00:00:58 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-30-82-253-128-47.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:01:48 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-209-188.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:02:19 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-28-252.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:03:51 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-153-209.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:04:17 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:04:19 -!- gruseom [~daniel@d206-75-29-17.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:05:41 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-160-44-109.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:41 -!- bipt` [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:08:46 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-254.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:55 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-153-209.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:50 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:47 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-37-82-253-43-245.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:23 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:15:09 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:34 -!- faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:16:52 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-42-145.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:18:50 benny [~benny@i577A880C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:18:53 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-50-151.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:19:40 bipt` [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:20 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:51 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441854.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:34:42 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.129.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:35:17 ramus [~ramus@99.23.137.96] has joined #lisp 00:37:00 minion: Are you there? 00:37:02 maybe 00:37:11 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:37:53 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:08 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:39 clim transform-distance 00:38:39 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/5-3.html#_218 00:39:35 Right, that's minimally functional, I guess. 00:41:59 So, it's trivial to create an affine transformation that distorts angles. 00:42:50 All you do is set up a skew, such as (make-transformation 1 1 0.5 1). 00:44:37 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-2263.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:44:45 Ohh... I think I see now. 00:46:22 The third co-ordinate has to be Z, not 1, to even create such a scenario. 00:46:32 -!- jao [~jao@248.Red-88-6-165.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:38 -!- nyef_ [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Battery really -is- low this time.] 00:47:02 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:34 rodt1 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:32 -!- rodt [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:52:41 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:54:39 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 00:54:44 pjb` [~t@95.124.37.67] has joined #lisp 00:55:19 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:55:25 jao [~jao@248.Red-88-6-165.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:13 -!- pjb [~t@95.124.37.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:56:37 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-8170.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 00:57:55 *stassats* made a little DWIM for undefined functions 00:58:04 let's see how useful it is 00:58:17 Does it involve reliable undefined-function restarts? 00:58:51 *nyef* doesn't remember if reliable use-value restarts was a pain for the function case or the variable case, but doesn't believe it was both. 00:58:57 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 00:59:26 it provides a restart with levenstein-closest function name 01:00:05 So, you need a use-value restart that works in the first place? 01:00:13 -!- jao [~jao@248.Red-88-6-165.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 01:00:24 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:00:35 (You know, one of these days we really should implement that for SBCL.) 01:00:37 well, no, i redefined sbcl's sb-impl::%coerce-name-to-fun 01:00:50 Would you like to know where that falls down? 01:01:05 where? 01:01:17 Compile-time. 01:02:42 i mostly intended it for the repl 01:03:39 i mistyped some function name, was angry and sleepy to correct it... and spent more than half an our on figuring out how to make that restart 01:03:44 Fair enough. 01:04:02 -!- rodt1 is now known as rodt 01:05:03 but in the end, i know more about restart-bind, never used it before 01:05:29 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:05:38 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 01:06:52 asnark [~asnark@68.185.201.142] has joined #lisp 01:07:56 at compile-time you would need also to correct the source code, so it's not as useful 01:08:12 (which is doable with slime, but harder) 01:08:26 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:31 At the point where you can correct the source code, it's arguably -more- useful. 01:09:53 _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-xjtsenkvtefdjdwm] has joined #lisp 01:09:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: Zzz] 01:10:30 i now see the same is true for the REPL, correcting it in the history would be good it 01:10:36 <_rata_> hi again 01:10:36 s/last it/too/ 01:10:45 stassats, have you seen that code bubbles IDE stuff? 01:10:55 -!- asnark [~asnark@68.185.201.142] has left #lisp 01:11:20 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:11:20 deepfire: i saw the first 10 seconds of the video and then got bored, so no 01:12:13 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:12:22 I watched it through and got an impression that with CL it would've worked especially good. 01:12:24 *_3b* has wanted something like that for a while 01:12:39 Because so much more information is available. 01:12:44 <_3b> the workflow that is, not sure about the actual ui 01:13:32 stassats, there's a lot of stuff in this video, it's not shallow. 01:14:05 I.e. it's much more than an IDE-geared WM. 01:14:06 deepfire: but i'm easily bored! maybe i'll watch it later 01:14:48 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441854.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 01:15:25 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441854.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:16:26 *_3b* wonders how hard it would be to hack that window grouping stuff into emacs or eclipsewm 01:20:30 <_3b> i guess emacs probably doesn't do irregularly shaped windows though, so that probably wouldn't work well 01:21:01 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:21:19 I don't think that this is the largest problem. 01:23:28 *_3b* didn't actually pay very close attention to the video, so doesn't know much beyond that part :) 01:23:38 deepfire: which video are you talking about? 01:23:58 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:39 Fade, lambda-the-ultimate has a very recent post about it. 01:24:45 thanks 01:25:05 http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/acb/codebubbles_site.htm 01:25:54 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:25:55 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 01:27:01 oh, i'd need to download it, because flash can't play 1080p here normally 01:27:12 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 01:28:24 would be also interesting to look at Interlisp environment 01:28:36 I have no flash frob at all. :P 01:29:12 stassats, you can clive it 01:29:24 and then mplayer, I guess. 01:29:24 ephcon [~ephcon@ppp-71-139-8-94.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:52 it downloads an flv into /tmp, i mplayer it then 01:29:55 saikat [~saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:17 (the flash itself) 01:31:31 apt-get install clive; clive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsPX0nElJ0k -- does it 01:31:46 is it written in CL? 01:31:54 no :-/ 01:32:16 but has a clish name 01:32:31 It's perl, unfortunately. 01:32:49 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-4-254.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 01:32:52 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:35:13 Hmm, cliving gets me a non-HD version. 01:35:40 I guess the /tmp method wins then. 01:35:53 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-153-209.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:35:58 jesu. clive has 28 dependencies not already installed on my machine. 01:36:49 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@ppp-71-139-8-94.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:37:08 first thing i see from this video is that you'd need bigger displays and more displays 01:38:13 They demonstrate panning and saved contexts towards the end. 01:38:30 But in general, yes, it's screen-estate-intensive. 01:38:32 ephcon [~ephcon@ppp-71-139-8-94.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.94.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:20 Take in mind that despite being poished this is a product of research, straight out of the lab. 01:40:36 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-38-6.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:44 three head setups are already pretty much standard around my office. 01:40:56 I doubt that is a trend that's going to slow down or decline any time soon. 01:42:30 *stassats* looks at his lone 15" display 01:42:55 I haven't even *seen* a 15" head since 1998 or so. 01:43:15 even the heads on our crashcarts in the machine room are 19" lcds. 01:43:22 <_3b> Fade: laptops? 01:43:43 I was picturing a Sony 15sf 01:44:00 a 15" laptop is going to have at least a wxga screen. 01:44:11 <_3b> which is that? 01:44:28 <_3b> 1300x700 or whatever seems to be most of them :/ 01:45:31 32", on which i watch movies, isn't really comfortable for writing code in Emacs 01:49:27 stassats, well, there could be a sweet spot in between 15" and 32", no? 01:50:19 there is, but i don't have it 01:50:34 spcartman [~db6ef68f@gateway/web/freenode/x-rmqpnuhzlkqdaacj] has joined #lisp 01:50:59 *_3b* added a 1920x1080 lcd for ~$150 a while back 01:51:09 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 01:52:08 maybe not seeing the code all the time will train memory 01:52:20 <_3b> could be 01:52:50 -!- Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:53:00 or "if you need to see it, your API is bad" 01:53:04 *_3b* tends to not actually end up with much code onto the 2nd monitor too often 01:53:53 arglist display is usually enough to remember how to use something 01:53:54 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:57 <_3b> nice to be able tomove stuff out of the way of the code and keep it accessible though 01:54:14 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:54:14 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 01:54:42 <_3b> yeah, wouldn't be surprised if i use it more for debugging than coding 01:55:55 -!- ljames [~ln@unaffiliated/ljames] has quit [] 01:56:01 <_3b> that or working on multiple things in parallel... fix the client here, fix the server over there, check stuff in the repl on the other side, etc 01:59:18 I could see a system like that working really well in a windowing environment like stumpwm. 01:59:34 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 01:59:35 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:00:36 it's really hard to say what's better, there should be a blind-study with an EEG connected, performance measurement and so on 02:01:09 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-38-6.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:01:20 ikki [~ikki@189.139.94.224] has joined #lisp 02:01:30 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:01:38 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:02:40 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-66-164.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 02:03:13 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-78-235.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:22 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:38 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-128-5.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:31 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:09:00 lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:09:13 -!- saikat [~saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:57 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:10:36 saikat [~saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:39 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:13:03 -!- Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.66.103] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 02:13:13 What is the best way to install SBCL, Emacs23, SLIME, and stumpwm so that they can be easily kept up to date with the latest versions? 02:13:28 minion: please tell lat about clbuild 02:13:29 lat: look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 02:13:33 -!- saikat [~saikat@adsl-76-228-82-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:14:07 except for emacs23, but you wouldn't probably need to update it so often 02:17:09 stassats`, if should I first remove the programs if they have been installed another way? or will they be overwritten by clbuild? 02:17:44 if you have slime installed from apt-get, purge it beforehand 02:17:53 others shouldn't matter 02:17:55 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:18:04 purge slime and cl-swank 02:19:06 stassats`, many thanks! 02:21:22 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 02:22:45 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:23:50 Lycurgus [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:25:18 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:06 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:31:22 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:32:16 Anyone can recommend a good way to sanitize a pathname coming from an untrusted source? (e.g. (format nil "/user/sand/box/area/~a" unsafe-path)) 02:32:29 where unsafe-path could contain, "../" 02:33:20 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 02:33:21 <_3b> chroot? :p 02:34:25 heh. that's like coming with a bazooka to a fist fight, no? =) 02:34:32 <_3b> possibly something involving truename and enough-namestring could work 02:34:53 <_3b> (or just string comparing the base path to the truename of the combined path) 02:35:19 good idea. 02:35:23 <_3b> also depends on whether it can contain ../ and still be valid 02:35:45 <_3b> like foo/../bar vs ../../somewhere/bad 02:35:46 no, I'm not splitting hairs. if there's a .. I'm assuming it's malicious 02:35:46 (pathname-match-p (truename pathanme) "/sandbox/*.*") ? 02:36:12 <_3b> yeah, that would be better than enough-namestring 02:36:22 why's that? 02:37:22 doesn't look like it's working with subdirectories 02:37:35 pathname-match-p, that is 02:37:52 <_3b> **/*.* maybe? 02:37:57 <_3b> or whatever the syntax was 02:38:15 that's better 02:38:45 i'm never sure with pathnames 02:40:06 hmm. I like it. you can actually put in ..'s in there and it won't complain. 02:40:22 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:27 <_3b> thoughi guess truename only works for existing files 02:40:34 I'm weary of this though. what do you guys think? Is this canonical enough? I mean, I remember this having been a major exploit vector in NT back in the day 02:41:12 <_3b> well, at least you do't have to worry about unicode normalization tricks :) 02:41:26 <_3b> so just searching for .. might be enough 02:42:12 drewc annotated #96381 "EPIC annotation ... is that concise/clear/easy enough?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96381#3 02:42:54 _3b: ^^ 02:43:15 <_3b> drewc: too many :initform :p 02:43:46 *drewc* shakes his fist at _3b 02:44:07 i knew i should have added the final macro layer! :) 02:44:09 I wonder how deep truename goes. 02:44:16 <_3b> actually looks sort of what i have though, aside from that 02:44:54 (and also wonder if truename is prone to attack) 02:45:08 probably not (famous last words =)) 02:45:12 well, i got pretty close to the syntax ljames what asking for without a codewalker... and it's not hairy at all, the code is quite clean. 02:45:15 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-21-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 02:45:32 I'm actually quite happy with it, and will find a use for it in the future for sure. 02:45:43 <_3b> yeah, code walker is a bit much, mine just uses a big ugly macro (and bunch of smaller ugly helper macros) 02:46:14 if we had a light syntax for lambda, i would not have required macros at all 02:46:41 well, defclass is a macro, but you know what i mean. 02:46:45 <_3b> right 02:47:07 also, i snuck a proper use of PROGV in there 02:48:27 but ljames is gone so i can't say 'see, there's a good implementation of what you wanted, _and_ a proper use of progv', which was his original question IIRC :P 02:48:37 <_3b> heh 02:49:16 *_3b* wonders how much overhead the plist stuff adds 02:50:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.94.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:50:20 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.211] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:50:35 ikki [~ikki@189.139.220.129] has joined #lisp 02:51:19 not much really... enough that the trade off is worth it for $GET, IMO, which i found really nice 02:51:37 also, i got a chance to try out the $ convention for macros ... i liked it a lot 02:51:44 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 02:51:46 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-8170.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:51:55 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 02:51:59 i wish i could get away with doing that in non-dsl code. 02:53:51 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:55:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:59:17 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:59:21 -!- bohunm [~mbohun@202.124.74.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:59:35 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.39] has joined #lisp 02:59:47 _3b: do you have something like $GET in my example.. a way to access the slots of the things being parsed? 03:01:08 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:02:22 7 hours, 41 minutes ago <---- yikes... why can't i hack all day like that when people are paying me to do it! 03:02:42 i guess i just like parsers 03:02:46 <_3b> sort of, for optional fields, i just bind the previous fields as local vars in the reader 03:03:30 <_3b> and for derived fields (more or less the opposite of optional... the field with the flag saying of the optional field is there, that sort of thing) i have an option to name the object being written 03:04:03 <_3b> (at least i think i use locals, it may actually use plists too) 03:04:21 -!- matehat [~matehat@poste111-167.wl.t.ulaval.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:04:28 <_3b> or maybe it was locals for current object, and plist for fields from super classes or something 03:04:35 i use a plist of symbols that i progv... this way nesting will work 03:04:40 *_3b* doesn't really remember how that stuff works 03:04:53 i suppose let-binding a plist is the same idea 03:05:04 why didn't i do that? 03:05:13 So, you know what'd be neat? A DWIM parser generator. Feed it some sample input, it comes up with some notion of output, and then you change the output or add more inputs and it changes things to do what you mean... 03:05:16 oh yeah, progv was on topic 03:06:14 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:18 <_3b> http://github.com/3b/3b-swf/blob/master/low-level/swf-deftype.lisp#L124 <- the macro in question, warning, may cause loss of SAN 03:06:41 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:07:05 well... that's not hairy at all :/ 03:07:30 <_3b> well, most of the hairyness is actually just need of refactoring 03:08:08 <_3b> it nests ` pretty deeply, but doesn't really go outside the current level of nesting much 03:08:13 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:09:18 <_3b> that and design-by-tacking-stuff-on-as-needed :) 03:10:09 <_3b> most of the other files in that dir show how it is used 03:12:39 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-78-235.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 03:13:29 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:02 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:19:15 rstandy` [~rastandy@net-93-144-21-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 03:19:47 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:45 nyef: that's NP hard for regular expressions. 03:24:15 pkhuong: I'm more thinking for a structure such as a programming language grammar. 03:25:17 which tend to be even more complex (some restricted subset of CFGs). 03:25:36 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-21-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 257 seconds] 03:26:39 Yeah, but you can stare at a sample of any reasonable unfamiliar programming language code and get a good idea of the grammar right off, can't you? 03:27:17 <_3b> even apl or j? :p 03:27:21 but you have strong AI built-in 03:27:23 That's chomsky's cue, right? 03:27:47 So there's a massive set of prior probabilities you can use against any "familiar-looking" programming task. 03:28:30 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:28:46 And even if you can't get a grip, you fall back and look for simpler examples and explanations, right? 03:31:21 fatius [~user@cpe-66-65-63-124.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:32:06 I don't know if it's chomsky's cue or not, really. Haven't seriously looked into what he's been doing recently. 03:32:27 (Or any of his work to a significant depth.) 03:32:45 Total n00b issue: I'm trying to set a value in a loop and then check to see if it's been updated the next time through. Any pointers on what I'm doing wrong? http://gist.github.com/332468 03:33:29 <_3b> don't use tabs, it makes you code harder tor ead in pastebins :p 03:34:21 <_3b> also, when would 0 be greater than a non-negative number? 03:34:22 if zero is greater than (length ..) 03:34:46 stassats`, _3b: ugh. thanks! 03:34:47 Shouldn't that trigger a dead-code elimination note? 03:35:03 _3b: thanks for the tabs tip, I'll change my .emacs 03:35:31 in sbcl, when compiling 03:35:40 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 03:36:10 stassats`, I'm surprised it doesn't... 03:36:28 thanks everyone, obviously changing it to "(if (>(length other-value) 0)" worked like a charm. 03:36:39 <_3b> fatius: see also PLUSP 03:36:44 (when (plusp (length... 03:36:50 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:37:03 _3b: is it standard practice to use spaces instead of tabs in lisp (like python) or just for pastebins. 03:37:16 bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-136-249-169.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:17 it's commonplace 03:37:17 <_3b> sane people use spaces for all code 03:37:29 good to know. 03:37:36 also, plusp... perfect 03:37:38 so, you're saying sane people are using lisp? 03:37:54 <_3b> well, that too :) 03:38:08 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:38:48 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:56 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 03:40:42 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:50 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:41:32 Bloody McCLIM. I re-derive transformation composition and then look at the McCLIM code to see if I'm badly wrong, and their code is all a2 a1 b2 d1 and the spec is all Mxx Myx Mxy, and I'm all Mxx1 Mxx2 Myx1 Myx2, and... Ugh. 03:42:23 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:27 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:36 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:51:32 Is |$M_{xx1}$| a good variable name, or is it only asking for trouble? 03:51:47 I'd drop the $$ 03:52:00 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.220.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:52:02 TeX math-mode? 03:52:53 and use latex-preview? 03:53:05 You -know- you want to see a programming environment that produces actual rendered TeX for such variable names. 03:53:33 i believe latex-preview can easily be adjusted to that 03:54:42 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:27 nyef: absolutely. 03:55:48 and render code that way too. 03:56:15 Hrm... 3:15 at most to charge a flat battery, a little less than twice that to run it down.. 03:57:09 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:58:07 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xrvtsyxqykwgrtpb] has joined #lisp 04:00:29 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:38 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:51 Okay, it's midnight, I'm gone. 04:03:54 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:05:33 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 04:06:38 nyef: Fortress? 04:07:40 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:08:29 aquateen [~chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:18 ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 04:10:22 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:40 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:21:27 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:21:31 lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-241-150.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:01 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:22:21 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 04:23:06 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 04:25:48 -!- lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-208-108.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:26:31 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:26:56 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 04:27:22 <_rata_> is the people in this channel primarily european? why does everyone go to sleep so early? (I know this is off-topic, but there's no one else talking so I think it's not that bad to ask) 04:27:23 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:28:01 <_rata_> or is everyone working now and thus no one talks? 04:28:05 In order to live longer. 04:28:11 it's time to wake up here 04:28:21 *_3b* ignores local time zone 04:28:21 <_rata_> where do you live stassats`? 04:28:32 <_rata_> hahahahaha 04:28:39 *_rata_* too 04:28:47 in utc+3 04:28:59 rata: I suggest raising the level of your conversation if you want more participants. 04:29:10 <_rata_> hahahahaha 04:29:17 <_rata_> i dont want more participants 04:29:56 kajic [~kajic@nl118-171-109.student.uu.se] has joined #lisp 04:31:36 <_rata_> i'm just analysing why no one talks at this hour (time?) 04:32:05 Probably because there are too many idiots who want to talk about the place. 04:32:23 <_rata_> what place? 04:32:36 myu2_ [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:39 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:33:35 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:50 slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:33 <_rata_> anyways, i don't think so... if there were so many idiots talking, i couldn't have noticed that no one talks 04:37:46 <_3b> _rata_: i think he is trying to suggest off-topic talk is unwelcome, even if noone else is talking 04:38:51 less noise, more signal 04:39:35 _rata_: #lispcafe is thataway ---> 04:39:48 -!- enthymene [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 04:40:37 -!- rstandy` [~rastandy@net-93-144-21-162.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:41:23 <_rata_> ok guys... i don't disturb you anymore 04:43:28 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:46:42 -!- ASau` [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:47:16 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 04:48:27 which is better from a compilation and general efficacy standpoint: using a macro that generates the same code over and over all over the place, or a function? 04:48:55 (and, by function, I should really have said a closure) 04:49:16 -!- _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-xjtsenkvtefdjdwm] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:49:19 <_3b> whichever makes the code look nicest 04:49:57 well, I've essentially got a situation where either will look more or less identical to use. 04:50:00 <_3b> otherwise, profile specific cases and test both once you determine that is a bottleneck 04:50:15 <_3b> then a macro would be bad since you don't need a macro there 04:50:16 alright. so there's no solid rule 04:51:13 <_3b> (and if function call overhead is a problem, use an inline function to duplicate the code everywhere instead, then test to make sure that actually helped) 04:51:27 -!- kajic [~kajic@nl118-171-109.student.uu.se] has quit [Quit: kajic] 04:51:50 alright. fair enough. I'm not actually chasing speed, but was curious on the kosherity of it all, so to speak. 04:52:34 "kosher" is the correct form 04:52:48 hah ha. I'm glad you caught that one =) 04:52:51 -ness 04:53:09 <_3b> inlining can be bad for cache reasons, bandwidth, ram usage, etc 04:53:18 pate [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-zmwxtmvaysejtiym] has joined #lisp 04:53:24 <_3b> so not something you should do without reason 04:54:05 ok. academically speaking though: does the actual compiler have a way of recognizing that two pieces of code are similar because they got generated by the same macro? 04:54:15 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:27 or does a macro generate some code and *then* is fed to the compiler, without any cross talk? 04:54:29 drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:41 minion: logs 04:54:41 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 04:54:56 <_3b> that would be a silly reason to detect that, since macros can generate arbitrary code, and it wouldn't be much harder to just detect it in general 04:55:05 <_3b> not sure that is a common thing to do either way though 04:55:13 a litigious and essentially meaningless term seems to call forth meaningless litigousness (np with "kosker" actually prolly best, e.g. "kosher qualities") 04:55:49 -!- pate [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-zmwxtmvaysejtiym] has left #lisp 04:56:02 _3b: I guess what I'm wondering is if I should use a let over lambda, or a macro with a lambda. If you understand what I mean 04:56:04 gringos-maleduca [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-zmwxtmvaysejtiym] has joined #lisp 04:56:53 -!- gringos-maleduca is now known as zh-maleducado 04:57:23 <_3b> without context, i'd say the 'if yu don't need a macro, don't use one' rule applies 04:58:20 <_3b> you aren't changing evaluation rules (or even shortening code), so a function is appropriate 04:59:11 aye. I'm seeing that too from our conversation and formatting stuff around as we speak. 05:00:52 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-28-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:02:09 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-219-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:03:22 enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:35 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:16 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:07:32 kajic [kajic@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE] has joined #lisp 05:08:40 -!- zh-maleducado [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-zmwxtmvaysejtiym] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:09:07 _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-rulydxclsljfgvfa] has joined #lisp 05:13:04 -!- mooglenorph [~marco@173-9-7-10-New-England.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:14:49 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:15:01 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 05:19:08 Good morning! 05:19:42 good night! =) 05:19:50 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 05:21:10 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 05:22:40 <_rata_> good morning beach 05:23:35 morning 05:23:49 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:24:00 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:54 slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:41 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-179-92.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:30:48 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:03 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 05:32:57 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:32:57 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 05:34:02 drewc` 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[Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:17 -!- psyllo [~ben@c-98-234-150-140.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:45:42 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:48:55 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:49:04 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:52:09 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-10-128-5.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: night] 07:52:20 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 07:54:05 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56:14 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:56:50 -!- konr [~user@201.82.140.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:03:04 good morning 08:03:11 hello mvilleneuve 08:04:30 <_rata_> good morning mvilleneuve 08:04:56 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:08:04 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:11:09 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 08:12:01 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 08:12:22 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 08:16:34 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:17:49 'morning beach 08:18:57 hey fe[nl]ix 08:20:27 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:22:00 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #lisp 08:24:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:25:54 -!- pjb` [~t@95.124.37.67] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:26:43 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:28:04 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-242-77.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:28:54 BinaryBit_ [~bit_binar@202.68.78.21] has joined #lisp 08:29:20 wvdschel [~wim@d51A4AA54.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:29:39 -!- BinaryBit [~bit_binar@202.68.78.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:53 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 08:31:36 hmm, sbcl-1.0.36 OSX ASDF-INSTALL compile fails compalaing *SHELL-SEARCH-PATHS* is unbound. Significant? 08:35:24 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:35:43 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:36:47 lat__ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:37:20 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 08:48:43 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49:45 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.217] has joined #lisp 08:49:45 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:04 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.217] has quit [Client Quit] 08:50:30 easyE: that's a little light on details 08:51:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:51:56 but since string "shell-search-paths" doesn't appear in the sbcl source tree, i'm inclined to guess that either you are not using the sbcl provided asdf-install, or the error comes from the software you are trying to install 08:54:55 Weird. I was trying to update the MacPorts for submission, just changed the checksums, and compiled. It could very well be a local copy of ASDF-INSTALL "leaking" in. Thanks for the clue that the symbol ain't native to SBCL. 08:56:25 easyE: wait, did you get that error from "sh make.sh"? 08:56:40 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 08:57:11 that's definitely odd -- getting leakage into the build like that really should not happen 08:57:15 Yeah, that's what MacPorts boils down to. 08:57:29 can you lisppaste the error? 08:57:47 The failure in output right? 08:57:54 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.64.153.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 08:57:58 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:57:59 yeah 09:00:00 -!- Wombatzus [~user@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has left #lisp 09:00:32 "Paste too large" You want the stack trace at the end? 09:01:54 easye pasted "sbcl-1.0.36 OSX ASDF-INSTALL build failure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96402 09:02:08 I snipped out the middle. 09:03:21 nikodemus annotated #96402 "this is where it comes from" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96402#1 09:03:36 xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:04:07 Isn't clbuild supposed to have a cl-swank project? 09:04:17 -!- xan is now known as xan_ 09:04:26 Ah. Fair enough. Thanks for the sharp eyes! 09:05:04 it's a bug in sbcl -- we should not do that during the system build, only when loading asdf-install for the user 09:05:20 but since it's been there forever, you're best working around it for now 09:05:30 Sure. 09:05:54 It'll go out to thousands of unspecting OSX monkeys that way, but that's life. 09:06:23 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:06:23 -!- enthymene [~kraken@76.242.89.178] has quit [Quit: I command me to SLEEEP!] 09:06:30 Hopefully mixing multiple Lisp systems with a customized ASDF-INSTALL is only just me. 09:06:39 (probably the case) 09:07:19 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/538974 # for reference 09:09:41 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-ovyailokysfskflr] has joined #lisp 09:10:21 Can cl-swank not be installed with clbuild? How then is it best installed? 09:11:32 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.217] has joined #lisp 09:11:40 I would think it comes with SLIME. 09:11:46 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.217] has quit [Client Quit] 09:13:32 cl-swank sounds like clc name 09:14:12 beach, when I start slime from within emacs23 I get this: (progn (load "/home/lat/clbuild/.swank-loader.lisp" :verbose t) (funcall (read-from-string "swank-loader:init")) (funcall (read-from-string "swank:start-server") "/tmp/slime.10568" :coding-system "utf-8-unix")) 09:15:09 Then info about SBCL 1.0.36. Then this: Process inferior-lisp exited abnormally with code 1 09:16:07 lat__: where did you get the reference to cl-swank from? 09:17:19 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:17:31 using lisppaste to provide more of the *inferior-lisp* contents would make diagnosis easier, but i'm not volunteering since i have to go in a minute 09:18:18 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:32 nikodemus, stassats` told me to purge slime and cl-swank before reinstalling sbcl, etc. 09:19:59 So I figured it needed to be reinstalled. 09:20:04 <_3b> lat__: 'purge' as in uninstall, including config files 09:20:10 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:20:19 lat__: you figured wrong 09:20:37 <_3b> reinstalling it would break slime even more 09:20:46 swank is a part of slime 09:21:12 _3b: i guess lat__ thought that cl-swank should be installed from clbuild too 09:21:41 why is lisp better than c? 09:21:51 <_3b> BinaryBit_: it isn't 09:21:51 because i say so 09:22:09 what is lisp and why use it? 09:22:17 Ok, so what is causing inferior list to exit abnormally? 09:22:27 it is a programming language but who uses it most? 09:22:40 BinaryBit_: people who like programming in it 09:22:56 i made a c program that looks like lisp 09:22:58 <_3b> lat__: tried running sbcl separately? try pasting full *inferior-lisp* to lisppaste? 09:23:15 int(((((this_cant_be_right2)))))(int (((((((x)))))))){{{{return((((((1))))));}}}}int(((((((main)))))))(){{{{int x;{{{}}}((((((x))))))=(((this_cant_be_right2)((2))));{ {{{((((printf))))("x is %d",((((x)))));}}}}{{}}return(((this_cant_be_right2))(((((((0))))))));}}}} and it works :) 09:23:32 lat__: swank is a part of slime. You can install slime through apt or through clbuild. In clbuild, the project is called slime. 09:23:38 if clc is involved, i will *not* involve myself, except to provide help in removing it from the system 09:23:44 ops, anyone? 09:23:59 BinaryBit_: first, it's nothing like lisp; second, go away if you don't have anything of substance to say. 09:24:10 If debian has a package cl-swank, then I'm guessing that they bundle the CL-side of slime separately, but clbuild doesn't do it that way, it just downloads from upstream. 09:24:46 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:25:50 lichtblau, I've already installed slime using clbuild, so I guess I have cl-swank also. 09:26:26 jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:27:20 yeah. Although again: cl-swank is a debian package. the real thing is called swank, not cl-swank. 09:28:14 _3b, no error messages running sbcl from the terminal. 09:28:15 and the real swank is part of slime 09:28:28 if you have cl-swank installed from debian, it may well be the cause of your troubles 09:28:32 but, laters 09:28:34 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:29:35 <_3b> lat__: 'no error messages' as in you get a working repl? 09:31:10 nikodemus, cl-swank was installed by synaptic, but I uninstalled it. 09:31:50 did you _purge_ it? 09:32:48 ... before getting reinstalling sbcl. Yes, I purged it. 09:33:49 anyway, cl-swank shouldn't cause any trouble, unlike slime apt-package 09:34:30 there's no cl-swank without apt packages, right? 09:34:35 danlei [~user@vpn280.uni-trier.de] has joined #lisp 09:35:02 who knows what one can conceive 09:37:56 _3b, you said: "try pasting full *inferior-lisp* to lisppaste." Are you talking about the constants of a file? 09:38:51 <_3b> lat__: the *inferior-lisp* buffer in emacs... where you got that (progn ...) form, 'info about sbcl', etc 09:42:51 _3b, except for the information that normally comes up when sbcl is started, I posted all the contents of that buffer above. 09:43:19 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-71-225-11-30.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 09:43:21 <_3b> so it ends with "distribution for more information." ? 09:44:06 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:32 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:34 Subjecively sbcl-1.0.36 seems to compile a lot faster. . . 09:44:52 _3b, no, it ends with: Process inferior-lisp exited abnormally with code 1 09:45:20 <_3b> lat__: i meant the 'information that normally comes up' part 09:45:26 Must just be a lightly loaded system. 09:45:58 <_3b> lat__: (not having to go back and forth like this just to verify we understood your description correctly is why it would have been easier to just paste it in the first place) 09:48:09 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-106-114.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:48:41 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:48:41 pyro- [~pyro@CPE-124-190-112-220.nxwn1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:48:56 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-109.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:49:57 lat__ pasted "Contents of inferior lisp buffer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96404 09:50:34 could not open file "/home/lat/clbuild/monster.core", here's your problem 09:50:38 <_3b> lat__: 'could not open file "/home/lat/clbuild/monster.core"' is part of your normal SBCL startup output? 09:51:31 <_3b> lat__: you probably need to either tell clbuild to build a monster.core, or change how you set up slime in .emacs 09:52:53 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.217] has joined #lisp 09:54:23 plutonas` [~plutonas@port-92-195-239-140.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:54:40 freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has joined #lisp 09:54:58 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.217] has quit [Client Quit] 09:55:09 -!- plutonas [~plutonas@port-92-195-139-143.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:56:16 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:56:33 _3b, you have sharp eyes. I didn't see that. What is a monster.core? 09:58:15 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:58:21 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e195-238.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:58:46 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:59:10 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:59:18 the file written by "clbuild dumpcore". But slime does not use the monster.core by default. 09:59:20 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 09:59:57 If your slime is trying to use it, you must have configured clbuild or slime to do so explicitly. 10:00:02 If that's the case, I suggest wiping out any old configuration you might have and set up a clean one. 10:00:12 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-170-52.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 10:00:54 -!- blast_hardcheese [~blast_har@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:02:58 Looking in /home/lat/clbuild for e replacement for monster.core I find .core-is-stale. 10:07:37 I think I know the problem. 10:07:48 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:09:53 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-179-92.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:12:05 -!- joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:12:25 joga [joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 10:13:06 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:13:29 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 10:13:56 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 10:15:19 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:15:33 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:16 Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-179-92.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:16:33 -!- pyro- [~pyro@CPE-124-190-112-220.nxwn1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 10:23:39 lat__ annotated #96404 ".emacs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96404#1 10:25:43 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:50 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 10:27:19 i congratulate you guys for using a language that is in love with c() :) but I'll stick to freepascal :) 10:27:25 -!- BinaryBit_ [~bit_binar@202.68.78.21] has left #lisp 10:28:20 <_3b> lat__: you only need the first setq form 10:28:58 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:29:30 pemryan [~pem@2001:cc0:201e:107:221:86ff:fe1a:e5aa] has joined #lisp 10:31:31 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:33:13 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:33:31 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:33:36 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: irl] 10:34:48 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:35:01 PurplePanda [~pyro@CPE-124-190-112-220.nxwn1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:36:15 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:37:04 -!- _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-rulydxclsljfgvfa] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:37:59 lat__ annotated #96404 "Contents of inferior lisp buffer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96404#2 10:38:50 you keep pasting stuff, but your configuration evidently completely wrong, and it's unclear what (if any) error there is actually left. 10:39:32 Check out a fresh clbuild, use it to install slime, then start slime using "clbuild slime -q". 10:39:53 If that doesn't work, you have reason to complain. 10:40:15 But as long as you have random junk in an old config file, what are we supposed to do about that? 10:40:47 -!- joga [joga@rikki.fi] has quit [Changing host] 10:40:47 joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 10:41:40 howdy guys 10:49:46 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:53:05 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:54:42 mega1 [~quassel@3e44a62a.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:58:56 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 10:59:05 blast_hardcheese [~blast_har@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:18 Axius [~hi@92.84.1.149] has joined #lisp 11:01:01 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-242-15.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:02:07 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 11:02:14 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 11:02:26 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp121-45-69-190.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:26 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 11:03:55 -!- spcartman [~db6ef68f@gateway/web/freenode/x-rmqpnuhzlkqdaacj] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:04:35 hello again 11:04:48 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:19 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d51A4AA54.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:06:46 wvdschel [~wim@d51A4AA54.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 11:07:58 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:09:48 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:22 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d51A4AA54.access.telenet.be] has quit [Client Quit] 11:12:31 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:16:08 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:40 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:19:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:20:03 -!- pemryan [~pem@2001:cc0:201e:107:221:86ff:fe1a:e5aa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22:55 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:23:23 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.1.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:24:15 amaron [~amaron@cable-89-216-184-36.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 11:26:13 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:21 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:30:07 -!- billstclai [~billstcla@dcha-aa-65-219-215-24.taconic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:30:13 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:30:54 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD] 11:32:47 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 11:33:20 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:22 Alaa_ [~chatzilla@dxb-as44151.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #lisp 11:40:24 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@219-89-106-114.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:40:50 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:43:00 I have problem trying to use clsql-sqlite3. when i try to connect it gives me "Can't resolve foreign symbol "sqlite3_open". I've also checked clsql-sqlite3::*sqlite3-library-loaded* which gave me 'T' .my setup is CCL 1.5-dev-r13285M-trunk on windows xp. 11:43:01 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-114.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:44:56 I've also tried to read sqlite3-api.lisp but there was nothing giving clue about missing something. what other areas where i got it wrong. 11:48:48 billstclair [~billstcla@dcha-aa-65-219-215-24.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:48 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dcha-aa-65-219-215-24.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:48:48 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:03:23 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:32 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.64.153.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 12:04:56 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:05:05 Bah. On windows, pipes block on Allegro's mp:wait-for-input-available even when input /is/ available. 12:06:11 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:06:26 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 12:07:50 is there a infinatly precicefloating type? 12:07:58 is there a infinatly precise floating type? 12:08:39 well i just mean a non bit bound .. pretty much a non bitbound integer + pointing location 12:09:09 dmiles: AFAIK only Clisp has that feature 12:09:19 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3038075592819373@arcana.naggum.no.html 12:10:09 thanks 12:10:59 also i'll fire up clisp and see what the type-of is 12:11:56 I can't reach http://metabang.com. Can you? 12:12:00 LONG-FLOAT 12:12:54 Xach: nope 12:13:05 nope 12:13:14 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:17 though it might be the porn filter 12:13:31 heh 12:13:43 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:15:15 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-42-145.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:14 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:54 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-57-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:18:52 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:19:34 hi nikodemus 12:21:16 hi 12:21:36 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-106-114.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:21:46 nikodemus: did you know about the "Memory Pool System" ? 12:22:45 http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/ 12:23:09 it was tutorialed at ILC'07 12:23:22 oh, nice 12:23:38 fe[nl]ix: yes, i know about it 12:24:00 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 12:24:08 ever thought of using it in SBCL ? 12:24:49 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 12:25:06 license issues 12:25:14 see clause 3 in particular 12:25:41 haha, I spotted that too 12:25:54 anything else ? 12:26:08 it looks like a BSD/MIT/X licence, but is actually almost GPL 12:26:33 -!- fatius [~user@cpe-66-65-63-124.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: bye] 12:26:38 well, with clause #3 in place it is not worth my while to look into hooking it to sbcl 12:27:03 though it might well be worth my while to ask if they can grant us excemption from #3 12:27:08 now that i think of it 12:27:11 It's being used in OpenDylan IIANM, so they must have found it LGPL compatible at least. 12:27:40 nikodemus: how would that be different from an exception for everyone? 12:29:43 *shh* 12:30:22 though i would say that using something as part of sbcl is pretty clearly distinct from ripping it out of sbcl and using it for something else 12:30:39 enforceable? probably not 12:31:50 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:37:49 ikki [~ikki@189.139.220.129] has joined #lisp 12:38:29 mail sent to mps-questions 12:38:35 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:38:51 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:40:39 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 12:42:06 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:45:32 -!- pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:46:24 pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 12:47:17 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 12:47:46 rodt1 [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:32 -!- rodt [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:52:02 blue112 [~Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has joined #lisp 12:52:05 -!- blue112 [~Blue@unaffiliated/blue112] has left #lisp 12:53:27 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:34 what does "AVER" stand for ? 12:53:47 it's a verb. 12:53:59 http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&hl=en&q=aver 12:54:27 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:54:44 Xach: I meant SB-INT::AVER 12:54:49 fe[nl]ix: Me too. 12:55:13 fe[nl]ix: it's a more basic version of ASSERT 12:56:24 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:01 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:57:41 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 12:58:42 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:00:38 olaf` [~user@62.96.71.161] has joined #lisp 13:01:35 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 13:01:44 Hello, i have a problem with sbcl, could give me a hint? 13:02:52 olaf`: yes, tell what's the real problem is 13:02:52 olaf`: maybe. describe your problem, please. 13:02:53 olaf`: tell me your problems 13:03:12 -!- danlei [~user@vpn280.uni-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:03:12 LDB gives me this this message: fatal error encountered in SBCL [..] some deferrable signals blocked, some unblocked 13:03:45 olaf`: under what circumstances does it give you that message? 13:03:50 I have no idea..., i even compiled an recent sbcl 13:04:04 olaf`: what activity precedes that message? 13:04:29 httpRequest processing, includes database access 13:05:07 os x? 13:05:18 amd64 linux 13:05:22 olaf`: are you accessing the DB over a socket, or is the DB library in the same process? 13:05:49 -!- yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:06:51 tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:02 clsql-postgresql via uffi 13:07:05 -!- pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: irl] 13:07:50 so yes, in the same process 13:07:58 my first inclination would be to blame the C-side postgres library, but that's just a guess 13:08:04 hm 13:08:18 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Reporting-Bugs.html # how to extract more meaningful information about signal related bugs 13:08:33 the crashes are random 13:08:47 are you running threaded? 13:08:58 yes 13:09:02 clsql has a socket interface to postgres too, right? should be easy enough to verify the hypothesis by switching to that 13:09:53 OK, I will try 13:10:10 threads explain the randomness pretty easily -- and it may also be that libpostgres isn't thread safe 13:10:16 How can I see all logical pathname translations? 13:10:17 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:10:23 http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/sbcl-internals/The-deferral-mechanism.html 13:10:27 maybe? 13:10:28 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:10:37 pookleblinky [~pookle@cpe-67-252-140-159.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:50 carlocci [~nes@93.37.208.255] has joined #lisp 13:10:52 maybe what? 13:11:02 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:11:15 *Krystof* waves 13:11:34 long time no not all even in the same virtual location 13:11:45 tcr: I don't think there's a standard way. You'd have to be able to enumerate all hosts, and I don't think there's a standard way to do that. 13:12:10 Krystof: how's life and hacking? 13:13:36 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e44a62a.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:14:25 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:34 yacin [~yacin@tyr.gtisc.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 13:14:53 hm, it seems i do not get Common Lisp Hyperspec, 11.1.1.2.5. i do import some symbols/functions from another package of mine via (defpackage "" [...] (:import-from "" "")). as far as i understood, now i should be able to use without prefix (::), but if i do so, iget name-conflicts. what am i thinking wrong? 13:15:05 mega1 [~quassel@3e44a62a.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 13:15:32 ryepup1 [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:15:48 trebor_dki: lisppaste an example 13:16:26 nikodemus: do you need the .asd file, too? 13:17:05 life: not bad. Hacking: not happening 13:18:46 trebor_dki: it's easiest if you stick code that exemplifies your confusion into a single file an put that up at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 13:19:02 trebor_dki: do you get the conflict at the time you evaluate defpackage? 13:19:12 trebor_dki: if so, you can use (:shadowing-import-from ...) instead 13:19:28 if you need multiple files to demonstrate, then obviously you need to specify the order and method how they are compiled/loaded for us to observe the same situation as you 13:20:00 nikodemus: i'll try to put it into one file, but i do not know, if that will be the same situation ... 13:20:23 trebor_dki: reducing an example like that is often also good for your own understanding :) 13:20:29 Xach: i get it, if i do in slime ", load-system " 13:20:56 sometimes formulating the problem more clearly (which is what this is, really) is enough to solve it... 13:21:49 Krystof: i wonder if we should record lp bugs/wishlist items for the cool stuff from sbcl10 13:22:42 -!- ASau``` [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:22:49 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:24:13 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A03F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:17 nikodemus: sure! 13:24:40 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A03F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:47 did you just volunteer? :) 13:25:48 no 13:25:59 I have my notes somewhere, though 13:26:09 but I think that the website has most of the information from them 13:26:33 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A03F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:27:14 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has joined #lisp 13:27:54 unicode: equivalence and normalization forms, bidirectional layout, collation, foo-casing, locale-sensitivity -- does that sound about right? 13:28:24 (newline conversions are already on lp, i think...) 13:28:34 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:29:04 nikodemus: you can get all that by using ICU 13:29:07 *fe[nl]ix* hides 13:30:00 FFI is for sissies! 13:31:45 ASau``` [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:32:03 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:16 i don't understand any of those except foo-casing well enough to even write to report -- any volunteer for putting the rest up on launchpad? 13:34:00 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:29 How is sbcl's signal handling implemented? Especially with regards to multiple threads 13:34:43 is signal handling tied into serve-event? 13:34:47 tcr: eh? Whatever posix does. 13:35:27 -!- aquateen [~chris@c-24-18-15-69.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: aquateen] 13:35:52 well it's the c run-time which receives the signals, isn't it? 13:35:54 trebor pasted "importing from packages - can not compress it further, sorry" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96409 13:37:47 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:09 tcr: yes, in the thread the OS/c runtime sends it to. 13:38:10 *trebor_dki* reading "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Common Lisp Packages" 13:38:24 WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:29 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:38:29 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 13:38:29 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:38:57 trebor_dki: paste the error as well there 13:38:59 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 13:40:20 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:40:21 trebor annotated #96409 "this is the error-message" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96409#1 13:41:40 Sergio` [~Sergio`@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 13:43:38 I have no problems when using the clsql-postgresql-socket interface 13:43:45 thanks you 13:44:00 *olaf`* goes back to work 13:44:39 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:44:50 trebor_dki: ok, the quickest way to sort that out is probably for you to (1) remove the DELETE-PACKAGE stuff (2) use (:EXPORT ...) and (:USE ...) options instead of (:IMPORT-FROM ...) 13:45:38 tcr: re serve-event, not explicitly, I don't think. 13:47:38 (trebor_dki: you realize that the paste doesn't provide enough details for others to replicate your problem, which is generally speaking an pretty essential step in providing assistance? without that, we are reduced to guessing) 13:48:10 nikodemus: thanks, i'll try it in this order (the delete-package stuff was from pre-asdf time anyway) 13:48:14 splittist [~50a9827e@gateway/web/freenode/x-etyjxlqjhsmkfxli] has joined #lisp 13:48:16 morning 13:48:50 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e195-238.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:49:44 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@pub-nat.haaga-helia.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:49 trebor_dki: usually people use :IMPORT-FROM only if they either only want a few symbols from a package that exports many (which would otherwise cause conflicts), or when they want to import something that wasn't exported in the first place 13:50:05 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:42 it's a handy thing to use if you don't want your program to be broken by future releases of the import-ed package that includes more symbols. 13:50:52 nikodemus: the second case was the one i was heading for. 13:51:07 ok 13:59:46 nikodemus: (1) didn't do any effect. i do fear that the problem (again again again) is the asdf-stuff (because in the single-file-case :import worked. before i do (2) i reread the guide to cl-packages. 14:00:39 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 14:01:57 trebor_dki: i would recommand the packages chapter in pcl over the erann's guide -- but that's just me 14:02:17 trebor_dki: however, you should note that ASDF per se doesn't do anything with packages 14:02:32 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.97.190.90.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:03:00 if you write a single file that replicates the compile/load order produced by asdf by just calling COMPILE-FILE and LOAD, you will see the same conflicts 14:03:33 (i'm not suggesting you do that -- just that ASDF has very little bearing here) 14:04:34 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:05:08 trebor_dki: this "BMP-IO::3D-LOAD-BMPS, #:3D-LOAD-BMPS" is what you should focus on. (from the error message) 14:05:53 the first symbol is the one you want. what is somewhat mysterious is how come there is an uninterned symbol it is conflicting with 14:06:45 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:07:31 try restarting your lisp and nuking all fasls after removing all the DELETE-PACKAGE forms 14:08:07 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:49 mega1: ping 14:08:54 nikodemus: sorry for delay - i am reading pcl. 14:08:57 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 14:09:01 fe[nl]ix: hello 14:09:09 hello 14:09:33 mega1: could you take a look at http://gitorious.org/iolib/static-vectors/blobs/master/src/impl-sbcl.lisp#line131 ? 14:09:42 mega1: is the use if without-interrupts and with-interrupts correct ? 14:09:46 sure 14:11:19 excellent 14:13:30 fe[nl]ix: I believe with-interrupts should be with-local-interrupts 14:13:46 what's the difference between them ? 14:13:54 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:14:43 w-l-i does an allow-with-interrupts 14:15:05 it's documented in signal.lisp 14:15:10 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:16:15 nikodemus: shadowing-import-from seems to do the trick (as far as i can see for now) - testing 14:18:39 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:07 mega1: can i pick your brain about the condition-wait stuff? 14:19:13 nikodemus: yes 14:19:44 how does using address of the pinned lisp thread object + flag sound? 14:20:15 unique per thread/action pair, and there should be no danger of accidental recycling that i can see 14:20:35 under what circumstances is the thread object pinned? 14:21:10 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:25 around the futex-calls in condition-wait and condition-notify... oh, i see 14:21:33 yup 14:22:00 address of the thread stack? 14:22:05 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:22:13 or should i just give up? :) 14:22:34 I'm not up to proving or disproving that it works like that, paging back the condvar code is beyond me at the moment. 14:22:44 thread stack sounds good 14:23:00 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:23:09 i'll hack something up and post to the list 14:23:26 ... provided that dead threads leaving around values in condvars is ok. 14:23:49 if not, it's the recycling issue again. 14:24:15 -!- olaf` [~user@62.96.71.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:27 i think i need a pen and paper 14:24:53 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:25:51 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:22 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.97.190.90.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:35:37 jmbr [~jmbr@60.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:37:23 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.97.190.90.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:39:50 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 14:39:53 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 14:43:21 nikodemus & Xach thanks for your hints, everything is working like a charm (again), now \o/ 14:43:57 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xrvtsyxqykwgrtpb] has left #lisp 14:46:26 Harag pasted "Is there a better way?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96414 14:47:08 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:52:28 waat? 14:52:51 Harag: What is all that supposed to do, I mean what is the effect you are trying to achieve? 14:53:37 mega1: i'm starting to think that the recycling is a false worry, at least if we're talking about lisp objects 14:56:07 beach: i need to be able to us a variable in the body code that is passed to the macro, but the value of that variable it only set when the function created by the macro is called 14:56:47 Harag: That is the kind of answer I was not looking for, but rather, what is the purpose of wanting to do that? 14:57:06 its to for a widget frame work 14:57:49 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:57:54 the macro will create the render function of the widget 14:58:15 Harag: OK, let's put this differenently, can you describe, without referring to the mechanism used to implement it, what the "moral" purpose of "(let ((self)) (xxx ((self)) (format ...)))" is? 14:58:53 but the widget "instance" does not exist when the macro is called 14:58:57 rajesh [~rajesh@cpe-72-229-31-87.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:58 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@cpe-72-229-31-87.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:58:58 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 14:59:46 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:59:58 I need a macro to ease the creation of the render function 15:00:00 -!- freakrobot [~freakrobo@111.172.72.141] has left #lisp 15:00:42 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.233] has joined #lisp 15:01:13 Harag: I am afraid I don't understand, because either you invoke implementation details or an entire framework of which I have no knowledge. 15:01:19 Harag: can you write the code the macro would expand to? as in, what would it be if lisp didn't have macros 15:01:27 basicly the macro will add some pluming to the render method that the widget creator should not need to bother with 15:02:35 I don't see any methods in there at all. 15:02:51 nor do I see any widgets. 15:03:26 beach: i tried to limit the code to my question 15:04:54 Harag: also, what do you mean by "at the time of calling the macro" -- macroexpansion time? the time control enters the code the macro expanded into? 15:05:29 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.97.190.90.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:06:12 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.97.190.90.sta.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:08:42 ok let me try to explain myself better 15:09:55 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-142-222.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:58 Hello all. 15:10:42 beach & nikodemus: I have a widget frame work that has a widget class, some plumbing code and a generic render method 15:12:10 nikodemus: anything that involves threads and pinning or the control stack is suspect: what if the pinning thread dies? 15:12:20 beach & nikodemus: some one uses that to create a class based on widget and needs to implement the render method 15:12:46 nyef: hi 15:12:56 hello nyef 15:13:27 stassats`: Thanks for the hint about preview-latex last night. It's almost perfectly what I had in mind. 15:14:36 pkhuong: some pinning with condition variables is inevitable, since the futex api wants the data address 15:15:04 beach & nikodemus: but implementing the render method so that it works properly is not strait forward so I can hide that complexity by supplying a macro that supplies most of then plumbing for the render method 15:15:26 nikodemus: could use a malloced address. 15:17:06 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-169.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:26 Krystof: herep 15:18:13 in the end you have some one creating widgets using the framework and those widgets is used by other people and they are the ones atually using the render method created 15:18:40 oh, dear: http://symbolics.com/ 15:18:54 is that any clearer? 15:19:14 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:19:38 rsynnott: :O 15:20:13 That's quite recent; the sad remains of Symbolics were there until pretty recently 15:20:23 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:41 Yes. I remember that. with some not so nice scan of something or other. 15:20:41 rsynnott: I like how Symbolics is the bridge between the two main tech booms: the AI boom and the dot com boom. 15:20:57 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.97.190.90.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:23:16 pkhuong: gah, that made me realize another lost wakeup scenario we don't currently handle -- a thread unwinding after getting a wakeup in futex-wait 15:23:31 rsynott: I held my head in my hands in despair when I saw that. 15:23:35 "the bust between the booms" 15:24:19 Buying the first domain name ever for your irrelevant domain name speculation blog seems... a bit tacky 15:24:29 Harag: sure. now can you show us (1) what a render method written manually without any macrology looks like (2) what you would like it to look like, given a sufficiently smart macro 15:25:07 nikodemus: ok thanx 15:25:56 nikodemus: you know, only ever using timed wait operations would help with that. 15:26:23 pkhuong: true 15:26:25 Insert a random/exponential timeout, capped around 1-2 seconds. 15:26:31 but still suboptimal 15:26:47 After how many threads does it become an issue? 15:27:01 no idea, really 15:27:02 Won't we run out of address space first? ;) 15:27:20 -!- bipt` [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:27:47 Or, we could have the GC backpatch these issues. 15:27:55 hah 15:28:17 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:20 Of course, in the end, it only means that user code barfs on broken invariants instead of our own. 15:30:56 considering how the actual data of interest is outside CONDITION-WAIT, i don't see how to make the forced timeout exponential without changing the API 15:31:19 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@60.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:33:52 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:40 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 15:34:42 lost wakeup due to unwinding is really a problem due to not using broadcast. 15:35:12 If we can make sure the lock isn't owned forever by dead threads, then broadcast will still work, at least. 15:35:14 broadcasting sucks if you have lots of waiters and are trying to do first-come-first-served 15:35:16 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-242-77.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:31 oh crap. look at the GET-MUTEX at the end of CONDITION-WAIT 15:35:42 Sure, but if you do that you'd better know what you're doing. 15:36:13 sepult [~user@xdsl-78-35-210-94.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:38 we have ALLOW-WITHOUT-INTERRUPTS around it -- which means that a timeout there could exit CONDITION-WAIT without holding the mutex, and end up in a place where the mutex should be held 15:36:45 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:37:37 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:38:05 aniline [~aniline@59.92.179.95] has joined #lisp 15:38:10 i suspect the whole condition-variable API is fundamentally broken: the user code inside the WITH-MUTEX surrounding CONDITION-WAIT must be written far too carefully for it to be realistic for users to manage that consistently 15:38:22 i mean, we have trouble doing it... 15:39:55 what else is there to do with condition variables except implemnt semaphores or reverse-semaphores? 15:41:41 I'm not opposed to offering semaphores instead ;) 15:41:52 sb-threads is still experimental, right? 15:42:47 did someone try makin a M:N threading on top of multithreaded CL? 15:43:50 we already export semaphores... 15:44:17 ...and i have code for inverse-semaphores/waitcounters/whatever-you-call-them somewhere 15:44:22 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:45:00 i wonder how much hate we would generate if we just deprecated condition-variables? 15:45:06 slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:12 slyrus! 15:46:20 Harag annotated #96414 "expanded" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96414#1 15:46:32 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:47:34 nikodemus: there is a simple example omitting widget class definitions 15:48:22 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 15:49:05 nikodemus: yeah, but we implement semaphores via mutex and condvads 15:49:18 p_l: SCL, maybe. 15:50:05 i've yet to see any M:N in SCL. for all my wading through the manuals, it is 1:1 threading. 15:51:21 lock free + some sort of soft concurrency control might be harder to get subtly wrong... 15:54:30 (soft because you can't ever wait forever) 15:55:22 qamikaz [~alper@85.100.241.8] has joined #lisp 15:55:27 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:55:46 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:57:06 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:58:03 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:58:12 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 15:58:17 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@adsl-75-60-28-30.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:02:52 pkhuong: I was reading through some concurrent/parallel texts and ended up thinking about coroutines in multithreaded application :) 16:03:33 p_l: worst of both worlds? 16:03:50 jewel [~jewel@vc-41-29-11-100.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:04:55 nikodemus: even if I exstract then plumbing code into its own function the person that implements the render method will have to remember to call said function (today its one function and to tomorrow it might be ten) in the method implementation...and I dont want the person that implements the render method to remember they should be able to concentrate on their code and not worry about the rest 16:05:03 fatius [troden@b02s03mr.corenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:21 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:06:37 pmd [~user@d118-75-176-35.try.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 16:10:10 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:10:24 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:10:43 Harag: so RENDER-MY-WIDGET is the user-code, and RENDER is all plumbing -- except for the calls to R-M-W? 16:11:00 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:11:30 yes 16:12:49 pkhuong: maybe :D 16:13:13 pkhuong: mostly I was thinking of use of coroutines in a producer-consumer configuration 16:13:20 drewc```` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:38 i would just replace RENDER-MY-WIDGET with CALL-NEXT-METHOD and instruct the user to define a RENDER method specialized on his own class (and replace the CALL-NEXT-METHOD now there with RENDER-FROM-CACHE or something) 16:13:40 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:42 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:01 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:14:19 nikodemus: thanx 16:14:23 becaus as far as i can tell, you're not really providing any lexical context for the user code -- so there is no need for a macro 16:15:13 -!- drewc``` [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:15:21 now, if you want to hide that fact that you're using a GF and it's called, RENDER -- in case you choose to change this later -- then a DEFINE-RENDER-METHOD macro would fit the bill 16:15:30 yeah after working trough it I again i started the think that to 16:15:37 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:16:16 ok thanx for the input 16:18:27 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 16:19:00 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:00 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-179-181.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:19:00 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:19:13 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:19:29 nikodemus annotated #96414 "maybe something like this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96414#2 16:19:45 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:20:32 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755acb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:31 attila_lendvai: szia :) 16:22:27 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:23:13 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:33 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 16:24:21 nikodemus: thank you that helps a lot, i did not realize that the call next method could be used like that 16:24:47 smanek [~smanek@static-71-249-221-129.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:17 my wrongly assumed that call-next-method abandoned the current method 16:26:28 -my +I 16:26:52 *Harag* still has much to learn 16:26:53 fe[nl]ix,  16:27:01 dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:01 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-234-175.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 16:27:01 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:27:01 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 16:27:04 :) 16:27:12 hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-58-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:27:32 *attila_lendvai* 's gf is sitting next to him... 16:28:22 -!- rodt1 is now known as rodt 16:28:37 hi fe[nl]ix 16:28:42 hi Blkt 16:29:29 nikodemus: I don't get the problem about allow-with-interrupts around get-mutex in UWP cleanup-clause 16:30:04 tcr: it needs to be documented that unwinding from CONDITION-WAIT may happen without the mutex being held, basically 16:30:08 I mean I see it as part of the API 16:32:33 I just lost all conviction of cross-implementation multi-threading in Common Lisp; MT is so implementation, OS, architecture dependent that I don't think cross-platform black-box layers are feasible without involvement of lots of money 16:33:21 tcr: it was about time :D 16:33:59 xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:34:03 kenpp [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:34:32 i just wish bordeaux threads didn't expose condition variables, but rather mutexes, semaphores and CAS 16:35:09 What's better about semaphores? 16:35:11 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-ovyailokysfskflr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:35:16 Well, we can just do it over again when we get threading working on windows. :-P 16:35:22 I find them conceptually overloaded 16:35:35 Since there -are- no condition variables there natively. 16:36:05 If you see some code uses semaphores you have no chance of knowing what they're used for without crucially reading the code which may involve quite a bit of big picture 16:37:49 htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has joined #lisp 16:38:03 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:38:16 i don't see that at all 16:38:24 -!- jewel [~jewel@vc-41-29-11-100.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:38:27 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:39:29 You know, this was all easier to reason about back when the only way to have two concurrent threads of execution was to have them in separate address spaces. 16:39:55 Speaking of MT, is there some principled way of doing thread cancellation à la InterruptedExcpetion from Java in SBCL or other Lisps? 16:40:03 -!- fatius [troden@b02s03mr.corenetworks.net] has quit [Quit: bbiab] 16:40:13 Hah! 16:40:21 pix4 [~pixel@dslb-092-073-166-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:41 The issue with thread cancellation is that it still does an unwind. And the unwind handlers aren't permitted to abort the unwind. 16:41:11 And, in SBCL, there's no mechanism in place to prevent unwind handlers from aborting -some- unwinds. 16:41:32 And, for more fun, you then need some way for an unwind handler to know if it is permitted to abort the unwind or not. 16:41:36 Well, in Java you can ignore the InterruptedExceptions. 16:41:53 So the interrupt is just a polite request really. 16:41:57 *attila_lendvai* realizes that it's not #iolib 16:42:00 You're not -supposed- to ignore them, though, are you? 16:42:25 Well, not if you actually want the interruption protocol to work out. :) 16:42:37 I know that the unwind part of the C++ ABI says that you're not allowed to ignore them, as does the relevant section of the Win32 and Win64 APIs. 16:45:28 (For the record, we currently ignore that part of the API for Win32.) 16:45:40 But, in C you can use signals to force stuff like select() or sleep() to return earlier. Any way to do something like that to, say, cl:sleep? 16:45:53 luis: the principled way is to do (when *stop-now* (gtfo)) in your code, in the appropriate places... 16:46:12 nikodemus: you can use semaphores for mutual exclusion, competing for limited resource, and for cooperation/synchronization points 16:46:14 nikodemus: right, but what if your code is waiting in a select() or sleep? 16:46:42 luis: you can limit the timeout to a certain maximum 16:46:45 like 1s 16:46:53 yeah 16:46:56 it's what iolib's multiplexer does 16:46:57 I rather have different entities solving one problem that can then be composed 16:47:35 I guess I prefer using a dummy pipe to wake select up when needed. :-/ 16:47:35 Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-38-221.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:47:43 or that :) 16:47:48 it's not a dummy! 16:47:49 though i expect you could use something like (interrupt-thread th (constantly nil)) to interrupt some syscalls 16:48:04 or a pipe, yeah :) 16:48:08 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 16:48:11 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:23 turbo24prg [~turbo24pr@turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:26 morning 16:48:30 waking up your app every second to do nothing is bad for battery life. you shouldn't do that in a library. 16:48:32 process-interrupt on Lispworks and Allegro specifically mention that waiting shall resume after interruption, pff. 16:48:34 You're supposed to use select() for timed waiting anyway, right? 16:48:50 nyef: only if you care about stupid OSes which don't have usleep 16:48:55 is there any format directive for (two-dimensional) arrays? 16:49:39 somehow OSes escaped into the wild with only support for sleep and select, but not usleep. 16:50:24 -!- pmd [~user@d118-75-176-35.try.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:54 is it unsafe to terminate-thread something that is waiting on select()? 16:51:00 turbo24prg: nope. 16:51:04 foom: Does usleep also return if someone writes to a pipe? 16:51:04 luis: my impression is that they intend process-interrupt only as a means of reading thread-local state 16:51:12 nyef: of course not. 16:51:28 foom: So... select(), then? 16:51:43 for sleeping while also waiting for a pipe, yes. 16:51:50 fe[nl]ix: yeah, for me it's not obvious what process-interrupt can be safely used for. 16:52:05 but there are traditional recommendations that you use select for straight-up sleeping, which is what I thought you were referring to. 16:52:24 That too, really. 16:52:47 gigamonkey: dang, thanks 16:53:09 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54:09 turbo24prg: Tamas Papp has some for his matrices library 16:54:26 nikodemus pasted "science, not opinion!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96419 16:54:38 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:55:22 tcr: there :) 16:55:29 foom: hoy 16:55:47 nikodemus: yo. 16:56:12 nikodemus: sure but semaphore is an overloaded entity. I'd rather see Franz-style gates 16:56:31 gates are so last year. Let's have funnels and corkscrews! 16:56:55 nikodemus: My point is that I prefer small tools that do just one thing conceptually, and that you can then compose. Ideally anyway. Composity is often difficult to achieve. 16:58:02 tcr: all the more reason to mislike condition variables! 16:58:43 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: WAAAAAAAAGH!!] 16:59:22 semaphores are extremely simple to use -- and you only use them to do one thing at a time, and that is pretty much always obvious from the context] 16:59:33 WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:57 My impression is exactly backwards 17:00:03 Muld [~wr23@102.168.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:00:05 -!- Lycurgus [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 17:00:12 jewel [~jewel@vc-41-29-99-227.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:00:16 matehat [~matehat@modemcable158.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:00:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 17:00:56 heh 17:00:59 maden [~maden@dsl-153-44.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 17:03:12 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 17:03:21 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:04:38 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:05:54 -!- jewel [~jewel@vc-41-29-99-227.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:07:29 -!- lat__ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:13:19 -!- drewc```` is now known as drewc 17:14:32 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has joined #lisp 17:15:14 Hey Krystof 17:15:33 bah if only there was a report-condition GF 17:15:47 -!- Younder [~jthing@212.251.245.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:16:11 Younder [~jthing@212.251.245.39] has joined #lisp 17:17:18 tcr: what would it do ? 17:17:26 hello! 17:17:43 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.86.108] has joined #lisp 17:18:33 Krystof: I have a question about your poor relations with academic journals. 17:18:40 ok 17:18:47 Is it specifically due to the demand that you assign copyright? 17:18:50 fe[nl]ix: the (:report ...) clause in define-condition would default to it 17:18:56 Or that you get no publication right for your own personal web site. 17:19:01 Or something else? 17:19:02 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:19:13 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has left #lisp 17:19:24 tcr: you can use (:report print-object) 17:19:27 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:19:37 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:19:38 the copyright assignment is the most obnoxious part 17:19:53 mostly because it is justified completely speciously 17:20:06 How do they justify it? 17:20:14 I've seen "in order to be able to detect and combat plagiarism" 17:20:39 Eh? 17:20:40 lol 17:20:57 That's... an odd justification. 17:21:08 So I'm realizing that if for Code Quarterly I'm going to work extensively with authors, helping them write and rewrite their pieces, the copyright question gets pretty murky. 17:21:13 Where's the mechanism? 17:21:36 Which would obviously be vastly simplified by having authors assign copyright to the Quarterly. 17:21:44 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:53 But I get why that's unappealing to writers. 17:22:09 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.124.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:23:00 baby attack 17:23:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 17:23:13 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:23:57 slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:32 gigamonkey: right. It's probably a combination of expedience and desire for monopoly powers 17:24:55 (still under baby attack 17:25:43 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-201-44.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:01 *Xach* has a baby that unerringly goes for the power button on the macbook, leading to devastating attacks 17:26:32 skv [~alx@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:37 *drewc* has three ferrets that love to trash hardware and attack regularly... does that count? 17:26:42 So in the hypothetical case were you were writing for CQ, how would you feel about assigning copyright to the magazine assuming that a) we're really going to do a fair bit of work with you on shaping the piece; b) to the extent we make money, you make money; c) we license back to you the right to publish your own piece on your own web site? 17:27:05 *gigamonkey* has witnessed (electronically) a ferret attack on drew's computer. 17:28:21 gigamonkey: it's the 'out of print' and 'acm' scenario that worries technical authors the most i think. Writing something that is only available to paying customers of some organisation, or by tracking down out of print journals... that stinks. 17:28:49 right, a time-limited and reversible grant would probably be OK 17:28:57 the other thing is that (c) isn't really generous enough 17:29:35 for example, it would seem to suggest that every time I give a presentation which uses a diagram I prepared for CQ I'd have to clear it with you 17:30:00 Sounds like you need a license to create derivative works? 17:30:02 (a) and (b) are noticeably different from scientific publishing; I'd be willing to do an experiment and see how I feel about it 17:30:02 Oh, I forget d) We would make it available online for free too. 17:30:24 so maybe I give you the grant for as long as d) holds? 17:30:31 gigamonkey: in the case where something was edited and re-written extensively by us, i think we should retain copyright... and that's where it gets tricky i suppose 17:30:36 gigamonkey: I think I'd prefer copyright staying with author but with time-limited exclusivity contract. Also, there are law systems where you cannot reassign copyright, only the financial/material part of it 17:31:14 in case of extensive work done on the side of CQ, it would be shared copyright (like in case of two or more authors) 17:32:50 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:32:51 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@89-178-179-92.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 17:32:55 p_l: in those systems is it impossible to do a work-for-hire (i.e. if the piece is not yet written, can you not contract to do the work for someone else with them holding the copyright?) 17:33:31 postamar [~postamar@206-248-165-139.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:46 oudeis [~oudeis@93-173-202-180.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:34:01 Krystof: so if we expanded (c) to specifically include personal use in presentations and lectures, does that cover things you'd want better? 17:34:25 gigamonkey: it is possible, it's just that it is handled slightly differently from US model 17:34:54 gigamonkey: In Poland, the copyright is split into two parts - "author rights" and "material/financial rights" 17:35:04 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.86.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:35:46 the ownership of the first part depends mostly in how the work was created, and is non-transferrable 17:37:02 in case of articles in papers/journals, afaik authorship goes to writer, financial rights depend on contract between publisher and author 17:37:19 with financial part being time-limited 17:37:59 p_l: but aren't academic papers usually written first and then submitted to the journals? That's, perhaps, different from the case where the author proposes a piece and then the magazine hires them to write it. 17:38:00 gigamonkey: that would certainly be worth experimenting with 17:38:40 Actually we could make it even a bit sweeter: we give you a license to use the thing as it appeared, including diagrams, etc. that we had prepared for your article. 17:38:47 Apress has something similar in their book contracts. 17:39:38 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:40:27 this daylight savings thing is really hard on the mind/body... they should make a 'transition week' where we lose 10 minutes a day rather than this hour at once thing. 17:40:50 did that happen just now for you? 17:41:00 oh yeah, you changed that recently. 17:41:02 Yeah, drewc, because that would be a lot easier to handle for keeping appointments, programming software, etc. 17:41:40 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:48 gigamonkey: pfft... my doctor doesn't mind if i'm 10 minutes _early_ ;) 17:42:12 *p_l* never had problem with DST switch... but he can get jetlagged after 1h timezone change 17:42:23 as for software, well, we pay those wankers to do something besides sit in their cubes and read reddit all day! 17:42:50 tic: yeah, yesterday was the first full day of the new time 17:43:52 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:43:54 Draggor [~Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:57 p_l: i woke up this morning at the same time i have natuarally been waking up for months... only today the clock said it was an hour later. that screws with my internal timekeeping mechanism :) 17:44:01 drewc, so.. did it save any energy? 17:44:42 tic: i bet the extra coffee brewed this morning sucked up a lot of energy :) 17:44:50 *drewc* is on pot 2 already 17:45:00 Heh. 17:45:28 kind of reminds my of this : http://www.behindthenethockey.com/2010/3/9/1364368/edmonton-water-usage-during-the 17:45:34 me* 17:45:41 drewc: I recommend getting an industrial coffee machine, then ;-) 17:46:01 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:46:09 drewc, yeah, you could probably plot up interesting data. 17:46:15 p_l: no room! living on a boat has some disadvantages 17:46:31 tic: apparently, today is the car and work accident spike day 17:46:33 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:45 You should be able to build one that runs off your calorifier though 17:46:48 drewc, no shit, forcing people up one hour earleir. 17:47:29 drewc: think of all the energy that will be saved with all those cars gone! 17:47:56 antifuchs: good point... and every dead person is one less oxygen breather...... 17:48:03 there you go 17:48:04 they could be on to something! 17:48:14 soylent green party? 17:48:27 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-46-47.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 17:48:33 haha 17:48:34 indeed 17:48:56 Xach: brilliant :) 17:49:43 drewc: Do you have an office inside this boat? (or are you just dangling your feet over the side into the water?) 17:50:17 -!- Edward [~Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-38-221.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:51:35 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-akzdddheyvyocsku] has joined #lisp 17:52:00 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:52:30 Edward [Ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-26-83.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:52:34 austinh: it's not really a big enough boat to have single use rooms.... i'm in the office/kitchen/bedroom/salon now 17:53:25 my big boat has a space designated as 'office', but right now it looks more like 'construction zone'. 17:53:35 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:53:55 and, actually, this boat has a space for a desk, i just haven't built it yet. 17:54:23 How does boat living compare with living on land, economically? 17:54:37 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:40 living on the boat? cheap. 17:55:02 Does that include the cost of keeping the boat in working order? 17:55:05 drewc: I'd love to see pictures, if you ever post any. It's always interesting to hear about it. 17:55:08 i pay roughly $400/mo for the little boat to live at a dock with all the luxuries 17:55:21 nyef: heh... nope ;) 17:55:28 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:56:09 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@93-173-202-180.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:56:12 lets just say that one does not get involved in boats to save money. One can (and i do) save money, but if that's the reasoning behind boating, you're entering a world of pain. 17:56:21 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:56:37 *Xach* got involved in lisp to make lots of money 17:56:50 and most of my savings are because of a simpler and more basic lifestyle rather than anything do so specifically with living on a boat. 17:57:02 *Xach* prepares a club with which to beat the averages 17:57:03 still, i recommend it. great life 17:57:31 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:54 So, what are good reasons to get involved in boats, particularly for living-on? 17:58:13 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.18.242] has joined #lisp 17:58:17 The steady rocking motion builds up inner-ear strength. 17:58:21 drewc: My other Vancouver-area-boat-living-geek-friend-named-Drew is on a trimaran named Tie Fighter. He's usually around False Creek or English Bay. He seems to have troubles: http://disengage.ca/ 17:58:32 gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has joined #lisp 17:59:00 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-20-202.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:30 nyef: self sufficiency, low impact living, owning rather than renting.. and dirt cheap compared to buying waterfrom property :) 17:59:38 front* 18:00:10 And if you don't like the view, you can change it without giving up your home 18:00:44 drewc: Also, you "get" to learn a lot about boats :) 18:00:49 sellout: i've seen that boat around :) 18:01:06 sellout: yeah, in a hurry usually :) 18:01:11 lol 18:02:43 drewc: You should say hi next time you see him. Laid back guy. One of my best friends when I lived in Van. 18:03:25 sellout: i most certainly will... us boaters are a a friendly bunch and always looking at an excuse to look at someone elses boat/lifestyle :) 18:03:39 He's also a ninja sysadmin. 18:03:41 drewc: How much freezer/fridge space do you have, and do you have a good oven? 18:03:47 nyef: 0 and 0 18:03:52 Ah. 18:04:06 this boat is small... the big boat etc etc 18:04:21 but we probably will still avoid refrigeration. 18:04:26 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-akzdddheyvyocsku] has left #lisp 18:04:31 a freezer/ and icebox for sure. 18:05:15 Hrm... No oven? 18:05:36 nope... we bake in cast iron on the stovetop 18:05:41 Has anyone heard/seen anything about the upcoming "Practical Clojure"? 18:05:54 I guess that works, though it'd make it hard to bake pizza... 18:06:02 pizza on the grill 18:06:08 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181150041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:06:18 it's not a saiboat without a bbq attached to the stern rail! 18:06:37 ... Fair enough. I have a copy of a book by that name, though I've never tried it. 18:06:55 much closer to a 'real' pizza than what can be done in an oven 18:07:03 we do our naan there as well 18:07:16 Heh. You should read Jeffrey Steingarten's book, "The Man Who Ate Everything". 18:07:19 *p_l* thought living on a boat was "eccentric". Now he had seen houses that can be towed... 18:07:23 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441854.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 18:07:30 our standard 'bread' is "boston brown bread", which is steamed. 18:07:42 -!- Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:07:45 He has a chapter on trying to find an oven hot enough to recreate the temperatures in wood-fired oven at a real pizza joint. 18:08:01 gigamonkey: you have to disable the lock on the door of a self-cleaning oven 18:08:12 *drewc* is a bit of a pizza fanatic 18:08:12 'morning 18:08:19 He tried that and was defeated by the lock. 18:08:34 angle grinders always win 18:08:40 (His attempt was to unplug the whole thing when it was time to take out the pizza but he was a bit too late and got a bunch of ashes.) 18:09:04 Anyway, he eventually stuffed a giant covered grill full of wood and got it up to 700-750 degrees. 18:09:11 but a small marine grill actually works great if you use the 2 stone method 18:09:26 -!- aniline [~aniline@59.92.179.95] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:09:30 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082F48D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:34 this year we're building an outdoor cob oven on the little island across the way. 18:09:39 gigamonkey: http://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.com/2010/03/whats-on-coders-minds.html made an interesting graph 18:09:59 I guess my next question is how things work out in wintertime. 18:10:12 there's little winter in B.C. 18:10:29 nyef: we have had one winter in the three years we;ve been on board 18:10:41 it was tough actually... the river froze right over 18:10:41 drewc / gigamonkey: http://www.cookingforgeeks.com/blog/posts/overclocked-ovens/ 18:11:09 sellout: nice! 18:11:41 nyef: but at the dock we can use electric heat, which is cheap and relatively dry. the big issue on a plastic boat is condensation 18:11:57 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:12:11 so this year we insulated the hull, which helped quite a bit. 18:12:30 and a tarp tent over the topsides keeps the heat in and the rain out. 18:13:08 heh. "So, among the important pears of our coders were: * Richard Stallman" 18:13:15 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082DE27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:13:27 Xach: neat. That guy read Coders more carefully than I ever did. ;-) 18:14:46 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 18:15:43 oh god, now I want pizza 18:15:44 thanks, sellout (: 18:16:16 the best thing about pizza is that unless you're in italy you can get a good one pretty much everywhere. 18:16:17 heh, i'm already mixing dough so i can have a panzerotto for lunch :) 18:16:41 joe2 [~pobameme@salle008.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has joined #lisp 18:16:51 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 18:17:38 (i've found that good pizza takes a lot of time and effort, whereas good panzerotti really just depends on your ability to drop it in the fryer) 18:18:02 does someone know how to print non-ascii character? 18:18:16 joe2: you're trying this on sbcl, aren't you (: 18:18:36 richard stallman has peers? :/ 18:18:37 with slime 18:18:43 antifuchs: hahaha :) 18:18:48 but it usees sblc right? 18:18:52 sbcl sorry 18:19:02 depends on your setup, really 18:19:05 krasno [~nathan@c-68-48-197-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:16 joe2: no, slime usues any lisp/scheme/clojure you can hook up to it :) 18:19:20 but it's a similar process in other implementations (: 18:19:37 -!- krasno [~nathan@c-68-48-197-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:19:54 anyway, (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) is it, right? 18:19:55 I heard about flexistreams 18:19:56 joe2: you need to choose an appropriate external format that will print your abstract characters as the right byte sequences 18:20:02 then you just print them to the stream. 18:20:09 Fade: Toronto is a _shitty_ pizza town. I know a few good places, but on the average it stinks. 18:20:12 that should be it, luis 18:20:21 I want to read a file with non-ascii characters and print it 18:20:34 Fade: one nice thing about BC, there is not a PizzaPizza to be found ;) 18:20:42 one of my favourite pizzas in the world is in Toronto. 18:20:50 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:20:55 Fade: at Hornero? 18:21:02 as far as I'm concerned, a city only needs one really great pizza joint. 18:21:02 joe2: so, what's going wrong? 18:21:03 right. then you pass the :external-format argument to OPEN (or WITH-OPEN-FILE) and use the right external 18:21:06 bitondo's 18:21:10 ...format 18:21:11 that's a good pie too 18:21:43 also that place at queen/bathurst area open late with the great spinachi 18:21:53 ok and the after I can make "read-char" and "write-char" and it will print some arabuc character?? 18:21:55 pizzapizza is actually a kind of pizza junkfood that is measured on it's own scale separately from all other pizza. 18:22:11 felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has joined #lisp 18:22:12 Fade: you won't hear any arguments from me :) 18:22:26 sometimes, that's what you want, but don't call it pizza. ;) 18:23:09 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-46-47.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: I haven't had a decent slice of pizza in nearly seven months. This is torture.] 18:24:05 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:24:12 poor hefner... we should switch to talking about Tom Yum or something :) 18:25:15 joe2: that depends where you are writing that char to 18:25:46 joe2: writing a utf-8 char to an ascii stream, for example, is not going to work. 18:26:57 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200.234.208.50] has joined #lisp 18:26:59 Fade: http://delectabletoronto.blogspot.com/2009/05/hornero-wood-burning-oven-baked-pizzas.html <--- second best pizza in Canada IMO 18:27:01 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200.234.208.50] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:27:17 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200.234.208.50] has joined #lisp 18:27:32 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200.234.208.50] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:27:42 tcr pasted "slime config: slime-lisp-implementations, utf8" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96424 18:27:46 (that review is not very good actually) 18:27:50 is that real pizza, or that awful italian style stuff that's like a hot round cracker with some cheese waved at it? 18:28:01 joe2: see there what to place into your .emacs 18:28:08 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200.234.208.50] has joined #lisp 18:28:13 as far as I'm concerned pizza was inveented in NYC. 18:28:23 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200.234.208.50] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:28:34 they are not quite a neopolitan, not quite an nyc. in the middle. 18:28:42 chewy, thicker crust 18:28:53 fmeyer [~fmeyer@200.234.208.50] has joined #lisp 18:29:00 *Fade* nods 18:29:00 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:29:05 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@200.234.208.50] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:29:09 but not at all chicago style... i'd call it toronto style pie and people would know what i mean :) 18:29:13 there used to be a place here in Vic that was pretty good. Pacific Rim Pizza. 18:29:37 they had this thing where you ordered the pizza in a given size, and the toppings were included in that price. 18:29:56 nom. 18:30:14 So places that use dd-mm-yyyy dates, when you leave out the year I assume it's just dd-mm (or dd/mm). Is that right? So today is 15/3? 18:30:24 Yes 18:30:28 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:31:06 prxq [~mommer@g227079099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:31:23 In Germany we use dd.mm.yyyy, but I've never seen the year to be left out. We commonly only include the last two digits of the year though, so today's 15.3.10 18:32:07 hi 18:32:55 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:59 I was disappointed late last night to realize that I had missed celebrating pi day properly... Unless you count having made pizza. 18:33:30 And that's a bit of a stretch. 18:33:43 Well, for example, Mexican independence is celebrated on 16/9 every year, it would be silly to include the year in that type of date. 18:34:21 I guess there's no pi day in Europe. 18:34:23 ah true 18:34:24 (I suppose the end of april could also be pi day, but that's also a stretch.) 18:34:42 Hrm... Or not. 18:34:49 gigamonkey: I've seen both mm/dd and dd/mm used, except if year is included, it's either big or little endian, not dumbass-endian 18:35:05 p_l: excuse me, "middle-endian" 18:35:17 :) 18:35:23 No, no, let's go with dumbass-endian. 18:35:41 in finland the year is left out pretty often. i.e. it's 15.3. today :> 18:35:45 gigamonkey: mm/dd/yyyy is something I'll bash till the end of my life, I suspect. It evokes greater aversion in me than goatse. 18:35:50 ("This is why we go with month name abbreviations instead of month numbers...") 18:35:57 american date formatting is crazy, and i've lived in north america most of my life. 18:36:07 You could do first of march, and be done with it. It's only one digit less 18:36:18 Fade: that's nothing compared to the units 18:36:24 prxq: "Accurate to within experimental error"? 18:36:28 I'm just trying to think of any oter context where the middle can be an end. 18:36:33 other 18:36:35 nyef: righty :-) 18:37:13 well, the way they hold on to the imperial weights and measures is definitely up there on the list of 'bizarre american stuff'. 18:37:46 -!- joe2 [~pobameme@salle008.emi.u-bordeaux1.fr] has left #lisp 18:38:11 Fade: also, blocking progress in aviation by exporting equipment that requires upholding of temporary permission for usage of imperial units in air traffic control should be considered an international crime. 18:38:16 cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 18:38:41 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:38:53 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-177.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:07 clhs defclass 18:39:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm 18:39:10 the Gimli Glider was the result of an imperial/metric snafu on the ground crew. 18:40:04 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:40:04 milanj [~milan@77.46.210.28] has joined #lisp 18:40:09 ... I have to create a boa-constructor for a class manually, don't I? 18:40:23 mishoo [~mishoo@host54-105-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:40:26 yup. 18:40:36 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.10] has joined #lisp 18:40:44 Fade: I personally have great amusement towards the fact that every time western plane has to fly to former Soviet Russia, they have to constantly convert units. (Soviet Union didn't approve imperial units) 18:40:51 slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 18:41:45 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 18:41:50 all US planes use metric units now. 18:42:03 jmbr [~jmbr@60.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:42:07 well, anything after the 767 18:42:30 Fade: maybe for fuel. Not for navigation, altitude, speed etc. 18:42:34 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:43 I do not want my altitude in meters, thank you very much. 18:43:01 -!- kenpp [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:43:05 furlongs? 18:43:05 nyef pasted "Does this look right for the CLIM MAKE-TRANSFORMATION function?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96425 18:43:08 ah, I know for fuel. I assumed that if they converted fuel, avionics would be converted, too. 18:43:38 otherwise the flight computer will be doing miles/kg 18:43:51 Fade: nope, they are stubborn. Caused a lot of problems for Polish Air Forces as well, when they got used MiGs with imperial units 18:44:26 Fade: they do NM/kg. Nautical Miles are kinda accepted, since they actually have a reason for existence unlike inch/feet/mile system :P 18:44:44 There are many rules and rules of thumb that rely on altitude in feet. I guess if I were a Soviet pilot, I'd be singing another tune. 18:45:06 It is silly to insist on imperial units, and it's silly to insist on date formats other than ISO8601. From experience I know that it takes a lot less than a single generation to make the change. 18:45:55 [And good evening everyone] 18:45:57 -!- matehat [~matehat@modemcable158.205-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:12 hey, beach 18:46:13 rme: my personal rule is that a) Imperial Units are only "temporarily" allowed for international radio traffic b) imperial unit system is brain damaged by itself (IMO) c) rules of thumb are easy to change 18:46:26 Hello beach. 18:46:27 *personal pov 18:46:37 beach: hello 18:46:57 well, if the UK has converted to metric, I see no reason why the US doesn't. 18:47:03 CLOS question: Does anyone have an elegant encapsulation/delegation idiom for CLOS? I.e., stick object A into object B and delegate all A-relevant method calls from B to the A object? 18:47:05 the imperium is long dead. ;) 18:47:28 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:47:41 rme: Though I admit to being completely lost when piloting a glider with imperial units. I somehow managed IAS in knots (though I couldn't make out proper speed), but variometer was unreadable :/ 18:47:50 Fade: The main reason is that the most conservative people emigrated and the most radical ones remained. 18:48:26 beach: Yeah, like Emma Goldman ;-) 18:48:37 hah 18:48:45 is anyone aware of any CL implementation that works on arm? 18:48:59 unfortunately UK didn't truly convert to metric, though I'll admit it's much more bearable than it would be in US... 18:49:00 -!- anekos [~anekos@pl572.nas924.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:49:06 PuffTheMagic: clisp, ecl, gcl 18:49:13 This being a statistical observation, rather than an observation on every individual (which I frequently have to explain, and which frequently surprises me). 18:49:16 Seriously, anyone have a nice set of macros to say "dump all these method calls from me to my FOO slot value?" 18:49:22 thanks 18:49:35 PuffTheMagic: I definitely recommend *agains* GCL 18:49:37 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:49:39 *against 18:49:44 yeah i've heard that 18:49:45 rpg: I'm curious too. I don't see how that fits in CLOS's generic-function style, though it's obvious in a message-passing style. 18:49:51 i was looking at ecls 18:50:02 but somsone just told me it didnt support arm 18:50:04 Xach: Right. But it's a common refactoring thing to want to do. 18:50:07 so i wanted to double check 18:50:26 "Ooops, I shouldn't have make X be a subtype of Y, but I need X to act like a Y." 18:50:50 E.g., I'm working on some old code where someone made a system object have an ISA relationship to a logger object. 18:51:07 Ugh. Debain installs emacs stuff as .elc files without the corresponding source? 18:51:15 As a sailor, i see great value in non-standard measurements. a fathom, a cable, a mile.... all these describe distances at sea better than 'two metres', 'two hundred or so meters' or '1.85 kilometers' 18:51:24 p_l: I'd be equally lost flying with a metric altimeter/vsi. I guess I'd get used to it, but equivalents to rules like "eastbound flight is at odd thousands (+ 500 if VFR)" would have to be beaten into my head again. 18:51:25 Bad consequence: can't create a freestanding logger object to log when things go wrong initializing the system object... 18:51:30 drewc: really :D 18:51:46 they really don't 18:52:10 nyef: Yeah, I hate that. All the linux distros seem to do that now. 18:52:27 drewc: that's because those measurement are directly linked to what units you use in other places. One of the reasons why NM are accepted even with metric system :) 18:53:04 guaqua: how many minutes in a kilometre? ;) 18:53:11 nngh 18:53:19 that's true 18:53:25 nyef: you have to install an extra package for the sources 18:53:26 p_l: true, nm is a real standard 18:53:31 there's also a package which contains the debug symbols 18:53:33 nyef: How many programmer hours are squandered, pulling apart these systems, so that we can squander more hours putting them back together, and all to save --- disk space? 18:53:46 tcr: Lovely. Which package for auctex? 18:53:51 if you believe the earth is round and a perfect sphere anyway :P 18:53:54 that's what I meant. However, feets have no place in airplane other than method of controlling rudder ;-) 18:54:10 sepisultrum [~sepiultru@hcl-club.lu] has joined #lisp 18:54:19 p_l: "feet" is already plural. 18:54:40 p_l: feet are still used in north america to describe the length of boats... this is mostly because of the americas cup and other US rule systems. 18:55:02 p_l: and height of masts, etc etc. 18:55:04 the same here in finland 18:55:09 rpg: Yeah, and now I'm wasting time that could be spent figuring out how to find the sources instead of actually -reading- them... 18:55:13 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 18:55:14 mast heights are in meters 18:55:52 nyef: If you find a "disk glutton" linux distro, let me know! My time is more valuable that the odd gigabyte. 18:55:55 i keep my depth sounder on fathoms, as one fathom has meaning as 'draft of my boat' 18:56:05 beach: right. I'm getting sleepy and making more spelling errors 18:56:18 p_l: Been up too long? 18:57:01 beach: and with bad sleep pattern 18:57:09 also, because milled wood in most of north america is milled in imperial. 18:57:17 p_l: sorry to hear that! 18:57:22 the 'small' 2x4's in canada really confuse american crews up here. 18:58:36 nyef: there's a package that has all the source files: emacs23-el, iirc 18:58:57 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:59:08 Fade: I'm looking at a specific extension package, unfortunately. :-/ 18:59:16 ah 18:59:28 does it have a -dev package? 19:00:00 Not that I see. 19:00:15 you may have to apt-get source 19:00:31 and 'point northwest by west about a cable from that can' sounds a lot more shippy than 'keep the compass pointed between 300 and 310 degrees or so while maintianing a distance of approximately 200 meters from that navigation marker buoy' 19:00:36 Did that. Not pleased about where it put the source, but it's tolerable. 19:00:51 *nod* 19:01:06 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:01:20 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-79-183-20-202.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:01:45 drewc: I'll take metric over sounding salty almost every time. :) 19:03:17 nyef: What package? 19:03:21 anekos [~anekos@pl663.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:03:29 cpt_nemo: auctex 19:03:58 It has some fun behavior that I want to splice into a lisp mode of some sort. 19:04:14 Fade: jargon has value in the ability to convey context-sensitive information in an efficient way. 19:04:16 Hm, my auctex has sources in /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/auctex/. 19:04:28 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:04:32 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181201111.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:04:33 And the .els are in the regular package. 19:04:47 Ugh. Okay, now I see them. 19:04:54 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 19:05:10 Why are they split up, and why doesn't emacs know about the different locations? 19:05:20 nyef: dpkg -L auctex | grep -E "\.el$" 19:06:00 when i try and cross compile ecl it tells me i need to fill out a file named: ...... 19:06:02 In Debian, .els for additional modes from separate packages are usually compiled at install time. 19:06:06 but the same is always blank 19:06:18 anyone know what im supposed to do? 19:06:24 Fade: you can mark your lead line in metres if you so chose, but you don't get to call the 4 metre point 'mark twain' :D 19:06:37 *Fade* laughs 19:06:52 Fade: mind is in fathoms, with the traditional knot shapes and materials :) 19:06:57 mine* 19:07:02 That one-liner looks like the sort of thing that I might be able to think of if I had more than four days of actual debian experience. 19:07:02 PuffTheMagic: sounds like a case for the ecl mailing list 19:07:04 though that's true for my mind as well :P 19:07:10 drewc: that doesn't surprise me in the least. :) 19:07:16 LeoDioxide [~bob@c-68-59-10-186.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:49 PuffTheMagic: what you are trying to do is not done very often, so no one here can help you, apparently 19:09:00 leodioxide pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96430 19:09:20 LeoDioxide: too many parenthesis 19:09:25 oh. 19:09:35 really? 19:09:40 really! 19:09:44 lol 19:09:52 LeoDioxide: And it's badly indented too! 19:09:58 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 19:10:08 well yeah, where do I remove the parenthesis? 19:10:09 you can't stuff arbitrarily many parenthesis and expect it to work 19:10:24 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:10:30 LeoDioxide: around (bar ...) 19:10:30 so in trying to pass the car of a list, I make a (car mylist) call, yes? 19:10:35 oh. 19:10:37 Hun` [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:38 I feel stupid 19:10:39 LeoDioxide: Plus, you are using CamelCase, which is not done in Lisp. Where did you learn to program in Lisp? 19:10:46 didn't 19:10:54 LeoDioxide: and what editor are you using? 19:10:57 LeoDioxide: Not stupid. Ignorent perhaps, but that can be fixed. 19:10:59 emacs 19:11:10 LeoDioxide: You forgot to do C-i or TAB. 19:11:33 Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:11:34 LeoDioxide: A '(' is never followed by whitespace. 19:11:44 mmk 19:11:47 LeoDioxide: A ') is never precede by whitespace. 19:12:08 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:16 i've seen people using that convention twice this week; what language spawns it? 19:12:34 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@60.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:12:57 really it was just inability to read it easily in my head 19:13:08 anyone can point me in the right direction for unable to optimize %SAP-ALIEN warnings and how I could silence them in SBCL? 19:13:18 (char-code #\ ) 19:13:20 (function in question is SB-POSIX:STAT in a loop) 19:13:25 ) is preceded by whitespace! 19:13:37 -!- Hun` [~hun@95-90-29-168-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:42 LeoDioxide: If you type ((bar (car myList))), this means that (because the outer (), you are calling a function that can be described with (bar (car myList)) but that is an illegal way of describing a function in Common Lisp. 19:13:50 *gigamonkey* whacks stassats` with an invisible stick 19:14:07 lisp blows my mind in general 19:14:29 minion: tell LeoDioxide about PCL 19:14:29 LeoDioxide: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:14:30 LeoDioxide, I recommend the book Practical Common Lisp, in case you haven't start reading it. 19:14:31 *beach* agrees with gigamonkey, but appreciates the counterexample. 19:14:52 LeoDioxide: So why are you trying so hard? 19:14:59 ?? 19:15:03 to define a function? 19:15:13 To use Lisp? 19:15:24 working on a parser 19:15:30 For? 19:15:34 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:36 fun! 19:15:40 well, what should it parse? 19:15:52 LeoDioxide: So you really want to learn Lisp then? 19:15:55 a string according to a grammar 19:15:59 yeah 19:16:06 rather, a set of tokens 19:16:13 (in which case, this is a good place to be, and you will never regret it). 19:16:23 LeoDioxide, that is the definition of a parser, yes. 19:16:43 hah, I don't want to give too much away, I'm doing for learning not to be told how :] 19:16:57 Sure, I'm just curious. 19:17:30 LeoDioxide: Oh, but that's a great misunderstanding. Learning about how to program, is 99% about being told what to do and what not to do. 19:17:31 jdz [~jdz@81.198.241.173] has joined #lisp 19:18:04 the other 25% is math 19:18:11 haha 19:18:20 and where is copy-n-paste? 19:18:22 for example, we wouldn't want you to develop bad style. Which seems to be more important in Lisp than other languages. 19:18:28 LeoDioxide: Or as I put it to my students: "about being able to distinguish between grammatical and idiomatic phrases of the language". 19:18:41 stassats`, "told what to do", maybe? "Here's a patch, apply it.". Kind-of c'n'p programming. 19:19:01 anyone can help me out on how to suppress optimization warnings? 19:19:06 cargo-cult programming 19:19:15 ... I don't have a lisp handy, is |$M_{xx}'$| a valid symbol? 19:19:22 nyef: were you looking for me the other day? 19:19:30 gigamonkey: ... I forget? 19:19:33 stassats`, the best way! 19:19:34 nyef: my guess is yes. 19:19:43 nyef: on the symbol that is. 19:19:51 Ah, good. 19:20:00 tic: i disagree. style is less of a problem in cl than in most other languages. 19:20:01 empirically, it's valid in SBCL 19:20:09 isn't gigamonkey the name of that website that has the practical common lisp book up? 19:20:14 If it's valid in SBCL, that's good enough for me. Thanks. 19:20:17 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-33-115-57.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:20:18 LeoDioxide: yes. 19:20:25 prxq, let's define style first, shall we? 19:20:27 are you peter siebel? 19:20:30 Yes. 19:20:34 I quake. 19:20:49 you enjoy that gigamonkey? ;) 19:20:57 What am I, chopped liver? 19:21:00 Actually I'm Peter Seibel. (note the i/e transposition.) 19:21:09 tic: however you wish. I think programming in lisp already implies some style and class :-] 19:21:11 Shaftoe: it's moderately enjoyable. 19:21:19 =) 19:21:19 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:21:23 mybad 19:21:26 prxq: one can write fortran in any language 19:21:29 LeoDioxide: meet Xach, my co-author. 19:21:31 Well, do enjoy it. There's nothing wrong there =) 19:21:34 prxq, I'm thinking of whatever idioms one uses in Lisp. (and what stassats` said) 19:21:35 heh! 19:21:48 hi Xach 19:22:46 LeoDioxide: gigamonkey is making a joke. All Xach did was to invent the term "A dead-sexy book" (or something like that). 19:22:49 stassats`: right, but not even in fortran one can get away so well with it 19:23:04 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:23:09 beach: well, it is on the cover of the book. 19:23:19 gigamonkey: granted. 19:23:20 if it works, you can get away with it (sometimes even when it doesn't) 19:23:24 and the front cover is one of the two most important covers of a book. 19:23:25 "that book is dead sexy" 19:23:38 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:24:01 LeoDioxide: But I think you will find a surprising number of people here who are authors of important pieces of work in the "Lisp community". 19:24:36 Harag pasted "Mop help please" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96432 19:25:24 I feel like there there should be a chain of command for this stuff 19:26:03 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:26:08 mop:ensure-class? 19:26:19 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:26:24 add-method? 19:26:29 tic, stassats`, I was refering to the fact that style isn't by far as much a make-or-break issue in CL than in other languages. If you program with poor style in C++, you'll run into serious problems. 19:26:46 LeoDioxide: For what kind of stuff? 19:26:56 stassats`: add-method? 19:27:04 me not bothering the important peoples 19:27:08 clhs add-method 19:27:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_add_me.htm 19:27:11 prxq, in Lisp, you'll merely get your eyes poked out by your fellow co-worker who has to read badly styled code? :-) 19:27:11 my* 19:27:34 LeoDioxide: You don't, or they will tell you, or just not come here if they are bothered. 19:27:45 tic: most of the time, yes :-) 19:27:53 stassats`: thats for the method how to do the metaclass is what has me 19:27:56 LeoDioxide: Consider this your unique opportunity for direct democracy. 19:27:57 prxq, but sure, you won't shoot yourself in the foot as badly. 19:28:06 -!- htk_ [~htk___@unaffiliated/htk-/x-9867211] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:28:15 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-232.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:29:18 *beach* goes back to answering emails accumulated because of a day spent being productive with other stuff. 19:31:13 beach: you mean: day spent being productive :) 19:31:22 -!- splittist [~50a9827e@gateway/web/freenode/x-etyjxlqjhsmkfxli] has quit [] 19:32:14 stassats`: or shall I say its building a new class from a combination of super classes and multiple metaclasses 19:32:36 that I cant get my head around 19:32:45 wait wait, camel case isn't used at all? 19:33:03 LeoDioxide: that-is-right 19:33:06 LeoDioxide: frowned upon 19:33:08 ah, dashes 19:33:20 p_l: as a glider pilot, this might interest you: http://www.damninteresting.com/the-gimli-glider 19:33:50 LeoDioxide, see http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html 19:34:23 (and the rest of the book, for that matter - start at the beginning) 19:34:27 thanks, hah 19:34:35 I've been jumping around in it 19:34:38 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-201-44.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: restart] 19:34:44 Get the basics first. 19:35:03 first 20 chapters 19:35:08 at least 19:35:18 I can't wait. 19:35:18 and don't just read... code 19:36:38 Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:45 how about that video series by abelson and sussman? 19:36:56 that's Scheme. Doesn't teach you Common Lisp. 19:37:29 oh dear... I ain't hurt. 19:37:40 it even 19:37:57 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 19:38:07 -!- snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has left #lisp 19:39:00 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 19:40:03 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-156-201-44.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:20 nyef annotated #96425 "This doesn't look quite right under preview, but largely because of having to use CL math operations instead of something "mathier"." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96425#1 19:41:27 snorble [~none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:41:29 nyef: hurts my eyes, but makes me curious. What are you up to? 19:41:49 on first glance it looks like a horrible baby of perl and lisp :) 19:41:53 good lord. 19:42:11 it's TeX 19:42:11 prxq: It's actually for NQCLIM, but if you look at it in tex-mode with auctex installed and preview the buffer... 19:42:17 antonis-froska [~adonis@ppp-94-65-186-9.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:42:39 nyef: somewhere I remember reading, about 12 years ago or so, a (with-summation-convention ...) macro 19:42:52 the Einstein summation convention is the notation you need to make that not suck 19:43:22 Krystof: I'm actually thinking of maybe a source-transformation when rendering to TeX. 19:43:36 hello..i just installed lisp on xubuntu..is there anyway to run it with gui..or i have to use the terminal?? 19:43:36 independent of that 19:43:46 you have a common pattern -- summing over repeated indices 19:43:56 antonis-froska: people usually use emacs as a gui 19:43:56 Mmm. There is that. 19:44:29 is emacs a programm?can i download it from somewhere? 19:44:36 nyef: instead of {xx2} you probably mean {xx_2}, no? 19:44:38 pix4: I realize it is very popular to pick on RMS, but to me he as done a lot of good, and sacrificed a lot of private comfort to accomplish it. I admire him a lot, and I wish I had the courage to make as tough decisions as he has made, but I am just a coward, and he is not. 19:45:02 prxq: Maybe. I'll try that. 19:45:06 antonis-froska: you can install it using the synaptic package manager. What lisp did you install? 19:45:44 prxq i just pressed ..apt-get install clisp 19:45:47 I'm with beach. 19:45:49 -!- rodt [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:53 i think..clisp then.. 19:45:55 I don't understand why RMS is so reviled in lisp land. 19:45:59 nyef: bonus points: if you use the Einstein summation convention, then your code generalizes to arbitrary-dimensional Euclidean space 19:46:13 *Xach* wonders how calling RMS "peerless" is an insult 19:46:16 rodt [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:37 Fade: probably something to do with the bad blood between him and the original Lisp developers who started their own companies. 19:46:47 stipet [~user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:46:47 antonis-froska: right. apt-get install emacs gives you emacs. 19:46:55 Fade: you should read the old CL mailing lists from ITS 19:46:56 Xach: Maybe it isn't. I just wanted to make my opinions clear. 19:47:09 thnx prxq..i will try it 19:47:18 I always sort of assumed it was down to the unintended consequences of the GPL in lisp systems. 19:47:22 Fade: RMS comes off as such a wanker, it's hard to feel sorry for him... which ultimately seems to be what he was trying to achieve 19:47:33 beach: I really love what he accomplished either. but Ill bugger off next time I see him anyway. 19:47:44 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host54-105-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:48:12 antonis-froska: what book are you using to learn lisp? 19:48:14 drewc: I strongly disagree. That is not at all what he is trying to achieve, and that's not at all how he comes across when you meet him. 19:48:16 He eats his toe jam. 19:48:30 beach: 'in the CL archives' 19:48:44 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:48:49 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:48:53 drewc: Have you actually talked to him for some time? 19:49:11 "please don't allow into common lisp, i'm working by myself and it would require a lot of changes to my code" 19:49:36 drewc: Give the guy a break. 19:49:38 beach: no, i haven't. 19:49:40 prxq..i do not use any book yet,..but i am studying lisp in the university now..and i am a little newby..on that 19:50:00 I met him in Boston once; he came off as an nice, if eccentric guy. 19:50:22 drewc: Well, he has been invited to Bordeaux many times, and I agree he is strange, and I don't like all his opinions, but he is human, so you can reason with him. 19:50:26 beach: i imagine he's a wonderful person and i admire his drive. 19:50:51 And I basically agree with Fade. 19:51:01 "Mad, but a genius" was how someone I respect (and who knows him) described him. 19:51:09 HOPL2-Uncut.pdf will give a good rundown of Lisp history. 19:51:13 beach: it's not personal, i'm just commenting on his social status in the 'lisp community' and possible reasons for it. 19:51:14 Nah, not mad at all. 19:51:38 anyhow, that whole crop of guys from around MIT were sort of mad. Didn't kent pitman go off on the free common lisp implementations not long ago? 19:51:58 drewc: Think of him as an ordinary guy who needs to be informed about what is going on. Instead of brushing him off, we should train him. 19:52:13 what is going on, that he does not know about? 19:52:31 Fade: Depends on your definition of "not long ago". 19:52:35 beach: he's not an ordinary guy, he's an extremist. ;) 19:52:49 tic: He hasn't done the calculation that CL is no longer "huge" compared to other stuff. 19:53:06 saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 19:53:11 point. 19:53:16 nyef: I've never seen the actual source material of the incident. 19:53:34 drewc: I should hope we all are in some domain. For me it's about not owning a car. What else is new? 19:53:49 beach: that's not a bad thing per se, but it does make him hard to reason with. 19:53:59 him/them 19:54:03 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:54:19 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 19:54:19 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 19:54:19 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:54:28 schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:54:36 beach: do you beleive that nobody should own cars? 19:54:38 drewc: Again I disagree. I have had some great discussions with him, and in a very short period of time, he taught me lots of stuff. 19:54:41 or that owning cards is immoral? 19:54:46 cars* 19:54:58 *stassats`* owns a cdr 19:55:08 *drewc* hits stassats`with gigamonkey's invisible stick 19:55:24 *stassats`* didn't notice 19:55:28 stassats` is gonna get the clown hat pretty soon. 19:56:00 beach: you can learn a lot from someone with extreme opinions, and i'm not discounting those opinions. I would _love_ to meet and discuss these points with the man. 19:56:07 clown, a good name for a CL project 19:56:09 drewc: I believe that everyone should have some basic believes and stick to them. I don't particularly like it when people like that think that their particular belief is *the* only important one, but I like it when everyone tries to argue in favor of their choice. 19:57:02 I just always thought it was strange that rms is the but of jokes in lispy circles. I've always respected him. 19:57:08 "say what you want about the tenents of national socialism, but at least it was an ethos!" ? 19:57:20 ahhh, walter 19:57:31 if you're twenty and you don't code open source you got no heart. if you're 30 and only code open source you have no brain. 19:57:36 *drewc* has been doing lebowski this week. 19:57:48 *Fade* abides 19:58:38 drewc: For instance, my nephew is a militant vegetarian. I like the fact that he found something he believes in, but I don't appreciate when he gives me lessons, even though he is a Windows user. Again, grab a domain you care about, run with it, and try to convince people (gently), but don't look down on people who make other choices. 20:00:43 drewc: I have chosen not to own a car, and it has been a very tough choice. But then, I eat meat, so I took the easy way out there. I am not sure what else to say. 20:00:54 beach: i agree 100% (and was vegetarian for almost 10 years before i learned about sustainability). 20:00:58 stipet` [~user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:21 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.220.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:01:27 drewc: Great. I think we understand eachother then. 20:01:45 indeed we do... we just interpret stallman differently :) 20:02:10 -!- stipet [~user@c83-253-28-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:02:10 Lame: You can't call a variable by one name within your function, yet expose it in the arglist in the debugging info by another name unless it's a keyword arg. :-/ 20:02:59 drewc: I can see why. All I am telling you is that he is really just a guy who took one thing and ran with it. You should see him like that, and you will have no problem; I think you would even like him. 20:03:04 -!- Muld [~wr23@102.168.190.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:09 (I could introduce a LET, but that's still less than wonderful.) 20:03:27 beach: i probably would.. i don't have to agree with someone to like them :) 20:03:59 drewc: People with that opinion have come a long step forward. Congratulations! 20:04:43 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 20:04:48 If I would've been working at some university or if I had won the lottery or if there still was social security like there once was, I'd be the one without a brain. 20:05:03 some of my best friends are people with whom i disagree with on many diverse topics... good wine and good conversation and the occaisional fist fight is the norm :) 20:05:21 amen 20:05:25 drewc: That's very healthy. 20:05:52 *stassats`* disagrees with himself 20:06:10 I think it's time for the hat... 20:06:21 drewc: Though lately, I think jsnell is picking on me because of differences in opinion. I probaly hurt his feelings. 20:06:35 Fade: i disagree! 20:07:15 beach: it happens 20:07:31 *beach* disagrees with stassats` (whatever it was). 20:08:04 drewc: It does, but I had thought jsnell would be above that kind of bickering. I must have *really* hurt his feelings. 20:08:42 which is too bad, because he is a nice and intelligent guy. 20:09:25 you'd probably need to drink some wine 20:09:34 wtf? 20:09:48 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:58 guaqua: me? I'm working on it! 20:10:01 I think I'd better read the context on that 20:11:06 drewc: This is interesting, actually, because for a number of years now, when I have had a method that when I have had a "fight' with a colleague, I just go into his/her office and appologize (even if I am right and he/she is wrong). It works like a charm. 20:11:28 jsnell: Nah, there is no context. It's just about the past few times we have met. 20:13:10 feelings not hurt, didn't think that disagreeing on either facts or matters of taste meant I was picking on you 20:13:50 drewc: Going back a bit, what did you learn about sustainability that prompted you to start eating meat? 20:14:19 Vegan Myth by Lierre Keith perhaps? 20:14:20 nyef: not meat specifically, but fish, and soon, chicken 20:14:50 (also, http://paleonu.com/get-started ) 20:14:56 nyef: i learned that 80% of the west coast herring catch is ground up and used to fertilize our vast fields of corn and wheat 20:15:07 Ah. 20:15:16 nyef: and them i started thinking about fertilizer 20:15:26 and of course food miles 20:15:28 HET2 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:15:38 and then it is used to feed cattle? 20:15:46 stassats`: and vegans 20:15:55 drewc, I like the way you reason! 20:15:58 jsnell: Good to know! 20:16:07 and cattle is used to feed non-vegans 20:16:19 stassats`: some, yes. 20:16:20 stassats`, and vegans are used to feed non-vegans? tastes like chicken! 20:16:21 *stassats`* wonders, who eats vegans and non-vegans 20:16:27 stassats`: fish 20:16:35 interesting how this discussion is moving in soylent green circles. 20:16:43 -!- mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 20:16:59 *drewc* lost a friend to the fishes last week... he is likely crawdad food that this point :( 20:17:08 jsnell: We'll discuss this over a beer or a glass of wine (on me of course) next time we meet. 20:17:34 tic: "Drink whole cream"? WTF? 20:17:40 drewc: and thus the cycle is complete 20:17:51 drewc: I don't parse it! Did someone die? 20:18:03 nyef, read the rest. :-) (but yeah, if you have high energy needs.) 20:18:12 my two cents in this whole offtopic debate: we've long surpassed any reasonable definition of carrying capacity. 20:18:15 beach: yeah, likely fell off my dock... we were the last people to see him. 20:18:21 the first few points are the most interesting, e.g. avoid stuff your grandmother did not eat. 20:18:26 s/e.g./i.e. 20:18:28 from now on, it's farming all the way, or major population crashea 20:18:30 crashes 20:18:35 drewc: Wow! Sorry to hear that! 20:18:52 Hrm... Yeah, step 2 is drink cream, step 12 is don't drink cream. Lovely. 20:19:12 well, what's wrong with cream? 20:19:17 beach: it happens :(. if you live on the water, you'll lose someone you know. 20:19:37 anyway, it's supposed to give you a whole picture. 20:19:40 cream is wikked-good for you 20:19:49 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-141-62.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:19:50 if you can handle the lactose 20:19:52 so is coconut milk. yummie. 20:19:53 drewc: I'm sorry, my brother lost a friend the same way :\ 20:20:01 Shaftoe: Yeah, it's strange, when we eat meat, we would prefer farmed meat, but when it comes to fish, we take great pride in fish being "hunted". 20:20:07 drewc, I'm lucky - here in Sweden, we have 98% lactose compability! 20:20:32 beach: farmed fish is bad, as is factory farmed meat. 20:20:39 ikki [~ikki@189.139.220.129] has joined #lisp 20:20:46 we input a lot more energy and nutrients into these things than we extract 20:20:50 beach: it's tricky, all of it. But honeslty, I don't think farming in general can be considered good. 20:20:50 drewc: You "live on the water"? What does it mean? 20:20:51 that is not sustainable. 20:20:55 *stassats`* goes to hunt some milk on the kitchen 20:20:57 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:21:01 they get sick from being fed corn. poor cattle. 20:21:04 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:21:04 beach: i live on a sailboat on the Fraser River 20:21:06 drewc: well, new style farming, yes. Old style farming, no 20:21:20 Shaftoe: I can agree with that, but then there are too many humans to do otherwise. 20:21:37 Shaftoe: simple subsistence farming is not possible given our current population 20:21:46 incidentally, for those interested in sustainability, I highly recommend "Sustainable Energy: Without the Hot Air" 20:21:54 Shaftoe: what we need is permaculture, really. 20:21:55 by D.J.C. MacKay 20:21:56 *pix4* has good luck! he sells ecologically produced fair-trade food all day while coding! I'm not joking. :) 20:22:03 drewc: That sounds exciting, though I have absolutely no idea about the implications of that. 20:22:16 really, farming is just a label on the spectrum of intensity of resource extraction. drewc: that's my point exactly: we've overpopulated to the point that not only is game hunting completely out of the question, we're reaching the point where traditional farming is out of the question too 20:22:33 Krystof, thanks for the tip! 20:22:39 nortth america, has far surpassed that point. 20:22:52 Permaculture -is- traditional, just not a western tradition. 20:22:53 Shaftoe: disagree. if we turned our farmlands into permacultured ecosystems, there would be _plenty_ game 20:23:14 North America is fairly underpopulated, compared to much of Eurasia. 20:23:22 not unless there's a drastic modification of spending habits. 20:23:22 Shaftoe: hell, here in BC i eat lots of wild game that i hunt legally within city limits 20:23:27 spending = consumption 20:23:32 *beach* is interested in this OT discussion 20:23:41 -!- antonis-froska [~adonis@ppp-94-65-186-9.home.otenet.gr] has left #lisp 20:23:59 drewc: as you said yourself though, corn is in everything from dog food to ketchup... 20:24:02 it's everywhere. 20:24:04 franki^: good point, but not fatal to the concepts involved in high-density urban permaculture. 20:24:13 it's like corn has been made into the catalyst of the existence of food. 20:24:30 Shaftoe, seen "Food, Inc" and/or "King Corn"? 20:24:32 drewc: I think you might be one of the lucky ones. I can't see that happening in Vietnam, Thailand, or China. 20:24:35 Shaftoe, at least in the US; not around here. 20:24:39 it's funny actually, because unproccessed corn is so useless as human food 20:25:04 yeah, corn is just an extension of petro-chem industry, really. 20:25:07 tic: where you at? 20:25:08 beach: they have lizards, insects and birds too.. non? 20:25:52 beach: what does a peasant vietnamese eat for protein? mostly fish, non? 20:26:22 fishing _can_ be a sustainable practice, an 2/3 of the earth is fish habitat 20:26:29 drewc: protein can come from an all vegetable diet. 20:26:35 drewc: or soy beans / tofu 20:26:40 Shaftoe, Sweden, the country-that-is-not-Switzerland in Scandinavia. 20:26:46 brown rice has a lot in fullfilling a full spectrum essential amino acids 20:26:50 Shaftoe: scroll up to where i said i was a vegetarian for 10 years ;) 20:26:55 soy doesn't contain all amino acids! 20:27:00 oudeis [~oudeis@109.253.9.178] has joined #lisp 20:27:09 drewc, lacto-ovo, I presume? or you'd be very sick now from B12 deficiency. 20:27:11 tic: he said protein... 20:27:15 He eats his toe jam. 20:27:18 oops 20:27:23 drewc: I'm sure they do. I am not going to argue with you, because you seem very well informed. My native country is Sweden (where 'tic' is from) and most people north of Skåne have a freezer full of game meat) so I know that it is sustainable there. But I am not sure it is on a global scale. 20:27:28 drewc: ah. In any case my point was the poorest get by without any protein from animals. 20:27:28 tic: indeed... _very_ lacto 20:27:42 drewc, :-D Well, then I'm also vegetarian. I very rarely eat meat. 20:27:43 _rata_ [~bea182e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-djtcdyhowmubuvrl] has joined #lisp 20:28:01 beach: nor is veganism... eat food, not too much, mostly plants. 20:28:02 <_rata_> hello 20:28:04 I do eat a lot of cheese, though. a few kilos a week. 20:28:09 tic: soy does contain amino acids. just not all essentials. 20:28:22 Shaftoe: do does dirt 20:28:23 Shaftoe, yes, that's exactly what I said. 20:28:25 hello _rata_ 20:28:26 so does* 20:28:47 tic: my bad. I misread 20:28:52 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:28:57 drewc: I am willing to believe you. 20:29:25 drewc, fish and coconuts, then? 20:29:27 drewc: I am impressed, because I ignored this deep conviction of yours. Good luck to you! 20:29:48 <_rata_> I can't believe it... off-topic talking :) 20:29:48 beach: for example, last night i had wild nettles in my supper... nettles grow all over the world ,are an incredible food source, can be used for rope and cloth... yet nobody uses them! 20:30:13 just don't go full Ted Nugent please :) 20:30:20 beach: if instead of a corn farm we had rabbits and nettles, we'd be ecologically sound and have more than enough rabbit and nettles to survive on :) 20:30:26 tsuru``: i do bow hunt 20:30:27 _rata_: It happens, but it is tolerated only between regular contributors. 20:30:35 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:37 *stassats`* wouldn't want to eat something from within city limits because of the air pollution, etc. 20:30:52 just as a devil's advocate though: the problem with *many* (not all) alternative foods are that they don't scale well to industrial levels. This is why corn is such a hot commodity. It's easily mass produced. 20:30:52 drewc: Many Swedes use them. 20:31:00 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 20:31:02 drewc: nice... but still not the full Nugent :P 20:31:09 beach: smart folk those swedes :) 20:31:10 <_rata_> I can see... status-like thing 20:31:11 beach, which do we use? 20:31:26 tic: nässlor 20:31:31 Shaftoe: we don't use that much corn in Finland 20:31:43 i imagine it's an american thing 20:31:46 it is. 20:31:47 nettle juice makes an excellent vegetarian rennet 20:31:50 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:52 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:32:01 tic: "nässelsoppa" Delicious! 20:32:15 but they're trying to export it. and by "they" it should be understood that I don't mean it's a conspiracy. It' sjust an industry and industry has a habit of spreading. 20:32:26 India, for example, is actively resisting the "infestation" 20:32:29 beach, oh, yummie. I need to make nettle soup some time! I've started eating a lot of spinach lately, would be interesting to make my spinach stew w/ nettle instead. 20:32:31 so is Brazil 20:32:47 tic: so good! there is something about the nettles that are really energizing 20:33:04 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:14 tic: the first time i had nettles to eat, i thought maybe i had too many, as i was literally high. 20:33:29 my oh my. all this off topic conversation... drewc: I'm building my boat right now and my best buddy lives in the PNW as well. Maybe one day I'll stop by 20:33:31 Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.66.100] has joined #lisp 20:33:41 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:33:49 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:33:50 tic: Swedes are lucky because they live in a sparsely poplulated place (which is rare). I think we need to find solutions for others as well. 20:33:50 Shaftoe: i'll keep a beer in the cooler for ya :) 20:33:56 drewc, really? hah. well, all the better! 20:34:05 beach, sure, just ship 'em up to Norrland. 20:34:24 drewc: hah. better keep something that'll age well under that cooler. like whisky or wine ;) 20:34:27 and the lisp/sailing continuum expands. 20:34:28 tic: You city boy you! 20:34:47 Fade: interesting, I didn't know there was such a thing 20:34:56 there is :) 20:35:00 *guaqua* is a sailor too 20:35:06 all I can say is "YESSSSSSS!" 20:35:09 =) 20:35:19 guaqua: where from? 20:35:23 Finland :) 20:35:24 beer is also a nice topic ... *pop!* cheers! 20:35:29 nice. 20:35:45 if you ever venture into Helsinki :) 20:35:54 beach, yessir! 20:35:55 *stassats`* sails on Earth vastness of the Universe 20:36:16 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-170-52.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:37:09 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:15 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:26 I always thought it was because new england was the lisp cradle, but all the lisp sailors I know are european or canadian. 20:39:13 Sumpen3026 [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:39:30 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:39:51 Fade: maybe they're not paid well enough in the U.S.? 20:40:04 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:40:36 -!- Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.66.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:40:45 Fade: (yeah, I'm cdn too) 20:40:50 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.94.1] 20:41:55 -!- LeoDioxide [~bob@c-68-59-10-186.hsd1.sc.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:42:39 Shaftoe: whisk(e)y it is! 20:42:50 there is only whiskey. 20:43:04 I spell bad =) 20:43:18 *drewc* drinks whisky if it's single malt scotch 20:43:36 is it always better than a mixed? 20:43:37 besides that, whiskey all the way. 20:43:47 'better' no... purer yes 20:43:54 well, by definition. 20:44:02 I can only take beer or wine once in a while. hard stuff makes me barf. 20:44:05 if it's whisky, sometimes mixing improves it. 20:44:27 mix it with beer! 20:44:30 jesus. is this annual OT day? 20:44:46 It's international almosst day 20:45:02 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:45:08 mishoo [~mishoo@host54-105-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:45:32 was pie day yesterday, might as well celebrate by being OT today. 20:45:40 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@host54-105-dynamic.51-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 20:46:23 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066164.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 20:46:46 no-one programs in lisp any more, they just hang around here, conversing 20:46:51 *Krystof* <- case in point 20:47:25 P(1)... 20:47:31 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 20:47:42 hello 20:48:02 hey fe[nl]ix 20:48:07 hi beach 20:48:08 <_rata_> hello fe[nl]ix 20:48:13 Krystof: any thoughts on the signing? 20:48:30 Krystof: Not true. I am writing a major information system for my department, all in Lisp. 20:48:34 Krystof: good one. 20:49:04 beach: yeah, and I wrote a preprints management system in Lisp 20:49:11 prxq: no 20:49:22 do whatever seems sensible and see if anyone complains 20:49:23 closer to the topic: has anyone managed to sell lisp to a "distant" client? i.e. one who's been referred to you and doesn't know you personally? 20:50:09 Shaftoe: The secret is to avoid mentioning the programmin language. 20:50:19 Krystof: ok 20:50:25 beach: heh. that's tricky though. =) 20:50:29 especially for support. 20:50:55 I feel reluctant to propose it to anyone who I won't be able to offer support to for at least 5 years down the road. i.e. most people 20:51:11 Shaftoe: write that wrapper to the lisp server in php ... "what's your problem? it has php in it?" harrharr 20:51:19 =) 20:51:30 Shaftoe: Then don't. 20:51:34 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@whgeh0250.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:51:46 I've been lucky to have the same core clients (about 5) for the past decade. they just keep on coming back because they like my ethic. 20:51:59 they're like a gold mine. Pay on time, don't ask questions, don't second-guess me. 20:52:07 I've started moving one of them over to lisp 20:52:13 the rest, I Can't dare yet. 20:52:25 beach: so you guys work in what kind of envs? 20:52:35 i2mbot [~i2mbot@122.172.20.131] has joined #lisp 20:52:52 sdqali [~sdqali@122.172.20.131] has joined #lisp 20:52:55 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 20:53:10 Shaftoe: Me? I am a university professor. I teach courses where we use Lisp to illustrate major concepts of programming. 20:53:16 Shaftoe: tech.coop offers lisp support and development services to organisations who've lost their primary lisp developer, FWIW. 20:53:21 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:38 -!- i2mbot [~i2mbot@122.172.20.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:42 Shaftoe: many developers have come to us because their client wants 'hit-by-a-bus' insurance before commiting to CL 20:53:45 drewc: that's good to know. tech.coop is you guys, irhgt? 20:53:47 -!- sdqali [~sdqali@122.172.20.131] has left #lisp 20:53:49 yabul 20:54:13 drewc: and what do they do when they are with you? 20:54:33 I mean, you aren't an insurance company, right? :-) 20:54:44 that's good to know. 20:54:55 -!- stipet` [~user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:55:14 prxq: some of our members are! :) 20:56:26 drewc: how does that usually work? couldn't the client compare prices and go with you guys to start with, or something? 20:57:05 felideon: maintenance is a very different beast from initial development (: 20:57:08 felideon: people don't usually hire developers because they are the cheapest ;) 20:57:16 felideon: I find that the "comparing price" kind of client generally is using the wrong metric. 20:57:35 (hah. three strikes, and felideon is out ;) ) 20:57:45 hell, fully half my clients know that they could be getting my time cheaper through the co-op yet choose to pay me more directly. 20:58:15 what sectors are your clients in, in general? 20:59:19 antifuchs, Shaftoe: true :) 20:59:24 drewc: interesting indeed 20:59:45 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 20:59:51 felideon: the clients who pay me double what they could be know that they'll get more for the buck. 20:59:57 drewc: that way they get your undivided attention, right (: 21:00:01 my biggest problem of late with clients has been my bandwidth. 21:00:58 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@88-196-191-71-dsl.trt.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 21:01:18 antifuchs: exactly 21:02:33 hah. Jokes on those clients today, it seems. 21:02:43 s/Jokes/Joke's/ 21:02:44 oioioi. COS. MOP in C. Man... 21:03:23 prxq: i have a mop-in-c lying around somewhere too... CLOS is well designed enough that it can be ported to other systems :) 21:03:30 i have a mop-in-js as well 21:04:56 drewc: and how much like having a trepanation is the experience of using it? 21:05:09 now i see why it's called "closette", that's where you keep a mop 21:05:53 I saw CLOS in C today. "C Object System", quite interesting. 21:06:08 i2mbot [~i2mbot@122.172.20.131] has joined #lisp 21:06:08 prxq: not so bad really.... not any worse than doing mop-level work in Lisp, only your working at the base level 21:06:23 sdqali [~sdqali@122.172.20.131] has joined #lisp 21:06:24 stassats`: hahaha 21:07:48 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:08:15 -!- i2mbot [~i2mbot@122.172.20.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:00 bipt` [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:47 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:12:12 interesting how the fury of beaf and corn has tacitly just vanished into mop on C 21:12:28 -!- sdqali [~sdqali@122.172.20.131] has left #lisp 21:13:59 ernest hemingway once said or wrote "happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know". he should have met the lisp community ;) 21:14:11 why? 21:14:29 doesn't seem to be too unhappy 21:14:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:14:59 hah. speak for yourself. 21:15:00 pix4, here you go: "The Bipolar Lisp Programmer" -> http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm 21:15:03 I'm content. not really happy though 21:15:21 being happy in this day and age is difficult. 21:16:07 tic: *bookmark* I'm heading for the pub... 21:16:50 cheers! 21:16:59 anyone here aware of the nanonote? 21:17:02 pix4: enjoy! 21:17:08 prxq, yeah. 21:17:20 prxq, don't see the use of it. 21:17:35 Shaftoe: maybe you should be lucky anyway. "a man without talent or ambition is most easily pleased. others set his path and he is content." so... if you can be content anyway... 21:18:06 pix4, you know, I would very much /not/ mind having my path set by others, as opposed to making decisions all day long. 21:18:24 tic: with emacs and org it'd be quite a pda 21:19:00 drewc: tnx! 21:19:00 pix4: yeah, I'm content and very much appreciate that. so I do consider myself lucky. IT's just that I fully abide by that hemingway quote 21:19:00 prxq, maybe. the Pandora has more omph though, if you're looking for something in that size. 21:19:23 Shaftoe: he committed suicide anyway... 21:19:26 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:19:34 =) I ain't going there. 21:20:05 mm cognitive dissonance 21:20:59 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:50 -!- pix4 [~pixel@dslb-092-073-166-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: listen to your doctor: stay in the pink with ciggies and drink! ;)] 21:22:58 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@88-196-191-71-dsl.trt.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 21:23:53 anyone use aquamacs /osx here? 21:24:23 I used it for a long time. 21:26:14 Fade: did you get the weird thing where when you hit C-c C-c, warnings and/or errors take a looong time to parse? 21:26:26 (I'm talking 20 seconds +) 21:26:34 what lisp? 21:26:40 sbcl over network 21:26:52 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:58 I experienced that with sbcl, but if you're using tramp, you're gonna have to live with it. 21:27:03 is it a good network? 21:27:08 yeah. it is. 21:27:18 it's a tramp interaction 21:27:21 it's lightning quick when the compilation is clean 21:27:32 tramp? really, why? 21:28:03 (does it try to save or something foolish like that?) 21:28:05 I never went further debugging it than cutting tramp out of the chain and watching the issue decrease. 21:28:12 I see. 21:28:40 heh. well, I'm taking a similar route and insuring that my functions have no warnings in them. sometimes it's not possible though, and that annoys me 21:28:43 you could try setting a location on the local maachine for all the emacs ~ backups, but it's unclear to me that tramp obeys. 21:28:47 Shaftoe: can you do some profiling? M-x elp-instrument-package RET slime RET ... do something offending performance and then paste M-x elp-results 21:29:12 i ran into that sometimes with sbcl on ppc/osx locally. 21:29:34 i switched to ccl eventually for all my ppc needs, and the issue disappeared. 21:30:16 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 21:31:04 Shaftoe pasted "slime-sbcl profiling" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96439 21:31:59 hold on. I'll instrument one with and one without 21:32:15 that's enough 21:32:47 can you annotate with *slime-events*? 21:33:02 stassats`: what you mean? 21:33:13 *slime-events* is the name of a buffer 21:33:24 tramp obeys the backup stuff 21:33:29 Shaftoe: I seem to remember that putting (setq font-lock-verbose nil) into the .emacs file fixed that long delay. 21:33:33 yup. hold on 21:33:38 i have ~/backup on every host i remotely edit files :) 21:35:15 jdz: so if you set a local backup directory for emacs ~ files, does the backup include the tramp path? 21:35:26 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.12.82] has quit [] 21:35:28 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:34 tic: (re. bipolar) hadn't read that 21:36:13 Shaftoe annotated #96439 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96439#1 21:36:42 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:37:16 stassats`: fyi, it's not from the same run 21:37:18 prxq, it's a good read. and Mark is a nice guy. (sent him an e-mail about it) 21:37:36 Shaftoe: but is it slow too? 21:37:37 tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:41 yes, it is. 21:37:43 Fade: no, the backups are stored remotely 21:37:57 ok, i'll see what i can figure out 21:38:05 Fade: that's actually how i have configured it. i'm pretty sure it's possible to have backups locally, too. 21:38:08 it's the remote backscatter that's part of the problem /w tramp, I think. 21:38:14 the thing is, I'm not sure it's actually slime/swank. The ui just "hangs" when it displays "Highlighting notes..." 21:38:26 that freeze can be 5 to 50 seconds or more 21:38:45 I can post a video or something, if you want to see it. 21:38:45 is it with aquamacs only? 21:38:57 as opposed to? 21:39:04 and did you try what rme suggested? 21:39:05 i've seen it with gnuemacs as well as aquamacs 21:39:09 Shaftoe: vanilla emacs 21:39:18 I will try rme's suggestion now. 21:39:19 rme's suggestion sounds like it might be spot on. 21:39:42 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.253.9.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:41:14 -!- rodt [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:41:29 i guess i see the problem 21:41:41 rodt [~rodney@80-45-96-105.static.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:42 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 21:41:43 sigh. 21:41:50 I got excited there 21:42:02 it's slightly better. 21:42:32 stassats`: what's your guess? 21:42:35 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:12 (fyi: it feels more responsive, but that might be placebo - it definitely hasn't fixed the issue) 21:43:35 one of the compilation results producing functions calls file-truename 21:43:46 i guess it's slow on tramp 21:44:02 -!- prxq [~mommer@g227079099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:44:06 that would definitely do it. 21:44:49 one day, when I'm not overloaded, I'll have to look at that and see if I can do something about it. 21:44:53 does file-truename stat the file? 21:44:55 can you tell me where it is? 21:45:06 Shaftoe: don't worry, i'll look at it myself 21:45:36 stassats`: oh my. I'll owe you an aged whisk*e*y ;) 21:46:30 i'm a slime bug-fixer, so this is a usual thing 21:47:03 ah well then. If you don't want my whiskey, I'll gladly drink it =) 21:47:08 in any case though, thanks. 21:48:57 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:50:12 Adamant_ [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:54:49 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:55:50 qazibasit [~xxx@116.71.16.28] has joined #lisp 21:56:24 marioxcc [~user@200.56.149.233] has joined #lisp 21:56:27 hi 21:56:33 how is everybody? 21:56:41 i want to know about lisp 21:56:42 nicdev_ [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 21:56:43 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:56:46 nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has joined #lisp 21:56:48 ok 21:56:59 minion: tell qazibasit about PCL 21:57:00 qazibasit: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:57:17 thanks minion 21:58:00 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:58:17 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:58:32 tom1 [~pierre@212.99.78.123] has joined #lisp 21:58:34 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-143-127.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:37 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 21:58:51 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:59:03 adios muchachos 21:59:05 -!- Shaftoe [~Moe111@bas1-montreal02-1096724744.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Shaftoe] 21:59:10 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A03F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:00:45 sellout [~greg@dhcp-18-111-10-10.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 22:00:54 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:03:36 minion u there? 22:04:05 minion is a bot 22:04:08 i think you are trying to talk to a bot 22:04:47 minion: are you a bot? 22:04:47 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 22:05:32 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:05:58 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:08:29 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:17 minion: are you a bot? 22:09:17 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 22:09:23 original. 22:09:24 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:09:55 nicdev_ [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 22:13:38 -!- nicdev_ [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:49 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755acb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:56 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:14:05 nicdev [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 22:14:08 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 22:14:27 original ??? 22:14:37 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f666872-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 22:14:38 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:14:48 so why is no body speaking in the room 22:15:02 why left the bots 22:15:23 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:43 <_3b> qazibasit: because nobody has anything to say about lisp at the moment, and we prefer silence to off-topic talk 22:16:20 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:51 nicdev [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 22:18:22 kwinz3_ [~kwinz@chello080109070118.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:18:38 anybody else can reproduce behavior described by Shaftoe? 22:19:01 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066164.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:20:06 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@32.170.97.189] has joined #lisp 22:20:11 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:11 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:20:26 ok if its abt lisp, i didnt feel like its really up to the mark for AI 22:20:42 nicdev [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 22:20:55 though its the first language designed for AI 22:22:58 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-234-175.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:34 shhh... people are working! 22:24:19 -!- sellout [~greg@dhcp-18-111-10-10.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: sellout] 22:25:49 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@st401-249.subnet-246.amherst.edu] has quit [Quit: nicdev] 22:26:42 -!- Adamant_ [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:27:34 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-83-2.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:28:28 fatelang [~user@24-217-110-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:04 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:31:16 nicdev [~nicdev@st401-108.subnet-249.amherst.edu] has joined #lisp 22:31:42 Are slime and ecl supposed to work together? 22:31:50 yes 22:32:23 Hmm, guess I'll try updating both and see if that fixes my problem. 22:32:25 Recent versions, I believe. 22:32:34 -!- felideon [~user@12.228.15.162] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:32:50 you need both from cvs/git 22:33:38 -!- postamar [~postamar@206-248-165-139.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:33:51 the answer to that question being 'yes' is a relatively recent phenomenon :) 22:34:23 hrnm... i broke planet lisp? 22:34:44 is it in the middle of an update maybe? 22:34:51 Looks fine to me. 22:35:27 i think i caught it with its pants down :) 22:36:23 Ralith [~ralith@69.90.48.97] has joined #lisp 22:36:58 -!- Sumpen3026 [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:37:02 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.13] has joined #lisp 22:37:12 my dad used lisp first time on his commodore 64 in 1985 but atleast in this era i wont recommend it, it has compitability issues. 22:37:13 postamar [~postamar@206-248-165-139.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:46 it's incompatible with weaker minds 22:37:50 how to compile my program for apple or solaris 22:37:53 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 22:37:58 ? 22:38:22 kick qazibasit gavino filter triggered 22:38:25 opps 22:38:29 err 22:38:35 *drewc* is missing the / 22:38:36 i didnt find the compiler for solaris 22:38:40 i need help 22:38:49 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has been kicked from #lisp 22:39:00 qazibasit [~xxx@116.71.16.28] has joined #lisp 22:39:07 sorry folks 22:39:47 qazibasit: start making sense please 22:40:30 -!- gozek [~quassel@87.216.165.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:34 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e44a62a.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:41:28 qazibasit: perhaps www.cliki.net will provide you with enough information that you can ask better questions? 22:42:20 <_rata_> drewc: what's the gavino filter? 22:42:50 _rata_: search the c.l.l archives for 'gavino', or the #lisp logs 22:45:01 <_rata_> minion: logs 22:45:01 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 22:45:08 anair_84 [~anair_84@wsip-72-215-168-118.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:19 -!- synthasee [~synthase@adsl-146-212-203.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 22:47:10 -!- benny [~benny@i577A880C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:48:00 jcowan [~jcowan@nat/google/x-jdxldretzulhporw] has joined #lisp 22:50:29 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.75.121] has joined #lisp 22:51:16 mejja [~user@c-68b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:51:31 <_rata_> ok, thanks drewc, answer found 22:52:48 -!- ryepup1 [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 22:54:32 benny [~benny@i577A70B0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:54:47 -!- schoppenhauer [~css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:59 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f666872-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 22:55:10 synthasee [~synthase@adsl-146-212-203.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:39 -!- enthymene is now known as enthymeme 22:57:57 -!- kwinz3_ [~kwinz@chello080109070118.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:04:49 -!- qamikaz [~alper@85.100.241.8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06:05 -!- jdz [~jdz@81.198.241.173] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:43 -!- saikat [~saikat@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: saikat] 23:17:13 alimon [~alimon@189.160.66.182] has joined #lisp 23:17:27 -!- alimon [~alimon@189.160.66.182] has left #lisp 23:18:20 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.37] has joined #lisp 23:20:13 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.10] has quit [Quit: brb] 23:20:49 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@ppp-71-139-8-94.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:21:25 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:21:50 austinh [~austinh@c-24-21-81-46.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:56 enthymeme [~kraken@130.166.209.10] has joined #lisp 23:24:46 <_rata_> somebody knows if there will be some Lisp projects or Lisp-related mentoring institutions for GSoC 2010? 23:24:55 kwinz3_ [kwinz@212095022068.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 23:26:47 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:11 <_3b> _rata_: http://www.lispnyc.org/home.clp 23:30:28 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 23:30:44 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan_ 23:30:48 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 23:30:55 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: good night] 23:33:49 -!- slyrus__ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:34:43 mathrick pasted "macrology fail" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96442 23:34:54 okay, can someone explain what I'm doing wrong? 23:35:02 <_rata_> thank you _3b 23:35:02 I think I've confused myself beyond hope by now 23:35:09 what's slet? 23:35:35 <_3b> mathrick: 'what you are doing wrong' = writing confusing macros? 23:35:35 nothing besides a macro, it's a dummy representation of the actual mind-bending macro I'm trying to work 23:35:44 _3b: not by choice! 23:35:47 locci [~nes@93.37.208.255] has joined #lisp 23:35:53 it's all because CFFI has no functional interface 23:36:19 <_3b> do % and slet need to be macros? 23:36:24 I don't know 23:36:27 lemme explain 23:36:42 mathrick: apparently you think % should get expanded first? 23:36:44 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.208.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:37:09 slet is "sexpifying let", which is a let automatically wrapping each binding in an if resulting either in its value, or the sexp that evaluated to it 23:37:26 <_3b> does macrolet have scope like labels or like flet? 23:37:29 that's because I need to expand to code that can work either at runtime or compile time 23:37:39 _3b: I believe LABELS 23:38:04 <_3b> actually, i guess that shouldn't matter here 23:38:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:38:13 and % is my attempt at writing, well, a comma that isn't actually a comma and doesn't need to be placed inside a backquote 23:38:24 lemme update that into something more similar to what I really want to achieve 23:38:42 or well, I'll just paste my attempt at the real thing 23:38:58 <_3b> yeah, real code might help 23:39:40 mathrick annotated #96442 "Real thing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/96442#1 23:39:47 mathrick: slet gets expanded first, and so (% 10) is in the returned structure.. 23:39:59 adeht: lemme parse what you said 23:40:26 adeht: yeah, that's what I want I think 23:40:40 mathrick: think, how would the compiler know anything about (% 10) ?.. it first needs to expand the slet form 23:41:26 adeht: but slet should just expand to literal (% 10) which then gets expanded with the macrolet definition, no? 23:41:29 oh, hmm 23:41:34 mathrick: and slet form expands to `(let ((bar (% 10))) (list bar)) , which has nothing to do with your % macro 23:41:39 <_3b> clhs macrolet 23:41:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 23:42:38 "but the consequences are undefined if the local macro definitions reference any local variable or function bindings that are visible in that lexical environment." 23:42:40 fatius [~user@cpe-66-65-63-124.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:40 bah 23:42:46 mathrick: that's not the case here 23:43:09 adeht: so why doesn't the % in the expansion have anything to do with my % macro? 23:43:23 it doesn't complain about that 23:43:29 here it's much simpler: you're doing something akin to (macrolet ((foo (...) ...)) '(foo 123)) and expecting macroexpansion 23:43:32 try (let ((param t)) (macrolet ((% () param)) (%))) 23:43:34 it complains about PARAM and/or SEXPP being unbound 23:44:06 -!- fatius [~user@cpe-66-65-63-124.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:33 stassats`: I understand that, and it's not what adeht said 23:44:41 -!- HET2 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:44:57 but I can see I'm in error now, because I refer to the enclosing lexical scope, which is invoking undefined behaviour 23:45:07 not that it helps me :( 23:45:39 -!- nicdev [~nicdev@st401-108.subnet-249.amherst.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:50 I wonder if I can replace that with a FLET and ,(% ...) 23:46:22 no, because it'll be outside of any backquotes, which is how I got here in the first place 23:46:24 <_3b> why do you need to do that stuff withj macros though? why not just bind a sexp version of the param in LET and use that instead of the arg? 23:46:24 ARGH 23:46:30 maybe you actually want (macrolet ((slet ... `(macrolet ((% ...)) (let ,bindings ,@body)))) (slet ...)) 23:46:55 _3b: because I need that to be usable at compile time as well as runtime 23:47:05 adeht: that's what I started with 23:47:07 mathrick: I think it will be easier to you to write it as a function 23:47:16 <_3b> or just write a (set of) functions that take the forms and build the correct expansion 23:47:16 mathrick: that you should get to expand to what you want 23:47:21 -!- qazibasit [~xxx@116.71.16.28] has quit [] 23:47:33 mathrick: and then call it from a macro function 23:47:36 <_3b> mathrick: let in the macro, not in the expansion 23:47:44 adeht: yes, but I still don't see how I can get the selective unquoting behaviour 23:48:02 adeht: but what's the difference? 23:48:11 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:48:21 _3b: I don't think I see what you mean 23:48:57 actually, lemme explain why I need it to be dual 23:49:08 stassats`: it's easier to repeatedly expand and split into several functions 23:49:23 I have two basic use cases for that macro 23:49:42 stassats`: at least I find it easier :) 23:50:14 one is (call-gmethod widget-show gtk-widget ...) 23:51:02 in this case I need to lookup the gtk-widget definitions in a hashtable and generate appropriate offsets to call things with CFFI 23:51:33 the other is (call-gmethod widget-show (parent gtk-some-widget-subclass) ...) 23:52:09 and in this case, it needs to treat (parent gtk-some-widget-subclass) as a sexp to be pasted verbatim 23:52:49 it's all because all CFFI FOREIGN-FUNCALL-* forms are macros, so I can't just pass anything to them 23:52:56 maybe I should've just used eval... 23:53:00 <_3b> what happens if you (call-gmethod arg-passed-to-calling-function *some-global*) or whatever? 23:53:48 it'll treat *SOME-GLOBAL* as the type name and will try to look it up 23:54:07 but you can work around it with (symbol-value '*some-global*) 23:54:42 it's hideous and horrible, but I really need to get it to work first and then think about making it pretty 23:55:03 <_3b> ok, write 2 functions, one gets a method name, type name, safe-p flag, and list of args, other gets same but with a cons for typename 23:55:34 <_3b> actually, scratch that... just write a functional interface and call that fom the macro :p 23:55:39 -!- kwinz3_ [kwinz@212095022068.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:55:45 could you elaborate? 23:55:51 upward [~upward@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:55:55 I can't write a functional interface, that's the point 23:55:59 CFFI forms are macros 23:56:11 so I can't just pass different things at runtime 23:56:15 <_3b> which ones in particular? 23:56:24 FOREIGN-FUNCALL-POINTER 23:56:40 <_3b> ah, i guess i sort of see 23:56:42 What's the status of UCW ? 23:56:49 _3b: I wouldn't be doing anything this ugly if I could just have a function :) 23:56:56 upward: single 23:57:00 heh 23:57:01 <_3b> ok, back to first way, write a function that generates the code 23:57:09 <_3b> for each case 23:57:22 _3b: right, but could you elaborate? I wanted to avoid duplicating the code 23:57:22 <_3b> then call those from the macro 23:57:32 stassats`: so it's abandonned ? 23:57:33 <_3b> make it work, then factor out the common bits :) 23:57:45 <_3b> upward: it is still developed 23:57:46 upward: no, maintained. drewc here is the ucw-core maintainer 23:58:02 there are a number of different frontends built on ucw-core 23:58:12 NNshag [user@lns-bzn-24-82-64-156-113.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:17 or forked at different point and slowly converging to ucw-core 23:58:20 *points 23:58:46 mathrick: which one is the most popular ? 23:59:09 _3b: bah, if my thinking is correct, they'll be pretty much identical, but not factorable 23:59:21 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:59:24 <_3b> mathrick: i suspect you can factor them 23:59:54 upward: I dunno, it's too confusing for me, I don't actually use UCW. You can't go wrong with asking drewc, though, assuming he's awake 23:59:56 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp