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Isn't MOP part of SBCL by default? 00:33:58 it's called SB-MOP. 00:37:33 (asdf-install:install :trivial-shell) --> "Server responded 404 for GET http://www.cliki.net/SB-MOP?download" 00:39:38 what are you doing? 00:40:07 in general i am trying to get web4r working (hunchentoot is working already). 00:40:32 in particular i am trying to install trivial-shell because when i try to run web4r i complains about that. 00:41:25 seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:29 lithper1_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:43 jorge203 [jorge203@S0106002215068247.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:49 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-151-37.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:53:24 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 00:58:18 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 00:58:26 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:58:28 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:36 Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:44 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:02:13 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356EFC5.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:03:25 -!- maxigas [~user@78.146.220.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:05:23 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:32 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:07:40 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-58-97.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: brb] 01:08:30 what license is cl-irregsexp under, I'm not finding one in the tarball 01:08:30 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:09:08 maxigas [~user@78.146.220.125] has joined #lisp 01:15:05 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-38-182.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:16:46 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@188.45.15.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:22:59 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:23:22 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:23:59 How do i install Berkeley DB on Ubuntu? there are many packages but the files required by Elephant are not getting on my hard drive somehow... 01:24:23 -!- _macro [~macro@shiva.mochimedia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:24:27 This is just a guess, but you may need the dev files 01:25:16 maxigas: db-dev or something like that 01:25:28 yes, i installed libdb-dev and some similar packages 01:25:37 ah, Elephant. libdb4-dev 01:25:44 but for example "locate db_deadlock" returns nothing. 01:25:52 I mixed it with something different. 01:25:53 chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-xdmgpkxhqrndvmed] has joined #lisp 01:26:04 maxigas: why are you using locate? 01:26:23 aha, there is "db4.6-util - Berkeley v4.6 Database Utilities" 01:27:16 Could I get a 2nd set of eyes on this function, https://gist.github.com/7df3319d45a42ac8d8c7 -- basically what I'm doing is reading a CSV file, using fare-csv, and on each column I'm trying to group it into a list of lists - I'll use this for bayesian probability later on. In the algorithm, doing a (return), I have a feeling, is going out of my function so the macro never finishes, so the file never gets closed - I'm not sure about 01:27:16 this. But from an algorithm standpoint, is there a better way of writing this? 01:27:24 p_l: i am not using deadlock, just trying to check this elephant config file, where i have to give the location of some files. For example ":berkeley-db-deadlock  The full pathname to the BDB utility function db_deadlock" 01:30:00 hmm.. can somebody give a filename that should be in this directory? ":berkeley-db-lib-dir  The pathname for all the Berkeley DB library files " 01:30:24 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:04 TDT: use unwind-protect to guarantee cleanup 01:32:58 pkhuong: Thanks, I haven't used that much in the past, but I will add that in. 01:33:24 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-078-042-205-245.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:36:18 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.48.212] has joined #lisp 01:37:57 ok i think i found them 01:38:58 -!- chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-xdmgpkxhqrndvmed] has quit [Quit: connexion reset by beer] 01:43:20 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-38-182.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:44:30 -!- abugosh [~Adium@70.15.204.182.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:46:03 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has joined #lisp 01:49:18 hmm..ok, this may seem like a dumb question. Here's my a macro with-data-file, and I want to add unwind protect. The documentation says that the first is the protected-form, and the second+ is the cleanup. Since I'm using with-open-file, can unwind protect be used in this case, or do I need to use open and close instead? 01:49:27 oh, forgot the link, it's here: https://gist.github.com/09851332190fe192878c 01:51:12 Doesn't with-open-file establish its own unwind-protect to close the file? 01:51:25 That's...a good question, I haven't looked. 01:52:54 You're right nyef, according to PCL, it does have a built in unwind-protect. 01:53:50 So, problem solved? 01:54:39 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-102-216.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:56:00 Yeah, it is, thanks. 02:01:22 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:01:23 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-35-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:04:44 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 02:04:59 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:06:14 damn, Google made Android Market unavailable on the emulator :/ 02:07:52 Next up: An Android emulator for iPhone? 02:08:05 nyef: too late, there's Android for iPhone already 02:08:11 Fair enough. 02:08:30 continuation of the work that gave us Linux on iPhone a year or two ago 02:09:18 now I'm trying to load a ROM from a phone to emulator :D 02:14:31 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.45.88] has quit [Quit: netytan] 02:14:58 bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-136-248-12.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:25 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:20:14 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.174] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:23:01 -!- Skiy [~skiy@mgdb-4db8d9a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:23:09 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-129-91.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:27:11 Skiy [~skiy@mgdb-4db8cf2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:39 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@209.30.39.152] has joined #lisp 02:28:46 -!- Skiy [~skiy@mgdb-4db8cf2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:29:20 Skiy [~skiy@mgdb-4db8cf2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:20 -!- Skiy [~skiy@mgdb-4db8cf2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:32:20 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:32:23 Skiy [~skiy@mgdb-4db8cf2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:30 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 02:33:20 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:34:50 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@209.30.39.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35:46 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:57 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:37:45 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:38:19 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:38:23 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 02:40:16 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-112-75.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:46 Is there a method like to remove the index element of a list. Say (list 1 2 3 4 5) and I want to remove element 3 without using remove to remove all 3s, fare has a utility that I'm reading that does it, but wondering if anything is built in to do something like this. 02:41:24 -!- proqesi [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:43:38 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:43:38 (remove 3 list :count 1) 02:44:22 The only problem is that my particular data structure isn't as obvious on what it may contain, and is a list of many lists. I'll gist it, one sec. 02:45:33 TDT: You mean you want to remove the 3rd element, rather than the first 3? (let ((x (elt list 3)) (setf (cdr x) (cddr x))) 02:45:37 https://gist.github.com/5c7bc5253301162cafaf -- in my particular case I want to remove the first list in this list, which can be done by (rest), but trying to think if the class variable is in the middle somewhere - so some arbitrary index. 02:45:49 -!- ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:11 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 02:46:34 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:46:36 Anarch: Yeah, basically - and I was thinking there are ways through let to get by this - but I was hoping for a function that I couldn't find in the last 15m of looking :) 02:47:16 (remove-if #'identity list :count 1 :start 3 :end 4) 02:48:01 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.162.144] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:29 identity doesn't work for NIL 02:48:50 (constantly t) does, on the other hand 02:49:59 Interesting, never heard of using identity here, gotta check up on that function. That does basically what I want to do, modified to be: (remove-if #'identity vars :count 1 :start class-index :end (1+ class-index)) 02:51:22 pretty amazing way of applying that, thanks stassats. Makes total sense on what it's doing. 02:53:44 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:55:05 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:55:35 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@cpe-075-189-213-049.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:56:53 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 02:57:44 _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:23 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-151-37.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:15 quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:58 abugosh [~Adium@70.15.204.182.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:40 -!- abugosh [~Adium@70.15.204.182.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:07:29 skeledrew [~skeledrew@port0222-abr-dynamic-adsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:58 abugosh [~Adium@70.15.204.182.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:26 -!- abugosh [~Adium@70.15.204.182.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:37 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:11:46 -!- _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:12:11 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:13:01 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 03:14:13 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:47 schoppenhauer1 [~christoph@ppp-93-104-84-245.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 03:17:44 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:17:57 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:01 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:18:14 is it worth trying to debug asdf on gcl? 03:18:17 lghtng [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/lghtng] has joined #lisp 03:18:38 I have weird bind stack overflow failures that move further when I trace functions 03:18:57 Fare: ... I don't think so 03:19:16 does camm maguire still exist? 03:20:03 afaik the packages that seriously support GCL also seriously support manually-built compile files. 03:20:15 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:20:19 hi, can I use :pty in sb-ext:run-command to run something which needs a terminal like screen? 03:20:48 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:19 egn: yeah, but you better know how to talk to it then 03:21:44 p_l: via sbcl? 03:23:07 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: billstclair] 03:23:11 -!- lghtng [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/lghtng] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:09 or the keyboard 03:28:16 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.48.212] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 03:28:43 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:28:44 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:30:27 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:20 _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:48 egn: I meant that you better know that it might be slightly weirder to drive an app that doesn't use line bufferring i/o mode 03:33:04 p_l: ah, okay 03:35:13 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 03:35:20 -!- jorge203 [jorge203@S0106002215068247.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [] 03:35:23 I want to rebind some keys that normally give hungarian characters on my keyboard to give brackets instead. Does somebody know how to do this in emacs lisp? I think of something like (global-key-set '[a] (insert "("))) 03:36:24 maxigas, go on #emacs - or do it at the X level. 03:40:20 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:02 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:43:44 -!- _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:44:02 semyon421 [~semyon@178.176.204.80] has joined #lisp 03:44:59 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:45:28 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:09 Good morning! 03:48:12 maxigas: (global-set-key "\C-ci" 'iso-accents-mode) 03:48:47 -!- pemryan [~pem@2001:cc0:201e:107:221:86ff:fe1a:e5aa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48:57 beach: good morning i don't have a function like iso-accents-mode 03:49:06 but i have a solution that is working: 03:49:14 (global-set-key (kbd "ü") 'insert-opening-bracket) 03:49:16 maxigas: That was an example. You just put in your own function there. 03:49:35 beach: ah yea OK :) 03:49:39 (defun insert-opening-bracket () 03:49:39 "Inserts opening bracket" 03:49:39 (interactive) 03:49:39 (insert "(")) 03:49:42 03:49:48 like that 03:50:00 Looks plausible. 03:50:14 it doesn't even have to be (interactive) 03:51:48 OK i found exactly what i was looking for: 03:52:05 minion: tell maxigas about lisppaste 03:52:06 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 03:52:14 (global-set-key (kbd "ü") 'insert-opening-paren) 03:52:15 sorry 03:52:49 (global-set-key (kbd "ü") 'quack-insert-opening-paren) 03:54:14 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:54:37 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:17 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 03:57:21 netytan [~netytan@85.211.45.88] has joined #lisp 03:57:27 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:58:50 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kaqyawpscufrobwe] has joined #lisp 04:02:34 -!- ost` is now known as ost 04:02:51 good morning 04:02:58 hello ost 04:03:51 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:05:31 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:06:03 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:55 it seems as though defparameter is working like defvar. If I C-c l the buffer, which has defparameter, they retain their original values. I though defparameter reset them. 04:09:15 -!- shadowspar [~rick@S010600212974d18c.su.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:10:26 It does. 04:10:56 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:11:51 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.152.108] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:13:14 beach: so if I have a file with (defparameter foo nil), then a fun that sets foo to t. If I reload the file, foo is still set to t. 04:14:19 hrm, the defparameter is inside a defpackage, if that makes a difference 04:14:25 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-151-37.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:15:33 _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:27 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:38 I've just got something wonky going on. bleh 04:17:11 beach pasted "For bytecolor: defparameter" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98523 04:19:11 ok, thanks beach. it's getting set somewhere in my code I need to pinpoint ;) 04:21:15 -!- davazp [~user@83.57.37.58] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:21:51 shadowspar [~rick@S010600212974d18c.su.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:55 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 04:29:58 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:30:03 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:37:08 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:08 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:37:08 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 04:42:11 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.192.82] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:42:11 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-151-37.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:46 nunb [~nundan@59.178.213.196] has joined #lisp 04:43:35 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:45:38 mae_tae [~7960fb0e@gateway/web/freenode/x-ilvyavinadrhxsky] has joined #lisp 04:51:59 fantasticsid [~user@2001:da8:8001:2090:212:3fff:febf:613b] has joined #lisp 04:52:03 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:52:08 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:58 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:54:37 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:56:07 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:18 _8david [~user@port-92-195-74-140.