00:01:40 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:01:45 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:03:05 hmm 00:03:15 Hmm? 00:03:30 ... hidden markov model? 00:03:39 couldn't find myself on the userlist so I hmm'ed 00:03:57 It's under "r". 00:04:14 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:26 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:05:51 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:08:45 Ok, finally getting rid of MOP in device model within my debugger. 00:09:05 Speeds up compilation in SBCL by a factor of two at least. 00:11:06 I expect to massively cash in on ECL .fas load speed. 00:11:10 gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.220.12] has joined #lisp 00:12:35 ... You know that there are embryonic plans on the books for speeding up SBCL fasloading, right? 00:14:10 Sounds rather encouraging.. 00:14:14 *p_l* tries to slowly get an understanding on how to deal with C++ templates in FFI 00:14:44 p_l, aren't they a purely compile-time construct? 00:15:12 deepfire: yes. 00:15:23 deepfire: so how do you deal with library API that uses them? :D 00:16:41 p_l: C wrapper 00:17:14 fe[nl]ix: right now I'm thinking of using a special auto-generator of wrappers 00:17:33 the idea is after all, to directly call C++.... 00:17:40 p_l: how do you "use" templates? perhaps you mean their instantiations? 00:17:46 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:17:56 (yeah, you can have template template parameters.. but..) 00:18:30 adeht: the question was "what to do if the API expects a templated class wrapping your object" 00:19:27 I think I might get around container classes by subclassing them and providing apriopriate methods... 00:19:33 the instantiation of a class template is a class like any other class 00:20:46 p_l: you can explicitly instantiate a template, and it should then be present in the shared object 00:22:05 adeht: I'm looking at disassembly of QtCore.so right now... 00:22:16 e.g., `template class foo;' 00:23:38 but when I needed to interface with C++ code I usually wrote C wrappers, as fe[nl]ix suggested 00:24:10 I'm getting nice and long function names... std::basic_string, std::allocator >::find_first_not_of(std::basic_string, std::allocator > const&, unsigned long) const 00:24:23 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:24:52 p_l: they haven't learned about keeping typedef information 00:25:16 -!- tnkrm [~user@c-62ffe255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:25:49 Hmm, MOP wasn't as much of a load-time burden as I expected. 00:27:28 derefed [~derefed@cpe-74-65-181-129.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:04 I'm trying to retrieve the function object that a symbol is referencing with (function func-name). However, if func-name itself holds a symbol to represent a function name, how do I retrieve its value for use in (function)? For instance: 00:30:15 (let ((func-name '+)) (function func-name)) 00:30:26 adeht: not only "haven't learned" but explicitly reject. typedefs do not define new types, they are but an alias. So thus they must not change the function signature. 00:30:32 how do I get func-name to resolve in that case? 00:30:43 <_3b`> clhs symbol-function 00:30:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_1.htm 00:30:50 still, for now I can use QtWebKit for UI :/ 00:31:03 Hrm... Does that apply to fdefinition, too? 00:31:06 clhs fdefinition 00:31:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm 00:31:10 Guess so! 00:31:13 ah, thanks _3b` 00:31:29 Note that you still lose with local functions. 00:31:35 <_3b`> oh yeah, fdefinition is the one i wanted 00:31:37 At least, I think you lose... 00:31:40 stokachew [~adam@nat/redhat/x-qcpyzzzatvxvxldp] has joined #lisp 00:31:41 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-kawtwllloqkhezvw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:51 Ok, commit 66e128ab8aced95c69 fixes quadratic time in list functions in ECL. 00:32:04 <_3b`> yeah, can't see local functions by name outside FUNCTION 00:32:07 foom: it depends on the C++ ABI definition.. but sure, it complicates it 00:32:46 so I should prefer fdefinition? 00:33:06 adeht: well, if you define the ABI to be unlike any that actually exists, I suppose you could use typedefs in your names and resolve them at runtime or something. :) 00:33:09 fdefinition will work on setf-functions, if you care about those. 00:33:16 foom: exactly :) 00:33:21 okay 00:33:45 foom: I actually think some _compilers_ do save that information, although not in the shared objects 00:34:03 foom: in order to give better errors 00:34:18 (error messages) 00:34:21 I don't know about that, but GCC at least omits the template arguments which are the default values in error messages now 00:35:03 So you get something like std::basic_string::find_first_not_of(std::basic_string const&, unsigned long) const 00:35:04 instead 00:35:37 foom: iirc Intel C++ gives nicer error messages 00:35:53 (that's a new feature, btw, as of 4.4 or 4.5, I forget which) 00:36:02 btw, there was a proposed interface section for C++ ABI 00:36:22 which included extended information on types of a function, iirc 00:36:57 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:37:04 clang has nice error messages 00:37:12 all fancy & colored 00:37:59 apparently Interface section proposal included information on whether the parameter was a template instantation 00:38:06 (or specialization) 00:38:31 SA_INSTANTIATION This function was produced as the result of C++ template instantiation. If it matches another interface descriptor without this flag set, there is a conflict between an instantiation and a specialization. 00:40:42 How closely do you have to match the C++ compiler code generator when instantiating a template? 00:40:52 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:16 template instantiations have so-called vague linkage 00:41:30 which means every linkage unit can instantiate them, and then the linker randomly chooses one to actually use 00:42:09 so, if you use emit different code for the same instantiation into the same program, you could end up with very odd effects. 00:42:21 yeah.. ODR violations :( 00:42:32 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:09 oh, and to make it better, it's not that it chooses one "whole" set of functions for the class 00:43:27 you could get the constructor from one place, and the destructor from another, and the accessor from another. 00:43:36 so you really better be generating similar code. :) 00:44:43 hi. is there a url w/more info' on the win32 port of sbcl? 00:44:44 Similar, yes, but -how close does it have to be-? 00:44:57 nyef: it doesn't have to be close at all, so long as it works. 00:45:01 cmsimon: What sort of "more info" are you looking for? 00:45:31 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-958d72d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 00:45:38 nyef: it has to have decided the object has the same layout, and act the same way the other one would've 00:46:40 nyef: hi. current progress/development/to do? 00:47:31 current progress: Pretty much stalled due to lack of maintainers using it on any sort of regular basis. Todo: Make it not suck horribly. 00:48:17 nyef: further down the timeline "make kittehs stop!!" ? ;D 00:48:22 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-55-215.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:48:49 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:49:11 Critical to making it not suck horribly is relocatable heaps, incremental heap allocation, that damned double-UWP bug, external-format line-endings, SERVE-EVENT, SIGINT-by-any-other-name, and possibly threading. 00:49:26 Oh, and there's that nastiness with UNC filespecs. 00:49:52 what nastiness? 00:50:04 oh my. 00:50:06 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-33-155.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:50:06 probe-file doesn't work on them. 00:50:17 Thus, OPEN doesn't work on them. 00:50:47 For all this damage, I still find it a better solution on win32 than dealing with bloody GNU CLISP. 00:51:04 really? 00:51:06 heh 00:51:24 Heap relocation is already on the cards, and the incremental heap allocation patches are around somewhere. 00:52:08 There are two attempts at sorting out the double-UWP bug, though not enough confidence in them to go with either. 00:53:02 Umm... We came somewhat close to having threading working a couple years ago, but nobody wanted to put in the effort to make synchronization work. 00:53:39 And SIGINT-by-any-other-name turns out to require about half the synchronization work from threading -anyway-. 00:54:04 oh, nyef := bridgewater ;;; du ar the one i read about working on the port. (: 00:54:07 nod. 00:54:22 -!- Hezy [~Hezy@62.56.254.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:58:47 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 00:59:01 cmsimon: are you swedish? 00:59:02 I was actually considering shifting my development focus to trying to use windows more often, but then my hardware died, and my old disk won't fit my new machine, so I don't have access to my VMs for a bit. 01:00:02 gwynddyllyd: what tipped du off? 01:00:58 Xach: jag vet inte... *whistles* 01:01:03 what är this word, "du"? 01:01:11 Xach: the ar instead of an er 01:01:21 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:01:21 otherwise i'd say norsk 01:01:37 hey, i'm new here. 01:01:45 *gwynddyllyd* cries in the corner 01:02:49 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:03:04 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:03:08 teehee. nyet. 01:03:26 privyet. kak dela? que hay de neuvo? 01:03:36 umlauts aside. |: 01:03:39 nyef: nod. 01:03:47 mik8y [~user@122.199.247.2] has joined #lisp 01:06:16 nyef: do ye have a web site w/history of development? more info'? 01:06:23 -!- codewad [~codewad@c-24-17-156-147.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:06:43 Not really. 01:07:29 There's a couple of todo lists of varying vintage around, and some stray patch sets, but much of what is is in CVS and sbcl-devel archives. 01:08:07 thanks. will read. 01:08:24 i'm jus' stumblin' aroun' right now. 01:09:17 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@127.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:09:22 Oh, you might find... umm... http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/sbcl-win32-slime-and-cygwin-emacs.txt to be of interest, though probably outdated by now. 01:09:56 <_3b`> nyef: did you see http://github.com/dmitryvk/sbcl-win32-threads ? 01:10:01 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:10:11 _3b`: No, I did not. 01:12:45 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:13:23 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.7] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:13:52 What the hell is this [fs:14] junk, and why aren't the backend changes properly conditionalized? 01:14:04 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:14:49 And, for that matter, how can I find just this guys changes? 01:15:53 <_3b`> history link at upper right of file list lists patches with name, dunno if you can filter it beyond that 01:16:44 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 01:17:30 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 01:17:33 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 01:17:45 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-958d72d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:18:23 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@188.147.168.246.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:18:30 ... This is -never- going into mainline. 01:18:58 -!- mik8y [~user@122.199.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:08 Oh, god. He didn't... Is fs:14 the -windows- TLS block pointer? 01:21:41 Ah, no. It's "available for use by application programs." 01:22:19 Hrm. 01:22:20 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 01:22:58 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:26 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 01:25:24 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:25:29 -!- Edward__ [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-53-151.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:29:57 Interesting approach, but won't fly. 01:30:18 nunb [~nundan@122.173.199.92] has joined #lisp 01:30:20 I'll note down that spare pointer as a possible angle, though. 01:31:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:32:19 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:32:22 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp 01:34:10 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:34:37 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:35:16 -!- stokachew is now known as stokachu 01:35:58 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:36:52 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:38:19 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:39 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.47.172] has quit [Quit: netytan] 01:41:49 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:43:47 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:13 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Client Quit] 01:45:22 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:27 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:51:58 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.86.132] has joined #lisp 01:54:01 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:17 nicdev [~user@dhcp-196.subnet-215.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 01:56:51 -!- nicdev [~user@dhcp-196.subnet-215.amherst.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 01:59:08 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 02:02:20 asdf25 [~jeff@pool-173-79-236-231.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:25 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:03:30 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:34 hi, is there a way to use cffi-uffi-compat to seamlessly replace uffi? i can't find out how to get rid of these "component :uffi not found" errors 02:04:40 maybe you need a symlink to the compat uffi.asd in the appropriate place 02:05:06 yeah, tried that, didn't help... maybe it got me a different error 02:06:27 supposedly editing all the .asd's that list :uffi as a dependency and changing it to :cffi-uffi-compat works, but i don't really want to do that 02:06:39 beats me, I just use uffi 02:07:08 why are you avoiding uffi, is there a particular problem you're trying to solve? 02:07:13 How about creating a uffi.asd that depends on cffi-uffi-compat? 02:07:14 yeah, i think i need cffi to control character encoding from clsql 02:07:41 i'm getting a character encoding error reading from a mysql db with clsql, and i remember the last time this happened i ended up needing cffi 02:08:31 the db is latin1, my sbcl external-format is :utf-8... so if anyone knows how to handle that without cffi that'd be cool 02:09:28 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:09:29 setf'ing sb-impl::*default-external-format* to things other than :utf-8 didn't seem to affect anything, it was still trying to use :utf-8 as the encoding 02:10:24 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:11:06 cffi has a *default-foreign-encoding* var, think that's probably how i fixed it last time 02:11:49 asdf25: sb-alien::*default-c-string-external-format* not helpful? 02:12:05 ah that sounds like it might do it... 02:12:23 Note that it's not an exported symbol. 02:14:58 -!- quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1279375297.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:26 -!- HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:56 minion: message for lichtblau: any idea how to combine CommonQT code with custom C++ code (to reduce the amount of SMOKE calls?) 02:15:57 hey, keep it polite! 02:16:08 ? 02:16:19 C++ is a dirty word? :) 02:16:35 -!- etate [~meta@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:16:58 Phoodus: no, apparently minion doesn't have an alias message=memo :P 02:17:35 Error: Needs more DWIM 02:19:11 snarfel [~mbenson@host-225-191-230-24.midco.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:10 nope, that var doesn't seem to affect it, clsql calls uffi:sbcl-naturalize-cstring which calls sb-impl::read-from-c-string/utf-8, even with sb-impl::*default-external-format* and sb-alien::*default-c-string-external-format* set to :latin1 02:20:45 Phoodus: I'll take that under advisement, though I rather expect that the NLU structures required would kill the process heap. 02:20:47 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:20:52 probably should just get clsql working with cffi-uffi-compat 02:22:41 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:24:06 -!- gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.220.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:44 hmmm... clx is apparently broken 02:27:22 -!- billstclai [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:28:20 p_l: How so? 02:28:37 nyef: Fails to compile on SBCL 02:28:45 I'll clean fasls and see again 02:29:04 *nyef* has a built tree, so feels that to be an unlikely scenario. 02:30:05 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 02:30:29 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:30:42 hmm... there's possibility of some ASDF breakage 02:30:57 yup, that was it - ASDF mishandled compilation 02:31:07 cleaning fasls cleaned the error 02:31:11 netytan [~netytan@85.211.47.172] has joined #lisp 02:31:39 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:11 lol @ Hemlock's CLX backend 02:33:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 02:33:32 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 02:36:05 and Qt backend jumps to address 0 02:39:02 ... or it was another mishap regarding libs 02:39:30 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:39:52 Not having much luck, are you? 02:42:57 eh, someone suggested compiling an sbcl without :sb-unicode to fix encoding bugs, but when compiling 1.0.37 with :sb-unicode disabled the compilation failed on some file in a dir named external-formats 02:43:02 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 02:43:39 nyef: Well, I got to the point where I think I can say that Hemlock regularly segfaults in C++ code when using Qt 02:43:55 CLX backend has hilarious display issues and TTY backend seems to work like charm 02:45:14 asdf25: Can't build without unicode? That's a bug, check for a committed fix since the release and check to see if it's already in the tracker? 02:45:29 ok 02:47:32 would be nice to get Hemlock (with a port of SLIME) into such interface: http://thelins.se/learnqt/wp-content/uploads/qtcreator-designer-details.png <--- imagine the flocking of new programmers caught by the trap of eye-candy :P 02:47:35 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:47:35 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.47.172] has quit [Quit: netytan] 02:48:40 netytan [~netytan@85.211.47.172] has joined #lisp 02:48:51 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 02:53:42 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:36 psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:12 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:01:03 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:01:03 -!- Soulmann [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:01:15 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.180.146] has joined #lisp 03:01:25 Soulmann [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:48 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.47.172] has quit [Quit: netytan] 03:01:57 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:57 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:01:57 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 03:02:11 bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:52 Good morning! 03:03:00 hi 03:03:20 Hello beach. 03:03:36 -!- nunb [~nundan@122.173.199.92] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:03:44 nothing about it on launchpad search for "unicode", and build of current sourceforge cvs fails in same place 03:04:34 maden: How is learning Lisp going? 03:04:39 Lovely. 03:04:58 Filing a bug report would be a good next step. 03:05:17 not exactly as fast as i wish. i find it hard to find the time to read my manual 03:05:25 with java classes taking most of my time, and then python... 03:05:34 i guess i'll have to get invested in it during the summer. 03:06:16 Here in Bordeaux, we use Lisp in two courses in the third-year undergraduate program, to answer an earlier question of yours. 03:06:49 i'm moving there ;) 03:07:21 ça pourrait être interessant de prendre un cours de LISP en français, ça me changerais de l'école anglophone dont je me suis habitué depuis tous se temps ! 03:07:29 Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:57 maden: Sure, but remember that we spell in Lisp now, and have been for some decades. 03:08:11 maden: Where in .ca are you? 03:08:21 Quebec 03:08:40 maden: We have an exchange program with a couple of universities there. 03:09:00 That's cool, but I don't go to university 03:09:16 Oh. 03:09:18 Quebec has a weird educations ystem 03:09:18 system 03:09:24 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:09:41 you get to go to some kind of pre-university, which is called "cegep", in french 03:09:58 you either do a "technique", or a "diplome etude collegiale" 03:10:22 technique being 3 years, you learn how to do an actual job (im in computer science) 03:10:30 but i will go to university afterwards 03:10:41 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 03:10:43 We will still be around.. 03:10:43 but studying in france would be extremely interesting. 03:10:59 maden: Google for CREPUQ (modulo spelling). 03:13:28 weird, the site died on me. 03:15:09 i'll check back later, or tomorrow. 03:15:14 beach: are you a teacher or something like that ? 03:15:37 maden: Yeah, something like that. A full professor of CS and head of the department (teaching) of informatics. 03:15:46 oh cool 03:17:56 rayservers [~sp@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 03:19:42 i should think of a project 03:19:48 something small & basic, but interesting 03:20:00 so i would try to complete it and eventually learn out of it... 03:20:17 and build does succeed with :sb-unicode not disabled, will file bug report 03:20:17 because learning the manual without actually trying stuff out really gets confusing 03:20:36 When you feel ready, you can look at http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Lisp-projects/ 03:21:14 -!- dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:21:31 nyef: regarding exception catching in CL<-->C++ bridge... what about using an extern "C" wrapper that would be capable of calling anything? 03:22:36 thanks 03:22:50 (well, it could be also autogenerated with gcc-xml-ffi, I guess) 03:27:05 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:27:35 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-241-211.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:27:38 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has joined #lisp 03:27:41 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.180.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:27:43 p_l: I think I'm going to remain skeptical of all C++ bridges. 03:28:40 hm that reminds me... if i'm going to be writing a largish C++ program and would like to be able to use it as a library from lisp, is there a better way to do that than manually writing lots of C wrapper functions? 03:28:41 nyef: I'm skeptical as well. It's just that getting one that would work to a certain extent without making me write a C wrapper for all of the code manually would be a great win for me 03:29:00 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 03:29:11 asdf25: right now, not really, unless you know how to make SMOKE generate a binding for it for you 03:29:32 SWIG chokes on more complex C++ constructs (and afaik it completely fails on templates) 03:29:36 asdf25: Since you have to subset C++ to get anything done anyway, why not use the "C" subset? 03:30:14 nyef: let's guess, other people in the devteam that decided to use Boost? :D 03:30:37 or even better, someone wanted to use Qt... :P 03:30:47 No, the last time I even seriously considered using C++ for anything was before they added templates to the language. 03:30:49 hmm i take it that means i can't use classes and inheritance? 03:30:49 (or wxWindows) 03:30:58 asdf25: depends... 03:31:09 asdf25: C++ is a nasty bitch 03:31:15 heh 03:31:37 right now I'm trying to download gcc-xml, but it seems their CVS server is stuck 03:32:45 p_l: SWIG can do explicitly instantiated templates. 03:34:02 Ralith: right. I just knew that I should avoid them, because SWIG doesn't have a full parser and might mistranslate (which happens even with preprocessor stuff) 03:34:06 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:35:01 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:36:20 my main reasons to deal with C++ would be libraries written for it 03:36:41 stuff like Qt, GDI+, etc. Interesting that my examples are all GUI, ne? :D 03:37:06 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:28 maybe i'll just write my program in C then, gotten too used to live lisp images to switch to c++ executables 03:37:31 Qt sucked the one time I tried to use it. 03:38:13 nyef: when was it? 03:38:31 Let's see... it was post '98... 03:38:42 ... I think... 03:38:56 oh... Qt 1.x 03:39:02 That one mightily sucked 03:39:03 They've probably fixed a few things since then. 03:39:09 (compared to today's) 03:39:28 nowadays QT still requires preprocessor, but that's due to lack of macros and mop in C++ 03:39:29 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:21 Actually, it couldn't have been too long after BeOS 5 PE was out... could it? 03:41:26 ... it could 03:41:43 I do recall that 5PE was still back in KDE1.x era 03:42:12 Yeah, I remember trying both Qt and BeOS and one or two other approaches, and finally throwing in the towel. 03:42:19 also, somewhere during Qt3.x (and KDE3) time, GCC gave a huge speed boost to all C++ code 03:43:16 (the visibility attribute) 03:46:31 i suppose there's no problem with calling multithreaded C libraries from sbcl? no performance loss vs directly running it as a C program? 03:47:08 ... multithreaded libraries? That's... iffy, at times. 03:47:24 ah damn 03:47:31 Partly from signal delivery, I'll admit. 03:47:33 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:47:34 asdf25: there's performance loss in FFI calls, iirc. Also, it's best if the library isn't creating the threads by itself 03:48:13 Yeah, if the library creates threads then there can be delivery problems. If the library creates a thread that tries to call back into lisp then you are -guaranteed- to have trouble. 03:48:14 i suppose i'll have to give up on running this from lisp then, very important for it to run multithreaded 03:48:58 patrickmclaren [~user@ppp118-209-58-64.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:30 -!- Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:50:44 Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 03:54:46 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:28 nyef: well, we can always intercept either library calls or syscalls if needed to get the info to avoid signaling issue... 03:55:48 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:55:58 For lisp signals that can't be targetted to particular threads? 03:56:27 nyef: you could override the signaling completely, I guess 03:58:32 Tabstar [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has joined #lisp 03:58:40 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 03:58:57 -!- Tabmow [terry@freenode/staff/tabmow] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:59:24 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:24 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:59:24 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 04:01:15 -!- Tabstar is now known as Tabmow 04:10:22 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:10:42 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.86.132] has left #lisp 04:14:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:15:33 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-qcpyzzzatvxvxldp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:15:45 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-vzitdzoseauicahc] has joined #lisp 04:22:44 anyone know a quick way to check if a character is non-ascii so i can filter it out? sbcl with :sb-unicode is printing it as \206 04:23:13 ASCII characters are seven-bit. 04:23:19 A stupid approach would be to use char-code. 04:23:28 That's not stupid. 04:23:35 sounds pretty good to me actually 04:23:39 Well, it's stupid in the sense that it will only work by accident. 04:23:43 hmm 04:23:47 It's just a common kind of accident. 04:24:02 (defun ascii-char-p (char) (<= (integer-length (char-code char)) 7)). 04:24:08 alright, well that's good enough for now, i'll deal with it when you break it later 04:24:09 By definition, not by accident. 04:24:20 So, what does (char-code x) mean? :) 04:24:22 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:24:45 or, what does CL define (char-code #\a) to be? 04:24:48 Sure, you're relying on your host lisp using ascii or ascii-superset codepoints internally, but that's normal. 04:25:00 A common accidental occurrence. 04:25:17 As soon as you document the requirement, it ceases to be accidental. 04:25:33 And, honestly, you're more likely to run into a MacRoman lisp than an EBCDIC one. 04:25:52 Then make sure you document it. 04:27:44 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 04:28:22 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:30:29 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:33 whom did i speak with here about SLIME support for my custom object system? 04:30:47 minion: logs? 04:30:47 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 04:32:54 -!- smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:42:40 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 04:44:54 dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 04:45:40 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 04:48:52 mishoo [~mishoo@95.233.108.37] has joined #lisp 04:58:06 -!- maden [~maden@dsl-158-243.aei.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:04 -!- asdf25 [~jeff@pool-173-79-236-231.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:03:27 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rmprklxtdryagvvi] has joined #lisp 05:03:56 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 05:05:15 nunb [~nundan@122.162.1.134] has joined #lisp 05:07:53 -!- easyE [U6f8XiITAE@panix3.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:09:55 -!- goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:11:10 benny [~benny@i577A8FB4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:16:26 goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 05:16:26 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:17:11 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:21 -!- Evet [~Evet@unaffiliated/evet] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:22:40 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:06 leifw [~user@2002:4243:7fb9:1234:216:eaff:fee5:d76c] has joined #lisp 05:28:09 smolyn [~smolyn@S0106002500fe5c20.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:58 -!- goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:31:46 -!- linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:33:26 does CL have something like a java hashset? 05:33:38 linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 05:34:43 I've just used a hashtable with a value of t, not sure if there's any libs for hashsets in particular 05:34:58 ...value of t for each key... 05:36:15 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:39:35 oooh 05:39:37 cl-containers 05:39:37 :D 05:40:11 actually, I'm on the lookout for pure functional hashtables & trees 05:40:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:41:00 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@95.233.108.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:41:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:42:57 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:44:30 goosemo [~goosemo@d60-65-112-181.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 05:45:36 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:36 mega1 [~quassel@3e70d278.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 05:51:44 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:53:42 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:55:47 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 05:58:55 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-120-160.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 06:00:17 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.225] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:01:29 -!- jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:01:32 jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #lisp 06:01:55 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:24 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:02:38 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-vzitdzoseauicahc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:02:52 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-lvdyokwnoietvprf] has joined #lisp 06:05:04 -!- randa [~arand@94.99.50.84.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:12:26 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-lvdyokwnoietvprf] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:12:33 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-hiheusyjtmwmggma] has joined #lisp 06:13:54 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: g'night world. 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seconds] 07:36:54 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:37 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 07:59:07 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:59:17 hi, is it possible to have a timeout (in seconds) while in sb-thread:condition-wait? 08:00:53 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:01:25 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 08:02:26 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:33 sb-sys:with-deadline 08:05:25 but caution, unwinding from a deadline in condition-wait may mean unwinding without reacquiring the lock 08:05:40 hence make sure to unwind _out of_ your critical section 08:06:26 tcr: excellent info, thanks! 08:06:30 i.e. no (with-mutex (mtx) (handler-case (with-deadline (:seconds ) (condition-wait cvar mtx)) (sb-sys:deadline-timeout () ...))) 08:06:40 -!- mooglenorph 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has joined #lisp 08:42:06 Ok, audio quality of the 2005 kiczales interview sucks rocks from the bottom of the ocean. 08:43:35 I was naive in my attempts to dig up a speech recognition program for purposes of getting a rough transcript.. 08:45:36 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-ulqqizmtigzrbugu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:42 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441684.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:45:45 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-ubkkjjxxrsyitnoy] has joined #lisp 08:46:51 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD] 08:47:20 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:30 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442741.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:52:21 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 08:57:03 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:57:20 urnthr [~James@c-98-222-201-170.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:04 heh would like to see the outcome 08:58:13 abilli_ [~abilli@salle102.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 08:58:26 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 08:59:04 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Absquatulandus sum] 08:59:28 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:59:29 abdu247 [~abdu247@41.218.29.168] has joined #lisp 08:59:49 How is it better between deftype or defclass if I want to make a list of year and make them clickable ? 08:59:52 thnaks 08:59:54 thanks 09:00:51 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B29A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:29 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:02:49 -!- urnthr [~James@c-98-222-201-170.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:03:56 j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has joined #lisp 09:03:57 How can I ask something to minion ?? 09:04:38 minion, how can abilli_ ask you something? 09:04:39 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 09:04:56 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:05:25 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:49 ndoillet [~ndoillet@salle102.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 09:10:33 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:14:12 abilli_: deftype only introduces type abbreviations, not really new types 09:14:39 just like C's typedef 09:15:13 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:15:16 ok but if I have to make a list of year for example 09:15:25 I first create a deftype year 09:15:28 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-139-33.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:15:40 abilli_: lists can always hold anything 09:15:53 then a series of accept 09:15:59 to make some year acceptable 09:16:11 (accept 'year 2010) 09:16:13 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 09:16:32 is that working ? 09:17:12 I do not actually know mcclim, but I wager it's a little bit more involved 09:17:30 there's probably some kind of accept protocol you have to adhere; did you read the documentation about accept? 09:17:35 you can give defstruct a (:type list) in its declaration (or is it 'list?) that will let you access lists by slot name 09:17:37 yes 09:17:42 but there is no example 09:17:56 abilli_: grep through the mcclim Examples/ 09:18:25 Such structs don't have class tags, though, iirc, so identifying them might be problematic. 09:18:37 yeah, I have no clue what the intended use here is 09:19:02 although iirc there might be an option to add an identifying 1st term to list-typed structs 09:19:26 ok 09:19:33 it's a little bit smoky in my head 09:19:38 but i'll try to figure it out 09:19:50 thank you guys 09:19:50 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:20:26 deftype does produce new types, unlike in C. 09:21:05 They are defined in terms of existing types, but that's another issue. 09:21:46 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:24:51 poincare_ [~poincare@81.Red-88-2-164.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:24 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:30:03 I began like this 09:30:07 (defclass year ()) 09:30:09 then 09:30:17 (define-presentation-type year ()) 09:30:20 is that ok ?? 09:30:32 it sure does not look ok 09:30:46 :( 09:30:51 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:31:16 you must somehow get at the object that has been accepted 09:31:17 the way is not good or just my syntax ? 09:31:32 well, i'm not very proficient with CLIM 09:31:35 yes I agree 09:31:56 In my whole source I have a method that display a view 09:32:08 either you don't need the dummy class (in which case you just define a presentation type), or if you define a class it must have some slot 09:32:10 and now i have to add in this view some date 09:32:15 for the user 09:32:27 in that way it will be able to choose 09:32:52 anywawy, maybe someone with more experince with CLIM will pop in the channel 09:32:58 ok 09:33:00 thanks by the way 09:33:05 I'll wait 09:33:23 i'd suggest going through example source code 09:33:29 yes i will 09:34:02 -!- abilli_ [~abilli@salle102.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34:03 -!- ndoillet [~ndoillet@salle102.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:03 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:36:12 good morning 09:37:03 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:37:35 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:39:18 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 09:40:44 -!- xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:42:28 xenosoz1 [~xenosoz@pe.snu.ac.kr] has 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[~user@pod04.cs.uct.ac.za] has left #lisp 10:22:02 etate [~meta@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:02 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:23:27 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:25:25 hello mvilleneuve 10:25:27 late for you! 10:27:10 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:11 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:23 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:34:24 -!- etate [~meta@mon69-4-82-228-201-242.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:25 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:44 -!- crimson13 [~Randy@d54C07576.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 10:50:03 crimson13 [~Randy@d54C07576.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 10:50:31 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fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 11:13:40 dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:15:42 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:18:18 stipet [~user@226-96-117-82.surf.blixtvik.se] has joined #lisp 11:18:37 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:19:44 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:19:56 -!- lnostdal_ [~6dbd4e2b@gateway/web/freenode/x-oxgkesqrvwldivex] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:21:22 Joreji [~thomas@79-187.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:22:14 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 11:25:00 spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has joined #lisp 11:25:29 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:26:01 TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 11:26:47 -!- fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:27:03 fnordus [~dnall@70.70.0.215] has joined #lisp 11:27:04 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:29:36 BrianRice [~water@c-76-115-44-87.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:28 abilli [~abilli@salle201.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 11:39:16 Is there someone who knows McClim ?? 11:39:25 i know a little 11:39:30 Hi 11:39:44 hello 11:40:07 Do you know how to make a series of elements clickable ? 11:40:15 I have a view 11:40:31 and I want to add in this view some years 11:40:31 make a presentation? 11:40:49 and each year can be clicked by the user 11:41:09 So I have thinked about making a presentation 11:41:10 yes 11:41:25 (define-presentation-type year ()) 11:41:30 is this the correct syntax ? 11:41:37 yes 11:41:39 ok 11:41:48 so I have to define a class year too 11:41:54 defclass year () 11:41:57 no, you don't have to 11:42:09 so what ? a type ? 11:42:29 because (define-presentation-type) want a type as parameter 11:42:44 presentation is enough, then you need to defined a command for it to be clickable 11:43:07 so I have just to make this (define-presentation-type year ()) 11:43:25 and in an other method make the accept ?? 11:43:26 something like: (define-foo-command com-select-year ((object 'year :gesture :select)) (print object)) 11:43:37 and then (present 2009 'year) 11:43:38 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:43:52 ok 11:44:33 and the define-foo-command 11:44:45 have to be called from my method ? 11:44:55 like what ? like a normal function 11:44:56 define-foo-command is just an example 11:45:04 yes 11:45:12 I understood that 11:45:19 so every presentation year will be clickable, and will print it 11:45:49 because I have other kind of command like this one 11:45:57 (define-compta-command (com-edit-account :name t) 11:45:58 ((account 'account :gesture :select)) 11:46:00 (setf (stream-default-view (find-pane-named *application-frame* 'main)) 11:46:01 (make-instance 'account-view :account account))) 11:46:09 is the same idea 11:46:12 no ? 11:47:57 depends on what you want to do. with this command every presented account will be clickable 11:48:03 yes 11:48:17 is that is do actually 11:48:25 it does actually 11:48:27 sorry 11:48:29 :) 11:48:58 is that what you want? 11:50:43 yes 11:50:50 I want to display a series of year 11:51:01 and each one have to be clickable by the user 11:51:01 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51:13 and on the click I have to trigger a method 11:51:34 -!- jao [~jao@136.Red-88-6-173.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:51:35 it have to be clickable at any time? 11:52:02 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:03 but something I don't understand is how define-compta-command have to be triggered ? 11:52:18 yes it have to be clickable any time in this view 11:52:22 obviously 11:52:26 it's triggered by the user 11:52:29 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:37 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:52:40 when she clicks on a year 11:52:55 ok 11:53:16 so in the method which display my view 11:53:28 I have to print all the years I need 11:53:46 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:53:47 and they will be clickable 11:53:54 because they are of type 'year 11:53:56 ? 11:54:20 you output years like (present 2010 'year) 11:54:56 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:55:44 ok 11:55:48 gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.250.221] has joined #lisp 11:55:53 thanks I'll try to figure it out 11:57:10 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:00:32 oh well, launchpad went read only just when i wanted to report a bug 12:08:13 LukeL_ [nobody@unaffiliated/lukel] has joined #lisp 12:09:42 shadowspar [~rick@S010600212974d18c.su.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:20 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:12:47 wormwood [~wormwood@pool-141-155-25-139.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:25 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 12:15:59 -!- wormwood_ [~wormwood@pool-70-18-17-28.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:17:03 -!- coyo [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ACTION closes window in a panic] 12:17:55 -!- Kavinorum [~kavinorum@pool-74-103-119-154.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:20:47 -!- abilli [~abilli@salle201.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:33 ndoillet [~ndoillet@salle201.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 12:21:49 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 12:22:01 Hi I have to display a series of clickable years 12:22:04 so I made that 12:22:13 you too? 12:22:21 no I'm the same person 12:22:29 I just have to quit my pc 12:22:36 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:22:38 don't paste here 12:22:38 so i use a friend account 12:22:41 lisppaste: url? 12:22:42 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 12:23:44 -!- LukeL_ [nobody@unaffiliated/lukel] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 12:23:54 ndoillet pasted "Series of years" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97124 12:24:05 http://paste.lisp.org/+22XW 12:24:41 so, does it work? 12:24:45 nope 12:24:52 it doesn't display nothing 12:25:12 normally it's the present method that display the years 12:25:30 if I made a format in the same method it works but the present() no 12:25:34 -!- stipet [~user@226-96-117-82.surf.blixtvik.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:26:43 did you do define-presentation-method present? you don't need that if you just want to print a number 12:27:11 No I haven't do that 12:27:26 becaus like you said I just want to print numbers 12:28:47 maybe I have to pass the stream to the present() method ? 12:28:59 because by default the stream it's the standard output 12:29:14 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.180.146] has joined #lisp 12:29:31 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.180.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:33 try :stream pane 12:29:34 I tried but if I do (present 2010 'year pane) 12:30:25 -!- xinming [~hyy@125.109.74.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:30:35 There is no applicable method for the generic function 12:30:38 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:30:43 lnostdal [~6dbd4e2b@gateway/web/freenode/x-qvkxcgegdmayixsp] has joined #lisp 12:30:45 I have this on the compilation 12:31:13 how did you call format that it works? 12:31:26 xinming [~hyy@125.109.74.2] has joined #lisp 12:31:28 (format pane area-name) 12:31:36 pane is my stream 12:31:52 then (present 2010 'year :stream pane) should also work 12:32:09 no it show me the error above 12:32:39 when I ask for the view 12:34:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/97125 12:34:14 -!- _2x2l [~andrew@c-71-233-209-245.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:34:28 -!- ndoillet [~ndoillet@salle201.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:52 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:43 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has joined #lisp 12:35:50 maybe you need to pass :view too? 12:38:55 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 12:44:37 ndoillet [~ndoillet@salle201.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 12:44:43 sorry 12:44:55 I had to change again of computer 12:45:03 my message was: maybe you need to pass :view too? 12:45:06 did you see the error 12:45:12 ok I'll try 12:47:19 kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk093111119050.a1.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:30 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:49:23 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-49-128.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:50:42 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-55-215.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:52:22 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:54:32 -!- lnostdal [~6dbd4e2b@gateway/web/freenode/x-qvkxcgegdmayixsp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:56:48 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 12:57:14 -!- xinming [~hyy@125.109.74.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:58:48 xinming [~hyy@218.73.136.46] has joined #lisp 12:59:22 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-252-165.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:01:46 edi_99 [~quassel@89-212-19-62.static.t-2.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:51 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:29 luis pasted "Macro behaviour question" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97128 13:02:54 SBCL likes this, Allegro doesn't it. Is this behaviour well-defined? 13:03:06 silenius [~silenius@i59F765C1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:03:48 <_3b> looks OK to me, how does it object? 13:04:09 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:11:48 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 13:17:01 I'd expect that macroexpanding '(bar) would return 'foo. 13:17:17 And that calling baz would return foo. 13:19:09 Hmmm...been thinking lately. Right now I run Linux within OSX using a virtual machine, which I do my CL development in. I've been thinking about just running it natively in OSX for performance, but also less memory footprint since a 1Gb RAM virtual machine running just emacs, sbcl, etc feels..kinda expensive. Just as a general feel from others, are there any real problems with using sbcl in OSX, or is another distribution better 13:19:09 under OSX that I should look at? 13:19:57 If there are problems running SBCL under OSX, you should find them and fix them, surely? 13:20:05 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-158.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:20:23 -!- ndoillet [~ndoillet@salle201.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:33 <_3b> CCL is a popular choice for mac, SBCL probably work reasonably well too though 13:20:39 If you're planning to do native UI programming, ccl has that cocoa bridge thing. 13:20:48 Well, that's true yes..I haven't actually used sbcl or any other distribution under native linux - I'm just a bit concerned because I've always heard that linux was the preferred development environment. 13:21:25 TDT: I use GNU Emacs and SBCL for some development, and then deploy things to SBCL on linux. 13:21:27 ahhh, I didn't know that and I wouldn't mind trying more gui programming, but am thinking mostly sticking with mcclim for linux compatibility on distributed programs. 13:21:34 Of course it is. How many SBCL committers are there? And how many of them run linux as a primary system? 13:21:37 TDT: that is, GNU Emacs and SBCL on Mac OS X. 13:22:19 Xach: Ah ok, and you're doing a lot more than I am for sure so I have a feeeling I'm overworrying and won't, I'll stick with sbcl in OSX as well since I'm most comfortable with it so far. 13:22:41 i've switched to Linux (in a VM) since problems with OpenGL in Snow Leopard 13:23:14 zan-xhipe [~user@41.133.107.78] has joined #lisp 13:23:54 ah, yeah, I haven't done anything with opengl quite yet. I'm sitting about 80-85% active memory used on osx, and starting to hit swap more and more so that's why I'm trying to address this some. 13:24:00 TDT: my biggest hassle is my macbook makes the function keys a little awkward to hit, and i have some useful stuff bound to f1 and f2 13:24:08 i need to find better bindings for the laptop 13:24:16 TDT: why don't you give less memory to VM? 13:25:36 -!- prip_ [~foo@host149-132-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:25:47 jdz: Unfortunately it's a bit of a tradeoff, I sometimes run fairly memory intensive tasks in the virtual machine, and ran into problems with less than this in the past. Switching it often became a bit of a hassle. DevonThink is really starting to hit on the amount of memory it is consuming because of a recent project. 13:27:41 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:27:42 Xach: I kinda wish there was a way to have a tiling window manager built into osx, or an addon - I've been using StumpWM, and really like it. 13:27:43 doesn't OS X manage the virtual machine memory in a reasonable manner (like, say, not committing the unused pages?) 13:27:58 s/?)/)?/ 13:28:26 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:33 prip_ [~foo@host149-132-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:28:48 cmm: I honestly don't know much about how OSX handles virtual memory. I'm not using much swap right now so that's good at least. 13:31:33 hmm... it would be nice if OSX actually did support MAP_NORESERVE... 13:31:58 Xach: Speaking of emacs, do you use the .app version of gnu emacs, or did you build it from ports? One of the things I'm not too fond of with OSX is the ability to launch multiple instances of emacs with the .app version is difficult (without copying the binary) 13:32:16 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 13:32:24 why would you want to launch multiple instances of emacs? 13:33:08 TDT: open -na emacs 13:34:00 Less buffers to deal with, froydnj. I like to run one instance with gnus/org-mode up and another for actual programming when possible. I tend to split them out a bit just to avoid so many buffers open. 13:34:04 jdz: thanks 13:34:17 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-22-192.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:34:24 fdelgado [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 13:34:40 jdz: that's an amazing command, been using osx for 6 years and never knew about that one. 13:34:40 -!- fdelgado is now known as felideon 13:35:24 open? i use that from emacs to open files with M-! 13:35:26 TDT: I can sorta understand if you don't want gnus to block, say...but I have 1k+ buffers atm and haven't found "too many buffers" to be a problem 13:35:28 sometimes 13:35:37 -!- poincare_ [~poincare@81.Red-88-2-164.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:35:58 fwiw, emacs's buffer lists are frame-local. so two frames are not as good as two emacs instances, but definitely better than one frame 13:36:33 i've switchet do emcas --daemon anyway 13:36:37 (and gnus blocking problem is nicely solved by way of installing leafnode) 13:36:52 fsvo of "nicely" 13:37:19 Yeah,I haven't had blocking issues, mostly this was for more organization than anything else. 13:38:10 also, emacs's memory footprint is positively tiny by today's standards 13:38:27 eighty megabytes and constant swapping? 13:39:55 *cmm* fondly remembers the times when 2 megabytes were a reasonable amount of RAM for a linux system 13:40:02 (if you didn't need X) 13:40:20 jmbr [~jmbr@127.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:40:23 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-121-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:41:16 amaron [~amaron@cable-188-2-22-192.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 13:42:47 You could run monochrome X just fine 13:44:42 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:45:20 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-2-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:47:46 mega1 [~quassel@3e70d278.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:47:48 Axius [~hi@92.82.80.130] has joined #lisp 13:48:47 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:50:18 _and_ emacs? I don't quite remember at this point :) 13:51:22 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.80.130] has quit [Client Quit] 13:51:43 LinkFly [~linkfly@94.158.187.24] has joined #lisp 13:52:12 -!- j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has quit [] 13:52:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: good bye for now] 13:52:30 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:43 maden [~maden@dsl-145-42.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 13:53:24 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:53:24 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 13:53:24 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:53:36 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:53:44 wvdschel [~wim@d51A4A9AF.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 13:53:56 bgs100 [57o9@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 13:54:04 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-ubkkjjxxrsyitnoy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:43 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@mk093111119050.a1.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:54:55 _3b, nyef: Allegro complains that FOO is undefined when expanding BAR in BAZ. 13:54:59 well, 4MW were enough to run several emacsen, but no X10 (it didn't exist yet? :P) 13:55:36 (context again: ) 13:56:11 <_3b`> that sounds wrong, given the 'if defmacro form appears as a top level form...' bit on defmacro page 13:56:29 clhs defmacro 13:56:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmac.htm 13:56:59 cmm: I recommend playing a little with retrocomputing, it gives a wonderful sense of perception to how much one can do :D 13:57:05 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:28 it wastes your time 13:57:35 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:57:45 (as I said today to my father complaining about slowness of his computer - the only thing possible would be antivirus due to its hooks, cause the bloody machine can brute-force its way through any performance problem) 13:57:52 LinkFly_ [~LinkFly_@94.158.187.24] has joined #lisp 13:58:15 eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 13:58:29 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:58:49 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-iovnihjdcmxllovl] has joined #lisp 13:59:08 Heh. Yeah, and running an antivirus program is probably not even the best solution to the problem it purports to solve anymore. 13:59:08 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:20 leo2007 pasted "ccl svn update" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97131 13:59:39 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-iovnihjdcmxllovl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:50 lisppaste: take the blue pill 13:59:53 pff 13:59:58 I am svn updating ccl and facing this question as in 97131, what one to use? 14:00:02 leo2007: take the blue pill 14:00:08 leo2007: 'tf' unless you've customized your image at all 14:00:23 nyef, it's never the best solution to this problem, just the most accessible.. 14:00:31 froydnj: thank you ;) No I have customised anything. 14:00:37 haven't* 14:00:49 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:55 No longer the most accessible so much, given easy virtualization and disk image snapshots. 14:00:56 nyef: the bloody computer brute-forced its way through Photoshop startup in I guess 30s. And I get complaints concerning performance! 14:00:59 The best solution, supposedly, is to run formally-proven software.. 14:01:31 deepfire: the best solution is the oldest, known as "Common Sense" 14:01:37 "Best" needs to be qualified in some manner. 14:01:59 p_l, thinking really hard? 14:02:10 no, Steve Jobs knows what's best for everybody 14:02:55 *p_l* thinks of making a Steve Jobs target for darts 14:03:01 jdz: Clearly, what's "best for everybody", then, is to give their money to Steve Jobs? 14:03:14 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:04:03 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-ucvdwhkjchfkiglh] has joined #lisp 14:04:21 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-ucvdwhkjchfkiglh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04:23 nyef: that's a part of the deal 14:05:26 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:25 p_l: common sense doesn't protect you from nasties that crawl through holes in the network stack 14:07:10 beach: Really, you're using #lisp to attract cegep students away from us? (: 14:08:10 cmm: "The three golden rules to ensure computer security are: do not own a computer; do not power it on; and do not use it." 14:09:05 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-ewagmabmmsnbmzzs] has joined #lisp 14:10:12 froydnj: I know, right? I'm not very successful communicating that to the wife, though :) 14:10:17 <_3b`> froydnj: 4. and don't interact with anyone who does 1-3? 14:10:25 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.182.62] has joined #lisp 14:12:59 why do most of people esp. in intro courses say Lisp is interpreted language... 14:13:42 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-ewagmabmmsnbmzzs] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:46 udzinari: Because they confuse a REPL with interpretation. 14:14:02 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-itzhbgisbyxzesrr] has joined #lisp 14:14:08 <_3b`> or they just don't know what they are talking about 14:14:16 I'll go with both? 14:14:24 sellout: yes sure, but a professor at Harvard?? 14:14:32 <_3b`> also, 'because most intro courses say lisp is interpreted' 14:14:39 The bit they don't understand is that either no language is interpreted, or all languages are interpreted. 14:14:45 and he is running clisp.. 14:14:47 http://academicearth.org/lectures/introduction-to-lisp 14:14:58 <_3b`> well, clisp is interpreted 14:15:02 mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has joined #lisp 14:15:08 _3b`: really? 14:15:26 clisp is compiled to an interpreted bytecode, clearly it's both! 14:15:50 There's a definition of compilation in the spec, and clisp does respect and provide that. 14:15:57 yes 14:16:12 Aren't CPU hardware intepreters? 14:16:14 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-16-247-61.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:16 <_3b`> right, didn't say it isn't compiled too :) 14:16:47 exactly they can at least mention compilation in a normal context.. 14:17:26 because people esp after c/cpp their mind goes like: interpreted slow.. blah blah 14:17:26 What's compilation? Removal of excessive generality? 14:18:17 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:18:33 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@77-233-95-4.televork.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:47 If so, the question can be reformulated as -- how much excessive generality does the implementation remove? 14:20:13 -!- stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-itzhbgisbyxzesrr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:25:12 stokachu [~adam@nat/redhat/x-eexbvqsreyhzizvp] has joined #lisp 14:25:23 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:27:06 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:27:10 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:18 -!- mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:27:36 mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has joined #lisp 14:28:31 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:29:15 -!- mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29:15 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:29:25 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:17 mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has joined #lisp 14:30:56 -!- LinkFly_ [~LinkFly_@94.158.187.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:31:17 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: bye] 14:31:25 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:31:57 JohnnyL [excellent_@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:11 -!- mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:00 mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has joined #lisp 14:43:12 -!- mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:38 -!- zan-xhipe [~user@41.133.107.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:38 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:43:56 zan-xhipe [~user@41.133.107.78] has joined #lisp 14:44:07 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 14:44:23 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rmprklxtdryagvvi] has left #lisp 14:45:03 -!- davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:46:13 mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has joined #lisp 14:47:05 -!- mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:14 xinming_ [~hyy@125.109.250.75] has joined #lisp 14:52:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-187.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:53:54 mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has joined #lisp 14:54:32 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:32 mcdonji [~user@173-203-206-96.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:02 -!- crimson13 [~Randy@d54C07576.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 14:55:34 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.136.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:58:27 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:01:17 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:04:54 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:05:44 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@192.165.126.74] has quit [Quit: -arividerchi] 15:09:52 seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:55 TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 15:09:59 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.231.112] has quit [Quit: off] 15:10:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:11:21 HG` [~HG@xdslhe191.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:17:12 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 15:17:21 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:54 Is there any way to tag functions? IE tag function foo with utility,logger,small? 15:19:07 you can associate any property with any object, technically 15:19:27 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:28 perhaps you want to ask a more directed question? 15:19:53 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:21:57 This thought is not fully formulated :) but if I want to find a function in slime M-. is quite nice. Say I want to find all the 'utility' functions. 15:22:29 How do you know what constitutes a "utility" function? 15:22:33 you'd want some emacs-side support for that, then 15:22:43 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756eff.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:47 Now I have them in a file that denotes they are utility functions but no runtime info on that. 15:22:59 <_3b`> maybe you want packages? 15:23:08 Or maybe something akin to etags? 15:23:21 etags? 15:23:28 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:23:43 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 15:23:52 It's how M-. works in languages without decent meta-information. 15:23:54 nobody wants etags, believe you me 15:23:58 *shudder* 15:24:00 Doesn't work worth a damn for C, though. 15:24:39 (Bloody text-matching parser, not a semantic parser, not that the semantic bovinator does any better...) 15:25:49 nyef: etags that looks interesting. that might be what I'm thinking about. 15:26:18 It's not what you're thinking about, but it might be similar. 15:26:21 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-198-162.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:27:04 I think there needs to be a rule for "intellisense" and other C-program-entity-finding parsers out there: If your parser doesn't do macroexpansion, it's not worth bloody using. 15:27:27 but but... slime's M-. is already strictly better than etags, surely? 15:27:56 Of course it is, modulo the whole "having to have the entire program loaded" bit. 15:28:04 lnostdal [~6dbd4e2b@gateway/web/freenode/x-yqjoeurwhejzpvta] has joined #lisp 15:28:27 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:35 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:28:37 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-192.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 15:29:42 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:16 -!- edi_99 [~quassel@89-212-19-62.static.t-2.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:12 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:31:19 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 15:31:27 chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-zvwuoonjluozxnps] has joined #lisp 15:32:54 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442741.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 15:33:36 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 15:34:01 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:35:08 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:35:26 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-42-26.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:35:47 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 15:38:20 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-89-tbnb-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:38:20 -!- mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:10 -!- lnostdal [~6dbd4e2b@gateway/web/freenode/x-yqjoeurwhejzpvta] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:39:30 mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has joined #lisp 15:40:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKM07drEMRw 15:41:27 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:42:48 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:43 sbahra [~sbahra@128.164.16.150] has joined #lisp 15:44:45 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:09 -!- lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:45:30 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@128.164.16.150] has quit [Client Quit] 15:45:44 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:49:00 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2-dev] 15:49:55 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-111-49.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:57 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:51:36 kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 15:51:43 jao [~jao@136.Red-88-6-173.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:00 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:52:04 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.244] has joined #lisp 15:53:15 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:54:13 nowhereman [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:27 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:58:57 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:59:10 jacoblyles [~jacoblyle@ppp-71-128-202-116.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:01 I'm a bit of a noobie. I am trying to write a function that takes a lambda expression as argument and prints the entire thing to standard out, but I can't figure out how. 16:00:29 clhs print 16:00:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 16:04:35 jacoblyles, there's a big difference between a lambda expression and a closure/function object (which is the result of evaluating the former) 16:04:37 something like (print (lambda (x) x)) doesn't work, it prints the name of the object that the lambda function is assigned to, and not the function itself. Quoting the lambda function is not an option either, because I want to assign the lambda to a variable 16:05:11 -!- shadowspar [~rick@S010600212974d18c.su.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 16:05:28 what you want to achieve is only possible with using your own lambda* macro, or accessing some implementation internal structure on high enough debugging level 16:05:57 you can quote a lambda and later coerce it to a function 16:05:58 attila_lendval: So there is no easy way to retrieve the lambda expression from a closure (if I understand your terminology correctly) 16:06:22 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:06:25 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 16:07:20 using a macro you can store both the expression and the evaluated version... (defmacro x (form) `(values ,x ',x)) 16:09:12 stassats: well, I know about eval, which is a one-way map in the opposite direction from what I want. I may be able to write my program by taking in a quoted function definition instead of an evaluated function, then eval-ing when necessary. 16:09:25 not eval 16:09:27 clhs coerce 16:09:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm 16:09:52 -!- mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:03 you can also look at mop 16:11:22 you can get the expression etc from a function, problem is that it is not standarized 16:11:38 http://lisp.org/mop/index.html 16:11:52 (although thats for generic functions, not lambdas) 16:11:54 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:11:56 what MOP has got to do with this? 16:11:59 clhs f-l-e 16:11:59 FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm 16:12:12 ignore me :x 16:12:27 function-lambda-expression doesn't have to return anything meaningful 16:14:56 abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has joined #lisp 16:15:46 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.199.196] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 16:17:21 mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has joined #lisp 16:18:07 soverton [~soverton@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:07 -!- bakkdoor [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has quit [Quit: Serverwechsel] 16:18:28 bakkdoor [~bakkdoor@s15229144.onlinehome-server.info] has joined #lisp 16:19:36 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslhe191.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 16:19:49 can anyone point me towards some working code that uses sb-ext:run-program? I'm trying to run ssh with it. 16:20:52 (sb-ext:run-program "ls" '("-l") :search t :output t) 16:21:42 jacoblyles: When in the debugger you can get info. Is that close to what you are talking about. How does the debugger do that? 16:22:29 it's implementation dependent 16:23:06 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@127.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:22 stassats: I can get code like that to work, but when it comes to ssh... I can get output back from it if I use ":pty :stream", but before I get to EOF, I get a "couldn't read from # Maybe I'm not reading the pty stream correctly? 16:24:53 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 16:24:56 -!- mik8y [~user@122.47.115.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:07 lisppaste: url? 16:25:07 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 16:25:10 paste your code 16:27:16 soverton pasted "can't get pty output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97135 16:27:48 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:28:33 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:37 soverton annotated #97135 "Debugger output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97135#1 16:32:52 Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-54.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:32:54 That example code works fine for non-interactive programs like "ls", but I can only get output from "ssh" through pty. I can read from the pty, but I just get that error instead of an EOF. 16:34:04 Joreji [~thomas@79-187.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:34:15 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-158.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:35:04 same here 16:36:31 -!- jacoblyles [~jacoblyle@ppp-71-128-202-116.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: jacoblyles] 16:39:01 I have scoured the net for any mention of this and came up empty handed. I conclude that either my code is wrong and there is no bug, or there is a bug and no one uses sb-ext:run-program. 16:40:22 everybody use sb-ext:run-program 16:40:35 <_3b`> google code search finds a few calls to run-program, not with both ssh and :pty that i saw though 16:40:39 *Xach* uses sb-ext:run-program 25,000 times per day 16:41:12 Maybe I'm going about this the wrong way, then. I was actually hoping that was the case :) 16:44:33 stassats annotated #97135 "working version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/97135#2 16:44:42 soverton: try this 16:48:08 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:48:20 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:48:21 aCiD3 [~ollie@host86-148-85-157.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:18 Yeah, that's pretty much what I started out with. It just sits there and the thread never exits. I think it's waiting for a password or maybe a passphrase. I'm going to remove the password from the key and see if that helps. 16:49:38 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:45 Hello, I'm trying to practice Lisp for my first time by doing some really simple data processing. I have this so far http://paste.lisp.org/display/97138 but it feels a little verbose with all those explicit (list) calls. The only other option I see is using `() and ,(append-id)... 16:49:48 any advice is welcome! 16:50:02 dto1 [~dto@pool-98-110-208-181.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:58 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 16:51:05 soverton: i used certificate authentication for this example 16:51:41 stassats: let me try that. brb 16:51:47 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-196-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:52:13 aCiD3: Use backquote notation 16:52:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:52:32 dlowe: is that what `() and ,() is called? 16:52:32 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-21-246.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:41 aCiD3: yep 16:52:44 ok, thanks! 16:53:12 aCiD3: You don't need a macro where you have it 16:53:38 aCiD3: just have a function that returns the result of the loop 16:53:50 dlowe: oh? if a function returns multiple lists lisp will use them all? 16:54:09 aCiD3: collect builds a list already :) 16:54:16 in a loop form 16:54:36 -!- chupish [~182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-zvwuoonjluozxnps] has left #lisp 16:54:37 right, but I wasn't sure if I could return it "in place", or if I'd have to unwrap it with multi-let-bind or whatever it's called 16:54:53 but if this function does what I mean, then i'll just do that :) to the repl to play more! 16:54:55 so it will be returning a list of lists just like your macro there 16:55:52 ah, my macro is wrong too then :) The macro should have done a @, -- how can I do that with the function? 16:57:47 never mind, this is all working as expected now. Thanks for your help dlowe! 16:57:51 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-xo.basistech.com] has left #lisp 16:58:00 no prob 16:58:02 stassats: It works when I use "-i .ssh/path-to-key" if the key is unincrypted. That's a starting place. Thank you, stassats! 16:58:02 hopefully this initial retardation passes in a few days of practice :P 16:58:31 s/unincrypted/unencrypted/ 16:58:43 :) 16:58:45 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:51 _macro [~macro@shiva.mochimedia.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:13 HG` [~HG@xdslei201.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:47 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:00:29 -!- soverton [~soverton@75-145-221-229-Memphis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:49 wonderboy [~user@117.207.147.218] has joined #lisp 17:02:01 -!- dcibiel [~dcibiel@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:02:03 *wonderboy* just started "practical common lisp" with slime and sbcl.. 17:02:30 congratulations 17:03:00 documentation for function format says to refer to manual .. but sbcl manual doesn't seem to say about it.. 17:03:00 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:03:19 clhs format 17:03:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 17:03:40 that's C-c C-d h in slime 17:04:50 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslei201.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:09:55 hugod [~hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:10:27 jmbr [~jmbr@127.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:11:54 milanj [~milan@93.86.187.237] has joined #lisp 17:12:27 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.77.254] has joined #lisp 17:14:42 coyo [~unf@99-6-151-42.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:10 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.77.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:18:15 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qgbbcxpafpswiyju] has joined #lisp 17:20:11 asdf25 [~jeff@pool-173-79-236-231.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:08 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-98-110-208-181.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:22:23 wow now thats much better:) i got the hyperspec-0.7.tar.gz downloaded and common-lisp-hyperspec-root pointing to it:) thanks stassats 17:22:33 Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0503.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:22:33 -!- Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0503.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 17:22:33 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 17:23:26 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 17:23:56 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-196-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:57 hello 17:24:05 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: away! away!] 17:26:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:27:01 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 17:32:47 caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:17 -!- LinkFly [~linkfly@94.158.187.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:14 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:26 -!- Guest29247 [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:34:36 wonderboy, in case you are on debian or ubuntu: sudo apt-get install hyperspec 17:35:11 any swiss lispers going to the fribourg meeting? 17:35:49 url? 17:36:01 http://webmardi.ch/doku.php?id=meetings:2010-03-06-web-lisp-clos 17:36:42 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:37:30 thanks for the link. (though looks like I won't be going) 17:37:48 i don't recognize any of the players 17:38:18 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@128.12.250.221] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 17:39:05 it sounds like a very strange event. a combined art exhibition and lisp talk? 17:39:05 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:39:13 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:39:22 aren't they all? performance art, anyway... 17:42:58 attila_lendvai: uh looks like hyperspec license isn't even bsd style ... 17:43:47 wonderboy: Nope. 17:48:10 vezult [~work-davi@75-145-242-25-spotsylvania.va.richmond.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:21 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:53:59 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:47 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:57:38 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 17:58:39 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:03 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:00:05 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-187.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:02:45 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:49 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:19 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:06:24 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:07:17 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:41 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 18:08:25 carlocci [~nes@93.37.176.73] has joined #lisp 18:08:37 tnkrm [~user@c-cafee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:08:42 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.176.73] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:46 -!- caoliver [~oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 18:14:08 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-115-217.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 18:15:04 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082B53A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:54 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082C8F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:18:04 -!- hohum_ is now known as hohum 18:18:26 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:19:32 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:22:47 ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:23:23 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:24:36 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-132-162.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:24:42 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:30:05 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:33:59 ephcon [~ephcon@n250-50.mtholyoke.edu] has joined #lisp 18:34:00 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@n250-50.mtholyoke.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:36:10 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:38:40 pkhuong: What do you mean? 18:38:57 francogrex [~user@124.131-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:42:47 I was referring to your conversation with maden. 18:43:29 pkhuong: Ah, I see! Of course, yes! 18:43:52 pkhuong: All you have to do is introduce some Lisp-based courses in the undergrad program. 18:44:03 there are, at umontreal. 18:44:28 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.137.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:44:30 pkhuong: Believe it or not, I am actually glad to hear that! 18:45:13 gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:45:17 [oh, and good evening everyone, and apologies to the Bx students; I have been busy all day] 18:46:21 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:21 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:46:21 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 18:47:10 And thanks to the #lisp participants who helped them out. 18:47:14 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:36 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:54:21 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:28 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qgbbcxpafpswiyju] has left #lisp 18:54:30 ramus [~ramus@99.23.143.180] has joined #lisp 18:54:51 Hi, did anyone succeed in having slime work with ecl lisp? 18:55:55 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:56:46 sure 18:57:03 make sure to use a very recent version of both 18:57:55 and build ECL with threads and unicode. 19:00:15 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:04:09 dabr [~dabr@116-108.79-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:04:54 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 19:06:58 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:08:35 you should not need either 19:08:52 plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-132-162.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:55 I think I tested without either 19:09:38 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-43-54.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:11:17 tcr ok thanks 19:11:34 I think it's because i was trying with an older ECL version 19:11:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:12:25 tcr: we'll see about that! 19:13:54 ah, I could see not needing threads if you run it imprisoned within emacs 19:14:32 yeah different story for remote server 19:15:21 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@rescomp-09-162682.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 19:16:21 I'm surprised about unicode, though. Was the C-c C-k thing fixed? 19:17:18 sure 19:19:11 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:19:12 -!- TeMPOraL [~temporal@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Quit: .•«UPP»•.] 19:20:25 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has joined #lisp 19:25:41 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:56 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:28:17 -!- zan-xhipe [~user@41.133.107.78] has left #lisp 19:32:26 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:33:09 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 19:33:57 carlocci [~nes@93.37.176.73] has joined #lisp 19:35:06 gonzojive_ [~red@adsl-76-204-79-74.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:10 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 19:40:26 Guthur [~Michael@host81-131-241-198.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:35 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:29 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-196-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:45:51 prxq [~mommer@f052126063.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:58 hi 19:46:04 sepult` [~user@xdsl-78-35-196-236.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:46:57 jsnell: around? 19:47:05 dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:47:26 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:47:46 *p_l* thinks he once got slime running with ECL/msvc 19:48:45 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@127.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:50:30 mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:51:46 any of the sbcl project admins around? 19:53:52 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 19:55:46 -!- dabr [~dabr@116-108.79-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:03:01 -!- wonderboy [~user@117.207.147.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:04:29 TeMPOraL [~temporal@178.182.49.23.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:05:44 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:38 hello 20:08:13 -!- mk2 [~user@159.92.64.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:42 hi Krystof 20:08:44 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-186-237.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:09:09 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 20:09:30 davazp [~user@147.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:46 Krystof: do you think it is possible for me to get write access to the sbcl-page cvs repo? 20:10:28 so I can bump the version of the x86-64 binary to 1.0.37 20:10:50 yes 20:11:01 probably that gets you write access to everything 20:11:03 christoph_debian [~christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:04 I hate sourceforge 20:11:30 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 20:11:39 i'll stay clear of anything else. That goes without saying. 20:13:10 -!- tnkrm [~user@c-cafee255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 20:13:10 prxq: eh ? 20:13:52 prxq: no, please, fix all the bugs :-) 20:14:01 'tis done 20:14:09 Krystof: thanks :-) 20:14:57 fe[nl]ix: i uploaded current binaries for x86-64, and want to fix the version in the web page 20:15:28 Krystof: the html generation happens via cron at some point, right? 20:16:18 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-195.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:16:51 prxq: sorry, I misunderstood you :) 20:17:02 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 20:17:55 prxq: ah, no 20:18:05 :-) 20:18:14 the html generation happens on your machine, with (sbcl-page::generate-pages) 20:18:28 then you rsync the generated files to m_mommer,sbcl@... 20:18:34 it's sortof documented in a README 20:18:37 aha... 20:18:38 ok 20:18:47 clhs defvar 20:18:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm 20:20:11 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.18.80.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:02 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-252-170-201.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:12 Krystof: i still get permission denied when I try to checkout via ssh 20:24:00 prxq: I would imagine that the permissions are probably implemented on a delay 20:24:23 I can probably update the website for now 20:25:18 maybe next month you will be lucky 20:25:20 x86-64/linux? 20:26:59 right 20:27:17 (define-port :x86-64 :linux :available "1.0.29" :release 2) 20:27:39 becomes (define-port :x86-64 :linux :available "1.0.37") 20:27:42 iiuc 20:28:09 yes 20:28:10 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:17 'tis uploaded 20:28:47 thanks. 20:28:49 ! 20:28:51 thank you 20:29:55 Krystof: you are welcome! i owe you guys quite a bit! 20:30:25 That photoshop plugin Xach blogged about sounds reasonably amazing 20:33:11 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:34:46 could anyone explain to me why we have (nth number list), but (elt sequence number) - why parameter order is not consequent 20:34:47 ? 20:34:48 :| 20:35:29 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 20:35:43 I would imagine that ELT is by analogy with AREF. 20:35:45 Hmm..general performance question. I moved sbcl and all that to OSX and am rerunning my script which parses a 30 meg file into chunks. Basically it turns out to be a list where each element is a fairly large amount of text. I did a top, sorted by memory, and found that sbcl has 29501225+ page faults, far more than anything else on the system and it's rising rapidly. I don't know much about page faults, but could this be an issue 20:35:45 with performance for me? 20:36:19 SBCL, like any other system with a write-barrier, page-faults often. 20:37:19 TeMPOraL: history, I think 20:38:08 heh, history :( one of the strongest excuse for not getting something fixed in computer science 20:38:18 like with A20 gates on motherboards 20:38:19 TeMPOraL: who cares? use ELT. 20:38:21 TeMPOraL: don't be silly 20:38:23 ;) 20:38:51 nyef: Ah, can't say I know much about write-barrier or anything like that, I'll google further. 20:39:06 Wait, A20 gates on motherboards? Didn't those get moved to the chipsets ages back? 20:39:29 ISTR an A20 line gate option on the bloody 430MX chipset, and that was a decade ago or something. 20:40:51 I like NTH's argument order. I never use NTH, but I do use NTH-VALUE, and you almost certainly want the numeric argument first there. 20:41:33 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:41:49 I hate it that there's no first-value, second-value etc 20:42:02 (nth-value 1 (foo)) being the secondary value is just... odd 20:42:25 never bothered me 20:43:04 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-18-192.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 20:43:28 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 20:43:30 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:34 I ought to introduce primary-value, secondary-value, tertiary-value :-) 20:43:56 :D 20:44:50 that asdf talk is crazy :-) I feel pity for juanjo 20:45:47 tcr: where? 20:47:45 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:31 asdf-devel, ecl-devel 20:48:31 off topic, but perhaps interesting. Question: in what year was the latest algol 68 implementation released? 20:49:04 *hefner* doesn't understand why anyone cares about ASDF or build tools at all, but it really seems to bring out the bozos and blowhards 20:49:10 prxq: is that a trick question ? this year ? 20:49:20 fe[nl]ix: 2009 20:50:05 2011 20:50:05 good for them 20:50:51 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:56:07 -!- glogic [~rm@174.143.215.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:57:14 frontiers [~jackb@139.79-160-22.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:18 tcr: I felt the same way about Juanjo 20:57:42 ehu: why ? 20:58:35 because I think he's not going to achieve anything the way it's discussed now. 20:59:54 it's more basic than that 21:00:50 many have little sympathy for wanting to use the "UNIX way of doing" in a CL implementation 21:01:15 aka FASLs being ELF objects, no dumping but static compilation, etc... 21:01:40 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:55 me included 21:02:29 I think coming into a group and saying "hey, others think you should not exist, I think you should, but you should be doing other things." doesn't help your case ; no matter what you want to achieve 21:02:43 I think he's doing a great job with ECL, but I think ECL has its limits. 21:02:43 Static compilation means clean builds 21:03:11 been bitten regularly that I have force reloading a system because of whatever 21:03:21 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:03:29 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 21:03:31 having a compiler in lisp probably means you can't really do it the Unix way, because everyone becomes a developer. 21:03:53 or just try to work on sbcl itself and you see what it leads to (says the frustrated sbcl wannabe hacker) 21:04:04 (as in shoving off the hard bits to a release manager) 21:04:43 ECL has its limits, but it clearly has its unique strengths 21:05:06 ehu; I don't understand what do you have against juanjo and ECL? 21:05:36 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:06:35 ECL's strongest points for me is of course it's C embedding capability. though now less of an issue with other lisps because of cffi etc 21:06:52 minion: thwap to francogrex 21:06:53 francogrex: have a look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 21:08:01 francogrex: i don't think sbcl+cffi (for example) can achieve the same level of integration. 21:08:17 I like to use it because I can make dlls with it 21:08:26 francogrex: I don't have anything against him; I feel pity. ECL works quite well, but I think the goal it's trying to achieve is too broad for the development community it has. 21:08:28 prxq: yes I agree 21:08:53 but requiring a compiler to be installed is quite a requirement, for example on Windows. 21:09:09 ehu: don't you think it already has achieved its (it's:) goals? 21:09:59 no. because Juanjo himself explains how it's broken in different ways on different platforms. 21:10:01 my only beef against the latest versions, they seem to have lost important features from previous releases 21:10:17 ehu: yes that iagree with you there 21:10:38 francogrex: which features? 21:10:39 it's quite crippled on windows at least in its latest vesrions 21:10:40 I mean, others will say the same thing about me. 21:10:51 *ehu* maintains ABCL 21:10:58 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:11:03 and about SBCL. 21:11:22 but I don't think I can do ABCL on 7 platforms *and* take on the world. 21:11:40 yow, pkhuong, sb-concurrency is there, now get your stuff out to the world :-) 21:11:52 prxq: well on windows, some examples: the init files, the ffi etc... are all bad in latest versions 21:12:36 pkhuong: and our semaphores suck truly :-) 21:12:42 heh. 21:13:45 Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-2-74.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:13:56 but anyway, I am one person (there are only few of us) who are against releasing new versions so frequently. 21:14:02 i don't suppose any of them will let me call my multithreaded c program as a library without significant problems? 21:14:29 was told it was a bad idea on sbcl 21:14:30 francogrex: that can be solved by having a stable and an unstable version 21:14:30 pkhuong: universite de montreal really has a lisp introduction course? 21:14:31 pkhuong: take a look at test-mailbox.lisp, the function stress tests the mailbox, and you can specify #producers, and #consumers. #p>>#c is pretty bad because the few receivers won't get the semaphore lock 21:14:36 francogrex: new versions of what? ECL? 21:14:46 *francogrex* also doesn't like releasing new specs versions; I like traditional old fashioned ways 21:15:00 "specs versions"? 21:15:03 luis: sorry you keep getting asked this :) but what is the setup for cffi on abcl? 21:15:23 prxq: i mean cltl3 or whatever 21:15:29 Hm, we gotta gather some contention statistics 21:15:36 but let's not get into that now 21:15:42 ehu: i think it is great that abcl exists. i don't use it, though. 21:15:49 hefner: yes 21:16:04 prxq: thanks :-) 21:16:05 luis: ah, http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/darcs/cffi/src/cffi-abcl.lisp 21:16:11 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-71-195.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:16:33 -!- JohnnyL [excellent_@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 21:16:44 ok guys; gtg now 21:16:48 francogrex: I'll agree with that. I'm not sure who actually cares about the released versions, other than juanjo. I'm always running random versions from git. 21:17:03 It's nice for PR 21:17:08 :-) 21:17:17 no, not only for PR 21:17:35 hefner: yes, i'm quite happy with version 0.9l or something that is from 2008; good enough for me 21:17:41 hefner: ever since I started releasing regularly with ABCL, the measurable usage (as in blog-followers, downloads, etc) has gone up. 21:18:31 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 21:19:10 maybe juanjo needs a hand or two 21:20:22 ehu: not surprising, there was a notion that ABCL was dead once piso started on XCL, and the announcements help combat that and draw attention to it. That said, I see "release coming soon" mails to ecls-list, but never know if/when the release really happens (I guess I don't follow the right list for that, and no one else makes much noise about it) 21:20:44 hefner: apparently, ECL 10.3.1 was released recently 21:20:49 at least the /topic thinks so 21:20:58 hah. 21:21:02 probably more recently than sbcl 1.0.36, so about a month ago 21:21:33 prxq: I think he even expressed that himself. 21:22:11 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:32 hefner: true. and piso was quite harsh on how well ABCL worked. meaning nobody ever considered it ready to build applications upon. 21:22:32 then again, I'm the one who advocates periodically bumping version numbers and "releasing" software, just as a measure against the idiots who say things "[foo] is dead, it hasn't had a release in [x] months!" 21:22:50 oh. I'm with you on that. 21:23:04 something hat would be nice for ABCL is to vett Jasko's eclipse integration with ABCL 21:23:22 prxq: maybe, or maybe not. why are we so intent on constant improvements on trying to make quantum leaps so frequently? a little bit of maintenance here and there every once in a while is good enough 21:23:26 since Jasko has arrived :) 21:23:42 francogrex: you are right. 21:24:31 i got it going a few years ago withg his help.. but inteads of SBCL.. one could use a fully installable solution 21:24:42 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:24:42 -!- mcdonji [~user@173-203-206-96.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:51 francogrex: so, why not package those improvements into releases? 21:24:53 but it is true that one looks at commit/release history to deduce liveness of a project. 21:24:56 that would greatly increase ABCLs use 21:25:53 one of the best things that whn did for sbcl, and he did lots of good things, was the monthly release trick 21:25:58 some projects could use a "everything seems fine" line in the NEWS file every month or so :-) 21:26:07 ehu: it's ok but one has to keep in mind the "benefit-risk" profile of a new release 21:26:16 I mean, you still get people complaining that we don't do anything about our windows port 21:26:23 but at least there's no question that Stuff Is Happening 21:26:54 Krystof: it is automated somehow? 21:27:16 Krystof: right. you don't need huge improvements in that kind of time frame. 21:27:24 What about a no report bugs message, going hand in hand with an issues log? 21:27:43 Krystof: but those improvements/ fixes that are being done will get available to the wider community. 21:27:43 -!- vezult [~work-davi@75-145-242-25-spotsylvania.va.richmond.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:28:23 if your new release will fix a feature but at the same time muck up 50 others that were working just fine, where is the cost-benefit thinking in that strategy? 21:28:37 i wonder what happens if you just package the same stuff as in the last version with a new version number and a "tested on current implementations" line in the NEWS file. Would that be objectionable? 21:28:43 udzinari: only if by "automated" you mean "done relatively without thinking" 21:28:47 francogrex: The sooner you know that the features are broken, the sooner they can be fixed? 21:28:52 francogrex: that's why I think Juanjo isn't doing it the right way with ECL. 21:29:19 francogrex: I think you want gradual improvements, small steps to reduce the chances of stuff getting broken. 21:29:33 ehu: agree 21:29:54 francogrex: I chose bi-monthly releases for ABCL because my development community is too small to warrent the monthly interval SBCL is on. 21:30:02 nyef: unfortunately doesn't always work that way 21:30:07 but bi-monthly is great for gradual improvement. 21:30:39 -!- abend [~alx@67.136.131.11] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:31:39 ehu: I might be drastic but I think juanjo should roll back to a version from 2008 or so and start all over again taking it easy (but I won't suggest that to him) 21:32:00 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:32:07 ehu: I think your approach is quite good 21:33:15 thanks, that's good to hear. It's not really easy to find the right approach: there's very little feedback. 21:33:34 francogrex: that sounds drastic indeed 21:34:04 but that makes me wonder: how come say one implementation gets more community help that another (think about the % of sbcl developers versus ecl developers)? what factors play a role, 21:34:31 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-111-248.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:35:44 surely that's a rhetorical question? 21:36:05 ehu: no 21:36:07 francogrex: One of the factors is implementation quality, and another is having a significant amount of the mindshare on one or more common places to ask for recommendations on which lisp to use. 21:37:12 nyef: so it's a matter of personal taste you partly as well? 21:37:22 I bet if you apply SBCL's % users-as-developers to the number of ECL users, it rounds down to zero 21:37:53 hefner: that didn't parse 21:37:59 hefner: it's too late for complex maths 21:38:04 oh good, it wasn't just me 21:38:12 made sense to me 21:38:15 francogrex: When I got started, the obvious common lisp implementation for me to pick, for whatever reason, was CMUCL. 21:38:29 but: I wrote a paper for "Self-sustaining Systems" about one way of thinking about software sustainability 21:38:50 francogrex: And I stuck with it, in a way, ever since. Of course, that way has been SBCL, but still... 21:39:01 the assertion is that if x% of sbcl users are also sbcl developers, x% of ecl users < 0.5% 21:39:06 nyef: ok understandable 21:39:14 basically: think of the software as symbiotic with its developers. So things that you can do to make it easier to acquire new developers will increase the sustainability, visibility of the software 21:39:23 this analogy can be continued and made marginally more interesting 21:39:34 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:35 (things like minimum population for disease-resistance, etc) 21:39:40 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-252-165.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 21:39:57 jsnell: i'm afraid i didn't get that 21:39:58 jsnell: well, you may think that your sentence makes sense too 21:40:01 I assure you it doesn't :-) 21:40:09 *hefner* didn't understand it either :) 21:40:11 ignore the extra "% at the end 21:40:16 ah. 21:40:35 we all need a good sleep I guess 21:40:47 ok. now all we need to do is define "users" and "developers" 21:41:00 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 21:41:10 -!- prxq [~mommer@f052126063.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: testing francogrex's conjecture. Good night!] 21:41:10 -!- francogrex [~user@124.131-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: see you later] 21:43:19 -!- Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [] 21:45:38 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:46:03 attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.204.143] has joined #lisp 21:50:22 netytan [~netytan@85.211.47.172] has joined #lisp 21:51:50 -!- hugod [~hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 21:53:54 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host102-108-dynamic.40-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:57:32 -!- asdf25 [~jeff@pool-173-79-236-231.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:57:50 I'm about .5% developer these days. 21:59:06 -!- silenius [~silenius@i59F765C1.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:59:32 -!- netytan [~netytan@85.211.47.172] has quit [Quit: netytan] 22:00:48 attila_lendvai_ [~ati@89.135.200.248] has joined #lisp 22:02:20 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756eff.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.204.143] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:04:17 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 22:04:54 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:08:08 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:44 pjb [~t@81.202.18.80.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:50 harovali [~harovali@r190-135-23-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:10:32 hi ! has anyone tried CLPYTHON ? I find the idea very neat 22:10:51 ben_m [~ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:10:57 Greetings! :) 22:11:14 Does anyone know of a lisp mentor for gsoc 2010? 22:14:09 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:28 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:14:40 ben_m: AFAIK there are no lisp organizations in this year's gsoc 22:14:55 daw :( 22:17:35 HET3 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:44 which lisp has the largest representable char code clisp or sbcl? 22:20:40 also trying which has better/complete char names 22:22:00 (code-char 65536) => #\LINEAR_B_SYLLABLE_B008_A clisp goodness 22:22:32 well both are just as good there 22:22:45 works the same on SBCL (and looks like a waste of memory to me. where do these character names come from?) 22:22:48 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:38 not sure /mne googling 22:25:01 <_3b`> clhs char-code-limit 22:25:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_char_c.htm 22:26:00 *_3b`* gets 1114112 (full unicode) from both 22:26:02 both impls are 1114112 22:26:04 -!- ben_m [~ben@chello084113058207.12.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 22:26:32 i am working on bringing LarKC lisp up to the rest 22:27:04 usig bits and peices of ABCL which was trying to reresent with java chars.. now i am using ints 22:27:44 jmbr [~jmbr@127.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:27:48 does LarKC follow improvements in ABCL and/or vice-versa? 22:28:11 yes see http://code.google.com/r/logicmoo-invoke-interface/source/list 22:28:18 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:28:21 what about uabcl? an Common-Lisp-in-Java? 22:28:51 when i get good stability (RCs) i commit to LarKC 22:29:31 uabcl was made before LarKC was opensourced. 22:29:41 care to add larkc support to ASDF? 22:30:12 adding ASDF to LarKC :P 22:30:38 but i think i know what you mean.. what i have to do.. part of what i am doing is definingparameters of "what larkc is" 22:31:10 pretty much it is all the plugins and pipelines getting erxposed to Lisp 22:31:36 the problem would be how other non hybrid systems can leverage lark the best 22:31:55 the cheapo ASDF i was about to talk about 22:32:03 Fare, whats up with xcvb, how come pulling its git repo doesn't fetch any changes? 22:32:36 the cheapo ASDF letting new LarKC plugins instlled to LarKC via the normnal ASDF 22:33:09 -!- rares [~rares@174-26-95-234.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:33:40 rares [~rares@174-26-95-234.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:41 Fare: you meant making LarKC services somethjing installable to all lisps right? 22:34:03 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-132-162.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:09 Fare: you are right in asking for that.. in that it will actually be very usefull 22:34:09 marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.113] has joined #lisp 22:34:39 attila_lendvai, I've broken everything a month or two ago, and have been working locally ever since, instead of committing broken code upstream. 22:34:43 HET4 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:34:46 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:53 I should probably have worked in a branch, but was too lazy to learn how to do that. 22:35:47 Fare: the angle i been attacking at is making it possible for LarKC plugin developers able to use a full common lisp and still not give up their current Lisp impl.. meaning keeping programming compatibvlity between both lisp impls 22:36:03 Fare, ok, thanks for the update! just wanted to know what's up... 22:36:09 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:26 possibly efrcing --ansi flag if they want their current code to stop working 22:36:55 hefner: The char-code names in SBCL are stored huffman-compressed, I believe. 22:37:44 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:50 attila_lendvai, I'll update the mailing-list when I merge my changes in 22:37:52 sorry about that 22:39:40 oh another thing UABCL.. once i get the logicmoo-invoke-interface re-vetted to run on .NET again going to make UABCL use the new codebase 22:40:07 since UABCL was based on LarKC closed sourceness 22:41:04 rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:53 -!- linus5 [~user@dyn-160-39-42-66.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:34 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:37 Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0503.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:49:37 -!- Madsy [~madman@ti0207a340-0503.bb.online.no] has quit [Changing host] 22:49:37 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 22:50:02 nicdev [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 22:51:34 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:54:08 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8FB4.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:55:56 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-146-156.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:56:16 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:56:40 -!- milanj [~milan@93.86.187.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:57:30 lnostdal [~6dbd4e2b@gateway/web/freenode/x-cknxxjxxfuoyzpux] has joined #lisp 23:01:24 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 23:02:10 lnostdal_ [~6dbd4e2b@gateway/web/freenode/x-skoubrdkahjitzpe] has joined #lisp 23:02:50 -!- lnostdal [~6dbd4e2b@gateway/web/freenode/x-cknxxjxxfuoyzpux] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:03:11 newfurniturey [~joey@74.93.195.210] has joined #lisp 23:06:52 -!- lnostdal_ [~6dbd4e2b@gateway/web/freenode/x-skoubrdkahjitzpe] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:09:09 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-173.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:09:29 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-120-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:03 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:23:51 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.72.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:26:40 gwynddyllyd [~fintn@201.29.220.12] has joined #lisp 23:31:45 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d557540-CM00222d55753d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:25 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1279375297.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:32:44 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:34:56 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-186-237.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:38:26 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:43 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:43 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-65-219-212-221.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:39:43 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:39:45 lnostdal [~6dbd4e2b@gateway/web/freenode/x-fbcddorfgwvlsqcl] has joined #lisp 23:41:08 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 23:41:31 -!- harovali [~harovali@r190-135-23-99.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 23:41:43 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.16.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:42:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@89.135.200.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:42:57 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:52 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.48] has joined #lisp 23:47:02 -!- HET3 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:49:16 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:32 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:52:15 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-71-247-120-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:52 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport2.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 23:52:54 -!- aCiD3 [~ollie@host86-148-85-157.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:40 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-114.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:11 -!- Edward_ [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-2-74.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 23:59:25 Makoryu [~vt920@ool-4a599a98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp