00:00:59 -!- ziga [~user@BSN-143-158-189.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:16 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.43] has quit [Quit: quittin early!] 00:10:01 slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:44 -!- milanj [~milan@109.93.197.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:12:46 limits/quotas/chroot 00:13:39 nus: quotas ?? 00:15:00 -!- slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:15:31 fs quotas 00:17:35 also, throw in capabilities for a good mix, too (-: 00:17:57 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@64.134.235.192] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 00:18:06 hmmm 00:19:52 -!- dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:20:53 fatblued1ck [~Dinair@cust-65-98-240-254.static.o1.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:55 is this going to be stictly exec daemon or threads are involved too? 00:21:00 strictly* 00:21:05 what threads ? 00:21:09 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229082194.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 00:21:14 server-side 00:21:16 dfox [~dfox@rei.ipv6.dfox.org] has joined #lisp 00:21:27 what for ? 00:22:10 dunno, lightweightness? 00:22:58 nus: I don't understand you 00:23:30 eee [~e@209.60.213.210] has joined #lisp 00:23:33 hi 00:23:40 anyone know newlisp? 00:24:02 or did I just say something blasphemous 00:24:18 generally people talk about common lisp here 00:25:29 I can understand that 00:25:42 eee: forget about newlisp. Concentrate on a real lisp, such as Common Lisp. 00:25:53 but if anyone has newlisp knowledge I'd love some help understanding something 00:25:54 eee: even Clojure or Scheme would be admited. 00:26:36 sorry. didn't mean to start a language war 00:26:57 or ignite one 00:27:02 -!- eee [~e@209.60.213.210] has quit [Client Quit] 00:27:16 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:50 is it possible to get a list of all cliki packages without having to crawl cliki? 00:29:06 fusss: 'fraid not 00:29:14 There's one automatically obtained on cliki.net/ADSF-Install 00:29:17 I think it's easier to find packages through cl-user.net 00:29:39 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-40-246.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:29:55 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:20 fusss: you may insert such a list in your own cliki page with :(search :term (package)) 00:31:04 hmmm 00:32:19 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:11 -!- mejja [~user@c-52b1e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Hockey!] 00:42:08 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:42:11 fe[nl]ix, don't you want to make integers also length + uint_8_t[] ? 00:42:52 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-40-246.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:52 maybe you want to layer that on top of cl-proto or some such thing. 00:44:04 Fare: why would I do that ? 00:44:36 extensibility / future-proofing 00:44:49 inheriting-fd: from the server? 00:44:56 from the client 00:44:57 or from the client via sendmsg ? 00:45:31 yes 00:46:04 so this wire protocol is what you send in a sendmsg ? 00:46:20 please include a constant magic number at the start of the request, so it's upgradable :) 00:47:06 what do you mean by upgradable ? 00:47:40 I mean that if an old client connects to the server, and there is no way to distinguish protocol version, hilarity may ensue 00:48:00 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:09 ok 00:48:18 should we be able to set the signal mask on the child? 00:48:30 given that this is inspired by IMAP, I might as well do that 00:48:31 :D 00:48:33 might be safer 00:49:10 that would be another message 00:49:11 it addition to setpgrp you might have to have tcsetpgrp, too. Or not. 00:49:58 I'm trying to replicate posix_spawn, basically 00:50:08 what about doing chroot kind of things, with mounts, too ? meh... 00:50:17 yes, I get that. 00:50:21 and that's great 00:50:29 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:50:37 do you use sigfd's to process the children in the event-loop? 00:50:50 that is starting to become a little too sophisticated 00:50:57 not yet, I haven't gotten that far 00:52:37 I'd like to keep myself within the POSIXly approved area 00:52:42 at least for the start 00:52:59 nus proposed adding a message for setting capabilities 00:53:05 but AFAIK those are Linux-only 00:53:12 -!- fusss [~kumi@li63-187.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:53:33 cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has joined #lisp 00:55:33 is that about sending n messages, or sending one message with a list of instructions in a fork DSL ? 00:56:16 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@122.167.83.196] has joined #lisp 00:56:18 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@122.167.83.196] has left #lisp 00:57:01 Fare: basically, it should work like this: client sends message, daemon receives and parses all messages 00:57:12 upon EXECUTE, forks and execs 00:57:22 transaction-like 00:58:06 which is why you want to put all the things, including platform-specific extensions, as part of the same message/transaction. 00:58:20 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:59:22 if each "instruction" (e.g. cd, etc.) has its own identifying number, then the protocol is naturally extensible. 00:59:34 Maybe use the rucksack protocol for messages? 01:00:03 Dare I ask what you're discussing? 01:00:08 Fare: all messages take an ID, which would be the transaction 01:00:12 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@122.167.83.196] has joined #lisp 01:00:21 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@122.167.83.196] has left #lisp 01:00:39 nyef: http://common-lisp.net/~sionescu/PROTOCOL 01:01:30 fe[nl]ix: Add in something for ptrace(2) support? 01:01:50 what would you have in mind ? 01:02:06 nyef, excellent! 01:03:28 fe[nl]ix: Basically, add the basic control methods for stopping and restarting a process under ptrace, obtaining stop events and reasons, access to process memory and thread register spaces, etc. 01:03:29 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-118-219.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:37 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-118-219.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:52 whoa 01:04:05 hold your horses 01:04:27 does that need to be done inside the exec daemon ? 01:04:32 can't the CL client do it ? 01:05:01 I don't know. Which process ends up being the parent? 01:05:25 the daemon 01:05:32 Then the daemon has to do it. 01:05:38 ehrm, why we want another rexecd, again? what were the usecases? 01:06:08 is there already one such project? 01:06:10 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Quit: Odin-] 01:06:12 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@122.167.83.196] has joined #lisp 01:06:15 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@122.167.83.196] has left #lisp 01:06:15 ptrace only operates on a child process of the caller, except for PTRACE_ATTACH, which causes the target process to -become- a child of the caller. 01:06:16 I couldn't find one 01:06:23 nyef, fe[nl]ix -- I think these are all valid extensions to the basic protocol 01:06:53 the protocol should read the instructions, and bork with an error message if any instruction is not supported. 01:07:14 Have a QueryExtension operation, then? 01:07:19 rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:32 (And a ListExtensions operation?) 01:08:03 the message starts with the protocol version, and each instruction is guaranteed unique in this version (some may be added or declared obsolete, but numbers won't be recycled). 01:08:04 -!- cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838]] 01:08:47 hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-58-45.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:06 cool, maybe I just hack rexecd 01:09:36 *could 01:09:36 billstclai [~billstcla@dsl-205-231-150-219.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:24 hadronzoo__ [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-57-133.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:58 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-118-219.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:11:02 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-ponfroyqetclqarh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:11:02 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 01:11:06 what would QueryExtension do ? 01:11:35 I suppose you'd send a list of instructions, it would bork at the first that's not understood. 01:11:41 Given an extension name (a string) indicate if said extension exists, and possibly yield some indication of where its encoding space is. 01:12:00 encoding space ? 01:12:02 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:12:03 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-66-179.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:18 Or are the requests all identified by strings on the wire? 01:13:05 I was thinking of using strings actually 01:13:18 I suppose that works, then. 01:13:19 -!- hadronzoo_ [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-58-45.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:13:24 but integers is better 01:13:33 -!- konr [~user@189.0.24.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:33 the less C code I have to write, the better 01:14:12 fe[nl]ix: given that you use multiple messages to define properties of the process to be executed, it would likely be a good idea to have a message to say "nope, I'm not going to execute this after all" 01:14:55 fe[nl]ix, see frobork.c in philip-jose and fork.lisp 01:14:57 that would be the ERROR Reply 01:15:15 fe[nl]ix: it's not a reply 01:15:23 fe[nl]ix: more like cancellation 01:15:25 -!- hadronzoo__ [~hadronzoo@adsl-209-30-57-133.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:15:46 nyef: one way would be to execute messages one by one and have it return EUNSUPPORTED in case it's a command the server doesn't know 01:15:55 or do a protocol negotiation at start 01:16:04 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:16:13 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:31 if there's a final instruction "abort", then you'd send a message, see if it comes back because of the abort or one of the earlier instructions. 01:17:59 heh, ok, so session or datagram? atomary or not? 01:18:01 also, if each and every message has to get an OK/ERROR response it looks quite wasteful 01:18:21 quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1177684015.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:19:13 nus: you mean stream ? 01:20:05 adeht, how do you otherwise handle errors reliably? 01:20:24 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:30 nus: obviously, datagram. One message. Unix domain. 01:21:54 Fare: OTOH, the obvious advantage of a stream is that a transaction == an AF_LOCAL, SOCK_STREAM connection 01:22:41 Fare: for example you can have a batch mode where you send a bunch of messages and query for response 01:23:08 sendmsg allows you to send FDs - can you do that in stream mode? 01:23:39 darn 01:23:49 you're right, it's not possible 01:23:53 on Linux, at least 01:23:59 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:21 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 01:29:28 nus: any idea where I can download the sources of rexecd from ? 01:30:24 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 01:30:54 fe[nl]ix: rexec looks like a very simplistic protocol 01:31:11 dnolen_ [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:56 lol, it's called netkit-rsh on Linux 01:32:10 brandonedens [~brandon@pool-96-253-61-205.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:52 adeht: still, it should have some basic infrastructure 01:34:58 which is more than what I have now 01:35:12 rsh is a protocol from back in the days when people trusted the internet to not be malicious 01:35:16 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:35:16 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 01:35:56 nowadays it uses krb5 01:36:12 fe[nl]ix: I'm not sure a UNIXy basic infrastructure is much of an advantage over what you got right now ;) 01:36:28 nus: does it also use SSL? 01:36:36 fe[nl]ix, perhaps this could help http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/cmd/cmd-inet/usr.sbin/in.rexecd.c 01:37:53 OMGs, that's ugly 01:38:01 Fare, haven't seen such a one. 01:38:05 -!- fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:38:47 Shouldn't an implementation be responsible for a decent run-program? 01:39:24 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h80n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:40 rme: if you can convince all implementations to share the same, yes 01:40:02 -!- fatblued1ck [~Dinair@cust-65-98-240-254.static.o1.com] has left #lisp 01:40:42 frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 01:42:09 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:44:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 01:45:18 nus: it's called SSH 01:45:37 :D 01:46:00 Fare, well, you know the sun' stance, krb5 and ipsec. 01:47:04 rme: all CL implementations have kind of decent a run-program, but they all fall short of what we want to be able to do 01:47:37 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:45 fe[nl]ix: also, since you mentioned cl-proto.. do you know of any comparison of protocol buffers and asn.1 that goes beyond the shallow simple/complex distinction? 01:48:58 adeht: Fare was the one who mentioned it 01:49:00 :D 01:49:13 heh yeah, meant Fare ;) 01:49:21 adeht: I have no idea 01:50:00 cl-proto also has some idea of versioning 01:50:12 Fare: asn.1 has that 01:50:20 I'm trying hard not to have to use ASN.1 or similia 01:50:24 asn.1 is more like the turing-complete "we'll compromise on nothing but simplicity" approach 01:56:49 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 01:58:20 (I mean besides the obvious choice of One True Transfer Syntax for protobufs) 01:59:39 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 01:59:55 anyone here use Clojure? 02:00:12 i guess more people use clojure in #clojure 02:00:25 :( 02:00:31 I looked for such a comparison the other day.. all I found was some people bitching about NIH, and one of the protobufs devs claiming ignorance about ASN.1 (then resorting to the It's Simpler argument) 02:00:46 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:00:57 asn.1 is intimidating indeed 02:00:58 I asked in here because i wanted the perspective of someone familiar with Common Lisp 02:01:12 is there a complete asn.1 compiler for CL? 02:01:16 ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:39 necroforest, try to distill a Lisp question from your Clojure one (-: 02:01:41 Fare: I dunno about completeness 02:02:07 Fare: there is one, don't know how complete 02:02:28 yeah, i guess i left that part out... the actual question.. heh 02:02:38 i just wanted to know how "lispy" clojure felt 02:02:52 non-lispy. next question. 02:02:56 i looked at the syntax and it looked like it tried to mash a lot of java-isms into it 02:03:04 i only had one question :( 02:03:20 lispy enough to a lot of people I know and respect 02:03:24 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-24-104.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:03:31 not common lispy, for sure 02:07:43 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:51 necroforest, given you have to deal with a jvm in day-to-day workflow, it'd be a breeze. 02:08:31 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 02:10:57 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 02:13:11 bigjust1 [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:06 Okay, I think I'm done for tonight. 02:14:08 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-40-246.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:16:25 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:17:01 -!- splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [] 02:17:05 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:17:26 -!- rikjasnon [~hell@81.172.44.74.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:19:59 Fare: cl-snmp includes things along those lines. 02:20:11 yes, that's what cliki told me 02:22:33 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:08 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:32 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 02:25:37 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:29:20 rikjasnon [~hell@81.172.44.74.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:26 konr [~user@189.96.218.230] has joined #lisp 02:33:16 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.14.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:33:20 -!- rread [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:26 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-ppyemwaiokmwjumn] has joined #lisp 02:36:29 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has left #lisp 02:37:11 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:39:11 dnolen_ [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:27 -!- saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 02:40:05 -!- dnolen_ [~dnolen@pool-70-19-64-12.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:40:28 i've got a lisp program i really dont' want to rewrite... its overflowing heap. can i just adjust the heap size? 02:40:38 Implementation defined. 02:41:00 sbcl 02:41:35 enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:11 really, i'll be in slime and call my expensive function once. the second time it bombs. 02:42:20 maybe there's a way to free the heap between 02:42:38 The easiest way to do it would be to switch to a 64-bit processor with a lot of RAM, and to run your program on a 64-bit implementation. 02:43:06 Slime keeps the output around (like *, **, and *** but even more). 02:43:27 Be sure to avoid displaying the result to have them garbage collected. 02:43:29 whats sad it is wrote out 15 MB in csv files... thats it. nothing should remain resident. 02:43:57 Also, you may need to have a function to flush the data. 02:44:14 i'm using lets and with-streams.... nothing should remain behind 02:44:24 though i think the final function returns the contents of the last csv file 02:44:26 Typically: (defparameter *a* (compute-big-data)) (setf *a* (compute-big-data)) won't collect the first big data before the second is complete. 02:44:29 maybe i'll just return T instead 02:44:33 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 02:44:41 i have no defvar or defparams 02:44:44 That would be better, yes. 02:44:49 no globals at all 02:44:52 Or return (values). 02:45:01 yeah, i may get stung by return value 02:45:33 even then, 15 meg of strings in lists..... cmon, i have 2 GB of ram available. 02:46:21 IIRC, 32-bit sbcl by default allocates only 512 MB of heap. 02:46:42 i'd expect i'm way under that... is there a command to dump heap status between funcalls? 02:46:53 ROOM 02:46:58 (room t) 02:47:25 ooo 02:47:31 alright, i'll play with it 02:47:33 thanks. 02:47:39 -!- frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:47:41 i may just make it run from shell and launch a new process each time. 02:48:49 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:17 frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:30 ck [~ck@24.144.224.87] has joined #lisp 02:53:43 -!- ck [~ck@24.144.224.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:50 Demosthenes: buildapp can help with that! 02:54:05 ck [~ck@24.144.224.87] has joined #lisp 02:54:31 -!- ck is now known as Guest14265 02:54:31 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has joined #lisp 02:54:51 -!- Guest14265 [~ck@24.144.224.87] has left #lisp 02:57:11 Xach: does buildapp make lisp sexy? 02:57:34 Demosthenes: it makes executables you can launch pretty easily. 02:58:00 -!- poet [~poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:59:08 i thought you said it wasn't ready last time 03:00:10 poet [~poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 03:01:01 site? 03:01:14 Xach: can you extend command-line-arguments to handle the invocation? 03:01:34 then it'll be in a library independent of either buildapp, cl-launch or whatever 03:02:34 -!- frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:02:50 ok, so my usage was around 40MB, then i kicked off a run, now its 250MB 03:02:55 i returned NIL 03:02:59 so where's the memory hiding? 03:03:02 -!- jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:03:03 there's no global 03:03:16 in the stack? 03:03:27 did you (gc) 03:03:55 i ran a function with static parameters... and came back to slime prompt 03:04:15 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:06:11 http://pastebin.com/2Cnzwk0Z 03:08:40 gc didn't take, do you know a specific function-name in sbcl? 03:09:28 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:28 (sb-ext:gc :full t) 03:10:05 -!- quidnunc [~user@bas16-montreal02-1177684015.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:08 SLIME presentations can eat memory 03:10:14 well, :full with so much space might blow up 03:10:21 my func returned NIL ;] 03:10:41 frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:00 ok, w/o full it came down by 20 MB, w/ full it came back down to 40. sweet! 03:11:08 but why wouldn't it do that automatically? 03:11:29 it does 03:12:16 if i run my function twice in a row, it bombs from heap overflow. 03:12:37 there's no persistent data on my side, i read a file, i write a file. nothing returns. 03:12:46 i can run plenty of such functions 03:12:50 s/run/write/ 03:12:56 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:13:26 you said the gc runs automatically, but it didn't or this'd work. 03:13:37 and you didn't show your function 03:14:13 true, but this was more a generic question... 03:15:22 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has quit [Quit: brennanc] 03:17:58 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 03:18:06 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:32 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:23:30 Demosthenes, the generic answer would be you're consing somewhere 03:24:05 "you're doing it wrong" is my favorite generic answer 03:25:19 I think Demosthenes's point is that uncollected garbage led to a crash rather than collect-and-continue 03:25:26 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:45 it might blow up during collection 03:26:50 then perhaps the gc needs to be triggered when (i) it's safe to collect and (ii) free store is small enough to start worrying 03:27:10 Demosthenes, is the build threaded? 03:28:00 flush more often? 03:28:26 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 03:28:30 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:30:00 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:33:16 saikat [~saikat@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:03 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:34:32 -!- saikat [~saikat@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:35:08 saikat [~saikat@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:23 -!- poet [~poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:35:58 -!- nus [~nus@unaffiliated/nus] has quit [Quit: .] 03:36:26 poet [~poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #lisp 03:37:39 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:39:46 adeht: you hit the point 03:39:55 of course i was creating lists and working in the function 03:40:02 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:41:51 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:48 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:44:55 but the function call was *over* with. 03:45:26 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:46:03 pasting your code would help more 03:47:49 -!- saikat [~saikat@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:47:59 -!- pjb [~t@95.124.11.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:48:07 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:48:36 saikat [~saikat@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:43 fda314925 [~fda314925@121.124.124.117] has joined #lisp 03:49:16 pjb [~t@55.Red-88-28-52.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:26 So, philosophically, why does slime attempt to wrap the debugger/inspector/etc.? What is wrong with just displaying the implementation specific menu? 03:49:52 because it's implementation specific? 03:51:24 so people just really hate sbcl/franz/clisp? 03:51:35 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:51:45 that's a wrong conclusion 03:52:01 the point is you can love more than one 03:52:07 I was attempting to demonstrate my confusion. 03:52:08 ...i guess 03:52:19 oconnore_: you succeeded 03:52:26 stassats: thanks. 03:52:38 <_3b> having the same UI when you need to fix a bug on an implementation you don't usually use is nice 03:53:05 and i haven't seen any implementation debugger or inspector to come close to slime's 03:53:23 Ok, those two things make sense. 03:54:07 <_3b> slime also has access to UI features the lisp by itself doesn't, like multiple windows, mouse, character addressable display, etc 03:54:27 colors! 03:58:33 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7748.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:58:56 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:59:38 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:54 ram0x62 [~ram@home.ramandgita.com] has joined #lisp 04:00:54 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:01:07 -!- danly [~danleslie@S010600259c4d3771.vs.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: danly] 04:02:44 benny [~benny@i577A8457.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:03:14 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:06:02 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:54 evening 04:12:39 Is this considered modifying a constant: (defvar *z* '((mlist simp))) (setf (cdr *z*) '(1 2 3))? 04:13:04 Looks like it is modifying a literal. 04:13:56 _8david [~user@port-92-195-152-62.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 04:13:57 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: http://b.lowh.net/billitch] 04:14:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 04:14:33 That's what I thought. 04:15:26 *rtoym* needs to fix that issue in maxima. Doesn't seem to cause problems there though. 04:15:54 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-28-248.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:15:58 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-53.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:22:08 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:10 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:23:32 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 04:24:55 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:25:29 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:29:36 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:31 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:34:01 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:35:32 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zuisgmajejvjitsh] has joined #lisp 04:36:49 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:38:49 Is there a way to force parse-integer to return an int of integer-length 32? 04:39:26 xphillyx [~philly4fi@c-24-12-66-118.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:09 I'm an idiot. Nevermind. 04:41:25 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:42:17 moocow [~new@64.151.208.2] has joined #lisp 04:42:21 -!- holycow [~new@mail.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:56:57 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:59:00 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zuisgmajejvjitsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:00:50 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gnxfypdknxsievrz] has joined #lisp 05:07:44 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-179-53.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:09:21 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-53.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:09:59 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440249.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 05:11:39 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-42.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 05:13:41 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 05:19:58 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:27:27 Good morning! 05:27:59 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 05:28:58 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gnxfypdknxsievrz] has left #lisp 05:29:22 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mudbivuzjkyialwk] has joined #lisp 05:29:45 hi 05:30:09 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mudbivuzjkyialwk] has left #lisp 05:30:56 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:32:00 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:32:11 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wcsxlsjvpfymwmjh] has joined #lisp 05:40:11 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-064-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:37 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-064-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 05:42:03 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:22 -!- saikat [~saikat@adsl-99-138-83-148.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: saikat] 05:55:47 quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:00:47 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:02:03 -!- ram0x62 [~ram@home.ramandgita.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:10:54 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:11:12 -!- bigjust1 [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:12:38 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 06:13:36 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:13:53 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 06:15:30 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [] 06:16:01 gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has joined #lisp 06:18:09 zinox [~zinox@unaffiliated/geek] has joined #lisp 06:18:22 rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:24 -!- zinox [~zinox@unaffiliated/geek] has left #lisp 06:20:31 Why i C better than Lisp? 06:21:01 -!- malsyned [~malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:22:34 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-ppyemwaiokmwjumn] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:22:34 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 06:22:44 at what? 06:22:46 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@ppp-70-251-66-179.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 06:23:25 Nevermind. 06:23:35 I'm just trolling, and badly at that. 06:23:38 Please ignore me 06:24:34 stassats: 06:24:39 marab [~mardonio@189.179.102.181] has joined #lisp 06:24:41 C is better than lisp because more people get things done with it. :) 06:24:42 disregard :P 06:25:05 they are different 06:25:23 Not incredibly so -- both are procedural, for example. 06:26:53 telll me more 06:27:02 -!- marioxcc [~user@201.132.83.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:27:14 They both have the equivalent of first class functions. 06:27:21 Lisp has cloures. 06:27:24 C does not. 06:27:33 Yes, C lacks lexical closures. 06:27:49 Or dynamic ones. 06:27:58 -!- marab [~mardonio@189.179.102.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:28:05 What is a "dynamic closure"? 06:28:24 It captures binding in the dynamic scope of its creation site. 06:28:59 Sounds like someone is confused, to me. 06:30:20 Zhivago: (defun x (p) (lambda (y) (+ p y)) 06:30:38 Um, that's just lexical closure. 06:32:55 Zhivago: i'm used to think that first class functions/value can be constructed during execution of a program, does C do that ? 06:33:16 (sorry for my english) 06:33:18 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:29 Nshag: Function pointers qualify. 06:34:54 Zhivago: as a way to pass/return function/value, but to construct new function ? 06:34:56 Zhivago: Imagine that closure evaluated such that references to free variables happened according to dynamic scope 06:35:00 Nshag: Think of a function as being code (static) + environment (dynamic). The envioronment. Since C doesn't have closures, the environment is trivial (just the global one), so all can be done statically. 06:35:17 quote: Still lexical closure. 06:36:23 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:37:12 Nshag: This is the first time I see you utter anything here, even though you have been coming here for a while. You are in France, right? 06:37:21 beach: yes 06:37:24 Zhivago: Err, nonsense. (lambda (x) (foo)) 06:37:30 Nshag: Where abouts? 06:37:59 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:02 quote: Think about what scope means. 06:38:23 beach: Gien 06:38:38 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-241.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 06:39:00 quote: How can I tell if V is a special variable? 06:39:01 minty fresh breath? 06:39:01 malsyned [~malsyned@adsl-75-35-185-146.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:09 saikat [~saikat@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:59 Zhivago: God shines his Grace upon Him. 06:41:13 quote: Use your brain. 06:43:07 adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:14 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-22-161.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:45:14 -!- ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:45:14 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:18 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-73-33.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:45:46 -!- jsoft [~user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:46:36 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:47:45 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:49:27 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.120] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:49:40 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:10 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:51:27 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:51:36 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 06:53:05 -!- xphillyx [~philly4fi@c-24-12-66-118.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:56:54 ubii [~ubii@207-119-123-149.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:44 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:12 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:00:06 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 07:03:05 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:04:45 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:05:53 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: \o] 07:07:51 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 07:07:53 trittweiler: current SLIME/ECL don't work anymore -- close-connection: Cannot parse an integer in the string "\x3030\x3030\x3363\x283A\x656D\x6163". ... from READ-PACKET. 07:07:58 gavino [~gschuette@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:10 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-77-172.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:13:55 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 07:18:43 i just found this regarding high memory usage with cl-ppcre, http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2007-03/msg01245.html 07:19:00 tried that, didn't help. swapped out cl-pccre for split-sequence, since I was only using split 07:19:08 same result, 250 MB after function runs. 07:19:24 added the gc call at end of function after a let, no change. 07:19:32 I think the is an alternative to pcre. 07:20:03 i have to wait until it returns and goes back to slime to hit gc 07:20:06 then it clears 07:20:25 have you run out of memory yet? no? then stop micromanaging. :) 07:20:41 hefner: if i run it twice in a row, i bomb with a heap overflow 07:20:48 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:48 thats why i care 07:21:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:21:27 i'm not doing anything fancy. read in text files to a bunch of strings in a list, massage the list, make a new list of lists of strings for output, and output. the output is only 15 megs in CSV. 07:21:56 nothing is returned, and there are no global variables, everything is contained in lets and with-file 07:24:31 hey tcr, SLIME and ECL are broken. :) 07:25:23 hm in what way? 07:26:08 it won't connect to the swank server. I get close-connection: Cannot parse an integer in the string "\x3030\x3030\x3363\x283A\x656D\x6163". ... from READ-PACKET in emacs. 07:26:41 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:27:27 --disable-unicode? In that case, what's the entry in slime-lisp-implementations? 07:27:54 no, this is with --enable-unicode --enable-threads 07:28:17 (what's slime-lisp-implementations?) 07:28:20 Does the entry in slime-lisp-implementations specify utf-8 as coding-system? 07:28:44 that's how you configure slime to be able to cope with multiple implementations 07:29:41 tcr pasted "for hefner" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95577 07:29:41 that's how *you* configure slime to be able to cope with multiple implementations. I setq inferior-lisp-program to the one I want. :) 07:30:31 In that case you have set swank:*coding-system* in your ~/.swank.lisp 07:30:36 have to 07:31:10 Perhaps ECL's :DEFAULT is not utf8 even in case it was built with --enable-unicode? 07:31:11 if I use this newfangled implementations list, how do I choose the one I want to start? 07:31:19 j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has joined #lisp 07:31:32 M-- slime, then you're prompt for the lisp to choose from that lisp (with tab completion) 07:31:37 M-- M-x slime 07:31:49 Bah excuse my grammar I just woke up 07:32:00 *tcr* goes making coffee 07:35:40 adopting your method magically fixes it, at least for the case of starting ECL as an inferior lisp 07:36:08 still crashes and burns the same way when I connect to a running program, but maybe I can flail around and find the right magic switch to flip. 07:37:02 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:38 also, my game now freezing up while waiting for the swank connection, which is a little weird, since I thought I started the server in its own thread. 07:39:45 anair_84 [~anair_84@122.162.126.136] has joined #lisp 07:40:37 why can't these things use a proper binary protocol and stop this character encoding insanity, anyway? 07:40:45 mega1 [~quassel@pool-0214c.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:41:32 mega1: congrats on your ass-kicking tron bot 07:42:25 hefner: thanks. Although one cannot glean much from the leaderboard, it's so random. 07:45:18 hefner: Actually there's a sanity check involved in case you use slime-lisp-implementations 07:45:29 hefner: The swank backend does not use threads by default anymore 07:46:03 The compiler of ECL (certainly), and CLOS (my guess) are not thread safe 07:46:32 and because compilation goes through gcc, C-c C-c was quite slow so you could easily start two threads trying to compile something 07:46:45 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-42.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:47:07 Default communication-style is NIL again, but the backend now uses select() to wait for input instead of listen+sleep 07:47:14 tcr: okay, but I start it in its own thread, I'm a little confused as to how it manages to freeze my main thread out 07:47:30 hm 07:49:14 maybe I'm mistaken. I only see two threads in GDB, but one of those is a C thread doing audio. 07:50:59 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:51:38 yeah, I screwed it up while shuffling code around. I guess with the old communications style, I wouldn't have noticed my mistake. 07:52:44 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:54:06 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 07:54:07 nice 07:54:13 Axius [~hi@92.82.87.241] has joined #lisp 07:54:22 or, no, apparently I rigged this up so that Alt-S starts swank in the foreground, and Control-Alt-S starts it in the background, and completely forgot about that. 07:55:04 put in a comment NOW 07:55:44 btw. a handy thing if you see SI:BYTECODES in the backtrace 07:55:53 you can press D to disassemble the function 07:56:14 that will give you hints what function is behind the frame 07:56:52 Which implemetation of lisp should I download for learning the language? 07:56:52 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-241.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:57:14 Axius: Probably SBCL, or Clozure CCL. What platform are you on? 07:57:29 archlinux 07:58:17 wvdschel [~wim@d51A4AD58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 07:59:59 Either is fine, make sure to use Emacs+Slime 08:00:29 tcr: thanks. 08:01:16 Don't hesitate to come here and ask for advice on set up 08:01:32 ok. 08:01:35 Axius: Another thing to contemplate is using clbuild which will download & build all the stuff for you 08:01:37 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 08:02:35 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:02:48 good morning 08:02:50 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-241.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:04:15 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:04:50 -!- Axius [~hi@92.82.87.241] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:05:00 is there an analog to SBCL's save-lisp-and-die in CCL? 08:05:26 ccl:save-application 08:05:37 hefner: thanks! 08:06:20 hefner: working now? 08:07:40 vng [~user@118.68.171.233] has joined #lisp 08:07:51 Good afternoon! 08:08:04 tcr: no, I'm not sure how to fix the coding system problem when I do slime-connect. I set slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix, but that doesn't help. 08:08:42 *hefner* also notes that paredit-mode screws up output from C-j in emacs *scratch* buffer, causing considerable confusion 08:10:39 hefner: you have to specify either swank:*coding-system* or pass :coding-system to create-server 08:11:51 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:12:07 I wonder why I haven't been bitten by that.. 08:12:08 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-241.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:13:10 what apps are you gents coding? 08:13:18 what do the apps do? 08:14:00 I am coding a butler. 08:14:08 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:14:22 I'm thinking of coding a bouncer 08:15:20 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-241.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:15:35 *Adlai* is building a QA framework, but not in lisp 08:15:44 This is ridiculous. I'm going to find the nearest NAT router and smash it with a hammer. 08:15:44 hmmm, ccl:save-application doesn't seem to produce valid executables on win64 08:15:54 wvdschel, are you passing :executable t ? 08:16:27 *wvdschel* feels stupid now 08:16:30 I wasn't 08:16:31 thanks 08:16:46 hm 08:16:53 Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has joined #lisp 08:17:02 in :default-initargs one does not have access to the instance being created, right? 08:17:06 nostoi [~nostoi@80.31.172.244] has joined #lisp 08:17:13 tcr, right 08:17:14 -!- Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/] 08:17:14 maus [~maus@222.253.87.82] has joined #lisp 08:17:15 splittist [~5c6b7ed9@gateway/web/freenode/x-vxyhxwwlaszgbdyy] has joined #lisp 08:17:19 morning 08:17:21 adlai, it doesn't seem to take that parameter 08:17:39 Good afternoon! 08:17:40 wvdschel, sorry, that's for SBCL's version. The CCL equivalent is :prepend-kernel 08:17:59 great, thanks! 08:18:08 Hello splittist! 08:18:30 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:19:56 *drewc* is a proud canuck tonight 08:20:53 tcr: Hacks and glory await! 08:21:01 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:22:08 -!- PuffTheMagic [~quassel@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:22:18 yay 08:22:22 now try the new M-. godness 08:23:13 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:13 oh, sweet. this is almost like I'm using a real implementation of lisp! 08:24:37 *drewc* thinks the cool kids are talking about ECL 08:25:10 *drewc* thinks they should be talking about hockey! 08:25:27 *drewc* is probably in the wrong channel for that 08:25:30 Deeply inspectable c-objects would be cool. That said, shouldn't CFFI have enough information to make it possible to write a slime contrib for that? 08:26:02 Probably scratch "deeply" 08:26:19 -!- wvdschel [~wim@d51A4AD58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 08:26:25 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@122.162.126.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:26:40 you could inspect C structures, I suppose 08:27:00 unions are problematic. 08:27:19 drewc: especially for those of us in CH... 08:27:49 *hefner* assumes this has something to do with the Olympics, wishes the Olympics would die. 08:28:35 tcr: you could do that replacing GCC with clang, but then ECL would be rather different... :D 08:29:42 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:30:08 a question about CFFI (just a general newbie question).. to the objects have a notion of (type-of ..) that is unique to each foriegne object "class"? 08:30:34 I'd suggest (class-of ...) for that. 08:30:35 to the object/do the objects 08:30:44 ah.. heh! 08:30:49 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:31:15 splittist: hell of a game.... 2-0 was surprising 08:31:20 p_l: ECL sources could use @(defstruct magic to record layout of its cl objects 08:31:34 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:31:52 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 08:34:12 -!- rread [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:34:17 rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-epfonlumkmtigtdn] has joined #lisp 08:34:38 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:35:11 tannc [~user@c-c7f9e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:35:31 *p_l* finds it quite funny to have TCO in C 08:35:48 tco? 08:36:39 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:36:39 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:36:54 back to my understanding of "bytecode vs .cs or .java" TCO is possibly on .NET if one uses bytecode? 08:37:02 tco = tail call optimization 08:37:51 or so i have heard it to be possible.. but other times "not yet" 08:38:17 All you need is goto for the simple case. 08:38:38 bah stupid that's there no empty predicate for sequences 08:38:38 dmiles_afk: I recall something about clojure exploiting goto for TCO when you use recur (or whatever it was called) 08:38:50 -!- pjb [~t@55.Red-88-28-52.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:38:58 one could perhaps kludge something together with EVERY/SOME/NOTANY + IDENTITY 08:39:25 trc: (lambda (x) (= (length x) 0)) ? 08:40:15 sucks for lists :-) and the point is that it's not there not that's difficult to write 08:40:19 p_l: ok that makes sense 08:41:16 LLVM does TCO, at least in clang 08:42:31 *p_l* meanwhile started coming up with a scheme for placing lisp code into ELF 08:43:07 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:51 getting it avialabe to a pre-exiting source language .. or even getting a explitit enough statement that implies a goto i guess is what is hard 08:44:03 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@80.31.172.244] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:44:19 Well, a while loop will do. 08:45:09 thats what i am about to try label: do {... goto label: } while(false) in java 08:45:41 Why not just while (true) { ... } 08:46:09 with the the last item break; that works 08:46:10 -!- enthymene [~kraken@cpe-98-148-35-51.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: *thud*] 08:46:27 i just going for the ablitiy to label a jump to point 08:46:38 Fair enough. 08:47:47 oh now thats the one thing atualyl easier to do i java than C#.. to continue to an outter block 08:48:41 (c# doesnt let programmers label things!) 08:48:49 trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:49:28 just on the context earlier p_l and i were talking aobut how much more we like C# than java 08:49:57 so looks like its easier to make a goto in sourcecode in java than it is c# 08:50:41 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:46 tsuru` [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:04 p_l: i like that idea 08:53:10 -!- tsuru [~user@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:54:03 -!- trebor_d` is now known as trebor_dki 08:55:01 good morning. just had a look at google ai challenge leaderboard - good fight ;) 08:55:19 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:57:30 TCO = tailcall optimization? 08:57:51 *hefner* wishes he could've gotten a bot into the competition, ran out of time 08:58:07 -!- tannc [~user@c-c7f9e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: zZz] 08:58:07 bot? comp? 08:59:55 -!- varjagg is now known as varjag 09:00:42 -!- gko [~gko@211.22.47.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:00:42 Am I going to have to read the rules of the competition to understand when it resets? 09:00:44 ok nice, i just learned about gotos being even easier in c#.. i guess i dont even need a while loop 09:01:05 (but while loop is still needed/usefull from java) 09:01:12 splittist, what do you mena by "reset"? 09:01:51 hefner: me, too. as i started seriously to think about it, i saw that the final tournament was 4 days to go ... 09:02:10 adu: yes, tailcalls. And I suspect the idea you liked was packing Lisp into ELF? 09:02:15 splittist: look for final tournament link 09:02:23 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:02:44 splittist: "he submission deadline is Feb 26 at 11:59 PM EST, one minute before midnight." 09:02:55 -!- jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jhalogen] 09:03:02 http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/contest/final_tournament.php 09:03:02 p_l: yes, anything that helps with RE 09:04:28 trebor_dki: nicely vague (: 09:07:30 feb is such a short month 09:07:33 *hefner* started 24 hours before the deadline, wasted most of an afternoon and evening, made a reasonable start, rewriting the starter pack code, rigging up some toy bots and code to test them against each other, but couldn't stay up all night to (maybe) produce something worth submitting 09:07:57 so what kinds of apps are you gents writing in lisp lately? 09:09:14 hefner, splittist, trebor_dki -- This may be helpful if you want to pull a tronbot together: http://www.benzedrine.cx/tcptron.c 09:10:21 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:10:45 http://www.cliki.net/cl-irregsexp this is that regex thing btw 09:11:17 Adlai: thank you (btw starter-pack make did not succeed) - but my family would definitely kill me if i start today. if it were about 10 days or so, i really would like to take part (maybe there are more contests like this? - will google lateron). 09:12:16 isn't the submission deadline past? 09:12:27 (passed) 09:12:58 adu: my main problem is the difference between dumping a running core, and compiling everything the way ECL does it. 09:13:31 trebor_dki: you might have to remove the --dynamic-space-size option in the makefile. I had to, at least. 09:13:38 hefner, nope, not yet 09:13:56 hefner: 26th 09:14:03 p_l: how does ECL do it? 09:14:39 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 09:14:41 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:14:47 *hefner* smacks forehead. it's confusing being 12 hours offset from EST. 09:14:53 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.14.89] has joined #lisp 09:16:42 adu: ECL compiles into bytecode, then into shared objects then loads them 09:17:05 but it also means it doesn't really "dump core" 09:17:08 p_l: do you mean dynamic libraries? 09:17:35 adu: yes 09:17:46 on linux, ECL's FASL format is ELF SOLIB 09:17:59 it compiles into not-shared-objects too 09:18:33 true 09:19:17 it can generate static binaries as well, or just leave C code to compile on target 09:19:53 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-32-24.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:21:57 anyway, my plan so far allows full introspection, including off-line where possible :) 09:25:02 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wcsxlsjvpfymwmjh] has left #lisp 09:25:26 a-s [~user@2001:15c0:66a3:2:214:85ff:feea:c35a] has joined #lisp 09:28:08 (like checking, without loading, what code/data/macros are included in a FASL, and code with (eval-when... ) etc. 09:29:25 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-186-158.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 09:29:35 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has joined #lisp 09:31:22 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:31:46 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-241.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:31:59 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-241.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 09:32:55 racecondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 09:33:56 spradnyesh [~pradyus@121.242.102.208] has joined #lisp 09:35:46 myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:01 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 09:36:02 p_l: introspection? is that the same as reflection? 09:37:15 demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 09:39:11 I guess :) 09:39:45 You could say that it means the same in practice, but different groups used two different names 09:39:56 has anybody used parenscript? 09:42:54 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: night] 09:43:46 konr: I believe most people here dealing with web (using CL) used parenscript at some point :) 09:45:07 p_l: well, i'm not part of any group, I call it "the right data at the right time" 09:47:56 -!- demmeln [~Adium@lapradig96.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has left #lisp 09:48:00 p_l: I wonder how stable it is. Javascript is so disgustingly verbose :( 09:49:14 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:52:27 I have a suspicion that not many people continue to use parenscript after encountering any need to debug the resulting javascript (I'm not implying that the resulting JS is in any way bad, just that the need to mentally translate back-and-forth is usually not a good thing) 09:53:37 or when they decide that they want to use jquery or some other elaborate JS framework 09:54:45 there are _reasons_ why cross-language code generation rarely works well in practice 09:56:24 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-0214c.externet.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:37 mega1 [~quassel@pool-0214c.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:57:06 fiveop [~fiveop@g229178004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:43 -!- hc_e [~hc@salato.hcesperer.org] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 09:59:06 hmmm... are there good lisp->java/c translators? I guess they'd have to use another class system, but at least there would be code reduction 09:59:12 -!- quotemstr [~quotemstr@cpe-67-247-228-249.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 09:59:28 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:59:44 hc_e [~hc@salato.hcesperer.org] has joined #lisp 09:59:56 konr: parenscript is afaik very stable, except for some changes to syntax lately. Other than that, it simply translates from a S-Exp based language to JS 10:00:28 cmm-: I found parenscript to generate better and easier to understand code than me ^^; 10:00:34 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:01:01 the only issues I guess would be if I went with some innovative uses of objects in JS, which might look ugly 10:01:56 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:03:19 OK, I don't _really_ know what I'm talking about here :) 10:05:09 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:07:15 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@79.102.0.186] has quit [] 10:07:43 cmm-: believe me, I don't want to see function(function(x,y){...},function(foo){...}) anymore 10:08:35 and that's what I actually encountered in JS. I found parenscript better than learning how to do it nicely :D 10:09:27 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229178004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 10:10:41 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66108c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 10:11:38 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 10:12:40 -!- gavino [~gschuette@cpe-76-172-28-85.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:14:29 do you by any chance run more than one lisp on emacs or know how to configure it to do so? 10:15:25 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-53-82-65-36-161.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:15:35 konr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/95577 10:16:55 tcr: thanks! 10:18:26 konr: By M-- M-x slime, you'll prompted for the lisp implementation to be used 10:20:17 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@222-154-179-53.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:21:27 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-53.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:23:53 -!- vng [~user@118.68.171.233] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:25:27 -!- maus [~maus@222.253.87.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:30:25 Hello, Could you tell me why do I get 302 error while using Drakma? I have :redirect t so it shouldnt happened... 10:32:35 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:33:50 j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has joined #lisp 10:36:23 -!- sledge [~sledge@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:43:58 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:44:18 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:46:59 <_3b> mrSpec: trying to POST maybe? 10:47:54 yes, I'm sending POST request 10:48:16 it doesnt work with redirects? 10:48:29 <_3b> mrSpec: http://weitz.de/drakma/#redirect 10:48:58 splittist_ [~5c6b7ed9@gateway/web/freenode/x-kmvyptbrfubuygjw] has joined #lisp 10:49:38 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:50:14 och... redirect-methods, thanks _3b 10:50:29 -!- mega1 [~quassel@pool-0214c.externet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:50:42 -!- splittist [~5c6b7ed9@gateway/web/freenode/x-vxyhxwwlaszgbdyy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:50:52 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 10:51:39 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 10:51:45 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-205-231-150-219.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:51:45 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:52:18 -!- billstclair is now known as wws 10:52:22 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-245-224.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:58 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@121.242.102.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:54:48 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:55:07 bizarrefish [~lee@host217-42-29-79.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:57:49 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cysvbzselscprkuz] has joined #lisp 11:04:00 Could anyone look wether in vanilla SLDB, local variables names are put in quotes or not? 11:05:26 ok not necessary anymore 11:06:32 jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:08:28 tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.54] has joined #lisp 11:09:13 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:11:03 pjb [~t@55.Red-88-28-52.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:22 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:17:54 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:18:44 Xantoz [~hejhej@c-1cb2e253.01-157-73746f30.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:23:14 hallelujah I just segfaulted emacs 11:23:21 silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has joined #lisp 11:23:40 quick, email RMS! 11:24:29 -!- j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:24:39 most lisps when they get a type-error they give you a chance to supply a value of the correct type in the debugger? 11:27:09 i am adding that feature to my ABCL branch .. usually its a simple as "LOGAND(obj) { return type_error(this, Symbol.INTEGER);" -> "LOGAND(obj) { return type_error(this, Symbol.INTEGER).LOGAND(obj);" 11:28:13 that type_error(..) can let the user supply a value .. and then continue with the supplied value 11:28:39 i am not sure why ABCL didnt do this already 11:29:51 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 11:30:56 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:31:09 I never use restarts 11:31:22 I mean, if my code is broken, why help it continue being broken? :-P 11:31:30 (at least for something like type errors) 11:31:45 hehe yeah true most of the time 11:31:46 I guess if I recall heavily, I might have used restarts for mistyped filenames once 11:31:53 http://libomv.pastebin.ca/1809451 11:32:13 thats an example.. rather than gving the JVM a numm pointer 11:32:27 -!- clayraat [~skyr@217.23.124.154] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:32:34 not that it would be reached unless the type-error wasnt installed correctly 11:33:06 but yeah some restarts are pretty impossible to make things start going well again 11:33:21 if they got to where they are ussually the casue was way above 11:34:01 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:35:35 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:36:03 i kinda see having to be able to let the user when they see the stack that got them there.. return a value to a frame above 11:36:29 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:36:33 so, 8 frames of your 10-frame stack are fubar 11:36:42 returning a new value into the top frame, yeah really useful ;) 11:36:54 j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has joined #lisp 11:37:02 but being able to return something lower down, cool 11:37:12 unless it relied on those 10 broken frames to have side effects 11:37:27 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 11:37:43 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-45-241.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:37:47 also, when one gets to the debugger, it is possible to fix code, and continue the broken code with a supplied value 11:38:06 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 11:38:22 pjb` [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:30 and on the next iteration or whatever the fixed version would run 11:38:33 I guess it heavily depends on how much work it took to get to that state, whether you try to patch it up or just start over 11:38:49 at least the newly supplied value part seems to be pretty easy to fix ABCL to allow 11:39:14 -!- pjb [~t@55.Red-88-28-52.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:39:15 sure, even if it's only used once ever, it's really handy for that person :) 11:39:25 and if it's easy to put in, all the better 11:39:48 (+ 1 "string") .. though i can show the stack of whats happening while lettig the person replace "string" with 2 11:39:49 -!- racecondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:40:11 but wondering if they might just want to return 3 from the (+ ... ) 11:40:24 right 11:40:56 slash_ [~Unknown@p4FF0B0C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:46 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DD82.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:30 -!- j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has quit [] 11:45:07 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 11:46:43 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 11:46:47 larkc lisp had this built in with a this.toInteger().intValue(); where toInteger() may or may not be a type error 11:47:13 i just dont know how to get ABCL to adopt those standards 11:49:01 as Fixnum just overrides intValue() on its own.. the superclass of all LispObjects do the toInteger().intValue(); 11:50:36 also FFI objects that represent fixnum themselves can override toInteger() and self coerce 11:53:14 j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has joined #lisp 11:55:28 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@p4FF0B0C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 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[~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:24:49 -!- myu2 [~myu2@161.90.128.210.bf.2iij.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28:31 hicx174 [~hicx174@211.187.100.115] has joined #lisp 12:30:27 Allegro CL Enterprise Edition 5.0.1 [SPARC] (6/1/0 10:26) <--- I suspect this is slightly obsolete to be very happy about? ^^; 12:30:50 mrSpec pasted "mask" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95585 12:31:03 Is it possible to write this function without setf? 12:31:22 It doesnt look nice ;S 12:31:55 <_3b> clhs w-o-t-s 12:31:56 WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm 12:33:08 <_3b> also, don't use EQ for characters 12:34:10 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-53.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:34:15 *_3b* would probably use ACROSS to get the chars instead of looping for i below length and indexing the arrays as well 12:34:32 across... ok :D 12:34:52 <_3b> (and I object to DO at the end of LOOP clauses, dunno how common that objection is though) 12:35:10 mrSpec: and there's a thing called bit-vector 12:35:13 clhs bit-vector 12:35:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_bt_vec.htm 12:36:07 clhs 2.4.8.4.1 12:36:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhda.htm 12:37:34 *_3b* would probably also use the WHEN from LOOP instead of putting WHEN inside the DO body 12:37:47 allocate a string in advance 12:40:59 stassats annotated #95585 "mask" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95585#1 12:41:17 if you used a number as bitmask (using binary syntax if you want) youc could use logcount to find out the size of the string to allocate 12:41:48 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 12:41:53 _3b: when you say at the end of clauses, you mean at the end of lines? I agree with you. And about WHEN (char= ch #\1) DO (princ ch string-stream-thingy). 12:42:23 <_3b> yeah, end of line is more what i meant 12:44:10 *splittist_* keeps looking for occasions to use IT in LOOP, but usually fruitlessly 12:44:34 i used it recently 12:44:49 <_3b> i've used IT once or twice, and wanted it to work in a few more places than it does a few times as well 12:44:54 but i had (let after WHEN 12:47:28 -!- madsy is now known as Madsy 12:47:35 -!- potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66108c-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [] 12:48:15 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:51:31 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51:53 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:52:12 man, reading elisp is horrible 12:52:18 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:52:41 *mathrick* cringes at default dynamic scoping 12:52:45 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:52:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:55:34 (apply 'apply (dvc-function current-dvc postfix) args) 12:55:35 why? 12:56:58 ah, last elem of args is a list 12:57:16 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:40 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:49 ok I've used across and w-o-t-s 12:57:52 mrSpec annotated #95585 "mask-w-o-t-s" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95585#2 12:59:01 <_3b> w-o-t-s returns the string 12:59:37 ah ok :) 12:59:51 <_3b> and format seems a bit overkill, if princ was good enough before 13:00:00 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:00:34 *_3b* would use across to get the char from pass as well too 13:01:48 mrSpec annotated #95585 "mask-final" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95585#3 13:01:48 <_3b> and char= instead of char-equal, no reason to use case-insensitive compare there 13:01:56 ahh 13:01:57 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-128-48-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:02:05 ok so not final yet ;) thanks _3b 13:02:41 I have no idea whether there are lower-case #\1s in unicode... 13:03:56 mrSpec: but it's slow and conses more! 13:04:10 attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-193-194.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 13:04:59 stassats`: than your code? 13:05:05 yes 13:05:32 ok, so this output to string was not best ;) 13:05:46 best in what sense? 13:05:58 there might be different concerns 13:06:07 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:06:26 <_3b> not horribly slower or consier though, assuming a reasonable w-o-t-s 13:07:00 I never worry about consing too much; allocs are typically just pointer increments, and the GC takes <3% of the runtime :-P 13:07:08 and also it's better to use write-char, not princ 13:07:46 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:07:46 <_3b> yeah, write-char sounds reasonable either way 13:09:35 ok, so i have a script with a shebang (#!) line to launch via sbcl & command line, but i still am working on it in slime. it refuses to compile because slime is returning an errors on #!. 13:10:31 a) make #! a comment 13:10:52 stassats`: editing the script each time i swap between wanting to work in slime vs cli... 13:11:06 a reader macro comment 13:11:59 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-046-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:28 or move the existing code into a separate file and have a wrapper script :P 13:12:40 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:12:48 Demosthenes: update your readtable. 13:13:18 ve [~a@smith.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:14:30 just curious how the readtable is supposed to be updated before the first line in the file. .sbclrc? 13:15:02 i would suppose its the one swank/slime uses... 13:15:11 not that i know where to start on that one 13:15:18 Phoodus: sure. 13:15:42 Xach: that'd be pretty drastic global change just to get 1 script running 13:15:44 Phoodus: or make a system that updates the readtable and have the script's .asd depend on it. 13:16:16 . o O (script's asd?) 13:16:23 Phoodus: perhaps. you could always wrap it up in (enable-script-readtable) and (disable-script-readtable) or similar. 13:16:39 Phoodus: if you want to do interactive development on a script, having a system file for it isn't an odd thing to do. 13:16:42 Phoodus, the .asd can be used just for development, and the script itself can stand alone 13:17:38 oh sorry, was thinking that it wasn't working on the cmdline 13:18:09 i'd have rewritten slime's slime-compile-and-load-file to handle #! 13:18:14 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-046-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 13:18:24 (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\! (get-macro-character #\;)) doesn't quite work because of the arglist mismatch. 13:18:29 but that's the same idea. 13:18:32 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:03 sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has joined #lisp 13:22:43 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:24:30 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:25:41 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f66612e-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 13:27:49 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:28:01 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.160.41.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:32:46 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:33:03 -!- lukjad86 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:35:16 Axius [~fd@92.82.88.70] has joined #lisp 13:36:25 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-40-246.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:32 G'morning all. 13:36:37 what is slime? 13:36:43 Axius: think "IDE" 13:37:17 minion, tell Axius about slime.mov 13:37:18 Axius: please see slime.mov: "using SLIME" video by Marco Baringer, http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 13:37:25 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:38:09 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:38:18 right, in the spirit that everything must be freaking difficult in the morning, i've reverted to the #| exec |# syntax, and that works fine across cli invocation and slime compile 13:38:54 Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:58 Demosthenes: buildapp, fwiw, is now publicly released and in version 1.1. 13:39:04 site? 13:39:16 http://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ is it 13:39:42 If Someone* was going to do a slime (+paredt?) screencast today, what would be the top N features to demo? (* Someone Else) 13:40:39 Xach: cool, bookmarked. 13:40:55 C-u C-c C-c 13:43:26 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440249.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:43:31 which is? 13:44:01 recompiles with (optimize (safety 2)) 13:44:33 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:44:42 Adlai: the original compiled with maximum debug. 13:44:47 Adlai: has it changed since then? 13:45:08 er, yeah, it turns debug up. 13:45:15 I thought it was just to 2, though 13:45:34 dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:40 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:39 and you're right, it's maximum. 13:46:57 If invoked with a simple prefix-arg (`C-u'), compile the defun with maximum debug setting. If invoked with a numeric prefix arg, compile with a debug setting of that number. 13:49:05 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 13:49:10 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cysvbzselscprkuz] has left #lisp 13:49:34 my last contribution to slime (for now) 13:50:55 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 13:52:34 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 13:52:41 -!- racecondition [~RaceCondi@42.176.250.195.sta.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:52:59 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:51 Traveler11 [~traveler1@c28374BC1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 13:55:50 hi, how would I turn the symbol '|1| into the number 1? 13:56:09 Traveler11: (parse-integer (symbol-name '|1|)) is one way 13:56:50 ah, thank you Xach 13:56:52 Note that starting from the symbol |1| is a sign that you're probably doing something wrong. 13:56:59 Traveler11: How did you end up with a symbol in the first place? 13:57:36 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 13:58:26 wvdschel [~wim@vpna086.ugent.be] has joined #lisp 13:59:15 hey, did older lisps than common lisp also include support for reader/compiler macros, metaobject protocol etc? 13:59:18 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:59:31 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 13:59:48 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066166.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 14:01:23 lukjad007 [~lukjadOO7@unaffiliated/lukjad007] has joined #lisp 14:01:59 nyef, beach: I'm reading a file which uses numbers as id's 14:02:06 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:17 so I was just interning the strings 14:02:39 Traveler11: you could parse-integer the strings directly. 14:02:41 but I guess I should parse-integer first 14:02:44 mm 14:03:03 Yeah, going via symbols seems like a waste of good symbol-table space. 14:04:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:08:57 -!- Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:36 TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:40 Dodek: at least some did, yes, possibly with exception of MOPs 14:14:29 astoon [~user@80.78.109.217] has joined #lisp 14:16:10 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:36 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:16:57 tfb: no MOP, you say? the AMOP book mentioned about CommonLoops 14:17:12 i read that it made use of metaobjects 14:17:24 how was that different from CLOS? 14:18:15 Dodek: I forget the details. LOOPS was an InterLisp OO system, and I think CommonLoops was LOOPS for the CL environment on the InterLisp machines 14:18:33 PCL I think was at least originally Portable CommonLoops 14:18:45 So CommonLoops is a quite close ancestor of CLOS 14:18:47 Dodek, LOOPS was the closest predecessor to CLOS, and CommonLoops even more so 14:18:52 yea, I recall something about Common Loops evolving into CLOS 14:19:15 actually, I recall reading about it as the main OO system for CL... ^^; 14:19:30 It was at least partly done to make the InterLisp community not feel so disenfranchised by CL I think 14:20:13 It may be the Gabriel/Steel HOPL paper has stuff on this but I suspect it does not really 14:21:19 so it was possible to implement metaobject-based object system in InterLisp? 14:21:26 did anyone actually do it? 14:21:58 I'm not sure if LOOPS had a MOP, it may not have come in till CommonLoops 14:23:58 -!- lukjad007 is now known as lukjad86 14:24:02 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:24:39 cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 14:25:00 -!- Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:05 Sergio` [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 14:25:12 I also don't remember if (new) flavours had a MOP 14:25:45 okay, thanks for the information 14:30:14 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:33 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-47-131.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 14:32:03 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 14:34:52 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:56 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.86.245] has joined #lisp 14:37:03 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:37:03 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:37:03 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:38:33 bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:57 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:23 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066166.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:42:57 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:43:16 -!- Traveler11 [~traveler1@c28374BC1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Quit: Java user signed off] 14:45:30 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:54 would it be cool if ecl is embedded in Emacs? 14:47:45 ... why? 14:48:07 then we will be able to write cl for emacs, no? 14:48:14 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 14:48:17 Isn't that what NaCL is for? 14:48:19 leo2007, (require 'cl) 14:49:15 Adlai: I have that as the first thing in my .emacs ;) 14:49:58 kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:50:55 (require 'cl) is not common lisp. 14:51:05 indeed it is not. 14:51:06 There's emacs-cl, but it would need more care. 14:51:14 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:51:24 And ecl would be faster and better, since it allows for FFI. 14:51:46 yes, and allowing multiple namespaces. 14:51:46 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-171-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:52:29 So: emacs-cl exists and you can start hack emacs in Common Lisp right now. ecl: you need to integrate it first, but would be a better CL in emacs. 14:53:38 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:41 It might even open the door for hacks like luamacs or a real jsmacs. 14:53:52 dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:54:37 Sure. If we extract a nice list of emacs lisp function for FFI with an embedded language, we could easily use it to add other embedded languages. 14:54:46 -!- wvdschel [~wim@vpna086.ugent.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:55:21 Perhaps eventually we could extract an "emacs library", that could itself be embedded in any application. 14:55:57 Adlai` [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 14:56:08 pjb: that'd be OS X's text boxes ;) 14:56:39 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:50 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:56:52 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 14:57:30 Somewhat. But customizable with CL code, and in any application. 14:57:54 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:59:18 -!- Soulman [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:37 Soulman [~kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:00 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:03:34 danlei [~user@pD9E2DFF0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:47 -!- j4K0b [~j4k0bk@93.160.119.14] has quit [] 15:08:03 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:04 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:47 HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:12:23 -!- astoon [~user@80.78.109.217] has left #lisp 15:12:51 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:14:16 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:42 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:15:12 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:15:42 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:24 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 15:17:35 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has joined #lisp 15:19:02 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2DFF0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:11 -!- varjag is now known as varjagg 15:21:24 how hard is it do compile sbcl as a dll? 15:21:24 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:49 On windows? 15:21:52 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 15:21:54 hello 15:21:55 yes 15:22:15 Shouldn't be too hard to do the runtime that way. Making it -work-, however, is another matter entirely. 15:22:48 nyef: Ah, yes, the virtual memory space... 15:22:56 And thread considerations, yes. 15:23:26 nyef: win32 sbcl has threads!? I've been hibernating, obviously. 15:23:35 It doesn't. 15:23:41 nyef: ah 15:23:48 But the only reason to have a DLL is so that you can call into SBCL from a native thread. 15:25:51 What's your use-case, anyway? COM components? 15:26:35 (Oh, right, that's another problem: Exporting random entry-points that a client can find with GetProcAddress.) 15:27:11 -!- jdz [~jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:27:21 -!- brandelune [~suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: brandelune] 15:27:34 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:27:50 -!- frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:28:37 nyef: http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/DLLBind.html 15:29:29 ... Interesting. 15:29:37 if you really want to be roundabout or safer, you can make a little stump DLL that talks to SBCL via stdio or local sockets or something 15:30:11 if it can be async, all the better 15:30:21 It's more of a 'because it's there' thing. 15:30:22 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:30:36 how to activat slime mode in emacs? 15:30:50 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:31:19 Axius: your emacs init file is all set up? 15:32:06 no. 15:32:09 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:32 well, rtfm. It's got all the steps you need to do 15:32:33 Right now I have a project with a src directory and a tests directory. I'm thinking about moving the tests next to the code that they test. Anybody have thoughts on this? 15:34:03 What for? 15:34:15 (I think it's a bad idea) 15:35:52 I generally start with tests inline, and then move them out to external projects :-P 15:36:10 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:31 I've downloaded sbcl and I want to use it with emacs and slime. How to do that? 15:36:38 read the slime docs 15:36:46 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/ 15:37:03 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html#Installation 15:37:51 danly [~danleslie@S010600259c4d3771.vs.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:08 is this a good slime version slime-cvs-20091005-1? 15:38:26 -!- a-s [~user@2001:15c0:66a3:2:214:85ff:feea:c35a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:28 why not grab the latest? 15:39:06 danlei [~user@pD9E2DFF0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:06 this is in my distro repo. 15:39:28 afaik, slime doesn't have releases anymore, just cvs snapshots 15:39:59 oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:26 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:40:28 frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:03 ("Maintainers are not allowed to claim that not releasing or using 'rolling releases' is a feature.") 15:41:18 phadthai [mmondor@66.11.161.166] has joined #lisp 15:42:07 "maintainers" - Hah! 15:43:39 reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:44:02 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:45:37 -!- konr [~user@189.96.218.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:42 Axius: It'll probably be ok 15:46:07 konr [~user@189.96.218.230] has joined #lisp 15:47:37 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 15:47:57 lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 15:48:35 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:48 HG` [~HG@xdslff066.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:50:27 when I run this command:M-x slime I get this:[no match] what should I do? 15:50:38 tcr: in the principle of having related things be near each other. I can see how putting tests before the function could also be self documenting 15:51:01 j4k0b [~j4k0b@1503024517.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:51:32 You want to have one or two screenfuls filled with tests after each function? 15:51:53 dlowe: I think what you want is a DEFEXAMPLE form. 15:51:56 dlowe: you could add a tests declaration (and editor support to hide/show them, for tcr) 15:52:01 (which would also be used for documentation generation) 15:52:52 myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:53:36 -!- dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:54:35 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:16 tfb_ [~tfb@212.183.140.39] has joined #lisp 15:55:48 What's a good name for (loop for x in list for idx from 0 do (funcall idx x))? 15:56:02 (loop for x in list for idx from 0 do (funcall FUN idx x)) 15:56:11 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.54] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:56:16 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 15:56:21 tcr: indexed-map 15:57:03 and s/do/collect/ for indexed-mapcar(ish) 15:57:22 tcr: map-with-index? 15:57:31 mouthful :-/ 15:57:36 mapn :) 15:57:36 I'd express that in terms of MAP NIL though 15:57:43 nmap! 15:57:46 how? 15:57:55 I'm using stefil anyway, which supports a deftest syntax with multiple assertions within each. That's very similar to the defexample form in PAIP 15:58:10 tcr: (map nil fun (iota ...) list) maybe? 15:58:15 HOW? doesn't seem a very good name x( 15:58:16 (let ((index 0)) (map nil (lambda (x) (funcall f index x) (incf index)) ...)) 15:58:27 ah 15:58:30 why not use loop? 15:58:37 works on all sequences 15:58:42 eh true 15:58:42 if only I knew SERIES.. 15:58:55 konr` [~user@187.117.102.89] has joined #lisp 15:59:08 kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:15 yeah, series is great for that kind of stuff. 15:59:42 tcr: it's too early to really tell, since I'm sidetracked screwing with the stupid google ai thing again, but it seems like ECL/SLIME work quite well together now 16:00:05 -!- konr [~user@189.96.218.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:01:17 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:38 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:03:01 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:03:14 hefner: It's going to get better, wait I'll paste a backtrace! 16:03:31 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:35 tcr pasted "Slime+ECL backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95598 16:04:31 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04:42 Is ECL near a release? 16:04:51 Yup, weekend probably 16:04:52 gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has joined #lisp 16:05:00 -!- gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:c2ff:fe0f:2d89] has left #lisp 16:05:01 Ok, I should probably test it then. 16:05:32 unless tcr finds 30 critical bugs in one evening again, that is :) 16:05:38 -!- leadnose [leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has left #lisp 16:05:47 must have been some evening ;-) 16:06:54 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:06:57 *ZabaQ* remembers that last time he got out ECLs he couldn't build it using the MS toolchain because the build system needed an old platform SDK 16:07:52 ZabaQ: You should probably give a whirl now, and try to build it on your niche platform :-) 16:08:52 -!- smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:09:27 where can I find a good tutorial to learn lisp? 16:10:03 Axius: i think http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ is pretty good 16:10:55 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 16:11:01 Axius: http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/contents.html, http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 16:11:23 tcr: git pulling now 16:12:15 thank you for your help! 16:13:31 -!- kami` is now known as kami 16:15:10 -!- mega1 [~quassel@3e44b2e1.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:17:21 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:19:36 what are boinkmarks, btw? 16:19:49 minion: tell ZabaQ about boinkmarks 16:19:50 ZabaQ: look at boinkmarks: Benchmarks of the current & of old versions of SBCL, hosted at boinkor.net. http://www.cliki.net/boinkmarks 16:20:06 -!- Axius [~fd@92.82.88.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:20:25 nunb [~nundan@59.178.183.154] has joined #lisp 16:20:40 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-046-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:29 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:39 tcr: hmm. Is ECL_UNICODE supported? 16:23:07 How do you mean? 16:24:05 Compilation bombed out just after compiling contrib/encodings/generate.lsp 16:24:20 Debugger received error: The variable *MODULE-SYMBOLS* is unbound. 16:24:30 --enable-unicode works for me on linux 16:24:53 SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has joined #lisp 16:25:03 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-046-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 16:26:49 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:27:31 I'll do some poking around.. 16:27:49 ..pity Juanjo doesn't inhabit #lisp 16:28:23 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:24 I met him on this network two times in the last week :-) 16:29:53 mega1 [~quassel@3e44b2e1.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 16:30:19 He said he'd like to hang out and chat about Lisp but he better wouldn't start because of time suckage 16:31:10 demmeln1 [~Adium@dslb-094-216-046-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:56 I know the feeling. :( 16:32:01 Sergio`_ [~Sergio`@a89-152-187-26.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 16:32:35 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 16:32:43 Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 16:36:36 Dawgmatix [~user@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:43 p 16:36:56 -!- demmeln1 [~Adium@dslb-094-216-046-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 16:37:06 -!- trittweiler [~tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:37:52 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:39:26 -!- pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:40 pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:59 nyef: regarding building DLLs... if I figure out ELF fasls & cores, I guess making DLLs shouldn't be *too* hard ;-) 16:41:54 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-77-172.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 16:42:59 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:43:06 -!- attila_lendvai [~ati@apn-89-223-193-194.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:43:29 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-165-27.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:26 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:44:42 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:45:45 in slime is there some way to have the cursor automatically be where the indentation requires it to be after just entering a newline ? otherwise by default i have to write my forms and then indent them manually 16:46:04 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:13 Dawgmatix: I use C-j instead of RET. 16:46:38 Dawgmatix: The long version is RET + C-i (or RET + TAB) 16:46:56 ah C-j works 16:47:16 thanks 16:47:22 No problem. 16:48:02 fe[nl]ix: here? 16:48:05 yes 16:48:15 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:48:24 -!- SandGorgon [~OmNomNomO@122.162.122.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:48:29 could you privmsg me your #, please? It seem I accidently deleted your mail 16:49:31 drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:43 config.lsp is giving me a filesystem error 16:50:19 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-046-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:01 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-046-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 16:51:02 telling me #P"C:/wsr/lisp/ecl/msvc/" does not exist 16:51:24 when it does 16:52:45 -!- Dawgmatix [~user@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:49 that sounds like a bug in probe-file 16:54:21 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslff066.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:54:34 There's a probe-file on like 135 16:54:38 sbahra [~sbahra@128.164.18.158] has joined #lisp 16:54:40 s/like/line 16:55:12 I can override it by setting the ECLSSRCDIR environment variable 16:55:13 yeah but it seems like a bug in its implementation involving directories maybe 16:55:26 line in what file? 16:55:35 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:55:37 lsp/config.lsp 16:56:38 yeah but it really sounds like a bug 16:56:55 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.183.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:57:18 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@128.164.18.158] has quit [Client Quit] 16:58:16 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:43 racecondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 16:59:16 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:29 Anyone have a good tutorial on building an executable for deployment as a web server using SBCL on Linux? 16:59:53 I.e. something I can invoke from init.d that will survive box restarts, etc. 17:00:56 gigamonkey: i use something like 'screen -d -m -S l1sp -c /opt/l1sp/etc/screenrc' in /etc/rc.local for l1sp.org 17:01:21 tcr: should I post to ECL list? 17:01:22 the screenrc sets up the sbcl home, path, etc, and starts the pre-dumped (with buildapp) webserver binary. 17:01:55 ZabaQ: Yeah 17:02:09 ZabaQ: It's available from gmane in case that makes it easier for you 17:02:53 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@saga.ftbfs.de] has joined #lisp 17:04:10 Xach: buildapp is basically something that handles the gorp around save-lisp-and-die? 17:04:17 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:22 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:04:44 gigamonkey: yeah. http://xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ has the scoop. 17:04:53 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:54 Yeah, found it. 17:05:29 -!- konr` is now known as konr 17:05:30 How portable are the imagaes built with buildapp? 17:05:37 I.e. can I move from one x86 machine to another? 17:05:52 gigamonkey: I think they would need the same operating system. 17:05:53 trittweiler [~tcr@atradig113.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 17:06:00 And are they completely self-contained (i.e. can I mave it to a machine that has no installed SBCL?) 17:06:19 gigamonkey: Other than that, I'm not sure. I haven't tried that kind of thing, yet, but it seems likely to work to me. 17:06:32 gigamonkey: you shouldn't need any other sbcl stuff installed after building. 17:07:03 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:07:11 bet you it doesn't work! 17:07:53 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:08:17 And since it's building an image, after buildapp is run it obvously doesn't need access to the libraries used by the Lisp code. 17:08:29 gigamonkey: that is my sincerest hope. 17:08:40 *leo2007* just finished the clojure presentation 17:08:44 qamikaz [~alper@88.243.242.254] has joined #lisp 17:09:06 xach, gigamonkey: I do this (not for web apps) and it works fine. This meaning building an sbcl executable and executing it on a different system. In fact, i build on ubuntu and execute on caos (sort of like fedora). 17:09:08 Xach: I'll let you know how it works out. I'm going to be deploying a new web site today, if all goes well. 17:09:21 -!- sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has quit [Quit: sellout] 17:09:44 gigamonkey: we do something similar to buildapp, and we do not have sbcl installed on the production server 17:10:19 and have some init.d scripts to use start-stop-daemon on ubuntu to be sure everything comes back up 17:10:41 I'll try to write it up soon 17:12:28 gigamonkey: voting page for Monkeys at Work? 17:14:19 Sort of. A little "express your interest" page plus some more info about Code Quarterly (née Gigamonkeys Quarterly) 17:15:21 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@rrcs-208-125-58-214.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 17:15:38 Xach: and the use of screen is because the Lisp needs somewhere to put the REPL? 17:17:58 gigamonkey: yeah, but also because i do active development on it. so one of the screen windows is emacs, too. 17:18:13 Do your images have SLIME in them? 17:18:18 swank, yes. 17:18:23 Er, yeah. that. 17:18:49 So if you activate the screen running your Lisp are you looking at Emacs? Or a raw REPL or something else? 17:19:51 jhalogen [~jake@cpe-98-154-251-83.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:57 gigamonkey: raw repl in one screen, emacs in another, log tail in another 17:20:38 And those are all started via the 'screen -d -m -S l1sp -c /opt/l1sp/etc/screenrc' ? 17:21:09 Can you send me /opt/l1sp/etc/screenrc (or something like it) to peruse? 17:21:25 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:21:27 Please paste it, if you don't mind. I'd like to see it, too. 17:22:56 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:23:12 sure 17:23:25 http://xach.livejournal.com/215066.html 17:23:40 the "Customizing" section has been replaced with buildapp 17:23:41 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 17:24:05 ace4016 [ace4016@cpe-76-170-134-79.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:11 does anyone really still use livejournal/ 17:24:21 Demosthenes: fewer every day, it seems. 17:24:23 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 17:24:27 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:24:54 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.86.245] has left #lisp 17:24:55 i know myspace is now considered the "ghetto" of the internet ;] 17:25:55 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:37 anyone with experience with cl-lex ? 17:26:55 Xach: thanks for the help. I'm off to the dentest but I'll by trying this out later. 17:27:07 in 2003 lj seemed like a reasonable choice. 17:27:26 if it's good enough for JWZ... 17:27:34 rread_ [~rread@c-98-234-219-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:49 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:29:50 alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:30:20 yeah, i've often meant to start a blog... 17:30:57 -!- rread [~rread@nat/sun/x-epfonlumkmtigtdn] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:30:57 -!- rread_ is now known as rread 17:31:09 Dawgmatix [~Dawgmatix@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:22 now the cool kids use tumblr 17:32:15 eh, whatever. 17:32:29 anyone here using cl-mongo and mongodb? 17:32:45 kehoea [~aidan@cl-372.ede-01.nl.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:01 hello! 17:33:02 a question about the implementation of multiple values: 17:33:18 as far as I can tell, they can reasonably be allocated on the stack, if their number is known 17:33:19 kehoea: Magic. The answer is "magic". 17:34:01 that's a minimally helpful contribution, nyef 17:34:22 kehoea: Or in registers. 17:34:24 i just discovered (multiple-values-list) much to my delight 17:34:27 so; if the user has written multiple-value-bind or multiple-value-setq, we can allocate them on the stack 17:34:35 minimally? that sounds like a challenge 17:34:36 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 17:34:43 kehoea: frodef has a paper explaining how movitz implements multiple values on x86. i found it informative. 17:34:54 www.european-lisp-workshop.org/archives/2004/submissions/Fjeld.pdf is it 17:34:56 Xach: that's great, but how do the real lisps do it? :) 17:35:06 hefner: with flair! 17:35:14 Okay, how's this for a contribution: According to the spec, there are only two ways to -produce- multiple-values, one of which is the function VALUES, and the other of which is the function VALUES-LIST, the latter of which can be reduced to APPLY of #'VALUES. 17:35:28 *kehoea* is aware of this 17:35:43 Therefore, if you pass your function arguments on the stack, the values are -already- stack-allocated. 17:35:51 However many values there are. 17:36:13 yeah 17:36:28 and then you move your stack pointer when you return from #'values or #'values list 17:36:35 and tada! they're no longer stack-allocated 17:36:45 -!- pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:36:54 that PDF only mentions the word multiple with reference to multiple CPUs, Xach 17:36:59 did they evaporate? 17:37:01 pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:01 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: home] 17:37:06 So, SBCL handles this by having two different return conventions. One for a single value and one for multiple values. 17:37:17 the memory manager no longer knows about them, hefner 17:37:26 what memory manager? 17:37:28 kehoea: oops. must be a different frodef paper. 17:37:47 the garbage collector plus the stack implementation, hefner 17:37:48 In both conventions, resetting the stack pointer is the responsibility of the caller, not the callee. 17:37:55 *p_l* had seen support for multiple values done through placing them immediately after return address on the stack. But that was crazy hw support ;-) 17:38:10 anway 17:38:15 anyway, even 17:38:15 And in the multiple-value convention, there's a pointer to where the values are on the stack and a count of the number of arguments. 17:38:31 thanks, nyef 17:39:08 and there's just no worry about that area of the stack being overwritten? 17:40:34 No, because the stack pointer isn't reset until after the values are accounted for. 17:40:40 heh, "stack implementation" 17:41:01 someone kick hefner 17:41:08 -!- qamikaz [~alper@88.243.242.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:41:12 yes, design decisions have to be made for stacks 17:41:23 so make them! 17:43:31 fiveop [~fiveop@g229178004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:43:41 brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has joined #lisp 17:44:28 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 17:45:05 nyef, part of the complexity of it 17:45:26 is that you can have a stack that looks like 17:46:09 (multiple-value-bind (a b c) (function1 (function2 (function3 (values "a" "b" "c"))))) 17:46:12 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:46:37 bah 17:46:48 bad choice of example, those multiple values will be discarded 17:47:33 You've managed to frighten me, btw, but the scenario I'm thinking of involves unwind-protect, and I'm reasonably confident that there's not a problem (or I'd have heard of it already) but I don't know -why- it's not a problem. 17:48:31 -!- silenius [~jl@2a01:238:e100:320:21f:c6ff:fed7:73bb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:38 Oh, right. Because it gets reset to the outbound frame pointer, not to something relative to the inbound frame pointer. 17:48:45 Panic over. 17:48:57 right, here we are: 17:48:58 (multiple-value-bind (a b c) (catch 'M8obyQU (function1 (function2 (function3 (throw 'M8obyQU (values "a" "b" "c"))))))) 17:49:04 -!- splittist_ [~5c6b7ed9@gateway/web/freenode/x-kmvyptbrfubuygjw] has quit [Quit: Don't Panic!] 17:49:51 or (multiple-value-bind (a b c) (catch 'M8obyQU (identity (identity (identity (throw 'M8obyQU (values "a" "b" "c")))))) (list a b c)) 17:49:55 if you want to test it out 17:50:11 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d86.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:12 ... You realize that the compiler can simplify that first case to (let ((a "a") (b "b") (c "c")) and issue a code-deletion note, right? 17:50:13 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:50:35 I do, but that's orthogonal to what I was saying 17:50:52 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:51:04 I suppose the assumption is that the stack won't grow back to the area where the arguments to #'values are 17:52:09 The values are copied around as needed, in whatever form is appropriate (they're kept as a pointer + length pair in some cases for example). 17:54:27 they're moved to the heap? 17:55:06 Only if they end up bound into closed-over variables in a non-dynamic-extent closure. 17:55:06 I don't think those examples show what I think kehoea thinks it does 17:55:59 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:56:00 you don't think that's part of the complexity of it, hefner? 17:56:22 I think that I might have to write that SBCL NLX document sooner rather than later after all. 17:57:09 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:57:45 adiós 17:57:49 -!- kehoea [~aidan@cl-372.ede-01.nl.sixxs.net] has left #lisp 17:57:52 git. 17:58:50 lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:59:02 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:46 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 18:00:11 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-26-154-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:00:34 Ah, found the verbiage I was trying to mis-quote earlier. "implementations are forbidden from defining the failure to signal an error as a useful behavior." 18:01:08 -!- myu2 [~myu2@w179122.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:30 *nuba* having fun with stumpwm atm :D 18:05:50 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082EA9B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:10 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:10 So, given that you can have arbitrary rasterized CLIM regions, thanks to the existence of region-sets, can you get a shaped window in McCLIM by setting its region to a region-set of rectangular areas? 18:07:25 carlocci [~nes@93.37.178.11] has joined #lisp 18:07:40 (That is, does McCLIM interact sanely with shaped windows?) 18:08:41 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:09:06 no, but that would be awesome. 18:11:02 nuba: i've been using stumpwm as my primary window manager for just over a year now, and it's been most excellent. 18:11:23 sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has joined #lisp 18:11:44 ive been meaning to try it since the days of ratpoison 18:12:03 (does setting a window's region directly work at all?) 18:12:51 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 18:12:58 It's defined to, per clim sheet-region. 18:13:01 clim sheet-region 18:13:01 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/7-3.html#_273 18:13:12 I don't know how well that translates to McCLIM, though. 18:13:50 And I also know that I don't even have regions yet for NqCLIM. 18:14:30 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:15:36 finally setting out to slay the dragon? 18:15:59 Something like that. 18:16:35 I finally realized a couple months ago how to slice the CLIM spec so as to have coherently explainable pieces. 18:17:41 But the geometry substrate is still odd-seeming to me. 18:18:16 how so? 18:19:30 Because it's a planar geometry library, a vector graphics package, -and- a mechanism for describing the screen real-estate taken up by a sheet. 18:19:35 (incidentally, any ground-up CLIM-like effort probably ought to expunge +foreground-ink+ and +background-ink+, however amusing it might be that they coincide precisely with the everywhere and nowhere regions) 18:19:51 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.11] has joined #lisp 18:19:56 drewc: xmonad's been good to me, but i reviewed stumpwm 18:20:02 (or vice versa, rather) 18:21:11 stumpwm has it's problems 18:21:25 it crashed on me 3 times during my 6 hour testing window 18:22:39 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@e194-121.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:23:05 splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:23:24 I find I spend more time messing with the interface an setup than in using it. 18:23:44 xmonad's a pita to setup and configure 18:23:59 but i paid on of the devs to write an addon for me thats crucial 18:24:00 Younder: isn't that the point of using Linux anyway? 18:24:07 it's the journey, not the destination. 18:24:10 i have essentially a 3d array of workspaces. 18:24:26 10 levels of 4x4 planes of workspaces, 18:25:05 hefner: not for me. I like exploring Linux, paricularly languages and design, but setup is a pain. 18:25:56 control-arrows navigate the current workspace across the 2d plane (4x4), control-shift arrows navigate Z axis changing planes. makes for great static window placement and task management. 18:26:01 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:12 so *ponder* thats 160 workspaces (or screens, or desktops, whatever you call them) 18:26:14 lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 18:26:26 *sniff* i smell lemons. 18:26:44 i can't hack on xmonad though, i refuse to learn haskell. ;] 18:26:59 stumpwm would be fun, but i don't have time to troubleshoot 18:27:12 Demosthenes, Your loss. Haskell is a interesting language 18:27:38 thats like saying malaria is an interesting disease. 18:27:48 no, i'm kidding.... ;] 18:27:51 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:28:02 but i haven't time. i wanted to learn lisp to interface better with emacs and hack on org-mode 18:28:17 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: home] 18:28:23 i'm still amazed how long it takes to do trivial things in lisp, even though i've grown to like the language 18:28:24 I'd say Prolog and Haskell are amoung the more interesting languages to learn and they reshape the way you think and solve problems. 18:28:33 Demosthenes: thats sounds nice, was it contributed back? 18:28:39 i recently picked up basic prolog for a project ;] 18:28:56 nuba: it was. aavogt added it in originally as MultiDim 18:29:04 *nyef* notes that his list of languages to look at includes Haskell, OCAML, Erlang, and PLT Scheme. 18:29:33 i'm not sure how its progressed since, they may have cleaned it up. 18:29:36 i havent' updated recently 18:29:45 i'll check the git repo 18:29:56 ithink my rev is +1 year old now 18:30:08 don't want to upgrade and break it ;] 18:31:01 and my keybindings are apparently hideous to all the xmonad folks, but i think they make it easy to navigate 18:31:04 Qi has a interesting type inference tequnique. Using the algebraic matcher. Way cleaner than GHC Haskell. 18:31:30 they used to fuss at me on #xmonad, askign how i could track 160 windows... well, out of 10 layers on Z, i've had 6 in use for tasks... 18:32:07 yeah, what you've described seems sane to me 18:32:57 i'm used to have 20+ terms in 3x3 viewports in gnome, using compiz's scale to go back and forth 18:33:01 the core concept is that a 2d plane of windows should focus on one CORE window in the middle for a specific task, and then adjacent windows with subtasks (ie: emacs in the middle, with docs on one side, shell prompt on another) 18:33:16 TASKS are separated across planes 18:33:22 *drewc* has 2 windows open 99% of the time 18:33:30 firefox, emacs.. what else is there? 18:33:32 but im getting tired of moving and resizing windows around, thats why I'm finally trying a tiling window manager 18:33:37 drewc: #lisp and...why bother with more? 18:33:42 so z1 is email/irc/web, its my communications pane, z2 is all vmware, z3 is programming, z4 is ledger, etc 18:33:53 nuba: no movement 18:33:54 ever 18:33:55 Xach: #lisp lives in emacs, of course :) 18:34:04 windows are tiled and most often full screen 18:34:13 Demosthenes: maybe you and nuba can talk to each other about your window setups privately. 18:34:18 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has joined #lisp 18:34:27 single keypresses and random access between windows, none of tha alt-tab through the stack. 18:34:37 drewc: Sensible. 18:34:38 he should join #xmonad ;] 18:34:58 *splittist* deletes his unpublished comment 18:35:26 *hefner* discovers http://sds.podval.org/ocaml-sucks.html and crosses OCaml off his list. 18:35:48 Xach: if i could convince iswitchb to include firefox tabs, i wouldn't need a window manager at all 18:36:26 Jabberwockey [~jens@port-4285.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 18:36:29 lithper2__ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has joined #lisp 18:36:56 ... Isn't there an emacs window manager? 18:36:57 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:37:02 nyef: stumpwm 18:37:15 <_3b> xemacs has one 18:37:21 *hefner* still doesn't get tiling WMs. maximize the things you spend time in, run multiple desktops. Don't punish yourself on the occasions where you really want flexible window placement. And being able to tuck IRC under firefox so you just see the left edge and the bottom few lines is a feature. 18:38:23 It's these danged new-fangled widescreen monitors that break so many fullscreen apps... 18:38:32 (for comfortable reading, that is) 18:38:47 they are the devil, yes. 18:38:58 i dont' want to arrange windows ;] 18:39:00 I should really have gotten a rotatable one, I guess. 18:39:08 What I don't get is focus-follows-mouse. "Yes, let's require that you put a great big mouse cursor right over the input field where you're going to try to type something, just so you can't actually see what you're doing." 18:39:43 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:40:43 <_3b> focus-follow-mouse sounds annoying at the widget level, but is nice at window level so you can type into the window hidden behind firefox without raising it 18:41:50 focus-follows-eyes is another one of those broken focus model ideas. 18:42:04 Because it breaks as soon as you're trying to retype some text. 18:42:08 <_3b> yeah, that sounds harder to get right 18:42:36 tfb_ [~tfb@212.183.140.54] has joined #lisp 18:42:42 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.39] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:42:48 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 18:43:40 separate keyboard for each window? 18:43:43 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-40-228.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:44:05 nyef: focus follows mouse is how things always used to work and it works very well with anything which makes the mouse cursor vanish when ou start typing (which the mac seems to do I've just noticed, though it is poke-to-type) 18:45:22 cool, my first line of lisp: (stumpwm:set-prefix-key (stumpwm:kbd "Pause")) :D 18:46:10 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-22-161.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:46:55 -!- tfb [~tfb@212.183.140.54] has quit [Client Quit] 18:47:59 -!- lithper2__ is now known as litherp2_ 18:48:10 -!- litherp2_ is now known as litherp2 18:48:45 -!- danlei [~user@pD9E2DFF0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:05 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:36 sheesh. I think my first one was (+ 2 2) :p 18:53:19 i don't remember my numbers 18:54:41 *p_l* thinks his was "Hello, World" ;-) 18:55:46 slash_ [~Unknown@p4FF0B0C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:16 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:57:39 *PissedNumlock* thinks it was just a number 18:57:49 actually I could grab my Scheme course and take a look at it 18:58:31 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:59:08 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 18:59:27 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 19:00:04 Is there a common idiom for enforcing a type (or set of constraints) on a slot? 19:00:26 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-53.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:00:37 slot of a class 19:00:39 ? 19:00:40 e.g., using check-type in initialize-instance and all writers? 19:00:41 yes 19:01:25 there is (setf mop:slot-value-using-class) gf 19:03:14 isn't there some :safe option for the class? 19:03:50 doesn't SBCL enforce the :type argument to slot definitions on a optimize safety? 19:03:53 stassats`: Where can I find documentation for that? 19:04:08 minion: AMOP? 19:04:08 AMOP: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 19:04:25 thanks 19:05:34 (setf (sb-pcl::safe-p (find-class 'foo)) t) 19:05:38 austinh: You could add a comment to https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/485718 that you would be interested in that feature as well 19:05:59 (make-instance 'foo :bar "1") -> The value "1" is not of type INTEGER. 19:06:16 I don't know what is the class option 19:06:57 all that doesn't sound like "a common idiom" 19:07:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:07:13 tcr: That's interesting. Thanks. 19:07:26 source says ;; True if the class definition was compiled with a (SAFETY 3) 19:07:28 for safe-p 19:08:18 so a locally (declare (optimize (safety 3))) around the defclass form will do what you want, at least on SBCL 19:08:48 HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:12:21 -!- HET4 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:12:21 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-94-44-32-24.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:17 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:16:28 tcr: Thanks, the 'locally' solution will work for now and I clicked the "affects you" button on bugtracker. 19:16:51 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-157-205.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 19:21:31 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@2002:47f7:69ed:0:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 19:21:51 austinh: you can also subscribe to the bug so you'll get e-mails about its progress 19:22:19 funny, I was just wondering if selecting that "affects you" would result in notification. 19:22:38 nope it's orthogonal afaik 19:25:05 ZabaQ: Don't see any posting from you 19:25:40 dnolen [~dnolen@2002:4613:2d84:1234:223:12ff:fe52:c2f9] has joined #lisp 19:26:07 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:26:38 -!- smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:26:56 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 19:27:11 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has quit [Quit: brennanc] 19:27:50 hmm I hope I'll have access to electricity on my trip to vienna tomorrow 19:27:53 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:29:12 tcr: 'on my trip' as in 'during my journey'? 19:32:59 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-40-246.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:33:49 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-77-172.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:33:55 evening 19:34:28 is that funny save lisp and die logo sbcl's official logo? 19:34:41 Harag: no. 19:34:51 has it got a logo? 19:35:09 Harag: I don't think so. 19:35:14 splittist: in the train I mean 19:36:21 Xach: thanx 19:36:59 a logo might help with proliferation. 19:37:05 *tcr* got the tshirt but in XL or something 19:37:33 tcr: I thought DBahn was pretty good about power points? 19:37:47 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:37:49 I think I ordered L but perhaps american L is like european XL? 19:37:51 Is SCL a fork of CMUCL? 19:37:56 yes 19:37:57 malsyned: yes. 19:38:06 malsyned: doug crosher did a lot of work on CMUCL before he did SCL. 19:38:16 Harag: there is very little official about sbcl. It is a social construct. 19:38:23 slash__ [~Unknown@p4FF0A854.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:35 splittist: Not in my limited experience.. Perhaps things got better 19:39:12 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 19:39:34 Doug answers customer service e-mails from trial download users personally - that surprised me. 19:39:47 tcr: it was just hearsay on my part, I'm afraid. But surely DE would want to put its best foot forward on a service to AT? (: 19:39:56 kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:16 splittist: then no body would be offended if I got non official logo wipped up? 19:41:43 Harag: i will be offended if it does not include a parenthesis, a gun, and a middle finger against a full moon. 19:41:57 bwhahaha 19:42:07 No pressure. 19:42:16 <_3b> what, no wolves or sharks? 19:42:32 Xach: will try to keep all of that in mind ;) 19:42:43 -!- slash_ [~Unknown@p4FF0B0C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:42:59 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:23 splittist: In my experience, good service and DBahn is kind of an oxymoron.... On my return trip from ECLM, because of delay, a voice out of the board loudspeakers said, everyone was granted a free drink at the diner... so went there with my single ticket for two people, but was only granted one drink because I only had ONE ticket 19:44:35 you get free drinks when there's delays? 19:45:00 heh 19:45:09 yeah, a free drink is BAD service? 19:45:17 well it already was > 1h... since some recent european ruling, passengers also have right of return in case of delay 19:45:20 Xach: something like http://www.soundtrackcollector.com/images/movie/large/Bad_taste.jpg ? 19:45:27 tcr: 1 hr is nothing 19:45:30 I got bumped off two flights in a row thanks to delays, and got stuck overnight somewhere, and the person at the counter had to go behind the backs of her managers to give the 8 of us a place to sleep for the night :\ 19:45:44 acela routinely gets delayed 1/2 hour in connecticut 19:45:54 1 hour delays are to be expected 19:46:11 splittist: that's promising 19:46:14 -!- sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has quit [Quit: sellout] 19:46:17 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-40-246.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:30 tcr: Fair enough. I have impossibly high Swiss standards - they apologise for 2 minute delays on 3 hour journeys. 19:47:24 Xach: how does the needed value of SBCL relate to the buildapp-produced executable? 19:47:25 Precise as their watches! 19:47:50 gigamonkey: I don't really understand the question. What is a needed value of SBCL? 19:48:08 er, SBCL_HOME 19:48:20 Look at this http://xach.livejournal.com/215066.html 19:48:25 s/Look/Looking/ 19:49:20 I.e. Given that I've built an app that lives in /some/random/bin/dir/foo what should SBCL_HOME be set to in my init.d script? 19:49:23 gigamonkey: I'm not sure. I suppose that will be needed if you want to (require ...) sbcl contribs after building. 19:49:35 gigamonkey: otherwise i don't think it needs setting at all. 19:49:40 Ah. Good. 19:52:58 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:27 gigamonkey: and if you need such settings, just make a startup script 19:54:22 p_l: yes. I just didn't know what value I needed to set in my script. 19:54:58 I'm building sbcl 1.0.35 and running the tests. It's been stuck here: "; /home/peter/sbcl-1.0.35/tests/alien-bug-2004-10-11.tmp.fasl written ; compilation finished in 0:00:00.006 STYLE-WARNING: The element value 2 is used more than once." for quite some time. 19:54:58 19:55:01 Is that normal? 19:55:03 Snamich [~Snamich@161.210.79.245] has joined #lisp 19:57:47 Xach: you have screens inside screens? 19:59:47 guaqua: no. 20:00:00 guaqua: i have screens inside screen. 20:00:52 Xach: how do you get to those inner screens since they're not explicitly named? 20:00:56 when running screen-command within a screenrc it creates them into the same one? 20:01:14 or does it create extra screen processes to each one? 20:02:18 i.e. screen processes within a screen process? 20:02:21 gigamonkey: "screenrc" isn't a shell script. 20:02:30 oh, right 20:02:31 gigamonkey: those commands are the screen configuration language. 20:02:37 that's nice stuff 20:02:41 gigamonkey: some of it looks shell-scripty, but "screen" is the way to make a window. 20:02:44 or "screen". 20:03:02 i connect and use C-a space or whatever. 20:03:08 "reattach" 20:03:20 -!- oconnore_ [~oconnore_@c-66-31-125-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:03:36 So you connect to the one actual screen that's launched by your shell script. 20:03:45 And then you can switch 'windows' within that screen? 20:03:50 gigamonkey: yes. 20:03:54 Neat. 20:03:58 gigamonkey: new to screen? 20:04:08 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.11] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 20:04:27 *Xach* has been a happy screen customer for many years 20:04:42 having a shell script of sorts to generate a directory skeleton and relevant files would be one thing 20:04:42 C-z is a far better command key for screen than C-a 20:04:47 i'll probably implement that 20:05:05 dlowe: yes. I use that. 20:05:33 if you have your caps lock remapped to control it isn't :) 20:05:44 gigamonkey: if you already know how screen works, i don't understand your questions at all. 20:05:54 I only partly know how it works. 20:06:09 gigamonkey: ah, ok. well, i use it for the multi-window capability a lot. 20:06:26 I've only ever started a name screen so I can reattach to it. 20:06:35 Was completely unaware of the multi-window capabalities. 20:06:53 *Xach* often has 8 or 9 shells in a session and has to periodically prune them 20:06:56 you can also name the windows (C-a a) 20:07:10 guaqua: That's the beginning-of-line command! 20:07:13 Okay, so no one has any ideas why my sbcl 1.0.35 tests are seemingly stuck (but eating a ton of CPU)? 20:07:13 and jump directly using numbers 20:07:22 Xach: oops, C-a A 20:07:31 gigamonkey: I have nothing, sorry. 20:07:43 and also have the names of the windows shown at the bottom 20:07:44 guaqua: that's why C-z strikes me as a better choice than C-a, less emacs interference. 20:07:59 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 20:08:04 gigamonkey: that's true 20:08:43 I think I'd use something like C-\ since it's pretty rare to want to send the QUIT signal, or to call toggle-input-method in emacs. 20:08:58 gigamonkey, can you C-c the test and use the debugger to inspect what's going on? 20:09:18 i have too much keyboard customization, way too much... 20:09:20 malsyned: sorry, too late. I killed it and started over. 20:09:25 there's also a tiling wm for console 20:09:29 I'll do that if I get stuck again. 20:10:13 malsyned: well, I've been pretty well trained *not* to hit C-z in emacs since it typically iconifies my window which is never what I want. 20:10:28 -!- rjschave [~rjschave@d149-67-38-179.col.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:10:57 Anyone else have problems with the STOP method in Hunchentoot 1.1.0 hanging? 20:11:13 gigamonkey, yeah, that's pretty obnoxious in a window system, but on the console C-z is downright handy sometimes for those of us who, for whatever reason, like to leave emacs from time to time. 20:11:16 rjschave [~rjschave@d149-67-38-179.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:30 malsyned: good point. 20:11:52 Except you have now identified yourself as an apostate. 20:12:05 "Leave emacs", hrumph. 20:12:28 I thought I almost caught drewc earlier, but he talked his way out of it. 20:12:57 Nope, you caught me, fair and square. 20:15:19 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:15:38 gigamonkey: add `:ready-only t' to the wait-for-input call in acceptor.lisp 20:16:55 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:09 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@161.210.79.245] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 20:18:58 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:19:02 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:19:26 malsyned: the better way is to open a new window, since you're in screen anyway 20:19:38 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Make a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night. Set him alight, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life!] 20:19:46 dlowe, you've got me there. 20:20:05 Snamich [~Snamich@161.210.79.245] has joined #lisp 20:20:16 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 20:20:57 *Xach* got a nastygram from gavino because of the lisp-related google results for a search for "gavin schuette" 20:22:58 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:23:17 The 'Owner of geocities.net'? 20:23:52 I've forgotten the name of the guy who had terrible punctuation abuse 20:25:03 davazp [~user@83.46.0.116] has joined #lisp 20:25:24 adeht: seems like ready-only t is already there 20:25:32 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-53.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:25:33 -!- brandonedens [~brandon@pool-96-253-61-205.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:26:02 Krystof: sean champ? 20:26:13 that's the one 20:26:54 he has disappeared from the lisp universe, as far as i can tell. 20:28:01 years ago 20:28:34 Xach: Do I need to do something with buildapp to tell it not to exit if there are other threads (such as Hunchentoot threads) running? 20:29:41 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-68.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:29:45 gigamonkey: heh, right.. bah, I hate darcs 20:30:17 gigamonkey: Normally threads would be started by some startup function, not in the load-and-configure buildapp stage. 20:30:29 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:30:37 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:30:47 -!- konr [~user@187.117.102.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:52 Xach: right. It just seems like my executable is quitting at the end of the entry function even though that function started a server. 20:30:59 Xach: when you write this all up for Code Quarterly, what will you entitle it? 20:31:01 gigamonkey: Well, don't return :) 20:31:14 konr [~user@187.117.102.89] has joined #lisp 20:31:17 gigamonkey: you could start a repl, for example. 20:31:36 Hmmm. 20:32:28 splittist: I'll probably work this up into a comprehensive suite of website tools called Another Reach for the Champshionship, or "Arc". 20:32:30 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-55-212-76.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:39 and write about that. 20:33:57 antifuchs: here? 20:34:30 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:34:38 So supposing I don't want to start a REPL, what's the best way to just block a thread forever. 20:34:38 -!- j0be [~j0be@ke-works-1.starters.tudelft.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115144158]] 20:35:26 gigamonkey: (loop (sleep *forever*)) maybe? 20:35:57 (thread-join *current-thread*) 20:36:35 deadlock wins :) 20:37:02 fe[nl]ix: Any idea regarding public transportation ticket? The hotel seems so central that I'm not sure it'll make sense 20:37:22 I'm not going to worry about it today 20:38:16 -!- slash__ [~Unknown@p4FF0A854.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:38:46 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38:56 rread_ [~rread@192.18.41.196] has joined #lisp 20:39:19 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-184-206-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:57 -!- frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sout4-0-0-cust13.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:40:02 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:40:24 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:00 -!- djm [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:41:48 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:42:10 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-245-224.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 20:42:46 Is it possible that compiling sbcl 1.0.35 with 1.0.28 is going to not work so well? 20:43:02 The tests keep hanging, though in a different place this time. 20:43:32 pjb` [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:38 -!- pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:00 shouldn't be an issue. 20:44:01 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-44-82-249-245-224.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:41 Xach: success! buildapp server running and serving pages. 20:44:59 dabd [~dabd@a85-139-97-227.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:45:07 gigamonkey: cool. built on one, running on another? 20:45:36 Nah, just running locally. That other doesn't actually matter. Though I guess I could give it a whirl. 20:46:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:46:51 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:47:05 djm_ [~djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has joined #lisp 20:50:37 gavino's new blog is... interesting. 20:53:15 hefner: url? 20:53:41 oh no :( 20:54:06 He's worse than Xah :( 20:54:23 Not possible! 20:55:56 Xah at least puts useful information on the web. Just today, his page taught me some dired command. 20:56:33 Xah also thinks that elisp could be the next great language 20:57:22 and he thinks that the solution to the population crisis should be war 20:59:50 and will also boost technology, win-win 21:00:27 gigamonkey: http://technoninja.blogspot.com/ (rumored to be gavino, anyway) 21:00:45 So it is possible that whatever happens in the tests after "/home/peter/sbcl-1.0.34/tests/alien-bug-2004-10-11.tmp.fasl written" just takes a really long time? 21:01:05 hefner, the mixture of clueless musings about lisp and linux fits gavino like a straightjacket and padded walls 21:01:17 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:18 I'm seemingly stuck there again. I can C-c out but with the debugger disabled all I'll get is a stack trace. 21:01:22 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 21:02:00 prxq [~mommer@f050241040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:02:09 hi 21:02:36 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.3] has joined #lisp 21:02:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:49 brandonedens [~brandon@wsip-70-184-10-225.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:06 Oh, and I'm now compiling/testing 1.0.34 to see if that makes a difference. 21:03:21 why is it that on www.sbcl.org, the x86_64 sbcl always trails the newest version by so much? 21:03:43 because using precompiled binaries is for wusses 21:04:08 Krystof: good one. 21:04:17 now, for proselytism purposes... 21:04:31 because we don't get bug reports about compile failures unless we force our users to actually compile the thing 21:04:48 Krystof: what does it take to generate uploadable binarys? 21:04:53 sh ./make.sh 21:05:09 Just don't run the tests, apparently. ;-) 21:05:12 and finding someone willing to upload the resulting binary 21:05:27 marioxcc [~user@201.132.83.180] has joined #lisp 21:05:50 Krystof: I have an account on souceforge... :-) 21:06:49 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@131.104.13.216] has joined #lisp 21:06:54 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d86.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:00 I don't really understand why people want binaries anyway 21:07:11 I certainly don't want to encourage it 21:07:20 Krystof: hm? 21:07:42 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:44 you would have to download some other lisp to build the latest sources 21:07:58 -!- djm_ is now known as djm 21:08:11 tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:11 even better; they'd get reports about clisp and ccl cross-compile failures 21:08:24 or use the one that you've already got 21:08:45 Xach: so copying my executable to a different box didn't work "cannot execute binary file" But come to think of it my VPS may be x86 rather than x86-64. 21:09:02 well we want to incentivize linux distributions to ship an existing lisp ;) 21:09:10 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:17 in the exceptional case of "no lisp present on this system at all", you can take the sbcl binary, however old, for your platform 21:09:29 so that sbcl users can (cross)compile 21:10:54 I hear occasionally that clisp can't compile SBCL... worked fine for me the other day 21:10:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:11:18 took its sweet time, though 21:11:19 Krystof: taking your idea a step further, you could stop doing releases entirely 21:11:26 Krystof: what is exactly the reason for not offering a binary of the latest sbcl on x86_64? There is one for x86 21:11:55 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:12:10 I would be willing to build & upload the thing every time a new one is out. 21:12:33 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-122-115.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:10 I'd welcome that 21:13:33 The way the download table is conflated with the supported vs. in progress vs. not available data, for the longest time I thought that the version numbers in the table indicated the more recent recommended version for that platform. 21:13:46 that would make it easier for distros to include up-to-date SBCL binaries 21:14:04 Adlai: no it wouldn't. distros all compile their own 21:14:53 foom, I wouldn't be surprised if most do, but wouldn't it lower the barrier of continuation for lazy maintainers? 21:14:56 Any advice how to debug this SBCL test hang? Or do I just assume that 1.0.35 is fine and ignore the tests? 21:14:59 prxq: unless Krystof is really opposed to anyone uploading binaries (rather than just being grumpy), just give me your sf.net username, and I'll add you to the project 21:15:08 Providing a free lisp is a surprisingly difficult task. 21:15:09 I've got it hung as we speak (in 1.0.34) 21:16:08 Adlai: all distros worth caring about require that all their binaries be built from the corresponding source code, and not downloaded separately. 21:16:45 grumpiness is the new froodiness 21:17:08 I have no objection to Other People doing work that they think is worthwhile 21:17:12 foom, ok, my "yearning for knowledge" aka gaping ignorance reveals itself yet again 21:18:00 rme: you guys even have an income stream! 21:18:07 well, I presume you do. Or did. 21:18:16 Happy new year 21:18:53 you're better at getting your user community to chip in 21:19:21 nyef: ping 21:21:16 gigamonkey pasted "Frozen test backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95619 21:22:00 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 21:23:00 robwolfe [~rw@ip-79-175-248-34.cable.smsnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:23:35 Does that backtrace tell anyone anything? Or is there some other information I could gather? 21:23:43 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:55 gigamonkey: unfortunately I think that's the backtrace from the parent process, not the child that would be running the actual tests 21:24:29 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:24:37 does "run-tests.sh alien.impure.lisp" also hang? 21:24:58 -!- splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: who uses 'froodiness' with only one head?] 21:24:58 Let me check. 21:25:39 jsnell: nope. 21:25:53 wrt distributing a lisp, I would like to be clear that I appreciate that users want an easy way to get the software. On the other hand, it's a lot of work to make binaries for a bunch of platforms, and keeping them up-to-date with bug fixes (or providing patches as fasl files or whatever) is even more work. 21:26:56 gigamonkey: ok, how about 'run-tests.sh *.pure.lisp *.impure.lisp'? 21:27:04 coming up 21:28:02 (1.0.35 is almost certainly ok, but the test failing alone suggests that there's some kind of leakage from the earlier tests into the later ones) 21:28:18 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 21:28:19 You mean the test succeeding alone, right? 21:28:24 -!- robwolfe [~rw@ip-79-175-248-34.cable.smsnet.pl] has left #lisp 21:28:30 well, failing to fail :-) 21:28:50 What I strive for every day! 21:29:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:29:19 -!- Snamich [~Snamich@161.210.79.245] has quit [Quit: Snamich] 21:29:22 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:50 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:29:56 Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:29:59 factor has an interesting release policy of an extensive and *cough* reliable testsuite, an autobuild farm, and just linking to the latest autobuilt binary that passed the tests on a platform. and then very rare numbered releases 21:31:58 rme: you need a way to render the whole process automatic. 21:32:02 -!- Darxus [~darxus@panic.chaosreigns.com] has left #lisp 21:32:30 it's not a technical problem, it's a social problem 21:32:32 tcr: here now (: 21:32:40 more time should be put into talking about what has been done and why 21:32:51 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6/20100115132715]] 21:32:55 it would gather a whole lot more interest on the releases themselves 21:33:11 isn't ccl one of those lisps that builds only with exactly the right version of itself? 21:33:22 antifuchs: Ah well, I wanted to ask about pub transp ticket, but I'll just figure it out tomorrow 21:33:31 ah, ok 21:33:42 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:33:45 there's a 72 hour ticket which is probably a good deal 21:34:04 gigamonkey annotated #95619 "uh oh, GC invariant lost" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95619#1 21:34:05 you can get it at all automatic ticket machines (they come with a touchscreen and decent usability) 21:34:11 you can automatize everything, but then people don't take personal responsibility and make sure the released piece of software is being patched and supported 21:34:22 antifuchs: kk. See you saturday. I'm off now. 21:34:42 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:34:46 guaqua: if it passes its test suite, why do you need more? 21:34:48 jsnell: yes, ccl needs to compile itself with a compatible ccl. 21:34:48 but i guess this is today. everything is pulled from version control systems and continuously built and tested 21:35:07 foom: and when something goes broke, you just tell the users to wait for the next version? 21:35:18 i just find the process so apersonal 21:35:19 no, the users fix it themselves! 21:35:21 slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:25 guaqua: what Krystof said 21:35:27 too technical 21:35:46 in particular newbies appreciate not having to stumble over faulty stuff (not sbcl, but other things) 21:35:46 well, you don't need a test suite, users is a test suite 21:35:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-014.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:35:51 the open source fairy fixes it. 21:36:00 gigamonkey annotated #95619 "following that got this which now seems hung" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95619#2 21:36:07 guaqua: if none of the developers use it on the platform that broke, all they can do is make it obvious that it *is* broke and wait for someone to fix it 21:36:12 if the open source fairy doesn't, then it wasn't really a problem 21:36:16 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 21:36:21 *Krystof* defines problems away 21:36:42 lemonodor [~lemonodor@144.198.182.10] has joined #lisp 21:36:44 that's what continuous build tools are good for: getting the information about what is broke in the hands of people who care. 21:36:45 Running run-test.sh clos.impure.lisp by itself works. 21:36:46 it really helps if there is not a ramshackle aura around whatever you are trying to sell 21:36:47 -!- X-02 [~schopenha@91.106.206.16] has left #lisp 21:36:50 there's off course a conflict between releasing often and in the open and doing big releases less often. development might stagnate etc 21:36:59 didn't CCL compile with a "recent enough version of CCL compared to version being built"? 21:37:18 foom: my point was, they're merely tools. they don't need to define the release cycle and process 21:37:40 ccl compiles with the ccl binaries that are checked into svn along with the sources 21:37:46 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:38:00 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:38:08 so, is it as insane as CMUCL? 21:38:59 *p_l* once looked into bootstrapping CMUCL from scratch and the first cursory look suggested "Find a PDP-10 with Maclisp" 21:39:01 gigamonkey: ok, the next step would be a binary search on the *.pure files to figure out which one is causing the issues (my guess would be that if you run [a-qsu-z]*.pure.lisp *.impure.lisp, things are fine) 21:39:36 It seems straightforward to me, but maybe I'm insane. 21:40:27 You can't build it from nothing, so if that's insane, I guess it is. 21:40:54 rme: just checking if it requires a "recent version of itself" or some crazy hotpatching dance 21:40:56 you can't build anything from nothing, unless you could gcc as nothing (which most people do. :p) 21:41:25 well, cmucl didn't check bootstrapping binaries into svn, so there the process was necessarily more complicated 21:41:26 jsnell: did you notice that "GC invariant lost" I pasted? 21:41:27 foom: tell that to Knuth 21:41:29 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:41:51 gigamonkey: yes, I assume it's the same root cause 21:42:18 someone suggested that bootstrapping GCC from source without recent GCC requires grabbing a copy of GCC 2.6.x and chain-building major versions from that ;-) 21:42:38 (assuming that you have an ANSI C compiler) 21:42:45 it is probably true 21:42:52 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:06 -!- pjb` [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:29 pjb` [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:20 but the bigger question when you have to compile with a single known good version is confidence in that you're actually compiling what you think you are. what if something ends up in the target image that's no longer part of the source 21:44:33 and not just in a "reflections on trusting trust" sense 21:44:49 Using bc.. doing sqrt(1) gives 1. Is there a way to make to foating pont or is it broken? 21:44:58 floating 21:45:10 jsnell, you mean in the "reflections on trusting CMUCL" sense? 21:45:52 jsnell: so [a-qsu-z]*.pure.lisp alien.impure.lisp worked. 21:46:16 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:46:21 but like that case where CMUCL had started miscompiling stuff. and things got backed out, and recompiled, until everything remotely related to the compiler was backed out to a known good version. and it was still buggy 21:46:58 so the buggy compiler had infected it's offspring, and a working compiler could no longer be produced without starting from some earlier image 21:47:16 a mess squared 21:47:42 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.3] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 21:47:47 aoriste [~user@lnk2-themill-gw.binary.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:34 gigamonkey: ok, there's probably something funny going on with fork and either run-program or threads 21:49:13 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:39 -!- bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:49:54 mmap: Cannot allocate memory 21:49:54 ::: UNEXPECTED-FAILURE SYMBOL-VALUE-IN-THREAD.8 21:49:54 21:50:29 -!- aoriste [~user@lnk2-themill-gw.binary.net] has left #lisp 21:50:52 timor [~timor@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:51:28 jsnell: that story reminds me of ken thompsons turing award lecture 21:51:49 gigamonkey: that's coming from the same run? I guess I'll have a look at running the tests once I get home 21:51:54 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:52:21 jsnell: a run with basically [rt]*.pure.lisp alien.impure.lisp 21:52:31 Except I might have removed types.pure.lisp because it takes so long. 21:52:31 gigamonkey: ah, much better 21:52:48 jcowan [~jcowan@2620:0:1003:1005:21a:a0ff:fe13:f0c0] has joined #lisp 21:52:58 prxq: that's why jsnell mentioned "reflections on trusting trust" 21:53:30 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-195-12.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:33 adeht: duh 21:53:49 it's probably some interaction of threads or run-program or fork. should probably just not have pure tests start threads 21:54:19 So running just threads.pure.lisp gets failures. 21:54:35 With those mmap: Cannot allocate memory messages. 21:54:58 prxq: yeah, but "reflections on trusting trust" is about intentional and covert changes. that's not as worrying as unwittingly poisoning all of your future images with a buggy compiler 21:55:49 huh. are you running with swap off, or small ulimits, or something like that? 21:55:51 So how worried should I be that I can't pass threads.pure.lisp without failures if I'm planning to use this Lisp to run a threaded Hunchentoot? 21:56:00 jsnell: heck if I know. 21:56:06 Let me investigate. 21:56:21 gigamonkey, is this on x86_64? do you get the same problems on x86? 21:56:33 swap has somehow managed to get turned off on the VPS before. 21:56:41 How do I tell? 21:56:49 ooh, this is a VPS? 21:56:52 yeah. 21:56:57 gigamonkey: free 21:57:24 some of them seem to have very funky memory management configurations 21:57:26 gigamonkey annotated #95619 "free output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95619#3 21:57:31 gruseom [~daniel@h2-72.wlan.ucalgary.ca] has joined #lisp 21:57:37 gigamonkey, uname -m 21:57:52 Linux vps 2.6.18-6-xen-686 #1 SMP Sat Jun 7 02:07:48 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux 21:58:09 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:58:11 Well, this is a tech.coop VPS so I'd hope it can run SBCL. 21:58:29 that looks small enough that I could believe it's just running out of memory while running the tests 21:59:03 -!- pjb` [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:59:16 pjb` [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:18 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:00:26 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:00:34 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 22:00:56 So I'm reading that free output right: it's 256M of RAM and 512M of swap, right? 22:01:31 gigamonkey, correct 22:01:50 Well, that's at least what I think I'm paying for. So that's good. 22:02:48 jsnell: so are the tests particularly stressful. So this might well not be a problem in actual use? 22:03:25 I guess my real question is: given all this, am I better off upgrading to 1.0.35 or keeping with the 1.0.28 that I've had forever. 22:03:25 the tests tend to be a lot more brutal than real uses, yes 22:04:13 I wouldn't hold off on upgrading due to that 22:04:22 Okay. 22:04:43 i'm already up on 1.0.35 and it runs outta heap anyway :P 22:04:50 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.14.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:06:43 bipt [bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:03 fe[nl]ix: Pong. 22:08:54 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:09:52 nyef: the only nuisance of the exec daemon approach that comes to my mind is that the child will see the daemon as its parent, i.e. there's no way to deceive getppid() 22:09:59 nyef: can you think of others ? 22:10:06 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:10:22 gigamonkey: I dunno if it existed (or manifested itself) back in 1.0.28, but I'm a bit annoyed about that package lock issue 22:10:25 Is there a public nuts and bolts comparison of the various implementations out there, and if so, where? 22:10:27 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:53 jcowan: there's dlw's page 22:11:02 fe[nl]ix: what if it got detached then another process waited for it? 22:11:21 adeht: worst case, it's not hard to hot-patch the lock away. 22:11:26 fe[nl]ix: Thanks. URL? 22:11:28 p_l: detached from what ? 22:11:47 but the span of the critical region is pretty suspect. 22:11:53 fe[nl]ix: Do you still get process stop / death notifications? 22:12:06 jcowan: http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html 22:12:13 fe[nl]ix: from parent 22:12:43 p_l: how can that happen ? 22:12:54 nyef: I don't understand the question 22:13:54 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:10 fe[nl]ix: When a process dies, there's the notification to the parent via SIGCHLD / waitpid(). Does that (or some similar) notification still happen via the exec daemon? 22:14:21 nyef: yes 22:14:22 The process stop thing is more for ptrace, it appears. 22:16:05 ... Only other thing that comes to mind is process groups, sessions, and controlling terminals. 22:16:22 -!- ryepup [~ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 22:16:28 And I'm not about to try and think through possible issues there. 22:16:45 nyef: what is a "session" exactly ? 22:16:56 -!- racecondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:17:07 Not sure, but has something to do with process groups and terminals. 22:17:37 -!- smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:17:44 smanek [~smanek@63.74.178.2] has joined #lisp 22:18:01 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:37 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@131.104.13.216] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:18:40 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.179.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:19:17 lispm [~joswig@e177148073.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:20:19 nyef: I updated the PROTOCOL file 22:21:41 *fe[nl]ix* is AFK for 30 minutes 22:22:24 -!- HET3 [~diman@w283.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:27:01 enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.11] has joined #lisp 22:27:25 #+(and) (progn #+ #.(cl:print cl:nil) 1) is print supposed to run here? 22:27:36 s/(and)/(or)/ 22:27:53 it does in sbcl 22:28:44 Sessions are not process groups. 22:29:17 Or more accurately, sessions are SysV "process groups", as distinct from (BSD) process groups. 22:30:31 When you start a new session, you no longer have a controlling terminal, which means ^C and ^Z will not deliver signals to you. 22:30:32 process groups and sessions has got to be the most screwed up API in all of posix. 22:30:41 and controlling terminals 22:31:24 If you then open a terminal device, it will become your controlling terminal. 22:31:35 yeah, O_NOCTTY -- seriously? 22:32:12 The typical case (outside the init system) is for a daemon to call setsid() so that it will no longer be killed by ^C at the starting terminal. 22:32:53 Sorry, that's ^C and ^\. ^Z is a process-group notion: it sends SIGTSTP to all processes in the foreground process group. 22:33:26 I'm pretty sure ^C and ^\ only sends to the foreground process group too 22:33:50 -!- tsuru`` [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:34:07 but there's no way you could design this stuff to be more confusing if you tried. :) 22:36:15 what does happen, though, is if the controlling terminal goes away, it will SIGHUP everything in the session 22:36:49 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-214-250.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 22:37:04 (or something like that, I think there's some complicated details there too) 22:38:09 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-157-205.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:38:33 unicode [~user@95.214.95.196] has joined #lisp 22:39:15 -!- prxq [~mommer@f050241040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:44:44 nohup? 22:45:18 -!- alley_cat [~AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:45:53 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-046-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:30 clhs #. 22:46:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 22:47:27 stassats`: #. is controled by *read-eval* ; #+ and #- control *read-suppress* ; so they're orthogonal. 22:47:31 brennanc [~brennanc@65.203.131.114] has joined #lisp 22:47:34 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-046-017.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 22:48:03 pjb: different implementations give different results 22:48:28 I would expect it to print everywhere... 22:48:36 how do I alias functions so I can call the same function but with a different name 22:48:54 for example, if the name is really long and I want something shorter 22:49:00 (setf (symbol-function 'a) (symbol-function 'b)) 22:49:06 thanks 22:49:18 brennanc: of course, you wrap that in a defalias macro. 22:49:36 You may also want to copy over the documentation, etc. 22:49:53 but that wont reflect redefinitions of function b 22:50:06 k 22:50:57 brennanc: if the name is really long, use autocompletion 22:52:06 having to hit alt-tab on the keyboard forces me to really shift my hand a lot and is really cumbersome 22:52:21 I use `C-c C-i' 22:52:46 you can, of course, set up your own keybinding 22:52:52 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:58 hmm, good idea. I gotta learn emacs better. :) 22:54:11 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:54:14 aoriste [~user@lnk2-themill-gw.binary.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:46 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@g229178004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:54:59 implementations don't agree on (let ((*read-suppress* t)) (read-from-string "#.(cl:print :a) 10 20") (read-from-string "#+ #.(cl:print :b) 10 20")) 22:55:36 nowhere_man [~pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:10 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:57:03 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 22:58:42 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:59:04 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:08 billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-205-231-150-219.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:08 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@dsl-205-231-150-219.taconic.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:00:08 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 23:00:20 -!- pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00:35 pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:22 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:03:39 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:03:56 jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:06 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:09 anyone got any tips on using emacs / slime through the os x terminal? I'd like to use command as meta in emacs but keep command as normal in all other apps. 23:05:36 using alt is a bit of a pain to press 23:05:55 Ooh. So, if you kill both *read-eval* and *read-suppress*, should #. still signal an error? 23:06:11 brennanc: Use ESC instead? 23:06:19 brennanc: Alternately, don't use the OSX terminal emacs? 23:06:41 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:09 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:07:19 -!- TDT [~user@173-17-83-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:33 is it difficult to be able to use the native emacs on my desktop (that works with command as meta) and then connect remotely to my server to edit files and use slime? 23:07:51 I understand slime / swank is client / server but not sure about editing the files 23:08:33 Typically, one either arranges for the filesystem to be shared, or one uses tramp. 23:09:00 OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:11:20 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:13:16 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:13:21 -!- OmniMancer1 [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:16:26 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: gz] 23:17:32 -!- danly [~danleslie@S010600259c4d3771.vs.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: danly] 23:19:22 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:19:26 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 23:19:41 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:19:53 You know what's missing from the CLIM geometry substrate? Bezier curves. 23:20:28 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has joined #lisp 23:20:51 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:21:39 danly [~danleslie@S010600259c4d3771.vs.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:35 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:12 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:58 mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.74.25] has joined #lisp 23:25:12 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:25:31 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:19 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:27:41 it's not clear they'll catch on 23:28:43 -!- lispm [~joswig@e177148073.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:15 -!- enthymene [~kraken@130.166.209.11] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 23:31:29 Riight. 23:34:21 specbot: clhs destructuring-bind 23:34:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm 23:35:46 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:52 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:37:55 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.235.140] has left #lisp 23:38:40 -!- marioxcc is now known as marioxcc-AFK 23:38:51 konr` [~user@187.88.52.121] has joined #lisp 23:40:08 -!- konr [~user@187.117.102.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:40:44 Macro and destructuring lambda lists still require that no variable appear more than once, right? I can't find actual language to that effect. 23:43:35 ... Where's the language that you can't even have that in a normal lambda list? 23:43:55 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-40-45.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 23:45:49 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-40-228.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:46:05 Bindings are clearly processed left-to-right, and in a manner consistent with LET* (that is, serially, for use by defaulted values and &aux values). 23:47:10 -!- pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:20 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 23:47:24 -!- moocow [~new@64.151.208.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:33 Okay, it'd be a little odd to do that within the required part of a lambda list, as they can't default values, but I'm still not seeing the language forbidding it. 23:47:40 -!- reprore_ [~reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:55 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:48:14 pjb [~t@99.Red-79-149-19.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:12 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@apn-89-223-214-250.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:51:04 Skewb [~Skewb@83.231.81.22] has joined #lisp 23:53:06 nyef: I'm getting more confused: setpgrp(2) says "If setpgid() is used to move a process from one process group to another (as is done by some shells when creating pipelines), both process groups must be part of the same session" 23:54:00 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@202.36.179.65] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:54:29 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:54 I have -no- clue. 23:55:09 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-170-54.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:55:11 I haven't even looked at this stuff in ages. 23:55:12 fe[nl]ix: it's easier if you remember that process groups and sessions were *only* invented for shell job control. 23:55:26 fe[nl]ix: if they happen to do anything else at all, that's just a happy accident. 23:56:11 foom: that may be comforting, but I'd still like to know that they do :) 23:57:30 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++]