00:02:26 Has anyone used 00:02:34 minion : binary-types 00:02:40 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:02:45 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:02:53 minion : binary-types? 00:03:12 minion: binary-types? 00:03:12 hehe I was just looking at that 00:03:13 binary-types: Binary-types is a Library for accessing binary files with fixed bit-length code-words. http://www.cliki.net/binary-types 00:03:49 Basically I just want to know if the binary-vectors from the extensions linked to on the CLiki page can be nested 00:04:10 -!- seelenquell [~kvirc@pD9E42DD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:04:33 I decided to roll my own solution, I have limited requirements, so can't comment on the libs functionality 00:04:44 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:04:51 Soulman__ [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:19 I think the author is in here sometimes 00:06:36 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:06:36 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632993.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 00:07:07 oh wait no that is someone else 00:07:23 -!- Soulmann [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 00:07:34 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:37 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:08:04 -!- palter [palter@clozure-78A0C567.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:08:06 palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has joined #lisp 00:08:06 -!- palter [~palter@c-75-68-177-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:06 -!- palter_ is now known as palter 00:11:15 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:12:05 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:23 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:15:22 Binary-types? That'd be frodef, who isn't around as much as he used to be. 00:16:51 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 00:17:20 -!- dasilvj [~dasilvj@unaffiliated/dasilvj] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:17:37 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:20:34 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:51 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:38 bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:03 dasilvj [~dasilvj@unaffiliated/dasilvj] has joined #lisp 00:25:38 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632993.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:26:14 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 00:26:26 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:26:56 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B1FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:22 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:36 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:56 -!- pix4 [~pixel@copei.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:36:10 dullard [~user@93-96-113-8.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:36:19 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.147.68.242.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: 'night .•«UPP»•.] 00:37:19 -!- bigjust` is now known as bigjust 00:38:51 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci_] 00:39:01 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:39:05 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B1FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:40:50 rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:54 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:01 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:43:36 Drakeson [~user@76-10-155-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:29 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AF94.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:45:56 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.10.7] has quit [Quit: netytan] 00:46:20 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632993.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:47:44 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@80.153.54.203] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:49:42 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:56:45 -!- Drakeson [~user@76-10-155-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 00:59:03 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632851.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:59:05 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-8-81.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:59:20 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 01:00:05 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 01:01:13 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-60-148.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:13:50 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:24 mik8y [~user@122.199.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:20:10 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:45 -!- alama [~alama@a95-95-130-170.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 01:27:52 slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:37 Jabberwock [~jens@port-1509.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 01:29:58 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-11714.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:32:13 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:32:27 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:53 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:33:30 -!- tmh` [~user@72-161-201-169.dyn.centurytel.net] has left #lisp 01:34:41 -!- bgs100 is now known as bgs000 01:41:31 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:42:11 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:49 -!- saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: saikat] 01:47:55 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:48:09 saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 01:52:34 -!- saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:53:19 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 02:02:21 -!- mik8y [~user@122.199.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:15 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:08:05 rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:50 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:11:58 -!- synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-161-36.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 02:16:59 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:21:12 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:44 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 02:26:35 fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:26:37 greetings 02:26:39 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-71-232-16-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 02:28:51 tip of the hat to the cxml hackers for a job well done 02:29:16 mik8y [~user@122.199.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:30:36 the beast was confusing until i dug into the specs and the php/java libraries. now it's self-evident. 02:31:18 Isn't that always the way? 02:32:13 -!- mik8y [~user@122.199.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:32 yep 02:32:56 and now i am too tainted to remember what was confusing about it 02:33:30 It's always some critical concept that just brings all the confusing bits into some sort of ordered harmony. 02:34:02 And it's a threshhold effect, too, so you can't go back to figure out why... 02:34:38 Journals might be useful for that kind of problem. 02:34:41 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:54 At the same time, I wonder if there's some qualitative difference in understanding from having wrestled with it without that critical clue for a bit first. 02:34:55 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.180.146] has joined #lisp 02:35:08 As compared with someone who started with that clue in the first place, that is. 02:37:37 fwiw, going in the dark with nothing to go by but echo-location makes one aware of all the subtleties. a hand-holding tutorial might have glossed over all the corner cases and subtleties that one discovers by rote repetition and trial and error 02:38:05 Well, except for subtlties of colour, and so on ... 02:38:58 there is nothing colorful about /TR/2000/NOTE-SOAP-20000508 02:39:11 ? 02:39:35 soap 1.1 spec that i have come to memorize, almost :-P 02:39:40 Ah. 02:39:44 On the w3c site? 02:39:57 yeah 02:41:12 after reading too many RFCs, one is able to just pick a random rfc and get the gist of it in an hour. i think i can do that now with the xml rubble of documents. 02:41:49 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-26-247-120.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:29 lunch time! brb 02:43:03 smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:04 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45:07 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has joined #lisp 02:47:10 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:47:21 -!- johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:48:17 johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:17 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-44.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:52:44 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-207.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:55:05 SpeedBump [~SpeedBump@cpe-173-095-150-096.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:11 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-56-44.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 02:56:50 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:58:59 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.180.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:05:05 -!- dullard [~user@93-96-113-8.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:05:21 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:08:38 ikki [~ikki@189.247.102.72] has joined #lisp 03:14:58 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:07 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:17:59 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:25:46 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 03:29:08 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:34:37 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:35:11 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:35:43 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gwokrtjnvejhpymh] has joined #lisp 03:36:20 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 03:36:44 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:36:56 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:39:22 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:47 Good morning! 03:43:05 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:19 Hello beach. 03:45:06 minion: memo for longkid: Yes, you overuse global variables. Instead of having the caller first create an object and assigning it to a global variable, and then calling a function that create subparts of that object, you should have the called function return a newly created, complete object, without referring to a global variable. 03:45:06 Remembered. I'll tell longkid when he/she/it next speaks. 03:46:49 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:47:16 pkhuong [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:47:25 synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-161-36.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:45 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest95940 03:51:56 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:52:28 -!- SpeedBump [~SpeedBump@cpe-173-095-150-096.nc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 03:54:00 -!- synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-161-36.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:54:35 synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-161-36.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:09 -!- synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-161-36.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:58:57 SpeedBump [~SpeedBump@cpe-173-095-150-096.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:59:58 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:00:38 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:01:04 I'm looking for a lisp package which will let me display data something like that found in this video (HMT-SLAM test run): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8lQdK6oRn0 Any help would be appreciated. 04:01:51 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:02:38 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:02:57 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:03:47 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 04:05:52 ericklc [~ikki@189.139.181.223] has joined #lisp 04:06:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.102.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:06:25 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:37 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:06:50 Any good reason why slime should say "process lisp does not exist" when doing C-M-x even though the repl is working fine? 04:06:52 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:26 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:09:38 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:09:54 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:01 M-x slime-eval-defun works. 04:12:24 I had C-M-x defined to do something in else in stumpwm, but undefined it when I realized that key combo is used in slime. Could that be the cause of the problem? 04:12:52 yates [~yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:25 i've just tried installing clbuild and slime, but i get this when i try to run slime mode in emacs: http://fpaste.org/sh9w/ 04:14:01 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:03 what have i missed? 04:14:36 -!- yates [~yates@cpe-174-097-145-232.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:15:12 vng [~user@123.20.76.155] has joined #lisp 04:16:51 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:18:06 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:18:22 Good morning! 04:18:28 Hello vng! 04:18:46 hello beach 04:21:08 -!- johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:21:58 yates: my second time asking a question no one wants to touch :) not surprising, since I can't find any real graphing packages for lisp that do anything close to what I want either... 04:22:34 oter than that, nothing 04:23:05 -!- SpeedBump [~SpeedBump@cpe-173-095-150-096.nc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:24:56 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:17 johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:32:12 minion: memo for Adlai, our shared box is not down but the domain name lapsed. Just renewed it. You can always use the IP to reach it 04:32:12 Remembered. I'll tell Adlai when he/she/it next speaks. 04:49:02 vng: Do you live in the Th c district? 04:49:22 beach: yes, i do 04:50:03 vng: I am thinking when I come in June, I should get a Hotel near the VNU. If you see a reasonable one, let me know! 04:52:19 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:41 beach: sure. I will tell you asap 04:53:48 No rush! 04:54:59 beach: Will you come at the begining of June? 04:55:21 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 04:55:40 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:55:44 vng: End of may, really. Probably the 29th. 04:55:59 beach: ya 04:58:26 -!- johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:59:39 -!- Guthur [~Michael@host217-42-130-127.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Computer says no] 05:01:01 randa [~randa@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 05:09:32 beach, any plans to visit Indonesia? 05:09:55 lat: Not any time soon, I'm afraid. 05:11:39 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 05:12:18 beach, too bad. I would like to meet you. I'm in the city of Manado on the island of Sulawesi. Let me know if you ever come this way. 05:16:48 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 05:17:30 lat: Will do! 05:24:26 johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:27:34 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:28:23 seangrov` [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:33 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:30:09 -!- bytecolo` is now known as bytecolor 05:30:43 mik8y [~user@122.199.247.2] has joined #lisp 05:34:31 -!- ericklc [~ikki@189.139.181.223] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:40:53 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:22 -!- hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has quit [Quit: hybrid_mind] 05:53:22 -!- johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:00:01 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-9-112.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:01:42 johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:04:50 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 06:10:29 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 06:10:32 -!- mik8y [~user@122.199.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14:02 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:22 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:18:16 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-15-105.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:18:43 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75644f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:14 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-9-112.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:19:49 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:20:00 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-208-140.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:29:44 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 06:30:47 ld_hw_cn [~root@121.34.218.137] has joined #lisp 06:31:27 ASau` [~user@77.246.230.118] has joined #lisp 06:33:32 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 06:35:25 -!- ld_hw_cn [~root@121.34.218.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:35:29 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 06:41:27 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 06:42:17 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:12 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:45:44 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:48:36 mik8y [~user@122.199.247.2] has joined #lisp 06:49:49 -!- smanek [~smanek@cpe-98-14-140-77.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:55:13 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:56:33 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:59:06 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 06:59:37 somecodehere [~ingvar@tallinn.webmedia.ee] has joined #lisp 07:01:13 haha stassats 07:03:01 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:03:17 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 07:13:10 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:13:44 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@tallinn.webmedia.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:17:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:18:49 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has joined #lisp 07:20:04 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75644f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:22:28 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:13 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 07:31:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:32:40 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:33:31 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:33:52 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:31 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:38:19 -!- mgr_ [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:39:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:39:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:40:14 -!- johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42:11 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:11 -!- tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:43:48 What would be a situation when an implementation would return nil from a call to file-position? Can a conforming implementation choose to always return nil, or to return nil randomly? 07:46:22 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:47:39 johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 07:48:59 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:49:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:49:46 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:51:01 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:53:10 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:33 -!- Krystof [~csr21@host86-180-235-163.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:57:23 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:01:07 tcr [~tcr@host178.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:01:45 -!- johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:02:27 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02:58 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:05:40 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:06:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:09:13 -!- _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:09:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:11:40 johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:17 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:25:55 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:27:19 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 08:30:51 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:33:33 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:29 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:49 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-22-192.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 08:40:48 beach: "return nil if this(the file position) cannot be determined" 08:42:36 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:45:58 Whoah what's that error trap tail when disassembling a struct slot accessor? 08:47:26 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-d48b72d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 08:48:28 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 08:52:12 hefner [~root@ppp-61-90-82-40.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:53:59 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:56:43 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 08:56:49 -!- hefner [~root@ppp-61-90-82-40.revip.asianet.co.th] has quit [Client Quit] 09:01:32 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 09:03:37 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:04:06 SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:05:16 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 09:10:21 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:44 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.230.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:16 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:15:34 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:32 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:19:11 Axius [~hi@92.84.17.54] has joined #lisp 09:24:39 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.17.54] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:26:23 ASau` [~user@77.246.230.118] has joined #lisp 09:29:10 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:34:24 -!- adlai_ [~adlai@97.107.133.187] has quit [Changing host] 09:34:24 adlai_ [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:39:06 -!- johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:40:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:41:29 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has joined #lisp 09:45:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:49:13 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B1FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:38 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:04:15 longkid [~longkid@58.186.232.240] has joined #lisp 10:07:17 seelenquell [~kvirc@pD9E47A30.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:20 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:10:20 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:15:35 nunb [~nundan@59.178.215.32] has joined #lisp 10:20:50 okflo [~user@93-82-152-240.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 10:21:06 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:35 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 10:23:06 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:18 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:28:30 hello 10:28:30 longkid, memo from beach: Yes, you overuse global variables. Instead of having the caller first create an object and assigning it to a global variable, and then calling a function that create subparts of that object, you should have the called function return a newly created, complete object, without referring to a global variable. 10:30:07 beach: OK. I understand. I'm changing the functions create-... 10:37:34 johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 10:39:17 -!- mik8y [~user@122.199.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:54 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:44:17 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:46:26 several years too late i thought of a phrase to describe the feeling you get when you download an apparently simple project and it requires at least 10 interlocking utility-style libraries and a test library 10:46:39 "Byers remorse" 10:46:54 -!- okflo [~user@93-82-152-240.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:11 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:49:51 what project in question? 10:50:00 Any project. 10:51:08 I thought that realization came from a just-made deja-vu experience 10:51:30 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 10:51:36 hello 10:51:48 hello 10:51:49 attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.207.212] has joined #lisp 10:51:53 -!- johnzorn [~jz@206-248-152-254.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:51:56 how is everything here? 10:51:57 Nope, I was just thinking about idle Planet Lispers and expensive purchases. 10:52:21 LaPingvino: things are always well. 10:52:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:52:29 ah great :) 10:53:10 are there some people around here somehow related to Climacs? 10:53:27 you have touched it once counts as well ;) 10:53:31 LaPingvino: lots and lots. No idea if any are awake atm. 10:53:46 ah okay 10:53:49 LaPingvino: you might be looking for beach 10:54:02 i started Climacs more than once, does that count? 10:54:07 sure :) 10:54:20 I am planning to use Climacs as the base for a bit bigger project 10:54:37 just to have a nice open source project to fiddle on in free time :) 10:54:38 *schmx* gives LaPingvino the big thumbs up. 10:54:38 that was you on the mailing list? 10:54:44 Joop Kiefte = me 10:54:52 stassats: Changing with-popup-buffer to use &key s is kind of ironic because it was changed back and forth between &key and &optional several times in past 10:55:08 stassats: don't use &key in elisp 10:55:46 I thought, let's get on the IRC to have some more real-time communication so as to get more instant feedback :) 10:56:00 tcr: i wouldn't say that slime.el is an example of good elisp style 10:56:14 I am putting up a website at http://lapingvino.github.com/Gamemacs/ 10:56:44 not ready yet, but it's getting structure that way I think :) 10:56:54 tcr: but with &optional i need the fourth optional most of the time, which doesn't look nice 10:57:06 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:57:19 LaPingvino: a game creation IDE. this will interest #lispgames :) 10:57:29 stassats: Then consider moving that more to the front. I expect helmut to change it back to &optionals, at least that's what he has done in past. 10:57:44 tnx for the channel indication, will pop it open here :) 10:58:38 tcr: i'll wait what he'd say about this whole modes thing 10:58:54 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 10:59:20 you're right that there was some bug, it was overwriting keybinding like `q' 10:59:45 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-201-110.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 11:00:50 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:00:57 any news on full autodoc? 11:01:18 *bytecolor* requests a term-only option to any henceforth cl based emacsen 11:01:30 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-15-105.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:01:55 this slime-with-popup-buffer thing took me more time than i expected, so i didn't touch full autodoc again yet 11:02:24 stassats: you working on the eldoc thing we talked about last night/yesterday? 11:02:33 bytecolor: yes 11:02:39 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:43 kewl 11:03:02 -!- longkid [~longkid@58.186.232.240] has left #lisp 11:03:09 LaPingvino: are you aware of another CL Emacs, hemlock? 11:03:12 minion: hemlock? 11:03:13 hemlock: Hemlock is an Emacs-like editor that comes with CMUCL (Debian users need to get the cmucl-source package). http://www.cliki.net/hemlock 11:03:28 dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 11:03:49 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-92-226.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:03:49 it's not only for CMUCL, it's portable and even can work with Qt 11:04:41 I know of it 11:05:11 didn't try it or look at it a lot though 11:05:28 and I think CLIM is a good base for what I want to do with it 11:05:32 but tell me about it :) 11:05:40 LaPingvino: Are you Joop Kiefte? 11:06:27 I am :) 11:06:29 tcr: about autodoc, if i introduce new parameter multilinep, how it will know it's changed and the cache is invalid? 11:06:38 slash_1 [~unknown@p4FF0BBB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:38 Oh, saw it now. Good. I am Robert Strandh. 11:06:44 greetings :) 11:07:07 LaPingvino: Reading scrollbacks right now... 11:07:17 ah okay :) 11:07:24 stassats: I'm not sure what you mean 11:07:59 stassats: the important bit is that you make :print-right-margin allways the window-width, and hence store the full autodoc in the cache; slime-oneliner should scratch the newlines 11:08:20 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B1FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:08:26 LaPingvino: I think I caught up. 11:08:31 stassats: i.e. multilinep only changes the presentations, not what's in the cache 11:08:54 tcr: ok, i see 11:09:01 LaPingvino: Any immedate questions? 11:09:23 yes 11:09:41 I am very curious about the past Climacs developer workflow 11:09:50 and mostly about issue/bug tracking 11:09:59 if and how that was done 11:10:09 LaPingvino: There has been no attempt at any bug tracking as far as I remember. 11:10:34 LaPingvino: I'm gonna add you gamemacs to my clbuild repos. 11:10:38 your* 11:10:40 tnx 11:10:53 stassats: you should post the package-deadlock workaround by redefinition of FOO on the LP entry 11:11:09 just be aware there are going to be added some more dependencies as submodules :) 11:11:22 and I still need to write how to set it up 11:11:28 but it's pretty easy in fact 11:11:34 at least with sbcl and emacs 11:11:36 LaPingvino: Any mailing list you will be spreading the news on? 11:11:38 The workflow has been quite arbitrary and varied. As I mentioned Athas was the last one to work seriously on it, and he was pretty much alone then. 11:11:49 schmx: The climacs-devel list. 11:11:51 LaPingvino: is it not just.. clbuild install gamemacs ;) 11:11:52 I think I will use climacs-devel if they allow me 11:11:55 sure :) 11:11:56 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 11:11:58 no 11:12:05 cools. I'll subscribe to that then. 11:12:11 -!- SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:12:31 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:12:35 So I think I will create some issue tracker then 11:12:46 someone suggested me to use his server 11:12:49 and is online now 11:12:56 at least, his computer is... 11:13:09 but doesn't react right now 11:13:27 I don't know how to get something set up on commonlisp.net 11:13:38 anyone can tell me? 11:13:39 LaPingvino: launchpad is popular now 11:13:44 LaPingvino: clbuild install gamemacs sure seemed to work for me :P 11:13:57 I really was thinking of using launchpad 11:14:00 LaPingvino: You send email to (I think) admin@common-lisp.net, or you try to catch one of the admins here. 11:14:01 so let's do that 11:14:01 LaPingvino: mcclim has now a launchpad bug tracker 11:14:05 great :D 11:14:15 I'll go for launchpad then :) 11:14:20 https://bugs.launchpad.net/mcclim 11:14:58 (and clx, and sbcl) 11:15:00 beach: I think it's a good idea to keep the game-related and climacs stuff separated on different bugtrackers. 11:15:13 LaPingvino: So what is your experience with Lisp development, and do you have any experience with CLIM, McCLIM, or any of the applications? 11:15:20 but maybe a good idea to create them both with launchpad 11:15:25 LaPingvino: Sounds good to me. 11:15:48 I am 21 years old and a lisp developer at a company here in the Netherlands 11:15:59 LaPingvino: congrats on the lisp job :) 11:16:04 Sounds good so far! :) 11:16:14 this project is a good way for me to get more insight in existing lisp stuff 11:16:15 livin' the dream! 11:16:16 and to make it easier :) 11:16:21 yeah :) 11:16:47 So I'm going to set up the bugtrackers now then :) 11:16:51 LaPingvino: I think you did the right thing to come here. Lots of people who know about CLIM, McCLIM, Climacs, etc hang out here regularly. 11:17:02 I thought already so :) 11:17:16 that's why I came here ;) 11:17:38 I really like the atmosphere now actually 11:17:52 Yeah, it's usually very good. 11:17:59 fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:11 I started with Clojure before I got a job in Common Lisp, so I had a good community there to get through the rough stuff I think 11:18:12 -!- slash_1 is now known as slash_ 11:18:41 but well, for game development it's not a good idea to get it all on Java I think 11:18:50 better Common Lisp :) 11:19:21 #lisp participants will probably agree :) 11:19:35 Does Climacs still work with modern SBCL? What about the Swank parts? 11:19:57 climacs starts fine on my sbcl 11:19:59 Athas: Hey, what a timely appearance! How are you these days? 11:20:02 didn't test swank :) 11:20:30 beach: I've been better, but doing alright I suppose. 11:20:31 LaPingvino: Athas come here regularly, but has been pretty quiet lately! :) 11:20:44 Athas: Ouch! Anything I can do? 11:21:00 It should be easy to update the swanky bits. It doesn't use Swank in any complex manner, but it fiddles with unexported symbols. 11:21:10 beach: probably not, but thanks for the offer. 11:21:26 i can help with swank, if needed 11:21:36 Athas: OK. 11:22:03 :) 11:22:38 https://bugs.launchpad.net/climacs 11:22:43 that's up :) 11:22:50 do you like it? 11:22:57 I will link the repository later 11:23:05 Looks good so far! 11:23:11 No bugs? I must have left it in a better state than I recall! 11:23:17 Heh! 11:23:24 fill it up I say :D 11:23:39 it will help all of us to get the painpoints clear I think :) 11:23:42 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.215.32] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:24:12 Athas: It still uses the (broken) buffer-update protocol, right? If so, I'll report that! 11:24:24 Is it broken? 11:24:34 Athas: Yeah, it should be per-view. 11:24:51 Oh... hm. 11:25:00 LaPingvino: what do you know of Climacs's architecture? 11:25:26 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 11:26:03 I have looked a bit into it 11:26:06 I could have sworn we fixed that, though. 11:26:06 not a lot yet 11:26:16 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 11:26:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.1] has quit [Changing host] 11:26:17 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:26:44 Okay, the important part is that the guts are a McCLIM editor substrate, called Drei, with Climacs itself being just a sophisticated shell around Drei. 11:26:56 Real development will probably have to take place on both in parallel. 11:27:46 beach: wait, we did fix this. 11:27:59 Really? 11:28:08 With the observable-mixin stuff. 11:29:04 Oh, OK. Never mind then. 11:29:35 Athas: I know it for that part 11:29:42 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:43 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:47 and Drei is a part of the ESA-stuff, isn't it? 11:30:06 LaPingvino: Of McCLIM, really. 11:30:10 ah okay 11:30:14 tnx 11:30:24 ESA is a utility library also bundled with McCLIM. 11:31:01 LaPingvino: ESA was written to capture commonalities between different applications that have an Emacs-like user interface, as opposed to the standard CLIM interface. 11:31:04 I have all parts from source, so I have seen that already 11:32:07 The best part of Climacs is when it dynamically changes the inheritance tree of its object instances at runtime. 11:32:51 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:32:58 :) 11:33:12 Athas: Where does it do that? 11:33:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:33:29 beach: that's how modes (the equivalent to Emacs 11:33:34 beach: that's how modes (the equivalent to Emacs minor-modes) are implemented. 11:33:40 They add mixins to the syntax or view. 11:33:53 Athas: That must be your work, right? :) 11:34:00 longkid [~longkid@58.186.232.240] has joined #lisp 11:34:57 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 11:34:58 Athas: Sounds like the right way to do it though! 11:35:01 Indeed! It's a very flexible design, but Xof was angry at me. 11:35:07 Why? 11:36:14 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 11:37:06 tcr, only back up helmut about his view on &optionals if you yourself also think that &optionals are a bad thing in elisp. stassats is also bothered about its readability, just like i was, and not without a reason... 11:37:33 beach: hello 11:37:36 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:37:41 hey longkid 11:37:53 beach: how are you today? 11:38:41 i find that one &key parameter is often more readable, not to say four 11:38:45 tcr, and sorry if i'm mocking you too much recently... &keys, eval/funcall, etc... after wien i hope you know that it's nothing personal... 11:39:47 longkid: It feels strange, because of a combination of things: 1. Khanh (PhD student) was here all afternoon yesterday, and we usually don't have visitors, 2. It's a holiday, and 3. The satellite TV is broken. :) 11:41:02 beach: 3 is a good thing 11:41:18 :) 11:41:21 beach: so you meet both lucky and unlucky things (TV is broken) 11:41:22 They're all good things. 11:41:23 https://launchpad.net/gamemacs 11:41:27 up as well :) 11:41:43 Unless Khanh is ome kind of crazy psycho killer.. 11:41:48 stassats, i use &optionals _very_ rarely for _very_ simple API's. but helmut doesn't like &key's because it's not native and hiders elisp debugging -- and sacrifices a whole lot of clarity and even features for that: he removed several features from slime i've added... some of them has been added back since then 11:41:53 But, to work! o/ 11:42:02 franki^: Non, on the contrary! She is a very nice person! 11:42:07 *No 11:42:17 I imagined so. 11:43:10 And the past few days, I have been reading up on algorithms for computing dominators in control-flow graphs. 11:43:22 *attila_lendvai* is afk 11:43:22 I think I know which one I'll implement. 11:43:41 beach: I have one question in my recent email, but I think it's better to ask you here 11:43:52 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:44:00 longkid: Probably so. I am terribly behind in my email. 11:44:02 I have created a Climacs development team on Launchpad as well on the fly, maybe you want to get in there as well 11:44:57 beach: I think you receive a large number of emails one day 11:45:09 longkid: Only about 50 or so. 11:45:56 beach: do you have some power to add the bugtracket to the common-lisp.net page? 11:45:59 As dan_b once pointed out, when you receive more email per time unit than you can process, you switch from FIFO to LIFO, and some just get left behind. :( 11:46:12 beach: how can we hold the values of the units for rows, columns, and squares? 11:46:46 LaPingvino: I think I might. If you tell me in very precise terms, I might be able to do it. Otherwise, I am sure Athas would do a better job. 11:46:55 longkid: What values? 11:47:24 beach: currently, I'm using an array of 2 dimension to hold all units of a game 11:47:39 longkid: Yes, I think that is not necessary. 11:47:54 longkid: You can just use a list for instance. 11:48:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:49:32 beach: so we'll have 3 list of arrays: one for row units, one for column units, and one for squares units 11:49:55 longkid: Why would you do that. It doesn't matter where a unit is located. 11:50:34 Just add a line like: If you use Climacs and encounter bugs, please report them in our bugtracker (https://bugs.launchpad.net/climacs) 11:51:37 beach: so you mean that we use only 1 list for rows, columns and squares? 11:52:13 longkid: Yes, there is no reason to know what cells belong to a unit. 11:52:57 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75644f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:06 tcr: the problem with sending minibuffer width always is that it cuts out to early, for example, (with-open-file (| the result is (with-open-file \n (===> ... 11:53:13 s/to/too/ 11:53:39 so, there should some other way of wrapping it 11:53:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:54:10 Athas: do you have the powers and do you like to do that? 11:54:24 beach: OK. I'll try this way. How's about the parent of a cell? Currently, I use an array to store it. Is it OK? 11:54:31 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 11:54:39 Just add a line like: If you use Climacs and encounter bugs, please report them in our bugtracker (https://bugs.launchpad.net/climacs) 11:54:41 to the common-lisp.net page? 11:56:16 Athas: Do we edit the index.html page manually and directly in the project directory, or is there some other method, like checking it out, etc? 11:56:40 longkid: You are creating problems for yourself, because there are so many more tools to work on lists. 11:57:20 beach: :-! 11:57:52 beach: OK. I'll try to use list for parent instead of array 11:58:28 adu_ [~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:44 Athas: You are currently the owner of that file. 11:58:58 beach: whenever one strategy can apply to a cell, we'll try to apply some strategy to the units containing that cell. 11:59:08 Athas: And the group doesn't have write privileges. 11:59:36 longkid: Yes, correct. 12:00:04 *LaPingvino* is off for a second to get some housekeeping done here 12:00:24 beach: I know how to correct strategy2 and strategy3. B/c I try to apply strategy2 for all cells of a unit, so I don't use the above step. 12:00:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:01:03 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:01:21 longkid: OK, but it is going to be problematic to handle the strategies differently. 12:02:04 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:02:05 longkid: I suggest you forget about the exact implementation of all strategies at the moment, and instead concentrate on getting the rest of the code in a state that new strategies can be added in a portable way. 12:02:51 beach: in a portable way? 12:03:06 tcr: oh, i see now, you meant just to remove the newlines 12:03:21 longkid: Yes, so that one can just "plug in" a new strategy. 12:03:46 longkid: Because there is another issue: The set of strategies used is going to determine the difficulty of the resulting game. 12:03:57 longkid: that's recognizing patterns and implementing them in a more general way, it will pay off for sure :) 12:04:11 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:15 (sorry for interrupting) 12:04:28 LaPingvino: Not at all. Go right ahead. 12:04:41 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:05:21 longkid: So at some point, we have to make sure all strategies behave the same way, and also make sure that we can take any subset of them and define that to be a level of difficulty of the game. 12:05:22 beach: I think we can "plug in" a new strategy easily. Currently, all strategy is indepently written. 12:05:29 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:06:12 "I think" should trigger a warning bell in you ;) 12:06:17 longkid: In a way, yes, but there is not an explicit representation of a "set of strategies". They just have names. 12:06:17 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:07:04 longkid: Very little code should mention the explicit names of a strategy. That should only be the code that determines the difficulty of the game. 12:07:24 Athas: Still here? 12:08:38 beach: for determining the difficult, I still don't imagine how to handle it. 12:08:56 may I see what you are talking about? 12:09:01 stassats: yes 12:09:20 beach: maybe I'll ask you later about that. 12:09:20 tcr: that's solved, but now ===> <=== confuses formatting 12:09:25 longkid: difficulty easy is (list #'strategy1), difficulty medium is (list #'strategy1 #'strategy2) etc. 12:09:52 LaPingvino: Sure: http://common-lisp.net/project/sudoku (I think). 12:10:20 LaPingvino: It was written (it is not quite done yet) as an exercise by my students in Ho Chi Minh City to learn Common Lisp. 12:11:07 LaPingvino: But longkid wants to work on games next, so perhaps you could help him out. I know very little about games. 12:11:08 attila_lendvai: There's no point in wasting energies by changing &optional and &key back and forth. Even though I may disagree on the issue, I value his and my time more worth than quarreling about style issues 12:11:20 beach: (list #'strategy1) creates a list of strategy1. This is so strange. 12:11:28 longkid: Why? 12:11:52 dullard [~user@94-193-162-78.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:12:10 longkid: Each level of difficulty must be represented the same way, or else you have to have code to explicitly test which difficulty it is. 12:12:13 attila_lendvai: and about the eval/funcall issue, it was good because you were right that EVAL is dog slow; and it also resulted in gabor pointing out that issue. 12:12:24 stassats: how? 12:12:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:12:39 longkid: These are just fundamental modularity issues. 12:13:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:13:21 beach: so we'll use this list of difficulty easy for solving a game? 12:13:25 tcr: it adds an additional newline because the string is longer with ===> 12:13:53 longkid: it's pretty core to common lisp that you can pass functions around 12:14:00 (swank:autodoc (quote ("with-open-file" ("" swank::%cursor-marker%))) :print-right-margin 157) for example 12:14:17 so, if you have some functions that you use together to apply the strategy 12:14:24 longkid: That's correct, because the contents of that list will determine how difficult the game is, i.e., how sophisticated strategies a user needs to know in order to solve the game. 12:14:41 you can just handle them as data as well, and use it in your advance to get a better grip on it 12:15:08 beach: ah I see. 12:15:19 stassats: can you paste the result of that rpc, and the result after the munging? 12:15:19 (to compare with (swank:autodoc (quote ("with-open-file" "" swank::%cursor-marker%)) :print-right-margin 157)) 12:15:45 tcr, yeah, yeah... but still, i sounded like only bugging you recently and wanted to take away from the sharpness... 12:15:49 beach: I'm modifying my code. After finishing, I'll post it to cl.net 12:16:08 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 12:16:17 longkid: Good, and we should make sure more people here know about it, so that they can give their comments too. 12:16:30 beach: Thanks a lot. I go out now. See ya later. 12:16:50 longkid: Take care! 12:17:03 :-D 12:17:21 beach: Where are you from? 12:17:26 stassats annotated #97312 "autodoc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97312#1 12:17:47 stassats: uh 12:17:50 tcr: i think that's the existing behaviour, without my changes 12:18:01 LaPingvino: Oh, that's a hard question. I usually say that I am from the European Union. But my passport says Sweden, and I work in France. My wife is American, etc, etc, etc. 12:18:11 I am Dutch 12:18:18 stassats: Yes I now recall that I saw that in past but didn't bother to fix it 12:18:19 my fiancée is brazilian 12:18:19 LaPingvino: Yes, I was guessing as much. 12:18:27 Nice! 12:18:39 From Curitiba? 12:18:44 and she is actually interested in learning to code :) 12:18:48 no, from Aracaju 12:18:51 Sergipe 12:19:38 tcr: the solution that comes to mind is to pass a path to the highlighted element 12:19:46 stassats: it needs some changes, but they should not be too difficult: 12:20:04 stassats: quite, but rather return character positions into the resulting string that should be highlighted 12:20:36 that needs some care on the emacs side and slime-oneliner 12:20:42 -!- longkid [~longkid@58.186.232.240] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:20:54 but fortunately, strings in emacs can have metadata attached to them :-) 12:21:07 ok, since that's not a regression, i'll still commit my changes 12:21:31 I added a first bug to the Climacs tracker, feel free to fiddle with it 12:21:45 and please join the Climacs development team on launchpad 12:22:02 it will give you some more rights for the projects there :) 12:23:25 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:24:01 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:25:03 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B9D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:04 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:34 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gwokrtjnvejhpymh] has left #lisp 12:27:36 beach: I am here now. 12:27:54 And you just edit index.html directly. 12:28:37 OK, so I need to make sure I have the right to. 12:29:19 Or, you can add the requested information. 12:32:00 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:32:36 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33:08 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:33:58 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:34:03 TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.147.162.250.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:34:42 LaPingvino: What do you think is a better size than 900x400? 12:34:52 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.133] has joined #lisp 12:35:51 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:39:45 schmx: I think it's generally a good idea to keep it in proportions with screen size. something like 640x480 or 800x600, or with some algorithm a bit smaller than the user's screen size 12:40:05 I tried with 640x480 and it looks a lot prettier already 12:40:22 and 800x600 might be better nowadays with all big screens 12:40:34 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:48 I just hope it won't crash on it if it doesn't size well to the default :P 12:40:55 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:46:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:48:40 somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has joined #lisp 12:49:01 LaPingvino: I added a h2 header "Issue tracking". See if you like it? 12:49:04 Athas: Thanks! 12:49:42 Guthur [~Michael@host217-42-130-127.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:44 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:49:46 -!- nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:37 LaPingvino: I guess maybe there should be some .rc file like thing for setting it. 12:51:19 but having reasonable defaults is reasonable too 12:51:52 Indeed. 12:51:55 Indeed, and we have briefly discussed that in the past. I suggest a ~/.clim directory and subdirectories like ~/.clim/Climacs/ where all kinds of things could be put. 12:52:24 *p_l* suggests /.etc/clim or similar 12:52:27 stassats: problem with reasonable is that it varies. I find 800x600 unreasonable small :) 12:52:42 p_l: Why do you suggest that in favor of .clim? 12:53:11 *stassats* unsuggests ~/.etc 12:53:12 You really ought to use the XDG directories. 12:53:23 What are they? 12:53:25 beach: ~/.config/clim to be exact 12:53:28 $XDG_DATA_HOME/.clim/Climacs 12:53:42 ~/.config is one of the few intelligent suggestions from Freedesktop 12:53:42 A Linux semistandard for where programs should put their configuration and data files. 12:53:45 yup the upstream asdf does that, too 12:54:13 Yeah, that's the suggested default for $XDG_CONFIG_HOME. 12:54:18 beach: reduction of $HOME pollution 12:54:26 OK, I'm for it. 12:54:36 you could probably just steal the code from asdf 12:54:51 p_l: substituted by ~/.config pollution? 12:54:54 *p_l* notices said pollution quite a lot since he doesn't use "easy to use" desktops and has to go through tons of dirs 12:54:58 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-22-192.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:55:24 stassats: there's difference of what you expect when you type 'ls -a' in ~/ and in ~/.config/ 12:55:25 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:55:37 stassats: The Gnome file dialog seems to show .foo directories by default, it's quite unmanagable to look into my ~/ using e.g. firefox 12:55:49 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f665e40-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 12:55:57 tcr: it's actually GTK-related 12:56:10 my Firefox does the same, despite having no GNOME linked 12:56:16 also, it makes usually directory listing of ~/ faster because not-showing .foo is done on the client side of the fs 12:56:34 beach: looks fine :) 12:56:38 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 12:56:43 also, ~/.config is nice and semantic ;-) 12:56:57 Why is my $XDG_CONFIG_HOME not set by default then? 12:57:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:57:18 beach: what distro? 12:57:26 I'm not sure any distributions actually set it, but programs are adviced to consider a missing value to be equal to ~/.config. 12:57:37 Which is probably what it would be in most cases anyway. 12:57:54 afaik the default is ~/.config and $XDG_CONFIG_HOME overrides it, though at least Arch sets it 12:58:07 p_l: Ubuntu 12:58:18 Athas: OK. 12:58:38 beach: weird, do you use custom profile scripts for your shell? 12:58:45 Nope 12:59:00 But it doesn't matter for now. 12:59:16 So in a few words, what are we supposed to put in .config (or whatever)? 12:59:19 anyway, it makes for a saner, IMHO, system 12:59:31 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:59:35 beach: yeah, there's also possible search path placed in XDG_CONFIG_DIRS 13:00:05 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-60-146.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:00:09 for example, XDG_CONFIG_DIRS=/etc/xdg:/etc/xdg:/etc/xdg 13:00:20 this one is rather borked example from my system 13:00:22 So can we aggree on ~/.config(or whatever)/Clim/Climacs or should we go all lower case? 13:00:55 /CLIM/Climacs if anything :) 13:01:01 case can be whatever, though I think I'd prefer clim to be all in one case, Climacs can be whatever :) 13:01:06 schmx: Right! 13:01:06 tcr: with all changes to the cache, autodoc-full is now even less sticky 13:01:15 *schmx* likes the lowercase then 13:01:30 clim/climacs? 13:01:46 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:01:49 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-8-81.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:01:54 sure 13:02:08 I am already using a few CLIM programs with issues like that, so I need to make a decision. 13:02:12 *p_l* will have to look into Climacs one day again 13:02:45 p_l: This might be a good time. 13:03:06 beach: well, there's a certain bug that really irked me last time... 13:03:31 p_l: we have a bug tracker now! 13:03:31 but the correct approach was way more generic and thus :effort: 13:03:34 p_l: Report it! Now that there is an issue tracker! 13:04:08 stassats: that's because any cursor motion will result in a cache miss 13:04:13 beach: If I get down to it, you might get not only a bug report, but a giant patch full of error handler code 13:04:26 gz_ [~gz@cpe-67-243-37-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:27 p_l: Hey, nice! 13:04:38 G'morning all. 13:04:44 Hello nyef! 13:04:54 p_l: do you remember what bug that was? 13:04:55 cause what irked me, was apparent complete lack of error handlers which caused simple operations to crash Climacs 13:05:00 Oh yes. 13:05:10 Athas: yeah, I mistakenly opened a directory and Climacs went belly-up 13:05:11 You need to read the scrollbacks to get an idea of this exciting news for Climacs. 13:05:28 Athas: you can imagine this giving a sour taste? :D 13:05:33 G0SUB [~ghoseb@unaffiliated/g0sub] has joined #lisp 13:05:51 p_l: hello, let's meet :) 13:05:55 how are you? 13:06:10 p_l: very. I remember adding restarts (so at least Climacs won't crash) because it was easier than error handlers. 13:06:16 I'm Joop Kiefte and just made that bug tracker 13:06:25 LaPingvino: yeah, just seen it 13:06:42 -!- gz_ [~gz@cpe-67-243-37-75.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 13:06:51 -!- Jabberwock [~jens@port-1509.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:06:52 -!- Guest95940 is now known as pkhuong 13:06:53 What I remember about trying to use climacs is having to start from something such as slime or that clim-desktop thing that established a global debugger hook. 13:06:59 right now I have some different work, but I might send some stuff for Climacs, especially if a certain project of mine goes forward. 13:07:06 Same for the clim-listener, as well. 13:07:55 IMHO CLIM should include a generic error handler *not enabled by default* that could be then enabled by applications as a catch-all to at least *report* properly before going belly-up 13:08:16 If I wasn't a console junkie I wouldn't notice what has happened. 13:09:09 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 13:09:20 gz__ [~gz@236.sub-75-238-87.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:10:34 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:10:41 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:11:54 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 13:12:24 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:12:28 nyef, we need at least a phylosophical part of a convincing UI story 13:12:48 I mean, some spiritual replacement of mcclim 13:13:24 which is being more and more acknowledged as a failure, on a technological level 13:13:49 some kind of banner, akin to beach's CLIM3 13:14:02 -!- gz__ [~gz@236.sub-75-238-87.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 13:14:27 so that there's a default direction to pursue for unguided energy :-) 13:15:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:17:39 Possibly, but there are so many other things to do as well. 13:17:45 (posted another bug ;)) 13:18:38 hmmm.... how open would commercial CL implementors be to questions regarding license for testing open source software against fully-featured versions of their implementations, with provision that the code goes with MIT-like license and the goal is actually to deliver it as contribs with their implementations? 13:19:08 (a wacky idea of mine to get a sort-of "standard/portable opensource toolkit" available by default) 13:19:14 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:19:22 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BBB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:19:56 _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:58 mgr_ [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:59 p_l, is it possible to have a free/open CAPI implementation? 13:20:20 tcr pasted "slime-list-threads again on local sbcl, now without consing!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97347 13:20:58 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:13 (if I correctly understand what you mean by "toolkit", that is) 13:21:51 deepfire: not CAPI, but I was thinking of getting a sort-of standard stuff for certain parts of UI in that (like CLI option parsing, simple command processor for very simple UIs instead of typing commands in REPL etc.) 13:22:06 the rest would include packaging of certain open source libs 13:22:08 Heh. Horrible thought for SBCL hackery: with-allocation-region and discard-current-allocation-region. 13:23:37 nyef: does it mean that stuff allocated inside the w-a-r block would be "destroyed" when d-c-a-r would be called? 13:23:41 *p_l* wanna! 13:23:47 p_l: Yes, it does mean that. 13:24:01 Dangerous thing to use, of course. 13:24:41 nyef: not so horrible. 13:24:58 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BBB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:17 nyef: dangerous, yes. Useful & powerful: Even more so 13:25:18 It's only not horrible if you actually know your allocation model. 13:25:52 again, last time I tried it, the problem was with hidden cached allocations. 13:26:14 So we'd need both a dynamic-scope w-a-r and a lexical scoped allocate-in-region 13:26:18 So, this morning I realize that genesis really want to use CLOS for some of its guts. 13:27:42 (Is there actually any problem with genesis using CLOS?) 13:29:07 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-1509.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 13:29:08 pkhuong: thread-whostate needs a lock because the writes are destructive modifications to a preallocated string in the thread object; slime-list-threads uses thread-whostate on each thread in the return value of list-all-threads; that can now take quite a while. Seems like a I want a select()-like thing but on locks. Any idea? 13:30:12 don't use a shared mutable string. 13:30:22 that means I need to cons 13:30:24 I don't understand what you mean re select on ,ocks. 13:30:40 which is even worse to cons in condition-wait, get-mutex etc. on a stop-the-world gc 13:31:15 tcr: once for the all the calls to thread-whostate 13:31:32 nyef: I think the make-host-2 genesis can't use clos? 13:31:34 once what? 13:31:41 you only cons once 13:31:47 froydnj: Why not? 13:31:49 And then pass the buffer to thread-whostate. 13:32:05 p_l: I sent that question to Franz and LispWorks. 13:32:15 Franz never returned the answer 13:32:17 I can't follow on that. Who should cons? The caller to thread-whostate? 13:32:30 LaPingvino: Still here? 13:32:37 nyef: oh. right. sorry, ignore me. 13:32:53 beach, how does CLIM3 go? 13:33:06 tcr: yes, once... 13:33:17 We can't use CLOS for anything that goes into the cold-core, but genesis is a separate application. 13:33:30 Does multiple calls to thread-whostate result in the same value (more or less)? 13:33:40 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:11 beach: just came back, was out for a walk 13:34:19 The -reason- I want to use CLOS is that there are currently three different kinds of value that can be written with write-wordindexed, and each has different effects, and two of them completely screw up the dependency graph. 13:34:21 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:34:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:34:49 pkhuong: there's a thread-whostate-buffer slot where condition-wait etc. store into so they don't have to cons. thread-whostate does return a copy; however condition-wait &c. modify the string in steps 13:35:53 beach pasted "For LaPingvino" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97348 13:36:12 LaPingvino: Got that mail in climacs-devel. 13:36:16 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 13:36:44 deepfire: Very slowly right now. I am working on SICL. 13:38:40 tcr: what sort of modification? 13:38:43 beach: thanks :) 13:39:18 pkhuong: adapting fill-pointer, then replace 13:39:24 multiple replaces 13:39:28 mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has joined #lisp 13:39:33 in condition-wait?! 13:39:56 yeah, if :whostate is given 13:40:37 What problem is there? It's going to wait anyway 13:40:49 hard to make it atomic (: 13:41:27 well readers are very very seldom, basically the user doing M-x slime-list-threads 13:41:41 tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:53 the problem is that slime-list-threads does that sequentially, so it tried whostate, waits a bit, then the next one etc.; hence my select() on lock to wait on multiple locks, acquire one that's ready and return 13:43:18 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:43:37 maybe the delay I'm seeing under a stress test scenario is due to using spinlocks :-) 13:44:20 I'm badly affected by allergies, but I think we can build something that's similar to lock-free copies. 13:46:14 I'm building now with changing spinlocks to mutexes 13:47:08 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:47:09 deepfire: It is an interesting exercise to see how much of CL could be implemented in a portable way. 13:48:09 deepfire: And then to see how little needs to be added in order to include a larger part in that set without sacrificing performance. 13:48:46 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-1509.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:47 tcr: how about double buffering for the thread state strings? 13:49:24 No, never mind. 13:50:33 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:51:30 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:34 why not? 13:53:00 *LaPingvino* is going out, and expects a lot of bugs on return ;) 13:53:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:53:37 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:38 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 13:53:42 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:11 pix4 [~pixel@212.60.130.33] has joined #lisp 13:55:31 pkhuong: I'm out for a walk, may be back in half an hour. 14:00:24 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@user-0c2h0f1.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:28 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:06:55 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:54 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:08:26 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 14:08:57 boyscared [~bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:10:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:15:07 LaPingvino: If I were you, I would hope for few bugs, but lots of reports. :) 14:15:46 slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:20:25 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3AE9.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:20:26 nunb [~nundan@59.178.205.99] has joined #lisp 14:25:24 Can somone explain to me in a few words what the SBCL reader does in order to keep track of source-code positions? 14:25:51 the sbcl reader does nothing 14:26:01 Ah! This sounds interesting! 14:26:10 I think ccl's reader does it 14:26:35 So how does SBCL keep track of source-code positions? 14:26:51 Phoodus [foo@174-26-247-120.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:56 billitch [~billitch@2a01:e35:8b7c:5ce0:223:54ff:fe7c:a524] has joined #lisp 14:27:02 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-214-244.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:27:17 ehu: and Lispworks? 14:27:23 build an EQ hash-table from cons to form-path where form path is a list of indices describing how to get to the cons from the toplevel expression 14:28:03 *p_l* does have ACL, but quite ancient one 14:28:09 tcr: I see! And then parse the form accordingly? 14:28:31 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.180] has joined #lisp 14:28:56 beach: yes pretty much right after it was read 14:28:56 p_l: they responded when I downloaded with questions about the trial version; twice. No reactions to life-long licenses though. 14:29:03 tcr: How does that work out in the presence of #n= and #n#? 14:29:20 it doesn't 14:29:27 tcr: And I suppose it doesn't work for symbols either? 14:29:39 yup, although I made it do that by some heuristics 14:29:45 LaPingvino: saluton! 14:29:47 but it's not in 14:29:52 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:30:23 tcr: I was thinking to do the same for ABCL - although I didn't know you did it for sbcl 14:30:51 tcr: Thanks for that short and precise explanation! 14:30:59 Before: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/hacks/sbcl/symbols-have-source-paths/sbcl-only-conses-have-source-path.png After: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/hacks/sbcl/symbols-have-source-paths/sbcl-symbols-have-source-path-hack.png 14:31:14 I am trying to send arbitrary chunks of data from hunchentoot to the client, but it seems to wait until all the data is written to the stream before the client picks it up; any suggestions or links to info? 14:31:30 Is it maybe to do with it all running on a the local machine 14:31:41 tcr: when will we see it? 14:32:12 ehu: Instead of giving up on symbols, you store all possible form-paths for symbols. Then when emitting a note / warnings etc in the compiler, you have *current-path* handy and can choose the best-matching one among all available form-paths 14:32:49 tcr: nice idea. 14:33:27 stassats: Dunno, maybe in a few months 14:33:28 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:34 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:34:47 I am currently thinking about a method for the reader to keep track of source code positions for prety much all expressions, while still maintaining conformance to the standard, and the possibility of users writing their own parsers. 14:34:57 ehu: Going through the reader has its advantages, though 14:36:15 ehu: because that will result in actual file-positions, not form-paths. To turn a form-path into file-positions takes a fair amount of magic in Slime 14:37:08 tcr: Oh, and that might not work for user-defined reader macros either, right? 14:37:28 beach: would your method work in all those cases? 14:37:44 ehu: That's the plan, yes. 14:37:44 -!- vng [~user@123.20.76.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:54 wow 14:37:55 beach: yeah, Slime will highlight the outer form in that case 14:38:30 ehu: It wouldn't work for places where the user does some arbitrary parsing without making recursive calls to read. 14:38:36 ehu: doing it in the reader is not difficult. Basically, an :around method which takes file-position on the stream before and after calling the reader macro function 14:39:27 tcr: That might not work either for arbitrary reader macros. 14:40:09 sure, except your reader macros tries to play general parser 14:40:11 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.147.162.250.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:40:43 -!- lithper2__ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431]] 14:40:43 but if you want that kind of flexibility, I'd suggest to get rid of the reader all together, and replace it with a general parser framework; build the CL reader on top of that 14:41:05 That's worth considering. 14:41:06 maybe something involving PEGs 14:41:17 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has left #lisp 14:41:22 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 14:41:36 It would be a bit of a challenge to keep it compliant. 14:42:17 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:09 Adlai`` [~adlai@89-139-13-252.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:44:40 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:43 -!- Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:35 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 14:46:52 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:49:21 oh well, autodoc stops working in the repl if you do (null (write-char (code-char 34))) 14:49:26 -!- seelenquell [~kvirc@pD9E47A30.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:49:51 -!- adu_ [~ajr@pool-173-66-9-50.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu_] 14:50:44 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:53:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:54:18 -!- _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:54:46 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:55:10 stassats: I think there should be no slime-autodoc-full; bind slime-autodoc on C-c C-d a, and make it display full on cache hit (that is either if used twice in a row manually, or directly after automatic display) 14:55:43 beach, I agree, it sounds rather intriguing for me as well, and it also make sense in the larger picture of things too. 14:55:54 *makes sense 14:57:16 Too much of CL implementations just reinvent things -- and the "freedom to tinker" becomes, instead, "burden of implementation". 14:57:33 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.230.118] has quit [Quit: off] 14:58:00 With the largess of what is the CL standard library and the small contingent of CL implementors this becomes a fairly serious issue, IMO. 14:58:38 Exactly what I think! 14:59:23 beach, and it actually goes beyond the CL standard, and into the set of extensions that we take for granted -- like, for example, external program invocation. 14:59:52 benny [~benny@i577A1907.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:34 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:39 deepfire: Hmm, yes, I haven't thought about that so much, but you are probably right. Though I don't see how that could be done portably. 15:01:11 beach, we'd have to standartise upon some kind of C support bedrock for that to work. 15:01:19 Ideally, anyway. 15:01:35 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:40 I see, yes. That might go beyond what I am thinking of right now, though. 15:01:55 I realise that anything that contains the word "standartise" is highly vulnerable, of course. 15:02:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:02:34 Anyway, I very much sympathise to SICL. 15:03:04 beach, can I have an URL for it, I googled for some time, fruitlessly.. 15:03:31 deepfire: Sure, hold on... 15:03:34 "sicl lisp" and "sicl strandh" yielded only irc logs.. 15:04:07 http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/SICL/SICL.git/ 15:04:24 pkhuong: thanks for the double-buffering idea 15:04:29 There is no indication of what works and what doesn't. 15:04:40 deepfire: But I'll tell you if you like. 15:04:41 And it even comes in a competent SCM! :-) 15:05:11 *deepfire* feeds it into desire 15:06:43 btw, how do people here feel about ASDF 2 does output translation to a cache by default? 15:06:59 beach's SICL could be a nice common body of code for lisp implementations, I think 15:07:07 should the cache be disabled by default, or enabled only for system-installed source code? 15:07:09 Fare: you mean like a-b-l? 15:07:13 yes 15:07:28 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 15:07:38 Fare: I think that a) if binary locations are set, output to cache b) if not, don't. 15:07:38 current default being a central per-user, per-implementation cache 15:07:52 p_l, that's what I believe beach is up to 15:08:04 p_l, there is no more binary locations. Now there are user configuration files 15:08:10 _macro [~macro@c-67-188-1-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:24 with a simple way to enable a central cache in ${XDG_CACHE_HOME}/asdf 15:09:07 beach, one thing which immediately springs up to mind is augmentation with type hints, which any efficient implementation doubtlessly does for all functions in the CL package 15:09:43 mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has joined #lisp 15:09:43 btw - regarding type hints: is there some way to get a "type flow" data from SBCL? 15:10:13 so I could see without disassembly how types are seen and changed in a body of code. 15:10:23 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:10:26 Nope I once started working on something like that 15:10:38 deepfire: There should be a beginning of that in Code/Types/types.lisp 15:10:57 beach, this sounds quite promising! 15:11:08 hmm. I know that the compiler does need something like that, but I want to get that data out (and preferably get other transforms as well) 15:11:25 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:27 deepfire: Well, it's kind of designed so that parts of it will be useful even if the rest is never completed. 15:12:08 deepfire: I hope to get some local help here in a week or so. We'll see what that leads to. 15:13:35 Adlai``` [~adlai@89-139-13-252.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:14:13 LiamH1 [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:14:54 Fare: I haven't yet seen any technical reason why it should be disabled by default. I'm not sure how strong "because asdf1 did so" as argument I should count for. 15:15:28 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.109.59] has joined #lisp 15:15:28 tcr: sounds reasonable, committed 15:17:01 gah, I got to recover semantic data from text. God bless PCL for its spamfilter chapter. 15:17:06 -!- LiamH1 [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Client Quit] 15:17:17 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:17:30 beach, I've pm'd you, is that okay/have you seen them? 15:17:36 LiamH1 [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:17:41 what is the best way to loop over plist bindig key,value each iteration? 15:17:46 -!- Adlai`` [~adlai@89-139-13-252.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:18:02 deepfire: Missed it. Looking now.. 15:18:03 (loop for (key value) on plist by #'cddr ...) 15:18:22 stassats: thanks 15:18:32 udzinari: iirc there's also an do-plist in alexandria 15:18:56 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:18:57 tcr: ty, cheking 15:19:17 -!- LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 15:19:49 stassats: ok let me try it 15:20:14 shiny slime-list-threads :-) 15:21:00 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:00 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:21:00 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 15:21:42 how did you make it sticky like that? 15:22:41 if car of the cache is unchanged, it's multilined 15:23:47 seems to work even though I didn't expect it 15:24:08 cool, now we only have to fix that highlighting issue :-) how much steam is left? 15:25:15 depends on how hard it would be 15:25:30 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:25:54 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:25:57 -!- mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:57 so, slime-fontify-string should be moved to the swank side 15:27:38 not that much if you can file-position on an output-stream (then instead of the (princ "==>") you do a file-position, and return the start and end file-position to the emacs side which are then the character start and end offsets slime-fontify-string has to operate on 15:28:26 mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has joined #lisp 15:28:33 swank:autodoc should return string + (start . end), where start till end should be highlighted 15:28:38 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:38 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:28:38 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 15:28:58 yeah, i got the idea 15:29:07 ok :-) 15:30:06 a recommendation for CSV library compatible with OpenOffice? 15:30:57 (format t "~{~S~^,~}~%" values) 15:31:11 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:46 Xach: for reading 15:31:52 doesn't handle quoting issues 15:32:25 different quoting styles, I mean 15:32:39 minion: memo for Fare: Sorry, I missed your private message. I'll be in VN for 4 weeks from may 29th and then again from december (but don't know whether beginning or end) for 6 months. 15:32:40 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 15:32:40 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:32:42 p_l: you mean reading something openoffice created? 15:33:14 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:33:24 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BBB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:33:26 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:34:06 Xach: yes 15:34:23 gotcha 15:35:23 *Xach* has nothin' for that 15:35:28 well, unless you've got XLS, XLSX or ODS parser stashed somewhere 15:36:54 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-yykdqtjvxahpeidz] has joined #lisp 15:37:14 hmm... going with fare-csv for now 15:38:11 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:11 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:38:11 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 15:38:14 does file-position work on non-file streams? 15:38:32 on string-streams at least 15:38:48 tcr: Where do you see that? 15:38:52 I think but do not actually know neither checked 15:39:33 Earlier I asked a question related to that: under what circumstances is an implementation allowed to return nil from file-position? 15:39:43 at least it works everywhere where slime is supported 15:39:46 stassats: swank-source-path-parser uses file-position on string-streams, so I guess it's pretty portable 15:40:17 I don't see any reason it wouldn't work on other streams. 15:40:46 it has _file_-position name 15:41:35 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:45 if it works on other streams, then the name is unfortunate 15:42:02 True, and it's in the streams dictionary. 15:42:36 jmbr [~jmbr@252.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:42:54 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:48:48 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:48 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:48:48 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 15:49:28 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:51:21 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:51:26 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:14 vng [~user@123.20.83.155] has joined #lisp 15:54:35 longkid [~longkid@113.22.186.79] has joined #lisp 15:54:59 Hey longkid and vng. How are the improvements going? 15:56:02 longkid: You never told me why you thought it was strange to have a list of a single function. 15:56:54 beach: b/c I have never used a list of functions, so I feel strange. That's all. 15:57:05 longkid: Ah, OK. I see. 15:58:04 beach: I'm updating my code as your instructions: create-..., use list instead of array for units 15:58:16 longkid: Great! 15:58:35 longkid: I mistakenly thought you were protesting against a list with a single element in it. 15:59:20 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:59:56 can you suggest me to implement strategy 4? 16:00:21 beach: I don't know how to implement it basing on strategy3 16:00:37 longkid: We'll take care of that once the code is modular so that it becomes easy to implement strategies. 16:00:48 longkid: Don't worry about it right now. 16:01:05 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:01:41 porcelina_ [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:43 zoe_ [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:09 beach: So I'll fix my strategies and after that submit it to cl.net 16:02:18 no, no 16:02:22 -!- porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:02:22 -!- zoe [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:02:27 longkid: Part of what I want to teach you is to always keep your code modular and maintainable. 16:02:45 longkid: We want to make sure the code is impeccable, even if it is not complete. 16:03:09 longkid: So we want to expose it to as many people as possible as soon as possible, so that we get comments from them. 16:03:10 16:03:18 longkid: *then* we add more functionality. 16:03:55 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:04:05 beach: Ah I see. 16:04:20 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:04:32 longkid: This process is going to take a while, because that's the way it is. Some people say it takes 10000 hours to become experts in just about anything. You have a long way to go, and #lisp can help you out. 16:04:44 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:05:19 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:05:31 longkid: The reason I haven't bothered to add anything to your code myself is that it would be pointless as long as it is not idiomatic. 16:07:07 beach: Yes, sometimes I wonder that you teach us a lot how to improve our work 16:07:31 beach: how to solve the problem 16:07:50 oh well, file-position doesn't work on sb-pretty:pretty-stream 16:08:47 tcr: you still have to lock around copying the old buffer, but at least the critical section will be very short. 16:08:58 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:09:12 longkid: Step one of your (new) training is to accept that there are idiomatic and non-idiomatic ways of doing things, and learning the idiomatic way takes *a lot* of time. Until you have accepted that idea, embraced the opportunity to become experts, and have a desire for perfection, there is no point in adding functionality. 16:09:20 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:10:43 longkid: This is why your colleague didn't cut it (I forget his name). He simply blamed the fact that he was unfamiliar with Lisp, submitted horrible unidiomatic C++ code to prove his point, and never got the point. 16:10:51 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 16:11:45 p_l: fare-csv used to suck, but last year I looked at what the other CL and non-CL CSV library were doing, and tried to do the Right Thing(tm). 16:11:45 Fare, memo from beach: Sorry, I missed your private message. I'll be in VN for 4 weeks from may 29th and then again from december (but don't know whether beginning or end) for 6 months. 16:11:48 longkid: There is only one way I know of to become an expert: try it out, expose what you did to a lot of people, listen to criticism, fix, and try again. 16:12:27 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:12:34 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:13:05 beach: Your advice is very useful. But I can't understand what the idiomatic way is. 16:13:32 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.79.204] has joined #lisp 16:13:57 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-120-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:59 longkid: because there is no way to explain it. And the reason for that is that it is the result of arbitrary choices by the community in the past. 16:14:37 longkid, it will come with experience 16:14:43 longkid: It is the same for natural languages. In English we say "tooth paste" and "dental floss", but it is grammatical (but not idiomatic) to say "dental paste" and "tooth floss". 16:14:43 longkid, what are you doing, btw? 16:15:14 longkid: This is your opportunity to explain to #lisp what you are doing! 16:15:38 -!- Adlai``` is now known as Adlai 16:15:44 -!- Adlai [~adlai@89-139-13-252.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Changing host] 16:15:44 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:15:54 beach: Like to try-and-fix style 16:16:16 longkid: What do you mean? 16:16:51 ska` [~user@124.157.253.207] has joined #lisp 16:16:58 longkid: Learning how to program (are you listening vng?) is essentially about knowing the difference between grammatical and idiomatic phrases of the language. 16:17:04 beach: Try to do, and after receiving the response from other people, fix our work 16:17:04 beach: cplex is free for academics, btw. You wanted to see if typesetting would work out nicely as an integer program, right? 16:17:10 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has joined #lisp 16:17:16 "programming is debugging the empty program" 16:17:21 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:46 pkhuong: That's news to me! And my wife is part of the CPLEX team! :) 16:17:51 beach: no, that's learning how to be fluent in a language. 16:17:54 damn, i'm really stumped on this pretty stream 16:18:19 Fare: To me, that's essentially the same thing. 16:18:28 beach: learning to program is also learning how to structure concepts, know the fundamental things that can be said, etc. 16:18:32 beach: it's now part of IBM's free-for-academics package. 16:18:41 Fare: Don't argue minor points with me when I am trying to make major points, please! :) 16:18:52 pkhuong: Good to know! 16:18:53 pkhuong: afaics the critical section is just as before 16:18:57 well, there's a difference between knowing how to speak english and being able to write a technical report, novel or poem in english. 16:19:02 sorry. 16:19:08 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:19:16 tcr: you still need a critical section when manipulating the old-state string. 16:19:16 *LaPingvino* is back! 16:19:34 Fare: "programming is debugging the empty program" ? 16:20:13 longkid: grammatical phrases in a programming language is what the standard says. In a natural language it is more vague, but let's say what a good book on grammar would say. 16:20:18 pkhuong: I see a problem if a reader tries to access the slot where the other thread changes the whostate three times in a row very quickly 16:20:48 empty program contains no bugs and thus is perfect, it doesn't need to be debugged 16:20:58 longkid: In a natural language, we actually use only a small fraction of the grammatical phrases, and those are the "idiomatic" phrases. 16:21:06 longkid, I don't know who threw this idea (certainly mature by shapiro's prolog thesis), but yes, programming can be seen as taking the empty program, and "debugging" until it is satisfactory. 16:21:17 stassats, depends what the spec is. 16:21:19 longkid: The choice is arbitrary, and it only has to do with what other people regard as "normal". 16:21:51 there is a part of arbitrary, but there are also strong selection pressures. 16:21:52 tcr: you have to protect accesses to the previous state with a (spin)lock, when copying it or when exchanging the old and current state. 16:22:06 so, though path-dependent, the result is not arbitrary. 16:22:11 longkid: It turns out, it's the same thing in a programming language. The "community" has long decided what is good style, and it is sometimes, but not always, based on deeper concepts such as modularity, reusability, etc. 16:22:43 longkid: So an essential part of becoming a good programmer is understanding the differences between grammatical and idiomatic phrases. 16:22:54 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 16:22:55 good style evolves -- but when you try to move it, try to understand why it was that way. 16:22:57 pkhuong: I'm not seeing that; I only allow the current thread to change its whostate, so there's only ever one writer 16:23:16 copying the old state isn't atomic. 16:23:26 it's just a pointer? 16:23:31 oh copying 16:23:36 Fare: Good style evolves in natural languages as well, and in pretty much the same way: Experts decide on a better way of doing things, and others follow. 16:23:53 yes that's a problem in the reader and the writer changing it three times in a row? Or of what copying do you speak of? 16:23:56 beach: Ah, so we just know how to use idiomatic phrases. 16:23:57 vng: Are you listening? 16:24:07 sometimes the majority decides, not the experts 16:24:12 beach: but a native of a language knows when to break style :P 16:24:16 longkid: You need to know them all, but only produce the idiomatic ones. 16:24:23 hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has joined #lisp 16:24:41 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:24:41 beach: or masses of ignorants follow whichever rock star or TV comedian launches a new meme. 16:24:41 tcr: well, I assume the reader would copy the old state to a private string. You'd only need a single swap while the reader is still copying. 16:24:49 (or 4chan smartass) 16:24:50 beach: and using idiomatic phrases make us more professional? 16:24:59 LaPingvino: Only experts. Natives have nothing to do with it. There are naïve native users, and expert non-natives. 16:25:02 they make you more polite 16:25:08 longkid: absolutely! 16:25:36 Unless you swap the old state itself with a fresh string, but that dies with multiple readers (since one could then get an uninitialised state string). 16:25:42 beach: it may takes a lot of time 16:26:02 of course. 16:26:15 beach: some times "good style" is an artifact of older times 16:26:29 it's still good to know. 16:26:41 when learning a language, you try to learn the existing literature 16:26:56 even though it may already be old style by now. 16:27:33 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Quit: Backups are usually a good thing unless it's a sewer.] 16:28:01 lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 16:28:14 longkid: I think I mentioned 10000 hours. 16:28:32 LaPingvino: I think that is exactly what I said. 16:28:37 Fare: I'm a polyglot, I speak 9 languages :) 16:28:49 beach: you make me think of "10000 BC" movie 16:28:52 pkhuong: That's the patch as of now: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/hacks/sbcl/whostate.diff see change-whostate-state (writer) and thread-whostate (reader) in target-thread.lisp. 16:29:01 so I have a bit of a hang of learning languages and to get to the proper style of a language :) 16:29:07 1 hour is enough to get some basics, 10 hours is enough to become mildly dangerous, 100 hours is enough to be usefully dangerous, 1000 hours is... Well, you get the idea. 16:29:09 longkid: Sorry, never saw it! :( 16:29:26 LaPingvino: Are you talking about programming languages or natural ones? 16:29:41 nyef: Not bad! 16:29:53 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:53 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:29:53 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:29:55 beach: Not my idea, originally. 16:29:57 nixeagle [~user@Wikimedia/Nixeagle] has joined #lisp 16:30:03 LaPingvino, which? 16:30:24 beach: The basic idea ends up with a challenge, to do 1000 hours of whatever it is you're hoping to learn in a year. 16:30:29 longkid: This is also why you need to come to a place like #lisp, because there is no way I will have time to teach you all you need to know to become experts. 16:30:42 beach: I think you can apply most ideas to computer languages as well as spoken languages 16:30:44 you can be proficient and useful even before those 10000 hours -- but you better keep getting your code reviewed by professionals. 16:30:46 Which amounts to approximately a "part-time" job, but is still very doable. 16:30:58 gz_ [~gz@174.sub-75-193-121.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:08 LaPingvino: But you never told me the nature of the 9! :) 16:31:10 I speak Esperanto, Dutch, English, French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Ido and Toki Pona 16:31:17 Ah, impressive! 16:31:20 beach: Yes, I have to learn from many people here to become experts. 16:31:20 those are spoken languages 16:31:31 tcr: yeah, race condition... 16:31:44 I know people who've started writing useful code in Lisp after a week or two. Ugly unidiomatic code. But useful, and after cycles of review and fix, fit for the project. 16:31:48 LaPingvino: What is "Ido" and "Toki Pona"? 16:32:07 artificial languages 16:32:08 wha's Ido and Toki Pona? 16:32:10 beach: last week I try to install clbuild, sbcl, emacs on Ubuntu 16:32:17 Ido and Toki Pona are 2 other artificial languages 16:32:18 Fare: Sure, and the article by Hudak et all, suggests only a few hours to learn Haskell. 16:32:21 longkid, and? 16:32:29 -!- hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has quit [Quit: hybrid_mind] 16:32:32 LaPingvino: What do they look like? 16:32:59 beach: I said goodbye to VMWare and program Lisp on real Ubuntu 16:33:10 Fare: I think he is trying to show you that he is willing to learn new things. Be patient with you fellow compatriots. 16:33:23 longkid: Excellent! 16:34:19 Esperanto: Saluton! i tio estas frazo en Esperanto. 16:34:21 Ido: Saluto! Ico es frazo en Ido 16:34:21 Fare: One of the problems we had in the beginning was that the VN kids thought I wanted quick results so they used Windows and whatever environment they always did. I think longkid is saying that he got that part of the message by now. 16:34:23 toki pona: toki! ni li nimi mute kepeken toki pona 16:34:31 -!- gz_ [~gz@174.sub-75-193-121.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 16:34:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:34:53 tcr: with double buffering, you have much smaller critical sections (only swapping and copying). That should help a lot already. You could even overload the old state slot as an (unfair) spinlock to save space. 16:35:18 artificial languages have all the defects of natural languages, none of the advantages, plus additional defects of their own. 16:35:29 LaPingvino: I know Swedish, English, French (fluent), some German, and I am learning Vietnamese (my first non-European language). It is a lot of fun, but 10000 hours is a long way to go. 16:35:57 LaPingvino, what to you think of lojban in one sentence? why isn't it on the list, etc... 16:36:10 Fare: Interesting observation. I would need more evidence, but I am willing to believe you for now. 16:36:44 longkid: Perhaps this will fix your indentation? :) 16:37:06 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:37:07 vng: You haven't told me whether you are listening! 16:37:10 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.109.59] has left #lisp 16:37:50 TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.147.82.118.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:38:20 longkid: It is impressive to see the Master students of Bordeaux. They all have Ubuntu on their laptops. Industry is complaining that we don't teach them Windows. 16:38:20 beach: I've already modify .emacs 16:38:29 longkid: Excellent! 16:38:47 Fare, so you know many artificial languages and can list all their defects? :) i kinda tend to suppose without much knowledge that a carefully crafted artificial language can be better in some meanings of "better". 16:39:22 artificial languages don't have the compression of natural languages, or the body of literature or the number of speakers. Whatever regularity they may have would disappear if people started using them seriously. 16:39:24 beach: You know Mr.Nam? 16:39:43 longkid: I know one person with that name, and he is coming to Bordeaux this weel. 16:39:46 *week 16:40:07 beach: yes 16:40:13 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:40:21 longkid: He was here for his internship with my colleague and friend Marie. 16:40:34 longkid: I know him fairly well. 16:40:38 Fare, well, i don't think regularity is the main attractive thing of an atrificial language 16:40:45 beach, what is "industry" ? 16:40:56 attila_lendvai: It's the exclusivity, right? 16:40:58 that is complaining. 16:40:58 beach: he's also my teacher on POA TD course 16:41:12 longkid: I see! Is he good? :) 16:41:57 nyef, no... but learning english after hungarian gives me someone an idea what unintended ambiguity means... :) 16:42:08 s/me// 16:42:20 beach: he's so kind and enthusiastic. So is Prof. Baudon 16:42:31 Fare: In my case, the "representatives" of the software industry that by law participate in our councils of "perfectionnement" that each professionalizing (sorry about the Franglais) training program must have. 16:42:43 longkid: Good! 16:43:23 Fare: I think we have trained them though. I say "we teach neither Linux nor Windows" we teach programming, data structures, algorithms, you name it. 16:44:12 nyef, it's not fair to judge by me because hu is my mother tongue... but seeing the different qualities of en and hu makes me wonder what other (presumably better) qualities could be reached by a good design 16:44:15 beach: industry should be complaining that they aren't taught how to get along with *any* system. I can, ultimately, deal with probably anything modern, and I'm not that great (modern being anything from 70s and later) 16:44:27 Fare: Then we say "if you think they are not adapted to industry because industry is using windows, then perhaps industry should start using what our students use". 16:44:33 beach: Which subject does Mrs. Marie teach? 16:45:04 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:45:08 longkid: In VN, she teaches software architecture I think. 16:45:16 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@user-0c2h0f1.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 16:45:33 longkid: She was recently there, but you are not in Software Engineering, so you didn't see her. 16:45:56 longkid: Otherwise, she teaches bio-informatics. 16:46:04 Anyone can use Windows. If someone wants proficiency in a particular windows api... which, and why is it relevant? 16:46:09 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:46:30 beach: ah, I saw her. I became a student of Bordeaux. Do you know? 16:46:45 (certainly, if you are teaching an advanced games or GUI course, windows api can be useful to know) 16:47:00 p_l: "industry" complains about a lot of things, but ultimately, they are happy with our graduates. I take that as a "carte blanche" to teach them what I think is interesting and useful. 16:47:14 longkid: Ah, right! You transfered! 16:48:32 Wife says dinner is ready (it's her night), so I'll talk to y'all later. 16:48:38 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:48:57 beach: have a nice dinner! 16:48:59 beach: I like your laptop, so light and comfortable. Bringing a 2.5 kg notebook is terrible. 16:49:15 Fare: Thanks! 16:49:16 bbeecher [~user@74.72.202.58] has joined #lisp 16:49:29 longkid: now imagine lugging an Eurocom Mobile Workstation around. 16:49:31 longkid: Yeah, but it might be a piece of crap. 16:49:35 longkid: it's a good exercise! 16:49:39 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:43 *beach* really leaves now... 16:49:48 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:50:41 stassats: Oh so terrible. I feel bored whenever I have to take my lap outdoor 16:51:18 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:18 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:51:18 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:52:09 d'oh. i got my garys mixed up. 16:52:24 *Xach* thinks the joke fails as "King's remorse" 16:53:51 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-40-97.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:54:52 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:55:24 -!- longkid [~longkid@113.22.186.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:56:18 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:38 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:56:54 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 16:56:54 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:58:06 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-120-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:59:44 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:02:31 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:04:06 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has joined #lisp 17:04:53 hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has joined #lisp 17:06:22 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:32 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:07:02 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 17:07:19 erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:07:27 -!- erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:49 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:12:55 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:45 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:40 -!- Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-40-97.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:17:03 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:19:53 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316055951]] 17:20:18 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:24:42 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@user-0c2h0f1.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:06 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:27:33 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 17:28:29 -!- scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Client Quit] 17:28:55 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 17:30:01 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:30:17 Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:32 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:08 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 17:37:11 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:40:46 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:04 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@252.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:42:12 jmbr [~jmbr@252.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:44:41 pkhuong: I don't see why I need a lock for the swapping 17:44:48 'morning 17:44:50 -!- mik8y [~user@112.154.21.142] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:25 c|mell [~cmell@cpc5-acto1-0-0-cust620.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:53 hello 17:47:09 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 17:47:15 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@user-0c2h0f1.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 17:47:25 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:47:46 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:48:13 Greeting party? 17:48:33 greeting partyyyy!!1! 17:49:28 minion: memo for beach: I went to downstairs to eat. And now, I'm here. I see your conversation above. I understand it. 17:49:29 Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 17:49:42 Anyone know why climacs development dozed off? 17:49:48 beach: I'm here. 17:53:12 frodef: some years ago (2 or so?) I considered climacs, but found it to be extremely slow. 17:53:23 is that still true? 17:53:34 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:53:40 ehu: You upgraded your computer since then, didn't you? 17:54:07 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:56 palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:217:f2ff:fee7:72d7] has joined #lisp 17:54:58 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 17:55:34 slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:42 and sbcl progressed since then 17:58:35 dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has joined #lisp 17:59:28 drforr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:25 nyef: not the one on which I would run climacs. Or is there a Windows version of climacs now? 18:00:39 Hasn't there always been? 18:00:55 I thought it was tied to X 18:01:07 And can't you run X on windows? 18:01:34 only with support from commercial parties, no? 18:01:40 no 18:01:45 oh. good. 18:01:46 cygwin has an X11 server. 18:01:47 Commercial parties like... cygwin? 18:01:59 see xming 18:02:00 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632851.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 18:02:03 more commercial than cygwin 18:02:06 ok. 18:02:07 You might be thinking of eXceed though. 18:02:07 I'll do that. 18:02:18 *nyef* doesn't think of eXceed. Ever. 18:02:20 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-1509.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:29 Good plan. 18:02:47 *p_l* has used exceed in uni 18:03:15 "Nothing exceeds like excess?" 18:04:11 well, it works for the GLX apps we have, apparently 18:05:11 (which run on HP/UX, usually) 18:05:44 though I wonder if it will handle Allegro's ancient CLIM better than X.Org (on which it fails) 18:07:36 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:55 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:08:13 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 18:09:41 -!- hybrid_mind [~hybrid_mi@unaffiliated/hybrid-mind/x-023851] has quit [Quit: hybrid_mind] 18:09:51 carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.209] has joined #lisp 18:10:25 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 18:10:29 -!- bbeecher [~user@74.72.202.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:42 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:12:24 huh that's... weird 18:14:46 tcr: any other ideas about arglist highligting? because file-position doesn't work on pretty streams 18:15:33 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082DF06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:00 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-29.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:17:07 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082E782.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:17:11 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:32 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 18:18:07 could see how many implementations behave that way? I'd suggest to fix sbcl in that regard 18:18:56 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 18:18:58 i find that reasonable, because the point may be moved by the later output in the current logical block 18:19:57 hm 18:20:25 Can anyone explain me the (:interrupt-thread :no-nesting) / :nesting tests in threads.impure.lisp? 18:20:29 Ah, that was a nice dinner! 18:20:30 beach, memo from vng: I went to downstairs to eat. And now, I'm here. I see your conversation above. I understand it. 18:20:37 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:20:43 vng: Excellent! 18:21:14 beach: I understand many things you said 18:21:29 frodef: Nice to see you! How are things? 18:21:35 vng: Good! 18:21:51 vng: Now let's make the code excellent! 18:21:51 tcr: only ACL returns non-nil 18:22:11 beach: sure 18:22:36 vng: Though I think you somewhat already knew this, but for longkid it was news. 18:23:04 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:05 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.205.99] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:23:29 I remembered clearly about kaizen, and I have read your learning psychology 18:23:54 beach: I realize many things.. 18:24:00 vng: Yeah, that's what I mean. But longkid is new to all this. 18:24:22 beach: yeah 18:24:49 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:24:52 stassats: Remember what the body of with-highlighting prints (by making it print to a string-stream), then search for that string in the complete arglist string 18:25:01 vng: So when I tell *you* to fix some part of the code, you go "Oh, sure OK", whereas longkid goes "why? it works!". 18:25:03 stassats: that will works because parameter names cannot occur twice 18:25:32 indeed 18:25:47 try to rearrange the code 18:25:56 beach: ah...yes, i see 18:26:00 there's no need for a general print-decoded-arglist, we only need it go to a string anyway 18:26:41 stassats: you should also make with-highlighting expand to a flet rather than expanding the body twice 18:27:29 stassats: and add a comment that we use EQL at that point because that will work on both our number as well as keyword indices 18:27:46 vng: So longkid is a year behind you, and a year is about 1500 hours. So you have perhaps 8000 hours to go, and he has 9500 hours to go! :) 18:28:06 [to become experts] 18:28:31 (Again, you only need 1000 hours to become moderately skilled.) 18:28:42 luckily! 18:28:58 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.253.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:29:08 how do you count hours? 18:29:24 stassats: 1h is about 60 minutes! 18:29:25 In a monotonically increasing fashion? 18:29:32 beach: and one thing make me think a lot. It's the environment.. 18:29:45 beach: good to know! 18:29:58 vng: Are you talking about the software environment or of the human environment? 18:30:00 beach: Environment is also very important 18:30:18 stassats: Sorry! :) 18:30:51 *nyef* has spent somewhere between 10 and 100 hours (probably closer to 10) learning about biochemistry and cellular energy metabolism: He knows enough to draw the wrong conclusions. 18:31:27 beach: the environment's about us for working, studying, etc. 18:31:34 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:31:52 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:31:52 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.79.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:32:00 nyef: One also gets experienced about learning things. It probably takes an order of magnitude or two for my CS colleague to learn about the methods of archeology, than it takes for undergraduates in archeology to do the same. 18:32:14 Oh, probably. 18:32:29 vng: Right! So the PUF is essential, but so is #lisp for learning about Lisp. 18:32:59 beach: yes 18:33:35 judging by my blog, i started learning lisp at least in the September 2005 18:34:11 Does anybody know if ECL's "asdf:make-build :monolithic t" semantics changed significantly during last year? 18:34:23 vng: In case you haven't realized: by organizing this project, I am trying to create an environment that allows for some of my students, and ultimately for the VN software industry, to become more productive! 18:34:51 If memory serves, I have evidence that my first major lisp project was started in mid-to-late 2002. 18:35:03 The manual doesn't seem to betray any such changes.. 18:35:05 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 18:35:12 beach: hi, nice to "see" you too. everything fine here, busy as usual. 18:35:38 nyef: Mine goes back to 1981 or 1982. 18:35:42 beach: I see 18:36:04 frodef: Ah, but you are doing "useful" things these days as I recall! 18:36:16 Hrm. 31.5 minute build, they're getting slower. :-/ 18:36:38 beach: in the sense that they pay my mortgage, yes :) 18:37:06 frodef: Sure, but I take it in addition, you are doing some Lisp, right? 18:37:27 beach: I'm trying, but it's not much, I'm afraid. 18:37:48 beach: you're in vietnam? 18:38:40 vng: I hope some day you can meet some of the people here that I have met, like fe[nl]ix, frodef, Xof, Athas, mathrick, etc, etc, (I am not attempting a complete enumeration) and perhaps some of the ones I have not yet met, but that I would like to. 18:38:47 frodef: Not right now, no. 18:39:06 frodef: Oh, I thought this job was a Lisp job. No? 18:39:18 -!- Khisanth is now known as left 18:39:29 -!- left is now known as Khisanth 18:39:29 beach: I really hope so 18:40:05 vng: It's easy! First you get a PhD, then you get a job at a university which will pay you to go visit those people. 18:40:23 beach: yes, lisp job. 18:41:32 hugod [~hugod@2002:4651:216a:0:21e:c2ff:feaa:61a3] has joined #lisp 18:41:50 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.147.82.118.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: .•«UPP»•.] 18:41:54 btw I wrote an XML library that just might be interesting to others. PRINT-XML and READ-XML, basically transforming to/from lists/symbols/strings, using lisp packages for XML namespaces. 18:41:55 beach: ya. 18:42:06 vng: You would have liked one of my favorite utterings on the part of frodef when he lived in Tromsø. It was in febrary and I wrote something like "it's a wonder sunrise in Bordeaux right now" and he said something like "In a few weeks, the sun will rise here too"! 18:42:37 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-29.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:42:38 haha, Tromso. I've got an (irc) acquaintance from there :D 18:43:08 vng: But perhaps you don't know that there are people living in places where there is no sunrise for many months in a row. 18:43:28 *p_l* would like to go to Norway 18:43:41 p_l: Wonderful place! 18:43:43 beach: no, i don't. 18:44:31 vng: That would be one of those "don't try this at home". If you are not used to it, it can probably be very depressing! 18:44:33 beach: in tromsø it's just two months or so.. just enough that you're really happy to see the first rays of sun again each "spring" :) 18:45:14 frodef: ILTWYS "just". 18:45:34 beach: :) 18:45:35 vng: ILTWYS = "I love the way you say" 18:46:38 frodef: How is the family? 18:46:46 beach: the funny thing, it's easier in Norway for me to get all the paperwork for working that in UK, despite UK being in EU and Norway not 18:47:08 p_l: I am not at all surprised. 18:47:15 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-198-42.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:45 beach: very well, thanks. Aksel starting school this summer. 18:47:58 beach: bordeaux still good? 18:47:59 beach: UK is, pardon, fucking isolationist. 18:48:04 frodef: Wow! Time flies! 18:48:47 p_l: For some reason, a lot of people think of the UK as very special (despite their inferior social protection system), and so that gives them the reason to feel special as well. 18:49:04 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:36 p_l: Though there was a time when I would gladly trade Poland for Turkey. 18:50:00 I think, things are better now. 18:50:07 abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 18:50:21 *frodef* is watching "Collateral Murder", depressing. 18:50:42 *p_l* wouldn't care about collateral damage too much if he got to cleaning polish politics... 18:50:46 frodef: Luckily, our satellite TV system is not working ATM. 18:50:56 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 18:51:19 p_l: Your country has been pretty fucked up for a while. I think things are improving somewhat though. 18:52:11 p_l: And of course, you are not personally responsible for this. 18:52:48 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.82.220] has joined #lisp 18:52:51 beach: from what I read poland is doing very well 18:53:25 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:53:46 it's doing so well that some western polish people come over to east germany because it's cheaper there nowadays -- one would assume the opposite 18:55:06 now... who decided HAL/xkb/Gnome was a good thing? 18:55:45 heyhey [~512be18b@gateway/web/freenode/x-tjxkysuuqspwojwi] has joined #lisp 18:56:00 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-201-110.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:05 tcr: I sometimes feel we need to make a rather brutal cleaning of politics. not in the physical sense, but possibly through a cutoff so that people involved in any way before '89 don't get to run for position... 18:57:10 at the point, I'm giving it 50y before things start getting normal. And in that time, we might get a second industrial revolution which will botch stuff further (nanotech!) 18:57:30 frodef, it gets more depressing, the more you read Michel Chossudovsky 18:58:41 tic: The entire mess was proposed as a way to get linux at-least-parity with windows hardware configurability for end-users. If I recall correctly, one of the primary instigators was Havok Pennington (sp?) 18:58:45 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:27 -!- palter_ [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:217:f2ff:fee7:72d7] has quit [Quit: palter_] 19:00:08 nyef: what's the entire mess? :) 19:00:15 tcr: Sure, they have been doing an excellent job of ultra-right-wing, christian, anti-muslim, etc politics, if that's the way you want Europe to go. But it's over with the ratification of the Lisbon treaty. 19:00:17 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@5ED161A7.cable.ziggo.nl] has left #lisp 19:00:36 they're just pursuing "every problem in programming can be solved by another level of indirection" 19:00:50 tcr: But that's OT, so I think I'll stop there. 19:00:57 Poland is gettting a bit scary, certainly 19:01:05 not that was ever entirely un-scary 19:01:35 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:41 bah I wish mega1 was here 19:01:52 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2-dev] 19:02:40 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:50 "Any code of your own that you haven't looked at for six or more months, might as well have been written by someone else." 19:08:56 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:09:16 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:45 and until you've looked at it, it's in the superposition? 19:10:21 stassats: right! 19:11:49 heyhey: yeah... for the first half hour... 19:12:09 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.180.146] has joined #lisp 19:12:48 beach: actually, there's little anti-muslim stuff, and the ultra-right-wing is really warped... you see, it's hard to say which side is really "left" or "right" in poland... bloody revisitionist idiots, that they are. 19:13:12 I'm ultra-middle. 19:13:16 p_l: I understand things can be complicated. 19:14:17 vng: This is late for you, isn't it? I assume you are at home? 19:14:19 pix4, right in the middle between right and far-right? 19:14:36 beach: yes, I'm at home 19:14:57 Ah, political definitions; always a little more difficult than you'd think 19:15:04 -!- mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:11 deepfire: I*m not sure what you're up to. btw I was just kidding. 19:15:46 tic: xkb is okay. Gnome started copying Mac philosophy in 2.0. Hal was a good idea badly executed, especially the means. D-Bus is slowly becoming something close to COM 19:15:52 nyef, he has a total lack of taste in design. 19:16:01 p_l, everything about xkb is horrible! 19:16:37 you forgot xrandr :) 19:16:39 p_l, especially when combined with hal. auto-reset my keymap when I hotplug the keyboard? Oh yes. No way of giving a friggin path to a xkb file in my xorg.conf? Why would you! 19:17:10 tic: I daresay that compared to HAL, PolicyKit (YUCK!) and ConsoleKit (YUCK Again!), it's nothing. Especially since the problems you mentioned are actually caused by HAL, not XKB. 19:17:14 only way to add a xkb layout/variation is to modify at *least* five files. 19:18:02 p_l, XKB is a chapter in itself. Why can't I just have a ~/.xkbmap that gets loaded, like I did with ~/.Xmodmap? That would be far too easy. We need to obfuscate everything. 19:18:05 also, makers of PolicyKit and similar forget that they are running on system designed to be an unixoid. 19:18:21 *tic* moves away from the keyboard before breaking more rules of decency. 19:18:27 tic: oh, but I have just that kind of setup. I just had to disable bloody HAL from X.Org 19:18:39 ichernetsky: :) 19:18:50 tic: i meant 19:19:13 (which is the default setting, which causes X.Org to ignore everything in config about input. Nice to reload xserver after upgrade and find yourself without input) 19:19:24 *cmm* has stopped thinking of himself as reasonably unix-savvy after taking a look at xkb and udev 19:19:31 despair! 19:20:00 abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has joined #lisp 19:20:08 there's no hiding from crushing complexity, now is there 19:20:12 breakage of xmodmap is truly sad :( 19:20:16 cmm, I actually do have my own xkb map. polish_dvorak.xkb, with a nice xkb_keymap and all. But where the heck do I put the file? I can't. It's split up into a zillion different files which are all put together by "rules" and evdev. Because the xkb/keymap stuff is deprecated. 19:20:20 udev is simple. Hal isn't. 19:20:23 cmm: just pour more indirections! 19:20:43 -!- abugosh [~Adium@206.225.102.84] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:46 tic: why not just put the right commands in .Xsession? 19:20:54 cmm, are they steaming piles of fail, or just horribly complex beasts? 19:21:05 tic: or do you use Gnome or similar, which loves to ignore such stuff? 19:21:09 cmm: both. 19:21:12 -!- heyhey [~512be18b@gateway/web/freenode/x-tjxkysuuqspwojwi] has left #lisp 19:21:17 s/cmm/Fare/ 19:21:27 tic: How are things with you? 19:21:29 tic: it so happens that my particular keyboard-related needs happen to be well-served by the GUI configurator and existing keymaps. lucky me, I guess 19:22:01 p_l, I do. But: I switched to use xsession instead of gnome-session, and sourced some environment variables in ~/.xsession. You think they survived, even though I did an "exec gnome-session" there? Nopes. Or rather, *some* variables survived, but not the important ones, like LD_LIBRARY_PATH and PATH. 19:22:10 vng: tic is another great guy I had the opportunity to meet! 19:22:17 Fare: udev seems decent, actually, just scary at first sight. as for xkb, I have no inclination to find out :) 19:22:24 tic: that's what you get for using Gnome. It might sound snobby, but seriously... 19:22:34 beach: ya! 19:22:37 beach, thanks. :-) Yeah, things are okay, I guess. You? Overworked as always? 19:22:54 p_l, and I don't even _use_ gnome! 19:22:58 cmm: udev *looks* scary. But it's very simple in retrospect. At least compared to HAL, where anything that might be simple is lost in the syntax 19:23:11 tic: then why are you starting gnome-session? 19:23:24 tic: Of course! :) 19:23:27 p_l, 'cause you get some things for free, like screensavers and so on. 19:23:51 p_l, but it doesn't matter, it seems. whatever environment variables I set in ~/.xsession, they don't survive to the process I exec at the end. 19:24:30 but hey, whenever you despair after fighting with linux desktop, just play around with compiz a little while and forget all your problems :) 19:24:47 *Xach* struggles to find the Lisp angle 19:24:55 *Fare* starts gnome-settings-daemon just because some programs get their fonts wrong otherwise. 19:24:55 sorry! 19:25:04 tic: it means the process is resetting them - I use only xsession and I have no problems, I could publish my config somewhere... but it's getting way off-topic 19:25:06 Xach, EXACTLY! 19:25:32 *Xach* is on the verge of writing a parenscript-style thing for his roku's brightscript language 19:25:38 LeoDioxide [~bob@c-68-59-10-186.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:55 how do I check if something is of type string? 19:25:57 Xach: now THAT sounds interesting... 19:26:04 *Fare* wonders if he has any machine with cmucl still, in the light of the recent bug report of asdf on cmucl... 19:26:11 ska` [~user@124.157.253.207] has joined #lisp 19:26:11 LeoDioxide: (stringp something) is one way 19:26:19 oh, hah, I was doing string-p 19:26:21 LeoDioxide: look at stringp, and the string dictionary in the hyperspec 19:26:34 pix4: i like the developer kit, and it was easy to get a simple application going, but the language is not so nice to use. 19:26:44 thanks 19:26:57 Fare: I can't do it now, but I've got a lot of machines at uni with CMUCL preinstalled 19:27:09 p_l: can you try this? (PATHNAME-MATCH-P #P"/ebs/source/upload/net/common-lisp/alexandria/package.sse2f" #P"home:.cache/common-lisp/cmu-20a__20a_-linux-x86/**/*.*") 19:27:22 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:27:47 LeoDioxide: CLHS contains chapters, and each chapter has a dictionary; so there's a dictionary with all the string-related operators; also check out CLHS' permutated symbol index 19:27:55 LeoDioxide: Try the Common Lisp Hyper Spec! 19:28:02 LeoDioxide: Also get acquainted to APROPOS 19:28:07 minion: tell LeoDioxide about CLHS 19:28:07 LeoDioxide: please see CLHS: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 19:28:21 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 19:29:46 thanks 19:29:46 Xach: well... it's a shame that parenscript only got one "back-end". 19:30:25 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 19:30:29 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 19:30:44 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:52 Fare: right now not, but I can try setting up some testing framework later (since it appears some course is using CMUCL) 19:31:27 it would be nice if there was some kind of "kit" for making parenscript-like stuff. 19:31:52 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:10 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:26 p_l: if you can make test lisp=cmucl and see if it works, send me errors 19:33:53 AND, if it fails, try replacing all calls to (user-homedir-pathname) with (truename (user-homedir-pathname)) 19:34:44 p_l: on the other hand I believe that the output of parenscript wasn't so clean and human-readable if it'd support many beck-ends. 19:34:52 back-ends even 19:37:46 pix4: I'm not saying about making a parenscript -> multiple translator, just a set of building blocks to use when you need something *like* parenscript, not necessarily with the same syntax, even. 19:38:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:38:51 Can I get more Common Lisp speakers for the BLM? 19:39:01 Got one for May, but not that many of them. 19:39:02 blm? 19:39:33 ah. bordeaux. 19:39:33 Boston Lisp Meeting 19:39:34 p_l: I'd get more kicks out of code that compiles to many different languages without the need to make several compilers. 19:39:53 boston. that's a bit out of my region 19:40:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-20-0-213-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:40:48 pix4: sometimes it is however against what you need to achieve. For example, I often wish to recreate something akin to LinJ, but for few different languages. The code that I can feed to parenscript wouldn't fit 19:42:04 p_l: I see the point you're making 19:42:51 pix4: for example, JS doesn't need type information. 19:43:21 -!- reb` [~user@nat/google/x-wfdjsbvityveuboa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43:27 while C# or Java might be mightily offended by their lack 19:43:51 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:22 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:44:36 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.9] has joined #lisp 19:44:46 _8david`: ping 19:44:51 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 19:45:09 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-11-193.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:45:18 -!- dullard [~user@94-193-162-78.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:45:24 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 19:46:52 p_l: if performance isn't much of an issue one could pull out some cheap tricks to just get it running. 19:46:56 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:48:01 bad_alloc [~marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-216-020.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:00 <_8david`> fe[nl]ix: hi 19:50:45 _8david`: do you have some time for a hemlock/iolib talk ? 19:50:59 luis: here? 19:51:10 <_8david`> fe[nl]ix: go on 19:51:23 fe[nl]ix: maybe you know, too, I think luis once extracted sbcl's grovel-docstring-to-texinfo, do you know where it is? 19:51:56 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:52:05 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-208-140.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 19:52:06 tcr: it's called texinfo-docstrings 19:52:28 -!- bad_alloc [~marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-216-020.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:52:36 _8david`: are you happy with the API of iolib.syscalls ? 19:52:41 Is a call-next-method legal inside a primary method? 19:52:45 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 19:52:52 _8david`: can you think of improvements ? 19:53:13 balooga1: AFAIK it depends on the method combination 19:53:15 pix4: it wouldn't generate human-like code, which parenscript generates rather well for JS 19:53:35 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-162-33.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 19:54:35 fe[nl]ix: thanks! 19:54:56 balooga1: see next-method-p 19:55:00 fe[nl]ix: I'm just looking at Rainer Joswig's pic http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/clos1.jpg 19:55:00 clhs next-method-po 19:55:00 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for next-method-po. 19:55:03 err 19:55:06 p_l: honestly, I don't care about the readability of the output. I'm also fine with assembly-like output. 19:55:07 clhs next-method-p 19:55:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_next_m.htm 19:56:23 -!- LeoDioxide [~bob@c-68-59-10-186.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:56:37 <_8david`> fe[nl]ix: hmm, is there much that can go wrong in an API that provides syscalls directly? 19:57:16 -!- balooga1 is now known as balooga 19:57:16 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has left #lisp 19:57:25 p_l: original source in comment lines would suffice as far as Im concerned 19:57:38 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75644f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:46 <_8david`> An issue I'm seeing is Windows portability. Obviously, isys on Unix and Windows will be distinct packages will no overlap. But for Hemlock I'm interested in higher-level functionality, which could be portable. 19:57:48 francogrex [~user@238.35-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:58:04 drewc: thanks. 19:58:16 Madsy [~madman@port-213-160-6-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:16 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-22-192.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:58:16 -!- Madsy [~madman@port-213-160-6-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Changing host] 19:58:16 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 19:58:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:58:39 <_8david`> At the moment things like dired use isys directly in some parts, I think. And that's not the right level of abstraction. 19:58:51 _8david`: for example, ATM the syscalls that receive or return char* use the SSTRING conversion 19:59:03 gz__ [~gz@133.sub-75-192-91.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:04 brown [~user@nat/google/x-cbwtcmcpyciheqrx] has joined #lisp 19:59:08 -!- bgs000 is now known as bgs100 19:59:27 maden [~maden@dsl-148-249.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 19:59:32 -!- brown is now known as Guest84580 19:59:34 which interprets #\Null as an escape character 20:00:11 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:00:16 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-91-178.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:00:20 that may only be a problem on systems that don't enforce some Unicode encoding 20:00:35 i.e. not OSX or Windows, but Linux and perhaps *BSDs too 20:00:42 dullard [~user@93-96-113-8.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:00:45 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:01:24 _8david`: and yes, I'm planning to rid dired.lisp of direct use of syscalls 20:01:43 but that means that I have to add the high-level functionality to iolib.pathnames and iolib.os 20:01:45 _8david`: I guess that if you fix whatever might possibly go wrong with string conversions etc, you can safely use syscalls directly, assuming you make sure to generate them correctly. 20:02:06 bad_alloc [~marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-216-020.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:12 -!- gz__ [Clozure@clozure-D99889A.sub-75-192-91.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 20:02:13 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:02:17 for example, I recall something about Linux being inconsistent in syscalls between arches. 20:02:22 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.180.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:02:32 <_8david`> fe[nl]ix: can you point to a syscall for which null bytes could be a problem? 20:02:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:02:39 <_8david`> fe[nl]ix: cool 20:03:03 hello, how do i make a function print itself into a file? it seem s straightforward enough, but no matter what i google, i can't find anything. 20:03:10 -!- HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:03:24 do i have to store the function in a string before or is there a more elegant way? 20:03:24 -!- francogrex [~user@238.35-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:03:44 -!- gz__ [~gz@133.sub-75-192-91.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:03:51 _8david`: I'm not sure, I was asking if you can think of such a case 20:03:55 bad_alloc: for normal development, you start by writing the function in a file first, and then send it to lisp. 20:06:48 Xach: yes but how to automate that process? 20:07:25 bad_alloc: I use slime and C-c C-c to send functions to Lisp. 20:07:35 bad_alloc: other environments tend to have something similar. 20:07:55 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52?pli=1 has a strategy for an editor that doesn't know anything special about Lisp. 20:09:06 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:09:12 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:09:21 <_8david`> fe[nl]ix: hmm. Certainly not filenames, since those can't have zero in them. 20:09:22 Xach: i can't help but ask: do you think i plan something harmful with a function writing itself into a file, or did you misunderstand? 20:09:48 <_8david`> The few cases where syscalls can deal with byte arrays as opposed to zero-terminated strings, it's usually glaringly obvious from the function signatures that they take a length argument. 20:10:14 _8david`: also, instead of using regular vectors and with-pointer-to-vector-data, you could use http://gitorious.org/iolib/static-vectors 20:11:07 bad_alloc: It reminds me of someone who has strayed from a paved road into the woods who is asking for help cutting down all the pesky trees in the way. Sometimes it's better to return to the road. 20:11:29 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 20:11:49 bad_alloc: what do you need it for? 20:11:55 -!- lukjad007 is now known as lukjad86 20:12:13 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:15 i plan to write a program, that writes itself into a file 20:12:26 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:12:35 cat $0 > $1 ? 20:12:37 a quine? 20:12:38 bad_alloc: if you write that program in a file to start, it can be very, very short! 20:12:44 it may seem (and be) quite stupid, but I#m just playing with lisp a bit 20:12:49 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:49 bad_alloc: if you want to portably serialize functions to file, then you'd probably need a defun wrapper-macro saving the symbols list in a hash table, so you can easily print/use that list afterwards, perhaps search for memoization and reflectivity examples for ideas 20:12:57 anyone ever have trouble with slime not putting the cursor where it belongs (on-deck at the new prompt) and instead being somewhere in the scrollback? 20:13:01 stassats: is that the name for such a program? 20:13:09 bad_alloc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine_(computing) 20:13:44 stassats: thanks, that's what i have in mind 20:14:08 bad_alloc: remember that the title of shortest quine is already taken in an irrevocable way 20:14:28 an empty program? 20:14:30 p_l: i'm not ambitious :) 20:14:32 stassats: yes 20:14:39 bad_alloc: It's more common for people asking a question like yours to ask it because they have started writing lengthy Lisp programs directly in the REPL, and they want to be able to save their work. 20:15:00 There are better ways to save your work, in general. 20:15:03 you can have a program of negative size 20:15:21 stassats: there's that little problem of size being an unsigned integer 20:15:38 <_8david`> fe[nl]ix: oh yes, I should take a look at static-vectors 20:15:42 Xach: i've already found out about copy and paste. it was really a quine attempt 20:15:47 bad_alloc: that lisp compilers usually compile your code and then throw it away 20:15:50 p_l: just bend the rules 20:15:52 sorry for bothering you, but i didn't have the word 20:15:58 <_8david`> is there a technical reason it doesn't have a clisp backend? 20:16:33 _8david`: clisp doesn't support static vectors natively nor with-pointer-to-vector-data 20:17:32 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 20:17:43 <_8david`> ah, too bad. I know clisp doesn't have (and its maintainers don't want itto have) with-pointer-to-vector-data, but I wasn't certain about how static-vectors fits in there. 20:18:06 PART [lisp] [thanks for the pointer to quines, i'll see into that] 20:18:23 <_8david`> the FFI:MEMORY-AS stuff used in cl+ssl doesn't help? 20:18:32 -!- vng [~user@123.20.83.155] has quit [Quit: have to go to sleep. It's quite late here. G'night #lisp.] 20:18:41 -!- bad_alloc [~marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-216-020.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: You shoot yourself in somebody else's foot.] 20:18:59 -!- pookleblinky [~pooklebli@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:20:19 _8david`: let me see 20:21:27 prxq [~mommer@f051015092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:39 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.253.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:23 _8david`: no. the point of static-vectors is to be able to use the CL sequence functions on the buffer itself 20:22:29 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:22:40 instead of duplicating them for foreign pointers 20:23:49 hi 20:23:57 prxq: hello 20:24:20 anyone here uses sbcl on freebsd? 20:24:26 hi fe[nl]ix 20:24:29 I do 20:24:33 oh :-) 20:24:34 sometimes 20:24:48 FreeBSD-in-Vmware, to test iolib 20:24:52 fe[nl]ix: do you use it with threads enabled? 20:25:20 (the default build does not enable threads) 20:25:23 I have no idea 20:25:39 I use the default build configuration from the freebsd ports 20:25:39 -!- Borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:25:48 let me check 20:25:53 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:25:59 <_8david`> okay. the use of REPLACE on the result of memory-as led me to think there was a usable trick here perhaps. Guess not. 20:26:36 hmm 20:26:50 let me see 20:27:30 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:28:08 -!- tompa [~tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has left #lisp 20:28:14 tompa [~tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:38 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:30:06 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 20:30:59 prxq: it seems that threads are enabled 20:31:41 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:31:49 fe[nl]ix: aha... so it is in *features*. The one I got using pkg_add -r sbcl did not have sb-threads in it 20:32:10 fe[nl]ix: which version is it? I have (in freebsd 8.0) 1.0.30 20:32:28 I'm using 7.2 with sbcl 1.0.31 20:32:34 but I haven't updated in a while 20:32:38 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:14 its maintaner(niimi satoshi IIRC) adds the latest releases to the ports pretty fast 20:33:45 fe[nl]ix: do you use sbcl on freebsd using slime? Or do you just run some tests? 20:34:05 caarkh [~cark@d51530E03.static.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:34:47 if I find bugs, I connect with slime and debug 20:35:28 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 20:35:31 -!- caarkh [~cark@d51530E03.static.telenet.be] has left #lisp 20:36:04 fe[nl]ix: ok. Thanks for the info! 20:36:38 sbcl works pretty well on freebsd 20:38:15 HEAD seems to fail a number of tests for prxq 20:40:30 such as ? 20:40:58 Does anyone know why genesis documents target-space-alignment as needing to be at least (ash 1 descriptor-low-bits)? 20:41:07 Timer tests, wasn't it? 20:41:44 Is there a way to figure out why/why not/if at all sbcl is tail call optimizing? 20:42:10 reading the disassemble is a way 20:42:27 herbieB: I don't know about why/why not, but reading the output from DISASSEMBLE or a trace-file would tell you if at all. 20:42:31 for the "if" part 20:42:35 sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy, there is SB-C::MERGE-TAIL-CALLS 20:42:43 uhm? 20:42:58 stassats: Doesn't help if your case turns out to not be a tail call after all. 20:43:01 -!- prxq [~mommer@f051015092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:43:20 nyef: but that might answer why it's not optimizing them if it's disabled 20:43:41 Aha! descriptor-intuit-gspace relies on target-space-alignment. 20:44:03 Yeah, merge tail calls is there 20:44:28 And I'm pretty sure passing down an accumulator should make it a tail call 20:44:37 prxq [~mommer@f051015092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:45:02 accumulator has nothing to do with it 20:45:10 being a tail call does 20:46:05 stassats: Well, sure, but a call of the type (defun some-func (lst acc) (if (not lst) acc (some-func (some-operation-on lst) (some-operation-on acc)))) should tail call 20:47:21 Anything in disassemble that will give me hints as to whether it's tail calling or not? 20:48:06 Yeah, actually. Does it JMP or CALL the target function? Is there a return site after the jmp/call? 20:48:33 does the manual help on that? 20:48:43 (Trace files are more obvious: Is the call vop one of the TAIL-CALL-* vops?) 20:49:05 It definitely does not jump back to the entry point 20:49:08 fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:49:18 It jumps to a place mid function 20:49:52 Trace files are interesting to look at, by the way. You can learn a lot from them. 20:49:54 insert-debug-catch affects it also 20:50:20 ... We really ought to do something about insert-debug-catch. It's not like we don't know more-or-less how. 20:50:25 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:50:32 I am unfamiliar with trace files at all 20:51:02 :trace-file option for compile-file 20:51:19 Mmm. Generate one, open it up, and have a look for the assembly code for your function. 20:51:27 Or the IR2. 20:51:28 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:38 Ahhh, interesting. I'm actually not doing this in compilation. All at the REPL 20:51:45 (though optimize is set appropriately) 20:52:03 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:52:12 how appropriately? 20:52:23 speed 3 space 3 20:52:36 erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:52:38 Such that the ouptut of compiler policy has tail call in there as yes 20:52:54 tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 20:52:58 can't you just paste your function in question? 20:52:58 Greetings, lispers 20:53:43 Uhm, sure 20:53:54 -!- bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:54:32 herbieB pasted "Stack overflow" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97361 20:54:44 Though i am seeing that VOB-TAIL-CALL in the trace 20:54:48 Interesting 20:54:54 ]tr ru-en mimicria 20:55:33 The indentation, it makes my eyes burn! 20:55:46 Oh hush 20:55:49 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:56:09 what an inefficient sieve! 20:56:16 It really is 20:56:18 But that's ok 20:56:37 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:45 The real question is whether this tail calls and if so, why does the stack still blow out 20:57:01 It *looks* like it shoudl tail call from the way the trace file loosk 20:57:05 herbieB: If you cleaned up the indentation, I'm sure it would run 2x as fast. 20:57:13 bipt [~bpt@cl-851.chi-02.us.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:16 balooga: Hahahaha 20:57:29 -!- erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 20:57:41 and renamed lst to list 20:57:51 kruth [~chatzilla@kruth.org] has joined #lisp 20:57:53 Yeah yeah, one of the things about using vim is the coloring scheme :P 20:57:59 Having yellow colored variables annoy me 20:58:14 Thank god I don't actually work at a lisp shop, or I'd be beaten or something 20:58:28 0_o 20:59:07 herbieB: We'll send the code police around soon. 20:59:31 (... horrible thought: The Macro Hygiene Police.) 20:59:33 There's much worse than that in my code base. I make liberal use of reader macros :) 20:59:48 With recursive code, a stack overflow suggests that you are not terminating correctly. 21:00:15 tmh: Don't worry, I am. The seive runs fine for smaller values :) 21:00:53 Is there a reason to get a control stack guard error without it being a recursion overflow? 21:00:55 herbieB: Put a breakpoint in before the return in the base case and do a backtrace? 21:01:04 Sure, if you're doing D-X allocation. 21:01:36 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 21:02:09 Okay, that's the symbol-as-value case for write-wordindexed sorted, nwo 21:02:12 nyef: Yeah, only 9 deep when I run it with a smaller list 21:02:25 now I just have to figure out the case for load-time-values. 21:02:34 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:02:39 herbieB: "only" 9 deep on a suppsoedly-tail-recursive function? 21:02:57 nyef: Well, I'm running it with something shoudl cause it to recurse 100 tiems 21:02:59 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:03:18 And the 9 includes all the repl stack frames as well 21:03:21 Ah. 21:03:24 So I guess only 1 deep when I remove that stuff 21:03:38 Okay, that's less frightening. 21:03:44 Is delete recursive in some way? 21:03:53 delete-if, I mean 21:04:04 You're getting a stack overflow because it's spelled sieve, not seive, and even your implementation is vomiting on your code. 21:04:07 Not that should make any difference. 21:04:13 :-P 21:04:16 Heh. 21:04:17 tmh: Hahahaha 21:04:21 tmh: Yeah yeah yeah 21:04:30 THIS is why I ask general questions, not put my code up :P 21:04:36 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:05:03 So in my crummy sieve, I'm passing in al ist of a million elements 21:05:12 Ah, I'm actually trying to figure it out, I just have to throw in some humor occasionally to keep from scratching out my eyes. 21:05:30 This is how I'm calling it: (seive (mapint #'identity 100000 2)) 21:05:31 i've found a bug! (SEIVE '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)) => (1) 21:05:42 stassats: Indeed, I cheat by startinga t 2 21:06:07 herbieB: Have you tried mapint by itself? 21:06:13 i usually cheat by using bit-vectors 21:06:20 tmh: Hahahaha 21:06:23 tmh: Oh that's awesome 21:06:25 tmh: Good catch 21:06:42 I'm serious, is it causing the stack overflow? 21:06:53 tmh: I know, that's why I said good catch 21:06:57 because I am a moron 21:07:02 And it is indeed doing that 21:07:20 *tmh* pats himself on the back. 21:07:59 synthasee [~synthase@adsl-220-161-36.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:50 Though I'm probably going to rewrite the sieve to be better now that I have hit a case where I need it to be :P 21:09:54 Anyway, thanks all :) 21:10:12 i can share my sieve, if you want 21:10:21 stassats: That kind of defeats the point :) 21:10:32 *herbieB* is doing the euler project 21:10:53 i take it as you don't 21:11:23 Hm? 21:11:34 you don't want, i mean 21:11:45 Silly movie idea: "Leonhard Euler's Day Off". 21:11:51 Yeah, but thanks 21:11:55 I'll do it right this time 21:12:06 No, don't! Do it -left-! 21:12:23 (After all, that's kindof the point of a sieve, isn't it?) 21:12:24 herbieB: i can only advice on using a bit-vector for a sieve and a vector for primes 21:12:30 instead of lists 21:12:42 instantrimshot.com 21:12:47 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-155-194-54.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:01 stassats: Oh, sure, but I'm not going to get aywhere near that refined 21:13:04 herbieB: Plus, you need to do a literature search, there are a couple papers on prime sieves that are invaluable. 21:13:13 On only one of the problems have I had to drop out of lists into something more efficient 21:13:28 herbieB: it's actually very simple 21:13:59 Sure, I did do it,a fter all. The most annoying part is that nth and aref have reverse arguments 21:14:05 herbieB: 'The Genuine Sieve of Eratosthenes' by 'Melissa E. O' Neill 21:14:17 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:14:27 I wonder. If you could optionally refer to lexical variables as (var x) (like you can do (function x)), would it be reasonable to allow ((var my-function) 1 2 3)? 21:14:34 herbieB: 'Prime Seives Using Binary Quadratic Forms' by 'A. O. L. Atkin' and 'D. J. Bernstein' 21:15:01 tmh: i lack math to understand that one 21:15:10 The Atkin and Bernstein paper is the most important, but the O'Neill paper is enlightening as well. 21:15:45 stassats: My math is weak as well, but I've been able to struggle through it by reading and re-reading it while trying to implement it. 21:16:42 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 21:17:11 sykopomp: sure that's how it's in Scheme 21:17:33 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:55 tcr: well, I'm just trying to make sure I'm not brainfarting as to any possible problems with allowing that. 21:18:22 only that scheme doesn't need function and var 21:18:37 linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 21:18:53 stassats: sure, but I kinda like lisp-n 21:19:21 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 21:20:29 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:07 -!- schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:22:27 schmx [~marcus@c83-254-196-101.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:22:27 -!- schmx [~marcus@c83-254-196-101.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 21:22:27 schmx [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 21:23:03 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:07 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:30:00 pookleblinky [~pooklebli@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:50 -!- kruth [~chatzilla@kruth.org] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 21:38:12 I need to make it a point to work on Project Euler at least once per week. 21:40:19 -!- pix4 [~pixel@212.60.130.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:41:47 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: zzz] 21:43:13 -!- tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 21:44:25 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:25 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.180] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:48:10 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:22 -!- turbo24prg [~turbo24pr@turbolent.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:51:45 pix4 [~pixel@212.60.130.33] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.82.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:55:22 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp 21:57:47 -!- hugod [~hugod@2002:4651:216a:0:21e:c2ff:feaa:61a3] has quit [Quit: hugod] 21:59:46 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@60-241-1-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:01:03 attila_lendvai_ [~ati@89.135.196.216] has joined #lisp 22:02:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.207.212] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:02:44 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:40 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:05:59 -!- pix4 [~pixel@212.60.130.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:07:38 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@69.38.240.242] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 22:07:40 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200.234.208.50] has joined #lisp 22:07:49 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200.234.208.50] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:10:33 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 22:21:28 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:17 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:52 so, anyone have a fav gui toolkit for cl? i've been using ltk but its really rough... just trying to make a large scrollable canvas and draw clickable items on it 22:28:39 i have mcclim 22:29:18 Demosthenes: would be mcclim if it wasn't so rough in places (or at least that's the feeling I sometimes get) or if the docs were easier to get. Right now I'm using docs from Allegro to learn :/ 22:29:46 (since Qt et al lack CLIM-style listener widget and commands) 22:29:54 i used examples to learn 22:30:39 p_l: and presentations, or don't they? 22:30:56 stassats: well, I don't really need presentations at the moment 22:31:27 Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has joined #lisp 22:31:28 btw, any example of displaying JPEGs in McCLIM? 22:31:58 it's the same as displaying png 22:31:58 p_l: Maybe in closure? 22:33:23 load mcclim-jpeg-bitmaps.asd, (draw-pattern* stream (make-pattern-from-bitmap-file "file.jpg" :format :jpg) 20 20) 22:33:56 SBCL genesis: 12 files. Largest is 757 lines. Smallest is 65. Most of the rest are either around 150 lines or in the 300s. 22:34:35 ltk's pretty well documented, but i keep getting hung up on lisp -> tk bugs, in the translation. 22:35:02 stassats: thanks 22:35:30 *p_l* looks at how he is going to have a giant "with-output-record-options" block 22:35:39 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:52 adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:04 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:38:23 Is it possible to use 'apply' a function with keyword arguments? 22:38:35 yes 22:39:27 so (apply #'f (list x y :k-arg k)) 22:39:31 should work? 22:40:21 do you have any reason to believe it shouldn't? 22:40:55 BrianRice` [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:55 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632851.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:41:09 I typed it incorrectly into the REPL 22:41:22 bonehead error, sorry 22:41:25 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 22:42:42 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:43:03 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:16 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:43:22 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:26 -!- Elench [~jarv@unaffiliated/elench] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:34 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:43:34 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 22:45:23 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:51:04 go nyef, go! 22:52:07 Next part is either some minor cleanups or laying a package structure over the whole thing. Not sure which. 22:53:49 attila_lendvai: does nyef wait for your command to talk now ? 22:54:37 *attila_lendvai* is supporting nyef on his lonely fight against complexity in genesis 22:55:57 genesis? 22:56:06 Why does lisp make me happy? 22:56:13 ur easy 22:56:19 *stassats* tries to find a way to know the final position of a string printed by a pretty printer 22:56:28 no sane ideas... 22:56:59 JuanDaugherty: in the process of bootstrapping sbcl 22:57:14 it's just another name for that process? 22:57:22 It's one step in that process. 22:57:36 Genesis is the bit that binds all of the cross-compiled fasls into an embryonic core image. 22:58:03 clisp has menorah, sbcl has Genesis 22:58:09 i c the implementation generation step formerly known as nothing 22:58:30 Been known as genesis since... well... before SBCL. 22:58:52 But what it's called in any given implementation rather depends on its heritage. 22:59:21 pix4 [~pixel@212.60.130.33] has joined #lisp 22:59:44 ah 23:00:24 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:00:29 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:01:59 -!- palter [~palter@2002:4b44:b1e1:0:21b:63ff:fe96:e1ff] has quit [Quit: palter] 23:02:40 http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/shortlog/refs/heads/radical-refactoring/genesis if anyone wants to look at what I have so far, btw. 23:06:22 -!- cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 23:07:24 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 23:10:34 -!- upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:39 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:20 cmsimon [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has joined #lisp 23:12:02 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:34 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has joined #lisp 23:16:31 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:17:33 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:18:08 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 23:18:20 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-11-193.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 23:20:23 -!- nicktastic [~nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:21:53 bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:57 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-162-33.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:27:10 bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:50 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@gw-fr-vauban.inka-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:29:25 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:29:25 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:31:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 23:31:09 comer653 [~62daa78a@gateway/web/freenode/x-nokcqmuwhdmxtayq] has joined #lisp 23:31:48 -!- bigjust` is now known as bigjust 23:31:59 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@c-69-136-131-100.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 23:32:31 -!- prxq [~mommer@f051015092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:35:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:56 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:36:59 -!- comer653 [~62daa78a@gateway/web/freenode/x-nokcqmuwhdmxtayq] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:37:53 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 23:38:25 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:38:58 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 23:40:47 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B9D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:42:09 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 23:45:50 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:51:22 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:52:25 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:49 drewc` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:39 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:54:30 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:56:08 -!- Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:58:01 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:59:11 HET3 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:59:55 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp