00:04:08 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:04:41 wvdschel: well, good luck with your project. You could take a quick try at grabbing one of the Windows versions here http://www.gigamonkeys.com/lispbox/ 00:04:53 They're a bit out of date but should work at least as well as what you've got now. 00:05:16 If all goes well, it should Just Work. If not, bail and finish your project. 00:07:33 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 00:08:32 gigamonkey: would it allow me to use the version of SBCL I have installed? 00:18:56 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:19:23 abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:01 -!- milanj [~milan@93.86.241.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:22:15 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:22:29 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:23:15 -!- osaka [~fkn@pool-71-100-37-50.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:23:30 -!- lithper2_ [~chatzilla@72.8.31.30] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]] 00:23:50 karme [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-171-082.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:29:14 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit 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Together they fight crime!] 02:46:21 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:26 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rickmode] 02:47:35 -!- skeptomai [~cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [Quit: Ok, I'm outta here] 02:50:18 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-204-185.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:50:37 -!- marioxcc-AFK is now known as marioxcc 02:57:28 zoe [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:44 Smushers [~njyoder@106.sub-97-240-118.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:12 -!- Smushers [~njyoder@106.sub-97-240-118.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:06:25 -!- demmeln1 [~Adium@dslb-094-216-055-076.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 03:10:06 SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:40 -!- kglovern [~kglovern@CPE001d725da193-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 03:15:44 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:15:55 -!- rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-76-167-41-163.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:17:50 bytecolo` [~user@adsl-70-133-76-237.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:50 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:18:02 daniel [~daniel@p5082F437.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:12 -!- Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:21:50 -!- oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:22:31 oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:18 TR2N [email@89-180-183-231.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 03:25:11 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082F437.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:25:11 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:25:11 -!- bytecolor [~user@70.133.76.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:26:30 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:02 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:14 cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has joined #lisp 03:33:13 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@202.3.77.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:33:31 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-183-231.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:34:14 parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:35 TR2N [email@89.180.230.255] has joined #lisp 03:36:34 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:38:59 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40:58 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 03:44:55 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:50 -!- JonSmith [~jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:55:13 -!- abugosh [~Adium@216-164-114-53.c3-0.tlg-ubr3.atw-tlg.pa.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:57:47 -!- pinterface1 [~pinterfac@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 03:58:03 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8FD6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:58:13 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:24 -!- dreish [~dreish@2002:cf8a:2fad:0:21f:5bff:fe35:ae0d] has quit [Quit: dreish] 04:04:00 Haskell has got to be the most difficult language to learn... ever 04:04:47 -!- bytecolo` is now known as bytecolor 04:05:03 benny [~benny@i577A856E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:10:16 haskell nomads 04:13:21 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:13:25 anyone know of a paper on packrat parsing the describes *just* the algorithm? Found one implemented in Haskell. Haskell is impossible to follow. Found one implementd in Java. The sight of Java code makes me phisically ill. Found another in Scheme. That one is the `best'. It implements a json parser that takes 200 lines of code. *200* to parse json. And that's _with_ the parser abstractions. 04:16:19 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:49 haskell isn't really that bad, when well written 04:20:23 oh, can't forget cl-peg, that one uses yacc *and* pcre ??? 04:20:39 Ralith: I'm just ranting, sorry for the channel fodder 04:22:56 -!- dabd [~dabd@a85-139-101-228.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:24:32 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 04:32:09 lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-254-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:22 -!- pnq [~gaiug@AC822F6C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]] 04:36:13 nunb [~nundan@59.178.183.192] has joined #lisp 04:36:45 -!- lpolzer__ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-198-080.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:36:59 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-12-213.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 04:38:52 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-22-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:41:46 *adu* <3 Haskell 04:42:56 -!- cognizant-cog [~chatzilla@24.143.26.144] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838]] 04:44:01 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-243-237-77.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:51:35 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 04:54:14 -!- l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:10:17 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:12:37 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:13:45 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.23.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:16:18 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-4.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:18:39 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@12.154.28.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:23:13 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:26:24 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 05:33:31 -!- frgo [~frgo@p5B16BC73.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:34:27 potatishandlarn [~potatisha@c-4f662d86-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 05:36:00 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:37:58 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:44:36 -!- ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has left #lisp 05:45:00 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:46:55 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:30 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440197.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 06:01:53 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:10:37 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@157.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:13:18 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 06:14:21 Soulman [~kvirc@154.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:53 anyone playing with mongodb or couchdb? 06:22:33 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:23:01 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:16 Demosthenes: I looked at couchdb a tiny bit. And my neighbor was one of the authors of the recent O'Reilly book on it. 06:33:26 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:33:52 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:17 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 06:38:44 -!- nunb [~nundan@59.178.183.192] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:41:09 gigamonkey: nice! i just find myself in need of a schemaless db where each row is made of k/v pairs... 06:45:12 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:46:07 Of course after I looked at it for a while I decided it'd be more fun to build one myself in CL. 06:46:21 And further of course, that project is now languishing an a semi-completed state. 06:50:10 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:50:44 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 07:02:50 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:03:06 ska` [~user@124.157.214.197] has joined #lisp 07:04:02 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:04:37 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:10:37 ak70` [~user@85.232.201.18] has joined #lisp 07:14:20 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:14:40 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.140.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:15:08 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-9-227.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:15:46 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:21:19 Bah. OT but any GIMP users in the house? 07:23:17 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-60-98.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:24:15 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.214.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:25:37 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:27:26 -!- parolang [~user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:27:26 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:27:42 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-158-1-92-149.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:30:44 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:32:25 ska` [~user@124.157.214.197] has joined #lisp 07:33:53 gigamonkey: if you could call me one, I guess. I haven't done much graphics lately, I'm actually doing more in Illustrator and InDesign lately :D 07:34:02 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75762f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:49 ramus [~ramus@99.23.139.148] has joined #lisp 07:35:45 bytecolor: if you want a difficult language to learn, I don't think Haskell fits the bill... it requires good reading materials and time, though 07:36:24 p_l: what *does* fit the bill? 07:37:02 nothing occurs to me as something I'd call an outright *difficult* language, except insofar as many can be limiting. 07:37:45 p_l: maybe later. I've hit my Gimp headbanging quota for the night. Thanks though. 07:38:04 -!- xinming [~hyy@125.109.247.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:38:18 xinming [~hyy@122.238.65.37] has joined #lisp 07:42:25 -!- gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-76-254-23-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:43:10 kwinz3_ [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 07:43:30 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:46:39 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:30 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:58:24 Ralith: hmm... efficient IA-64 assembly? :) 07:58:43 or maybe not, IA-64 is rather explicit... 08:00:00 I suspect some stuff like TECO might be hard 08:03:08 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:08:23 sys360 JCL comes to mind, not a language though 08:08:55 or is it? heh 08:09:17 Axius [~hi@92.85.221.43] has joined #lisp 08:09:43 -!- Axius [~hi@92.85.221.43] has quit [Client Quit] 08:12:59 I found: http://learnyouahaskell.com Something even a mere mortal like myself can follow ;) ... although it won't currently load @#$@@!! 08:15:26 Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 08:18:09 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-092-075-034-116.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:38 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 08:20:47 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 08:21:28 -!- kwinz3_ [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:22:00 JCL wasn't as hard as TECO, IMO 08:22:07 1 08:22:23 *easyE* begs your pardon. 08:22:38 http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/dantes-internet.jpg 08:24:51 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:24:54 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:25:42 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 08:25:50 -!- easyE is now known as easyE_ 08:26:03 -!- easyE_ is now known as easyE 08:32:17 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-092-075-034-116.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 08:34:07 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:37:04 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:42:35 freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:45:26 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:46:39 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:19 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.19.113.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 08:54:21 p_l: besides, if we're allows to specify styles (i.e. *efficient* IA-64 asm), one might propose, say, efficient ruby. 08:55:38 Morbeo [myrlochar@91.92.170.132] has joined #lisp 09:00:52 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:02:23 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 09:03:13 -!- ska` [~user@124.157.214.197] has left #lisp 09:03:14 sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-31-101.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:05:29 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-128-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:05:43 Ralith: Efficient ruby is more understandable, except for some implementation-specific stuff that is truly arcane in every language 09:06:09 IA-64 is remarkably non-arcane at assembler level, just frustrating for compilers ;-) 09:09:14 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:10:34 p_l: I misspoke; *performant* ruby. 09:10:52 also 09:11:03 -!- lpolzer_ [~lpolzer@dslb-088-073-254-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:11:04 why's I-64 asm hard to compile? 09:13:15 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 09:14:53 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 09:16:37 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:18:18 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:21:18 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:22:55 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:24:20 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:25:13 mega1 [~quassel@53d82511.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:25:37 -!- crod [~cmell@87.112.7.127.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:28:56 Adlai [~adlai@93-172-116-128.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 09:28:56 -!- Adlai [~adlai@93-172-116-128.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Changing host] 09:28:56 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:30:56 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:31:15 yCrazyEdd [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:32:49 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:32:50 -!- yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy 09:34:52 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:48:06 ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:52:19 Ralith: IA-64 doesn't have branch prediction while having deep pipelines 09:52:36 also, the separate pipelines are directly programmed 09:52:43 p_l: I'm afraid the specific implications of that are a bit over my head. 09:53:48 Ralith: basically, a cpu with branch prediction will try to predict possible branch target, possibly pre-executing them in order to avoid pipeline stall (a case where you have to empty the pipeline and possibly wait extra time to load data into cache) 09:54:26 and how does this effect compilers? 09:54:28 Ralith: IA-64 only has branch hints (i.e. branch instruction has a flag informing the cpu if the branch is probable or not) 09:55:08 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:55:21 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:55:42 Also, code on IA-64 is basically like writing code for three separate execution units, with different capabilities (because pipelines aren't scheduled by cpu) 09:56:04 Ralith: it makes "optimizing compiler" an effing hard thing to make :) 09:56:08 I thought ASM was more or less linearly mapped onto opcodes; I guess this isn't the case? 09:56:19 oh, I suppose optimizing could complicate that. 09:56:25 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:56:29 For one thing, a compiler may have more information about the program allowing it to better predict the branch, but on another hand it can do it only at compilation time, while the processor could keep statistics at run-time. 09:56:29 Indeed, this should make writing a compiler for IA-64 much more "interesting" :-) 09:57:03 Ralith: in case of IA-64, assembly can be quite easy, as long as you get around the fact that you need three instructions per package and you might need to include explicit bundle breaks 09:57:04 Ralith: this hasn't been the case for a long time now. 09:57:12 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-8-254.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:57:30 -!- konr [~user@189.0.31.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:57:30 That is, the opcodes are re-interpreted and compiled into efficient microcode in most high end processors. 09:57:39 Ralith: afaik only certain RISC systems linearly map into opcodes 09:57:57 huh. okay. 09:58:04 I see I need to study the low level a bit more. 09:58:56 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:59:14 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 09:59:15 Ralith: the ix86 is just a virtual machine implemented in hardware ;-) 09:59:32 -!- ak70` [~user@85.232.201.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:00:20 Ralith: for example, an equivalent compiler on Alpha might be more interested about interleaving load-store instructions and integer with floating point and good placement of cache control calls, while a mispredicted branch on IA-64 costs a *lot* 10:02:49 (as other CPUs can investigate data in registers to better predict the branch) 10:03:00 integer and FP math are evaluated simultaneously? 10:03:23 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-12-213.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:23 (when correcly interleaved) 10:04:08 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:23 Ralith: even my old EV45 has separate integer and floating point pipelines, with separate register sets 10:05:19 later models had separate load-store/misc pipeline(s) to go with multiple integer and floating point pipelines 10:05:53 for example, sometimes, you might have two FP pipelines, each used for different operations (like only one of them does division etc.) 10:06:22 so that's "yes?" 10:07:27 yes ^^; 10:07:50 in theory, on IA-64, one could probably interleave GC with other code... 10:08:01 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.139.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:08:33 though I suspect it could be bad on cache 10:11:49 interesting 10:11:52 thanks 10:15:06 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19:09 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 10:19:50 ramus [~ramus@99.23.142.160] has joined #lisp 10:22:33 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has joined #lisp 10:22:53 -!- saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:58 -!- beach` is now known as beach 10:25:17 G'day! 10:26:06 Hmmm. Why is (pathname-name #p"...") ".."? 10:27:01 easyE: what should it be? 10:27:12 "..." 10:27:26 Because (namestring #p"...") is "..." 10:27:26 why? 10:27:40 I am missing the "point" of the extra dot. 10:27:41 do you know what pathname-name is? 10:27:43 -!- sepult` [~user@xdsl-87-78-31-101.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:27:52 clhs pathname-name 10:27:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pn_hos.htm 10:27:58 Isn't it an accessor for the name field of pathname 10:28:06 *easyE* reads 10:30:09 Ok, why isn't #p"..." the same as (make-pathname :name "...")? 10:30:10 easyE, it looks like the last dot is getting interpreted as a separator between the name and the type 10:30:28 (pathname-type #p"...") => "" 10:30:36 Adlai: right. 10:30:50 *easyE* is primarily using SBCL as the reference here. 10:31:30 Adlai: ok, now I understand. I missed that pathname-type was not nil. 10:32:54 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:33:26 Would interpreting #p"..." as being the same as (make-pathname :name "...") be "against ANSI"? Or is pathname-type an implementation depedent detail? 10:36:11 Because that's how ABCL interprets #p"..." (or #p"......" for any number of periods. 10:36:54 prxq [~mommer@f050196102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:30 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:39:28 hi 10:39:35 kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at] has joined #lisp 10:40:36 Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:38 mega1_ [~quassel@3e70d10f.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:42:26 -!- mega1 [~quassel@53d82511.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:05:24 rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-91-88.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 11:06:54 bhairavi [~chandra_k@88-122-223-137.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:03 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-31-101.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:10:34 koeikim [koeikim@121.129.39.92] has joined #lisp 11:12:06 -!- bhairavi [~chandra_k@88-122-223-137.rev.libertysurf.net] has left #lisp 11:12:19 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:12:48 -!- dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:16:01 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:17:05 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:27:24 -!- drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:02 -!- WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:22 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 11:40:54 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has joined #lisp 11:49:09 -!- ThomasI [~thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Quit: Bye Bye!] 11:51:39 Alabaman [~badgerfac@81-226-253-54-no19.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:56:51 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 11:57:36 -!- alland [~thomas@ti0014a380-1092.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:58:37 iostres [~ivan@78-1-171-213.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:04:15 -!- mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]] 12:14:58 -!- spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-231-183.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:16:44 spacebat [~akhasha@ppp118-210-203-135.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:03 jp_larocque [jabber-irc@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 12:21:15 slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:58 drwho [~drwho@c-98-225-208-183.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:16 -!- koeikim [koeikim@121.129.39.92] has quit [Quit:   .] 12:34:31 Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:38:13 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:38:20 -!- slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:41:57 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:42:58 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@213162066157.public.t-mobile.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:45:40 deathdefineslife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 12:45:46 -!- deathdefineslife is now known as sayyestolife 12:46:57 Dodek [dodek@wikipedia/Dodek] has joined #lisp 12:49:47 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:33 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 12:57:35 mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 12:58:24 milanj [~milan@77.46.210.233] has joined #lisp 13:01:29 leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:01:40 hello all. 13:04:07 kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has joined #lisp 13:04:16 hi 13:09:16 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@222-154-179-4.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:09:36 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:10:08 -!- iostres [~ivan@78-1-171-213.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:10:11 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.142.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:16:07 leo2007 pasted "Code duplication" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95309 13:16:49 How to remove duplication in 95309? 13:17:48 use Delete key 13:18:34 the methods are specified on different classes 13:18:42 delete key will not do 13:19:17 why are they specified on different classes if their bodies are the same? 13:19:46 dlowe [~dlowe@12.154.28.10] has joined #lisp 13:22:25 do you mean use defun instead of defmethod? 13:23:26 you can specialize on a superclass 13:23:35 WOG [~OsamaBinW@66-168-47-22.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:24:47 I have thought of that but the superclass is too general, it is GSLL::CALLBACK-INCLUDED. 13:25:19 you can also specialize on mix-in 13:25:26 you can also specialize on T 13:25:50 Dodek: could you elaborate? 13:26:03 stassats`: what's the point in doing that? 13:26:17 leo2007: no code duplication? 13:26:26 perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #lisp 13:26:29 leo2007: create an empty class, make your both classes inherit from it 13:26:39 and specialize on that empty class 13:27:00 Dodek: thanks. Does something like this happen often? 13:27:47 not really; i prefer to design my system so that i don't need to do it. 13:30:10 ramus [~ramus@99.23.128.175] has joined #lisp 13:30:27 Fullma [~fullma@LAubervilliers-153-53-30-161.w217-128.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:34:45 slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 13:34:52 there's seems to be a minor problem in slime. See this image: http://imagebin.org/85603 13:35:16 the mode line has two {qdsoa ccl}'s 13:40:15 wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:53 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 13:43:16 -!- lukjad86 is now known as ShadowChild 13:43:36 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440197.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:44:51 Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:12 what's the way in a structure's print-object to have it display the object's pointer? 13:45:34 can't find it; I used it before somewhere 13:45:47 -!- ShadowChild is now known as lukjad86 13:45:55 Phoodus: print-unreadable-object with :identity t? 13:45:57 clhs p-u-o 13:45:57 PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm 13:46:06 ok, thanks 13:46:17 *Phoodus* is waiting for firefox to restart :-P 13:46:44 FF is really crumbling under its own weight lately (or maybe it's just Flash's weight, who knows) 13:47:01 what external-format should I specify to flexi streams if I want a binary stream? (External library uses flexi, so I can't go without it) 13:47:02 ignotus, memo from gigamonkey: Did you ever notice that the time zone argument to decode-universal-time is a rational between -24 and 24. So you can't use 5.75 but you can use (rational 5.75) or (+ 5 3/4) or 23/4. 13:55:20 stassats`: do you know how to fix this? http://imagebin.org/85603 13:56:41 leo2007: unless you provide more detail, remove offending part in gimp 13:59:07 ok, i see it only in macroexpansion, no more details needed 13:59:17 stassats`: ;) 13:59:35 any macro-expand shows the bug. 14:00:31 kenpp [~kenpp@188-222-117-86.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:01:50 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:02:17 -!- Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-61-82-250-66-98.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:02:30 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:22 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:51 -!- bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:23 jordyd [~jordyd@99-177-65-75.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:34 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@net-93-144-91-88.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:06:46 bdowning [~bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:42 -!- perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Quit: A cow. A trampoline. Together they fight crime!] 14:11:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216-171-189-244.northland.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:13:12 attila_lendvai [~ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:14:54 -!- wlr [~walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:15:10 Nshag [~shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-31-145.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:28 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:15:35 -!- Dawgmatix_ [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:17:41 splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:17:42 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:45 morning 14:17:52 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:18:30 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:11 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0832.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:20:43 demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-211-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:15 demmeln1 [~Adium@dslb-094-216-211-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:15 -!- demmeln [~Adium@dslb-094-216-211-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:01 -!- demmeln1 [~Adium@dslb-094-216-211-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 14:22:28 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:28:08 -!- slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:28:25 davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:38 davazp` [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:19 -!- davazp` [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:29 -!- davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:33:54 davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:07 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:35:18 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 14:37:44 leo2007: fix committed in CVS. 14:38:54 quack_ [~quack@bl3-200-49.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:39:07 -!- quack_ [~quack@bl3-200-49.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 14:39:20 quack_ [~quack@213.13.200.49] has joined #lisp 14:40:11 stassats`: cvs up -dP does not show it yet. 14:40:42 you should know that anonymous cvs on cl.net lags 15 minutes behind 14:41:31 tcr1 [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:06 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-123-60.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:23 -!- pjb [~t@194.Red-79-149-143.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:31 pjb [~t@194.Red-79-149-143.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:18 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:49:03 stassats`: thanks for the fix. 14:49:22 leo2007: thanks for the report 14:50:25 swank-ccl.lisp lists some of the things that don't work under ccl. Are those still true? 14:52:58 test suite works for me 14:53:30 slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:48 that's good. Do you think the comments in that file can be updated? 14:56:25 first part before "Things that work:" is out of date 14:56:40 i'd delete the whole comment 14:59:15 stassats`: I don't know much about the internals of the backends. But the file for sbcl is much longer than ccl's. Does that mean more features are supported in sbcl? 15:00:24 sbcl backend has more features, but not that much 15:02:39 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 15:03:11 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@12.154.28.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:10:48 minion: memo? 15:10:49 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``memo''. 15:11:14 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:11:25 minion: help memo 15:11:26 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 15:13:02 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:42 mov esi, edx 15:15:45 mov edx, esi 15:15:56 great peephole optimization there, SBCL :-P 15:16:10 (unless that has some side effect I'm unaware of) 15:16:10 there is none 15:16:19 well, that would explain it then ;) 15:16:57 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:17:45 minion: memo for tmh: When using lisp-unit, if one of the functions issues a warning (run-tests) does not print the test results. for example in http://paste.lisp.org/display/95310, qdsoa::integrate-optical-power generates a warning when the algorithm is not making progress, at the end of (run-tests), only that warning is printed and nothing is from lisp-units. 15:17:45 Remembered. I'll tell tmh when he/she/it next speaks. 15:19:10 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 15:19:26 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-16-250.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:55 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:01 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:21:02 carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.2] has joined #lisp 15:21:27 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:32 I haven't found a good solution for http://paste.lisp.org/display/95309 15:22:20 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 15:22:26 dalkvist [~cairdazar@hd5e24dca.gavlegardarna.gavle.to] has joined #lisp 15:23:44 -!- milanj [~milan@77.46.210.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:24:01 leo2007: why don't you fix a real problem instead? 15:24:32 you can't specialize on superclass because the superclass is too general 15:24:45 why don't you create a more specific superclass? 15:25:28 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:25:29 leo2007: Break out the body into a separate function called from both methods. 15:26:48 ak70 [~ak70@85.232.201.18] has joined #lisp 15:26:58 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.103] has joined #lisp 15:30:02 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:32:42 beach annotated #95309 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95309#1 15:33:08 leo2007: see the annotation. 15:33:57 dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:54 beach: thanks. 15:35:01 no problem 15:35:09 Dodek: the classes are from another package GSLL. 15:37:04 moah [~gnu@dslb-188-100-153-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:44 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.2] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 15:38:21 airolson_ [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:21 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:38:21 -!- airolson_ is now known as airolson 15:40:16 airolson_ [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:16 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:16 -!- airolson_ is now known as airolson 15:41:18 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:49 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:27 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:45:28 -!- jp_larocque [jabber-irc@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 15:50:32 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 15:52:37 YamNad [~YamNad1@91.84.41.221] has joined #lisp 15:53:11 tcr1: any feedback on sb-synchronised yet? 15:57:09 dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:24 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-72-228-72-196.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:05:30 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 16:06:45 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:07:55 -!- YamNad [~YamNad1@91.84.41.221] has quit [] 16:09:46 -!- slaker [~slaker@cpc3-seve13-0-0-cust106.popl.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:10:19 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-25-9-227.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 16:10:24 dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:11:18 jmbr [~jmbr@58.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:14:49 gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:01 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:16:09 dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:02 -!- SandGorgon_ [~OmNomNomO@75-92-29-226.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:18:57 -!- kwinz3 [~kwinz@85.125.183.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:19:46 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-8-254.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:21:25 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:25:49 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:17 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-8-254.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:26:21 I am using loop to get the first n elements of a list. Is there a standard function that directly does that? 16:26:25 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:26:55 clhs subseq 16:26:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 16:27:00 subseq? 16:27:12 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 16:28:08 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-188-100-153-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:28:18 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-43-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:34:35 herbieB: CL is a OO language. Lists and vectors are subclasses of sequence. 16:34:49 therefore any method that works on sequence will work also on lists and vectors. 16:34:56 (and strings are subclasses of vector). 16:34:57 pjb: Oh, no, I was answering leo's question :P 16:35:12 s/herbieB/leo2007/ sorry. 16:35:30 pjb: Ooh. 16:35:46 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-8-254.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:36:00 This Saturday seems to be hard on everybody :-) 16:41:05 -!- quack_ [~quack@213.13.200.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:43:19 moah [~gnu@188.109.121.186] has joined #lisp 16:45:32 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:00 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:17 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:50:36 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:51:04 carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.131] has joined #lisp 16:51:10 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:51:36 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:23 airolson_ [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:46 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:47 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:52:47 -!- airolson_ is now known as airolson 16:53:06 pjb: thanks. I actually looked at subseq before using loop. I don't know why I dismissed it. 16:54:24 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:54:24 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 16:57:29 hi pkhuong. You mean your stuff? No I haven't looked at it since. Maybe tomorrow. 16:57:32 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 16:59:17 I've been working on ECL's slime integration over the past days when I had some time 17:00:13 I also want to do some sbcl hacking before its next release 17:01:06 the hang due to call-with-packages is annoying, and the error catching during compile-time-too, too 17:05:28 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:59 gonzojive [~red@condi.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:06:29 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 17:07:16 tcr: ...and how's the progress on the ECL integration? 17:08:49 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:05 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:10:02 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:10:03 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:07 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:06 quack [~quack@81.193.89.58] has joined #lisp 17:12:08 -!- Reaver1 [~Joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:12:08 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:13:45 tcr: k. I'll see about switching to upgradable r/w locks. 17:14:18 anyone here has looked into the generic arithmetic package of Prof. Fateman? 17:15:22 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 17:16:55 prxq: I'll spend some collaborative hack session next week with juanjo 17:17:23 pkhuong: What's upgradable in this context? 17:17:34 you can upgrade read locks to write ones. 17:17:53 Common use case? 17:17:58 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:18:06 SELECT FOR UPDATE (: 17:18:48 You are not allowed to speak here until I see a posting on planet.lisp 17:19:06 any recommendations for library that will indent Common Lisp code that is written in Common Lisp? 17:19:08 mmmmmmm mmmmm mmmmmmmmm 17:19:22 I'll tell your mother what a slacker you are 17:19:34 tcr: test-and-set operations. You grab a write lock only if needed, thus allowing more parallelism. 17:19:57 clhs pprint 17:19:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm 17:20:05 gonzojive: It comes with CL 17:21:11 airolson [~airolson@CPE000ae6922d9c-CM001cea397dac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:21 dnolen_ [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:54 antifuchs: I think I asked that already, but is there a tool to view just the history of a code fragment? (git) 17:23:18 git annotate shows you the last revision that changed that fragment 17:23:33 sure but I'd like to browse history 17:23:46 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:23:46 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 17:23:49 -!- ak70 [~ak70@85.232.201.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:23:55 I don't know about other platforms and editors, but the "git" bundle in textmate allows you to go through all the revisions that modified a file and see the fragment you're interested in change 17:24:10 without that, it's a very manual process 17:24:36 tcr, in gitk, you can right-click a line in the bottom-left window and view the commit that introduced it 17:24:45 if there's no emacs lisp code to do that yet, I hope somebody writes it soon (: 17:24:45 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:25:07 dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:16 gonzojive pasted "How to capture literal & read result" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95315 17:30:19 thanks for kicking me, tcr. I've published the post now 17:30:25 JonSmith [~jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:42 -!- mgr [~mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:31:44 erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:31:46 i want a reader macro to capture the result of a call to READ and the raw input that READ ate 17:32:36 hm why is that file-position line invalid? 17:32:54 can't setf file-position 17:33:07 clhs file-position 17:33:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_p.htm 17:33:15 you need to give it a second argument 17:33:27 ah, oops :) thanks 17:34:12 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:34:38 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:35:03 -!- tmitt_ is now known as tmitt 17:35:04 btw, I think you need to pass a recursive T to read functions when you use them in readmacros, although I'm not sure whether it's always necessary 17:35:28 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.colc.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:33 marioxcc [~user@200.92.16.252] has joined #lisp 17:36:06 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:42 -!- erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:39:28 tcr: I've made a wiki page for the meeting: http://metalab.at/wiki/First_International_Informal_Vienna_Lispmeet 17:40:33 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:40:47 there was some metalab hacker in here yesterday 17:40:54 oho 17:41:41 antifuchs: That's not entirely right your blog posting 17:41:52 antifuchs: not all who I sent mail to confirmed to come 17:41:53 oops? 17:41:57 ok 17:42:05 mega, jsnell, attila, levente haven't 17:42:32 through the power of rumors, I was trying to push them to come (: 17:42:40 I'll update the post accordingly 17:44:01 I think you shouldn't mention anyone in the headline, it's unfair 17:44:27 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-123-60.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:44:27 the berlin lisp meet can, too (: 17:44:39 but if you're uncomfortable with it, I'll remove the names, sure (: 17:45:13 well in that case, luke and edi are people who come to the (otherwise regularly held) berlin meeting 17:45:25 so they're the "non-regulars" 17:46:02 If you want a punch line, say something about "Thanks to Sb-studio, the maker of ..." :-) 17:46:14 hah 17:47:00 Thanks to SB-Studio, harming the software industry since 2004" :-) 17:47:11 (pulled the year out of the blue) 17:47:46 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:48:09 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has joined #lisp 17:48:36 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:39 excellent idea 17:48:55 Adlai [~adlai@93-172-116-128.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:48:56 -!- Adlai [~adlai@93-172-116-128.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Changing host] 17:48:56 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:50:04 there, done (: 17:53:34 erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:54:42 So who's bringing the recording gear (to immortalise FIIVL)? 17:56:12 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:56:31 varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:58:10 antifuchs: there's still 9 confirmed 17:58:22 -!- oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:59:23 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ool-18bc2fa9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 17:59:34 -!- erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:00:15 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 18:00:37 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 18:02:51 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-123-60.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:59 l0stman [~l0stman@freedsl-2.blueline.mg] has joined #lisp 18:05:31 oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:20 drewc [~drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 18:06:59 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:01 gigamonkey [~gigamonke@adsl-99-24-217-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:09 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:10:11 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 18:10:24 -!- oem-fg [~oem@c-71-61-187-35.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:10:35 kami``` [~user@p5B20FA50.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:54 -!- kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:37 Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-124-223.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:14:55 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:16:10 erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:16:55 how can I format a number with leading zeros? I always forget that:-/ 18:17:02 2 => "002" 18:18:04 leo2007 pasted "format recipe" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95317 18:18:47 I want to use format to print a lst and I want it to have X1=.., X2=.., is this directly possible in format? 18:18:54 see 95317 18:19:21 -!- varjagg [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:20:19 ~2,'0d 18:20:19 ah 18:20:32 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:20:35 smithzv [~smithzv@c-24-9-11-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:05 Over here we call lists lists 18:25:07 madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 18:25:16 Younder [~jthing@75.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:26:29 -!- porcelina [~quassel@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:50 -!- erjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:31:57 Fare [~Fare@c-24-218-127-11.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:01 leo2007: (format t "~:{X~A=~A~:^, ~}" (loop for index from 1 for i in list collect (list index i))) 18:32:43 ignotus: is that for me? 18:33:01 leo2007: no 18:33:48 -!- Kolyan [~nartamono@95-27-124-223.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [] 18:33:58 leadnose: nope 18:34:03 leo2007* 18:35:03 has anyone looked at interface-passing style? 18:35:57 Nope you should have included an example 18:36:08 I did 18:36:16 I linked to the code in my repo 18:36:24 (which code has changed since... updating...) 18:36:41 perdix [~perdix@dslb-088-071-199-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:41 -!- perdix [~perdix@dslb-088-071-199-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:36:41 perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #lisp 18:36:42 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-3-162.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 18:36:56 That's an application of it, not an example for it 18:37:38 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.128.175] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:38:29 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:38:35 -!- quack [~quack@81.193.89.58] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 18:38:35 what would an example be? hum. 18:39:07 Just some minimal expression of what you mean by pseudo-ish code 18:41:05 i'm quite interested in the patricia tries as i made some in lisp once 18:41:08 stassats`: thank you for that 18:43:10 quack [~quack@81.193.89.58] has joined #lisp 18:44:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@wlan-gw.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: home] 18:45:43 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:05 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 18:47:51 dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:06 Fare: preferably something that doesn't require a sophisticated understanding of the domain as well as the application. 18:49:11 What's the advantage of passing *one* explicit interface around, compared to passing a vtable around? 18:51:12 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:51:30 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:51:34 what about this paragraph? 18:51:35 For instance, given an interface i that implements some kind of pure functional maps, you can lookup a key k in that map m with (pf:lookup i m k) independently from that map being a function, tree, a hash-table, a trie, or whatever clever thing the user came up with. You can create interfaces from other interfaces, such as (pf: eq:) which will create a interface for maps as association lists using equal as their equality predic 18:51:36 ate. Interfaces can take functions, numbers, etc., as parameters. You can implement order domains as parametrized by a string-lessp-like comparison predicate or by a strcmp-like function. You could have have n,m-btrees, etc. 18:52:04 pkhuong, 1- purity, 2- the vtable is associated with the family of algorithm, not with individual pieces of data. 18:52:15 your data can be cons cells, fixnums, etc. 18:52:20 Fare: a lisppaste would be nicer 18:52:41 Fare: same with an explicit vtable. 18:52:54 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:53:01 pkhuong, in a way, an interface IS an explicit vtable. Or a type class. Or whatever you want. 18:53:34 Yeah. Pretty mjch my exact point. Are you using CLOS for anything more than reimplementing typeclasses? 18:53:42 pkhuong, once again, I think we agree. 18:54:09 Fare: I agree with tcr and splittist, a small example that doesn't hinge on you understanding the problem domain and being acutely aware of other approaches and their problems would be very helpful 18:54:13 grouzen [~grouzen@91.214.124.2] has joined #lisp 18:54:15 Do you use the extensibility of multiple dispatch, or would single dispatch on the interface and pattern matching for the rest work as well? 18:54:21 Nope. Except that by making them explicit, you can overcome the "principal type class" issue of type-inference based implicit type classes. 18:55:10 i.e. the very same cons cells can be a node in a binary tree or an element of an alist, depending on the interface 18:55:35 Fare: I think the best way to describe this is to show how you've untangled the physical representation of the data from its meaning (method dispatch). 18:55:43 I probably should delete the trie-branch class and use cons cells, as an example. 18:55:47 more agreement (: 18:55:55 doing it right now... 18:56:25 -!- b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:56:37 oh no, not doing it, because I'm subclassing it for full-trie-branch. 18:56:55 yeah, another clever optimization :) 18:57:52 You *can* use multiple dispatch, but I didn't need it in the simple algorithms of the current library. I did use multiple inheritance a lot, however. 18:58:11 MI in the interfaces or in the data structures? 18:58:21 both 18:58:39 Fare: sure, you *could*. Is it ever/frequently enough needed? 18:58:43 I can see how multiple dispatch can be great though, and I could have used it in some cases. 18:58:55 depends -- it would have made some of my code more extensible 18:59:07 dlowe [~dlowe@m6d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:38 but in these particular algorithms, I didn't need this kind of extensibility. 19:00:12 I seldom use multiple-dispatch. But when I do, man I'm glad it's there. 19:00:20 I think I have a good example: two implementations of sets of integers, one using integers as bitmaps, the other tuples of integers. 19:00:36 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:25 sure. And another one as big-endian patricia tries mapping integers to the unit type. 19:03:53 and in the latter case, using multiple dispatch instead of what I did would allow to easily add an optimization to my patricia trie implementation in the case the target type is unit. 19:04:48 i.e. you could short-circuit membership for full subtrees. 19:10:38 ikki [~ikki@189.247.6.203] has joined #lisp 19:11:55 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 19:14:08 *drewc* is excited about the idea of Tarver's K-Lambda 19:16:16 summary for the uninformed? 19:16:40 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:03 tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:06 pkhuong pasted "Interface-passing style for sets" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95321 19:17:31 tcr: Qi II on to of lisp 1.5 19:17:36 on top 19:17:38 tcr: UNCOL for Qi. 19:18:18 K-lamda is the CL subset that Qi compiles to, essentially. 19:18:26 lambda* 19:19:05 but. more importantly IMO, it's the first attempt at a slimmed down 'core' LISP since, well, ever. 19:19:51 drewc: ... scheme? 19:20:22 lisp500? 19:20:35 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:47 pkhuong: scheme is not LISP! 19:20:54 minimal compilation reducing to function calls and special operators? 19:21:16 pjb: yeah, there's that... only you get a different K-lambda on every implementation 19:21:59 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-159-155.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:00 pkhuong: okay, and what is the advantage of doing it this way instead of specialising on (set bitmap-set) directly? 19:22:15 strangely, the k-lambda I get with Qi are not the k-lambda I get with my program... 19:22:57 mathrick: eh? 19:23:19 pkhuong: i keep mentioning contextl in connection with interface-passing style... layered functions are almost the perfect implementation tool for this. 19:23:32 drewc: except when dynamic scoping isn't what you want. 19:23:33 pkhuong: what does that buy me compared to (defmethod adjoin ((set bitmap-set) item) ...) 19:24:07 mathrick: one interface interprets integers as bitmaps, the other as singletons. 19:24:49 pkhuong: i should show you my lexical contextl hacks :) 19:25:12 'compile time contextl' might be the better name. 19:26:15 if tfb were here he'd say that dynamic scope at compile-time maps nicely to lexical scope at runtime 19:26:34 pkhuong: yeah, but I don't quite see when you'd want to jump between one and the other. I can't just take random bytes and reinterpret them arbitrarily; or rather we have that already and it's called C 19:27:12 Krystof: One of the things I learned while working with codewalkers (: 19:28:09 mathrick: that's not the point. The point is that, in some part of my program, I want to use integers-as-sets, and in another, I want to use sequences-as-sets. 19:28:53 pkhuong: and why is (make-instance 'sequence-set) insufficient? 19:28:57 *Not* jumping between one and the other is exactly why we need to dispatch on the interface; otherwise CLOS will only let you dispatch on the physical representation, conflating integers-as-sets and sequences-as-sets. 19:29:04 mathrick: try reading until the end. 19:29:04 ah 19:29:37 *integers-as-sets and integers-as-singletons [in sequences-as-sets]. 19:29:42 pkhuong: I didn't know it wasn't the end yet :) 19:30:47 Krystof: yeah, exactly! :) 19:30:50 pkhuong: but yeah, I get it now, thanks 19:31:06 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:19 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-106.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:32:16 looks like a pipe, not a lambda 19:33:43 who's tfb? 19:34:02 thomas f burdick. 19:34:44 sometimes known here as cesco, because tfb is also sometimes tim f e bradshaw 19:36:21 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:36:59 speaking about multiple-dispatch, what about (defmethod pf:append (i fmap-simple-empty) (a null) b) b) ? 19:37:21 dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-23-25.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:31 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:34 -!- dnolen [~dnolen@pool-96-224-23-25.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:34 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:20 dnolen [~dnolen@ironport.museum.moma.org] has joined #lisp 19:39:27 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:40:24 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:06 Any slime users - do you use contrib slime-indentation and slime-indentation-fu? Do they make (loop for nconc indent incorrectly for you? 19:41:07 should I use ref or get instead of lookup? 19:41:25 Specifically, type it in, nconc on the first line, put some code on the next line, then proactively tab it 19:41:34 Fare: probably not GET ;) 19:41:50 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:41:52 Modius: slime-indentation gets loop mostly right, but other stuff wrong 19:42:23 slime-indentation-fu does not exist anymore 19:42:25 should I use (values foundp &rest values) instead of (values value foundp) as a return type for lookup or ref ? 19:42:29 tcr: What's correct behavior for loop when you retab it? I get the weird behavior where it indents it nicely on enter, then indents further if I tab the line. 19:43:12 I don't use slime-indentation myself, sorry. 19:43:30 sounds like a bug 19:44:21 tcr: Yeah - if I make the next item a symbol it behaves one way (indents short) if a list form it indents it under the word nconc 19:44:40 Fare: will (foundp value &rest values) work? 19:44:58 Hmm - it seems to work for do, collect, append - this should be easier to track down than I thought 19:45:17 Fare: err... nm.. i don't know the context! :) 19:45:27 I mean (values value foundp) versus (apply #'values foundp values) 19:45:32 Modius: I'm not exactly sure what's wrong and what code it breaks with, please post a lisppaste 19:45:38 Yuuhi [benni@p5483DD74.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:50 mathrick: I'll track it down - I thought it was universal but it's only nconc 19:46:11 the context is giving a generic interface to containers that works uniformly when the contained type has 0 or multiple values. 19:46:12 Fare: (values value foundp more-values ...) seems more compatible with CL's handling of multiple values 19:46:20 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-196.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 19:46:29 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:53 pkhuong, kind of. It also sucks when the return type is nullary (i.e. unit type, i.e. a set rather than a map). 19:47:32 and since I'm not a drop-in replacement for gethash, anyway... 19:47:35 still. 19:47:40 return (t t) or (nil nil). 19:47:55 multiple-values are a bit of a crock in CL. 19:48:09 why? 19:48:15 I miss them in other languages 19:48:17 I suppose I'll stick to (values value foundp) 19:48:49 tcr: much better than no multiple values, but still feel cumbersome and expensive to use both at programmer-time and runtime. 19:48:56 tcr: it's funny (or more commonly frustrating) when you try to explain the benefits to someone who's never used them 19:49:03 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:49:24 in some way, ML tuples and currying feels more elegant. 19:49:39 but tuples can't be partially ignored, can they? 19:49:51 There's a niceness to them if the second/other values are usually less useful in lib design 19:49:57 that's the basic difference between multiple values and compound return type 19:49:58 The remainders in mod, floor, etc. 19:49:59 whatddya mean? fun (a,b,_) -> a+b ? 19:50:23 mathrick: one could imagine such a thing. 19:50:34 Fare: but fun a -> ... does something completely different than fun (a, _) -> ... 19:50:35 match floor x y with (r,_) -> ... 19:50:41 Some languages already convert singletons to their one item. 19:50:55 pkhuong: sure, internally CL has to do that too 19:51:01 but it's about the external interface 19:51:23 mathrick: no, CL isn't the same as ignoring tuples when one expects a single value. 19:51:28 You can ignore the significantly less valuable result portion. 19:51:31 You can pass around multiple values. 19:51:35 I'll stick to (values value foundp) because the usual case is that NIL is not in your value domain and you can ignore foundp 19:51:36 multiple values are more compatible with simple clients and old ones 19:51:38 *You can't 19:52:08 pkhuong: æh, and how's that different from fun a -> ... receiving a tuple? 19:52:14 it'll still do the wrong thing 19:52:24 with multiple values, at least it won't explode 19:52:34 mathrick: not if the primitive functions also handle tuples. 19:52:34 bah, s/different/some other word/ 19:52:39 if deconstructing was mandatory, scheme style, I'd use (foundp values...) 19:52:47 in ML, an option type. 19:52:53 pkhuong: what do you mean by primitive functions now? 19:53:07 mathrick: those that are defined by the specification or the implementation. 19:54:11 pkhuong: I don't think you can do that in any sensible way. You'd inevitably run into situations where you wanted to catch that but didn't, or the other way around 19:54:33 it's like trying to signal errors by return values in an int-valued function 19:54:34 Same with CL style multiple values. 19:55:13 mathrick, you think my containers should signal an exception when elements are not found? 19:55:16 pkhuong: but multiple values are qualitatively different from tuples. Implicit destructuring wouldn't be 19:55:30 Fare: I dunno, I'm not commenting on your code right now :) 19:55:59 I'm just arguing that multiple values are fundamentally different from returning tuples, no matter how well you mask them 19:56:01 Fare: buildapp has a feature cl-launch can steal, i think. 19:56:02 That does give tuples that can be passed around but are implicitly destructured. 19:56:05 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.183.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:56:07 Xach, which? 19:56:23 maybe we should have made the user interface more similar... 19:56:30 Fare: choose the initial function based on the name used to start the program 19:56:49 Fare: like e.g. busybox does, by bundling N unix utilities in one binary and symlinking to different names. 19:56:53 oh yeah. I was thinking this ought to have been a library function in some .asd 19:57:01 maybe in command-line-arguments.asd 19:57:05 pkhuong: and which bites you when you pass a tuple intending it to be a tuple. With CL, you just lose resolution, with implicit destructuring you'd get silently wrong code 19:57:13 wrong, but type-correct 19:57:16 ah yes 19:57:39 then in cl-launch you'd just -r command-line-arguments:start or something. 19:57:42 mathrick: no, we're just used to the idiosyncrasies of CL style multiple values. 19:57:43 Xach: that's a very useful thing, I'm gonna start using buildapp just for that I think 19:58:02 (let ((x (foo))) x) not being equivalent to (foo) is, at best, strange. 19:58:07 Xach: how do you access the argv0 in a semi-portable way, though? 19:58:31 I think it's not available in clisp 19:58:34 or maybe it is 19:59:00 Fare: oh, really? hmm. 19:59:14 pkhuong: I can see your point, but you'd still have to introduce a new type, say MVTuple, distinct from ordinary Tuple 19:59:25 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:59:25 as I see it anyways 20:00:02 perhaps bindings being implicitly multivalued in CL would've been a good thing 20:00:20 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:00:24 maybe. It remains that you can have tuples that are "partially ignored" without destructuring them as early as CL does. 20:00:32 but then you could go the other way and have everything leak extra values left and right, because most of the time you *don 20:00:36 't* want them 20:00:58 mathrick: do you worry about tail calls leaking multiple values? 20:01:44 gigamonkey: did you get an answer to your gimp question? 20:02:20 pkhuong: no, but that might be a bit like with hygiene -- it's not a problem because overwhelmingly it doesn't cause any actual problems due to packages and multiple namespaces. But if suddenly everything started leaking values instead of dropping them, it could be a problem 20:02:47 it'd certainly be different, I can't tell if better or worse 20:03:17 also, as a side effect, CL would be even more confusing for newbs :) 20:03:22 -!- splittist [~joe@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [] 20:03:38 Xach: but yes, in any case, we ought to have that. 20:04:02 iostres [~ivan@93-138-58-137.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 20:04:22 Xach: one additional problem with cl-launch is that depending on what implementation and strategy you choose, the arguments have to be gathered differently. 20:04:42 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:54 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-3-162.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:07:07 -!- davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:08:08 I moved my pure functional interfaces to package pf: or pure-functional: 20:08:26 should I move my stateful interfaces to package stateful: or sf: ? 20:12:17 klo1 [~klo1@h-38-140.A254.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:12:52 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:13:33 puchacz [~puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:14:50 I'd make the nickname pure: 20:14:57 Fare: i've been using fine grained packages like that recently.. i love it! 20:15:14 tcr: it's twice as many letters, though 20:15:22 foo-implementation, foo-api and foo-syntax -> all get merged into FOO 20:15:35 so pure: and stateful: ? 20:15:55 impure? 20:16:14 stateless: ? 20:16:27 ain't API design fun? 20:16:35 just give me package-local nicknames already. 20:16:52 should I avoid CL names as API functions to allow for easy :use, or should I not care? 20:16:59 -!- iostres [~ivan@93-138-58-137.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has left #lisp 20:17:18 Fare: if your package nickname is short enough, shadow! 20:17:32 that is foo:print vs foo-print, i prefer the former 20:17:36 shadow? 20:17:41 Wasn't it your complain about fset making its own sub-language? 20:17:48 Sounds like you're about to do the same 20:17:49 what's the relationship b/w shadow and short package nickname? 20:18:04 if it's short, you can explicitly qualify 20:18:10 ya 20:18:13 what he said 20:18:14 Fare: drewc means that you shouldn't worry about :USEing if the name is short. 20:18:17 tcr: so what do you advocate? prefixes everywhere? 20:18:21 stateful-hash-table ? 20:18:31 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 20:18:34 pkhuong, that's why I had pf: 20:18:52 (pure-append ... ) 20:18:56 I have no clue, but two or three letters acronyms just for the heck of it, I don't like 20:19:09 at least, PLT allows you to add and strip prefixes when you import stuff... 20:19:37 i like pure:foo and state:foo ... i think that's clear enough. 20:19:43 you kind of can do that in CL, too 20:19:44 of course, with grounded symbols as in CL, that's not possible 20:20:03 rename-package+unwind-protect in asdf:perform (mwahah) 20:20:04 state: instead of stateful: ? 20:20:32 Fare: yes, if you are planning to have name conflicts, as i would likely fully qualify the symbols in that case 20:20:51 the extra three letters does matter to me in that case... though it shouldn't 20:20:54 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:20:59 I don't know if I'm planning conflicts. I'm certainly planning conflicts between pure: and stateful: 20:21:10 but not sure if I'm planning conflicts with cl: 20:21:14 a case for (or perhaps again) impure is that then pure:foo would show both pure:foobar and impure:foobar when completing 20:21:30 pure:foo[tab] 20:21:48 that would be painful -- I make that a case against 20:22:12 i abstain 20:22:55 only when you use fuzzy completion, though 20:24:09 before I started on that interface-passing style thing, I felt like there could never be an "ultimate datastructure library" for CL 20:24:14 now I've changed my mind. 20:24:59 that and ptc.asd renewed my faith in CL as a viable platform for functional programming. 20:25:26 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:08 Fare: What's the library? 20:26:45 Modius: currently, just a few datastructures in fare-utils -- but they could be moved out of it. 20:28:12 the "ultimate" being important in that when you're looking for any datastructure, it would be great if you had a one-stop shop, and an obvious API in which to integrate w/o making everything incompatible with everything else. 20:28:25 Fare: I've had a pure hash in my heresy library for about a year now - that thing is the s**t. Someone needs to port a balanced RB tree or something. 20:28:44 Fare: The RB tree is quite elaborate (want a good pattern-matcher to port the Halskell source) 20:28:52 I wussed out and gave up 20:29:44 (The pure hash basically ripped off from Clojure's java version) 20:29:55 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:29:58 saikatc [~saikatc@c-71-202-153-244.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:12 Modius, fare-matcher exists, but is probably not "good" 20:32:22 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:32:32 Modius: we could benchmark mine and yours :) 20:33:03 RB as in red-black? 20:33:06 Yeah 20:33:13 is it better than AVL? 20:33:15 Mine was made to accept multiple additions/removals in one step 20:33:16 I did AVL 20:33:44 Fare: Dunno (on avl bs red-black-tree) 20:33:52 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@m6d5e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:34:11 jmbr_ [~jmbr@226.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:34:20 I didn't implement efficient tree append (yet) 20:34:46 for efficient append, I already have patricia trees (and I'm satisfied with requiring integer keys in that case) 20:35:00 varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:35:06 I don't know much about the AVL, just the Trie/Hash problem which I coded/modded. 20:35:07 -!- varjag [~eugene@226.119.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 20:35:22 I'm told avl has faster lookup and slower insert, which I thought was appropriate for a persistent data structure 20:35:28 -!- OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-106.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:35:31 and it was surprisingly easy to write 20:35:33 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@58.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:49 Were I comparing them, since speed was given up anyway, I'd take the one that had the most "shared" between similar trees. 20:35:50 only one method overridden as compared to vanilla binary trees 20:35:55 I'd assumed that's why everyone was using RB 20:36:10 maybe 20:36:54 avl seems to be more aggressive in its rebalancing indeed, meaning less sharing. 20:37:11 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 20:37:59 Trie/Hash ... yeah, I could have fast-append-hash-table... 20:38:12 I assumed that's what your map was 20:38:22 no, it's avl-tree of alists. 20:38:27 Oh 20:38:43 I should parameterize the containers for buckets and bucket-container... 20:39:10 yay for parametric polymorphism! 20:39:18 -!- kami``` [~user@p5B20FA50.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:39:26 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-74-68-154-7.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:39:39 THAT is why I like interface-passing style. I can have parametric polymorphism in Lisp. I was missing it from my ML days. 20:40:22 Fare: i use contextl for that :P 20:40:39 parametric polymorphism in contextl? 20:40:52 anything publicly available? 20:41:09 sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has joined #lisp 20:41:12 the only difference between interface passing style and layered functions is how one specifies the first argument to the GF 20:41:21 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-3-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:34 you specify it as a special variable? 20:41:46 so I have lexical scoping, you have dynamic scoping? 20:42:02 Fare: avl vs red-black is about insert vs lookup performance 20:42:07 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 20:42:20 and red-black is better to persist 20:42:31 ok, I'll do red-black too, then 20:42:33 Which in general gets the most sharing? 20:42:33 requires less shuffling around, i guess 20:42:45 Fare: red-black is far more complex to implement 20:42:48 this is going to come back to my 'compile time contextl', but yes, my 'interface' is dynamically scoped... it's in a special, and we hide the passing of that special. 20:43:28 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:43:29 what about directly doing Btrees? aren't red-black essentially isomorphic to 2,4-Btrees, anyway? 20:43:37 (2,3) 20:43:58 only it's not in a special by default, as contextl doesn't use special variables to implement dynamic scope 20:44:02 Wait, or maybe I mix that up with 2,3 20:44:02 Fare: just do avl-trees :) 20:44:04 Phooodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:04 erm 2,4 20:44:09 they are the simplest 20:44:14 I already did them 20:44:19 wahh 20:44:23 err, ahh 20:44:48 how about 2-3-4 -tree? :) 20:45:36 mega1 [~quassel@4d6f4a0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 20:45:59 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:15 -!- Phoodus [foo@97-124-127-114.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:47:38 I think I may do general B-trees some day, but I don't feel like doing a special case red-black tree. 20:47:38 Fare: wikipedia seems to say avl-tree is better for lookup 20:47:51 guaqua, that's what made me pick it 20:47:59 yeah 20:49:48 -!- mega1_ [~quassel@3e70d10f.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:50:07 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 20:51:06 hum. My CL-conflicting names are remove, append, count 20:51:21 I suppose I could rename them to suppress, merge, size and be done. 20:51:26 -!- klo1 [~klo1@h-38-140.A254.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:51:32 -!- hankhero1 [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:51:46 "reject"? 20:51:52 purge? 20:51:59 excise! 20:51:59 rimknat [~user@c-fef8e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:52:11 and add 20:52:39 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:52:46 ditch ? 20:52:51 exile, annex, population 20:52:54 drop? 20:53:02 nice. 20:53:15 369 Moby Thesaurus words for "remove" 20:53:19 (thanks, dict) 20:53:33 segregate, unite, census 20:54:27 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:55:04 -!- spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:55:10 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:41 I'm sure there's space for a programming language where everything is called "frob" 20:55:46 drop, retire, erase, excise, ditch, wipe 20:56:00 any preference? 20:56:05 hu.dwim:frob 20:56:13 Adlai: lol :) 20:56:15 maybe some hardboiled slang for good measure 20:56:16 (to remove an element from a pure map) 20:56:35 I like "drop" because it's short, but it sounds side-effectful 20:56:39 remmap 20:56:42 :D 20:57:00 remove-element-from-pure-map 20:57:06 pure:drop won't sound side-effectful 20:57:06 *drewc* is not helping 20:57:08 then again, so does "remove", if you haven't been warped and twisted by CL... 20:57:19 Fare, true 20:57:26 drop it like it's hot, then! 20:57:27 with-values-removed 20:57:36 (with-values-removed hash etc. . . .) 20:57:43 remove-gently 20:57:49 Adlai: my mother asked me to remove my feet from the coffee table, so i built her another coffee table and kept my feet off it :P 20:57:51 there's a good case for keeping the operation names to the standard ones, though 20:58:07 mom, you should have use DELETE if you meant DELETE! 20:58:15 i.e. search, insert, delete 20:58:31 Do I? 20:58:34 not lisp standard :) 20:58:36 *easyE* googles. 20:58:54 *easyE* 's mea culpa. 20:58:57 Fare: honestly, call it whatever you want and provide an sb-sequence implementation! 20:58:59 delete and search I can'tuse 20:59:14 insert is fine, though 20:59:23 i'd just shadow them 20:59:28 drewc, did the new coffee table share structure with the old one? 20:59:44 shadow is evil -- it means I'll have to shadow in each and every package that :use me 20:59:46 Adlai: it might have, but it was not guaranteed 20:59:48 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082C880.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:54 and maintain the list of things to shadow... yuck 21:00:01 Fare: :use is evil 21:00:22 I suppose that's what #.*shadow-cl-symbols-in-pure* is for, though 21:00:23 i'm 50/50 on this... 21:00:35 seangrove pasted "Why do you hang" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/95327 21:00:36 Fare, I think it's fine to conflict if you expect people to use the pure: prefix 21:00:49 Adlai, I'm not sure I do. 21:01:03 superannuate 21:01:10 i'd rather see foo:remove than foo-remove, but i'd rather see pure-data-structures:pure-remove than (:shadowing-import-from ...) 21:01:12 with CL you can avoid conflicts, but not with whatever other packages people use 21:01:37 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:01:37 ok, then I guess my vote is for drop 21:01:46 drewc: You pointed out that the behavior is undefined when the package is underfined...but I just want to start using hunchentoot :( 21:01:52 Not sure what I'm doing wrong here 21:01:58 I prefer short aliases to common packages. It makes sure I know where it is coming from and saves me typing. 21:02:29 OK for pure:drop 21:02:37 seangrove: have you programmed before? in 100% of the languages i have used, things have to be defined before you can run code that uses them :) 21:02:44 insert of append, merge 21:02:49 instead of append, merge 21:02:59 instead of count, size 21:03:02 Fare: sounds good to me 21:03:03 there we go 21:03:06 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082F437.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:52 drewc: Heh, I've programmed a bit ;) 21:03:58 But just not sure what I'm doing wrong here 21:04:13 insert of insert, instead? 21:04:16 s/undefined/not found 21:04:45 spoofy [~spoof@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 21:05:10 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 21:07:53 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 21:07:57 seangrove: hunchentoot is distributed as an ASDF system which includes a file in which a package is defined. you have to compile and load that system, and any sustems that depend on it, before attempting to use anything it defines.... 21:08:32 seangrove: i'm not entirely sure how you expect it to work otherwise. 21:08:44 minion: tell seangrove about asdf 21:08:45 seangrove: direct your attention towards asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 21:08:58 minion: tell seangrove about xach-asdf 21:08:59 seangrove: please look at xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 21:09:34 also http://l1sp.org/pcl/defpackage 21:11:17 seangrove: how do you expect it to work if you don't load hunchentoot? 21:11:24 seangrove: and you require ASDF, too 21:11:58 seangrove: (progn (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :hunchentoot) (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :cl-who)) 21:12:18 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:12:36 seangrove: and a hint : (defpackage hunchentoot ...) (defsystem hunchentoot...) (defvar hunchentoot ...) (defun hunchetoot ...) (defclass hunchentoot ...) (define-condition hunchentoot ... ) <---- all these make different things called 'hunchentoot'... notice the first two especially. 21:12:41 seangrove: may I ask what you loaded ASDF for if you had no intention of loading anything with it? 21:13:46 mathrick: because despite repeated assertions from me that packages and systems are different things, seangrove has decided to ignore that and cargo-cult something :P 21:13:54 -!- dv_ [~dv@83-64-248-68.inzersdorf.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:13:56 wedgeV [~wedge@adsl-69-232-231-189.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:57 right 21:14:14 well, #lisp is not responsible for damages caused by lack of thinking 21:18:39 seangrove: and also, how did you confuse error being reported in the debugger with hanging? SBCL happens to return a very explicit and clear error, and SLIME happens to present it in a very explicit debugger window 21:19:01 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 21:19:32 does it actually report an error? I figured it must, but gave benefit of the doubt.... my mistake :) 21:19:46 (there is no requirement that it report that error) 21:19:57 yeah, I checked because I didn't remember it hanging 21:19:58 jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet237.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #lisp 21:20:15 mathrick: I'm not following context to hard; but recent sbcl version introduced a lock which makes errors from package operation deadlock 21:20:20 and wanted to try, because frankly it'd be a rather cute, if useless, way of implementing "undefined" behaviour 21:20:35 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:20:37 tcr: ahh, that could be it indeed 21:20:43 drewc: I apologize for my ignorance 21:20:45 tcr: oh, that might be it 21:20:47 Will try to improve 21:20:57 I run 1.0.31, the paste is 1.0.35 21:21:03 seangrove: i gave you the same set of links yesterday.... try harder 21:21:13 tcr: deadlocking sounds like a rather poor course of action 21:21:26 what about find? 21:21:27 Really? 21:21:31 seangrove: have you programmed Java? Or python? 21:21:34 or search, or position... 21:21:34 I didn't see them, I apologized 21:21:40 I'll read through them now 21:21:41 locate ? 21:21:42 Ruby 21:21:48 and python...a bit of Java 21:21:59 I have no idea about how ruby modules work, besides "poorly" 21:22:08 -!- rimknat [~user@c-fef8e255.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: zZz] 21:22:34 seangrove: my mistake, i didn't give you the links directly. 21:22:42 -!- Edico [~Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:22:44 davazp [~user@33.Red-88-8-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:44 seangrove: anyway, it's like you specified an "import" clause without putting the module in the library path (ie. python path or CLASSPATH) 21:22:46 nearly everything in ruby works poorly from the sysadmin viewpoint 21:22:56 seangrove: ASDF is the thing that loads systems, making them available 21:23:16 mathrick: that is a horrible analogy.. pacakges have nothing to do with systems and now you're just confusing it 21:23:30 it's more like he's tried to subclass a class that has not been defined. 21:23:31 yeah, I'm trying to find a good way to backtrack now 21:23:50 minion: packages 21:23:50 packages: http://weitz.de/packages.html http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html http://flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 21:24:11 The first link is a good explanation about differences of packages, modules, systems 21:24:23 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet237.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit [Client Quit] 21:24:31 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:24:49 Heh, I should probably start with xach's article though 21:25:08 tcr: the last link is not :P 21:25:10 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@2002:62da:45b3:1234:21d:e0ff:fe00:f7ab] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@host146.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:19 after further analysis I should've said that it's totally not like Java or Python modules/packages, because these aren't objects in their runtime. Whereas CL package is more akin to a global variable, and as such needs to be defined explicitly, not just have the files placed somewhere 21:27:45 CL packages are too much like global variables 21:27:50 -!- toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:27:52 drewc: eh, I don't think it's a bad writeup 21:28:23 Adlai: yeah, it's annoying you can't have anonymous packages, and that they disappear when you unlink them from the namespace 21:28:25 mathrick: if you can stand the 'look how hard and bad cl packages are!' attitude and the fact that the author severly lacks in clue :) 21:28:47 should my trees contain only a datum from which another protocol extract key and value, or should my trees have key and value directly? :-/ 21:28:59 anybody who would write `BB` should have their writings, and head, criticaly examined :P 21:29:11 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483DD74.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:29:13 -!- sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-31-101.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:29:23 Fare: both? it seems like one is a specialization of the other. 21:29:23 drewc: I didn't get that impression. But it's true that CL packages leave a lot to be desired, and are a source of errors unheard of anywhere else 21:29:30 also what's BB? 21:29:39 how that, both? 21:30:21 Fare: FOO-TREE and KEY-VALUE-FOO-TREE ? 21:30:45 sepult [~user@xdsl-87-78-130-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:30:47 meh 21:30:53 or foo-tree, key-value-map and foo-tree-key-value-map 21:31:48 mathrick: http://www.flownet.com/ron/lisp/rg-utils.lisp <--- be afraid 21:31:56 with a generic function (update-node .... :defaults node) ? 21:32:09 -!- sayyestolife [~jot_n@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 21:33:21 -!- JonSmith [~jon@c-71-233-58-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:34:56 Fare: or (setf (get-node thing :default node) ...) 21:35:07 assuming we're on the same page 21:35:14 Eleanore [Eleanore@c-5e25e555.035-34-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:35:32 wait.. am i confused? 21:35:56 i think i am! :) 21:36:14 drewcy: fyi, http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3225312066723120@naggum.net.html and http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3208366436720427@naggum.net.html have additional info about rg/eg's relationship to the package system. 21:36:34 drewc, in the pure: package, setf is definitely non-kosher. 21:37:01 Fare: yeah, that was my immediate thought :) 21:37:02 Xach, have you read the complete Gospel of Erik ? 21:37:30 Fare: also, clhs has a default for setf gethash, but i can't imagine a good use for it. 21:37:31 Fare: Sometimes it feels like I've read most of it, but then I find new or rediscover old things 21:37:33 *Fare* wonders if the update generic should take an interface as argument... let's say it should. 21:37:56 it just evaluates it and throws away the value... how odd 21:38:04 (update node :left new-left :right new-right) 21:38:14 Xach: will read right now.. thanks! 21:38:14 drewc: (incf (gethash key hash 0)) 21:38:42 *Adlai* used that in code once! 21:38:42 drewc, the default of setf gethash is for symmetry with gethash and thus for modify-macros 21:39:08 pjb: I missed that in PLT Scheme until they added it recently 21:39:13 ahh, makes sense! 21:39:33 pjb: thanks :) 21:41:10 pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 21:41:39 nobody does reducto ad absurdum quite like Erik Naggum :) 21:41:55 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hoasnet-fe29dd00-202.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:42 reductio* 21:43:31 *Xach* is thinking of making a post-a-day feed for the naggum cll archive 21:43:47 just some random interesting-to-me article 21:44:58 Xach: you should... the illusion that naggum is on planet.lisp would be one i willingly suspend my disbelief for :) 21:45:21 dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:29 *Fare* wonders whether or not to imply a privileged type of object per interface, or not. 21:46:43 Maybe have a subclass of interface like that. 21:48:30 klo1 [~klo1@h-38-140.A254.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 21:48:35 (defclass () ()) 21:49:39 oh, not for planet lisp 21:50:14 *Fare* finds it useful to give the name of the intended superclass to the variable of a defgeneric 21:50:49 *Fare* refactors the API massively 21:50:53 HG` [~HG@xdslau181.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:50:59 Xach: well, in my lisp feed then... still, i'd like to see a collection of your favorite naggums, as i know you've read a lot of them 21:51:13 -!- bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:51:27 (lookup i map key) or (ref i map key) ? 21:51:45 all the naggums ever to be written have been written. How scary 21:52:01 Fare: i'd advocate for ref there 21:52:07 or iref actually 21:52:33 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslau181.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:53:29 why i? 21:53:33 interface? yuck 21:53:42 what next, hungarian notation? 21:53:50 a 21:53:53 sorry 21:54:00 yeah, interface... like a in aref 21:54:51 ref is fine too, but i already use it for generic reference :) 21:54:52 -!- klo1 [~klo1@h-38-140.A254.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:52 instead of append... join or merge? 21:55:52 iref is taken already by lisp500 21:56:07 *drewc* has to leave 21:56:32 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:56:45 klo1 [~klo1@h-38-140.A254.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 21:57:21 -!- klo1 [~klo1@h-38-140.A254.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:54 -!- Hun [~hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:43 woot! there's already a cl-mongo librar 22:00:27 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75762f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:03:14 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@python-software-foundation.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:04:00 -!- sebyte [~sebyte@213.229.74.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:27 Demosthenes: Yeah, I got a quarter of the way through implementing it before I found it :P 22:04:37 -!- lukjad86 is now known as aninsanelylongni 22:05:06 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe43fb00-66.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:05:16 -!- aninsanelylongni is now known as lukjad86 22:05:39 what does it mean that the clhs documentation says "Exceptional Situations: None." for string< and friends? 22:06:01 is it still ok to raise a condition on (string< "foo" "bar" :start1 -1) ? 22:06:33 yes 22:06:41 V-ille, I think that section describes exceptional situations which may occur even when arguments are of the types specified in the argument and result type section 22:07:34 ah, there's http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss332.htm 22:08:03 I'm curious - how would I get a list of files in a given directory? 22:08:24 minion, tell seangrove about cl-fad 22:08:24 seangrove: please look at cl-fad: CL-FAD is a portable pathname library based on code from Peter Seibel's book Practical Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cl-fad 22:08:38 direct link: http://weitz.de/cl-fad 22:09:58 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@90.73-240-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:10:04 seangrove: the standard CL:DIRECTORY might do what you need. 22:11:15 or it might not, and you'd need to use a wild pathname rather than just calling DIRECTORY with a directory's pathname 22:11:32 I can checkout fad first.. 22:11:48 toekutr [~toekutr@adsl-69-107-105-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:54 *Xach* has not yet tried fad, with all the normal stuff working fine for him 22:15:32 felideon [~felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:41 bigjust [~jcaratzas@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:01 what normal stuff? 22:16:25 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@adsl-69-232-231-189.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 22:21:34 Well, I'm still unsure about how asdf works really, so I'll try the normal stuff first 22:22:08 Also, I'll read the article on cliki again to get over my ignorance 22:23:47 Fare: filesystem functions in CL 22:24:14 *Xach* must migrate everything off livejournal and isn't looking forward to it 22:24:45 Xach: new blog ? 22:28:00 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:33:50 klo1 [~klo1@h-38-140.A254.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 22:34:30 Xach: have you tried DIRECTORY in CCL? Its behaviour is insane 22:36:09 fe[nl]ix: yeah. probably yet another homebrew. 22:36:31 the russian takeover of lj has made me not want to pay for it, and there are too many spammers too. 22:38:25 what takeover ? 22:39:26 It was three years ago. 22:39:29 was sold to a russian media company in 2007 22:39:40 -!- klo1 [~klo1@h-38-140.A254.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:40:20 -!- mega1 [~quassel@4d6f4a0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:32 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-47-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:40:40 mega1 [~quassel@4d6f4a0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:42:10 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-43-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:42:28 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-146-224.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:31 Hello all. 22:43:21 qamikaz [~alper@88.243.254.105] has joined #lisp 22:45:11 hokay, I need expert SBCL advice 22:45:16 -!- prxq [~mommer@f050196102.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:45:44 I'm binding a GObject library with CL-GTK2, and when I'm testing, in some situation it locks up when it shouldn't 22:45:49 something I suspect to be thread-related 22:46:01 now attaching to SBCL with gdb results in SBCL being killed 22:46:14 the question is, how the hell do I debug this? 22:46:32 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:46:52 and why does it die? I suspect it's got something to do with SBCL creatively using signal handlers to do memory management & friends, but that's just my guess 22:52:21 -!- gruseom [~daniel@S0106001217057777.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:49 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:53:57 -!- qamikaz [~alper@88.243.254.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:14 felideon [~felideon@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:24 -!- perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Quit: A cow. A trampoline. Together they fight crime!] 23:00:23 nyef: think we're commit ready on 63 bit fixnums now? 23:00:54 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02:38 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 23:04:13 C-c C-c stopped interrupting SBCL in slime 23:04:17 what the? 23:04:45 pkhuong: Actually, I'm thinking that it's late enough in the month that we shouldn't commit. 23:05:53 mathrick: Attaching gdb to SBCL causes it to be straight-up killed? That's odd. 23:06:42 dunkyp [~dunkyp@78-105-237-151.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:08:29 nyef: gdb loads symbols from all the foreign libs I have loaded, then sorta hangs, and when I press Enter, it says "ptrace: no such process" and indeed SBCL dies 23:09:03 also for whatever reason loading my sbcl image causes C-c C-c to stop working 23:09:06 How completely odd. 23:09:10 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:09:38 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:10:10 indeed 23:11:05 As far as threading goes, there are a couple potential problems. One is the library creating a new thread and using it to invoke a callback. 23:11:35 Another is simply violating a GTK thread affinity constraint. 23:11:37 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 23:11:48 Or, of course, a lock ordering problem. 23:12:13 mathrick: by my limited experience, SBCL really doesn't like being under ptrace() 23:12:22 -!- ichernetsky [~ichernets@195.222.64.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:12:35 nyef: how much more testing will it get next month? 23:12:36 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 23:12:54 nyef: I'm pretty careful about obeying the GTK+ thread affinity constraints, which is why it's so odd. The same thing done slightly differently works 23:13:09 pkhuong: It's more a question of having time to react if something is found prior to release. 23:13:34 Especially since I now have an obligation on my time for next week. 23:14:08 all right. 23:15:53 does LDB have any machinery for dealing with threads? 23:16:24 I'd be surprised if it has more than the most rudimentary support. 23:16:32 LDB is horrible junk. 23:16:54 -!- mega1 [~quassel@4d6f4a0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:17:14 *grumble* 23:17:20 OmniMancer [~OmniMance@122-57-2-106.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:17:22 it's so annoying 23:17:35 I have a bunch of failing code with no way to touch it from either side 23:17:52 pkhuong: As far as wider-fixnum-arrays.patch goes, the scavtab/sizetab thing is already in, as is the darwin x86-64-assem.S fix. The rest looks good at a casual browse, but the scav_lose and size_lose changes are arguably a separate change. 23:18:42 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:18:51 p_l: I'm actually more inclined to blame GDB than ptrace(). And one massive piece of evidence is that of running SBCL under UML, which is ptrace()-based. 23:19:36 -!- ragnul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:50 nyef: what's UML, besides a stupidly annoying formalese for diagrams? 23:20:55 User Mode Linux. 23:21:22 UML is actually more than diagrams. It has a data model, and (sorta) semantics. 23:21:27 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:52 nyef: agreed on scav_lose/size_lose. 23:22:17 And I think the scav_lose/size_lose changes could and possibly should go in this release. 23:22:27 nyef: UML is ptrace() based? 23:22:27 easyE: and also is complete junk 23:23:09 it'll make debugging GC errors easier. 23:23:55 p_l: Yes. The ptrace hook goes off before and after a syscall, so the syscall parameters can be changed including the syscall number (switch it out for getpid), then after the syscall is executed by the real kernel, emulate the actual behavior required. 23:24:05 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-171-37-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:08 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:28 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:25:22 hmmm... I'd rather expect a segment-based approach 23:25:37 p_l: By the same mechanism and a small pre-loaded memory segment, it can cause the process to execute arbitrary syscalls, such as mmap(). 23:26:30 p_l: Of course, after they got it working, they added PTRACE_SYSEMU, which stops at syscalls but doesn't actually execute them, saving a couple of round-trips for the syscall cancellation via getpid. 23:26:42 I think the manual should have a note about not doing (exactly) "thread apply all call backtrace_from_fp" on darwin (: 23:29:05 pkhuong: Let me guess... the exception-handler thread isn't a lisp thread, and there may be other non-lisp threads around as well, and they cause... problems when run through backtrace_from_fp? 23:29:12 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 23:29:37 Something about not having the pthread "specific" set up and thus causing a NULL pointer dereference? 23:30:27 Am I close? 23:31:16 something like that. At least on other platforms, we're not guaranteed to have a non-lisp thread. 23:32:20 nyef: somehow I prefer how L4 does such "embedding" :-/ 23:32:21 Put a sanity-check in backtrace_from_fp(), perhaps? 23:33:04 p_l: I had a couple of reasons to look into it, including testing linux binary emulation for a LispOS while running under linux. 23:33:49 nyef: in theory, if you grab access to L4 APIs from under L4/Linux, embedding suddenly becomes very easy... 23:34:37 could that be workable sandbox mechanism for e.g. a sbcl web repl? 23:35:03 Xach: Costly, TBH. 23:35:12 Xach: freebsd-style jails? 23:35:50 Xach: you mean the embedding trick with L4, or just the ptrace() stuff? 23:35:54 nyef: actually, no, it's even weirder. 23:36:40 p_l: just the ptrace stuff. 23:36:51 ah... pausing the signal handling thread might not be good. 23:38:08 nyef: how fast does a web repl have to be? :) 23:38:54 *p_l* will have to look into making an L4 port of SBCL... it would take mainly separating GC from SBCL into another process and changing OS-specific APIs... 23:40:13 Xach: The real question is how -many- web repls do you need at once? 23:40:33 p_l: Filesystem? 23:41:37 p_l: And there are a couple of things you may want to look at in that direction: SBCL-os and no-x86oid-assem.S. 23:42:01 nyef: probably a million 23:43:36 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 23:44:24 nyef: I could forward POSIX apis to Linux 23:45:07 nyef: the difference being that SBCL would actually have pagetable-level memory management :) 23:46:06 nyef: yeah. I think the only way to get it right, at least for the mach message handling thread, is to stop assuming the message handler never errors. 23:46:38 nyef: but I'll look into SBCL-os... who knows, I might be able to use it for next year's OS course 23:47:03 What I'm thinking is that we need to get our act together with respect to debugging in general. 23:47:05 -!- wvdschel [~wim@195.207.16.86.static.hosted.by.easyhost.be] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:47:11 necroforest [~jarred@pool-71-191-247-161.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:40 What we had was tolerable back in the single-thread era, but these days it's an embarrassment. 23:50:12 What would you change? 23:50:45 At bare minimum? Integrate against platform backtrace libraries. 23:51:14 Further than that? Separate debugger thread if not separate debugger -process-. 23:51:51 nyef: and better integration with platform's condition handling? :) 23:51:51 Beyond even that it starts to tie into the whole "deployment" story. 23:51:59 That too! 23:52:29 Before finding out about SEH I always wondered how exactly windows printed those messages... 23:52:31 wvdschel [~wim@78-20-14-180.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 23:52:45 Oh, wait, last time I tried that it didn't work out so well, and we have an open high-importance bug about it. 23:53:04 I wonder if it would be possible to port SEH/CHF-like stuff to Linux without breaking existing code 23:53:21 (lp#379472 if you're wondering.) 23:53:48 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:41 -!- quack [~quack@81.193.89.58] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 23:55:17 Oh, and I started trying to figure out if I could fix lp#309474, and I think it might actually be possible. 23:55:47 But I didn't have any usable references handy at the time I was looking at it. 23:58:14 -!- Eleanore [Eleanore@c-5e25e555.035-34-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:58:18 newfurniturey [~darkcida@74.93.195.210] has joined #lisp 23:58:39 -!- proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]