00:01:38 -!- Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:01:41 Paraselene [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:51 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:02:07 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-27.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:05:00 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:05:01 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec`away 00:05:58 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-27.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:55 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 00:07:06 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0250-168-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09:37 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:10:00 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:10:33 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 00:14:59 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:15:41 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:03 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.164] has joined #lisp 00:18:58 oconnore_ [~eric@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:44 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-61-147.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:46 -!- ski [~slj@c-0712e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:21:51 ski [~slj@c-0712e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:24:23 hello 00:25:27 hello oconnore_ 00:27:08 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:27:55 hehe, i was about to ask a question, but it came to me... 00:28:25 my ecl looks for libecl.so in /usr/lib even when you compile with --prefix=/usr/local 00:28:31 anyways, how are you madnificent ? 00:29:47 I'm fine (and I don't know much about ecl :) 00:30:25 neither do I 00:34:12 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:45 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:39:45 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 00:42:11 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:46:55 konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has joined #lisp 00:49:27 -!- Blkt` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-40-173.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:52:59 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:54:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@11.255.48.60.klj03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:55:14 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:03:00 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-76-195-126-249.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:55 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-76-195-126-249.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:11:07 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-76-195-126-249.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:40 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-76-195-126-249.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:15:01 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:32 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 01:16:22 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:41 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:19:49 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-21-205.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:23:52 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:13 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:24:32 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-128-226.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:52 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:32:08 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:17 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:34 Is the convention to use the *usual-convention* for global variables that aren't meant to be rebound dynamically, but that are still global and not constant? 01:32:56 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:35:46 quotemstr: Yeah. 01:36:07 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-128-226.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:39:05 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:42:37 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-213.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:43 sykopomp|jeejah` [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:56 -!- sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@m810736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:47:38 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-73-103.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:47:55 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:47 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-101-213.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:54:07 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:55:28 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-208.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:32 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C827.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:00:44 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:14 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:23 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d8174e4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:08:36 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 02:09:01 wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d81a33d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:32 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:46 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-208.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:16:09 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-248-235-40.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 02:16:12 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:17:21 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 02:18:29 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:20:32 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-128-32.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:45 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:27:36 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:33:56 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-128-32.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:35:31 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:36:20 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:37:15 -!- sykopomp|jeejah` is now known as sykopomp|jeejah 02:37:32 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 02:37:53 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-197-54.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:12 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 02:50:15 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:29 peddie [~peddie@adsl-99-56-136-129.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:14 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:56 -!- bytecolor [~user@70.133.77.125] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16:45 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:29 hohoho [~hohoho@2002:6fbc:50e3:10:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has joined #lisp 03:21:14 -!- laynor [~user@109.78.61.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21:50 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-71-107.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:24:51 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.56.153.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:29 -!- Appl6 [~steven@c-98-230-53-146.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:43 Appl6 [~steven@c-98-230-53-146.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:10 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.161.239.38] has joined #lisp 03:38:53 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 03:39:22 -!- Guthur [~michael@host86-132-121-145.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:40:36 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 03:42:57 Madsy [~Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 03:43:09 fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:45:09 anyone here using cl-gtk2? 03:45:33 I am trying to make it work on wi32. it's documented to work and i was able to build it with clozure and sbcl, but nothing shows 03:45:47 abend_ [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:34 -!- abend_ is now known as skv 03:47:58 -!- skv is now known as abend_ 03:49:21 -!- abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:49:47 abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:16 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@2002:6fbc:50e3:10:21e:c2ff:feb4:2a5d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:51:29 -!- abend_ [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:52:10 hmm 03:52:32 fusss, gtk+ version? 03:52:59 2.0.0 03:53:53 if i can get it to work on clozure i am set 03:54:51 "CL-GTK2 requires Gtk+ version >= 2.16" ; http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-gtk2/installation.html 03:57:02 oh, thanks :-) 03:58:13 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.161.239.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:58:40 (someone should finally get a winsxs/msi gtk+ installer going) 04:05:10 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:52 it's here, http://www.gtk.org/download-windows.html 04:06:03 i am downloading 2.20 now 04:07:52 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-99-168-93-90.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:15 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:08:54 fusss, notice winsxs/msi part, what you're downloading is a bunch of zipped files in a dir. 04:09:17 right, but i don't mind extracting 04:12:51 just remember to load the libs properly. 04:13:12 SxS would help with that, but then you'd need to write an XML manifest, iirc 04:16:17 -!- easyE [GBEG21THOY@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:19:49 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:20:36 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:25:21 mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 04:33:50 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:52 I wish paredit handled block comments better. 04:38:26 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:42:05 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:42:41 -!- oconnore_ [~eric@c-24-62-202-27.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:46:27 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-52-82-65-84-199.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:48:22 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bepfhzflopnsiwwm] has joined #lisp 04:57:33 -!- DrForr_ is now known as DrForr 04:58:17 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-35-82-250-200-131.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:48 symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:26 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:02:16 symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:39 easyE [sNKZW5tvIf@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 05:06:49 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-151-219.aei.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:13:41 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 05:16:58 zorn [~jz@206-248-133-45.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:06 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:17:18 hohoho [~hohoho@pa3a20d.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:19:45 -!- johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-19.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:20:05 maden [~maden@dsl-151-219.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 05:27:13 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-151-219.aei.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:27:55 leo2007 pasted "ugly" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/99017 05:28:31 it seems slime-indentation.el indents defmethod in an ugly way. 05:30:03 -!- gospch [~gospch@p5088BA12.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 05:30:03 gozpch [~gospch@p5088E650.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:35 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-86-145.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:31:52 A bit excessive on the indent. 05:34:17 yeah 05:37:54 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:43:37 any idea how to disable slime-indentation without restarting emacs? 05:45:43 plage [~user@a81-84-240-140.static.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 05:45:47 Good morning 05:48:45 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:51:13 'morning 05:53:23 bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-133-77-125.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:42 p896gbm [~p896gbm@69-165-129-224.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:54:08 nyef: you there? 05:54:46 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:57:21 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 05:58:36 -!- akm [~Alan@c-67-180-16-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:04:42 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: restart emacs] 06:04:48 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:04:55 *p_l* just calculated that he could get one-way ticket to bordeaux for ~£100. Nice. 06:05:37 From where? 06:05:55 quotemstr: from aberdeen. 06:06:01 all by train :) 06:06:09 Nifty. 06:06:25 Just took a train from Buffalo to Washington, D.C. and back, via New York City. 06:06:29 Surprisingly nice trip. 06:06:49 And it cost about half that. :) 06:07:36 London St Pancras to Bordeaux St Jean departing Wednesday 30th June 2010 => £59, add ~£40 for train Aberdeen -> London King X 06:08:14 we might end up having to take the train from Lisbon to Bordeaux today :( 06:08:57 doesn't sound bad to me. 06:09:18 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-3-182.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:09:29 though I don't know what's the quality of trains in Portugal/Spain (I assume the route would go through both) 06:09:45 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-208-163.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:13:04 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14:15 Do your trains have AC power? 06:14:24 AC power outlets near the seats, that is. 06:17:19 quotemstr: the train I used when I had to go to edinburgh had power sockets and free wifi in standard package 06:17:38 Nifty. 06:17:41 nostoi [~nostoi@166.Red-79-146-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:48 No wifi here, but at least I can tether my cell phone. 06:18:24 -!- spec`away is now known as mrSpec 06:19:31 quotemstr: It depends. But then my computer has enough battery for 14 hours of work. 06:20:12 14?! 06:20:18 From one battery? 06:20:46 *p_l* needs to save money for a new battery - mine works for 5 minutes :/ 06:21:28 Hmm, I get 7-9 hours these days from a single battery. 06:21:39 It's really nice compared to 2-3. 06:21:46 plage: What gets you 14? 06:22:32 Alas, my "work" involves recompiling software, so I tend not to get much work time out of a typical battery. 06:22:42 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@pa3a20d.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22:57 It seems that battery life has improved through power consumption reductions rather than increases in battery capacity. 06:23:16 hohoho [~hohoho@pa3a20d.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:23:56 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has joined #lisp 06:24:33 quotemstr: batteries tend to be physically smaller as well. 06:25:05 I want more joules, dammit. 06:25:16 and while we can make much more powerful batteries, there are issues of containment 06:25:47 eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has joined #lisp 06:26:02 after all, the more powerful battery, the more powerful explosion... 06:26:06 I'll gladly accept the slight risk of scorching my leg. 06:27:42 quotemstr: I'm talking "blow your legs off" kind of explosion 06:27:54 Still a slight risk. 06:28:02 At least give me the _option_. 06:28:22 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:28:44 What we need are little usb diesel generators. 06:28:54 some new advances promise batteries that, while smartphone-sized, would contain enough energy to blow up a house. 06:29:06 Zhivago: The larger version of the battery on a Dell 10v plus an extra battery, and thanks to Ubuntu, which uses less power than (say) Windows. 06:29:37 p_l: Out of conventional voltaic batteries? 06:30:00 -!- symbole [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:15 quotemstr: they were more like capacitors, actually, than batteries. But due to energy density they would work nicely as battery-replacement. 06:30:54 tcr [~tcr@203.82.80.63] has joined #lisp 06:32:22 Interesting if true. 06:32:25 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ggqkbtrodxvfvcbj] has joined #lisp 06:32:51 we are, however, at least a decade from making them in any sensible quantity. 06:33:41 Are you referring to 'supercapacitors'? 06:34:32 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 06:34:35 *quotemstr* realizes how immensely powerful it is to be able to treat strings as streams. 06:34:59 If only they were never treated as arrays ... 06:35:26 Why have replace-in-string return a string when it can take an output stream? :-) 06:36:07 Probably some little efficiency oriented hobgoblin. 06:36:10 Why have some kind of read-from-stream function that returns a string when you can have it take an output stream, and just pass it an output stream that stores a string? :-) 06:36:30 Bah, efficiency. It's already an interpreted Lisp. I clearly don't care about that. :) 06:37:28 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:37:39 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:37:50 some sort of stream-strings. lazy evaluation etc 06:37:51 good morning 06:37:57 hello mvilleneuve 06:38:21 dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 06:38:22 It is "Mon 10 May 07:38:17 2010" 06:39:36 We need a paper called "Streams considered harmful." 06:40:08 yes. everything should be treated as fixed-length arrays. 06:40:20 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-3-182.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:40:20 No, that's an even worse idea. 06:40:22 guaqua: ... allocated statically at program start. 06:40:31 Zhivago: What's your counter-proposal? 06:40:46 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:40:50 The problem with streams is that they produce gratuitous dependencies between successive items. 06:41:04 e.g., given AB, you can't get to B without going through A. 06:41:14 Linked lists are streams in this regard. 06:41:15 Most things in the real world have a definite ordr. 06:41:21 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-65-59.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:41:32 Nah, most things in the real world have only a few ordering constraints. 06:41:46 If you don't need to know A in order to know B, for example. 06:42:33 Probably we should be dealing more with sets than lists. 06:43:20 Or maybe sets of streams, where the streams have each successor dependent upon the precursor. 06:43:46 That's viable, but the overhead of such a system would be high except for stream-sets with large numbers of items. 06:43:55 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-99-168-93-90.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 06:44:05 And largely wasted to represent, say, a file, or a network connection, in which case you want to process items in-order anyway. 06:44:27 Well, the point is that you shouldn't want to process items in-order for files in most cases. 06:44:44 The only time you should want to do that is when you're too stupid to figure out what's in the file. 06:45:31 prefetching is a good reason to process files in-order. 06:45:37 mvilleneuve: The plan was to be back in Bordeaux around noon today, but the flight has been canceled, so I don't know when I'll be back. 06:46:22 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 06:46:23 Imagine that instead of a linear file, you had a set of dependent fragments. You can grab those fragments in any order and the result will be correct. 06:46:42 You can still store those in some arbitrary order in order to benefit i/o caching. 06:46:55 But you can now distribute that processing task across N systems. 06:47:26 maybe bags instead of sets, and maybe files should be serialized representations of things, since it's easier to represent more complicated structures in memory than in files (yay pointers) 06:47:58 Appl6: Bags the same the same as sets, with a counter attached to the values. 06:48:05 Well, if you structure an entire system around such ideas instead of trying to isolate your stream-sets in a single application limited by conventional operating system functionality, you have more freedom. 06:48:34 Sure. 06:48:44 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 06:49:22 in a mathematical sense, yeah sure, a set of ordered pairs, but from a practical standpoint it's more intuitive and relevant to consider a collection of items rather than item, frequency pairs 06:49:44 Appl6: Only if you want to do redundant work. 06:50:40 how does me thinking about a bag as not a set of item, frequency pairs cause me to do more work? 06:50:44 i said nothing about the implementation 06:50:57 Because then you're liable to pull out the same item multiple times. 06:51:01 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 06:51:13 yeah, that's how bags work 06:51:25 In which case you're liable to do the same work multiple times ... 06:51:33 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 06:51:34 Which is why sets of counted items avoids that problem. 06:51:39 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:51:48 in the same sense that sets have multiple implementations, depending on which operations you need to support most efficiently 06:51:57 plage: oh, that sucks, I hope you'll be able to catch another flight soon... 06:52:02 No, that's completely irrelevant. 06:52:38 If two people can both pull out item X from a bag, then both people can do the work that implies. 06:53:03 right, and if you have two X's in your bag, what's wrong with that? 06:53:07 If only one person can pull out item X with a count of 2, then only one person can do the work that implies, and then just drop off the result with a count of 2. 06:53:08 they both need to be handled 06:53:12 No, they don't. 06:53:23 Zhivago: better - there some work on nanoscale-based capacitors, which have even better results than "normal" superconducting ones. 06:53:26 Phoodus [foo@174-22-192-234.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:27 Only one needs to be handled. 06:53:34 well ok, not necessarily, but if you want to handle all the items in the bag you need to handle both 06:53:46 p_l: Cool. I'm looking forward to this mainly for things like bicycles. 06:54:00 unless you're talking only about pure function applications on the bag 06:54:17 appl: Except that if we can guarantee that only one person receives all of the Xes, then it can avoid replicating that work. 06:54:21 Zhivago: theoretical maximum of proposed storage method gives higher output than infamous e=mc^2 :-) 06:54:40 Well, since we're specified that both Xes are independent of one another ... 06:55:03 but that doesn't mean that what we're doing to those X's doesn't have additional state that we have to maintain 06:55:04 p_l: Hmm. I wonder if it will work. 06:55:11 which is why i made the pure function distinction a bit ago 06:55:30 like, the sum of the elements in a bag 06:55:32 Appl: In which case you can't just pull them randomly out of a bag anyhow. 06:55:35 Zhivago: the physics are sound, but we are talking about atomic-level precision needed for manufacturing. 06:55:43 you can 06:55:48 like the sum of elements in a bag 06:56:01 Appl: That can be more efficiently handled with a set of counted items. 06:56:11 Appl: You're doing unnecessary computations with a bag. 06:56:17 i didn't say this is the landmark application of a bag 06:56:26 appl6: Then find a better example :) 06:56:29 but you can have a bag, and you can compute the sum of its elements 06:56:45 disliking my example is kinda lame 06:56:50 if it doesn't work, then OK 06:57:02 but it does, whether it's inefficient or whatever doesn't matter 06:57:15 Your example is lame, you're doing O(N) operations rather than O(unique(N)) operations. 06:57:33 And it doesn't seem to illustrate anything useful that I can see. 06:57:38 you're right, the example is lame, lame and incorrect are distinct 06:57:47 cschreiner [~licoresse@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 06:58:01 I'll settle for "has no point". 06:58:06 and it illustrates that you can pull elements out of a bag randomly AND require external state to be maintained 06:58:36 Appl6: And how does this differ from the set of counted items, except for being less efficient? 06:58:45 which contradicts "In which case you can't just pull them randomly out of a bag anyhow." 06:58:54 -!- tcr [~tcr@203.82.80.63] has left #lisp 06:59:03 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:00:15 it obviously doesn't, they're both bags, the point was that you can't just pull out one X and declare work done 07:00:24 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 07:00:32 or, rather, that giving both X's to the same person allows them to do less work, which you stated above 07:00:38 Sure I can, if it's got a bloody count on it. 07:01:02 In your example it does. 07:01:24 i have a current sum, and then two X's in my bag 07:01:31 how does giving them to the same person help you? 07:01:41 they still have to perform two additions 07:01:44 Then you say sum += count. 07:01:47 just as if you gave the X's to separate people 07:01:50 No, you don't. 07:02:05 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:18 i meant sum+=X; sum+=X either way 07:02:31 or i guess sum+=X+X if the same person got them 07:02:31 As opposed to sum += X*2? 07:02:42 right 07:02:57 that doesn't save any work, it's still the same 07:03:12 Only because your example is so incredibly lame. 07:03:37 ha, well gee sorry 07:03:40 Let's say that you want to compute a histogram of the elements of X. 07:04:03 Sorry, of the elements of the items in the collection. 07:04:10 sounds like (item,freq) would be mighty useful 07:04:45 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:04:55 For pretty much everything other than summing the items of the collection, yeah. 07:05:25 well maybe, i mean the discussion started not too long ago, so i haven't given it much thought 07:05:42 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:06:26 anyway this was so far afield of my original intention 07:06:45 The case where a bag would be useful is where you have a task that requires one X and one Y to solve. 07:06:49 which was merely to say that when i look around at the world, i see a collection of things, rather than thinking (tree, 2) 07:07:07 and i thought the bag, set distinction would go pretty much unchallenged 07:07:51 (and a competing task that requires one Y and one Z) 07:07:59 not that this isn't entertaining, but i thought you should know that i'm not vigorously defending the bag out of any irrational love 07:08:07 Hmm, but then you have a whole other set of problems to deal with. 07:09:36 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-208-163.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:09:44 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:09:48 i'm afraid i don't understand what you're getting at 07:10:04 Just trying to find a case where a bag would actually be beneficial. 07:10:24 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-134-56.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:10:30 if two things required a Y, are you saying that having two copies of Y would be useful because it's parallelizable? in the sense that there wouldn't be contention for read access on the one Y? 07:10:56 No. The case where a bag might be useful is where there was contention for Ys. 07:11:05 This isn't read access but removal access. 