00:00:01 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:01:49 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:56 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 00:02:10 sohum: have the handler-bind inside the new thread 00:03:26 Xach: would I just be able to stick it inside with-thread? I think that'll work... 00:03:34 -!- jockc [~jockc@dsl-206-251-71-75.dynamic.linkline.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:03:51 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.201.196] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:05:23 Xach: excellent, it does. 00:05:56 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 00:06:07 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-159-177.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:06:46 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:25 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [] 00:07:31 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 00:07:40 Xach: thanks for helping! 00:08:06 -!- rread_ [~rread@63.204.222.2] has quit [Quit: rread_] 00:08:58 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 00:09:19 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:09:58 I want to embedd lisp into a c++ application. I found this http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/ this http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Foreign-Function-Interface.html this http://ecls.sourceforge.net/download.html this http://www.newlisp.org/ this http://www.cliki.net/asdf this http://uffi.b9.com/ But the question is, what would you recommend as lisp implementation? SBCL or ECL or CLISP or CMUCL or openMCL (or are there 00:09:58 still better ones??) i'm really confused at that point 00:10:14 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:47 ECL 00:11:04 -!- saikat [~saikat@ppp-71-139-198-221.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 00:11:06 thanks 00:12:14 http://ecls.wikispaces.com/Simple+embedded+usage 00:12:34 -!- seamus-android [~alistair@host86-183-193-143.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:16:05 maden_ [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:16:27 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-19-210.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:17:34 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.59] has joined #lisp 00:21:03 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:21:14 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:23:13 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 00:24:37 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:25:23 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:27 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 00:25:31 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@63.108.122.113] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:26:14 my compile ops look good, but my load-op are way off 00:27:41 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:33:40 konr1 [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has joined #lisp 00:35:24 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AFCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:35:43 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 00:36:34 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:55 -!- konr [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:39:49 OK. Now I understand the crazy append... 00:39:58 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 00:41:44 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 00:43:26 saikat [~saikat@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:00 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-239-38.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 00:46:15 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:47:39 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:48:08 fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:24 compile compile compile... coffeeee time 00:50:26 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:21 is there some sort of "What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Exception Handling" paper? an exhaustive paper on the subjet matter, addresssing unithreaded, multithreaded, and distributed apps? like Wilson's paper on GC. 00:51:50 this comes close, http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ExceptionPatterns 00:51:54 Wilson wrote a paper called "What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Garbage Collection"? 00:52:41 Uniprocessor Garbage Collection Techniques 00:52:42 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:09 there are a few stellar papers that summarize an entire field in 50 pages 00:53:09 Yeah, yeah. Not as funny. 00:53:41 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:53:45 saikat [~saikat@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:24 the whole c2.com wiki needs a massive [citation needed] stamp 00:54:43 http://www.objectarchitects.de/arcus/cookbook/exhandling/index.htm 00:54:43 -!- maden_ [~maden@modemcable068.120-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:22 that seems to do it, actually 00:55:24 there is a "What Every Lisper Should Know About Conditions" paper 00:55:44 adeht: nikodemus' IIRC 00:55:45 saikat_ [~saikat@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:50 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html 00:55:58 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:55:58 -!- saikat_ is now known as saikat 00:57:48 adeht: excellent! 00:58:11 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:58:13 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:39 wow I heard of ecl, tried to compile it and it acually successed :D 00:58:50 saikat [~saikat@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:07 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 00:59:10 adeht: what i had in mind was more elaborate; backtrace, input recording, audit trail, persistant restarts, transactitions, etc. 01:00:11 fusss: Don't forget the "handler-case + resignal" model for C++ exceptions. :-P 01:00:27 some of these don't have anything to do with "exceptions" or conditions 01:01:05 nyef: it's also useful in Lisp 01:01:19 nyef: which is one reason why error/signal can take a condition object 01:02:17 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:02:32 iirc Dylan also had an interesting variation on conditions, where restarts are associated with a particular condition type 01:02:32 OK, got it. 01:02:39 qbomb [~qbomb@74.112.107.99] has joined #lisp 01:02:56 adeht: Yes, but you have to work to get that behavior in Lisp, whereas you -can't turn it off- in C++. 01:03:09 And it also interferes with any non-unwinding use of the exception system. 01:03:31 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:03:48 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:03 nyef: hmm, maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "handler-case + resignal".. I was think about the resignal part (i.e. throw; in C++) 01:04:10 *thinking 01:04:26 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-202-69.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:04:45 adeht: Right, but all C++ exception-handling unwinds before running the handler, even for something like unwind-protect. 01:04:55 contextl might have something interesting 01:05:01 cmm [~cmm@109.64.202.69] has joined #lisp 01:05:05 nyef: yeah, that's the handler-case part :) 01:05:15 Yeah. 01:05:30 And if you're using conditions for anything else? You're screwed. 01:05:45 nyef: well C++ doesn't have conditions :) 01:06:00 Right, they only put the -bad- ideas in C++. 01:06:29 nyef: and it doesn't have unwind-protect or really, I would say, sane semantics with exceptions 01:07:09 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:07:14 So, being horribly broken, it's also the model that everyone copies. :-/ 01:07:17 nyef: C++ programmers like to bring up RAII (or, better named, RRID.. as Wilson says in Imperfect C++), but it's really a weakness 01:07:38 RAII? 01:08:09 nyef: yes, Resource Acquisition Is Initialization.. they actually mean Resource Release Is Destruction 01:08:41 nyef: but destructors make for a very fragile system, and are a serious blow to robustness 01:08:57 nyef: because it's a big no-no to throw an exception in a destructor 01:09:03 Ah, right. 01:09:34 nyef: why? because by C++ rules, if an exception gets thrown while another exception is "active", std::terminate() will be called 01:09:55 nyef: and what runs when an exception causes unwinding? destructor code 01:10:49 That's a bit frightening, considering CL unwind semantics. 01:10:50 nyef: so for example, the return value of close() is very important for a reliable application to check 01:11:22 You can't wrap close to throw an exception because you lose when closing a file in a destructor. 01:11:28 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:11:31 nyef: but using iostreams may encourage people not to check it (they'd rely on the destructor to close, but the destructor can't report an error) 01:11:46 *nyef* shakes his head. 01:11:47 nyef: so the sane way is to call the close member function and check the return value 01:12:11 nyef: but almost no one does that :) 01:13:02 nyef: so that's why I consider C++ to promote fragile programs 01:13:10 having fixed ASDF, testing POIU... 01:13:40 Man, if C++ were building material for houses or office buildings or something it'd have been banned long ago. 01:15:49 anyway, I'm not really up to date with C++ nowadays.. maybe they'll have it fixed in the upcoming standard 01:16:16 Right. Strapping a rocket to a pig doesn't count as making it fly. 01:16:47 They're more likely to add something stupid at the last minute, like templates. 01:17:04 :) I consider the efforts after C++03 to be a big waste of time 01:18:00 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@s215n124.csun.edu] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:18:18 -!- konr1 [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:18:35 konr [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has joined #lisp 01:19:46 Fare: are ASDF config files evaluated or just read? 01:24:31 -!- _macro [~macro@shiva.mochimedia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:25:34 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:26:52 p_l: just read. 01:27:02 I don't remember if read-eval is bound to nil, though 01:27:07 so you can #. stuff 01:27:12 you can definitely #+ stuff 01:27:13 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 01:27:30 no read-eval binding. 01:27:34 is eval evil? 01:27:36 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 01:27:54 I mean, if you're using ASDF, you're going to eval stuff, for sure. 01:29:19 Eval isn't evil in and of itself, but some people should burn in hell for how they've used it. 01:29:48 it's too easy to shoot yourself in the foot with EVAL 01:30:18 Hell, it's too easy to shoot -other people- in the foot with EVAL. 01:30:43 I realize that "enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot" is more often applied to C++, but it applies here as well. 01:31:30 yay, POIU looks like it's working, and finding bugs in QRes... 01:31:52 Fare: I wanted to use translate-logical-pathname in my config 01:32:03 p_l: #. is your friend. 01:33:18 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:31 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.10.1 -- Are we there yet?] 01:35:27 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 01:35:31 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:38:27 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:38:52 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:38 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:40 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 01:46:43 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:47:20 hmmm 01:48:01 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:48:20 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:49:47 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:50:43 new ASDF changes quite a bit of my plans :| 01:50:49 need to rework the design 01:53:07 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 01:58:03 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:14 *fusss* is thinking about looking at Go over the weekend 01:58:37 the thing looks like the bastard child of Icon and Pike 01:58:42 ... -That's- what I'm forgetting. 01:59:50 it's a new jersey language, for sure 01:59:55 fusss: and it's got an atypical compiler/runtime last time I checked, too. 02:00:01 *it 02:00:50 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:01:14 *p_l* also had a lot of fun seeing the compiler executable names. 02:01:16 *nyef* installs gnugo. 02:01:55 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:01:57 but 6g suggests that they finished 6c as well, while last time I checked, everyone heard of the elusive 6c but no one outside the team had seen it. 02:02:09 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@74.112.107.99] has left #lisp 02:02:25 nyef: you dabbled in GOOG Go? 02:02:45 Umm... Don't believe so, no. 02:08:15 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:08:16 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 02:08:39 nyef: pharo smalltalk 1.0 is out; better that for the weekend, imo. 02:09:47 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f73433c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:09:48 I'm actually heading out for the weekend. 02:10:03 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f72d114.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.95.2] 02:10:23 nyef: out of emacs or out of the house? 02:10:38 Out of the house. 02:10:45 -!- coyo [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ACTION closes window in a panic] 02:10:58 nyef: Be careful out there 02:11:18 All sorts on unsavoury types 02:11:23 on/of 02:11:25 like dogs 02:11:32 dunno about the weather in U.S. but in oz it's volleyball for me after work 02:11:41 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:11:41 Ya they can be trouble for sure 02:11:43 p_l: I don't know, I've heard that if you cook them right... 02:12:10 We may have a volcanic ash sunrise tomorrow, hehe 02:12:28 Actually I think its gone now 02:13:04 nyef: yeah, but you first need to hunt them before they hunt you 02:13:16 that's the tricky part for inexperienced 02:13:31 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:13:46 I recommend brake link line from a bicycle made into a noose. 02:13:57 (for close range capture) 02:14:04 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:25 Taser? 02:14:33 usable 02:15:28 nyef: You're in the US, can you not just use a large calibre weapon... 02:15:44 I know it doesn't have to be large calibre, just sounds better 02:16:04 mortar? 02:16:10 Guthur: It's better if you don't damage the meat. 02:16:34 lol stassats, I was thinking elephant guns, but what ever gets the job done 02:16:39 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:51 The advantage of the mortar is that it becomes automatically tenderised and cut 02:18:41 plus some collateral damage 02:18:53 anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:14 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:32 Guthur: still, don't damage the meat. If you want cut and tender, you need laser. 02:21:57 anti-materiel rifle with sub-caliber munition would work as well, I guess 02:22:05 Nice way to seal in the flavour there as well 02:22:09 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:22:19 at short range, FN P90 02:22:34 (yes, it's my favourite PDW) 02:23:12 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:20 I never really liked it much in Counter Strike 02:23:31 I even once left a nearly-finished order for few kits of P90s, accessories (silencers, laser sights, lamps) and ammo on a public computer xD 02:23:52 it was a suggestion to owners that we might need those xD 02:25:48 the airfield I was flying at had (and I think still has) a problem with trespassers. 02:26:38 believe me, you don't want see a granny taking her doggie for a walk... on the runway. 02:27:08 Ouch. Foreign object damage? 02:27:17 especially when a ~3mm thick steel line moving at 100~150km/h is involved 02:28:36 (winch line for gliders. Cuts *very well*.) 02:28:51 Ah. I imagine it would. 02:30:43 of course, there's also the matter that the school gliders have Vmin >=56 km/h... in ideal conditions. 02:31:02 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:31:20 (i.e. in practice it's 60 and on that airfield it was common to approach @80~90km/h 02:31:24 ) 02:31:37 pookleblinky [~pooklebli@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:54 reminds me that I had this idea for a club airfield management app. 02:32:12 nyef: oh, you do low level hacking on SBCL - have you heard of any issues with OpenVz? 02:33:59 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-90-141.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:34:06 I can't say that I have heard of any. 02:35:07 good. I might get a cheap-enough VPS. 02:35:23 unfortunately my current shared server announced plans of dropping postgres :/ 02:35:35 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:36:00 This is the point where I plug tech.coop again. 02:36:03 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:36:26 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:36:26 palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has joined #lisp 02:36:26 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:36:26 -!- palter_ is now known as palter 02:36:42 nyef: the thing is, this one would include *local* datacenter. 02:36:56 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:01 Fair enough. 02:37:05 where the closest tech.coop one is >2000 km in straight line. 02:38:36 few times cheaper, as well 02:39:11 tech.coop for similar config ~=140 PLN/month. This one? 30~40 PLN/month. 02:41:54 -!- synthase is now known as synthasee 02:42:48 well, since it runs OpenVz, it could squeeze more into single box 02:43:14 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:43:21 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:43:46 You might want to double-check that SBCL works in OpenVZ. 02:43:56 WOW 02:44:33 our phone repair guy at work came in to fix the asterisk device and after chatting a bit I found out the thing has a builtin API 02:45:07 XML-RPC, SOAP and REST interface 02:45:21 luxury .. 02:49:00 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:49:43 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:45 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 02:54:02 I think I'm actually getting the hang of quasiquote. Nesting still gets a bit funky though ;) 02:54:47 you have to keep an internal stack in your neurons 02:55:11 I still don't have the hang of nested quasiquote. Fortunately, the only time I've had to deal with it and not factored it out was with a tale of two once-onlies. 02:55:25 bytecolor: just remember, one #\, undoes the most inner quote 02:55:44 `(do-soap (,nonce ,service "ns1:GetNonceRQ") 02:55:44 `(("Username" ,,user)) 02:55:45 (nonce-value ,nonce)))) 02:56:44 I am writing a 3rd layer of macro abstraction :-) 02:57:42 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:24 ... why does the second occurence of nonce only have one comma? 02:58:53 Oh. Nevermind. 02:59:10 that's paired with the first ` no? 02:59:14 Misread the parens because of the indent. 03:00:00 y'all will find out when i unleash cl-scum at your sorry unsoaped rear-ends 03:00:01 Better question: Why the second quasiquote, given that there's no single-comma forms in its body? 03:00:23 Remember to make sure it plays Maniac Mansion! 03:00:25 building up a macro up piece-wise is testing my sanity 03:00:50 bytecolor: abstract away as much as possible into helper functions 03:01:04 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 03:01:07 fusss: nod, that exactly what I'm _not_ doing atm 03:01:10 Mmm. Helper functions, separate macros, etc. 03:01:24 you know you have won when you macro only gensyms and calls helper functions on its &body 03:01:37 The most complex macrology I've ever done is the one for wire-format parsing in CLXS. 03:02:07 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:51 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 03:04:45 clhs define-compiler-macro 03:04:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_define.htm 03:06:20 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:06:28 how many of you use ecl? 03:06:46 I suspect that the answer is "not many". 03:06:57 what do you use instead? 03:07:04 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:07:05 I use (and hack on) SBCL. 03:07:15 es bee cee el 03:07:37 -!- bipt is now known as bet 03:09:19 think I'll leave define-compiler-macro for a future date when I'm feeling masochistic 03:09:30 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-3-195.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:09:51 Lis: on Linux - SBCL/amd64. On Windows, CCL/win64 03:10:13 p_l ccl is clozurecl? 03:10:24 bytecolor: Good idea. It's for optimization only, anyway, it's not supposed to change the semantics of the form it's expanding. 03:11:09 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-48-43.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:13:12 So, I'm looking at CLXS, and I'm finding some weird bits, like the function wire-type-binding-form-function, which takes a "type" and returns a function that takes a gensym and returns a lisp source form. 03:15:11 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 03:20:13 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:30 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:06 anair_84 [~anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:10 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:27:47 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:29:19 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 03:32:21 CLXS: Interesting ideas, flawed and incomplete implementation, and a coding style that is -so- five-years-ago. 03:34:35 felideon [~felideon@adsl-2-97-71.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:14 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:37:19 bipt` [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:00 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:25 -!- bet [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:26 -!- bipt` is now known as bet` 03:38:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 03:39:17 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:41:52 Guthur pasted "Why?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97853 03:42:41 I naively thought that the : made it act as if you were using the package, is it a little more complicated than that? 03:42:50 Guthur: ps:@ 03:42:56 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:42:59 ah ok course 03:43:03 ok/of 03:43:10 doh 03:43:39 (Yes, it's a little more complicated than that.) 03:43:48 : is not an operator -- it is part of the syntax of symbols. 03:44:13 a:b is a full symbol name -- b is a symbol name with the package implicit. 03:45:09 That makes sense, and brings a little bit of clarity. 03:52:07 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 03:57:10 grrrr, silly oversight in local-time 03:57:15 no time in 24-hour format 03:58:17 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:58:27 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:44 days should have 48 hours... 03:58:46 night all 03:58:51 -!- Lis [~Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 04:04:25 http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3266050&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=22#post373981622 04:04:44 My god. Lisp keeps us away from such evil. 04:06:21 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 04:08:12 pookleblinky: what in there did you find programming related? 04:08:28 and how is it different from any gamer forum? 04:08:47 it's not lisp, but not-being-a-moron that should keep you away from such idiocy 04:09:20 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:52 It's not a gamer forum, but it is pretty stupid. 04:15:07 It is almost certain that no one who knows lisp, has ever or will ever have such experiences with idiocy. It is an anti-drug, a vaccine. 04:15:26 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 04:16:17 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:22 k 04:19:53 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 04:22:36 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 04:24:04 saikat [~saikat@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:38 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:28:39 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:28:43 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host213-122-221-177.range213-122.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 04:29:08 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 04:33:40 Curtis_home [~notroot@c-66-41-69-83.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:45 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-2-97-71.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:34:46 EVAL: variable A has no value 04:34:57 using clisp to do some homework... 04:35:41 trying to compare atoms, (if (= 3 3)... is true, (if (= a a)... freaks the interpreter out 04:35:58 Perhaps you mean 'a ? 04:36:16 3 evaluates to 3, so you don't need '3 (although that wouldn't hurt) 04:36:21 a on the other hand ... 04:36:48 I maybe should have not wrote that, im actually using (first... and iterating through a list of numbers and letters 04:37:05 ill pastie 04:37:17 Your error indicates this kind of problem. Also, please learn how to spell "I'll". 04:37:38 http://pastie.org/922625 04:38:15 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:38:18 It works as expected if I stick to numbers 04:38:36 You have misreported your error. 04:38:50 I guess my root question is: does the (=...) comparison apply to only numbers 04:38:54 = is only applicable to numbers, so you have a type error. 04:39:06 Thank you. 04:39:07 -!- bet` [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:39:09 The common lisp hyperspec may be useful for you. 04:39:19 The general equality operation in CL is EQL. 04:39:53 = gives numeric equality, which allows comparison between integer and float and ratio and so on. 04:41:30 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-67-160-236-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 04:42:41 Zhivago, are you a bot programmed in lisp? 04:42:56 curtis: Please reserve your stupidity for an appropriate forum. 04:43:14 You've been almost too helpful for irc, thanks again. 04:43:59 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:44:28 Welcome. 04:44:47 ugh, '3 04:45:12 reminds of some logic frameworks i have dabbled in where you had to quote all values 04:45:28 I think that understanding '3 is useful for understanding 'a -- not to recommend it as good style. 04:46:09 for homework, yes. for everyday hacking, i would even question the explicit EVAL 04:46:14 -!- Borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 04:48:24 guys, local-time:define-timezone requires a zone file argument. where can i get one for Sydney? 04:49:39 just copy from /usr/share/zoneinfo? 04:54:50 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-quisvmsdtjhmtusc] has joined #lisp 04:58:30 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 04:59:51 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 05:01:25 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:12:25 Good morning! 05:16:22 LOCAL-TIME is a bit funk and needs a tutorial. writing one atm. 05:16:28 Curtis_home: It looks like you are writing your own less-general version of the Lisp function POSITION. 05:17:05 Curtis_home: It also looks like you are not respecting agreed-upon conventions for Lisp code. 05:17:15 yeah, this is homework, so there is a lot of reinventing... er, recreation of things for the sake of learning 05:19:05 Still, I think if you want help here, you should probably indent your code correctly and use reasonable names for your identifiers. 05:20:44 -!- rapacity [~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:20:44 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 05:22:13 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:24:11 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:42 wtf, *slime-repl* buffer just because read-only 05:28:29 fusss pasted "local-time nano HOWTO" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97856 05:28:40 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 05:30:27 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:32:26 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:36:00 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 05:40:07 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:40:08 _3b: Thanks for the loop fixes. They clearly show I never got as far as to writing unit tests for it. 05:42:25 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 05:43:30 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:43:31 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 05:43:57 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:50:49 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:04 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-152-54.aei.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:52:20 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 05:53:22 -!- rrice [~rrice@76.211.14.95] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:56:07 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:57:38 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-76-230-233-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:58 -!- Curtis_home [~notroot@c-66-41-69-83.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04:38 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:46 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04:50 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:52 Can a short-float have better precision than a single-float? I can't find any reason why not in the HyperSpec. 06:08:07 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:12:19 I think that "For the four defined subtypes of type float, it is true that intermediate between the type short-float and the type long-float are the type single-float and the type double-float." implies that it should not. 06:13:56 It's another case where the type-ungrading brain-damage strikes stupidity into the type system. 06:14:04 Er, upgrading. 06:15:28 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:15:29 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:17:03 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-191-172.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:17:46 what happens when you upgrade? what do you upgrade? 06:21:18 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:22:01 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:25:48 I am asking because it would make a lot of sense on a 64-bit machine to have an immediate 61-bit floating-point type. It would also make sense to not call it single float, because that name suggests an IEEE single-precision floating point number. 06:28:17 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 06:28:58 CL caring about IEEE naming conventions? My goodness :) 06:32:12 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 06:35:43 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:36:37 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:36:43 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:37:08 good morning 06:37:10 hello mvilleneuve 06:37:26 this sucks, three updates of local-time fix something while breaking something else 06:38:28 #+(and ccl windows) (push "foo" *bar*) #+(and ccl (not windows)) (push "bar" *bar*) 06:38:40 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:38:41 *bar* ==> ("bar" "foo") :-/ 06:39:30 beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 06:41:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:42:54 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:43:41 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 06:48:43 huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 06:49:04 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 06:49:21 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:51:29 Hi, why (subtypep '(simple-array t (*)) 'simple-vector) => nil, while (subtypep 'simple-vector '(simple-array t *)) => t ? according to CLHS, "This is the same as (simple-array t (size))." 06:51:39 OK, another question wrt the CL standard: I can't seem to find what an implementation should do when it finds a token that corresponds to the syntax of a potential number, but for which the implementation doesn't define any meaning. 06:53:33 *beach* leaves for work. Spiaggia will read the answers later. 06:53:43 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066169.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:57:04 <_3b> huangjs: clisp and sbcl say T for both of those here 06:58:32 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-76-230-233-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:03:08 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 07:03:22 hello 07:04:36 he fe[nl]ix 07:04:48 hello fusss 07:04:50 ASau` [~user@77.246.231.195] has joined #lisp 07:06:11 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:21 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754151.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:34 fusss: I won't add thread-id to bordeaux-threads because it's not portable 07:07:37 fiveop [~fiveop@g229107151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:08:43 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:36 beach: the interpretation is implementation defined 07:13:04 beach: so I think you should signal an error 07:14:47 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 07:17:37 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:18:03 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:28 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:42 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:21:33 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:24:55 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:25:28 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26:07 vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-emoxfbowfqthncab] has joined #lisp 07:26:12 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.51] has joined #lisp 07:26:32 fe[nl]ix: that's fine 07:26:58 skeledrew1 [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 07:27:29 fusss: thread_id only exists on Linux and it's useful only if the Lisp threads are OS threads 07:27:51 good for SBCL and CCL, but not Lispworks 07:28:22 morning 07:28:38 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:28 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 07:30:05 Can anyone direct me to standard representation of literals for reader? 07:30:36 HyperSpec isn't much useful in this respect, 07:30:43 or I'm looking into wrong index. 07:31:22 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:31:57 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:35:42 Ah, I want 2.4, it seems. 07:36:53 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:37:08 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 07:38:17 fe[nl]ix: kudos! i am an avid LW user 07:38:35 though my current muse is ccl 07:38:44 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:39:09 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 07:40:24 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:43:52 tcr: It occurred to me to define yyyy-mm-dd as a date. 07:43:55 mle [~emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:11 hello vtl 07:45:05 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ayfnzjxcfvgglgcg] has joined #lisp 07:46:09 vtl: Are you working on any Lisp projects? 07:46:29 spiaggia: not much. cl-v4l2 and cl-zmq 07:46:35 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 07:48:21 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-107-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:48:52 That's good. 07:49:17 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-171-38.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 07:49:24 spiaggia: I always wanted to think about postfix reader macros, so you can have 14% => 14/100 07:50:31 tcr: That would be tricky though with the current reader framework. 07:50:31 vtl: hey! 07:50:41 vtl: are you the guy behind cl-zmq? 07:50:47 fusss: hi. yep 07:51:57 -!- skeledrew1 [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:52:17 vtl: cheers mate! i am the guy who needed help with it, emailed you from work account (mahmud) 07:52:27 few weeks back 07:53:06 i needed a piece of persistent middleware and ended up hacking one together; but i got cl-zmq to work 07:53:14 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:54:47 fusss: good to know somebody uses it. still waiting for mail 07:55:25 -!- xan_ [~xan@adsl-207-214-87-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:55:37 vtl: you wrote back :-) i corrected something in the docs and asked you to export a symbol 07:55:53 fusss: Ah, i thought you just sent it ;) 07:57:13 sunwukong [~vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:58:44 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 08:00:22 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:00:46 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:42 saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:43 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:01:56 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 08:01:58 -!- saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:02:17 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:03:48 nite all 08:03:48 -!- fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:07:47 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:07:52 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:28 plage [~user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:10:19 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:45 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:30 xan_ [~xan@adsl-207-214-87-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:16 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:17:54 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 08:21:15 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:21:34 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:09 -!- tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:24:59 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:25:38 _3b: thanks. I think there might be a mistake in my typing... 08:26:47 tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:27:25 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066163.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 08:31:17 ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:31:45 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:31:48 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:32:05 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:17 ejs1 [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:32:22 -!- ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:33:01 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.59] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:33:08 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:33:16 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:31 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A6EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:56 utoku [~user@81.214.124.250] has joined #lisp 08:36:26 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754151.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:36:37 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:38:31 -!- ejs1 [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:38:37 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 08:39:47 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:40:17 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:23 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:42:23 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:42:41 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:34 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:43:38 ejs1 [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:44:21 I have to integres, and I want to divide them and have the result be of type double-float. What's the best way to do that? (/ (float A 1.0d0) (float B 1.0d0))? 08:47:11 saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:11 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:47:12 -!- saikat_ is now known as saikat 08:48:28 -!- sunwukong [~vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49:35 saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:35 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:49:35 -!- saikat_ is now known as saikat 08:52:28 -!- xan_ [~xan@adsl-207-214-87-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:00:48 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:01:10 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:03:28 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:04:10 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:09 mathk [~Miranda@78.155.152.6] has joined #lisp 09:07:34 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 09:09:04 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:10:19 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:10:36 -!- plage [~user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 09:11:16 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:14:12 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:15:40 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-70-29.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:18:21 Codemastor [Codemastor@2002:dde9:5f73::dde9:5f73] has joined #lisp 09:18:53 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:21:37 -!- Codemastor [Codemastor@2002:dde9:5f73::dde9:5f73] has left #lisp 09:24:09 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:24:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-44-43.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:26:39 Hi all, I'm just wondering, for those that know, how does ecl's performance compare to SBCL's? (I know of the Performance Benchmark page on cliki, but those versions seem a bit old.) 09:27:10 the performance will vary deending on the task at hand, you know? 09:27:27 jtza8: ISTR that hefner said it's horrible 09:28:07 ISTR? 09:28:12 one man's horrible is another man's good-enough 09:28:40 Yeah, when it comes to games though... 09:28:43 jtza8: I Seem To Remember 09:28:53 faster allways helps 09:28:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 09:29:25 -!- joga [joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Changing host] 09:29:25 joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 09:29:58 Still, perhaps with performance moving to the GPU, horrible might be good enough =) 09:30:42 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-zpdtqhfgusflgnqx] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:30:56 I'm just looking for a smaller distribution footprint. 09:31:53 Well, thanks all, the advice was much appreciated. 09:36:01 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:20 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066163.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:40:12 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-qawtlspsxdokugqv] has joined #lisp 09:40:17 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 09:42:04 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:45:12 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-100-230.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:52:19 brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:55:59 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban1.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:18 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:59 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:00:48 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:01:15 udzinari` [~user@nat/ibm/x-vwnbdwksmxqfztzb] has joined #lisp 10:06:15 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:13:49 Guthur [~Michael@host213-122-221-177.range213-122.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:14 -!- Nshag [user@82.64.54.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 10:19:08 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:19:24 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.51] has joined #lisp 10:23:13 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-48-251.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:28:16 bluewres [~bluewres@c-98-207-94-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:19 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-25-82-254-147-92.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:32 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 10:38:38 Samuel9999 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has joined #lisp 10:39:21 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:47:58 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:50:28 -!- bluewres [~bluewres@c-98-207-94-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:53:22 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:56:21 -!- udzinari` [~user@nat/ibm/x-vwnbdwksmxqfztzb] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:59:56 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-26-247-120.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:02:20 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 11:04:46 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:05:38 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 11:08:38 lichtblau [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:15:23 -!- randa [~randa@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:15:26 randa [~randa@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:17:57 Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.68.46] has joined #lisp 11:23:48 -!- Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.68.46] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 11:26:38 -!- konr [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:28:28 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:09 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:31:20 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.95.3] 11:33:59 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:34:11 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:36:58 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:14 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:15 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:43:04 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:44:05 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:45:29 coyo [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:27 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 11:49:05 Joreji [~thomas@91-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:55:08 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-40-75.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:32 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:58:48 -!- mathk [~Miranda@78.155.152.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:58:57 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:54 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-44-43.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:00:50 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:10 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 12:01:59 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.13.76] has joined #lisp 12:08:00 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:10:40 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:15:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 12:17:39 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:24 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:20:43 maden [~maden@198.168.103.254] has joined #lisp 12:22:58 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 12:25:04 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:25:57 sohum 12:26:12 I meant to mention that your restart-invokers could be simplified. 12:29:23 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:30:40 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:32:22 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-40-75.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34:03 merl15__ [~merl@188-22-25-173.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:35:12 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:41 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-171-38.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:38:56 Xach: oh? 12:39:31 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:32 sohum: I believe you can eliminate continue-restart and use the standard function continue 12:39:32 davertron [~Dave@74-92-46-229-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:34 -!- fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:41:37 Xach: oh. neat! 12:46:21 Xach: is there any way I can poke at the source of #'continue? 12:47:06 M-. 12:48:02 Lis [~Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:14 -!- Lis [~Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:49:44 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:51:27 doesn't seem to work, but that might be a problem with my system more than anything else. I'll keep poking at it. 12:52:06 it shouldn't do anything more complicated than (invoke-restart 'continue) 12:52:45 sohum: in sbcl, it's almost the same as your function, but done in a macrolet to define continue, store-value, and use-value all at the same time. 12:53:06 -!- maden [~maden@198.168.103.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:53:44 fair enough 12:54:12 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:54:28 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:25 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:58:10 davazp [~user@108.Red-79-150-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:49 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:05:20 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:12 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:06:12 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 13:06:12 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:06:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@91-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:10:09 beach: fwiw, the new IEEE standard uses "binary{32,64,128}" etc. names for float representations 13:11:37 froydnj: Ah, thanks! 13:12:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.95.3] 13:12:38 -!- davazp [~user@108.Red-79-150-170.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:12:47 So I could use short-float for binary32, single-float for an immediate 62-bit floating point representation, double-float for binary64 and long-float for binary128. 13:14:07 sure. 13:14:12 mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:36 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 13:16:46 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:16:55 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:35 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:20:27 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754151.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:29 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:29 14:46:29 -!- names: ccl-logbot Krystof mik8y skeledrew pix4 HET3 jtza8 rtra sbahra francogrex ejs kpreid bozhidar mathrick mstevens slyrus_ Sergio` freiksenet Lis housel rrice ski LiamH BrianRice rread_ cYmen2_ glogic_ z0d qebab_ m4dnificent jsoft__ beach` _3b`` huangjs` fgtech^ morphling dcibiel lnostdal_ felideon mal__ billstclair davertron merl15__ Odin- Adlai debiandebian mattrepl coyo stassats kejsaren_ randa lichtblau nha Samuel9999 Nshag kwinz3 Guthur fisxoj brandelune 14:46:29 -!- names: Tordek mbohun ichernetsky ignas levente_meszaros arbscht utoku Yuuhi aerique tcr spoofy hlavaty mcsontos mle REPLeffect SandGorgon grouzen fiveop ASau` mvilleneuve Kolyan lhz htk_ setheus spradnyesh phadthai palter OmniMancer pookleblinky dys simplechat deepfire cmm scode sellout benny sohum Ralith mjonsson bytecolor djinni` rapacity bfein wolgo nixeagle zorn Kustnamenkloate Jasko joga xinming dstatyvka Draggor srcerer trsh daniel bzzbzz dcrawford 14:46:29 -!- names: dmiles_afk ikki Ginei_Morioka stettberger hohum kuwabara dto rootzlevel koollman Dodek stepnem tltstc christoph_debian Stattrav blast_hardcheese synthasee Madsy AntiSpamMeta ve m4thrick Pepe_ hypno nowhere_man jrockway_ rlpowell wgl felipe mooglenorph adeht herbieB fatblueduck hugod xavieran OsamaBinWOG Yamazaki-kun CrazyEddy drewc anekos_ Guest76266 Xantoz Oddity TDT straszhm lisppaste ryepup shadowspar vext01 schme araujo cmatei prip UnderTaLker 14:46:29 -!- names: retupmoca Demosthenes Anarch c|mell dostoyevsky kleppari wasabi fihi09``` Taggnostr pchrist varjagg Trystam Adrinael mornfall sytse vsync Reinout_Stevens cods adlai_ Xof cYmen foom dym andreer bgs000 krappie pok ironChicken rikjasnon dejones spiaggia hsaliak nasloc__ tic rsynnott nullman Buganini djm hc_e Helheim slather froydnj ennen df_aldur tomaw slyrus jyujin rahul kencausey clog sepisultrum hdurer_ cpt_nemo hicx174 frontiers bdowning jroes mgr_ 14:46:29 -!- names: dmelani p_l rotty franki^ johs nicolai guaqua borism lharc Riqpe kajic emma Khisanth blitz_ gz boyscared koning_r1bot nipra porcelina Aisling JuanDaugherty Amadiro billitch Guest34418 tychoish ianmcorvidae Patzy gigamonkey acieroid joast frodef cataska pkhuong gonzojive Axioplase_ ramus lukjad86 nyef qsun sykopomp Xach sid3k lonstein nuba yahooooo ``Erik ecraven derefed Tabmow codemonkeyx goosemo thijso eno drforr dalkvist zbigniew Fade PuffTheMagic 14:46:29 -!- names: lemoinem Intensity Borbus Arelius eldragon l_a_m yacin fda314925 BeZerk gl bakkdoor clop egn Zhivago luis specbot minion mikezor pr jsnell aCiD2 [df] antifuchs ineiros p8m kom_ tmitt Raptelan tvaalen 14:48:52 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:50:06 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 14:51:09 -!- francogrex [~francogre@19.124-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [] 14:51:10 -!- porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:46 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: cowardly quits for the weekend] 14:53:41 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-90-141.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:58:04 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:58:18 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.195] has quit [Quit: off] 15:00:11 -!- utoku [~user@81.214.124.250] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:00:16 -!- ryepup [~user@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 15:00:41 nipra_ [~nipra@115.118.109.201] has joined #lisp 15:00:44 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:01:44 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:01:53 sdqali [~sdqali@122.172.45.208] has joined #lisp 15:01:55 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 15:02:13 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:02:33 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 15:05:07 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:05:07 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:25 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:29 Good evening (or almost). 15:06:31 -!- sdqali [~sdqali@122.172.45.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:42 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:12 Hello beach`. 15:07:50 -!- beach` is now known as beach 15:07:52 sdqali [~sdqali@122.172.45.208] has joined #lisp 15:08:58 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:36 -!- sdqali [~sdqali@122.172.45.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:39 sdqali_ [~sdqali@122.172.45.208] has joined #lisp 15:10:48 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:10:55 -!- sdqali_ is now known as sdqali 15:12:09 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:14:04 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:18 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:28 it is a good evening - after all, i finally managed to corner a KLM rep. Quite an impressive thing to do, at the moment. -_-; 15:14:43 Heh! 15:15:15 beach: Poland has closed all airports except one, and the airline still doesn't know if they won't have to cancel my flight :/ 15:15:34 (Schiphol is closed till tomorrow 0600 CEST) 15:15:37 p_l: Yeah, it sounds pretty bad. 15:15:50 p_l: Where were you thinking of going? 15:16:11 lisp airfare search vs. the volcano 15:17:40 beach: it's a return flight to Aberdeen, from Warsaw via Schiphol. 15:17:55 (now, if only bloody brits joined Schengen Treaty...) 15:18:22 p_l: Not going to happen any time soon. 15:18:39 yeah. 15:18:40 p_l: I am trying to convince the Scots to adopt the Euro! 15:19:19 Still, it's bloody funny to read about SNP, even if it's the morbid kind of funny - imagine if they actually pulled what they claim to want! (that is, Scottish independence) 15:19:43 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 15:19:51 wsix [~wsix@c-76-21-137-232.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:26 I'll have to go through my paperwork in UK and Poland to make sure all the voting stuff is correct. And save money for a trip to consulate for voting this june.... gah, politics. Let's talk lisp. 15:20:58 beach: have you tried new ASDF? not the last two versions (Fare said 1.700 and 1.701 are simply broken)? 15:21:01 I haven't read it. I do know that if each ethnic group wants its own connected territory, then we will have many countries the size of a single house. 15:21:28 Lis: you must live a very simple existence for a binding generator to be both magical and the solution to _all_ your problems. I'm not sure whether to pity you or be happy for you :P 15:21:30 p_l: I haven't tried new ASDF, no. And I use very little of the functionality. 15:22:05 drewc: The latter! Believe me! 15:22:09 beach: the new configuration stuff makes quite a change in packaging, IMHO 15:22:30 That's good I guess and hope. 15:23:57 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-quisvmsdtjhmtusc] has left #lisp 15:24:00 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban1.inka-online.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:24:13 when I figure how to configure it right, I guess it will be xD 15:24:31 drewc i just needet a working example. I also decidet not to use swig 15:24:37 (default settings ran amok causing grief and everything) 15:24:47 beach: i guess that means i have to pity myself, for my problems are quite a bit more complex. Would that there was a "drewc's clients desired solutions generator" and all my problems would be solved as well :) 15:25:15 drewc: That is definitely a lot more complicated, yes. 15:25:26 drewc but I will deffinately look over it's source. They have a working custom c++ parser 15:25:30 you need a generators generator 15:25:38 stassats: that's *my* job 15:26:14 drewc: I am wishing for a simpler situation myself, 'cause now I need a "find more time than 24h/day or a clone willing to do the dirty work" solution. 15:26:33 or automatize more 15:26:36 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ayfnzjxcfvgglgcg] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:26:41 stassats: *automate 15:27:02 that sounds much better 15:27:06 :) 15:27:51 stassats: I am assuming you want to be corrected occasionally in order to perfect your skills, right? 15:28:09 -!- mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:09 beach: sure 15:29:23 mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has joined #lisp 15:30:07 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:30:13 beach: i've recently started delegating more, and it seems to be working. My clients are happy, i have multiple projects on the go, and there now a few peole who could take over if i was hit by a bus. And since i pay them slightly less than i bill the client, eventually i might be able to move to a supervisory role almost entirely. 15:30:29 there are now* 15:31:07 (which means i'd be able to spend more time working on my libraries and tools, which is what i really enjoy doing) 15:31:33 easyE [orCNLp8TN8@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:43 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:32:20 _3b [foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:20 Lis: I'm pretty sure C++ can't be parsed, so while they may have a custom c++ parser, i bet it doesn't actually 'work' for all values of work :P 15:34:27 rather :) 15:34:55 I've yet to see a C parser that works properly outside of a compiler. 15:35:14 drewc: Yeah, that's a good plan. It is trickier for me to delegate because I, and all of the people I could delegate things to, essentially work for free. 15:35:33 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:36:20 drewc: Thought lately, I am able to delegate to my successor. My mandate is over in 12 weeks or so, and my successor has already started doing more work than I have the energy to do at the moment. 15:36:34 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-10-249.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:36:39 you're about to retire? 15:37:12 No wonder why you're working on your own CL implementation! 15:37:12 tcr: The mandate as head of (teaching) department is 4 years. I'll just go back to being a teacher/researcher. 15:37:21 very funny! 15:37:22 oh ok, I thought you'd pull a piso 15:37:29 no problem. 15:37:31 -!- mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:59 beach: the whole 'working for free' bit does complicate things somewhat :) 15:38:16 mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has joined #lisp 15:38:19 beach: looking forward to the end of your mandate? 15:38:22 drewc: In this job at least, it screws things up pretty bad. 15:38:36 drewc: Yes, and I have for the past 2 years or so. 15:39:02 tcr: did piso retire from writing CL compilers or did he retire to write Lisp compilers? 15:39:23 xan_ [~xan@adsl-207-214-87-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:29 eternal question 15:39:49 linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:39:59 how's the lispm chuckling along? 15:40:20 chuckling? 15:40:27 -!- Kustnamenkloate [titan@unaffiliated/appetite] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:41 tcr: And who was the question aimed for? 15:42:03 i guess a real lispm, not Rainer 15:42:18 nyef: i've read that C can be LR(1), but i don't actually believe it when i think about it 15:42:24 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A6EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:30 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A6EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:43 beach: luis told yesterday how antonio set up a lispm in front of him, presumably at his company? 15:42:45 drewc: Actually, the bit that screws everything up is the preprocessor. 15:42:47 TR2N [email@89.180.216.232] has joined #lisp 15:42:48 tcr: it's turned off atm I'm afraid. 15:42:57 -!- fgtech^ [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...] 15:43:02 tcr: but it's right behind me. :-) 15:43:04 nyef: yeah, that would make sense 15:43:16 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 15:44:22 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:44:35 konr [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has joined #lisp 15:45:29 what's a good name for a continuation which is supposed to unwind? something like success-cont and failure-cont 15:45:45 anything canonical? 15:45:56 unwind in what sense? 15:46:08 milanj [~milanj_@79.101.78.241] has joined #lisp 15:46:18 an abort, a cleanup, a we-have-the-value-and-don't-need-to-do-any-more-calculation? 15:46:36 well the former is supposed to continue the current computation, the latter to stop it 15:46:50 stop and finish 15:47:00 perhaps finish is a reasonable name 15:47:55 "I recall from my compilers class that LR(n) for n > 0 is mathematically reducable to LR(1). Is that not true for n = infinity?" <---- how does one who thinks like that even get _in_ to university? 15:48:01 -!- mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:44 tcr: I like 'success-continuation' or 'success-k' 15:49:56 maybe it's because my dad is from the north of Ireland, but i read 'cont' in that accent and i don't want to know what a failure-cont is! 15:50:18 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 15:50:18 I called it continue and finish which I think make more sense as it's neither a success, nor a failure at that point. 15:51:45 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:52:32 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:47 ye daft-cont ye 15:52:48 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:53:32 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 15:53:40 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:53:55 -!- xan_ [~xan@adsl-207-214-87-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:56:01 stassats: what about some slime hacking? :-) 15:56:29 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:56:32 would be a good change after java hacking (oh dear) 15:56:48 how comes? 15:56:51 university? 15:57:20 i was asked to help with a university homework 15:57:47 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:58:18 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:52 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-107-8.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:59:58 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:00:25 tcr: ITYM "chugging". 16:00:38 what do you usually do in the repl when you want to start/continue developing one of your systems? what asdf service do you call? 16:00:45 beach: Yes could be 16:00:58 levente_meszaros: ,open-system 16:01:30 tcr, is that a new thing? 16:01:37 Now who was it that convinced me to give lisp-unit another go? 16:01:37 reasonably new 16:01:39 it's not in sbcl's asdf I think 16:01:51 it's a slime repl command in case you use the slime-asdf contrib 16:02:18 what does it do in extra other than load-system? 16:02:43 it opens all files listed in the .asd file 16:02:45 tcr, ah I see, I though that asdf has or will have something like that 16:03:21 is there an open-op? 16:03:21 trying to get you into the "main" file (basically the file named like the system) 16:03:24 nope 16:04:48 I always do a develop-system (this is a custom op) 16:05:32 it does a load-system, sets *package*, loads all swank customization for all loaded systems, pushes a number of features, declaims debug, etc. 16:06:19 if there's a test system it also loads that and switches to its package 16:06:26 yeah the package is what I miss from ,open-system but stassats says he uses C-c ~ for that and he hacked open-system in 16:07:12 sets up system specific development support (using perform customizations) e.g. configuring a test database, etc 16:07:46 if you just type (test) after (develop-system) it will run the whole test suite 16:08:19 alternatively you can call any tests or any other function in the library 16:08:26 I find this approach very useful 16:08:47 levente_meszaros: I'm currently reading through ASDF to find a way to properly define such hooks into *declarative-style* system definitions. 16:09:29 p_l, I think you can't have all those things declaratively 16:10:00 develop-op also sets logger levels, *debug-on-error* flags, etc 16:10:26 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:46 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 16:11:50 if a project involves a web server, it also starts the web server in test mode, sets the current locale to a default, etc 16:13:30 test-system is quite different, it tries hard to do minimal side effects or none, and just runs the test suite keeping the result around 16:14:06 I'm bringing this up, because I think asdf could have something like that 16:15:01 levente_meszaros: I wanted to put such stuff into a separate file to be called, with asdf support for mentioning that such hooks are there. 16:16:28 so you could have system.asd mention that system-test is the system containing test suite etc. and which function to call to run the tests (or it could be handled with some extra declarations? Like what to call for testing etc?), another declaration could show what to run to generate documentation, etc. 16:16:41 gussing_ [~gussing@58.33.1.80] has joined #lisp 16:17:17 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:18:05 brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has joined #lisp 16:18:11 -!- sdqali [~sdqali@122.172.45.208] has left #lisp 16:18:15 p_l, I already do this, a system tells its favorite package, test system name, documentation system name 16:18:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:19:16 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:19:51 following rules makes possible to use automated testing, documentation generation, etc. 16:20:21 dwim.hu for example runs the test suite of all our systems every night which has a commit since the last test 16:20:46 records the result into a database and sends a report in an email 16:21:47 in one acronym, DWIM 16:24:20 there are not too many CL projects which do automated testing... 16:25:26 levente_meszaros: I submitted similiar suggestions to asdf's bug tracker a few months ago 16:26:09 tcr, link? 16:26:37 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 16:27:35 it's on LP 16:27:49 https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf 16:31:42 well, I upgraded to ASDF 1.679 partially in order to write some patches like that (and to make a CLI tool to automate that from outside - look at RubyGems and cabal, how they usually build documentation together with package and offer it at standard location) 16:37:21 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:32 Odditus [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 16:37:38 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:09 -!- Odditus is now known as Oddity 16:38:53 stassats: so available for some hacking? 16:39:02 yep 16:40:12 there's still that autodoc mess to be tidied up, though I can understand if you do not want to do that. And what I was actually looking for is that slime-threads gets auto-updated 16:41:11 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:22 the latter is easier 16:42:01 -!- gussing_ [~gussing@58.33.1.80] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42:14 netfrog [~user@62.219.155.231] has joined #lisp 16:42:22 sure just make sure the period is customizable and by default set to nil (or 0) which means no auto update 16:42:40 gussing_ [~gussing@58.33.1.80] has joined #lisp 16:43:18 hm I'd like if the buffer was partitioned to show live threads, and dead threads, and auto update would shovel dead threads over to the dead threads list 16:44:08 and make sure to filter out the worker threads that were responsible for updating 16:45:44 phryk [~phryk@yggdrasil.phryk.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:32 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:47:53 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:06 Hi guys. Is anyone here who can tell me the actual dependencies of weblocks? I seem to be too dumb to find them on the web... 16:48:26 look at the .asd file 16:49:42 hmm 16:50:15 Mhh will do 16:50:44 and notice :depends-on there 16:52:01 but if you just want to install weblocks, use clbuild 16:52:03 minion: clbuild? 16:52:03 clbuild: clbuild is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 16:52:23 stassats: well i would like to install it over my distributions package manager 16:52:33 that's a bad idea 16:52:41 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:52:51 beaumonta [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:52:59 there is an ebuild for it, but the dependencies cause the package manager to pull in emacs. Which I do not want. 16:53:07 why is it a bad idea? 16:53:29 you just answered yourself 16:53:49 Well I just wanted to rewrite it to have only the actual dependencies... 16:54:14 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431]] 16:55:26 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:55:41 -!- netfrog [~user@62.219.155.231] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:58:23 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:39 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:00:04 phryk: don't. use clbuild. 17:00:22 -!- gussing_ [~gussing@58.33.1.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:00:31 GAH PEOPLE 17:00:32 phryk: or, ignore the advice of people who know better and don't expect any support from them after.... up to you :) 17:00:56 You are confusing me :'( 17:01:02 drewc: Nicely put! 17:01:25 clbuild is the way the weblocks site tells me to go... 17:01:43 phryk: i hope it's not punctuation that is confusing you 17:01:43 Also I hope it won't install emacs on my machine ^_^; 17:01:53 i mean USE CLBUILD PLEASE! :) 17:02:10 NOW you are really confusing me. 17:02:11 phryk: drewc is saying "this is the best advice we have, if you don't like it, that's fine with us, but then please don't ask for any further advice". 17:02:21 phryk: you are planning on using emacs and slime to develop, right? 17:02:26 Be nice. I'm a total beginner. 17:02:30 Ah okay. 17:02:36 drewc: No I'm not. 17:02:41 phryk: You should. 17:02:42 phryk: yes, you are ;) 17:02:55 If I was planning on using emacs I wouldn't bitch about the package manager pulling it in.. 17:03:05 use clbuild, use sbcl (or ccl), use emacs + slime. 17:03:14 phryk: And that's the best advice we have. If you don't like that, then you are on your own, as far as #lisp is concerned. 17:03:43 or, expect a lot more pain then i'm willing to help your through.We're happy to hold hands here, but not if the pain is self-inflicted :) 17:04:03 drewc: *than 17:04:05 -!- Guest34418 [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:04:15 You guys sure are stringent... 17:04:28 phryk: "pragmatic" is better. 17:04:36 Heh 17:04:52 phryk: did you want advice on how to do things right, or would you prefer we let you run around blindly without a clue for a few years? :P 17:05:04 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.215] has joined #lisp 17:05:10 Well I only want to try out weblocks for a whee bit and then django before I decide what I'll use. 17:05:26 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:05:47 well, my opinions on _that_ i'll keep to myself. 17:06:44 Now I'm thinking you're all like "OF COARSE WEBLOCKS IS TEH BETTAR! HURR!!" :/ 17:06:55 no, weblocks is crap 17:07:02 phryk: It is hard for us to give advice to others who have decided to do something radically different from the way we usually do things. So, in that case you are pretty much on your own. On the other hand, if you follow advice, you will be able to get help here whenever you want. 17:07:05 drewc: but you promised :( 17:07:27 Xach: well, i have to come to my own defense after "HURR". 17:07:36 ^_^ 17:07:39 minion: tell phryk about linux-quickstart 17:07:39 phryk: direct your attention towards linux-quickstart: Linux Common Lisp Quickstart (Emacs, SLIME and SBCL + clbuild): http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ 17:08:02 of course, django and python are crap too 17:08:03 dmsh [~dmsh@ppp91-77-133-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:08:47 but i _hate_ codewalking CPS transformers and 'magic' widget frameworks more than i hate REST and python. :) 17:09:22 (i might also note that there are better options than weblocks for CL) 17:09:31 drewc: And what do you like? 17:09:35 phryk: oi 17:09:36 mmm python 17:09:38 drewc: I think you'd have liked Merb's approach xD 17:09:39 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:09:55 Mh, what other web-frameworks than weblocks are there? Found none :/ 17:10:02 i've been using UCW for 6 years in production, but have recently moved to a few libraries of my own making 17:10:04 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-109-83.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:10:12 minion: tell phryk about UCW 17:10:13 phryk: have a look at UCW: UnCommon Web is a Common Lisp web application development framework. http://www.cliki.net/UCW 17:10:18 minion: tell phryk about hunchentoot 17:10:18 phryk: please see hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 17:10:48 phryk: both those options are far better than weblocks, imnsho. 17:10:50 I'm personally moving towards bare Hunchentoot/tpd2 17:10:51 dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:10:55 jpanest [~jpanest@174-143-154-194.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:13 p_l: tdp2? pray tell why... some of the ugliest code i've ever seen! 17:11:15 weblocks looks nice etc, but it didn't "click" for me 17:11:17 Is hunchentoot limited to lisp? 17:11:24 so? 17:11:33 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 17:11:34 I mean can I use python/other stuff via cgi with it? 17:11:50 phryk: yes, but why would you want to? What is it you actually want to do? 17:11:52 Why on earth would you want to do that? 17:11:54 it's written in lisp, you can run cgi through it (but why would anyone want to do that) 17:11:55 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-72-253.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:11:57 drewc: actually, it's more towards -- 17:12:06 xan_ [~xan@adsl-207-214-87-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:20 p_l: you want FTW! :) 17:12:21 To have projects of more than one language running? 17:12:37 drewc: that's the name for your current batch of libs? :) 17:12:44 Why would you want to use languages inferior to Lisp? 17:13:01 p_l: yeah, "Libraries : For The Web!" 17:13:05 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:18 p_l: each one being "_something_ : For The Web!" :) 17:13:21 xristos [~x@research.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 17:13:21 beach: Err. "inferior" is pretty much personal taste.. 17:13:32 -!- xristos is now known as Guest76982 17:13:33 phryk: Not really. 17:13:34 phryk: umm... no 17:13:51 I tried writing my own object system for Python. Un-fun. 17:13:54 drewc: Mind you, *requiring* CPS turns me away - one of the reasons why I started seriously looking into UCW was that it didn't really require it (the idea of the common protocol for handling requests then using that to implement whatever you want is very nice for me) 17:13:56 beach: Then what makes lisp the best lanugage in teh world? 17:13:56 phryk: if you think that's a fact, you have a _lot_ to learn about programming languages ;) 17:14:09 minion, features of common lisp? 17:14:09 features of common lisp: Features of Common Lisp, a one-page summary of what makes Common Lisp unique: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 17:14:15 afk, some cleaning to do. 17:14:16 phryk, have a look at that. 17:14:22 p_l: there is no CPS in FTW at all. 17:14:49 phryk: That's not the same thing. But given quite a few languages, compared to Lisp they are inferior. Some of them are incomparable. It is not a totally-ordered set. 17:14:52 p_l: actually, not entirely true... the dispatch mechanism uses CPS, but the programmer is not exposed to it, and it's not a transformation. 17:15:05 drewc: good. I find it interesting et al, but I'd go mad trying to implement a REST-style API on it. 17:15:23 p_l: REST + continuation is the raison d'etre for FTW 17:15:31 p_l: i'll paste an example, hold. 17:15:32 afk - cleaning time, guests (family comes) 17:15:33 sdqali [~sdqali@122.172.36.219] has joined #lisp 17:15:50 p_l: ok, ping me when you have a chance and i'll fill you in on what i'm doing these days :) 17:16:12 drewc: the stack idea for me comes from seeing Rack plugins in Ruby - like handling authentication or stuff like Ext.Direct without involving the rest of the system. 17:16:24 drewc: I'll ping you later 17:16:27 p_l: i have a much better way of doing that, imo 17:16:29 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:18:07 -!- sdqali [~sdqali@122.172.36.219] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19:49 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 17:20:19 moah [~gnu@188.109.124.41] has joined #lisp 17:21:05 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:22 has anyone ever written a blog post or similar on the "hi guys i'm now to lisp and want to do everything the way i did it in but using lisp. can you help?" phenomenon? 17:21:29 new to lisp* 17:21:44 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-107-8.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:22:43 -!- jpanest [~jpanest@174-143-154-194.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:22:45 drewc: I have never seen such a thing. 17:23:12 *drewc* adds it to his TODO 17:23:39 obviously somewhere after 'start a blog' 17:23:54 :-( 17:24:00 The feature site makes me not want to learn lisp... 17:24:02 which is just after 'write some blog software using FTW' 17:24:15 phryk: Then you probably shouldn't. 17:24:20 -!- Lis [~Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 17:24:34 beach: No I want to^^ But it's so friggin overwhelming... 17:24:39 tcr: i've made updating by the interval, but the thread id grows pretty fast 17:24:46 drewc: quite a while ago i wrote about the trends i noticed in my daily google lisp blog search, but i can't find it. 17:24:51 phryk: "Overwhelming" is what we are about. 17:24:52 phryk: good, consider yourself winnowed ;) 17:25:25 :D 17:25:32 phryk: it's better than underwhelming .. if that's a word. I know it's not cause it looked it up. 17:26:29 drewc: I guess I'll just never discuss the quality of programming languages with you again and hope you won't hit me^^ 17:27:05 never say never! 17:27:09 phryk: You have a couple of choices: If you want to become more productive, then we encourage you to learn Lisp and the associated tools, and we are willing to help you in that quest, or you want to use whatever you are using now and not become more productive (perhaps because you are already more procutive than your colleagues), then you will have to search for help elsewhere. 17:27:30 phryk: why do you want to learn lisp? 17:27:45 oh multiple reasons 17:27:48 (please don't say paul graham) :P 17:27:56 No 17:28:05 That's the guy who wrote some book about it, no? 17:28:21 drewc: It ain't where you're from, it's where you're at. 17:28:28 When i was like 12 or something someone told me "You'll never be able to program in lisp!" 17:28:33 Xach: PG is on my RtL 17:28:42 And I don't like people telling me what I'm able to do and what not. 17:29:06 but that was 2004.. i like to pretend that, while i'm sure he was a wanker then, we didn't really know yet. :) 17:29:08 phryk: I encourage you to read http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html 17:29:19 Also I wanted to see programming from a different perspective than c and all the languages that are more or less alike 17:29:50 *beach* vanishes to have dinner. 17:30:04 I was interviewing a candidate for a job and I asked him what his favorite programming language was. "Lisp! Did you know Paul Graham made Yahoo Store with Lisp?" So, do you use lisp, or just admire it? "Well...no, I don't USE it...but it's beautiful and elegant...etc" 17:30:11 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:11 I didn't want to be like that guy. 17:30:25 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 17:30:34 phryk: these are good reasons... but have nothing to do with using weblocks. I would suggest that you ignore any libraries at all, or any attempt at _real_ work, until you have worked through a good book. 17:30:38 this was probably around 2004, too... 17:30:43 like, say, that-dead-sexy one :) 17:30:51 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 17:30:53 i like the sound of french, but don't understand a word 17:30:59 There is a lot of mythology around lisp and lisp has a hip-factor that people want to be apart of 17:31:07 Xach: ha, typical :) 17:31:11 stassats: hmm 17:31:55 lisp is, culturally, the hippest thing out there. no? 17:32:04 stassats: to me, French sounds like an anglicized version of Quebecois :) 17:32:06 fatblueduck: that's not my impression. 17:32:29 but then, vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/lisp-programmers.jpg 17:32:35 fatblueduck: There is a hip-factor? 17:32:50 YES it's why python got big 17:33:02 well it's part of why 17:33:13 Everytime people talk about lisp i get the picture of bald, beardy old fat men... 17:33:13 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79.101.78.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:33:23 fatblueduck: that's a hype factor. 17:33:24 why? 17:33:28 I have no Idea. 17:33:40 _macro [~macro@shiva.mochimedia.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:42 phryk: the average age here is traditionally 31... 17:33:46 also http://i.imgur.com/1gF1j.jpg 17:33:50 I have a beard, and talk fondly of lisp 17:33:58 i have my hair, and trim..... but i am bearded ATM 17:34:04 look at how many people come to this channel and they want to lisp people, -they don't know anything about lisp but they want to be lisp people 17:34:27 fatblueduck: i'm not all that experienced with that particular phenomenon... 17:34:40 minion: do you want to be a lisp people? 17:34:40 why? because paul graham and esr have made lisp out to be some magical secret language 17:34:40 you'd have to tell me... my memory circuits are fried 17:34:43 projecting perhaps? :P 17:34:46 hehe that would be an interesting turn of development 17:35:04 Most people at uni look at me funny if I start talking about Lisp, but maybe that is just me 17:35:31 Guthur: having a beard doesn't mean much. I haven't managed to really get rid of mine since I was 13 17:35:43 People start to look at me funny if I start talking about programming at all.. That is as long as I'm not in the local hackerspace^^ 17:35:44 fatblueduck: Not sure I can say it's "many" 17:36:17 gavino comes to mind immediately 17:36:24 phryk: have you tried talking about programming with programmers? 17:36:33 fatblueduck: ESR at least was much better in general, though not regarding evangelising lisp. 17:36:33 lisp does have a certain cultural aura that surrounds it and this cultural aura is magnetic to certain types of people 17:36:48 like... you? 17:36:50 luis: Ya, in the before mentioned hackerspace ;P and with a few friends who are also geeks 17:36:56 anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:24 While many people dislike ESR, I found his book on Unix programming to be very good, including very good arguments to use whenever someone comes to play the benchmark game. 17:37:30 yes actually the reason I'm using lisp now... is because of all of the folklore surrounding. I know that's a bullshit reason for using a language, but that's the damn truth. 17:37:34 fatblueduck: in my experience, lisp attracts pragmatic programmers looking for a better way.... and yes, i'm projecting 17:37:53 p_l: Nope I was just commenting, I'm also not bald so don't fit fatblueducks stereotype 17:38:21 milanj [~milanj_@77.46.202.211] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 I wonder if there's a way to trace slot-value on a specific class 17:38:22 only hardcore lisp hackers have beards 17:38:32 the database chapter of PCL is very good in getting people to lisp, IMHO. 17:38:35 p_l: i dislike ESR, but will fully admit to having been influenced by him when i was younger and more easily influences by my ego. 17:38:44 pragmatic? there are hardly any jobs out there for lisp programming and what's pragmatic about using an obscure language? 17:39:00 tcr: and :around on slot-value-using-class :P 17:39:03 an* 17:39:16 p_l: I found that one terrible for being so naive 17:39:27 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:29 tcr: the database? 17:39:46 yeah 17:39:57 tcr: sure, it's naive, but I'll admit it makes a damn fine carrot :) 17:40:21 fatblueduck: well, let me put it to you this way. 17:40:22 Dunno, it made me feel like bad advertising 17:40:31 another character who raises the lisp banner quite well is andrew sorenson 17:40:34 I think that's his name 17:40:42 fatblueduck: when i was a php/perl programmer there was competition for every gig and i was worth about $25/hr 17:40:45 the guy who wrote the impromptu scheme software 17:41:21 fatblueduck: now my clients come to me and i can charge them whatever i want, as there is little competition and a tonne of work out there. 17:41:21 drewc: good point 17:41:48 there are more lisp jobs available than qualified lispers to fill them. 17:42:02 Who qualifies the lispers? 17:42:09 drewc: I did not know 17:42:10 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:42:46 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:49 darkestkhan [~darkestkh@188.33.188.173] has joined #lisp 17:43:13 nyef: i do, that's how i know :P 17:44:09 Heh. Do I qualify? 17:44:20 fatblueduck: i know of no lisp programmers, save for now you, that came to lisp because it's 'cool' or 'mysterious'. Most are pragmatic developers who found in lisp a better way to develop working software cheaper/faster/better. 17:44:22 nyef: ya 17:44:33 nyef: in fact, you've even worked for me, non? 17:44:40 drewc: On occasion, yes. 17:44:47 drewc, I'm no Lisp programmer, but I got interested in Lisp thanks to the coolness. :-) 17:45:19 i don't remember why i got interested in lisp 17:45:24 *nyef* got interested in lisp thanks to repeated exposure to claims of improved programmer efficiency... and an interest in emulation. 17:45:56 drewc: It's not exactly cool to tell other people that the _real_ reason you use lisp is because you wanted hip cred 17:45:58 And I got involved in #lisp thanks to a need for a several-thousand-time speedup in a program I was writing in lisp. 17:46:26 drewc: of course you friends were like 'I use lisp because it is pragmatic and more efficient blah blah' 17:46:42 folks, do you know p2p software uses tcp or udp? 17:46:59 both? 17:47:01 leo2007: Certainly TCP, possibly also UDP. 17:47:39 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:48 -!- moah [~gnu@188.109.124.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:49:13 moah [~gnu@dslb-084-063-218-019.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:27 I just installed a broadband and shared with a few people and I found out I merely have enough bandwidth for myself. See this: http://imagebin.org/93297 17:49:52 besides it takes an investment of time to learn a language before you can get benefit from it 17:49:54 I am the only person running macosx. 17:50:07 leo2007: that's a bit off-topic, isn't it? 17:50:28 fatblueduck: learning itself is beneficial 17:50:33 stassats: it is. sorry about that. 17:50:51 stassats: yes that's true 17:51:16 no wait, I got exposed to Lisp by rydis mocking my interest in Python: "when are you going to start using a /real/ language?" 17:51:39 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:51:47 stassats: why is learning itself beneficial? 17:52:13 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:47 a culture in growth is generally good for the soul? this sounds abstract but I have found it to be true. 17:53:33 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 17:53:34 phryk: it's good for the brain 17:53:53 Elench [~jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:53:55 -!- Elench [~jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Changing host] 17:53:55 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 17:54:06 Isn't any kind of mental challenge good for the brain? 17:54:21 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has left #lisp 17:54:22 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 17:54:22 I'll admit that "cool" and "mysterious" do attract, and played a bit in my initial research, but the reason I actually ended up here was when I had researched it more (after more than one abortive take on Scheme) and found it... good. Just good, unlike how PHP or Java felt :) 17:54:39 phryk: the one you haven't seen before is better 17:54:53 Ah 17:55:00 but i'm no expert in that, so don't take my word for it 17:56:14 fatblueduck: i still think you're projecting... and i still don't think lisp is 'cool' or 'popular' or 'hip' :) 17:56:21 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:22 and it sometimes helps to look at your existing problems from a different perspective 17:56:23 I was surprised when I found out that neurons can regenerate... 17:56:44 yeah, but can they forget the trauma of Lisp? 17:56:58 RIP, rydis 17:57:00 and going through the TRAVERSE function? 17:57:05 rydis? 17:57:07 tcr, yes. :| 17:57:08 Probably not^^ 17:57:09 Fare, 17:57:12 tcr: indeed :( 17:57:19 Fare, Martin "rydis" Rydström. Used to be a channel regular. 17:57:20 seems like lispers die young 17:57:42 that was a few years ago 17:57:45 info in Swedish: http://mikael.jansson.be/rydis 17:57:47 Yes. 17:58:18 jmc is alive and kicking! 17:58:53 palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:217:f2ff:fee7:72d7] has joined #lisp 17:59:09 -!- palter_ [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter_] 17:59:09 -!- palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:217:f2ff:fee7:72d7] has quit [Client Quit] 17:59:23 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:59:27 so can you give ASDF 1.703 and POIU 1.010 a good try? 17:59:41 -!- glogic_ [~rm@97.76.48.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:01:35 stassats: jmc was never really a lisper ... he wrote in RFSE and expected others to translate it to lisp for him :P 18:02:08 "RFSE"? 18:02:22 Recursive Functions of Symbolic Expressions 18:02:26 Ah. 18:02:39 as distinct from the LISt PRocessor 18:02:48 e 18:02:49 er 18:02:51 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:55 LISt Processor 18:03:18 LISt ProcEssoR? 18:03:26 ha! :D 18:03:39 stassats: unfortunately, lately I found that maybe getting some *fresh* "hip and cool" would be a great way to get people interested and actually willing to develop extra libs etc. which would give advantages for everyone :) 18:03:42 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:03:45 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-191-172.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:04:00 what's unfresh "hip and cool"? 18:04:04 p_l: yeah! 18:04:07 sbcl web page 18:04:13 fiveop: the jackson 5 18:04:15 lisp web page 18:04:19 those need to look hip 18:04:28 fatblueduck: better get on that then! 18:04:41 drewc: I made some sbcl mock-ups 18:04:53 it should be secret, if everyone will be using lisp it wouldn't be hip anymore 18:04:55 fatblueduck: are they hip and mysterious? 18:04:55 but I don't feel entirely welcome to submit them 18:04:56 In SBCL 1.0.35 I get (format nil "~,2F" 0.001) => "0.001". Is that a bug or I just don't quite understand how ~F is supposed to work?... 18:05:09 drewc: they are an improvement on what is there 18:05:34 Hexstream: It might be both, given how many problems there've been in that area. 18:05:55 fatblueduck: so what's stopping you from suggesting them to sbcl-devel? 18:06:12 -!- nipra_ [~nipra@115.118.109.201] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:06:35 nyef: Just the kind of definitive, practical answer I expected! 18:06:53 Hexstream: I get different behaviour. 18:06:55 drewc: I'm busy with something atm and don't want to commit to anything right now, but I did plan to submit myself to it soon... 18:07:00 glogic [~rm@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 18:07:08 i get the same 18:07:09 Hexstream: Maybe your sbcl has a long beard? 18:07:34 on 37.44 18:07:37 1.0.35 isn't bald OR bearded 18:07:39 Maybe. I don't really trail SBCL versions aggressively. 18:07:52 oh indeed I've got a typo 18:08:14 "1.0.37.37", same as OP 18:08:26 also... I'm not totally confident in my designs and need some time to think them over... I've written the html for one of the designs but decided I didn't like it. 18:08:39 I could upload to imageshack 18:08:43 seems like a off-by-one 18:09:11 has the #S reading bug been fixed? 18:10:02 a use for slime-format-string-expand! 18:10:41 Phoodus [foo@174-26-247-120.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:46 semyon421 [~semyon@109.188.17.234] has joined #lisp 18:11:58 p_l: with regards to 'hip and cool' and libs, i find that libs developed by newbies are usually shite, and the type of people who are attracted to 'hip and cool' are likely to remain newbies forever as they chase the latest trend. 18:12:23 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:28 p_l: similar to how your favorite underground band becomes worse as they get more popular i suppose :P 18:12:57 this is true also, but some people stick 18:13:11 i don't want to see too much of that in the lisp ecosystem personally, i'd rather people come to lisp because it's boring and stodgy and stable and working. 18:13:22 I believe I'm beyond the monkey-tricks stage with lisp 18:13:27 and I'm still here 18:13:44 fatblueduck: Monkey-tricks? 18:15:01 -!- semyon421 [~semyon@109.188.17.234] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:17 semyon421 [~semyon@109.188.17.234] has joined #lisp 18:15:50 marioxcc [~user@200.92.176.147] has joined #lisp 18:16:00 yeah, monkey-tricks is where I'm not doing anything high-level 18:16:08 jpanest [~jpanest@174-143-154-194.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:21 but on the low-level I can accomplish a broad range of basic tasks 18:16:43 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 18:17:31 rread [~rread@63.204.222.2] has joined #lisp 18:18:13 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:18:27 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 18:18:33 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082DEEB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:06 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:19:40 -!- rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:19:48 -!- rread [~rread@63.204.222.2] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:50 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082C176.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:20:32 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:20:41 rread [~rread@63.204.222.2] has joined #lisp 18:20:52 stassats, can you explain the backquote and struct issue from 1.0.36.21 ? 18:20:53 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:21:31 Fare: i wrote it some time ago and nikodemus modified it, so i can't say offhand, i'll try to look at it later 18:21:45 lemoinem [~swoog@66.51.248.77] has joined #lisp 18:21:47 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:22:13 would be great, it's blocking #() inside #S 18:22:42 drewc: ah, but it's all part of my nefarious plan to sieve through the newbies to find nuggets :D 18:23:08 p_l, then you eat the nuggets with ketchup? 18:23:21 Fare: invest them :3 18:23:31 (as in nuggets of gold) 18:23:37 p_l seems like a sweet-n-sour kind of guy 18:23:54 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:24:51 sb-impl:flonum-to-digits isn't the easiest thing to understand 18:25:26 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 18:26:17 the "unfresh hip and cool" stuff I mentioned is the kind that promised all that enlightenment etc. - I just want to get a kind of PR that makes that stability and usability of language be packaged in attractive fashion. Old, obsolete information from early 90's if not earlier sometimes raises its ugly head when I'm trying to convince someone that me offering to do a project in Lisp. 18:26:24 afk - back to cleaning. 18:27:37 Wombat1 [~willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:40 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:46 -!- Wombat1 [~willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has left #lisp 18:28:37 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:29:44 -!- semyon421 [~semyon@109.188.17.234] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:30:55 noob question incoming - so if I have what PCL calls a destructuring parameter list (var othervar endvar) as a nested list in my macro definition I can use var, othervar and endvar because lisp will break that list down into its solitary components? 18:31:39 Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-28.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:31:46 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 18:32:12 yes, it will destructure the list 18:33:34 lp 309093 18:33:35 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/309093 18:34:21 hmm, what's a good name for the set of distinct words in a corpus? it's not a dictionary... 18:34:42 -!- rread [~rread@63.204.222.2] has quit [Quit: rread] 18:34:53 lexicon? 18:35:12 arbscht: thanks, that's apt 18:36:03 Axius [~hi@109.97.35.34] has joined #lisp 18:36:12 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:09 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:38:01 Wombat1 [~willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:06 -!- Wombat1 [~willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has left #lisp 18:38:54 stassats: thanks 18:38:58 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:50 -!- trsh [trsh@93-138-99-58.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:40:55 -!- Axius [~hi@109.97.35.34] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41:02 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:41:51 I think the fix is in sharp-left-paren to test for (not (plusp *backquote-count*)) instead of (zerop *backquote-count*) 18:41:52 Fare: seems like the issue is with what Xof wrote on sbcl-devel 18:42:16 i had *backquote-count* bound to zero in my original patch 18:42:38 there might be a useful function (defun reading-backquote-p () (plusp *backquote-count*)) 18:42:43 what does the -1 do? 18:42:54 is that a convention to forbid backquotes? 18:43:10 i don't know, nikodemus changed it to -1, perhaps accidentally 18:43:32 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:43:32 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:39 seangrove [~user@64.134.19.192] has joined #lisp 18:43:49 i don't see a reason why it should be -1, but my understanding of the whole thing is a little bit rusty 18:44:25 skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 18:44:28 I suppose nikodemus wanted -1 as "it's forbidden". Maybe should (1) use NIL instead, catching errors where only numbers are wanted. 18:44:45 and providing an easy flag "it's allowed vs forbidden". 18:45:22 but he didn't propagate such a change. 18:45:34 yeah, 0 might be appropriate 18:45:46 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 18:46:00 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-nzfjwkbvcsqqymul] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:46:49 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-fwkeskxbtjzoexxl] has joined #lisp 18:47:41 francogrex [~user@19.124-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:48:46 some guy mentioned using swig a little while earlier here... can someone advise on the advantage of using swig to interface C code rather than using CFFI directly (or implementation specific ffi as well)? 18:48:47 p_l: ha, exactly. promoting lisp to the type of people that hire programmers is an excellent goal :) 18:49:03 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:22 francogrex: swig generates CFFI code. CFFI generates implementation specific FFI code. 18:50:13 implementation specific FFI generates platform-specific code.... 18:50:15 drewc: ok; to the comment above: it is difficult rto convince people who hire programmers to adopt any new programming language 18:50:26 example: pharma companies 18:50:30 -!- skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 18:50:40 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:50:49 skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 18:50:49 -!- skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Client Quit] 18:50:51 francogrex: i have not found it difficult to convince people who are interested in hiring _me_ to let me use my tool of choice. 18:50:55 those are stuck in whatever the federal regulations have imposed on them 18:51:29 i want to work in lisp, not for pharma companies, so that works out for me. 18:51:33 depends on who you are dealing with; I doubt large pharmaceutical companies 18:51:34 the advantage to swig it the number of langs it provided a FFI for 18:51:43 *is 18:52:23 those are stuck in whatever FDA (or what have you) imposes on them 18:52:27 skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 18:52:27 -!- skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:28 *stassats* goes back to sb-impl:flonum-to-digits, oh dear 18:52:29 if you have a vested interested in working for large pharma companies, that that's a choice. My choice would be for lisp, as i couldn't give a toss about pharma :) 18:52:36 vested interest* 18:53:52 JuanDaugherty: ok, but nothing particularly spectacular for lisp i guess, because lisp already has many well developed interfaces to C code right? 18:54:13 y 18:54:34 *provides 18:54:56 -!- pix4 [~pixel@dslb-188-101-133-236.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:55:20 it would provide that for any c/c++ app 18:55:33 lisp implementations coded in C being no exception 18:56:02 jmbr [~jmbr@44.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:56:34 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:57:03 drewc: basically, what I meant by hip&cool is to make all the information that we *know*, like good points of using lisp, the fact that there *are* libraries, that there *is* support, and that it *isn't* some extremely hard language to use (and find programmers for). Not to mention that modern implementations aren't slow at all. 18:57:28 now package that into a nice, not too flashy, "web 2.0" form 18:57:37 and make it easy to find with google etc. 18:57:53 p_l: if you're willing to do the work, common-lisp.net can be that source of information 18:58:05 and should be. 18:59:10 minion: features of common lisp 18:59:11 features of common lisp: Features of Common Lisp, a one-page summary of what makes Common Lisp unique: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 18:59:31 that really should be on the front page of cl-net, for example :) 19:00:08 trsh [trsh@93-139-98-185.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:00:42 drewc: I was thinking of binding together various websites that already exist, give them face-lifting (and search engine love) and work on the content - this way, no real duplication of work would happen. 19:02:10 c-l.net as equivalent to RubyForge, let's say, cl-user.net for directory etc., freshened-up Cliki, planet lisp, and some nice and automated (currently lispy-based) tool for managing libs etc. 19:02:14 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-76-230-233-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:52 crod [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:03:42 also, given how both drewc and beach seem looking for people to offload work, maybe an extension of lispjobs. 19:04:08 sounds like pretty much what i had in mind, and what i would do given the time. 19:04:11 rent-a-lisper? 19:04:11 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:05:03 p_l: if you can convince me you're the guy who should be doing this, i can even find a way to pay you. :) 19:06:44 drewc: I'm currently in the gruesome process of "get my life back on track" but I'm working a little on the look of the pages (it's useful for me in more than one way) and on the packaging, which got more urgent after ASDF, SBCL and clbuild fought each other yesterday (specific to my system, I think) 19:06:53 -!- mathrick is now known as dumbfoone 19:07:37 stassats: maybe, but with better interface and workflow. oDesk is quite nice. 19:07:58 p_l: see, the thing is that a lot of people, myself included, have started down that very road only to take an early fork and and up far off the beaten path. 19:08:14 *drewc* stretched the hell out of that metaphor! 19:08:29 heh 19:09:15 -!- dumbfoone is now known as mathrick 19:09:22 new ASDF takes care of some of the stuff I was planning to work on, and lispy & clbuild give quite a nice framework to work on. I also don't have to build stuff like cl-user.net or c-l.net from scratch :-) 19:09:27 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:44 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:09:56 drewc: with each person that went down that road, new artifacts are left, and someday we might assemble them well enough ;-) 19:10:02 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 19:10:02 p_l: did ASDF win the fight? 19:10:03 right, so the best course of action is to identify a great starting point that can be done quickly and have the most impact. 19:10:46 drewc: my current plan is a mix of lispy & clbuild, implemented completely in lisp as a cli utility. 19:10:58 p_l: in my opinion, starting with the front page of common-lisp.net is what will have the most immediate impact. 19:11:10 the front page + extended info 19:11:22 one that can be painlessly switched to, and which could be used as "install that and you get everything working in no time" 19:12:02 I haven't yet looked into common-lisp.net, but I already looked into "findability" of SBCL webpage 19:12:11 peterbb [~peterbb@ves1-1x-dhcp356.uio.no] has joined #lisp 19:12:22 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 19:12:43 an 'authoritative' source of 'why lisp, how to get lisp, popular libraries, FAQ' etc is more important, imo, then yet another package mananger that may or may not see adoption. 19:12:59 when i search lisp in google it has "sponsored Links: Steel Bank Common Lisp" 19:13:05 wow, I didn't know there was a russian translation for pcl! 19:13:26 stassats: I think that might have something to do with nikodemus. 19:13:27 *stassats* translated a part of a chapter for it 19:13:30 I would like to be involved with this web development, though I understand if my help is not wanted 19:13:57 fatblueduck, help is always wanted 19:14:04 woah, why doesn't sbcl.org show up in the normal results for "common lisp" 19:14:10 fatblueduck: help is always welocome :) 19:14:23 fatblueduck, the TODO list for anything is infinite. Pick something you like, work up the TODO list. 19:14:40 it's all the way down at result #17 19:14:46 even GCL is higher on the list 19:14:48 that's pretty terrible. 19:15:00 this is because common-lisp.net is not what it should be! 19:15:14 stassats: and as far as I can see.. the translation looks pretty good! 19:15:34 clisp is result #2. 19:15:39 google gives big SEO juice to something that has the search term as its domain name, and to whatever that page links to 19:15:53 drewc: well, I haven't yet looked into your proposal. It's just that I started working on packaging before, so it got a little momentum on my side. I might ping you in few weeks with some designs and maybe even text. 19:16:09 I'm most interested in web development 19:16:12 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:16:13 (I think I'm better creative fiction writer than copywriter...) 19:16:42 p_l: just thought i'd throw the idea out there :). fatblueduck, the same applies to you (or to anybody who is watching)... 19:17:01 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 19:17:06 i've identified a problem that i want solved, and if someone is willing to help solve it, i'm willing to help them help me :) 19:17:41 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:17:53 ... maybe something like launchpad or whatever to coordinate such work? I'm all for decentralized systems, but it sometimes makes it hard to follow :D 19:18:21 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-117-233.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:18:31 drewc: did you get my query? 19:18:35 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 19:19:09 we could probably do a better job with our meta tags 19:19:13 in fact I think p_l already has 19:19:19 Krystof: indeed 19:20:43 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:45 p_l: set it up and point me to it 19:22:10 dmsh_ [~dmsh@ppp91-78-86-102.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:23:43 -!- dmsh [~dmsh@ppp91-77-133-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:25:01 dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:25:06 How do you set a breakpoint in SLIME+SBCL? Or don't you? 19:25:42 just put (break) somewhere 19:25:58 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 19:26:16 I was afraid of that. 19:26:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@adsl-207-214-87-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:27:02 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:27:19 nyef: if you want a breakpoint at a function call, (trace fun :break t :condition ...) 19:27:23 does something in CLISP call system or some other subprocess during compilation? 19:27:42 nah, during load. 19:27:54 fda314925 [~fda314925@211.239.124.232] has joined #lisp 19:28:06 *Fare* has to inspect his libraries for funky #+clisp behaviour... 19:28:11 Okay, what I'm doing is putting myself in the mindset that I have when dealing with debugging in something like VB6, and trying to apply that mindset to SBCL+SLIME. 19:28:56 so, you're up to work on a better single stepper? 19:29:02 And it might be partially whatever default optimize policy is in place, but this is an -embarrassment-. 19:29:44 Single stepper? I'd be happy with the ability to set breakpoints easily and see call sites in the source buffers, etc. 19:30:51 ... It's B in sldb to bounce to the "normal" debugger, isn't it? 19:31:01 it doesn't work at the moment 19:31:11 *nyef* sighs. 19:32:07 Well, my debuggee thread is not doing its thing, and there's a message on my startup repl about a debugger invocation, but I don't see the actual debugger anywhere. 19:32:13 tcr: when ASDF 2 is released, is there any chance of having better SLIME integration w/o ASDF-OUTPUT-TRANSLATIONS ? 19:32:38 ? 19:33:02 ideally, C-c C-k would be using the A-O-T to determine where to store the file. 19:33:18 maybe SLIME itself would use A-O-T to store its own fasls. 19:33:27 -!- seangrove [~user@64.134.19.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:33:41 I think there's something to customize where slime stores the fasls created via C-c C-k 19:33:49 there is 19:34:08 namely, (setq slime-compile-file-options '(:fasl-directory "/home/stas/lisp/fasls/from-slime/")) 19:36:30 Okay, how do I unwedge this? 19:38:06 Using slime-list-threads brings up a buffer worth of threads with no documentation worth mentioning and doesn't seem to do anything, and I still don't know what's up with the thread that was in the debugger. 19:38:27 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-40-75.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:26 *nyef* is about ready to write this off as a bad job, kill his lisp image, and find something else to hack on for a while. 19:41:11 sbcl doesn't provide much details about threads now 19:41:17 but you can kill them 19:41:24 Well, would help if you could describe what you did to find yourself into that situation 19:41:53 I was working on whostate support for sbcl, but haven't finished it 19:42:12 you can use `d' in the slime-list buffer to interrupt-thread #'break a thread 19:42:13 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.176.147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:30 make sure to press `c' (and not `q') in the debugger though in order to invoke the continue restart 19:42:35 -!- Edward__ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-28.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:43:15 cddr [~user@5ac75e68.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:29 Okay, I started up an SBCL image from the shell and executed (swank:create-server :dont-close t). Then, from emacs, I loaded my project, and ran (sb-thread:make-thread #'my-function :name "Whatever"). 19:43:46 A few calls deep into my-function there was a breakpoint. 19:43:52 (Well, (break).) 19:43:59 So that popped up in SLDB. 19:44:17 I hit B to try and get the SBCL debugger, figuring that I might be able to see what's what better from there. 19:44:44 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-76-230-233-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:45:28 I tried slime-list-threads, which popped up a buffer with no appreciable mode documentation, and no documentation for any of its keybindings. 19:45:40 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 19:46:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.95.3] 19:47:02 The refresh option looked pointless to start with, and the kill option looked fatal, so I started with "attach", which caused the startup repl to say something about spawning a new swank server and emacs to pop an elisp backtrace. 19:47:25 Neither the debug nor the kill options seemed to do anything. 19:47:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:47:45 On the whole, I'm underwhelmed. 19:48:41 why is default-imlementations.lisp one of the last files loaded by bordeaux-threads? 19:49:07 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:49:10 doesn't seem to work when loaded by the latest asdf 19:49:27 Hey, sbcl nerds. Would you like to see https://insidelisp.blogspot.com/ on planet sbcl? 19:49:35 cddr: the old %make-thread doesn't exist? 19:50:01 yeah 19:50:24 Xach: Seems odd, something about an invalid security certificate? 19:50:30 when I moved it up to the top, it worked fine but would that break other things? 19:50:49 nyef: my bad. foolish chrome has stopped showing http:// in front of urls, so i have to manually add it back in all the time, and sometimes i screw up. 19:51:03 Ah, okay 19:51:07 it's http://insidelisp.blogspot.com/ 19:51:18 cddr: which "latest ASDF" is it? 19:51:19 *Xach* is going to add it anyway 19:51:27 1.700 is broken, use 1.703. 19:51:34 nyef: that is not slime's fault 19:51:56 tcr: The complete lack of documentation? 19:51:57 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:01 nyef: try (sb-thread:make-thread #'(lambda () (invoke-debugger (make-condition 'warning)))) in a terminal executing sbcl 19:52:47 the only thing that's completel about "complete lack of documentation" is that that's completely not true 19:52:55 I just pulled 5 minutes ago 19:53:15 Okay, lack of documentation anywhere obvious in emacs? 19:53:25 cddr: there might be more bugs in ASDF 1.703. Please pastebot any error. 19:53:40 cddr: i've seen that bug in many versions of asdf 19:54:19 stassats: thanks for mentioning it on lisp.reddit.com 19:54:21 cddr: have never been able to come up with a reliable test case though. 19:54:40 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@thingy.cs.umass.edu] has joined #lisp 19:55:22 ok cool, I'll revert my changes to bordeaux-threads and should be able to reproduce 19:56:32 nyef: You're annoying by limitations of sbcl, not of slime. 19:56:36 sorry 19:56:39 annoyed 19:57:21 Quite possible, except for where I'm annoyed by slime not syncing up with what I expect from emacs. 19:57:40 skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 19:57:43 nyef: what you're doing and what you're expecting to see? 19:57:58 You're annoyed because the keybindings in slime-list-threads are not documented? 19:58:07 That's one aspect, yes. 19:58:45 that particular bordeaux-threads error is a pain in the neck. 19:58:54 -!- konr [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:59 although removing fasls definitely gets past it.. 19:59:02 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 20:00:38 *Fare* regenerates dependencies, retries building qres with a xcvb/poiu toolchain... 20:01:40 http://paste.lisp.org/display/97891 20:02:35 rtra_ [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 20:02:46 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA9AC9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:59 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:03:14 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-72-253.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:03:18 cddr: where's the error? 20:03:26 can you annotate with an error log? 20:03:34 ah sorry 20:04:07 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-70-97.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:13 maden [~maden@dsl-144-81.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 20:04:34 cddr does it work when there are no fasls present? 20:04:40 alama [~alama@a95-95-128-109.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:05:25 be back in a minute, gotta go eat sorry 20:06:37 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:07:10 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-128-109.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:23 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:08:18 Krystof: I do have some changes that make sbcl.org webpage better looking for search engines, but I haven't yet merged them with the code that generates them every release - as soon as I do that, I'll send a patch. So far, those patches do nearly nothing to how the page *looks*, but I'm going to look into desigining new look for c-l.net, sbcl.org, cl-user.net and cliki. 20:09:54 my life would be a lot less complicated if I knew how to make things look good by myself. :) 20:10:10 as it stands, i find that a lot of time gets eaten talking to designers. 20:10:30 Paint them black 20:11:02 p_l: you might want to co-ordinate with fatblueduck, who was just shown me some ideas for a redesigned cl-net that i like. 20:11:12 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 20:11:29 p_l: just so you know, I'm not terribly excited by a new look sbcl.org 20:12:05 I can be overruled 20:13:36 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:14:31 sbcl.org has a new look? 20:15:32 JuanDaugherty: I tested some simple examples with swing and cffi; it doesn't translate the body of the c function, only the function name and the args; is it normal? 20:15:45 that was *swig* 20:16:02 of course 20:16:16 it's just an interface generator 20:16:22 egoz [~Egoz@202.70.51.140] has joined #lisp 20:16:32 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:16:55 Kustnamenkloate [titan@unaffiliated/appetite] has joined #lisp 20:17:57 ok; 20:18:40 Is there a way for SBCL to introspect about its memory allocation at runtime? 20:18:48 i still prefer compiling the C code into a dll and have it called from there 20:18:55 francogrex: swig is not a C->foo compiler, it's for generating FFI code so that calls from foo->C can be generated automatically 20:18:57 rpg: ROOM? 20:19:02 francogrex: you are confused 20:19:47 drewc: but then still need to have the c code into a dll that is invoked 20:20:04 Fare: is it just me or doesn't it seem that cddr might just be in the wrong package? 20:20:33 francogrex: of course, what is it you are expecting? 20:20:47 well, i suppose you could statically link the code as well, but that's not the point 20:21:10 it's better a dll for me 20:21:22 nyef: is there a way I can extract from room's output how much control stack allocation I have? 20:22:03 Ah. Probably not. 20:22:45 Control stack bounds are, IIRC, part of the thread structure. 20:22:53 francogrex: think about it for a second... did you really expect swig to translate C code into whatever language(s) you choose, and that somehow loading that code would be equivalent to using the C code? 20:23:12 Unless they're special variables with TLS slots punned into the thread structure. 20:23:23 rread [~rread@63.204.222.2] has joined #lisp 20:23:30 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:23:32 And there's some way to get the current stack pointer. 20:24:12 nyef: We've suddenly been starting to get control stack problems with a program that's been around for a very long while, and trying to figure out why. 20:24:12 before testing it I thought it would; seemed to good to be true 20:24:19 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.2.38] has joined #lisp 20:24:50 francogrex: it seems like the worst idea i could possibly ever imagine! 20:24:50 -!- ejs [~eugen@11-249-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:25:12 yeah 20:25:41 ejs [~eugen@11-249-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:56 how do you translate "int *foo;" into python? 20:26:17 rpg: Ah that's a typo. But I get the same error if I change it to bt:make-thread 20:26:18 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:42 or CL? (make-array size-of-available-memory) and point into that? 20:26:55 i'm just sayin' 20:28:11 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:28:45 TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.147.35.40.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:29:08 drewc: (sb-alien:with-alien ((foo (* int))) ...)? 20:29:26 nyef: you haven't had any documentation on C-h m? 20:29:36 clhs sb-alien:with-alien 20:29:36 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for sb-alien:with-alien. 20:29:43 nyef: ^ ;) 20:29:59 drewc: No, no... You need an implementation of common lisp with python. :-P 20:30:09 stassats: In this case, the only documentation is a list of keybindings and a comment about some hook run on startup. 20:30:11 nyef: fair enough :) 20:31:50 tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:40 cddr: Possibly the best thing to do would be to get back to a clean lisp with the new asdf and then do: 20:34:01 (asdf::traverse (make-instance 'asdf:load-op) (asdf:find-system :bordeaux-threads)) 20:34:42 and paste the results. One hopes that something will leap out at you as a missing or mis-ordered operation. I don't use b-t, so I can't help much beyond that. 20:35:07 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:36:37 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 20:37:46 -!- merl15__ [~merl@188-22-25-173.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:37:59 -!- rread [~rread@63.204.222.2] has quit [Quit: rread] 20:38:43 -!- ejs [~eugen@11-249-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:39:28 nyef: alright, that's only what we have now 20:40:48 -!- francogrex [~user@19.124-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:17 rpg, it's not just you 20:41:34 rpg, what do you think of ASDF 1.703 ? 20:42:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.95.3] 20:43:38 SBCL 1.0.37.57 on linux amd64 stuck at :RUN-PROGRAM :INHERIT-STDIN from /home/fare/cl/sbcl/tests/run-program.impure.lisp 20:44:06 Fare: I haven't had a chance to test it yet (other than to run the test suite, which seems ok). I need to investigate A-B-L somewhat more --- running over a bunch of our internal systems. 20:45:27 Fare: past few weeks have been brutal. On top of conference paper writing, I foolishly volunteered to be on a distinguished dissertation board, so I have four books to read and review. 20:45:44 Books are great, but my non-work hours are badly oversubscribed. 20:47:52 Lis [~Lis@p5B204329.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:05 I will test my pont-to-lisp op this evening. I /should/ write some A-B-L-compat tests, but don't know when I'll get the time. 20:49:22 BTW, did my new test work for you? 20:51:57 merl15__ [~merl@188-22-168-148.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:55:23 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 20:56:10 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:22 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:44 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:58:35 Say (with-deadline (:seconds 0.2) (sleep 1.0)), and after 0.2 seconds a deadline is signaled, a handler is run, and the deadline is deferred; how long should SLEEP in your opinion continue sleeping? 0.8seconds? 0.8seconds - time elapsed? 20:59:32 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:36 Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-112-99.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:59:42 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 20:59:55 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:35 -!- davertron [~Dave@74-92-46-229-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:00:53 ejs [~eugen@94-248-33-13.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 21:01:12 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 21:01:13 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-70-97.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:04:52 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:24 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 21:07:40 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.20] has joined #lisp 21:08:30 Krystof: I actually wasn't even thinking about *new* look for sbcl.org till I think nyef mentioned that changes to it could be a problem - my main reason towards any changes was (gulp) the google search position. 21:09:15 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-157-197.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:09:23 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:33 I'm quite content with how it looks (well, small changes related to typography and semantics of the html were involved in my prototype) 21:17:17 dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:17:38 i'm all for a much less ancient looking web style 21:17:49 for both sbcl and cl.net 21:18:19 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-40-75.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23:38 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-40-75.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:53 it's not that bad 21:25:06 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:24 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754151.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:47 Fade: what's wrong with them ? 21:26:06 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:26:10 they look dated 21:26:18 so what ? 21:26:21 adamvh [~adamvh@c-98-250-50-106.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:26 *Fade* shrugs 21:26:27 no flashing ads? 21:26:40 yeah, 'cause that's what 'current' means. :) 21:26:42 they're very light and don't contain superfluous graphical stuff 21:27:23 TR2N` [email@89-180-216-232.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 21:27:29 they should contain registration and the ability to make friends, post twits? 21:27:53 -!- egoz [~Egoz@202.70.51.140] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:27:55 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.216.232] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:27:56 I just think they shouldn't be ugly. i'm aware that 'ugly' is a subjective assessment. 21:27:58 stassats: god no! 21:28:01 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 21:28:16 stassats: yeah, where's the addthis button? 21:28:21 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:28 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:28:36 p_l: you wanna be cool'n'hip? 21:28:51 The only stuff I did when I was experimenting on sbcl.org was some typography and changes related to code layout, while preserving "visual" layout. 21:29:01 foom: if you have time someday, maybe you can help me figure out what's so wrong about XCVB, and put me on the right track. 21:29:03 stassats: there are many kinds of cool'n'hip 21:29:15 if we're going to get all adjectival, how 'bout 'elegant'? 21:29:23 for example, I still didn't get sold on twitter. 21:29:36 and yes, for SBCL or C-L.net I was looking for elegant. 21:29:38 XCVB's notion of grain identity is both complex and poor. 21:31:45 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:35:10 -!- ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:36:18 ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:40:19 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 21:40:58 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:43:51 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229107151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:44:34 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [] 21:44:40 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 21:46:57 Wombatzus [~user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:01 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-40-75.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it] 21:47:44 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@ANantes-151-1-112-99.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:37 Curtis_B [~Curtis_B@173-11-47-129-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:38 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-90-141.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:53:27 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 21:53:33 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A6EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:55:01 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has quit [Quit: qbomb] 21:56:13 -!- zorn [~jz@206-248-133-244.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:58:16 zorn [~jz@206-248-152-69.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:17 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@44.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:04:53 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:06:17 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:07:43 -!- Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:08:03 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 22:10:38 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Client Quit] 22:13:24 wgl` [~wgl@88.sub-75-205-240.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:28 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:13:34 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:16:55 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 22:18:27 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-150-154.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:18:53 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:19:00 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:24 Is there a built in function to copy a CLOS object? 22:21:34 no 22:22:25 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:22:41 how, then, does one iterate over slots of a CLOS object so that I may roll my own? 22:22:42 you can copy structs, though. 22:22:57 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77.46.202.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:23:08 Unfortunately, the code rather relies on CLOS features, so structs are not an option 22:23:13 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:23:31 multiple inheritance? 22:24:00 adamvh: mop:class-slots 22:24:56 do the mop additions come with SBCL, or is that something that I need to asdf-install? 22:25:03 they're in sbcl 22:25:07 sb-mop iirc 22:25:13 mop package in sbcl is sb-mop 22:25:24 Thanks. 22:25:31 there's also c2mop if you want to pretend you're going to be portable. 22:25:33 but if you want portability, you need something like closer-mop 22:25:50 palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:217:f2ff:fee7:72d7] has joined #lisp 22:25:52 minion: closer-mop? 22:25:53 closer-mop: Closer to MOP is a compatibility layer that rectifies many of the absent or incorrect MOP features as detected by MOP Feature Tests. http://www.cliki.net/closer-mop 22:26:13 I believe that I have already downloaded closer-mop for some library or other; I suppose I will use that 22:26:54 -!- OsamaBinWOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WAAAAAAAAGH!!] 22:26:56 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:31 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:28:31 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-248-33-13.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:34:18 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:35:39 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:57 angie [~Angie@unaffiliated/angie] has joined #lisp 22:38:38 -!- dmsh_ [~dmsh@ppp91-78-86-102.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:40:00 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:08 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA9AC9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:42:07 -!- palter_ [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter_] 22:42:07 -!- palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:217:f2ff:fee7:72d7] has quit [Quit: palter_] 22:44:24 palter_ [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:16 mogunus [~marco@174-152-106-169.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:41 -!- Samuel9999 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has quit [Quit: co co] 22:47:46 -!- wgl` [~wgl@88.sub-75-205-240.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:51:20 quidnunc [~user@70.49.122.16] has joined #lisp 22:53:26 Joreji [~thomas@91-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:54:05 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-98-250-50-106.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 22:54:59 marioxcc [~user@200.92.176.147] has joined #lisp 22:55:06 alama [~alama@a95-95-128-109.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:55:33 any weblocks hackers out there? 22:57:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@91-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:00:55 Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 23:02:39 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has quit [Quit: palter] 23:02:40 -!- palter_ is now known as palter 23:03:43 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-150-154.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:04:34 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:04:47 -!- mogunus [~marco@174-152-106-169.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:06:59 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 23:09:16 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:12:56 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 23:14:30 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:16:28 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:30 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 23:23:29 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:29 nus- [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 23:25:11 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:27:09 fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 23:30:40 -!- merl15__ [~merl@188-22-168-148.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:30:55 -!- fatblueduck [~duck@pool-71-104-235-97.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:31:46 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:02 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:10 -!- rtra_ [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:36:48 dmsh [~dmsh@ppp91-78-86-102.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 23:42:16 hagabaka [~quassel@unaffiliated/hagabaka] has joined #lisp 23:42:39 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:21 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:44:25 fhoahf38771 [~Gla@200-55-110-251.dsl.prima.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:44:30 -!- fhoahf38771 [~Gla@200-55-110-251.dsl.prima.net.ar] has left #lisp 23:48:42 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:51:16 I saw an example using the "amb" operator . Is there a general way to solve optimization problems with it? For example, give some choices of values for A, and some choices of values for B, which can be functions of A, and find the values for A and B which minimizes some f(A, B)? 23:52:52 more efficiently than iterating all choices 23:56:53 -!- benny [~benny@i577A761D.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:57:28 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:59:04 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid]