarks say? 07:00:30 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:00:39 lol, A bit too early :) . Do you mean make it run and then make it fast ? 07:01:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:01:29 no, benchmark before 07:01:47 and ask yourself, do you need the performance? 07:02:13 what lichtblau probably meant was: the way to find out if one of the ways works faster than the other is to benchmark 07:05:47 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has joined #lisp 07:05:47 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07:09 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 07:08:18 Soulman [~knute@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:28 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-157-148.aei.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:10:32 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:14 *segmond* wonders if it is worth learning CLOS 07:11:28 segmond: Yes. 07:11:33 schmx, why? 07:11:56 segmond: It is the best way to write object oriented code in Lisp ? 07:12:00 i have never been an object's guy. :-/ but then again, i'm not much of a programmer anywayz, my heading is hurting from learning lisp 07:12:07 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754068.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:40 slava [~slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:15 -!- Hun [~hun@95-90-225-75-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:13:34 i think one has to enjoy some sort of sadomasochism to really go after lisp. 07:13:47 segmond: It is a normal thing to use.. the CLOS. and I'm sure you have been using it. 07:13:50 huh. 07:14:07 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:14:07 schmx, I have? :) how? i'm just learning. 07:14:08 I think the SM bondage type people go for ada or ocaml. 07:14:25 segmond: Have you fired up your lisp and actually done something at the repl? 07:14:32 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@adsl-75-42-235-187.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 07:14:52 when you don't know something it's always seems that you don't know it 07:14:59 schmx, i wonder if structures wouldn't be enough? i don't know java, but i believe it has single inheritance, and structures are kind of like that. who cares about all that public/private stuff anywayz 07:15:05 segmond: actually do this. fire it up and just eval 1 07:15:13 segmond: there you go. you made yourself a fixnum object. 07:15:34 no, it's an integer object 07:15:36 segmond: Sure you can get by with just structures. 07:15:42 stassats: not in mah sbcl :D 07:15:47 schmx, lol, i'm talking about be actually aware of the usage. :) 07:16:03 schmx: there is no class fixnum in CL 07:16:06 segmond: as for public/private stuff. CLOS has no concept of private so no worries. 07:16:18 (class-of 1) => # 07:16:30 and what follows from this? 07:16:46 that it is an instance of fixnum. 07:16:46 clhs fixnum 07:16:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_fixnum.htm 07:16:52 implementations may provide classes for built-in types, but you shouldn't rely on this 07:16:55 ASau` [~user@77.246.231.35] has joined #lisp 07:17:01 (class-of 1) in clisp returns integer 07:17:12 stassats is correct 07:17:12 stassats: obviously. But there is such a class here. 07:17:23 true, there is such a class irrelevant of what type tho. 07:17:35 segmond: obviously things are different in each implementation. 07:18:01 unless they're standard 07:18:08 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ghccfwwxnptqrlxd] has joined #lisp 07:18:10 yeah, it's not an integer type, it's a class. 07:18:17 provided the implementation follows the standard ;) 07:18:54 segmond: pretty sure it is an integer type :) 07:18:57 schmx, so should i declare learning CLOS until i'm very comfortable with other parts of lisp in general or is it one of those things that is best learned from the get go? i may just get too comfortable without it and never bother to learn it... 07:18:58 there is this nasty implementation of Common Lisp, it's called GCC, none of my programs work on it! 07:19:02 (type-of 2) :) 07:19:23 gcc or gcl? 07:19:32 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:19:42 segmond: What other parts do you need to get comfortable with? It's a simple language? 07:19:46 segmond: gcc 07:20:25 schmx, learning about the other 900 symbols that are not centric to CLOS 07:20:44 segmond: That seems a .. not so good way to learn CL. 07:21:01 segmond: I mean by learning all the symbols and what they possibly can do. :S 07:21:02 (length (apropos-list "" :sb-mop)) => 83 07:21:24 ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.85.45.27] has joined #lisp 07:21:37 MOP is smaller, so you will learn it faster 07:21:42 schmx, whatever works. i'm reading books and referencing hyperspec 07:21:46 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:22:00 segmond: Eh. You seem to come from a programming background. Just read PCL. 07:22:22 i'm saving PCL for the future, i'm currently reading (successful lisp and common lisp - an interactive approach) 07:22:24 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:43 i'm working through successfull common lisp 07:22:44 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:22:44 what the. 07:22:45 very fun 07:23:33 pickles, yeah, it is. i really really like common lisp an interactive approach, it get's boring sometimes, so i use successful lisp to break the monotony, once i finish them, then i will tackle PCL. 07:24:02 PCL is good, but one doesn't really learn lisp with it, one learns how to use lisp, i want to really understand lisp first before i get all practical with it. 07:24:16 i learned Lisp by writing Lisp 07:24:38 segmond: What do you need to understand about Lisp though? it's cons cells and a repl. 07:24:46 stassats, i plan to do mostly the opposite when done reading the books, by reading lots of lisp code. lol 07:24:48 yeah i got half way through pcl before i realized that it is more of a reference for various ideas 07:24:58 or rather half way before i got lost 07:25:12 my goal is just to have fun 07:25:27 segmond: as for learning all the symbols... I have been hacking lisp off and on for .. I dunno I lose track of time. I still have to look up the DO syntax every time I feel an urge to use it. 07:25:43 good thing there's LOOP so I can forget about it. 07:25:50 schmx: why do you even have such an urge? 07:26:05 lisp is the only language i think is fun to read. its syntax removes a layer of interpolation my noggin has to do for all the varied arcane symbols the otehr languages use... everythign here is a nice form and some arguments in a funcdtion. 07:26:08 lovely 07:26:09 stassats: I dunno.. sometimes.. it just like "oh DO would be nice here". But it's not :) 07:26:12 lol, i don't intend to hack off and on, i intend to stay ON till i die. 07:26:29 segmond: That's cool. I have a life that interferes. 07:26:32 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 07:26:44 well, if that's what you mean by off, then i have a life too. 07:26:57 segmond: hehehe 07:27:00 segmond: heading off for the upcoming three days. So I'm off. 07:27:06 etc. 07:27:08 xan_ [~xan@83.34.169.207] has joined #lisp 07:27:16 on meaning, i don't go months without writing lisp code or doing stuff in another language. 07:27:34 i don't work for anyone, so i don't have to ever subject myself to some other language unless i choose to. 07:27:37 that probably is an excellent approach i think 07:27:54 you will absorb it via osmosis that way, nice 07:28:09 ah glad to hear someone has managed to arrange their lifethat nicely 07:28:10 segmond: good plan, in a couple of years you will learn some lisp 07:28:21 thats really good to read segmond :) congrats 07:28:28 segmond: Anyway on the CLOS topic. You can get by without actively using it. I just think it seems.. kinda dumb not to. 07:28:41 stassats? couple of years? oh no, i'm shooting for 2yrs MAX 07:28:51 hopefully by this time next year. 07:29:05 segmond: do you have any specific projects/programs in mind? 07:29:05 wow, i didn't see, "learn SOME lisp", i saw, "learn lisp" that makes it even worse. lol 07:29:09 you sound very determined 07:29:42 pickles, yeah, an AI project 07:29:48 segmond: i don't know how long does it take, i only on it the fifth year 07:29:59 segmond: No disrespect here, but I really think the practical approach is better. PCL + the daily hacking and exploring the hyperspec at need, and playing round with libraries etc. 07:30:12 oh nice 07:30:15 I mean for learning lisp that is. 07:30:42 -!- quodlibetor [~user@ool-18baa8f1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:46 if you are an established programmer yeah i can see that schmx 07:30:49 schmx, i agree, but before i get to daily hacking, i like to have a good idea of things first, so i may spend the first 6 months doing boring reading, then once i'm done, i can get to the daily hacking. 07:31:02 for those of us not really programmers practical common lisp is really helpfull 07:31:19 pickles: I got the impression that segmond was well versed in java and other languages. 07:31:19 i learned how to ride bicycle by reading a book 07:31:27 for what i know, one learns programming by imitating 07:31:30 don't need practical common lisp to learn, i can go git some lisp code 07:31:46 pcl offers well-annotated examples 07:31:54 schmx, i'm not. i have never done java. i haven't programmed really in 7 yrs. I have hated computers for the last couple of years. 07:31:59 well-annotated and -explained 07:32:09 segmond: oh I see. Have you looked at gentle then? 07:32:14 gentle 07:32:17 eh 07:32:19 what is that bot again 07:32:22 minion: gentle 07:32:22 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 07:32:23 next, i'm planning to learn how to drive a car by reading a book as well 07:32:29 last serious language i bothered somewhat learning was python, i hated computers and everything about them, but lisp is making it exciting again. 07:32:46 segmond: Excellent. 07:33:04 schmx, i have that on PDF, but i prefer "common lisp - an interactive approach and successful lisp" i also have winston & horn 07:33:05 segmond: Sadly you will realise that lisp is not magic. But good that you are having a good time there :) 07:34:18 schmx, i don't think it's magic, i have read tons of CLL posts, rants by ron garret, and the 1000+ post on merits of lisp vs python. so i'm having a good idea about the language and how lispniks feel about it. 07:34:35 wow. 07:34:41 I don't think I've read a single CLL post. 07:35:07 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:35:13 I did read one or two of graham's rants. 07:35:15 heh. 07:35:17 segmond: lol wow thats a really cool thing to read 07:35:20 wow, you should read merits of lisp vs python. very interesting and amusing too. 07:35:43 if you have nothing better to do 07:35:46 lisp makes me want to read code, all the other languages make me want to scrape my eyeballs 0out with a rusted spoon 07:35:48 but most of the good posts, interesting ones seem to date back, yeah, i hit CLL from time to time. 07:35:59 stassats: any particular link? i'm curious 07:36:08 pickles: there's good stuff elsewhere, too 07:36:32 there's good python and good c 07:36:46 pickles - http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/70e6afa9012cbd5c/4050caff2ebed840?q=merits+of+lisp+vs+python&lnk=ol&pli=1 07:36:49 pickles: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/ 07:37:04 *nod* i'm not really good enough to say otherwise guaqua 07:37:12 oh sweet, more linkage, danke :) 07:37:24 that will keep me quite for a while ... thx ... reading 07:37:33 pickles: django is an example of good python (imo) and plan9 for c 07:37:36 and there is horrible lisp 07:37:50 i think horrible lisp is very easy 07:37:55 after i saw some lisp1.5 code, wow 07:38:06 What I find a bit amusing with a lot of these introductionary text is that they seem to spend half the material on recursion, and having you write list flattening recursive functions. 07:38:43 I guess I just don't like recursion ;) 07:38:43 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:54 guaqua, ok a after all I can do a simple benchmark on SBCL, but SBCL is the only Lisp machine I have 07:39:06 schmx, why? do you find it hard? lol 07:39:12 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:39:30 segmond: No I don't find it hard. I just don't find that I use it very much in practice. 07:39:46 it's useful if one works with trees :) 07:39:48 schmx, maybe because you find it harder to use, that's why you don't use it in practice. 07:39:58 segmond: I don't find it "harder to use". 07:39:58 if you found it easier, why wouldn't you use it? lol 07:40:09 segmond: I seldom find it applicable to what I do. 07:40:31 guaqua: I guess. I can't remember doing that for ages (: 07:40:50 well, everything can't be done with recursion but it's a good thing to know, some algorithms really work well with the divide and conquer approach 07:41:20 segmond: I do prolog. There's recursion all over. I have no problem with it. 07:41:24 schmx, so what sort of data structures do you find yourself working with often? 07:41:41 segmond: arrays and CLOS objects I guess. 07:41:56 schmx, that's cool. i don't know prolog, but i plan to learn it after lisp and do my own implementation of it with lisp, i think lisp symbols as prolog keywords will be super interesting. 07:42:10 schmx: had to do it this week. found out my tree had cycles => stack overflow :> 07:42:11 (: 07:42:20 and ended up with an iterative approach instead... 07:42:27 guaqua: you leave trees to the gardeners :P 07:42:29 unless you can tell me that prolog keywords have property list like lisp symbols 07:42:49 segmond: They do not. 07:43:01 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:43:14 that's sad, i don't know how anyone could have seriously thought of that. 07:43:23 could not... 07:43:28 oh 07:43:38 I was agreeing there. How can anyone have thought of having plists. 07:43:46 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:43:49 are you serious? you don't see the use of plists? 07:44:02 i thought it was a waste, but now, it's like, WOAH! 07:44:05 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 07:44:12 cools. enlighten me, please. 07:44:36 okay, in AI, people are always manipulating symbols, which means nothing, because we always end up with hey, this thing has no common sense 07:45:19 so you say something like person(man) and person(woman) but the freaking computer doesn't know what a man or woman is. 07:45:21 Oh I seem to remember PAIP actually using it at one place there. 07:46:04 segmond: I haven't done no AI work really so this is interesting to me (: 07:46:07 yeah, i know PAIP has something like that, but i think i will be getting to PAIP next year 07:46:14 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 07:46:27 PAIP is not a good AI book though (: 07:46:37 i haven't done any AI work either, but I just see lots of things that are currently being done that are really stupid, so i'm going to take a stab at it too. 07:46:50 schmx, i know, AIMA is a decent one. 07:46:52 segmond: In prolog you'd just do. person(man). person(woman). (: 07:46:52 schmx, well, we can start by trying to give a definition on "AI" 07:47:04 s/on/of 07:47:09 schmx, but the problem is that prolog doesn't know what man is. 07:47:11 oh gosh. 07:47:18 neither do i 07:47:25 segmond: perhaps certain aspects of ai can be derived with genetic algorythms :) 07:47:43 segmond: Well obviously. You would have to tell it. Just like with lisp. 07:47:48 pickles, perhaps, but i'm going for a much simpler approach. 07:47:52 (though lisp still won't know) 07:48:01 i've often thought that its interesting how simple organizations like ant colonies seem to exhibit a a great 'conciousness'; i guess 07:48:07 tic: I have no time for defining AI. I need to catch a train to motala in an hour :D 07:48:08 segmond: interesting 07:48:17 man is a Socrates? 07:48:24 great=greater 07:48:37 no one has done a decent representation of common sense, and it doesn't seem that hard. CyC had the right idea but the wrong approach tho. 07:48:53 common sense? 07:48:59 that sounds plenty hard :) 07:49:04 sounds 07:49:12 sounds is not equal to is. 07:49:16 people don't have common sense. Why would lisp have it? (: 07:49:19 just read papers and watch TV 07:49:29 stassats, right. 07:50:01 thats really an interesting goal 07:50:04 segmond: ok sorry. How does plists make CL aware of what a man is? 07:50:21 HG` [~HG@85.8.72.77] has joined #lisp 07:50:33 schmx, i'm not saying that it does, what i'm saying is we that the symbol man can have more properties that gets us closer to knowing what a man is 07:50:39 segmond: but the wrong approach tho? 07:50:59 first it becomes aware what a man is, then it tries to destroy humankind 07:51:01 segmond: cyc is a lisp application framework .. not an AI 07:51:23 dmiles, what is the goal of cyc? 07:51:56 to make programmers code to a semantic api so models could share knowledge 07:52:09 cyc framework exists so that apps an interact over the same specs (ontology) 07:52:22 really? i thought their goal was to represent and achieve common sense reasoning? 07:52:27 anyone writing an app to run on Cyc can install the email module or not the Email modules listens for assertions the EmailOutboxMt 07:52:59 the EmailModuleMt.. must endeavour to present the data in a common sense way 07:53:39 which means a entity that would have an email address and a infromation bearing thing.. such as an jpeg 07:54:07 segmond: Maybe just make a class and some mixin classes or something then. heh. 07:54:18 i haven't paid attention to them recently, with them being so lost, it makes sense if they narrow their goals and change from their original goals, i'm more interested in artifical general intelligence 07:54:19 so one =ight use (#$email #$DougLenat #$AcceptigFn #$Invitation-345345))) 07:54:26 segmond: You can obviously do the exact same thing in prolog, you just represent the information in another way. 07:54:30 dmiles, "Cycorp's vision is to create the world's first true artificial intelligence, having both common sense and the ability to reason with it. " 07:54:33 (#$email #$DougLenat (#$AcceptigFn #$Invitation-345345))) 07:54:57 (instead of email address and text for instance) 07:55:33 right via a moduluar approach.. i am kinda a zealot but so far they have the only sane approach to coding i have seen 07:55:42 again, my statement on their wrong approach is on their approach to representing common sense. schmx, i don't know prolog well enough, but from the approach that i have been thinking, only lisp seems to be able to pull it off. :) 07:55:48 dmiles, and what do you think of opencog? 07:56:01 prolog is awesome.. i spent 90% of my time trying to take prolog and make cyc do it.. damned thing 07:56:26 segmond: only lisp is turing-complete? 07:56:30 (: 07:56:40 but it forces to much onpotlogy and problem description 07:56:47 i think novamente/opencog are the only sane AI projects that i have seen lately. 07:56:56 i likje opencog.. but not enough Turkism 07:57:06 stassats, i'm not a computer scientists, i'm a hacker, who cares? :) 07:57:08 *dmiles_afk* finds the defination he means one.. sec 07:58:28 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:58:29 hackers tend to create and computer scientists tend to study, after i'm done hacking it, the computer scientists can then refine it. 07:58:42 dang i am refering to http://aws.amazon.com/mturk/ .. but some english i could sya would be clearer 07:59:04 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:59:17 what i mean to say is opencog doses have enough big deisgn up front to make it work with its many modules 07:59:25 segmond: But you are spending your time reading instead of hacking? 07:59:34 but if it makes hackers do good code.. we better not distract them by compalaining 07:59:37 schmx, hackers love to read too. :-) 07:59:44 and how do you call someone who doesn't impose definitions on others? 07:59:54 I am very happy to load all of opencogs modules into Cyc so they can run and be used 08:00:02 segmond: anyway. It is nice that you have some project that motivates you, and that you have found a language you like. But thinking only lisp makes it possible seems a bit.. odd (: 08:00:48 schmx, i think only lisp makes it possible very easily the way i'm thinking. you can probably do it in asm too. 08:00:52 my applying a StructuredKnowledgeSourceWrapper.. they way cyc would have to with any non sematic database 08:00:55 my/by 08:01:09 well time to go 08:01:12 happy hacking 08:01:13 take care, later. 08:02:08 LarKC is the first time Cyc exposed its module API 08:02:20 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:02:21 -!- pnq [~gaiug@ACA3548E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:02:21 but left out 80% of the modules 08:02:44 but doesnt stop people from making them again 08:03:20 what cyc is the blackboard system that give a nice mutlithreaded lisp 08:03:32 dmiles, well you see what i don't. :) but i have seen enough not to believe in their approach. 08:03:46 the KB is great.. but it indeed is hard to use "today" 08:04:06 dmiles, and i highly doubt it will get any easier to use in the future! 08:04:16 no ones has written apps to use their KB.. barely even cycorp has tried 08:04:45 for the amount of time/money that has gone into building that KB? but then again hindsight is 20/20 and perhaps that's why i don't agree with their approach. 08:04:50 dmiles, perhaps because they can't! 08:04:59 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:04:59 -!- gonzojive [~red@128.12.248.192] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 08:05:08 it's easy to collect data, but if you can't figure out way to use that data or make sense out of it, what's the point? 08:05:18 you can't say, "great collectiong of data!" 08:05:32 i never said cycorp will ever make use of their KB.. but at least they build it 08:05:55 and if the very people that built it can't make use of their own data, what makes you think anyone else will? 08:05:58 enthymeme [~kraken@76.252.171.37] has joined #lisp 08:06:33 it very rare cycorp actualyl makes up the data usually they glean it form someone else.. stuff is so recycled it hard to say who made it up first 08:06:50 that's like microsoft not using their own OS or compiler, you gotta eat your own dog food. 08:07:03 scottj [foobar@174-21-110-104.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:16 well they do eat it.. but only in small proprientary checks they arnt allowed ot use on the next project 08:07:23 check/chunks 08:07:26 dmiles, i agree, they get the data from elsewhere, but they understand the structure of the data more since they picked that strucutre and designed it and the rules for enterting it. 08:07:45 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:08:00 yes.. but they learned making a good infenrce engine is hard.. so they are nothing but a data collection company as of 12 years ago 08:08:07 (or maybe longer) 08:08:25 http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com/ <----- xach, top post is about our new compo :) 08:08:37 well, they need to update their goal and website as to who they are. i agree, they are a data collection company. 08:08:38 soi they are waiting for other designers of nfernce engines to embed into their framework 08:09:01 google is a data collector company and is doing a better job than them too. 08:09:26 i know .. the most evvil thing AIish people do they are horrid about setting proper expectations.. and when the customer over estimates.. its not a rule to set them straight 08:09:42 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:10:00 otherwise you spend all your time telling your customer what you cant give 08:10:27 so they talk about what they hope to one day achive.. and that could be next year or 5 years. who knpows 08:10:41 just like right here.. i am predicting AI will need cyc's framework 08:10:47 but i cant prove it 08:11:00 dmiles, i'm setting a small expectation. :) i think the problem we face is trying to do things the "best way", who cares what the shortest path is so long as i can find a path? 08:11:15 i just know that everything i do if it dont plug into something that is like that.. the code will never get used by the inventor of AI 08:11:31 i don't know the shortest path to places around my city unless i use my navigation system, i just know common paths and reason approximately shortest paths. 08:11:54 why dont that navigation export is data in a clean way for use by AI? 08:11:57 trying to find the best solution is hard, we need to learn from game programmers 08:12:12 are they wanting the AI to use a mouse and webbrowresrer ? 08:12:27 dmiles, exactly, just like we use tools, an AI machine should be able to use tools, we can't expect it to know everything itself. 08:12:37 well at least they are programmically accessable already.. no compiants 08:12:48 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:12:50 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 08:13:19 i want to spend time building tools for an AI 08:13:35 dmiles, that is not a problem, it's easy to implement tools in Unix and pipe the output to your program. so we have many tools already that can be integrated in a clean way. 08:13:42 dmiles, let's build the AI first. 08:14:08 I am starting to build an AI.. kind of but its more of a "Planner" with "Goals" i decided made sense 08:14:09 but i think AI folks need to take a look at game programmers, game programmers don't try to perfect things, those that do, never ship. they do "best for now, right now" 08:14:41 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.161.239.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:15:02 but i set my expectations low for my AI.. just carry out plans and goals .. and let me control explicitly 08:15:10 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:15:29 and evetualyl others will invent new ways for it to carry things out .. and new ways for it to come up with new goals 08:15:31 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:15:45 life is a moving target, trying to have the fastest, most correct is a quick way to lose sight of goals, you will always stay playing catch up. dmiles, instead of plan and goals, my goal is to do a good grasp of NLP 08:16:27 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.202.104] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:16:41 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:17:04 lets ay a robot could do this.. http://opensim4opencog.googlecode.com/files/E2C.html 08:17:12 (sorry for the fragged mime type) 08:17:40 it still takes an actor model to make use of it 08:17:42 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:24 dmiles, of course, and that is why i like novamente/opencog, AI must be embodied to be truly general 08:18:29 that actor model so far is pretty basic.. aquire.. insert.. reaquire goals.. try.. get feedback.. and restart 08:18:57 dto, your games on xe2/downloads, do they have source? 08:19:01 the same way NNs/GAs ewhere the first to walk.. indeed they might be the first that think 08:19:13 segmond: yes. http://github.com/dto/xe2 08:19:41 okay, downloading cons right now. :) 08:19:43 so novamente/opencog might end up working out.. if they do they will be assimulated ;) 08:20:08 I just been trying to figure out what to offer them.. 08:20:11 segmond: cool :) what platform 08:20:15 linux 08:20:44 i remember seeing a video of one of your demo games a while ago, impressive. one of the things that made me say, hey, lisp has come a long way, time to learn it. 08:21:00 we built this for opencog http://code.google.com/p/opensim4opencog/ 08:21:02 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:16 nunb [~nundan@59.178.202.57] has joined #lisp 08:21:33 but so far only cyc seems to drive it arround using TheSims like toploop per AI 08:22:26 the petaverse to me was really a good idea.. it needs to keep going 08:22:28 segmond: check the CONS page for linux user notes.... prerequisite libraries. 08:22:33 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.161] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:22:49 what's the petaverse 08:23:09 btw i have been playing a great piece of software called Little Big Planet, anyone know about what it's written in ? 08:23:12 its opencog's embodiement to test their theory of general AI 08:23:28 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:23:46 petaverse.. a pet that follows and wathes a human 08:23:58 watches the human and interacts in a virtual world 08:24:05 ahh. 08:24:10 dto, where's the CONS page? 08:24:26 http://dto.github.com/notebook/cons.html 08:24:35 thanks 08:25:04 (I been working on making Cyc do that as well).. they are far ahead of me though becasue i forcing alot of ontology.. but i think in the end it will help 08:25:50 (the learning alogrythem i think is the same) 08:26:11 observe and aproximate a model 08:26:46 dmiles_afk: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/bachelor-thesis.pdf describes low-level parts of a CL plan language DSL 08:26:58 play out that model as closly as world lets you--- which it ussually doesnt-- rollback little peices and try again.. build working segments.. and rate tehm 08:27:12 it's open source 08:27:36 awesome ... looking 08:28:46 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:58 -!- moeffju[Away] is now known as moeffju 08:30:02 -!- gospch [~gorspch@unaffiliated/gospch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:30:14 tcr: perfect framework as far as i can tell 08:30:25 CPL has been easier for poeple .. RPL harder but unless its done its not done 08:30:39 Stattrav [~Stattrav@110.224.65.139] has joined #lisp 08:30:44 ? 08:30:48 well i am still getting the defiernces sorted into my head 08:31:28 differnces between the State representation Language vs the Panner representation 08:31:47 What's state representation language? 08:32:09 things that palns plan on changing 08:32:22 things that plans plan on changing.. and things they cant 08:32:48 Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:32:55 state rperentation tells you if a plan succeeded or failed 08:33:21 sorry i will spelll better but reading while typing ;) 08:34:11 dto, so i have to go through all that installation steps to run it? :) 08:34:26 segmond: not the INSTALL file 08:34:39 the binary is self contained , all you need is the sdl libs and possibly a small config file 08:34:47 yes it's a pain on linux. on windows you just click it, same for mac. 08:34:52 (tcr: and i think i reversed CPL and RPL) 08:35:00 dto, i have the sdl libs installed 08:35:03 and sbcl, so how do i run it? 08:35:07 dmiles_afk: I'm not familiar with the higher-levels of cram involving reasoning and plan transformation. But my supervizer is going to set up an extra repository for cpl etc. and a mailing list. I'll tell you when it's set up. 08:35:23 segmond: the executable run-cons in the folder, contains sbcl and all the libs 08:35:36 trc: i am excited .. please please do 08:36:05 ah, you packaged it. and if i don't want to use that, i can just build from the source. 08:36:22 certainly. that's what the INSTALL file is for 08:36:40 the binary is very helpful for non lispers to run the game 08:37:00 okay, just curious, is the data contained in the binary as well? 08:37:21 no, it's mostly in the cons subdirectory. 08:39:13 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:42:34 tcr: now i seeing why the thread stuff was so important 08:43:25 (for ABCL its used extensively in your user manaul) 08:44:44 What do you mean? 08:45:51 section 3.1 that shows the task specificaion system.. uses alot of thread control 08:47:02 Well it's basically just two things, killing and suspending. But getting those right is not easy. 08:47:31 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@110.224.65.139] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:48:04 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.161.239.38] has joined #lisp 08:50:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 08:51:18 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.202.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:52:11 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-128-62.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:19 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:53:41 nunb [~nundan@59.178.202.57] has joined #lisp 08:55:14 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:56:46 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:58:03 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59:32 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:18 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:15 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-93b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:02:32 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.202.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:02 nunb [~nundan@59.178.215.100] has joined #lisp 09:04:58 debiandebian_ [~chatzilla@ntszok022039.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:06:29 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok022039.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:06:39 -!- debiandebian_ is now known as debiandebian 09:07:19 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:09:08 iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:16 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:14:02 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:16:09 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@76.252.171.37] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 09:17:07 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 09:18:09 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-41-89.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 09:19:38 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-94-192.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:20:11 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA6502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:21:17 tcr1 [~tcr@118.101.175.133] has joined #lisp 09:21:55 -!- aw|rerun is now known as aw 09:23:26 -!- tcr [~tcr@115.132.75.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:23:50 When using OPEN, ":if-exist :supersede" asks the implementation not to destroy the old file until the new stream is closed if possible. What should I do if I don't want to ask this to the implementation ? 09:24:44 -!- pickles [~rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:24:46 hypercube31 [~hypercube@253.240.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:25:41 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:27:40 kuwabara: there are other options for if-exists 09:28:42 Xach: I can't seem to find which one is the most similar to "just truncate and write" 09:30:16 TeMPOraL [~user@178.182.178.186.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:31:02 -!- Rigdern [~Rigdern@foxy-60.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Rigdern] 09:31:06 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.18.232.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 09:32:55 kuwabara: I don't know of one either. I frequently use :supersede. 09:33:38 Xach: I'm going to do this, too. Thanks. 09:37:24 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:38:15 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:40:27 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:41:55 nha [~prefect@p3E9E3354.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:50 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:45:13 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 09:48:57 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51:58 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.161.239.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:52:45 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754068.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:45 -!- scottj [foobar@174-21-110-104.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:53:15 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:54:33 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.20] has joined #lisp 09:54:39 kuwabara: keep in mind that the intended lisp machine semantics don't make much sense anyway. And worse, if you're on SBCL, that implementation doesn't even attempt to follow the spec for most of these options. 09:56:08 freiksenet [~freiksene@193.166.11.250] has joined #lisp 09:59:04 trebor_home [~user@dslb-088-069-133-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:44 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:04:56 pup [~pup@cpe-65-28-173-217.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:05:16 Anybody on? 10:07:12 pup: hundreds! 10:08:55 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:12:17 love jah to the fullest 10:14:02 pup: You must be new here, right? 10:14:52 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:17:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19:38 -!- ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:23:47 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:23:59 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.85.45.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:27:29 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:28:11 gonzojive [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 10:30:17 Yuuhi [benni@p54839A56.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:29 on sbcl, :if-exists seems to follow unix open(2) flags 10:32:33 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:32:42 which makes most sense in this context 10:34:43 Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:35:06 kuwabara: what about :if-exists :overwrite :direction :output ? 10:37:25 ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:40:00 pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has joined #lisp 10:40:19 ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.85.37.99] has joined #lisp 10:40:55 -!- galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 10:41:18 -!- gonzojive [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 10:42:28 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:45:03 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:47:18 Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-3-246.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:06 -!- pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has quit [Quit: pbalogh] 10:49:23 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-128-62.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:50:15 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:52:44 -!- hypercube31 [~hypercube@253.240.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:53:49 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:54:37 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.18.232.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: asdf] 10:55:07 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0063-25-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:21 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:57:11 pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has joined #lisp 10:57:27 gospch [~gospch@unaffiliated/gospch] has joined #lisp 10:58:45 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:00:05 -!- segmond [~seg@adsl-99-103-112-247.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:02:26 yeah, I'm new. I just started learning last night because I am learning lambda calculus. 11:02:59 merl15 [~merl@188-22-160-190.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:03:04 pup: Modern Lisp doesn't have much to do with the lambda calculus, though. 11:03:26 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 11:03:39 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:04:02 Can one language really change that much? 11:04:09 You bet! 11:04:13 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:05:04 11:05:07 Damn. 11:05:07 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.215.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:05:09 I mean, they could have named it something else, but it still feels like Lisp, even though now it is a powerful multi-paradigm (functional, object-oriented, imperative) langauge. 11:05:17 what version of lisp is based off of labda? 11:05:21 *lambda 11:05:28 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.33] has joined #lisp 11:05:43 pup: It's not really one language. It's barely even a family of languages :) 11:05:54 pup: CL has lambda, but that doesn't mean it is "based" on it. 11:06:02 pjb: :overwrite doesn't truncate. If the new content is smaller, the old content is kept at the end 11:06:13 Huh. Misconception get. 11:06:27 Oh well. At least its fun! :) 11:06:45 so, forget about lambda calculus and just learn Lisp 11:07:23 *shhrug 11:07:35 I'll probably learn it anyway. 11:08:29 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 11:09:48 I've got school. I'll probably be on later. 11:09:48 Bye 11:09:59 -!- pup [~pup@cpe-65-28-173-217.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:11:36 -!- ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:11:43 ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:14:48 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 11:15:45 jgracin_ [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 11:15:53 -!- jgracin_ [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:16:07 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:17:07 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:20:17 synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-178-72.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:32 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 11:22:15 -!- aw [~aw@ip-90-186-77-171.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:24:29 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:26:37 hello! Is it possible to call function 'other', when I'll call function which is not defined? 11:27:14 mrSpec: Catch the error and call the other function. 11:28:00 Ah, thanks. 11:28:22 (handler-case (make-me-a-millionaire) (undefined-function () (print "Bad luck"))) 11:29:33 the better way would be to check before calling 11:29:42 mrSpec: Uh if possible, rather use FBOUNDP first (but be aware that macros and special operators are fbound too) 11:29:46 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@178.182.178.186.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:30:27 clhs fboundp 11:30:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fbound.htm 11:30:35 I'll read about it, thanks :) 11:31:46 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-143-170.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:34:24 -!- pbalogh [~pbalogh@2002:457c:851b:0:223:6cff:fe98:beef] has quit [Quit: pbalogh] 11:35:09 stassats: Your new maxima patch works fine (for the little bit of testing I've done). 11:35:21 One more question, is using apply bad style? I have tree. I'm thinking about define function which prints list, and then call apply on the first element of tree. 11:35:33 I'm not sure if it is optimal. 11:35:38 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:36:42 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:39:04 mrSpec: i didn't understand what you're doing 11:39:42 ok I'll show example :) 11:39:52 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:37 mrSpec: Apply is used when you don't manipulate individual arguments to a function, but when you have a list of them, and you don't necessarily know how many there are (just that there aren't too many :) 11:42:02 mrSpec: You need to be more precise when you ask questions. For instance, what is meant by "the first element" of a tree? Also, you call apply on it, so you have a tree of functions? 11:42:05 -!- Beetny` [~Beetny@ppp118-208-3-246.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!] 11:42:57 (apply #'apply tree) ? 11:44:19 aw [~aw@p5DDA92BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:43 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-233-55.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:45:47 stassats: One small issue. With cmucl, running the maxima.core directly, I have to add "--". Otherwise I get some kind of strange error. Could be cmucl bug, or some other bug in command-line processing. 11:46:37 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-248-131.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:19 mrSpec pasted "apply" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/99219 11:48:19 rtoym: sounds right, because you specify --core and cmucl leaves it, but i intended this for when you have an image saved with :executable t 11:48:36 stassats: Just curious. Why do you run the core directly instead of via the script? 11:48:39 I hope this example will help :) 11:49:45 stassats: yes, (apply #'apply tree) is something I'm going to do :) 11:50:15 maden [~maden@dsl-147-208.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 11:50:37 rtoym: i save with :executable t so that the core doesn't have to be rebuilt when i update my lisp 11:51:21 -!- nha [~prefect@p3E9E3354.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:53:58 Ok. I just rebuild since it doesn't take too long. 11:55:33 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.72.77] has quit [Quit: HG`] 11:56:20 -!- sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:58:37 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:45 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:00:01 -!- synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-178-72.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 12:00:43 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:03:15 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:03:20 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:03:45 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:06:37 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B2003A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:08:34 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:09:44 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:11:19 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:16:27 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 12:20:38 stassats: Don't know if this matters or not, but running maxima.core directly is totally confused with your patch. maxima's arg processor is messed up by trying to parse all of the command line. 12:21:21 Ah, most likely because -core is treated as -c -o -r -e, just like normal unix command line processing. 12:22:49 there are two options if there is no "--": either remove all arguments or leave all arguments 12:24:55 There's one more: use cmucl's *command-line-application-arguments* instead of *command-line-strings*. The app args is everything after --, if any. 12:26:28 But there's also something else going on. maxima eventually starts (I see the prompt), but it dies quickly after with a object not base-char error. Don't know what that's about. 12:27:27 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:27:37 But running from the script is fine. I'm inclined to ignore this issue. 12:28:25 gugamilare [~kvirc@200-207-40-188.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 12:28:42 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-83-128.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:56 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:48 davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has joined #lisp 12:31:13 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-248-131.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:40:08 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:42:16 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:36 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@193.166.11.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:54:34 -!- hohoho_ [~hohoho@pa3a20d.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:54:47 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:57:29 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:59:34 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:24 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 13:05:55 -!- merl15 [~merl@188-22-160-190.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:07:38 -!- cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [] 13:07:49 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 13:08:31 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:57 jmbr [~jmbr@bpcmat07.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 13:12:51 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:14:37 I guess I still don't know how to redirect GIT commit messages to the mumble-cvs mailing list. 13:15:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:16:27 Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:16:41 beach: I believe I set it up for gsharp on common-lisp.net 13:17:08 Xof: Do you remember what you did? 13:21:34 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-245-135.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:40 I think I set up some hooks in /project/gsharp/git/gsharp.git/hooks 13:21:50 the ones that don't end in "sample" are likely candidates 13:22:06 mind you, I'm not sure it's been tested 13:24:01 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-83-128.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:24:25 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:02 -!- aw [~aw@p5DDA92BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 13:27:29 Xof: OK, that's a good start for now. Thanks! 13:28:55 rrice [~rrice@76.211.6.129] has joined #lisp 13:31:06 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:33:55 -!- easyE [w0m7h01gln@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:34:06 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0063-25-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:34:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:42:18 I can't remember what instructions I followed to do that 13:44:44 I'll do some googling to find out. I find the code in the relevant script hard to follow. 13:45:22 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 13:46:08 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:46:40 mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:42 luis: the other luis oliveira has blogged about ELS 13:47:45 no more excuses 13:48:01 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 13:48:12 pbalogh_ [~pbalogh@12.14.38.6] has joined #lisp 13:49:09 beach: for the well-known hook scripts, the address is in git/.config 13:49:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:49:16 erm, .git/config I mean 13:49:35 lichtblau: Thanks! 13:51:13 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.0] has joined #lisp 13:53:55 cbeok [~user@lnk2-themill-gw.binary.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:57 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@bpcmat07.mat.ucm.es] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:55:03 schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:58:45 Xof: Did you modify that script in any way? 13:59:07 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:01:57 I'm afraid I can't remember 14:02:20 OK. You probably didn't. 14:02:52 Guthur [~michael@host213-122-220-102.range213-122.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:15 sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@ma60736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:15 -!- sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@ma60736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:03:15 sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:03:46 -!- sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Client Quit] 14:04:05 sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 14:05:06 -!- cbeok [~user@lnk2-themill-gw.binary.net] has left #lisp 14:05:50 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:06:28 pers [~user@199.sub-75-220-185.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:12 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:09:08 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754068.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:25 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0063-25-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:56 -!- leifw [~user@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:11:32 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:07 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-23-215.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:14:48 peterbb [~peterbb@38.80-202-94.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:18 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-233-55.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15:49 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:39 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-233-55.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:22:09 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-26.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 14:22:31 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-102-238.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 14:25:22 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:26:32 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 14:26:46 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:30:46 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:27 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0063-25-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:31:33 Xof: It works, except that the project is indicated as "UNKNOWN PROJECT". I am thinking there must be a line in config such as projectname = . 14:34:04 easyE [MQni2c0jyC@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:36 Xof: heh. 14:34:54 carlocci [~nes@93.37.194.148] has joined #lisp 14:35:51 prxq [~mommer@f050193132.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:19 hi 14:36:28 hello prxq 14:36:44 hi beach 14:37:57 luis: here-p? 14:38:33 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:34 i want to have an object with smart accessors, i.e. (setf (fooslot bar) 'baz) triggers some computation. I'd like to use a metaclass for that, because the computation is regular, and writing the same method over and over again is obviously silly 14:38:36 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xlszqsfxxumzinln] has left #lisp 14:38:54 is there somewhere a ready-made example that can help me avoid learning MOP? 14:38:58 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0063-25-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:08 define a method for (setf slot-value-using-class) 14:39:18 i'd love to learn the mop, but there is a time issue involved 14:39:24 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0063-25-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:39:24 stassats: is that all? 14:39:39 wait, i'll paste an example 14:39:48 Xof: It takes the project name from .git/description. 14:40:12 mathrick: hi. 14:40:24 luis: got my /msg yesternight? 14:41:54 stassats: that would be really great 14:42:16 such an example is probably all I need anyway 14:43:06 I *WIN*! 14:43:21 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:43:55 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:44:28 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:06 asarch [~asarch@189.188.199.114] has joined #lisp 14:46:10 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:58 stassats pasted "for prxq" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/99228 14:47:03 prxq: something like this 14:47:33 aw [~aw@141.76.6.216] has joined #lisp 14:50:02 stassats: thanks! 14:53:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:54:23 -!- pers [~user@199.sub-75-220-185.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:54:40 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-168-128-117.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:55:42 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:45 what happened to sbcl.org? 14:55:55 nothing? 14:56:23 (don't forget www.) 14:56:24 it's down 14:56:27 oh 14:56:39 that's silly 14:57:02 a good question would be why it needs the www :-) 14:57:13 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:58:00 -!- mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:58:14 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:58:15 -!- gugamilare [~kvirc@200-207-40-188.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3900, sources date: 20100125, built on: 2010-02-15 08:38:32 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:58:48 to keep you on your toes 15:00:41 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:01:12 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:44 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:45 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:12 tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:08:19 Greetings lispers. 15:08:27 hello tmh 15:08:35 hello beach 15:09:16 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:09:31 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:10:33 once upon a time, there was a paper/webpage somewhere where a persistency metaclass was implemented to illustrate the use of MOP. Anyone remembers the title or the link? 15:10:39 -!- abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:10:55 Dr. Dobbs? 15:13:01 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:13:37 Paepcke paper? 15:13:52 Phoodus [foo@174-17-12-60.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:16 -!- peterbb [~peterbb@38.80-202-94.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:14:25 mindCrime_ [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:24 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:27 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:15:52 http://diglib.stanford.edu:8091/~paepcke/shared-documents/ see pclos* 15:16:05 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:08 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.147.37] has joined #lisp 15:16:39 adeht: right, that was the one. Thanks! 15:17:23 Didn't find it at Dr. Dobb's, but did find what looks like a good article on the CLOS. http://www.drdobbs.com/high-performance-computing/200000266 15:17:30 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.35] has quit [Quit: off] 15:17:35 adeht: That looks like a good reference, thanks. 15:19:57 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:09 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:28 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-205-40.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:46 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:37 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:25:03 interesting that dr dobbs publishes an article on CL in 2007. I thought it did only mainstream stuff. Or is CL mainstream again?? 15:25:38 prxq: I'm not sure that the date is correct. I think they are republishing things and that is the republish date. 15:25:44 The date it went digital. 15:25:52 ah ok :-) 15:26:25 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 15:26:36 That's my impression at least, I could be wrong. 15:30:33 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:32:21 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:35:29 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:32 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:37:46 Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:41:11 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:15 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:42:43 marioxcc [~user@200.92.188.98] has joined #lisp 15:43:50 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 15:44:57 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:05 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@118.101.175.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:47:27 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ghccfwwxnptqrlxd] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:47:32 -!- aw [~aw@141.76.6.216] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 15:49:13 milanj [~milanj_@93.86.56.168] has joined #lisp 15:49:14 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:50:17 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:53:15 freiksenet1 [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:53:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:53:35 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:54:17 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.194.148] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 15:55:29 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.188.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:41 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:59 marioxcc [~user@200.92.188.98] has joined #lisp 15:56:14 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:56 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:57:48 -!- freiksenet1 [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:58:08 segv [~mb@p54BE7214.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:56 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:01:40 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:36 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:03:06 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:04:25 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:05:51 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:06:20 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:06:26 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:08:08 dabd [~dabd@a81-84-216-214.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 16:08:10 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:25 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B2003A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:09:18 -!- dabd [~dabd@a81-84-216-214.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:03 dabd [~dabd@a81-84-216-214.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 16:11:24 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0063-25-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:45 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:01 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:12:29 prxq: hu.dwim.computed-class does that 16:15:08 *Fare* implemented the C part of signalfd handling and/or emulation. 16:15:18 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:15:28 should I add it to iolib itself, or plug it in from xcvb? 16:16:29 *attila_lendvai* pokes fe[nl]ix 16:17:04 attila_lendvai: pong 16:17:08 -!- dabd [~dabd@a81-84-216-214.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:18:08 (interestingly, strace dies when I Ctrl-C the process that has an unblock sigint handler for signalfd emulation) 16:18:26 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.174.78] has joined #lisp 16:19:04 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 16:19:42 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE001346f3d041-CM00122500995a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:06 has anyone experience with a libsbcl.a ? 16:21:11 nyef: you there? 16:21:27 what does genesis want statically linked? 16:22:14 I was wondering if I could "just" relink things against a sbclrt.o and hope the code would get the same address and work 16:23:53 can some good willing sbcl hacker explain to me why are the calls to "inherit-constraints" needed in add-eql-var-var-constraint in constraint.lisp? 16:24:02 fe[nl]ix, ping re: iolib 16:24:17 shofetim [~user@97-121-228-198.blng.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:50 Fare: what does the code do ? 16:26:42 it first tries to call signalfd and if successful, blocks the signal, or it creates a pipe, registers a handler that writes a pseudo signalfd_siginfo, and unblocks the signal. 16:27:02 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:27:07 returning a fd where to read blocks of signalfd_siginfo datastructures. 16:27:54 uses a static table of malloc'ed closure environments for the handler to retrieve the fd from the signal number. 16:28:22 Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:29:16 segmond [~seg@adsl-99-103-112-247.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:20 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:36 I can tar the thing and send it to you 16:29:40 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:29:57 Fare: perfect 16:30:40 Rigdern [~Rigdern@foxy-60.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 16:33:57 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.147.37] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 16:35:38 billitch1 [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 16:35:40 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has left #lisp 16:36:12 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 16:37:10 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:36 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE001346f3d041-CM00122500995a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:41:06 -!- shofetim [~user@97-121-228-198.blng.qwest.net] has left #lisp 16:44:27 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-163-168.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:15 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-139-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:53:20 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 16:53:57 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:10 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-102-238.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:22 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 16:56:20 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:58:09 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-205-40.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:04:21 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:04:23 NNshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-7-10.w92-133.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:05:31 -!- Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-68-30.w92-143.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:05:45 aw [~aw@p5DDA92BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:11 -!- xan_ [~xan@83.34.169.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:21 xan_ [~xan@83.34.169.207] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 17:09:23 dysinger [~dysinger@cpe-98-150-133-209.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:12 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-10-188.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:11:24 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:05 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.166.174.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:35 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:18:46 prxq: (regarding persistency&MOP) you mean User-Level Language Crafting: Introducting the CLOS Metaobject Protocol 17:18:55 minion: mopintro? 17:18:55 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``mopintro''. 17:19:15 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:20:50 damn. search for mopintro.ps 17:23:26 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:48 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 17:24:32 fiveop [~fiveop@64.235.198.242] has joined #lisp 17:25:32 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:33 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:02 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:28:21 laevus [~marc@196-210-171-56-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:30:42 [df]: thanks again for suggesting cdb. it does almost exactly what i need and i can do 30,000 lookups per second. 17:31:47 webdever [~david@64.203.60.56] has joined #lisp 17:32:23 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:36:28 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:01 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:06 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:40:01 Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.96.15.87] has joined #lisp 17:41:20 gugamilare [~kvirc@200-207-40-188.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:42:00 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@117.96.15.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:17 udzinari pasted "blogpost about Lisp - Any suggestions/corrections? - please annotate if any :)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/99241 17:43:55 |gugamilare| [~kvirc@200-207-40-188.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:43:59 -!- gugamilare [~kvirc@200-207-40-188.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:20 -!- segmond [~seg@adsl-99-103-112-247.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:44:58 billitch1 [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 17:44:59 segmond [~seg@adsl-99-103-112-247.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:04 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:41 udzinari: you could include a link to PCL 17:46:53 hmm, how come i'm not seeing what udzinari is typing in here? weird 17:47:51 stassats: I will make the book name appear as a link 17:48:20 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:48:55 oh, he used lisppaste... 17:49:11 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:49:49 merl15 [~merl@188-22-24-220.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:50:03 -!- _3b`` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:50:06 udzinari, do you have lots of readers on your blog? else, why not just point them to similiar blogs? 17:50:47 segmond: udzinari includes a link to planet.lisp 17:51:13 if udzinari's blog is popular, we will see many people coming and saying "hi!" 17:51:22 segmond: as mentioned in the paste, it is a candidate first post 17:51:38 stassats, hence my question on if he has a lot of readers. :) 17:51:58 if he has a lot, then sure, if he has 2 like me, then ... 17:52:50 *i know 25% lisp, lol, i have around 230+ symbols covered* 17:53:53 how do you pretty-print a condition? 17:53:54 knowing all 978 symbols doesn't make you an expert in Lisp 17:53:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53:57 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:53:58 clop: princ 17:54:11 stassats, thanks 17:54:34 stassats, knowing how to use all of decently, makes you more knowledge than the average lispnik 17:55:13 as a matter of fact, i will venture to say it makes you an expert in lisp 17:55:37 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-113-187.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:55:44 show me anyone who can recall 978 symbols and know how to use em and is not an expert. :) 17:56:07 the program is more than a sum of its parts, you need to know how to combine them in the right way 17:56:10 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Quit: f08 "$$$""""$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ "$$$] 17:56:26 that makes you an expert in programming 17:56:31 different from being an expert in lisp 17:56:31 kyeword: decently 17:56:58 i don't know about anyone else, but i program in lisp 17:57:02 if you are an "expert in lisp" you will be able to read lisp programs very comfortably. 17:57:19 and if you read enough programs, you are going to learn how to combine the symbols into new programs. 17:57:33 that's bullshit 17:57:42 why do you say that? 17:57:56 Hun [~hun@95-90-225-75-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:58:04 because theory without practice, and practice without theory don't work 17:58:26 *Xach* will never forget the many times he uses REVAPPEND, CONJUGATE, PHASE, and SCHAR. 17:58:37 well, perhaps i should emphasize that while you are reading those programs, you don't read them in isolation, you write small programs or modify those programs. 17:59:48 lol@xach, right, there is a subset of that 978 that is most often used, what are they? who uses ++ +++ and / // /// 17:59:50 carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.118] has joined #lisp 18:00:03 tsuru` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:13 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:28 Isn't / used for division? :-P 18:00:37 and to be able to use lisp proficiently you need more than symbols defined on CL 18:00:50 implementation details, common libraries 18:01:24 nyef 18:01:43 and also how computer works and how lisp itself can be implemented 18:01:50 "/" is also a variable 18:01:54 dy_overbo [~CrazyEddy@210.8.79.105] has joined #lisp 18:02:08 you should just type / into your lisp prompt. and + is also a variable too 18:02:13 I know. 18:02:16 they are more than functions. :-) 18:02:20 And - is a variable as well. 18:02:48 And the other set, *, **, and *** sees a lot of use from me. 18:03:01 stassats, it depends on what you are trying to do. :) for my project, i don't need any common libraries. 18:04:08 solving general problems 18:04:16 one doesn't need common libraries to be "proficient" in lisp, "most people" need it tho to be "productive" 18:04:25 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@210.8.79.105] has joined #lisp 18:05:00 if you are already "proficient" with lisp, then using common libraries is going to be easy 18:05:03 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 18:05:28 is that a theory? 18:05:54 you could take it as one. :-) i don't see any reason why it shouldn't hold. 18:06:37 -!- dy_overbo [~CrazyEddy@210.8.79.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:06:40 to use CFFI i even need to know C 18:06:41 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@210.8.79.105] has quit [Changing host] 18:06:41 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:06:48 *nyef* has his current environment as SBCL, SLIME, CLX, bordeaux-fft, and clweb... and the clweb bit will probably get removed in the future, and the bordeaux-fft bit doesn't get used much right now. 18:07:12 i'm not saying that you would need to use all 978 symbols in your program every time you program to get "full" use of the language. but there's a lot to knowing can really help with, especially if you are building a very large system. 18:07:36 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:07:42 billitch1 [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:1e4b:d6ff:fe5b:afd3] has joined #lisp 18:07:54 i'm saying that building large systems will help building large systems 18:08:32 i'm saying that knowing all the tools you have at your disposal before building a large system makes it harder, instead of constantly going back to your tool box or to the hardware store to see if the tool you need is available. 18:08:43 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:08:43 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:44 s/makes it harder/makes it easier/ 18:09:14 you'll never know the difference 18:09:45 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-145-180-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:46 a newbie for example, might see the defclass and run with it, and instead of using the :reader :writer might just stick to setting values via setting and reading the object slot access like a structure slot access. 18:11:18 alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 18:12:12 sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-50-3.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:12:31 that's called "learning" 18:13:02 -!- sepult` [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-50-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:38 Xach: Are you using Dan's cdb library itself or have you implemented it in CL? 18:13:40 well, i'm not saying to memorize just the symbol, but to understand what it stands for, be it a variable or a function and then to understand the usage. :) 18:13:52 As a lisp newbie it seems that my main problem is not knowing the billion shortcuts that make lisp so nice 18:14:06 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-78-34-233-55.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:14:27 C in comparison is really easy, since I know about everything I need to know after reading one book 18:14:27 wakeup, what kind of shortcut? what's an example of one you have discovered? 18:14:28 kencausey: Implemented it in CL. 18:14:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:14:46 kencausey: currently only a reader. a writer will take longer. 18:15:48 Xach: Cool, I'd like to see your implementation when it is ready. 18:16:15 segmond: well in C, you have a small set of tools from which you build everything. In lisp there seem to be functions for everything. 18:16:32 wakeup, the shortcuts that makes lisp so nice to me is not having to implement my own list, stack, hashtable, resizeable array, memory management, and functions to manipulate them. 18:16:50 i reckon it's faster to learn how to use those tools than to have to implement them yourself in C. 18:16:54 stack? 18:17:05 stassats, can't we push and pop a list? 18:17:12 hey, a list is a stack is a vector 18:17:37 I learned implementing a hash table by reading k&r :) 18:17:41 kencausey: I can show you something that works, but needs some refactoring... 18:17:42 can't you juggle pointers back and forth? 18:17:59 no, i have got only one arm. 18:18:04 Xach: No rush, I'm willing to wait until you are happier with the code. 18:18:14 segmond: you can juggle with one arm 18:18:26 Xach pasted "cdb-lookup" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/99244 18:18:33 you can walk with one leg too 18:18:51 after juggling chainsaws, you may have to 18:18:57 *kencausey* peeks 18:19:22 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-50-3.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:19:39 I love pointers 18:19:56 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0063-25-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:59 *hefner* loves bits and bytes 18:20:15 wakeup: thanks for pointing that out 18:20:24 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.85.37.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:20:40 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:20:54 pointers is like a hot ex girlfriend, it was fun, she was good, and hey, i wouldn't mind to hit it from time to time, but she's a bitch and i can live without her, that's why she is an ex. 18:21:11 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-113-187.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: oh dear.] 18:21:33 segmond: Go away. 18:21:56 now, this will be very interesting tho, (a list of 100 most important lisp symbols, followed by the next 100, ...) 18:22:21 xach. ;-( okay. 18:22:21 there is only one important symbol: LAMBDA 18:22:57 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082EA77.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:59 segmond: have fun finding a non-bitch (point of view) 18:23:20 wakeup, i already did. :) 18:23:22 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:23:44 segmond: blasphemy!! 18:24:04 wakeup: If you'd like to talk about it further, please use private messages. 18:24:42 what's the learning curve like for slime for someone with absolutely no emacs experience? 18:25:27 I only use m-x slime and c-x c-e 18:25:30 :> 18:26:23 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082C2C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:27:21 segmond: even if it were possible to draw such a curve, it would be irrelevant wrt. the actual process of learning 18:27:25 dknight [~dknight@59.93.131.206] has joined #lisp 18:27:48 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 18:29:28 fe[nl]ix, just wonder, if it's something someone can get really comfortable with in one week in which case i might as well learn it as i'm learning lisp, or if i should just wait till i start writing sizeable amount of lisp programs before i set the time aside to learn it. 18:30:30 segmond: starting to use slime is very easy 18:30:44 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66619b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 18:31:59 well, i'm using it, but i only live in the REPL and don't know how to do much with it. 18:32:20 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.8] has joined #lisp 18:32:59 segmond: you can evaluate expressions. that's very useful 18:34:30 slime has only 1374 symbols, shouldn't be hard to learn 18:36:03 lol@stassats, i never said common lisp shouldn't be hard to learn, but i will say, if you can learn those 1374 symbols and what they are for, you will definitely know more about slime than me. :) 18:36:10 ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.85.44.251] has joined #lisp 18:36:33 brickhazel [~brickhaze@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 18:36:35 gonzojive [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:36:46 there should be a "who knows more symbols" comptetition 18:36:49 gee, why is everyone chewing me up for focusing on learning the standard symbols? PCL is not for everyone. we all gotta use the approach that works best for us. :) 18:37:13 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-36-108.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:38:12 er, "PCL is not for everyone" ? 18:38:28 yup, not for everyone. 18:38:33 fe[nl]ix: No, some people use CLOSette instead 18:38:50 :D 18:39:23 nyef: yep. there was a talk about that at the last ELS 18:39:36 Oh? 18:39:48 (When are we going to see ELS blog entries on planet lisp, anyway?) 18:40:08 i for one, don't care much about the "practical" in common lisp in terms of working with sockets, gui, databases, i will learn those in due time, i care more about the language itself and all that it offers since i have a very large scale project in the future, which will really depend on very little outside library... 18:41:15 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:37 nyef: Jerry Boetje started an impl. named CL-for-Java at the university of Charleston, where he's teaching 18:41:44 and they use closette 18:43:43 Ah. 18:43:58 CLOSette is apparently a very popular starting point for CLOS in new implementations. 18:44:13 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:44:17 quodlibetor [~user@ool-18baa8f1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:00 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:23 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:47:55 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Quit: alinp] 18:48:58 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:50:16 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:50:18 -!- pbalogh_ [~pbalogh@12.14.38.6] has quit [Quit: pbalogh_] 18:55:10 pbalogh [~pbalogh@12.14.38.6] has joined #lisp 18:57:11 -!- brickhazel [~brickhaze@63.144.132.78] has left #lisp 18:58:38 -!- laevus [~marc@196-210-171-56-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:00:40 _3b [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:08 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:46 _3b` [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:46 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:02:53 fe[nl]ix, still here? 19:03:00 laevus [~marc@196-210-171-56-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:03:05 how do I include C code in a Lisp project? 19:03:17 using cffi wrappers? 19:03:27 shall I have a big (c "...") statement? 19:04:47 I thought writing system code in Lisp was awkward, well, writing it in C is worse! 19:05:32 I'm trying to use zpg-ttf to load a ttf font in sbcl, and I keep getting the following error: "debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR in thread #: The value #(0 -3 -4 -5 -83 -84 -85 -86 -87 -89 -92 -94 ...) is not of type (VECTOR (UNSIGNED-BYTE 16))." any ideas? 19:05:54 *zpb-ttf 19:05:55 Fare: http://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib/blobs/master/src/syscalls/ffi-wrappers-unix.lisp#line27 19:07:15 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 19:07:15 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 19:07:15 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:10:09 davertron: What version of zpb-ttf are you using? 19:10:23 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:41 fe[nl]ix, do I need a wrapper at all? or can I just use a big (c ...) statement and then a defcfun ? 19:11:23 I finalized the C code, now trying to integrate with Lisp 19:11:24 hmm 19:11:30 Fare: you can, in different files 19:11:39 Xach: looks like 1.5? 19:11:46 -!- dknight [~dknight@59.93.131.206] has left #lisp 19:11:46 Xach: it came from Ubuntu 9.10's repos 19:12:04 (about 120 lines) 19:12:22 davertron: Well, that was fixed in the latest release, which happened in 2008. 19:12:27 so one file with just a big c, and another one with a defcfun ? 19:12:38 davertron: If ubuntu is out of date, you can get it from my site, http://xach.com/lisp/zpb-ttf/ 19:12:41 or a single file with a big c and a defwrapper? 19:12:54 Fare: the latter is better 19:12:58 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:12:59 Xach: ha, yeah, i just found your site 19:13:05 Xach: cool, lemme try that 19:13:47 ok 19:14:29 assuming my function is int install_signalfd(int,int), is this OK? (defwrapper ("install_signalfd" install-signalfd) :int ((signum :int) (sa-flags :int))) 19:14:37 Fare: if you're willing to write a new ASDF component, you could modify the wrapper-file class in CFFI to be able to contain one or more C files and one CL file that defines the bindings 19:14:44 I'd welcome that in CFFI :) 19:14:54 I may do that in the future, just not just yet 19:14:54 Xach: hmmm, not looking good 19:14:57 Xach: same error 19:15:01 Fare: yes, that's correct 19:16:33 Xach: hold on, maybe i wasn't importing it correctly, i was probably still getting the ubuntu one... 19:17:38 Xach: is the package name i should be loading with asdf "zpb-ttf" or "zpb-ttf-system"? 19:18:55 zpb-ttf 19:19:10 Xach: ok, looks like i got it to work that time 19:19:16 Xach: thanks 19:19:33 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 19:21:38 davertron: You're the second user, by the way! What great things will you do with zpb-ttf? 19:22:00 Xach: well, i'm currently learning cl and openGL at the same time 19:22:11 Xach: right now, I'm just trying to make a simple graphing lib 19:22:38 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-3-246.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:42 Xach: that I'm hoping to get to work with real-time data 19:22:50 Xach: some fancy visualization stuff 19:22:56 Xach: maybe some games eventually too though 19:23:20 Xach: it looks like it loads correctly now, although I'm just getting a filled rectangle where the text should be...any ideas? 19:24:22 What text? 19:24:34 What are you using to draw? 19:24:40 cl-opengl 19:24:53 No idea, sorry. Never tried it. 19:25:03 Xach: ah, ok 19:25:09 Xach: I'll figure it out :) 19:25:14 Xach: I'm probably just doing something wrong 19:25:23 where is there an example of event loop with iolib, already? 19:25:56 -!- Rigdern [~Rigdern@foxy-60.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Rigdern] 19:26:33 *Fare* uses Google and finds http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~psilord/blog/data/iolib-tutorial/tutorial.html 19:27:19 nha [~prefect@p3E9E3354.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:57 -!- moeffju is now known as moeffju[Away] 19:32:19 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:59 Rigdern [~Rigdern@marvin-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 19:37:50 TeMPOraL [ojej@ennyn.dsV.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 19:41:55 fe[nl]ix, here? How do I access sizeof(signalfd_siginfo) from Lisp? 19:41:59 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:08 using wrapper-file, if possible 19:43:58 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:24 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 19:44:39 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:45:56 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:46:02 14WAAMU1K [57o9@57o9.org] has joined #lisp 19:47:51 -!- 14WAAMU1K is now known as bgs100 19:48:02 -!- bgs100 [57o9@57o9.org] has quit [Changing host] 19:48:02 bgs100 [57o9@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:49:50 -!- gonzojive [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 19:50:38 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 19:52:25 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 19:57:00 -!- Rigdern [~Rigdern@marvin-02.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Rigdern] 19:59:15 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:00:06 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:00:45 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:50 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:45 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02:11 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:03:35 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:03:48 gonzojive [~red@171.66.56.133] has joined #lisp 20:08:44 Rigdern [~Rigdern@dagny.dyn.cs.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 20:09:14 -!- Rigdern [~Rigdern@dagny.dyn.cs.rpi.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:18 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:10:31 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:19 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:14:33 -!- asarch [~asarch@189.188.199.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:15:02 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 20:15:39 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-191-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:08 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 20:25:17 ApeShot [~user@24.136.204.6] has joined #lisp 20:25:32 Does anyone know of a sort of sexpression front end for C? 20:25:37 tant__ [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has joined #lisp 20:25:48 ApeShot: GambitC 20:25:49 Like something hosted in Scheme or CL so you can write macros? 20:26:00 or ECL 20:26:02 Fade: elaborate. 20:26:08 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 20:26:15 Fade: I don't think these fit the bill. 20:26:23 a scheme and a cl implementation that compiles to C 20:26:33 Fade: I am looking for something with the same semantics as C, but with s-expressions,. 20:26:55 Fade: static, no garbage collection. Just a different face on the C language. 20:27:01 i've never heard of such a thing if it can even exist. 20:27:11 Fade: it is trivial that it can exist. 20:27:48 well, you should be able to turn off GC in ECL, although I've never tried. 20:27:51 ApeShot, many people have done things like that 20:27:59 ApeShot, what is the usage pattern though? 20:28:03 Fare: I'd figured. I am in the middle of it right now. 20:28:18 cffi-grovel's ffi-wrapper's (c "...") does that, in a very crude way :) 20:28:38 Fare: usage would be that I am a numerical modeler (one hat, anyway) and I write a lot of one-off c code which it would be nice to graft a sophisticated macro system on. 20:28:40 otherwise, coyotos had their C-like language in SEXP 20:28:45 BitC 20:28:50 -!- laevus [~marc@196-210-171-56-wrbs-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: laevus] 20:28:54 Fare: BitC i have looked at 20:29:04 Fare: but they are moving away from sexpressions. 20:29:24 Fare: additionally, I don't think its got a macro system 20:29:42 not SEXP, but interesting, there is XTC 20:30:00 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:30:04 Fare: really, you want to have the translator and the macro system written in a higher level language, and just steal the reader and sexpressions 20:30:18 compiling to C with a thought towards superoptimizing numerical code, there is stalin 20:30:27 Fare: I've considered it 20:30:45 ThinLisp has C semantics. 20:31:36 I'm sure I've seen announces for thin sexp syntactic wrappers of C before. 20:31:47 to generate C code from Lisp. 20:32:13 Fare: thinlisp looks close to what I want. Too bad its documentation is sparse. It would practically be easier to built something myself. 20:32:21 I also saw an interface to some real C parser for Scheme. 20:32:25 build. Maybe, anyway. 20:32:37 Fare: that sounds even closer and much easier. Where? 20:32:38 handling the then full-fledged C syntax 20:32:43 gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.19.11.138] has joined #lisp 20:32:55 (after CPP pre-processing) 20:33:06 psh, C without CPP is almost useless 20:33:22 -!- guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:33:27 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:33:27 -!- leadnose [leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:33:37 it is? 20:33:47 well, they were using that for partial evaluation 20:34:16 I am surprised that C is the only language in its niche. 20:34:20 Only well used. 20:34:32 Rigdern [~Rigdern@foxy-60.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 20:34:39 googling for C parser, the first answer, ravi, looks like it's in Scheme. 20:34:55 I guess it might be possible to use something like standard ML for modeling 20:35:06 modeling what? 20:35:13 Neural networks. 20:35:38 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:43 I kind of hate the available options, and I roll my own conductance based models a lot, usually in C. 20:36:01 I wrote an elaborate preprocessor that allowe imbedded lua for the job awhile back 20:36:05 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:36:08 It does what I want, but now I am big lisp guy 20:36:30 And so I want to ditch non sexp based languages 20:36:41 Mostly so I can easily transform code 20:36:50 ApeShot, the problem is not that there is no solution, but that there are too many of them, none 100% satisfactory. 20:37:03 Fare: classic lisp problem 20:37:11 Fare: it is too easy to make and too hard to make perfect. 20:37:15 Why wouldn't Gambit or ECL fit in this case? 20:37:26 cmsimon [~iamcms2@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 20:37:31 Too much hassle to get it to compile into efficient code. 20:37:52 Not that it matters for the immediate project - I just want to simulate a cortical microcolumn 20:37:52 -!- rrice [~rrice@76.211.6.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:37:55 50 neurons 20:38:07 Probably without much by way of realistic conductances. 20:38:22 well, gambit has been around a long time, and although I'm no schemer, it has the reputation of being quite speedy. 20:38:29 But I just got my PhD, and I have some time to consider the problem at large, rather than just the project 20:38:44 So I am spending some time thinking about my workflow before the next job starts. 20:39:27 Quite speedy doesn't usually cut it when you model 10000 neurons, or 100000 20:39:37 Usually then you are pulling tricks just to fit everything in memory. 20:39:38 do you have a lot of legacy C systems that prevent you from just going to a compiled lisp? 20:40:13 i guess heavy numerical computation is sort of another strata, domain wise. 20:40:30 even if we allowed that I could write a compiled lisp version that ran at 2-3 times the speed of c (which is unlikely, in my experience) it would be tough to get the memory and everything right 20:40:57 you'd have to be very careful about consing, for sure. 20:41:02 I just want to be able to write a few simple macros in C like (with-malloced ((...)) body...) 20:41:16 Its retarded that you can't do this in C already. 20:41:28 Or that there isn't a static systems level language with an associated dynamic macro system 20:41:46 It is a problem domain I bump into all the time in my business. 20:42:05 And if you look at any non-trivial C project the CPP is being really stretched to accomplish some wild apparent semantics 20:42:14 with-alien in SBCL or CMUCL? 20:42:18 I am surprised no one has forged ahead in this solutions space before. 20:42:36 well, greenspunning aside, it sounds like maybe you (and everybody else in your domain) would be well served by a tool to perform the transformation on the way to a compiled binary. 20:43:05 I am really just wanting a more sophisticated macro system, but its difficult to create one with C's wacky ass syntax. 20:43:14 Hence I want to create an s-expression based syntax on top of C 20:43:15 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as mairoxcc 20:43:30 And CL or even Elisp can do macro expansion before translating it to regular C. 20:43:39 sure 20:43:46 I've actually already started to write an elisp version. 20:44:24 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754068.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:47 i still think it would be worthwhile to look at the lisp->c transforms in gambit or ecl, especially if you're just talking about generating some macroexpansions. 20:45:28 if they're bad, then maybe your effort would improve them etc. 20:45:29 Fade: I will take a look, but I am at least transiently familiar with these systems, and I don't think they'll fit the bill. 20:45:50 Fade: I am sure they are far higher quality than I could produce, so far as lisp->c compilers are concerned. 20:45:59 I am not really a compiler kind of guy. 20:46:35 guaqua [gua@81.90.72.5] has joined #lisp 20:46:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] 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