07:11:29 anyone here written a web app in plt scheme? 07:11:39 If you weren't consuming the content of the bag, then there would be no benefit. 07:11:51 but wouldn't you just look at the frequency, and if it's not 1 then you don't remove? 07:12:31 Appl: Think of chemistry -- you have a set of atoms, and you want to form molecules. 07:12:48 oh 07:12:51 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:12:53 so move rather than remove 07:12:56 Appl: You have a limited number of X, Y and Zs, and you want to produce XY and YZs. 07:13:05 Appl: Remove from the bag. 07:13:20 ok, i understand 07:13:22 Appl: This is about the only case where I can see a bag in that sense having a benefit. 07:13:29 i was thinking "remove from the universe" rather than "remove from the bag" 07:13:36 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-163-5.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:38 p896gbm: try #scheme. This is a Common Lisp channel 07:18:15 -!- plage [~user@a81-84-240-140.static.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:18:34 oh, well i guess the parallelization example i mentioned would work, though i guess it's a special case of bag elements being "moved" to other processors 07:18:53 Soulman [~knute@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:50 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@166.Red-79-146-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:21:38 -!- eugu [~Miranda@212.1.246.237] has quit [Quit: eugu] 07:24:38 bozhidar` [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 07:27:52 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:29:12 WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:04 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-113-5.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:46 -!- OsamaBinWOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:35:11 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] 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[Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:15:27 Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:17:41 fe[nl]ix: hey 10:18:42 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 10:20:45 -!- tcr [~tcr@203.82.92.92] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:21:52 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 10:23:05 there has been insufficient ELS2010 blogging 10:23:14 *hefner* agrees 10:26:04 absolutely 10:27:59 dabd [~dabd@a81-84-78-153.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 10:30:27 Guthur [~michael@host86-132-121-145.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:37:46 -!- dabd [~dabd@a81-84-78-153.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:25 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:41:19 ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.85.46.127] has joined #lisp 10:45:23 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.17] has joined #lisp 10:47:52 tcr [~tcr@118.101.119.10] has joined #lisp 10:50:03 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:50:44 ELS was too exhausting 10:50:55 the bloggers need to rest first 10:55:28 fe[nl]ix, did you reach your plane? 10:56:00 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 10:57:02 we were quite lucky, because the flights were canceled before and after 11:00:11 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 11:01:49 fe[nl]ix was trying to buy train tickets on Saturday 11:06:40 i read there was no cloud, sattelites show no danger, i wonder why they want to stop traffic and sell expensive tickets 11:07:20 oh right, money.. 11:07:34 billitch1: there is still a cloud 11:07:49 it's a problem, and there have been fatal accidents caused by this sort of thing before 11:08:09 national governments have little interest in selling expensive plane tickets 11:08:23 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:51 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1268794/Remember-ash-cloud-It-didnt-exist-says-new-evidence.html 11:10:19 rsynnott: there is good track records of government not in relation with corporations at all, sure 11:10:24 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:10:27 levente_meszaros: fe[nl]ix came home successfully 11:10:38 see, there is no danger =) 11:10:43 billitch1: the Daily Mail is an extreme right-wing paper for mad people, by mad people. It is just trying to cause trouble and shift papers 11:10:46 levente_meszaros: he's on another flight right now to malaysia 11:10:54 rsynnott: ok, i didn't know that 11:11:01 also, no-one is really benefiting from this stuff; the airlines are losing vast amounts of money 11:11:21 billitch1: it's a British tabloid; it's generally best not to take anything they say as fact 11:11:43 it will also quite happily tell you that there's no such thing as evolution or global warming :) 11:12:10 i would really like to see this global warming thing 11:12:14 because the weather just sucks 11:12:22 the spring has not really came here yet 11:12:29 arrived even 11:13:17 rsynnott: yeah, from france it looks as a quite-regular crap news machine, like all the others 11:14:11 rsynnott: evolution ? 11:14:47 hm global warming is also subject to global self-propaganda.. 11:15:04 it woud benefit some criticism 11:17:09 and thus introspection 11:17:52 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0250-168-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:58 anyway, fear is the mind killer 11:25:31 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.85.46.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:27:07 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:34:26 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:34:35 milanj [~milanj_@109.93.200.200] has joined #lisp 11:36:48 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:12 Xof [~crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:40:52 ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.85.36.4] has joined #lisp 11:42:25 billitch1: fear is also an important life-saving mechanism :) 11:46:29 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 11:48:45 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:50:53 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:55:43 luis: yes but constructive worrying, thinking and taking informed action is a much more efficient life saving mechanism in my view 11:55:48 aw [~aw@p5DDA94EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:52 and i would not call it fear 11:56:21 fear is the red light, it saves nothing 11:56:27 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:56:46 -!- cschreiner [~licoresse@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:57:50 i wonder if embedded safety programs feel fear 12:04:09 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:13 schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:10:59 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:12:15 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-233.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:12:48 plage [~user@a83-132-73-231.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 12:12:52 Good afternoon! 12:12:57 hlavaty [~user@77-22-102-139-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:13:51 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:15:27 mvilleneuve: Well, none today, unfortunately. Good that the hotel still has room for us. Plan B is to come back tomorrow on the analogous flight. Plan C, the wednesday morning flight, plan D, the wednesday afternoon night train to Hendey. 12:15:40 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:17:18 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:17:47 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:48 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:23:03 cschreiner [~licoresse@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 12:23:12 davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:50 -!- koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:27:47 koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 12:31:33 Finally a civilized place in Europe: A codfish restaurant in Lisbon with free wifi!! 12:31:46 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:31:51 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ggqkbtrodxvfvcbj] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:32:05 a restaurant dedicated to cod? 12:32:08 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 12:32:34 Not exclusively, but that's their specialty yes. It is one of the specialties of Portugal. 12:32:46 hefner_ [~hefner@ppp-61-90-82-156.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:32:52 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-82-156.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:53 -!- hefner_ is now known as hefner 12:32:59 knobo [~user@90.149.5.245] has joined #lisp 12:33:51 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 12:34:16 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:30 When I was a kid, codfish was food for poor people, and salmon was for the rich.. Now, it's the other way around. 12:36:51 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ee3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:04 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:40:13 also, eli whitney had not yet invented the interchangeable part 12:40:53 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 12:43:29 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:43:29 plage: that's no surprise. 12:44:21 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-90-66.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:44:23 About the fish? Yeah, I know how it happened. 12:44:56 how? 12:44:59 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-65-59.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:45:25 Overfishing of cod, farming salmon. 12:45:32 hehe 12:47:24 seangrov` [~user@180.64.8.254] has joined #lisp 12:47:52 Anyway, to get back to Lisp, Alexander Plotnick encouraged us to look at the pretty-printer. And he is right, it's pretty nice. The CLHS doesn't provide nearly enough documentation to understand it, but it is definitely another "brick" that could probably be implemented portably (without using many implementation-dependent features at all). 12:48:43 -!- seangrove [~user@114.205.210.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:49:29 Oh, and Kent Pitman and his wife were wandering the Lisbon airport this morning when me and mine were standing in line for the Air France ticket counter. I hope they found a flight out. 12:49:42 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ymzscbdwoqykgfyy] has joined #lisp 12:50:36 -!- seangrov` [~user@180.64.8.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:56 seangrov` [~user@180.64.8.254] has joined #lisp 12:51:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:51:16 rrice [~rrice@76.211.6.129] has joined #lisp 12:55:27 mvilleneuve: Around? 12:56:09 maden [~maden@dsl-156-89.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 12:56:22 mvilleneuve: How many subscribers do we have to the sicl-* lists (assuming you are the ones receiving the subscription messages)? 12:56:26 plage: remember when you told me that the ANSI CL committee consciously added row-major-aref so that you could implement aref portably? :P 12:56:59 luis: Mmm, well, I think I said something like "it feels to me as if they did". 12:57:17 hi plage 12:57:21 hello antifuchs 12:57:27 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:36 plage: right. Well, I asked Kent. He said he added it to the language because he needed it to implement something efficiently for maxima. :-) 12:57:40 antifuchs: We'll get out of here in time to get stuck in Paris on our way to Austria :) 12:57:58 awesome (: 12:59:23 luis: Sounds plausible. 13:00:47 plage: are you still in Lisbon? 13:00:52 luis: Kent was also surprised when I told him about the common (?) implementation of find* on lists, i.e., do it from the beginning and keep the last candidate. 13:01:01 (when :from-end is t) 13:01:11 luis: Yes, flight canceled. 13:01:16 plage: that is surprising indeed. 13:01:31 plage: I just checked, so far nobody subscribed 13:01:37 mvilleneuve: I did! 13:01:45 plage: darn. Well, let me know if you need help with anything. 13:02:14 luis: Thanks. A day or two of "forced" vacation will help me put my own importance in perspective. 13:02:26 plage: ah, I thought you had been automatically added by the cl.net admins - I didn't receive any notification 13:02:37 mvilleneuve: Oh, that's possible. 13:03:04 mvilleneuve: I guess it might be worth going to the config page of the mailing lists. Perhaps notifications are turned off by default. 13:03:09 plage: anyway definitely try out those Pastéis de Belém. 13:03:54 luis: Tempting, but we might be insufficiently mobile at the moment. The trip to Sintra nearly killed me. 13:04:50 luis: The guide, although short and somewhat plump, was running up and down those hills like a mountain goat, unlike flatlanders like me. 13:09:30 Aerobic exercise is good the brain! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK1nMQq67VI 13:09:41 plage: you're right, they were turned off 13:09:44 antifuchs: Did you know that LSM/RMLL is again in Bordeaux this year. The first year we had 100 participants, then 200, then 400. Last year in Mont-de-Marsan there were 3000 participants. I am not organizing a track though. 13:10:05 Reav0 [~Reav0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 13:10:10 mvilleneuve: Ah. So who is on at the moment? 13:10:27 wow (: 13:11:12 Yeah, it is totally incredible! 13:11:28 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has joined #lisp 13:11:31 I mean, ELS was like 40. 13:11:42 plage: so far it's only you and me 13:11:49 mvilleneuve: OK. 13:12:08 mvilleneuve: I'll wait until people get around to signing up to blabber some more. 13:12:19 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-90-66.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:12:47 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 13:13:03 [who needs company for lunch when #lisp is available?] 13:13:14 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ymzscbdwoqykgfyy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:13:51 The main problem with having lunch or dinner alone in a restaurant is that one has a tendency to eat and drink too fast. Thanks to #lisp, that problem is taken care of. 13:14:13 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bepfhzflopnsiwwm] has left #lisp 13:15:57 mvilleneuve: Did you put a clone of the GIT repository on cl.net yet? 13:16:21 -!- aw [~aw@p5DDA94EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 13:17:16 mvilleneuve: We should encourange idurand, DamienCassou, and Aymerick Vincent to get cl.net accounts, and then make them members of this project so that they can contribute. 13:17:25 plage: you're IRC-ing from a restaurant? :) 13:17:26 mvilleneuve: The others, I am not so sure about. 13:17:29 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.85.36.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:17:30 rsynnott: You bet! 13:17:42 Laurentina. 13:18:08 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:25 Av Conde Valbom no 71 A, Lisboa 13:19:35 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-wacegwyaqreapxhq] has joined #lisp 13:21:32 gugamilare [~kvirc@200-207-40-188.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:25:41 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:26:21 Does anyone know how to get GIT commit messages to appear on the -cvs mailing list of cl.net? 13:27:00 Reav0_ [~Reav0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:27:19 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:27:45 -!- Reav0 [~Reav0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:28:08 plage: add a post-commit email service hook to the repository on github (if you're using github) 13:28:35 carlocci [~nes@93.37.207.137] has joined #lisp 13:28:49 andreer: not github, cl.net. 13:28:55 andreer: But thanks for the hint. 13:29:29 plage: I only did a quick try, but I couldn't clone your repository from cl.net ("error: git was compiled without libcurl support") 13:29:30 andreer: I guess they would appear after a push, but perhaps a message per commit. 13:29:33 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:30:20 mvilleneuve: I wonder if one could just cp -r an existing repository without relying on the particular git version on cl.net. 13:30:56 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:31:12 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:13 mvilleneuve: Or perhaps the admins of cl.net know what that message indicates they should do. 13:31:36 mvilleneuve: make that "scp -r". 13:31:39 davazp [~user@64.Red-79-157-94.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:40 plage: I could probably scp my local clone to cl.net, but wouldn't cl.net's GIT be confused by that? (I don't know much about GIT) 13:32:16 mvilleneuve: I don't think that would cause a problem. But it is better to scp mine, because it is "bare". 13:32:28 OK 13:32:37 mvilleneuve: Or a "bare" copy that you made of it of course. 13:33:02 ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.84.237.229] has joined #lisp 13:35:07 -!- Reav0_ [~Reav0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:36:02 Reav0_ [~Reav0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:36:59 you could also initialize a bare repo on the cl.net side, add a remote on your side and push to that 13:37:41 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:19 Gee, the staff at this really good! 13:38:25 Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:38:31 at this *restaurant 13:38:38 *is 13:39:30 antifuchs: Don't you think initializing a bare repo on cl.net was what mvilleneuve was trying to do? 13:40:01 antifuchs: Oh, I see, "initialize" as in an empty one. 13:41:11 ... free Eau de Vie at this restaurant. They are either trying to kill me or make me come back. 13:42:09 Maybe both. You can come back as a ghost. 13:42:21 ah, stuck in Portugal. What a hardship 13:42:34 Terrible! :) 13:43:00 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-156-89.aei.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:43:18 Xach: can ghosts drink Eau de Vie? 13:43:21 asarch [~asarch@187.132.90.29] has joined #lisp 13:43:21 hello! Has anyone used CLORB? I can't find any manual, tutorial :/ 13:44:34 mvilleneuve: we'll see 13:44:35 antifuchs: Do you see a problem with "scp -r"-ing an existing one? 13:46:13 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:46:33 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 13:49:43 -!- plage [~user@a83-132-73-231.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:50:02 -!- Appl6 [~steven@c-98-230-53-146.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:51:41 ah, whoops (: 13:51:58 nope, scp -r should be fine 13:52:02 aack [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:53:10 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:14 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:54:16 Appl61 [~steven@c-98-230-53-146.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:19 -!- Appl61 [~steven@c-98-230-53-146.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56:20 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:19 freddie111 [~user@150.140.167.234] has joined #lisp 14:03:09 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-52-181.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:23 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-35-82-250-200-131.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:12:13 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:12:35 Athas` [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 14:12:59 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:13:22 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 14:13:35 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15:24 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@eap111083.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:17:16 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:17:31 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:19:13 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:19:16 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-168-128-117.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:19:40 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 14:21:30 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:23:39 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:24:08 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:36 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-16-26.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 14:26:45 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ravimwlabrxwxext] has joined #lisp 14:27:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:32:15 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 14:33:26 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 14:38:52 *Fare* once again forgot to logout during the weekend. 14:39:56 -!- abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:40:57 *Fare* added cffi support to xcvb (my TMBABW). 14:41:15 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 14:41:16 now trying to compile iolib, and sprinkling it with eval-when's . 14:43:15 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 14:45:23 -!- tcr [~tcr@118.101.119.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:45:41 What is the right way to avoid this warning from SBCL when using gray streams from IOLib? Generic function CLOSE clobbers an earlier FTYPE proclamation 14:45:44 G'morning all. 14:45:49 bytecolor: You pinged? 14:47:03 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:49:24 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:51:54 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:52:51 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 14:53:40 Fare: consult with fe[nl]ix! he has a branch of iolib, doing some extensive refactoring 14:53:53 although i'm not sure how extensive that is 14:54:01 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:54:17 btw, you still prefer eval-when's to splitting files? 14:54:21 I wanted IOlib so I could use it myself in XCVB. 14:54:39 attila_lendvai, eval-when's are necessary if you use cfasl's. 14:55:00 Fare: you can have file-early and :compile-depends-on, no? 14:55:19 file splitting requires extensive changes both in the files and in the system definitions. 14:55:23 although i have no experience... it may become arbitrary and messy 14:55:55 maybe we should have (defmacro defun! ... (eval-when ...)) 14:56:29 attila_lendvai, do you have ideas for nicely layering better namespace management on top of CL? 14:56:35 -!- davazp [~user@64.Red-79-157-94.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:13 have you tried lexicons? 14:57:29 maybe I should patch SBCL to port lexicons to it. 14:57:29 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 14:58:38 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:58:39 Fare: we're working on that automated partial-eval based vm generation in our (non-existent) free-time. we gave up on cl packages and just use what they provide... 14:59:07 wedgeV [~wedge@178-191-11-16.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:59:13 although scheme has something interesting... the way they "instantiate" modules is very interesting 14:59:23 no experience with lexicons 14:59:52 I looked at the PLT scheme module setup once and it looked really over-complicated 15:01:04 nurv [nurv@83.231.94.33] has joined #lisp 15:01:10 it should be trivial to load two revisions of a library into the same vm. with cl it's pretty much hopeless... not to mention loading with different optimizations, like loading a lib without continuation support... 15:02:07 dlowe: they do everything, and were implemented in many times by many people, hence the surface complexity and awkward API. But conceptually, they do the right thing. 15:02:17 a lib to fix this in CL would be useful... not sure if lexicons does that 15:02:24 Hi. 15:02:50 lexicons are first class, so you could probably do it with lexicons, though the setup might be painful. 15:03:04 attila_lendvai: what? dwim.hu doesn't include a module implementation yet? :-) 15:03:16 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 15:03:41 molicles could be a good start of modules, if we're to use the unchanged reader. 15:03:54 if we're to change the reader, etc. -- then it's a CL on top of CL. 15:04:17 I was wondering whether it's more practical to use CL or PLT as a platform to reimplement a better CL. 15:04:46 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:05:03 CL, of course 15:05:21 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 15:05:38 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:58 sykopomp|jeejah` [~sykopomp@mac0736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:37 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:13:57 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:51 -!- sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:16:14 -!- sykopomp|jeejah` [~sykopomp@mac0736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:17:43 Davse_Bamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has joined #lisp 15:18:39 Hi i have a question regarding macros. I have made a macro which I can expand correctly using (macroexpand-1) but seem to fail whenever i want to use it in my code. Code listing is here: http://pastebin.org/217970 15:18:39 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:19:29 Davse_Bamse: macro expansion only happens where a function might be applied 15:19:36 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.84.237.229] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:20:01 Davse_Bamse: try making a macro that replaces the whole cond form instead 15:20:31 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:21:01 dlowe: ok i will try that :-) 15:21:51 Davse_Bamse: actually, that's total overkill for what you're doing. The whole thing can be replaced with (eql p1 (second (assoc p2 '((a t) (t a) (g c) (c g))))) 15:22:23 common lisp could benefit a lot from calling it CL94 15:22:53 this would imply that there would be a CL1x at some point 15:23:10 and all kinds of version checks will fail (-: 15:23:23 can't use #'STRING< to test for newer-ness (-; 15:23:55 better to skip the microsoft approach and go for straight version numbers (: 15:23:59 -!- synthasee [~synthase@adsl-230-35-10.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:24:20 MACLISP 4.0 15:24:21 synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-178-72.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:21 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-40-173.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 15:25:03 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:28 there you go, problem solved 15:26:02 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:26:09 Davse_Bamse: http://pastebin.org/217998 15:26:40 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@178-191-11-16.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 15:26:58 whoa thanks dlowe 15:27:51 Davse_Bamse: always look to see what tools are already there before trying to hack a macro up :) 15:28:38 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:58 Davse_Bamse: oh, yeah, and I totally messed up the paren matching :p http://pastebin.org/218006 15:29:27 dlowe: true ;-) i need to read more about the built in functions 15:30:15 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:45 also look at CASE 15:31:41 yeah, CASE would have been a good fit, too 15:31:59 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 15:32:09 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:32:38 *stassats* had a hard time understanding what the number one was doing at the end of the body 15:32:45 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ravimwlabrxwxext] has left #lisp 15:34:08 quotemstr_ [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:10 also the old-school approach 15:34:12 (setf (get 't 'mirror) 'a) 15:34:25 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 15:34:30 (get 't 'mirror) -> A 15:35:45 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:45 -!- quotemstr_ is now known as quotemstr 15:35:56 too old-school for me 15:37:16 sanotto_ [~sanotto@190.30.236.34] has joined #lisp 15:37:42 For the really old-school, you have to do that without macros. 15:37:49 (Which is to say, without SETF.) 15:39:08 *nyef* has just recently (within the past five minutes) come to the conclusion that he wants two-dimensional vectors. 15:39:37 we call them arrays 15:39:44 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-68-244.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:39:50 Sure, but with one of the dimensions set to 1. 15:40:10 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 15:40:13 That way, there's a difference between row vectors and column vectors. 15:41:03 version numbers? how contrived. label them by universal time. 15:41:54 -!- sanotto_ [~sanotto@190.30.236.34] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:42:23 Then what happens when 1900 rolls around again? 15:42:51 Joreji [~thomas@82-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:43:59 for some languages simple integers are not enough 15:44:08 we'll have 84 years where we don't have to worry about it until CL is invented again? 15:44:47 RSRS7/1 abd RSR7/2 15:44:48 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:44:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:44:54 (... will there be some web sites reporting year 19200 in another 90 years?) 15:45:22 aw [~aw@89.204.153.68] has joined #lisp 15:46:01 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:08 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 15:49:48 -!- aw [~aw@89.204.153.68] has quit [Client Quit] 15:55:28 -!- freddie111 [~user@150.140.167.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:59 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:59:14 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:01:14 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:02:49 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-wacegwyaqreapxhq] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:02:49 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:03:14 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:04:44 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:06:24 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-40-173.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:16 so call it CL1994 16:08:22 -!- schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:08:26 although - was any work done between 1991 and 1994? 16:12:00 housel [~user@ip70-187-191-250.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:23 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:13:02 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:13:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 16:13:15 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-40-173.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 16:14:04 curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:41 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Quit: Where satan goes, I follow. But only for the free T-shirts.] 16:17:42 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-36-15.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 16:19:34 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:20:12 -!- housel [~user@ip70-187-191-250.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:49 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 16:21:43 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 16:22:23 vapored_ [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:22:47 sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@border.pozitronic.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:56 sykopomp|jeejah` [~sykopomp@mad0736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:19 AndChat- [~sykopomp@border.pozitronic.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:23 -!- sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@border.pozitronic.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:28:01 -!- lispm [~joswig@e177127104.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:29:00 schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:30:15 -!- sykopomp|jeejah` [~sykopomp@mad0736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:27 pixpop [~pixpop@76.208.132.217] has joined #lisp 16:32:20 -!- vapored_ is now known as CrazyEddy 16:32:26 -!- pixpop [~pixpop@76.208.132.217] has quit [Client Quit] 16:32:27 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32:29 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-17-206-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:03 -!- AndChat- [~sykopomp@border.pozitronic.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:14 lispm [~joswig@e177123254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:34:28 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:35:02 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:35:17 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:35:45 bizarref1sh [~lee@host86-146-52-27.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:00 sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@border.pozitronic.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:44 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:37:48 if it's not going to be called CL94 or anything like that you will have nothing to worry about after 100 years 16:38:15 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: quotemstr] 16:38:44 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:38:52 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:52 it's going to be plain dead 16:40:22 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:40:22 -!- ski [~slj@c-0712e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:40:22 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-146-52-27.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 16:40:32 Arc-2008? 16:40:43 s/2008/08/ 16:42:14 stassats: Have you tried Arc 16:42:42 t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B2023DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:42:54 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-163-5.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: G'bye] 16:43:09 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-163-5.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:16 yeah, the verdict is "guilty" 16:43:30 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:46 ski [~slj@c-0712e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:44:29 How does it stack up? 16:44:41 Would you use it 16:44:47 alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 I'd like to have a CL11 or alike instead 16:45:22 i only read its description, that was enough to reject any further investigations 16:45:42 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-82-156.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:44 levente_meszaros: Is there any feature you would really like to see in CL11 16:46:13 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-82-156.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 16:47:16 ah, see, that's what happens if I don't constantly babysit the signal strength and move / hold / violently shake the computer when it inexplicably drops out. stupid macbook. 16:47:28 there are quite a few, but you can't make me name a single one 16:48:06 at least not here 16:48:15 levente_meszaros: Certainly I can't make you do anything, hehe 16:49:20 Are you afraid they will deride your suggestions? You certainly couldn't monetise them that's for sure. 16:50:29 bazz_ [~3ce473d7@gateway/web/freenode/x-nvxmhqpqhorybzvh] has joined #lisp 16:50:47 I don't fear, but don't really care either 16:51:10 the lucky bit about CL is that you can always change it 16:51:11 powerje [~powerje@dhcp-128-146-43-157.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 16:51:32 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-xynctrwrxpwpeayc] has joined #lisp 16:51:51 but it doesn't mean that it can not be improved 16:51:58 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:52:00 Well I hope someone replaces the package system soon 16:52:09 hi, I'd like to ask a quick question regarding a particular performance difference between sbcl and python 16:52:24 Guthur, you just named one :-) be careful 16:52:50 bazz_: Since the compiler used in SBCL is -called- "Python", it seems odd to attempt to find such a difference. 16:53:57 between SBCL interpreter and Python, the compiler? 16:54:05 sykopomp|jeejah` [~sykopomp@ma80736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:10 *nyef* winces. 16:54:29 The interpreter might be a win for one-offs, but... 16:54:31 I didn't know it was called that :-) 16:55:14 -!- sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@border.pozitronic.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:55:27 I mean, I'm getting a performance difference between running a particular type of program in sbcl vs python-the-programming-language 16:55:29 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 16:55:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:56:02 bazz_, I'm pretty much sure that was clear from the beginning 16:56:04 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Quit: alinp] 16:56:08 well, where is your question already? 16:56:42 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 16:56:46 context is genetic programming, the simplified test case program I wrote involves generating a "program" consisting of numbers and the usual mathematical operations (+, -, *, protected div) 16:56:53 and then executing the program 16:57:04 for example, (* (+ 1 4) 2) 16:57:24 that's where an interpreter might be faster 16:57:34 I'm getting better performance for the Python version, so my hunch is that I'm doing something wrong with sbcl 16:57:46 did you profile? 16:58:10 (you're going to hate me for this) not yet 16:58:30 aw [~aw@141.76.6.61] has joined #lisp 16:58:33 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:41 bazz_: My hunch is also that you're maybe, at the moment, better at writing fast code in python than in sbcl :) 16:58:53 I think I may be doing something wrong with my data structure in lisp, and that was what I wanted to ask about 16:59:30 ask your questions directly, no need to prepare us for them 16:59:31 firstly, is it okay to simply generate a tree structure in lisp, consisting of the numbers and the symbols for the math operators, and then simply running "eval" on it? 16:59:39 doing lots of list access where arrays could be used maybe? 16:59:40 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:00:20 ... You'd probably be better off with a custom evaluation routine, that'd shave off a pile of overhead. 17:00:35 bazz_: it is ok, but in SBCL it will be compiled and only then executed 17:00:52 stassats: Depends on *evaluator-mode* these days. 17:01:31 pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-132-217.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:47 -!- pixpop [~pixpop@adsl-76-208-132-217.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01:50 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:04:52 Jini [~pidgin@212.106.60.104] has joined #lisp 17:06:21 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:08:52 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:14 I suppose the data structure itself is okay for now, I'll look into *evaluator-mode* / writing own evaluation routine 17:09:18 thanks for the tip 17:09:31 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:10:18 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 17:10:22 It possible you could maybe take advantage of first class functions an apply 17:10:26 Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:10:41 an/and 17:10:54 *schme* hands bazz_ some Lisp In Small Pieces. 17:11:19 apply/funcall, umm silly me 17:11:22 sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@border.pozitronic.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:49 schme: I was thinking of getting that book today 17:12:20 There seems to be a newer edition of it only available in french too :) 17:12:38 thanks for the book idea, I've seen it recommended quite a lot; atm I'm using practical common lisp, amongst other things 17:12:50 Guthur: I highly enjoy that book. I think, with your asm project there, that you'd like it too. 17:13:11 Xach: bruno doesn't have a brother named manuel, does he? 17:13:14 bazz_: It's a book on writing eval functions and lisp compilers pretty much :) 17:13:32 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.17] has joined #lisp 17:13:47 froydnj: brucio has four brothers! 17:13:48 schme: Yep, I was kind of thinking it would help in that regard 17:14:28 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:14:29 -!- sykopomp|jeejah` [~sykopomp@ma80736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:14:58 Xach: this new knowledge frightens me 17:15:12 mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:15:14 Guthur: Perhaps ya :) 17:16:13 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f7358b4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:26 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.17] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:40 -!- lispm [~joswig@e177123254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:16 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.17] has joined #lisp 17:17:22 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.17] has left #lisp 17:18:04 -!- powerje [~powerje@dhcp-128-146-43-157.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Quit: powerje] 17:18:04 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 17:18:16 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.17] has joined #lisp 17:18:22 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 17:18:59 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:00 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.17] has left #lisp 17:19:27 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.17] has joined #lisp 17:20:19 smanek [~smanek@2002:18d5:a488:0:226:bbff:fe03:f491] has joined #lisp 17:20:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21:54 marioxcc [~user@200.92.167.131] has joined #lisp 17:23:38 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:15 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:24:22 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:24:22 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jtjhxcjvlefpqyai] has joined #lisp 17:29:50 -!- Reav0_ [~Reav0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~] 17:32:16 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:34:15 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109.93.200.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:34:45 -!- konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:34:50 -!- schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:38:37 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:53 milanj [~milanj_@93.86.244.72] has joined #lisp 17:40:40 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:42:52 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ee3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:09 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-171-229.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:45:03 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-163-219.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 17:49:00 Someone just sent us warnings from CLISP compilation of a library that gave a *deprecation* warning for GENTEMP. 17:49:05 Do they really do that??? 17:49:54 rpg: clisp: preparing you for CL202x 17:50:08 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-86-145.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:11 clisp, preparing you for CLtL1... 17:50:49 Thank you very much, Mr. CLISP, I knew what I was effing doing when I used GENTEMP. If I wanted an uninterned symbol, I would have asked for one. 17:51:32 Seriously, how can they deprecate a part of the standard? 17:51:48 metasyntax [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:02 rpg: The standard deprecates it. 17:52:45 Xach: it *does*? weird. 17:52:54 rpg: see the Notes 17:52:57 Am I supposed to use INTERN? 17:53:31 rpg: what's the use case? 17:53:36 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:53:48 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0250-168-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:53:53 Xach: anonymous-like class definitions. 17:54:04 Xach: But we don't want to make undebuggable code. 17:54:16 well I'll be damned. You're right. 17:54:50 (notes not easily accessible from lispworks hyperspec...) 17:55:05 rpg: Really? I read them by scrolling down. 17:55:33 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:56:22 Xach: Sorry, I meant "discussion," not notes. 17:56:29 I was looking for the rationale for deprecation. 17:56:39 -!- aw [~aw@141.76.6.61] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3-dev] 17:57:12 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 17:57:21 Gentemp bad idea: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss183_w.htm 17:57:37 you can safely ignore any deprecations, if you know what you're doing 17:57:38 -!- md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:25 stassats: you mean in CLISP? 17:58:34 in CLHS 17:58:47 stassats: I don't really need another implementation... 17:59:15 stassats: Right. The dangers of GENTEMP seem understandable. Removing it seems .... schemeish... 17:59:28 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:59:41 it's a warning, you can ignore it as well 18:00:08 rpg: has some kmp cll discussion from 2001 18:00:15 though it'd better be a style-warning 18:00:22 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93.86.244.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:00:26 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-17-206-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:00:27 stassats: yup. I've never found muffle-warnings easy to use, though --- because of non-standard warning classes, I am always afraid of throwing baby out with bathwater. 18:00:41 style-warning is standard 18:00:41 I don't necessarily want to throw away /all/ style warnings... 18:01:34 rpg: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/c63469d9f58a1511 has the text of the article 18:02:46 "Benefits: Language is one page shorter." :) 18:03:27 -!- bazz_ [~3ce473d7@gateway/web/freenode/x-nvxmhqpqhorybzvh] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:04:53 milanj [~milanj_@93.87.193.161] has joined #lisp 18:05:13 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:20 astalla [~astalla@93-36-229-127.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:05:53 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:48 hefner: drawback: :depends-on is one line longer everywhere ;-) 18:06:51 -!- dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:07:01 HG` [~HG@xdsleb039.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:08:50 ah! I see --- people were using GENTEMP to define new special variables, wanting them interned so that references to them could be scattered around... 18:09:44 OK, I can see that might be bad. 18:09:51 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:10:11 dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 18:10:28 The CLISP folks are right; I'm wrong. 18:10:32 *Xach* is digging his personal kmp search engine, must finish it off for public consumption 18:10:35 -!- dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:35 -!- cschreiner [~licoresse@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: cschreiner] 18:10:54 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:10:59 *rpg* is not giving up his GENTEMP until it's pried from his cold dead hands... 18:11:27 lobby Clisp devs so that they make it a style-warning 18:13:38 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:42 md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 18:13:45 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:14:25 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:15:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:15:34 GENTEMP really is pretty bizarre. 18:16:18 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:17:58 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:23:41 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082E49F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:03 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082F8CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:25 Joreji [~thomas@86-084.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:31:49 hefner: seems to me that in general in the 'bad old days' there was a lot less worry about expressing your problem in terms the garbage collector could understand 18:32:42 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:34:04 latency got more important than speed, I think 18:34:23 mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:34:34 and long-running server processes vs run-and-exit calculators 18:35:15 herring [~herring@host86-174-78-19.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:08 hefner: I would have thought the opposite of what kpreid said. In the old days there were more things like lisp machines, and keeping your session alive would matter /more/. 18:36:32 It's in the days of general purpose machines you see people killing their lisp sessions and restarting more, I would say. 18:37:48 Talking with juanjo about ECL, there's no real sense there of long-running images. 18:38:31 I wonder how much of that is because now machines are faster, so it takes less time to recompile/reload, and we have enough ram that running a dozen separate lisp sessions simultaneously is no problem 18:40:34 rpg: How long is long? I've run it for upward of maybe a few days doing light hacking with SLIME attached, although very often I do use it more like a C compiler, in an edit/compile/crash cycle. 18:40:42 -!- herring [~herring@host86-174-78-19.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 18:41:06 hefner: I would say "long" is "like emacs long". In the old days could be weeks. 18:42:07 that's more how I use SBCL, then. 18:42:08 herring [~herring@86.174.78.19] has joined #lisp 18:42:54 hefner: I tend now to crash my lisp sessions after only days, but that's mostly because I work on different projects, and those different projects can't share an image. 18:43:18 Also sometimes the projects have data models with global state that cannot be maintained well. 18:43:55 -!- herring [~herring@86.174.78.19] has left #lisp 18:44:31 we've had deployed sbcl running for months at a time with no issue, thankfully 18:45:34 ccl only days so far, but seems solid as well, with no non-user memleaks nor change in responsiveness 18:46:50 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:48:35 -!- asarch [~asarch@187.132.90.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:48:43 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:49:08 lisppaste: url 18:51:45 I'm continually impressed by (x86-oid Linux) SBCL's stability, at least so long as you don't fill the heap up. 18:51:49 Guthur: It's in the topic. 18:52:14 nyef: Ya I was being lazy 18:52:39 Guthur: If you paste, but get a blank page instead of the acknowledgement, it means that the bot wasn't online, but the paste should be findable on the list. 18:53:00 Actually /topic is less typing as well 18:53:02 I'll cycle the lisppastes in a bit. 18:53:15 (Since lisppaste obviously -isn't- online.) 18:53:36 Oh ya, I got it in the end, it wasn't for this channel though, hehe 18:54:21 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:54:43 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:58 hi, is there a standard/sane way to strip the package name (i.e., "foo::") off of a symbol? my current method makes me weep: http://paste.lisp.org/display/99044 18:55:19 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 18:56:43 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:47 eqn: 1. indent better. 2. What do you mean "strip the package name"? All symbols live in some package, except uninterned symbols 18:57:40 egn: are you sure you don't want the SYMBOL-NAME function? 18:57:45 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:16 rtoym: isn't that proper indenting? when I'm in-package:foo and I ask for cl-user:*bar* I don't want 'cl-user:bar... not sure how to phrase that 18:58:20 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:44 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:58:50 hefner: hm, wouldn't I still have to intern it? 18:59:09 eqn: Oh, maybe line wrapping is messed up. 18:59:10 hefner: that could make this a bit cleaner though 18:59:11 egn: well, it sounds like you are doing something insane. 18:59:20 hefner: most likely 19:00:09 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:17 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:38 egn: in what context do you want that different appearance? what do you mean by "ask for"? 19:00:54 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-233.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:57 hefner: well, I'm defining a variable in cl-user (with a symbol as it's value) and reading that in-package :foo 19:01:34 bigjohnto [~bigjohnto@S01060018396f59b3.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:19 egn: you use a keyword as the symbol, instead of a symbol from cl-user 19:02:48 Xach: in-package :foo I have a list of symbols '(foo bar) and I need to iterate over them to find one which would match cl-user:*find-me*... not sure if that's what you're asking 19:02:53 when creating a menu, I am specifying type: real:, but when i type in a value with 2 decimal places, it keeps rounding the value to either one decimal or no decimal places, how can I force it not to do that? ie specify number of decimal places to keep 19:03:08 hefner: that might work, thanks 19:03:15 bigjohnto: what's "it"? 19:03:31 a menu parameter 19:03:46 bigjohnto: no, when you write "it keeps rounding". 19:03:51 oh, I see. 19:04:00 Xach, 6005402.23 19:04:01 bigjohnto: What I'm wondering is what environment you're using. 19:04:19 bigjohnto: It doesn't sound like the Lisp systems I'm immediately familiar with. 19:04:40 Xach, yea I was looking at the developer guide for this system and it claims it uses common lisp 19:04:46 egn: if you want to see if two symbols have the same name, regardless of package, you can use string=, also. 19:04:55 egn: string-equal will do it without regard to case. 19:04:58 brucio will be interviewed by gigamonkey for a sequel to coders at work 19:05:07 what i was thinking is if I need to include a type_desc or something 19:05:16 bigjohnto: What is the system called? 19:05:22 ProMAX 19:05:25 Xach: excellent, thank you 19:05:43 but on a Sun Solaris Sparc Platform 19:05:53 Oracle* 19:07:10 moocow [~new@69.67.174.130] has joined #lisp 19:07:48 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:03 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:08:06 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:08:10 bigjohnto: I'd like to help, but it sounds more like it's an issue with that environment than Common Lisp. 19:08:14 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 19:08:18 bigjohnto: Good luck with it. 19:08:19 nyef: :D 19:08:19 rescreen 19:08:27 misdirect. 19:08:55 mstevens [~mstevens@cl-807.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:59 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@cl-807.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:08:59 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:09:14 bigjohnto, you might want to contact the customer service of promax. 19:09:15 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-24-163-219.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:09:40 bigjohnto: that sounds very Autodesk-ish 19:09:41 but note that there are two separate issues: how the software represents data internally, and how it prints it. 19:10:04 the most important thing for correct results is the former - the second while nice is secondary 19:10:06 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:11:20 Fare, Tsuru, yea thats what i thought 19:12:03 I think they are just frocking around with the output to be honest... as less than 6digits are not rounded anything above is... seems like programming issue. 19:13:27 -!- gugamilare [~kvirc@200-207-40-188.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3900, sources date: 20100125, built on: 2010-02-15 08:38:32 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:13:49 ... I thought "frocking" was a -noun-? 19:15:28 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:15:31 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:18:30 nyeh, heh 19:18:44 anyways thanks for all the help. Ciao 19:18:50 -!- bigjohnto [~bigjohnto@S01060018396f59b3.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [] 19:19:28 *hefner* is disappointed by the results of `find ~/cl -iname \*.lisp |xargs grep -i defrock` 19:20:33 (defrock igneous ...) ? 19:21:26 if only Dwarf Fortress were written in Lisp. 19:22:33 Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-6-34.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:23:02 hefner: Feel free to write your own example of the genre. :-P 19:24:17 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-68-244.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:24:39 ooh. on a hex grid, and teeming with style, refinement, and a complete lack of playtesting. 19:27:29 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:28:18 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:29:07 *hefner* supposes he should build a mac version of Laser Spigot, which might motivate him to finally cobble together a version of SDL that actually works right on this platform, and figure out how to build bundles and such 19:29:43 aw [~aw@p5DDA94EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:19 defrock, defpaper, defscissors 19:31:46 hefner: hopefully dto, successful game deliverer, can help 19:33:22 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:39 *hefner* fears the SDL developers are veering off into the weeds with version 1.3, with silliness like multiple window support 19:37:26 Multiple window support? I can -almost- see it, but not necessarily for gaming... 19:37:58 Anyway, my game-related screenshot for today: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/game-stuff/status-window.png 19:38:41 oh, cool. funny thing, I was trying to get Dungeon Master going in an emulator last night, but it didn't like my disk image (I guess). 19:39:16 I think the really cool part about this image is that the text-widgets are fundamental-character-output-streams. 19:40:05 bard's tale 5: the pentagoning 19:41:36 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-40-173.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:41:45 is CL-SDL ok? 19:42:06 I've never been tempted to use a real stream interface for text output. So far I've always been happy stripping it down to a cursor (sometimes as an abstraction, occasionally just coded directly) which remembers its x/y and left margin and can have strings or images thrown at it for display, and can be told to advance to the next line. 19:42:06 nurv: Not really, it probably shouldn't be used. 19:42:21 nyef: is there any good alternative? 19:42:30 nurv: lispbuilder-sdl, maybe? 19:42:33 hefner: I wanted FORMAT. 19:42:50 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jtjhxcjvlefpqyai] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:42:57 It was also simple to implement, inherit from one class, define one method. 19:43:26 stream-write-char? I'm sure that performs wonderfully. :) 19:43:39 nyef: looks good 19:44:08 It performs well enough for now, and if I care later I can implement some of the other functions. 19:44:11 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:44:12 nyef: regarding multiple windows.. I agree. Games and graphic hacks don't need it, and most things more complicated should be using a real GUI toolkit. 19:44:54 hefner: I suspect that there's a small market for "real GUI toolkit"s written using SDL. :-/ 19:45:20 no doubt, but there's an incredible amount of brain damage in that ecosystem. 19:46:07 <_3b> can you do multiple displays portably with only 1 window? 19:46:08 Of course there is. -All- of the software ecosystems are polluted. 19:46:10 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:46:45 Anything else just doesn't have enough diversity to be useful. 19:47:07 _3b: dunno. how portably can you do multiple displays at all? 19:47:18 (That's a bit of an exaggeration, but still...) 19:48:03 <_3b> hefner: true, might be hard to tell when you need to open the extra windows portably 19:49:51 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.207.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:50:53 *hefner* doesn't believe in portability anyway, only started using SDL in the first place because he was scared of X11 19:51:43 <_3b> yeah, there is a lot of knowledge about wierd drivers/hardware and edge cases in the APIs hidden in things like SDL that would be hard to duplicate by hand :/ 19:53:30 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:54:07 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:54:18 carlocci [~nes@93.37.207.137] has joined #lisp 19:54:52 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:56 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 19:57:07 maden [~maden@dsl-151-58.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 19:57:13 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:59:38 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 20:00:14 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:00:23 nyef: is this dungeon game using your rumored clim-influenced system? 20:00:28 -!- moocow [~new@69.67.174.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02:08 nyef: I had a question about xlib (how to use WM_DELETE_WINDOW) but I figured it out ;) 20:02:35 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.17] has joined #lisp 20:03:10 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:04:03 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 20:08:12 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 20:08:20 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-248-235-40.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:52 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:08 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:10:32 gonzojive [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:10:47 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsleb039.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:10:56 off topic: do you know how can I disassemble to x86 instructions an executable compiled with llvm-as/llvm-ld? 20:11:00 what is the status of threading for SBCL on OS X? 20:11:01 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:11:09 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:12:07 hefner: No, it's not using nq-clim. 20:12:12 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:12:24 levente_meszaros: depends on your OS. For linux, use: objdump -d. 20:12:42 levente_meszaros: (same as if you compiled your program any other way.) 20:13:01 Though it wouldn't entirely surprise me if it evolves in such a way as to combine with nq-clim. 20:13:02 foom, it's linux but objdump says: File format not recognized 20:13:14 even though it runs fine 20:13:32 what does "file" say it is? 20:13:36 I think it's not an ELF binary, because it's just 73 bytes 20:13:53 And, at the same time, it's also using a clim-like space-requirements object for communicating the desired size for the toplevel window. 20:14:01 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:14:20 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 20:14:32 foom, oops, now I know why 20:14:35 levente_meszaros: are you sure you linked it properly at the end? 20:14:39 llvm cheats 20:14:50 p_l, I'm sure I didn't 20:15:53 ooh, while we're off topic, maybe I'll start peppering the channel with random CSS and jQuery UI questions. 20:15:55 Nitrodist [~Zoey@wnpgmb023yw-ad04-31-87.dynamic.mts.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:10 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:19 foom, now that I do llvm-ld -native, objdump does what I expected 20:19:53 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 20:20:03 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has left #lisp 20:23:23 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.115.17] has left #lisp 20:24:01 hefner: did you evaluate alternatives to jQuery UI? 20:24:32 luis: not seriously, no. what else should I look at? 20:24:35 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.16.52.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:25:51 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:15 hefner: I've heard about YUI, Dojo and Ext JS. I was hoping you had tried them out and decided for me which one was best. I've been avoiding doing such analysis for ages. 20:26:32 -!- xan_ [~xan@87.223.138.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:27:02 hefner, in fact it's not that off topic: it is a CL interpreter of an extended lambda calculus written on top of an llvm interpreter 20:27:17 programs are compiled to llvm using a CL partial evaluator 20:27:32 xan_ [~xan@87.223.138.122] has joined #lisp 20:27:48 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:27:53 luis: I probably shouldn't use any of them, it's unnerving not understanding what's going on under the hood, and previously when I've played with dynamic html stuff it wasn't really that hard except that my attempts only ever worked on the browser I wrote them with :) 20:30:03 levente_meszaros: is that insane stuff about doing partial evaluation on EVAL? :) 20:30:06 you should look at ukijs. it seems to be nice. haven't used it myself, though 20:30:41 luis, yes it is ;-) 20:31:33 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 20:32:17 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:23 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-200-138.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:28 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:36:14 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:36:45 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 20:37:52 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:02 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:24 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:41:29 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:42:45 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:43:50 Something more mundane: What is the value of (expt 2 #c(-2d0 -1d0))? Or rather, what should the value be? 20:44:24 luis: I don't have time to stick around, but I used YUI for a while, and would suggest avoiding it. 20:44:34 Relies unpleasantly on a global namespace of objects. 20:44:48 rtoym: Is this the difference between that and when you pass 2d0 20:45:13 Guthur: Yes. For those lisps where the values are different. 20:45:30 It was raised the other day as well, was that you? 20:45:30 rpg: I thought all of them did something like that. What alternative do you suggest? 20:45:47 luis: all I remember is that frames worked horribly with YUI. 20:45:50 guaqua, I've just looked at ukijs and it's really nice, dojo seems lame compared to it 20:46:15 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:16 luis: Also odd and unpredictable division of labor between HTML markup and code. 20:46:44 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:46:49 Guthur: Yes, that was mean, in the context of ccl producing different results. Now I wonder what the value should be. Maybe it's left unspecified by the CLHS. 20:47:08 luis I'm off somewhere; we could have this OT convesation (perhaps in query) later... 20:47:21 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:47:40 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:48:33 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-93b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 20:48:36 Xantoz [~hejhej@c-93b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:49:19 rtoym: Its floating point so it might have inaccuracies 20:49:37 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:55 -!- Consalvo [~user@67-23-7-228.static.slicehost.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:50:49 Or at least it can be anyway, from the text I have here the spec only guarantees exactness if the base is rational and the power is an integer 20:51:47 s/rational/(complex rational) 20:51:51 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:52:30 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:54:16 Guthur: Yes, I know there will be inaccuracies. But not on the order of the difference between using 2 and 2d0. 20:54:17 Basically I think it is largely implementation dependent, for that situation 20:54:34 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-233.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:55:46 *rtoym* also finds it annoying that (log 2 10d0) is not the same as (log 2d0 10d0) in some implementations. 20:55:49 There may have been further clarification, I am going by Steele's Common Lisp 20:56:11 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:18 CLHS doesn't say much either. 20:57:25 konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has joined #lisp 20:58:18 Its just one of those things, but CL is not the only language to suffer from inconsistencies in number representation 20:58:49 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:58 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 20:59:06 FP in other languages have also got problems, Java's has some, though I am not sure the details 20:59:08 luis: my in-depth, five minute analysis suggests that while ukijs and Ext JS look like the most impressive imitations of desktop UI toolkits, jQuery UI appears less domineering and the closest to doing the specific two or three things I'm interested in 20:59:09 *rtoym* isn't asking about other languages. :-) 20:59:38 rtoym indeed, I was just discussing, hehe 21:00:06 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:00:19 There might be some numbers lib that provides more consistent behaviour 21:00:36 Maybe I'll just ask on c.l.l. 21:01:47 Guthur: I know how it's computed. And I know how to get CL to produce the answer I want. The question is what should CL actually produce? And why is not the accurate answer the right one? 21:01:57 hefner: I see. I'm mostly interested in not having to tweak CSS too much, at least for a prototype. 21:02:14 rtoym: Like I said it is implementation dependent 21:02:27 They can roll as they wish 21:03:26 I suppose it so as not to enforce too much computational complexity or lack of accuracy, depending how you swing it, on a given implementation 21:03:46 That's not a helpful answer. What if I return 0.0 for every value? It's implementation-dependent after all. 21:05:09 Implementations don't have to be correct to the last bit, but they should be close. But maybe it's ok to say (expt 2 d) can be computed as (expt (* d (log 2))), using the single-float result for log. 21:05:12 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:06:41 rtoym: You will just have to take it up with the erroneous implementation 21:07:14 Its not spec defined from what I see 21:07:21 *rtoym* bbiab 21:07:29 Remember this spec is quite old 21:07:41 Available precision changes 21:07:58 Or rather effectively available 21:08:00 I don't think anyone here loses sight of that :D 21:08:09 (the age of the spec) 21:08:41 hehe maybe it gets better with age, like a fine cheese 21:08:50 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:08:56 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:08:56 Or does it just start to smell... 21:09:16 fine cheese smells 21:09:43 hehe, indeed. 21:09:57 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:09:58 -!- Lupus78 [~lupus@85.232.217.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:10:40 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:44 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-94-140.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:13:23 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-47-22.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:14:31 -!- retupmoca` [~retupmoca@adsl-76-235-180-123.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:16:18 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:17:39 claint [~user@88.247.119.253] has joined #lisp 21:19:52 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:29 -!- davertron [~Dave@vt-sb-1.logicsupply.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:22:24 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:25:00 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:25:07 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:07 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:25:07 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:25:23 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:25:59 -!- Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:27:40 retupmoca` [~retupmoca@99.54.132.61] has joined #lisp 21:28:38 hi, has anyone got the code of lisp RTS game prototype "perfectstorm" by any chance? 21:28:56 Lupus78 [~lupus@85.232.217.159] has joined #lisp 21:31:21 claint: You can try #lispgames, someone was talking about it recently 21:31:30 Not sure if they are still about though 21:32:41 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 21:33:00 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:02 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:07 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 21:34:56 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:35:46 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:37:31 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-200-138.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 21:37:47 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:38:52 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:41:19 !stats test 21:41:22 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:45:00 -!- md1 [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:23 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:46:43 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-91-47.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:04 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:c88a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 21:50:43 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:c88a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:47 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:54:05 -!- Lupus78 [~lupus@85.232.217.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:54:05 Could someone help me with CLORB? How can I make instance of remote object? I'm trying (make-instance 'ftporb:ftp-proxy) but it is not working... :S 21:57:33 gugamilare [~kvirc@200-207-40-188.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:00:17 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-82-156.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: suddenly exhausted] 22:00:38 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03:21 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:04:32 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:50 Lupus78 [~lupus@85.232.217.159] has joined #lisp 22:05:31 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:06:45 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:01 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:07:09 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 22:09:34 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 22:10:01 marioxcc` [~user@200.92.167.131] has joined #lisp 22:10:01 -!- marioxcc` [~user@200.92.167.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:06 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.167.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:41 -!- t3eblinder [~wolfgang@p5B2023DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:10:53 marioxcc [~user@200.92.167.131] has joined #lisp 22:11:26 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:14 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:14:20 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:16:43 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16:52 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-206-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:42 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:18:33 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-205-190.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:38 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:19 pjb [~t@81.202.18.80.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:09 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.16.52.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: ZzZ] 22:29:30 -!- smanek [~smanek@2002:18d5:a488:0:226:bbff:fe03:f491] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:30:08 -!- Lupus78 [~lupus@85.232.217.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:31:17 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 22:31:58 I think this is a better example: (expt 2 #c(2d0 0)) -> #c(4.000000015237235d0 0d0). 22:32:39 I guess my expectation is that if CL is going to return a double-float, then the result should be close to a double-float accuracy. 22:32:41 That does seem a little odd. 22:32:42 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:05 (Not including known float contagion issues.) 22:33:21 Aren't the integers with a logcount of 1 exactly representable as floats (of any kind) up to some limit of the float exponent? 22:34:05 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 22:34:36 Same thing with (log 10 10d0) -> 1.0000000138867557d0. But curiously, (* 4 (atan 1 1d0)) -> pi. 22:34:37 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:34 Yes, they are. The issue is that (expt x y) = (exp (* y (log x))), and if x is rational, log returns a single-float. Hence the inaccuracy. Same for the log issue. 22:35:42 One of these days, I should study floating-point enough to construct some form of coherent clue about them. 22:35:52 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:06 Oh, wait. logcount? Not sure about that. 22:36:27 All integers upto float-digits bits are exactly representable, though. 22:37:09 Or probably float-digits minus 1. 22:37:29 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-145-180-78.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:07 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-86-145.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:40:13 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:44 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.237] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:23 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181217253.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:46 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.94.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:42:55 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.147.37] has joined #lisp 22:42:57 The float mantissa has an implicit leading 1 bit. All other bits are zero. At that point, you can use the exponent to shift that out to the left or in to the right, producing a fraction that has a divisor that is a power of two and a dividend of unity... I think. 22:44:35 ... I'm probably going to have to read the relevant section of MMIXware or that one paper on using ACL2 to prove the behavior of an FPU divide routine. 22:44:46 nyef: right, powers of 2 are represented exactly. 22:44:54 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:45:41 Oh, right. Logcount 1 means a power of two. 22:46:05 Yeah, logcount 1 means only one bit set, which can only be a power of two. 22:46:43 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 22:47:11 I guess everyone implements the core of (atan y x) as atan(y/x), so float contagion gives the desired accuracy. 22:47:15 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:34 rtoym: doesn't that lose sign information? 22:47:37 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ee3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:45 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:47:54 pkhuong: I meant the core, not the entire algorithm. 22:48:12 -!- astalla [~astalla@93-36-229-127.ip62.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 22:48:25 *We* probably do whatever libm or x87 does (: 22:49:22 ichernetsky [~ichernets@93.85.36.54] has joined #lisp 22:49:24 libm takes double-floats, so that's not a problem. x87 works on 80-bit floats, so that's not a problem either. 22:50:01 Well, I don't know what happens if one of the args is a single-float in memory. 22:50:30 -!- christop` [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:37 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:50:49 pkhuong: What do you think about (expt 2 #c(2d0 0)) -> #c(4.000000015237235d0 0d0). 22:51:03 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:51:39 It's #c(2d0 0d0). I'm not too surprised. 22:51:50 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:51:57 rtoym: I think that my first line of inquiry in such a situation is to look at the bits in memory, thus ruling out (or in) problems with the printer or reader. 22:52:39 pkhuong: What? 22:53:06 nyef: I'm pretty sure ccl's and sbcl's printer is good enough not to introduce 9 random digits. 22:53:11 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:53:34 And I'm pretty sure that looking at the bits would let you get to absolute confidence from "pretty sure". 22:53:51 or integer-decode-float (: 22:54:10 Right, i-d-f is -less- likely to screw things up than the printer. 22:54:15 tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:18 Only if you're sure integer-decode-float is right. 22:54:30 sap-ref-64 is almost certain to get it right, though. 22:55:14 But since (exp (* #c(2d0 0) (log 2))) gives the same answer, it's pretty clear this is how the computation is done. 22:55:28 Sbcl does this according to the source code. 22:56:08 The... natural logarithm of 2? 22:56:20 Yep. Returns a single-float. 22:56:42 Anyway, this shows up in maxima. I was hoping not having to work around this in maxima, and say it's a Lisp problem. :-) 22:56:54 Is that even a number representable as a float? 22:57:03 Nope. 22:57:06 (Well, precisely representable?) 23:02:47 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:08:15 stray_hound__ [~stray@c-24-245-50-140.hsd1.wi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:03 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 23:16:50 Lupus78 [~lupus@85.232.217.159] has joined #lisp 23:19:13 -!- gonzojive [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 23:19:15 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-095-208-108-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:19:37 -!- Soulman [~knute@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:25:28 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:25:34 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:26:00 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:28:56 abend [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:03 -!- sykopomp|jeejah [~sykopomp@border.pozitronic.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:35:15 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8F93.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36:34 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: night] 23:37:04 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:39 -!- konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:42:03 -!- Lupus78 [~lupus@85.232.217.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:42:04 mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:53 silenius [~silenius@rrcs-64-183-24-50.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:08 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:50:28 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:58:01 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:58:41 schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:59:08 -!- schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 23:59:10 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:59:11 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp