00:02:32 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-176.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:03:05 what is the easiest way to code something like the scp command in CL? cl-openssl? 00:03:19 nunb [~nundan@59.178.200.73] has joined #lisp 00:03:36 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B69B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:03:36 I need secure remote copy, using keys or login credentials 00:05:03 -!- md` [~user@chello089173014058.chello.sk] has left #lisp 00:06:09 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.72.212] has joined #lisp 00:06:52 well, I can always have the scp command and triviall-shell it 00:07:08 probably run-program :) (also, SSL != SSH). If it happens there's a really trivial way to do it, I'd find that handy, as I need to rig up something to synchronize some files between this machine and the one at home (maybe sane people use rsync; meh.) 00:07:31 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:08:24 hefner: ssl!=ssh, but my first gut feeling was to google scp.c and read the sources 00:08:40 also folks, any OKish GUI toolkit that has drag and drop? 00:09:12 i know lambda-gtk but it's too fat to bundle just for a dialog box and drag and drop facility 00:10:24 hefner: http://www.libssh2.org/examples/scp.html 00:10:49 libssh2 looks good; minimal FFI required 00:12:16 -!- fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:42 fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 00:12:51 that looks alarmingly sane, yes. 00:12:56 I am gonna try to CFFI that next week; an ssh library will sure come handy 00:13:07 direct interaction (drag and drop) requires platform level support I'd expect to fail on unix unless you are within one gui framework, eg. Qr 00:13:12 *Qt 00:13:25 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.200.73] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:13:49 if X specifies i don't think it caught on 00:13:54 JuanDaugherty: I want _just_ for win32; and i think i can cook something up from the clozure examples and my dusty copy of Petzold 00:14:08 oh, that's totally different 00:14:10 JuanDaugherty: X does have a d'n'd protocol 00:14:33 mac and windows have the platform support I referred to 00:14:43 have had for ages 00:14:56 XDND, Motif DND too 00:15:03 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-58-28-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:15:10 I remember hacking the motif one for Nedit (remember?) 00:15:10 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 00:15:50 would dbus handle something like that? 00:17:16 anyway the API for that on windows are well established 00:17:42 yep 00:17:42 nunb [~nundan@59.178.212.226] has joined #lisp 00:21:09 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:15 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:15 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:21:15 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 00:22:05 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 00:23:38 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban2.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:25:23 slate and open slate are the same? 00:25:35 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:27:09 is any other project working on anything like: http://wiki.openslate.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Squeak_X11_Display_Morph ? 00:29:15 sorry wrong channel 00:31:17 fusss pasted "aesthetic feedback on API please" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97532 00:31:54 hefner: have time to play API architect? peek that paste for me please. 00:33:06 i have thought long and hard about mapping soap methods to lisp functions, but it's just too messy 00:34:27 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-118-216.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:34:41 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:35:23 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:36:22 -!- mon_key` [~user@74-143-13-202.static.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:54 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:42:37 -!- kom__ is now known as kom_ 00:44:22 kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk092248070132.a1.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:22 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:45:53 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 00:47:23 -!- Balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:47:57 xan_ [~xan@219.6.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:04 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.38] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:50:00 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:04:40 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:07:43 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:07:45 palter_ [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:45 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:07:45 -!- palter_ is now known as palter 01:09:05 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:14 -!- _macro [~macro@shiva.mochimedia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:18:44 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:20:39 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:25:45 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:08 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 01:30:04 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:32:29 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 01:35:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@219.6.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:45:58 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:47:22 -!- sav [~sav@189001131114.usr.predialnet.com.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:55 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:50:09 LeoDioxide [~bob@c-68-59-10-186.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:32 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:46 Anyone here use CommonQt 01:51:48 ? 01:52:14 suppose I build a tree structure out of lists, is there any way to get to the deepest right-most node with the list manipulation functions? 01:53:20 LeoDioxide: do you want the deepest, or the rightmost? 01:53:45 rightmost 01:53:48 adamvh: _8david` is the author 01:55:25 i suppose I dont care how I get there, as long as I do 01:55:39 simple recursive traversal. 01:56:01 what would be my base case? 01:56:33 when the cdr is nil 01:56:37 then you hit the car 01:56:46 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.74.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:56:53 _8david`: Do you have any tips for building CommonQt on Mac? 01:58:08 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:59:34 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:18 LeoDioxide: SICP chapter 1/2 have some standard recursion patterns 02:01:17 thanks :] 02:01:48 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 02:03:55 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:44 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 02:04:59 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:12:42 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-22-192.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:13:51 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:16:11 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 02:17:12 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:23:18 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:26:26 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:31:02 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 02:31:48 I would like to make a second function name-space for a small library. Is there some standard idiom for this? I would normally make a hash-table and throw lambda functions in there. 02:32:49 %suddenly-a-new-sub-environment! 02:32:56 :) 02:33:03 -!- LeoDioxide [~bob@c-68-59-10-186.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:33:38 sykopomp: Does that take a name for the virtual space? :P 02:33:53 sure. The virtual space is called %. 02:33:55 sykopomp: perhaps something to add in your lisp :) 02:34:29 (defun tada () (print "tada!")) (defun %tada () (print "Different subenv!")) (defun %%tada () (print "yet another!")) 02:35:21 LoL 02:35:23 _no_ 02:35:27 why not? 02:36:52 madnificent: if it's small enough, you could always wrap it up in a top-level labels/flet 02:36:53 xgp [~zhujun@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:37:12 -!- xgp [~zhujun@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:37:26 Phoodus: I'd like to allow users to add to it... I could do it in a simple list, but I think that could become overly slow 02:37:53 compile-time or runtime additions? 02:38:01 xgp [~zhujun@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:38:11 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 02:38:22 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 02:38:26 compile-time should be fair, I think 02:38:31 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-252-170-201.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 02:38:57 you could replace defun with a my-library-defun macro 02:39:14 yes, I was going to do that, but I wondered how I'd best store the results internally 02:39:18 which would scope the body such that your library is available via symbol 02:39:58 that would basically add the function to a list of functions (or -if I'm evil- just store the method definition, so it can be compiled later (which would remove the environment)) 02:40:02 hi, is this right for CL: packages don't control where and when lisp files are loaded, but only mappings from names to symbols; loading of lisp files are controlled by `REQUIRE' or other facilities like asdf 02:40:20 it'd generate (defun funcname ,params (macrolet (libcall1 () `(internal-libcall ... 02:40:22 xgp: sounds right to me 02:40:57 Phoodus: make it generate a gensymmed name and add that name to a list or hash-table 02:41:14 still the question is: should I store it internally as a list or hash-table or yet something else? 02:41:38 I want to have something similar to the difference between the variable namespace and the function namespace 02:41:41 does it really matter? you'd have API functions to add stuff, and the macroexpander would grab whatever definitions are there at macroexpand time 02:42:00 I'd personally use a hashtable 02:42:23 but that decision wouldn't leak out, and its expense would only be at compile-time 02:42:45 madnificent: so the package stuff won't be in effect unless it's loaded, and to make a package available, I need to use asdf, right? 02:42:51 yes, it could matter. It could make it a lot faster or slower. The bad thing with hash-tables is that I explicitly need to synchronize them (and there is no spec as to when to do that) 02:43:25 xgp: by standard, you're working in the cl-user package. So packages are always in effect, but you're in a fairly common environment if you don't specify it 02:43:33 xgp: if that answers your question :) 02:43:50 what sort of synchronization? I presume there's code that installs user-provided functions, then the next files that get loaded can use those 02:44:18 make-hash-table's :synchronized T (but not all implementations have that) 02:44:26 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 02:44:48 so you've got compile-time activity going on in different threads than what's configuring your library? 02:45:11 in any case, this is not going toward something new for me :) So I'm going to stop the argument here (unless you really want to continue for some reason) 02:45:13 thanks 02:45:40 oh, I didn't know we were arguing :) I'm just wondering how simple/complex the situation was 02:45:48 well, perhaps a bad wording :) 02:45:54 the situation is fairly simple 02:46:49 I want to have an environment for a css library I'm building. It should expand (id 'foo-bar) to "#fooBar" when it is in the position of selecting an object for the stylesheet 02:47:50 I want to allow users to add such selectors, as to make it possible to add special selectors (for instance (object my-obj)) could search for the classes and/or id's that object has 02:48:13 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:50:09 so is the (id 'foo-bar) in a data list, or part of a general executable lisp code body? 02:50:54 it is in a data list 02:52:02 madnificent: what about nonstandard packages? What I'm trying to say is that since loading lisp files of a package and using the package are separate processes, I need to use asdf to make the package available, right? 02:52:09 something like (css (id 'foo-bar) (width (px 50))) is likely something that will work 02:52:14 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:52:31 xgp: no, you use asdf to load packages, not to make them accessible 02:52:33 yeah, i've used nested macrolets to support data-as-DSL 02:52:51 at least when it's literal source code to be loaded, not runtime stuff 02:53:44 I could use the code the user specifies as data, it would loose the environment though, which is a bit sad 02:54:30 madnificent: ah I see. I wanted to say "use asdf to load up the lisp files and then use the packages in them" 02:54:47 if I'd add them at runtime, I could allow for the environment to be used though. And I can add compiler-macro-functions for the cases in which everything is known at compiletime 02:55:20 madnificent: or without asdf and other similiar mechnisms, what I need is load/require, right? 02:55:31 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-39-117.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:55:58 slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:02 if I'm understanding this right, and linking it to stuff I've done before, the css macro would read your tables at runtime to generate a custom macrolet scope to surround the '((id 'foo-bar....)) body 02:56:10 xgp: without asdf, you would likely use load. However, you must use load in the right order. The file which defines a package must be loaded before the files that use that package 02:56:34 Phoodus: that + compiler-macro-functions to speed the thing up a bit 02:56:37 ...read your set of available functions... 02:56:44 madnificent: ok thanks :) 02:56:53 xgp: you're welcome. Learning lisp? 02:56:55 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-78-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:57:10 madnificent: yeah, I started to use CL yesterday 02:57:26 xgp: cool! what is your background? 02:57:27 madnificent: yeah, we weren't bound by any sort of compile-time speed. Serving css-based pages, you've obviously got that requirement 02:57:43 xgp: have they advised books to you? or have you found your own? 02:58:29 Phoodus: if it's compiler-macrofied, it would probably compile it all at compiletime and serve a string. Only the special things would need to be extended (and I don't think they'll come around _that_ often either) 02:59:07 Phoodus: if I'd be nicer, I'd allow for it to write to a stream directly and remove all the overhead of copying the string. It shouldn't be slow per se 02:59:19 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 02:59:40 yeah, we've got a lot of copying & marshalling in our project that we're going to reevaluate soon 02:59:41 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:59:58 madnificent: I can write Emacs Lisp code, and I learned Scheme with SICP. Also, I've read PCL, but never try out writing something myself. Currently I'm on the way of practicing :) 03:00:31 madnificent: thanks for the offer, though. You're so nice :) 03:00:51 xgp: Common Lisp has the nicest people! We just don't show it very often 03:01:34 The CL people are the chosen ones 03:01:51 (chosen by whom?) 03:02:13 (Phoodus: me and some gods) 03:02:29 ah 03:03:24 Phoodus: so, what would you do? a simple list? or a hash-table? In the worst case, it should look it up at runtime... But then I'd need to have some way to know whether or not I need to ensure the hashtable is synchronized (adding :synchronized T will make ECL angry for instance) 03:04:11 if you use a list you have to manually synchronize too, right? 03:04:22 but using a list will quickly become a resource hog... unless I expand the function at compiletime (which is a possibility too, but then they can still use eval in parallel which could become an issue too) 03:04:45 yes, for the insertions, but I'd take my guess on the fact that the adding of new features is so uncommon that I can ignore that 03:05:18 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:20 well, if you have an alist of symbol to lambda, then you can directly convert that into a macrolet which converts that symbol into passing its params to the lambda 03:05:24 I really don't expect additions to be made to that system at runtime. I assume all needed functions will be known at compiletime 03:05:38 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:05:48 yes, but it'd be a longer lookup when users use eval at runtime 03:05:53 would it? 03:05:59 is iterating an alist slower than maphash? 03:06:09 why would I need to use maphash? 03:06:22 I'd need to use getf or assoc versus gethash 03:06:23 to generate your scoped macrolets 03:06:40 um 03:06:47 *Phoodus* scribbles some stuff for lisppaste 03:06:50 I only need to execute the lambda of the requested symbol 03:09:03 marioxcc [~user@200.56.153.96] has joined #lisp 03:09:24 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:33 Phoodus pasted "css" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97539 03:10:33 (make-string-output-stream :element-type :utf-8) ==> error :UTF-8 is not a subtype of CHARACTER 03:10:40 Phoodus: yes, the thing is what if they decide to use eval? 03:10:57 inside the body? the macrolets should still apply right? 03:11:29 Phoodus: yes, but then it would need to look up what is for instance, and that could make it slow if it needs to find it in a list, versus a hash-table 03:11:32 the tags are just copied from the css call's &body 03:11:52 right, this would do the lookup once at the css call's macroexpand time 03:11:59 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 03:12:05 if it needs to be done more often then that, this wouldn't solve it 03:12:45 Phoodus: this is a nice solution for the compilermacro-function though :) 03:13:04 Phoodus: I'll just think about it a little bit and write the evil 03:13:06 it'll work out 03:13:07 thanks 03:13:27 yep, one of those things that just takes beating it against random use cases 03:13:28 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:34 Phoodus: (the problem was how to find the , not how to replace it :)) 03:13:38 LoL 03:13:41 Phoodus: TRUE! 03:14:41 for me, it'd iterate the a-list of (symbol . lambda) which defines your current set of custom functions, creating a macrolet entry for each one 03:15:23 (defmacro css (&body body) `(macrolet (,@(mapcar ... 03:20:36 of course, when we were getting 4 layers of nested macrolets that generate each other, SBCL started taking minutes to compile a single file :-P 03:21:11 breaking out to function calls as opposed to having everything inline did fix that though 03:21:21 it just choked the optimization analysis stuff 03:22:07 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:24 Phoodus: I'm still in doubt, but I think I'm going to go for the anonymous functions :) 03:24:58 it's something I haven't done before and it isn't ineficient. It does clutter the namespace though :( 03:25:04 right, I'm not familiar enough for at which point in the runtime you need your lookups to happen to say this is waht you need. However, it worked great for us 03:25:30 I'll notice once I'm using it 03:33:45 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:56 -!- snarfel [~mbenson@host-225-191-230-24.midco.net] has left #lisp 03:38:41 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@user-0c2h0f1.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 03:42:24 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 03:44:02 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:40 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 03:51:46 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.56.153.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:47 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:56:35 R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:59:56 Hello. I'm just about to learn Lisp, and am deciding whether to learn Common Lisp or Scheme. I already know C++ and Python and assorted other languages, but I think that learning Lisp would give me a better understanding of the fundamentals of programming. I need a version of Lisp that is highly opensource compatible. I would also like it if the variant I choose were to take little time to learn. Based on this, should I choose Common L 03:59:56 isp or Scheme? 04:00:39 longkid [~longkid@113.161.70.106] has joined #lisp 04:01:03 R3cur51v3: lisp doesn't take little time to learn 04:01:28 R3cur51v3: Common Lisp is the broader one, containing more concepts, whereas Scheme is a tad smaller 04:01:42 Common Lisp is clearly the superior lisp, as this channel talks about Common Lisp :) 04:01:59 So would you say that Common Lisp has deeper theoretical functionality? 04:02:05 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:02:58 As in, I have heard that Lisp features some very interesting design concepts from a computer-science perspective. It is for these interesting concepts that I am interested in Lisp. Would you say that Common Lisp features more of these concepts, or implements them more deeply? 04:03:14 R3cur51v3: to my understanding of the matter, yes. I haven't gotten round to learning Scheme though. If you lurk around a bit, someone will give you a better answer. 04:03:26 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-49-76.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:03:44 OK, thanks 04:03:57 What does "theoretical functionality" mean? 04:04:03 you're most welcome :) 04:04:30 Theoretically they're both equivalent in terms of what algorithms you can implement in them. 04:04:34 Zhivago: he means things like the separation between the namespace of functions and variables, or the idea of macros 04:04:42 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.212.226] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:04:56 Ah, irrelevant crap and stuff that scheme does. 04:05:00 I mean that Lisp has interesting features such as the code-as-data idea. 04:05:10 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 04:05:10 CL has a lot of useful junk bolted on. 04:05:40 So is Common Lisp more of a practical language than Scheme? 04:05:42 Both scheme and CL are lisps -- scheme has less junk built in. 04:05:47 hello 04:05:57 You keep on asking questions that can only be answered in terms of propaganda. 04:06:00 hello ost 04:06:02 Zhivago, OK thanks, I think Scheme is what I'm looking for 04:06:12 Zhivago I though scheme was more the bolt on junk and CL the built in junk 04:06:17 thought* 04:06:17 Why? What problem are you trying to solve? 04:06:34 marioxcc [~user@200.56.153.96] has joined #lisp 04:06:47 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.56.153.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:13 Zhivago, I'm interested in learning the "idea behind Lisp" without learning much cruft in the process. 04:07:35 Scheme sounds somewhat minimalist, so I think that will serve the purpose better. 04:07:48 lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 04:07:56 Recursive: Sounds good. 04:08:15 beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-49-76.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:08:22 Good morning! 04:08:59 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:09:19 beach: hello 04:10:09 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:18 longkid: Did you solve your problem yesterday? 04:10:19 R3cur51v3: Just about any language is going to take time to learn properly so I don't think you have much to gain by looking for which lisp has less 'cruft' to learn 04:10:29 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:56 beach: ah the problem about compile packages.lisp 04:11:19 For his stated purpose scheme is a good choice. 04:11:29 beach: I've just met Tung. He said that I have to install McClim to compile successfully 04:11:37 Unless you want to recommend maclisp or lisp1.5 or something :) 04:11:41 Possibly, I was only mildly paying attention, hehe 04:11:42 What is the preferred Scheme implementation for Linux? 04:12:10 I'm thinking it's the MIT one, but for some reason it's not available in the Fedora repo. 04:12:11 mzscheme is probably the friendliest suite. 04:12:13 *cough* #scheme 04:13:00 beach: However, I just need to build my algorithm file. So I'll try another way. Tung helped me solve that problem. 04:15:12 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:15:22 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:19:29 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:19:53 *fusss* needs feedback on API design http://paste.lisp.org/display/97532 04:21:08 cl-scum is now a functional soap library; converts a wsdl to an object, invokes remote methods, marshalls between xml and lisp objects, and is fairly small. except i am unsure about the interface 04:23:58 -!- longkid [~longkid@113.161.70.106] has left #lisp 04:24:33 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.209] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:28 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host86-138-194-163.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:27:26 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 04:29:01 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 04:29:19 -!- xinming [~hyy@125.109.255.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:31:23 xinming [~hyy@125.109.248.32] has joined #lisp 04:31:30 konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has joined #lisp 04:31:36 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@dsl-220-235-119-86.sa.westnet.com.au] has quit [Quit:  UniCode shall rein forever! ] 04:32:06 good morning beach 04:34:10 fusss: is themethod name and the server ever optional in a soap call? 04:34:41 -!- xinming [~hyy@125.109.248.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:35:51 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 04:36:00 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-glenocceobhapfag] has joined #lisp 04:36:37 Anyone using CommonQt on Mac? 04:37:19 -!- maden [~maden@modemcable136.252-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:38:17 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:39:59 xinming [~hyy@125.109.251.88] has joined #lisp 04:40:33 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 04:41:02 madnificent: the method name could be abstracted in some manner, but the service object is the value of a parsed wsdl or a path to a wsdl to be parsed 04:41:13 the service provides evaluation context to the soap-call 04:41:38 we can standardize on a special variable, say, *service* to be bound by the caller 04:42:15 perhaps even a WITH-WSDL macro, but then you will have two nested macro; (with-wsdl (path) (with-soap (service args ..))) 04:43:54 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 04:44:13 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:50 felideon [~felideon@adsl-156-176-66.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:10 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-200-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:20 fusss: it looks quite decent for something that's unpleasant (imho). I generally dislike the use of strings for function names. Having normal accessors on the received object would be nice too (but it may be non-trivial and/or impossible) 04:49:06 it's not just case sensitivity, but also the issue of xml namespaces 04:49:13 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-177-200-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:49:40 fusss: and the fact that names may overlap with other names defined in the same package 04:50:23 fusss: it is a pita, but it would be nice if there would be something allowing for a more transparent approach. Perhaps with a manual linking of symbols to strings? 04:51:26 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:52:00 fusss: overall, it looks nice to me. I was just throwing in the things I'd like to see gone. Doesn't mean it is bad in any sense 04:52:09 nunb [~nundan@59.178.197.29] has joined #lisp 04:52:37 vng [~user@123.20.73.166] has joined #lisp 04:53:02 Good morning! 04:55:49 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:57:02 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:57:03 -!- R3cur51v3 [~Recursive@173-29-151-107.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 04:57:52 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 04:58:34 moin vng 04:59:53 hello vng 05:01:00 hello madnificent, beach 05:02:24 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:32 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 05:05:03 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 05:11:18 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:12:18 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 05:14:01 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:17:13 (defmacro with-foo (&optional (callback #'my-callback)) (let ((cb (gensym))) `(let ((,cb ,callback)) .. (form-1 (form-2 (cb "hello")))))) 05:18:07 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 05:18:46 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:18:59 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:19:07 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 05:20:59 sorry about that last line; i solve my problem before i finished asking 05:22:13 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:23:53 -!- vng [~user@123.20.73.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:25:08 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-252-170-201.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:15 balooga [~00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:33 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 05:30:16 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-198-111.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:31:17 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:31:25 ASau` [~user@77.246.231.122] has joined #lisp 05:33:23 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 05:41:34 Guest34616 [gary@2002:daae:1481::daae:1481] has joined #lisp 05:43:23 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-157437.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 05:44:27 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:51:25 -!- Guest34616 [gary@2002:daae:1481::daae:1481] has left #lisp 05:54:25 vng [~user@123.20.117.175] has joined #lisp 05:54:38 So did y'all agree that #= and ## could be implemented by storing an "unbound" object in the slot, and fixing it up when an attempt is made to access the slot? 05:55:04 I mean, you still have to check for unbound slots, so this test would be "free". 05:55:26 In addition, it is more general, because it will work in all circumstances. 05:55:44 Of course, it isn't portable, but then neither is the method SBCL uses. 05:57:22 05:57:53 05:58:08 Ogedei [~user@e178193073.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:59:06 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 06:04:33 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has joined #lisp 06:05:37 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:06:49 xb 06:09:58 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:15:17 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:34 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:18:29 reprore [~reprore@p4b1c8a.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:19:56 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:21:45 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:23:45 mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:23:45 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:28:25 -!- kwertii 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joined #lisp 07:15:17 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15:51 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 07:17:01 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:17:02 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:17:13 schme [~marcus@c83-254-196-101.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:17:14 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-196-101.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 07:17:14 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 07:18:11 good morning, lispland 07:18:51 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:25:27 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:26:17 -!- bgs000 [57o9@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Free shells at 57o9.org] 07:28:27 bgs000 [57o9@57o9.org] has joined #lisp 07:29:30 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 07:30:33 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:30:38 beach: you don't have to test for unbound slots on structures; also, there's no guarantee that your unbound object fits any type restrictions for your slot 07:31:30 and finally, I don't think it works in situations like #1=S(FOO :A (#1#)) 07:32:06 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 07:32:24 (the slot access doesn't return the "unbound" object, and then looking at the slot value's contents loses the referenced object 07:32:50 xan_ [~xan@219.6.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 07:34:28 orphee [~orphee@xdsl-89-0-181-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:41:16 -!- balooga [~00u4440@adsl-76-194-233-139.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:42:23 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:43:25 Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:45:37 merl15_ [~merl@188-22-24-44.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 07:49:15 -!- fe[nl]ix 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[~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:12 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 08:27:15 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-141-157-238-16.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:28:05 -!- _8david` [~user@port-92-195-107-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:28 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:29:30 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:33:49 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:19 ost` [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 08:35:19 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:36:13 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-141-157-238-16.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:44 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-26-247-120.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:36:50 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 08:37:23 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:32 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-141-157-238-16.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:39:46 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-141-157-238-16.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:55 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:42:17 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:43:24 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:47:18 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:44 Krystof: Intresting. While I agree with the argument about type restriction, it seems to me we have that problem no matter what solution is chosen. 08:51:02 Krystof: But yes, it won't work if the unbound object is stored in a cons cell, unless one does the check in car/cdr as well. 08:51:27 Krystof: That can be done of course. 08:52:41 Krystof: But I don't understand what you mean by "the slot access doesn't return the "unbound" object, and then looking at the slot value's contents loses the referenced object". 08:56:30 Aren't you reinventing forwarding pointers there? 08:58:23 I am considering the cost of implementing them on stock hardware, yes. 08:59:39 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59:47 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 09:00:06 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-177-200-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:06 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:00:22 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 09:01:37 It wouldn't surprise me if it would be essentially free with one of the conditionally-skip-the-next-instruction instructions. 09:04:34 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-177-200-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:07:21 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:14:17 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-184-195.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:15:12 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:15:38 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:16:54 lichtblau [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:26:42 freiksenet1 [~freiksene@193.166.11.250] has joined #lisp 09:27:06 Hello 09:27:46 Could you tell me what is wrong with (drakma:http-request "http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2428326486224808744/posts/default") ? Instead of XML I get some array full of numbers :/ 09:28:55 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:29:22 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:32:53 fisxoj [~fisxoj@80.153.54.206] has joined #lisp 09:35:20 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.223.68] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:36:46 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:37:33 <_3b> mrSpec: (push '("application" . "atom+xml") drakma:*text-content-types*) ? 09:37:45 wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:38:08 _3b: yeah! thanks :) 09:39:12 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 09:39:49 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:40:10 lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 09:44:27 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A821.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:15 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 09:50:30 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:56:25 Threads are enabled by default in SBCL binary distributions for Linux/x86 nowadays, right? From what release? 09:58:22 spiaggia: three releases ago 09:58:23 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:58:30 -!- ost` is now known as ost 09:59:35 tcr, i have some issues with sb-concurrency while building sbcl 1.0.37.44 on a xen VPS. SB-CONCURRENCY-TEST::TEST-MAILBOX-PRODUCERS-CONSUMERS test is very slow and prints timeouts and missed receivers... 09:59:53 tcr, Linux dwim.hu 2.6.18.8.xs5.5.0.13.442 #1 SMP Wed Nov 11 12:01:55 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux 10:00:40 i suspect that it's kernel related, as i've been once googling and read about several somewhat related issues... 10:01:25 Axius [~hi@92.82.78.84] has joined #lisp 10:01:54 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.78.84] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:01:57 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-133-224.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:14 hey mcclim people. What was the idea now... ~/.clim/app for configs ? 10:03:37 schme: No, something like ~/.config/clim/app/ 10:04:07 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:04:49 *attila_lendvai* is afk 10:05:17 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:11:34 -!- lukjad007 is now known as lukjad86 10:11:39 -!- billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:223:54ff:fe7c:a524] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:12:22 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:55 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 10:14:10 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-22-192.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:15:00 spiaggia: woer. 10:15:17 spiaggia: Oh it is that XDG or whatnot thing. ya. thanks 10:16:17 Right! 10:17:21 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:22 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 10:18:52 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:10 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 10:19:18 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:23:57 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:24:11 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 10:30:02 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:33:38 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:33:58 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:17 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:34:31 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:47 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 10:39:00 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:39:42 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 10:40:27 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:43:30 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:55 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:48:01 -!- vng [~user@123.20.117.175] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:50:30 debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:00:19 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-22-192.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:00:22 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:00:40 pavelludiq1 [~5b8bc32b@gateway/web/freenode/x-uxmozchifyozdgqs] has joined #lisp 11:05:58 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-22-192.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:09:12 bytecolor [~user@70.133.64.87] has joined #lisp 11:09:53 Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.68.51] has joined #lisp 11:12:23 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-129.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:15:21 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:16:10 ClaudiaS [~claudia@98.193.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:16:20 (zerop .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001) => nil 11:16:32 that's some serious precision 11:17:15 hy guys 11:17:54 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-129.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:19:35 pers`` [~user@p5DC733F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:35 -!- reprore [~reprore@p4b1c8a.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:23:01 -!- pers` [~user@p5DC73430.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:24:24 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667bba-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:25:27 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:43 nunb [~nundan@59.178.192.213] has joined #lisp 11:28:11 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-22-192.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:28:27 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 11:31:07 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f667bba-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 11:32:44 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-22-192.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:32:45 hello ClaudiaS 11:33:59 :-) --- Mismatched Parenthesis --> I love emacs! 11:35:07 carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.206] has joined #lisp 11:36:38 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:39:58 ClaudiaS: sometimes it does match with someone's :-( 11:40:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:40:37 -!- pers`` [~user@p5DC733F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 11:41:11 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:223:54ff:fe7c:a524] has joined #lisp 11:41:16 ost: hehe.. that could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship... 11:41:43 ost: and with antifuchs' (: 11:42:26 hi there (: 11:42:34 hey antifuchs! 11:42:43 hi 11:42:45 hello 11:43:00 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 11:43:19 hey, would anyone like to see my lispy spreadsheet thing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAUWw61urNM 11:43:24 with voiceover :) 11:43:39 this software is designed as an adjunct to emacs (not a replacement) 11:45:12 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:05 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.6] has joined #lisp 11:46:10 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:27 ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has joined #lisp 11:49:08 dto: ... AWESOME 11:49:51 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-129.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:49:59 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:50:17 -!- xgp [~zhujun@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:50:23 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51:27 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:53:57 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:56:59 p_l: :) 11:57:00 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 11:58:40 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.6] has joined #lisp 12:00:39 dto: given that I was lately stumped with how different CLIM was when I needed to write a fast GUI, seeing XIOMACS was nice :) 12:01:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 12:02:21 dto: sweet 12:02:42 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:18 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:03:27 antifuchs: will cxml-rpc get a homepage at some point, or does it have a proper homepage that I only missed? 12:03:29 lichtblau, memo from p_l: any idea how to combine CommonQT code with custom C++ code (to reduce the amount of SMOKE calls?) 12:03:37 lichtblau: it doesn't, yet 12:03:44 hmm... that's an old memo 12:03:56 but I've been thinking about redesigning my site to list a couple of my projects 12:03:57 *p_l* now knows of the new smokegenerator 12:04:57 lichtblau: excellent that you're using cxml-rpc, by the way 12:05:27 hope everything works for you (: 12:05:46 hmmm. I could actually put cxml-rpc up on github along with my other projects 12:07:09 *p_l* long wanted cxml-rpc because loading two different XML libs wasn't a fun idea. 12:09:26 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 12:11:18 p_l: you didn't know about it ? 12:11:51 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:13:23 fe[nl]ix: nope 12:13:40 it only shows how under-advertised lisp libraries are :/ 12:13:52 antifuchs: you must sack your PR department 12:14:15 indeed 12:14:36 antifuchs: Jan is using it to send faxes over sipgate. Seems to work well. 12:14:37 I have always been a fan of diy brain surgery (: 12:14:43 lichtblau: awesome. 12:16:21 Except that I had to spend a day upgrading from that zombie cxml from the year 2003 we were using. 12:17:24 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:19:48 *p_l* is doing some preparatory work regarding PR for all lisp libs 12:20:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:50 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:22:23 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 12:23:51 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:24:13 p_l: a blog series along the lines of "the CL library of the day" ? 12:24:58 fe[nl]ix: no, a big pre-packaged set of libraries with easy upgrade path and nice (and trendy) update info, including announcements on twitter etc. 12:25:25 also been looking at making SBCL page easier to find, maybe the same for cl-user.net and common-lisp.net 12:25:41 the fact that GCL is the first entry for "common lisp linux" is IMHO bad 12:25:45 isn't that what libCL is ? 12:26:11 tass [~user@81-224-161-54-no110.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:19 p_l: http://libcl.com/ 12:31:49 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:31:55 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:53 -!- freiksenet1 [~freiksene@193.166.11.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:37:14 davertron [~Dave@74-92-46-229-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:14 fe[nl]ix: libcl doesn't cover everything I want to do, but I plan to support it as well 12:39:27 for me, GCL is not the first 12:39:58 ost: lucky you 12:40:04 p_l: then contribute to libcl rather than starting yet another project 12:40:14 but it was yesterday 12:41:29 fe[nl]ix: libcl doesn't really do what I want to do - I *might* incorporate libcl for the packaging, though 12:41:52 what do you want to do exactly ? 12:43:35 yentu [~yentu@salle201.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 12:43:54 hello 12:43:56 bonjour 12:43:58 a) infrastructure for packaging with some extra bling for better visibility - the packages might come from libcl, but I was leaning more towards something like hackage/lispy/asdf-install. Doesn't mean it has to be incompatible. b) changes to some sites (CLiki, sbcl.org etc) to improve "findability". 12:44:01 are there any lisp user here ? 12:44:07 il y a des utilisateurs de lisp ici ? 12:44:08 yentu: only :-) 12:44:09 yentu: I am a lisp User. 12:44:17 ah, cool :) 12:44:24 yentu: Auf Englische dans le channel du internationale 12:44:27 bitte, svp 12:44:32 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:44:37 was ? 12:44:40 sur la tete 12:44:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:02 ost: http://plasek.rootnode.net/screenshots/2010-04-09_13:40_1280x800.png <--- that's how a recent search looks for me... 12:45:04 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:39 yentu: are you a student of Robert Strandh ? 12:45:49 p_l: my first is "Linux Common Lisp Quickstart HOWTO « Unyaaa or just a bunch of ..." 12:45:55 p_l: GCL is second 12:46:05 yes, from Bordeaux I 12:46:05 p_l: i get a similar result with an "incognito" browser. 12:46:33 ost: o_O 12:47:04 ok, I did add an extra link to SBCL.org yesterday on that page, but I didn't expect such change... 12:47:38 i have some troubles using keystroke shortcuts 12:48:13 spiaggia: ping 12:49:05 yentu: what kind of troubles ? 12:49:22 hmm, i see a sponsored link to SBCL... 12:49:37 who is sponsoring? 12:49:44 we tried to add shortcuts into our program, using mcclim table 12:49:45 nikodemus, IIRC 12:50:16 (clim:add-keystroke-to-command-table 12:50:42 'myprogram '(:l :control) :command '(com-myfunction)) 12:50:57 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:50:58 nothing happended 12:51:01 minion: tell yentu about lisppaste 12:51:01 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 12:51:02 happened 12:51:22 ok thanks 12:53:46 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:53:53 yentu pasted "Keystroke" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97563 12:56:03 if i add a text menu, i can click on it, and it works 12:56:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:56:16 but using keystroke, no 12:56:48 afa [~afa@131.152.178.51] has joined #lisp 12:57:19 yentu: I think you'll have to wait until Robert returns 12:57:45 his nickname is spiaggia or beach usually 12:57:52 okok 12:58:48 any suggestions what might be wrong with the line "paren-psos get_git http://common-lisp.net/project/suave/git/paren-psos/.git" in my clbuild my-projects file? 12:59:18 can you clone that url ? 12:59:31 yep 13:01:27 see http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/suave/paren-psos.git;a=summary 13:01:31 try the git:// url 13:02:46 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:04:34 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 13:05:38 konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has joined #lisp 13:05:45 ost: btw, "Unyaaa" is mine ^^; 13:07:46 how in the wild wild world of sports do you use single or double floats exclusively? I'm having a hell of a time getting 'value is not single-float' 'value is not double-float' 13:08:39 do I have to use coerce all over the place or what? 13:08:53 clhs *read-default-float-format* 13:08:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_def.htm 13:09:16 fe[nl]ix: hmm. it still just says "warning: no dependencies for paren-pos found\ Error: cannot download unknown project paren-pos" 13:09:33 psos != pos 13:10:11 oh yeah. but psos doesn't work also 13:10:48 it falls over both with "record-dependencies" and "install paren-psos" 13:10:51 "doesn't work" isn't an error message, nor a meaningful support request let alone bug report 13:11:20 lichtblau: error message is "warning: no dependencies for paren-psos found\ Error: cannot download unknown project paren-psos" 13:11:40 -!- debiandebian [~chatzilla@ntszok008047.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 13:12:33 fe[nl]ix: I'm here. 13:12:52 the warning isn't an error. The error means that it can't find a line starting with that name. Review your assumptions as the what you're got in that file? 13:13:07 spiaggia: yentu was looking for you 13:13:14 fe[nl]ix: Thanks! 13:13:24 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 13:14:28 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:14:57 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:15:52 -!- ost [~user@217.198.9.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:49 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.206] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 13:18:47 so i have a line in my my-projects file which contains "paren-psos get_git git://common-lisp.net/projects/suave/paren-psos.git" 13:19:15 if i remove that line, record-dependencies works fine 13:19:29 but otherwise i get the above message 13:21:27 ah, is that actually a tab there as pasted? you need to use spaces, not tabs 13:26:07 omg 13:26:23 sorry, that was a bit chavvy 13:29:00 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:29:18 yeah, sorry, I hadn't spotted that before because the line happened to wrap there for me 13:32:36 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:32:55 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:15 DamienCassou [~cassou@tsuichoi.bordeaux.inria.fr] has joined #lisp 13:33:40 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:34:18 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 13:34:57 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-91-178.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:35:25 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 13:36:53 G'morning all. 13:38:59 hi nyef 13:39:03 morn. 13:40:06 -!- yentu [~yentu@salle201.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Quit: The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. -- William Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice] 13:44:16 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:44:33 rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-69-221-169-136.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:48 beach: unfortunately, we only have conditional reg-reg moves on x86oids. 13:44:59 -!- rrice1 [~rrice@adsl-69-221-169-136.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:45:10 rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-221-169-136.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:58 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:46:15 -!- afa [~afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [Quit: afa] 13:48:12 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:49 (and they're really not that hot... when the condition is nicely predictable, it's often faster to use a conditional jump) 13:48:57 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757f19.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:12 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:50:16 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:58 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:53:08 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:56:01 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:38 pkhuong: What version of Linux do you develop on? 13:57:04 hi 13:57:55 is there anyone knowing how to set keystrokes on mcclim? 13:58:01 tmh: 2.6.32. 13:58:53 *Xach* has deja vu 13:59:06 pkhuong: Ok, I meant which distribution. 13:59:22 debian testing with a tiny bit of unstable. 13:59:40 Xach: Which distribution do you use? 13:59:41 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:59:44 pkhuong: Thanks 13:59:51 tmh: debian and ubuntu 14:00:01 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:12 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:01 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 14:02:15 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:03:00 For various reasons, I'm migrating to Windows 7, but want to run Linux in a VirtualBox and try to decide which one to install. I also want to help with the Windows port of SBCL, although once on Windows I'll do most of my development in LispWorks. 14:05:02 tmh: most of my students and I are running ubuntu. sbcl/slime/emacs are easy to install and works like a charm (we use clbuild to install slime and various projects) 14:07:21 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:07:55 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:08:32 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 14:11:34 nyef: What distribution of Linux do you use. 14:12:19 *p_l* sees forcing clbuild been good... 14:15:29 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:16:30 -!- TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:25 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7F6C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:21:12 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:23:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:27:52 tmh: I used to use gentoo, but these days I mostly run debian. 14:27:59 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:28:33 (I say mostly. Technically two of the machine I run have ubuntu, one still has gentoo, and the two more recent ones have debian.) 14:28:41 nyef: I find it interesting that debian is so popular. 14:29:21 Debian has its problems, but I thus far find it easier to deal with than gentoo. 14:32:36 while i'm not found of the sysv-ness init of it, debian/ubuntu do have pretty darn excellent package management. it makes it so easy to install and just use the apps. 14:33:32 My life has improved a lot since I learned how to make my own packages and run my own local repo for them. Incremental pain of new server setup is shrinking. 14:34:06 i've probably spent weeks compiling and fixing broken package installation with netbsd/pkgsrc and freebsd/ports, heh. debian is really cool that way. 14:35:06 hypno: Let me guess, you updated the freebsd/ports and then didn't update the installed ports and tried to install a new port? 14:35:29 I have sysadmins for fbsd. 14:36:10 Heh, FreeBSD is my favorite OS and I haven't used it in a couple years. Consulting obligations to my clients have dragged me kicking and screaming to Windows. 14:36:24 Damn you, Bill Gates. 14:37:10 tmh: Heh. I just run windows under virtualbox for that. 14:37:31 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-glenocceobhapfag] has left #lisp 14:37:36 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:38:02 nyef: I tried that and finally decided that I needed to do the opposite. 14:39:37 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:39:49 tmh: heh, no. i've been an avid bsd users/admin for close to a decade. i was more reflecting on my life experience with bsd compared to debian. 14:40:32 Here is a little lesson in why *not* to do imperative programming using a LIET* statement. You can't insert break forms between bindings. Note To Self : Stop hacking kludges and do it correctly. 14:40:32 tmh: When every gig seems to require a different software load-out, it's easier to have them in VMs. 14:40:47 s/LIET*/LET*/ 14:40:54 Xach: Life improvement is masturbation. Now, life destruction.... 14:41:53 tmh: sure you can, just bind it to (progn (break) (foo)) 14:42:00 tmh: you can! 14:42:14 Tell me more. 14:42:33 tcr: or (prog1 (foo) (break)) 14:42:42 Oh, I get it. 14:43:15 Still, my original statement stands. This is a case where I've really abused the LET* form. 14:43:30 fe[nl]ix: depends on the side-effects of FOO :-) 14:43:36 -!- pavelludiq1 [~5b8bc32b@gateway/web/freenode/x-uxmozchifyozdgqs] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:45:34 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.122] has quit [Quit: off] 14:46:37 hypno: The key to painlessly using FBSD ports is to understand that everytime you update the ports tree, you have to update the installed ports and the best utility I found for that was portmaster. 14:47:00 Guthur [~Michael@host86-138-194-163.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:21 ports tree and installed ports have to be kept synchronized. 14:48:17 Ah, thank you lisp gurus, (progn (break) (foo)) is my new friend. 14:48:24 tmh: wasn't portmaster declared obsolete ? 14:48:27 tmh: Going back a bit, one of the guys I worked with at one point ran windows on his work machine, and then had a bunch of windows VMs in it for various projects. Virtualization just makes too much sense. 14:49:32 fe[nl]ix: Perhaps, I haven't used FBSD in a while. But, that would be a bummer, because when I left that was my upgrade tool of choice. The other one I tried was portmanager, I think. 14:49:41 nyef: I would definitely agree with that 14:50:58 nyef: My biggest problem with virtualization, though, is that I have to run analyses that consume all of my RAM and can't afford to have even 1 VM open while they are running. I have 16G of RAM and will be doubling it sometime this summer. 14:51:06 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Boot me gently] 14:52:01 tmh: I'm using portsnap+portupgrade nowadays 14:52:15 fe[nl]ix: portmaster isn't marked deprecated on freshports and seems to be active. 14:52:25 -!- ClaudiaS [~claudia@98.193.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:31 lnostdal [~lnostdal@200.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:46 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.222] has joined #lisp 14:53:00 -!- DamienCassou [~cassou@tsuichoi.bordeaux.inria.fr] has left #lisp 14:53:11 tmh: CFD? 14:53:29 p_l: FEA 14:53:32 was it you that worked on something to deal with ANSYS datafiles? 14:53:38 Yes 14:53:46 Making some progress as well. 14:53:56 ah, only FEA, so not the "ultimate eater of computer resources" 14:54:08 *p_l* recalls CFD stuff done on K6-2 200MHz 14:54:23 p_l: heh, not yet, but trust me, we're working on giving CFD a run for the money. 14:55:15 tmh: FEA? 14:55:22 tmh: (un)fortunately modern CFD upped the scale and I do recall hearing something about needing to wait for nanotech massively-parallel machines to quench its hunger for computing 14:55:26 hypno: Finite Element Analysis. 14:56:14 benny [~benny@i577A8E55.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:03 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:03 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:10 p_l: The biggest issue with CFD, granted I'm not an expert, but anyway, the biggest issue is capturing the shear and vorticity at all scales. So basically, we're talking ridiculously fine grids. It's the multi-scale that kills, aside from other issues like time dependent analyses. 14:58:34 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-39-117.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:58:39 Sometimes I think we should look for other approaches, anyway. Instead of assuming continuity, we should model individual molecules. :-) 14:58:53 Basically right. time dependent solutions (with very small time steps) are a bitch to solve, and meshes require millions of cells. 14:59:22 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:00:12 tmh: that's what they want with nanotech 15:00:35 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:51 also, we've got some interesting uses for CFD cases where you don't have precise data on the flow. Mainly military uses, unfortunately. 15:01:21 no precise data? 15:01:44 you mean like direct simulation or? 15:03:26 hypno: Data taken from radar 15:03:45 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-70-37.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:03:52 p_l: oh, heh. sounds cool. do you work with FD? 15:03:52 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:03:52 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:03:53 you can guess how precise radar data of pressure differences is. 15:04:12 hypno: no, but my father does (well, did - not for a long time, now) 15:04:21 however, I still get some news from time to time 15:04:34 bah shadowing * has the unwanted consequences of also shadowing the REPL variable * 15:04:42 hypno: Some of it also intersects with stuff I research for creative fiction 15:04:45 *writing 15:04:56 ah... i do my master in fluid dynamics. lovely subject. :D 15:04:59 tcr: symbol macro (: 15:05:14 good one 15:05:29 tcr: Hah, I've played around with abusing *, ** and ***. I think there is a lot of room for mischief, there. 15:05:44 hypno: I might take it later, I think. After I finish my current degree - I want to get on with nanotech a little, though mostly from applied side. 15:06:44 (my current one is CS) 15:08:04 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 15:08:36 so much to do, so little time... 15:08:45 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:26 Russel-Athletic [~engelzz@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined #lisp 15:10:01 splittist [~513e5308@gateway/web/freenode/x-eijernfatvqgxnwt] has joined #lisp 15:10:04 morning 15:10:13 i have a string problem with my lisp code: here is the function http://pastebin.com/1DStFbjQ and here the error http://pastebin.com/sPq8RYLJ 15:10:21 p_l: spoken like a true student. :) 15:10:50 what is the problem? 15:11:03 Russel-Athletic: You're using regular expresssions, that's the problem. 15:11:06 ziggurat [~quassel@173.74.42.166] has joined #lisp 15:11:09 tcr, therep 15:11:18 sure 15:11:23 why is that a problem? 15:11:40 tcr, got a couple minutes to discuss a UI paradigm? 15:12:16 tcr, or perhaps later? 15:12:20 Russel-Athletic: Regular expressions are okay for quick commands in editors, but are too difficult to use for general parsing. 15:12:40 deepfire: Later is better. (I'm also not sure why you think I'd be an appropriate person to talk to about UI...) 15:12:41 minion: tell Russel-Athletic about meta-sexp 15:12:42 Russel-Athletic: direct your attention towards meta-sexp: meta-sexp is a META parser generator using LL(1) grammars with s-expressions. http://www.cliki.net/meta-sexp 15:12:51 tcr, got a couple minutes to discuss a UI paradigm? 15:13:04 oops\ 15:13:07 Russel-Athletic: That is what you'll want to use, a parser generator. 15:13:16 NX playing dirty tricks with me. 15:13:23 well thanks for the help but i really don't want to get into a new topic now, especially because the code worked previously 15:13:36 tcr, well, development UI 15:13:52 Well, sure. Let's say in an hour 15:14:03 tcr, thanks! 15:14:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:14:47 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:15:16 Lead a horse to water... 15:17:37 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:18:28 Soulman__ [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:04 Russel-Athletic: regexes are tricky 15:19:11 apparently the parse-integer is the problem but why? 15:19:34 i thought first will always be bound to the matched group (which is a string) 15:20:05 Russel-Athletic: yes, it's a bogus warning. 15:20:27 Russel-Athletic: it's part of how register-groups-bind expands, and how sbcl does type inferencing. but i'm not sure about more details. 15:20:31 Russel-Athletic: you're matching with dot, instead of number char class as well 15:21:13 (that's a warning regarding regexes) 15:21:45 Hah! regular expression error! Can I do the "I told you so" dance? 15:22:18 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-129.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:23:04 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:23:27 Sorry, *May* I do the "I told you so" dance? 15:23:34 tmh: That's not the issue here. 15:24:03 Damn 15:24:16 tmh, just wait.. 15:24:30 should a warning stop the compile process? 15:24:50 Ogedei: A callback seems sensible. That seems like it should be a per-connection value. 15:24:52 -!- wolgo [~noige@69.59.130.52] has left #lisp 15:26:06 ok... 15:26:12 the problem magically fixed itself 15:26:30 You just had to believe in yourself. 15:27:12 I have a problem. I fail to contain complexity explosion in my debugger. 15:27:33 merl15__ [~merl@188-22-169-204.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:27:48 Xach: listening already happens per-connection, no? if we have a simple interface in cl-postgres to register callbacks for notifications, postmodern can add a wrapper that combines the listening and the registering in a friendly API 15:29:56 Ogedei: right, i just mean that the callback is a property of a particular connection, not, say, a global hook of some sort. 15:30:37 -!- Stattrav is now known as puppyjith 15:30:45 Xach: yes, definitely tracked per-connection 15:30:49 -!- merl15_ [~merl@188-22-24-44.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:31:00 -!- puppyjith is now known as Stattrav 15:31:02 Russel-Athletic: always wrap the body using a WHEN to make SBCL stfu. In this case: (when first (push (parse-integer first) ...)) 15:32:14 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:32:21 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has quit [Quit: Well, the machine might have gone down. Brb after a reboot.] 15:32:23 Ogedei: I'll try to make a new patch today. 15:32:31 lichtblau: what's the expansion for r-g-bing like again? 15:32:34 milanj [~milan@109.92.211.75] has joined #lisp 15:32:54 *-bind 15:33:01 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:17 *deepfire* sits at work, unable to motivate himself to fix bugs in his code, because of this complexity explosion looming over.. 15:35:26 pkhuong: paraphrasing the code: (let (( (let ((start-index (aref ))) (if start-index (subseq ...) nil)))) ,@body) 15:35:41 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.233] has joined #lisp 15:36:21 essentially, AIUI, the user "knows" that if the regex matches at all, the group he's interested in must also be non-nil. But the compiler is prepared for some groups in the regex to be have matched and others not. 15:37:12 deepfire: I have an analogous issue. I'm pretty sure my code works, but I have a bug in the code to test it. 15:37:36 lichtblau: yeah. I'd like to see that become a style warning. 15:37:48 My motivation is just to let the test code bitrot and move on. 15:38:31 There should be a warning on the cif's derived type, but anything below should be downgraded to a style warning? 15:38:55 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:38:56 thanks lichtblau 15:39:17 -!- orphee [~orphee@xdsl-89-0-181-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.1.1] 15:40:50 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178193073.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:40:53 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:41:01 Part of the problem, as I see it, is that debuggers are hard to formalise. 15:41:24 deepfire: They are? 15:41:43 And I tried hard, attempting to make the goddamn thing generic. 15:42:05 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:42:32 nyef, the complexity of the API is approaching CLIM, if it is of any measure.. 15:43:27 I'm currently suspecting that the main reason that CLIM is complex is because they don't explain it right. 15:43:37 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-npyegqrdvtheelht] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:44:21 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:44:28 nyef, can you capture your perception of what's odd in their way of explanation? 15:45:54 I might try to extract some hints applicable to my situation.. 15:46:04 Well, first, it's presented as a stack of layers, when the dependencies are more like a DAG. 15:46:05 Because, damn it, I need them.. 15:46:15 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:46:33 I had this feeling about CLIM, yes.. 15:46:36 They don't explain the boundaries for various bits of functionality very well at all. 15:46:50 And it's the same in my case, to a certain degree. 15:47:20 If CLIM is complex, what's the payoff for learning the complexity? 15:47:44 you can make really cute pixel animation programs 15:47:50 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:48:00 They don't indicate which parts of the system are more internal connective interfaces than something you might want as an application programmer. 15:48:17 Oh, like Hello Kitty cute? 15:48:20 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:48:46 That last is a bit of a simplification. 15:48:54 tmh: i just tried to get you a link, but livejournal is flaking :( 15:49:15 There's no real role-based guide to which APIs to look at. 15:49:16 nyef, this all sounds like the whole area was under-explored 15:49:33 Under-explored or under-explained. 15:49:38 nyef, because this looks like fairly obvious feedback, to me 15:49:53 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:05 I mean they could have had people telling them this -> cycle of change 15:50:37 As of last night, for example, I've come to the conclusion that a UI component that I actually need is a CLIM-style output-stream frame + with-room-for-graphics. 15:50:56 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.249.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:51:08 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:51:41 nyef, this is all interesting 15:53:29 If I want to create a new sort of input field gadget I need a very different set of APIs than I would need if I want to add a menu bar to my application. 15:54:35 Lisp macros are *so* great for writing testing DSLs, and thus being able to concentrate on -what- you want to test, rather than on how to get everything in the test set up. 15:54:46 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:55:22 tcr: Amen. Discovered precisely that when I was building the win32 alien unwind tests for SBCL. 15:57:41 Hrm. I think I might need a chemistry book that isn't 40 years old. 15:58:29 re TYPE-WARNING and branches, what do you think of keeping the exact same code, but only issuing a TYPE-*STYLE*-WARNING if some of nodes that write to the checked lvar might be correct? 15:58:52 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 15:59:13 Example? 16:00:22 mm... doesn't always work, but at least it's sometimes better 16:00:25 2 sec, paste coming up 16:02:16 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-170-125.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:29 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:25 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-40-82-251-133-85.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:05:50 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:07:34 What do I need to build a 64-bit x86 version of SBCL on Windows 7? 16:08:22 tmh: a goat and a sharp knife 16:08:45 tmh: a lot of hacking. 16:09:33 pkhuong pasted "Downgrade TYPE-WARNINGs to TYPE-STYLE-WARNINGs when we might be wrong" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97570 16:09:40 /quit 16:09:41 Hmm, not what I wanted to hear. Anything special toolwise? 16:09:43 heh 16:09:45 -!- splittist [~513e5308@gateway/web/freenode/x-eijernfatvqgxnwt] has quit [] 16:09:46 Woops 16:10:13 Well, you'll need a C compiler, a running lisp (preferably SBCL)... 16:10:28 nyef: 32bit SBCL/ 16:10:29 ? 16:10:35 That would work. 16:10:52 Ok, I think MS offers some free C compiler with the Windows SDK. 16:10:53 I've been considering the possibility of cross-building from a 32-bit linux. 16:11:41 That said, I don't have a 64-bit windows system anywhere, so my ability to treat this as more than a thought experiment is presently limited. 16:12:16 Is not mingw64 fairly far along? 16:12:35 hjpark [~user@116.40.135.21] has joined #lisp 16:12:57 It apparently is, though I find myself curious as to how well it supports the windows exception handling model. 16:13:00 nyef: My laptop will be a 64-bit windows next week and my workstation will be sometime in June. I'll start looking into it next week. 16:13:42 wedgeV [~wedge@rrcs-24-105-134-152.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:01 *rsynnott* hadn't realised sbcl exists for x64 windows 16:14:09 rsynnott: It doesn't? 16:14:31 sorry, x86_64 16:15:07 SBCL exists for most non-windows x86_64 targets. 16:16:25 nyef:It seems to work for ccl 16:16:42 Yes, because ccl actually did the work for a windows x64 port. 16:16:49  if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, its a duck, right? So if this duck is not giving you the noise that you want, youve got to just punch that duck until it returns what you expect. <--- Monkey patching with more emphasis? 16:17:04 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk092248070132.a1.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:14 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:17:30 p_l: Heh. Or consider that the reason it isn't laying eggs might be that it's a -male- duck? 16:17:43 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:14 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:18:55 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has joined #lisp 16:19:05 -!- Russel-Athletic [~engelzz@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:24:21 nyef: it doesn't stop scientists from working on male-only births... even for humans 16:25:38 sounds.. unfun 16:26:05 tcr: don't worry, getting female-female pregnancies is easier, so they will first make men obsolete -_-; 16:26:07 p_l: I don't think anyone's seriously working on that right now; that's FAR beyond what current technology can do 16:26:17 female-only is actually doable now, though 16:26:17 lets be clear here... the ability to lay an egg is very different from the ability to gestate a fetus attached to your abdomenal wall! 16:26:29 indeed; men don't have the machinery 16:26:48 if looney tunes has taught me anything, it's that daffy duck can lay an egg if sufficiently threatened. 16:27:30 drewc: sure. Who said it has to be inside, though? And out-body pregnancy is useful for all parties anyway. 16:27:32 And women will never get rid of men, "because 2 minutes of heaven is better than 1 minute of heaven." 16:27:46 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-82-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:55 ok, back to on-topic, maybe? 16:28:05 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:28:11 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:44 p_l: lest anyone think it's #weirdbiology 16:28:50 One last diverion -> Flight of the Conchords http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGOohBytKTU 16:32:35 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 16:33:34 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:35:45 Chrome is a fat memory hog. 16:35:56 -!- lichtblau [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:37:28 Good evening! 16:38:08 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-240-179.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:38:51 evening Robert 16:39:56 deepfire: How are things? 16:40:46 beach, sad, losing my battle against exponential code complexity explosion within code I wrote. 16:41:06 Sorry to hear that! 16:41:35 balooga: does it reach the size of FF? I did notice it wasn't exactly easy on memory, but compared to what I did with FF I'm used to fat browsers... 16:42:35 And now I realise that the generalisation, which I intended to use for attaining simplification, actually caused this. 16:42:54 beach: Is there anyone working on www backend for CLIM? I'm not exactly interested in *CLIM* one, but after reading through Franz's user guide and McCLIM docs I had some ideas regarding some work that I'll have soon. 16:43:31 p_l: The SRI people wrote such a thing. 16:43:59 But I don't think anyone is working on something like that now. 16:44:02 beach: yeah, but it was long time ago, before JS, CSS3 and similar. 16:44:48 and output recording only fits me with WWW, actually (it's kind of my big stumbling block in CLIM) 16:44:50 Krystof seems to think that a modest amount of Javascript would necessary to create such a thing, whereas the SRI backend seems to generate bitmap images. 16:44:53 p_l: I have to restart Chrome/win32 every 3/4 days, because it slowly eats all available memory/swap. 16:45:12 -!- davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:12 balooga: ah, I don't use it for such long periods of time, and then only for one-two JS/Flash apps. 16:45:59 balooga: unfortunately, FF is no better, or at least didn't use to be (3.0 caused at least one OOM-Killer event that killed my work...) 16:47:32 *p_l* uses a heavily-customized FF since then, after a period of resetting FF every few hours. 16:48:34 beach: I was thinking of writing a slightly similar API to CLIM, but designed for Web 16:48:42 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.192.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:49 (I do have at least one webapp to write now) 16:49:15 nunb [~nundan@59.178.193.68] has joined #lisp 16:50:30 p_l: Sounds great! 16:50:45 the presentation API kind of fit right in for some of the stuff I wanted, and output recording clicks with me in that environment 16:51:38 *p_l* to his shame, never really "grokked" continuation-based web 16:52:09 Ogedei [~user@e178193073.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:04 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: clickoffgone] 16:54:13 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@rrcs-24-105-134-152.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 16:54:18 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:18 marioxcc [~user@200.92.185.232] has joined #lisp 16:56:19 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:27 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:36 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:58:54 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:14 -!- wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 17:02:41 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:12 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:07:05 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:07:09 prxq [~mommer@g227077124.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:17 hi 17:09:17 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 17:11:05 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:15:50 slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:01 marioxcc` [~user@200.92.185.232] has joined #lisp 17:19:37 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:20:08 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.185.232] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:20:11 -!- marioxcc` [~user@200.92.185.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:34 marioxcc [~user@200.92.185.232] has joined #lisp 17:21:27 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:24:48 btw, regarding lisp packaging - how many people here use libcl? 17:25:16 even better would be info for libcl, clbuild, asdf-install and the various lesser known tools. 17:25:43 p_l: don't forget Lispy and cl-librarian 17:26:09 deepfire: premature generalisation is the root of accidental complexity, in my experience. I have been _very_ guilty of it myself and only recently come around. 17:27:18 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:27:20 p_l: i have tried all of them, and written my own. At this point i use clbuild, but i think Lispy is the best of the bunch and plan to move in that direction 17:28:36 p_l: the lispy author wrote about the alternatives 17:28:39 -!- Guest84580 is now known as reb 17:28:47 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:50 drewc: so what is your methodology? 17:28:53 p_l: http://common-lisp.net/project/lispy/versus.html 17:29:10 I have some code to check out and update from the public Lisp repositories. 17:29:26 I'll have to see how it compares to everything else .... 17:32:35 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:33:46 prxq: basically, i update the world once every few days and try to build everything i have.... this is mostly a product of using clbuild rather than a personal preference, but there are some advantages to keeping up with the bleeding edge. 17:35:19 drewc: oh i mean the premature generalization. How would you define premature generalization? 17:35:35 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 17:35:46 making the framework support more than what you'll ever need? 17:36:05 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 17:36:14 tic: but how do you know? 17:36:39 -!- tass [~user@81-224-161-54-no110.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:36:44 Is the premature generalization the attempt to design the all dancing all singing solution to the problem that does everything instead of actually implementing something that works 17:36:52 well, I guess it is like in premature optimization. How do you know you'll always have enough resources 17:36:58 prxq, you know by not adding support for more than you can concieve. 17:37:08 eek, I missed a comma or two there 17:37:15 prxq, you don't. you'll always have took look at what you have now, and know you will have in the near future 17:37:20 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:37:33 know /what/ you will have... 17:38:37 prxq: oh :) 17:39:43 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:07 Xach: I know - what I need is *numbers* 17:40:21 And I'm planning to use Lispy as a base 17:40:23 prxq: I simply don't generalize until i actually need it... 17:40:43 (after drewc's recommendation few weeks ago) 17:41:54 prxq: that's obviously a gross simplification... i try to develop small independent components that do one thing and one thing only.. so almost extreme specialization. 17:42:20 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:43:22 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:43:26 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:43:49 prxq: eventually, when patters repeat themselves, you still generalize, but by specializing, if you will. 17:44:21 i can't explain the difference in and coherent way 17:44:38 drewc: is it not more of a balancing act ...repeated patterns get generalized and specific tasks are specialized 17:46:35 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 17:46:46 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:47:37 and when a generalized fucntion starts getting parameters that influence control flow in the function you need to specialize a bit more 17:47:50 Harag: i prefer the generalisation to be a product of combining specialized components.. so repeated patterns are broken down and those small pieces rather than made into a generalised interface. 17:48:11 Phoodus [foo@174-26-247-120.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:16 drewc: i agree with that 17:48:23 then a thin layer over those components is your generalisation, and not a 'framework' 17:48:39 a generalized function should do only one thing 17:48:49 basically, no frameworks, only simple libraries that are good friends. 17:49:46 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:50:52 that is not simple to do because of possible interface dependancies...and once the libraries know about each other is it not already the beginnings of a framework 17:50:55 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 17:51:31 or would you prefer the word "colaboration"? 17:51:52 egoz [~Egoz@114.79.55.167] has joined #lisp 17:53:14 xan_ [~xan@219.6.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:20 rabar [~jonathans@jspeis.student.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 17:56:07 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-245-67.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:56:54 *p_l* is very happy that he can specialize on symbols 17:58:07 I no longer remember what I needed it for, though :/ 17:58:28 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:58:35 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@80.153.54.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:59:10 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-249-105.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:20 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.193.68] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:00:22 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 18:01:24 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 18:02:02 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 18:02:41 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:07:09 kwinz3_ [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has joined #lisp 18:08:32 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 18:09:43 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:10:56 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:11:01 Is it possible to expand a potion of parenscript so that it will represented as string in an enclosing parenscript eg. (set-timeout (async-request request) update-delay) => setTimeout("asyncRequest(request);") update-delay; 18:11:11 potion/portion 18:11:17 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has joined #lisp 18:12:40 sure that's possible, any data manipulation generally is :-P 18:12:56 Guthur: 18:13:00 *definitely 18:13:05 Guthur: sure... isn't that what parenscript does anyway? use (ps:ps* `(set-timeout ,(ps:ps (async-req rew)) update-delay)) 18:13:10 or something like that 18:13:14 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-yykdqtjvxahpeidz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:15 bytecolo` [~user@70.133.64.87] has joined #lisp 18:13:19 a the , 18:13:28 I see now, cheers 18:13:37 'code is data' :) 18:13:45 amaron_ [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:14:00 hehe, it is wonderful. 18:14:44 -!- bytecolor [~user@70.133.64.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:15:18 Guthur: (ps:lisp (ps:ps ...)) 18:15:23 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B998.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:51 basically, ps:lisp block is normal CL and the result is passed to enclosing block 18:15:53 what's the english plural of status? 18:16:02 carlocci [~nes@93.37.201.176] has joined #lisp 18:16:02 tcr: states? 18:18:01 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-169-82-173.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:18:49 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082CAC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:19:02 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:19:54 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:28 tcr: "status" i believe 18:20:53 <_3b> 'statuses' according to random web dictionaries 18:22:06 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:22:35 i think oxford and webster might disagree on that one... could be wrond 18:22:35 wrong 18:25:25 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:25:26 well in latin, it's status but with a very long u 18:25:42 statui? 18:25:44 nullPointer [~gerard@89.131.120.152] has joined #lisp 18:25:50 p_l: states would be the plural of statis. 18:26:06 prxq: wrong declination :-) 18:26:27 regards 18:26:31 tcr: well congratulations for knowing latin :-) 18:27:04 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:37 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-252-170-201.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:22 excuse me for my poor english.I´m newbie. I want a recommendation of lisp environment. I need a environment for enterprise applications and much libs, connect to DBs. Tools like GUIBuilder too is needed. If is possible will be nice have a environment with "live objects" like Smalltalk, without compile time; an image of live objects, but that last is only optional. 18:30:25 arguably 'states', though not the plural form of status, might be more correct... status is already a plural form.. it's a collection of states at a specific instance in time, non? :) 18:30:45 nothing important if is commercial or not 18:31:17 which is more close option? 18:31:40 nullPointer: I'd think about either Lispworks or Allegro CL 18:32:08 http://www.lispworks.com and http://www.franz.com 18:32:25 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:40 lispworks sounds good :) 18:32:57 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-245-67.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:24 both are commercial implementations, they also have good support and various packages that might be harder to get with free lisps (not impossible, but it won't come "prepackaged" and might require more experience) 18:34:06 Regenaxer [~baldur@pd9568a7a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:34:46 konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has joined #lisp 18:35:05 many thanks. I believe is a good start point. 18:35:08 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 18:35:15 there's of course quite a lot of people that might be up for consulting if you went with free lisp environment - it's just that stuff like GUI Building etc. aren't that easily available and people often "roll their own" (partially because Lisp makes it easy, and despite all advancement with lisp packaging I find it hard myself sometimes to find libs - not necessarily because they don't exist, but because there's nothing like ... 18:35:24 ... RubyGems or similar) 18:37:17 LW and ACL come kind of "prepared" 18:37:29 p_l: there is cl-user.net 18:38:21 prxq: yes, there's. However, I found it surprising that quite a lot of people, even *here*, didn't know of it when I mentioned it few months ago. 18:38:52 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 18:40:59 my recent take on "SEO" wrt SBCL and rest was also related to that issue. 18:41:48 p_l: That worked a treat, your ps-fu is strong 18:42:44 saikat_ [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:21 Guthur: I'd call that "SLIME completion"-fu :) 18:43:39 jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has joined #lisp 18:43:39 nullPointer: or use ABCL; you can write your GUI in Java; do the program logic in CL. 18:44:04 nullPointer: interfaces nicely with all the java libraries out there. 18:44:30 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:01 exists some implementation running with .NET 18:45:03 ? 18:46:31 nullPointer: there is rdnzl, http://weitz.de/rdnzl/, no idea if it does what you want 18:47:43 rdnzl does a fine job on .NET interop, afaik, and even if it doesn't work for you, writing .NET interop with CFFI shouldn't be too hard 18:48:21 though I'd go about it in different way than RDNZL did. 18:48:37 I know that RDNZL is shipped with at least one commercial lisp for that, though. 18:48:38 -!- amaron_ [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:48:52 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:49:03 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 18:49:21 -!- saikat_ is now known as saikat 18:49:50 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:51:23 p_l: What way would you go? native CL.net implementation with DLR 18:51:26 ? 18:51:47 or even just the CLR 18:51:49 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:29 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 18:53:41 Guthur: no, I'd use FFI to mscorlib.dll (or whatever the exact name was) and its Mono equivalent. 18:54:56 p_l: what does rdnzl do? Sockets? 18:54:57 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-64-199-184.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:10 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:55:38 prxq: .NET interop 18:55:44 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-177-200-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:14 it goes at it in non-standard way, though, and uses some deprecated components. 18:56:58 I had an idea, but I don't have a working Windows install to use (I have to wait to get my other laptop into working shape for that) 18:58:00 hello 18:58:57 tass [~user@81-224-161-54-no110.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:03 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:16 ost: hi 19:01:29 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:01:31 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:05:55 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:06:26 Mimisbrunnr [~Mimisbrun@wpa062135.Wireless.McGill.CA] has joined #lisp 19:06:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:07:36 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:09:29 -!- Mimisbrunnr [~Mimisbrun@wpa062135.Wireless.McGill.CA] has left #lisp 19:09:30 -!- Regenaxer [~baldur@pd9568a7a.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 19:10:52 stipet [~user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:12:57 Sebastie1 [~Sebastien@x-132-204-34-184.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:13:02 p_l: on the subject of cl + dotnet ... I was thought of waiting for the clojure guys to finish there .net port to see if some of their code/ideas could be used to do a proper cl for dotnet 19:13:10 -was 19:13:59 -!- Sebastie1 is now known as lavoiecs 19:16:54 -!- lavoiecs [~Sebastien@x-132-204-34-184.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 19:16:55 francogrex [~user@91.177.144.18] has joined #lisp 19:17:51 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:17:55 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:20 Hi I think I advanced a little bit in making my CL powered webserver 19:18:36 can you please just test to see if it works ok? 19:19:21 Harag: well, ABCL can be coerced to run on .NET 19:19:29 http://192.168.1.13/index.html 19:19:55 francogrex: that is not a public IP address 19:19:55 it's suppoised to be very simple uses ECL and cgi and IIS 19:19:57 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-176.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:08 Ummm, what Xach said. 19:20:22 minion: tell francogrex about dyndns 19:20:26 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``dyndns''. 19:20:27 ok; I will need to find my ip;, I tested it a wrok 19:20:45 p_l: by coerced you mean ...? 19:21:01 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:21:58 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Client Quit] 19:22:30 hmm strange 19:23:25 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:24:13 on another pc and another ip address it worked just fine; now at home it doesn't 19:24:18 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-148-174.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:54 Ogedei: my initial desire for this notify/listen thing was to write a jabber bot that alerts me when certain database tables are updated. 19:25:59 Ogedei: postmodern has been very easy to adapt. 19:26:12 the notify/listen stuff means it can be done without polling. 19:28:41 dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:28:44 -!- xan_ [~xan@219.6.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:14 mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:31:50 Xach: cool! how's the patch coming along? 19:32:24 Ogedei: stalled on documentation again 19:32:38 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:32:50 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:33:13 Ogedei: I have *my* use-case in mind, but I don't want people to get confused about how notifications work, and what can be done in a notification callback. e.g. you might get one during some unrelated activity. 19:33:32 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 19:34:32 Xach: documentation is boring, eh? if you have a well-tested API ready, I can take it from there 19:35:14 Ogedei: i don't find it boring! worthwhile, but difficult 19:35:37 xan_ [~xan@219.6.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:20 http://xach.com/tmp/postmodern-notify-callbacks.diff is what i have for today. 19:37:22 ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has joined #lisp 19:40:30 Harag: IKVM 19:40:32 Xach: I was thinking one callback function per notification type -- so people don't have to do the dispatching themselves. 19:42:18 Ogedei: sounds like a good idea to me. 19:43:08 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:43:46 ak70 [~ak70@85.232.202.160] has joined #lisp 19:45:26 suczker [~suczker@gprs9.vodafone.cz] has joined #lisp 19:45:55 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:46:01 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-64-9.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:46:46 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:48:03 -!- tass [~user@81-224-161-54-no110.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:06 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 19:50:17 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:23 -!- bgs000 [57o9@57o9.org] has quit [Changing host] 19:50:24 bgs000 [57o9@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:50:24 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-198-111.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:50:25 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 19:51:58 p_l: only for mono so far... i had a crack at porting abcl with a java to c# code converter a couple of years back but the code converter I had was still a bit iffy 19:55:31 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:58:45 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 19:59:05 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:55 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 20:02:23 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:01 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 20:04:20 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:04:35 how hard is it to implement something like simple prefix completion for strings? 20:05:48 anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:47 clhs mismatch 20:06:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mismat.htm 20:07:22 -!- ak70 [~ak70@85.232.202.160] has left #lisp 20:07:24 (or would you rather using a trie?) 20:08:16 Documentation is useful like unit testing is useful, both activities will expose weakness in your code and the API, but both activities are painful and tedious. 20:10:51 Harag: even if only for mono, I *do* recall someone talking last year about using .NET, CL and IKVM to do some commercial work, I think related to second life? 20:11:41 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-117-176.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:12:26 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:47 p_l: ok kewl, thats interesting 20:12:51 p_l: sounds like something dmiles_afk might have odne 20:14:18 afaik, abcl generates bytecode streams directly, so I don't know how feasible a straight port to .net would be 20:15:56 though something like ikvm should still be compatible, as it would run those bytestreams 20:16:03 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:33 Big picture question. Most of the functions and support data needed to inspect a lisp image are available through the standard, all an IDE does is present that information? 20:16:39 pickles [~paul@d47-69-2-54.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 20:16:55 depends on how deeply you inspect 20:17:08 things like stack/backtraces are purely implementation specific 20:17:09 sav [~sav@189001136178.usr.predialnet.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:17:31 as are low level MOP operations, disassembly output style/language, etc 20:17:44 s/MOP operations/MOP implementations/ 20:17:46 Phoodus: i was just playing around with the cl built in functions stuff from abcl i had the beginnings of my own .net intermediate code generator 20:18:24 Phoodus: Yeah, ok, but still all of the useful stuff is part of the implementation, the IDE is just presentation. 20:18:31 tmh: afaik, there isn't even any way in the CL standard to introspect the slots of a structure 20:19:03 right, but those things are not available through the standard 20:19:24 your last statement tends to be typical of most IDEs regardless of language 20:23:55 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:26:00 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 20:26:29 dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:27:12 I'm trying to conceptualize what makes lisp so much easier to develop and debug. When I end up with a backtrace, I'll go to the offending function, correct it and choose the retry option and the program goes happily on its way. When I want to modify a function, I just update the function. There was a fundamental design decision in lisp compared to say, C or fortran, that facilitates that. 20:27:19 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:27:37 The event-loop, I realize, but still. 20:28:39 REPL and some standard metadata 20:28:45 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 20:28:51 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:54 Python is similar 20:29:06 koning_r1bot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has joined #lisp 20:29:55 -!- koning_robot [~aap@88.159.110.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:01 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 20:33:04 sorry that's just not true 20:33:26 Visual Studio has edit and continue for all its supported languages . . . 20:33:44 admittedly it is a hack :) 20:35:57 -!- suczker [~suczker@gprs9.vodafone.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:37:07 c|mell: That's kind of what prompted my question. Some IDE's for languages that aren't interactive provide facilities for incrementally update the executable, but it's more a feature of the IDE than the language. 20:37:50 well, is the debugging environment part of the language envrironment/runtime, OS, or IDE? 20:38:26 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 20:40:23 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@pdpc/supporter/active/mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:42:50 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:44:03 silenius [~silenius@f053012149.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:31 deepfire: here? 20:47:04 python and ruby have repls, but they don't have a culture of edit and continue i think 20:47:34 i guess it's because lisp and smalltalk are implemented in themselves, which sort of encourages this 20:47:58 (i mean in many cases lisp environments are heavily made in lisp) 20:48:02 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:44 -!- tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:57 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.187] has joined #lisp 20:53:11 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:55:24 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:57:13 tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:47 fy__ [~AndChat@32.sub-97-163-22.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:16 -!- davertron [~Dave@74-92-46-229-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:02:22 -!- fy__ [~AndChat@32.sub-97-163-22.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:28 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:02:44 fy__ [~AndChat@32.sub-97-163-22.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:05 sometimes in slime, when i change buffer and return to previous one again, the position of the cursor has moved quite a bit away. Usually to a defmethod. Any idea why that might be happening? 21:03:34 deepfire: I'm here now 21:03:53 prxq: change by what way? 21:04:10 francogr` [~user@11.36-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:04:31 c|mell: Python has more of slime-like REPL, imho, but lacks the condition system to allow similar workflow (but it's quite near what you can do without it), Ruby programmers tend not to use that, though they use completion etc, it's far less used. OTOH, it's kinda related to editing tools used 21:04:31 tcr: C-x b 21:05:45 c|mell: the tkinter-based "ide" that is afaik part of default distro (at least for windows) encourages edit-and-continue, as it was called. 21:05:52 Sounds like something in slime forgets about saving the excursion 21:06:34 tcr: if I do C-x b RET C-x b RET i'm in the buffer where I started, and the cursor is somewhere else from where I left it. In asdf.lisp, it always is at the (defmethod perform :after ((operation operation) (c component)) line 21:06:40 p_l: Does I have heard it said that python encourages a wrap everything in classes approach 21:06:55 Which may not lend itself to REPL style 21:07:03 c|mell: Ruby people tend not to, because a) A big chunk probably doesn't care b) a big chunk uses TextMate and thinks they are using peak of editing capability everywhere. Those two groups don't necessarily intersect. 21:07:05 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:07:09 p_l, i think the true path to lisp would involve having the editor more integrated into the image :) 21:07:11 -!- francogrex [~user@91.177.144.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:07:20 maybe it is really more a tradition than anything else 21:07:30 -!- sjbach [~sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:36 s/Does/ 21:07:44 that's my argument -- it's more about culture than anything about the language per se 21:08:00 prxq: What are the lasts few expression in *slime-events*? 21:08:01 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:08:22 c|mell integrated more than emacs and slime? 21:08:27 Guthur: still, the tkinter "ide" and ipython IMHO encouraged "reload just this one file and play further with your current image to see how it worked" more than known (to me) Ruby tools. 21:08:37 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:15 -!- francogr` [~user@11.36-244-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:17 I have zero experience and really knowledge of Ruby 21:09:43 When I was working on a certain bit of code two years ago (which was the last time I worked with Python seriously) I used to simply invoke "reload file" and test away... okay, I way too often restarted ipython, but that was for different reasons, iirc (or me simply not being used to the tool - I don't remember) 21:09:51 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:53 tcr: something on debugging, but I think I found the reason. There was another frame with the file open, and there the pointer was in that position 21:10:24 -!- stipet [~user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:27 if I delete the frame, everything works as expected 21:10:38 is there something like *PACKAGE* in python, or its packages are completly tied to files? 21:11:02 -!- egoz [~Egoz@114.79.55.167] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:31 Guthur, yes emacs is implemented in its own language . . . 21:11:36 thawk [~48c6d4cb@gateway/web/freenode/x-azsdyfoydlnexdpt] has joined #lisp 21:11:41 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:52 Guthur: and a good deal of C. 21:13:55 eh 21:13:55 That can be an advantage actually 21:14:01 rabar_ [~jonathans@jspeis.student.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 21:14:06 c|mell: sorry I may have miss understood, I not sure what more you would want besides slime and emacs 21:14:10 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:14:11 slime's architecture is, I guess, more stable than everything-in-an-image 21:14:15 -!- rabar [~jonathans@jspeis.student.umd.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:14:46 Guthur: What a good question. what more does one really need :) 21:14:54 ost, completely tied to files. or classes. or (...). Moreover, it's modules, not like packages. Which are a lot less flexible, can't (at least when I tried) create symbols in other modules. 21:14:59 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 21:15:01 lichtblau [~user@pD9542C51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:15:09 I think it would be nice to have a CL IDE so that it could be customized on the fly and could take advantage of CL libraries, but I would still want to use a separate image and swank for development. I'm just tired of wanting to do customization in emacs only to remember that that means elisp. 21:15:45 I just used the slime-connect last night for the first time so I'm at that really impressed stage regarding slime at the mo 21:15:45 harovali [~harovali@r190-135-10-148.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:15:48 tmh: the same for me 21:15:59 Guthur: have you watched slime.mov? 21:16:33 p_l: A bit, I can't seem to get a download version so that I can seek through it 21:16:48 my internet connection isn't always good enough for streaming 21:17:22 hi , I've just installed slime and sbcl . I'm gettinf an error when I M-x slime , namely that it dosn't find the swank-sbcl.fasl file , but in the directory where it looks for it , what gets compiled is swank-backend.fasl , any hint ? 21:17:30 tic: I've tried Python, and couldn't stand it's repl for exactly that reason 21:17:56 python is all about edit/reload, repl is optional 21:17:59 harovali: how did you install slime? 21:18:09 a package in cl is not unlike a local directory, in some ways 21:18:10 tmh: better? http://www.gnu.org/software/soc-projects/ideas-2010.html#guile 21:18:56 ost, yup. 21:19:10 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-132-189-83.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:19:41 minion: tell Guthur about slime.mov 21:19:41 Guthur: direct your attention towards slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 21:19:53 Guthur: put this through wget, it will download just fine 21:20:23 p_l: cool, cheers, 21:20:33 bloody good thing to watch :-) 21:21:01 Even the small bit I watch was gold dust 21:21:08 andreer: Better, but still not CL. 21:21:18 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-240-179.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 21:21:54 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:22:12 remote slime, ssh tunnelling, C-c C-d d & C-c C-d h 21:22:21 And thats just the first few minutes 21:22:43 Admittedly I should have known some of that anyway 21:22:44 tcr , I yaourt'd for it in arch linux 21:23:14 minion: tell harovali about clbuild 21:23:15 harovali: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 21:23:38 harovali: the most rock-solid way of keeping an up-to-date SLIME 21:23:52 maden [~maden@modemcable136.252-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:24:11 p_l: should I uninstalled slime and try with that ? or just running it will do ? 21:24:30 continuing with the complaining :-) I think 'B' in a debug buffer does not work any longer in current slime+sbcl. 'B' is supposed to give you the default debugger prompt. 21:24:43 Latest slime does not like the latest sbcl/win32 21:25:19 Its ok its a common opinion 21:25:30 prxq: yes that ceased to work some time ago 21:25:41 prxq: OTOH, you now have A which attached gdb to the lisp process 21:25:47 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-yglrwuqomewhxblo] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:26:01 -!- thawk [~48c6d4cb@gateway/web/freenode/x-azsdyfoydlnexdpt] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:26:02 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-15814.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 21:26:04 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-rlzzhxjaigzwjiva] has joined #lisp 21:26:04 tcr: does not sound like much of an improvement, imo 21:26:35 tcr: is there a workaround? 21:26:41 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 21:27:07 The workaround is get your hands dirty I guess 21:27:21 harovali: you'll have to change the path to slime in your emacs configuration anyway, so you don't need to uninstall slime (unless there's some Arch-related autoloading done, but I don't know about it) 21:27:22 -!- Ogedei [~user@e178193073.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:28:40 p_l: thanks 21:29:24 p_l: will /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/slime/ be fine ? 21:30:41 Wombatzus [~user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:50 tcr: I see. thanks 21:34:51 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:35:40 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:20 harovali: that's the Arch one. clbuild will generate a SLIME config for you, although you should change the slime-autodoc setting in it to T 21:38:04 harovali: http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ <--- have this 21:39:37 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:56 p_l: thanks 21:42:21 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 21:44:02 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:44:34 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:14 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:17 konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has joined #lisp 21:45:31 -!- clapautius [~me@188.26.53.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:46:37 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 21:47:09 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:25 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:47:32 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 21:47:57 -!- xan_ [~xan@219.6.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:48:47 -!- ost [~user@217.66.22.1] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:50:36 -!- tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 21:51:41 saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 21:51:56 -!- fy__ [~AndChat@32.sub-97-163-22.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:53:11 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 21:54:24 -!- Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.68.51] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 21:54:31 porcelina_ [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:36 -!- porcelina_ [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:44 -!- Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:55:55 harovali1 [~harovali@r190-135-28-188.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:57:28 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:58:01 -!- harovali [~harovali@r190-135-10-148.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:58:21 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:22 -!- Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:58:42 jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has joined #lisp 22:01:44 damn. Triple damn. I don't see getting out of PHP project... ;_; 22:02:05 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:34 -!- konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:05:57 how do people here the dual pulsion of lisping and haskelling ? 22:06:06 (deal with) 22:06:22 pulsion? 22:06:43 prxq: urge , want ,etc ... the desire 22:07:09 harovali1: dunno about pulsion, but I think the intersection of lispers and haskellers here is rather small, and those manage just fine 22:07:22 (I am personally focusing on Lisp for the moment) 22:07:43 Harag: ah 22:07:44 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:07:50 harovali1, i mean. 22:07:55 p_l: yes , i imagined that , well , I'll continue to tryiing to deal with it :- 22:08:12 harovali1: what is the problem? 22:08:29 or, eliza stylee, why is it bothering you? :-) 22:08:46 prxq: oh , no problem at all , just a .... existential choosing thing 22:09:02 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has left #lisp 22:09:05 prxq: i'd need an eliza session :-P 22:09:16 don't worry but thanks 22:09:56 it's that sometimes the "the right tool for the right job" isn't a deterministic enough criterion 22:10:16 harovali1: fun is part of the equation 22:10:54 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 22:11:27 prxq: true 22:16:19 Taggnostr [~x@dyn57-487.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 22:20:01 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:48 konr [~konrad@201.82.134.220] has joined #lisp 22:22:19 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 22:25:10 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-64-9.ipnets.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:25:31 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:26:13 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-21-124.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 22:26:23 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 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