00:02:32 -!- danly [~danleslie@S010600259c4d3771.vs.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: danly] 00:03:04 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 00:03:24 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host217-42-29-79.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:04:10 -!- davazp [~user@83.46.0.116] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:18 danly [~danleslie@S010600259c4d3771.vs.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:30 bizarrefish [~lee@host217-42-29-79.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:12 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:45 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:17 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 00:12:20 Anyone know how to turn off the slime connection mode info that shows up at the top from .emacs? 00:12:54 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:13:08 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:03 at the top of what? 00:15:45 The repl? 00:15:57 yup 00:16:03 making screenshot 00:16:22 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:16:31 http://brennancheung.com/slime.gif 00:16:35 -!- pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:17:01 now you make me wonder how to turn that on 00:17:15 I want that! 00:17:20 :D 00:17:22 slime-banner 00:17:26 pjb [~t@160.Red-88-30-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:39 >2008-07-27 uh oh 00:17:43 that's old! 00:18:24 brennanc: you can turn it off by setting slime-header-line-p to nil 00:18:32 brennanc: first, update your slime 00:18:38 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 00:18:45 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 00:18:47 and slime-banner won't be loading by default 00:19:56 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 00:20:30 -!- rread_ [~rread@192.18.41.196] has quit [Quit: rread_] 00:25:07 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:4613:2d84:1234:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:30:11 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:48 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:39:06 -!- aoriste [~user@lnk2-themill-gw.binary.net] has left #lisp 00:39:29 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has quit [Quit: brennanc] 00:44:29 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.95.196] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:44:31 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-47-131.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:44:46 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-47-131.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 00:50:48 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1177684015.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:51:06 -!- marioxcc [~user@201.132.83.180] has quit [K-Lined] 00:52:06 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:52:38 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:47 -!- timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:59:49 danly_ [~danleslie@S010600259c4d3771.vs.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:59 -!- danly [~danleslie@S010600259c4d3771.vs.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:03:00 -!- danly_ is now known as danly 01:09:08 hi, out of curiosity, is there a function associated with , inside a backquote as there is QUOTE for ' ? 01:09:30 EVAL doesn't seem to do the trick 01:10:03 egn: this is implementation dependant. 01:10:22 Some implementations map , to unquote, and ,@ to unsplice. 01:11:39 -!- brandonedens [~brandon@wsip-70-184-10-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:11:55 sorry, what do you mean by map , to unquote? 01:12:31 -!- danly [~danleslie@S010600259c4d3771.vs.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: danly] 01:13:08 a function named "unquote" 01:13:21 `(a ,b c) --> (system:backquote (a (system:unquote b) c)) 01:13:45 stassats`: pjb: ah, okay, thanks 01:14:13 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:14:45 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@port-4285.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:15:23 -!- konr` [~user@187.88.52.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:18:41 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:23 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 01:22:03 -!- Skewb [~Skewb@83.231.81.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:22:23 -!- Sergio`_ [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:22:38 Sergio`_ [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 01:24:41 konr [~user@187.88.125.208] has joined 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[~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:18:49 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has joined #lisp 02:19:25 phnglui_ [~phnglui@cpe-76-181-155-131.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:53 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:20:23 -!- phnglui [~phnglui@cpe-76-181-155-131.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:20:31 -!- phnglui_ is now known as phnglui 02:22:06 -!- bigjust1 is now known as bigjust 02:24:59 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 02:27:17 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:27:24 necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:53 Xach: herep 02:36:09 YiShimHo [~user@125.128.101.1] has joined #lisp 02:41:31 -!- YiShimHo [~user@125.128.101.1] has left #lisp 02:44:01 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:06 -!- wgl [~wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:46:42 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:55:41 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:56:37 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-100-221.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:59:24 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:59:24 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:00:57 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-40-246.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Offline for the night.] 03:02:11 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:10 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:05:45 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 03:05:54 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 03:07:04 wgl [~wgl@c-98-227-91-74.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:30 ysph [~user@adsl-157-159-26.mgm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:51 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:12:21 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:13:26 Any screen users here? 03:13:47 i use it 03:14:06 Is there some easy way to kill a dettached screen session if you know it's name? 03:15:01 spiaggia` [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 03:15:04 -!- spiaggia [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 03:17:56 sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:49 gigamonkey: I think you want screen -ls and then screen -wipe 03:19:24 Requires them to be dead already, doesn't it? 03:19:28 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 03:19:46 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:20:24 gigamonkey: i use screen 03:20:26 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:28 i didn't think -wipe takes an extra param... just cleans up dead sessions 03:20:57 screen -dr session -X quit 03:21:29 sigh, I guess I didn't know screen as well as I thought 03:23:58 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:26:17 -!- dabd [~dabd@a85-139-97-227.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:30:47 stassats`: thanks 03:31:18 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:36:06 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-86.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:39:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:39:43 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host217-42-29-79.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:39:44 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:05 -!- Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:49:34 Xuen [~Xuen@c-76-102-54-53.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:48 Good morning! 03:50:11 Its night over here :P 03:50:21 7:50 pm 03:50:43 no, it's 6:50am! 03:50:51 -!- cognizant-cog [~jake@24.143.26.144] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:51:22 Anyway, I'm having troubles with the cl-irc package. 03:51:50 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:57 must be because your clock is wrong 03:52:09 -!- brandonedens [~brandon@pool-96-253-61-205.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:52:11 asdf-install always aborts when compiling (DEFUN READ-MESSAGE-LOOP ...) 03:52:29 get cl-irc from svn 03:52:37 ac30 [~user@adsl-99-32-197-159.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:40 minion: please tell Xuen about clbuild 03:52:41 Xuen: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 03:53:07 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 03:53:21 Oh, thank you. 03:53:37 So is there a "proper" way to install a script in init.d on debian? 03:53:42 I guess cliki's version is outdated? 03:54:13 Xuen: yes, clbuild will fetch from svn 03:55:43 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:13 crap, darcs can't install because ghc isn't supported on snowleopard :( 03:57:06 enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:57:19 nunb [~nundan@59.178.171.71] has joined #lisp 03:58:42 you could fetch it with wget 03:59:04 Can't you get a darcs binary? 03:59:31 Thats probably what I'll have to do. 04:00:33 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8457.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:00:58 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vhrsqbpnecgujrqw] has joined #lisp 04:01:02 Ah, update-rc.d was what I suspected must exist. 04:10:05 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:43 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-47-131.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:11:36 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:46 Alright folks, since you're my peeps you get the first look at the official announcement http://www.codequarterly.com 04:13:05 JonSmith [~jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:47 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:24:29 gigamonkey: very exciting. 04:24:31 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 04:27:11 Now the work begins of actually find people to write articles. 04:33:08 brandonedens [~brandon@96.238.16.104] has joined #lisp 04:35:29 Snamich [~Snamich@32.134.178.159] has joined #lisp 04:37:59 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.34] has joined #lisp 04:47:00 it's a good idea 04:48:24 -!- rjschave [~rjschave@d149-67-38-179.col.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:48:47 rjschave [~rjschave@d149-67-38-179.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 05:01:01 gigamonkey: very interesting. But 50 pages .. gaak! 05:01:11 benny [~benny@i577A836A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:01:14 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 05:05:01 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.14.89] has joined #lisp 05:12:05 nunb: yeah. it is a bit daunting. 05:12:17 We'll probably have to ramp up over time. 05:12:32 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:12:37 Eventually it'll be more like writing a small book rather than a short article. 05:12:55 But in order to get a pipeline of articles flowing, we'll probably start with some smaller pieces. 05:17:00 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:17:47 Axius [~hi@92.84.5.197] has joined #lisp 05:18:06 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:18:09 schme [~marcus@c83-254-198-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:18:09 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-198-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 05:18:09 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 05:20:02 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:08 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@64.134.146.34] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 05:20:12 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66612e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:21:05 -!- wgl [~wgl@c-98-227-91-74.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:21:34 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:21:34 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:21:55 Sergio`__ [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 05:22:25 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:22:26 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:57 revelation of the day: get-output-stream-string clears out the string-stream! 05:23:30 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:23:51 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:00 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:24:08 If it didn't, then it could be awkward. 05:24:46 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:55 I always assumed that it didn't.. after I used it I assigned a new s-o-s 05:25:19 I guess I assumed that because of the naming 05:25:28 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66612e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 05:25:41 -!- Sergio`_ [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:26:10 -!- JonSmith [~jon@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 05:27:37 Sergio`_ [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 05:28:09 also, C++'s ostringstream's str() doesn't clear out the stream (you do str("") to get that) 05:32:11 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:32:36 parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:32 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 05:37:42 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-78-128.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:24 -!- Sergio`__ [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:44:04 -!- rme [rme@clozure-DC352DBC.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:44:05 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:44:28 kwertii_ [~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 05:46:59 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:46:59 -!- kwertii_ is now known as kwertii 05:48:11 Sergio`__ [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 05:48:17 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:48:34 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:50:15 Sergio`_1 [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 05:50:47 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:42 -!- Sergio`__ [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 05:51:43 -!- Sergio`_1 [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 05:51:57 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:01:43 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:07:05 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-141-157-238-16.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:16 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:11:15 -!- Axius [~hi@92.84.5.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:11:32 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:21 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-78-128.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:17:09 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:17:18 adeht: i learned that only recently 06:17:34 adeht: now i use it as a buffer whenever it seems handy 06:18:46 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:20:08 Xach: thanks for your help today http://www.codequarterly.com/ is up and running as a buildapp app 06:21:22 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-117-44.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:04 yay 06:24:54 how did you end up inhibiting the exit of the entry function? 06:25:36 I think I just started a repl. 06:25:41 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:32 Axius [~fd@92.84.5.197] has joined #lisp 06:26:49 -!- brandonedens [~brandon@96.238.16.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:27:42 -!- parolang` [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:38 Where can I find a tutorial to use sbcl with emacs and slime? 06:35:20 use or install Axius? 06:36:42 Harag: use. 06:37:25 there is a nice you tube about slime and emacs 06:38:45 just google it 06:39:04 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e44b2e1.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:39:19 Harag: ok. 06:41:20 -!- j4k0b [~j4k0b@1503024517.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [] 06:41:57 Axius: once you find the video you will find transcripts and other discussions to take you futher 06:45:26 -!- joga [joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:45:26 -!- guaq [gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:46:03 joga [joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 06:46:04 guaq [gua@82-128-221-166-Karjasilta-TR1.suomi.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:09 adu_ [~ajr@pool-173-66-14-213.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:30 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:54:21 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WILL TROLL FOR FOOD] 06:56:49 -!- adu_ [~ajr@pool-173-66-14-213.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu_] 07:00:31 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:01:47 vng [~user@123.20.84.170] has joined #lisp 07:02:03 Good afternoon! 07:03:40 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:40 -!- Xuen [~Xuen@c-76-102-54-53.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:03:50 maus [~maus@222.253.106.117] has joined #lisp 07:04:06 Good afternoon! 07:04:51 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:05:57 hello vng, hello maus. 07:06:12 Do you have your accounts yet? 07:06:20 Nice to meet you beach! :) 07:06:37 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:06:42 beach, not yet, sir. 07:06:55 Ouch! What seems to be the problem? 07:07:00 hello beach 07:07:37 beach: we've been waiting his reply 07:08:19 beach: We received emails which were sent automatically by the system only. 07:08:41 OK, I'll see what I can do. 07:09:03 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:10:10 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:54 I keep forgetting who is a cl.net admin other than drewc. Does anyone know? 07:11:26 vng, maus: do you have any place where you can make a GIT repository available by http? 07:11:49 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:12:22 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:12:46 beach: can we use GitHub? 07:13:01 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:14:00 maus: I suppose so. I would like for you to package up everything that you have done so far (both GUI and the rest) in a GIT repository so that I can get the full picture of what is going on. 07:14:22 -!- Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:15:22 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:25 beach: yes, sir! 07:15:38 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:19 vng, maus: we also need to decide what to work on next. Perhaps we should do that by email. Any ideas? 07:16:20 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:31 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-7-86.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:17:08 vng, maus: This time I suggest something that doesn't require such complex algorithms. 07:17:09 beach: sure sir. 07:17:59 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-7-86.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:18:07 Do you know about this: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Lisp-projects/ 07:18:52 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:19:04 beach: what will we do next? 07:19:53 We should decide together. What I would *really* want is a program that can parse an arbitrary email message, but that might not be much fun to write. 07:20:04 -!- ac30 [~user@adsl-99-32-197-159.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:20:24 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:21:20 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:24 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:23:25 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:25:06 beach: maybe we will discuss via email with others? 07:25:13 Good idea. 07:25:54 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:25:58 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:26:20 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:40 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:30:58 gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 07:32:32 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:35:44 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:37:33 -!- Axius [~fd@92.84.5.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:37:53 mega1 [~quassel@pool-04278.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:38:37 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 07:40:30 beach: we are confused a little bit about packaging our codes. Is it fine if in the process of working, we package also the not-working code file? Or we should only package the good ones? Is there any rule about this? 07:43:21 nostoi [~nostoi@161.Red-79-146-53.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:35 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:44:39 finalprefix [~finalpref@122.182.0.38] has joined #lisp 07:46:37 maus: I suggest you pack everything you have done. This would give me an opportunity to see the entire thing. 07:46:52 racecondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 07:47:40 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:30 beach: yes, sir! 07:50:43 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:51:11 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 07:51:40 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:47 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 07:52:48 Are these two equivalent? (defmethod foo ((b (eql nil)))) and (defmethod foo ((b null))) ? 07:53:16 They ought to be, since the only object of class null is nil. 07:53:51 j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has joined #lisp 07:54:36 Tonijz [~tonijs@85.254.194.65] has joined #lisp 07:55:09 Zhivago: thanks. Is there any semantic value to using the first form (there are more args for the GF in question) ? 07:55:17 imho, there isn't .. 07:55:32 Not that I can think of. 07:56:01 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:56:47 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-230-66.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 07:59:12 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:00:29 -!- enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 08:00:47 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:00:55 good morning 08:01:10 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:01:16 -!- racecondition is now known as RaceCondition 08:02:16 G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 08:04:13 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:04:32 G0SUB [~ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 08:04:54 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:06:37 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-30-64.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:11:55 hello mvilleneuve 08:14:11 splittist [~3ecbaa42@gateway/web/freenode/x-faxlcxsicmpykwel] has joined #lisp 08:14:14 morning 08:16:56 hey splittist 08:17:22 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:23:58 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:24:13 good morning 08:24:25 hello kami 08:25:03 beach: thank you for the weather link the other day. I saw it much later. 08:25:34 kami: Sure, no problem. 08:29:25 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:31 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30:34 enthymene [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:00 brill [~brill@193.3.1.132] has joined #lisp 08:32:19 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:33:02 -!- brill [~brill@193.3.1.132] has quit [Client Quit] 08:36:22 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:36:34 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:55 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:13 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 08:39:24 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@161.Red-79-146-53.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:40:07 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:40:39 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:41:55 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:12 -!- ysph [~user@adsl-157-159-26.mgm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:43:23 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:37 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 08:44:40 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:46:38 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.71] has joined #lisp 08:46:43 bizarrefish [~lee@host86-168-10-197.range86-168.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:51:40 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:28 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 08:53:53 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 08:54:35 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:55:04 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:58:55 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:34 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:03:25 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:09:33 aoriste [~user@76.85.179.51] has joined #lisp 09:10:59 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66612e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 09:11:26 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66612e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 09:15:03 -!- aoriste [~user@76.85.179.51] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:15:22 tcr, do you know anything about when the program will end on saturday? 09:16:11 no idea, it's open ended 09:16:38 I wouldn't mind going to some other location in the evening 09:18:56 my gf and her friend will join us in the car, and i need to promise a return time... :) 09:19:14 i'll talk to mega, he's the driver anyway 09:19:32 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@122.182.0.38] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:19:33 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:21:30 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:09 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-215-188.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:22:47 you'll just come for saturday? How long's your drive? 09:23:28 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:23:58 2 hours 09:24:18 yes, we're planning to leave at 9am and come back not too late 09:24:43 but that mostly depends on mega... 09:24:58 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:25:27 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:25:33 So is drewc the only cl.net admin these days? 09:26:17 good morning (good as in having a look at google-ai-challenge leaderboards ;) 09:28:07 attila_lendvai: Yeah you should clarify with him. Saturday is open end, may be the case we'll go to some bar at ~9pm which may be a good opportunity to say good bye for you. 09:28:44 But no clue really :-) I would expect myself to get hungry earlier 09:29:00 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 09:29:26 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-rpjuotmhhdjkpmpo] has joined #lisp 09:29:46 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:32:37 elo score is written él score 09:33:12 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:33:21 tcr, hacking will feed your brain and the stomack can wait... :) 09:33:41 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:35:24 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:35:46 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.33] has joined #lisp 09:35:49 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-126-167.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:58 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-188-099-126-167.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 09:39:48 -!- Algid [~dash@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:40:13 Algid [~dash@c-71-237-204-74.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:13 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:41:56 Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:42:22 TR2N [email@89.180.142.81] has joined #lisp 09:49:52 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:51:03 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:53:52 finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has joined #lisp 09:54:23 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:54:24 somecodehere [~ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 09:54:45 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:54:59 Reaver2 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:59:05 -!- Reaver2 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 10:01:09 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.171.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:03:09 Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:04:28 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:06:23 nunb [~nundan@59.178.173.253] has joined #lisp 10:09:39 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-rpjuotmhhdjkpmpo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:09:42 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 10:14:43 Snamich_ [~Snamich@32.132.221.50] has joined #lisp 10:15:58 -!- xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:16:39 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@32.134.178.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:16:39 -!- Snamich_ is now known as Snamich 10:18:15 levente_meszaros: are you coming to the vienna lispmeeting too? 10:18:54 no stress, just wanted to confirm either way (: 10:19:17 KimoOta [~tom@66-189-211-193.dhcp.elbg.wa.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:19:39 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:20:59 drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:05 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:25:08 xan [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:25:56 Hey, so following on from my question the other day, this is my programming problem: I want to do a series of transformations on a matrix-like object, keeping a record of what I've done so I can undo them. 10:26:18 The transformations can be functions with varying numbers of arguments, etc 10:26:47 KimoOta: a list of closures, maybe? 10:27:21 -!- xan is now known as xan_ 10:27:31 p_l: I'm working in R, and I wanted to see what the lispers thought of my solution. I generate a list containing the names of the functions to call and the arguments, excluding the matrix itself 10:27:59 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:28:16 Each function returns the transformed matrix and a list containing the function and arguments needed for the undo transform 10:28:54 So for the whole list of tasks, I step through the list, calling the functions by name with the matrix and the rest of the arguments. It seemed kind of neat. 10:29:08 -!- enthymene [~kraken@adsl-76-242-89-178.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 10:29:37 KimoOta: fwiw, that's basically the same thing as what p_l was suggesting. 10:30:14 KimoOta: that's what I described, except instead of names, you end up with a list of functions that call the necessary transformations with apriopriate parameters 10:31:18 p_l: Is that what you mean by a closure? 10:31:30 bytecolor [~user@adsl-70-133-76-237.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:44 KimoOta: assuming you want to pass the matrix yourself, it could be something like (lambda (x) (some-matrix-transform x p1 p2 p3)) as every member of the list 10:34:30 then you could just #'apply it to a matrix 10:35:00 (in case I made a mistake, consult CLHS or PCL - I'm not to keen on theory, especially in the morning without proper sleep) 10:35:04 Yeah, the matrix could be large, so I just want to store the minimal amount of info I need for the undo-tranform. 10:35:32 Thanks though - it sounds like the lisp solution is fairly close to what I wrote 10:40:56 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 10:41:29 Q: I want to uniquefy a list, but be able to traceback the filtering. So '(a a b) -> 10:41:42 *j0be* sry not done yet 10:42:54 Q: I want to uniquefy a list, but be able to traceback the filtering. So '(:a :a :b) -> '(:a :b) and ((0 1) (2)) or '(:a (0 1) :b (2)) 10:43:30 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:36 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:43:45 I am stuck in while loops, eating the list and tracking the filtering with indexes. But I need some mapcar magic thrown in there I feel. 10:48:12 j0be: I am afraid I don't understand your specification. 10:48:32 splittist_ [~3ecbaa42@gateway/web/freenode/x-cqfghyfflihwiijt] has joined #lisp 10:48:48 j0be: Oh, those are indices? 10:49:10 yep, indices refering to the 'old list 10:49:45 so '(:a :a :b) has as a unique list (:a :b) but it maps to the old list as :a in position 0 and 1, and :b in position 2) 10:50:05 j0be: Do you need to handle things like (:a :b :a) as well? 10:50:15 beach: yep 10:50:34 j0be: Then you probably need a hash table to keep track of the indexes. 10:50:36 -!- splittist [~3ecbaa42@gateway/web/freenode/x-faxlcxsicmpykwel] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:51:15 beach: right, or a plist is what I had in mind. but ht is better scalable. for testing the algo plist is enough 10:52:09 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:52:09 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-245-224.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:52:29 drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:25 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 10:54:54 (good-morning-p) => T 10:56:15 beach pasted "For j0be" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95646 10:57:24 j0be: You might want to nreverse the index lists before returning them. 10:57:46 beach: yep indeed, I saw that! let me look at the code for a sec 10:58:10 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:58:34 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-04278.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:58:58 beach: that is very clear. I love loop and see what is going on. 10:59:32 j0be: Just use `collect (nreverse (gethash ...))' instead. 11:01:09 j0be annotated #95646 "For beach" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95646#1 11:01:54 Yeah, like that. 11:02:56 beach: thank you very much, this is something I couldn't get my head around. perfect. 11:03:07 j0be: No problem. 11:04:44 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-43-82-249-172-85.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:56 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:08:59 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:10:43 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:13:10 j0be annotated #95646 "explained" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95646#2 11:13:28 beach: I annotated the paste to see if I understand correctly. 11:17:18 Looks good. 11:17:52 beach: only don't understand the need of 'values' in the finally return.. 11:18:14 j0be: You want to return two things, the unique list and the indexes. 11:19:22 You could put them in a list, but multiple values is nicer. 11:20:13 beach: I modified, so I save the hashtable so I will use it later to put inverse the uniquification ;) 11:20:37 Sure, the hash table itself contains the information you need. 11:20:55 In that case, (return (values unique-list table)) 11:21:54 you could, if you so prefer, also get rid of one of the for's and use AND instead, which I think is pretty cool. 11:22:07 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:23:46 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:23:56 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:17 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 11:24:51 hypno: for "element in list and index from 0" 11:25:22 *j0be* means the first " to be before the for 11:25:50 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:30 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:27:09 yupp. 11:27:21 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.3] has joined #lisp 11:28:28 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:29:48 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.173.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:31:02 milanj [~milan@211.22.24.217.adsl2.dyn.beograd.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:02 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:38:16 Bah, file completion in Gsharp is broken. I think that has to do with changes to the directory function in SBCL. 11:45:58 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-40-45.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:45:58 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:48:14 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:49:14 when reading this ht in a loop, I get strange behaviour (AllegroCL). http://paste.lisp.org/+21SV 11:49:35 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:50:58 j0be pasted "weird hashtable loop behivour" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95648 11:52:23 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 11:52:34 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:54:38 -!- KimoOta [~tom@66-189-211-193.dhcp.elbg.wa.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:55:15 j0be: ((pprint k)(pprint v)) is not a valid form. 11:55:39 In lisp, parentheses are meaningful, you cannot add random parentheses. 11:57:15 -!- vng [~user@123.20.84.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:58:36 pjb: does not matter. if you only what to pprint the 'k' (the key in the hashtable), than the same error is raised 11:59:09 Annotate your paste with your new expression. 11:59:30 pjb: else a type-error would be raised (loop for k in '(1 2) and v in '(3 4) do ((pprint k)(pprint v))) --> type-error 11:59:56 ((pprint k)(pprint v)) is still an invalid form. 12:00:55 j0be annotated #95648 "renewed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95648#1 12:01:18 pjb: agreed on the invalid form of (( ) ( )) 12:02:20 You must have an C-d character somewhere. 12:03:09 found something, check the paste ... 12:03:13 Or perhaps Allegro doesn't deal with multi-line expressions. 12:03:23 It signals the EOF just at the end of the first line. 12:03:30 j0be annotated #95648 "update" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95648#2 12:03:56 Try putting everything on a single line. 12:05:00 silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has joined #lisp 12:05:04 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@122-57-7-86.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:05:33 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-92-133.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:05:38 yep, I got it. Maybe there was somewhere a strange character as I typed it again on the CLI and it seems to work now. 12:05:43 pjb: thanks for the effort 12:06:28 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:06:34 pjb annotated #95648 "works for me" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95648#3 12:08:28 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:38 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:10:53 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:14:27 Blkt [~user@net-93-146-150-17.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 12:14:30 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:14:41 mega1 [~quassel@53d828c5.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:15:01 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:16:02 Is there a clever way to return the Cartesian product of two lists? i.e. without using LOOP. 12:16:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-230-66.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:16:27 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-100-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:20:54 Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:22:36 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:22:47 I want to build an alist of lambdas at compiletime, to be read at runtime. Is this a bad idea? 12:22:53 If not, what's the right way to do it? 12:24:04 easyE: alexandria has map-product, which might be worth looking at 12:24:54 splittist: thanks. I was more worried that I was missing something from ANSI like SET-DIFFERENCE that would be helpful. 12:25:34 easyE: I know the feeling! (: 12:26:10 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Quit: Power outages around here, turning off computer as precaution. BBL!] 12:26:27 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-100-221.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:26:33 splittist: too bad you can't make it to Vienna tommorow, but I hope your son (?) is feeling better. 12:27:06 easyE: It is a pity - but he is definitely on the mend, thanks. 12:27:23 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:27:55 *splittist_* dreams of the WienLispers livecasting from head-mounted-cameras... 12:28:08 *easyE* chuckles. 12:29:03 I hope it will be that interesting. 12:30:02 What I specifically want to do is something along the lines of a roll-your-own defun, except without actually touching the function namespace, but using a global alist of (name . lambda) instead. 12:30:27 With the goal of being able to iterate over the definitions. 12:30:42 Is there a better way to do this? 12:30:53 Building the alist at compiletime doesn't seem to be reliable. 12:31:20 easyE: How could it not, in such a historic setting? Don't forget it was lispers who saved the city from being overrun in 1683, an event commemorated with parenthesis-shaped pastries called gipfeli (or croissants) (: 12:31:55 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:13 *easyE* laughs. "No, I didn't know that!" 12:32:41 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:33:07 Ralith: I can't really provide a useful comment: your strategy sounds plausible. 12:34:38 easyE: I'm pretty sure it breaks down whenever the compilation environment is not the execution environment. 12:34:46 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:34:49 that is, whenever compiletime != runtime. 12:35:50 of course, this is not acceptable. 12:37:22 The only solution I can come up with off the top of my head is just giving in and calling defun in another package to isolate it, but that strikes me as ugly, and I'm not sure how to iterate over the functions of a package (though I think it's possible) 12:37:51 That's what I thought of, interating through the package symbols. 12:38:15 LOOP would do that pretty easily; use FBOUNDP to pick out the functions. 12:38:37 But I thought you wanted the original DEFUN forms around for some reason. 12:40:28 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:40:29 I don't need the forms, but I'd rather not pollute any namespaces, and calling out to defun is a huge hack imo. 12:40:48 since the top-level macro I'm calling is not supposed to be defining a function. 12:41:10 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 12:43:10 -!- splittist_ [~3ecbaa42@gateway/web/freenode/x-cqfghyfflihwiijt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:47:40 finalprefix [~finalpref@122.182.0.38] has joined #lisp 12:49:43 -!- rstandy`` [~rastandy@net-93-144-67-152.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:49:49 Axius [~hi@92.82.68.82] has joined #lisp 12:51:39 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 12:51:50 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:51:53 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@122.182.0.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:52:49 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:04 finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has joined #lisp 12:54:20 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.68.82] has quit [Client Quit] 12:54:37 nitor [~nitor@cpe-66-25-205-147.sw.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:43 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 12:59:49 Lycurgus [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:00:31 -!- maus [~maus@222.253.106.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:03:03 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-240-2.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:03:56 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 13:05:43 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:06:16 -!- bizarrefish [~lee@host86-168-10-197.range86-168.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:08:27 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:06 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:11:19 lnostdal [~lnostdal@90.149.113.175] has joined #lisp 13:13:12 splittist [~3ecbaa42@gateway/web/freenode/x-zhbxwwvodlnjkifz] has joined #lisp 13:14:49 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:15:08 is there anything like the => operator in a scheme cond in common lisp? Where the result of test-form is available in form* 13:15:55 cl:cond does not implement that, but you could trivially do so yourself. 13:16:39 bytecolor: there's the WHEREAS construct, which should do this, but it's an extension 13:16:51 <_8david> (&aux it) ... (cond ((setf it frob) ... use it ...)) 13:16:51 hrm 13:17:02 what _8david said 13:17:46 *_8david* STR that it was a Xach trick, but wasn't certain 13:18:46 _8david: i first saw it in some old code but it doesn't seem to be widely used/known 13:19:39 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 13:19:51 that's pretty cool ;) I was thinking I could just wrap cond in a let, but the &aux does that for me eh 13:20:21 and here I was thinking &aux was a useless relic 13:21:33 hello lispers :) 13:22:17 bytecolor: you're not alone in this (: 13:22:20 hi fe[nl]ix (: 13:22:30 bytecolor: the &aux binds it in the entire function. 13:22:53 wgl [~wgl@c-98-227-91-74.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:55 a custom cond macro would be cleaner. 13:23:01 hello antifuchs 13:23:08 but for added perversion, use it in destructuring-bind ((-: 13:23:38 all the pointlessness of &aux, combined with the added indentation level (: 13:24:14 antifuchs: you already met luke ? 13:24:19 I did (: 13:24:32 he arrived a few hours ago, and we met up in a cafe 13:24:54 are you arriving tomorrow or today? 13:25:27 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:28 airolson_ [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:38 I'm already here 13:26:42 Kölnerhofgasse 3 13:26:52 he's sitting right behind you! 13:26:56 :D 13:27:15 ooh 13:27:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-240-2.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:16 alright! 13:29:27 fe[nl]ix: I'm at work right now, but maybe we can meet up in the evening (: 13:29:39 ok 13:30:29 Xach's right, that's just around the corner from where I work (: 13:30:38 I'll meet luke in ~30 minutes, and tobias will be arriving around 18:00 13:30:47 *fe[nl]ix* -> shower 13:31:29 awesome 13:31:43 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:55 talk to you later (I can't really guarantee I'll be able to make it this evening, am extremely tired and may fall asleep standing up at any time... we'll see in the evening) (: 13:33:57 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-240-2.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:34:06 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:35:40 brandonedens [~brandon@wsip-70-184-10-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:41 antifuchs: btw, my host is a metalab member and CL programmer :D 13:35:58 oooh 13:36:07 awesome (: 13:36:12 who is it? (: 13:36:17 Michael Alexander 13:36:22 ah, cool 13:36:48 have him come to the meeting! I don't know if I mailed him or not 13:38:54 Joreji [~thomas@89-123.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:40:54 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@89-123.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:48:49 Joreji [~thomas@89-123.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:48:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:51:20 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:52:42 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:52:57 -!- xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:54:26 xan_ [~xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:55:28 finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has joined #lisp 13:57:02 Yuuhi [benni@p5483E3F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:53 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vhrsqbpnecgujrqw] has left #lisp 14:00:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-240-2.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:00:31 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 14:03:44 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:06:27 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-240-2.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:06:34 -!- gzip4 [~xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:50 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-134-235.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:09:55 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:57 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 14:12:36 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:34 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838]] 14:16:31 TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:07 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 14:17:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-240-2.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:20:06 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:20:30 egoz [~Egoz@125.160.244.180] has joined #lisp 14:21:07 carlocci [~nes@93.37.201.38] has joined #lisp 14:23:05 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:24:25 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:25:17 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-161-83-6.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:23 G'morning all. 14:25:32 hey nyef 14:25:44 reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:27:52 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:29:23 nyef: hi 14:29:58 ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 14:30:11 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 14:30:12 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:27 -!- egoz [~Egoz@125.160.244.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:32:30 nyef: I assume async. signaling is necessary for SBCL to function properly? 14:32:47 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:32:56 It... could be done away with in a pinch, why? 14:33:26 nyef: just checking, cause I recall something about issues on windows being related (for some time) to lack of signals 14:33:33 Ah. Yes. 14:33:45 Sorting that mess out is on my todo list. 14:33:56 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 14:34:17 -!- j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:36 But, essentially, SIGINT handling (by any other name) is broken, and two of the problems with threads are STOP-FOR-GC and INTERRUPT-THREAD, both of which are currently implemented in terms of signals. 14:34:51 nyef: I was just wondering if it's possible (cause I can't find enough docs and I don't have a win32 machine ready to test) to reuse VEH mechanism for signaling (kinda like CHF is used on VMS to implement POSIX signals) 14:34:51 -!- Tonijz [~tonijs@85.254.194.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:35:05 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@219-89-92-133.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:35:30 that is however a NT5.1 (or later) solution for signaling 14:35:35 was it broken in 1.0.31? 14:35:36 I'd rather not, for a number of reasons. 14:36:07 One of which is that vectored handlers are a per-process resource, and thus don't play well in terms of interop. 14:36:25 Could go with safe points... 14:36:34 nyef: so it might not play well with FFI? 14:36:53 Yeah, a lot of the tricky-bits processing on Win32 is to do with FFI. 14:36:54 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: VM Reboot.] 14:37:28 oh, it's dos specific 14:37:57 nyef: isn't there any "safe" exception that could be used? 14:38:32 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:38:37 You can only install -one- global vectored handler. 14:39:17 wasn't it "one per exception"? 14:39:27 And you -still- lose in terms of FFI if you do, because exceptions are synchronous. 14:39:29 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 14:39:44 And if you break synchronicity you risk breaking a ton of stuff. 14:40:47 splittist_ [~3ecbaa42@gateway/web/freenode/x-pyizuevsspsbmwqv] has joined #lisp 14:41:14 -!- splittist [~3ecbaa42@gateway/web/freenode/x-zhbxwwvodlnjkifz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:41:27 synchronousness? 14:41:58 synchronicity is something else :) 14:42:31 dlowe: hahaha 14:42:32 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:04 *p_l* meanwhile read up on POSIX signals and finds he needs to take a refresher course since his old 1996 one 14:43:07 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:43:25 (it never covered sigaltstack for example!) 14:44:24 Sergio`__ [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:45:51 dlowe: Actually, I'd argue that synchronicity is the right word, just with a different meaning from the usual because our definition for synchronous means something different from the usual in the first place. 14:46:05 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:46:26 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:47:01 Q: I know the size of the list and I want to set a value on the nth place in a list, what should I do? 14:47:27 (setf (nth n list) value) 14:47:28 setf nth, incredibly enough. 14:47:39 And incredibly enought, it's O(n). 14:47:42 (or make sure you never have to do that) 14:47:44 clhs setf 14:47:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 14:48:06 j0be: the thing to notice is that http://l1sp.org/cl/nth is documented as an "accessor" 14:48:18 pkhuong: check that is the alternative. 14:49:20 -!- ASau`` is now known as ASau``` 14:51:08 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:46 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-213-226.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 14:53:39 sunwukong [~vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:55:21 tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:18 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 14:58:33 davazp [~user@83.46.0.116] has joined #lisp 14:59:23 "synchronicity" refers to an acausal temporal relationship defined I believe by c g jung 14:59:36 it wouldn't normally be used in a programming context 15:00:07 maybe an ai context where serendipity might also be treated 15:01:21 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:02:07 Lycurgus: to name the state of being synchronous? why not? It's not like programmers have ever refrained from abusing bad puns. 15:03:51 Lycurgus: actually, I can see synchronicity happening in concurrent programming context, and I include inter-process and inter-thread stuff as well. 15:03:57 just the reality of English 15:04:07 as she is akshally used 15:04:17 and with the number of lispers now converging on Vienna, a Jungian reference seems particularly appropriate 15:04:30 from 1st principles, no reason 15:04:31 *p_l* had just yesterday a quite long discussion regarding synchronization issues in multiprocessor systems 15:04:34 Lycurgus: I always thought English wasn't prescriptive as much as descriptive. 15:04:38 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:04:58 I'll keep using boxen. Feel free to complain loudly about it. 15:05:05 well it exists in a cultural and historical context like any other natural lang 15:06:17 *a determinate cultural and historical context 15:06:25 -!- rswarbrick [rupert@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:06:25 **determinative 15:06:50 I'll debate your use of the singular context here. 15:07:21 rswarbrick [rupert@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:07:24 splittist_: indeed it does! 15:07:33 splittist_: hope your son gets better soon, btw 15:07:54 antifuchs: thanks (: 15:07:55 well at some arbitrary level, like "pre-singularity history of dui qi" 15:08:18 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 15:08:30 *Lycurgus* afk 15:08:31 Driving Under the Influence Quality Improvement? 15:08:48 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-146-150-17.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:09:24 minion: what does duiqi mean? 15:09:24 Deformational Unblemishing Incruentous Quad Irreprovably 15:09:53 (chinese for "planet earth") 15:10:06 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.79.133] has joined #lisp 15:15:26 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:29 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:48 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:17:14 -!- Sergio`__ is now known as Sergio` 15:18:41 tbourdon [~tbourdon@wsip-72-215-204-133.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:27 rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:11 j4k0b [~j4k0b@1503024517.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:21:23 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:22:16 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:23:58 jewel [~jewel@41.27.232.223] has joined #lisp 15:24:00 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@122.167.75.72] has joined #lisp 15:25:38 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 15:25:59 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-79-116-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:26:44 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.79.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:28:05 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-79-116-184.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:28:39 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-100-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29:06 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:29:32 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:30:27 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-116-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:11 Sumpen [Sumpen@138.199.66.90] has joined #lisp 15:35:52 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.27.232.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:36:38 -!- milanj [~milan@211.22.24.217.adsl2.dyn.beograd.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:42:13 -!- Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:43:45 jewel [~jewel@41.27.232.223] has joined #lisp 15:44:58 ShadowChild [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 15:45:18 fiveop [~fiveop@g229146222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:02 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad86 15:48:40 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:50:29 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 15:52:55 ... Hey, neat! Some software for running CLIM apps over a web browser. 15:53:14 -!- finalprefix [~finalpref@59.162.86.164] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:55:11 mrbug [~user@cpe-67-241-10-210.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:54 -!- davazp [~user@83.46.0.116] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56:58 nyef: Where? 15:57:09 http://www.ai.sri.com/~pkarp/clim-www/tool.html 15:57:24 ah, yes, that has been around for a while. 15:57:48 Only 15 years, though 15:58:21 I should really check it out. 15:58:50 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:59:07 The web is 30 years old. 16:00:44 Aw no, it's only 20 years old. 16:00:47 wasn't mcclim supposed to do that originally? did the plug-in ever actually get written? 16:00:53 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:07 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-116-184.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:08 Lycurgus: I don't recall any plans for that. 16:01:13 I do 16:01:14 Xof, memo from froydnj: what do you think an appropriate error message for https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/525916 is? I've added extra checking code in PARSE-SPECIALIZED-LAMBDA-LIST, but can't come up with a good error message 16:01:27 Xof: Did I write that? 16:01:29 I wrote the display half of a mcclim backend for canvas 16:01:49 AndChat| [~AndChat@m4d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:52 admittedly, minus text, because when I wrote it canvas didn't support drawing text 16:01:52 Xof: Boy, my memory is getting worse by the day. 16:02:13 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:32 Xof: What about things like presentations? 16:04:06 I was going to use client-side javascript 16:04:16 with canvas, you can get the mouseX and Y positions 16:04:35 send to the browser the bounding boxes of presentations, and have a click transmitted to the server 16:04:47 a colleague pointed out that it is probably cleverer to use SVG 16:04:58 because then you don't need to send bounding box information over; the client can do that 16:05:28 Xof: Wouldn't that be quite a large amount of client-side code either way? 16:05:36 ... And you can probably do something clever with CSS classes, too. 16:05:52 -!- rswarbrick [rupert@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:05:53 beach: I don't /think/ so 16:05:56 rswarbrick [rupert@molotov.compsoc.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:06:35 So why haven't you suggested this as a programming project for my students? 16:06:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@89-123.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:00 [not that any students would take it] 16:07:04 I think that what counts as a 'large' amount of js increases very rapidly. 16:07:05 with svg, it's probably something like onMouseOver = function () { object.style.border-style = 'solid'; } 16:07:07 Because it's been mostly forgotten-about for the past few years? 16:07:30 (pseudojavascript only) 16:07:37 nyef: Could be, yes. I'll put it on my Lisp-projects page. 16:07:45 -!- sunwukong [~vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:54 beach: it's the perfect HTML5 project! And that has to be good, because 5 > 4.1! 16:08:06 Obviously. 16:08:23 iClim! 16:08:25 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:09:27 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:09:40 -!- AndChat| [~AndChat@m4d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:09:46 Agile iClim ExpressApp for the NoSQL Enterprise!!!111! 16:09:48 *splittist_* stops 16:09:54 -!- airolson_ [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: airolson_] 16:10:19 milanj [~milan@cable-89-216-113-6.static.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:10:30 AndChat| [~AndChat@m4d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:45 (I missed 'cloud') 16:11:02 ACEANE? 16:11:29 *beach* doesn't get it. 16:13:01 Ugh. My linux environment has clearly slipped below any reasonable threshhold of usability: Not only does mplayer not work, but now I don't even have a pdf reader. 16:13:24 apt-get install xpdf 16:13:31 Sorry. That wasn't the joke. (We could try Iphone/Nexus/Android Netapp Environment...) 16:13:31 nyef: oh, dear. What did you do to it? 16:13:46 beach: Gentoo system. :-( 16:13:50 nyef: scribd. use teh cloud! 16:13:59 nyef: Why Gentoo? 16:14:04 nyef: well, that's the price you pay for whatever the benefits of gentoo are supposed to be :) 16:14:17 nyef, you're trying to listen to music, watch movies, and read stuff? sounds like you need an iPad. 16:14:28 Yeah, yeah. I'm giving serious thought to trying to switch to debian. 16:14:29 splittist_: I would like to see an iphone app reviewer's face when presented with something using CLIM 16:14:37 *rsynnott* suspects it would not pass the HIG test :) 16:14:48 nyef: Ubuntu is quite nice, really. Debian but less ancient 16:14:54 Adlai: pretty much my thoughts, actually. 16:15:02 Bah - programming for humans is so last decade 16:15:09 rsynnott: debian is newer, actually 16:15:18 rsynnott: ubuntu is a hacked up old snapshot of debian unstable 16:15:33 pkhuong, as an _appliance_, sure, but I bristle when it gets passed off as a netbook-equivalent. 16:15:34 every once in a while they decide to pull whatever happens to be unstable at the time 16:16:04 so unstable will be newer, and testing will be more stable than ubuntu. and a lot of the apps that ubuntu developed are being added to debian anyway. 16:16:28 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.27.232.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:16:49 rsynnott: also, anything written by apple these days fails their HIG miserably 16:16:59 beach: hi 16:16:59 ever since 2003, for sure 16:17:00 -!- AndChat| [~AndChat@m4d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:17:23 OS X was a blistering violation of most of their important HIGs 16:17:49 rahul: oh, they have a new one 16:17:55 and an even newer one for iphone 16:18:04 (and presumably yet another for ipad; I haven't looked) 16:18:22 probably has the most stupid things in it 16:18:45 like "keep things that should never be confused with each other next to each other and don't clearly label which is which" 16:19:38 actually, now I think of it, the iPAd HIG originally demanded that all apps be rotateable 16:19:52 when the games people complained that this was stupid, they backed down a bit 16:20:11 most games should be rotatable 16:20:41 landscape, you can have a HUD, portrait, you can have a dashboard, if it's a flight sim, for example 16:20:51 Fare: Chào Em. 16:21:11 just requires a second of thought to bring back the way that games had UI options back in the 90s 16:21:16 rahul: card games :) 16:21:17 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:21:17 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:24 AndChat| [~AndChat@m4d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:31 rsynnott: pff, rotating those is easy 16:21:41 (especially bridge; you COULD have it rotateable, but it'd be unpleasant) 16:21:58 bridge would be equally unpleasant in either orientation 16:22:04 I don't see why one is better than the other 16:22:44 Fare: In my Vietnamese class, we are working with this article now: http://www.hanoimoi.com.vn/newsdetail/1000_nam_thang_long/224353/cay-xanh-ha-n7897i-va-quanh-h7891-g432417m.htm 16:22:46 just say that all apps have to fit in the largest circle that fits in the center of an iPad screen, and you're done. 16:22:56 then it can even be rotated to 45° 16:23:20 almost all computer bridge games have basically the same layout (bidding box in middle, hands in correct place, completed tricks closest the player). If you rotate that you have to shift everything around, and resize things, and so on 16:23:23 the leftover space can be used to advertise more apps and music 16:23:32 then it would be an iDisc 16:23:34 Adlai: well, you could do that all right :) 16:23:36 hahaha 16:23:38 nice 16:23:47 rahul: don't give them ideas 16:24:26 rsynnott: oh teh horrorz, they might need to use 4 lines of cards instead of 2 to display them in portrait 16:24:53 beach: have you seen interface-passing style? 16:25:09 Fare: I don't like it. what if you pass the wrong interface with the wrong object? 16:25:10 Fare: doesn't ring a bell. 16:25:14 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-184-206-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:22 beach: in algorithm class, you could be asking students to implement common algorithm with this style and contribute to fare-utils :) 16:25:32 Fare: the interface must be passed correctly along with the object at all times, in which case, why not make them the same object? 16:25:40 rahul, what if you call a function with the wrong objects? 16:25:48 So, I was thinking that since I have a 1280x800 widescreen display I could knock out a 1024x768 window for running apps in, and have a 256x800 sidebar for something else like one of those irritating paperclips and a 1024x32 bar at the bottom of the screen for something... 16:26:05 Fare: no, this is like being required to pass x and (sqrt x) to a function 16:26:25 rahul: how do you make nil a binary tree? how do you make an alist an object of class alist? 16:26:30 and if you don't calculate the sqrt correctly, it gives some obscure error 16:26:38 nyef: as long as it can all rotate :) 16:26:45 Fare: you don't. you use strong types when you care about those things 16:26:49 rahul: because the interface changes much less frequently than the other arguments. 16:26:59 pkhuong: not if the other args are objects... 16:27:09 huh? 16:27:09 rsynnott: Given that the touchscreen on my hardware isn't on speaking terms with my software, I'm not so worried about that. 16:27:13 nyef: Why do you have such a display? 16:27:20 pkhuong: the interface has to be based on how the other objects were constructed 16:27:35 rahul: absolutely not. They're based on how the objects should be interpreted. 16:27:38 [as opposed to two 1600x1200 monitors like I do] 16:27:50 beach: Laptop/tablet? 16:27:59 pkhuong: which is based on how they were constructed 16:28:03 Oh, you *work* on those? 16:28:12 pkhuong: you can't pass it a plist and say "interpret as an alist" 16:28:12 Hell yes! 16:28:35 rahul: yet both were constructed by CONSing conses together. 16:28:41 Sounds like self-inflicted pain to me. 16:28:41 beach: http://fare.livejournal.com/155094.html 16:28:44 jdz [~jdz@84.237.142.223] has joined #lisp 16:28:56 It has the amazing advantage of going -with- me when I travel. 16:29:06 pkhuong: so use strong types when you want OO 16:29:15 (polymorphism, to be specific) 16:29:52 I just don't see what you gain by doing this. clearly, it's doable. 16:29:55 rahul: do you also think that visitor pattern should be implemented by wrapping everything instead of using double dispatch? 16:30:15 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:30:21 pkhuong: I can't see how either is useful for the visitor pattern 16:30:29 -!- AndChat| [~AndChat@m4d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:30:57 the only clean way to implement the visitor pattern is like CLOS does it :) 16:31:06 right. double dispatch. 16:31:37 if you mean non-chained, ok 16:31:37 Fare: Looks interesting. I'll think about it. 16:31:57 pkhuong: but that IS wrapping it instead of chaining it 16:31:58 "On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!], `Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."  Charles Babbage 16:32:00 So... interface-oriented programming is somewhat like a cross between visitor-pattern and... method-object? 16:32:11 rahul: no, the interface is like a visitor. 16:32:25 You keep passing the same interface object when you want the same set of behaviours. 16:32:38 pkhuong: generic functions are like wrapping vs chaining dispatch 16:32:51 and if you pass the wrong interface, you get garbage 16:32:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-213-226.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:03 so why not have the interface attached to the object directly? 16:33:06 rahul: and if I use the wrong generic function name I also get garbage. 16:33:25 rahul: because the same object can have multiple interfaces 16:33:34 Morning folks. 16:33:39 (which implement the same operations at that!) 16:33:43 different interfaces should involve different operators 16:33:57 Morning gigamonkey 16:33:58 rahul: no, they're just different implementations of the same interface. 16:34:09 rahul: is that CONS cell part of a list, a set, an alist, a plist, a tree, a CL sexp, a CL formals specification? 16:34:19 hey gigamonkey 16:34:20 Fare: my point exactly 16:34:31 Fare: use strong types when you want polymorphism 16:34:49 Fare, I had a dream about the accent in your name last night. 16:34:51 rahul: with a separate interface, it can several of these at the same time. You can pun. 16:34:59 lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 16:35:02 gigamonkey: I'm sure you want to keep it concise, but perhaps you could add a reference to other ebook readers to the CoQu page (so those without Kindles don't get the incorrect impression they're being excluded). 16:35:35 (that is, not to specific readers, but to readers in general) 16:35:37 Actually, I *did* use puns in implementing hash-tables, where Haskellers would have had to use some additional constructor or so. 16:35:42 rahul: also, because you keep using the same interface for different objects. You could add another level of indirection, or just factor the interface out. 16:35:42 hrm 16:35:48 gigamonkey, that's scary. 16:35:52 splittist_: good point. What's a good way to say "all readers" 16:35:58 gigamonkey, sorry I did that to you 16:36:12 rahul, I want *parametric* polymorphism. 16:36:20 Fare: it was because you were on the list of people I had to send email about CQ and I didn't know if Gmail was going to choke on the accent. 16:36:25 and I want it in CL, not in a language implemented on top of CL 16:36:37 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has left #lisp 16:36:39 Speaking of which, did you get that email, pointing you to the writer's guidelines? 16:36:43 I think I'm getting it 16:36:45 I did 16:36:51 didn't follow the link yet, though 16:37:18 dependent types are nice, too. 16:37:19 gigamonkey: as in ng V Bân? 16:37:20 so let's say you have a generic REF operator that does index access on sequences and associatve access on alists 16:37:32 beach, stop, you'll give him nightmares... 16:37:39 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:37:40 [sorry] 16:37:51 (ref alist 5) will give the 5th assoc pair in the alist 16:37:55 beach: besides, it's usually spelled ng-V Bân (with a dash). 16:38:09 rahul: you got the idea (except that Haskell can't express that, because typeclass resolution is entirely automated) 16:38:13 (ref alist 'foo) will give the association of FOO in the alist 16:38:14 Fare: Ah, learned something. Thanks! 16:38:40 jewel [~jewel@41.27.232.223] has joined #lisp 16:38:43 *gigamonkey* looks forward to the day when we can count on all software grokking Unicode characters without hiccups. 16:38:51 gigamonkey: I use Gmail whenever I want to send Vietnamese text to someone. It works great! 16:38:52 beach: that name doesn't have "an" accent 16:39:05 beach: gigamonkey is going to have a trilogy of dreams now! 16:39:18 *Fare* remembers the bad old days of pre-unicode vietnamese 16:39:21 (in the Dune/HHGttG sense of trilogy) 16:39:30 rahul: True, it has two (the dot and the ~) 16:39:45 rahul: "Increasingly Inaccurately Named"? 16:40:19 nyef: exactly 16:40:34 gigamonkey: it's not smooth, but you could say 'ebook (including Kindle and iPad) versions' 16:41:11 beach: is the ^ also considered an accent? the other two are probably better termed diacritcals I guess 16:41:18 splittist_: I'll think about it. In the meantime, rest assured, if someone wants to pay us, we'll get them a version for their device, if at all possible. 16:41:41 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:42:01 splittist_: what format do you need non-DRM'd mobi? 16:42:15 rahul: the , , and â are different letters from d and a. They just look like accents to someone who only knows English. 16:42:16 is mobi specifically the DRM'd version of something else. 16:42:34 beach: ok, fair enough 16:42:48 beach, rahul: I think the technical term that encompasses all those is "funny characters" 16:42:52 gigamonkey: as long as it's non-drmed they're pretty much interchangeable. Have you looked at what Baen/Webscriptions does? 16:43:26 gigamonkey: well, that's more general. it includes stuff like ¿ 16:43:38 gigamonkey: that is to say, inter-translateable 16:43:48 convertible? 16:43:52 and  16:44:31 splittist_: I haven't looked at Baen yet but that's an obvious place to start. 16:44:39 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:17 gigamonkey: Sure, and I realize you are joking, but the question is interesting. In Swedish for instance, å, ä, and ö come after z in the alphabet. No Swede would consider ö as an o with a diacritcal mark on it, just the way no speaker of English would consider h to be an n with a bar on it. 16:46:30 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:47:16 or a w to be a double v? :) 16:47:35 it's not double v, it's double u 16:47:53 splittist_: hmmm, webscriptions.net seems to feature iPhone, iTouch, and Kindle editions. 16:48:01 jdz: no, that would be omega :) 16:48:29 gigamonkey: and are the iphone/itouch editions through amazon's kindle software? 16:48:35 dunno. 16:48:42 gigamonkey: yeah, but that's just the same things for people new to reading books on devices. It's just mobi 16:48:46 Actually that's just what's on their front page. But they actually offer "Palm Pilot/Mobipocket/Kindle format, Rocketbook, EPUB/Stanza, Sony LRF, RTF and MS Reader versions." 16:48:49 (aiui) 16:49:26 Yet, interestingly, no PDFs 16:49:41 gigamonkey: mobi is a HTML-based format with Palm database as container (PRC files, sometimes with .mobi extension). The DRM is based on good, old gethostid 16:50:01 oh, and afaik it takes EPUB straight 16:50:24 *gigamonkey* is sure he's going to get deeply conversant with all this foo 16:50:24 webscriptions don't do PDF on order of the late Mr. Baen 16:50:26 gigamonkey: I imagine that's because they are mainly novels, so PDF adds nothing and subtracts much 16:50:50 splittist_: there's a note regarding why there are no PDFs at all 16:51:00 p_l: Ah, OK. 16:51:32 gigamonkey: a simple XSL workflow should get you where you need to be (: 16:51:38 basically, it's because it's a format that can't be properly reformatted (it is possible, but it's not the best idea), two, it's harder to extract data or convert it to another format. 16:51:59 three, it's kinda fat 16:52:02 and webscriptions is all about "you can do whatever the fuck you want with this, except sell commercially" 16:52:30 p_l: I was just thinking that the webscriptions model (buy the book, get all the formats) meant the drawbacks of PDF didn't follow you forever... 16:53:03 splittist_: yeah, but Mr. Baen was against PDFs due to that, and the main format is still HTML for them 16:53:50 all of their HTML publications are EPUB-compatible, as well. (*.MOBI is also kind of EPUB format, just packaged differently and with support for stuff like DRM) 16:54:20 *p_l* also recalls an "evil" DRM scheme that didn't require licensing keys or anything 16:54:51 there's an e-book shop that gives you files encrypted with the number of your card (and the security code) as the encryption key :> 16:55:08 *splittist_* shudders at recalling what the Amazon topaz format ended up being... 16:55:10 each book is encrypted separately for each customer 16:56:06 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.27.232.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:56:33 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:57:36 gigamonkey: why 'Code' rather than 'Coders' Quarterly? To avoid the inevitable apostrophe confusions? 16:58:19 Look at the domain: codersquarterly.com. Looks like coder-squarterly. 16:58:40 Amazingly codequarterly.com, codersquarterly.com, and coderquarterly.com were all available. 16:58:49 anecdote: I believe that the reason that Goldsmiths College has no apostrophe is because Academic Board couldn't agree where it should go 16:58:51 Ah - the Experts Exchange issue (: 17:00:25 Originally it was going to be called Hacker Foo but the guy who's got hackerfoo.com -- and not doing anything with it -- wouldn't sell. 17:00:37 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:00:39 prxq [~mommer@g228072066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:03 hi 17:01:03 apostrophes, serious business 17:01:24 Woohoo! @codequarterly has 100 twitter followers 17:02:05 Success is guaranteed! 17:02:24 if you mobilize them all simultaneously, you could get a 14000-word article! 17:02:34 oh no, 14000 byte. Sorry 17:02:44 back to the drawing board 17:02:57 vng [~vng@123.20.110.161] has joined #lisp 17:03:33 14000 characters 17:03:44 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:03:46 Xof: you could encode 256 different words and still have a 14000-word article. A 256 word dictionnary is not totally ridiculous... 17:03:51 Zephyrus [~emanuele@zephyrus.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:55 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@zephyrus.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:03:55 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:04:03 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:04:04 stassats: really? I thought it was specifically a 140-byte limit 17:04:36 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 17:04:36 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 17:04:36 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 17:04:57 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-117-44.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:06:45 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:07:15 Xof: that would be too english-centric 17:07:48 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-58-205.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:45 "Tweet length is measured by the number of codepoints in the NFC normalized version of the text." 17:08:54 yes, I got there in the end 17:09:01 I am pleasantly surprised 17:12:06 gigamonkey: you're not expecting to be hunted down by outraged hams for the CQ hijack? 17:12:11 Blkt [~user@net-93-146-150-17.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 17:13:09 I guess the crazy quilters will run interference... 17:14:06 gigamonkey: have you thought about what your copyright policy is likely to be? 17:14:19 -!- jdz [~jdz@84.237.142.223] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:14:59 jdz [~jdz@84.237.142.223] has joined #lisp 17:15:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:15:41 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:17:23 jewel [~jewel@41.29.227.137] has joined #lisp 17:18:43 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:21:31 konr` [~user@187.117.61.13] has joined #lisp 17:22:09 -!- reprore [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:00 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7553b7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:23 -!- konr [~user@187.88.125.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:23:44 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:24:37 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:25:07 Xof: what would you like? (I imagine there would be a difference between articles and books.) 17:26:15 who's paying you, splittist_? :-) 17:27:17 Xof: I should have said - as an observer, I'd be interested in knowing what sort of arrangements would be attractive to a working academic 17:27:43 I have lots of desireables: e.g. being able to distribute preprints; being able to translate into other formats or other languages; being able to use material in lectures 17:28:00 Xof: Is there any decent documentation out there on how SBCL's compiler works, or is it mostly in peoples heads? 17:28:03 many of them are strictly incompatible with many traditional journal agreements 17:28:30 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:28:35 most of which involve explicit copyright transfer, and (if we're lucky) a rights grant back for certain extremely limited use 17:28:43 danly [~danleslie@S010600259c4d3771.vs.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:44 often "you may put a preprint in your institutional repository" 17:28:52 so what happens is that people ignore the copyright transfer agreements :-) 17:28:58 Xof: indeed! 17:29:07 sometimes I actually cross out the bits that I don't plan to obey, but mostly I don't bother 17:29:08 hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-81-42.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:09 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-58-205.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:29:09 -!- hadronzoo_ is now known as hadronzoo 17:29:13 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:09 -!- silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has quit [Quit: silenius] 17:30:14 I haven't yet had a published come back and say "sorry, no, we can't do this, because you've reserved the right to translate your article into English" 17:30:21 "publisher" 17:30:52 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@122.167.75.72] has left #lisp 17:30:55 I wonder if gigamonkey's revenue model depends on a monetisable exclusive archive. 17:31:15 well, yes 17:31:19 I wonder that too 17:31:27 Xof: are there any journal licences you actually liked? I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any. 17:32:12 *splittist_* went all usaian spelling there 17:32:31 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:32:37 (or not) Grrr 17:34:02 I had a feeling that there was one that was acceptable 17:34:16 but that might have been because I decided to claim that my stuff was under Crown Copyright 17:34:28 (at which point they're not allowed to grab it) 17:34:41 so, "no". 17:35:04 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:35:07 there was also one that changed recently to be much less obnoxious, but I really can't bring to mind what it was 17:36:15 Xof (and others following along, if inclined): to start at the other end, what would you be prepared to agree not to do, and for how long (for a journal article, say)? 17:37:19 so, here's the thing. I'm not really willing to accept any kind of "you may not publish this content except through us" agreement. But on the other hand, I probably wouldn't be writing for the money 17:37:47 I certainly wouldn't if it was on work time. Hypothetically, let's imagine that I'm writing in (ah haha haha) "spare time" 17:38:52 if there was a reasonable expectation that other people, even if they weren't academics, would read the article and refer to it, it would still probably be in my interest not to be paid but to be allowed to distribute freely 17:39:03 citations being what an academic gets out of bed for 17:39:13 What about time-limited exclusivity? "You may not publish this except through us... until July 2011"? 17:39:39 time-limited exclusivity would be interesting 17:39:41 if I'm writing something completely unconnected with work, that will never be noticed by my boss / reviewing panel / funding councils, then I'd probably accept some limits 17:39:53 anyway 17:40:04 speaking of the academic lifestyle, I'm going to go and work at home rather than work at work 17:40:26 maybe a flexible arrangement, i.e. "we can accomodate changes for the purpose of obtaining good articles"? ;-) 17:40:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:43:02 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 17:43:02 -!- danly [~danleslie@S010600259c4d3771.vs.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:45:58 *splittist_* needs to go so he can shop before working at home ): 17:46:41 (to be clear, I have no reln with giga beyond owning his books - but I have a professional interest in publishing, licenses etc.) 17:46:56 -!- splittist_ [~3ecbaa42@gateway/web/freenode/x-pyizuevsspsbmwqv] has quit [Quit: sew confusion!] 17:47:47 parolang2 [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:12 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 17:58:21 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.75.72] has joined #lisp 17:58:26 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.29.227.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:59:04 *p_l* would like to publish some stuff one day, and Code Quarterly looks like fine out for his computer-related ideas 18:00:35 hell, I've got some stuff that definitely could be made into articles in the future, as soon as I get the time to flesh it out from jumbled notes into actual project (a kind of WIP as I learn by doing them - as someone said, the best way to learn something is to write a book about it) 18:02:46 rdd [~user@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:03:20 Xof: re copyright. Not sure. I'll need to acquire enough rights to publish in all the various media we plan to use. 18:04:20 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:49 But for longer pieces (i.e. mini-books) I'd expect that maybe the author would keep copyright, giving up only publication rights until such time as we let things go out of print. 18:05:23 But even book publishers do it both ways. With Apress, I own the copyright to my books. But O'Reilly gets the copyright on its books. 18:06:16 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082FF68.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:01 -!- ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:07:28 drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:53 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 18:08:46 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:14 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082EA9B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:10:24 davazp [~user@83.46.0.116] has joined #lisp 18:10:26 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:16 tcr [~tcr@85-127-204-224.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:16:26 -!- fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...] 18:16:49 fgtech [fgtech@193.219.39.203] has joined #lisp 18:18:43 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-30-64.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:23:13 splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:23:24 It's OK, I'm back! 18:26:04 greetings from vienna 18:27:07 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:28:57 hi tcr. How's the weather? :-) 18:30:00 How's the hacking? (or, at least, the drinking and talking) 18:30:01 gigamonkey: what about giving copyright to authors and putting an exclusivity clause into publishing contract, with possible exceptions? 18:30:45 alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 18:31:04 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 18:31:05 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 18:31:05 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 18:31:12 ski [~slj@c-0611e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:31:56 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:35:20 gigamonkey: do you see C.25 more as a subscription thing, or are you expecting most of the revenue to come from sales of individual pieces? Go on, you can predict the future! 18:38:11 *splittist* reads the Writer's guidelines and can't wait for the first one to hit the newstands! 18:38:13 splittist: C¼ looks nicer ;-) 18:38:24 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 18:38:30 or maybe C/4 :) 18:38:55 I like C/4 - I wonder if the NSA will notice... 18:39:03 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 18:39:11 Axius [~fd@109.97.56.172] has joined #lisp 18:39:32 splittist: that would be C4 18:39:39 they don't seem to care 18:40:10 GrayGnome [~MuneNoKag@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 18:40:24 p_l: yes, but having read The Daemon I assume Echelon has been outsourced to Google, and they tend to ignore punctuation (: 18:40:38 jmbr [~jmbr@164.245.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:41:32 -!- GrayGnome [~MuneNoKag@isr5162.urh.uiuc.edu] has left #lisp 18:41:58 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.75.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:21 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.75.72] has joined #lisp 18:42:25 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.75.72] has left #lisp 18:43:23 ... What's a ":MORE TN"? (From the comment near the end of pack.lisp starting with "Pack any leftover normal TNs.") 18:46:25 nyef: there's a limit on the number of local TNs a 2block can have. 18:46:48 nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.136.41] has joined #lisp 18:46:58 Which means...? 18:47:08 splittist: 18:47:09 (I'm really not familiar with this part of the compiler.) 18:47:09 er 18:47:18 I'm going to try to make money any way I can! 18:47:35 Usually, that's worked around by splitting blocks. However, if a single VOP has too many TNs (64 in the current configuration), then we have to do weird stuff. 18:48:05 nyef: local TNs are TNs that are only live through a single 2block (vop.lisp:108) 18:48:09 gigamonkey: how's the Java market these days? :P 18:49:09 The idea is that we can represent conflicting live ranges more efficiently (and precisely) for these TNs, with bitvectors, but we don't want to die when a VOP has dozens of TNs. 18:49:53 So that's... the local-conflicts thing? 18:50:39 and local-tns/written/live-in/live-out 18:50:53 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:23 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:51:28 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@32.132.221.50] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 18:51:32 gigamonkey: the only sensible approach! I'm wondering if there will be a sufficiently large difference between the style of c4 and academic periodicals that (a) allowing Xof to repurpose the content for academic publication; and (b) preventing Xof from having the PDF on his publications page would work for all concerned. 18:51:33 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:53:17 splittist: I think it'll be different enough from an academic journal that the same article would not fit in both. 18:53:33 CQ is going for "popularized but not stupid". 18:54:13 'engaging but deep'? 18:54:23 Yeah, something like that. 18:54:33 not vulgarized 18:54:35 gigamonkey: 25-50 pages is quite a bit of work :) 18:54:59 'An Objective Analysis of the Arc Menace' by Xach 18:55:10 drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 18:55:19 *Xach* found an interesting 9-year-old article about the arc menace today 18:55:29 froydnj: yeah. It's more like writing a small book. 18:55:41 We'll probably do shorter pieces as well, especially in the beginning. 18:55:44 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3216002118211980@naggum.net.html "In most other language communities..." 18:55:53 Don't not submit a proposal just because the length seems daunting. 18:57:16 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-10-54.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:57:38 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:57:49 Xach: "a portion of the wheel"...brilliant 18:58:54 -!- alinp [~alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [Quit: alinp] 18:59:05 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-79-116-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:10 hmm... an interesting column for CQ would be a regular piece about available libraries, something like a picked library/tool, explained with tutorial etc., especially the less known ones or explained in depth for the popular ones. 19:00:41 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-215-188.vodafone.hu] has quit [Quit: ...] 19:02:24 p_l: Boost? Spring? Rails? 19:02:45 nyef pasted "Does this look good for lp#379472? (not yet tested)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95661 19:03:17 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:04:15 nyef: looks reasonable 19:04:38 I just wish I had something more principled for determining the correct order. 19:05:12 I get this I open slime from emacs: "SIGPIPE raised on process inferior-lisp; closed it" . this is how it should look? 19:05:36 I get this msg when I open slime from emacs: "SIGPIPE raised on process inferior-lisp; closed it" . this is how it should look? 19:06:40 splittist: maybe not Rails (there's way too much) the same regarding Spring or Boost - but people might be surprised what they can do with tools that they overlook commonly 19:06:48 splittist: also, it was my CL trojan horse ;-) 19:07:23 Axius: no, not usually. 19:07:52 trojan or hobby? I'd love c4 to be the #lisp in-house journal, but I guess gigamonkey and his family have to eat... 19:08:08 (insert emoticon) 19:08:14 It should open in interactiv mode? 19:09:59 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:11:47 splittist: I wouldn't go for exclusivity to Lisp, since I enjoy other languages, but making it popular enough and then showing support for various "rare" languages (quotes intended), like Lisp, Prolog, Erlang etc. would be good not only for lisp, but for programming in general 19:12:22 SML/NJ? 19:12:34 nyef: if someone writes about them, sure 19:13:03 If I ever get around to it, I might write even on hardware side of computing 19:13:13 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:13:23 (because of my interest in FPGAs and actually making my own hw) 19:14:10 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:14:33 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:14:34 I have come to the conclusion that I either missed or completely screwed up my window for getting interested in hardware hacking. 19:14:46 -!- nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@166.205.136.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:15:36 nyef: I got interested due to finding out about VHDL and Verilog, and due to my interest in retrocomputing. It kind of "opened my eyes" to both FPGAs and non-x86 architectures 19:15:58 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:16:28 -!- malsyned [~malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:19:30 <_deepfire> nyef, do you remember what was the cure wrt. -03, as, gcc and mingw? 19:19:35 tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:42 ... Nope. 19:20:00 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:11 I thought that you weren't supposed to use -O3 generally anyway? 19:20:21 <_deepfire> I'm trying to build 1.0.35.latest and failing again.. 19:20:34 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:20:37 Dodek [dodek@cl-187.waw-01.pl.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:48 Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:51 <_deepfire> nyef, I remember, we have been through this line of reasoning already :-) 19:21:02 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:21:15 -!- Dodek [dodek@cl-187.waw-01.pl.sixxs.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:21:15 Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 19:22:36 <_deepfire> I think you proposed something along the lines of 'export AS="gcc -S"' 19:22:53 Umm... That might have been something like it. 19:23:24 I have another proposed solution, but it doesn't build too cleanly yet and is x86-64-only for now. 19:24:03 http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/shortlog/refs/heads/no-x86oid-assem.S if you're wondering, though I'm not sure it'll end up in CVS. 19:24:11 litherp2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 19:26:44 -!- vng [~vng@123.20.110.161] has quit [Quit: vng] 19:27:52 -!- litherp2 [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:28:11 <_deepfire> Ok, should be 'export AS="gcc -c"' 19:28:53 <_deepfire> This way it makes all the way through the whole of src/runtime. 19:31:17 malsyned [~malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:46 ... Bwah? x86-64-arch.c, sigtrap_handler() has "if (single_stepping && (signal==SIGTRAP))". How would signal -not- be SIGTRAP there, other than the OSX/darwin damage? 19:32:58 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 19:33:14 Axius_ [~fd@92.82.70.194] has joined #lisp 19:33:19 <_deepfire> I seem to be hitting some kind of an ASDF screwup, whereby it would try to load SB-ROTATE-BYTE twice, and fail hard. 19:33:59 The main core compiled, ship it! :-P 19:35:31 litherp2 [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has joined #lisp 19:35:38 -!- Axius [~fd@109.97.56.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:36:41 -!- mathrick is now known as _mathrick 19:37:39 -!- litherp2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:38:16 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 19:38:19 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Quit: HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!] 19:38:43 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:39:36 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 19:39:51 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:42:04 *nyef* gets the sinking feeling that he's going to have to try and scare up an intel mac at some point this year and actually maintain the damned thing. 19:42:35 *Xach* is thinking of selling his intel mac! 19:42:50 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@164.245.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:42:53 konrad [~user@187.117.61.13] has joined #lisp 19:43:02 Oh? 19:43:29 -!- konrad is now known as konr 19:43:52 Well, to buy a bigger, faster, shinier intel mac. 19:43:56 Ah. 19:44:02 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-146-150-17.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:44:35 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:45:00 -!- konr [~user@187.117.61.13] has quit [Client Quit] 19:45:12 -!- rread [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:45:16 *nyef* is doing linux testing of the changes he's made to attempt to do something about bug 309067. 19:45:17 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-rxmjctpkdejspqrv] has joined #lisp 19:45:26 dys [~andreas@krlh-5f72f6d6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:35 i came close to buying a mac this week. Then i noticed the thinkpad with twice the ram and twice the disk was fully half the price. 19:45:42 konr [~user@187.117.61.13] has joined #lisp 19:45:44 Heh. 19:46:40 -!- konr` [~user@187.117.61.13] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:46:53 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:47:16 I suspect my next laptop won't be a mac, despite having used primarily macs for most of my life. Apple's business is becoming too distasteful for me. Closed source doesn't really bother me, but closed platform really does. 19:47:17 I'm still possibly getting a G5 soon. And I'm starting to realize that I may want to have it dual-boot OSX and Linux. 19:47:41 azathoth99 [~gschuette@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:27 Hrm... Out of ten confirmed high-priority bugs in SBCL, I have angles on two. 19:49:42 Well, three. 19:52:06 -!- adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-240-233.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:00:16 Snamich [~Snamich@173-29-27-178.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:44 -!- litherp2 [~chatzilla@72.8.31.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:02:11 -!- davazp [~user@83.46.0.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:02:35 HG` [~HG@xdslec231.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:03:30 If I have a variable defined using defvar and I change it in the source, how can I get it to update in the repl with the new changes? Recompiling just gives it the old value. 20:04:16 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has joined #lisp 20:04:33 Snamich: Use setf, or defparameter. 20:04:37 -!- Axius_ [~fd@92.82.70.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:04:48 I mean, (defvar *v* ...) (setf *v* ...) 20:05:09 Snamich: You should use defvar for parameters, and defparameter for variables. 20:05:30 Oh, okay, I thought it was the other way, thanks. 20:05:48 kuala [~00@pool-74-96-73-198.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:07 is lambda-calculus overrated? 20:06:14 totally 20:06:34 is that sarcasm or not? :p 20:06:41 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:06:49 yes 20:06:49 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:59 kuala: are nucleons overrated? 20:07:24 ok, where can I learn about the practicality of lambda-calculus? 20:07:30 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:07:54 kuala: well lambda-calculus has no practicality, only theoreticality. 20:08:05 kuala: the practicality of lambda-calculus is lisp and scheme. 20:08:17 pjb: haskell and company? 20:08:37 Not enough retrospective. :-) 20:08:47 MetalDust [~hi@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:18 where can I learn about the theoretically non-uselessness of lambda-calculus? 20:09:25 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:09:41 The usual sources. Wikipedia, google, etc. 20:09:55 I've tried that. 20:11:20 Sternmull [~kringel@p57AAC1CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:37 And what seems to be the problem? 20:12:02 books 20:12:06 they are cool 20:13:25 raison [~raison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 20:13:37 those pages have all sorts of operations for lambda things, but they don't say why it's not a trivial subject 20:14:48 Notice that the right answer to "What seems to be the problem?" is "Death.". 20:15:10 kuala: well, it's rather a trivial subject. 20:15:31 kuala: The first result is that it's equivalent to Turing Machines. 20:15:42 kuala: there's nothing more trivial than a Turing Machine. 20:16:12 pjb: what is the significance of it being equivalent to turing machines? 20:16:48 kuala: it means that you can express all the mathematical functions that are computable in this formalism. 20:17:07 pjb: does that make lambda-calculus useful? 20:17:14 it makes it a turing tarpit :) 20:17:20 as long as you have infinite memory if i am right 20:17:48 who has infinite memory? :p 20:17:48 also, lambda calculus is purely functional 20:17:57 kuala: it makes it useful because it's notably more expressive than Turing Machines. It is much easier to write functions in lambda calculus than as Turing Machines. 20:17:59 i dont :) 20:18:43 kuala: and if you like to judge the trees for their fruits, lambda-calculus gives lisp, Turing Machine gives C. 20:18:48 pjb: ok, so the advantage of lambda-calulus is so you don't have to code for turing machines anymore? 20:19:19 Yes. It's a formalism that is closer to usual mathematic functions than Turing Machines. 20:19:20 kuala: how many people have you seen who are coding for turing machine? 20:19:25 and where can i see that machine? 20:19:30 jdz: that's kind of my point 20:19:32 Brainfuck programmers? 20:19:37 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.14.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:41 -!- Sternmull [~kringel@p57AAC1CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:19:51 kuala: i kind of don't see your point 20:20:54 pjb: how is this formalism useful? 20:21:53 -!- smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:22:10 kuala: Examples of applications of lambda-calculus are LISP, and formal semantics. 20:22:19 kuala: how is mathematics useful? 20:22:44 jdz: most people use it to solve homework problems 20:22:54 kuala: how is that useful? 20:23:11 kuala: at the end of the day, wether something is considered useful or not depends to some degree on the one doing the considering. Lambda calculus & co provide a lot of understanding that has been used for a lot of things 20:23:17 jdz: good grades, good college, good job, good money, eat food 20:23:18 kuala: go to university, you'll get homework to solve using lambda calculus 20:23:22 and a lot of people find it useful 20:23:37 kuala: you have a very very limited worldview 20:24:15 prxq: I'm not asking so that people will tell me I don't know the answer to what I'm asking 20:24:25 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:24:47 nevermind this is getting nowhere 20:24:49 -!- kuala [~00@pool-74-96-73-198.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:24:52 kuala: in short, lambda calculus is mathematics 20:25:06 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 20:25:59 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:25 i suppose he expected an answer on the lines of 'oh, it's handy for changing tires' or something. 20:28:20 "Would you like some S with that K, sir?" 20:28:47 "You can supersize that to I for 65¢" 20:29:54 do you want Y's with that? 20:31:10 ok, enough with the Y's cracks 20:32:36 Fuble [~user@173-29-27-178.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:00 who's Y anyway? 20:34:01 -!- Fuble [~user@173-29-27-178.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:34:55 stassats: it's the little guy who hides behind CL:LABELS. 20:35:46 y's on first? 20:37:43 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@173-29-27-178.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 20:38:07 -!- mega1 [~quassel@53d828c5.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:39:39 nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@adsl-63-196-8-147.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:03 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:08 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:28 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 20:45:01 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:47:23 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:39 drewc: vng and maus are still waiting for accounts on cl.net. Do you know whether there's a problem? 20:48:34 beach: i haven't personally looked at the queue in a few days, and i guess nobody else has either. 20:48:45 I'll get to it today :) 20:49:17 drewc: OK, no problem. Just wondering whether there was something we need to do. 20:49:45 hi beach 20:49:56 hello prxq 20:51:33 -!- somecodehere [~ingvar@75.186.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:12 beach: will you be in hcmc next week? :-) 20:52:23 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslec231.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:52:31 prxq: Nope, but Marie will be there. 20:52:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:52:55 prxq: I think she is at the Victoria Hotel. 20:53:16 i'll be at an an 20:53:31 -!- konr [~user@187.117.61.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:43 prxq: You should look her up and go out to dinner with her. 20:54:33 pickles [~paul@d47-69-2-54.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:01 beach: how can I find her? 20:55:14 email? :-) 20:56:19 prxq: Victoria is a block or two from ho con rua (turtle or tortois place) her name is Marie Beurton. 20:56:33 prxq: Sure, email beurton at labri.fr 20:56:49 moah [~gnu@dslb-188-101-024-241.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:02 prxq: http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_Con_Rùa 20:59:35 -!- brandonedens [~brandon@wsip-70-184-10-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:59:38 prxq: The hotel is two blocks south-west of there. 20:59:47 brandonedens [~brandon@wsip-70-184-10-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:24 "Lisp : un nouveau langage de programmation !!!" 21:00:50 i'll contact her. thanks beach :-) 21:01:10 "nouveau"? :P 21:01:15 nvoorhies_ [~nvoorhies@166.205.136.41] has joined #lisp 21:01:25 I guess compared to FORTRAN, maybe... 21:01:44 sykopomp: depending on where you dwell, its concepts are nothing short of utterly revolutionary 21:02:03 what's left that's revolutionary? Macros? 21:02:18 CLOS? 21:02:37 "the future. Since 1986" 21:03:00 sykopomp: all of it, basically. Of course not for those who already know that stuff 21:03:25 s/1986/1958/ 21:03:26 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:03:42 I guess there's still a couple of stragglers here and there that haven't already been absorbed into the 'mainstream' 21:03:49 sykopomp: I can reasonably say that Lisp would be "innovative" or "revolutionary" for quite a lot of people who are now taking CS courses... 21:04:02 I don't think there's any high-performance, compilable dynamic language out there yet? 21:04:25 (in the mainstream) 21:04:26 Common LIsp 21:04:37 -!- nvoorhies [~nvoorhies@adsl-63-196-8-147.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:04:42 stassats: other than CL. 21:04:50 Scheme 21:04:52 sebyte [~sebyte@213.229.74.8] has joined #lisp 21:04:57 sykopomp: the ones that wouldn't find it as such, already had to learn some "unusual" concepts that might be "optional" in other languages or not exist at all, or they might be used to languages that get used less than Java or C++ :P 21:05:05 sykopomp: java is pretty much dynamically typed. 21:05:05 stassats: ...and Scheme, but urrite. 21:05:36 pkhuong: it's not a dynamic language. It's statically-compiled into bytecode. The process is different. 21:05:57 you can write a repl for C if you want 21:06:01 does C count? 21:06:02 you get to load bytecode in at runtime. 21:06:02 to me it sounds better to sell lisp as "nouveau and powerful" to anybody than as "powerful but ignored". just let them find out themselves that its nothing new. 21:06:12 pkhuong: you don't program in the bytecodes. 21:06:30 I don't call COMPILE or EVAL at runtime. 21:07:12 no, but you develop in a running image that you pass _readable_ code to. 21:07:20 qamikaz [~alper@85.107.70.129] has joined #lisp 21:07:36 prxq: http://www.virtualtourist.com/hotels/Asia/Vietnam/Thanh_Pho_Ho_Chi_Minh/Ho_Chi_Minh_City-1470720/Hotels_and_Accommodations-Ho_Chi_Minh_City-Victory_Hotel-BR-1.html I think that's it. 21:07:38 or at least, ideally you do. 21:07:39 I have javac when developing. 21:08:24 beach: thanks. I'll drop her an email. 21:08:36 this equivalence has really helped on the google AI challenge 21:08:52 prxq: [the map on that site is wrong though] 21:08:58 Xach: clearly the issue here is whether java is "dynamic". 21:09:08 yet somehow, I don't do $ emacs file.lisp, $ sbcl --eval (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die ....), $ sbcl 21:09:22 sykopomp: nobody would do that, what with buildapp around! 21:09:47 sykopomp: I hear people use IDEs for java too. 21:10:11 pkhuong: in which case they save their file, push a button, which recompiles everything and reruns the code from the beginning. 21:10:25 how many people leave a running Java image, and make incremental changes right in it, while the image runs? 21:10:26 ...wit a REPL. 21:10:28 sykopomp: not necessarily 21:10:28 I have not heard of such a thing. 21:10:42 not that it's impossible 21:11:22 if compilation time is negligible there's no difference 21:11:29 it's not impossible for pylang either, but so many pylang devs seem to insist on run, edit, rerun cycles regardless, and somehow feel that's a hell of a lot better than compilation cycles. 21:11:37 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:38 java IDEs these days compile/load the classes user edits in background. 21:11:46 stassats: if you have to restart your application to retest it, there's a difference :) 21:11:47 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 21:12:01 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 21:12:12 jdz: I thought there was some limitation on redefining existing classes in the JVM? 21:12:56 sykopomp: there most certainly are; that does not stop people to create things like Clojure and stuff. 21:13:09 jdz: Clojure is not Java. 21:13:17 orly? 21:13:22 yarly 21:13:27 no wai! 21:13:28 and it's not Lisp 21:13:32 indeed. 21:13:36 what does the J in JVM stand for? 21:13:39 what's not java in clojure? 21:13:53 Hi all, newbie macro question - (defmacro foo (f) (funcall f "bar")) => FOO, (defun baz (arg) arg) => BAZ, (foo baz) => "bar", all fine, but (foo (lambda (arg) arg)) => ERROR and (foo #'(lambda (arg) arg)) => ERROR. Is there a way to pass anonymous functions to a macro? 21:14:10 drewc: J, APL's descendant 21:14:16 stassats: :P 21:14:27 sebyte: macros manipulate s-expressions, not runtime values. 21:14:55 jdz: what's not Java in ABCL? 21:15:12 how does running on the same platform suddenly turn a language into the equivalent of another? 21:15:14 sykopomp: the object model for one. 21:15:16 sykopomp: ABCL has no "j" in its name 21:15:22 I guess my SBCL install is identical to GCC 21:15:33 Depends on how much is reimplented. 21:15:36 sykopomp: as far as i know ABCL is written in java. have not looked at the source. 21:15:37 and there's no symbol in CL which starts with j 21:16:38 sykopomp: we might be conflating things here (like java/jvm) 21:16:46 jdz: I'm talking about Java the language :) 21:16:47 but that's besides the point 21:17:27 well, CL the language does not even have a REPL, does it? 21:17:49 let's at least talk about what actually happens. 21:18:23 jdz: dunno if the standard specifically specifies a repl, but it certainly specifies that a repl probably exists. 21:18:29 clhs 25.1.1 21:18:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/25_aa.htm 21:18:31 jdz: it does: (loop (print (eval (read)))) 21:18:49 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 21:19:11 drewc: thanks :P 21:19:18 jdz: it doesn't define GC, though :) 21:19:41 it is specified that there is usually a repl, and that if there is one it might set various variables for you. 21:19:44 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] has joined #lisp 21:19:53 sykopomp: well, that REPL can do compile/load cycle behind the scenes 21:19:55 Haskell can be pretty close too. 21:20:08 jdz: so? 21:20:22 sykopomp: so it's no different than java? 21:20:26 I haven't experienced a similar workflow with Java. 21:20:27 in this sense 21:20:37 I don't care about what actually happens. 21:20:42 I care about what the experience is like. 21:20:54 there is a java repl, too. i have actually used one looooong time ago. 21:20:56 if you want to wank, then everything that runs on your computer, even Ruby, is compiled. 21:21:10 sykopomp: right,.. what actually happens, not what could or is guaranteed to be possible. 21:22:09 oh, btw, an answer to the original question: javascript 21:22:21 sykopomp: no, everything is interpreted! 21:22:23 which original question? 21:22:35 stassats: lies. Everything is _compiled_! 21:22:42 -!- milanj [~milan@cable-89-216-113-6.static.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:22:54 I don't think there's any high-performance, compilable dynamic language out there yet? 21:23:09 JavaScript is high-performance and nicely compilable? 21:23:11 everything is assembler, folks. The rest is just an illusion 21:23:18 sykopomp: yes, nowadays it is. 21:23:22 is it? 21:23:25 yes it is 21:23:25 sykopomp: sure. V8, tracemonkey... Or Lua with LuaJIT 21:23:31 sykopomp: yes, if anything CL is behind the times 21:23:52 I guess V8 is nice, yeah :P 21:24:03 (with regards to compiler technology, specifically JIT's) 21:24:42 -!- nvoorhies_ [~nvoorhies@166.205.136.41] has quit [Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info] 21:25:00 well, port a lisp to one of those nice virtual machines that do JIT & co, and that's it. 21:25:27 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:25:48 prxq: joe marshall is trying to understand how best to structure interpreters on JITed platforms. 21:26:05 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:26:08 pkhuong: more power to him! 21:26:13 -!- brandonedens [~brandon@wsip-70-184-10-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:27:41 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:28:10 now, why is jit useful? in what circumstances is it a killer feature? 21:28:49 pkhuong: thanks 21:28:53 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-195-25.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:18 -!- sebyte [~sebyte@213.229.74.8] has quit [Quit: macros] 21:29:32 different target platforms? 21:29:56 i'd love if my linux .fasls would load in OS X :) 21:30:18 that's only one point 21:30:25 load .lisps 21:30:27 another is dynamic recompilation 21:30:37 jit is supposedly useful for dynamic languages where the type information is difficult to get at compile time 21:30:42 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-99-164-42-2.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:31:32 jdz: would that not kind of ruin the point of .fasls? 21:31:33 s-expressions, the ultimate bytecode 21:31:44 i'm completely clueless about CLOS implementations, but i gues JIT would come in handy for it. 21:31:55 drewc: what would ruin? 21:32:30 jdz: fasls that load on osx and linux... seems to me like fasls are slow enough already without adding another layer 21:32:55 drewc: what's faster than fasls? 21:33:12 images 21:33:16 jdz: executables 21:33:17 tltstc` [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:27 or just images, yes. 21:33:39 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:33:47 adeht [~death@bzq-84-110-240-127.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:53 stassats, yes - I think a kernel Lisp would be a very good virtual machine. After all the first thing JVMs do is decompile the bytecode. 21:34:29 -!- tltstc [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:34:38 well, the linking part is besides my point 21:34:41 or actually fast fasls 21:34:45 rather than sbcl slols 21:34:52 slols :) 21:34:53 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:08 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:28 sb-heapdump was fast 21:36:11 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-66-2-187.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:37:10 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:12 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-66-2-187.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:47 addled [~addled@80.27.103.22] has joined #lisp 21:38:05 -!- addled [~addled@80.27.103.22] has quit [Client Quit] 21:44:01 -!- qamikaz [~alper@85.107.70.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:44:17 qamikaz [~alper@85.107.70.129] has joined #lisp 21:44:22 francogrex [~user@81.244.34.63] has joined #lisp 21:46:11 -!- qamikaz [~alper@85.107.70.129] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:46:23 qamikaz [~alper@85.107.70.129] has joined #lisp 21:49:01 -!- jdz [~jdz@84.237.142.223] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:50:01 You know, somewhere around I have the start of an idea for being able to dump faster-loading fasls, but shelved it because it seemed to require some prep work that I didn't know how to do. 21:50:27 lol 21:50:30 doh! 21:52:29 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:53:05 In retrospect, however, it might be doable without said prep work... and also might be doable as a separate application that essentially re-binds a fasl into a faster-loading format. 21:53:40 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has joined #lisp 21:54:22 Fare: speaking of a kernel lisp and joe marshall, have you read about 21:54:28 http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html <---- this? 21:54:39 -!- prxq [~mommer@g228072066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: good night] 21:54:55 (i found that through the scheme working group archives which i found through joe's blog) 21:55:29 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:42 Heh. Revised^-1 Report. 21:56:33 Snamich [~Snamich@32.131.63.156] has joined #lisp 21:58:14 cool stuff, i really like the $foo convention for special forms / syntax operators 21:59:58 he's got the intersting pov that the lambda calculus is fexprs, not LAMBDA 22:00:16 Okay, I vaguely remember something about this from a couple months ago. 22:00:19 -!- tltstc` [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:00:33 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:00:41 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.143] has joined #lisp 22:00:52 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:54 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-137-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:58 i think it's much cooler that K-lambda anyway, which is what got me looking into efforts of this sort 22:01:14 -!- francogrex [~user@81.244.34.63] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:42 tltstc` [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:03 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.7] has joined #lisp 22:02:20 Note to self: Add proof-carrying-code and the JVM and CLR security models to the to-investigate list. 22:03:13 *nyef* screams. 22:03:30 The handler diesn't apply if we're using the mach exception handler?!? 22:04:15 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-81-42.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 22:04:30 And, for that matter, why is this all conditions #+darwin instead of #+use-ud2-trap ? 22:05:50 <_deepfire> How does one set default external format for compile-file, when one does not control its invocations? 22:06:22 _deepfire: The outermost applicable place is the LOCALE environment variable... Or was it LANG? Something like that. 22:06:36 Then there's a somthingorother-default-external-format*, if memory serves. 22:06:37 <_deepfire> nyef, ...on win32 22:06:37 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:41 _deepfire: by changing default external format? 22:07:04 <_deepfire> stassats, any suggestions? 22:07:28 <_deepfire> I just apropossed, but I might have been too ignorant. 22:07:31 suggestions about what? 22:07:40 about chaining default format? 22:07:44 <_deepfire> yeah 22:07:44 sb-impl::*default-external-format* 22:08:25 <_deepfire> Hmm, and how could I have missed that? 22:08:29 <_deepfire> stassats, thanks! 22:09:07 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:11:52 You are incorrect. 22:11:58 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 22:11:58 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 22:11:58 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:12:26 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:40 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:12:41 -!- splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: 2late] 22:13:15 So, anyone out there have an x86-64 OSX system and willing to test an SBCL patch for me? 22:13:39 not me 22:14:16 nyef: sure. 22:14:17 nyef: you mean in-vm security? 22:15:15 nyef pasted "Possible fix for x86-64/darwin third of lp#309067" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95675 22:15:33 p_l: I might. I'm not sure, though. 22:16:03 pkhuong: I'm just building this now on linux to see if it still builds and passes tests there. 22:16:23 without threads I assume. 22:16:32 It's not threadsafe in the first place. 22:16:37 Never was. 22:17:03 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:17:07 I believe that the test case is actively commented-out on darwin targets. 22:17:21 smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:35 nyef: any possibility for something alike to .NETs AppDomains? It would mesh well with bringing security in 22:17:45 But if this works it should be fairly trivial to backport to x86. 22:18:31 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:56 p_l: Right now I don't really have a use-case, just an awareness that I'm missing a chunk of knowledge that might be applicable to some of the... more vague things I've been working with. 22:19:35 .I should have slammed this. Oh well. 22:20:14 ... SLAM actually works on OSX? 22:20:21 yeah. 22:20:33 Nice. ISTR hearing that it didn't at some point. 22:21:35 nyef: should I define CANNOT_GET_TO_SINGLE_STEP_FLAG? 22:21:48 ... either way, I think. 22:22:05 Though some part of me is thinking "god help you if you take a GC with that build option enabled". 22:22:42 I'd default to not defining it and seeing if that's sufficient. 22:22:52 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 22:24:30 fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:42 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:24:56 -!- fade is now known as Fade 22:25:14 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:20 ... And the PPC version of the problems is exacerbated by us not using a mach exception handler, isn't it? 22:25:22 Ugh. 22:26:09 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE0015e9d40d4f-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:28:50 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@2620:0:1003:1005:21a:a0ff:fe13:f0c0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:00 Hrm... Looks good on linux. 22:32:27 bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:28 built fine. step.impure.lisp is also fine. 22:32:50 I'll run the remainder later 22:33:08 What about the commented-out test case for precisely this case? 22:34:24 where? 22:34:45 drewc, I've been trying to get jshutt to speak at the BLM for months. He says he's not ready to speak. 22:34:53 BTW, looking for a speaker for March. 22:35:14 Fare: i would like to lightning talk 22:35:27 Xach: you're in, just send me an email... 22:35:55 with your name (haha), title, and one sentence for the topic. 22:36:02 -!- smanek [~smanek@rrcs-24-213-164-136.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:38:18 -!- tltstc` [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:36 pkhuong: debug.impure.lisp, line 396 or so, something about bug 379. 22:39:07 Two cases. 22:39:07 milanj [~milan@91.148.66.154] has joined #lisp 22:39:39 tltstc` [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:26 Looks like I screwed up the nesting on the arguments to DO on that pack.lisp change, but once that's sorted it appears to work. 22:43:54 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:16 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 22:45:48 PuffTheMagic_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 22:49:13 -!- bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: bew] 22:50:47 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:18 -!- azathoth99 is now known as hastur99 22:51:30 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7553b7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:25 -!- hastur99 is now known as azathoth99 22:53:18 Fare: who's jshutt ? 22:54:00 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:54:09 Snamich_ [~Snamich@32.133.161.107] has joined #lisp 22:54:36 bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:42 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:54:46 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@32.131.63.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:54:46 -!- Snamich_ is now known as Snamich 22:54:47 -!- TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:00 -!- bew [~bew@cpc2-dals16-2-0-cust285.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:25 -!- tltstc` [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: tltstc`] 22:57:49 tltstc` [~tltstc@cpe-76-90-95-39.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:30 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 23:03:35 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:04:17 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:21 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:32 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:08:24 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:08:42 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.69.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:08:46 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:13 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:09:14 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:09:46 foolish question: how do I force SBCL to build 64-bit on MacOSX? follow-up: is this a bad idea? 23:10:08 I thought it did that by default these days 23:10:24 If it doesn't, try SBCL_ARCH=x86-64 ./make.sh 23:10:31 if not, SBCL_ARCH=x86_64 sh make.sh (you might need to twiddle with gcc options too) 23:10:54 nyef, jsnell: thanks! 23:11:33 you two seem to disagree on hyphen versus underscore (I know I have run myself on shoals that way in the past....) 23:12:03 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 23:12:21 Mmm... I'm more likely to want to force a 32-bit build, TBH. 23:12:34 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:13:03 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 23:13:13 Hyphen seems to be it... 23:13:20 cmm- [~cmm@109.67.26.179] has joined #lisp 23:13:52 nyef: why would you want to force 32-bit? 23:13:57 athlon [~user@193-196-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:59 Just for testing? 23:14:04 Mainly for testing, yes. 23:14:09 -!- tbourdon [~tbourdon@wsip-72-215-204-133.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:14:31 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:14:31 When i'am try to start slime, it's says that "Spawning child process: invalid argument" 23:14:32 Some of what I do is nasty low-level x86oid hacking, and we like to keep both backends in sync. 23:14:54 What's i'am doing wrong? 23:15:04 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:17 hm. I set that environment variable, and make.sh seems to have set it right back! ;-) 23:15:29 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-66-2-187.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:16:42 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 23:16:43 athlon: it's unclear, because you haven't told what you're doing 23:16:48 rpg pasted "output of make.sh" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95678 23:17:18 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:41 you didn't type what we asked you to type :-) 23:19:02 either have it all on one line, or export the variable 23:19:05 Aha! I see what's wrong --- make.sh assumes that /usr/sbin will be in your path... 23:19:30 yah know, port install sbcl works pretty well :) 23:19:31 jsnell: that's c shell. SETENV is the same as export. You young whippersnapper! 23:19:53 *rpg* is way older than bash... 23:20:02 declare -x! 23:20:34 bash moves air in both directions: both sucking and blowing. 23:21:16 jmbr [~jmbr@164.245.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:21:27 jsnell: seriously --- I'm looking at make-config, does this try to have SBCL_ARCH shadow the guessed arch? sbcl_arch=${SBCL_ARCH:-$guessed_sbcl_arch} 23:21:37 the guessing seems to happen whether or not SBCL_ARCH is set. 23:22:40 Adding /usr/sbin to my path makes sbcl (correctly) guess x86-64.... 23:22:57 yes, that should override the guessed arch 23:23:02 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:40 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 23:24:51 ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.66.216] has joined #lisp 23:25:06 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.7] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 23:26:01 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:26:19 i add this to .emacs 23:26:23 (add-to-list 'load-path "c:/Program Files (x86)/emacs-23.1/lisp/slime/") ; your SLIME directory 23:26:23 (setq inferior-lisp-program "c:/Program Files (x86)/clisp-2.48/clisp.exe") ; your Lisp system 23:26:23 (require 'slime) 23:26:23 (slime-setup) 23:26:26 23:26:31 jsnell: Thanks. I was always taught that you should leave /usr/sbin off the path unless you are sys-adminning (which I mostly try not to do). Would it be a good idea to mod the build script to try /usr/sbin if you sysctl isn't found? 23:26:46 and try to run slime after emacs starts 23:28:08 clhs the 23:28:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm 23:28:11 I use m-x slime to start 23:28:32 rpg: or just hardcode the path (I assume the program always live in the same place on OS X) 23:29:17 jsnell: Yes, it comes from Apple. it should always be there. 23:30:04 kwinz3 [~kwinz@d86-32-109-108.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 23:31:06 clhs declare 23:31:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm 23:31:51 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:32:04 clhs locally 23:32:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_locall.htm 23:36:09 athlon: that has something to do with spaces in filenames 23:36:20 ... WTF? (the (signed-byte 32) -2147483649) doesn't error where I want it to? 23:36:41 Okay, how do we make this happen? 23:36:53 -!- athlon [~user@193-196-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:38:56 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:39:11 nyef: using check-type instead of the. 23:40:13 Mmm... There's something wierd about the default policy, this looks like it should already be throwing an error if declarations are assertions. 23:40:18 -!- milanj [~milan@91.148.66.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:42:59 And it -still- doesn't error out, even with check-type. 23:43:20 Then there's definitively a problem. 23:43:35 Yeah. 'course it might be upstream from the place I'm trying to tweak. 23:44:45 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:12 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:45:12 blarg [~blarg@cpe-98-149-136-173.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:43 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:19 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:47:28 billstclair [~billstcla@p-216-227-81-118.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:28 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-216-227-81-118.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:47:28 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:47:43 necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:50:58 -!- blarg [~blarg@cpe-98-149-136-173.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:53:06 -!- j4k0b [~j4k0b@1503024517.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:53:28 *wgl* checks 23:53:43 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:03 -!- Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:37 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp