00:00:18 methods don't work on types 00:00:45 okay, i follow 00:00:46 thanks 00:01:53 -!- tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 00:02:15 TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.147.69.105.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 00:02:37 nyef: http://lofi.forum.physorg.com/Voluntary-Erythropoiesis-Smoking&%2333%3B_19857.html 00:02:57 -!- Madsy^ [~madman@ti0207a340-0553.bb.online.no] has quit [] 00:03:02 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:38 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 00:03:58 nyef: some interesting 'smoking is healthy' arguments there :) 00:05:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:06:58 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:08:46 -!- rabuf [~chatzilla@ip68-230-168-93.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 00:09:47 I believe smokers have less stress 00:10:33 better sex lives as well? maybe... 00:11:24 Madsy [~Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 00:11:43 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:12:22 -!- peterbb [~peterbb@ves1-1x-dhcp356.uio.no] has left #lisp 00:14:06 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:15 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 00:20:06 *drewc* misses smoking. 00:20:16 fatblueduck: Nicotine is a vasoconstrictor, so it can make getting an erection a bit difficult. And I'm pretty sure it also increases stress. 00:20:41 -!- wgl [~wgl@175.sub-75-204-33.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:21:29 fatblueduck: The apparent "relaxation" is just a reprieve from the withdrawl that you go through between cigarettes. 00:22:13 sellout: WRT stress, smokers use smoking to cope with it... mostly because they are poorly equiped to deal with high-stress situations and have turned to smoking as a crutch. 00:22:14 i have the same effect with lisp 00:22:34 sellout: but what about all of the interesting people you meet when you go for a smoke? Isn't it less stressful when you have friends? 00:22:44 Tordek_ [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-tgnvubnffbpflltu] has joined #lisp 00:23:00 -!- Tordek_ [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-tgnvubnffbpflltu] has quit [Client Quit] 00:23:03 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 00:23:17 actually the points made are fairly convincing and I don't know why I carry on 00:23:34 <_3b`> but they all smell horrible due to being smokers :p 00:23:52 _3b`: another advantage of smoking! you can't smell how much your friends stink! 00:24:04 _3b`: what about the sexy ones? 00:24:29 i smell horribly after meeting with smoker friends 00:24:31 _3b`: I'm sure you could overlook a small smell 00:25:30 <_3b`> it isn't a small smell :/ 00:25:48 <_3b`> i have to shower when i get home from visiting smoking friends 00:26:24 <_3b`> luckily i'm not allergic enough to not be able to visit them at all 00:27:17 bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.74.235] has joined #lisp 00:27:20 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:48 -!- bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.74.235] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:28:11 fatblueduck: did you quit smoking? 00:28:24 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:36 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.235] has joined #lisp 00:28:56 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:30:37 wolgo: I did 00:30:46 wolgo: I ran in the LA Marathon last month 00:30:55 wolgo: so I think I'm over it 00:32:10 sweet 00:32:14 -!- heyhey [~4f9ea4d4@gateway/web/freenode/x-oledheqdzfldfvou] has left #lisp 00:32:15 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:32:21 I quit smoking about nine months ago 00:32:24 feels good 00:32:31 congrats on the marathon too 00:32:36 Arelius: http://blog.plt-scheme.org/2010/01/benchmarks.html -- not the fastest, but certainly not "sub-par" 00:32:39 that is a pretty big achievement imho 00:33:15 tgoodsell [~tgoodsell@pool-71-174-251-39.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:23 Arelius: And as for the chicken ffi, last time I looked it was nowhere close to the plt ffi. (Except for the little used egg for dynamic loading of libraries, which was kind of in the right direction.) 00:33:28 -!- tgoodsell [~tgoodsell@pool-71-174-251-39.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:34:05 tgg [~tgg@pool-71-174-251-39.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:14 eli: i was wondering when you'd respond to that bit :) 00:37:05 drewc: As soon as I was close to a computer, of course... 00:37:22 One with a proper screen, keyboard, and a running vnc -- which disqualifies my phone... 00:37:55 "quick, someone's wrong on the internet" 00:38:50 Fare: therep? 00:39:05 stassats`: That's not the correct quote -- should be "not now, dear, someone's *wrong* on the internet." 00:39:28 *eli* notes that he was quick to correct someone who was wrong in that quote. 00:39:51 that was a spherical quote in vacuum 00:40:00 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:28 The function FIND-NEXT-FLASHCARD is undefined. 00:43:31 whoops 00:48:59 adeht [~death@84.110.255.239] has joined #lisp 00:49:06 hi I have a question regarding something from the PCL book 00:49:22 you just ask it 00:49:24 "...some programmers will name particularly low-level functions with names that start with % or even %%" 00:49:30 what is meant by this 00:49:41 like low level as in interacting with asm? 00:49:50 %function means that it's an internal function you shouldn't be using 00:49:55 it's just a notation 00:49:59 okay 00:50:01 I see 00:50:12 so it is something in the implementation that is meant to be hidden from a user 00:50:14 But, yes, low-level as in asm sometimes, or direct hacking against the VM memory model. 00:50:31 alright I get it 00:50:35 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable136.252-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:28 thanks guys 00:51:37 thanks for putting up with my noobie questions 00:51:40 whee 00:51:49 maden [~maden@modemcable136.252-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:55:34 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@rrcs-24-105-134-152.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 00:57:56 mooglenorph [~marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:54 jsnell: Hi. does cl-dot support subgraphs? 00:59:25 jsnell: if not, I'll just add it. Should I add it as a :subgraph keyword in "node attribtes"? 00:59:31 larry65 [~larry65@d122-105-198-226.adl8.sa.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:59:37 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:01:31 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:03:06 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 01:09:40 -!- Madsy [~Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:10:22 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:09 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:16:03 Madsy [~Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 01:19:24 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 01:19:28 -!- larry65 [~larry65@d122-105-198-226.adl8.sa.optusnet.com.au] has left #lisp 01:20:25 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:21:08 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.147.69.105.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: 'night all ;) .•«UPP»•.] 01:21:53 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.56.154.32] has quit [K-Lined] 01:23:21 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 01:24:21 mooglenorph: I don't know, to be honest, I haven't touched that code for something like three years. mweber is the current maintainer 01:25:50 -!- _macro [~macro@shiva.mochimedia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:26:07 jsnell: Oh, thanks, sorry about that. 01:26:24 jsnell: thanks for that library, btw, I think the code is a very good example of nice CLOS. 01:26:43 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-4-82.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:26:47 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:16 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:39 GManNickG [~GManNickG@66-192-186-98.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:41 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:28:45 -!- GManNickG [~GManNickG@66-192-186-98.static.twtelecom.net] has left #lisp 01:29:27 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 01:31:21 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable136.252-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:31:49 maden [~maden@modemcable136.252-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:32:07 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable136.252-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:32:23 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 01:32:39 maden [~maden@modemcable136.252-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:33:12 wgl [~wgl@c-98-227-91-74.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:12 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:33:34 lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:44 -!- tgg [~tgg@pool-71-174-251-39.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: tgg] 01:40:36 -!- rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:40:57 rlpowell [~rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 01:48:30 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:49:21 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:50:14 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-217-41.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:51:02 fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 01:51:08 greetings 01:51:08 fusss, memo from sellout: Why do you want thread-id? Why not just hold a reference to it  or are you really looking for the maybe-existing Unix PID? 01:51:28 p_l: herep 01:52:36 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #lisp 01:52:50 who is the resident hardware raid, fsck, crash recovery guru here 01:53:30 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 01:53:32 i have an opteron 2U thinggie go belly up on me :-/ including my development VM, and the mirror svn VM :-/ 01:54:54 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55:01 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 01:55:01 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 01:57:22 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:11 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:36 minion: memo for sellout: i wanted BT:THREAD-ID because BT:DESTROY-THREAD doesn't do anything. 01:58:36 Remembered. I'll tell sellout when he/she/it next speaks. 02:00:03 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:17 it does do something for me 02:00:23 TR2N [email@89.180.168.94] has joined #lisp 02:00:53 namely, it kills a thread 02:04:15 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:06:45 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 02:08:32 stassats`: ccl, win32 and linux. nothing. might have to debug that and prolly fix/report it. 02:08:56 ccl, linux32. something. 02:09:10 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@76.242.88.96] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 02:09:31 *sellout* blames someone else. 02:10:21 the best kind of blame 02:12:22 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:38 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f72de13.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:13:08 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f73433c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:31 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 02:16:20 tgg [~tgg@pool-71-174-251-39.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:26 -!- tgg [~tgg@pool-71-174-251-39.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:18:00 fusss: what raid level is it at? 02:22:32 felideon [~felideon@adsl-2-97-71.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:46 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:15 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 02:27:38 is there any way to get helpful error messages from asdf? 02:30:22 edit asdf.lisp to your taste 02:33:33 hmm I guess I deserved that 02:35:08 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.199.27] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:36:20 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:36:24 wolgo: 5 02:36:36 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 02:36:50 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:52 wolgo: long war story short, i am winning 02:38:16 palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:44 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: palter] 02:47:04 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:53:40 qbomb [~qbomb@65.183.103.233] has joined #lisp 02:55:00 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:51 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:13 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 03:00:34 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:01:30 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 03:03:24 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:20 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:06:05 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 03:06:32 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:06:57 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:07:27 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-26-110.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:07:50 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 03:08:04 saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:50 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-75-30.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:14:19 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:18:03 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-188-154.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:18:13 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:18:55 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 03:19:42 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-2-97-71.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:20:31 woodworks [woodworks@86.st.louis-141-143rs.mo.dial-access.att.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:03 anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:21 rabuf [~user@ip68-230-168-93.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:16 -!- pinterface [~pinterfac@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 03:24:35 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:39 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:30:01 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:30:20 -!- saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat_] 03:31:42 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:04 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 03:38:18 wolgo: winnage! fixed the raid. I had one of the jbods, our back up external tape storage, and the asterix pbx device all blow up. thanks to a shity UPS. 03:38:51 fwiw, Ubuntard makes for a lousy rescue disk. Centos was better. 03:39:53 of course, all of this would have been avoided if the goddamn neighbors trim the trees and didn't let them grow into the electric cables. 03:40:06 -!- pers`` [~user@p5B34C8F6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:40:39 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41:33 -!- rabuf [~user@ip68-230-168-93.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:42:13 rabuf [~user@ip68-230-168-93.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:40 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 03:42:41 -!- rabuf [~user@ip68-230-168-93.mc.at.cox.net] has left #lisp 03:43:31 Good morning! 03:43:35 saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:04 good morning beach 03:46:49 -!- woodworks [woodworks@86.st.louis-141-143rs.mo.dial-access.att.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:54:27 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:54:48 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:55:10 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 03:56:30 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56:37 gah, beach's morning already? it was 8am PDT just... oh... 13 hours ago. 03:56:55 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 03:57:00 Time to go to bed? 03:57:05 well, at least most of them were billable. good morning beach :) 03:57:19 time to get away from the computer at least. 03:58:58 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:04 *drewc* is off for the evening. gnight all 03:59:11 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 03:59:12 good night drewc :) 03:59:13 'night drewc 04:03:07 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:03:40 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:04:15 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 04:07:05 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 04:07:42 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 04:12:30 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:16:01 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:16:41 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:16:53 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:17:13 fusss: I hate ubuntu 04:18:03 I have never had a working install of it. Debian installs flawlessly on all of my machines though. 04:18:40 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 04:24:30 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:13 sgrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:48 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-242-88-96.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:56 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-easkqikomulsywbf] has joined #lisp 04:27:52 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-easkqikomulsywbf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:01 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wsanghiqaglibajh] has joined #lisp 04:28:15 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:31:12 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:31:26 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-5-42.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:31:46 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@65.183.103.233] has left #lisp 04:34:54 anyone heard of GNU Data Language? 04:36:31 it's GNU's take on "IDL", which . I am not sure does what 04:37:30 "routines thought to be of general interest .. Text Files, Text strings, Date & time routines, Information, Plotting/Graphics, Imaging, Array processing, Math routines, Map related, Programming routine, Widget tools, Miscellanious." 04:38:25 such a vague description for something that looks cool http://gnudatalanguage.sourceforge.net/screenshot.html 04:38:40 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:42:00 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:01 heh, it's matlab-like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDL_%28programming_language%29 04:45:14 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 04:50:31 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host213-122-221-177.range213-122.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:52:13 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:55:41 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 05:00:00 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:01:32 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined 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[~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:37 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:46 -!- coyo [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ACTION closes window in a panic] 05:33:57 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.168.94] has left #lisp 05:34:35 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:34:35 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.134] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:34:35 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:34:35 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:34:35 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:34:35 -!- pookleblinky [~pooklebli@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:34:35 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.132.224] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:34:35 -!- Wombatzus [~user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:34:35 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:34:35 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:34:35 -!- ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:34:35 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [*.net *.split] 05:35:12 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:36:41 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 05:36:58 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: restart] 05:37:47 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:48 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:39:48 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.134] has joined #lisp 05:39:48 nowhere_man [pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:48 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 05:39:48 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:48 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 05:39:48 ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 05:39:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:41:56 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 05:46:16 simplechat_ [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 05:46:22 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:47:35 -!- synthase [~synthase@adsl-249-96-191.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:48:31 Madsy [~Madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 05:48:45 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:49:57 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:51:14 sunil.nandihalli pasted "defgeneric-conditional macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97788 05:52:21 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:54 attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 05:57:48 synthase [~synthase@adsl-146-213-189.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:54 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:45 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:03 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00:06 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 06:00:19 sunil.nandihalli annotated #97788 "macro expansion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97788#1 06:01:20 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:02:30 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:05:47 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 06:06:18 -!- 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[~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:26:46 skeledrew1 [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 06:27:16 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:30:08 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:31:06 wheee 06:31:09 pcl is great 06:31:15 I felt like I was not learning 06:31:17 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.230] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:31:20 but I looked at a piece of code 06:31:25 and I knew exactly what it did 06:31:28 w00t 06:31:34 -!- glogic [~rm@97.76.48.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:32:44 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 06:33:24 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:38 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 06:35:10 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 06:36:11 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:37:06 mathk [~Miranda@78.155.152.6] has joined #lisp 06:37:19 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:37:46 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:38:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:39:37 wolgo: you're on your path to enlightenment :) 06:41:06 merl15__ [~merl@188-22-163-74.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 06:41:31 haha 06:41:32 yeah 06:42:14 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.202.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:43:21 ASau` [~user@77.246.230.194] has joined #lisp 06:43:27 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-202-69.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:53 -!- crypto_ is now known as z0d 06:44:02 -!- z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [Changing host] 06:44:02 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 06:46:39 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 06:46:39 vtl 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has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:03:46 i need a way to convert basic s-exps into xml, something like cl-who would be nice 07:04:37 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:57 i'm sure there is a library for that 07:06:17 and are you sure cl-who will not do? 07:06:42 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:06:52 anyway i have written one myself years back, and with all the escaping it is less than 100 lines of code 07:07:05 good morning 07:07:28 jdz: mine is 8 lines but sucky 07:09:10 bossy-boss [~root@117.136.9.36] has joined #lisp 07:09:45 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:10:50 jdz pasted "sexp to xml for fuss" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97791 07:11:49 jdz: wow, that's pretty full on. thanks :-) 07:12:20 use at your own risk, and make sure you check if any of the libraries don't do what you want, first 07:12:53 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:13:02 fusss annotated #97791 "i used this until i needed deeper nesting" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97791#1 07:13:24 Joreji [~thomas@91-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:15:11 jdz: like this? (xml (*standard-output*) '("foo" ("baz" "quuz"))) 07:15:32 this code i wrote a bit more than 6 years back 07:15:46 it does not look too bad, though 07:16:16 merl15__ [~merl@188-22-163-74.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 07:16:21 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jhasmrmgpjdjptwp] has joined #lisp 07:16:36 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75542a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:04 (keywordp car) .. 07:17:17 konr [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has joined #lisp 07:17:37 ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:17:42 fusss: hmm? 07:17:58 you were using keywords as element names :-) 07:18:08 there goes your case sensitivity 07:19:10 well, change KEYWORDP to STRINGP, remove STRING-DOWNCASE, and off you go 07:19:31 jdz: i know 07:20:11 will clean it up and add it to here. http://www.cliki.net/XML 07:20:40 fusss: there already is an xml-emitter... 07:21:02 ouch, with-tag... 07:21:19 jdz: not very user friendly. i am using it;. 07:21:59 the use-case is to write soap bodies in s-exps 07:22:30 -!- ejs [~eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:22:37 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:22:57 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:23:03 i can get ("Foo" ("Bar" ("Baz" "Quux"))) ==> Quux and i don't wanna do it in more than 20 lines 07:24:13 without loop. for fun and profit. 07:24:21 ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:24:57 -!- saikat_ is now known as saikat 07:25:04 skeledrew1 [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 07:25:14 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:25:16 fuss how many lines are left if you remove process-element-with-attributes and escape-string-for-xml and associated code? 07:26:39 jdz: nailed it! 07:26:46 with one level of complication though 07:27:55 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:27:58 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:27:58 morning 07:28:06 ok, gtg for a bit 07:28:10 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 07:28:30 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:29:40 -!- pavelludiq [~c28d2f82@gateway/web/freenode/x-shzuarlgaisqtmmz] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:30:40 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@93.111.170.80] has left #lisp 07:32:11 -!- kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:35:16 fusss annotated #97791 "ultra tiny "xml" generator" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97791#2 07:35:41 ouch, jdz is gone 07:36:22 12 lines, not bad 07:36:55 no attributes though; just tags 07:38:36 blast_hardcheese [~blast_har@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:22 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:39:31 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 07:41:33 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 07:42:46 kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has joined #lisp 07:43:10 -!- bossy-boss [~root@117.136.9.36] has left #lisp 07:43:47 a-s [~user@93.112.124.12] has joined #lisp 07:45:43 -!- merl15__ [~merl@188-22-163-74.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:46:09 -!- a-s [~user@93.112.124.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:49:06 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:49:13 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:51:46 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:52:29 my XML library is now 727 lines.. I lose. :-/ 07:53:27 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:53:55 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:43 merl15__ [~merl@188-22-163-74.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 07:56:27 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:56:42 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 07:59:27 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 08:02:05 myu2 [~myu2@KD124211004199.ppp.prin.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:02:18 -!- myu2 [~myu2@KD124211004199.ppp.prin.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 08:03:25 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:04:31 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 08:04:34 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:04:48 anyone know how to SHA1 something with ironclad? 08:05:09 longkid [~longkid@118.68.220.160] has joined #lisp 08:05:36 (sha1 password nonce) 08:08:41 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 08:08:51 (cl-base64:usb8-array-to-base64-string (digest-sequence (make-digets :sha1) (concatenate 'string password nonce))) 08:09:17 (defun sha-passwd (password nonce) *) 08:09:25 did anyone succesfully use the registration form for els? it just says to me that it failed, and email us... 08:09:40 + rather 08:10:14 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:11:11 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:11:55 -!- rootzlevel [~user@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:12:17 whokno [~gnuser@117.136.9.35] has joined #lisp 08:12:32 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:12:34 -!- whokno [~gnuser@117.136.9.35] has quit [Client Quit] 08:13:20 rootzlevel [~user@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:13:52 adamvh [~adamvh@c-98-250-50-106.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:13 bossy-boss [~root@117.136.9.35] has joined #lisp 08:14:40 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 08:14:51 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:15:36 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:23 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:18:31 atomx [~user@93.112.124.12] has joined #lisp 08:24:15 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.124.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24:47 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:25:05 atomx [~user@93.112.124.12] has joined #lisp 08:25:14 glogic [~rm@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 08:26:17 -!- merl15__ [~merl@188-22-163-74.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:26:53 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.124.12] has left #lisp 08:27:36 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:29:57 -!- Wombatzu` [~user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:30:22 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 08:31:58 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:32:29 -!- longkid [~longkid@118.68.220.160] has left #lisp 08:33:03 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 08:33:34 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 08:34:18 -!- bossy-boss [~root@117.136.9.35] has left #lisp 08:41:53 i see a merger opportunity between md5, cl-base64, and ironclad 08:43:09 and perhaps babel 08:44:49 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 08:45:02 -!- KatrinaTheLamia [~root13@69.164.215.87] has left #lisp 08:49:07 -!- rootzlevel [~user@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:51:02 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:32 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:54:42 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 08:55:54 how do I write a byte to the console in SLIME? 08:56:11 (write-byte 5 *standard-output*) 08:56:15 raises a type error 08:59:51 adamvh: not sure what you're trying to do, but perhaps: (let ((*print-radix* 2)) (princ #b101)) 09:00:07 adamvh: or (princ 5) 09:00:38 well, I have a bunch of functions that write binary using the function write-byte 09:00:49 and take a stream as an argument 09:01:05 I would like to pass a stream to these functions 09:01:16 so that I can take a look at the string of bytes they spit out 09:01:25 and verify that it is somewhat reasonable 09:01:43 and would prefer not to have to look at a file to get this effect 09:03:26 how do i make a vector of 'simple-unsigned-byte-vector? 09:03:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@91-190.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:05:56 (ironclad:octets-to-integer (vector 1992)) ==> errorr 09:07:49 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:08:25 -!- jao [~jao@83.43.35.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:08:33 -!- Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:09:03 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 09:14:16 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-30-16.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:19:06 nite 09:19:13 cl-scum is a success 09:19:15 deployed today 09:19:17 -!- fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:21:33 longkid [~longkid@118.68.220.160] has joined #lisp 09:21:41 hello 09:22:15 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:24:33 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 09:25:34 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:26:08 -!- longkid 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pasted "color_traits" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97804 11:20:19 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 11:20:25 hello 11:24:04 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75542a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:37 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:30:11 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:30:51 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:31:01 adamvh_ [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:44 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:32:41 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jhasmrmgpjdjptwp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:33:31 benny [~benny@i577A130D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:36 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-98-250-50-106.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:33:36 -!- adamvh_ is now 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[~Dave@74-92-46-229-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:04 Anybody capable of helping with a problem building SBCL on osx-powerpc-10.5.8? 12:26:33 mattrepl [~mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:03 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 12:27:38 htk__ [~htk___@95.65.240.58] has joined #lisp 12:28:49 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:29:42 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:31:01 -!- ejs [~eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:33:44 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:06 ,ask 12:37:31 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:40:35 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:41:41 -!- htk__ [~htk___@95.65.240.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:42:49 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 12:43:41 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-bwdogrdvdhxhsumq] has joined #lisp 12:48:37 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:53 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:37 -!- rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:54:24 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:52 ejs [~eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #lisp 13:02:26 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:06:13 rootzlevel [~user@91-66-191-155-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:11:01 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:11:28 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 13:14:30 rrice [~rrice@76.211.14.95] has joined #lisp 13:15:18 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:15:56 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:16:16 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wsanghiqaglibajh] has left #lisp 13:18:11 coyo [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:37 Xof, do you know anything about the elf registration form? it didn't work for this morning... 13:19:45 s/elf/els/ 13:21:58 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has joined #lisp 13:22:20 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:23:21 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:56 carlocci [~nes@93.37.201.196] has joined #lisp 13:29:44 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:38 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:33:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:28 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:35:50 slaker [~slaker@212.183.140.37] has joined #lisp 13:36:11 -!- slaker [~slaker@212.183.140.37] has quit [Client Quit] 13:38:42 attila_lendvai: argh, really? Suck 13:39:20 Xof, tried without the hungarian accents, but the answer comes back suspiciously quickly 13:39:23 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:39:36 *attila_lendvai* checks again now 13:39:48 hrm, and i'll try with ffox 13:40:05 kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:26 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:40:50 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 13:41:14 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:20 slaker [~slaker@212.183.140.37] has joined #lisp 13:42:10 Xof, with firefox "We're sorry: we weren't able to register you into the database. Please, try again later, or email us, we'll take care of your registration." 13:42:16 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:42:43 right 13:42:45 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@wsip-70-168-132-106.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 13:42:46 any suggestion? write our details to els2010@easychair.org? 13:42:46 I didn't write this website 13:42:58 hold on while I try to see if I can work out wtf is going on 13:43:04 ok 13:43:05 Which book would you recommend for a lisp newbie? Most of them are way out of date? Does it matter? I'm waiting for the land of lisp to be released later this year. 13:43:16 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:17 Practical Common Lisp is good 13:43:19 and pretty recent 13:43:20 minion: tell slaker about pcl 13:43:21 slaker: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 13:43:48 Ok, thanks 13:43:59 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:22 What about sbcl or clisp? Does it matter for a beginner? 13:44:34 slaker: on what OS ? 13:44:34 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:44:42 slackware linux 13:44:44 slaker: then go for SBCL 13:45:04 any particular reason why SBCL? 13:45:24 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:48 it is very stable and well-supported on linux, and has a lot of nice features. 13:45:59 it is really fast. 13:46:06 many people here use SBCL and can help with it. 13:46:15 Guthur [~Michael@host213-122-221-177.range213-122.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:21 @Xach: LOL - I like your answer - you sound like a SBCL developer:) 13:46:22 cons: its own repl isn't readline-enabled 13:46:58 that's not a hugely big deal, though 13:46:59 slaker: Common Lisp has pretty not changed over the last 20 years. 13:47:09 you should probably be using slime or something anyway, even with clisp 13:47:24 slaker: and it has "steel" and "bank" in its title. groovy! 13:47:42 I know about slime. I'm in the process of configuring it 13:47:55 fe[nl]ix: which is a bad pun on CMUCL! 13:48:27 Now the question about a CL dialect. Slackware comes with clisp, but as you suggest SBCL I'll try it out. 13:48:40 minion: clbuild 13:48:41 clbuild: clbuild is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 13:48:44 s/dialect/implementation/ 13:49:13 @cmm: sorry - me be a lisp newbie 13:49:44 clisp is also fine, and much friendlier to those who don't feel up to getting into emacs and slime just yet 13:49:48 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75542a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:53 slaker: irc newbie too...@ means something different here! 13:50:20 Xach: Oops - I'm puzzled now - what does it mean? 13:50:29 clisp does have its own dialect, so make sure you run it with -ansi 13:50:30 it's OK, I feel flattered! 13:50:33 slaker: channel operators get an @ next to their name. 13:50:35 What's @username from? Seems familiar, maybe reddit or something? 13:50:44 rsynnott: twitter 13:50:49 ah, yep :) 13:50:53 oh, young people 13:51:14 fe[nl]ix: um :) 13:51:15 merl15__ [~merl@188-22-163-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:52:17 Just out of curiosity: Do you guys develop lisp apps for a living or is it just your passion for it that you treat as a hobby? 13:52:31 yes 13:52:41 (depending on who you ask) 13:52:42 slaker: the former 13:54:43 *attila_lendvai* payed the bills of the last 4 years from money earned with lisp 13:54:44 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:55:20 and i've even replaced my 15 year old car to an 8 year old recently! :) 13:55:38 8 years, that's like brand new ;) 13:55:51 depends on where you live 13:55:53 Ok, good to hear it - it's just that not everyday that I see job ads requiring lisp knowledge:) 13:56:03 I'll change workplace in july, but still no Lisp 13:56:13 daniel: germany is an exception regarding cars 13:56:25 Is it? 13:56:33 slaker, well, we had to start our own company... but our perspectives are much better than the way i sound 13:56:51 attila_lendvai: Got a link to a homepage? 13:56:57 dwim.hu 13:57:09 :D 13:57:18 slaker: both for me 13:57:52 palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:217:f2ff:fee7:72d7] has joined #lisp 13:57:55 daniel, well, http://dwim.hu is a technology demo, but not really a company website i'm proud of 13:59:01 While there is an internal server error when clicking on the link at the top, the message itself looks pretty neat ;-) 13:59:20 levente_meszaros pasted "is it my SLIME only? " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97814 13:59:50 has anyone tested SBCL on OpenVz? 14:01:13 levente_meszaros: that's an emacs restriction 14:01:23 levente_meszaros: Use \( instead of ( in docstrings 14:01:26 levente_meszaros: it's the same old emacs bug: don't put a #\( as first character of a line inside a docstring 14:01:34 levente_meszaros: you can escape it 14:01:41 it doesn't even work with C-c C-r 14:01:55 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:02:04 ah, I see 14:03:14 -!- vtl [~user@nat/redhat/x-sibdzcdawpwalkmt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:47 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:46 thanks everyone - see you around 14:07:54 -!- slaker [~slaker@212.183.140.37] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:12:03 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 14:13:00 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:31 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:14:11 attila_lendvai: can you try now? 14:14:19 wtf, the ELS registration form requires me to send credit card data in clear over fax ? 14:14:50 *attila_lendvai* tries 14:15:31 fe[nl]ix: there remains a persistent belief that fax is somehow very secure 14:17:46 I will defend the indefensible later, but: credit card numbers are not secret 14:17:48 Xof, ok, i got the mail, the form works. any chance for an invoice about the conference? we'd like to pay for it by our company... 14:17:53 it's your authorization that matters 14:18:06 stettber` [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has joined #lisp 14:18:27 Xof: but the CCV code is suppose to remain so 14:18:28 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-5-42.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:18:31 -!- stettber` [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:31 -!- stettberger [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:45 stettberger [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has joined #lisp 14:19:06 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:20:38 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:52 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-90-56.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:23:21 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:26:12 -!- hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Quit: brb] 14:27:29 hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:45 -!- ejs [~eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:35:20 From a theory perspective, is AMOP pretty decent of a book? 14:36:08 TDT: I recently read a book review that might help you decide 14:36:22 http://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/amop-review.pdf 14:38:48 Xach: Thanks, I'll take a look at that 14:39:55 HET3 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:40:05 -!- HET3 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:46 -!- enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has left #lisp 14:43:44 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:46 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 14:46:02 sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:16 A TI Lisp Machine is being ressurrected just next to me. Heh! 14:46:56 luis: who's playing the shaman ? 14:47:09 the ccv code is only sort of meant to remain so -- it still gets sent all over the place through insecure channels 14:47:27 (if you think ssl certificates are secure, I have an anecdote about the level of insurance paid for) 14:47:34 António Leitão 14:48:05 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 14:49:04 anyway, I accept fully that sending cc details by fax is not ideal, and quite a lot of the reason registration opened late was because antonio spent ages trying to convince his university that it was nuts 14:49:34 wow 14:49:49 afa [~afa@131.152.178.51] has joined #lisp 14:50:03 One of the apps was stuck trying to access some remote filesystem and he was able to pop the debugger up. That was nice, heh. 14:50:45 milanj [~milanj_@79.101.78.241] has joined #lisp 14:51:45 dto: rock on 14:52:12 ephcon [~ephcon@student164-67.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 14:55:04 hhuu [~hhuu@opensuse/member/xwhu] has joined #lisp 14:55:10 -!- hhuu [~hhuu@opensuse/member/xwhu] has quit [Client Quit] 14:55:22 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:55:27 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:57:32 cYmen2 [ujasp@rzstud5.stud.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:52 Hope this question doesn't offend. 14:57:56 Why is lisp so slow? 14:58:04 it does offend 14:58:10 it's stupid 14:58:16 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.230.194] has quit [Quit: off] 14:58:17 -!- stettberger [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:58:21 why is the sky so green? 14:58:36 because you're upside down? 14:59:17 he works at l6oo6 14:59:24 hrhr 15:00:16 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:00:22 seriously though 15:00:27 I was looking at this http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/fastest-programming-language.php 15:01:02 and I was wondering what lisp was doing fundamentally different from say haskell or java 15:01:25 cYmen2: it doesn't do too bad compared to other contestants, many of which have much, much more people working on them. 15:01:28 cYmen2: from your metric, intel's fortran compiler is slow. 15:02:37 cYmen2: also, learn to read charts of this type - Lisp goes from near-optimal to "little faster than Ruby 1.9 on average" 15:02:38 From your metric, Lua is also both much faster and slower than fortran or common lisp. 15:02:45 so the correct question is this: why is a particular benchmark program written on a particular lisp implementation slow compared to some other program written in some other language implementation? 15:03:04 cYmen, this does not offend 15:03:09 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:12 this is a "benchmark game" 15:03:13 well, obviously this is not a metric 15:03:16 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:03:20 yes, yes, yes 15:03:35 cYmen2: what is it then, and why are you mentioning it? 15:03:35 it just prompted the question 15:03:52 what makes a language fast or slow, what are the most important design choices... 15:04:00 cYmen2: funny, I'd have expected it to prompt question about the chart. 15:04:18 pkhuong: I was just staring at it and wondering and this seems like a channel for people who might know such things 15:04:36 cYmen2: also, everything is matter of tradeoffs - you can remove a lot of indirections if you remove capability of on-the-fly compiling and hot changing of code, both which are standard part of nearly any Lisp and which are unavailable in C/C++ 15:05:29 shootout problems also tend to be small, and the real metric that matters is, IMHO, a complex thing that takes into account programmer efficiency, speed, memory use, etc. 15:05:54 cYmen2: I would tend to say that the aggregated result (either as a quantiles or average) are useless on the shootout, but that individual microbenchmark can be useful to understand how code can be structured to solve certain types of problems quickly (or not, as it may be). 15:06:32 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:46 given that so much stuff is nowadays written in Javascript, of which the fastest implementation is 4 times slower than lisp in that benchmark... :P 15:08:17 and JVM in server mode is *very* fast 15:08:25 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:08:44 when tuned properly, I heard understandable & reasonable claims of getting upper hand on C code doing the same tasks. 15:08:59 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-48-43.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:09:39 p_l: understandable & reasonable how? 15:09:45 -!- simplechat_ [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:40 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-26-110.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:11:20 stettberger [stettberge@2001:6f8:1209:f0:216:3eff:fe03:ff] has joined #lisp 15:11:23 cYmen2: Sun poured tons of research and money into their on-the-fly optimizer, which does what is equivalent to profile-guided optimization (which is still rather experimental in C compilers) and constantly tunes native code generated. 15:11:48 over long run time of the application, it gets optimized according to the real resource usage. 15:12:35 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:12:46 pretty cool 15:13:19 gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has joined #lisp 15:13:23 as for uselessnes of this benchmark as general comparison of languages - consider how many people use Ruby 1.8 for programming. 15:14:38 -!- gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has left #lisp 15:14:51 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-bwdogrdvdhxhsumq] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:14:57 which is placed as nearly 160 times slower than GNU C (median results) 15:15:50 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:17:27 cYmen2: also see "Java 6 steady state", I believe that one entry refers to those benchmark programs after going through several passes of the HotSpot long-run optimizer 15:17:41 TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 15:18:57 cYmen2: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/fastest-programming-language.php?gcc=on&gpp=on&javasteady=on&java=on&ghc=on&csharp=on&sbcl=on&hipe=on&python3=on&yarv=on&python=on&perl=on&ruby=on&calc=chart 15:19:00 The only arguemnt I'd make about the ruby thing is the answer so far about performance of ruby apps has been to just ignore the problem or toss more hardware at it in many cases. 15:19:28 cYmen2: now take into consideration the fact that quite a lot of *desktop* applications is written in stuff that is slowest on that chart :) 15:19:42 the speed of CL doesn't look so bad now, does it? 15:20:37 TDT: and ... it worked well enough :) 15:20:52 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:21:09 TDT: at least once it was done through "think about performance, dammit!", though (Merb vs. Rails 1.x/2.x) 15:21:12 koollman: Some would agree with you on that 15:21:54 I'll quote ESR on this: Programmer time is more important. And they are "fast enough". 15:21:55 p_l: I like what they are doing with ruby 1.9 in terms of performance over 1.8.7 or whatever the current version is right now. 15:22:13 well ... they realized that sometimes... speed matters ;) 15:22:15 TDT: well, it got byte-compiling at least :) 15:22:38 TDT: though latest MacRuby based on Ruby 1.9 actually compiles to native code. 15:22:49 .. and why is truck slower then family saloon .... 15:23:17 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:24:07 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:24:15 p_l: Yeah, I don't know that much about ruby...still trying to avoid it a bit since on my free time I'm still trying to get decent at lisp. 15:24:22 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 15:24:34 TDT: it's "not so bad" 15:24:46 quite smalltalk-ish 15:25:22 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25:40 p_l: Yeah, I do it in my work-time, bit of a political stuff from the office and bit of the rails community that kinda turned me against really learning ruby/rails for as long as it has. 15:26:08 i kinda like ruby 15:27:05 TDT: Rails got quite opinionated community. DHH himself is *very* opinionated, and if I were looking for a job, even if I had excellent RoR credentials, I'd avoid 37signals - at least from his talks, it's place full of fanboys. 15:27:05 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 15:27:28 what's so good about being opinionated? 15:27:34 and what does that mean anyway? 15:27:50 (of course, he didn't say anything about "fanboys", just that he considers devs who don't go for apple as "those that don't go for good tools" or something like that) 15:27:58 antifuchs: they can usually agree on something. 15:28:00 antifuchs: I'm not saying it's good :P 15:28:05 unlike... say... lisp ;) 15:28:10 heh 15:28:23 but yes, fortunately, Ruby managed to get certain stuff working in time :)( 15:28:30 *:-) 15:28:34 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:28:50 for a wide range of values for "working" and "time" 15:29:03 p_l: That bit of frustration is how I feel a bit about it as well. 15:29:19 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:36 having an opinionated 'main dev' helps to solve various lingering decisions and arguments 15:29:55 Well, RoR gave them huge explosion of developers, but at that point, they already had RubyForge, RubyGems and they didn't have contesting implementations. 15:30:05 if he says 'this is the way it is now', the rest can spend time on more interesting things than arguing about it 15:30:06 koollman: except the opinionated guys aren't main devs :) 15:30:16 p_l: they don't differ much in opinion ;) 15:30:28 so it works out the same way 15:30:45 koollman: last time I checked, Ruby's main dev wasn't much of apple fanboy ;-) 15:30:52 in the lisp community, my feeling is that often enough, when you can do things one way or another... it leads to two languages :) 15:31:55 and of course, considering the number of arguments you can have on every single decision, you end up with an infinity of different languages, all lisp, but none of them usable :) 15:32:13 koollman: sometimes I feel it's also because the "findability" of existing code is lower. Also, lack of common documentation. 15:32:42 (with Ruby or Python, there's rather standard documentation system in place) 15:32:44 koollman: The problem with what I'm seeing for your argument is that it seems to relate opinionated people with knowledgeable people...and that one requires the other. 15:32:57 TDT: not at all 15:33:59 koollman: ^-^ CL is quite usable, and to be honest nothing else out there quite matches it. ^-^ Even stuff like clojure has neat things about it, even though I don't currently use it, I read the guy's talk about immutable data and the reasons behind clojure's isa? and derive. 15:34:04 TDT: you can know a lot. and have no specific opinion about it. Or be unable to impose it ;) 15:34:14 I'm kinda confused to be honest 15:34:53 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.48] has joined #lisp 15:35:12 nixeagle: nothing matches it. but nothing matches python existing libraries, or ruby's 'unified' modules, or java's unified definition 15:35:35 (except ... my own true language that will crush them all. later. perhaps. ;) ) 15:35:43 koollman: mmm, this goes back to the packaging issue, we don't have a cpan, rubyforge or similar 15:35:50 not just packaging :) 15:36:06 I can take a java program, and say 'this is really java, and only java'. 15:36:20 koollman: Well, opinionated and a leader I don't see the same - but being able to impose some opinion is something that may need to be done as a leader (e.g. listen to the options, pick one, everyone goes that way). The problem with opinionated leaders is that they don't listen to anyone else before deciding something - in which they can miss out on stuff. On the other hand, I've met more opinionated non-lead programmers than 15:36:20 opinionated lead programmers - usually due to a desire of the "I'm right" type of aspect. 15:36:29 I can take a CL program, and it will be CL, but ... only CL ? that's much less sure 15:36:34 koollman: you can do the same with common lisp you know. There is a spec for it. 15:36:47 (C has a related problem. you either use standard C, or you write real programs ;) ) 15:36:50 koollman: "only CL" I don't understand 15:37:14 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f6668f5-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:15 are you talking about macros and utility extensions? 15:37:24 nixeagle: no specific part that only works with some of the CL environments and not the others 15:37:34 koollman: huh? 15:37:55 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:38:17 let's say.. threads ? :) 15:38:37 or any other specific subject that's been reinvented for each CL compiler/vm 15:39:06 koollman: ah ok. We do compatibility libraries, so you would use that. Alas not standardized. 15:39:23 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.115.199.228] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:39:28 yeah. the nice things about those...is that there are so many of them :) 15:39:30 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.115.199.228] has joined #lisp 15:39:35 koollman: http://common-lisp.net/project/bordeaux-threads/ 15:39:39 afk 15:39:50 and while I can use it... what about the other libs I might need? ;) 15:39:51 (later I'll show some of my project for better packaging) 15:40:07 (I know, I know, getting better. but I think it's still much of a problem) 15:41:02 koollman: sure what I'm saying is if cl had a packaging system on the order of ruby forge or cpan this stuff like bt would have no problem getting out there, mind you asdf-install winds up installing it pretty fast if you want a webserver. 15:41:46 look at C, you don't get threads in that unless you add some library in. 15:41:59 yup 15:42:11 koollman: java... SE5? SE6? EE? ME? openjdk? gcj/gij? ibm? dalvik? ... what about code depending on frameworks like Spring, Guice, etc? and JNI or JNA code? it is not that much more uniformly portable than CL 15:42:15 but in C, you can get mostly 'posix or win32' 15:42:38 arbscht: it is incredibly portable. really. given a java version, I know the application works 15:42:38 So there is nothing wrong with that concept, add a library to get threads and threads work on all/most major implementations. 15:43:02 and, making a complex, realistic apps won't need any non-standard stuff 15:43:07 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:43:12 koollman: no, you just depend on it ;) 15:43:14 (because ... just about everything has been added to the java standard) 15:43:41 cmsimon [~chatzilla@pool-72-90-115-146.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:54 nixeagle: the thing is the 'all/most'. from what I've experienced, it's more 'some/a few' ;0 15:44:01 -!- cmsimon is now known as Guest67355 15:44:05 The problem I have with all the cross-implementation abstraction layers is that they are quite often a lowest-common-denominator. And the things that each implementation has in addition of course aren't extensions to the portability library, they're extensions to the implementation-specific API. If lisps just implemented the abstraction-layer API themselves, and had extensions to that API, it'd be a whole lot nicer. 15:44:56 arbscht: and, seriously. I wouldn't worry about someone giving me a random java app to deploy. I can't say the same for a random lisp app. :) 15:45:00 foom: indeed ^-^ 15:45:32 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:46 koollman: again if you had easy access to the libs and the devs said it worked with x y and z I'd be pretty confident it would work. 15:46:05 take something like hunchentoot 15:46:16 http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/ 15:47:31 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:47:49 nixeagle: I mean, without any app modification :) 15:48:11 koollman: hunchentoot has no problem installing on about anything I've tried it on 15:48:24 I can agree that it's possible to do 15:48:26 That is a major application right there that works 15:48:28 just not the default to expect 15:48:39 axiom 15:48:51 http://www.cliki.net/Axiom 15:49:08 chops__ [~chops@99-189-122-19.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:23 I think somebody needs to look around a bit more :) 15:50:41 -!- tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 15:52:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:58:25 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 15:58:25 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:59 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:59:51 koollman: you'd be surprised. I had seen Java apps that require exact *build* of the runtime 15:59:57 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:00:25 which is sure to cause lots of grief, I guess, when the whole company moves to Win7 this summer ^__^ 16:00:48 p_l: well, I haven't been surprised yet. an app checking for a specific build is just some 'cover your ass' thing, most of the time ;) 16:00:49 xan_ [~xan@adsl-207-214-87-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:09 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student164-67.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:01:14 p_l: ooh, sounds scary 16:01:16 koollman: no, not "checking". Actually failing to work. 16:01:16 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:01:17 (win7 move) 16:01:36 rsynnott: Nah, Win7 is even nicer to deploy than previous (since you can modify the image offline) 16:01:38 p_l: ah. now that's a bit more interesting :) 16:01:58 koollman: it was completely unportable, too - requiring certain native libs etc. 16:03:23 ejs [~eugen@91.90.15.36] has joined #lisp 16:04:44 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:04:44 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 16:04:58 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 16:08:00 *drewc* reads scrollback and decides that koolman is trolling all of you! 16:10:01 -!- mathk [~Miranda@78.155.152.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11:01 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:30 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:13:44 aintme [~Miranda@184.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:13:56 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 16:14:25 -!- aintme is now known as tara2 16:14:28 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: .•«UPP»•.] 16:14:44 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:15:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 16:16:30 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-196-51.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:18:31 howdy drewc 16:18:38 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:20:28 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:21:14 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-196-51.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:22:55 Xach: about your last post on plo, are you devving for ECL now, or was it a post of someone else you wanted to share? 16:23:22 Xach: good mornin 16:23:52 (or early afternoon, whatev) 16:23:58 madnificent: regarding games? 16:24:05 Xach: no, regarding asdf 16:24:19 madnificent: that's a post from Juanjo of ECL 16:24:32 though i guess that isn't clear from the page, which has no identifying author info 16:24:41 aha, I didn't quite get that 16:24:50 Xach: indeed, that's what got me in doubt 16:26:17 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:28:45 This Lisp Machine's debugger is depressingly similar to SLIME's. 16:29:00 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:29:04 luis: heh. Which LispM? 16:29:21 it's a TI Explorer, it seems 16:29:49 I am getting this on M-. 16:29:53 Error: failed to find the WRITE-DATE of C:\cygwin\home\nikodemus\sbcl\src\CODE\SYMBOL.LISP: 16:30:00 on win32 16:30:09 any hints? 16:30:21 luis: Ooh. Explorer, Explorer II, microExplorer, Explorer LX, or something else? 16:31:31 udzinari: That does seem odd. Does the file exist? 16:31:40 no ofc :) 16:31:55 udzinari: Do you have the SBCL source unpacked somewhere? 16:32:03 in c:\sbcl 16:32:07 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 16:32:09 SBCL_HOME points there 16:32:12 nyef: Explorer II, I'm told. 16:32:35 udzinari: Have a look at (logical-pathname-translations "SYS"). It's an accessor, so you can change it as needed. 16:32:56 c:/sbcl/src src being the dir from source tarball 16:33:01 nyef: okies, ty 16:33:32 (This is -such- a FAQ by now that it should be in the manual... if it isn't already. Do we have a FAQ page on the website?) 16:35:34 wedgeV [~wedge@rrcs-24-105-134-152.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:45 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:20 nyef: it is mentioned at http://www.cliki.net/SLIME%20Features I should have checked better 16:38:35 ephcon [~ephcon@pool-96-240-222-33.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:56 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:39:22 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-082-133.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 16:39:50 That does seem a touch out of the way, though. 16:41:09 shofetim [~user@173-165-131-134-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:15 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 16:43:57 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-52.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:44:09 (login 'username), (shutdown), fun. 16:46:08 _macro [~macro@shiva.mochimedia.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:20 uh oh, smoke's coming out of one of the disks. 16:47:29 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.79.144] has joined #lisp 16:47:31 ouch 16:47:36 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:48:21 oops 16:48:37 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:49:15 doh 16:49:51 -!- xinming [~hyy@125.109.76.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:50:02 damn, even with old libX11 and hacks OpenGenera no longer works :/ 16:50:21 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:28 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 16:53:19 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:26 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 16:54:21 -!- shofetim [~user@173-165-131-134-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 16:54:46 Xof: I'm guessing a Lisp Machine demo is planned for ELS? 16:54:51 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:55:18 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:50 tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:58:56 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:15 shofetim [~user@173-165-131-134-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:15 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.79.144] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:43 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:12 -!- ejs [~eugen@91.90.15.36] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:01:43 Can anyone explain to me (and linguistically parse) why :whostate is called whostate? 17:02:08 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:16 -!- rrice [~rrice@76.211.14.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:02:23 rrice [~rrice@76.211.14.95] has joined #lisp 17:02:25 ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 17:02:48 TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 17:03:21 hello 17:03:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@adsl-207-214-87-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:04:32 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:05:35 atomx [~user@93.112.124.12] has joined #lisp 17:05:36 -!- tara2 [~Miranda@184.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: /* */] 17:05:53 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:31 hello ost` 17:06:37 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:22 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-dvoyourjqltzfkdz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:08:24 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:08:48 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:50 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:09:36 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09:41 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:44 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:10 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-memhetbmbxfmktti] has joined #lisp 17:10:19 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:56 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 17:13:33 rdd` [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:14:01 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 17:14:16 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 17:14:53 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:35 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 17:15:58 Does SLIME's debugger mode have a top-of-stack and bottom-of-stack command? I'm debugging a stack exhaustion and I'd really like to see the bottom of the stack... 17:16:42 There's probably a lot of "More"s to click on... 17:16:58 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:18:15 is there an easy way to make a package which uses two (or more) packages and exports all symbols that those packages export? 17:19:11 madnificent: do-symbols 17:19:20 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Quit: Bad spellers of the world, untie!] 17:19:34 -!- jao [~jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:20:27 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 17:20:46 pkhuong: there's nothing to do it within the package definition, right? 17:20:52 #. 17:20:57 yup. (let ((foo-symbols (let (r) (do-symbols (s :foo) (push s r))))) #.`(defpackage :bar (:export ,@foo-symbols))) 17:21:21 well almost 17:21:38 the #. is obviously on the wrong place 17:21:47 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:22:19 and the do-symbols misses r as return value :-) 17:22:30 *madnificent* has to think very long and hard about that one 17:22:32 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:17 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:23:40 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 17:23:50 tcr: can you pastie the correct code? Would make it easier to grasp 17:24:49 #.(let ((foo-symbols (let (r) (do-symbols (s :foor ) (push s r))))) `(defpackage :bar (:export ,@foo-symbols))) 17:25:12 #.(let ((foo-symbols (let (r) (do-symbols (s :foo r) (push s r))))) `(defpackage :bar (:export ,@foo-symbols))) 17:25:12 xan_ [~xan@adsl-207-214-87-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:27 tcr: ah, so it will generate the defpackage form at read-time 17:25:53 tcr: does it know the symbols in the :foo package at read-time if both packages are in the same file? 17:27:05 clhs defpackage 17:27:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 17:27:25 " If a defpackage form appears as a top level form, all of the actions normally performed by this macro at load time must also be performed at compile time" 17:27:39 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:40 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:03 so yes,, it's also the reason that you can use DEFPACKAGE in the same file as the code that depends on it 17:29:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@65-150.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:29:54 tcr: but read-time comes before load-time and compile-time, right? If so, how can the read-time evaluation #. know the symbols? 17:30:51 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:30:58 compile-file processes form for form, and if a form has compile-time effects executes these effects right at that time 17:31:06 that's why IN-PACKAGE works 17:31:15 ah clever 17:31:42 It's REPL aaaalll the way down 17:31:47 :P 17:32:00 no reason to do it differently, I guess 17:32:08 thanks! 17:32:30 well, I'm not sure how many compiled language operate that way 17:32:40 they probably don't 17:32:44 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:32:48 -!- ost` [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:33:10 but I don't see why one would like to do it differently if you already require a REPL 17:33:14 moah [~gnu@dslb-084-063-211-153.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:12 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 17:35:35 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:52 lordakinator [~igaray@host230.190-3-1.static.telmex.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:37:00 tcr: sorry to bother you --- does slime have a "bottom of stack" command? 17:37:24 perhaps you mean to get at the end of the backtrace, showing all frames? 17:37:37 that's > 17:38:21 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.77.169] has joined #lisp 17:38:26 hm that could behave better 17:39:40 skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:44 tcr: It doesn't seem to be documented in the C-h m help 17:41:48 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:42:55 sure 17:43:27 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:43:30 -!- xan_ [~xan@adsl-207-214-87-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:43:53 Xach: thx for the repost :) 17:45:19 xan_ [~xan@72-254-59-233.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:16 semyon421 [~semyon@217.67.122.44] has joined #lisp 17:46:16 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 17:46:18 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 17:48:14 -!- lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:49:41 adamvh [~adamvh@c-98-250-50-106.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:17 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:02 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@pool-96-240-222-33.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:52:53 -!- skeledrew [~skeledrew@0177-82-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com] has left #lisp 17:53:34 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-082-133.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:53:43 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.124.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:56:52 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@ip68-108-251-45.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:57:15 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:28 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-98-250-50-106.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 17:59:55 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:00:53 rpg: Fixed in cvs 18:01:01 lnostdal_ [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:24 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:01:44 fiveop [~fiveop@g229115201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:04:30 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:33 -!- semyon421 [~semyon@217.67.122.44] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:04:53 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79.101.78.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:04:54 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [] 18:05:00 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 18:05:34 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:07:46 gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 18:08:14 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:15 zorn [~jz@206-248-133-240.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:14 -!- johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:46 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [] 18:11:21 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 18:12:24 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:13:46 -!- xan_ [~xan@72-254-59-233.client.stsn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:14:37 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:15:38 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:16:32 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:48 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082C176.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:53 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-100-230.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:17:54 xan_ [~xan@72-254-59-233.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:57 anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:44 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19:37 Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-19-210.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:20:04 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082DB93.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:27:01 *Xach* is a little sad about the #1 google hit for "lisp games" 18:28:02 jthing's page ? 18:28:05 aye 18:28:28 Xach: If you don't quote it, you get a page on GOAL. 18:28:28 sellout, memo from fusss: i wanted BT:THREAD-ID because BT:DESTROY-THREAD doesn't do anything. 18:29:12 Xach: I haven't read the whole page, but which part makes you sad? 18:30:02 REPLeffect: that page makes it look like no-one has touched the subject of lisp games in 30 years 18:30:14 REPLeffect: john "younder" thingstad is crazy, and his code is not so great. 18:30:30 ah 18:31:06 "GOAL's primary development and maintenance engineer is no longer available to Naughty Dog, and so they are transitioning to a C++ based pipeline for future projects."  I thought the opposite was true. 18:31:33 They were transitioning to C++, so GOAL's dev left. (but I say that with very little certainty) 18:33:23 sellout: that's how I remember it, last I read about it 18:33:28 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:62d6:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 18:35:14 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 18:35:26 nowadays they're back to scheme 18:37:02 IIRC they were transitioning to C++, because Sony was unwilling to use GOAL. The dev might have left later. 18:38:10 they mentioned something about being bought for their IP, only to find that most of it is not usable by Sony's devteam. 18:39:02 p_l: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. 18:40:01 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f73433c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:49 -!- hsrt [trsh@93-141-70-64.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:41:05 -!- bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-136-248-12.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:42:33 IOW, they had excellent salespeople :D 18:42:55 -!- shofetim [~user@173-165-131-134-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 18:43:20 trsh [trsh@93-138-99-58.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 18:44:09 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:47 rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:19 hey! 18:45:24 that is a great page! 18:45:29 I was looking for that 18:45:33 err, something like that 18:46:34 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-memhetbmbxfmktti] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:46:34 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 18:48:07 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:48:56 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:51:33 fe[nl]ix: see, you *can* sell lisp :P 18:51:33 I like this too 18:51:35 http://lispgamesdev.blogspot.com/ 18:51:58 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable136.252-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:52:26 wolgo: #lispgames is probably where you want to be at 18:52:36 -!- lordakinator [~igaray@host230.190-3-1.static.telmex.net.ar] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:52:39 thanks, tcr. Sorry --- had my notifications thingie off. 18:53:20 I like this room 18:54:29 TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 18:55:08 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:56:00 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:56:03 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:11 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:16 Hum. 18:56:33 I'm redoing ASDF's TRAVERSE because it sucks badly performance-wise 18:56:51 and I'm finding plenty of broken functionality that has probably never ever worked. 18:56:59 Should I gut it out, or try to fix it? 18:57:40 like, taking the component-name of an operation 18:57:56 or calling a function with the wrong number of arguments 18:58:19 obviously, noone ever used any of that crap. 18:58:26 Fare: is there any official syntax for specifying versions of dependencies? 18:58:51 or even idea of one 18:58:59 p_l: no, but there's an unofficial one that may or may not have been unbroken recently. 18:59:05 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:11 (:version "foo" "1.6") 18:59:15 If no one ever really understood TRAVERSE, how comes changing its behavior should be regarded as backwards-incompatible? 18:59:16 -!- benny [~benny@i577A13EC.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:35 I think I understand TRAVERSE now. 18:59:48 Was is documented? 18:59:54 I'm refactoring it, simplifying it, making its behavior O(n) instead of O(n^3). 19:00:20 -!- afa [~afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [Quit: afa] 19:00:20 tcr: plenty of code relies on it working as it is. 19:00:23 Fare: Are you going to fix traversal order as well? 19:00:26 Oh :/ 19:00:45 In how far? 19:00:47 tcr: until there's a definitive test suite of "all the systems that depend on it", we cannot just change it. 19:00:47 Fare: I've got three additions to ASDF that I need to finalize into something I could send patch for, one concerns a central directory based on package database (a'la GHC), another for few hooks for some extra declarative definitions and the versioning idea. 19:01:14 tcr: once there's a good versioning of ASDF itself, I'll be less fearful of incompatible changes. 19:01:16 konr [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has joined #lisp 19:01:21 e.g. for ASDF 3 instead of ASDF 2. 19:01:25 or for XCVB. 19:01:43 Fare: You could add a :traverse-sensibly argument to defsystem that would use better traversal order :) 19:01:47 p_l: I'm not sure what you mean 19:01:51 benny` [~benny@i577A13EC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:51 One could have completely redone ASDF2, call it asdf2, and ask vendors to ship both versions 19:03:46 -!- benny` is now known as benny 19:06:51 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 19:07:01 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-084-063-211-153.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:07:18 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229115201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 19:07:52 Fare: the file-based central-directory (i.e. the "find asd file of that name and load it") doesn't really support versioning or inspection (even worse, the case where one system with different versions is available). 19:07:54 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:08:50 I wanted to make a "database" (basically a file that could be #'READ) which would work as map of packages installed. Several of those could be merged, so for example a package map could be provided with libCL and merged with local installation. 19:09:44 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:09:47 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:06 versioning: I was thinking of something like (:version (1 2 6)) for specifying version 1.2.6 - this way you can easily specify that you want anything in 1.2.x etc. 19:10:09 -!- benny [~benny@i577A13EC.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:16 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 19:11:41 and for hooks - I wanted to have a standard way to specify test systems for libraries, which would point to asd file that would load tests and their dependencies. Similar hook could be done for documentation generation. 19:12:02 -!- chops__ [~chops@99-189-122-19.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:12:14 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-90-141.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:13:08 for instance, did you know that since 2003-03-16, you were meant to be able to do (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :foo :force '(:bar :baz)) ? 19:13:22 but it NEVER EVER POSSIBLY COULD WORK, because of some obvious bug. 19:13:33 darkestkhan1 [~darkestkh@109.243.243.39] has joined #lisp 19:14:29 -!- darkestkhan1 [~darkestkh@109.243.243.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:52 -!- xan_ [~xan@72-254-59-233.client.stsn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:16:14 darkestkhan [~darkestkh@109.243.243.39] has joined #lisp 19:16:46 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:18:00 milanj [~milanj_@79.101.78.241] has joined #lisp 19:18:17 psilord [~psilord@merlin.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:18:34 grrrr.... ASSOC! 19:18:40 should be using GETHASH 19:20:05 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 19:20:19 Fare: Not on an alist it shouldn't ;) 19:21:27 -!- psilord [~psilord@merlin.cs.wisc.edu] has left #lisp 19:23:14 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:23:41 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:23:55 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:24:46 -!- konr [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:27:47 GRRRR. 19:28:04 Krystof, do you have any attachment to ASDF's TRAVERSE? Did danb have any? 19:28:12 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:29:08 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:15 *Xach* messes with asdf::traverse in buildapp 19:30:13 Good evening! 19:32:25 Phoodus [foo@174-26-247-120.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:13 Xach: do you rely on its internal behaviour or only results? 19:33:23 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.155] has joined #lisp 19:33:24 beach: good afternoon! 19:33:38 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@rrcs-24-105-134-152.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 19:34:08 Fare: internal behavior. i'm happy to have my use of it break, though -- it's hackish to the extreme. 19:35:39 konr [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has joined #lisp 19:35:50 do you know about repo-install ? 19:35:51 Xach: what do you rely on? 19:36:02 for ASDF 1.680, I'm transforming TRAVERSE. 19:36:14 Actually, I better jump to 1.700 after such surgery! 19:37:15 Fare: I'm ready to include ASDF2 in ABCL. Should I wait for the TRANSVERSE surgery? 19:37:20 Fare: I have an :around method that gathers dependency calling info in order to display information about why certain systems are loaded 19:37:38 easyE: yes and no. 19:37:41 Fare: e.g. ";; loading foo (needed by bar, baz, fribble)" 19:37:55 I mean, you can include it now all right, but be ready to update some time afterwards. 19:38:18 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:38:20 Xach: which API functions do you use? 19:38:26 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:38:33 Right. Well, we have a release in two weeks. 19:38:42 the visiting stuff? 19:39:01 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:39:06 easyE: I'd rather see ABCL include ASDF 2 than ASDF 1, if only because of upgrade headaches with 1. 19:39:18 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:39:22 Yeah. 19:39:30 konr1 [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has joined #lisp 19:39:32 upgrading from ASDF 2 to ASDF 2, at least you don't have to handle double configuration issues. 19:39:33 Fare: no API functions. just asdf:traverse. 19:39:36 :: rather 19:39:48 Xach: how do you get the list of needed? 19:39:54 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:59 kwinz3 [kwinz@213162090185.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 19:40:01 what if pkgdcl is needed by all the creation? 19:40:13 -!- konr [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:40:17 Fare: pushing the current system on a stack. 19:40:54 Xach: well, I'm going to go on with what I do. Be prepared to update your code and/or send me bug requests when 1.700 is out. 19:41:16 Hopefully, 1.700 will take less than 2 minutes to traverse QRes... 19:41:24 Fare: no worries...i doubt sbcl will update any time soon. 19:41:52 I was hoping for a release 2 in May, with SBCL being part of the celebration. 19:42:23 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 19:42:51 *Xach* hopes in one hand, wishes in the other 19:46:34 Fare: the function I should use to replace *load-truename* in ASDF2 is SYSTEM-RELATIVE-PATHNAME? 19:46:44 easyE: not just in asdf2! 19:46:50 True, true. 19:48:02 ASDF2? What about XCVB? 19:49:28 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.12] has joined #lisp 19:49:55 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:50:07 Fare: How long does it currently take to traverse qres? 19:51:06 Xach: Is system-relative-pathname already there in ASDF Classic\tm? 19:51:14 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-90-141.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:51:38 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:46 yes it is... never mind. 19:52:41 -!- Guest67355 [~chatzilla@pool-72-90-115-146.ptldor.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 19:52:43 benny [~benny@i577A13EC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:44 Fare: Are you going to redo the full logic of TRAVERSE? 19:52:45 sellout: depends. A whole lot when I'm using the qres.asd spat out by xcvb 19:52:57 rpg: yes and no. 19:53:28 I'm rewriting it in a cleaner way, that doesn't involve appending stuff, that looks up things in hash-tables rather than linear list scans. 19:53:39 and that breaks it up into functions. 19:53:39 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-135-10.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:56 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 19:54:01 I won't move the RELEASE tag until it's been tried out. 19:54:33 *Fare* realizes that since he now maintains ASDF, he can move some of the stuff required by POIU into ASDF. 19:56:10 Fare: see, it's not so bad :) 19:57:07 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-48-43.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:58:08 shofetim [~user@173-165-131-134-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:13 xinming [~hyy@125.109.76.43] has joined #lisp 19:59:52 BTW, is #S reading still broken in SBCL because of backquotes? 19:59:54 Fare: You're a braver man than I. 20:00:04 or crazierl 20:00:07 Fare: how big is that qres.asd, anyway? 20:00:15 or procrastinating at more important things. 20:01:03 tcr: I find that using the "paste to repl" isn't working for me on lists of objects.... 20:01:17 tcr: Gives me errors about trying to use an object as a function. 20:01:27 rpg: 564106 564241 16385791 obj-ne/qres-ccl-xne.asd 20:01:28 Can anyone see a reason in the HyperSpec why short-float could not have better precision than single-float? 20:01:43 ferada [~user@f054014094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:05 rpg: you have to put a quote before it 20:02:18 it's way too big -- there's a bug in XCVB. 20:02:20 but still. 20:02:27 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 20:02:39 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:47 Fare: wc -l ? 20:02:57 grep ':file' obj-ne/*asd | wc => 1488 1500 13645 20:03:19 it's just listing all the dependencies and dependency dependencies, etc. 20:03:28 -!- kwinz3 [kwinz@213162090185.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:30 -!- htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:03:35 I should add a optimize pass to XCVB to not include redundant dependencies. Sigh. 20:03:38 impressive 20:03:53 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-48-43.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:04:00 htk_ [~htk_@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 20:04:18 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:04:30 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:05:08 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:05:15 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:05:22 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:34 maden [~maden@dsl-152-54.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 20:05:43 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:06:14 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Client Quit] 20:06:28 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:06:33 -!- psc_bw [~psc_bw@vpn.breakwater.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:06:58 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:09:14 'cause on a 64-bit platform, single float could be an immediate value, and short-float could be as well, but not one of the IEEE recognized ones. 20:10:33 xan_ [~xan@72-254-59-233.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:41 hey I want to use a debugger to figure out how something works, namely a do form. Is there a way to invoke a debugger in emacs for lisp programs? 20:11:24 wolgo: one way is to insert (break) where you want the debugger to be invoked. 20:11:40 wolgo: if the code is running, you can use C-c C-c in the repl to interrupt into the debugger 20:11:50 oh okay 20:12:01 so (break) is like a breakpoint? 20:12:17 actually I can look that up 20:12:26 clhs break 20:12:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_break.htm 20:12:29 zeugma [~user@ccfl-a4f-3.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 20:12:39 Xach: Having to answer that, always makes me upset. 20:13:00 beach: "insert (break)"? 20:13:06 beach: because it'd be kinda weird if short-float was more precise than single-float, though I think it'd still be compliant 20:13:08 yeah 20:13:15 *froydnj* wades into the c.l.l asdf discussion 20:13:25 beach: it would be nice if there was slime magic for it, like the C-u C-c C-c thing. 20:13:53 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066170.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 20:13:55 hey I didn't know that there was a function called break! 20:14:01 sorry beach 20:14:14 beach: though doing that might screw mightily with the contagion rules 20:14:26 beach: i can't say i personally ever use the (break) technique, but i don't know if that's because it's cumbersome and i work around it, or i didn't come to lisp from a breakpoint-using heritage, or what. 20:14:53 froydnj: I agree it's weird, but single-float "feels" like a 32-bit IEEE float, but in a 64-bit architecture, you can make immediate floats of (say) 62-bits. What do I call them if not short-float? 20:15:18 immediate-float? 20:15:26 why not call 32-bit IEEE floats short-floats and your mutant 62-bits float single-float? 20:15:32 tic: no such thing in the standard. 20:15:43 beach, cltl3! 20:15:53 I find it interesting how important a "good" debugger seems to some people, when I far prefer printf and a few kinds of post-mortem analysis. 20:16:16 nyef, it's not quite as fun when you have a 20+-level deep stack. 20:16:25 and when you're not quite certain what you want to poke. 20:16:29 froydnj: That would be a possibility, but I personally think of "single float" as an IEEE 32-bit float. 20:16:33 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:16:39 tic: If you like. 20:16:49 beach: well, time to be disabused of your C roots, then 20:16:51 Perhaps, and I have occasionally been known to put a call to INSPECT in a few places, but... 20:16:53 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 20:17:18 beach: 12.1.1.2 also strongly implies a monotonic precision ordering among float types 20:17:46 Xach: After having used gdb on C programs for a number of years, I am disappointed in the debugging tools we propose. 20:17:53 -!- joga [joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:17:57 joga [joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 20:17:58 brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has joined #lisp 20:18:09 froydnj: Ah, must have missed that. Hold on... 20:18:19 beach: Maybe a Luke Gorrie-type will arrive to improve the situation 20:18:37 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has left #lisp 20:18:47 beach: after all, for many years people happily used ILISP... 20:19:40 nyef, my use case is very different from yours, though -- when I think "debugger", it's attaching gdb to an Opera process running on some weird embedded Linux device and trying to figure out where stuff crashes. 20:20:39 I think I am with tic here, as opposed to Xach and nyef. 20:20:41 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 20:20:57 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 20:21:09 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 20:21:33 beach: What position do you think I hold that you oppose? 20:22:10 prxq [~mommer@g226206039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:22:57 Xach: I might be inventing things of course, but I put some interpretation into "I didn't come to lisp from a breakpoint-using heritage". 20:23:40 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:23:49 breakpoints are excellent, but you need editor support to make their use convenient 20:23:51 beach: Ah, I see. Well, I would be delighted to see a drastic improvement in tools from a paradigm with which I'm unfamiliar. (That is how I view slime's arrival.) 20:23:53 hi 20:23:59 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066170.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:24:10 drwho_ [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:13 -!- konr1 [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:24:23 beach: Until that happens, I have a mode of working that works well enough for me that I don't consider trying to drastically improve the tools myself. 20:24:28 konr [~konrad@187.106.49.73] has joined #lisp 20:24:30 hello prxq 20:24:42 *Xach* is also not an emacs hacker 20:24:57 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:07 does anyone use ASDF's :do-first slot explicitly? 20:25:16 what's that ? 20:25:17 I thought the line between hacker and user were very thin, when it came to Emacs? Thinking of the Emacs/Vim/Lisp Venn diagram. :-) 20:25:26 hi prxq 20:25:38 prxq: will you come to Lisbon ? 20:25:44 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:25:50 fe[nl]ix: no, unfortunately. 20:26:02 tic: i've written a lot of elisp tools for myself, but nothing really approaches the neat things slime does with emacs (overlays, popup debugger, repl, etc) 20:26:34 *luis* saw today how the Lisp Machine could interrupt any process, modify frames, restart, etc. 20:26:34 fe[nl]ix: but I'll try to make it to the next ELS/ELC/... 20:27:03 Xach: Well, let me share one thing then: after having been a C hacker for a number of years, and having seen my life improve with GDB, I again found myself with inferior tools wrt CL. 20:27:10 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:27:15 *p_l* only got to see how X11 failed for his OG2 :/ 20:27:17 luis: why was the LM revived ? 20:27:38 just for fun ? 20:27:46 The screen, keyboard, mouse, mic, speakers are connected to the Lisp Machine via a fiber optics cable. 20:27:55 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75542a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:57 :-O 20:28:01 fe[nl]ix: I think it'll be demoed at ELS. 20:28:08 yay 20:28:27 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:28:35 fe[nl]ix: António Leitão was hoping to find early versions of Siscog's product in there too. 20:28:39 -!- darkestkhan [~darkestkh@109.243.243.39] has left #lisp 20:28:56 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.12] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 20:29:00 oh, right 20:29:04 cool 20:29:28 Xach: Granted, CL doesn't need those tools as much as C does, but I have the same bitter taste in my mouth when I say that to my students as I had when I was using Scheme and told them that they could write their own object system. 20:30:36 Heh. 20:31:44 So, again, I can close my eyes, pretend everying is fine, or I can try to figure out what's wrong and try to improve it. 20:32:11 fe[nl]ix: that machine had the flavors object system. Did you know that the root class is VANILLA? :) 20:32:20 lol 20:32:37 luis: Heh. That's news to me, and I've written a bloody LispM emulator. 20:33:33 Today was quite a geek fest at the office, heh. 20:33:37 -!- sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 20:33:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@72-254-59-233.client.stsn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:51 retro Lisp geek fest, anyway 20:34:14 luis: Congratulations! What was the occasion, and what happened? 20:34:25 beach: GDB inferior to a lisp debugger? That probably depends on the implementation, right? 20:34:29 which lisp machine is it, luis? 20:34:37 TI Explorer II 20:34:50 neat. I've never seen one of those in real life. 20:35:06 prxq: I find GDB excellent for C. I find everything offered to me in CL inferior. 20:35:17 beach: my employer has two Lisp Machines and I think one of them will be demoed at the upcoming ELS. 20:35:40 luis: That will be great! 20:35:59 beach: what can you do in GDB that you can't do in the CL debugger? 20:36:01 *beach* needs to remember to register 20:36:18 prxq: Are you serious? 20:36:27 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.77.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:37:01 mugrido [~jbelbo@adsl-99-140-245-77.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:08 beach: well, yes 20:37:32 Fare: what is it? things to do before an operation runs? 20:37:52 prxq: set hardware breakpoints 20:38:11 Compared with SBCL? A reliable backtrace, for starters... 20:38:14 prxq: Set a breakpoint in arbitrary code, stepping by line (or expression in Lisp I suppose), finding the value of variables (In CL, they are usually unavailable), run to the end of a function invocation, inspect memory, I could go on... 20:38:21 I enjoyed the GC anectotes. Like how they would restart one of the older LMs whenever the GC kicked in since that was faster. 20:38:43 hahaha 20:38:56 luis: Heh. Or turn the GC off, hack for a day, then force a GC and go home for the night? 20:39:21 beach: the values of variables - that depends on the debug level, no? 20:39:24 xan_ [~xan@adsl-207-214-87-58.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:39 Apparently some later models had incremental hardware-supported GC. Not sure if the Explorer II is one of those models. 20:39:40 if your C compiler has optimzied them away, you are out of luck 20:39:40 Or how the first LispM editors were written to not cons since they didn't have a GC at that point? 20:39:43 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 20:39:48 prxq: I always have the debug level 3 in SBCL. Not enough. 20:40:03 luis: The Explorer I is one of those models, the II is an elaboration on the design. 20:40:07 prxq: the same thing with many CL implementations 20:40:14 ya, sbcl is strange in that. ISTR that cmucl is better in that respect 20:40:49 Mmm. On my list for later this year is attacking the debug infrastructure. 20:40:52 prxq: Hence my frustration, and my creation of SICL, which of course might never happen. 20:41:12 what is SICL? 20:41:21 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:41:22 *sigh* 20:41:37 beach: I understand. 20:41:39 i'd settle for a FAQ. ;) 20:42:16 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:42:18 froydnj, yes apparently you can specify things to do before an operation runs. 20:42:23 Fade: Don't worry about it for now. Just another project of mine to create a better CL implementation. 20:42:28 nyef: that would be great 20:42:49 Fare: I could see that being useful, though I've never used it myself. just a :before method, effectively. 20:43:31 beach: i can't find it now, but there was already something similar. I think someone in Japan wrote large parts of CL in CL. 20:43:32 my current ASDF refactorings are breaking POIU. 20:43:43 After I'm done with ASDF, I'll have to unbreak POIU. 20:43:47 grrr 20:43:51 POIU? 20:43:55 prxq: Yes, I am aware of that project. 20:43:55 tcr: So I should just put a quote in the repl and then do the "paste to repl"? OK, will do. Thanks. 20:44:15 beach: how was that called again? 20:44:15 minion: poiu 20:44:16 poiu: poiu is an asdf variant that compiles in parallel. http://www.cliki.net/poiu 20:44:33 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:44:37 rpg: Or afterwards 20:44:37 prxq: I'm thinking of doing something like my radical-refactoring/genesis branch, though more as a "refactoring to understand" than a "refactoring because it's a bloody nuisance to work with such a huge file". 20:44:44 prxq: You are asking *me* with that bad memory? 20:45:04 :-) 20:45:25 prxq: SACLA 20:45:30 ah, SACLA 20:45:33 thanks 20:45:44 (wow, that took too much effort) 20:45:56 -!- zeugma [~user@ccfl-a4f-3.unl.edu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:46:00 prxq: Don't do that to me again, please :-) 20:46:12 the partical common lisp implementation 20:46:15 luis: 3600 and Ivory had incremental GC, afaik. Dunno about TI 20:46:16 beach: sorry :-) 20:46:21 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 20:46:24 beach: I'll try to remember that 20:46:36 prxq: You are forgiven! :) 20:46:42 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:48 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: b] 20:47:02 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 20:47:15 p_l: Having written code to simulate the hardware, I can tell you that the Explorer I CPU has incremental GC support. 20:47:43 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-198-169.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:48:00 nyef: I think this one was from similar timeframe to 3600? 20:48:00 Though it's a weird combination of page-table bits and some microcode tests on every boxed memory access that does it. 20:48:15 Somewhere around there, maybe. 20:48:34 iirc Ivory (at least) had microcode, pagetable and mmu with special support for paging and i/o. 20:48:37 The Explorer I was derived by TI from the LMI Lambda, which was a re-badged CADR. 20:49:38 weren't all the lisp machines tagged architectures? 20:49:44 The Explorer II CPU has actual cache, and some GC support called a "transporter", which apparently reduces the load from the GC a bit. 20:49:54 Fade: Yes, they were. 20:51:50 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:52:41 doh. I just figured that one of the things I added to traverse during refactoring was actually not needed. Sigh. No need to pass around a list of components that will need to be eagerly flag as forced - just pass around the flag as a return value. Yay for synthetic tree attributes. 20:53:27 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.92] has joined #lisp 20:55:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:43 Kustnamenkloate [titan@unaffiliated/appetite] has joined #lisp 20:58:56 Some information: I pay vng, maus, and longkid a monthly salary which is small but significant, to write Lisp code. They are about to finish their Sudoku application, and I need your help to give them feedback. 20:58:57 that LM had 16 MB of RAM and 300 MB of disk or so. I think that's impresive for late 80s, early 90s. 20:59:57 I am essentially paying them to grab any CL project and improve it, but this has turned out to be hard, so I have been helping them a lot. 21:00:35 TR2N [email@89-180-239-38.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 21:00:47 beach, what projects do you have in mind for them to work on? 21:01:08 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 21:01:10 I would be grateful if you could download their code, give them feedback, make sure they turn it into good stuff, suggest new projects for them, etc. 21:02:29 tic: Making Vietnam a great country for writing software. Intermediate steps are less interesting to me. It depends on what they want to do, what people need, and what they are capable of doing right now. 21:02:41 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:27 Aha. I thought you had specific projects in mind. 21:03:45 tic: See it this way: I am paying them to be full #lisp members. 21:03:53 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-70-29.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:04:02 beach, *nod* quit cool. 21:04:07 quite, too. 21:04:08 tic: Nah, I just want Vietnam to be pro-Lisp 21:04:53 tic: It is already working in some ways, so vng and maus will do their internship with Didier Verna in Paris. 21:05:19 Neat. 21:05:22 beach: how did you manage to convince Didier ? 21:05:25 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:05:44 fe[nl]ix: I was not part of that. Marie did it I think. 21:05:59 :D 21:06:12 Alright. Better get to bed. Builds to make, gdb sessions to endure. Night, #lisp! 21:06:21 tic: 'night! 21:06:37 tic: Sleep well. 21:06:45 Thanks guys. *Zzz* 21:06:50 I think it is best for them to work together in an unfamiliar and hostile place like Paris :) 21:07:15 The food is terrible too! :) 21:07:16 heh, hostile 21:08:16 -!- zorn [~jz@206-248-133-240.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:08:28 felideon: Vietnamese food is very refined. Many Vietnamese people find French food to hard to take. I am glad to say we have an exception to that in Bx at the moment. 21:08:36 saikat_ [~saikat@ppp-71-139-198-221.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:52 beach: "too hard to take" ?? 21:09:05 beach: lucky them! in my university years, I was told Lisp was only for fp and it was dead long ago.. we were forced to study PHP instead.. and prolog.. 21:09:07 they can survive on grecs, panini, and crepes :) 21:09:13 -!- saikat_ is now known as saikat 21:09:14 beach: send them to the US, we have burgers and pizza. They'll stomach anything after that -- even british food. 21:09:30 fe[nl]ix: Too fat, too much meat, too much wheat! 21:09:35 zorn [~jz@206-248-133-244.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:00 ejs [~eugen@94-248-72-226.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 21:10:07 udzinari: We work hard on our indoctrination programs! :) 21:10:25 felideon: If they have the money! 21:11:06 erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:11:29 sykopomp: I see, yes. But they come here with the suitcase full of instant noodles, because they can't take French food after a few days. 21:12:02 [And French food is not too bad if you ask me] 21:12:09 lol 21:12:22 -!- shofetim [~user@173-165-131-134-utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 21:13:00 French food is quite good 21:13:06 beach: it's surprising, tbh. French food is pretty famous for how good it is. 21:13:15 at least what you guys do with beef, pork and chicken :) 21:13:18 the farther you go northwards in Europe, the more fat they use 21:13:21 p_l: You're telling me? 21:13:25 beach: keep them away from Iceland 21:13:36 beach: opinion of non-french ;-) 21:13:51 fe[nl]ix: Yeah, good fish, but *too* expensive. 21:13:55 fe[nl]ix: njom njom, fat 21:14:01 *_3b* suspects 'good' or not isn't the issue 21:14:22 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:14:41 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:15:17 sykopomp: it takes some getting used to. Fat and sugar are addictive 21:15:17 sykopomp: There are different issues. There are cultures where quality of food is a premium: France, Vietnam, Japan. Then there is the question what people like, which is quite different. 21:15:40 hamburger 21:15:49 deep dish pizza <3 21:15:56 truly a wonder of the world 21:16:05 *sigh* 21:16:41 eek 21:16:56 I love vietnamese food 21:16:58 sykopomp: chicago style :) 21:17:01 and korean 21:17:08 I just had a French colleague who went to Vietnam for the first time, in fact it was his first time outside Europe. He didn't want to come back, and one reason was the excellent food there. 21:17:15 *felideon* would like to have rhubarb tart agian some day 21:17:31 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:34 -!- wolgo [~noige@69.59.130.52] has left #lisp 21:17:56 food in Vietnam really is great 21:18:32 prxq: Definitely! I guess you were there recently right? And for the first time? 21:19:14 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 21:19:19 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.155] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:19:57 beach: yes, and yes. 21:21:00 prxq: So you can see why me and my colleagues are eager to keep going back there, right? :) 21:21:26 indeed :-) Well the weather was good, and the people are nice. 21:21:46 i liked it a lot. It's unfortunate that it is so far away 21:21:49 prxq: And the food, etc. 21:22:08 beach: which uni do you visit there? 21:22:52 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:55 btw, is there some comparison regarding efficiency of pure CL databases in scale to dataset? 21:23:04 prxq: Part of our masters program in Software Engineering is given at the national university. 21:23:06 (something with indexes is needed) 21:23:31 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.92] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:23:55 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:24:09 -!- drwho_ [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 21:24:33 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:25:12 -!- davertron [~Dave@74-92-46-229-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:26:58 p_l: you could test it with uzbl.datastore 21:27:07 Fare: Tell me again why you are going? 21:27:08 p_l: manardb doesn't have indexes, so that's a bit of a problem 21:27:11 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 21:27:18 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-159-177.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:28:27 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 21:30:44 beach: to VN? tourism, trying to hire, etc. 21:32:07 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:32:41 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-174-165.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:33:30 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066169.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 21:35:19 wolgo [~noige@69.59.130.52] has joined #lisp 21:35:29 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:35:31 Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.209] has joined #lisp 21:36:47 -!- merl15__ [~merl@188-22-163-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:37:34 -!- erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:38:32 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 21:38:49 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 21:43:01 -!- mle-lucca [~emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:43:07 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:43:33 -!- sgrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:44:31 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:44:43 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:45:10 -!- mugrido [~jbelbo@adsl-99-140-245-77.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:45:34 peterbb [~peterbb@ves1-1x-dhcp356.uio.no] has joined #lisp 21:45:37 rapacity [~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:20 enthymeme [~kraken@s215n124.csun.edu] has joined #lisp 21:48:05 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:17 -!- cddr [~user@5ac75e68.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:18 beach: no relation to the technical university? 21:49:27 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:29 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:62d6:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:41 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:62d6:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 21:55:15 prxq: Not really, but they are kind of uncluded as well. I gave Lisp talk there recently. 21:56:06 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:62d6:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Client Quit] 21:56:07 -!- Samuel9999 [tt@unaffiliated/samuel9999] has quit [Quit: co co] 21:56:15 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 21:56:37 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4855:eb9a:0:217:f2ff:fee7:72d7] has quit [Quit: palter] 21:56:38 beach: when? 21:57:39 -!- bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Adios] 21:58:02 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:32 I year ago as I recall. 21:59:17 But I also talk about Lisp when I give seminars. 21:59:39 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 22:00:44 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:50 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:02:05 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:08 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:15 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:02:23 *Fare* writes a method on update-instance-for-redefined-class 22:02:24 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 22:02:27 yay for hot-upgrade! 22:02:35 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:42 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:38 yay! my refactored TRAVERSE *looks like* it works! 22:03:58 not just it, but the tens of small changes I made all over ASDF. 22:04:00 Sigh. 22:04:09 not so? 22:04:28 ok, it didn't work so well: it recompiles too much. 22:05:33 is there a key binding to exit ccl like C-d to sbcl? 22:05:41 I am tired of typing (quit) 22:05:47 why was again mk:defsystem superseded? 22:05:48 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:06:00 leo2007: normally C-d hit enough times will do 22:06:09 hmm, wait 22:06:28 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:53 leo2007: three times does it here 22:07:49 prxq: do you know why three times? 22:07:56 prxq: read the XCVB paper to see why mk:defsystem sucked 22:08:08 prxq: several reasons. It was inextensible in ways that people needed to extend it at the time; it required people to specify absolute filesystem locations; it had hideous "portability" code for filesystem interaction 22:08:10 billstclai [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:11 (or did mk:defsystem have some feature not in the original defsystem?) 22:08:15 C-\ can do it but it generates a crash report in snow leopard. 22:08:34 leo2007: no idea, some kind of policy thing. I think cmucl needs 10 C-d's. 22:08:44 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:08:50 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 22:09:14 sbcl only needs one 22:09:16 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:09:16 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:09:25 Krystof: right, the absolute pathname issue, and the strange portability layers 22:09:55 OK, I had misbalanced a paren, looks like it's doing better. 22:10:02 leo2007: one typo and your image is dead. I presume that's why someone thought maybe better if three are needed 22:10:08 *Fare* runs make test 22:10:14 Did mk:defsystem not interact well with LPNs, then? 22:10:50 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 22:11:15 wait - when should the update-instance-for-redefined-class thing be defined? before of after the new defclass? 22:11:21 between the old and the new? 22:11:26 -!- ejs [~eugen@94-248-72-226.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:11:29 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:12:01 nyef: LPNs..... GAAAAAAAAAAAH! 22:13:40 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: lockups are like pokemon.] 22:14:12 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 22:15:02 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:15:51 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 22:16:12 *beach* thinks it's bidtime. Goo dnght veryone! 22:16:37 anyone in dresden or berlin this weekend? i'll go for a wedding, and saying hi in person to some lispnicks would be fun... 22:16:47 sleep well beach 22:17:20 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:17:29 attila_lendvai, plenty of lispers in Berlin ... see their meetup announcements 22:17:40 only 4 tests failing out of 22... progress! 22:18:00 -!- prxq [~mommer@g226206039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:18:49 well, we'll only drop by berlin on friday and on sunday 22:18:57 most time i'll spend in dresden 22:19:27 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:19:44 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.209] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:20:11 ...not that i'll have that much time to kill, but still... 22:22:51 Fare: what prompts the GAAAAAH? 22:24:37 ... can I add LPN to source registry? 22:27:44 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:29:24 jockc [~jockc@dsl-206-251-71-75.dynamic.linkline.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:35 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:30:59 Question: using ACL 8.2 and Slime 22:31:24 when I ^C^K I get a message like '(7614 7510)' is not of the expected type 'NUMBER' 22:31:36 anyone seen that? 22:31:51 jockc: is that in your source at all? 22:31:58 no 22:32:13 it happens to several different unrelated source files I have tried 22:32:23 something is funky in my config but I dunno what 22:32:23 jockc: ok, had to ask. I can't really help then, sorry about that. 22:32:27 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 22:32:31 -!- rread [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:32:32 seems like it started happening round the time I installed ACL 8.2 22:32:37 8.1 worked fine 22:32:41 -!- tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:33:12 if I COMPILE-FILE I don't get the message, things compile fine 22:33:16 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:34:08 dnolen [~dnolen@63.108.122.113] has joined #lisp 22:34:19 rread_ [~rread@63.204.222.2] has joined #lisp 22:35:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:35:55 <_3b> jockc: new slime to go with new lisps helps sometimes 22:36:05 yeah I'll try that 22:36:36 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:39:47 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:40:48 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:41:46 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:27 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@s215n124.csun.edu] has quit [Quit: brb, class] 22:42:38 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 22:44:27 Xach: "LPNs" 22:44:38 22 passing and 0 failing 22:44:42 yay for ASDF 1.700 ! 22:44:59 oops. break lispworks. 22:46:01 GAH! 22:46:40 Lispworks refuses to precompile the (when (find-class ...) (defmethod update-instance-f-r-c ...)) without a warning! 22:46:45 *Fare* calls EVAL to the rescue 22:47:58 walkshoe [~55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-bggknmscudnvsoyt] has joined #lisp 22:48:10 Fare: I'm researching LPNs and have been trying to get success and failure stories about them. Got a juicy failure story? 22:48:33 Hello I am actually a woman! I have one of those where your penis goes! Now the challange I want to issue is that one of you make an actually useful program with Lisp. The one who wins gets to have sex with me. I feel pretty safe! 22:48:35 using LPNs on SBCL is a failure for anything that isn't strict LPN syntax. 22:48:43 -!- rapacity [~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:48:49 Ergo, can't be used for arbitrary ASDF / XCVB sources. 22:49:22 tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:49:26 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 22:49:29 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:31 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-bggknmscudnvsoyt 22:49:41 Fare: ok, thanks for the info. 22:49:42 -!- walkshoe [~55c89673@gateway/web/freenode/x-bggknmscudnvsoyt] has left #lisp 22:49:45 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 22:50:41 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 22:51:13 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:51:50 rapacity [~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:59 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 22:54:16 allegro 8.2 express is taking forever to compile asdf 1.700 then borking on too-much-heap abort. :-( 22:54:44 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:56:17 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:36 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-174-165.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:58:30 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:24 *Fare* steps back from debug 3 22:59:58 and allegro express works again. Sigh. 23:00:53 -!- gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:56 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:04 Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 23:01:15 enthymeme [~kraken@s215n124.csun.edu] has joined #lisp 23:04:55 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:07:39 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:08:39 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 23:09:08 Fare: Would it be a good idea to provide certain default binary mappings for some implementations? 23:10:25 -!- Borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:47 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:11:09 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 23:11:17 *p_l* had some issues with running new ASDF in SBCL because of lack of mappings for contribs 23:13:04 wgl` [~wgl@232.sub-75-207-140.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:29 -!- peterbb [~peterbb@ves1-1x-dhcp356.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:13:38 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:13:44 p_l: as in? 23:13:49 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:14:26 *Fare* pushes 1.700 but doesn't call it a release. 23:14:36 since I didn't have the directory structure for the mappings, and SBCL tried to load contribs by fasl, it caused errors on startup if I just loaded new asdf at the top of .sbclrc 23:15:16 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:15:22 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:52 p_l: uh? 23:16:08 I don't understand. 23:16:38 Fare: it crashes if run with binary output translations 23:16:51 crashes??? 23:17:02 can you send a detailed, reproducible bug report? 23:17:51 Fare: right now I'm reading through all the output to see if I can be sure that it's general and not just related to my setup 23:18:09 if it's related to my setup, I plan on writing how to avoid such case 23:18:37 Borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:20:13 bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-136-248-12.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:14 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 23:20:27 btw, I've found a company to add to list of CL companies: http://en.ystok.ru/ 23:21:41 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:22:44 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:24:13 seamus-android [~alistair@host86-183-193-143.range86-183.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:49 does anyone understand in-order-to, %refresh-component-inline-methods, etc. ? 23:27:52 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:41 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 23:30:01 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 23:30:20 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:12 -!- ferada [~user@f054014094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:33:44 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:34:20 Fare: do you have any nicely readable example of output-translation configuration? 23:36:13 no, but we accept patch for the manual 23:36:26 I admit I'm happy with the defaults. 23:36:56 and see no reason to use anything else, except to please users. 23:37:00 What are you trying to do? 23:38:38 Fare: make it stop butchering sb-bsd-sockets 23:39:00 it's not butchering it for me. 23:39:05 What are you doing wrong? 23:39:14 Using a saved image but not exporting SBCL_HOME ? 23:39:41 I bet you are. Most common problem. 23:39:59 There's no way I can guess SBCL_HOME for you. 23:41:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:41:19 sohum [~sohum@unaffiliated/sohum] has joined #lisp 23:41:39 no, standard clbuild configuration with distro-supplied SBCL 23:42:24 I'm using cl-irc and have (handler-bind ... (read-loop)), but the system still throws conditions that aren't being caught 23:42:32 what am I doing wrong? 23:42:50 sohum: you don't have a condition I don't think 23:42:53 sohum: the ... is pretty important. 23:42:57 sohum: what's there? 23:43:20 Fare: anyway, it looks like I'm finding the root of the problem now. Looks like I'll have to finish my clbuild-replacement faster :) 23:43:59 Xach, nixeagle: http://lisp.pastebin.com/yBdQ20d6 23:44:41 Fare: btw, doesn't SBCL by default set LPNs for source and contribs? 23:45:20 sohum: so what do use-restart and continue-restart look like? 23:45:45 p_l: it defines a host, but it doesn't cover every included file. 23:46:12 sohum: when in rome, try using paste.lisp.org, too. 23:46:16 Xach: it doesn't have to 23:46:41 Xach: k. any point to transferring it there now? 23:46:49 p_l: how will it set them if it doesn't know where SBCL_HOME is??? 23:46:59 -!- benny [~benny@i577A13EC.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:47:08 p_l: (asdf::getenv "SBCL_HOME") please! 23:47:39 sohum: Sure. I expect several annotations to come. 23:47:44 Xach: they're pretty trivial - just (use-value #/?) and (invoke-restart (find-restart 'continue)). The handler-bindings aren't being triggered - I get the condition prompts myself. 23:47:57 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 23:48:48 sohum pasted "handlers not handling" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97843 23:49:25 Fare: I'm starting to unravel an unholy mess right now, which new ASDF just uncovered... 23:50:30 OK, 1.700 and 1.701 are officially broken. Rats. 23:50:56 btw, isn't sb-concurrency part of 1.0.37? 23:51:24 sohum: could you annotate with the backtrace? 23:52:15 benny [~benny@i577A8DFD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:52:28 Lis [~Lis@dialbs-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:38 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:52:46 do NOT use 1.701. 23:52:47 hi all 23:52:59 It doesn't recurse properly into systems... grrrr 23:54:13 sohum annotated #97843 "trace of CL-IRC:NO-SUCH-REPLY" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97843#1 23:55:20 benny` [~benny@i577A761D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:55:23 sohum: does (read-loop) create a new thread? 23:55:48 sohum: does CONNECT return? when it does, the handler-bind is no longer in scope. 23:56:21 Xach: I believe (read-loop) does, yes 23:56:33 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:56:41 sohum: is read-loop part of cl-irc, or is it something you wrote? what does it look like? 23:56:44 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8DFD.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:57:01 -!- benny` is now known as benny 23:57:15 -!- wgl` [~wgl@232.sub-75-207-140.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:57:22 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79.101.78.241] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:57:41 sohum annotated #97843 "read-loop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97843#2 23:58:16 pinterface [~pinterfac@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:27 sohum annotated #97843 "with-thread" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97843#3 23:58:56 Xach: ah, that's why. with-thread returns the thread instance... 23:59:12 Xach: uh. read-loop, technically. 23:59:23 I seem to be collecting things out of order. Sigh 23:59:25 sohum: yeah. handler-bind establishes a dynamic binding, so it's not in effect after it's exited. 23:59:43 Xach: fair enough. Any ideas on how to fix it?