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 04:59:41 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-107-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:00:20 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:01:51 -!- fantasticsid [~user@2001:da8:8001:2090:212:3fff:febf:613b] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:02:19 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-79-243.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:02:29 -!- sword [~sword@c-76-115-88-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:03:21 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-79-243.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:04:16 cachou [~cachou@59.174.67.74] has joined #lisp 05:04:34 -!- cachou [~cachou@59.174.67.74] has left #lisp 05:06:42 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:18 wormphlegm [wormphlegm@c-24-17-108-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:25 -!- wormphlegm [wormphlegm@c-24-17-108-64.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:09:35 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 05:10:10 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:10:41 mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 05:12:16 -!- Skiy [~skiy@mgdb-4db8cf2d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [] 05:12:35 -!- _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:14:08 -!- konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:34 konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has joined #lisp 05:14:56 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.21] has joined #lisp 05:15:18 anair_84 [~anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:22 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:33 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:18:02 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:19:52 -!- tantan25 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has left #lisp 05:20:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:21:25 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-51-130.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:04 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:23:35 How much space does an instance of standard-object with 4 full-size slots occupy with SBCL on an x86-64 Linux system? 05:23:55 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:27:32 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-151-37.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:28:30 -!- semyon421 [~semyon@178.176.204.80] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:29:35 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-179-20.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:30:59 leifw [~user@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:04 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 05:33:41 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@port0222-abr-dynamic-adsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:34:12 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:35:49 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 05:35:55 Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:13 -!- erg is now known as ramirez 05:38:46 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 05:40:47 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:41:41 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:42:03 -!- ramirez is now known as erg 05:42:14 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:43:04 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:12 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 05:46:33 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.45.88] has quit [Quit: netytan] 05:47:47 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:48:34 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 05:48:37 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:50:42 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 05:51:18 -!- synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-175-182.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:52:29 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 05:52:34 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:53:03 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 05:55:44 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-158-91.aei.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:58:27 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:43 beach: I think 8 64-bit words 06:00:57 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:01:28 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-168-152-229.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 06:02:15 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:04:22 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:11 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-umbptnotewbufajd] has joined #lisp 06:06:48 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:07:43 Krystof: Thanks! 06:08:44 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:09:22 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:11:56 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 06:11:58 fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-078-042-205-245.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:14:03 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:17:15 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:18:02 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:18:07 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:18:31 -!- rrice [~rrice@76.211.6.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:23:30 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:24:28 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-99-162-100-58.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:41 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:25:13 ASau` [~user@77.246.231.83] has joined #lisp 06:25:15 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25:53 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:27:39 Is pfdietz still maintaining his ansi test suite? 06:28:04 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:39 -!- fatblueduck [~duck@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 06:31:18 quotemstr_ [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:32:55 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:33:40 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:33:47 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:33:47 -!- quotemstr_ is now known as quotemstr 06:35:36 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:36:18 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@HSI-KBW-078-042-205-245.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:36:40 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 06:36:49 beach: nope 06:37:19 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:37:23 beach: it's a mostly erik huelsmann (ehu) and sam steingold these days; there's ansi-tests at cl.net 06:37:47 also available from gmane 06:40:55 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 06:41:00 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:41:03 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.213] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:41:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:42:29 vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-ifqvojvzihcfhsmw] has joined #lisp 06:42:39 -!- quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:42:44 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-bbb5e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:45:58 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qhjkhkszgmbjhbmi] has joined #lisp 06:46:53 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:46:58 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:47:26 good morning 06:47:38 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 06:48:02 morning 06:48:41 I have a Lisp technical question since I'm bindiing enlightenment elementary library: 06:48:55 btw, I checked if ABCL would work on Android... nyet. At least not in compiled mode. 06:49:16 pure interpreter would work, I guess. 06:50:05 Hmm, the byte-code translation would break? 06:50:59 Zhivago: it uses a custom bytecode loader - Dalvik depends on ahead-of-time translation using standalone translation tool 06:51:03 the elemantary must call (elm-init) and (elm-shutdown) that can be called only once inside a lisp machine instance 06:51:17 Joreji [~thomas@82-120.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:51:21 Zhivago: it might be possible to generate Dalvik bytecodes directly, though. 06:51:38 how do I ensure that (elm-shutdown) is called on (quit) ? 06:52:16 for (elm-init) a global var should be sufficient 06:52:57 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:53:13 Are finalizers called upon shutdown? 06:53:14 do you know if such a thing is possible ? 06:53:24 (They ought to be) 06:53:59 kiuma: do you use SBCL? 06:54:01 Zhivago, yes (elm-shutdown) should finalize all elm things 06:54:06 ost, yes 06:54:11 <_8david> Even stuff like IKVM can't run ABCL, which is much closer to a real JVM than I imagine that Dalvik thing to be, because IKVM's class loading isn't lazy enough to be conforming. 06:54:14 No, that's not what I mean by a finalizer. 06:54:20 kiuma: look for sb-ext:*exit-hooks* 06:54:31 _8david: I hacked ABCL to run on IKVM 06:54:39 <_8david> If you don't get the details right, it's simply not Java. 06:54:41 i am runing it at the moment 06:54:51 ost, thanks it should be what I needed 06:55:07 _8david: still, ABCL could be a starting point towards proper CL on Android 06:55:14 ost, but sb-ext:*exit-hooks* is not portable 06:55:30 <_8david> dmiles_afk: if that is the case, good for you. My point is more about how broken things like IKVM and Dalvik are, not about ABCL as such. 06:55:45 kiuma: other Lisps might have similar hooks 06:55:46 IKVM can even run eclipse ;) 06:55:48 kiuma: quit ist not portable either 06:55:58 I read on the Qi mailing list that someone was looking to develop a lisp kernel language under dalvik. 06:56:02 _8david: well, Dalvik never claimed to be conforming Java - IKVM actually tried to be conforming as much as possible. 06:56:05 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:56:07 Which could be used to support Qi, but I haven't heard anything since. 06:56:26 Qi is Per Botner's new lang? 06:56:38 lisp kernel language reminds me of my BASTARD, despite not being exactly the same kind of stuff... 06:56:38 No. That mad Englishman's language. 06:56:43 so I should implement a method for each implementation, the only possibility, correct ? 06:57:10 kiuma: yes 06:57:18 It's quite nice -- sequent calculus based typing, pattern matching, etc. 06:57:29 ok, I've no choices 06:57:30 Qexo - thats what i was thinking 06:57:33 A lisp "kernel language"? 06:57:58 -!- tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 06:57:58 quotemstr: Yes. Upon which to build larger lisps. 06:58:10 quotemstr: small lisp that would serve to implement the big one 06:58:14 Ah, I see. 06:58:15 ost, the other question is: should I use CLOS for elementary ? 06:58:26 kinda like BBN CL used BBN Scheme for kernel language? 06:58:30 Such as, say, the collection of special forms from CL? 06:58:37 probably more like pre-scheme and scheme48 06:58:38 ost, this is more a design question 06:58:40 kiuma: it's up to you. I don't know anything about Elementary 06:58:45 or LIL and Genera 06:58:48 Well, those special forms are a bit high level for most things. 06:58:54 ost, more or less like gtk 06:58:55 Have a look at Baker's paper on it. 06:59:02 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59:05 kiuma: are the widgets in any way structured as object hierarchy with common methods? then Yes 06:59:07 nowhere_man [pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:18 ost, what a real lisper (that I'm not) would expect = 06:59:19 *quotemstr* reads more about PreScheme. 06:59:20 kiuma: use CLOS then, yes 06:59:44 ok, I hope do do a nice job 07:01:29 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755c52.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:36 dang Qi .. is nice Unification system that targets lisp 07:02:53 It contains a prolog. 07:03:06 mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:03:14 tyey seem to imply they write a prolog program .. before hiting lisp 07:03:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-120.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:03:53 Not quite -- they compile from Qi to CL. The Qi implementation contains some prolog code which will get used in the process. 07:04:01 ah 07:05:06 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 07:05:08 Has anyone used PreSceme for any real work? 07:07:12 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:10:34 what is the type for "unsigned char" in CFFI ? 07:10:56 scheme48's written in it... I believe Riastradh was using it for something a while back 07:11:03 http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Built_002dIn-Types.html 07:11:04 check the #scheme channel perhaps 07:12:21 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:14:46 kiuma: :unsigned-char 07:15:35 Interesting. 07:15:43 AutoLISP has immutable *list* cells? 07:16:43 Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-32-33.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:17:03 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:17:04 ost, and when I pass it to the function requiring an :unsigned-char ? #\0 is not correct 07:19:14 kiuma: pass an integer, not character 07:19:41 kiuma: C doesn't really have character type you know 07:20:00 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:20:02 right, C "char" is simply a reflection of the address space resolution 07:20:07 (in most cases) 07:21:52 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 07:25:50 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755c52.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26:17 ok thanks 07:27:57 licoress_ [~user@cm-84.209.103.64.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 07:28:43 pholious [~91750799@gateway/web/freenode/x-wyxaqanlvizukbxf] has joined #lisp 07:29:03 Hrn, the DKLisp paper actually makes a good argument for lists and most arrays being immutable. 07:29:31 swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 07:29:59 codeassembly [~givan@188.25.63.252] has joined #lisp 07:31:17 hey guys, when I have a function described as: "function-name(arg1 &key arg2 arg3)", is the key a combination of pwy and direction? 07:31:38 pwy? 07:31:45 oops 07:31:49 arg 2 and arg3 I meant 07:32:20 It means that there are two keys that will be decoded -- named arg2 and arg3. 07:32:56 (defun f (&key a b c) (list a b c)) 07:33:06 (f :a 10) -> (10 nil nil) 07:33:16 Try other combinations. 07:33:40 aahhh I see, that makes sense, didn't know key values could be just NIL though :D 07:34:07 That's the default default. 07:34:19 &key (a 4) 07:34:26 a will default to 4. 07:34:41 ah awesome :) 07:34:46 thanks so much Zhivago ! 07:35:04 Read about lambda lists. 07:35:38 okay :) 07:35:45 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/03_d.htm -- you're looking at Ordinary Lambda Lists. 07:39:27 this? 07:39:28 define-method-combination name lambda-list (method-group-specifier*) [(:arguments . args-lambda-list)] [(:generic-function generic-function-symbol)] [[declaration* | documentation]] form* 07:39:40 oh wait 07:39:43 I see 07:39:48 with cdr and car 07:40:05 See the "Ordinary Lambda List" section. 07:40:30 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/03_da.htm 07:40:49 I just gave that so that you'd be aware that there were other kinds of lmabda list syntax to consider. 07:41:05 yeah found it :D 07:41:19 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:43:03 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:46:07 Axius [~hi@92.84.25.129] has joined #lisp 07:49:58 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:51:48 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:55:07 -!- maxigas [~user@78.146.220.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:55:16 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:56:25 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:57:14 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:57:55 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.25.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:01:01 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 08:01:07 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 08:01:39 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:01:40 Is EQUALP required to do something sane with circular data structures? 08:01:55 (Or EQUAL for that matter) 08:02:20 quotemstr: EQ should be enough for recognising circularity... 08:02:52 No, I mean, given two arbitrary values, I can imagine equal and equalp dying a horrible death if one of them is circular. 08:03:00 (defstruct (test (:type hash-table)) a b c) 08:03:03 *Krystof* *blinks* 08:03:20 that's exactly the kind of insane hack that we should be encouraging! 08:03:37 ? 08:03:43 Krystof: Why would you want to do that? 08:03:51 if one is circular and the other is not, they'll diverge 08:03:59 hence causing a nil return 08:04:14 Phoodus: Okay, (equal some-circular-structure some-circular-structure) 08:04:22 They never diverge. 08:04:24 if you try to equal/equalp _equivalent_ recursive lists, then yeah you'll have a problem 08:04:32 quotemstr: why not? :-) 08:04:57 you're not allowed to give most standard functions that expects list a circular list 08:05:08 clhs 14.1.2.3 08:05:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/14_abc.htm 08:05:34 equalp works on conses, not lists 08:06:01 except list-length I can't think off hand of another one that is guaranteed to do something sensible with circular lists 08:06:24 stassats: good point 08:06:37 Ah, I see. 08:06:51 So it's perfectly fine to die a horrible flaming death on circularity. 08:06:58 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:07:00 it won't die 08:07:04 stassats: in this particular example, what's the distinction? 08:07:34 Phoodus: it doesn't have to be proper 08:07:46 does "list" imply proper? 08:08:02 in the common usage 08:08:24 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:26 yes 08:08:30 see the link above 08:09:07 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 08:09:13 hmm, but equalp doesn't havea a parameter that must be a list 08:09:18 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 08:09:32 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:10:05 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A9C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:05 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-82-194.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:15:07 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 08:15:35 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:58 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:18:10 Good morning! 08:23:51 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:24:03 zomgbie [~jesus@mk090152137158.a1.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:13 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:29:57 good morning spiaggia :) 08:31:17 Joreji [~thomas@78-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:31:42 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 08:33:25 Xantoz [~hejhej@c-93b6e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:36:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:37:13 -!- SandGorgon 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[~fiveop@g229169074.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:55:22 wbraun [~wolfgang@eap111084.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:25 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:58:10 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 09:00:08 Why are plists and not alists used for symbols? 09:01:21 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:01:25 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:02:01 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:02:03 quotemstr: my guess is that 1. they print mare nicely/compactly, and 2. some historic reasons 09:02:44 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:44 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:03:09 -!- schoppenhauer1 [~christoph@ppp-93-104-84-245.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:03:48 billitch [~billitch@dslb-094-223-080-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:26 knight_ [~knight@adsl-71-142-81-218.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:32 -!- mae_tae [~7960fb0e@gateway/web/freenode/x-ilvyavinadrhxsky] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:13:58 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:14:46 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:16:39 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:16:42 fisxoj [~fisxoj@80.153.54.206] has joined #lisp 09:18:18 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:20:03 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 09:21:24 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@80.153.54.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:26:06 nurv [nurv@83.231.17.18] has joined #lisp 09:26:23 Morning. 09:26:30 hi nurv 09:27:45 -!- codeassembly [~givan@188.25.63.252] has left #lisp 09:28:00 Ogedei [~user@e178224000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:19 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:28:40 hi, ost. :) 09:29:21 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:31:09 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-249.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:33:12 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:57 Joreji [~thomas@78-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:35:25 -!- billitch [~billitch@dslb-094-223-080-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:44:02 -!- konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:49:00 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:51:40 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:52:14 dcibiel 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10:05:21 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.17.18] has quit [] 10:07:45 hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-116-147.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 10:08:12 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:09:57 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:41 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:13:17 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:13:24 metasyntax` [~taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:36 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:22:43 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:24:08 is it allowed in a defun to create another defun used multiple times in the main defun scope? or would it be the proper way to define it outside of the defun? 10:24:34 use flet or labels 10:24:35 it is allowed, but that's a bad style 10:24:54 thought so, okay flet or labes, gonna look that up :) 10:24:58 thanks 10:25:01 clhs flet 10:25:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 10:25:15 labels allows flets to refer to each other and themselves recursively 10:25:43 labels is like flets but allows functions to refer to each other and themselves recursively :-P 10:28:34 hmmm, I don't really get the difference between flet and defun though, they seem to do exactly the same? 10:28:49 flet defines local functions 10:28:50 WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:34 (flet ((a (x) (+ x 1))) (a 1)) -> 2 10:29:43 (flet ((a (x) (+ x 1)))) (a 1) -> wtf a is undefined 10:30:07 (defun a (x) (+ x 1)) (a 1) -> 2 10:30:31 of course, without indentation it's a bit harder to differentiate :-P 10:30:40 aaahh, I see, keep it local and clean as it isn't used outside of the main defun's scope 10:31:15 flet also can use main function's arguments 10:31:52 ah, pretty neat :D 10:31:53 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-163-29.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:32:21 TR2N` [email@89-180-175-102.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:36:46 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:37:36 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-99-162-100-58.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 10:38:49 -!- Paraselene_ [~Not@79-68-232-53.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:41:53 Paraselene_ [~Not@79-67-148-135.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 10:42:29 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.213.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:43:06 nunb [~nundan@59.178.204.104] has joined #lisp 10:43:58 -!- knight_ [~knight@adsl-71-142-81-218.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:17 dknight [~knight@adsl-71-142-81-218.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:20 TR2N [email@89-180-185-49.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:47:06 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 10:49:29 -!- TR2N` [email@89-180-175-102.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:50:33 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:52:23 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:53:16 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:54:33 is there a special function in lisp that can print certain characters times an integer? for for example, if I input the integer 4, the function will print "\t" times four? or do I just simply have to loop it myself? 10:54:52 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 10:55:50 (make-string 4 :initial-element #\Tab) 10:56:24 ooohh, that's nice :D 10:57:43 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 11:06:45 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 11:08:01 -!- egoz [~Egoz@114.79.55.96] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:08:42 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:08:48 egoz [~Egoz@114.79.55.96] has joined #lisp 11:10:03 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:10:15 Why does CL:FORMATTER exist? 11:10:22 Can't you just use a closure? 11:10:37 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:56 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:11:23 hefnr [~root@ppp-58-9-116-147.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:12:03 synthase [~synthase@adsl-146-227-141.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:42 quotemstr: you certainly could just use a closure yourself, but CL:FORMATTER gives implementations an opportunity to pre-compile the format string. Don't know whether any actually do that, though. 11:14:29 can't you precompile it with FORMAT? 11:14:47 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-116-147.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:15:00 If the control string is a literal string, yes. 11:15:34 Or some other compile-time constant 11:15:45 formatter can precompile if it's not a literal string? 11:15:57 Sure, it's a function that returns a function 11:16:07 it's a macro 11:17:31 clhs 22.2.1.3 11:17:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_bac.htm 11:17:38 you're right 11:17:44 "The formatter macro provides the efficiency of using a compiled function to do that same printing but without losing the textual compactness of format strings." 11:19:04 I suppose it could still expand into something that does the compilation at run time 11:19:55 But the implementation I'm looking at (CCL) doesn't 11:20:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:22:03 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:23:09 It avoids a little of the run-time overhead of FORMAT, but not much 11:23:17 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 11:23:26 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:23:37 *quotemstr* considers using a parser generator to implement FORMAT. 11:23:59 -!- egoz [~Egoz@114.79.55.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:24:42 sbcl already compiles format string, even without formatter 11:25:29 note, there is M-x slime-format-string-expand 11:25:29 Ok. Does it compile at run-time WITH formatter, so you can get compilation of built-up format strings? Not that I remember ever doing that... 11:26:06 But I think you've convinced me that FORMATTER is mostly useless 11:28:05 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 11:30:04 I love how FORMAT strings can call arbitrary functions. 11:30:37 with ~//? not quite arbitrary 11:32:40 perhaps formatter is useful when you want to reuse the same control string, but don't want to waste space 11:33:29 don't want to waste space and want efficiency 11:33:53 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 11:34:07 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35:43 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229169074.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 11:38:47 i'm thinking about using "read" to read from a socket... i wonder if I should muck with the read-table for security reasons, i.e., disable whatever macro dispatch characters might let the malicious client take over my system somehow 11:39:01 but i don't have a good sense of what the default reader contains or how to figure that out 11:39:14 clop: binding *read-eval* to nil should be sufficient. 11:39:16 and surely it could be done with a closure, but that's a not valid argument, because the whole CL could be done with one LAMBDA 11:40:05 stassats: Not the pretty printer. I think you need a virgin sacrifice to power that thing. :-) 11:41:18 besides *read-eval*, one can intern too many symbols 11:41:33 hmm stassats, is there a way to not print the quotes from the make-string function? 11:41:48 True; I don't think there's such a thing as a non-interning READ though. 11:41:56 ah yeah 11:42:03 pholious: use the right printing function, which sets *print-escape* to NIL 11:42:15 pholious: use princ 11:42:15 e.g. PRINC 11:42:23 maybe i should do somethign like, read at most n characters at a time into a string, then try to read from that string 11:42:29 ahhh okay, great! 11:42:30 just to kind of hang up on a client that sends too big of a command 11:43:12 do you need a full lisp reader? 11:43:15 *quotemstr* wonders whether it's possible to portably write a (with-maximum-consing ...) macro. 11:43:24 *quotemstr* wonders whether it's even possible non-portably. 11:43:48 stassats, probably not... but it might be nice to not worry much about it 11:44:29 quotemstr: i sure the latter is possible, it's just a SMOP 11:44:47 s/i/i'm/ 11:45:38 Hrm, do _any_ major Lisp implementations have a non-interning reader? 11:45:58 as a standard reader? 11:46:08 Well, as an extension to the standard reader. 11:46:47 skeledrew [~skeledrew@port0222-abr-dynamic-adsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:54 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:47:03 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:48:42 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 11:48:59 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 11:50:59 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:52:18 schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:54:39 -!- martin` [~user@159.92.64.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:55:11 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:57:05 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:34 nurv [nurv@83.231.60.186] has joined #lisp 12:02:25 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@mk090152137158.a1.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:03:05 A simple lisp reader that doesn't allow interning of new symbols would be pretty easy to write. You could limit it to symbols in a package of SAFE functions, too. 12:04:18 the current sbcl reader will choke on 8d200000000000 12:05:25 zan-xhipe [~user@41-133-107-78.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:05:31 As long as you don't try to handle CL numeric literals. 12:07:26 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@port0222-abr-dynamic-adsl.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 12:08:09 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:10:28 hmm, seems I need a special version of princ to print strings to a stream without the quotes. if I try something like "(format stream "~S~%" (make-string tab-amount :initial-element (princ #\Tab)))" it only prints the tabs without quotes in the terminal but not my output file somehow 12:11:02 you're extremely confused 12:11:41 codeassembly [~givan@188.25.63.4] has joined #lisp 12:11:47 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 12:12:40 well I see that using princ on the initial-element is not going to work, but princ itself cannot print to a stream right? 12:12:56 that's precisely what it does 12:13:24 netytan [~netytan@85.211.45.88] has joined #lisp 12:13:25 if you want to print to a stream, you don't need to construct a string 12:13:31 oh so I could do (princ stream "foobar") ? 12:13:42 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 12:13:44 (dotimes (i tab-amount) (princ #\Tab stream)) 12:14:27 clhs princ 12:14:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 12:14:46 pholious: you could read this, without trying to guess how it works 12:15:34 yeah, was right there in the end :S I should really spend more time reading the docs indeed 12:17:38 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:18:46 Joreji [~thomas@75-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:23:28 -!- tsuru` is now known as tsuru 12:26:11 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755c52.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:31 kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:19 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 12:34:08 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 12:39:57 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:57 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:39:59 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:42:00 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0184-85-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:17 sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has joined #lisp 12:42:54 xan_ [~xan@89.180.238.51] has joined #lisp 12:43:18 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:44:44 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-umbptnotewbufajd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47:01 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:47:18 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:48:01 -!- xan_ [~xan@89.180.238.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:49:01 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:51:56 -!- sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has quit [Quit: sellout] 12:55:25 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:42 -!- ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit [Quit: brb] 12:59:57 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:00:45 Zhivago: What's so hard about CL literals? You just need to handle radix specifications. 13:00:55 (Well, and floats and rationals, but who uses those?) 13:01:02 You're probably better off just using a JSON reader. 13:01:03 They're ambiguous with symbols. 13:01:09 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:01:17 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 13:01:24 You need to essentially read them in completely before you can decide if it is a number or a symbol. 13:01:33 Zhivago: So? 13:01:52 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:02:31 So it makes parsing them ugly -- you need indefinite lookahead. 13:02:59 You need to store the whole thing in the string case anyway. 13:03:03 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:10 egoz [~Egoz@114.79.55.86] has joined #lisp 13:03:29 You wouldn't if it were a grammar that were parsable with a LALR(1) machine. 13:03:37 Basically, the algorithm is string foo = read_symbol(inp); if(looks_like_number(foo)) { return make_number(foo); } else { return intern(foo); } 13:03:49 Yes, and that's pretty horrible. 13:03:57 Zhivago: True. Simple, but horrible. 13:04:27 Zhivago: I wish Lisp's syntax were simpler and not specified in the form of readtables and such. 13:04:50 Like much of CL, readtables are an expedient hack that made sense decades ago. 13:04:56 Not so much today. 13:04:57 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:05:39 If it were designed around parser combinators or something, then the above ugliness would be more excusable. 13:05:57 quotemstr: One of the top hits to the erik naggum cll archive is a search for "common lisp bnf" 13:06:40 Writing a compliant lisp reader is complicated. Writing one that's good enough for most purposes is easy. I wrote the bootstrap reader for a PDP-11 Scheme interpreter in assembly language over 30 years ago. It wasn't hard. 13:07:18 Sure, but then that's your toy Lisp, not Common Lisp proper. 13:07:38 Right, but a toy reader is, I think, what quotemstr needs 13:07:52 Of course, C grammar can't be handled by a BNF either, so ymmv. 13:07:53 Huh? I don't need a reader. It's that other guy. 13:07:57 sorry 13:07:58 My toy Lisp has its own reader. :-) 13:07:58 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:08:26 clop 13:09:44 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:10:33 hello playing with CFFI I have the following issue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/98534#1 13:10:59 zomgbie [~jesus@mk090152137158.a1.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:08 what's wrong with let variables ? 13:11:30 hi 13:11:48 Hrm, apparently I implemented my Lisp's reader using parsing combinators without realizing it. It seemed like the natural thing to do. 13:15:23 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.] 13:15:47 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:10 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:16:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 13:20:23 kiuma: I'm not sure there's anything wrong with let variables, they have their uses, but as I understand it aren't totally functional programming. 13:21:10 TDT no C functiona are destructive 13:22:25 TDT: Why would using local variables be contrary to functional programming? 13:22:26 TDT: let statements can expand to lambdas just fine 13:22:41 TDT: And why do you want to do functional programming? 13:22:49 (let ((x 1) (y 2)) ...) -> ((lambda (x y) ...) 1 2) 13:23:41 TDT: You are correct -- but it isn't the binding that isn't functional but the body. 13:23:57 TDT: (lambda () a b c) isn't a function -- it is a procedure. 13:24:25 I know that the code is not written in a CL way, but it's only a test for now 13:24:43 it's simply a plain translation from C 13:24:48 kiuma: C functions need not be destructive 13:24:56 yes 13:25:24 kiuma: was the original meant to be called several times in the same process? 13:25:44 kiuma: just remember to avoid having places in let that are defined at compile time then SETF-ed 13:26:09 I still consider it the most hilarious bug I ever encountered in my own code 13:26:12 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 13:26:33 pkhuong, no 13:26:37 spiaggia: I'm not saying that I so much want to use pure functional stuff, or I'd end up with scheme or something like that - I have no problem with let, just was making a general comment is all :) 13:26:43 Zhivago: Point well taken, you're right. 13:26:50 kiuma: so... how did you arrive at your diagnosis? 13:27:19 pkhuong, just guessing 13:27:35 *trying to guess 13:27:36 dlowe: That's an interesting way of putting it, and didn't know that's how it expanded in the backend. 13:28:23 TDT: well, it doesn't have to be, but it certainly can be 13:29:16 p_l, do you mean that first I have to assign (null-pointer) to let vars ? 13:29:20 You don't want to be allocating a closure every time you bind some local variables, after all 13:30:06 -!- schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:30:12 kiuma: not necessarily, just avoid stuff like putting a literal vector in a let variable then changing the value of the variable in the code... 13:30:20 (inside the let block code) 13:30:37 mmm.... it seems interesing 13:31:42 I did that by mistake and found out that SBCL created "static" variable allocated near the code of the function that was edited with each setf and not reset on when it entered the let block, because instead of (make-array) it encountered a literal array... 13:32:02 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@mk090152137158.a1.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:32:19 implementation is free to burn your computer at such code without breaking conformance with ANSI ;-) 13:32:24 zomgbie [~jesus@mk090152137158.a1.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:55 p_l: sbcl gives warnings in some cases of that. 13:33:09 "attempt to modify literal data" or something similar. 13:33:14 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:33:27 -!- lithper1_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:35 and I have the same result changin the function with : 13:33:42 Now, what's cute is the use of load-time-value in order to get that effect -legally-. 13:34:26 http://paste.lisp.org/display/98534#2 13:34:29 but not across the program 13:34:29 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 13:34:34 C compilers do something similar. void foo() { const double bar[] = {1,2,3}; } gets turned into a global. 13:35:29 ... I think I finally found the -real- cause of that GC failure: gencgc doesn't scrub the control stack. 13:35:47 marioxcc [~user@200.92.160.175] has joined #lisp 13:35:51 how does that work on x86? 13:35:57 Fare: we're conservative on stack. 13:36:06 Worst case, we pin pages for nothing. 13:36:19 Right, but on PPC we're -precise- on the stack, even in gencgc. 13:36:31 (And we're precise in registers, too, as they're partitioned.) 13:36:45 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:47 ... I think I'm worried about pinning, now. 13:37:58 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:23 So, the scenario is: Use up a bunch of control stack space, then unwind, then GC. Everything in the live stack area is relocated but the junk data from discarded frames remains untouched. Next, allocate a bunch of stack space and GC again. You now have a chance to get stale pointers in the unused parts of your stack frames. -Boom-. 13:38:37 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:40:35 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:43 Speaking of efficiency and allocation..on a particular project I'm working on, I have about 8000 examples, and need to do naive bayes on it as well as knn. Storing all this information in memory couold be an issue with even larger data sets - but rereading the csv file is also wasteful. Are there other options, like intermediate files in a more lisp-friendly structure that I don't have to parse multiple times? 13:40:49 -!- egoz [~Egoz@114.79.55.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:10 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:18 TDT: lisp can read sexps pretty quickly. 13:42:17 TDT: on the other hand, 8GB of memory is $29.95 and one box top from any kelloggs brand cereal. 13:42:17 ecraven [~nex@octonex.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:42:17 TDT: What's wrong with OS paging? 13:42:20 http://blog.bitquabit.com/2009/05/20/your-language-features-are-my-libraries/ <--- good argument IMHO regarding why macros and other features are useful :) 13:42:39 OS paging is OS dependent 13:43:00 TDT: dumping data into fasls? 13:43:02 There's mmap and FFI, or mmap and implementation-specific tricks 13:43:34 TDT: Why not just use a database? 13:43:36 For 8000 examples, I'm not goign to run into issues with memory, but just thinking in general that say if I had 8 million or so examples, that could be a bit more of a problem and am trying to do more with this class project than perhaps I should :) 13:43:43 TDT: They're designed around just the workload you're asking about. 13:43:54 TDT: Try BDB. 13:44:01 TDT: partition the data and dynamically load/unload it? 13:44:23 8M? How large is each example? 13:44:30 <_8david> isn't the key operation here not storing the documents/examples in memory, but rather having quick access to the table of word frequencies? 13:44:44 tantan22 [~tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has joined #lisp 13:45:02 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:39 pkhuong: Just thinking ahead at this point, more trying to guess a size that maybe some measure of swapping will happen is all :) 13:45:50 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:46:37 _8david: I think that depends on the algorithm used..I'm using k-nearest neighbors for this, which I need to talk with xach about once I develop my algorithm since he did something like it already - but for that, storing the vectors in memory is important to my understanding. I'm not familiar of much pruning you can do. 13:46:57 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-37-147.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:47:02 I'm with _8david here. What do you have to perform on your raw data anyway? 13:47:05 p_l: Yeah, that would make the most sense...I think just when it gets high enough I should probably just switch to using a db of some sort instead. 13:48:18 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:48:46 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-35-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:51:59 ... SBCL is still in code-freeze, isn't it? 13:52:51 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:52:54 right. 13:54:22 the slushiest freeze I remember for quite a while 13:54:25 "if you used a better VCS you wouldn't have to stop development" 13:54:27 Some part of me is saying "this GC fix really should go in, it's four lines and two are comment and one is blank, and it's an important fix", and another part is saying "code freeze is sacred, and if we commit too much in a freeze period we tend to get a bad release". 13:54:40 (except, of course, there's still value in 'let's focus on release testing') 13:54:56 we don't have to stop development; I haven't noticed people stopping their development; and we have a better VCS 13:54:57 xan_ [~xan@a81-84-164-63.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 13:54:58 My god, compiler-let is an eldritch horror. 13:55:03 apart from that... you're exactly right :-) 13:55:11 heh 13:55:58 Still not sure how I feel about fixing bugs people haven't complained about in months during freeze. 13:56:10 I'll release tomorrow and then you can all go wild on HEAD again 13:56:16 Yay! 13:56:32 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@mk090152137158.a1.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:56:51 *nyef* has a pile of random fixes, including ones that bring x86 test suite results down to two failures (and one hang from that run-program inherit-stdin test). 13:57:02 zomgbie [~jesus@mk090152137158.a1.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:04 zan-xhip` [~user@41-133-107-78.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:57:22 -!- synthase [~synthase@adsl-146-227-141.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:58:07 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:58:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:58:31 -!- zan-xhipe [~user@41-133-107-78.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:00:52 -!- spoofy [~nespoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 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[~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:23:20 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:23:59 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:30 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:25:02 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:10 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:7e6d:62ff:fe8f:f9c9] has joined #lisp 14:27:52 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 14:28:22 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:28:42 grrrr, when xcvb was made with ccl, it had to use cl-launch as a wrapper for ccl images, which would override $CCL from the environment, which would confuse poor XCVB when it tries to determine what CCL implementation to use for the *target* environment. 14:28:44 Sigh. 14:29:40 in cases like that, should I distinguish the variables used by cl-launch ($CCL) and xcvb ($XCCL), or should I use clever wrapping-around to save the old value of CCL and restore it in time, or what? 14:31:47 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:7e6d:62ff:fe8f:f9c9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:51 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:32:04 *nyef* would go with the separation of variables as being simpler. 14:34:05 nipra [~nipra@115.118.241.88] has joined #lisp 14:34:15 -!- palter [palter@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 14:34:44 tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:34:47 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:18 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:35:58 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:36:29 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:36:44 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:09 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:40 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:38:20 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:51 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:39:31 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39:42 nurv|afk [nurv@62.32.133.23] has joined #lisp 14:40:00 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-102-216.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 14:40:02 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:40:41 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:13 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:41:52 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:55 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 14:42:06 seems like palter is having some issues? :P 14:42:23 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:42:38 -!- nurv [nurv@83.231.60.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:42:55 palter: you okay? lol 14:43:03 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:07 apparently not 14:43:09 haha 14:43:09 nyef, thanks. That's what I did for the same reason. Sigh. 14:43:34 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:44:14 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:22 he will come back? :D 14:44:45 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:45:25 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:38 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 14:45:53 There comes a point where someone with such issues is asked to sort them out elsewhere, so as to not bother the rest of the channel. 14:46:15 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has quit [Client Quit] 14:46:31 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:48:23 You could try this: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ErcIgnoring if you're using erc. That way to just hide the join/part messages. 14:48:58 I'm not sure it worked yet, I just ran (setq erc-hide-list '("JOIN" "PART" "QUIT")) 14:49:00 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:49:45 jmbr [~jmbr@bpcmat07.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 14:51:48 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:53:24 Sure, ask three hundred people to tweak their IRC clients, some of which might not have -options- for such things, instead of asking one person to sort out their connection issues elsewhere. 14:54:04 And for those who like watching for when certain people arrive and depart, they get to do even -more- complicated configuration. 14:54:10 I now have some weird issues trying to dump a CCL image after using POIU. Hum. 14:54:47 nyef: heh, true 14:54:48 oh, I agree that palter should fix the issue...I have this feeling he may not even be there if he's not answering at all or doesn't notice this. This fixes the issue for me in a lot of rooms, so I'm glad I looked up how to do this. Rather just see content than op/exit/enter and so on. 14:55:03 Joreji [~thomas@75-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:55:21 *p_l* ignores all JOINs/QUITs/PARTs then allows them back for people he wants to know about 14:55:30 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 14:56:01 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:56:23 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:47 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:52 -!- nurv|afk is now known as nurv 15:03:28 Pidgin ignores them unless the person wo quit talked within the last 10-20minutes 15:03:39 I find that pretty reasonable 15:04:00 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@mk090152137158.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:04:00 *attila_lendvai* looks at pidgin 15:04:05 egoz [~Egoz@114.79.55.86] has joined #lisp 15:04:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:05:12 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.83] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:06:06 -!- wbraun [~wolfgang@eap111084.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:06:15 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:06:48 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:55 attila_lendvai1 [~alendvai@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:09:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:10:00 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 15:11:37 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 15:12:28 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:16 cenazoic [~Cena2@173-8-125-206-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:41 pers [~user@45.sub-75-231-27.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:47 -!- NNshag [user@lns-bzn-54-82-251-76-53.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:14:28 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-88-85.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:06 -!- egoz [~Egoz@114.79.55.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:17:11 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:17:21 now using pidgin? 15:17:59 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:29 -!- vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-ifqvojvzihcfhsmw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:17 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 15:21:22 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:31 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:38 *attila_lendvai* seems to be a xchat -> pidgin convert 15:23:51 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:25:38 Good evening! 15:25:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~alendvai@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 15:26:26 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.180.187] has joined #lisp 15:26:38 -!- pholious [~91750799@gateway/web/freenode/x-wyxaqanlvizukbxf] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:26:39 Hello beach. 15:27:03 hello beach 15:27:18 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:42 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Quit: off to home] 15:28:15 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:28:17 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.180.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:32 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:42 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:29:08 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:32 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-102-216.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:29:47 Hmm, hold on a sec... The CLHS says that the from-end argument to count-if has no direct effect on the result (reasonbable) BUT, it says the elements of the sequence are supplied to the test, key etc. in reverse order. So that ought to be true for find-if as well. 15:30:00 attila_lendvai [~alendvai@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:30:24 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:30:41 kenjin [~kenjin@163.152.180.187] has joined #lisp 15:31:09 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kaqyawpscufrobwe] has left #lisp 15:31:09 -!- kenjin is now known as Guest61651 15:31:14 apparently, ccl's backtrace bottoms out at save-image, then there's a slot-unbound, then plenty of attempts to print an error without a stream (why no stream?) then it borks. 15:31:20 I wonder if the person who wrote the CLHS page for find-if thought that the statement there implied a right-to-left traversal. 15:31:32 -!- Guest61651 [~kenjin@163.152.180.187] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31:48 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.180.187] has joined #lisp 15:32:18 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:33:38 error happens from CLEAR-IOBLOCK-STREAMS in lib/dumplisp.lisp 15:33:49 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:33:49 I'll upgrade CCL and see if it happens still. 15:34:11 beach, do you mean left-to-right? 15:34:30 -!- attila_lendvai [~alendvai@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 15:34:46 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-112-75.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 15:35:12 unless :from-end t is specified, that is, where right-to-left is explicit. 15:35:23 Fare: No, I am suspecting that the author, when writing that it returns the rightmost element that satisfies the test thought that this implied a right-to-left traversal. 15:35:42 beach: that's when from-end is T, isn't it? 15:35:48 yes 15:36:01 to me, it doesn't make much sense to depend on side-effects inside find-if 15:36:09 then yes, right-to-left is explicitly specified when from-end is T 15:36:38 Fare: But it doesn't say that, and SBCL doesn't implement it that way. 15:36:47 for count, i possible see that it's like a MAPC, but with a count of successful applications 15:37:04 possibly 15:37:17 Are there any standard macros that require the environment mechanism _except_ for setf? 15:37:18 I really don't see the difference. 15:37:35 quotemstr: how do you mean? 15:38:09 tcr: The environment argument to a macro is useful for when a macro needs to compute the macro-expansion of its parameters before figuring out its own expansion. setf needs to do that; does anything else? 15:38:12 there are lots of function which take an optional environment object 15:38:28 CONSTANTP takes environment 15:38:40 subtypep, constantp, macroexpand-1, macroexpand, probably forgot one or two 15:38:47 the upgraded-foo-type 15:39:07 I'd say that in the few cases where side-effects matter in a find-if (e.g. to avoid errors), guaranteed traversal order would be a great thing to have. And where it doesn't matter, I don't see what optimizations you gain by not specifying. 15:39:11 find-class 15:39:17 Sure, those functions take an environment; I'm not asking about that, but rather about whether any higher-level facilities require that environments be present. 15:39:28 attila_lendvai [~alendvai@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:39:32 Fare: There's a section which says it's actually implementation-dependent 15:39:37 maybe parallelization -- but would only be safe if CL had a way to specify purity, which it doesn't. 15:39:52 So from running time on find-if and count-if, I see that find-if doesn't cons, whereas count-if does. 15:40:02 quotemstr: Any macro which uses one of those functions 15:40:38 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:40:40 beach: if you use slime and sbcl, the numbers may easily be skewed 15:41:08 tcr: They look pretty consistent though. 15:41:14 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:42:12 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:42:48 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:42:50 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:26 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:47:19 no other sequence function with :from-end says anything about order 15:47:59 Hmm... 15:48:17 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:46 So is it that they wanted the :from-end in there, but since it doesn't influence the result, they changed the semantics of it? 15:48:50 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:56 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:48:56 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 15:49:16 Joreji [~thomas@75-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:50:44 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:50:52 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:01 cl-launch -l 'clisp ccl sbcl allegro lispworks gcl ecl' -B tests - success on 1874 tests! 15:51:01 http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node145.html "The :from-end argument does not affect the result returned; it is accepted purely for compatibility with other sequence functions." 15:51:28 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:51:46 codeassembly [~givan@188.25.59.61] has joined #lisp 15:52:14 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:52:25 stassats: Hah! 15:52:57 hrm, pidgin seems like a nice app at the first few minutes 15:52:58 *Fare* releases cl-launch 2.906 for use with ASDF 2. 15:53:40 attila_lendvai: make sure to use the emacs gtk-keyboard theme, although it's rather lacking 15:53:45 will pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98538 15:53:51 dialtone_ [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:56 -!- dialtone_ [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:53:56 dialtone_ [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 15:53:56 Looks like scrubbing the control stack really does fix gencgc on ppc. Or, at least, fixes it enough that I haven't had a failure when trying to provoke it. 15:54:14 tcr: i've changed many key bindings in emacs, but i'll try and see. thanks! 15:54:24 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:55:21 attila_lendvai_ [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:55:23 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:56:20 -!- attila_lendvai_ [~ati@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:58:02 Electric_Brain [~gerard@75.77.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:59:22 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:59:23 Okay, patch is at http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/commitdiff/16b0ff8da54857298a9643c9014b44f7464256dc if anyone is curious. 15:59:25 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.180.187] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:59 nyef: congratulations 16:00:27 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:00:40 Thanks. 16:01:46 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-11-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:02:43 -!- hefnr [~root@ppp-58-9-116-147.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: fuck the skull of apple] 16:03:53 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.133.91] has joined #lisp 16:04:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~alendvai@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:05:44 And I think I'm not going to worry about the utter failure of core.test.sh when the gencgc heap verification stuff is enabled. 16:05:50 At least, not for right now. 16:06:06 Oh, but in practice I think for remove-if, one needs to scan from right to left, unless I am missing something. 16:07:06 [if count is supplied] 16:07:15 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:09:14 SBCL seems to go from right to left even when :count is nil for remove-if. 16:09:29 -!- tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 16:10:41 -!- pers [~user@45.sub-75-231-27.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:12:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:12:40 OsamaBinWOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:59 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@24-177-10-101.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:15:40 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.45.88] has quit [Quit: netytan] 16:15:57 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 16:16:04 hello 16:16:35 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:18:42 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:42 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:21:43 "of these elements only the leftmost or rightmost, depending on from-end, are deleted" 16:22:08 beach: once again, looks like from-end controls the traversal order 16:22:19 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-102-216.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 16:22:47 how does which one gets deleted imply traversal order? 16:22:56 Having used slime for a couple of days now, any suggestions on these apparent bugs? http://paste.lisp.org/display/98541 16:23:26 doesn't explicitly. but given the semantics, that traversal order makes things more efficient. 16:23:42 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:24:42 I s'pose you could do a first pass over every element, accumulate the results/count, then do a second pass, etc. maybe evaluating the predicate multiple times per element. 16:24:50 Devon: 1) it crashes? 16:25:01 would be a surprise, though 16:25:11 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441192.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 16:25:31 Devon: what made you think slime-compile-file would prompt for a file? 16:25:44 I think the CL standardizers where under the illusion that their underspecification afforded compiler authors more liberty for cleverness than it actually did. 16:25:59 it actually only gives liberty for stupidity. 16:27:10 -!- dialtone_ [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:27:27 Devon: and slime-eval-last-expression doesn't ignore package 16:30:02 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@bpcmat07.mat.ucm.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:30:38 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:31:15 nothing you listed is a bug, maybe that's not how you expect it to behave, but not bugs 16:33:05 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.229.72] has joined #lisp 16:33:34 stassats: 1) a user command should not rudely drop into the debugger when it could politely say the symbol is not defined. 16:33:42 pers [~user@45.sub-75-231-27.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:11 stassats: 2) is not a bug but it would be nice if ^U prefix caused it to prompt as other similar commands do. 16:34:55 debugger prompt is politely enough for me, C-u does a different thing with C-c C-k 16:35:00 netytan [~netytan@85.211.45.88] has joined #lisp 16:35:29 i agree, it would be good, but C-u is already taken 16:35:53 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:36:13 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:37:20 stassats: (describe *standard-output*) crashes too, is that polite? 16:37:36 *standard-output* is not a symbol 16:37:37 Fare: Yeah, but it occurred to me that since remove-if is consing anyway, if from-end is t, you could build a reversed copy of the list, and then count the removes as you traverse it and nreverse it. If there are few elements to be removed, then this would be quite acceptable. 16:38:00 and it doesn't crash, actually 16:38:21 beach: blit to a vector, and back to a list. 16:38:31 You can even use an internal pool for the vectors. 16:39:57 pkhuong: Yeah, I had similar thoughts. Certainly allocating a vector would be cheaper than allocating N cons cells. The question is how to know the size. 16:39:59 what if the test is expensive? 16:40:20 you mightn't want the test to be run more than COUNT times. 16:40:23 beach: geometrically growing vectors. 16:40:23 The the current SBCL method is very slow. 16:40:31 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 16:40:34 -!- xan_ [~xan@a81-84-164-63.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:40:50 stassats: describing a stream should drop into the debugger? I'm not getting the, uh, slime esthetics here 16:40:51 pkhuong: That would be a possibility. Not cheap, but reasonable complexity. 16:40:53 kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 16:40:53 Multiple such vectors, that is. 16:41:23 pkhuong: Though, really, using the stack would be the best. 16:41:38 I can have really long lists. 16:41:43 Devon: it doesn't drop into debugger for me, can you describe what you're doing? 16:41:46 monkeyface [~user@ares.nomads.utk.edu] has joined #lisp 16:41:50 The stack can be pretty big. 16:42:13 likely not big enough. 16:42:27 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.204.104] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:41 pkhuong: what would be the reason for that? 16:42:58 I doubt any compiler can represent the continuation as densely as a single word in a vector. 16:43:04 nunb [~nundan@59.178.195.248] has joined #lisp 16:43:09 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:43:17 Or even as densely as a cons cell (per activation record, that is). 16:43:38 pkhuong: One word and one bit would be enough. 16:43:55 beach: right. Show me any compiler that will. 16:44:00 stassats: I should have saved the debug window, it no longer crashes. 16:44:22 Oh, I thought the discussion was about what is possible. 16:45:13 beach: I try to avoid the SSC tarpit. 16:45:18 Devon: then the problem is fixed! 16:45:30 But yeah, two words would be reasonable. Same as cons cells but no GC needed afterwards. 16:45:31 stassats: except for the flakiness 16:45:59 the stack isn't a good place to put arbitrarily large data. 16:46:12 beach: only if you have nice support for huge stacks, which few implementations (of any language) do, even counting "stack-less" implementations. 16:46:16 Devon: patches are welcome 16:46:26 -!- kami`` is now known as kami` 16:46:26 for the real issues, though 16:46:27 an explicitly managed memory pool would be okay 16:46:54 but...how about just having a GC that isn't slow. :) 16:47:15 oh, and while you're at it, make it continuous, parallel, and all the other good buzzwords 16:47:28 foom: continuous? concurrent, you mean? 16:47:34 I guess an explicit pool would be fine. With a 64-bit architecture, it could even be huge. Most of it would be paged out most of the time. 16:47:51 pkhuong: yea, sorry, got my buzzwords mixed up. :) 16:47:57 Oh, but they would have to be per-thread :( Or else mutexed. 16:48:14 beach: compare-and-swap. 16:48:15 paging isn't fun. 16:48:32 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:48:45 you really don't want to allocate a huge pool of data that you touch rarely and is useless after you touch it, but you don't tell the OS to release. 16:48:50 Lots of good ideas. They now have to be digested... 16:49:16 foom: I want to try writing such a thing, but we tend to like our side effects in CL... and the techniques I want to play with are inspired by refcount (use XCHG to save inc/dec data in a buffer). 16:49:21 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 16:49:33 stassats: when the first (describe '*standard-output*) bombed, I quit the debugger and got the exact same output as the second time when it ran ok 16:49:52 pkhuong: Java should make a good example of lots of good GC strategies. 16:50:17 Read about that stuff in papers by david bacon (metronome), mostly. 16:50:31 Devon: keep in mind that DESCRIBE is implemented by your implementation 16:50:36 stassats: slime-repl seems to work better than comint except for putting asynchronous output in the wrong place. 16:50:40 yeah, I've read some papers about some of that stuff, but I think it'd be interesting to read the actual implementation 16:50:53 Or to try and code one up :) 16:50:55 (or rather, implementationS, since they have a bunch of different GCs you can choose from) 16:51:30 Devon: then don't use it 16:51:42 I think the biggest thing for SBCL, though, would be to remove the page-table trickery. 16:51:49 yeah. 16:51:49 stassats: don't use what? 16:51:52 though it has presentations, short-cut commands, lisp syntax commands 16:52:02 Devon: slime repl 16:52:13 stassats: I repeat, slime repl seems better than comint 16:52:28 stassats: why would I not use it 16:52:34 Devon: oh, then use it, of course! 16:52:55 stassats: the botching asych output bug is probably easy to fix 16:53:17 where should the output go? 16:53:24 -!- swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:53:28 foom: is it a thing from CMUCL days, or was it added during SBCL tenure? 16:53:43 Most of the random accesses in cheneygc or mark/sweep can be batched too, so random access can be a bit slow. (I've been looking at binary serialisation again, and that's basically a cheney in sort-of-CL) 16:54:22 Fare: looks old; certainly made a lot of sense on 32b platforms. 16:54:32 My bug report says what would be correct and what is incorrect. 16:55:04 after the repl? 16:55:38 repl prompt 16:56:42 as I wrote in the report, <> namely, before the prompt. 16:56:58 it would be confusing to hide the prompt 16:57:05 pinterface [~pinterfac@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:31 in my thinking, the prompt is not really part of the output 16:57:57 but rather belongs with the next input 16:58:14 that's right, i would've objected to the output after the prompt 16:58:18 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:59:01 but i can't really say that i object or support that it should be after the value 16:59:19 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:21 output should appear in the order it happened 16:59:40 value is not output 16:59:55 the value should appear after the input that produced it 17:00:34 the worst possible place to put asynch output is *inside* an unrelated interaction 17:00:37 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 17:00:51 either put it before the prior prompt or before the next prompt 17:01:16 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:18 Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-162.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:01:21 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-32-33.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:02:05 I say before the next prompt because it would be confusing to scramble the temporal order 17:02:40 i still don't see a strong argument for either way 17:02:54 LOL 17:03:07 Maybe you never output aysynchronously? 17:03:40 i do that all the time, never had an issue 17:04:15 It is (1) ugly (2) confusing. I consider that a strong argument against. 17:04:23 actually, i see an argument: i want to see values all the time, especially when i use it with * 17:05:02 That would be a strong argument against putting asynch output not in the repl 17:05:22 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:05:25 *Devon* oops, double negative 17:06:18 or a weak argument for putting asynch output before the prior prompt 17:06:31 but there is no plausible argument for what happens now 17:07:03 Devon: Laziness? 17:07:10 LOL 17:07:18 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:07:18 Apathy? 17:07:28 enough fun, I have to get back tow ork now 17:08:17 so *is* there an existing option to put asynch output in the minibuffer or a popup or anywhere but the repl? 17:09:26 i just don't see a point in changing for the sake of changing 17:09:30 Devon: slime-pprint-eval-last-expression 17:12:18 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:13:55 no transcript, doesn't size the buffer to the contents, not so hot but not too hard to fix but the list is getting awfully long 17:14:27 Devon: if you really want that change, write to slime-devel@, maybe you'll get to convince somebody else 17:15:03 no accounting for taste but that's a strong argument for a user option 17:15:11 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:15:12 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 17:15:55 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:17 I oppose random changes for the sake of adolescent baboon's need to piss on anything they find 17:16:28 however this is a change to fix lossage 17:16:29 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:13 thanks for listening 17:17:42 in your opinion, but not in mine, but there is still two people with commit rights who you can possibly convince 17:17:53 Fare: yeah, page table hacking is from cmucl. It was an option there, but if you turn it off you get to do a full GC every time. 17:18:04 who are the committers? 17:18:34 Fare: it's one of those things which seems like an elegant way to implement it, but in reality is a really bad way to implement it. 17:19:17 -!- Electric_Brain [~gerard@75.77.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:19:31 Devon: there are many, but only three who is active 17:19:34 what about dropping ^C^R to not clash with comint? 17:19:39 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:20:34 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:58 you can change it in your config 17:21:01 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:21:30 there is no way to guarantee that keybindings won't clash with those of your favorite package 17:21:30 *Fare* updates CCL, clears FASL cache, and it now works again. Pphew! 17:22:24 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:23:24 Devon: and C-c C-r is comint-mode binding, how can it clash with slime? 17:23:41 comint is the framework under many, many emacs packages, I'm surprised it was not used as the basis for slime repl 17:24:08 mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:24:13 *inferior-lisp* uses comint 17:24:21 however slime repl seems to do a couple of things better than comint 17:25:06 thus it is desirable for the slime repl to not clash with the various comint based repls 17:25:09 jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet7238.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #lisp 17:25:18 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:24 C-c C-r doesn't make much sense in slime-repl, though 17:26:25 first thing I did was (define-key slime-repl-mode-map [(control c) (control r)] #'slime-repl-show-output) 17:26:34 that makes sense 17:26:57 it's elegant assuming kernel traps are cheap, which they aren't 17:26:59 given my fingers are already microcoded to do that after years of other comint based repls 17:27:07 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:27:12 reminds me of the whole "microkernel" debacle. 17:27:14 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:27:31 Spice Lisp was kind of married to Mach, at the time. 17:28:32 (defun slime-repl-show-output () (interactive) (push-mark) (beginning-of-line) (slime-repl-previous-prompt)) 17:28:41 in case you were wondering 17:29:08 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:29:09 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:28 i use slime-repl-previous-prompt directly 17:30:20 which is also comint compatible 17:31:10 hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-116-147.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:33:48 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 17:33:52 hello 17:34:00 -!- ost` is now known as ost 17:34:18 *Xach* is pleased to find http://read-eval-print.blogspot.com/2010/04/blog-post.html 17:35:23 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:36:15 Sikander [~soemraws@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 17:36:22 -!- nurv [nurv@62.32.133.23] has quit [] 17:36:38 *Sikander* looks around. 17:36:49 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:53 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 17:36:57 Xach is big in Japan! 17:38:04 france also. 17:39:03 -!- Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-23-162.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:39:08 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Client Quit] 17:40:04 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 17:40:52 Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-6-209.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:41:07 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:41:58 -!- Edward_ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-6-209.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 17:42:08 wbraun [~wolfgang@p5B201A23.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:42:13 pers` [~user@45.sub-75-231-27.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:54 -!- pers [~user@45.sub-75-231-27.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:46 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:34 -!- nipra [~nipra@115.118.241.88] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:02 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.12.21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:04 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:50:23 A line of thought provoked by seeing a reference to "syntactic sugar": If LISTs are made up of ATOMs and LISTs, and MACROs transform LISTs, wouldn't LISTs be molecules and MACROs be enzymes? 17:52:57 Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-250.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:54:02 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:54:10 Work on chemical abstract machines has pushed the metaphor ever farther ;) 17:55:27 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:55:54 Lookout hackers, lisp has enzymes! 17:55:56 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:33 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:14 pookleblinky [~pooklebli@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:55 how about single stepping in slime? Googled for it but fled in terror because the animated ads make me feel unlucky. 18:00:11 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:00:18 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:54 doesn't work well in sbcl 18:02:10 CMUCL? 18:03:27 might be usable with (debug 3). 18:05:36 Devon, adblock plus and noscript are your friends 18:11:22 -!- rread [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:27 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-fqszjthyjujpcqse] has joined #lisp 18:11:52 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:43 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has joined #lisp 18:14:23 chicago_andy [~user@c-24-1-117-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:43 Silly idea of the day: if you want a shell string to contain lisp code without spaces, you can use: '#.`(x,`y,`z)' instead of '(x y z)' 18:14:47 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has joined #lisp 18:15:22 lol 18:15:25 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:45 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 18:15:49 is one silly idea per day the maximum quota? 18:16:07 because I'm trying to get sbcl to run decent enough on os 10.6 18:16:21 *Xach* uses that combination pretty frequently 18:16:27 I think I'm the only one to write bilingual shell/lisp scripts for production, anyway. 18:16:33 well, sbcl 1.0.24 18:16:38 Xach: ok, you prove me wrong 18:16:52 Xach: shell arrays are your friends 18:16:53 Fare: i use recent sbcl on recent os x, that is. 18:16:54 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:17:06 which sbcl xach? 18:17:31 chicago_andy: 1.0.35 18:17:47 hmm 18:17:59 I was having problems with 1.0.35 and clsql 18:18:12 where it would drop me into the ldb 18:19:07 *Xach* has not used clsql on it 18:19:08 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:19:29 anyhow, the version of 1.0.24 I compiled gives me a lot of undefined aliens 18:19:30 chicago_andy: are you using a relatively recent UFFI? 18:19:50 maybe 18:20:13 1.6.2 18:20:46 Anyone from SBCL team? 18:20:59 ASau: What's up? 18:21:13 Could you apply time-t patches for NetBSD? 18:21:22 I'm not on the team, I'm just a cheerleader, sorry. 18:21:24 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082C658.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:26 briefly back to the aliens for a sec, it's mostly libc stuff 18:21:34 so what did I forget when I built my sbcl? 18:22:46 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082F7A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:23:07 before I go re-invent a wheel, is there a gnumacs version of zmacs c-m-& 18:23:29 (cycles between COND IF AND forms) 18:24:38 you mean it converts IF to COND? 18:24:46 yes 18:25:17 there is redshank, it has something like redshank-condify 18:25:22 http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/redshank/ 18:27:18 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:14 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 18:29:36 any reason not to use 1.0.37 on mac? 18:29:55 chicago_andy: no. 18:30:54 last time I ever upgrade an OS 18:31:04 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-116-147.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:31:30 nurv [nurv@83.231.62.117] has joined #lisp 18:31:38 Hi. 18:32:26 -!- monkeyface [~user@ares.nomads.utk.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:33:18 hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-116-147.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 18:38:10 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:38:39 stassats: thanks for the link, maybe it'll help me reinvent c-m-& 18:40:16 oh crap 18:40:19 benny` [~benny@87.122.25.255] has joined #lisp 18:40:48 load-shared-object doesn't work from a source install 18:40:51 stassats: (and a b c) ==> (if (and a b) c) ==> (cond ((and a b) c)) 18:41:31 rather it ignores the path env variables that LD and dlopen use 18:41:42 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1E76.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:44:25 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:47:31 chicago_andy: what libraries are you trying to load with clsql? Are they built thru macports? 18:47:36 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:22 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441192.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:48:32 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet7238.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:00 I was trying to load clsql_uffi at runtime 18:49:20 and it's sbcl 1.0.37 from source, not from macports 18:50:05 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:50:36 dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:07 there is a bug somewhat related 18:51:13 533470 18:51:16 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:05 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 18:52:18 -!- dknight [~knight@adsl-71-142-81-218.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:53:17 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:53 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:23 -!- daniel__1 is now known as daniel 18:54:35 -!- clog [nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:54:37 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-250.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:55:29 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:38 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:45 -!- herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:56:00 herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:14 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:56:39 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:56:46 well I guess I could always go back to coding in php 18:56:59 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:42 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:58:56 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:03:03 chicago_andy: sounds like a plan. 19:03:05 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.45.88] has quit [Quit: netytan] 19:03:08 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:05:07 netytan [~netytan@85.211.45.88] has joined #lisp 19:05:08 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:06:08 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 19:07:00 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 19:07:02 *pinterface* ponders hoping for a clisp GC bug. On the one hand, fixing it would clearly be outside my responsibility. On the other hand, I'm stuck with the diagnostic work regardless. 19:08:22 the important thing is to keep all appropriate theories in mind in your diagnostic work 19:10:34 back 19:10:38 php wasn't that fun 19:11:27 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has joined #lisp 19:12:55 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.248.192] has quit [Client Quit] 19:15:15 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 19:17:55 gah 19:18:30 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:48 and the appropriate meta-theories to locate the former 19:23:01 speaking of which -- who has studied the theory of staged computation? 19:23:43 I hope that involves dramatic reenactments of low level cpu instructions 19:23:47 Hrm... The bug-353 test is failing on the undefined-function-frame coming up as the x86oid version instead of the everywhere-else version, and the bug-346 test is giving a horribly, horribly truncated backtrace. 19:24:50 jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet7238.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #lisp 19:24:54 -!- Fruktsoda [~EchoB@unaffiliated/fruktsoda] has quit [Quit: Bye bye Kansas!] 19:25:25 bootstrapping asdf is more complex than should be - I hope asdf 2 is soon out AND adopted by implementations. 19:27:05 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 19:27:11 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:27:30 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:27:53 Fare: there's also issue of various incompatible extensions written into ASDF files. 19:29:13 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has joined #lisp 19:31:13 p_l: this ain't gonna be solved by ASDF 2. 19:31:25 maybe by ASDF 3 or XCVB. 19:32:07 but not WERT? 19:32:49 whoa, I thought XCVB was a wisecrack 19:33:42 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-102-216.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:34:43 It'll be ZERT and come from France 19:35:54 mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:37:36 Devon: or  and come from japan? ;P 19:38:08 *pinterface* was gonna go with @#$% 19:38:25 I use that one all the time 19:38:30 *p_l* imagines that... (||: 'hu.dwim.perec) 19:38:49 gah, should have used || on the function name as well 19:38:50 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:40:27 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:41:12 pinterface:  would also fit 19:41:17 <_3b``> p_l: why, is your lisp broken? :p 19:41:35 _3b``: no, but sometimes transport encoding mucks stuff up :P 19:42:00 I only had that issue once, though 19:42:12 <_3b``> well, not like it will be more usable with quoted mucked up stuff :) 19:42:16 :P 19:42:42 still, I like that package name xD 19:43:37 £594.98 <--- for used On Lisp ... 19:44:14 jeebus 19:44:52 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-179-20.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:44:55 that's alsmost as much as I paid for my motorcycle 19:45:01 Joreji [~thomas@75-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:45:03 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 19:45:08 p_l: oh my god for a downloadable book? :D 19:45:23 wbraun: for a used copy of it, even 19:45:32 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Quit: I'll be back! B)] 19:45:53 phnglui [~phnglui@cpe-76-181-155-131.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:46 I sell it to you for 700 EUR 19:47:30 I should dig out my copy 19:50:43 Good evening. 19:50:51 Krystof: any news? 19:51:12 iPac [~bubble@p54AA52FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:53 I understand that it sounds annoying, still I want to get it before release. 19:52:06 yes! The European Lisp Symposium 2010 Website has been overhauled; it's still not too late to register 19:52:27 I have a decent panel topic and a full programme; I've begun organizing the associated journal special issue 19:52:36 pity that I won't manage to be there :/ 19:52:42 LukeL_ [unknown@unaffiliated/lukel] has joined #lisp 19:53:10 I have written a course proposal for my institution, brainstormed three grant proposals today, given a supervision to a PhD student, discussed Masters-level provision and integration with the charitable sector 19:53:56 sounds like a busy day 19:54:23 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178224000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 19:55:19 ... led a group meeting, looked over a project student's final report 19:55:21 &c 19:55:38 so, to answer the actual question: sbcl work has not been anywhere near the list of possible things to do today 19:55:54 rpg [~rpg@fw.bryant.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:09 hence, no automatically-generated message indicating a cvs commit of the patch that makes working on NetBSD-current possible 19:56:13 I see. 19:56:31 sorry 19:56:43 Three little patches ;) 19:56:55 oh, really? I'd have committed the wrong thing if I had had time, then 19:56:58 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet7238.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:11 I can provide links to plain text files. ;) 19:57:28 the first moment I got when I wasn't firefighting was 17:20. At 17:30 I had to leave to get home in time for my wife to be able to leave 19:57:49 I'd had about 5 minutes between getting my daughter to sleep and saying "I should dig out my copy" 19:58:21 links to tested plain text patches by e-mail would minimize the chances of me making errors tomorrow 19:59:12 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:03 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:01:41 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:02:42 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:02:50 Krystof: :) 20:03:14 maden [~maden@dsl-158-121.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 20:03:19 I'm going to assume that that was something nice and soothing :-) 20:03:35 (and not "haha you're living in interesting times" or something like that) 20:04:12 tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:05:24 Krystof: close enough ;) loosely: 'thanks for all your hard work' but it's faster to say in japanese 20:06:00 if not faster (for me) to understand ;-) 20:06:05 thank you 20:06:36 *nyef* suddenly realizes how nice it is that he's back to dealing with cosmetic stuff like backtrace test failures. 20:06:50 my self-inflicted exile from development of most kinds will, I hope, end sometime after els2010 20:07:07 Krystof: And may the event be a success! 20:07:08 I shouldn't be grumpy at something which is basically my own fault 20:07:53 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.45.88] has quit [Quit: netytan] 20:08:02 nevertheless, I am irrational enough that being grumpy seems reasonable :-/ 20:08:23 This is an excellent time to have more children. 20:08:53 haha 20:09:05 Rates have never been lower! 20:09:54 You'd have to be crazy to pass up such a deal 20:11:07 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 20:12:25 *Fare* finds that antifuchs might have been a little too eager to refactor the way ASDF deals with dependencies, resulting in sbcl contribs not loading properly after poiu is loaded... fixing... 20:13:14 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 20:16:38 -!- LukeL_ [unknown@unaffiliated/lukel] has quit [Quit: Good bye] 20:17:21 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:17:45 myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 20:19:27 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:20:03 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 20:21:51 Slime hung, can I get it back without losing my lisp world? 20:21:54 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:22:30 nyef: maybe you'll deal with build failures and spare some work from Krystof? 20:22:37 Bah, nuke 'em all 20:22:44 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:24 -!- hdurer__ is now known as hdurer 20:23:40 *nyef* is currently dealing with linux/ppc build failures, and is not going to be committing anything until SBCL is out of code freeze. 20:24:15 That's 3 small tested patches. 20:24:38 -!- hdurer [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:24:43 OmniMancer2 [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:24:44 Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725400.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:24:58 is there a format directive that does essentially what ~r does, but like so: 25th 20:25:00 hdurer [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:01 ? 20:25:12 ~:r 20:25:18 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-116-147.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:25:46 -!- hdurer is now known as hdurer`` 20:26:06 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:27:08 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:13 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:27:52 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 20:29:14 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:29:16 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:29:22 -!- OmniMancer2 [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:30:13 Shaftoe_: I'm not sure there is, but you could probably do something involving ~/ . 20:30:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:31:18 nyef: thanks. It's not so important that I'll dedicate more than the 15 minutes I've already done searching for this. 20:31:21 OmniMancer2 [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:31:23 I'll just use ~d =) 20:32:03 I think PCL contains an example 20:32:09 Joreji [~thomas@75-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:32:09 involving ~[~] 20:32:11 OmniMancer3 [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:32:48 How do you persuade ~[~] to take the argument mod 10? 20:33:38 Hrm... Worse than that, isn't it? Since 1st, but 11th, and 21st, and 3rd, but 13th, and 23rd. 20:33:56 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:34:09 ah well, it probably just worked on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, nth 20:34:11 xan_ [~xan@a81-84-155-234.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:34:26 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:35:19 LukeL_ [unknown@unaffiliated/lukel] has joined #lisp 20:35:46 -!- OmniMancer2 [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:36:27 -!- OmniMancer3 [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:38:11 yah. it's not something worth re-coding over and over. 20:38:42 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:41:24 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:34 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:42:55 So you need to take quotient and remainder for division by 10, do one thing for quotient of 1 and another otherwise. 20:43:19 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:27 ok, got it. Now releasing a fix to POIU... 20:44:42 -!- Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:45:04 -!- Shaftoe_ [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096725400.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe_] 20:45:07 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:24 Devon [~devon@c-98-216-157-52.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:36 still can't get auto login with m-x irc 20:46:46 gonzojive_ [~red@c-67-188-5-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:11 Devon: regarding the lock up, use sbcl head 20:50:14 clog [nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 20:52:19 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:16 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0184-85-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:54:53 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 20:55:31 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-153-248.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:55:41 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:07 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:56:14 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0184-85-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:50 prxq [~mommer@g227018113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:06 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755c52.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:39 Intensity [bVF8pv8uhe@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 20:59:54 synthase [~synthase@adsl-146-227-141.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:51 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:25 hi 21:02:10 -!- codeassembly [~givan@188.25.59.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:02:26 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:50 -!- iPac [~bubble@p54AA52FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:03:59 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:05:03 sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has joined #lisp 21:05:27 I'll lope along with CMUCL thanks 21:05:50 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:07:21 didn't know its history came back to a cycle 21:08:49 so is the best fix for missing aliens from darwin libc in sbcl to do a load-shared-object of libc.dylib? 21:08:49 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:09:40 history darwin aliens cycle, strange day 21:10:02 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:28 I blame the humanists 21:13:14 -!- LukeL_ [unknown@unaffiliated/lukel] has quit [Quit: Good bye] 21:13:45 I really need to learn more about what makes sbcl go internall 21:13:47 y 21:14:14 turtles 21:14:33 to make madnificent's day even stranger 21:15:00 what's next, C questions in #lisp? 21:15:27 been there done that 21:15:46 heh, i've found it one of the better places to ask C questions tbh 21:16:35 (this doesn't mean we all should go asking C questions of course, just that when i've been in need #lisp has come through) 21:17:30 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:55 well now that you mention it... 21:18:43 actually, has anybody made any tools for running sbcl as a daemon for the linux/bsd crowd? 21:19:36 Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-37.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:19:39 whoops, that didn't work 21:19:42 hello ldb 21:21:22 chicago_andy: that's not hard 21:21:55 hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-116-147.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 21:21:59 yeah 21:22:14 figured I'd ask before going and doing it again 21:22:44 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:46 Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:11 fork, reinit the io streams, destroy eath 21:23:13 earth 21:23:44 and signal parent 21:25:54 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:26:49 well, that might cause a race condition though with the whole destroy earth thing 21:27:12 has anyone checked out clbuild and tried to compile sbcl from it in the past day or so? It fails here 21:27:19 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-248-197.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:29 even after checking out the latest clbuild and placing it in a fresh directory 21:27:39 chicago_andy: a race condition? 21:28:01 well, yeah... what if the earth goes away before the parent is signaled? 21:28:04 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:28:45 parent returns non-zero 21:29:09 dknight [~knight@adsl-71-142-81-218.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:17 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:37 hi guys, is there a tutorial on using Slime from Emacs on Windows that connects to sbcl on a Linux computer? is it actually possible? remote editing and remote sliming? 21:30:05 huh 21:30:05 madnificent: what's fail? 21:30:20 puchacz: sure no problem at all 21:30:28 tcr: cool 21:30:46 might be a toolchain issue because you usually connect through ssh tunnels 21:31:00 yay, once poiu is fixed, xcvb passes all tests again! Releasing .510! 21:31:07 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:10 so don't ask me how to do that on windows other than install cygwin and hope for the best 21:31:11 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:31:34 tcr: ssh is how I normally connect to this Linux machine 21:31:39 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:41 tcr: and yes, I have cygwin 21:32:00 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:32:06 well in that case, if I recall correctly, the slime manual briefly discusses the topic 21:32:21 tcr: ok, I'll have a look. chrs 21:32:38 preferably look at in the doc/ directory of your slime checkout 21:32:47 oki 21:32:52 failed to find the TRUENAME of /home/madnificent/.fasls/sbcl-1.0.37.73-linux-x86-64/home/madnificent/tmp/clbuild/clbuild/target/lib/sbcl/sb-bsd-sockets/constants.lisp-temp 21:32:53 the manual on the website may still be out of date 21:33:27 so, what's the easiest way to run an external program across lisps? 21:33:28 tcr: either clbuild is broken, or sbcl fails to compile with my gentoo-built sbcl 21:33:37 bonus points for something that is already in clbuild (: 21:33:40 -!- sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has quit [Quit: sellout] 21:33:48 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-178-1.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:34:19 ssteinerX [~ssteinerX@c-71-234-137-96.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:24 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:34:29 I found external-program, but that hasn't been touched in 3.5 years, and not much else fits the bill... I would very much like to remain implementation-independent... 21:34:34 antifuchs: trivial-shell? 21:34:45 antifuchs: deepfire tried to write a run-program wrapper, last thing I remember about it was curse and grief 21:34:58 ah yes (: 21:35:09 trivial-shell seems like it could work 21:35:51 or I could go the other way around, and use bordeaux-threads for what I want to do (don't ask (-:) 21:36:03 guess that would be the smaller of two evils (wow!) 21:36:05 "I know, I'll use a trivial-foo library" 21:36:21 well what do you want to do? 21:36:34 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 21:36:56 All you do is inherently suspect since that cucumber incident 21:37:27 tcr: I want to test my test suite adapter, of course 21:37:59 that means I need to run the test suite adapter inside the test suite adapter, which is non-easy, as it needs to open a socket and listen on it 21:38:01 curse, grief, and oh noes :) 21:38:03 hence the threads 21:38:11 well, it's not too horrible yet. 21:38:26 LukeL_ [unknown@unaffiliated/lukel] has joined #lisp 21:38:40 pick two, get the other one for free 21:39:23 seriously, it's not bad. 21:40:13 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:40:37 I suffer from sleep deprivation 21:40:48 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:41:21 kwinz_ [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 21:41:31 Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-11-147.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:42:35 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-37.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:43:35 -!- prxq [~mommer@g227018113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:58 antifuchs, btw, the reason you couldn't understand ASDF dependencies, is because ASDF dependencies are BROKEN. 21:44:11 fine 21:44:17 sbcl wins 21:44:41 antifuchs, do you need advanced interaction with such programs, or just "run it and slurp its output back" ? 21:44:51 guess I'll have to wait awhile until dlopen is fixed for 10.6 21:45:15 antifuchs, threads and sigchld handling can be "interesting", btw. 21:45:20 Fare: I believe I understood asdf dependencies far too well for my taste (: 21:45:24 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:27 -!- dknight [~knight@adsl-71-142-81-218.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:41 Fare: yeah, I'm going with bordeaux threads and "just" a usocket listener in the background (: 21:45:46 dknight [~knight@adsl-71-142-81-218.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:32 and they asdf deps are really broken. 21:46:39 snowbeard [~user@63.82.23.200] has joined #lisp 21:46:42 madnificent, are you using asdf-binary-locations? 21:46:50 starting with the way components are looked up at run time from their names 21:46:54 (blech) 21:46:55 madnificent, you should be using the latest ASDF 2 instead - it handles that crap. 21:47:42 antifuchs, at least now we're using gethash, not a linear search :) 21:47:51 hah 21:47:58 that may or may not be an improvement (: 21:48:20 Fare: doesn't clbuild include everything? 21:48:23 it is a DEFINITE improvement with the humongous system generated by asdf-dependency-grovel for QRES :) 21:48:24 at least independent units get more random orderings, I guess (: 21:48:31 haha 21:48:34 that, I'm sure (: 21:48:40 Fare: in either case, it does try to reference the correct fasl, so I think it should be in there... 21:48:43 processing time down from 150 seconds to a few. 21:48:58 nice (: 21:48:58 -!- LukeL_ [unknown@unaffiliated/lukel] has quit [Quit: Good bye] 21:49:06 it is strange that it loads a .lisp-temp 21:49:37 madnificent, sb-bsd-sockets should be using a precompiled thing - especially as far as constant groveling is concerned 21:50:14 I think the sbcl contribs aren't tailored to work with output translation at all - ASDF 2 properly disables them for SBCL contribs. 21:50:23 peterbb [~peterbb@ves1-1x-dhcp356.uio.no] has joined #lisp 21:50:43 why would they allow me to compile and download sbcl from within clbuild and -not- make it work? 21:50:57 because they are not up to date? 21:51:07 so it is an issue with clbuild? 21:51:25 the .fasls/ indicates you're probably using asdf-binary-locations. Don't. Use ASDF 2 instead. 21:51:38 again, it is an issue with clbuild? 21:51:44 it's an issue with ABL 21:51:46 don't use ABL 21:51:58 D O N O T U S E A B L 21:52:01 so it's not an issue which clbuild should/will fix? 21:52:23 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host254-107-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:52:45 I use clbuild and it doesn't use ABL - so you're doing something wrong somewhere that enables ABL. 21:53:06 how can clbuild do that? It only uses it's own configuration, no? 21:53:19 it's a fresh clbuild darcs get 21:53:25 are you using the os's sbcl or the one built by clbuild? 21:53:43 dcrawford: it fails to load the sbcl I've built with clbuild 21:53:56 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-102-216.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 21:54:07 konr [~user@201.82.133.249] has joined #lisp 21:54:07 -!- ssteinerX [~ssteinerX@c-71-234-137-96.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:54:08 first thing, remove abl. 21:54:25 Fare: I don't know what it is and I will not risc killing my normal sbcl instance 21:54:47 your life, dude 21:54:52 Fare: certainly not if I don't know what it will do and if it can/will be fixed in clbuild. Even less if I can't figure out how to change it for clbuild itself instead of for the whole system 21:55:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:56:45 Joreji [~thomas@75-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:56:52 s/risc/risk/ (that doesn't even qualify as a typo) 21:57:14 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:57:18 Watch it be in ~/.sbclrc or something. 21:57:37 -!- debiandebian_ [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:57:49 nyef: clbuild doesn't load my .sbclrc 21:57:54 or precompiled in a previous big sbcl image from clbuild -- either way, just you stop using it. 21:58:53 Fare: I don't know how to stop using it (nor what it does) 21:59:05 anyone sees anything wrong with http://paste.lisp.org/display/98567 ? 21:59:08 could i do this better 22:00:13 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:00:49 -!- rpg [~rpg@fw.bryant.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:01:55 xristos: do you have to intern the symbol? 22:02:16 xristos: nvm, dumb me 22:02:34 xristos: doesn't look bad to me 22:03:59 madnificent, it messes with your asdf output pathnames, preventing you from loading SBCL contribs. 22:04:51 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:41 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:06:10 madnificent, you can also tell it to stop its evil ways with (setf asdf::*source-to-target-mappings* '(("/" nil))) or some such. 22:06:56 Fare: right, that concludes it 22:07:31 *Fare* shrugs 22:08:19 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:00 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:09:12 should clbuild override that path by default? Given that it should work on multiple platforms and doesn't necessarily compile sbcl correctly? 22:11:35 clbuild won't use abl unless you tell it to. Don't tell it to. 22:11:47 Fare: I did _not_ tell it to use ABS 22:11:48 ABL 22:11:54 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:11:55 apparently it uses the system's asdf 22:11:58 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:12:05 then why does it compile stuff in ~/.fasls/ ? 22:12:18 because it uses the system's asdf instead of its own 22:12:26 what asdf version are you using? (or #+asdf2 (asdf:asdf-version) #+asdf :old) 22:12:43 xristos: http://paste.lisp.org/display/98567#1 .. shorter, not necessarily better 22:12:48 it is a fresh clean clbuild download in a new folder... so there's nothing which I've instructed clbuild to do (hence my surprise) 22:13:15 xristos: I would however put the first :collect on its own line 22:13:17 sbcl won't redirect binaries if you don't tell it. 22:13:36 xristos: and the Generic errors comment in its right place 22:13:44 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-58-9-116-147.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:13:52 Fare: as I said, clbuild uses the system's asdf instead of using its own (wherever its own asdf may be) 22:14:02 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-67-188-5-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 22:14:07 Fare: it uses /usr/share/common-lisp/systems/asdf-binary-locations.asd (which is likely what it shouldn't use) 22:14:32 Fare: I can't get a cleaner clbuild than making a new directory and saying darcs get http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/clbuild 22:14:39 what is "the system's asdf" ? what is "the system" ? 22:15:05 Fare: the system is non-asdf, it is a gentoo-based system and it is the one in /usr/share/common-lisp/systems/asdf-binary-locations.asd 22:15:15 I don't see why clbuild uses that one 22:15:15 you can clbuild compile-implementation sbcl or some such 22:15:28 Fare: as said before, that is what made it all fail 22:15:38 it is clbuilds asdf which fails, not the system's 22:15:47 clbuild's sbcl (sorry) 22:15:56 insert the above setf line in your .sbclrc 22:16:03 it doesn't load my .sbclrc 22:16:15 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:17:10 at this point, you should paste a failing session. 22:17:40 Fare: I've done that yesterday too, let me paste 22:18:33 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0184-85-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:19:05 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:19:43 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:20 Slime repl wedged again, should I try m-x slime-reset 22:22:17 -!- peterbb [~peterbb@ves1-1x-dhcp356.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:22:30 mad pasted "clbuild's asdf fails?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98568 22:22:32 -!- myrkraverk [~johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:22:42 Fare: ^ 22:22:47 Hmm, in a Break, sldb-toggle-details fails to show all locals. 22:23:05 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:23:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@a81-84-155-234.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:23:36 do you have a /etc/sbcl*rc ? 22:23:48 what is causing the a-b-l to be loaded? 22:23:50 cmucl 22:23:56 (break) 22:23:58 probably not clbuild 22:24:06 ? 22:24:27 Fare: as asked before: doesn't clbuild contain anything on its own, why would it load something from the system? 22:24:48 Fare: (and yes, it's there and it's likely ruining the party) 22:25:01 sbcl loads from /etc/sbcl*rc and ~/.sbclrc unless instructed otherwise 22:25:11 madnificent: download a proper binary release of SBCL and use that to build sbcl via clbuild 22:25:13 Fare: it certainly doesn't load ~/.sbclrc 22:25:14 I don't know that clbuild tells it otherwise 22:25:16 cmucl. not sbcl. 22:25:21 how do you know? 22:25:38 did you sh -x clbuild to see what options it passes to sbcl ? 22:25:58 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 22:26:01 Fare: because loading my ~/.sbclrc takes ages as it skims some resources. It neither shows the output it should and it loads way to fast 22:26:17 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@82-171-137-254.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 22:26:18 Fare: are you talking to me? 22:26:23 mad: instead of guessing, can you trace? 22:26:34 Fare: I haven't, and I wouldn't know what to search for 22:26:43 Fare: however, it is in /etc/sbclrc 22:26:56 then do what I say: sh -x ./clbuild lisp 22:27:07 Fare: the trace should tell me why it loads that file? 22:27:07 cat /etc/sbcl*rc 22:28:04 Fare: yes, that's the evil one 22:28:07 <_3b``> Devon: to interrupt a loop, try C-c C-c in repl, or C-c C-b in a .lisp buffer if you ran the code from there (or C-g a few times if it is actually slime and not the lisp stuck in a loop) 22:28:21 echo '#+sbcl (sb-debug:backtrace)' >> asdf-binary-locations.asd 22:28:27 <_3b``> Devon: sbcl and cmucl tend to optimize away locals, compile with debug 3 to retain them 22:28:28 Fare: now I wonder how I can make clbuild ignore it (sh -x clbuild lisp will help me) 22:28:33 *madnificent* didn't know of sh -x 22:28:47 remove/clear the bastard file. You don't need it. 22:28:59 eastwind [~seg@adsl-99-29-144-168.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:11 Fare: I need it for my system's sbcl, which I use too 22:29:23 it loads it unless you supply --no-sysinit to sbcl (or --sysinit /dev/null) 22:29:45 so I should supply --no-sysinit to clbuild, that's an easy one :) 22:29:48 then conditionalize the loading based on your using the system's sbcl 22:30:09 a sbclrc that breaks some sbcl's is bad. 22:31:40 Fare: it only breaks it because the binary files are in the wrong location 22:32:59 gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.51.194] has joined #lisp 22:33:35 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 22:33:46 it breaks because your /etc/sbclrc is wrong 22:34:11 Fare: I see why it fails now, thanks! 22:34:28 also try to (sb-ext:posix-getenv "SBCL_HOME") and see whether it's correctly set. 22:34:40 If not, it could be that clbuild is doing something wrong, too. 22:34:48 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:34:58 Fare: no, that's right 22:35:09 Fare: I still don't understand why clbuild loads the system's init though 22:35:10 btw, do you know who's responsible for packaging lisp on gentoo? 22:35:18 it does the right thing 22:35:21 no, fe[nl]ix maybe? 22:35:37 the system's init is meant to be used by all sbcl's, not just the one that comes with the system. 22:35:52 if the system configuration is wrong, the distributor fucked up. 22:36:04 so you should be reporting a bug 22:36:24 and suggesting he use the latest asdf 2 instead of abl 22:36:44 *madnificent* will not likely suggest what he doesn't know 22:36:56 then put me in contact with him 22:36:57 Fare: until SBCL doesn't officially move to ASDF2 I won't switch gentoo to use it in the rest of the implementations 22:37:09 Fare: any idea where that's documented? I've always seen distributers as some entity claiming "use our stuff and it will work" 22:37:15 fe[nl]ix, are you the gentoo lisp packager? 22:37:21 yes 22:37:32 *madnificent* formally thanks fe[nl]ix 22:38:00 fe[nl]ix, too many negations 22:38:48 Fare: once SBCL uses ASDF2, I'll convert the other implementations in the Gentoo repository to ASDF2 too 22:39:48 ok 22:40:08 hopefully next month. 22:40:16 Generic CL question: is (memq (car (pathname-directory *)) '(:absolute :relative)) guaranteed true? 22:40:51 Devon: memq? 22:40:54 no - it can be an error, too 22:41:04 the pathname-directory can be a string instead of a list. 22:41:12 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:41:51 Well, that turned out to be a dumb mistake on my part. Remove can share structure, so the nconcs I assumed were safe ended up creating a circular list. 22:41:56 courtesy of 1960's one-level-of-directories filesystems. 22:42:21 nconc is EVIL. 22:42:29 rule of thumb: never use nconc 22:42:34 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:39 rpg: hi! 22:42:47 madnificent: memq is in a implementation (member item list :test #'eq) (don't remember which) 22:42:51 rpg: I'm right, you disagree with me, ergo you're wrong. 22:42:52 I (nconc (read) ...) all the time 22:42:57 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.195.248] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:43:17 I only use it when I've got a fresh list! Except when I'm wrong about having a fresh list, apparently. 22:43:23 wbraun: ah, cool 22:43:29 Fare: Strange I didn't think of that! 22:43:30 ;-) 22:43:31 nunb [~nundan@59.178.196.134] has joined #lisp 22:44:17 fe[nl]ix, it might be good taste to conditionalize the /etc/sbclrc in the meantime 22:44:36 in what sense ? 22:44:53 test whether you're using the system's sbcl, otherwise don't load ABL 22:45:40 *Fare* is freezing asdf 2 tomorrow, hopefully to be included in the May release of SBCL. 22:46:06 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:50:21 there is no package linux in the clbuild-compiled clisp -- how do I get it? 22:52:11 -!- pers` [~user@45.sub-75-231-27.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:53:52 (or (not (pathnamep *)) (not (listp (pathname-directory *))) (memq (car (pathname-directory *)) '(:absolute :relative))) is always true in GCL - time to get a real infoized hyperspec, this GCL manual is deceiving me 22:55:36 quodlibetor [~user@ool-45723726.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:31 proqesi [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 22:58:35 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-21-85.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:03 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:08:59 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:11:15 -!- wbraun [~wolfgang@p5B201A23.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:12:31 jamu [~dasilvj@unaffiliated/dasilvj] has joined #lisp 23:13:21 -!- jamu [~dasilvj@unaffiliated/dasilvj] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:32 Fare, I really /do/ think it's a mistake to ship with the system-dependencies, because of the gawky way we process them. 23:13:45 how gawkier than usual is it? 23:13:51 jamu [~dasilvj@unaffiliated/dasilvj] has joined #lisp 23:14:07 antifuchs, still there? do you remember why you need a special traverse for parallel operations? 23:15:29 -!- jamu [~dasilvj@unaffiliated/dasilvj] has quit [Client Quit] 23:15:37 jamu [~dasilvj@unaffiliated/dasilvj] has joined #lisp 23:15:54 and I intend to release ASDF 2, better documentation or not. 23:16:17 it would be *nice* if it were better documented - but considering it's not a regression, I won't count that as a blocker. 23:23:59 Fare: It's way gawkier, because we have to do a two phase parse of the defsystem now. 23:24:49 Fare: I'll send an email to the list to share this, but I don't think that this is a problem with the version feature. This is a special case of James' point about packages in defsystems. 23:24:51 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@171.66.51.194] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 23:25:13 And what this /really/ is, is that we don't have a good way to get around the fact that the defsystem form goes through the lisp reader. 23:26:31 The problem isn't :version, the problem is that to substitute stuff into the defsystem, you have to do it in the reader, which means that we can't do the defsystem dependencies and then just process the initargs. 23:26:38 The initargs would be broken in the reader. 23:28:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:28:20 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 23:31:57 Fare: Short writeup sent to the mailing list. 23:32:31 -!- jamu [~dasilvj@unaffiliated/dasilvj] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:34:49 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:36:40 Fare: wrt documentation, it's easy to provide a documentation patch or point people to better docs on the web. I agree that the documentation is not a blocker. 23:37:00 palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:5ab0:35ff:fe78:6749] has joined #lisp 23:40:00 how is it a two phase parse? 23:40:09 we already had a two-phase parse, btw. 23:42:15 I don't understand why there's any more reader issue than with any lisp code. 23:43:12 certainly, I've used a lot of variants of (defun pcall (pkg sym &rest args) (apply (find-symbol (string sym) pkg) args)) 23:43:18 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:19 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 23:43:23 same could be used in asdf 23:44:41 -!- chicago_andy [~user@c-24-1-117-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:46:50 Thomas_H [~Thomas_H@d207-6-77-199.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:57 -!- snowbeard [~user@63.82.23.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:49:33 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:49:55 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 23:51:50 *Fare* makes operate a gf so poiu can hook on it instead of reimplementing it. 23:52:53 *Fare* removes the traverse method of poiu - if you want a traverse that doesn't check operation-done-p, you can have an optional override :around operation-done-p, just like I'm now doing with traverse. 23:56:36 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 23:57:17 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:57:53 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-22-192-228.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:58:52 Sikander [~soemraws@5356EFC5.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 23:59:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]